54. The 3-Second Rule and Your 3 Circle Sobriety Plan Redefined

In this episode, I’m joined by Jennifer Ginsberg, a Certified Sex Addiction Therapist. While most men have already heard about the “3-second-rule” and the “3 circles of sobriety”… they typically have not revisited these circles since being in early recovery. In this episode, Jennifer and I redefine sobriety so that it can be maintained for decades. Too often, sex addicts set up a recovery plan that is unsustainable. It either gets boring or becomes ineffective. Recovery needs to be mentally stimulating, enjoyable, and evolving. A boring recovery is a dangerous recovery. If you want to get in touch with Jennifer, visit her website here: https://theintimacyclinic.org/ If you are a high-achiever, executive, or entrepreneur looking for a recovery group full of like-minded men, visit my website here: www.successfuladdict.com

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
The three second rule, the three circles of
sobriety,
arousal templates. Right? All these little exercises and
workbooks that guys do when they first get
into recovery, but it's kind of interesting because
when we fill these out initially, we
don't even really understand what recovery and sobriety
is. Right? So here we are establishing, you

(00:20):
know, the kind of the core concepts of
what we need to do to keep us
safe, what we need to do to stay
sober,
but we're doing this at a time where
we really have very little experience as to
what our specific addiction is and what it
is that we need to do to stop
it. In this podcast episode, I talked to
Jennifer Ginsberg, and she had this brilliant idea
of going back and kind of revisiting some

(00:41):
of the core principles
of sobriety and recovery and applying them now
that you have a better grip of how
big this problem actually is.
You are listening to the sex addiction podcast
for high achievers, business professionals, executives, and entrepreneurs.
This podcast is designed to apply sobriety and
recovery principles
specifically to the mindset of the high achiever.

(01:03):
I'm your host, Roland Cochran, founder of The
Successful Addict, a recovery group for high achieving
men struggling with sex and porn addiction. For
more information about joining our group or attending
our next retreat, visit successfuladdict.com.
And now, enjoy the rest of the episode.
Oh, wow. This is gonna be a fun
conversation today. When I met Jennifer,

(01:24):
we
we were like instantaneous friends. We share so
many of the same viewpoints of this, the
same frustrations, you know, in in our efforts
to advocate for our clients and the couples
that we serve,
with really trying to,
make this process more streamlined, make it easier
to understand. You know, I think the field,
it's so young, it's so new. This just

(01:45):
came about in the eighties when we really
started calling this,
sex and porn addiction.
But I think there is still some murkiness
to it. There's some things that are still
a little, hard to apply to your particular
situation. And, Jennifer and I today are gonna
try to help you make that process a
little bit easier. And the topic today is

(02:06):
one that we have not had on the
show before, and this is the, like, idea
of arousal, attraction, you know, as we come
and talk about about it in the, sex
addiction field,
the arousal template, which for those of you
who are not familiar with what that is,
you know, I'll I'll have Jennifer explain her
definition of it. But, you know, my definition
is more or less,

(02:26):
every guy is attracted to
different stuff and,
there's a reason for some of it. And,
none of it's weird. Just it just is
what it is, and, we're gonna teach you
about how you can leverage,
some of that information
in your sobriety and in your recovery.
Jennifer, I'll have you take the, take the
lead here first.

(02:47):
When you hear arousal template, where do you
place that in recovery, and why is it
so important for men to understand what it
is? Because I do think it's one of
the ones that is touched on initially and
then skipped over.
How do you kinda deal with it in
your practice?
Well, the reason it's skipped over is I
think that it carries so much shame for

(03:07):
so many men
because
men
think
that their arousal template is something out of
their control.
They're scared by it. They feel
dominated by it, and they've they've felt shamed
by it.
And
often in recovery,
it's a very black or white approach. There's

(03:28):
there's this idea that if you're in recovery,
you're you're not doing certain things. You're in
full abstinence. So so that part of your
brain or your body is just turned off.
And that only gets you so
far. Behavioral
interventions
with intimacy disorder,
and when we know what we know about

(03:48):
treating intimacy disorders, we're treating trauma,
they will only get you so far.
Because the greater the repression, the greater the
need to act out.
So my work is about really understanding what's
going on here. Okay? We're we're gonna take
the shame out of the equation,
and we're gonna say an arousal template or
a blueprint as I call it.

(04:09):
These exist in all people and and they're
often unconscious and they're not chosen.
Mhmm. So I have men come to my
practice and often they'll they'll have
years, sometimes decades of recovery.
And when I we start talking about arousal
blueprint,
they're lost. They just they'll say, I I

(04:30):
like blondes.
I I like big breasts. And and they
don't know why. And they don't want to
talk about it. And they just feel controlled
by it. I can't go to the supermarket.
All I see are, you know, body parts
everywhere.
And we have to slow this way down
and say, okay. What's happening here?
What's happening?
Why are you feeling
so out of control, and where did this

(04:51):
come from? And that's what this work is
about and what I'm gonna talk about today.
Mhmm. I like that. It's a you know,
because I do it's it's it's glossed over,
and I think you're absolutely correct. I think
the impression
you know, as I'm kinda, like, rewinding back
to when I first started recovery, I think
you're I think you're correct. I think my
impression was,

(05:13):
this I can't control this. This is a
part of me. And,
in my particular case, you know, my sex
addiction started, I'm a full blown addiction compulsive
when I was 10 years old. And so,
I was actually even arrested for my behavior
when I was 14.
And,
so for me, tremendous amount of shame. I
mean, my, you know, my,

(05:35):
very religious household,
society didn't even want me around. Right? You
know, that, you know, this poor 14 year
old kid getting handcuffed and fingerprinted and,
polygraph they polygraphed me when I was 14.
My god, it was such a what still
to this day, the most traumatic experience that
I've ever experienced.
And, yeah, so for me, my arousal template

(05:55):
was now I'm not telling nobody. No one's
gonna find out because when you guys did
find out about a little bit, look what
happened.
Right? I was I was shamed. I was
put in the back of a cop car.
I was put in holding for hours. You
know, it's like and then I went to
school the next day at 7AM.
Right? And so it's like, alright. Well, I'm
never doing that one again. Right? And so

(06:16):
I do think you're correct. I think a
lot of it is this is out of
my control. I just don't wanna talk about
it because there's nothing that can be done
about it. So I think that that's a
good place to have to start this conversation.
That
is so important. I just I need to
say this so I don't lose it because
the the state of shame
is very physiologically
similar to arousal.

(06:38):
So that heightened state,
right, where it fuses together in that moment
of secrecy,
shame,
getting caught, getting in trouble,
and arousal. Now it's fused.
Mhmm. Mhmm. And it's and
you hear that. Right? You you'll you'll hear
guys,
and and and everybody listening has probably heard

(07:00):
this before. There are therapists and guys who
will come in and they're almost addicted
to the shame. It's it's, in the in
recovery, they're they're so used to hiding this
and they have been for, you know, ten
years, twenty years, thirty years, forty years, that
when they don't have it to hide, it's
almost
like, they're missing something that they, that they

(07:21):
need. Right? That's a different topic for a
different day, but you're absolutely correct. It can
become
it can become
sexualized.
Right? It's just like rage can be sexualized.
Right? So if you think that's shame.
Absolutely. This is all straight on the same
topic. Right? As we're talking about arousal template,
this is this is this is exactly on
our topic, you know, having shame and secrecy

(07:42):
be folded into that. You know, for me,
my, you know, my I had a big,
a lot of mine was around rebellion and
defiance. And so when my behavior started becoming
policed when I was in recovery,
you know, blockers, covenant eyes, my wife, you
know, checking all these different things, I actually
had cravings to do it far more. You
know, pornography was never really a massive part

(08:04):
of my personal addiction, but all of a
sudden when I can't do it,
my arousal template liked doing something that I
can't do. You know, growing up as a
as a Mormon kid in the LDS church,
you know, I I hated my church. I
hated the people at the church. I hated
the way they talk to me, the way
they treated me. And so I developed a,

(08:25):
interesting arousal template around doing sexual things to
piss them off because I could hide it.
And so I knew I was doing it.
They didn't know, and it gave me a
little rush of kinda getting back at them.
So my my point of sharing some of
these examples is
this is this is how an arousal template
is formed, and this is how an arousal
template,
you know, essentially, my my point of sharing

(08:46):
my personal experiences is it's not as weird
as everyone wants to make it sound, but
but let's dive into that. So
how they act like they don't have control
over it. They act like it's part of
them. I want you to kinda speak to
that first so that guys can kind of
untether.
Yeah. So so attraction follows a pattern. It's
shaped by early experiences,

(09:08):
trauma, we have to say trauma, early experiences,
adverse experiences,
media.
Men are victims
to media. I truly believe that. The images
are thrown at them. Men do not choose
to have sexualized images thrown at them. The
multi billion dollar porn industry, which preys on

(09:29):
men.
And it's there to just hook men, addict
men, and keep them locked in the cycle
of consumption and addiction.
And more, more, more, and ultimately just get
them to pay money to fuel the multi
billion dollar industry
and unmet needs. Mhmm. So
so when men have this idea that and

(09:50):
justifications
around their arousal template and the behaviors that
might go along with it such as objectifying
women,
staring,
acting out behaviors, and they rationalize that under
the umbrella of I'm just a man, men
are visual, all men look.
We need to really slow that way down.

(10:12):
Okay? Because we need to really wonder about
this right now. Yes, men are visual
and
men can absolutely step into what I call
emotional leadership and that's that's where the transformation
happens and say yes, I'm a man, I'm
visual, I like to look at things,
and I have control. I don't I don't

(10:33):
get controlled by pixels on a screen, I
don't get controlled when I go to the
supermarket. I know, I now know
what's going on with me in my internal
world and I have the power of choice.
How I am a free man when I
move through the world, but I have choice.
What what I do with my eyes, what
I do with my body, what I do
with my brain.
So that that's the journey of real recovery.

(10:56):
Mhmm. Well, it's it's, you know, one of
my the example I always bring up when
guys
push back on it because they do. They
they genuinely
believe that this is normal and baked into
their DNA and that this wasn't a choice.
Here's my rebuttal to that is
there are tribes to this day. My wife
and I have have visited them. There are
tribes in parts of this of this world

(11:17):
to this day that do not wear clothes.
And the men are not running around sexually
aroused. The men are not staring uncontrollably. The
men are not obsessed
with these various women in their tribe because
no one's ever wear clothes in that tribe.
It's it's not a to see a boob
is not rare. Boobs are around all the
time. So my point is

(11:37):
if you're taught that they're rare, if you're
taught that there's some sort of value, if
you're taught that, your life's gonna be better
when you have access to these these body
parts,
that is learned.
And, a lot of people like to disagree
with me. They think they think that it's
biological, and there is a there is a
biological aspect to attraction and sex appeal. No
doubt about that. I'm not saying there's not.

(11:59):
But how come there's all of these tribes
where no one wears any clothes and none
of the men are running around aroused all
day uncontrollably. Right? And that's my point of
bringing that example up is there is a
cultural
influence here. And to your point, you do
have control. Absolutely.
So let's kind of let's dive a little
bit deeper then. Where do we find so
here we are. We're in relational recovery. You're

(12:21):
a married guy. You've been caught by your
wife. Your wife is now obviously, she's extremely
traumatized. She's hurt.
She's hyper aware now and confused and scared
about what you're into, what you're looking at.
So here's this couple and,
Roussel Template is is she's very curious about
what it is. He's very scared to really

(12:42):
talk about it.
Where does one begin here? Because it's a
it's a source of conflict for couples in
that first It's a huge source. So a
lot of the couples that I see it
brings great pain to women because they see
their husbands looking at other women when they're
out together.
They see it and it really
really upsets them. It hurts them.

(13:04):
It's a betrayal on top of a betrayal.
And these are couples that are trying to
do repair work
and their husbands cannot stop
objectifying
and staring.
They cannot stop the behavior without intervention.
Mhmm. And
they bring it to to therapy. Often their
wives will confront them in the moment and

(13:25):
they get full defensiveness and rationalization
and I didn't do it and then we
come in and and I with with me,
I'm able to
have them
step forward into honesty about it. And then
we have to start wondering.
First of all, we have to take the
shame out.
Men don't choose their arousal template. They don't
choose it. It often is imprinted

(13:47):
before they had the power of choice.
Where does it come from? You knew where
it came from in your case.
It came from a social conditioning. It came
from childhood adversity.
It came from
family dysfunction.
Right? We can't leave sexual abuse out of
this conversation.
Often a place it comes from. Some men

(14:09):
just inherit their father's
arousal print.
Their father
is sexualizing women, talking about his type. Their
father has a stack of playboys
that their son grabs, and suddenly their dad's
arousal blueprint is their arousal blueprint. Most clients
don't wanna think about that.
Very common.
Very, very common for,

(14:31):
adult child to inherit their father's arousal blueprint
because there were really poor, poor boundaries in
the house around sexuality.
Mhmm. Mhmm. So we first need to understand,
you know what where yours came from. You've
you've done that well. Well, it's not enough
of the work and done enough of the
work and paid a bunch of money
to figure it out, but I got there.

(14:52):
So I can share I can share a
a case study. I had a client come
to me and
he was again
very upset by the behavior that was upsetting
his wife that he couldn't stop staring. He
couldn't stop staring. And his his theory was
I just love to look at beautiful things.
And that that's where it ended. He couldn't
get past that. I I just am one
of those men. I see something beautiful and

(15:13):
I have to stare.
I said okay let's slow this down.
What's your earliest memory? We went back into
the arousal
template. When did you first what was your
first earliest sexual memory?
And he recalled a story when he was
a very young boy, six or seven years
old, and he saw Wonder Woman.
And he said that

(15:35):
just desire and arousal and lust and love
and everything took over. He's he's looking at
Wonder Woman
and all he could talk about in that
moment in session with me were the physical
her light eyes, her dark hair, her body,
her curves.
And he's going on and on, and it's
the beauty. And so his whole life, he

(15:56):
says, he's looking for these images of Wonder
Woman. These physical images of Trader Joe's,
you know, when he takes a walk at
the gym. He's looking for Wonder Woman. This
man's on a mission. He can't stop.
And and it's his divine right. He gets
to do this, right, because he's a man,
and he gets to look at beautiful
images that look like Wonder Woman.

(16:18):
And
I
sat with him, and I said, let's wonder
about Wonder Woman and what this is for
you.
And he just insisted,
just beautiful. She's so beautiful. Of course, I
wanna look at her. Who wouldn't wanna stare
at Wonder Woman? Look at her body. Look
at her face.
And I said, what was let's really talk
about what your life looked like then. And

(16:39):
and this was a new client. We were
really in our first session. This was happening.
And
what was happening was his father, a drug
addict,
was abusive.
His mother had disappeared completely and had abandoned
him and wasn't protecting him from the abusive
drug addict father.

(17:00):
And the little boy was watching Wonder Woman
and falling in love with her.
How could he not fall in love with
Wonder Woman?
She was Wonder Woman, she was everything he
needed to rescue him from that.
And so he had then spent the next
forty years

(17:20):
searching for Wonder Woman
in all sorts of ways that caused tremendous
self destruction
and destruction to other people and harm to
himself.
And you know it feels very obvious,
but it was very powerful
for him.
And
and still then what do we do with
that? So we know now. Okay. Great. Now

(17:41):
we know. We we put it together. Now
we've named the wound. Where's the healing?
Let's move into what the healing looks like.
Now you're out. You're out in the world.
You're at the supermarket and you see an
image. You see a woman and she looks
like Wonder Woman and you just feel like
you need to stare
and you feel shame, right? You're a man
and you just want to stare and they're,

(18:01):
and you're torn because you know you shouldn't,
you're in recovery. I know I'm not supposed
to stare.
I know it's bad. I know it means
it's, like, not really a relapse, but it's
kind of not good. And I know my
wife doesn't like it, but she's not here.
So maybe I'll just look when lying at
her butt when no one's looking. I'm gonna
get away with it. What are you looking
at?
Well, I'm just looking, you know, I'm looking

(18:22):
at this. I'm looking at that. I really
sit with them. What what are you looking
at? What what is what are you seeing?
What do you need?
What what is it in that image that
is fueling you? What is it giving you?
And often what I get and they push,
men don't want to go there. When I
say what's really in that image, when you

(18:43):
see a woman and you feel drawn to
stare, often they don't want the woman to
look back. They don't want an interaction.
They're wanting to be fed. They are feeding
off the image. There is something inside
of some men
that feels very empty and very
broken
to them,

(19:03):
and that image will act like almost
a drug,
and it will provide them with relief.
That that's how they're using
images of women.
And so it's very powerful. I mean, we're
dealing with a powerful
powerful
balm for their soul Mhmm. In that moment.

(19:26):
And so we need to then wonder about
that. Mhmm. How can you get that met
in another way? What what what what are
we doing here? What do you need to
take care of yourself so you're not going
through the world
and needing to,
you know, suck the energy out of people
in ways that are harmful,
Right? That are hurting your wife, that are

(19:46):
taking the energy out of you, that are
perceived as kind of creepy if anyone were
to see you. Right? And I don't like
to use that word because it's very shaming.
Right? But that's how they feel and
you you don't want to be the man
that's just staring at women
but yet you think you should be able

(20:06):
to be because you're a man. Right. Right.
The the the two sides. Right. Right? Right.
Right.
What what are you getting from the image?
What is it giving to you? Well, I
think too, you know, that what I noticed
with successful men
is
a lot of it's insatiable.
So there there there isn't enough.

(20:28):
You know, it's it's,
you know, the for you know, I'll I'll
speak again for me.
You know, it's a the more of them
I can get to want me and find
me attractive,
the better I am. And there is no
limit. I need to I need to get
that number as high as I can. I
need to get as many women to wish

(20:50):
that they could be my wife as possible.
So there isn't there isn't enough. But back
to your point, what's the void?
The void is, you know, in my particular
example,
wondering
if I,
if people like me. You know, am I
enough? Am I,
do I matter? Am I am I accomplished?
Is this does anyone consider my life important?

(21:12):
And,
there's never enough of that for me. I
need I need to stack up as much
of it as I can. And it's not
just women. It's also,
I want men's attention and envy and jealousy
as well. And so for me, that's what
I'm doing out in the world. You know,
I I actually don't identify as a sex
addict. I am addicted to attention validation, superiority,
feeling,

(21:33):
feeling like I'm the best in the room.
That's my vision. And part of that recipe
has become for me,
I see all these men saying, oh, wow.
I wish we could be with her. You
know what that said to me in my
arousal template? Well, I must need to go
get her to wanna be with me in
front of these guys. Mhmm. Right? For that,

(21:53):
you know, my whole thing, it was this
it was this game.
And and there was never enough because
once I got that, it was like, okay.
Check. And now I need another one. Alright.
Alright. Who else who else is hard to
get? Alright. Let's see if I can go
get that person. And, it's just this insatiable
treadmill of,
I need to stack this up. And I
I I bring that up because

(22:15):
it's,
that is for the guys listening to this.
I mean, that is really what it's like
to grow up as a guy from age
15 to 25. I mean, for the for
that decade,
you know, especially through college, I mean, that
is
the the purpose of life, and it's pathetic.
It really is sad to say this out
loud. I'm I'm I'm very
sad to say this, but amongst some male

(22:36):
circles, that is that is what those ten
years are about. 10 to 25 is sleeping
as many,
beautiful women as possible. If we wanna go
all in on the objectification language, sleeping with
as many tens
as possible. Right? And,
you know, think about the effect of that.
And what I wanna bring up is
so you think when you get married, you're

(22:57):
just gonna stop.
Right. That's what I thought. Right? Was, oh,
yeah. I'll I'll I'll I'll do this while
I can, but then, you know, I'll I'll
I'll hang it up one day. And,
I couldn't hang it up.
Yeah.
Right? So when we're talking arousal templates,
you know, I wanted to bring that example

(23:18):
up because, you know, it's a
there's a lot of facets to this when
we're talking about actually getting over this. It's
you know, I wanted to bring that up.
There's,
there's a lot at play here. There's a
lot in the void, and there's a lot
in the game that you've decided to play
to get it. And so it's a,
you know, I I I bring that example

(23:38):
up not to intimidate people, but to basically
say, you know, this is if you really
wanna conquer this, this is a big this
is a bigger conversation. I mean, this isn't
something yes. This isn't a this isn't a
oh, it's I like this type and this
type and this type, and now I need
to,
you know, break that. It's it's can be
incredibly convoluted. That's And there and there's a
reason. Right? Like, it was such a a

(24:01):
great,
illustration that you gave about the other culture.
Mhmm. And walked around naked and nothing was
sexualized because of it.
There's a reason why in our culture and
a lot of cultures that young men 15
to 25 just want to have as much
casual
non emotional
sex with attractive women as possible.

(24:23):
They're learning it. Mhmm. They're learning that from
somewhere. Mhmm. That's not innate. Yeah. Superbad. You
guys seen that movie? Superbad is a movie
about two high school seniors who desperately wanna
get laid. And it was and it made
millions upon millions upon millions of dollars, and
no one really thought anything. I just watched
it on,
it was, like, on oh, no. I didn't

(24:43):
watch it. It was on the person sitting
next to me on the airplane was watching
it, and I could not believe
how much
sexual, pornography,
pornography
references over and over again.
But it is. This is the stuff that's
being normalized.
Well, because parents yeah. And I think that,
you know, parents don't think it's a big

(25:04):
deal. It's not, you know, we think about
all the nonsense that's taught in high school
that none of it gets applied or used.
But
what's not taught in school the most important
things how to have a healthy relationship and
how to balance your checkbook.
Those should be like the two classes that
you have to take in high school.
And no one takes either of those, and

(25:24):
there's no financial readiness and no emotional sexual
readiness whatsoever. There there's a lot of fear
about sex, you know, how to not catch
disease and how to not get pregnant.
That's part of sexuality.
Of course, that's a big part. Yes. We
need to be safe. But what about emotional
safety?
What about how to communicate when you're having

(25:46):
sex with someone? How about how to say,
I don't like that.
Let's slow
down. That doesn't feel good. We need to
have an emotional connection before you put yourself
inside of me. We need to talk.
We need to go slow.
No one no one teaches anyone this.
No one does.
And so we wonder why people are have

(26:09):
intimate have intimacy disorders, have sex addiction, have
Well, even worse, you know, who's teaching it
is the adult film industry. I mean, that's
that's because no one's teaching it. Yeah. Men
are men are watching these,
you know, and it's it's telling them two
things. Yes. There's whatever it is that they're
watching, but there's also a counter at the
bottom that says how many times it's been
views viewed. Right? That how many men have

(26:31):
watched that video. That's data that's telling you
that what you're doing is not abnormal. You
know, I was I was talking to my
wife the other day. I was like, there's
this game that that we played as kids
called Grand Theft Auto, and,
you can hire prostitutes. And I used to
tell my wife, I was like, oh my
gosh. I just thought of something. She was
like, what? I was like, when I was
11 years old, I was playing Grand Theft

(26:53):
Auto on the PlayStation, and we would pick
up hookers.
And I, you know, yeah, I'm just thinking
of what impact that had on me at
11 years old that full grown men who
have cars and have money
pick up hookers. That was what that that
was what that taught me. That this is
Yeah. This is not an abnormal occurrence. Right?
Right? You know, it's just it's shocking that

(27:15):
this stuff that we
So the three second rule talk about I
just wanna say I wanna get to that
but when we talk about the the arousal
blueprint it is important to say that yes
it's sexual trauma, you can inherit it from
your father, it's culture, it's all of this,
but yes porn.
Many men get their arousal blueprint from porn.
They they're watching porn at this very young

(27:35):
age that I consider actually sexually abuse sexual
abuse. Early exposure to porn when a young
boy's watching that,
that that is abusive to his emerging sexuality
to be watching those images.
And that is forming an arousal blueprint.
And when we think about what even mainstream
porn is, very male focused,

(27:58):
no intimacy,
no emotional intimacy,
very focused on a woman just being an
object and being used for male pleasure.
Right? And discarded
and
wow. That's what they're watching and Mhmm. They
can see anything they want and those images
get seared into their brain. I mean, they
are designed

(28:18):
to
porn is a container
for men to hold their shame. Many men
who feel like they can't even explore their
sexuality in a healthy way because of religious
oppression,
like you experienced,
because
because they might have an alternative sexual identity
that they need to explore,

(28:39):
porn becomes a container for that. And I
understand that, you know, it becomes
a the only container they have in that
instance where they feel enormous shame about some
part of their sexuality.
Mhmm. And what I want to say to
that is
still
your sexuality,
no matter what is going on, no matter
what you're attracted to, you know, healthy sex

(29:00):
is sex between consenting adults.
That is my definition.
And because of
morality or religious upbringing, all sorts of of
things, many men will use porn to explore
parts of themselves that they would never with
their talk about with their wife or anyone
else or even in an their therapist, they
won't even talk to her with an essay
in an essay meeting.

(29:21):
And so they'll go to porn for that.
And, you know, there's something to me that's
quite beautiful about that because they're trying to
heal themselves. They they there's this part of
them that wants to understand maybe why am
I curious about
sex with a man. Right? I'm a man.
And,
they they feel so much shame.

(29:42):
Instead of saying this is something normal and
healthy and sexuality is on the spectrum and
we all know the Kinsey scale and this
and that, They they might not know that.
They need a therapist like me to tell
them that and say you actually are allowed
to feel this way. And you don't have
to hide
in the in the corner and feel shame
and look at porn.
It that's not your only option for exploring

(30:04):
this. Right?
Mhmm. There are other ways to talk about
this. And so that often has to become
a big part of the work too. Mhmm.
You have to you have to get out
of the shadows of that and and bring
it into the light and talk about what
is a healthy expression.
You know, that's and that is, you know,
that you know, my wife and I are

(30:25):
still working on it because I
I still even don't know, you know, if
I know what sex is, like, healthy sex.
You know? I I
I'm I'm what I've learned about it, I
remember in recovery when I was learning about
it, I was like, man, I don't know
if I've had sex. If if that's what
sex is, I don't know if I've ever
had that. Right? You know? I don't know
if I've I've had intercourse,

(30:45):
but I haven't had sex in the way
that it's described. And it's just, you know,
a lot of for me, it was just
a lot of religious wounds of being told
I was gonna go to hell for all
these certain things And, you know, it just
made me very scared of it to the
point where I think as a little boy,
it was just like, well, I'm just not
gonna mess with that. You know, I'm not
gonna you know, I'll do it bare minimum.
I'll do it over here as a secret,

(31:05):
just to get my, you know, needs met.
But outside of that, I'm I'm not gonna
be into it. And I've I've historically had
a very low libido,
and it's been a problem in every relationship.
And,
I don't know if I actually have a
low libido or if I'm just,
scared of sex
because of just a complete misunderstanding
around
what that emotional exchange actually even is. You

(31:28):
know, it's and it's it's sad to say
that because,
I know my wife wants to have sex
with me, and, again, I just don't know
because it wasn't taught to me. I'm not
sure if I even understand what that what
that is, you know.
I can have intercourse. I've had lots of
that, but, like, real sex, again, I'm still
I'm in my infancy of figuring out, you

(31:48):
know, personally what that even is. You know?
My wife are exploring that together. I think
that's ex one of the exciting things about
relational recovery is, a lot of guys are
not,
you know, they haven't really had sex in
the way that their wife would love to
have,
connected sex. And I think that's one of
the cool gifts that recovery can give couples
is, you know, you might be able to
have intimate sexual intimacy, physical intimacy that you've

(32:10):
never had before because of what what you're
gonna explore through this, you know, later half
of this process. Again, this does not happen
in the begin in the beginning of betrayal
recovery. This is something that you guys do
in phase
three when you have decided, hey. Let's let's
what what more can we experience. Right? But
what I ask my couples that come to
me often with these sorts of

(32:33):
concerns is I say, what is sex?
Mhmm. Because I can ask a thousand couples
this question, a thousand individuals what is sex
and I'll get a thousand different answers. But
I'll tell you that the vast majority of
heterosexual men that I ask them what is
sex,
they'll look at me like I'm crazy because
why don't I know what sex is and
I'm a certified sex addiction therapist. First of

(32:54):
all, they look at me like I'm absolutely
stupid or starkraving mad
and I tolerate that. And then I
I say please answer me what is sex
and they will they will tell me that
it involves an erect penis in a vagina
that results in an orgasm.
Yeah. And then they wonder why their wives
are so unhappy. Mhmm.
That's a really narrow definition of sex. Yes.

(33:18):
And they wonder why they're unhappy. I mean,
we have these old bodies.
And when you're you've reduced it to three
things, penis, vagina, orgasm, and that's it. And
if one of those things doesn't work or
wanna cooperate,
no sex,
bad, didn't work, shame,
not good.

(33:38):
Yeah. Well, and I think too, if sex
is that,
then you can get it and have it
everywhere. And I think that, you know, when
we're talking about sobriety recovery,
I think that's why it was so easy
for me was, you know, I think that
was why it was so heartbreaking for my
wife when she was like, wow. We have
two different definitions of what sex is. And,

(34:00):
she's right but wrong. She was right. We
do have two different definitions.
I want mine to be like hers, and
I've always wanted mine to be like hers.
I just didn't have anybody help me
get there. And so that's what I've kind
of told her is, like, listen,
I know how it comes across. I know
it's so offensive to you. I don't want
it that way. I never wanted it that

(34:20):
way. That's just it's it's it's gotten to
that point and, it's it's it truly wasn't
what I wanted. And I think, you know,
that's, you know and and again, I'm projecting
a little bit here, but I think that's
one of the more frustrating pieces about
healing our marriage that I was frustrated from
from the beginning was I felt like I
was being looked at and talked
to like I was a freak, like I

(34:42):
was weird, like I was a monster.
And the whole time I'm frustrated because I'm
like, I'm on your side. I I I
wanna I wanna feel like you, think like
you, act like you. I wanna have I
wanna preserve the sexual,
energy for our relationship. And so it was
it was very frustrating because I was being
treated like I didn't want that when I
was really on the same team. I just

(35:02):
I just honestly didn't have the knowledge,
to be able to do it. I mean,
I know it sounds so dumb. Right? Because
everyone,
you know, everyone looks at it and they're
like, what do you mean you don't know
what sex is? It's a, you know, we
all need it. We all want but again,
I think if you're not taught what it
is
and what it should be,

(35:23):
then why would you know?
I teach sex to my couples and individuals
as a menu.
Sex is not an act, it's a menu.
Just like every day we're different, we don't
wanna eat the same food every day, and
we shouldn't because nutritionally that would not be
good for us even if we wanted to
eat a healthy food every day. It wouldn't
be good to eat kale for every meal.

(35:43):
Sex is a menu and
there should be lots of things on the
menu and it should be something you discuss
with your partner.
It might be a sensual massage one night.
We want a broad menu.
Right? It might be one night, I just
you know, women sometimes they're hormonal. They have
their period. Men have hormonal changes.

(36:04):
You ate something. Your stomach hurts. I just
I'm gonna lay there and you can you
can have you know, you can masturbate, and
I'll lay next to you. That's on the
menu.
Maybe one night, we'll take a shower together.
That's on the menu. There's lots of things
that can be on the menu that we
can call sex.
And when couples work with the menu their

(36:24):
sex life suddenly becomes very interesting, very intimate,
and very connected.
And then you take turns setting the stage
for the menu.
Right?
One night,
oh, let's discuss what's on the menu tonight.
And it's it's it takes so much stress
out of it.
It takes a lot of work because often
men think the only thing on my menu

(36:46):
is intercourse and orgasm.
Yeah. Right? So we need to really slow
them down and deeply attune them to their
partners and themselves.
Mhmm.
Mhmm. Now I wanna speak to this for
you guys listening because I know there's some
of you listening who are gonna take this
and run with it the wrong way. Jennifer
and I are not
saying

(37:07):
that this problem happened because your menu was
too small and too infrequent. We are not
saying that you need to grab this podcast
and send it to your wife and say,
see. I told you we need to do
more adventurous you know, that is not what
we are saying. What we are saying is
Not how to adventure. No. Yeah.
What we're saying is as you guys make
it through the crisis phase, which can last

(37:27):
if you're lucky and do everything right, which
guys never do, it can be done as
fast as eight months, but I would say
most guys screw it up and it goes
well into a year. And then even phase
two, phase two is, okay. Hey. We've decided
that we're gonna,
try to come together, and she no longer
has one foot in, one foot out. She
puts both feet back in, but still phase

(37:47):
two is delicate as well. So what Jennifer
and I are saying is
sex needs to be discussed. There is a
healthy thing that needs to be, but I
know some of you guys listening are gonna
take are gonna take this and run with
it as a solution to your relational problems.
It is an element that needs to be
discussed, but I would also say that in
the case of, relation sexual betrayal and and,

(38:09):
the relational healing,
don't be alarmed, guys, if this is not
a conversation that comes up for potentially for
years. I mean, it's Oh, but more than
that, I this is a this is a
long role. I wanna say that the sexual
integration piece of recovery after betrayal trauma, the
trauma lives in the body. Yeah. Okay. So
this is often the very last piece. I

(38:31):
have couples I've worked with for a long
time that are not ready to touch this.
The women are just not ready.
And I take them we can when I
come back here, you know, we can talk
about Sensate exercises
both that men can do on their own
with healthy sex with self because most men
don't have any tools to have healthy sex
with self. They just come to programs,

(38:52):
SAA or recovery or any program and they're
just like, I have to stop masturbating.
That's it. Done.
And, I when I start talking to them
about how to integrate healthy masturbation back into
their life, they're terrified and stunned, and no
one's ever told them how to do that.
So I've actually developed a framework for men
to
have healthy self with sex with self, which

(39:13):
is the foundation for them to begin to
have healthy partnered sex.
And this
and dealing with betrayal trauma, this this lives
in the body. So the menu is even
more important to have deep attunement to your
partner. What is she feeling? What does she
need?
Does she need a foot rub?

(39:34):
Is that gonna be on the menu tonight?
And can you deeply attune yourself to that?
That can be a beautiful experience when you're
really connected to your partner.
It's a it's and I think you it's
I'm happy you brought that up because I
do think we need to touch on it.
I've never I don't think I've ever touched
on it on any episode, but this is

(39:54):
a topic that comes up in all of
my guys' groups, masturbation.
You know, I agree with what Jennifer just
said. Inherently,
there is nothing wrong or illegal with masturbation.
Now maybe your church, you know, my my
the parent the church that my parents
tried to bring me up in,
you know, my I remember masturbating when I
was, like, four or five years old, and

(40:16):
I told my mom. And my mom told
me that I was gonna go to hell
for it, that I wouldn't be able to
go to the temple. And,
that was my first message
when exploring
that with myself. And so,
you know, there may be some religious
thing that says you can't masturbate, and, again,
I'm not gonna tell you what to believe,
what not to believe. That's your religious choice.

(40:38):
But inherently, there's nothing wrong with masturbation. You're
not, you know, you know what? I think
there's plenty of consent there. No one's being
hurt by this. Where I have chosen to
kind of talk to guys about it is
if you cannot do it without
watching porn, and what I mean by that
is even porn stored in your brain,
fantasy,

(40:59):
you know, if you cannot do it without
actually watching porn or watching fake porn with
your eyes closed,
I don't know. That's that's probably acting out
then. But to Jennifer's point, I there are
lots of therapists out there who actually
can teach you how you can have a
masturbation practice that does not involve

(41:21):
objectifying
or imagining women that are not your partner.
Right? There it is possible. You know, we
don't need to go down that rabbit hole,
but since you broached the topic, you know,
it did there's gonna be a lot of
guys who go to SA who are who
are freaking out right now and say, no.
No. No. No. I can't.
I always say, yeah. You can't if you
can't
keep from objectifying women and even No. That's

(41:43):
not true. I work I work I know
12 step programs
as well. I'm I'm as well as anyone.
I I know them intimately.
And there's nothing
in a circle plan,
right? In in early recovery, we're looking at
abstinence. There's no masturbation. We're looking you you
have to work with your individual therapist and
your sponsor. No no sex, no masturbation

(42:05):
for a period of time because your body
and brain needs to heal.
So we're looking at I go slow with
men because it's it's very difficult for them,
but we're
ninety days, six months, really. I like six
months. Mhmm. We wanna really give the body
and brain time to heal.
And then when we start talking about reintegrating

(42:25):
masturbation,
this is not
we need to take it down to an
embodied
sex with self.
And I have actually
created a whole framework from him to do
this. No no one they they're shocked when
they see it. How how do they do
this? How do they? These are men who
say I have never
masturbated without looking at the porn on the

(42:46):
screen or the porn in my head, like
you've so beautifully said Roland.
And they can do it. You can rewire
yourself. You can transform. And the reason that
you can't masturbate and still look at the
porn in your head
is because it will deeply impact your relationships.
Since you're gonna then go into the world
and you're gonna still be objectifying and you're
still gonna be spirited and you're still gonna

(43:08):
not you're gonna not be present when you
have sex with your wife. It has a
lasting impact to you to have fully embodied
sex partner sex.
Having that experience with oneself
is
critical.
Mhmm. It's a you know, and and,
you know, healthy sex, you know, you and
I talked to you and I both talked

(43:29):
about bringing this into this conversation because it
is
it's this taboo topic that no one wants
to discuss because it technically has to do
with the genre of what has gotten you
here and gotten your marriage here. But at
the same time, I think it's a huge
disservice to ignore it.
So let's talk about,
I love the two pieces that, you and

(43:49):
I talked about bringing it to this
recording because I think so many men would
benefit from it.
The three second rule.
It's a for those guys who don't know,
what the three second rule is, it's kind
of a 12 step y thing that, is
is runs runs in 12 step groups. Basically
saying,
hey. You know, we're not gonna we're not
gonna get you in trouble for looking,

(44:12):
but we don't wanna look very long, and
we only wanna look once. Right? So, you
know, they call it three second rule because
it's like, okay. Hey. You looked over there.
You got you know, there's a couple seconds.
Alright. Now anything more than that is acting
out. It's just kind of like a measure
of kinda keeping us honest about objectifying people
in public.
What is your technique around that and how
is it different from the 12 step ideology?

(44:34):
Yeah. So a lot of men think that
the three second rule is that they have
three seconds to look and then kinda shame
themselves and beat themselves up and say, oh,
I looked three seconds. I didn't look good.
Okay. I use the three second rule. So
I like to use it actually for transformation
to actually rewire yourself because that's that's the
work I do. I'm not about behavioral change.

(44:55):
I'm about transformation.
The second one. Okay? We're we're gonna use
second one, second two, second three. You're you're
at the supermarket and you see the the
stimulus. You see the
the visual image that grabs you. And that's
second one. You it happens.
Second two
is you take a breath and you look
away.

(45:16):
And you say to yourself, this is someone's
child.
This this is someone's
partner.
Mhmm. And this is not the man I
wanna be. You you find a statement that
you say to yourself. It doesn't need to
be what I just said, but something that
resonates deeply and often
something that humanizes
the person that you're staring at.

(45:36):
Okay, we want, we want to move the
person is not an object for you to
feed off of
and consume.
This is someone
that is a human being and you want
to find value in them as a human
being. So you have one second to see
them, one second to get in touch with
the fact that they are you are a
human being. I am a man and this
is not how I wanna be. And this

(45:57):
is a person that I don't wanna do
this to.
This is someone's daughter.
Second three
is the prayer or the mantra.
And it could be the serenity prayer.
Some people really like that. For people who
don't want to use God themed language, it
could be any mantra you choose.
Could be,

(46:18):
you know, I
I
I release myself. I am free.
I am I am a man of light
and power. Anything that you wanna say, I'm
stepping into my my wise man now. I
am
stepping into the world with empowerment. Whatever you
wanna say. Or you can just say the
serenity prayer, which I find pretty neutral. You
can take out the God language if you

(46:39):
want and say higher power,
and then you move on. And you know
what? And and there there might be days
in your recovery where you have to use
the three second
technique
a thousand times, and that's okay.
Every time you use it, you're rewiring your
brain.
Mhmm. Mhmm. And I and I I I
can't remember who told me that approach. Somebody

(47:01):
I think somebody I met early on in
recovery, similar things. They were a little bit
different than that, but, similar of, like,
hey. Let's take this let's take this moment
and use it, rather than, like you said,
just looking and then, you know, because it
is. The second thought is always shame. I
mean, it's like, gosh. Dang it. You know,
why can't I you know, and then why
do I wanna look again? Right? And it's

(47:22):
all this negative negative negative negative. Whereas,
when you rehumanize the individual,
you know, that to me, it's one of
the most powerful things we can do. I
mean, I to me, I think all of
this happens because we've dehumanized
women. You know, the you know, when I
think about all the things that I've done,
it's all because
I stopped seeing the humanity in them and,

(47:43):
stopped seeing the humanity myself as well, right,
which is usually the precursor to not seeing
humanity and others is if I don't get
to be human, then none of you get
to be human as well. And it kind
of opens the floodgates.
Gates. I write about this in my book.
It's a hard chapter to write about because
I hate to admit that that's what happened.
But, you know, a lot of high achieving
men, I think, they don't realize that they've
dehumanized themselves, but they've turned themselves into success

(48:06):
robots. You know? I know how to be
good at everything and I'm gonna go do
that. And they don't feel,
they don't express,
you know, it's head down, grind.
They buy the fancy t shirts that say,
no one cares, work harder.
1% every bit did better every day, and
we all feel really good about, ourselves by
subscribing to these various mantras. But in the

(48:27):
end, humans weren't meant to,
stack it up and, torment themselves to make
a bunch of cash. You can go on
more elaborate vacations. You know, we're we're here
for something different than that. And then the
last topic I wanna hit on because,
I wanna make sure we bring this up
before we run out of time is the
darn free circles.
We got these dang three circles, and there's

(48:48):
some people who like them, some people who
hate them. There's people like me who,
I I always wonder what the heck to
put in the middle. It's almost like, to
me, if I don't put everything in the
middle, then it doesn't work because then there's
all these, like, caveats and gray area,
and it's caused actually a good amount. I
remember the the first the first year, especially,

(49:09):
the three circles actually caused a lot of,
problems in my relationship because there there were
certain things that I couldn't put in the
middle circle because they're too vague, and they
just happen all the time out of my
control. So I didn't wanna put them in
the middle circle because I was like, well,
then I'll barely have, you know, six hours
of sobriety ever.
But it's it's it's this convoluted thing that's

(49:31):
I think it was designed to be helpful,
and I often wonder sometimes how helpful it
really is.
You and I discussed kind of
reexamining
that. What's Jennifer's take on how to set
that up? Yeah. Well, the three circles plan
is so critical for men in recovery or
for I I use it for everyone. I
love it. It's visual. It's dynamic. It's not

(49:53):
written in ink. It can be written in
pencil. Things can move in and out of
circles.
It's a plan for life.
And
what I love is the outer circle,
okay, which is not even talked about. Yeah.
That's the one that that's I was gonna
say that's the one that we all examine
that one once when we make the plan
and then we never look at it again.
I'm all about let's live outer circle lives.

(50:13):
It's not about avoiding
the inner. Living it fill your life with
as many outer circles as possible.
I mean, really structure your day. That's recovery.
Yeah. So much self care. Mhmm. Yeah. Pillars
of self care with
beautiful meals
and exercise
and nature
and creativity

(50:33):
and connection that makes you feel good
and drinking lots of water and spending time
with people that uplift you
and doing work that inspires you. And if
you're in a job that's bringing you down,
make a plan to find a different I
have music in mine. I mean, mine mine
is I I get up and anytime I

(50:54):
feel like a little weird egoic addict y
thing going on,
I run up and throw some music on
and that is incredible at how much it
helps. And so I just wanted to slip
that in there as, guys, there's really no
limit to what can be in your outer
circle as long as it makes you more
you.
Yes. As long as it's life affirming, soul

(51:14):
affirming, relationship
affirming, healthy.
The middle circle, I I don't look at
the the middle circle as a slippery slope
down down to the the inner.
I look at it as
it can either it's sort of like chutes
and ladders, that game. I think it can
bring you up or bring you down. Right?
So if we if we were looking at
an alcoholic,

(51:34):
going to a bar is not a relapse
at all.
There can be a lot of great but
it belongs in the middle for sure. If
you're a newly sober alcoholic, we're not gonna
put and now going to the bar is
not an outer, and it's not an inner.
It's not a relapse.
So it can be a slippery slope behavior
if you're going to the bar to
to vicariously

(51:54):
stare at all the people drinking and
fantasize about drinking and get triggered by it,
then sure, you're gonna drink. But if you're
going to the bar because you're meeting your
creative partner there to discuss your next creative
project and that was the only place to
meet,
and you're lit up and you're excited and
you're tapped in and plugged into life Mhmm.
Then it's

(52:15):
a high middle. It's leading you to the
outer. Right? So it's the middle circle is
about intentionality.
Mhmm. Right? It's it's people, it's places, it's
things
that we need to keep an eye on.
Mhmm. We don't we don't walk blindly when
we're in recovery. It's about consciousness.
Men need to be conscious.
So when you're the reason I like this
plan,

(52:36):
the circle plan, is it's a visual reminder.
You can look at it and say,
wait a minute, where am I? And it's
also a wonderful tool when you're in relationship
repair to show to your partner.
Mhmm. Yeah. I agree with that. Every wife
that I've worked with loves
seeing these circle plans.
And I can't neglect to mention that inner
circle.

(52:56):
Many men don't want to do it because
they do not, the reason it's small, there's
a there's a method to the circle plan.
The middle start, the little circle, the tiny
one is small. The middle is a little
bit bigger and the outer is big. Why
is that? The little one is small because
you need to be able to define your
acting out behaviors in very concise,

(53:16):
brief,
staccato.
I call them Hemingway sentences. We want short
sentences.
I don't want a lot of explanation. Oh,
I can only look at porn on every
other Wednesday if it's this and that and
that. No. No porn.
No sex with anyone but my wife.
What else is there? No images.
Done. No social media. Done.

(53:38):
We don't need a lot of justifications.
We don't need rationalizations. It should
be two or three
concise
simple sentences in your inner. Middle,
we have more. There's a little more room.
Now get that outer circle gorgeous and beautiful
and live it.
And I love
Jennifer, I when you and I met,

(53:59):
I was talking to my wife shortly after,
and I said, you know what? I said,
it's really interesting. I said, she's very, like,
tried and true
with
the stuff that we all know about, but
I said, it's really interesting. She has come
in and
really, you know, to me, where the where
a lot of the traditional
practices fall short is

(54:21):
they get addressed once in the first three
weeks when really the guy has no freaking
idea that he's even an addict.
You know, he has no idea that he's
compulsive.
He he he frankly just doesn't wanna keep
coming to therapy. He's telling himself, yeah, I'll
go to, like, eight or nine twelve step
meetings, get the bang out the steps, and
then I'll be done. Right? And that's when

(54:42):
we have the guy create all this very
critical
recovery
stuff. And,
what I love about what you're encouraging is
it's ownership over it. It's it's ownership over
your arousal template. And if we need to
talk about it for three or four months,
then then we'll talk about it for three
or four months. It's ownership over your three
circles. If we need to talk about it
for three or four months, we'll talk about

(55:02):
it for three or four months. But I
think that's the thing I love about you
is it's like,
it's, you know, let's really give all of
these things
the
attention they deserve because I do think they
get checked off, and I do think I
don't think therapists mean to. Therapists are trying
to be helpful,
and they're kind of trying to march through

(55:23):
the long process because this is not a
short process.
But I think I love your emphasis on,
like,
this is all about living a good life.
So how do we use all these really,
really well thought out tools to actually modify
our living? So I just I love that
so much about you. I I have a
feeling we're gonna be doing more of these
podcasts going forward, you and I. Jennifer, how

(55:46):
can people
I know you're you're in the midst of,
like, launching so much cool stuff. You're speaking
at ITAP in a couple months. I'm excited
to go see you there.
But you're
you you've got all these, like, neat things
on the rise for now. I know some
of it's still in its development.
If guys want, guys, couples want to do
some work with you, what are these offerings?

(56:07):
How do they get more information? Okay. Well,
they can find me.
I'm on the Internet.
You can find me there.
If my name is Jennifer
Rudich Ginsberg.
Will you have some sort of option for
me? Yeah. We can throw this link in
the Okay. And then you can link to
my website. Yep. Mhmm. And there's a million
ways to contact me on my website. There's

(56:29):
a phone number, there's an email contact,
and I am the founder and the
owner of my practice which is called the
Intimacy Clinic.
And I I see individuals and couples and,
I do customized intensives and I've also created
two workbooks,
one for
men in recovery. It's called The King's Path,

(56:51):
a man's guide to emotional leadership and intimacy.
And I've created a workbook for women. It's
called embracing aloneness,
a woman's path to relational healing and reclaiming
power.
And I'm teaching embracing aloneness at the I
TAP Symposium
of Maine. I'm excited. Yes.
So, yes, that is how you find me.

(57:12):
Yes. Yeah. I love it so much. Jennifer,
this was wonderful. I so much appreciate you
sharing, your knowledge with us, and I cannot
wait to do this again because you and
I have a bunch of other stuff that
we wrote down that we didn't even get
to talk about that we'll talk about next
time. So thank you so much for your
time. Thank you, Roland. It was a pleasure
to be here. Thank you for having me.
Thanks for listening to this episode. If you

(57:32):
are a high achiever with a sex addiction
and you're looking for a recovery group full
of like minded men, visit successfuladdict.com.
We provide men with a recovery mastermind group
using four day retreats,
weekly group calls, and daily accountability check ins.
If you wanna achieve long term sobriety and
save your marriage, go to our website and
fill out our application.
If you enjoyed this episode, please pass it

(57:54):
along to a friend in recovery who would
benefit from listening. It is my mission to
get this information out to as many high
achievers as possible, and I can't do it
without your help.