June 20, 2025 • 54 mins
Sex addiction will destroy your marriage. The only way back is to create a new marriage that will likely look much different than the old marriage.
Your wife will be with a guy who she knows has the capability of lying to her and cheating on her.
You will have to be with a wife who is frequently triggered by trauma and may ask you to modify your lifestyle to keep her safe.
On this podcast episode, I am joined by Dr. Corey Allan, host of one of the top relationship podcasts, “Sexy Marriage Radio.”
Corey and I address a common question men ask themselves when in the depths of relational recovery… “Would it be easier if we just got divorced?” And, another question: “Should I just be single?”
All are fair questions when trying to heal the marriage after sexual betrayal. It's not an easy road for couples.
So, why be married? Well, that's exactly what we address in this podcast episode.
Listen to Dr. Corey's podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/sexy-marriage-radio/id472302597
If you have not yet bought my new book, you can access the first chapter here for free: https://successfuladdict.com/booksample
If you are looking for a sex addiction recovery group designed specifically for high-achievers, executives, business professionals, and entrepreneurs, visit my website here: successfuladdict.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Marital infidelity is gotta be one of the
hardest things couples can recover from. I mean,
the the lack of trust, the lack of
safety, the name calling, right? The stress, the
crying, the tears, the anger, the frustration
on both halves, right? You know, in the
beginning, you know, it's the betrayed partner whose
world's been flipped upside down. But, you know,
as time goes on, you know, these guys,
(00:21):
you know, the the the relationship is just
hard to be in. Right? There's no trust,
there's no safety, there's, there's there's arguing, you
know, it it doesn't look anything like it
did when you guys met. It is so
hard. It's so hard. And there's always this
question really on both sides, you know, the
cheating partner and the betrayed partner. Why be
married in the place? Why even be in
a relationship? Is it worth it? Right? Then
(00:43):
if this relationship doesn't work out, am am
I just gonna get betrayed and lied to
again in the next relationship? Right? It's a
question that comes up quite a bit after
all of this is, you know, do I
even wanna be married? Will I get married
again? Well, in this podcast, we talk about
marriage.
Marriage, why people do it, why people put
themselves in these very difficult situations? Because marriage
is not easy. And my guest I'm bringing
(01:06):
with you today has one of the top
marriage podcasts
on all podcast platforms. And what Corey is
gonna talk about today is he's gonna take
all of his wisdom from everything that he's
gathered over all the years and bring it
into the betrayal, trauma, and sex addiction context.
You are listening to the sex addiction podcast
for high achievers, business professionals, executives, and entrepreneurs.
(01:28):
This podcast is designed to apply sobriety and
recovery principles
specifically to the mindset of the high achiever.
I'm your host, Roland Cochran, founder of The
Successful Addict, a recovery group for high achieving
men struggling with sex and porn addiction. For
more information about joining our group or attending
our next retreat, visit successfuladdict.com.
And now, enjoy the rest of the episode.
(01:52):
Hello everybody. I am here with doctor Corey
Allen. Corey
has a kick ass podcast.
Sexy Marriage Radio, isn't that isn't that the
proper title of it? Yep. Yep. And, dude,
I,
I was on your show and I knew
it was an honor, mainly because I disliked
you as a human being. I thought you
were there's just, you know, there's just a
(02:12):
lot of bad help out there and bad
advice. And so when I meet somebody who
cares and actually has the brains to give
people good advice,
I I I just love hanging around those
people. I would come to find out later,
dude, your podcast is a big deal, man.
Good for you. I was I was looking
it up and it was like, holy smokes.
This is, this is this podcast has a
(02:32):
lot of, listeners. How long have you been
doing it?
So let's see. The week tomorrow's episode,
as we're recording this, is 07/2021.
So Hey. Thirteen
years. Yeah. Over fourteen years.
And just so everybody knows, it is not
a sex addiction.
It is a it is largely a marriage,
(02:53):
relationship podcast. That's really what it is.
And so just so you guys know, it's,
when you go over there and listen to
it, which a lot not a lot of
you are,
it is gonna be a relationship podcast, not
a
betrayal,
sexual betrayal, infidelity, sex addiction, porn addiction. Yeah.
We've covered we've covered that many a time
because we go anywhere relationships go, which that
(03:13):
is an aspect of relationship and dynamics for
certain. Yeah. And so so just as everybody
knows, it's a but I but I like
it because,
your I vouch, you know, for everybody listening,
I vouch for Corey and his podcast. He's
he's a brilliant guy. He vets he was
very, you know, when him and I met,
he was very,
you know, very strict about, hey. This is
(03:34):
what's gonna go. And if you're gonna be
on my show, you're in honor of my
audience in this way. So I vouch for
him and,
guess an information that he provides. So let's
dive into the topic today, which is, I
think this is a cool topic because, there's
a lot of my listeners who are very
early on in their addiction,
process, but I think this this topic is
still gonna be applicable to the people who
(03:56):
are still in crisis.
But the guys who are later, you know,
post, you know, a year out, two years
out, three years out, you're really gonna resonate
with this topic. And
it's the idea, like, why be married at
all? You know? It's and I think a
lot of us don't really
guess that when we're in a
functional happy marriage.
But, Corey,
(04:16):
like, what about now? Like, so I've sexually
betrayed my wife.
Here we are. I've blown her trust out
of the water.
I've lied to her multiple times. Instead of
getting immediately sober, I still you know, there
was some trickling out of some truth. You
know, I I just royally screwed that up.
Right? A lot of guys can resonate with
so now here we are. The marriage has,
it looks different.
Looks
different.
(04:37):
You know, at the beginning phase, she's got
two feet out. Now with with time, she
starts to get one foot back in and
then eventually, once we enter phase three, she
gets two feet back in and we are
we're committed.
But, again, just because she has committed to
the idea of giving me a chance and
seeing if we can heal,
that does not mean the marriage is in
good shape. I would say it's I would
(04:58):
say phase two is almost
is just as hard, if not harder than
phase one because you start
feeling a lot more,
of the sadness rather than her rage. But
my point of all of this is,
Corey, why be married at all? Like, that,
you know, that that question crosses probably both
the men and the women, you know, the
betrayed partners and the cheater.
(05:19):
Like, here we are in this in this
disastrous relationship where I don't even trust my
husband. And if you're the husband, I'm in
a relationship where I'm not trusted.
Gosh. There's there's moments where you start to
think, you know, should I just walk away
from this whole thing and and be single?
Well,
and foremost, I think there's an element of
recognizing
we're always in relationships.
(05:40):
Always
in a relationship of some kind, of some
shape, of some form. I mean, you and
I have a relationship now, Roland. We've met
each other three times now. So that's a
relationship.
So it's it's an element of I think
it's a foundational component of us as people
is
is we are born in relational
(06:02):
beings.
That's that's the way it goes. Like, I
think one of the phrases I used came
came across years ago was the idea of
we were,
created in togetherness, born into separateness, and constantly
trying to get back to togetherness.
And and that's the way it goes. And
so I think as part of our DNA,
marriage holds a different value to me of
(06:22):
importance
because of the design of it. I think
marriage is designed to help us,
grow up, period. That's the only reason it
exists. It's not happily ever after.
It's not the the only place I can
have sex. I mean, because if if I've
got a sex addiction, you know you can
have sex anywhere, everywhere, whatever,
any point, but it exposes things in us
(06:45):
that we don't find any other relationships
that will do the that have the pressure
to do that.
So,
I think of it through this lens that
if marriage is designed to help me grow
up, it makes me a better me by
exposing me to me so that your question
of why even be in a relationship.
Well, I'm always in a relationship if for
(07:06):
nothing else than with myself.
Mhmm. And I need to take into account
that because
even the phraseology of how you set this
up, Roland, was
all contingent on the betrayed spouse, the wife.
She's two feet out. Now she's one foot
in, and now she's both feet in. Well,
where is his feet? Mhmm.
On the whole thing, has he ever been
both feet in?
(07:27):
Right? Is he one foot, both feet out
in? You know? So it's an element of
we sell ourselves short by not recognizing
my culpability
in everything that goes on in life,
and rather than thinking of it as I
I do this with my clients
when,
someone comes in and they've been betrayed. And
(07:47):
the betrayed spouse will say inevitably, how could
you do that to me? And it's like,
no. They didn't do anything to you.
You you weren't there. You're collateral damage.
It's it's incredibly rough. It's a different path,
and it's and it's an honored one, invalid
one.
But what what you really need to be
asking yourself, betrayed spouse, is
how do you wanna be in a relationship
with somebody that would do that to themselves?
(08:07):
Mhmm.
Because now you're starting to look at who
is this person I'm actually with. And and
if I ask myself that
as one that's gone down a betrayed journey,
I was the betrayer
on an emotional affair level and a pornography
level. Mhmm. And so
if I when I ask myself, wait a
I I'm capable of doing this to myself.
(08:29):
What does that say about my relationship and
how I live with myself here?
I have a different way to start in
engaging in my world
by taking on myself better
and then having a relationship that
gets the benefits of that. Mhmm. Because, you
know, you you you you and I have
talked a bunch about the the addictive
(08:50):
world out there and the help world and
how a lot of it can become this.
Well, how do I just maintain a good
relationship? What do I do to act right,
quote, unquote? And that's the worst advice there
is on how do I act right.
None of us ever do,
just to varying degrees.
So
so it's it's really starting to grow myself
(09:11):
up into being somebody
I would wanna be in a relationship with.
Mhmm.
And that's always honor,
driven by character,
integrity,
and living in line with my values.
Because when I do that, I now then
become trustworthy.
Mhmm.
And I become somebody that can be seen
(09:31):
as consistent
and engaged. And then when I'm not and
I'm out of line with my character,
I own it, and I get back in
line. Because we all do it on micro
levels. Right. But with what your mission is
on major levels that where we do this,
where it's a huge incongruence.
And we all have them, and so
relationships
expose that in us.
(09:53):
And then I have a chance to really
become a better person.
Because the other thing I love about marriage
is it takes me places I can't go
on my own. Mhmm. Mhmm.
It's a it's it's
the thing that I was thinking about that
as you were talking was,
so I've been divorced,
twice before my marriage now, and I'm a
young guy. And, I have so much, like,
(10:14):
shame and embarrassment around that. I did I
hated telling people that because of the the
judgment that may come from it. Right? But
it's funny. I think back as you were
talking about, I think back to it.
I exited both of those relationships
out of self preservation.
I didn't know that at the time.
(10:35):
I,
I just I knew that there was changes
that were going to come in the future
subconsciously,
and, I didn't want to
I liked my grandiose,
view of myself. I didn't like
and so the marriage was fine as long
as they thought that I was the man.
But the I started getting
hints that they found out that I wasn't
(10:57):
as awesome as I once was,
I was like, well, screw you. Like, you're
my wife. You're supposed to you're supposed to
you know, so that was my narrative. So
marriage ended. Right. Next marriage, same thing. For
better and for worse. Right? This is my
worst. You're supposed to accept my worst.
Yeah. Exactly. Right? So then it's like, okay.
Here I am, time, and same thing. I
was like, alright. I'm gonna bring the guns
blazing this time. I had more money. My
(11:18):
house was bigger. It's like, okay. I'm I'm
gonna I'm gonna really come in and and
and and kill it this time and be
extra impressive. Right? So same thing, cast her
under my spell, cast everyone under my spell.
But here's the problem with spells is if
someone's living in your home with you twenty
four seven,
Mhmm. It's really hard to cast spells on
people who live in your house. And so
(11:39):
eventually, there gets to be these glimpses of
you without your spell casting, your insecurities, your
character flaws, your anger, your, you know, whatever
whatever the other, kind of less attractive trait,
child childish childish trait.
But as you were saying all that, that's
what I thought of was
here's what happened different this time. When I
(11:59):
betrayed Lauren,
I I gave she was the person I
gave all of me. I really did. I
I I we'd had conversations. She'd she really
you know, that cheesy saying, she made me
a better person. She made me wanna be
better. I I I I cared about things
that I never cared about before when I
was single. Right? So as I'm hearing this,
(12:19):
I think two people and everybody listening probably
has somebody that you guys all know that
person who's been
married three times, four times, five times, six
times.
And if they keep exiting every time that
they get to that point,
you know, this is a general statement and
probably a judgment, but, I don't know. You
guys know those people. They they haven't really
(12:40):
grown a whole lot from a a self
awareness standpoint, self actualization standpoint. You know, if
you keep exiting those relationships when they get
to that point. So that was the thing
that came to mind was
I think of myself when I kept getting
out Mhmm. And I think of other people
who I know who keep getting out. And
it's so true what you said.
There's a big difference between the person who
(13:03):
is in marriage. And then, again, I'm not
demonizing divorce. There's a time and a place
for that. So, but, you know, the person
who's committed to marriage
and wants to be in another one, you
know, the they get divorced, they're like, oh,
I wanna be in another one. The guys
you know, a lot of guys in this
area, they're like, should I just get out
and be single,
and and never get married?
And I want one thing I wanted to
(13:24):
speak to you too is,
just to just to
further anchor why we're wired for connection. I
have my description. I'd love for you to
explain that because I I
therapists throw that out very often. Oh, humans
are wired for connection. We're wired to be,
in relationship.
Can you just give a few, like, really
tangible examples of that? Absolutely. I mean, I
(13:46):
I look at this through a lens of,
reflected sense of self and a solid sense
of self.
Right? Other validated self validated, whatever kind of
phraseology you wanna use to do therapist speak
for a
So if the best example I think of
with this Roland is the idea of when
I was in middle school and you try
on different mannerisms,
(14:07):
behaviors,
but it's such a pressure cooker sardine can
environment that you can't go too far out
Mhmm. Because it's it's too risky, but you
do care about what people think.
That's a reflected sense of self. Right? If
I if I work out and I'm feeling
kinda good and strong and I put on
the shirt that's a smedium, so it shows
(14:28):
off the muscles a little more,
and I get, dude, you're looking great. Well,
you know what kind of shirts I'm likely
gonna be wearing then because of what I
had coming back at me, which
all of ourselves
are based and built part partially from that.
Mhmm. Then the other side of the equation
is, what do I have inherently in me
(14:49):
that is defining of me,
that that makes me unique, that makes me
special,
that makes that that's my superpowers, if you
will. That's my nuances,
if you will. That's that's part of who
I quintessentially
am. And we constantly go back and between
these things. And so relationships,
(15:10):
play a role
of
not only helping us refine who we are,
but also challenging us to smooth out the
rough edges. I mean, that's the one thing
I hear from a lot of people that
were single for a while, and then they
get into a serious relationship. And they're like,
I never really knew how selfish and lazy
I was. Mhmm. Or I never really knew
how opinionated
(15:31):
I am. Or you know, because we always
surround ourselves with the social media is a
great
description of what we do in our lives
also in some ways in the sense that
we surround ourselves in echo chambers. Mhmm. Yeah.
Yeah. Except for in marriage.
I know. And you talk to Democrats in
a marriage at all. It's no law. Democrats
(15:52):
are always like, I don't know where all
these Republicans are because I don't know. I've
never seen a single one. And the Republicans
are like, I don't know where all these
Democrats are. They're single yeah. Exactly like that.
Right? But we don't we don't know
ourselves
well
because our spouse we don't have somebody that's
constantly trying to be themselves too because
(16:12):
the pressure of a relationship is, I'll go
along to get along for a time. Mhmm.
And then I'll finally have to start standing
up because it starts going against parts of
me.
Right? It's like, you know what? No. I'm
gonna have to speak up here. You know
what? No. That's not tolerable or gonna have
to draw a line here or something because
it's a threshold of myself has been crossed.
Mhmm. It's not just the other. And so
(16:35):
there's an element of
relationships play such a vital part of our
lives
because it's part of what helps us become
better people
primarily. And then the other side of it
is, most of us, when we when we're
honest, there's parts of us that we know
aren't refined and we don't like about ourselves.
(16:55):
So I wanna escape that. And where else
do we often go escape that from? Or
where do we go to escape that most
is relationships.
Right? So I I just focus on them.
I can just serve and honor and pursue
and whatever
them. And it's like, wait. Hold on. We
can't escape ourselves. Because I'm hearing
in in your story of the okay. Multiple
(17:16):
marriages.
One of my very clients was this. And
she was an older lady, and she was
on her at the end of her marriage.
And this lady was probably in her seventies.
And and so she came in because she
was like,
I just gotta help help me find better
men. Mhmm.
Right? And so my response to her took
her off guard because I said, how about
let's talk about the common denominator in her
(17:38):
in this story?
I mean, it's you. So
how about we talk about you? Mhmm. And
what could be going on with you
in the threads of your relationship dynamic and
what it is you could be trying to
run from? And she didn't like me at
but then then she came around and was
like, no. That's good. Because it's realizing
we spend and this is the addiction world
(18:01):
largely
is either I'm trying
to puff myself up and feel better about
myself or I'm trying to avoid something about
myself, and there's a way to anesthetize
that. And
and if you think about it,
we're constantly trying to do it. It's it's
still relationship.
So
to me,
the key to
(18:22):
better,
more whole,
vibrant living
is deep, genuine, real relationships. I know that's
what your mesh mission is,
is authentic vulnerable relationships is the is the
key
to to making what life actually can become
even better than that. Mhmm. Which is which
(18:42):
is challenging in this dynamic. Right? Because
the if you look at what creates intimate
relationships, you know,
Dan Drake and, the Rav Smiths put together
this cool little pyramid called the intimacy pyramid.
And,
in it, there's honesty, trust,
vulnerability,
and safety.
And and, not in that order, but they
(19:04):
build up. And you need, you know, you
need the safety, you need the honesty, you
need the trust to create a platform for
vulnerability.
And then when you add the vulnerability to
this safe container, it creates this intimate connection.
Right? And I I like that pyramid because
it's it's a it's a good way to
visualize it. But,
But but, Corey, you come in here, and
(19:25):
here you go. You betray your wife,
and,
you have this very new dynamic when you
do that. And
it is very and and here's usually a
bunch of men who,
have issues with trust, have issues with,
they all think they're connected because they know
(19:46):
all these people and everybody likes them, and
they speak on stage, and they run these
big companies. And so, you know, me, myself,
I was under that delusion. You know, when
I heard that I had an intimacy disorder
and then I had intimacy anorexia, and I
was like, no. You guys got the wrong
guy. Like, you that that is not me.
Then I came to realize,
okay. And I start to look the belief
(20:06):
system that people like that have. I'm like,
yeah. I
I have that belief system.
And so can I have that can I
have that belief system of distrust of people,
not trusting anyone besides myself to get my
needs met? Can I believe those things
and have really deep meaningful
relationships?
You know, I don't think so. Right? I
(20:27):
think I think you have to turn some
of those off to be able to invite
some of that in. So but my question
to you is,
so here we are. We've done that to
our partners.
Now we're supposed to have this very vulnerable,
authentic relationship,
in a
very hostile environment. What do you say to
that?
(20:47):
Well, so then it starts to become
how do you approach
that environment
to where if the goal is just to
lower the hostility
you've already lost, both of you have.
Right? Because it's it's getting to where
realizing we need to face the things. I
need to face the things I've been avoiding
all along.
(21:07):
And it's not just her. It's also me.
Mhmm. It's also
you know,
understand. I use this with my clients a
lot in the sense of,
okay. So something's happened where there's been a
betrayal or a moral failure of some sort.
Right? You're you're out of line with your
character.
K. Good.
That that's good. That's now you see what
you're capable of.
(21:28):
And then now we'll see what you're capable
of.
Right? Because it it's it's really helpful information.
I mean, on my emotional betrayal,
I never thought going in I was capable
of that because it's not something that just
happens real quickly. It's it's a slow gradual,
oh, okay. Oh, this oh, oh, oh, and
then, woah. Oh, here we go.
(21:49):
You're already way past the line. Mhmm. But
looking back at it, you realize, okay. Now
I know what I'm capable of. So what
do I need to do to put in
place
the the safeguards, if you will, the structures,
if you will,
because I know what I'm capable of? And
then at the same time, you start to
see how do I actually face this. Because
(22:10):
if I don't go through a process
of true renewal, if you will, or refining
of my own self,
it's just a dressing up
what was
nothing where nothing's changed.
And who sees through that the fastest?
Mhmm. Yeah. You're right. A spouse. Mhmm. Yeah.
A spouse knows.
(22:31):
But if it's something fundamentally
different where it's a order change, like, it's
a deep belief
value level
change,
that's gonna get seen too. Not as quick
as we want it to. That's that's the
problem that you probably run into also. It's
like, god. It's been three years. It's been
why can't they? Okay. Hold on. Because now
(22:52):
you're still dealing with hurt and their own
stuff
that's being exposed here. Because it's not just
you. Mhmm.
That's the main purpose or or or main
point here. It's them. And so it's realizing
there's so many things that have gone on
concurrently
that we have to realize, k, what's actually
(23:12):
at risk here for each of us Mhmm.
To have to face ourselves. Because if we
do it right, in my opinion,
I turn into
my own crucible, if you will, to coin
a phrase from doctor Snar, who I did
a bunch of my training under.
And I grow and refine myself, and I
come out more, you know, more solid. Well,
my process
(23:34):
by design
would almost encourage, if not force, my wife
to have to do the same for her
life,
not just in relationship to me.
Because if I come out and I'm more
honest and genuine about some things, maybe I'd
keep in kept hidden about desires or wishes
or longings or whatever
because it was improper
(23:55):
or too out there or whatever. And now
I start bringing that out. Well, that's gonna
really pressure her,
which now is gonna expose things in her
to have to face about, hold on. It's
so much easier to keep it as the
addict world of, well, you're just an addict.
You're just a pervert. You're just a
well, k. K. But it's another thing to
say, yeah. That's parts of me. Absolutely.
(24:16):
Mhmm. You're right.
And now what do we do? Right? Because
now it's now we're actually having to face
what's really going on rather than just pain.
Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. It's a
and this is where I think it's a
lot easier, especially in the sex addiction world
and betrayal world. It's a lot easier for
you guys to make the individual headway that
you need to make
(24:38):
in your peer groups than it is in
the relationship. And it's a you know, when
you don't have these skills,
especially the guys, I mean, it's a that
environment is a tough place to practice.
And, you know, so so get your reps
in. And that's you know, and when they
say peer support too, you know, guys, it's
not just going I mean, 12 step is
not designed for connection.
(24:59):
When you read it, it is designed
when you look at it, the program is
designed to work 12 steps. That's what the
container is for. If you look at it,
it is a place for you to come
together with a bunch of other guys and
work the steps together and then hire a,
partner with a sponsor
to help you with the steps. Sponsors are
not supposed to give you advice. It actually
says in the handbook that that is prohibited.
(25:21):
They're supposed to help you go through the
steps.
So just for you guys who are still
struggling with this,
if 12 step is where you are getting
all of your
connection,
I mean, when you when all you can
say back to the other guy is, thanks,
Corey. Thanks, Roland.
That's not connection.
(25:41):
Right? That's that's
it's a safe place for you to be
able to share so that you don't have
shame. But, again, it's not in it's not
an environment created for connections. If you guys
want to connect,
meet those same guys outside of the group.
So, hey, do you guys wanna have breakfast?
Do you guys wanna go to dinner? Do
you you know, the connection's gonna happen where
you guys can have a very normal dialogue
where they're allowed to say more than thanks
(26:03):
with your name. Right? And so,
the question I had was,
I'm gonna hold on. Before you get there,
I wanna let's jump in real quick on
on an aspect within the dynamic of marriage,
though.
Because a lot of times what happens after,
whatever is discovered or disclosed.
Right? So let's say it's you're completely clean
(26:25):
in the sense of I've been transparent.
Here's here's here's what's going on, And it
truly is a element of what you want
to do is,
reestablish a relationship. Esther I love Esther Perel's
wording on this is the marriage we have
is over. Now it's a question of do
we want another one together. Mhmm. Correct. And
it's not that formal, we're gonna actually have
(26:46):
a divorce and then get remarried. But I
have to look at it as a a
new chapter Mhmm. Is definitively starting.
And
within that process,
what most often can happen is
the the underbelly, the shadow motivations we've got
are still there.
Mhmm. I've just started to clean them up,
and I don't go out to as far
(27:06):
of an extreme
to get things met
or medicated.
But I still got them. Right? Because I
we all medicate in some way, shape, or
form for life's ills and fears and insecurities.
So,
whenever I'm actually doing better
and then the dynamic in the marriage changes
to where she still is not trusting. That's
(27:28):
the that's the buzzword that's thrown around all
the time of I need to be able
to trust you. My answer to that is
to do what?
Right? Because it's so broad brush. It's not
it's not nuanced enough
to where instead, it's like, I need to
be willing to have the risk
and choose,
am I willing to possibly get hurt again?
(27:49):
Mhmm. That's really what she's facing. Mhmm. And
then I also need to have the willingness
to ask the question of,
am I with somebody that cares about the
pain I have to go through to choose
this? Mhmm. Because if I start to see
it that way because I came home five
years after
my disclosure
of an emotional betrayal
and my wife, it was right around the
(28:10):
anniversary of the day of disclosing.
And so I came in, had totally no
idea of the of the anniversary,
and she was in a really bad spot.
I'm just really down that day because it
had just hit her, and she's just really
wrestling even though we were on a huge
upward trajectory at this point.
And she's I'm like, you okay? She just
read it. She's like, no. I'm really not.
(28:31):
I can't believe you did that.
And I was in a better spot at
this point because my answer to her back
was, I can't either.
Rather than my normal defensive
avoid,
let me explain.
But look how far we've gone. You know?
Look at look at all this kind of
stuff. And and instead, it was truly a,
(28:51):
yeah, you're right. Because what I wanted to
try to do, looking back at it, was
how do I make room for your pain?
Because it's valid. It's legitimate.
And it's not about me even though it
is.
Part me, you know, partly,
if not a lot, because of me. But
it's still
true compassion, true depth of relationship
(29:14):
has room for both people even when their
experience
crowds out mine.
Right? So it's realizing that's what's the struggle
of deep relationships
in marriage, particularly,
is getting to the point where,
hold on. This isn't about how do I
just make sure we're okay. This is about
(29:35):
how am I alongside
you to to the points that are gonna
be hurt.
You know, I could be hurt. I can
feel that pain
and and walk alongside it, but also have
the courage enough to say, you know what?
Hold on.
I still feel like I'm getting kicked in
the teeth for something
that I've owned.
(29:55):
And I don't know what we need to
do about that completely, but this is this
you know, because this is where it starts
to flip,
where
it it starts to become
problematic on both sides of the equation because
one person hangs on to that wound
and then weaponizes it just like I could
hang on to an insecurity
or an unmet something and weaponize it. And
(30:18):
that's the underbelly of us gets uncovered in
in this. And so when I start to
see it through a different lens, I then
have a different empowerment
to okay. Wait.
I'm really handling me much better here.
So Well, it's a it's what what you
said is you see this in you see
this in the sex addiction world a lot
because what will happen is,
(30:38):
a lot of guys, you know, it's not
a small list of things that they've done.
It's a it's a big list. You know,
mine was uncomfortably bigger than I thought it
was gonna be. And when I sat down
and wrote it down, I'm like, whoo. Uh-oh.
Right. You know? And so
but here's what happens, right, is,
in that initial phase, we we we never
(31:00):
as the as the cheating partner, we never
act the way they want us to act.
We're we're in tons of shock.
We're scared.
You know, so we're not we're not quite
showing up in that way that they really
want us to show up, which is which
is, fair and understandable on both sides.
But here's the sad part, right, is especially
in the sex addiction space, they're like, woah.
He's
(31:21):
hired, you know, 19,
prostitutes, went to all these massage parlors, went
you know, their reaction you know, tune to
one night stands, slept with this one coworker
on it. It's like,
all of her friends, her parents, everybody, hey.
You need to you need to leave this
guy. You need to get a divorce. This
guy is this guy, like,
why why are you even considering staying with
him? Right? So,
(31:42):
but she wants to stay. That that's that's
where she's at right now. And so but
look at that. Right? So,
a, you didn't quite show her what she
wanted. She didn't quite see the the the
the pain you feeling her pain. Then she
goes to her friends and her friends are
all like,
hey. You know? Then there's always a couple
of the friends. Right? Sometimes it's the parents
who are like, hey. You know what? Give
(32:03):
them a chance. And, you know, sometimes their
parents, like, belittle it. They're like, hey. We
all we all make mistakes. Right? So, typically,
this is how it goes. Basically, they're not
really getting the response from any of the
parties in their life. And the reason I'm
bringing this up is
it is not uncommon for them to weaponize
the situation because they felt like they didn't
(32:24):
get taken seriously. And my heart aches for
them because they're absolutely
spot on. They were not taken. It was
not honored. It was not honored by the
husband. It was not honored by their parents,
by his parents, by the peers, by the
and so I I get that. But it's
tough, Corey. They get stuck
sometimes in this, I need to stick up
for how bad this was because no one
(32:46):
takes it seriously.
And, again, that ends up getting becoming problematic
because
now we're sticking up for how much this
hurts rather than
trying to heal. Right? And so it's it's
this murky it's this murky space, and I
think what makes it extra murky is
because you did it
to her and because it is so ugly
(33:06):
and horrible and,
they're
you know, it's very hard to tell somebody
to, hey. You need to you need to
kinda come off this. It's it's scary for
everybody, even the therapist, to tell the person
that they need to maybe come off at
a skoch or we're gonna stay stuck here.
That whole aspect mess messes I I see
it time and time and time again. These
(33:27):
these women have been bullied into a position
where they feel like they have to stick
up for what's been done to them. And
it's really sad because it starts to become
the very problem that prevents the couple from
getting forward.
Well and the undercurrents
of that also are part of what helps
create the problems in life anyway. Yeah. Sure.
(33:49):
So so it's it's coming to grips with
most of the time when you're talking about
issues that come up in marriage.
They just get revealed
because they were already there.
Right? That it's it's an insecurity. It's an
uncertainty.
It's a I'm I'm too withdrawn. I'm too
aloof. I'm too judgmental. I'm too reactive. I'm
in a and these are all subtleties and
(34:11):
on a continuum. You know? They're not typically
giant because
we meet, fall in love with, and stay
with people that make sense.
If they do life at a different level
than I do, it is a short lived
relationship,
period, if it's a relationship at all.
But the people that make sense are the
ones that I have a potential of a
(34:32):
long term relationship with, and it's because they
see life and operate in life largely similarly
to me in some way. And there's nuances
throughout all of this and how it plays
out and manifest itself are different. But fundamentally
speaking,
there's a there's so much similarities. It's like,
okay. I can get that because it's it's
it mirrors my family of origin.
(34:52):
Right? I either marry my parents or the
exact opposite of my parents,
which that's fundamentally the same
if you think about it. 180 degrees from
crazy is just another form of crazy. Mhmm.
So it's it's seeing it as
there's there's nothing going wrong in the system
in that regard. It's just exposing things. Now
(35:12):
it comes down to and that's why I
love the idea of separating it out to
where it wasn't done to her.
She's collateral damage from it. Mhmm.
And now if she starts to look at
it and can have a more,
self soothed,
rational,
as well as taking into account her emotions
(35:34):
view
of what went down and what goes on,
then she likely would be wise to have
some questions of, okay. Who exactly
is this guy?
Because we often tie it into the whole,
yeah, but I wanna keep and that's the
story of the relationship. That's the story of
how it began, you know, when we all
met each other's marketing departments Mhmm. And sales
(35:55):
guys.
You know, that that's the beginning of every
relationship. You meet the sales office and the
marketing departments.
And then when you get into it in
marriage, it's the back office and Mhmm. The
managements.
Right? The CEOs, the people that well, actually,
it's the back office. That's people that are
really running every shop anyway.
So
but it's like, okay. Who are these people?
Because then you get caught in when, like,
(36:17):
when a wife is caught in this dilemma
of,
wait a I got parents saying this thing,
friends saying this thing, he's saying this other
thing, a therapist saying nobody's saying the same
thing.
Well, they don't know the whole story like
she does. Mhmm.
So if she can figure out how to
settle settle herself down
and take into account what everybody else is
(36:37):
saying, which is always usually projections,
you know, because we we respond out of
things out of our own fear, hurt, or
pain.
Like, oh, if he did that to me,
blah blah, that's nothing about her. That's about
what if what is going on with me.
So
and then I can maybe have a a
a more discerning view
of, okay, who is this guy? Mhmm. And
(36:58):
then more importantly,
who will this guy be? Mhmm. Because if
he's genuine,
I'll see it. Mhmm. I'll know it. And
if he's not,
the spidey senses go off. Mhmm. And it
all falls back into place. It's like, oh,
okay.
I get it. I I you've shown me
who you are. Thank you. Mhmm. Now I
know. And then I can make my decision.
(37:20):
Mhmm. Well, it's a it's you know, that's
why a lot of guys are checking off
the boxes and not in actual
good recovery is not stopping the behaviors. Good
recovery is going into that back office and
saying, who the hell runs the you know?
Yeah. Who are these people, and do I
want them do I Yeah. Want them here.
(37:41):
Right? That's Good recovery is a guy that's
able to ask himself the question of, okay.
As it stands now,
would I want to be in a marriage
with me? Mhmm. Mhmm. Will I want to
marry me? Yeah. And the answer to that
question should be yes and no.
Right?
Always.
It's if if it's ever gonna go one
(38:02):
way where it's definitive one way, it better
be a no
rather than if it's yes, you're diluting and
you're blind to yourself. It's a situation.
You know what's funny? I have actually never
heard that. I like that because here's the
thing. So, like, if I'm gonna I'll I'll
be vulnerable with the audience and,
share share so, like, when you ask me
that,
it's a yes or no. The yes is,
(38:23):
oh, man. This is gonna be a blast.
This guy is a great time.
I love his outlook. He's everything's so light.
Nothing's so serious.
You know, he's well traveled. He well, you
know, so there's all these great things. And
he's got a desperate,
insatiable need for attention and validation, which just
scares the heck out of me because Yeah.
When I know be around that when I
(38:45):
know I'm gonna be collateral damage from that
kind of a relationship. Yeah. Yep. When he
when he is constantly
not okay without
people,
some of which being women,
telling him how awesome he is and making
these, you know, comments, gestures,
sometimes even an invitation or a proposition. Right?
(39:06):
Like, if he's living for that, which that
part of me is absolutely living for that,
would I wanna be with me? And the
answer is no. Knowing what I know about
what I've done and what I'm capable of,
I I would not wanna marry me. Right?
Now, obviously, this is pre recovery. Now post
recovery,
I'll be honest, those things are not gone.
(39:27):
My instinct,
every time I see a a a a
a very, very, very attractive woman is, did
she see me? Did she look at me
and give me that look? And I I
do not wanna think that. I do not
want that. That's not healthy for me. That's
not healthy for her. It's not healthy for
my wife. It's not healthy for even if
I didn't wasn't in this relationship and I
(39:47):
got into another relationship, I wouldn't want that
for that relationship, and I wouldn't want this
done to me on the flip side.
But that's that's that's the that's the battle
that we're fighting. And I am now I'm
honest with my wife about those parts of
me, and that's where we're kind of in
this together. That's back to kind of that
Esther Perel quote. Hey. The old marriage is
dead. So now that you're with a guy
like this, what's that mean? Right? What are
(40:09):
the new rules? Yeah. That's the that's being
honest, but it's also important, I think, Roland,
to realize. That's being honest with myself in
the sense that the the
I don't like this phraseology, but I this
what comes to mind. The skill set I
would use
to get glances at people that were inappropriate
are also the same kind of skill sets
I can use to not do that stuff.
(40:31):
Yeah. Correct.
Right? Because you see the girl walk in
and it's like, she is not wearing enough,
and it immediately registers. Okay. Well, I can
either position myself to get more views,
or
I know who's I know what's coming. Why
don't I position myself better to be in
line with who I wanna be? Yeah. It's
the it's the the addicts, they say play
(40:52):
the tape. Right? Like, play the tape through.
You know where this goes. Like, you know,
so if that's the kind of guy and
you keep doing that and doing hamstring curls
be even though it wasn't even leg day
so that you can get a you know,
do you really wanna be like like, play
that tape through and see where that
Yeah. Because that's the whole thing is that's
the stuff I can keep hidden to other
(41:12):
people. Mhmm. I can't hide it to myself.
Mhmm. Mhmm. And so when I use that
as a litmus test I mean, I ask
myself this most every day of what I
wanna be married to me. And the other
question is if I was married to me,
what would I want me to be working
on?
Yeah. That would be a good one. Yeah.
Because it's like, hang on, dude. You're you're
(41:34):
slacking here, and nobody knows I'm slacking except
me. So it's like, k.
How about I actually do something about that
rather than just expecting my wife to swallow
it
and be pleased Yeah. Or something rather no.
Because that's the part that truly is the
undeveloped.
I need to refine it and make it
(41:55):
what it is. And, again, it's not about
perfection. It's to me, it's about I know
both sides of me.
Mhmm. Yeah. And I don't let one wreak
wreak havoc
because it's unchecked or I'm blind to it.
Because if I see it and do nothing
about it, that's a different level of cruelty.
Mhmm. It's a it it is. It's a
you know, they call or they you know,
(42:15):
one of the words I like from doctor
Manwala, he calls it,
integrity abuse.
Yeah. Right? And you can intake you can,
you know, the thing about integrity abuse is
it abuses two people. It abuses your wife.
Sure. But, you know, you violating your own
integrity,
that should bother you too. I mean, that,
you know, that that should you shouldn't be
okay with that. You know? If it doesn't
bother you, then it's not integrity. Yeah. Exactly.
(42:36):
And that which I I I appreciate you
bringing that up because
there is
people think integrity and honesty are are the
same thing. They are not. Right? Honesty is
telling truth. Integrity
is a a commitment
to, like, I am I am this is
this is who I am. I don't bend
this.
It doesn't matter what the circumstances. I'm committed
(42:58):
to this is this is the truth, my
truth.
Now your truth can change. You know, you
can learn something and be like, oh, okay.
I don't wanna believe that anymore. This is
truer for me. So and now you're integris
to that.
Right? And then it changes again. Now your
integrity is to that. It's
where people
what's not fair to yourself and for everybody
else is when that definition changes depending on
(43:20):
who you're around. Right? Like, oh, integrity
was this when I'm on a family vacation,
but now I'm on a work vacation,
where I have no GPS tracking on my
phone. I can basically do whatever I want.
Now I have a new definition of integrity
for this. Right? Come on. That's that's not
how it works. So my my final question
in
(43:41):
why
why relationships? You know? There are guys without
question listening to this who are like, man,
screw this. Like, I I can't I can't
do this anymore. I'm I'm
I'm gonna get out. I'm just gonna I'm
gonna I'm gonna do the single life. I'm
gonna do,
I'm just not gonna get married again. What
do you say to guys who state that,
who state that case? Because I do. I
(44:02):
hear it. I hear it, unfortunately,
often.
Well, I'm I'm not gonna talk anybody out
of wanting to be single if that's what
they wanna be.
I mean, that
okay. There's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing
broken
with that.
I I use the equation though
of
and this is my values that I'm gonna
(44:24):
based off of this off of Roland is
I believe in marriage and a monogamous
relationship
because it takes you places
sexually.
You can't go
otherwise. Because there is
without fail
repeatedly
over the last
two decades, I've been following this. I've come
across three different times where they've updated this
(44:46):
study.
The most sexually satisfied people
are those in long term relationships.
And those the times the the the median
age
of that,
you wanna guess what that is?
Oh, gosh.
51?
(45:07):
55. That's pretty close. Right. So I'm two
years from from it right now at the
time of this recording. I'm really excited about
that because it's like, wait. I still got
more. You're primed.
Because there's an element of when we age
and we have a knownness
with our spouse,
there's a different level of what goes on
(45:27):
sexually with each other. Because it's not about
what you're doing, it's who you are in
the doing it together.
And as we age, we also oftentimes
become much more comfortable in our own skin.
Mhmm. For sure, women do. I mean, that's
why women's prime, quote, unquote, sexually speaking, is
in their forties and fifties
overall just because it's like they kinda know
who they are at that point. And there's
(45:48):
really not a much shame
or inhibition in some ways. They still got
things they gotta face, and it's not like
it's a huge free for all for all
women. But it's still there's a different kind
of prowess to them Mhmm. Than somebody who's
trying to figure who they are out. Mhmm.
And guys are the same way. I don't
know if we ever really figure out no
guy will say this, but I don't know
if we ever really figure ourselves out. But
(46:11):
we start to get to a point where
it's like, yeah, I'm more comfortable. And, unfortunately,
for a lot of guys, it happens when
the the sexual prime
hormonally
is starting to fade. But it's like it
doesn't matter at that point because now it's
a true
joining of spirits, tasting the essences of each
other
that's so much more profound
(46:32):
than just an act. Mhmm.
It's a what what I would say to
that that
for the guys
because I agree with I agree with everything
you're saying
except for
what if you don't know what sex is?
And now
I've had a ton of intercourse.
I have not I don't know if I
have had sex yet, to be completely honest
(46:54):
with you. Yeah. I think my wife are
getting and I are getting close.
You know, I've definitely I think I've had
maybe a little couple sensations
from what
I've grown to understand sex might feel like.
This this really,
kinda like scary
closeness almost. It's this it's this it's a
very, you know, vulnerable is the the word
(47:16):
to describe it. It's this
it's this feeling that I I get with
her sometimes when we're having real sex that
part of me wonders,
you know, I've got a bunch to I
got a lot to lose.
I've got I could contract something from her.
She could she could be sleeping with me
and then be sleeping with somebody else. Right?
Imagine how these this is why these women
feel the way they feel. Right?
(47:37):
But I do. I've had a lot of
intercourse, and I don't think I've had a
lot of sex slash maybe don't know if
I've had sex yet. And so I think
that's
the hang up for, I think, me and
even a lot of other guys is Mhmm.
If I don't know what I'm missing out
on,
then it actually is quite if intercourse is
the pinnacle,
(47:57):
then I can have that elsewhere. Right? And
so I think Oh, sure. That's kind of
the that's the thing that the only not
the only reason, but one of the main
reasons I'm hanging in there in a really
big way is I've grown in in recovery.
I have grown to understand that there are
aspects of sex and relationship and just intimacy
that I have not experienced yet. And I
(48:18):
know that if I don't get into a
long term relationship and what better one than
this? What better one than the one who
knows everything about me? She knows
everything
about me now. So what better environment than
to get
that thing that everyone talks about that's just
so wonderful?
What better place to get that than from
(48:39):
the woman who you betrayed? Because, I mean,
you know, talk about somebody who knows every
little bit of you. It's that. But that's
that's what I would say back to that
is I hear you, but it's hard for
my little brain to wrap my head around
that because I just I I I still
don't know if I know what sex is.
And so it's hard for me to feel
like I'm missing out on it because, frankly,
(48:59):
I don't know if I've experienced it. Yeah.
Yeah. Because that what you're describing is far
beyond just a biological thing. Yeah. It's a
it's a transcendent
kind of a thing. Doctor Schnarsh referred to
it as wall socket sex. Mhmm. You're you're
plugged into something that's like, well, there's a
different energy.
There's a different essence. There's a different presence.
I love the concept of it's a spiritual
(49:21):
component. Yep. I believe God created it. So,
he's there too. There's no shame. He's actually
excited about what's happening too if you have
a biblical framework along with you know? So
it's just this element of yeah. It's a
it's a knowing of each other Mhmm. And
being known by each other. And a lot
of the ways
to start that is,
(49:43):
eyes open Yeah. With each other and, like,
look into each other's eyes during sex.
And
some people are gonna be like, what are
you talking about? I've never opened my eyes
during sex. Yeah. There's a lot of people
that don't. Mhmm. Well, one of the ways
you start to do that is you up
your eye contact. Maybe not during sex and
other areas of your life too because that's
(50:04):
an intimate level. That's a connection
that's so much deeper and more profound
than genital. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Combine them,
man, you you get you get a power
source that that truly starts to become this
thing of, like, oh, hold on. I had
no idea.
Well, the thing goes for the relationship. Right?
You can have a relationship that's not intimate.
(50:25):
Mhmm. Right? And so you add intimate connection
to the relationship
way different. Same thing and same with sex.
Right? You can do the you know, I've
heard it called pussy cock sex. You know,
just like, yeah, put the thing in the
thing and wiggle it around and, you know,
and then be done with it. Right? But
then there's this other element. You know, it's
it's interesting you that you bring that up.
(50:47):
You know, it's
I would say now that I feel like
I'm getting closer to real sex,
it's less about the sex. I'm not even
really thinking about what position we're in
or what one I'm gonna do next. It's
more about, like,
we could be in the same one position
the whole time and just be really locked
in in each other. Right? And and, you
(51:08):
know, with ample amounts of of intimate, you
know, foreplay and setting the stage. Right? So,
it's it's in yeah. As you're bringing that
up, you know, I I think I can't
you know, and and for guys guys, it's
the difference between porn,
sex worker,
a fair partner, white. Right? But you can
feel the difference in those different areas, and
it's because, yeah, with each one, we're stripping
(51:29):
the humanity front, and it just doesn't quite
feel
Yeah. You know, soon, it's just getting Yeah.
Belittled down to an orgasm. Right?
Brother, this was a this was a freaking
killer conversation.
I knew it would be. Definitely gonna put
you, with your permission, put you on the
on the on the, on the schedule for
six months from now and do it again
because I think Sure. We didn't even scratch
(51:50):
the surface on all the stuff that you
because I know you, you're doing a lot
of work with, men, and I would love
to dive into a lot of the conversations
that you and those guys have because, you
know, there is this other element of being
a kick ass husband and we all wanna
be one, but, you know, it's a skill.
It's not it's not inherent. It's something you
have to learn how to do, and it's
cultural, and it changes. So,
(52:12):
bunch of more conversations that you and I
need to have.
If somebody wants to work with you, get
a hold of you, talk to us about
the different offerings that you have, outside of
just the podcast, but please, restate the podcast
and where they can find it and then
any other thing else that you have. Yeah.
So the easiest way if you Google sexy
marriage radio, it that's we're the only one
with that title, so it's pretty easy to
find us. We've been around so long. It's
(52:33):
should be the very thing that comes up.
Smr.fm
is the web address. That's the only address
I've got. So
everything we have is there. And
within the nation, which is what we call
the sexy marriage radio nation,
there's I I do groups with men, which
are husband mastermind groups. Those go twice a
year. Mhmm.
(52:54):
There's also a membership, which is the academy,
and that's a deeper level of listeners and
support and interaction. That's male, female, lots of
couples that are in there. We do monthly
coaching calls as part of that. And then
the podcast comes out,
every Wednesday.
There's two different versions, a regular and an
extended. Members get the extended content, which just
goes deeper and is more personal a lot
(53:14):
of times or
more academic or something. You know? So, but,
yes, s m r dot f m, I'm
very, very easy to find.
Just start there. Yeah. Awesome stuff, man. This
was great. I appreciate your time, man.
Thanks for listening to this episode. If you
are a high achiever with the sex addiction
and you're looking for a recovery group full
of like minded men, visit successfuladdict.com.
(53:36):
We provide men with a recovery mastermind group
using four day retreats,
weekly group calls, and daily accountability check ins.
If you wanna achieve long term sobriety and
save your marriage, go to our website and
fill out an application. If you enjoyed this
episode, please pass it along to a friend
in recovery who would benefit from listening. It
is my mission to get this information out
to as many high achievers
(53:57):
as possible, and I can't do it without
your help.
Marital infidelity is gotta be one of the
hardest things couples can recover from. I mean,
the the lack of trust, the lack of
safety, the name calling, right? The stress, the
crying, the tears, the anger, the frustration
on both halves, right? You know, in the
beginning, you know, it's the betrayed partner whose
world's been flipped upside down. But, you know,
as time goes on, you know, these guys,
(00:21):
you know, the the the relationship is just
hard to be in. Right? There's no trust,
there's no safety, there's, there's there's arguing, you
know, it it doesn't look anything like it
did when you guys met. It is so
hard. It's so hard. And there's always this
question really on both sides, you know, the
cheating partner and the betrayed partner. Why be
married in the place? Why even be in
a relationship? Is it worth it? Right? Then
(00:43):
if this relationship doesn't work out, am am
I just gonna get betrayed and lied to
again in the next relationship? Right? It's a
question that comes up quite a bit after
all of this is, you know, do I
even wanna be married? Will I get married
again? Well, in this podcast, we talk about
marriage.
Marriage, why people do it, why people put
themselves in these very difficult situations? Because marriage
is not easy. And my guest I'm bringing
(01:06):
with you today has one of the top
marriage podcasts
on all podcast platforms. And what Corey is
gonna talk about today is he's gonna take
all of his wisdom from everything that he's
gathered over all the years and bring it
into the betrayal, trauma, and sex addiction context.
You are listening to the sex addiction podcast
for high achievers, business professionals, executives, and entrepreneurs.
(01:28):
This podcast is designed to apply sobriety and
recovery principles
specifically to the mindset of the high achiever.
I'm your host, Roland Cochran, founder of The
Successful Addict, a recovery group for high achieving
men struggling with sex and porn addiction. For
more information about joining our group or attending
our next retreat, visit successfuladdict.com.
And now, enjoy the rest of the episode.
(01:52):
Hello everybody. I am here with doctor Corey
Allen. Corey
has a kick ass podcast.
Sexy Marriage Radio, isn't that isn't that the
proper title of it? Yep. Yep. And, dude,
I,
I was on your show and I knew
it was an honor, mainly because I disliked
you as a human being. I thought you
were there's just, you know, there's just a
(02:12):
lot of bad help out there and bad
advice. And so when I meet somebody who
cares and actually has the brains to give
people good advice,
I I I just love hanging around those
people. I would come to find out later,
dude, your podcast is a big deal, man.
Good for you. I was I was looking
it up and it was like, holy smokes.
This is, this is this podcast has a
(02:32):
lot of, listeners. How long have you been
doing it?
So let's see. The week tomorrow's episode,
as we're recording this, is 07/2021.
So Hey. Thirteen
years. Yeah. Over fourteen years.
And just so everybody knows, it is not
a sex addiction.
It is a it is largely a marriage,
(02:53):
relationship podcast. That's really what it is.
And so just so you guys know, it's,
when you go over there and listen to
it, which a lot not a lot of
you are,
it is gonna be a relationship podcast, not
a
betrayal,
sexual betrayal, infidelity, sex addiction, porn addiction. Yeah.
We've covered we've covered that many a time
because we go anywhere relationships go, which that
(03:13):
is an aspect of relationship and dynamics for
certain. Yeah. And so so just as everybody
knows, it's a but I but I like
it because,
your I vouch, you know, for everybody listening,
I vouch for Corey and his podcast. He's
he's a brilliant guy. He vets he was
very, you know, when him and I met,
he was very,
you know, very strict about, hey. This is
(03:34):
what's gonna go. And if you're gonna be
on my show, you're in honor of my
audience in this way. So I vouch for
him and,
guess an information that he provides. So let's
dive into the topic today, which is, I
think this is a cool topic because, there's
a lot of my listeners who are very
early on in their addiction,
process, but I think this this topic is
still gonna be applicable to the people who
(03:56):
are still in crisis.
But the guys who are later, you know,
post, you know, a year out, two years
out, three years out, you're really gonna resonate
with this topic. And
it's the idea, like, why be married at
all? You know? It's and I think a
lot of us don't really
guess that when we're in a
functional happy marriage.
But, Corey,
(04:16):
like, what about now? Like, so I've sexually
betrayed my wife.
Here we are. I've blown her trust out
of the water.
I've lied to her multiple times. Instead of
getting immediately sober, I still you know, there
was some trickling out of some truth. You
know, I I just royally screwed that up.
Right? A lot of guys can resonate with
so now here we are. The marriage has,
it looks different.
Looks
different.
(04:37):
You know, at the beginning phase, she's got
two feet out. Now with with time, she
starts to get one foot back in and
then eventually, once we enter phase three, she
gets two feet back in and we are
we're committed.
But, again, just because she has committed to
the idea of giving me a chance and
seeing if we can heal,
that does not mean the marriage is in
good shape. I would say it's I would
(04:58):
say phase two is almost
is just as hard, if not harder than
phase one because you start
feeling a lot more,
of the sadness rather than her rage. But
my point of all of this is,
Corey, why be married at all? Like, that,
you know, that that question crosses probably both
the men and the women, you know, the
betrayed partners and the cheater.
(05:19):
Like, here we are in this in this
disastrous relationship where I don't even trust my
husband. And if you're the husband, I'm in
a relationship where I'm not trusted.
Gosh. There's there's moments where you start to
think, you know, should I just walk away
from this whole thing and and be single?
Well,
and foremost, I think there's an element of
recognizing
we're always in relationships.
(05:40):
Always
in a relationship of some kind, of some
shape, of some form. I mean, you and
I have a relationship now, Roland. We've met
each other three times now. So that's a
relationship.
So it's it's an element of I think
it's a foundational component of us as people
is
is we are born in relational
(06:02):
beings.
That's that's the way it goes. Like, I
think one of the phrases I used came
came across years ago was the idea of
we were,
created in togetherness, born into separateness, and constantly
trying to get back to togetherness.
And and that's the way it goes. And
so I think as part of our DNA,
marriage holds a different value to me of
(06:22):
importance
because of the design of it. I think
marriage is designed to help us,
grow up, period. That's the only reason it
exists. It's not happily ever after.
It's not the the only place I can
have sex. I mean, because if if I've
got a sex addiction, you know you can
have sex anywhere, everywhere, whatever,
any point, but it exposes things in us
(06:45):
that we don't find any other relationships
that will do the that have the pressure
to do that.
So,
I think of it through this lens that
if marriage is designed to help me grow
up, it makes me a better me by
exposing me to me so that your question
of why even be in a relationship.
Well, I'm always in a relationship if for
(07:06):
nothing else than with myself.
Mhmm. And I need to take into account
that because
even the phraseology of how you set this
up, Roland, was
all contingent on the betrayed spouse, the wife.
She's two feet out. Now she's one foot
in, and now she's both feet in. Well,
where is his feet? Mhmm.
On the whole thing, has he ever been
both feet in?
(07:27):
Right? Is he one foot, both feet out
in? You know? So it's an element of
we sell ourselves short by not recognizing
my culpability
in everything that goes on in life,
and rather than thinking of it as I
I do this with my clients
when,
someone comes in and they've been betrayed. And
(07:47):
the betrayed spouse will say inevitably, how could
you do that to me? And it's like,
no. They didn't do anything to you.
You you weren't there. You're collateral damage.
It's it's incredibly rough. It's a different path,
and it's and it's an honored one, invalid
one.
But what what you really need to be
asking yourself, betrayed spouse, is
how do you wanna be in a relationship
with somebody that would do that to themselves?
(08:07):
Mhmm.
Because now you're starting to look at who
is this person I'm actually with. And and
if I ask myself that
as one that's gone down a betrayed journey,
I was the betrayer
on an emotional affair level and a pornography
level. Mhmm. And so
if I when I ask myself, wait a
I I'm capable of doing this to myself.
(08:29):
What does that say about my relationship and
how I live with myself here?
I have a different way to start in
engaging in my world
by taking on myself better
and then having a relationship that
gets the benefits of that. Mhmm. Because, you
know, you you you you and I have
talked a bunch about the the addictive
(08:50):
world out there and the help world and
how a lot of it can become this.
Well, how do I just maintain a good
relationship? What do I do to act right,
quote, unquote? And that's the worst advice there
is on how do I act right.
None of us ever do,
just to varying degrees.
So
so it's it's really starting to grow myself
(09:11):
up into being somebody
I would wanna be in a relationship with.
Mhmm.
And that's always honor,
driven by character,
integrity,
and living in line with my values.
Because when I do that, I now then
become trustworthy.
Mhmm.
And I become somebody that can be seen
(09:31):
as consistent
and engaged. And then when I'm not and
I'm out of line with my character,
I own it, and I get back in
line. Because we all do it on micro
levels. Right. But with what your mission is
on major levels that where we do this,
where it's a huge incongruence.
And we all have them, and so
relationships
expose that in us.
(09:53):
And then I have a chance to really
become a better person.
Because the other thing I love about marriage
is it takes me places I can't go
on my own. Mhmm. Mhmm.
It's a it's it's
the thing that I was thinking about that
as you were talking was,
so I've been divorced,
twice before my marriage now, and I'm a
young guy. And, I have so much, like,
(10:14):
shame and embarrassment around that. I did I
hated telling people that because of the the
judgment that may come from it. Right? But
it's funny. I think back as you were
talking about, I think back to it.
I exited both of those relationships
out of self preservation.
I didn't know that at the time.
(10:35):
I,
I just I knew that there was changes
that were going to come in the future
subconsciously,
and, I didn't want to
I liked my grandiose,
view of myself. I didn't like
and so the marriage was fine as long
as they thought that I was the man.
But the I started getting
hints that they found out that I wasn't
(10:57):
as awesome as I once was,
I was like, well, screw you. Like, you're
my wife. You're supposed to you're supposed to
you know, so that was my narrative. So
marriage ended. Right. Next marriage, same thing. For
better and for worse. Right? This is my
worst. You're supposed to accept my worst.
Yeah. Exactly. Right? So then it's like, okay.
Here I am, time, and same thing. I
was like, alright. I'm gonna bring the guns
blazing this time. I had more money. My
(11:18):
house was bigger. It's like, okay. I'm I'm
gonna I'm gonna really come in and and
and and kill it this time and be
extra impressive. Right? So same thing, cast her
under my spell, cast everyone under my spell.
But here's the problem with spells is if
someone's living in your home with you twenty
four seven,
Mhmm. It's really hard to cast spells on
people who live in your house. And so
(11:39):
eventually, there gets to be these glimpses of
you without your spell casting, your insecurities, your
character flaws, your anger, your, you know, whatever
whatever the other, kind of less attractive trait,
child childish childish trait.
But as you were saying all that, that's
what I thought of was
here's what happened different this time. When I
(11:59):
betrayed Lauren,
I I gave she was the person I
gave all of me. I really did. I
I I we'd had conversations. She'd she really
you know, that cheesy saying, she made me
a better person. She made me wanna be
better. I I I I cared about things
that I never cared about before when I
was single. Right? So as I'm hearing this,
(12:19):
I think two people and everybody listening probably
has somebody that you guys all know that
person who's been
married three times, four times, five times, six
times.
And if they keep exiting every time that
they get to that point,
you know, this is a general statement and
probably a judgment, but, I don't know. You
guys know those people. They they haven't really
(12:40):
grown a whole lot from a a self
awareness standpoint, self actualization standpoint. You know, if
you keep exiting those relationships when they get
to that point. So that was the thing
that came to mind was
I think of myself when I kept getting
out Mhmm. And I think of other people
who I know who keep getting out. And
it's so true what you said.
There's a big difference between the person who
(13:03):
is in marriage. And then, again, I'm not
demonizing divorce. There's a time and a place
for that. So, but, you know, the person
who's committed to marriage
and wants to be in another one, you
know, the they get divorced, they're like, oh,
I wanna be in another one. The guys
you know, a lot of guys in this
area, they're like, should I just get out
and be single,
and and never get married?
And I want one thing I wanted to
(13:24):
speak to you too is,
just to just to
further anchor why we're wired for connection. I
have my description. I'd love for you to
explain that because I I
therapists throw that out very often. Oh, humans
are wired for connection. We're wired to be,
in relationship.
Can you just give a few, like, really
tangible examples of that? Absolutely. I mean, I
(13:46):
I look at this through a lens of,
reflected sense of self and a solid sense
of self.
Right? Other validated self validated, whatever kind of
phraseology you wanna use to do therapist speak
for a
So if the best example I think of
with this Roland is the idea of when
I was in middle school and you try
on different mannerisms,
(14:07):
behaviors,
but it's such a pressure cooker sardine can
environment that you can't go too far out
Mhmm. Because it's it's too risky, but you
do care about what people think.
That's a reflected sense of self. Right? If
I if I work out and I'm feeling
kinda good and strong and I put on
the shirt that's a smedium, so it shows
(14:28):
off the muscles a little more,
and I get, dude, you're looking great. Well,
you know what kind of shirts I'm likely
gonna be wearing then because of what I
had coming back at me, which
all of ourselves
are based and built part partially from that.
Mhmm. Then the other side of the equation
is, what do I have inherently in me
(14:49):
that is defining of me,
that that makes me unique, that makes me
special,
that makes that that's my superpowers, if you
will. That's my nuances,
if you will. That's that's part of who
I quintessentially
am. And we constantly go back and between
these things. And so relationships,
(15:10):
play a role
of
not only helping us refine who we are,
but also challenging us to smooth out the
rough edges. I mean, that's the one thing
I hear from a lot of people that
were single for a while, and then they
get into a serious relationship. And they're like,
I never really knew how selfish and lazy
I was. Mhmm. Or I never really knew
how opinionated
(15:31):
I am. Or you know, because we always
surround ourselves with the social media is a
great
description of what we do in our lives
also in some ways in the sense that
we surround ourselves in echo chambers. Mhmm. Yeah.
Yeah. Except for in marriage.
I know. And you talk to Democrats in
a marriage at all. It's no law. Democrats
(15:52):
are always like, I don't know where all
these Republicans are because I don't know. I've
never seen a single one. And the Republicans
are like, I don't know where all these
Democrats are. They're single yeah. Exactly like that.
Right? But we don't we don't know
ourselves
well
because our spouse we don't have somebody that's
constantly trying to be themselves too because
(16:12):
the pressure of a relationship is, I'll go
along to get along for a time. Mhmm.
And then I'll finally have to start standing
up because it starts going against parts of
me.
Right? It's like, you know what? No. I'm
gonna have to speak up here. You know
what? No. That's not tolerable or gonna have
to draw a line here or something because
it's a threshold of myself has been crossed.
Mhmm. It's not just the other. And so
(16:35):
there's an element of
relationships play such a vital part of our
lives
because it's part of what helps us become
better people
primarily. And then the other side of it
is, most of us, when we when we're
honest, there's parts of us that we know
aren't refined and we don't like about ourselves.
(16:55):
So I wanna escape that. And where else
do we often go escape that from? Or
where do we go to escape that most
is relationships.
Right? So I I just focus on them.
I can just serve and honor and pursue
and whatever
them. And it's like, wait. Hold on. We
can't escape ourselves. Because I'm hearing
in in your story of the okay. Multiple
(17:16):
marriages.
One of my very clients was this. And
she was an older lady, and she was
on her at the end of her marriage.
And this lady was probably in her seventies.
And and so she came in because she
was like,
I just gotta help help me find better
men. Mhmm.
Right? And so my response to her took
her off guard because I said, how about
let's talk about the common denominator in her
(17:38):
in this story?
I mean, it's you. So
how about we talk about you? Mhmm. And
what could be going on with you
in the threads of your relationship dynamic and
what it is you could be trying to
run from? And she didn't like me at
but then then she came around and was
like, no. That's good. Because it's realizing
we spend and this is the addiction world
(18:01):
largely
is either I'm trying
to puff myself up and feel better about
myself or I'm trying to avoid something about
myself, and there's a way to anesthetize
that. And
and if you think about it,
we're constantly trying to do it. It's it's
still relationship.
So
to me,
the key to
(18:22):
better,
more whole,
vibrant living
is deep, genuine, real relationships. I know that's
what your mesh mission is,
is authentic vulnerable relationships is the is the
key
to to making what life actually can become
even better than that. Mhmm. Which is which
(18:42):
is challenging in this dynamic. Right? Because
the if you look at what creates intimate
relationships, you know,
Dan Drake and, the Rav Smiths put together
this cool little pyramid called the intimacy pyramid.
And,
in it, there's honesty, trust,
vulnerability,
and safety.
And and, not in that order, but they
(19:04):
build up. And you need, you know, you
need the safety, you need the honesty, you
need the trust to create a platform for
vulnerability.
And then when you add the vulnerability to
this safe container, it creates this intimate connection.
Right? And I I like that pyramid because
it's it's a it's a good way to
visualize it. But,
But but, Corey, you come in here, and
(19:25):
here you go. You betray your wife,
and,
you have this very new dynamic when you
do that. And
it is very and and here's usually a
bunch of men who,
have issues with trust, have issues with,
they all think they're connected because they know
(19:46):
all these people and everybody likes them, and
they speak on stage, and they run these
big companies. And so, you know, me, myself,
I was under that delusion. You know, when
I heard that I had an intimacy disorder
and then I had intimacy anorexia, and I
was like, no. You guys got the wrong
guy. Like, you that that is not me.
Then I came to realize,
okay. And I start to look the belief
(20:06):
system that people like that have. I'm like,
yeah. I
I have that belief system.
And so can I have that can I
have that belief system of distrust of people,
not trusting anyone besides myself to get my
needs met? Can I believe those things
and have really deep meaningful
relationships?
You know, I don't think so. Right? I
(20:27):
think I think you have to turn some
of those off to be able to invite
some of that in. So but my question
to you is,
so here we are. We've done that to
our partners.
Now we're supposed to have this very vulnerable,
authentic relationship,
in a
very hostile environment. What do you say to
that?
(20:47):
Well, so then it starts to become
how do you approach
that environment
to where if the goal is just to
lower the hostility
you've already lost, both of you have.
Right? Because it's it's getting to where
realizing we need to face the things. I
need to face the things I've been avoiding
all along.
(21:07):
And it's not just her. It's also me.
Mhmm. It's also
you know,
understand. I use this with my clients a
lot in the sense of,
okay. So something's happened where there's been a
betrayal or a moral failure of some sort.
Right? You're you're out of line with your
character.
K. Good.
That that's good. That's now you see what
you're capable of.
(21:28):
And then now we'll see what you're capable
of.
Right? Because it it's it's really helpful information.
I mean, on my emotional betrayal,
I never thought going in I was capable
of that because it's not something that just
happens real quickly. It's it's a slow gradual,
oh, okay. Oh, this oh, oh, oh, and
then, woah. Oh, here we go.
(21:49):
You're already way past the line. Mhmm. But
looking back at it, you realize, okay. Now
I know what I'm capable of. So what
do I need to do to put in
place
the the safeguards, if you will, the structures,
if you will,
because I know what I'm capable of? And
then at the same time, you start to
see how do I actually face this. Because
(22:10):
if I don't go through a process
of true renewal, if you will, or refining
of my own self,
it's just a dressing up
what was
nothing where nothing's changed.
And who sees through that the fastest?
Mhmm. Yeah. You're right. A spouse. Mhmm. Yeah.
A spouse knows.
(22:31):
But if it's something fundamentally
different where it's a order change, like, it's
a deep belief
value level
change,
that's gonna get seen too. Not as quick
as we want it to. That's that's the
problem that you probably run into also. It's
like, god. It's been three years. It's been
why can't they? Okay. Hold on. Because now
(22:52):
you're still dealing with hurt and their own
stuff
that's being exposed here. Because it's not just
you. Mhmm.
That's the main purpose or or or main
point here. It's them. And so it's realizing
there's so many things that have gone on
concurrently
that we have to realize, k, what's actually
(23:12):
at risk here for each of us Mhmm.
To have to face ourselves. Because if we
do it right, in my opinion,
I turn into
my own crucible, if you will, to coin
a phrase from doctor Snar, who I did
a bunch of my training under.
And I grow and refine myself, and I
come out more, you know, more solid. Well,
my process
(23:34):
by design
would almost encourage, if not force, my wife
to have to do the same for her
life,
not just in relationship to me.
Because if I come out and I'm more
honest and genuine about some things, maybe I'd
keep in kept hidden about desires or wishes
or longings or whatever
because it was improper
(23:55):
or too out there or whatever. And now
I start bringing that out. Well, that's gonna
really pressure her,
which now is gonna expose things in her
to have to face about, hold on. It's
so much easier to keep it as the
addict world of, well, you're just an addict.
You're just a pervert. You're just a
well, k. K. But it's another thing to
say, yeah. That's parts of me. Absolutely.
(24:16):
Mhmm. You're right.
And now what do we do? Right? Because
now it's now we're actually having to face
what's really going on rather than just pain.
Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. It's a
and this is where I think it's a
lot easier, especially in the sex addiction world
and betrayal world. It's a lot easier for
you guys to make the individual headway that
you need to make
(24:38):
in your peer groups than it is in
the relationship. And it's a you know, when
you don't have these skills,
especially the guys, I mean, it's a that
environment is a tough place to practice.
And, you know, so so get your reps
in. And that's you know, and when they
say peer support too, you know, guys, it's
not just going I mean, 12 step is
not designed for connection.
(24:59):
When you read it, it is designed
when you look at it, the program is
designed to work 12 steps. That's what the
container is for. If you look at it,
it is a place for you to come
together with a bunch of other guys and
work the steps together and then hire a,
partner with a sponsor
to help you with the steps. Sponsors are
not supposed to give you advice. It actually
says in the handbook that that is prohibited.
(25:21):
They're supposed to help you go through the
steps.
So just for you guys who are still
struggling with this,
if 12 step is where you are getting
all of your
connection,
I mean, when you when all you can
say back to the other guy is, thanks,
Corey. Thanks, Roland.
That's not connection.
(25:41):
Right? That's that's
it's a safe place for you to be
able to share so that you don't have
shame. But, again, it's not in it's not
an environment created for connections. If you guys
want to connect,
meet those same guys outside of the group.
So, hey, do you guys wanna have breakfast?
Do you guys wanna go to dinner? Do
you you know, the connection's gonna happen where
you guys can have a very normal dialogue
where they're allowed to say more than thanks
(26:03):
with your name. Right? And so,
the question I had was,
I'm gonna hold on. Before you get there,
I wanna let's jump in real quick on
on an aspect within the dynamic of marriage,
though.
Because a lot of times what happens after,
whatever is discovered or disclosed.
Right? So let's say it's you're completely clean
(26:25):
in the sense of I've been transparent.
Here's here's here's what's going on, And it
truly is a element of what you want
to do is,
reestablish a relationship. Esther I love Esther Perel's
wording on this is the marriage we have
is over. Now it's a question of do
we want another one together. Mhmm. Correct. And
it's not that formal, we're gonna actually have
(26:46):
a divorce and then get remarried. But I
have to look at it as a a
new chapter Mhmm. Is definitively starting.
And
within that process,
what most often can happen is
the the underbelly, the shadow motivations we've got
are still there.
Mhmm. I've just started to clean them up,
and I don't go out to as far
(27:06):
of an extreme
to get things met
or medicated.
But I still got them. Right? Because I
we all medicate in some way, shape, or
form for life's ills and fears and insecurities.
So,
whenever I'm actually doing better
and then the dynamic in the marriage changes
to where she still is not trusting. That's
(27:28):
the that's the buzzword that's thrown around all
the time of I need to be able
to trust you. My answer to that is
to do what?
Right? Because it's so broad brush. It's not
it's not nuanced enough
to where instead, it's like, I need to
be willing to have the risk
and choose,
am I willing to possibly get hurt again?
(27:49):
Mhmm. That's really what she's facing. Mhmm. And
then I also need to have the willingness
to ask the question of,
am I with somebody that cares about the
pain I have to go through to choose
this? Mhmm. Because if I start to see
it that way because I came home five
years after
my disclosure
of an emotional betrayal
and my wife, it was right around the
(28:10):
anniversary of the day of disclosing.
And so I came in, had totally no
idea of the of the anniversary,
and she was in a really bad spot.
I'm just really down that day because it
had just hit her, and she's just really
wrestling even though we were on a huge
upward trajectory at this point.
And she's I'm like, you okay? She just
read it. She's like, no. I'm really not.
(28:31):
I can't believe you did that.
And I was in a better spot at
this point because my answer to her back
was, I can't either.
Rather than my normal defensive
avoid,
let me explain.
But look how far we've gone. You know?
Look at look at all this kind of
stuff. And and instead, it was truly a,
(28:51):
yeah, you're right. Because what I wanted to
try to do, looking back at it, was
how do I make room for your pain?
Because it's valid. It's legitimate.
And it's not about me even though it
is.
Part me, you know, partly,
if not a lot, because of me. But
it's still
true compassion, true depth of relationship
(29:14):
has room for both people even when their
experience
crowds out mine.
Right? So it's realizing that's what's the struggle
of deep relationships
in marriage, particularly,
is getting to the point where,
hold on. This isn't about how do I
just make sure we're okay. This is about
(29:35):
how am I alongside
you to to the points that are gonna
be hurt.
You know, I could be hurt. I can
feel that pain
and and walk alongside it, but also have
the courage enough to say, you know what?
Hold on.
I still feel like I'm getting kicked in
the teeth for something
that I've owned.
(29:55):
And I don't know what we need to
do about that completely, but this is this
you know, because this is where it starts
to flip,
where
it it starts to become
problematic on both sides of the equation because
one person hangs on to that wound
and then weaponizes it just like I could
hang on to an insecurity
or an unmet something and weaponize it. And
(30:18):
that's the underbelly of us gets uncovered in
in this. And so when I start to
see it through a different lens, I then
have a different empowerment
to okay. Wait.
I'm really handling me much better here.
So Well, it's a it's what what you
said is you see this in you see
this in the sex addiction world a lot
because what will happen is,
(30:38):
a lot of guys, you know, it's not
a small list of things that they've done.
It's a it's a big list. You know,
mine was uncomfortably bigger than I thought it
was gonna be. And when I sat down
and wrote it down, I'm like, whoo. Uh-oh.
Right. You know? And so
but here's what happens, right, is,
in that initial phase, we we we never
(31:00):
as the as the cheating partner, we never
act the way they want us to act.
We're we're in tons of shock.
We're scared.
You know, so we're not we're not quite
showing up in that way that they really
want us to show up, which is which
is, fair and understandable on both sides.
But here's the sad part, right, is especially
in the sex addiction space, they're like, woah.
He's
(31:21):
hired, you know, 19,
prostitutes, went to all these massage parlors, went
you know, their reaction you know, tune to
one night stands, slept with this one coworker
on it. It's like,
all of her friends, her parents, everybody, hey.
You need to you need to leave this
guy. You need to get a divorce. This
guy is this guy, like,
why why are you even considering staying with
him? Right? So,
(31:42):
but she wants to stay. That that's that's
where she's at right now. And so but
look at that. Right? So,
a, you didn't quite show her what she
wanted. She didn't quite see the the the
the pain you feeling her pain. Then she
goes to her friends and her friends are
all like,
hey. You know? Then there's always a couple
of the friends. Right? Sometimes it's the parents
who are like, hey. You know what? Give
(32:03):
them a chance. And, you know, sometimes their
parents, like, belittle it. They're like, hey. We
all we all make mistakes. Right? So, typically,
this is how it goes. Basically, they're not
really getting the response from any of the
parties in their life. And the reason I'm
bringing this up is
it is not uncommon for them to weaponize
the situation because they felt like they didn't
(32:24):
get taken seriously. And my heart aches for
them because they're absolutely
spot on. They were not taken. It was
not honored. It was not honored by the
husband. It was not honored by their parents,
by his parents, by the peers, by the
and so I I get that. But it's
tough, Corey. They get stuck
sometimes in this, I need to stick up
for how bad this was because no one
(32:46):
takes it seriously.
And, again, that ends up getting becoming problematic
because
now we're sticking up for how much this
hurts rather than
trying to heal. Right? And so it's it's
this murky it's this murky space, and I
think what makes it extra murky is
because you did it
to her and because it is so ugly
(33:06):
and horrible and,
they're
you know, it's very hard to tell somebody
to, hey. You need to you need to
kinda come off this. It's it's scary for
everybody, even the therapist, to tell the person
that they need to maybe come off at
a skoch or we're gonna stay stuck here.
That whole aspect mess messes I I see
it time and time and time again. These
(33:27):
these women have been bullied into a position
where they feel like they have to stick
up for what's been done to them. And
it's really sad because it starts to become
the very problem that prevents the couple from
getting forward.
Well and the undercurrents
of that also are part of what helps
create the problems in life anyway. Yeah. Sure.
(33:49):
So so it's it's coming to grips with
most of the time when you're talking about
issues that come up in marriage.
They just get revealed
because they were already there.
Right? That it's it's an insecurity. It's an
uncertainty.
It's a I'm I'm too withdrawn. I'm too
aloof. I'm too judgmental. I'm too reactive. I'm
in a and these are all subtleties and
(34:11):
on a continuum. You know? They're not typically
giant because
we meet, fall in love with, and stay
with people that make sense.
If they do life at a different level
than I do, it is a short lived
relationship,
period, if it's a relationship at all.
But the people that make sense are the
ones that I have a potential of a
(34:32):
long term relationship with, and it's because they
see life and operate in life largely similarly
to me in some way. And there's nuances
throughout all of this and how it plays
out and manifest itself are different. But fundamentally
speaking,
there's a there's so much similarities. It's like,
okay. I can get that because it's it's
it mirrors my family of origin.
(34:52):
Right? I either marry my parents or the
exact opposite of my parents,
which that's fundamentally the same
if you think about it. 180 degrees from
crazy is just another form of crazy. Mhmm.
So it's it's seeing it as
there's there's nothing going wrong in the system
in that regard. It's just exposing things. Now
(35:12):
it comes down to and that's why I
love the idea of separating it out to
where it wasn't done to her.
She's collateral damage from it. Mhmm.
And now if she starts to look at
it and can have a more,
self soothed,
rational,
as well as taking into account her emotions
(35:34):
view
of what went down and what goes on,
then she likely would be wise to have
some questions of, okay. Who exactly
is this guy?
Because we often tie it into the whole,
yeah, but I wanna keep and that's the
story of the relationship. That's the story of
how it began, you know, when we all
met each other's marketing departments Mhmm. And sales
(35:55):
guys.
You know, that that's the beginning of every
relationship. You meet the sales office and the
marketing departments.
And then when you get into it in
marriage, it's the back office and Mhmm. The
managements.
Right? The CEOs, the people that well, actually,
it's the back office. That's people that are
really running every shop anyway.
So
but it's like, okay. Who are these people?
Because then you get caught in when, like,
(36:17):
when a wife is caught in this dilemma
of,
wait a I got parents saying this thing,
friends saying this thing, he's saying this other
thing, a therapist saying nobody's saying the same
thing.
Well, they don't know the whole story like
she does. Mhmm.
So if she can figure out how to
settle settle herself down
and take into account what everybody else is
(36:37):
saying, which is always usually projections,
you know, because we we respond out of
things out of our own fear, hurt, or
pain.
Like, oh, if he did that to me,
blah blah, that's nothing about her. That's about
what if what is going on with me.
So
and then I can maybe have a a
a more discerning view
of, okay, who is this guy? Mhmm. And
(36:58):
then more importantly,
who will this guy be? Mhmm. Because if
he's genuine,
I'll see it. Mhmm. I'll know it. And
if he's not,
the spidey senses go off. Mhmm. And it
all falls back into place. It's like, oh,
okay.
I get it. I I you've shown me
who you are. Thank you. Mhmm. Now I
know. And then I can make my decision.
(37:20):
Mhmm. Well, it's a it's you know, that's
why a lot of guys are checking off
the boxes and not in actual
good recovery is not stopping the behaviors. Good
recovery is going into that back office and
saying, who the hell runs the you know?
Yeah. Who are these people, and do I
want them do I Yeah. Want them here.
(37:41):
Right? That's Good recovery is a guy that's
able to ask himself the question of, okay.
As it stands now,
would I want to be in a marriage
with me? Mhmm. Mhmm. Will I want to
marry me? Yeah. And the answer to that
question should be yes and no.
Right?
Always.
It's if if it's ever gonna go one
(38:02):
way where it's definitive one way, it better
be a no
rather than if it's yes, you're diluting and
you're blind to yourself. It's a situation.
You know what's funny? I have actually never
heard that. I like that because here's the
thing. So, like, if I'm gonna I'll I'll
be vulnerable with the audience and,
share share so, like, when you ask me
that,
it's a yes or no. The yes is,
(38:23):
oh, man. This is gonna be a blast.
This guy is a great time.
I love his outlook. He's everything's so light.
Nothing's so serious.
You know, he's well traveled. He well, you
know, so there's all these great things. And
he's got a desperate,
insatiable need for attention and validation, which just
scares the heck out of me because Yeah.
When I know be around that when I
(38:45):
know I'm gonna be collateral damage from that
kind of a relationship. Yeah. Yep. When he
when he is constantly
not okay without
people,
some of which being women,
telling him how awesome he is and making
these, you know, comments, gestures,
sometimes even an invitation or a proposition. Right?
(39:06):
Like, if he's living for that, which that
part of me is absolutely living for that,
would I wanna be with me? And the
answer is no. Knowing what I know about
what I've done and what I'm capable of,
I I would not wanna marry me. Right?
Now, obviously, this is pre recovery. Now post
recovery,
I'll be honest, those things are not gone.
(39:27):
My instinct,
every time I see a a a a
a very, very, very attractive woman is, did
she see me? Did she look at me
and give me that look? And I I
do not wanna think that. I do not
want that. That's not healthy for me. That's
not healthy for her. It's not healthy for
my wife. It's not healthy for even if
I didn't wasn't in this relationship and I
(39:47):
got into another relationship, I wouldn't want that
for that relationship, and I wouldn't want this
done to me on the flip side.
But that's that's that's the that's the battle
that we're fighting. And I am now I'm
honest with my wife about those parts of
me, and that's where we're kind of in
this together. That's back to kind of that
Esther Perel quote. Hey. The old marriage is
dead. So now that you're with a guy
like this, what's that mean? Right? What are
(40:09):
the new rules? Yeah. That's the that's being
honest, but it's also important, I think, Roland,
to realize. That's being honest with myself in
the sense that the the
I don't like this phraseology, but I this
what comes to mind. The skill set I
would use
to get glances at people that were inappropriate
are also the same kind of skill sets
I can use to not do that stuff.
(40:31):
Yeah. Correct.
Right? Because you see the girl walk in
and it's like, she is not wearing enough,
and it immediately registers. Okay. Well, I can
either position myself to get more views,
or
I know who's I know what's coming. Why
don't I position myself better to be in
line with who I wanna be? Yeah. It's
the it's the the addicts, they say play
(40:52):
the tape. Right? Like, play the tape through.
You know where this goes. Like, you know,
so if that's the kind of guy and
you keep doing that and doing hamstring curls
be even though it wasn't even leg day
so that you can get a you know,
do you really wanna be like like, play
that tape through and see where that
Yeah. Because that's the whole thing is that's
the stuff I can keep hidden to other
(41:12):
people. Mhmm. I can't hide it to myself.
Mhmm. Mhmm. And so when I use that
as a litmus test I mean, I ask
myself this most every day of what I
wanna be married to me. And the other
question is if I was married to me,
what would I want me to be working
on?
Yeah. That would be a good one. Yeah.
Because it's like, hang on, dude. You're you're
(41:34):
slacking here, and nobody knows I'm slacking except
me. So it's like, k.
How about I actually do something about that
rather than just expecting my wife to swallow
it
and be pleased Yeah. Or something rather no.
Because that's the part that truly is the
undeveloped.
I need to refine it and make it
(41:55):
what it is. And, again, it's not about
perfection. It's to me, it's about I know
both sides of me.
Mhmm. Yeah. And I don't let one wreak
wreak havoc
because it's unchecked or I'm blind to it.
Because if I see it and do nothing
about it, that's a different level of cruelty.
Mhmm. It's a it it is. It's a
you know, they call or they you know,
(42:15):
one of the words I like from doctor
Manwala, he calls it,
integrity abuse.
Yeah. Right? And you can intake you can,
you know, the thing about integrity abuse is
it abuses two people. It abuses your wife.
Sure. But, you know, you violating your own
integrity,
that should bother you too. I mean, that,
you know, that that should you shouldn't be
okay with that. You know? If it doesn't
bother you, then it's not integrity. Yeah. Exactly.
(42:36):
And that which I I I appreciate you
bringing that up because
there is
people think integrity and honesty are are the
same thing. They are not. Right? Honesty is
telling truth. Integrity
is a a commitment
to, like, I am I am this is
this is who I am. I don't bend
this.
It doesn't matter what the circumstances. I'm committed
(42:58):
to this is this is the truth, my
truth.
Now your truth can change. You know, you
can learn something and be like, oh, okay.
I don't wanna believe that anymore. This is
truer for me. So and now you're integris
to that.
Right? And then it changes again. Now your
integrity is to that. It's
where people
what's not fair to yourself and for everybody
else is when that definition changes depending on
(43:20):
who you're around. Right? Like, oh, integrity
was this when I'm on a family vacation,
but now I'm on a work vacation,
where I have no GPS tracking on my
phone. I can basically do whatever I want.
Now I have a new definition of integrity
for this. Right? Come on. That's that's not
how it works. So my my final question
in
(43:41):
why
why relationships? You know? There are guys without
question listening to this who are like, man,
screw this. Like, I I can't I can't
do this anymore. I'm I'm
I'm gonna get out. I'm just gonna I'm
gonna I'm gonna do the single life. I'm
gonna do,
I'm just not gonna get married again. What
do you say to guys who state that,
who state that case? Because I do. I
(44:02):
hear it. I hear it, unfortunately,
often.
Well, I'm I'm not gonna talk anybody out
of wanting to be single if that's what
they wanna be.
I mean, that
okay. There's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing
broken
with that.
I I use the equation though
of
and this is my values that I'm gonna
(44:24):
based off of this off of Roland is
I believe in marriage and a monogamous
relationship
because it takes you places
sexually.
You can't go
otherwise. Because there is
without fail
repeatedly
over the last
two decades, I've been following this. I've come
across three different times where they've updated this
(44:46):
study.
The most sexually satisfied people
are those in long term relationships.
And those the times the the the median
age
of that,
you wanna guess what that is?
Oh, gosh.
51?
(45:07):
55. That's pretty close. Right. So I'm two
years from from it right now at the
time of this recording. I'm really excited about
that because it's like, wait. I still got
more. You're primed.
Because there's an element of when we age
and we have a knownness
with our spouse,
there's a different level of what goes on
(45:27):
sexually with each other. Because it's not about
what you're doing, it's who you are in
the doing it together.
And as we age, we also oftentimes
become much more comfortable in our own skin.
Mhmm. For sure, women do. I mean, that's
why women's prime, quote, unquote, sexually speaking, is
in their forties and fifties
overall just because it's like they kinda know
who they are at that point. And there's
(45:48):
really not a much shame
or inhibition in some ways. They still got
things they gotta face, and it's not like
it's a huge free for all for all
women. But it's still there's a different kind
of prowess to them Mhmm. Than somebody who's
trying to figure who they are out. Mhmm.
And guys are the same way. I don't
know if we ever really figure out no
guy will say this, but I don't know
if we ever really figure ourselves out. But
(46:11):
we start to get to a point where
it's like, yeah, I'm more comfortable. And, unfortunately,
for a lot of guys, it happens when
the the sexual prime
hormonally
is starting to fade. But it's like it
doesn't matter at that point because now it's
a true
joining of spirits, tasting the essences of each
other
that's so much more profound
(46:32):
than just an act. Mhmm.
It's a what what I would say to
that that
for the guys
because I agree with I agree with everything
you're saying
except for
what if you don't know what sex is?
And now
I've had a ton of intercourse.
I have not I don't know if I
have had sex yet, to be completely honest
(46:54):
with you. Yeah. I think my wife are
getting and I are getting close.
You know, I've definitely I think I've had
maybe a little couple sensations
from what
I've grown to understand sex might feel like.
This this really,
kinda like scary
closeness almost. It's this it's this it's a
very, you know, vulnerable is the the word
(47:16):
to describe it. It's this
it's this feeling that I I get with
her sometimes when we're having real sex that
part of me wonders,
you know, I've got a bunch to I
got a lot to lose.
I've got I could contract something from her.
She could she could be sleeping with me
and then be sleeping with somebody else. Right?
Imagine how these this is why these women
feel the way they feel. Right?
(47:37):
But I do. I've had a lot of
intercourse, and I don't think I've had a
lot of sex slash maybe don't know if
I've had sex yet. And so I think
that's
the hang up for, I think, me and
even a lot of other guys is Mhmm.
If I don't know what I'm missing out
on,
then it actually is quite if intercourse is
the pinnacle,
(47:57):
then I can have that elsewhere. Right? And
so I think Oh, sure. That's kind of
the that's the thing that the only not
the only reason, but one of the main
reasons I'm hanging in there in a really
big way is I've grown in in recovery.
I have grown to understand that there are
aspects of sex and relationship and just intimacy
that I have not experienced yet. And I
(48:18):
know that if I don't get into a
long term relationship and what better one than
this? What better one than the one who
knows everything about me? She knows
everything
about me now. So what better environment than
to get
that thing that everyone talks about that's just
so wonderful?
What better place to get that than from
(48:39):
the woman who you betrayed? Because, I mean,
you know, talk about somebody who knows every
little bit of you. It's that. But that's
that's what I would say back to that
is I hear you, but it's hard for
my little brain to wrap my head around
that because I just I I I still
don't know if I know what sex is.
And so it's hard for me to feel
like I'm missing out on it because, frankly,
(48:59):
I don't know if I've experienced it. Yeah.
Yeah. Because that what you're describing is far
beyond just a biological thing. Yeah. It's a
it's a transcendent
kind of a thing. Doctor Schnarsh referred to
it as wall socket sex. Mhmm. You're you're
plugged into something that's like, well, there's a
different energy.
There's a different essence. There's a different presence.
I love the concept of it's a spiritual
(49:21):
component. Yep. I believe God created it. So,
he's there too. There's no shame. He's actually
excited about what's happening too if you have
a biblical framework along with you know? So
it's just this element of yeah. It's a
it's a knowing of each other Mhmm. And
being known by each other. And a lot
of the ways
to start that is,
(49:43):
eyes open Yeah. With each other and, like,
look into each other's eyes during sex.
And
some people are gonna be like, what are
you talking about? I've never opened my eyes
during sex. Yeah. There's a lot of people
that don't. Mhmm. Well, one of the ways
you start to do that is you up
your eye contact. Maybe not during sex and
other areas of your life too because that's
(50:04):
an intimate level. That's a connection
that's so much deeper and more profound
than genital. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Combine them,
man, you you get you get a power
source that that truly starts to become this
thing of, like, oh, hold on. I had
no idea.
Well, the thing goes for the relationship. Right?
You can have a relationship that's not intimate.
(50:25):
Mhmm. Right? And so you add intimate connection
to the relationship
way different. Same thing and same with sex.
Right? You can do the you know, I've
heard it called pussy cock sex. You know,
just like, yeah, put the thing in the
thing and wiggle it around and, you know,
and then be done with it. Right? But
then there's this other element. You know, it's
it's interesting you that you bring that up.
(50:47):
You know, it's
I would say now that I feel like
I'm getting closer to real sex,
it's less about the sex. I'm not even
really thinking about what position we're in
or what one I'm gonna do next. It's
more about, like,
we could be in the same one position
the whole time and just be really locked
in in each other. Right? And and, you
(51:08):
know, with ample amounts of of intimate, you
know, foreplay and setting the stage. Right? So,
it's it's in yeah. As you're bringing that
up, you know, I I think I can't
you know, and and for guys guys, it's
the difference between porn,
sex worker,
a fair partner, white. Right? But you can
feel the difference in those different areas, and
it's because, yeah, with each one, we're stripping
(51:29):
the humanity front, and it just doesn't quite
feel
Yeah. You know, soon, it's just getting Yeah.
Belittled down to an orgasm. Right?
Brother, this was a this was a freaking
killer conversation.
I knew it would be. Definitely gonna put
you, with your permission, put you on the
on the on the, on the schedule for
six months from now and do it again
because I think Sure. We didn't even scratch
(51:50):
the surface on all the stuff that you
because I know you, you're doing a lot
of work with, men, and I would love
to dive into a lot of the conversations
that you and those guys have because, you
know, there is this other element of being
a kick ass husband and we all wanna
be one, but, you know, it's a skill.
It's not it's not inherent. It's something you
have to learn how to do, and it's
cultural, and it changes. So,
(52:12):
bunch of more conversations that you and I
need to have.
If somebody wants to work with you, get
a hold of you, talk to us about
the different offerings that you have, outside of
just the podcast, but please, restate the podcast
and where they can find it and then
any other thing else that you have. Yeah.
So the easiest way if you Google sexy
marriage radio, it that's we're the only one
with that title, so it's pretty easy to
find us. We've been around so long. It's
(52:33):
should be the very thing that comes up.
Smr.fm
is the web address. That's the only address
I've got. So
everything we have is there. And
within the nation, which is what we call
the sexy marriage radio nation,
there's I I do groups with men, which
are husband mastermind groups. Those go twice a
year. Mhmm.
(52:54):
There's also a membership, which is the academy,
and that's a deeper level of listeners and
support and interaction. That's male, female, lots of
couples that are in there. We do monthly
coaching calls as part of that. And then
the podcast comes out,
every Wednesday.
There's two different versions, a regular and an
extended. Members get the extended content, which just
goes deeper and is more personal a lot
(53:14):
of times or
more academic or something. You know? So, but,
yes, s m r dot f m, I'm
very, very easy to find.
Just start there. Yeah. Awesome stuff, man. This
was great. I appreciate your time, man.
Thanks for listening to this episode. If you
are a high achiever with the sex addiction
and you're looking for a recovery group full
of like minded men, visit successfuladdict.com.
(53:36):
We provide men with a recovery mastermind group
using four day retreats,
weekly group calls, and daily accountability check ins.
If you wanna achieve long term sobriety and
save your marriage, go to our website and
fill out an application. If you enjoyed this
episode, please pass it along to a friend
in recovery who would benefit from listening. It
is my mission to get this information out
to as many high achievers
(53:57):
as possible, and I can't do it without
your help.
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