60. The Hard Truth About Sex Addiction and Betrayal Trauma Recovery

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Alright. It's time to cut through the BS
and just get real with it. You know,
in this field, it's a tough balance sometimes.
Right? Because we want to keep, you know,
hope high and optimism
and, positivity.
Right? Because, you know, this is hard. Right?
So we need to remain hopeful. We need
to see the light at the end of
the tunnel. But at the same time, we

(00:20):
can't just, like, hide our heads in the
sand here. I mean, this is a very
big problem. It's very real.
It is not a up until the right
recovery. It typically has ups and downs and
sometimes really low lows and really high highs.
There's relapses, there's slips, there's there's ugly fights.
Right? Just because you made it through the
first two year doesn't mean that the fights
aren't gonna get uglier between you and and

(00:42):
and the relationship.
Right? This is just not in linear
process. And I brought Jackie back on with
me today because she is a straight shooter.
She's not gonna sugarcoat anything. She's super direct
and I like to be direct too. I
don't like to sugarcoat people. So here's the
facts of addiction recovery and betrayal recovery delivered
to you with no filters.

(01:03):
You are listening to the sex addiction podcast
for high achievers, business professionals, executives, and entrepreneurs.
This podcast is designed to apply sobriety and
recovery principles specifically
to the mindset of the high achiever. I'm
your host, Roland Cochran, founder of The Successful
Addict, a recovery group for high achieving men
struggling with sex and porn addiction. For more

(01:23):
information about joining our group or attending our
next retreat, visit successfuladdict.com.
And now, enjoy the rest of the episode.
Hello, everybody. I am here with Jackie back.
Jackie, we are about to give everybody,
the the truth.
I'm so excited for this conversation. I am
I'm a realist. I've always been a realist.
I don't I don't want people to sugarcoat

(01:44):
anything.
You know,
present it to me in a way that
I can buy in, but at the same
time, don't sugarcoat it. Like, if it if
it's if it's hard, let me know how
hard it's gonna be. If a lot of
people struggle and fail, let me know that
so that I can try extra hard. I
think, you know, with my audience being,
high achievers,
executives, entrepreneurs, business owners,

(02:04):
hard is not something that they shy away
from. I think, you know, for my population,
we don't need you to
convince me to stay. Like, I I I
screwed this up. I want to fix this.
I don't wanna be a guy who does
these things. So just tell me if it's
gonna be hard, tell me how it's gonna
be hard. If it's and if it's gonna
be complicated, tell me it's gonna be complicated.
If it's gonna be expensive, Tell me it's

(02:25):
gonna be expensive. Like, I just wanna know
all of these things so I can make
a plan and I can I can know
if I am trying as hard as I
need to try? I wanna give you an
opportunity to,
say your spin on what I just said.
Do you feel the same way? How do
we navigate this? Where's that line between
scaring people away and also being honest with

(02:47):
them?
Yeah. I mean, I I'm the type of
person.
I tend to be pretty direct. I tend
to be pretty upfront.
Even if I think I'm tiptoeing around things,
people will be like, woah. That was really
direct. And I'm like, oh, man. I was
trying to tiptoe. Like, I, okay, like, I
was trying to come in soft and

(03:09):
let not that I'm not soft, but I
can sometimes just be very direct and
not realize that. So I tend to be
pretty honest with people who are starting this
process
that
it is a long process. It can be
expensive.
You know, the short term
fix your sex addiction in thirty days,
like, that's just not even gonna get you

(03:30):
started,
I think.
And and there is a lot of work
that is involved in this,
but I think it can also be exciting.
So when we say, yes, it's a long
term process. You know, doctor Karnes' research says
three to five years.
Also, his research was with people mostly in
residential treatment center.

(03:51):
And I don't work in residential treatment centers,
so,
you know, it might be a little bit
longer because they are out and about and
living their life
and that you know, they're not protected in
a residential setting.
So it is gonna take a long time.
I usually say it shouldn't take that long
to get sober. Mhmm.
And then we enter the recovery phase,

(04:13):
which
is exciting
and
transforming. And that's usually if they're in a
relationship,
that's usually when their partner starts to get
excited about the work they're doing.
That's when they start to be, like, interested
and maybe
wanting to be more a part of this
instead of feeling like
I'm here
because of something

(04:34):
this person did to hurt me, not because
I need to be here.
They usually start to engage a little bit
more
at that point willingly and in an excited
way. Mhmm. Yeah. So let's let's let's talk,
oh gosh. It's a dreaded topic, but I
think you and I injecting truth into it
will will make it easier for the listeners
to listeners to hear. But, of course, the

(04:56):
dreaded topic of timeline,
right, you know, everybody everybody wants it's frustrating
being limbo, so everybody wants to know, hey,
when is this gonna end?
Now, Jackie and I are not going to
give you a timeline because there is no
such thing. But I would like to speak
to it from a just what, you know,
what to expect standpoint. So,
let's first talk about the, you know, let's

(05:17):
rewind all the way back to when this
happens. Right? Sobriety.
You know, I wanna inject some truth into
this because I do think when we call
this addiction, which I actually really don't like
that term because I actually don't think a
lot of the guys are addicted
to sex, to
boobs and vaginas and nudity. And, like, I
don't I don't really think they're addicted to

(05:37):
these things. And so I think the the
problem with calling it that is there is
this,
unconscious almost expectation of, oh, it's an addiction.
I have seen that on movies and TV.
He's we need to we need to ship
him off. He'll go to this place for
four weeks and he'll come out and he'll
be healthy.
And very similar to a How to Quit

(05:57):
Porn in thirty Days book,
How to Quit Porn in thirty Days, even
if you're living in a facility,
if you know the psychology behind why this
is happening, we can't undo this in thirty
days. It's just it's not I mean, you
know, Rob Wise admits, you know, he's the
founder of Seeking Integrity, and he admits this
right on his podcast. He says, if you
think you're gonna come here and leave and

(06:18):
not never act out again, that is, you
know, that is absolutely not true. Tease you
up for a successful recovery. But I wanted
to speak to I'll I'll inject my truth
into it, and then I'd love to hear
yours. Jackie, I call it a spectrum. I
mean, when you look at the because for
the listeners who don't know this, although all
my listeners know this, sex addiction is a
process addiction. So if you guys really wanna

(06:38):
understand this, look into process addiction, which we
actually we we don't have a lot of
data for sex addiction because it's very new
and it's limited.
We actually have a lot of data on
process addictions, eating disorders. Like, if you guys
wanna understand how to treat a sex addiction,
look into anorexia, bulimia, some like, there's we've
we've,
I like directing guys that direction rather than

(06:59):
gambling just because gambling's not a life sustaining
function where sex and food are. So if
you really wanna understand this, there's actually a
good amount of research done on eating disorders,
and it's a very I would say it's
a similar approach.
So but it's a spectrum. And if you
look at how the American Psychological Association defines
it,
getting recovering from a process addiction is a

(07:21):
slow and steady decrease
in the thoughts and the behavior. Right? So
I know no one wants to hear this.
Your wife wants it to be a switch
that you flip and then you're magically sober.
But the truth is when we come to
process, process addiction, changing the brain processes is
a,
it's a it's a process. And so you
will gradually move down the sober spectrum

(07:43):
closer to the sober end from the addicted
end. The the thing is though, you're living
life every day at some point along that
spectrum. And so the challenge is in those
first six months,
you know, the truth is, you know, your
husband or if for the guys listening to
this, you, you're you're going to work or
on that work trip
still more on the addict side of the

(08:04):
sober spectrum. That's the truth. Like, I don't
I'm not, you know, anybody's gonna sugarcoat it
besides that. Like, you are probably more addicted
than sober going on this trip. Right? And
you're really relying on guilt and grief to
keep you sober, and it does a pretty
good job for those first eight months that
wears off though.
Jack, how would you speak to guys and
wives listening? Because I've I've having more and

(08:25):
more wives listening to my podcast.
How would you speak to sobriety so that
people can have a very realistic
understanding of it as a couple?
Yeah. I I would agree that there is
a continuum and even understanding
whatever we're dealing with, the compulsive sexual behavior.
Right?
There is

(08:46):
there
there's different understanding. Somebody that starts working on
this has
a level of understanding.
They know that it's hurt their wife. It's
they know they might be able to determine
a couple of ways that it's hurting them,
but sometimes they're only seeing that it's hurting
the partner Mhmm. And not themselves. Or they

(09:07):
might know that this doesn't really align with
my values, but is it really harmful? Mhmm.
You know, those types of conversations.
And we have to work with the fact
that sometimes they don't know what they don't
know. And so as we move down that
sober continuum,
they're going to have a deeper understanding and
be able to circle back and put things

(09:28):
in there, three circles, or put things in
there, how they define relapse or add things
to the slip circle just as a way
to understand, I think, sometimes making it concrete
instead of abstract.
Mhmm. As we're moving down that continuum, they
need to, you know, put that I will
always say,
putting it in the concrete,

(09:48):
which is writing it down,
puts it on the radar. Mhmm.
Yeah. I like that. It's a what what
you said too, which was my next talking
point is
recovery.
You know, being that this is a process
addiction, and the the reason I like to
call it that and not a sex important
addiction is

(10:09):
the behavior that you're chasing might not I
I mean, shoot from our in house research,
which is not official. I haven't, but we
collect it from it's only eighteen percent of
guys who actually identify with viewing this as
an addiction or an escape. The bulk of
the guys in my program, the the one
of the the biggest driving factors is something
that they gain.
So this could be, validation.

(10:31):
This could be attention, admiration.
Right? So it's not an escape. It's more
of a means. Right? And I think the
other challenge too, Jackie, is,
a lot of people look at this and
they look at these guys like, oh my
gosh. I can't believe this guy did this.
What a monster. What a sicko.
It's interesting that that's people's response because I'm
like,

(10:51):
I don't know. It makes to me, it
makes a ton of sense. Here's a guy,
successful driven dude who has been watching action
movies for his his whole youth. Meanwhile, the
character in these movies is not married.
He is being lusted after and lusting after
women,
in every movie, in every episode over and
over and over. You know, the women are

(11:12):
constantly being shown as this trophy to be
achieved and then your hero in the movie
is whether it be James Bond or whoever
it is, is getting this trophy and conquering
it. And I think we as a society
are not I I I don't think we
I think we wanna blame these guys rather
than James Bond because we've all watched James

(11:32):
Bond movies. And so we don't want that
to be the problem because we're like, well,
it can't be the problem because I watched
it, and I'm not a sex And so
why would him watching it? But, again, I
think that's ignoring, especially my population.
It's ignoring successful men and their desire to
be influential as a young man. If I'm
watching that when I'm 12 years old, it's
the playbook that I'm about to execute on

(11:53):
for the rest of my life. And I
I think, you know
so to bring this back to my initial
question,
I don't know if guys are recovering from
what they need to recover from, And I
think that's why we see the relapse rate
vary a lot higher than it should be
is
even though these guys are trying their hardest
to quit a sex and porn edition, I
think that's the problem. I think

(12:14):
they're trying to not do sex and porn,
but I don't think that's really what the
issue was. I think the issue was exactly
what you said, Jackie. They are under the
impression that
this is what successful men do. And so
it's their their system's really not that alarmed.
It's like, oh, I'm just I'm just I'm
just trying to I'm get I'm getting money.
I'm buying the cars they want. I'm buying

(12:35):
the outfits they want. I'm speaking in the
way they want, and now I'm getting in
trouble for something that I've been literally perfecting
for the last thirty years.
That is why I think we we see
issues with sobriety is I don't know if
they're recovering from the right thing. What are
your thoughts on that?
Yeah. I would I mean, those I I
have a lot of thoughts on that. I

(12:55):
would say,
a, I mean, I think two things in
our society that we would say hold the
most power are sex and money. Mhmm.
And so, yeah, if a young boy is
watching all of these action adventure movies and
watching the hero of the show,
they're usually, you know, driving nice cars, they're

(13:16):
dressing very nice, and they have a lot
of women.
We are literally showing them this is what
success looks like. Mhmm. My question would always
be, like, if somebody came in and was
saying this to me, I would say,
what was going on with that 12 year
old Mhmm. That he didn't feel enough Mhmm.
And was looking to this movie
as a role model to make what feel

(13:39):
better? Like, what what was that speaking to?
What was that resonating with? And why were
was that 12 year old already not enough?
Mhmm. That oh my gosh. So I want
and I wanna highlight this because there's a
lot of successful guys who actually came from,
pretty put together families. Guys, I wanna highlight
this, what Jackie said though.

(13:59):
My I had what everyone would call good
parents. They loved me. They you know, we
were poor, but they did whatever they could
to, you know, I had a I had
a car, old crappy car, but I had
a car to drive when I was 16.
I I mean, they tried so hard to
give me a normal and a good life
despite our financial constraints that we had as
a family. That all being said, there was
a massive emphasis on get good grades, become

(14:21):
successful, save your money, retire early, make financial,
you know, it was a very performance based
household.
We, you know, we were encouraged to get
straight a's. My brother was valedictorian, you know,
as an Eagle Scout and, like, it was
like it was, you know, a successful life
according to my parents was how many things
do successful things do you accomplish? How many

(14:43):
impressive things? How many things that nobody else
can accomplish can you accomplish? And that sounds
like good encouraging parents. Right? Here they are
wanting me to become successful.
And so, you know, it's con you know,
hey. Here's here's,
how to live a debt free life. Hey.
Don't, you know, it's fine to have nice
things, but buy them cash. Don't get buried
in debt showing off and buying stuff you
can't afford. Right? All these fine you know,

(15:04):
one would say, oh, great advice. But if
I look back now that I know about,
like, what we're supposed to be taught as
a human, never once were like, oh, I'm
so happy you are you and I will
love you whether you're a magician, a poet,
whether you decide to move to Nicaragua and
spend your life trying to clean water for
one of the tribes or community.

(15:25):
There was never any, hey. I love you
for whatever you decide to do. It was,
oh, hey. Go become this. And that's trauma.
I know people don't think that's trauma, but
your parents
putting a massive emphasis on you being
accomplished and successful. I know America would say
that that is good parenting,
and that's I'm not saying it's bad parenting.

(15:47):
I'm saying there's a lot of things that
are being left out by that. So to
answer your question, Jackie, what was happening to
little Roland when that was happening? Yeah. I
was being told
that I that you that successful people are
successful
and looked at the way they are and
respected because of the things they've accomplished. And
that was what I was told. And I
wasn't just told that by my parents, Jackie.
I was told that by teachers, mentors. I

(16:08):
was told that by by other successful men.
I mean, I I I had a retreat
this weekend, and one of my clients, it
was so sad. He was we're having this
discussion and he was he bought a a
yacht, a small yacht, and he was having
his eight year old son drive it. And
he was thinking he was being a good
father. You know, he told his son? He
said, and why does daddy have this? And

(16:29):
he says, because he works hard. And he
was so proud to tell his son that.
And now he's crying in front of a
group of men in my recovery groups that
that was what he shoved down his son's
throat because now his son, fast forward, his
son's 21.
He's texting him and he says, dad, help
me make help teach me how to make
more money is what he his son just
texted him this. So my point of all

(16:50):
of this is
if to to your point, if we are
being shown this is what success is, and
you name it. And and, again, don't act
like women are immune to this. 50 Shades
of Grey was a book written for women,
and it was basically saying, this is what
oh, this is a fantasy that women have.
And what was he? A trust fund billionaire

(17:10):
who drove around in Audi r eight and
flew around in his helicopter and had a
red room where he courted all of these
women. So, again, it's just my point is
I think we need this I think we
need to stop being so appalled that this
is occurring and really look at why this
is occurring because I don't I don't think
men really want to be doing this. I
think that they're being brainwashed into this. Would
you agree? Yeah.

(17:31):
Yeah. Well, I I think for you, you
mentioned that your family was poor, so the
message is coming from your parents were don't
be like us Mhmm. Yeah. Which says something
to a young boy or a girl, whoever.
I don't care the gender. Right? It says
something to them
because we do see ourselves coming from our
parents. Mhmm. And if they're telling us, don't

(17:52):
be like me,
that gets confusing at pretty young ages. Mhmm.
And it turns into some beliefs and beliefs
about self.
But, also, if parents are extremely
wealthy and successful,
kids are afraid of being less than. Mhmm.
They set that bar
at
be like us, and kids are afraid to

(18:13):
struggle. Kids are afraid, at 21,
to not be making enough money. Yes.
And and so either of those are gonna
get in the way of developing that authentic
self.
Exact oh my gosh. You're so Jackie, now
I see why I was referred to you.
You're just a smart person. That is such
a great thing to say. We are accidentally

(18:36):
making them be afraid of being poor, making
them afraid of not having their life not
add up to anything, making that and so,
again, I know parents mean well by this,
but, you know, what are you doing to
that boy? You're putting he is now surfing
because that's what I did. By by age
10,
they were so focused on me performing

(18:57):
and be and living a big life, which
again, they thought they were being good parents.
So did I. So did everyone.
But you know what that caused me to
do? I am constantly surveying who's the most
impressive guy in the room and why.
And what did our society show? He's usually
super wealthy. So then what happened? I became
friends with him. I became friends with all
of his friends. And what would I find
out?

(19:17):
They aren't faithful a lot of the times,
and part of their culture is, oh, how
many women can you sleep with? How how
many young women can you sleep with? How
many, married
women can you get to cheat on their
husbands? I mean, it's this it's this, how
do we prove that we've made it. Right?
Because once you once once you've made it
ish, you know, now there's not you know,

(19:38):
you've bought all the stuff. Now the only
thing to prove is how do I keep
proving this essentially to myself and my and
my peers? How do I how do I
walk the walk? And if part of successful
male culture is, well, how many women how
many women wish they could be with you
instead of their husband? If that's the measure
of success, which I know this sounds insane
to some listeners, but, guys, this is this
is just kinda been running in successful male

(20:00):
circles for, I would say, over fifty years.
Right? And so when I say what are
you recovering from, that's what I mean is,
like, do you really understand how this happened?
And don't just listen to everybody in your
12 step meeting telling you that you're coping
with negative,
emotions and you have an intimacy disorder.
You might be doing those things, but don't
just take their word for it. Really understand

(20:21):
how did this happen. Right? Because my own
story, if I rewind to how this happened,
I hated cheaters, and I was never going
to cheat ever ever ever. Now I was
a flirt. Don't get me wrong. I've flirted
since I was, like, 14. But I was
like, no. No. No. I'm never going to
cross that line until I met these successful
men, and I've known their wives. I knew
their families. And all of a sudden, it's
like

(20:41):
if I remember the first year, I was
just like, oh my gosh. I was so
disappointed. Like, here's all my mentors and idols
and they all are cheaters.
And, but it wasn't more than a year
later before it was like, well, I guess
this is just the way that it is.
And next thing you know, I became one
of them. And and it's it's really sad.
I hate I'm filled with emotion saying that
out loud because here's this kid just trying
to just trying to succeed. That's all I

(21:02):
wanted. I just wanted to be somebody one
day. And my mentors taught me how to
become somebody that,
and again, I can't I can't I can't
blame them because ultimately I went along with
it. But, you know, when you see your
mentor saying, hey. This is what success looks
like, and he's the most celebrated man in
the industry, and everybody knows his name, and
everybody subscribed to his email list, and he's

(21:23):
sending out 1,300,000
emails, and he eats
breakfast at Mar a Lago,
and I'm supposed to not do as he
does. I think that's the challenge that we're
talking about. So, I love what how you
articulated that. Right? Teaching your
kids not to be afraid of not having
money, to be afraid of not having a

(21:43):
relationship,
to be afraid you know, now is all
this scarcity, and what's that gonna come down
to? Yeah. I like that. So my next,
my next question here is,
let's get into the truth of the relationship.
So
this one oh, man. This is always dangerous
territory, but we need to go here because
I think it just it it just it
needs to be said because I think for

(22:04):
a couple to thrive after this, I think
they need to understand it's no joke. I
mean, this is a you're dealing with two
complex hurt humans,
who are going to be living in a
reality that you do not wanna live in,
and now they have to somehow stay married
to each other. It's a it's a it's
a big feat. So, so, Jackie, when you're
looking at this, you know, I what I
we here the elephant in the room is,

(22:26):
and we all know this, we're asking the
perpetrator and the victim to sleep in the
same bed and stay married to each other,
right, which we never ask the perpetrator and
the victim to do that, and we're asking
them to do that. I mean, I'm I'm
not always asking them to do that. Like,
I I usually say to this partner True.
What do you need to feel safe? Yes.
True. I love that. If that means he
sleeps in one of the other rooms for

(22:48):
a while,
then can you agree to that? Is that
does that make sense to you? And how
do we try to keep some relational aspect
in place? I love that. So
we don't have to do that. Some couples,
though, she would get more triggered if he
was in the next room. Right.
And so to me, I'm like, I'm not
gonna judge you, and you shouldn't judge yourself,

(23:10):
but you have to find that answer to
the question of what is gonna make me
feel safe right now. I love that. And
that and, Jackie, you spoke to one of
the
300. We're not gonna speak about all of
them today because it would take we'd be
on a podcast until until midnight. But you
spoke to one of
many aspects, which is,
you know, you gotta watch out for your

(23:30):
nervous system. I mean, it's a, you know,
like, yes, there's this stereotypical kind of way
that people go about this. But to your
point, like, yeah, if I mean, if you
are if you are trapped in your own
personal hell when he's not in the room
by you or sleeping on the floor sleeping
on the floor in the room,
I've had guys do that. They'll set up
a air mattress next to the bed so

(23:50):
that she knows
where he is and what he's doing. But,
yeah, you you bring up the point of
kinda where I wanna go with this is
it's intricate and complex. I mean, you can't
you can't just say, tell a couple, hey.
Go do this. His acting out behavior is
different. His past is different.
How he was raised and his parents were
different.
The relational dynamic is different. How she how

(24:12):
he got caught
was different.
Did he slip and when he did slip,
how were the slips discovered? I mean, all
of these things present unique challenges, and that's
kinda what I wanted to get into, Jack.
And again, I don't wanna get into the
weeds here because this is a yeah. Like
I said, this is a this is a
we could do sixty
sixty podcasts on the complexities of each of
these unique situations.

(24:33):
My that's not my point of this. My
point is
to speak psychologically
to what couples are really gonna need to
do to get past this because I think
the, you know, there's the magic and this
is what really annoys me about about about
the space is there's this, oh, if he
learns empathy then everything's gonna be okay. Oh,
if he just gets sober then blank.

(24:55):
If he and again, I think I don't
I don't think these statements are really documented
anywhere because we all know they're not true,
but they are thrown around a lot that,
oh, if he just got sober and learned
some empathy that, and he crawls down and
learns how to be in the pain with
you, that you guys are going to heal.
And I am sorry. That is not true.

(25:15):
You could learn how to empathize whether you
could crawl down in the hole with her.
You could get sober and you could do
all of that in the first three months
and that is
not a guarantee that you two are gonna
be in this thriving connected relationship with great
communication that her nervous system's gonna be calmed
down. I mean, that's just completely not true
at all. There's so many more aspects to
that. Jackie, what do you say as I'm

(25:35):
trying to expand people's understanding of,
hey, don't hang your hat on some of
these things because there actually is no data
that proves you are gonna be okay if
he does get those things.
Yeah. I mean, some of that, like,
why don't they have empathy? They probably disconnected
from that years ago. Mhmm. Like, they left
that at 12 years old. Mhmm. Or younger.

(25:57):
Yeah. Mhmm. Yeah. And so
when you were saying that you like to
change it from what are you recovering from
recovering from,
I also like to say, what are we
recovering?
Yeah. What are we recovering here? Right? And,
typically, the answer is
we're recovering
the self. Mhmm. The self that
was lied to in the messages,

(26:18):
the self that was told all of these
things are what you do, and you feel
some peace and contentment and satisfaction in your
life,
which isn't what they're feeling because they're they're
pursuing,
thinking, okay. The next woman I sleep with
is going to
finally fill that hole that I'm trying to
fill with money and with women and with

(26:39):
things
and with other men's,
perceptions of me. Mhmm. And
and and so, yeah, that's that's also part
of what we are recovering.
Right.
And and for both people, like the husband
and the wife,
they have to go through that recovery process.
I don't know that our world

(27:00):
I'll just I don't know the world. I
don't haven't lived in other countries. So let
me just speak to to our country. I
don't know that we do a good job
growing up individuals,
healthy individuals. Yeah. I think a lot of
things would be different if that was our
focus. Mhmm. And so
I think for both people, they're going to
have to
figure out how did how did I land

(27:21):
here. And, I mean, that's a that's a
well timed place a question for a partner
to ask. Like,
why do you think or what about your
story explains why you ended up marrying a
sex addict Mhmm. Or whatever we're calling it.
What got you here? Mhmm. They have to
figure out that because if I don't ask
the question, at some point, they're gonna ask
themselves the question.

(27:42):
So we also have to explore that question
for partners.
You know, the the addict is having to
make sense of
how did this come to be? How did
I land up here? Because that was not
what I was charting my path towards.
It's a it's your
and both part I I agree with you
because there's a growth edge there for both

(28:02):
of us. Right? I know exactly why I
ended up here. I was raised in a
performance based household where
that was what you did. You you life
was life was getting 1% better every day,
and that is a very common message. Like
you said, in this country,
my daughter doesn't live in this country. She
lives in another country, and
I,

(28:24):
I as much as I wish I got
to see her more, I am not that
mad about her not being in this country
because down there,
they're just the energy is so different. It's
a you know, they're not performance based. No
one no one cares what you have or
what you're gonna have. They care about who
you are today, what kind of friend you
are. It's just a very different,

(28:46):
you know, and, there's other you know, every
country kinda has their own little ways. I'm
sure they have their all their own little
problems. But to your point,
the
I got here through a series of beliefs.
My wife married somebody with those beliefs, and
that is always kind of interesting is,
now does she know that my belief set

(29:08):
would create compulsive sexual behavior? No. She did
not know that. If she knew that, she
would would not have gotten with me. But
she got with a with with somebody with
my belief system and, you know, she's done
a ton of her work. Yeah. There's tons
of there's tons of codependency
there. She's been she was trained to her
she was raised in a very religious house,
right? So everything was always something outside of

(29:28):
you. You you are not important. It's God
that's important. It's Jesus that's important. It's, you
know, so it was always
you can't solve problems. Things outside of you
are going to solve problems. And so she
found me very attractive because I am a
professional problem solver. I'm very good at solving
problems and
and have I I mean, honestly, when she

(29:50):
met me, I had no problems. You know,
I built enough businesses to the point where,
I could I could kind of avoid I
could buy my way out of problems. And
so to her, right, that was like, oh,
wow. Perfect. This was where I was supposed
to land. So to your point, now here,
her and I are on a whole separate
journey which kinda leads me to the next
topic of discussion which is
what what is recovery actually. Right? And so

(30:13):
I love I like that segue way is,
you know, you know, she should be asking
why would I get with someone like him.
Right? Because it shows her her growth edge
as well. Right? So now her and I
are both taking a step back, and we're
like, okay. I've got my work to figure
out why am I latched on to these
things and why is it hard? Because, I
mean, I'll be completely transparent with you, Jackie.

(30:34):
There are acting out,
brain pathways
that I miss, man. I miss that I'm
pissed I can't go get attention in that
way. I loved it. It felt so great
to get the spotlight on me in that
way and have all these things said about
me,
and I am mad that I can't do
that anymore, you know, obviously, not my authentic

(30:54):
self is mad. My my egos in me
are mad.
But nonetheless, now we have had to take
the step back, and I've had to say,
okay.
What beliefs do I wanna believe? Because the
ones that I was believing are not I'm
not proud of the legacy that I was
living. But now she's having to ask herself
a set of questions as well, and I
think that's
relational recovery. Am I right? Mhmm. Yeah. I

(31:17):
mean, I I think part of that
you know, I I've worked with partners who
are very successful women themselves,
and they can't they're very successful. They're very
intelligent. They just can't figure out what happened
in their marriage.
And so they're like, this is one area
of my life that is a disaster and
that I don't know what to do about.

(31:38):
Other women,
you know, they do marry into because in
a lot of these action movies
I mean, their focus is on the women
in terms of obtaining them, not about who
these women are as individuals. Right?
And so we also find some of those
women who are looking to
marry well and not necessarily
figure out who they are and what do

(32:00):
they wanna pursue in their life. That gets
missed a lot, especially in
religious
communities because
most in at least in patriarchal
religions,
we're not asking women who you are. We're
telling them the most important thing you can
be is a wife and a mother.
Mhmm. And, I mean, the truth is not

(32:22):
not all women are cut out to be
moms,
and not all women are gonna get married.
Mhmm. And so they have to figure out
like, again, sometimes
those things external are defining who they are
or who they should be,
but that's an internal process. We can't define
that that self
externally, or we're always gonna
run into some problem

(32:44):
that stops us, and we're like, okay.
And and I think sometimes that's where it's
like, okay. Well, what else can I
obtain? What else can I do to fix
this,
instead of going inward? Mhmm. Because I think
for a lot of people,
the exciting work comes, but sometimes they're very
scared of going inward.

(33:04):
Yeah. It's a it's,
well, I mean, if you especially for especially
for a lot of women because men are,
I think,
the you know, encouraging men to become self
made is definitely more of a thing that
we see happen for men. It's definitely more
on social media and the, you know, self
made males. You know, it's it's it's we're
trying to catch up for lost time with

(33:24):
women and and and change that narrative, and
we're doing a pretty good job, I think.
Yeah. Yes. But, you know, we have we
have hundreds and thousands of years to undo
some of that, especially kind of like you
said, religious,
sex,
you know, those communities, they, you know, there
is
it's hanging on a little bit longer there
just because of how it's been written. Now

(33:45):
they're not saying, oh, women are nothing. That's
not what they're saying. It's just, you know,
the the books are written as all the
women being this nurturing motherly,
figure. Right? And so Mhmm. They're just they're
not getting that message of what are you,
you know, and I'm gonna I'm gonna somebody
needs to get credit for this. I don't
know who invented this, but I'm sure you've
heard of it, Jackie.
You know, when when guys

(34:07):
are in my program, they're all kind of,
talking about how how tough this is. It's
because they really botched
the system up when they did what they
did. There's there's somebody who invented the and
again, I don't know who did it, but
it was t's, a's, and h's.
So for everybody who's listening to this via
audio, so there's relationships that are a t

(34:27):
shape, right, where the one partner is is
on top of the other partner. So imagine
on that t alphabet t, if you took
that bottom of the t out, the top
of the t would fall down, the whole
thing would collapse.
And there's a lot of relationships that are
set up that way where one person basically
runs the show and the other person's just
kind of around for the ride. Then there's
a's. Right? So picture the letter a, capital

(34:50):
letter a. So they're now leaning on each
other. So, okay. This is a little bit
healthier here. There's, you know, one partner. If
they pulled away, the other partner would fall
down. If the other partner pulled away, then
the other part would fall down. Right? So
there's some there's some cohesiveness
here, and both people are bringing together something.
But regardless, you still pull one side out
and the whole thing collapses.
And it's funny. I think a lot of

(35:10):
people see a's as a healthy
historically have seen it as a healthy relationship.
But, again, how healthy is it when you
yank one side and there's total collapse of
the, you know, is is that really what
is that the healthiest way to live? Or
there's h's. Right? And so picture of the
capital letter h. Right? There's an independent party
thriving who knows who they are and loves

(35:31):
who they are. Over here, there's another independent
party who knows who they are and loves
who they are. And then there's this connection
between them making the letter h, and it's
just a the connection's as simple as merit.
Hey. We're going to do this amazing life
together, and together, we will have an enhanced,
you know, my life has and it's gotten
better with the addition of you, and your
life got better with the addition of me.

(35:52):
Hey, man. I also know that you don't
need me, and I have the peace knowing
that I don't need you.
That is a new idea of relationship. I
think there are still a lot of people
who who that scares them. I'm not sure
why it scares them. Maybe you can speak
to that. But I think a lot I
I think to your point, a lot of
this is history and culture
teeing us up

(36:12):
for relationships to kind of not go well,
and then surprise, surprise, infidelity happens, and then
it really doesn't go well, and we can't
even find a way to get out.
I don't know if you've heard of those
letter analogies before. I'm sure you have.
Yeah. What,
speak to your spin on that because I
do think to recover from this, I think
any sort of dependency that the that the

(36:35):
she that the betrayed partner has on her
husband
is it causes a ton of problems. It's
just it's it is you know, you're trying
to rely on somebody who has proven to
be temporarily unreliable.
That's I mean, that's a mess. Right? Yeah.
Yeah. So, I mean, I think but when
we get beyond,
we have to stay together

(36:57):
or I need you for whatever reason or,
you know, for the male, I need you
to take care of the kids and make
all of this other stuff that is part
of my appearance. I need you to help
that
function and go along and look good.
It we get in the way because we
need each other. We get in the way
of choosing each other. We might have chosen

(37:18):
each other in the beginning. Most people chose
each other in the beginning.
But then we kind of devolve almost into
these arranged marriages.
And nobody's choosing everybody anybody in that situation.
Right? We're doing what needs to be done.
And
so, yeah, I can see where infidelity starts
to come in
because we're searching for some novelty. Both people

(37:41):
are. They're looking for something that's out of
the normal routine of the day in, day
out of their life
because that's not very exciting.
Mhmm.
And
now I think we can like, when we
start to do that internal work and we
are recovering that authentic self
that we lost a long time ago or
we lost parts of. Maybe we didn't lose

(38:02):
all of it, but we lost parts of
it.
And we start to reclaim it, and it
starts to
show up and drive things instead of the
ego driving things or fear driving things,
or this need
for something for this person. I need you
because I'm financially dependent or whatever.

(38:22):
When we start to move away from those
things that are in the couples together,
not only we have to have two individuals,
like the h.
Like and
her being her authentic self calls you out
to be your authentic self.
And likewise, you call her out to be
herself.
And nobody's gonna do it perfectly,

(38:44):
but we can start to remind each other,
like, hey.
What what are you doing? You're strong. You're
smart.
Like, come on. I know you can do
this. Why are you why are you falling
apart? Or why, Again, this is not early
in recovery. You would not say to a
partner, why are you falling apart?
Right? Their whole life just got turned upside
down, and they were betrayed by somebody that

(39:05):
they love. Mhmm. But down the road, couples
start to find that language in a way
that they can joke with each other, but
also call each other into
who they are and who
we've grown to be.
And I also say at that point because
because I think when we are pursuing things
external to us, whatever that is,

(39:26):
there's always gonna be an edge to that.
I mean, at some point, there's only so
many women to sleep with before you still
wake up the next day and you're like,
I still am kinda feeling empty. That didn't
quite
make me feel good enough. Maybe I'll go
pursue
the praise of other men. Right? But at
some point, you're like, yeah, it's not quite

(39:47):
working.
That's usually when I start to see people
if they haven't come in because their relationship
blew up because
of a disclosure or a discovery.
But when we're looking at who that self
is and growing that and that evolves every
year
in one way or another,
that's endless novelty. Mhmm.

(40:09):
And that for in a relationship where there's
also that
security because
we are choosing each other. Even after all
the shit we've been through can I say
that? Yep. Okay. Even after all the shit
we've been through, at the end of this,
we chose each other.
And
that's some powerful stuff. That's some security and
some safety that is reestablished,

(40:31):
and we have a
a formula for
ongoing novelty.
Mhmm. Yeah. The the
what you said is and this is a
sensitive topic, and I'd love you're probably well,
I don't know. We're both really direct. Maybe
we'll both butcher it.
We'll try to censor each other and make
that but what you're you're hitting on a

(40:53):
topic that
everyone's scared to talk about. And,
my wife and I got to a point
where we were able to talk about it
and finally, she wasn't she she wasn't,
taking offense to it. So for the men
listening to this, just so you know, I
did not really breach this topic of discussion
with my wife until we were two years
in. So if you are listening to this

(41:15):
and you are thinking about breaching this topic
of discussion and you are not and you
are not at least a year in, probably
closer to two years in, I would highly
recommend not bringing this up. This is this
is something you could talk to your therapist
or your couple's therapist about. This is not
a
living
room, a bedroom conversation. This is something to
do with a mediator.
So but, Jackie, we need to talk to
it because it is it's the truth. It

(41:36):
really is the truth.
As humans, we create realities. And as you
can imagine, when you cheat on your wife,
she's going to create a reality where you
are,
a liar. You have the capability of lying
to someone that you love most. You have
the capability of lying and having her not
know that you're lying. Right? So think about
this. This is all testing in her reality.

(41:57):
She
has she might have the idea that you
aren't very attracted to her anymore, that you
she has become boring.
Maybe she's too old, she's too fat, she's
too wrinkly,
that you're into younger women,
that,
she,
you know, the the you know, anyways, my
point is she is going to have a
reality
full of the stuff that I just said,

(42:17):
and that's not on a clock. I would
say that most women listening to this are,
like, yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. And so
so my I'm bringing this up, they say,
she is now gonna have to be with
you
with that reality that she's living with.
But Jackie, there's, there's another there's other few
things that we need to
call out which is

(42:38):
there's other beliefs that she's gonna have, which
is any guy who could do this to
me
is a blank.
Guys who guys who look at porn are
a blank. Right? And so if you have
these beliefs,
I don't know if you can I don't
I don't think your relationship can't I I

(42:59):
think the beliefs need to be changed or
your relationship will you'll hit these buttchels? I
mean, because think about it. If you believe
that every guy who does this
is inconsiderate and doesn't doesn't think women are
equal, you know, they think they they think
less of women. They don't respect women. They
objectify women. He's gonna be checking out your
sister. He's gonna be checking out your he's
gonna be checking out your daughter's

(43:20):
friends, right, like so if that is what
you think this guy is,
Jackie, come on, you can't you can't have
a thriving marriage if that's what you think.
And so I mean, you know that The
successful outcome would be to end that marriage.
Yeah. Correct. Your sister say, keep your daughter
safe Correct.
And move away from that. Right?
Yes. It's a it is and and and,

(43:40):
Jackie, you're hitting on the thing that people
this needs to be discussed. And here's the
reason I think people wanna shy away from
it is a lot of these ladies, Jackie,
don't wanna change their belief system. They want
guys who look at porn to be that.
They want cheaters to be men like that.
And so, like, it's really hard for them
to, like, oh, I don't wanna soften that

(44:00):
belief. Like, guys who do that, they are
that. And guys who look at porn, they
are and so but again, here's the challenge,
ladies. You're married to a guy who did
that, so you have to face the facts.
Is he not one of those guys or
is he? And if he is,
do you really think your meal to have
a thriving marriage
under those under the under that new belief

(44:22):
system? If he is one of those men
and those men
are this,
come on. Why like and that is one
thing, Jackie, it drives me crazy in this
field is, like, why aren't we speaking to
that? Like,
you if the significance of these behaviors
equals that, do you really think you're gonna
be able to have a thriving marriage if
that's the significance of what he's done? And,

(44:44):
I have my belief as to why people
don't hit this. I think it's an uncomfortable
conversation. I think women do not wanna be
asked to change the significance of this because
they are pissed and they disagree with all
of it. And so to asking them to
kind of soften their belief system is like,
why? I don't wanna change my belief system.
This is messed up. The guys do this.
I agree with all of that. And

(45:04):
isn't there a mountains of evidence to suggest
that the guys doing this are not
sickos, perverts, hate women, hate that you know,
don't we do you, like, is your is
don't we have enough evidence to suggest that
your husband actually doesn't fall into that category?
Are you following what I'm saying, Jackie? Is
there any fallacy to what I'm hitting at?
Because I really do. Like, we kept hitting

(45:24):
these things. I kept telling my wife. I'm
like, honey, if you think that I did
that for those reasons, I don't know if
we're gonna be able to have a great
marriage.
Those men exist.
They're out there, and they do tend to
get married.
But you are right that that's gonna be
a hard marriage to thrive in as the
female counterpart.

(45:45):
Mhmm. And sometimes I see these partners
in their second marriage, and they're coming in
with a sex addiction partner.
And they're like, my first partner was, now
this one. And I'm like, yeah. We might
need to look at some things here because
this is this is starting to be a
pattern.
And maybe

(46:05):
while this new husband
may seriously and genuinely
seem like he wants to do
work and put in the effort
and wants to have a thriving mess marriage.
Your last one didn't. And so we're gonna
have to do some of the healing from
that one that didn't get done
in this relationship as well while we're healing

(46:27):
this relationship.
But you're gonna have to be learning to
separate what's from my previous marriage and what's
from this marriage.
I see. Now I see where you're going.
So, similarly,
if we apply it so let's say this
is your first marriage and let's say
your partner did cheat on you,
in a compulsive addictive way,

(46:48):
the same thing kind of applies. It's like
are you let's say you didn't have a
previous marriage, but you can apply the stuff
you see on TV. Right? Once a cheater,
always a cheater.
You know, oftentimes men, like because that's that's
the challenge I think for men is cheaters
are depicted as,
guys who didn't have the guts to break
up and

(47:08):
were just trying to find the next backup
plan to trade over to,
or they're just seen as total inconsiderate
objectification
a holes. Right?
Right. I don't know. My program's full of
men and neither of them fall into either
of those. They're normal guys obsessed with their
wives,
want nothing more than to be with their
wife forever. They're heartbroken at the idea that

(47:30):
the family could have been broken up. I
mean, I just you know, I'm surrounded by
the beauty of these driven men. And my
program, I mean, my program is no joke.
It is as intense as intense gets. I
mean, they are we have in person retreats
that we do and I am there connecting
with the group in the deepest of way
possible.
I see committed guys. So but, Jackie, again,
their partner's seeing a very different story.

(47:52):
How do we breach this discussion? Because, I
mean, guys here's the thing. Guys can't ring
it up. If guys say, hey. Your reality
needs to change,
that is not gonna be welcomed
very,
very well. So what do we do as
a couple? Because, I mean, Jackie, the truth
is her reality does need to change if
you guys are gonna have a good relationship,
but the guy can't bring it up. So,
I mean, we're kinda, like, in this crappy

(48:14):
spot of, like, he caused the problem,
and now her reality does have some beliefs
about him that are gonna prevent them from
having a great marriage. But, again, what do
we do? I mean, it's off limits for
the guy to bring it up because he's
the one who caused all of this. How
does a couple handle that?
I mean, the way we would handle it
from our end, and then I'll talk about

(48:35):
the couple.
So we do some nonconventional
things in our therapy clinic.
So often, like, each person has their own
individual therapist, but we also get release assigned.
So whoever I'm working with, the addict or
the partner,
I'm gonna be hearing this from them, and
I'm gonna be talking it about it to

(48:56):
my colleague.
And they're gonna be like, ah, yeah. I
can see that.
And so we're gonna try to get that
to be brought up in an individual session.
We're gonna try to flush or not individual.
We're gonna try to flush that out in
a couple session.
And sometimes I may be the one bringing
it up because he's like, I
I, no. I cannot do it. And I'm
like, I'll do it. And usually, I'll just

(49:18):
say,
often for women,
there is this belief.
And
they were supposed to marry prince charming,
and prince charming was never supposed to hurt
them at ever because he's charming
and he's a prince.
And what do we do when prince charming
gets off the horse and steps on you?

(49:38):
And so we have to talk about those
beliefs.
The beliefs underneath all of this that get
in the way of
doing relational repair, doing relational work so that
you guys can be successful.
Mhmm.
So we'll we'll bring that up if if
that's coming out. And we do do the
individual I mean, that's one of the reasons
is gonna hear different things

(49:59):
in our individual sessions that we know need
to be addressed in couple sessions, in those
relational sessions.
So we'll bring it up that way.
For the couple,
you know, I
I think
sometimes for the the partner, if they're seen
and he's talking about beliefs he is having

(50:20):
to challenge
and where those came from and how they
were not serving, I think it's fair to
say,
have you ever thought about the beliefs you
got that you weren't aware you got?
And she may be like, no. My beliefs
are fine.
But at some point I mean, hopefully because
I've also seen some partners who refuse to
do any work. Mhmm. That's also gonna make

(50:40):
it hard to repair a relationship and make
it one that thrives. Mhmm.
So most of the time, I would say
those are the exceptions or those are the
outliers.
Most of the time, the couples that we're
working with,
she is gonna start to get curious even
if she denies it initially.
She may bring it up with her therapist
and be like, my husband asked me this
weird question,

(51:01):
and would I have beliefs that I need
to challenge?
I mean, every therapist is gonna be like,
oh, I love this question.
Yeah. It's a it's a but you see
how delicate it is because I mean, what
we're asking these women to do is is
change a belief
that culturally
everyone subscribes to. Right? Like, there is the

(51:21):
concept of, oh my gosh, if he's gonna
two time you and be with another woman,
yeah, get get out. And so, you know,
I think that's it it is really tough
because as much as she has bought into
the sexician field, she's understanding that guys can
be sexually compulsive, she's understand that this is
actually not,
as uncommon as unfortunately it should be. So

(51:44):
she's she's buying in, but I do I
do think that this is a big hang
up is we are asking these women to
change a belief from
I could for give a guy who slept
with another
woman.
Like, I could I could be married to
him and I could understand
that he could do that and that it
would have nothing to do with me or

(52:05):
our family or or his character or his
character, Jackie. Like, because that's the other thing
is you'll hear all sorts of people say
that this
speaks to your character. Again, I gotta disagree.
I I
the guys in my groups, this does not
speak to their character at all. This is
some weird
compulsive thing that is happening
because of a long chain of societal influences,

(52:26):
parental influences, childhood experiences to being exposed to
things at ages that they shouldn't have been
exposed to.
You know, I see you know, to me,
I don't think this is a reflection of
their character. I think this is a reflection
of their belief system which is largely influenced
by their society, their church, their parents, and
whatever else. And now this behavior is spitting
out at the end. But I to me,
I think that I think it's I think

(52:47):
to jump to the conclusion that this is
a reflection of who your husband is is
dangerous because I do
I wonder what's gonna happen to you too
then if that's the case. Right? Because I
mean, essentially what you're saying is I'm gonna
stay with an a hole who kinda sucks
and lies.
And I don't know, man. Can you have
a good can you have a good marriage
if that's what your decision is?
Yeah. And that's where like, sometimes I I've

(53:08):
said to clients,
like, if you have this set of beliefs
about males
and you're telling me you're heterosexual,
now what? Like,
now now what are you gonna do? Because,
like, that does not work. Mhmm. And
so we might need to start challenging
these beliefs that

(53:29):
we just were fed,
and we assumed that they were true. Mhmm.
Like, no doubt you believe that this is
true,
and you believe this has something to do
with character.
You know, I might say to them, like,
I'm never gonna hold anybody accountable for behaviors
that come
because of whatever reasons. Usually, at this point,

(53:50):
I I kinda have some ideas.
And so I'm I'm saying because of childhood
issues, messages they get around masculinity,
all of these things that land them here,
Like, this person's coming. They're trying to do
the work. They're they're making some improvements. You've
reported that to me.
And so,
like, we might need to challenge these beliefs

(54:10):
that he was given, that you were given,
and
figure out what do you believe.
Well and it's the challenge I think that
I see with
the with when we inject faith
based approaches into mental health,
you know, to me, again, this is not
as you I mean, I'm not telling anybody
can believe whatever they wanna believe for their

(54:31):
faith. That's not what I'm saying. I'm just
thinking when we start combining that with mental
health, especially recovery from something compulsive Mhmm. We're
taking, like, idealistic
purity
kind of standards
and mushing it up against
flawed human beings who are incredibly complex and
make mistakes
every, like, every, like, two minutes. Right? So

(54:53):
I think that's I think the challenge is
we're taking this standard
that, because to me, I've seen it go
both ways. There's either this kind of purity
culture of, oh my gosh, the I you
know, the devil's living inside of this person,
and then that backfires because now the poor
guy feels like
he is you know, something's
horribly wrong with him, and then he's, you

(55:13):
know, gonna burn in a fiery inferno in
the afterlife.
But then I've also see it go the
other way. I've seen it like,
oh, everything's okay. I'm just gonna pray this
whole thing away and all is gonna be
well, and I think we can't pray away
a belief system that we're unaware of having.
And so, you know, I think that that's
I think the challenge with how big this

(55:33):
is is
anytime we're going to just believe something and
slap a label on it and call it
that
without any other levels of curiosity
around how this actually came about and why
this is so common. I mean, I I
I heard a number yesterday that said, well,
only eighteen percent of men fall into us,
addictive or compulsive category. I saw a number

(55:54):
that said sixty eight percent of men
engage in deceptive sexual practices, meaning they are
they are concealing something about their sexuality from
their partner. Sixty eight. So I mean I
mean pretty much you have a really high
likelihood of someone not telling you about completely
telling you about their sexuality.
I think it's naive to say that people

(56:14):
are the problem. I I think if we're
seeing the numbers climb at this rapid of
a rate so quickly
just in the last, you know, thirty years.
I think we have to wonder, come on.
I mean, doesn't the Internet and social media
have to deal with this? And then if
that's the case, how
how flawed are these men,
and is it the container that we're placing
these men in that needs to be addressed?

(56:37):
And I think Mhmm. Again, I I think
that's a difficult topic to breach too because
I think women see that as a an
escape or an out or a way to
shift blame.
I can see where they would say that.
I I I don't share that same belief,
but, again, I'm coming from a a cheater
and an addict standpoint. So, you know, may

(56:57):
am I do I like the idea that
I can shift the cause of this off
of me onto somebody else? So I get
that. You know, am I a little biased?
But I think, Jackie, I think that's kind
of the challenge with looking at this as
a
this person did this thing and ignoring
the plethora in my opinion, plethora
of factors
that would make someone engage in, some sort

(57:19):
of deceptive or,
or compulsive sexual practice. To me, I don't
know. There's a lot of indicators to me
that
that perfectly explain why this is happening, and
the flaws in these individuals' characters
aren't
necessarily one of those things. Now are there
flaws? Sure. But I I think if we're
comparing
the factors of what drove this, I have

(57:40):
never met a young man who couldn't wait
to dehumanize himself and dehumanize others. I think
that happens over time.
Mhmm.
Well and it and it usually starts with
a disconnection from self. Mhmm.
And so,
I mean, I this get this gets into
some of the
conversations you have to have with couples
and individuals

(58:02):
about healthy sexuality.
Mhmm. And,
you know, like, I I'm never going
to define for another person what healthy sexuality
looks like. But I have just had in
a lot of conversations as the two are
talking about this, and we're trying to flush
it out, and we're trying to figure some
things out. And initially,
you know,

(58:22):
it's they're gonna practice, and I will say
it might be awkward at first. Let's not
rule it out because it got awkward
just because we're taking it to a more
vulnerable level than maybe we have in the
past.
And that may feel awkward. Sex can be
very vulnerable. And for a lot of people,
they will avoid that at any price. Right?
They don't they wanna see I mean, this

(58:43):
is Brene Brown's work. We're very attracted to
vulnerability in another person,
Mhmm. But we don't wanna have other people
see our vulnerability.
And so how do we have that
sexual experience together
with vulnerability?
Mhmm.
And, you know, I mean, I'll I'll throw
that question out to couples and say, what

(59:04):
does that look like for you guys? Let's
talk about that. And, you know, we typically
have the two therapists in the room that
we're trying to help facilitate. We've heard some
things in individual that we're trying to also
bring into the conversation,
and, you know, that's a process for them
to figure out, and not a lot of
them are figuring that out before marriage.
Mhmm. Well, then that that that right there

(59:25):
is, and that's kinda how I want I'm
gonna have both of us kinda take our
last jab at,
some advice for this. But I my that
was about to come out of my mouth
what you just said, which was,
you know, if if we're gonna wrap this
podcast up and give you guys something to
think about as individuals and couples, I think
that's what what you just said there. That's
what I would speak to is I think

(59:46):
I think
I know there's a lot of people pointing
a lot of fingers at parents and drama
and all sorts of stuff. And I think
they're all I don't think we can point
one finger at anybody. I think it's the
accumulation of all of the factors, you know.
Yes. Did your parents beat you or did
they just tell you to go to Harvard
Medical School? Both are trauma.
You know, they they need to stay out
of your business and let you become that

(01:00:06):
your parents job are supposed to be let
and the community's job should be raising you
to be the best you.
And then you be you and maybe find
a maybe find a partner that enhances you.
But if you don't, maybe just don't find
a partner or or or a monogamous partner
in the traditional sense. Right? I think that's
where I think everything's kind of gotten screwed
up is we're forcing humans into

(01:00:28):
containers that I don't know humans were ever
supposed to be in. I mean, you know,
we're shoving them into homes and locking their
doors and then saying you and your family
have to figure this out without the support
and, you know, we don't tribally
stick together anymore. We you are on your
own in your own little home.
I think we are in relationships that are

(01:00:49):
very challenging because the constraints on on the
coupleship and the family unit is incredibly hard,
and I don't think there's a ton of
time. And to your point, I don't think
we're asking a lot of questions that we
should have asked before we brought kids into
this world because now here we are tied
to each other for life to a degree
to some extent. Mhmm. And there were a
lot of conversations that we did not have

(01:01:09):
about pornography use and,
you know, is how important is it to
you that couples preserve the sexual energy for
each other? Because like I said, that I
would say women value that more than men.
If they, you know, and and I don't
I don't think men mean that. I think
they've just been kind of groomed to not
really think sex is that big of a
deal because

(01:01:30):
we're just bombarded with the sexual female image
constantly that we
grow up not thinking, oh, I can't wait
to preserve this for my wife and I.
We're drinking it in for twenty years before
we get married. Right? And so, right now
we're supposed to just turn it off. Right?
But these are these are things that need
to be discussed and I think that's my

(01:01:50):
advice to all these couples and the kind
of the whole purpose of me bringing Jackie
on today was
I think together as a couple, if you're
gonna thrive through this or even as a
guy, if you're not married and you just
wanna become
sober and free from all of this, I
think you need to appreciate how dynamic and
big this is. It is
There are so many stones that you're gonna

(01:02:10):
have to turn over and make sure there's
nothing under there that's causing this. I mean,
it it it is a it is a
big project. It is something you will be
doing for longer than the two to five
years. It is something you'll be doing for
the rest of your life and kinda what
Jackie said, it's fun. I mean, my recovery
groups, these guys love it. Like, that's why
I call it a recovery mastermind is these

(01:02:32):
guys are with the 10 they're with 10
of their of their peers. They're with the
same 10 guys for a year or two
or three, and these guys are turning stones
over together as fast as possible. It's like,
hey, guys. How do we how do we
believe beliefs that we wanna believe, not the
ones that others forced us to believe. Right?
How do we pioneer this? And that's how
I kinda wanna end my portion. I'll have

(01:02:52):
Jackie speak to her advice to you guys.
What I would say is
let go of this purity crap, these ideals,
like, let go of that. If you if
you guys are trying to throw out as
a couple, let go of that. Instead, take
a different approach. My wife and I wear
this like a badge.
We have a very different outlook. We know
that we are living in a society that

(01:03:14):
claims to value monogamy on one hand and
then literally doesn't even look like they value
it whatsoever in every other. We know we're
living in a hypersexual culture. We know that
women are playing into looking like a trophy
to be conquered and that men are wanting
to conquer them and that both parties are
participating in this in this nonsense. Like, my
wife and I are wearing it like a
badge. We understand. We've gotten to ourselves as

(01:03:36):
culture into a bit of a pickle here
with trying to
not do all of this stuff, and and
we and every day is three steps back.
K. So if you guys are listening to
this, if you're not taking at least three
steps forward, if not four or five, then
you are slipping probably back into this because
culturally, they're not doing you any favors. So
that's what I would say is stop let

(01:03:56):
go of ideals and purity and all that
stuff because the truth is humans are complex.
They,
they they are being stimulated all the time
by things and it's convincing them to act
in ways that they probably wouldn't have acted
had this outside influence, not convinced them to.
So that's what I say is team up
as a couple and understand
you guys are fighting a really difficult battle.

(01:04:17):
I know the sex addiction field makes it
look like it's just your husband's fault for
being a sicko.
Guys, that's not what's going on. We live
in like, I don't wanna turn on the
TV and I'm like,
how is it only eighteen percent of men
that are sex acts? Like, I just I
just, like I think that number is
absurdly low. I just I don't believe that
for a second. Well, let me rephrase that.

(01:04:38):
They may not be addicts. How many of
them are violating their values and morals by
doing sexual things that they've come to believe
is okay? So that's that's what I would
say is single guys wear this like a
badge, couples wear this like a badge. You
guys are pioneering
for the first time couples standing up against
this, and this has never been stood up
against. We have we have just been becoming
progressively more and more promiscuous and sexual and

(01:05:00):
open as time goes on. What you guys
are doing is saying, hey. Are we heading
in a good direction? That's what this badge
is. So I would I I would convert
it from this sad thing and say,
alright. Hey. Let's go to war with this
stuff that is really destroying
humanity and if we let it keep going
on police. So anyways, went a little rant
there, but but Yeah. Jackie, what what would
you leave,

(01:05:20):
addicts and couples with,
with this podcast of
honoring the size of this problem.
Yeah. I mean, I I think sometimes they
know the size of the problem. Like, the
partner knows it. She feels it in her
body, or she did at one point,
and you can have her recall that. Like,
look. If this was an easy fix,

(01:05:42):
would those emotions be valid?
The level you felt that pain, would that
be valid if this was a quick fix
or if this was just about you losing
10 pounds?
Like,
this is not about that.
And
I I think it has so much to
do with societal messaging.
And, you know, there's research

(01:06:05):
going back that talks about for for baby
boys. Right?
We will we're holding an infant. And if
we perceive it
as a boy,
we gaze at that baby
seconds less than we will if it's a
girl. Mhmm. That's heartbreaking.
Why why unless we think that's the baby.

(01:06:25):
They have put that baby in boy clothes,
girl clothes. It's the same baby, and it's
the person gazing at the baby who is
applying a bias.
You know, I'll use the example all the
time. Like,
a little you know, we have an 18
old. They've mastered walking. They're kinda figuring out
running. They're running down the sidewalk. They fall.

(01:06:46):
They hurt their you know, they could start
to cry.
What do we say if it's a little
girl?
And what do we say if it's a
little boy? And most people give you different
answers. And I'm like, right. We all know
it.
What we are saying to boys is, you're
fine. Jump up. You're tough.
We're not saying, come here. Invite them into
relationship.
We're not saying that. We're saying that to

(01:07:07):
little girls.
Oh, come here. Let me give you a
kiss. Let me give you a hug. As
though that makes their skinned knee better.
It doesn't. Right? But that's the messaging we
are saying to boys is you're good on
your own.
You don't need anybody,
and that's happening at very young ages.
Mhmm. And and so, yeah, sometimes I will

(01:07:28):
say that to partners and be like, just
I know it's hard to imagine being a
male, but put yourself in their shoes for
a minute.
And don't think of all the good things
you think about males. Think about your spouse
and these messages that they started getting at
very young ages.
Can you have some empathy for why they
landed here?
Of course, they landed here.

(01:07:49):
And, you know, sometimes we have some details
to that story, and they their addicted spouse
has made sense to them or started to
make sense of why I landed in sex
addiction
or whatever they're calling it. I I'm not
gonna fight over language.
Whatever they're calling it, and the partner can
be like,
well, I don't like it. And I'm like,
okay. But can you see it?

(01:08:10):
Can you see why
they would land here?
And usually, they'll they'll they'll be honest and
say,
yeah. I get it. I get it. And
I'm like, yeah. That's what we're working with.
That is what we are working with,
and
that takes time.
We are but I also find,

(01:08:31):
you know, I mean, I've gotten texts on
a Saturday night. Like,
Jackie, I just had
this type of sex that I've never had
before. Remind me to bring it up to
you on Wednesday. And I'm like,
okay.
Thanks for thanks for the headstock. Let me
know. And then when we start talking about

(01:08:51):
it, there's some vulnerability there. There's some connection
there that they've never experienced with sex.
And
they're just like, what what was this? Because,
like, that,
I want that. Mhmm.
And,
like, that seems satisfying to me. That actually
seems
fulfilling. Right? They were vulnerable. The other person

(01:09:12):
was vulnerable. It was a moment. Not that
that's the only type of sex we can
have, but I think it is important to
have
that type of sex. And and I find
when men have that, they I mean, at
least they'll talk to me about it. They're
like, what what is this? How do I
get more of this? What happened? What was
different?
But I think also because I I do

(01:09:32):
men's groups as well.
And when they are getting to know each
other and they're in a room talking with
each other I mean, first of all,
amazing things happen in these men's groups.
And I I feel very privileged. Sometimes they'll
call it, like, the men's group and Jackie,
and I'm like, right. Thank you for letting
me participate.

(01:09:53):
But when they start connecting with each other
on a real level, not on the competitive
or you're my next mark and I'm trying
to pass you up. Right?
Not in that way.
And
there's a genuine connection and they are speaking
to each other in that place.
This praise of the world

(01:10:14):
doesn't really compete with that. Mhmm.
At least that's what they tell me. Right?
And they are saying,
this
this is what I've been yearning for. Mhmm.
This is what I was always looking for
and didn't have. For whatever reason,
that's what they're looking for. And that's not
the messaging we're offering
to men. It's usually I mean, we are
offering it to women, but then if they're

(01:10:36):
heterosexual,
they're just gonna be without that in a
relationship.
That's not gonna
work.
So we have to start challenging these messages
that get in the way of you having
the marriage you want and start, like,
envisioning
what beliefs do we need to have to
have this type of relationship.
Yeah. Yeah.

(01:10:58):
You oh my god. You you said something
that's so true. The guys so I,
one of the things that's on my website,
and it offends some lives, is,
I say recovery needs to be fun. And
she's like, hey. I saw a picture, and
the guys were playing cornhole
at your retreat,
like, and they get mad that these guys
are hanging out with,

(01:11:19):
their brothers in recovery
and they're having fun. And my response back
is, I get that. I get the perspective
because
you're not having
fun. Right? And so, yeah, now here is
this whole ugly thing and, you know, and
and they're enjoying
recovery. But here's my response to it is
just what you said, I really believe, I

(01:11:40):
heard somebody on Rob Wise's podcast who said
this exact same thing. He said he goes,
I don't know. And I I it was
so true when he said it. He goes,
I don't know if guys can actually truly
achieve long term recovery unless they have a
killer connected recovery group. He's like, I just
I don't think you can just do this
in one hour sessions weekly. He's like, I'm
not I'm not sure that's

(01:12:01):
I I I you know, while important, I
don't think it's enough. I think I think
they really need a killer ride or die
support group. And it's funny,
to your point, I don't think it has
that much to do with sobriety and recovery.
I think it has to do with
this group of guys is the thing. This
is why I wanted the millions of dollars.

(01:12:22):
This is why I wanted the novel sexual
like, I wanted to experience something meaningful like
this. And then, yeah, they get that, and
it's like
they're poof magically sober. And it's funny. It's
like we didn't really do anything other than
give them something that was, you know, absent
from Mhmm. Their existence before. And it's and
it's always hard for guys to and I
think here's the biggest challenge, at least that

(01:12:44):
I see is, these guys have never experienced
it. And so when I tell them, oh,
yeah. My group will give you this. They
don't they're like,
they don't even know if they want it
because they're like,
oh, that sounds fine, but what's that have
to do with recovery? Right? They want the
Mhmm. 15 steps to get sober. They want
the the the workbook volume one, two, and
three. You know, it's like, oh, no. Roland,

(01:13:05):
give me something that's gonna be sober. And
it's like, time and time again, it's just
like, they get in the group, they have
this ride or die group of guys that
are in with recovery, and then all of
a sudden,
like, it's like, you know, addict bots are
gone. And, it makes you wonder, right, what's
actually going on from all this? Is this
really a sex and porn addiction, or is
there something else going on here
with men? I mean, these these guys these

(01:13:26):
are not small numbers. When you look at
the numbers Right. Of the men being affected,
I don't know how much this is a
sex and porn addiction is how much this
is a have we put these poor guys
in this environment that has really just
created this bizarre existence where they're acting in
ways that they're totally ashamed of.
Jackie, how do people get a hold of
you? How do they participate in some of

(01:13:47):
these offerings? Where are you located?
Give us the give us the information so
somebody can
So I am
located in Utah, and I own a therapy
practice, and we focus on betrayal trauma, sex
addiction,
infidelity, all those fun things that are deal
breakers at dinner conversations.
That's what my husband says.

(01:14:08):
I have a podcast as well. It's called
thanks for sharing.
You know, I have a website. I do
online,
workshops.
I just started one
yesterday on attachment. We're just gonna kinda focus
on attachment. We've got three men, three women,
which I love kind of keeping it kinda
small and them, you know, from different states

(01:14:28):
and everything coming together, and we're just gonna
focus eight weeks on attachment, give some practical
skills, some practical tools for them to start
implementing while we're doing the workshop. Yep. I
have another one starting next month on breaking
the cycle of relapse.
Sometimes we have to have a targeted, like,
let's figure out why we can't get past
three months.

(01:14:48):
Let's figure out what that is. And
to me, anytime we can work something in
a group
and you're not just on your own to
figure it out or individually,
I I just think it's it's,
that it's a different way of working, and
I think it's a powerful way of working.
Mhmm. And and it doesn't feel so overwhelming

(01:15:09):
Mhmm. With all the things that have to
be worked on and changed.
It is. I'll I'll second that. My wife
and I were in a recovery group together,
very expensive recovery group. I think it was,
like, $30, I think it was, but, it
was it's the only reason we're married. I
mean, Miki, doing this alone is it's stupid.
I'm gonna tell you right now. If you're
trying to do this alone

(01:15:30):
or or dragging your feet and doing this
slow, I mean, gosh, every every day you
try to do this alone and every day
that you're not in maximum action with this,
yeah. I mean, you're you're you're really harming
the long long term livelihood of this kind
of going where it needs to go because
you will. You will get burned out. Everybody
does. And, the only way that you'll avoid

(01:15:51):
that is if you've made a ton of
progress. Because if you're burning out and you
haven't moved the needle a lot, oh, boy.
You're,
you're you're in for a very you're in
for a a really rough emotional state in
a in a really low time. And as
a couple, that can be that can be
extra hard to get out of. So, I
empathize with couples who've who've made it to
that point because it's it's a mess.

(01:16:12):
Jackie, this was so awesome. I like I
said, I I I don't care if you
don't wanna come back on. I am forced
to be back on here in five months
to do this again.
I know my audience, they're gonna love this.
It's just, you know, they want the real
stuff. They wanna hear they they wanna know
that this is hard because it is hard,
not because they're screwing it up. And I
think sometimes

(01:16:33):
we don't speak to how big and ugly
this thing is. So I so appreciate you
coming on. This is awesome. Thank you. Yeah.
It was nice to talk with you.
Thanks for listening to this episode. If you
are a high achiever with a sex addiction
and you're looking for a recovery group full
of like minded men, visit successfuladdict.com.
We provide men with a recovery mastermind group
using four day retreats, weekly group calls, and

(01:16:54):
daily accountability check ins. If you wanna achieve
long term sobriety and save your marriage, go
to our website and fill out our application.
If you enjoyed this episode, please pass it
along to a friend in recovery who would
benefit from listening. It is my mission to
get this information out to as many high
achievers as possible, and I can't do it
without your help.

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