Amy Taylor: "My Life Was Destroyed When I Said NO" - Surviving an Online Pimp Who Tried to Ruin Everything | #135 " - The Sex Reimagined Podcast

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Leah (00:04):
Welcome back.
This is Leah Piper, your tanhaexpert, and I'm here with Dr.
Willow Brown, your DAOs expertat the Sex Reimagined Podcast.

Willow (00:11):
Yes.
And today we are interviewing areally special guest, Amy
Taylor, who was in the sexualityindustry as a sex worker, as an
escort for many years, and sheis quite a story to share with
you.
she also became a commerciallylicensed pilot in that interim
and got into not only molecularbiology, but also, uh, oil.

(00:38):
So she's

Leah (00:38):
was in the oil business.
She was in the real estatebusiness.
She the excort business.
She was

Willow (00:43):
modeling buisness.
Gonna love this woman.
Yeah.
She's fascinating.

Leah (00:45):
Very accomplished.
And, uh, she has some wildstories to tell about her
adventures.
Misadventures I would probably,say So please

Willow (00:55):
Tune in, turn on and fall in love.
with Amy Taylor.

Announcer (00:59):
Welcome to the Sex Reimagined Podcast, where sex is
shame-free and pleasure forward.
Let's get into the show.

Leah (01:09):
Amy Taylor, welcome to the show.

Willow (01:11):
We're so excited to have you and to dive into so many
amazing juicy topics that wehave not talked about yet on
this Sex Reimagined podcast.

Amy (01:20):
It nice to see you guys.
How you doing?

Leah (01:23):
Good.
You know, one of the things Iknow you're passionate about and
do a lot of work around advocacywork around is sex work and the
legal ramifications, the socialramifications, the judgment, the
purity culture, and then youknow, the, the freedom that we
should have with our bodies andthe choices and the things that

(01:44):
actually serve our culture, thatsex work Participates in and
contributes with.
So let's just like dive in.
How did you get started with,uh, your advocacy?

Amy (01:53):
Yeah, so thank you for saying that.
And I'm not faulting anybodywho's lived experiences
different than my own, much likeany other massive multi-billion
dollar industry, it is not amonolith.
And I understand that.
I lived at the very privilegedend of things.
There is much, I don't know.
Um, but it is my belief that thebodily autonomy issue is a major

(02:16):
one.
I don't think the state shouldown our bodies.
I just don't.
Or a church or any other entity.
I think autonomy is a, is areally big deal.
You give that up, you, it's aslippery slope.
And I also believe that youcannot be driven by a desire to
spite, punish, and criminalizeyour way out of things that are
full of problems.
That's never worked.
Anytime we've tried that inhuman history.

(02:37):
I think when you lead withkindness, compassion, and love,
you can actually do better tominimize things that are
problematic.
Uh, but it takes some, uh,better logic.
The instinct is sort of thisbase animal instinct to spite
and punish your way out ofthings, and, and that usually
fails even if in the moment itfeels good to those in power.

(03:00):
Um, it doesn't work.
So, and I've seen thatfirsthand.
I, I have, uh, two decades ofexperience on and off part-time
in sex work.
I've been a high-end companion.
How did that start for me?
Poverty, um, high sort ofhigh-end poverty.
So the two things can be true at

Willow (03:15):
Highend poverty.
Wow.

Amy (03:17):
know two things.
You can be classy and broke.

Willow (03:22):
Okay.

Amy (03:23):
So I'm a professor's kid.
My family had lots of class, youknow, spoke languages, would go
to Paris.
But we'd go to Paris and stay ina relative's house in the 18th
mall, which is like the hood.
So we weren't going to the FourSeasons, George sank, right?
We weren't, you know, we wereflying with like four
connections to go see mygrandmother, who, you know,

(03:44):
couldn't get citizenship in theUS.
So you can seem, you know, wehad a lot of class, but no cash.
We stayed in Holiday Inns, weweren't.
And so I did.
I went to Berkeley undergradbecause I was a smart, nerdy
kid.
They gave me money to go there,but my, I, I studied molecular
biology.
I get out, I work in biotech atthis place in Marin County,
California, north of the GoldenGate Bridge.

(04:05):
I was spending money to workthere, trying to live in the Bay
Area.
So I, the two, like I say, fancypoverty.
Everyone was like, Ooh, you're ascientist.
Yes, I was.
It was true.
I was a bench researcher, justthe bachelor's degree level, and
I was making negative money andI was not living like I do now
as an older lady in my forties,I was living in a studio in

(04:26):
Oakland and I still couldn'tafford groceries.
I couldn't afford the gas in mycar, and I did have the, the
fancy job they tell you to get.
I got a STEM degree with honors,so, I had a rich boyfriend, a
doctor, he paid for all of ourtrips and stuff that benefited
him, but he actually wouldn'teven pay for like the clothes.
He'd be like, let's go to Tahitifor a week.

(04:46):
Yeah, sure.
Yes.
Great.
I, I like that.
Duh.
And I loved him, but then I waslike trying to keep up with him
and even just paying for aweek's worth of bikinis.
I didn't have it, you know, youdon't have it when you're 21.
Uh.
In my sorority house, I movedinto a sorority.
Actually it was cheaper than theapartments at Berkeley, so I

(05:07):
didn't, people think sororitiesare always sort of fancy rich
girls.
We were not.
I was not, uh, it was actuallyless expensive'cause you're
living in a room with threegirls and, you know, sharing
everything.
So, uh, again, fancy poverty.
It looks like, like, don'tbelieve everything you look
about people, right?
They, that bag might be aknockoff that, that you don't
know.

(05:28):
Uh, and I'm sure.

Leah (05:29):
up, like my parents pretended to be middle class, It
was like we, we were pretendingwhile they were fighting around
having enough money for thegroceries, you know, it was sort
of like, I can really relate towhat you're saying.
So how did.

Amy (05:45):
Well, and no one wants to seem like trash because there's
so many, so there's so muchsocial shit and.
And, and, and benefit inpretending to have a little
class.
Right.
I do speak French.
That has made me a lot of money.
Um, I, I know which fork to use,but it's not like we, we never
even were allowed to ordersteak.
I knew what we could afford andcouldn't, but I know how to cut

(06:06):
and if I have to, so Right.
You, no one pretends to be lowerthan they are on the social
scale because of the cost ofbehaving that way.
I, I, or, or maybe it

Leah (06:17):
that give you a leg up when you became, uh, a
companion, quote-on-quote.

Amy (06:21):
Yeah, of course.
Of course it did, because Iseemed present more presentable
than I was.
I speak this way because I'm aprofessor's kid.
My dad speaks six languages.
Like I said, we never had anymoney, but he had a lot of
class.
He's a smart dude and he is aclassy guy, but he was a refugee
from, my dad was born inBudapest in 1941.
Bad place to be a Jew.
Uh, Nazis on one side, Sovietson the other.

(06:41):
So he was a refugee.
Uh, the Parisians took a lot ofthem in, but never gave them
citizenship.
He was undocumented and treatedlike shit accordingly, just like
we do now to the mostly Latinoones.
He was part of the wave ofEastern European ones in the
forties, fifties and sixties.
He was allowed to come toAmerica, uh, because he was a
science person and we wanted hisskills.

(07:02):
But he was, again, not givenpapers till he married my
mother.
And my mother was an Air Forcebrat.
Again, social clout, right?
But no, not no money.
So I go to Berkeley, I hear fromthis sorority sister who she was
a CAL cheerleader.
She's gorgeous.
Like the perfect look, you know,blonde thin, what, what really
sells.
And, uh, her parents gotdivorced and her dad was really

(07:22):
fucking her mom over in the, inthe fight.
And she had to move out of oursorority house.
She couldn't afford even to livethere.
Then we both were there onesummer, I was taking a summer
class to like knock down someunits to save money and be in
college less long.
Right.
And working some part-time.
Uh, I worked at a clothingstore.
It sucked.
Uh, and uh, she stayed there onesummer and she got a car, not a,

(07:45):
not a great one, but I was like,oh, is your dad like being
better to you guys now?
And she confessed that she wasworking as a high-end escort.
And I was like, dude, what'sthat?
Tells me, she goes across thegold, the Bay Bridge and goes
out to dinner with some technerd with a lot of money and
comes home with a few thousanddollars.
And I was like, wait, like I'mdoing that with this doctor I've
dated and I'm spending money onthe dress that he'll pay for

(08:07):
dinner, but he won't pay for mydress and I'm going broke here.
Like you could get paid to dothat.
And she laughed and said,sometimes there's physical
stuff.
Most of the time there isn't.
Um, they were all very nice,just kind of nerdy and rich and
busy and bored.
Uh.
So my first impression of it wasprobably overly positive.
Right?
I thought that's what all of itwas like, is like, dude, you're

(08:29):
just, and you, and she was like,yeah, they're, they're not gonna
commit to you.
They're not gonna marry you.
I was like, dude, fine with me.
I don't wanna do that.
I wanna go to graduate schooland live my life.
I

Leah (08:38):
How old were

Willow (08:39):
Yeah, I was just gonna say, what, what year

Amy (08:41):
was 19, she was 20, she was one year ahead of me.
Maybe I was 20 and she was 21.
I, I started college a yearearly at 17.
It was my sophomore summer, so Iwould've been 19, almost 20.

Leah (08:53):
Okay.

Willow (08:54):
Mm-hmm.

Amy (08:55):
So I filed that away in the back of my head, right?
Oh my God, I didn't know you.
I didn't know this was a thing.
And you know, pretty young girl.

Willow (09:01):
a clothing store.
Huh?

Amy (09:02):
Well, and again, didn't need to do it'cause I had the
rich boyfriend, but as that fellapart and, uh, I worked in
biotech after college, as I toldyou.
Was pretty mediocre at hated, itwasn't making enough money.
He was eyeballing me as like,I'm gonna marry you and we, I
wanna have kids soon.
'cause he was 10 years older.
I was gonna move to this smalltown inland of the Bay Area and

(09:24):
be a doctor's wife and it, itwould've been perfect.
And that's what women did forall of history.
Right?

Willow (09:29):
Right.

Amy (09:30):
I didn't wanna, I wanted,

Willow (09:31):
all secured and locked in and locked down.

Amy (09:34):
and I was.

Leah (09:34):
didn't

Willow (09:35):
another path was calling you?
Yeah.

Amy (09:38):
don't know.
I'm sure many people think I'man idiot.
And, you know, he did just finewithout old Amy.
He married, he had kids.
He's fine, he's fine.
Uh, he replaced me real quick,but I, uh, wanted other things.
I wanted to live in a big city.
I wanted to, uh, I had gotteninto LA undergrad, but they
didn't give me as much of ascholarship, so I didn't go.
I really wanted to live in laPalm trees, sunshine, pretty

(09:59):
people.
It was, it was about 500 milesaway.
You go down sometimes toDisneyland as a, I want a lot of
people

Leah (10:05):
Did you go?

Amy (10:07):
I did, I went and got my MBAI, I totally pivoted.
I was like, I need other skills.
'cause all I'm trained to do isbiotech.
I hate it and it doesn't paywell enough, and I don't wanna
go get a PhD in it and follow myfather's track.
I wanna, so I do an MBA, uh, wedon't make it.
He and I, we're gonna, I wasgonna go two years and then come
back and we'd get married and webreak up.

(10:27):
He sleeps with somebody else.
Honestly, that was my ticketout.
Uh, it was like, oh, youcheated.
Sorry.
Bye.

Willow (10:33):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.

Amy (10:35):
I was sad at the moment.
I did love him, but the problemwas he yanked the financial rug
out from underneath me when webroke up because he was the one
funding my MBA that he, that hereluctantly agreed that I should
get.
He didn't really want me to doanything.

Willow (10:48):
He didn't want you empowered.

Amy (10:50):
I mean, not really, but

Leah (10:52):
a wife and he wanted a mother, so

Amy (10:54):
did get

Leah (10:55):
what I mean.
There's nothing wrong with hisdesire, I don't think he wanted
her disempowered.
That doesn't sound like he wastrying to keep you down.
He was just clear about what hewas after.

Amy (11:03):
And honestly me having an MBA, there would've been
nepotism.
He worked in academic medicine,he would've made sure I got a
job.
And the MBA probably would'vehelped.
I could have gone into thebusiness of science or writing
or something else besides beingat the bench, lonely killing
mice all day, which is what Iwas doing.
I was, I was a real mousemurderer.
And it, and you know, it's gottabe done.
We all take medicine.
But it was hard on my soul,honestly.
It was really hard to kill somany animals all the time.

(11:25):
And.

Leah (11:26):
you, you get to LA and then how do you actually bridge
into escort work?

Amy (11:30):
We break up.
I've got, he takes back my car.
I'm in LA with negative income,right?
Not only no income, but giant,giant bills Uh, and I was like,
oh yeah, that thing Lisa told meabout.

Leah (11:42):
How did you actually start getting clients?

Amy (11:43):
I looked around on the internet, 2002.
So, uh, yeah, it was nosmartphones yet, but, but Web
2.0 was burgeoning.
It was no longer like dial upand all.
It was better than that.
Um, and I called a coupleagencies.
They wouldn't hire me.
They only hired like actressesand models.
Um, but one told me, she's like,you're clearly a romantic

(12:04):
extrovert.
You like dating.
It's all true.
I do.
And uh, you're

Leah (12:08):
Did you like sex

Amy (12:09):
Sure.
Of course.

Leah (12:10):
At this age?
Okay.

Amy (12:11):
Yeah, and I had only had sex with this guy ever.
That's the first interview

Willow (12:14):
he

Leah (12:15):
Oh wow.
Okay.
Not totally experienced.

Amy (12:18):
very much ready to some other people, and boy did I, I,
I fucked many more than Ithought I would, but I'm
honestly not.
Sorry.
It was fun.
I had a great

Leah (12:26):
totally.

Amy (12:28):
Everything.
I never, I had a sorority sisterwho was super hot and I didn't
fuck her when I had the chance.
And I wanted to do all thesethings.
I wanted to go to gang bangs andorgies and all things people do
in their twenties and thirtiesand forties and still, and I
did.
And I, I just wanted freedom anda full expression of a human
life, including my sexuality.
And I didn't really wantcommitment.
I was kind of broken heartedover the guy, so I was like, oh,

(12:51):
freedom, a little income.
I get to spread my wingsexually.
Sounds like a win.
And she told me, you can do thison your own.
You don't need an agency.
You're pretty smart chick.
And honestly, it ain't rocketscience to set up shop and hang
out your shingle.
It's just a small one personinternet business.
You get some photos and an ad,and an email and a phone.
It's, it's not exactly, youknow,

Leah (13:11):
It's not that hard.

Amy (13:12):
company.
So, um, it's just, it'sliterally just dating.
You set up a profile, it'sexactly like dating except you
marriage and, and the guys arericher and help you out and they
can leave anytime they want, butfrankly they do anyway even if
they're not paying you.
So, um.
And so it was fun.
I promptly met a billionaire whoI saw for over a decade.

(13:35):
I met a Hollywood agent who tookme all over the world.
I had a great time.
Uh, and yes, I had a lot of s*xwith a lot of people and I had
fun.
I went to very fancy celebrityladen swinger parties, not like
abusive stuff like P Diddy.
Like it was totally fun.
And, uh, and it was great.
It was, I finished my degree, Igot a job in oil.
I learned to fly planes, which Istill do.

(13:57):
Um, I've been able to befinancially independent and even
help support my family.
The, and I've learned a lot, wecan talk about it, but sex work
has a lot to teach the, theshame ridden world about sexual
satisfaction and consent andbecause the, the freedom of

(14:17):
these Yes.
Transactional relationships.
Yes, there's a powerdifferential, but there often
is, anyway, in relationships forlots of reasons.
And ours, they empower sort ofself-expression because people
are kind of like, fuck it, we'renot gonna really have a real
relationship anyway, so may aswell be honest and in a twisted

(14:37):
way.

Willow (14:38):
of like more clear parameters and, and, um, you
know, roles.
Yeah.

Amy (14:44):
Because you're not gonna like go get married and run away
and have kids.
And if you don't like eachother, you can both replace each
other.
And the weird good, the weirdupside of that is that you can
be more honest, which is funnyand actually works out discovery
and exploration.
I've met a lot of people whodidn't wanna die, having only
done missionary in the dark, youknow?

Leah (15:05):
was the downside of it for

Willow (15:07):
yeah, I'm cur And I'm also curious, like if you had
other, um, relationships duringthat time, like more personal
relationships as well.

Amy (15:15):
Yeah.
And they ended up a shit showevery time.
Perhaps po possibly some of thatwas me not, not really wanting
to leave sex work.
When you're one foot in and onefoot out, you get nowhere in
life, right?
'cause you don't, you don't headin one direction with your full
chest.
I look back, I dunno, it's hardto know what you were feeling at
the time and retroactively youkind of rewrite history, so I

(15:38):
don't know.
But yes, I fell in love with aneighbor who was a baseball
player'cause he was so fuckinghot and I'm a human being and he
did know, he knew what I did.
I didn't lie to him.
We, we thought we'd try to workit out and I would ease out and
we'd be normal.
Yeah, I totally failed and he'sfine now.
He lives in the PacificNorthwest and he's fine and

Leah (15:59):
and are you fine?

Amy (16:01):
It's a long time ago now, in another life I would've
married him and given it a go.
And we tried and it was tragic.
We, we got pregnant, we had amiscarriage because I had a
really traumatic stalker.
So the bad things, the bad sideof s*x work, uh, I had a p*mp
who wanted to make money off me.
I refused.
I told him to go to hell.
He tried to murder me.
That's what that does happen inthis world.
I was very naive.

Willow (16:22):
side.
Yeah.

Amy (16:23):
I was very naive not to think that people like that
existed because I didn't comefrom the streets and I thought
that was just the stuff ofmovies.
Nope.
They do exist.
And, and my me and my dumb ass,big mouth, I told the p*mp to go
to hell, which was a bad idea.

Willow (16:38):
mm.

Amy (16:40):
Uh, and he became,

Leah (16:41):
with you?

Amy (16:42):
say again.

Leah (16:42):
Was he violent?
Like

Amy (16:44):
Well, I never actually him online.
No, I didn't know him.

Leah (16:47):
oh.
So explain this because this isa, I don't hear people talk
about having pimps in the escortworld, so I'd love to for you to
dive into that a little bit.

Amy (16:56):
so it's an online version of the street thing.
So he, uh, is a, still a partowner tangentially through a
Grand Cayman company calledTreehouse Park.
They all put it in shellsthrough Romania, you know, money
here and Bitcoin there.
Um, but it's called theeroticareview.com and his name
is David Allens.
He goes by David Nen now tryingto hide from his past.
Uh, and he wanted y all of us toopenly sell sex, which I first

(17:22):
of all refused to do'cause mostof the people don't want sex.
And when I did have sex, it wasnever because of money.
It was who I wanted to also.

Willow (17:29):
you wanted to.
Yeah.

Amy (17:30):
And that's the only way it's legal.
And he wanted you to like reduceit to sex acts for money, which
I found isn't what a lot ofpeople want.

Willow (17:37):
Mm-hmm.

Amy (17:38):
Where they do, it's fine, but that's not really the
business I was in, and I'm notsaying I'm better than anybody,
but it wasn't.
I was going to the skiing for aweek with people and it was not
the same thing.
But he wanted you to sell sex.
He wanted you to demand yourclients to join his site, write
reviews, which he would chargeother people to read.
He had a searchable database oflike men could plug in, I want

(18:01):
this sex act in this area codewith this color hair and this
height.
And boom, here's your results ofwho you can hire.
And actually, for a pimp, it'skind of genius.
He was a very good computercoder and he, he built this
searchable database of, of, uh,prostitutes, which, uh, and I
didn't wanna be part of that.

(18:21):
Um, not only is that illegal,which, you know, one wants to
avoid crimes.
Uh, so I didn't want to be soreductionist, I didn't want
people meeting me because of s*xfor money, because.
I don't see them as just awallet.
And I didn't want people who sawme as just a set of holes.

Leah (18:36):
Right.

Amy (18:37):
That's a fine business.
Go to the brothels.
Do you?
I didn't wanna be, so when Itold David Elms, I'm not gonna
be part of the erotic review,I'm not gonna tell my clients I
don't want anything to do withyou and your world and get fuck
off.
Um, he unfortunately lived nearme in Los Angeles.
That was bad luck.
Uh, and he became more and moreobsessed.

(18:57):
So what he did was he bought mybirth name, the, my, the name on
my passport and

Leah (19:01):
Oh, like the URL,

Amy (19:04):
Uh, yes.
And he built a copy of myamytaylor.com website and he
changed the text to out me, myaddress, my family,

Leah (19:11):
Wow.

Amy (19:12):
some very odd lies

Willow (19:13):
must have been hell to

Amy (19:14):
Yeah.
Ruined my life.
I lost my job.
I lost the baseball boyfriend.
I miscarried my unborn son at 17weeks, who I hope I.

Willow (19:20):
that must have been a fucked up time.
How old were you then?
Were you in your

Amy (19:24):
That was 2009.
So also the great recession washappening.
That was fun too.
We were all good.
It's a good time.

Leah (19:31):
crash.

Amy (19:31):
My family didn't speak to me for two years.
Um, I, there was no business tobe done either in oil that I had
been working in after my MBA orin escorting or modeling.
There was just nothing to do.
So I went to Arizona and I justflew every day.
I added my commercialmulti-engine and, and my
instructor and instructor multilicenses and I just flew.

(19:52):
'cause it was a way to.

Willow (19:53):
You got

Leah (19:54):
Your life is fascinating.
I'm sort of riveted about thesechapters.
Like you can really see, likethere was this chapter, there
was a, there was a Bay areachapter then, then there was the
LA chapter, and then there wasthe P*mp Gone Wrong chapter, and
then there was the Love Affairwith the baseball player
chapter, and now there's thepilot chapter in Arizona.

Amy (20:11):
Well, I had been flying for a hobby and it becomes a ludic.
I had made some money.
We took the oil company.
It was very small.
It was actually, uh, oil.
It was a technology and oilcompany.
We did some drilling, but mostlywe did some of the primitive
like wireless communication offthe, off getting the data to the
home base in Houston and la.
So anyway, we sold that, acompany bought it.

(20:32):
I didn't wanna move to Houstonand work for them, so I took
some stock, bought some realestate.
I made more money off that thanI ever did off of sex work.
Um, yeah, it was good timing.
Um, my boss did wanna date me,but he gave up after asking.
It was typical.
I've always worked in fieldsfull of men, uh, science and
then aviation, and then oil, andthen sex work.
I've, I think the male gaze hasbeen some kind of odd theme in

(20:54):
life.
I've benefited from it, and I'vealso suffered at the hands of
it.
I think

Leah (20:58):
have friendships with men been very easy for you versus
friendships with women?
Has it been pretty balanced?

Amy (21:03):
You know, it's funny, when I was young, men were, you know.
Always very predatory.
Uh, they just wanna fuck you.
It's biology and it's fine.
It makes people, we need thatdrive.
I don't hate the male sex drive.
And we're also, you're nevergonna get rid of it, so who
cares if you hate it?
Um, it's literally the mostimportant thing there is to make
other people.
So men are always gonna wannafuck fertile women that are
premenopausal and that isnormal.

(21:24):
Now I just turned 48, and likemy friendships with women are so
much better because women arenot as threatened.
And men now are sometimes likeon the street in Manhattan.
They're just nice to me and theypet my dog and nice.
And then they don't hit on me.

Leah (21:39):
Yeah.

Amy (21:40):
I most will do.
I'm good looking.
Some men like older women andI'm a good looking older woman.
I still got a great body

Leah (21:45):
Well, yeah.
You're gorgeous.
So I imagine you've been amagnet for, um, male attention
your whole life.

Amy (21:50):
Yeah, it's, it's less now because about half of men or I'd
have to.
I'd have to think about thenumber, but there's a certain
percentage of men who just wantthem, want you younger.
And that's'cause they stillwanna make people and that's
totally cool.
Those men don't hit on me.
But there is a

Leah (22:05):
And young women are hot.
I mean, you look at their littlenubile bodies, it's, it's
understandable.
Yeah.
Better to celebrate it than toresent it.
That's sort of my attitude.

Amy (22:14):
I like it now.
I can't wait for my old bogwitch years and I'm gonna be
like in my seventies on theUpper East Side with a bunch of
tiny dogs and old lady friendsand I'm just gonna go full bog
witch and it's gonna be red.
I

Leah (22:23):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I kind of think that like sexis wasted on the youth as
compared to who I am in my laterforties, where I've, I'm more
interested in sex than I everwas in my twenties.
I'm more erotically inspired,um, than I was when I was
younger.
Uh, in my, I had so many morejudgements and confusion and um,

(22:46):
insecurities and body imagestuff.
It's really interesting to sortof watch the evolution of my own
sexuality as I get older, and Ioften think God, if only had
this when I was younger, Iwould've had a lot more fun when
I was younger.

Amy (23:01):
Well, I watched your stuff about your background and what
you've been through, and I'm,I'm so sorry for a lot of it.
I didn't, I grew up with theopposite.
No shame.
Uh, Euro, Euro Trash Liberal BayArea, California.
Um, and yet I think we allshould let ourselves have all
the chapters.
My old chap, my old lady chaptermight be quite chased because

(23:23):
I've done a lot of fucking, andit's

Leah (23:24):
Right.

Amy (23:26):
You, you have the right to check out the, I told you I've
met a lot of, like a lot, threeor four older men who lived in
the South Christianconservative.
They don't wanna die withoutexperiencing stuff, but they
can't be free to be honest,because they run businesses and
they deal with people in theirchurch.
If they tell the truth, they'llbe pariah.
I,

Leah (23:44):
Right.

Amy (23:45):
I don't fault them for lying.
I wish they didn't have to.
There's no good solution.
They've got kids to feed.
It is what it is.
Their lying does damage to us.
But on the other hand, theygotta survive too.
Right?
You can't, and I don't thinkthey could fix things in
Jackson, Mississippi by beinglike, I love whores.
I don't

Willow (24:03):
Yeah.
That's probably not

Leah (24:04):
Yeah, that's probably not the wisest, um, banner to hold
in those in that kind ofculture.
And I do have a lot ofcompassion for people who I see,
who feel like if they werereally true to their deepest
desires, it would blow up theirlife.
It would hurt the people thatthey very much care about.
And so they're in this conflictof like choosing some sort of

(24:28):
inner truth versus, you know,hurting their loved ones.
And, and it costing them notjust money, but money's on the
fucking table.
And.
c careers and relationships withtheir kids.
I mean, it could be a real mess.
And I, and I, I hope for a worldwhere we're not so divided, when
people can be more liberated in,in what is inside of them

Willow (24:50):
a lot.
I feel like a lot of people inour generation now too are just
opening up their, their like,they're not getting divorced,
but they're like, Hey, let'sjust not be non-monogamous.
Let's just open it up.
And some are even, you know, nottogether, but they're still
living in the same household andyou know, they're not gonna
unravel all that they've builttogether just because.

(25:11):
Um, they're not sexuallyattracted to each other anymore,
and they don't

Leah (25:14):
No, but they're still attracted to pair bonding,
right?
It's like there's still thisthing that we interweave with
people that goes, I don't wantthis to end.
And we're super siblings at thispoint, but we share so much,
especially bank accounts andfamily members.
Um, it's, it's interestingWillow that your more connected
to the people who are choosingnon-monogamy.

(25:37):
Right.
Which with a more consciousthing.
I'm encountering people,especially in my work, you know,
I've had a few recent, um,client students who are
confessing that they wish theywould've grown up in this
previous, in, in this newestgeneration where they could be
more open about the desire to bewith trans women.

(25:57):
Like they love the idea of thisfeminine breast, this person
that dresses up and feels like awoman, but still has a cock.
You know?
And, and it was reallyinteresting to have three
clients in a row confess this.
And I'm the, I'm the only personthey've ever told this to.
Like, I just find.
All of this so interesting, ourdeepest, darkest secrets around

(26:19):
what we really want sexually.
I imagine, Amy, that you wereprivy to a lot of secrets and
things that people only admittedto you.

Amy (26:28):
80% of clients I've known have wanted to have sex with a
transgender person.
One joked, he's like, it's likea threesome, but it's all in one
'cause I get the boot.
They're, very popular in sexwork.
Um, for a reason.
There's, they're, they're, Imean, you know, the third
gender, you go to Thailand orFiji or many cultures have

(26:48):
thought of them as like amagical thing.

Leah (26:50):
Totally.

Willow (26:51):
like

Amy (26:51):
whether they had surgery or just lived a certain way, like
we are not, we are ridiculousabout binary.
I guess Americans can only countto two.
It's red or blue Republican,Democrat, like, we can't count
to more than two.
It's so dumb.
It's so dumb.

Leah (27:04):
That's hilarious.
That's

Willow (27:06):
so when did you start doing advocacy work for sex
workers?
Tell us a little bit about yourjourney on that.

Amy (27:12):
Well, when I got outed and I had nothing, my family came
back after a couple years.
I lied to my family because Iwanted them to not have to deal
with it.
And it was better when theydidn't know.
I hated lying.
It was stressful for me, but itwas better for them.
They hate knowing.
They love me, but it's veryuncomfortable for them.
They, they're glad that I'm inthe sunset.
They worry about me.
My sister said, did you everthink that David Elms could have

(27:33):
hurt us to get to you?
And the truth is, I had notthought of that.
I had not.
Um, and so it's done damage tothem, but they love me in spite
of my choices, which is a graceI don't deserve and can't repay,
and I'm grateful.
So we are a very tight family.
He tried to destroy my familyand he failed.
Um, and so when I was outed.
It is what it is.

(27:53):
I lost job and banking and I'vecobbled together a life.
Banks are trying to be better tous, but they get harm.
They get attacked by thegovernment if they give us
banking.
So sometimes they kick us out.
But Wells Fargo has tried tofight for us.
They're San Francisco.
They've been, they've beencounterculture from the
beginning of the Gold Rush eraand

Leah (28:11):
That's good to know.

Willow (28:12):
Yeah.
Interesting.

Amy (28:13):
Chase has shut us down, be of, I mean, it's a nightmare for
us.
And housing, uh, I'm veryfortunate not to have to rent,
but I've been kicked out ofhousing.
Um, getting a job is hard.
Also, when people find out, theboss just tries to fuck you
'cause you're nothing but awhore to him forever.
Even if you've quit, even ifyou've had one client for a
decade.

Willow (28:33):
mm-hmm.

Amy (28:34):
Longer relationships than many marriages.
Um, uh, you, it's something thatyou never escape.
And so that's when I decided todo advocacy.
'Cause I was like, I've paid thePiper.
I'm gonna be branded with theScarlet Letter forever.
I might as well try to do somegood so that if I can, and I
don't know if I can, I thoughtthe idea was.

(28:55):
I've paid.
I'm out.
It sucks.
I wish I wasn't.
But if I can show that I'm ahuman, and you probably know
some, I mean, and you guys know,you know sex workers, but other
people think they've never metone.

Leah (29:06):
Right.
Yeah.
Yes, they have.

Amy (29:08):
They only think it's the person in the truck stop on
meth.
They don't know that thatchicken, their yoga class or at
Whole Foods.

Willow (29:14):
Right.

Amy (29:15):
And that most of them just do it for a while.
And they also do other things.
They're pilots, they work inoil.
They are, you know, I thoughtthe idea was, if you could see
me and hear me, it might makeyou think that you don't know
everything and it might not you,but people would question what
they think of us.
And, and I know tens ofthousands of sex workers, but

(29:39):
they won't talk to you'causethey're not out of the closet.
And.
That's good.
I hope they never get outed,

Leah (29:44):
Yeah.
There's good reasons to not be.

Amy (29:47):
Oh, I wish.
I wish I could still hide.

Leah (29:49):
now when you got outed and you had this traumatic
experience.
With, did you go back into sexwork or did you, did that stop
for you?
Did you,

Amy (29:59):
Yes.
So

Leah (30:00):
sounds like you got other

Amy (30:01):
happening.
There wasn't really my clients,everybody was broke.
We all our investments all wentdown and then they hobbled back
up and yeah, when the baseballguy, he had a corporate job.
He was retiring from baseballand getting into the corporate
world and we didn't make it.
The miscarriage was so hard onus.
He was scared of David Elms'cause the, he got letters in
the mail.
You know, your girlfriend's awhore and I'm gonna tell
everybody.

(30:21):
He got scared of losing his job,he and his parents finding out
what I had done.
And so we didn't make it.
And so yeah, I, uh, we broke up.
I'm once again lonely.
I'm now able to be a flightinstructor and fly cargo.
Two things I did at differenttimes to just build airtime.
Um, and yes, a couple clientsthat I had known at this point

(30:42):
for almost a decade were like,yeah, you want to go to Hawaii
or you wanna go to Europe andsee a soccer game and go to the
Christmas markets in Germany andhey, extra income, why not?
And these are people I've knownfor

Leah (30:53):
and they're friends now.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They're like,

Amy (30:56):
I was like, why would I not?
I'm just gonna stay home.
I've, I'm, everything sucks.
And so, yeah, it was just atthat point, dating, it wasn't
even at that point in my ageand, and savings and income, it
wasn't really about money, buthey, we all like money.
I like food and shelter.
So, so yes, I did.
I went back to it because Ireally didn't uh, have civilian,

(31:20):
and then once you're branded andall of Google knows, uh, it
turns out regular dating'spretty hard.

Willow (31:25):
Mm.
Mm-hmm.

Amy (31:26):
at what point do you tell a guy, Hey, guess what?

Willow (31:29):
Mm-hmm.

Amy (31:30):
So I think most, I know thousands of retired escorts
who've dated their clients.
Many are married, many havekids, some tried it and didn't
make it got divorced, just likeregular relationships.
Um, but I think, uh, it is kindof easier to date somebody who's
either been a client or isotherwise non-judgmental because

(31:50):
so much of the world will simplynot date somebody like me.
No matter how nice I am, theywon't date me.

Willow (31:55):
Mm-hmm.
And so now you're living in NewYork.
What are you up to these days?

Amy (32:01):
I do a lot of broadcasting and a lot of modeling.
There's tons of opportunities atFort New York.
I wanted to move here 20 yearsago when I first, you know,
these rich clients would eitherfly you here or meet you here
'cause everybody comes to NewYork.
Many of them had homes aroundhere or not.
Uh, and I fell in love with it along time ago, like everybody
does.
Um, in a different way than lapalm trees and sunshine that I

(32:21):
also had fallen in love with.
I wanted to experience livinghere, and I knew if I didn't do
it now, I never will because myparents are aging and I will
have to be back in California tohelp.
I can't leave it all to mysister, she'll kill me.
Um, and I can't just like fuckoff in New York and write
checks.
Right.
That's like the shitty siblingthing to do, which, you know,
it's kind of what I've beendoing.
My mom had surgery last year andI paid for things, but my sister

(32:43):
spent all the time and I, Ican't.
I can't just do that forever.
It's, it's awful.
So I will have to be inCalifornia, Northern California,
somewhere again within a fewyears.
Uh, if something happened to myparents tonight, I would plan
the move tomorrow.
Um, so I wanted, I didn't get tohave kids.
I didn't get to have a husband.
I got my reputation ruined.

(33:04):
Honestly, not sorry for any ofit, but I was going to treat
myself to the experience ofbeing a New Yorker for a few
years.

Willow (33:09):
Nice.

Amy (33:10):
It is every bit as fun as I thought it would

Willow (33:12):
Yeah.
That's great.
And

Leah (33:15):
what do you want now?
Sorry, Willow.

Willow (33:17):
Yeah.
Where are you headed next?

Amy (33:19):
still, I want my health to hold up.
I've, I've got the beginnings ofsome electrical heart problems,
so I'll probably not be able topass my class one for aviation,

Willow (33:27):
Hmm.

Amy (33:28):
at which point I'll have to just do class two or three and
fly for fun, not for pay.
Um, so that's coming, buthopefully not this year.
Uh, EKGs, you know, I got adoctor who he, I take a little
half a propranolol and drink nocoffee and he can still print
out a few pages of decent EKG topass me for another six months.
Um, so as long as my healthholds up, I'll fly.
I'm adding my rotorcraft rating.

(33:48):
I'm learning to fly helicopters,which is way harder than fixed
wing.
Uh, the airspace in Manhattan isas insane as the roads and the
ground.
Um, oh my god, it's so crowdedand they're so quick here
compared to Californians.
New Yorkers do not mess around.
And I sort of love it.
I, I wish I had moved here along time ago.

(34:09):
I wish

Willow (34:09):
uh, uh.

Amy (34:10):
Um, I, I winter elsewhere because the weather sucks in
January, February, uh, and Iwill just continue to be a dog
mom and healthy.
And I work out and I'm a greatneighbor and I'm a cliche aunt
to my niece and nephew.
Um,

Leah (34:25):
what about love and romance for you of these in this
chapter?

Amy (34:29):
you know.
I date a little, it's not goingwell.
Um, but I think there's a lot offorms of love.
I don't think love just means aman that you live with.
You know, my grandmother, mydad's mom was a relatively
famous photographer.
She did war photography andphotojournalism and animal
rights photography.
She was aggressively vegetarianand her work is archived in one

(34:51):
of the national museums in acountry in Europe for our
family.
'Cause they can keep ittemperature controlled.
It was film back in those days.
It wasn't digital.
Uh, she, she lived to be 104.
She just died a couple yearsago.
She never married anybody.
My dad was the product of aboyfriend, so were his twin
sisters.
It was a long relationship, butI always liked her life.
She had more friends thananybody.

(35:13):
She had projects until she waslike 101.

Leah (35:17):
Wow.

Amy (35:18):
had fame and a little money, and.
She wasn't gay.
She liked men, but it just, shedidn't center them.
She, it was like one more partof her life if it was convenient
or not.
And I love men.
I've enjoyed them.
I still do, but I don't, when Iget up in the morning, my dreams
and goals, the first on the listis not, you know, find me a man.

Leah (35:42):
Right.

Willow (35:43):
Mm-hmm.

Amy (35:43):
And, and that's probably 'cause they're from, this is so
arrogant.
I'm sorry, but they're likeflies.
They're everywhere.
If I want.
I just go outside and have apulse.

Leah (35:53):
Yeah.

Amy (35:54):
I've gone outside and baggy clothes and no makeup in a, in a
winter beanie, and I still gethit on.
So like,

Willow (35:59):
Mm-hmm.

Amy (36:00):
don't chase air either, you know

Leah (36:04):
So with our, with your advocacy work, I'm curious like
where, because there's a lot ofrange, right?
Politically, there's a lot ofthings that need to change.
Where are you focused on?
What are you passionate about,around what you're like fighting
for, or, or

Amy (36:18):
Yeah, so, um, I'm a little too mercurial.
I'm an entertainer, right?
I'm a clown.
So my sister's in politics andthere's some good legislators in
Cal in very progressiveCalifornia.
It's always been the mostcompassionate state, and it has
the muscle power.
It's the, you know, it's abigger economy than India.
So California will be the placethat will drag, if it's
possible, it will drag, uh, thiscountry into the, a kinder

(36:41):
future towards sex work.
If that's, if that's everpossible, that's the only place
they're really seriously talkingabout it and have the muscle to
get it done.
So she's in politics there.
She stands up for us bravely.
She's gotten some, some shitabout it, but.
Um, and there's some, somelegislators in the Bay Area, one
guy in San Jose in particular,who's, who's writing some bills
that, you know, will get lookedat and it's a slog.

(37:03):
Um, I don't think it's gonnahappen anytime soon, but the, we
have models of countries andplaces.
New Zealand, Belgium just gavethem maternal leave and in New
Zealand, they can sue theircustomers if they don't get
paid.
And meanwhile here, they die ina ditch and nobody cares.
Right.
So we know it can be done better'cause we have places it is.
So it's not some mystery.

(37:23):
It's like gun violence or healthinsurance.
We, healthcare, we, we know wecan do better.
It's the willingness to dobetter.
And the problem, of course, islegislators are horrified by
anybody who stands up and saysthat sex workers should be given
legal status and, and rights andrespect as the ca as is the case
in other work.
No one's willing to stick theirneck out first, but I liken it

(37:46):
to the battle that, uh,L-G-B-T-Q people had that
everyone was too chicken shit tosay that gay people were just
like us and just wanted love andrights and power of attorney
when their spouse is in thehospital and all the other
things.
And then once you reach atipping point and it becomes
more shameful to be an asshole,then everyone, the tide swings

(38:07):
the other way.
So the goal here is to humanize,the goal here is to be brave to
not be shut up.
And there's, there's a lot ofwomen, um.
There's a woman named Caitlinwho has an off-Broadway show.
There's Mrs.
Matisse in Seattle.
There's Kristen D'Angelo who wona Can Film Festival award for
the movie American Courtesans.
There's Maggie McNeil.
The, um, she's a beast fightingfor our rights.

(38:32):
Um, and, uh, if we, it's, it'sthe tipping point.
It has to become more shamefulto, to believe that s*x workers
are throwaway people who deserveeverything.
Awful.
Than to believe they haverights.
And once you change the culture,then you can change the laws.
I think it is getting harder forpeople to simply say that we're

(38:52):
subhuman.
I get EI get hundreds of emailsevery week for people who've
watched my stuff and been like,wow, you know, I still maybe
don't like what you do, butyou're a human being.
I'm like, yeah, I'm, hello.
Um, so I'm not a legislator.
I don't have that kind of power.
I wish I'd gone to law school.
Uh, we do have, Kate Aamo is agreat lobbyist that fights for

(39:14):
us.
We're of course not allowed tounionize because we're not a
legitimized industry.
Um, but that would be great ifwe could form a union, have dues
hire.
Spend more on lobbying.

Leah (39:23):
Mm-hmm.

Amy (39:24):
Um, but we're doing it in

Willow (39:25):
of organization, you know,

Amy (39:27):
SWAP is amazing.
They have chapters everywhere.
That's sort of the best We

Willow (39:31):
Say it again.

Amy (39:32):
uh, sorry, SWOP, sex Workers Outreach Project.
Um, and there's chapters inevery city.
You can, folks, if you'rewatching this, you can Google
swap it's swap.org or swapusa.org.
Just google it.
You'll find the one near you.
Uh, they do great work.
Swap behind bars helps womenwho've been incarcerated.
Um, and then there's a lot ofmessy, informal ways.

(39:53):
Like when my stalker came afterme, the Phoenix Police
Department helped me evenknowing they didn't love what I
did, but they didn't think Ishould be killed.
And, and I got a stern lecturefrom them, but they saved my
life.
So, but I've also been arrestedand the cops in Orange County,
California messed up my life andgave me a criminal record that
has prevented me from gethousing, getting housing and
jobs for the rest of my life.

(40:14):
So it's messy, like all things.

Leah (40:17):
that?

Amy (40:18):
Yeah, that was my third client.
He was a cop.

Leah (40:21):
okay.

Amy (40:22):
Yeah, I was do green.
Uh, he was really nice.
He said he owned a scuba divingshop in Huntington Beach,
California.
And that wasn't true.
Uh, and he was super nice.
We had a great time until wedidn't and he was so gross.
Tom Giffen, Hey, fuck you, Tom.

Leah (40:37):
fuck you,

Willow (40:38):
How, how did you

Amy (40:39):
Tom's in consulting now with his nice cushy retirement.
And look, I don't even think hebelieved in what he was doing
because.
Uh, as they're arresting me andtelling me I'm in grad school.
Right.
And they didn't believe I wasuntil they found out, oh shit,
she's really a grad student andthey offered me like a minimum
wage cleaning job to rescue mefrom sex work.
Yeah.

Leah (40:57):
Oh,

Willow (40:57):
Oh, my God.

Amy (40:58):
Not gonna help me.

Willow (40:59):
now how did he, how did he find you?
Like how did you guys meet?

Amy (41:03):
uh, you know, he answered my ad and we talked twice on the
phone and planned a date and wehad a lovely evening un until
they busted through the door andthrew me on the floor and
handcuffed me in my underpantsand, yeah.

Leah (41:12):
So it was a sting operation.

Amy (41:14):
Oh yeah, he was really cute.
I was very much ready to have anice date and maybe, maybe
physical stuff.
I'm horny, I'm human, and he wasnice.
And yes, if he helped me outwith grad school, that would be
nice.
Um, uh, he wanted me to date hisrich brother in Newport Beach.
After that, he's like, wastrying to.

Willow (41:31):
the arrest.

Amy (41:33):
Yeah, I don't even know if that was a real person or if he
was still lying'cause he wassuch a liar.
But if there was a rich brother,I was like, you're trying to
pimp me to your brother.
Like what?
No thank you sir.
He was a full psycho and he wasvery good.
He arrested a lot of mycolleagues'cause he was, that
dude should have gone toHollywood and acted'cause he was
a full socio, like a fuckingsociopath, which is why he was

(41:55):
so good at his job.
Um, he was a, he was a betteractor than most I've seen on
film.

Leah (42:00):
Now are you seeing, um, police target sex workers still
today?
My understanding is that they'rereally only targeting you if
they get a complaint.
Um, they're less looking for sexworkers, more looking for Johns.
What's, what's yourunderstanding

Amy (42:16):
mean, I think, I think it's like a speeding ticket.
If you're speeding on thefreeway and they get you, it's
really not that personal.
You're just the one they got.
It's stochastic.
It's just luck draw.
Now, you know, we're patternseeking humans with our brains.
We always like to look forpatterns.
I've, I've known older women,younger women, arrested, high
end, low end.
I don't see in my over 20 yearsof experience I haven't seen,

(42:37):
but I'm not privy to if therewere, I don't think there were
complaints about me.
I was brand new and the onlyreason they got me was I was too
dumb to know how to screen.
And frankly, the upside was ittaught me a painful lesson.
It taught me that people canlie.
I didn't know that people wouldgive you a fake name and a fake
job because I would've never,like, I mean, I, I came from a

(42:58):
world in which when somebodytold you who they were, that's
who they were.
So, um, very naive, right?
Uh, but it did teach me thatpeople lie.
And that probably saved my lifelater, right?
Because forever after that, Idid not trust, which was a tough
lesson to learn,

Leah (43:12):
Mm-hmm.

Amy (43:12):
to not trust people.
I think we all learn that at, insome way.
As we age, we get a littlebruised and battered by life.
And, uh, and I think they'rejust doing their job.
They're tasked with a mandate,um, to, to, and it doesn't work.
It doesn't get rid of sex work.
In fact, you catch an expensivecase and now you need another 25
grand.
So the last thing you do isquit, Right.

(43:35):
Is now you need all this money.
Um, I borrowed it from a clientand I did pay him back because
it was important to me to payhim back.
And I, you know, it all gotdismissed and stuff.
He did some things he shouldn'thave done physically, so.
No, but they expectedcontrition.
They expected to slut shame youas a woman and you'd show up in
court and that you'd, you know,be want to, I don't know, find

(43:58):
Jesus and be a virgin again orwhatever the fuck they

Willow (44:01):
just so wild to me, like how, how very not far we have.
You know how not far thisindustry has come since like the
1700 1800 hundreds you know, theCourtesans and in, um, did you
guys ever watch DangerousBeauty, the Courtesan situation
over in, uh, in Italy?
And just like how, you know, notthat not that much has really

(44:25):
shifted or changed.

Amy (44:26):
We don't like slutty women.
Uh, it.

Willow (44:30):
I feel like it's because of the power that, that a woman
has who's in her sexual power,who, who knows her Shakti, who
knows how to wield her sexualenergy.
It's just, it's so powerful.

Amy (44:43):
women think that you are giving away your power and that
you would have more power as awoman if we all held sex from
men and controlled them with it.
That's what the sort of.
Chased virginal.
Usually s women, they actuallythink we are get losing power.
Uh, I disagree, I disagree.
But they think the power is indenying men's sex and using it

(45:06):
as a, as a bargaining chip toget marriage.
And then you get, it's just sexwork too.
They get the marriage, they get.

Willow (45:13):
Transactional.

Leah (45:14):
very transactional.
It, it just depends on what you,it's like a, it's like where you
place the value

Willow (45:19):
Yeah.
You know.

Leah (45:20):
for centuries we place the value on this made up thing
called virginity.

Willow (45:24):
And before all of this sort of like patriarchy came to
power, sexuality was a, it wasthis, it was such a sacred
thing.
It was, it was a cleansingthing.
Like actually people would haveto go through sacred sexual
rights before they got marriedso that they could be cleansed
and purified

Leah (45:41):
Or so they could be good at it,

Willow (45:43):
Yeah, both

Leah (45:45):
you know, and they would come back from war and they
would have to visit the temple,the sexual temples, in order to
cleanse, to be fit for societyagain, because they just saw all
this combat.
I mean, can you imagine if wecould love our warriors sexually
back to wholeness so that theycould be, you know, safe again
in their own minds, in, in, inthe brutality that they faced.

(46:07):
I mean, sex is kind of

Willow (46:09):
Yeah.
Tell us a little bit about likethe healing that you have seen
happen with this work.
I.

Amy (46:16):
Almost all men's number one desire is for more physical
touch.
And I don't even mean justsexually.

Leah (46:22):
right?

Amy (46:23):
Most men don't get hugged and touched as much as women,
and that's because of toxicmasculinity.
It's changing.
But, um, I have had men crybecause I just scratched their
back gently.

Willow (46:36):
Mm-hmm.

Amy (46:36):
I have known, I mean, and they do this to themselves.
You know, because they benefitfrom being manly and stoic and
wildy, blah.
All the things we know.
Um, but yes, I have seen, I'vemet a lot of men whose wives
don't wanna fuck them.
Their wives gave him the goodstuff for a year and then got
the ring and I'm, you know, I'vehad wives call me and be like,
yeah, I faked it.

(46:57):
And I never, never even likedhim, but I got the right, the
house and the kids and I got himand now I'm gonna take half.
And I was like, you know, you'rejust a less honest sex worker,
honestly.
Uh.
I don't know why some peopledislike sex.
I've, I've talked to women whosay it's painful.
There's some stuff going on inmenopause with walls, thinning

(47:18):
and wetness issues.
HRT has been a godsend for a lotof aging women.
Not all aging women get thatsome aging women are hornier
than ever, and so I would arguethat some of that might be
psychological or just the varinatural variance in humans.
I don't think we know, we don'ttalk a lot about menopause.
I've met a lot of men whosewives I've hit the mid fifties,

(47:38):
late fifties, and they justwon't fuck them

Leah (47:41):
They're done.
They don't want anything to dowith sex anymore.

Amy (47:43):
I would argue a lot of times it's'cause the wife knows
her husband's a cheating fuckand she doesn't wanna fuck him
anymore'cause she's mad at himand, but then he cheats more
because he is like, I'm starvingfor sex.
So it's a, it's a problem.
Opening marriages.
Yeah.
Everyone in New York's a swingernow because they've realized
it's the only way they cansurvive for 60 years of
marriage.
And honestly, my girlfriendsalso wanna fuck other people
they love, they love theirhusband, but you know, same food

(48:05):
every night, all that.
Uh, or they don't.
I know one who she's real mad ather husband, she likes to date
other guys, but they got littlekids and they don't wanna
custody and all that nightmare.
Anyway, there's the reasons areas diverse as people themselves,
but yes, the healing.
Look, everyone has a sexual ego.
Women do too.
You know, ask any woman when shefeels like she's the, the

(48:27):
throat, eight or 3000 blowjobgoddess.
She feels kind of like a badass.
Like we all have sexual ego, thecompersion that is very normal
and it's not a bad thing.
So yes, when men think that theyare desired sexually, they get
real happy.
And that's

Leah (48:42):
Yeah.

Amy (48:43):
that's not something hate women do too.
And so,

Leah (48:46):
We all wanna feel desired.
Even if we don't desire to havesex, it still feels good when
someone desires to have sex withyou.

Amy (48:53):
for sure.
And so they don't get pursuedfor sex as much.
You know, some of that'smechanical clits on the outside.
The same thing that makes themcome isn't typically what makes,
you know, 95% of women come andthat's a design flaw.
I guess.
God has a six sense of humor forputting our junk on the outside.
And we know there's G-spot.
We know there's all theoutliers, but not most women.

(49:13):
It's the clit.
Right.
And.
Most women, the penis doesn't domuch for that.
So, you know, again, designflaw.
I don't know why it wasengineered this way.
I didn't, I didn't, I wasn't incharge.
So, um, this, I think a lot ofmen have this fantasy that.
Their cocks could be asdesirable as women's bodies tend

(49:35):
to be, especially if we're youngand pretty or whatever.
Um, and they don't really get tobe chased.
Like most men will tell you astory of like the two or three
times in life that they werereally pursued by a woman for
sex.
And they will remember thatforever and most women have
25,000 of those stories anddon't remember them.
Uh.

Leah (49:54):
isn't that interesting?

Amy (49:57):
A lot of men like sex work because it's the one time they
can get laid when they want to,when they're horny on demand
with what they want.
The brothel lineup thing or theinternet version of that where
they get on sites and kind of goshopping.
The illusion of choice, eventhough it's not really true,
other people have consent andthey can't just have everything
they're looking at.
Uh, they, and they still have tobe a nice, normal person.

(50:19):
You don't, you can't just, butthe illusion of choice is
something that not a lot of menever get to experience and
that's very seductive to them,to, it's why they like strip
clubs.
They go and it's like, oh, I canbe the one selecting for once in
my life.
Right.

Willow (50:33):
Mm.

Leah (50:34):
transactional part of it feels safer than having to be in
an emotional relationship.
That could be complicated, thatcould create more risk.
It's like, it's like it's alesser risk.
This type of shopping.

Amy (50:46):
The high

Leah (50:46):
shopping.

Amy (50:46):
they usually want the illusion of emotion.
They wanna think you really likethem for more than the money.
That probably is just theirdesire to alleviate guilt.
They don't wanna think like, shehates me, but she needed money
and so I'm, I'm an abuser that

Leah (51:00):
that, and I have to pay for sex, which means women won't
fuck me.
I have to pay for it.
Women won't fuck me without it.
So a lot of men are trying tomanipulate out of that dynamic.
There's like a subconsciousthing that doesn't like that
women won't fuck'em unless theypaid for it.
So

Amy (51:17):
work is work movement is that a lot of men don't want the
sex work.
They don't even like the termbecause that implies that they
are work, which is makes themfeel bad.
I would argue society shamingclients contributes to this.
If it was normal for people tosometimes pay for sex on demand,
which is a world most peoplecan't even imagine, even where
it's legal, it's stillstigmatized.

(51:38):
You're right.
They feel shame for paying forsex because that implies the
person doesn't really want them.
I don't know why I, I joked oncewith a client, I was like, I
could be mad that you, that if Ididn't look like this and I
didn't suck and fuck that,nobody would date me in civilian
dating either.
They all want sex on tin andmatched.
That's what they're there for.

Leah (51:57):
I just think people should have some kinky, like let's have
a kink around paying for sex,and then you can really get off
on it and really like there's somuch more positive impact when
you can just kink out on it.

Amy (52:08):
Just lead with what you have to offer.
I was never mad at the fact thatmen usually wanted to fuck me.
I could be mad about that and belike, oh, if I didn't fuck'em,
they wouldn't date me.
Yeah, that was probably true.
They probably wouldn't have,they'd go find one who would?
Right.
But you can be either mad aboutthat or you can lead with what
you have to give.
And I've known a lot of rich menwho are very happy to give women

(52:30):
money.
One of them once said, he'slike, I love knowing that you
have a safe apartment, you haveclothes you like, you can take
care of your dog.
He's like, and also my kink isthat it's a flex.
I can do more for you than otherguys can do.
So they can't have you.

Willow (52:45):
Ah, there you

Leah (52:46):
And it it, it inspires that protector provider instinct
that is also hardwired in thebiology.
So I've got, I've got one finalquestion.
It's possible Willow, it doestwo.
And this question is what advicewould you give someone who wants
to break into the sex workerspace, what would you, what

(53:06):
would you, with your experience,what would you, what advice do
you have?

Amy (53:10):
Honestly, I would tell them don't even if you survive it.
Uh, like I sort of have, I guesswe'll find, I guess we'll see
when it's totally over.
But in these sunset years, Icould say I've pretty much
survived it.
Un scathed for sure.
But hey, I would say don't getdigital skills.
Get a remote job.
Live all over the, it's easier.
Honestly, society makes this toohard.
Okay, that's it.
If you are hell bent on this, doa lot of research.

(53:33):
There's a million YouTubechannels, there's podcasts,
there's Instagrams.
You could try emailingsuccessful women to help you,
all the information's out there,there's books and shows, um, The
bad stuff is incredibly rare.
99% of it's just literally justdating.
It's actually pretty boring andfun.
And so you will spend a lot oftime preparing for something
that hopefully will neverhappen.
but for real, if you're hellbent on this, you know,

(53:55):
benchmark, those who are outthere, there's some great
Canadian escorts with YouTubechannels that teach you
everything.
'cause they can, they have legalrights to speak out.
But, um, but honestly, I wouldsay don't.

Leah (54:07):
Mm-hmm.
Okay.

Willow (54:09):
it.
Well, that's advice from AmyTaylor who has been through
quite a lot, has been throughpretty much all of it.

Amy (54:17):
not, it's not been boring.
It's not been boring.

Willow (54:20):
It's not been boring.
Yeah.

Amy (54:22):
And thanks for the work you guys do in the healing space.
Uh, I don't know where we're notqualified to or equipped to do
the extensive coaching andthings you guys do with, with
people's hearts on the inside,we're sort of just the
entertainment fund like a movie,and that's fine.
That's a fine thing to do, but Ilove the work you're doing with
people's hearts and souls.

(54:42):
That's really great work.

Willow (54:44):
mm Thank you.

Leah (54:45):
Amy.
Thank you so much for being onthe show and sharing your
experience and being so candidabout it.
We

Willow (54:51):
And so vulnerable.
Yeah, it's fantastic.
Super helpful.

Leah (54:56):
where can people find you?

Amy (54:57):
Yeah, I'm on www.AmyTaylor.com.
Um, out there, if you guys, someof it's just, just modeling
stuff if you wanna, or, butsometimes my, my ramblings and
thoughts, um, are out there.
So say hi.
If you guys feel like it.

Willow (55:09):
Love it.
Thanks, Amy.

Leah (55:12):
Yeah.
Okay.
Everybody stay tuned because thedish is up next.

Announcer (55:16):
Now our favorite part, the dish.

Leah (55:20):
Mm-hmm.

Willow (55:21):
Well, that was a fascinating conversation.
I mean, so what a, what a story,what a life, what a trajectory.
She went on and all in, all inthe name of like seeking
security, financial security,and, and safety, and quite a
rollercoaster with that.

Leah (55:38):
Yeah, she, her story's kind of like the nightmare
story.

Willow (55:42):
I know you, it's a rare, that's a rare

Leah (55:44):
Yeah, like that's the

Willow (55:46):
usually hear that

Leah (55:47):
Everything you, you would, that would totally scare you off
from touching this.

Willow (55:51):
industry.
Yeah.
Yeah,

Leah (55:53):
Yeah, like kind of the opposite of, you know, when we,
when I was sort of moving intowards what I would call the
sexual arts, um, you know, theseare things that would've stopped
me in my tracks.
You know, like the idea ofhaving a potential pimp could
destroy your life and smear yourname and threaten, I mean, that

(56:14):
guy was out to ruin her life andhe did for a while.
Like, that is fucked up.

Willow (56:19):
Hen never really even met her.

Leah (56:21):
Yeah, like I,

Willow (56:22):
Just picked her out of the crowd.

Leah (56:24):
I watched a documentary, I wonder if it's the same guy.
I watched a documentary about

Willow (56:28):
Well, the erotic

Leah (56:29):
that got murdered.
Yeah.

Willow (56:31):
big review site for For Tanika?

Leah (56:35):
Oh, really?
Okay then it's

Willow (56:36):
the erotic review is like a pretty, um, pretty well
known site where a lot ofpeople, whether they're doing
full body sensual massage, se,escort, tantra or whatever, are
they, they want reviews onthere.
People do, who are workingbecause they, um, because men go
and look at that

Leah (56:55):
Yeah, it's why I don't ever put myself on sites that,
um, are pursuing reviews.
Like, I think it was a red bookback in the day, uh, which was
really big in the Bay Area.
Like that's just gross to me.
Like, I don't want peopletalking about their sensual
experience with me.
It feels like such locker roomand the way that they talk about
is very locker room.
I don't know.
That always threatened me.

(57:16):
And, and so I never pursued thatkind of, uh, websites.

Willow (57:21):
Yeah, it's very interesting.

Leah (57:22):
like that.
And it sounds like she didn'tlike it either and, and

Willow (57:25):
She never even got got into it never was a part of it.
It just shut it down.
Yeah.

Leah (57:31):
I think it's tricky when you promise certain sex acts,
you know, but, and not to judgeanyone that has formulated their
business in such a way.
I mean, that that can work andI'm, it makes it very
transparent what someone canexpect.
I just find it puts a lot of, Iimagine it put a lot of pressure
on your own body.

Willow (57:50):
exactly.
Because you don't know untilyou're in the moment what you
wanna do or not do.
You know?
And we both know people who areprimarily Dakini's doing tantra
work, not having, you know,

Leah (58:03):
service.
Yeah.
I

Willow (58:04):
full service Yeah.
Who sometimes are with some, aclient who they, you know, who
they really are enjoying andthey do it because they want to,
in that case, not for anexchange of income.

Leah (58:17):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And oftentimes, so, so there'sdifferent, I mean, just for
those people who don't know, um,there are people in the sexual
arts.
I just like that.
Regardless of what you offer, Iput it all under that umbrella.
And there's some people,especially in I think the tantra
world where full service isless, um.

Willow (58:40):
Expected.

Leah (58:41):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's not something that isalways offered though.
Some people do offer it, andwhen I say full service, that
usually means, um, not justtouch and arousal with hands.
It might include mouths, itmight include penetration with,
you know, vaginal sex, anal sex,whatever the case may be.
Um, and that's a good fit forsome people who offer it.

(59:02):
Uh, most people don't.
In the tantra space would be my,is my estimate.

Willow (59:09):
And even in, in, in dominatrix and BDSM, most people
are not, they're more just likeplaying with sexual energy.
Playing with erotic edges andlevels in, in ways that are
shame free and judgment free.
There's a lot of, there's somuch, still so much repression

(59:30):
and so much taboo aroundsexuality that there's parts of
our psyche that don't ever get achance to see the sunshine.
And so in a controlledenvironment, a transactional
environment that has parameters,that has boundaries that both
people understand and know whatthe boundaries are, it's safer

(59:51):
to explore those edges of yourpsyche.
And that's the beautiful.
The beauty of it.
That's the, that's sort of thehealing and the, and the
becoming more whole withinyourself of it all.
And, um, it's a, it's atremendous service that people
are providing, not just women,but men as well.
There.
I, I, there's actually a, a malethat I wanna get on our show

(01:00:12):
pretty soon here, um, who doeswork with all genders and, um,
you know, is doing lots ofhealing work in the sexuality
world and just having so muchfun.
And I think, I think thatthere's like, you know, we all
grow up in this culture, in thissociety that like work has to be
hard, work has to be, you know,a lot of work.

(01:00:34):
And there's also jobs out there,careers out there, paths out
there that can be a lot of funand can be a lot of pleasure.
And this is one that can be thatand that, you know, and as you
know, if you're stepping intoit, it can, it can bring up a
lot of personal stuff as

Leah (01:00:50):
Yeah, it, it often does.
It's rare when it doesn't, youknow, you have to face, you
know, your own fears and shameand conditioning around what sex
work is to you.
And there's a lot of people whodon't like that word sex work.
You know?
They don't identify that eventhough they're working with
people's arousal and shiftingtheir systems with arousal.

(01:01:11):
And there are a lot of sexualityplaces that you can explore your
healing and your awakening inthe sexual realms that you can
do so without exposing yourselfto STIs.
I think that's one big concernthat people have is like, you
know, how do you keep your bodysafe and therefore keeping your
partner safe if you haverelationships outside of your

(01:01:34):
sex work.
Those are all things that haveto be confronted.
You know, I grew up thinkingthat prostitution was, you know,
people who were really sufferingand that was their only option.
And that's not, that's not true.
I don't think that's ever beentrue.
That's one section of sex work.
But there's a whole notherdepartment of sex work that, uh,
is completely different fromthat.

(01:01:55):
These are, um, mentally well,healthy people who are not
suffering.
Who feel very rewarded by theirwork in sexuality and working
with people's bodies andshifting people's systems.
That's what I think the realpower of sex work has for folks.
Whether that's BDSM, whetherthat's tantra, whether that's
even escort work.

(01:02:17):
Um, something deeper ishappening when we meet people,
uh, in our sexuality.
And, um, it's interesting.
I don't think that's true foreveryone, and I didn't really
get the sense that that was truefor Amy.
I sounded like with Amy, youknow, she really embraced the
entertainment aspect ofsexuality.
Um, it was interesting and makessense that it's like this is a,

(01:02:41):
this is like dating, but you getpaid for it.
And I think when you have theprivilege of beauty, which Amy
truly has, I mean, she, what ababe, you know, like, um, that's
someone who will do really well.
Someone who's not as physicallybeautiful, probably can't get
the same kind of dollars that Iimagine Amy was able to get

Willow (01:03:00):
I don't know if that's totally true, because I know
some people in the industry whoare not the typical gorgeous,
you know, with the eyes and thelips on the cute little nose,
you know?
Um, but they are doing reallywell.
So I do think there's, there'spersonality, there's skill
level.
Um, yeah, having, having goodlooks in a nice body should

Leah (01:03:22):
that's why I think going on the teacher track is a place
where when you don't feel asconfident about your sexual
attraction, whether that'sbecause you have issues with
your body image or you don'tthink you're as, as classically
beautiful, um, there's lots ofways to still engage and be very
rewarded in this work.
I think for me, I certainly feltthat way.

(01:03:43):
Um, I was always a littleinsecure about what people would
think they, if they, when theyopened, when I opened the door.
Um, and so there's ways that youcan use education.
Um.

Willow (01:03:52):
Isn't that funny y'all, that Leah thinks that people
would open the door and bedissatisfied with her
gorgeousness.

Leah (01:03:59):
Well, like I remember like I

Willow (01:04:01):
that we think about ourselves,

Leah (01:04:04):
yeah.

Willow (01:04:05):
as women, and this is such a, you know, this is such
a, um.
Oh, it's so deeply ingrained anddeeply embedded, you know, just,
and, and as we get older intoour forties and fifties and
sixties, it's like we're justhanging on to this, um, this
look and this youth.
And I think there's so muchbeauty in aging.
Like, let's actually allow theaging to unfold before us and

(01:04:29):
step into it with confidence.
And there's a wisdom, like whatyou were saying in the interview
Leah, about like you wish you'dknown then what you know now.
Like the knowledge, theexperience, the well seasoned
practitioner, there's a lot tobe said for that.

Leah (01:04:45):
Yeah, the embracing of one's own erotic nature because
you've discovered so much aboutit and then you, we have so much
more to explore.
So much more is on the table.
Um, and when you give yourselfpermission within your own
system, that's a mirror forpeople to give themselves their
own permission.
To sort of explore this part ofour humanity.

(01:05:05):
I mean, my God, when I thinkabout all the stress we endure
day to day, that we have thisbuilt in system in

Willow (01:05:13):
clear it all.

Leah (01:05:14):
Yeah.
To like really embrace theseopportunities to flood our
system with beautiful hormones

Willow (01:05:20):
Yes.
Bring

Leah (01:05:21):
that give us relief.

Willow (01:05:23):
Vitamin O, everybody.
Get some.

Leah (01:05:26):
So, so really, really, really interesting story.
I can't help but feel like someof it's very tragic.
You know, I felt sad when heradvice was Don't do it.

Willow (01:05:36):
Yeah.
It, it, it, yeah.
I mean, I'll be honest, it kindof hit me in a, in a, in a way,
you know, and um, and the, the,I think there's, so there's just
as many different experiences onthis path of professionalism as
there are on every other path of

Leah (01:05:56):
True.
They all have theircomplications.

Willow (01:05:59):
And everyone's gonna have a different experience.
And so I think the mostimportant thing is really like
stay true to your ownexperience.
What is it that is feeling likealignment and truth inside of
your system?
Moment to moment, be able todiscern that.
Be able to keep your finger onthe pulse of that and just
listen and you, and you won't goawry.

Leah (01:06:19):
also have community.
I mean, you know, we, there's somany do's and don'ts that, um, I
discovered and I'm so glad I hadmentors who I could learn from,
um, so that I could create andown and really make strong my
yeses and my nos.

(01:06:39):
This is, this is where I'll meetpeople, and then this is where
I'm not available.
To meet people and some of theirneeds.
And I think having that reallycurated and knowing you can
always change it and evolve it.
But um, yeah, I, my advice wouldbe different for people who
might be starting out in thesexuality world.
And I think part of that isreally cultivating going slow,

Willow (01:07:01):
Mm-hmm.

Leah (01:07:02):
you know?
But you do, you have to make ityour own.
It has to feel right.

Willow (01:07:06):
It has to feel right.
and that includes knowing yourvalue, you know, and charging
what, what is right for you,even if it's above and beyond
what everyone else is charging.

Leah (01:07:14):
And you'll make mistakes and you'll learn from that and,
and you'll continue to cultivateand hopefully not be
discouraged.
Um, uh, oh, there was, oh, therewas something else I found
really interesting about theconversation is this.
Having a relationship and havingthe work and how much of a rub
that is for so many women inthis industry.

Willow (01:07:36):
Mm-hmm.

Leah (01:07:36):
if I have the work, I can't have the relationship.
If I have the work, I can't be amom.
You know, this, these twoopposing things.
And, and one of the lasttrainings I did, they really
sort of explored that thisrelationship between, you know,
the wife dynamic archetype andthe cortisone and having them
have a conversation, you know,having the, the mother.
Archetype and having aconversation with the whore.

(01:07:59):
Um, having the modern woman thatsays, this is what you don't do
if you wanna be a liberatedwoman.
And then the submissive, andhaving a conversation about
that, that inside archetype ofthe submissive inside your
system.
And I think it's really worthexploring in the sex space for
um, Courtesans and sex workersso that they can really
determine what's really blockingthem subconsciously, if they

(01:08:23):
have two opposing desires, howcan you have it, how can you
have both?
And, uh, that would be aninteresting conversation in, in
sort of a classroom space forpeople who are wrestling with
that.

Willow (01:08:36):
Absolutely.
Yeah, I mean, that sort ofaspecting practice is, is
valuable no matter what youropposing parts of yourself are,

Leah (01:08:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Willow (01:08:46):
are struggling with.
So check it out, try itsometime.

Leah (01:08:49):
let us know what you think about this conversation and uh,
in the comments.
And thanks for being such loyallisteners.
We love you.

Announcer (01:08:57):
Thanks for tuning in.
This episode was hosted byTantric Sex Master Coach and
positive psychology facilitator,Leah Piper, as well as by
Chinese and Functional Medicinedoctor and Taoist Techology
teacher, Dr.
Willow Brown.
Don't forget your comments,likes subscribes, and
suggestions matter.
Let's realize this new worldtogether.

All Episodes

Amy Taylor: "My Life Was Destroyed When I Said NO" - Surviving an Online Pimp Who Tried to Ruin Everything | #135 "

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

24/7 News: The Latest

Dateline NBC

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Amy Taylor: "My Life Was Destroyed When I Said NO" - Surviving an Online Pimp Who Tried to Ruin Everything | #135 "