Devi Ward Erickson: The Egoless Orgsam - How to Heal Trauma Through Your Body's Natural Bliss | #143 - The Sex Reimagined Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Dr. Willow (00:00):
Today we're going to be talking about what it means

(00:02):
to f*** your way toenlightenment, and what the heck
is enlightenment anyway when itcomes to Tantric world.

Announcer (00:10):
Welcome to the Sex Reimagined Podcast, where sex is
shame free and pleasure forward.
Let's get into the show.

Dr. Willow (00:19):
All right, so today we are so blessed and so excited
to be here with the one and onlyDevi Ward Erickson.
She is the founder of theInstitute of Authentic Tantra
Education.
She's been featured as a Tantrahealing expert in over 30
different radio and televisionnetworks worldwide, including

(00:41):
Playboy Magazine, men's Health,and a myriad of other places.
She's also been on the showSexology, which is pretty
awesome.
She is super certified in somany different areas, highly,
highly trained.
And carries such deep, deepwisdom in these ancient arts.
So basically Devi knows whatshe's talking about and as you

(01:02):
will see she walks her talk.
She is a glowing, radiant queen,and we are so blessed to have
her.
Yay, welcome.

Devi Ward Erikson (01:09):
Thank you.
Thank you so much, Devi.
Thank you.
Thank you, thank you.

Leah (01:13):
Why don't we start off right there.
Tell us what enlightenment is toyou, Devi

Yeah.
So enlightenment is freedom fromsuffering.
As far as I know, right?
So my llama often talks aboutenlightenment as a natural state
of being.
It means being a mature humanbeing free of the five root
poisons of anger, attachment,pride, jealousy, and ignorance.
And for me, enlightenment meansliving anchored in the qualities

(01:39):
of bliss, equanimity, openness,clarity, and joy.
So it's really to me just aboutbeing a happy, whole, fully
integrated human being.
Free of trauma, free ofsuffering, free of our own
discursive negative thoughts,and just being fully present and
fully embodied and living from aplace of love and connection.

Leah (01:58):
And so how does sex us to that?
Yeah.
That's a beautiful description.

Yeah.
That's a million dollarquestion.
And that's actually the thingthat turned me on to, being
trained in Tantra.
so, the concept of unitingsexuality with your spirituality
was a radical, concept.
And I was very curious about howthis occurred.
I wanted to know the mechanics.
I didn't just want concept andtheory.

(02:23):
I wanted to know concrete, likehow do we get from A to B?
So what actually sold me on thisidea is, a teaching in the
Tibetan Tantric tradition.
And that is that at the momentof orgasm that peak of pleasure
the moving pranas in yourgenitals brush the central
channel which is the shumna nadior the core of the life force in

(02:45):
the body.
And so at the moment of orgasmthose pranas brush the central
channel and we get a glimpse ofenlightenment.
We get a glimpse of ourbliss-void nature.
So if you think of that momentof orgasm there's no"I" in
orgasm, it's egoless.
In fact we have to completelysurrender the ego in order to

(03:05):
fully experience orgasm.
That is enlightenment and it'shardwired into the human design.
Every human being has access tothat whether we know it or not,
right, so that is part of thehuman blueprint.
So for me I was like, well shitif that's already hardwired into
us how do we build upon that.
How can we access that by choicewhenever we want, And then how

(03:26):
do we build upon it?
So instead of having a genitalsneeze as an orgasm I have a 10
minute orgasm, a 20 minuteorgasm, an hour long orgasm.
How do I exist in orgasmicbliss?
That's what I wanted to know,and so that's the teaching that
led me to this path.

Leah (03:42):
Beautiful.

Dr. Willow (03:43):
Oh my God.
Love it.
I love it.

Leah (03:44):
I love'bliss void', I mean what a great way to describe the
orgasm.
There is a bliss void instead ofa blackout, it's like a
whiteout.
Yeah, and I dig it.
Yeah, I might borrow that term

Yeah, well I mean it's it's part of the
Tibetan Tantric tradition so Idon't own it.

Leah (04:02):
Ok good, Right on.

And again Accessible to all of us.
It's accessible to every humanbeing.

Dr. Willow (04:09):
It's so interesting how similar you know it is to
the Taoist tradition, theTibetan, I know you know the
Taoist tradition as well.
In the Taoistist tradition wecall that moment a tiny death
where you have no sense of beingmale or female or Willow or
Leah, or Devi You have no kindof like, am I this person or

(04:30):
that person?
All that ego and identificationjust completely...
like everyone listening, nexttime you have an orgasm try to
notice if you can have a senseof self in that moment.
Yeah.

Leah (04:41):
Try to think during orgasm and I bet you can't.

Dr. Willow (04:45):
Yeah, you really can't.

Leah (04:46):
It's like the finally you get relief from the mind.

Dr. Willow (04:49):
And that tiny death, it's the ego death, right?
It's that moment where we get todrop into the oneness.
So if we can stretch that out,like you're saying, 20 minute,
hour long orgasmic bliss, thenhot damn.
We're sitting in enlightenmentfor period of time.

Well, exactly.
And when we rest in that blissit actually rewires the brain.
Right.
So then our whole worldview,this is how we carry it outta
the bedroom into our everydaylife.
Resting in this orgasmic stateof expanded consciousness has a
physiological effect on thebrain.
Chemicals are produced and allof that, in my experience,

(05:24):
actually heals and repairs thebrain.
And then we bring that healingand repair into our everyday
life.

Leah (05:29):
And there's so much to heal and repair when it comes to
our lives as these dualisticseeming human beings.
And the traumas that we gothrough and the childhoods that
we all have to survive.
Even those with happy childhoodshave their elements of having to
pinpoint the inflection pointsthat end up shaping the road

(05:52):
that they take.
And the meaning that they derivefrom those experiences, which
then creates an identitystructure.
Is that the belief system that Iwould be most served by?
You know, as we over-identifywith some painful stuff as a
child, that we make a lot ofmeaning from.
I know I have.
And I know that a lot of yourwork, your specialty, is around

(06:14):
sexual healing.
Could you share more about that,both your story and how your
school addresses sexual healing?

Yeah, absolutely.
So the focus is on sexualhealing because that was my
journey, because that is how Icame to Tantra.
It was introduced to me as apath of healing and a path to
realize my ultimate nature.
At the time I didn't have aconcept of sexual enlightenment,
like those two concepts were notmarried in my brain.

(06:42):
I was a monk, right?
I had been a monk for a decade.
So the concept of enlightenmentwas amazing.
The concept of like healing frommy suffering, that was really
amazing.
But I didn't understand how mysexuality really fit into that.
And I actually didn't understandhow deeply I needed to heal
sexually, because that's thething, in this conditioned
existence in mainstream society.
What is normal for sex isactually trauma.

(07:05):
That's normal, right?
So I was coming from thisposition that I was just
sexually normal, and then cometo find out that I'm actually
sexually traumatized andsexually shut down, even though
I was a stripper in my earlytwenties.
So the path of and the processof sexual healing for me
transformed me from the insideout.
And it was an embodiedexperience of using pleasure as

(07:29):
medicine, sex as medicine,combined with these yogic
methods, these somatic sexualhealing practices.
And I blew through a lifetime oftrauma in a very short period of
time by being able to rest inthat orgasmic void state while
my traumas arose in the centerof it.

(07:50):
And being able to redirect myfocus from the pain of that
event to the bliss of thisorgasm.
So it's like my trauma wasarising in a container of bliss.
It was really easy to let it go.
So that is the brilliance ofsexual healing for me, is that
it's not like, you know, oh,it's hard and the this and the
that, you gotta chip away itwith an iceberg and the armor

(08:12):
and the whatever.
Dude with bliss and orgasm, itmelts away.

Dr. Willow (08:16):
Like there's no more room for the trauma.
It's like, let's pack thesecells and these tissues with so
much bliss and so much good thatthere's just, there's no more
room for the trauma.
And then you don't have to gothrough the story and figure it
out and talk about it, be inyour head about it.

Leah (08:32):
You skip decades of therapy.

Yeah.
You really can.

Dr. Willow (08:36):
Also just the nervous system shifts.
Like I've worked with people whowere traumatized at, you know,
four years old, two years old,and they go through this shake
sometimes, you know, this likeabsolute reconfiguration of not
only the brain pathways butthese whole bodies.
Like the shashumnadi getscompletely cleansed and purified
and they're just a differentperson the next day.

(08:58):
It's so powerful.

Isn't that amazing?
It completely cleansed andpurified with orgasmic bliss.
Love it.
And these mofos want to try andtell us that like, sex and
Tantra don't connect.
Like look, not you guys, but I,we hear that in the field.
Like, oh no there's no sex inTantra.
I'm like, look, not in mylineage.

(09:20):
That's right.

Dr. Willow (09:21):
Right, right.
Well, I love how you marry...
I mean you've had such aninteresting journey, a stripper
to a monk to here you areblending the two.
I love how you bring the Tibetanmedicine into your Tantric
teaching.
I think that's really unique andreally, for me, very exciting.
I love to geek out on theancient stuff.

So, yeah.
Well again, that was thefoundation of my training.
So I didn't enter Tantra througha workshop or through a class.
I had seen Neo Tantra on myradar, I was not interested at
all.
Because I didn't understand howwhat I saw would lead to greater
realization.
And I was very committed to mypath.
Again I took vows, I was a monk,I was committed to the

(10:01):
realization of my ultimatenature in this human And so for
me when I encountered theTantric teachings they were
through this particular lineage.
I was trained under the umbrellawith the blessing and permission
of a lama under this lineage ofthe Shangpa Kagyu tradition.
And so the way Tantra integratedinto my system was as a form of

(10:24):
medicine.
And that is the way my llamateaches Tantra.
He teaches non-sexual Tantra tothe public, well...
yeah, he teaches non-sexualTantra the public.
But he teaches Tantra asmedicine and as a tool for
healing and transforming andrealizing our ultimate nature.

Dr. Willow (10:39):
So powerful.
And do you have any fun, likeI'm sure you have a million
miracle stories, but whereyou've really seen pleasure
orgasmic energy sexual energyheal someone's physical ailments
and body.

So what the most most tangible experiences
that I see are particularly forpeople with vulvas and vaginas
who have a lot of numbness andlack of sensation.
And so what we've observedthrough the years, and these are
always like incrediblecelebrations, is a woman will
come and come to work with us orone of our graduates, and she's

(11:17):
completely shut down.
Kat has little to no sensation,let's say in her clitoris.
And through doing the practices,the non-sexual five element
Tantra practices, and thenweaving that into the sexual
pleasure practices that weteach, in a very short period of
time sensation begins to arise.
And then through that whenthey're able to access sensation
then we build upon that untilthat sensation becomes pleasure.

(11:41):
And then again in a very shortperiod of time they're able to
experience bliss and orgasmthrough sexual stimulation.
It's like their body opens up,the channels open up and then
they're able to reclaim theirbirthright to orgasm and
pleasure again in a very shortperiod of time.
So that's not necessarily likecorrecting an illness so to
speak but it is correcting.

(12:02):
Like if you've gone 30 years andyou've never felt sensation in
your clitoris to within a matterof four to eight weeks all of a
sudden you're having clitoralorgasms that is tremendous.
And that is a story that we hearover and over and over again

Leah (12:16):
Can you say a little bit more about the process?
It sounds like there's genitalmassage but what are the other
elements and concepts thatyou're using to facilitate the
movement or the turn on or theneuro pathways syncing up
between those channels?
So that you can go from beingnumb for 30 years and feeling

(12:36):
nothing to actually havingsensation to the point that six
weeks later you're going intofull on bliss.
What other elements are youbringing to the table regarding
that?

The energy body yoga of Tibetan Five
Element Tantra.
So that is the emphasis and thatis the foundation of everything
that we teach.
So in this system of healing theenergy body is considered senior
or superior to the physical.
And so if we're able to accessthe energy body we can catalyze
change on the physical level.
We work specifically with thefive element teachings and the

(13:06):
five elements in this traditionare: earth, water, fire, air,
and space.
And each of the five elements isan antidote to one of the five
root poisons of human emotionwhich are: anger, attachment,
pride, jealousy, and ignorance.
So by working with these yogicmethods of meditation so we we
start with a non-sexual energybody yoga first.

(13:27):
And so doing sitting meditationwith visualization, chanting,
mantra, and engaging with theenergy body directly.
Working with each element andits corresponding energy center
to purify blocks and obstaclesin the channels and to purify
those root poisons.
That clears the pathway andcreates a fertile ground for a

(13:48):
stable foundation to then layerthe somatic sexual healing
practices.
So they work so quickly becausewe're starting with the energy
body and clearing.
I call it like sending in theground troops to begin that
clearing process first.
And then we add the physicalyoga on top of it.
So the physical yogas consist ofbreath self-stimulation.

(14:10):
Yes, absolutely genital massagebut then we also have things
that aren't necessarily amassage, but just
self-stimulation practices.
Different strokes integratingthe breath at certain peaks of
pleasure to ride those waves.
But then in the center of it wedrop the five element teachings
as well.
So this is actually why we namedour modality Authentic Tantra
because the sexual teachings ofthe Tibetan Five Elements are

(14:32):
some of the most authentic andoriginal teachings for how to
harness human sexual energy anduse it for healing and
transformation.
And so that's what we teach ourstudents to do; so first you
build a stable foundation withclearing the energy body and
cultivating mindfulness andpresence.
Then we work with the physicalyoga practice so that you can
start working with the winds andthe movement of energy in your

(14:53):
body.
And then we layer on top of thatthe again the visualization and
the energy body yoga of TibetanFive Elements sexual Tantra.
And that's why it goes so fastbecause it's working
holistically.

Leah (15:04):
Love it.
Gorgeous.

Dr. Willow (15:05):
Yeah, I love how the Tibetan...
I always have this theory comingfrom the Chinese medicine
background and also knowing alittle bit about ayurvedic and
so then also bridging the Taoistsexology and the Tantra and I'm
always thinking, gosh it mustall come from Tibet, right?
Because that's like theoriginator of all of this
philosophy and all of thismedicine.
And then India took theirversion and China took their

(15:26):
version.
And so I love that's where thatauthentic Tantra, the name of it
really comes from that originalplace.
How do you harness this energyand the sensation and open
yourself up to more experiencein your body?

Exactly, and I studied Tibetan medicine a
little bit and from what Iunderstand there's so much
overlap because they were havingmedical conferences in like 500
600 700 ad where people fromChina, Tibet, India, and Persia
were all coming together andexchanging and sharing
information in medicine.
So there's a lot of overlapbecause of

Leah (16:00):
that.
So can you say something moreabout pleasure and medicine?
Like you've talked about ithealing quickly, healing the
psyche of trauma.
And moving that outta the systemand being able to go from being
non orgasmic to orgasmic.
What else is the bridge thatmakes this medicine?

Yeah so the other component for me is a
physiological response thatoccurs in the body when we
experience pleasure.
And so I'm sure Dr.
Willow you can speak about thismuch more, it's been a long time
since I've written or lecturedon all the different chemicals
that are released in the bodyduring pleasure.
But it's healthy for us, likebottom line, pleasure is
medicine.

(16:38):
It really is, it's medicine.
Human beings are wired forpleasure, right.
And a very simple example islike if you like something you
keep doing it.
If you don't like something youdon't want to do it.
You know same as food, It's likehow we evolved over millennia is
by following pleasure.
If something tastes good, it wassafe to eat.

(16:59):
If something was stinky or nastyor bitter or didn't taste good,
generally it was poisonous.
It's very, very simple.
So pleasure good, pain yucky.
Or you know, try to avoid it,have aversion there.
But it's literally wired in tohuman physiology that pleasure
is medicinal.
Pleasure is healing for us;releasing oxytocin, dopamine,

(17:21):
serotonin.
It increases your immune system.
Like all of that scientificstuff that just goes back to;
yes pleasure is healthy for us.
That's what it is to be human.

Dr. Willow (17:30):
It's so simple.
And if we can drop into thesimplicity of it, you know, I'm
sure we can find all kinds ofscience to back it up, but
really all we need to do isexperience it.
And when you're experiencing iton a daily basis, on a regular
basis then you don't need anyconvincing, you don't need to
read studies.

(17:50):
You can see the difference inyour own body and your own life.

And I think one of the greatest, you know
tragedies of the society isconditioning us to fear pleasure
and to fear our bodies.
Right.
That's the whole likepatriarchal blah di blah.
That's that we talk about,conditioning us away from our
own intuitive power and our ownintuitive wisdom and pleasure is

(18:13):
a huge role in that.
When it feels good in the body,that's a yes.
When it feels yucky, that's ano.
But we've been taught andtrained in the society to
override that.
And so that has been a source oftrauma for many of us.
Overriding that intuitiveknowing in our own bodies has
led some of us down paths thatwe wish we hadn't gone down.

Leah (18:31):
Yeah.
And that conditioning can createthese unconscious reactions to
life, you know, where we becomedefensive or we become jealous,
like you said, or angry like yousaid.
These are reactions that aren'tour choosing, they were dropped
into our little bodies.
And half the time we don't evenknow why we react the way that
we react.
And frankly, you don't need toknow why.

(18:52):
You just have to do the piecethat shakes it out.
So that you don't have to keepfeeling angry and keep feeling
jealous that that there's hopeyou can break those patterns in
that conditioning.

Yeah, absolutely.
And there's so many differentpathways to that.
So for me, the five elementteachings are the core pathway
for me because they directlyantidote those five root
poisons.
And after 13 years of doingthose specifically I can tell
you they work.
I have a lot less poison in mymind and body than I did when I
first started.
And same with my students andeveryone in my universe.

(19:27):
Right.
The healing happens so quicklybut then layered over years and
years and years it's like, wowI've come a long way in 13
years.
Right?
The beginning of the journey itseemed like I was going at
lightning speed.
And as we continue to go it justincreases and the results become
even more and more pronounced.
And so yeah, healing thosetraumas, those microtraumas, and

(19:51):
macro traumas that we'veexperienced in life that keep us
contained in that loop of painand suffering.
And finding ways to antidotethat, and break through that, to
restore human capacity forconnection and pleasure and joy.
And that to me is the goal ofTantra.

Dr. Willow (20:10):
Yeah, and it's really such a layered process.
I mean, the basics of whatyou're teaching this five
element system is like, youcould take that and be at any
place in your journey of sexualawakening and just get so much
out of it.
No matter where you're at,you've just starting out or if
you're at a level that the threeof us are at, or some other

(20:31):
level that's crazy you can stillgo so much deeper with what's
possible for your own healingand evolution with the simplest
stuff.
Which is what is so powerfulabout it.

Exactly.
That's the beauty of lineagebased teachings.
They can meet you whereveryou're at.

Leah (20:49):
Can you give us like, because I mean right now we're
looking at you, and you're thisbeautiful, vivacious, you
radiate, right?
You know, you can feel theembodied knowledge, number one,
like you can tell when someoneknows their stuff because it's
in their body.
And then it comes from there andthey can share it from here.
But I imagine that's not whereyou started.

(21:11):
So like, what is the picture ofDevi before she had this
transformation?

Yeah.
Yeah.
Thank you for that.
So, yeah definitely I was notwho I am today.
I would never have conceived ofbeing where I am today, it's
like a whole alternate realityright.
So so yeah, so my story and Iwas born in 1974 and I'm

(21:37):
biracial and black, I claimboth.
And I was born five years afterinterracial marriage became
legal in the United States.
And I share this because thiswas very important for my
formative years.
Number one, five years before Iwas born, I was not legally

(21:58):
allowed to exist.
So, you know, just thinking ofthat like not being allowed to
exist.

Leah (22:06):
And I think conceptually we think that was so much
further away than it actuallywas.

Yeah.
Yeah.
So, so just because the lawchanged doesn't mean that the
cultural climate changed orsociety changed.
And so I experienced atremendous amount of racial
violence as a very little tinychild.
You know, we think we're, youknow, 21 people were murdered in
Texas, 19 little babies, 19little fourth graders, and

(22:32):
they're tiny, looking atpictures of them.
They're tiny, right?
Yes.
The little tiny babies.
And that's what I wasexperiencing at that age.
I was experiencing peopleshouting, you know, racial
curses and racial slurs at me,kids, my own age, adults.
Like that was like walking homefrom school every day.
That's the trauma that I had tolive through just as a little

(22:53):
third grader, fourth grader,fifth grader, a little tiny
baby.
So that shaped me and, woundedme deeply, I will say.
They call it internalized racialinferiority now.
Now there's a name for it, butat the time I was just fucked
up.
And then layering on top ofthat, I was sexually abused as a

(23:13):
child by one of my extendedfamily members.
And so I had that trauma wiredinto me.
And then I had,you know, bothtwo traumatized parents grew up
in a home of domestic violence,intense domestic violence.
And so then I had that traumawired into me.
So by the time I was a youngadult I had survived several
suicide attempts.

(23:33):
I was just a mess.
And this is like in the late1980s early 1990s.
And so the world oftrauma-informed awareness is not
what it is today.
We had no fucking clue.
We were bumbling around in thedark, I just thought it was a
head case.
I didn't know that I wastraumatized.

(23:54):
And so I tell this story oftento give context, and to give
people hope.
When I was around 20 that wholeage is blurry for me because so
much was happening.
And I was a stripper in DetroitSo it's not like being a
stripper in Vegas.
I was a stripper right onMichigan Avenue and Eight Mile
with Eminem, you know inDetroit, Woodward Avenue It was

(24:18):
not pretty.

Leah (24:19):
Wow You grew up in in Michigan?

I was born in Washington DC and I moved around
a lot but I was in Michigan fromthe age of 12 to 22/23ish.

Leah (24:28):
Okay, I grew up in Michigan too.
I didn't know that.

Where abouts?

Leah (24:33):
East Lansing,

Oh!

Leah (24:34):
So Michigan State University, kind of grew up as a
little campus kid.

All right.
All right.
Yeah, we're down in Plymouth,Canton, Ann Arbor area, and then
Detroit.
So when I was 19 and I wasstripping in Detroit, I was
overwhelmed by my own trauma.
I was devastated.
It was the darkest period of mylife and there was no hope.
And I sat down with a razorblade and a gallon of wine.

(25:02):
And I was really committed toending my life.
It was my first, what I wouldcall serious suicide attempt.
And needless to say that did notoccur through the grace of God
and the love of my mother, Iwill say.
And that was my bottom becausefor me the idea and concept of

(25:23):
suicide had always been my plan.
And in that moment when I was100% committed to taking my life
and when I got to that point Icouldn't you know jump from that
ledge, I couldn't boundrywhatever it is.
I couldn't do it.
I knew that I could no longerpsych myself out and pretend
like that was plan B.

(25:44):
I knew that I needed to commitentirely to living, and so I
did.

Leah (25:49):
Wow.

And I refused to live in suffering.
I refused to live in pain.
I knew that there was somethingelse and I was determined to
find it.
So that began my spiritualjourney.
That began my spiritual seeking.
And at the time, again, therewasn't somatic therapy.
I mean, I had some talk therapy,I did some breath work but none
of it was getting to the root ofthe suffering.

(26:12):
So I devoted myself and Idevoted my life to God.
And I moved to Hawaii, became amonk, moved to North Carolina,
went through training.
And that was my life plan.
I was going to be a monk andtravel the country and travel
the world teaching meditation.
And then I found my way to Kauaiand after a couple of years

(26:34):
there I encountered Tibetan FiveElement Tantra and here I am
today.

Dr. Willow (26:38):
Wow.
What a journey.

Leah (26:39):
What a great story.
Wow I'm sure there's viewersthat can really relate with
parts of your journey and howdeep that despair and isolation
and deep loneliness.
You know we've got that placeinside of ourselves that really
truly covers up that feeling ofNot being worthy.

(27:03):
We are not deserving of a body.

Yeah.

Leah (27:06):
You know all these things that causes us to think about
wanting out.

Yeah.

Leah (27:11):
And we choose all sorts of things to try to distract us
from feeling that kind of pain.

Yeah.

Leah (27:16):
And what a beautiful example of choosing to live and
then like being tenacious forthat, you know, like going for
it.

Yeah.

Leah (27:29):
Congratulations

Dr. Willow (27:30):
We're so glad you did not succeed at your
commitment, to end your ownlife.
And that's true for anyone who'sin that state you know.
I've definitely been theremyself and it's it's such an
opportunity to look.
I feel like those darkestrecesses of our souls, that's
some serious medicine in there.

(27:51):
So if you can go in and extractthose shadows and really look at
them and really be with them,you can become like Devi.
Like you can become thisglowing, amazing like soul in
the world who walks their talkand has studied, you know,
prolifically and has becomesomebody who knows how to shed

(28:15):
grace on this wild world.
You when the shootings happen Iwas talking to my mom and she's
like, what am I supposed to do?
I don't have an answer.
I'm like, well I think I have ananswer.
And it's the same answer thatyou have Devi, is just like look
deeper.
Like go inside to those placesthat make you want to end your

(28:36):
life, and end it all, and justget close to them.
Get to know them, don't try toget rid of them or get away from
them.
Get to know them, there's a lotof power there.

Yeah The you know the concept of the wounded
healer.

Dr. Willow (28:50):
Exactly.

And there's a concept and I'm not sure where
it comes from for it's in mymind that it's Tibetan medicine
but that could be incorrect.
But it's like, the deeper thesuffering No it's NVC it's the
deeper the pain the greater theneed the deeper the suffering
the more potential for power andhealing and transformation.
And so, one thing that you said,Leah, that really resonated is
the isolation of those moments.

(29:12):
And so what, for me, the thingthat kept me from doing the deed
was the, knowing of what itwould do to my mother.
So it was actually that threadand that cord of love.
Even though my mother didn't andI didn't have a good
relationship at all, I could notleave her with that suffering.
And so she was my lifeline inthat moment and she was what

(29:33):
kept me here and in the body.
And so, you know, I didn't cutmy wrist.
I didn't take that final cutbecause of connection, because
of the power of love.
And when we feel so isolated,part of that is disconnected and
not having any resources forsupport.
So I would just implore you,anyone who is in a deep dark

(29:54):
night of the soul is reach outfor support and connection.
Because connection is themedicine.
Connection is what is gonna helpus navigate these dark hell
holes that we may need to gothrough in our lives.
But we must have support to doit.

Leah (30:09):
Yeah.
That's interesting, I had thatmoment, that inflection point
moment when Oprah shared herstory about being sexually
abused as a kid.
Because I thought I was allalone in my story.
And although I didn't have arelationship to Oprah.
Of which, I want one.
she was this person who Iwatched every day after school

(30:33):
and I adored.
And so to have someone who Iadmired so much, who had this
huge stage reveal a secret, andwatching her physical experience
as she opened up about this, itwas like I suddenly, I knew I
wasn't alone.
I didn't have her to talk to.

(30:53):
it took me years before I talkedto anyone else afterward but it
was like even someone on tv whoyou can relate with, who you
don't even know but who'ssharing your story.
Gave me like, it bought meyears.
In order to be able to finallygo to like open up this big,

(31:13):
deep, isolating secret, I reallythought I was the only one that
this was happening to and thatnaivety, when you're...
you just don't know...
you don't know isolation justkeeps you so small.
What Dey is saying is reach forconnection.
Because as human beings, wethrive with the feeling of

(31:34):
belonging.
And you came into this body tolive in this body no matter how
painful it can be.
And pleasure is your birthrightand pleasure is medicine.
And so just keep aiming for thepleasure without attachment to
the pleasure.
But keep aiming for all thethings that bring beauty in awe

(31:55):
and experiences of love intoyour life.
And yeah, it really just comesback to like our life
satisfaction is very muchconnected for feeling like we
belong somewhere.
And so that's an invitation forall of us to create belonging
for others.
It's not just the job of thosefeeling isolated to reach for

(32:15):
connection and to reach forbelonging.
We can all broaden and start tosee each other and be there for
each other and invite connectionand community and belonging and
non separation.
Because we've really beenthrough a difficult time of
feeling separate from eachother.
And feeling lost.
And we've got some repair to do.

Yeah, we do.
We do.
And I thank you so much forsharing that story, Leah.
So it just, it gives me shiversand chills and just touch my
heart so deeply.

Leah (32:43):
Thank you.
So how do you think we can, as aculture, as a community of
loving beings, what do we needto do to start healing the
divide between each other?
What are your insights, being awoman of color, can we start to
do that can make lastingchanges, and can bring love and

(33:06):
connection among ourselves?
You have any ideas, thoughts?

Yeah.
We have to do our homeworkbecause healing starts here,
right?
So in our tradition we talkabout inside, outside, same.
So the healing and purificationand clearing that I do here also
emanates externally.
It also shows up in my outsideworld.
And I can only connect thisdeeply and intimately with
another human being as I'mwilling to connect with myself.

(33:31):
So I could not be in healthyrelationship with others until I
had healthy relationship withmyself.
And that's, to me, a lifelongjourney.
I'm continuing to cultivatedeeper levels of health and
wellness with my relationship tomyself and my emotions and, you
know, my experience of life.
And so the most, I would say thepredominant thing that I see in

(33:53):
terms of healing racial dividesis doing our internal work and
also committing ourselves tounderstanding internalized
racial oppression.
So the other thing about ourschool is that we are a declared
anti-racist organization.
And what that means is weprioritize understanding racism
as a source of trauma.
And we prioritize understandinghow internalized racial

(34:17):
oppression presents itself inpeople of color and white bodied
people.
And understanding that dynamicis always in play.
It's a very nuanced dynamic andit's always in play in any
interaction.
And so being able to understandhow internalized racial
inferiority shows up in me inrelationship to white people
helps me interact with whitepeople better.

(34:39):
So that there's more peace andthere's more clarity and there's
no more flow.
So I'm not getting caught up inhung up in my own internalized
sense of worthlessness becauseof my cultural conditioning.
That's the thing to understandabout, you know, racism, is that
it's not personal.
It's systemic.
We live in a system of whitesupremacy.
That is a fact.
It's undeniable, particularlyfor people of color.

(35:01):
And so understanding that racismis not personal, right?
It's not about me.
It's not about you, who we areas human beings.
It's an operating system thatoperates in our psyche and in
our culture, a hundred percentof the time, 24-7.
So I can say, I think of it aslike decoding, right?
So on our website we have ouranti-racist covenant.

(35:25):
So what it means to us to be ananti-racist organization.
And on that page we also havethe manifestations of
internalized racial oppression.
And they fall into twocategories, internalized racial
inferiority and internalizedracial superiority.
And so they're there on thewebsite in like five bullet
lists for everybody to see sothat we can copy and paste them

(35:47):
and use them in our interaction.
So when we do clash and there isconflict, we can be like, okay,
so what was going on in thisconflict is you are manifesting
internalized racial superiorityin points one, two, five, seven,
and eight, and I was manifestinginternalized racial inferiority
and points 3, 4, 7, and two.
Or however it goes.
Right.
So it's something that we'reconstantly examining inside of

(36:09):
ourselves.
And what I've learned, whatwe've done, our school has done
our training with the People'sInstitute for Survival and
beyond.
It's about breaking free of thisconcept of duality, but at the
same time being able to observehow it arises.
So it's both, it's like ultimateand relative reality at the same
time.
Being able to hold both is true,

Dr. Willow (36:30):
I love how you give voice to it and just really you
know, clarify like we all doneed to heal as individuals and
then there's this collectivesystemic, it's almost like a
mold that we've gotta clean up,you know?
It's and it's got its littletendrils into all these corners
of the of human beings and ofthe world psyches and bodies.

(36:51):
And it's powerful.

Leah (36:53):
You know what?
It's reminding me of anotherinterview and one of the
concepts that came up was in asexual situation and, you know,
an opportunity for explorationarises.
And the answer is, I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I've sat in a lot of, as I wascoming of age, I've been

(37:13):
thinking about this.
I sat in a lot of, I don't know.
And although I don't know wastrue, I didn't actually have
another answer.
There was a weak place.
My I don't know was presented ina way of; you tell me, you try
something out and I'll tell youif it works for me or not, and
what a setup that is.
Because it's basically givingover to someone else; Here, you

(37:36):
tell me what's right and whenyou get it wrong, you're gonna
be the one that gets to beresponsible for getting it
wrong.
And not me the person whodoesn't know.
And so to be able to go I'mgonna phrase that differently.
I don't know, but I'm willing tofind out.
Ugh, I don't know, and I'mscared to find out.
I don't know, will you help me?

(37:56):
I don't know yet.
Yes.
You know, it's a whole notherway of going; I'm gonna be
responsible for my not knowing.
I'm not gonna give it o over upto someone else to do the work
and then to take all theresponsibility for me when they
get it wrong.
And I remember like doing thatspecifically sexually.

(38:19):
It was like, Hey, what do youlike?
You know, someone wanting topleasure me and please me, and
me going, I don't know, trysomething, I'll tell you if I
like it.
And that being the sociallyacceptable answer in my cultural
viewpoint.

Well, I mean it's like that's the demand put
on us as heterosexual,cisgendered women of our
generation.
Like you best not know what youwant and bed only sluts do.

Leah (38:41):
And That's right.

Unless you're married.

Leah (38:44):
That's right.
Right, right.

So like it was a survival mechanism for us
to not know what we liked inbed.

Leah (38:52):
Yeah.
It was expected.

Dr. Willow (38:54):
And we're here to change that.

Leah (38:57):
So many layers.
So many layers.
It's really exciting.

Dr. Willow (39:02):
It's powerful.
What's one thing that's going onin your work right now, Devi,
that's like really up for youand really lighting you up and
really exciting you?

Leah (39:11):
What's do you see an exciting.

Whoa.
Gosh, there's so many, there'sso many things.
So I will say that we, somethingthat's really juicy for me right
now is we launched a MembershipProgram.
And what I really love aboutthat is it really meets needs
for accessibility for a largerpopulation.
And it meets needs for communitybuilding to be able to connect

(39:36):
together regularly andfrequently.
And and it's just been fun.
Meets needs for pleasure andjoy.
And so, you know, part of ouranti-racist ideology in the
organization has been to makesome of our public teachings
more accessible because, youknow, again, we're coming outta

(39:57):
covid, there's been a lot of jobloss.
There's you know, systemicissues like all sorts of things.
So to be able to offer TibetanFive Element Tantra the wisdom,
and the medicine of this wisdom,I'll say in a way that makes it
more accessible to people whoare in dire straits, has really,
really been congruent with myview of anti-racism.

(40:19):
Because anti-racism isn't justabout people of color, it's
about our entire society.
And how these systems ofoppression affect all of us to
our detriment.
And so that's been reallyexciting and juicy.
The membership program isongoing.
And again, it makes it veryaffordable and very accessible
for people to tap into ourteachings and continue to uh,
I'm gonna say dine on them.

(40:42):
Munch on them because as we allknow, tantra's a lifelong path.
It's not one workshop, it's notone class.
This is a path of personalhealing and spiritual
realization.
And so consistency, practice,diligence, all of that is what
leads to these amazingtransformative results.
And so for people to continuehaving access and continue being

(41:02):
able to absorb the medicine isreally juicy for me.
And then the thing that I'veseen from that is oh my God,
like again, the results.
We had one of our students who,like, when she first signed on,
she was like, I'm so grateful.
I'm single moms, financiallystruggling, blah, blah, blah.
She started doing some of theelemental meditation practices

(41:22):
and within two weeks she's like,oh my God.
Sold this house or sold thisproperty.
I've got money now.
I'm feeling more supported.
You know, it's not likeeverything changes overnight,
but you get like fast results.
That's pretty fast results.

Leah (41:33):
It's amazing how fast it can go.

Exactly.
It's amazing how fast it can go.
So seeing magic arise.
And then also from that, peopleare being introduced to these
methods at a very, low risk wayto see if they integrate and see
if they're right for their bodyand their spiritual path.
Because as you know, likethere's many different branches
and traditions of Tantra and noteverybody's suitable for every

(41:56):
branch.
And this lineage is veryspecific.
And so I love people beingintroduced to these methods and
being able to get a taste ofthem and experience, experience
the results for themselves, andthen determine if this is a path
that they wanna follow long termand eventually become a
certified practitioner.
So we've had a boost in theinterest in our certification

(42:17):
program.
Right.
And it's just really enrichingand delicious.

Dr. Willow (42:22):
It's also really digestible for them, who already
have like kids and family and,trying to just maintain.
Like trying to just survive, forsomebody who's in that place in
their life.
You know, it can, the thing ofdoing Tantra is like, I don't
have time.
Like I don't have time to gettogether with my partner and
have a two hour intimacy date.

(42:43):
Are you kidding me?
I have so much to do and kids toput to bed.
And so giving them a taste,giving them a, you know, an
introductory, I love thatmembership.
Fantastic.
So, so exciting.
We'll have to put a link forthat as well.

Leah (42:55):
Will you share a little bit about your certification
process?
What if someone does feel calledto do this work and wanna be
able to support other being withit?
What is your certificationprocess look like?
And then what is it that yourgraduates do, you know,
professionally using this?

Yeah, great question.
Thank you for that.
So I'm very proud because ourcertification program is
actually accredited by theCanadian government.

Leah (43:20):
Hey Canada!

Yeah.
Yay.
So we are accredited by theMinistry of Education advanced
Skills and vocational TrainingBranch of blahdie, blahdie,
blah.
It's very colonial.
I can't think of all the words.
But what it means is we wentthrough a yearlong process of

(43:44):
their reviewing our curriculumand ensuring all our ducks were
in a row, so to speak, andensuring that we were able to
provide the services that wemarket for and advertise and
ensure that students goingthrough our training program
would receive the skillset thatwe promised them.
And they said, yep A+ stamp ofapproval, there you go.
And now we get to report to themevery year and pay them lots of

(44:04):
money.
Um, so our certification processis actually a two year training
program.
So phase one is what we call ourTantra Mastery Training.
And that is a one-on-onepersonal coaching program that
takes you really deep into boththe sexual and non-sexual
application of Tibetan FiveElement Tantra.

(44:27):
And if you're introduced to it,let's say through our Membership
Program, and you're like, oh,this is delicious I want to eat
more.
Then the next step is the phaseone, the Tantra Mastery, so that
you can have more of anexperience and experience more
embodiment and more enrichmentand more connection to the
methods.
And again, determine if youreally want to go, if you really
wanna go the whole way.
And then once your phase one iscomplete, you're eligible for

(44:48):
phase two.
And so phase two is an 11 monthtraining that starts the first
business day of January andevery calendar year.
And so that's an 11 monthprogram that consists of four
modules.
I won't go in into depth here.
Uh, but at the end of that, thenyou are certified.
We're also affiliated with theAmerican College of Sexologists

(45:08):
International.
So all of our graduates also areeligible to receive the
additional designation as aCertified Sexologist through our
certification program.

Leah (45:18):
Great.

Dr. Willow (45:18):
Fantastic.

And our graduates are considered
practitioners of natural healingby the Canadian government.

Leah (45:25):
Wow.
That's so cool.
That's fantastic.

Dr. Willow (45:27):
Yeah, well done.
You have really set up anempire.
I love it.
So fantastic.
Good for you.

Leah (45:33):
And so how do your how do those graduates apply that
teaching in their ownbusinesses?
Do they have a private practice?
Is it a teaching classes type ofthing?
Is it a mix of the two?

Yeah, all of the above.
I would say.
So some people already have anestablished coaching business or
massage therapy or healing orintegrative medicine business,
and they add the Tantra on topof it or they weave it into
their business.
And that's something that wereally celebrate and really
encourage.
And we've seen that ourgraduates who already have an
existing platform in place doreally well adding this to it.

(46:09):
Also people who just, like, Ijust wanna be a Tantra teacher.
That's, you know, that's it.
We train our instructors to becoaches uh, to teach classes,
workshops, personal coachingsessions, women, men, couples,
non-binary, like all the wholeshebang.
So that you can share and teachyour Tantra however you want.
We do have some practitionerswho are also body workers as

(46:31):
well.
And so they weave the Tantrainto their body work as well.
Uh, we support ourpractitioners.
Like my understanding of Tantra,the way it was taught to me, is
that when you receive theteachings and they begin to work
inside of you, your emanation ofTantra is gonna be unique to
you.
And that is a critical, that isa key component and a critical

(46:55):
piece.
So I wanted our graduates to beable to use their Tantra in the
way that best worked for them,so that I'm teaching you in this
particular way with thisparticular format.
But what I want you to do isintegrate these methods and make
them your own, and then youtransmit these teachings and the
flavor and the style that worksbest for you.
Does that make sense?

Dr. Willow (47:13):
Totally.
I love it.
That's how we teach too.
Like here's the foundation themedicine and now you make it
your own.
You create your own pathway withit.
It's because then it's then it'sreally emanating further out.
It's rippling out into theworld, into their students in
the most authentic way, which isthe name of it.

(47:36):
The Authentic Tantra education,so really powerful.

Well, yeah, and I love that because like my
llama could never have imaginedin a million years that I would
be doing this with a Tantra.
He's just like, let me teachyou, do this, don't do that.
Focus on this, don't focus.
You know, like, yes, blah, blah,blah.
He, look, he would've neverimagined in a million years that
I moved to Canada and start aschool

Dr. Willow (47:58):
And he never would've come with all the
experience that you've beenthrough from even before you
were born, just all the piecesof your journey have made you
the exceptional guide andteacher that you are today.

Leah (48:12):
Which leads into your generous free offer to help
people get started on their ownjourney.
Devi is gifting you with a Freeintroduction to Authentic Tantra
so that you can have a deliciousappetizer into this this five
elements world.
Is there anything you wanna sayabout that?

Yeah, so our Free Introduction to Authentic
Tantra introduces you to ourfoundation, which are the four
pillars of Healing.
So the four pillars of healingare: meditation, movement,
connection, and pleasure.
And so the authentic Tantramodality teaches tools and
methods that fall under each ofthese four pillars.

(48:55):
And so the meditations obviouslyare the Tibetan five element
teaching.
So in this free intro, you'llget a uh, whatever, a tutorial
on what those are and how theywork.
So I draw this fun diagram ofthe energy body and how the five
element energy body practiceswork to heal and clear, purify
and enrich your entire energybody, and then therefore your

(49:17):
physical body.
And then in one of the lastvideos, I offer a five step solo
sexual healing session usingsome of the methods that we
talked about.
And so, it's a really wonderful,in my opinion, it's a very
wonderful intro and it comeswith practical, concrete tools
that you can begin using in yourlife immediately.
So that's that free intro.

Dr. Willow (49:38):
It sounds like such a like a good, safe, okay, you
can try this on.
Like, if you've always been whatthe hell is Tantra?
I've heard it.
Does it just mean you're havingsex with a lot of different
people in a room together?
What is this stuff?
This is very foundational.
It's very tangible, digestible,this free gift that Devi's

(49:59):
offering so Devidefinitely takeadvantage of it.

Yeah.
Thank you.

Leah (50:04):
Thank you so much for being with us today.

Oh, it's such a pleasure.
It's such pleasure.
Yeah.
I'm so grateful.
Thank you.

Announcer (50:12):
Now it's time for our favorite part.
The dish.

Leah (50:23):
Welcome, welcome back.
It is Sex Reimagined, and wejust got to sit down with the
beautiful, the talented, theamazing Devi Ward Erickson.

Dr. Willow (50:37):
Yeah.
She really has created such atalented and driven woman.
And has really created such anopportunity for those who are
interested in Tantra to diveinto some of the the ancient
wisdom around it.
Bringing in the Tibetan fiveelements to Tantric practice and

(51:00):
wisdom.
I mean, she's studied withmonks.
I loved her whole thing.
She went from a stripper inDetroit of all places, that's
kinda hardcore.
Stripper in Detroit to a monk,just like teaching meditation
and just really deep into thatworld to kind of bringing forth

(51:22):
this beautiful offering oflearning Tantra through the lens
of Tibetan Buddhism.

Leah (51:30):
Yeah, it made me really wanna go dive deeper with her
and learn about these this fiveelement practice.
Like practicing Tantra throughthat particular lens.
I found it really intriguing andinteresting.
And I love all of the work she'sdone to have it be seen as a

(51:51):
valid course of study, you know?
That like the Canadiangovernment has backed up and
validated it as an institution.
I just feel so, I mean, I haveno reason to feel proud of her,
but I do feel a sense of like,yeah, like she's doing it!

Dr. Willow (52:07):
I'm proud of her.
She's worked hard for it.
She's come a long way.
She told us a story of her owndark night of the soul where she
was about to end her life, takeher life.
And if any of you have beenthere, I myself have, and if
you've been on that moment whereyou've got the knife to your

(52:27):
wrist or you've got the razorblade there or the pills nearby
and you're just really over it,you're like what is my worth?
There is no worth here.
I have a zero, less than zero,none.
And so to climb out of thatdarkness to where she is at now
is really inspiring to witness.

(52:49):
we've both been on this path fora long time as well.
And the beauty of it is thatwe're all in different places
with it.
We're all and it's all powerfuland it's all worthy.

Leah (53:01):
I think what Willow is alluding to, I know I can speak
for myself, is why aren't I asaccomplished?
Why do I feel like I'm not asfar along like, God, she's so
quick.
Like she's just so fast in herability to communicate and
articulate and message clearly,what she has to say, what she's

(53:25):
offering, what's important.
Like I just kind of was justsitting there going, oh, she's
so cool.

Dr. Willow (53:34):
She is so cool.
You know, it's funny, this is mysecond interview with Devi Ward
and I felt the same way thefirst time too.
I was like, she is just really arockstar and so cool.
And who am I, and where am I,and what am I doing?
I had my own insecurities comeup back then too.
That was like, I don't know,seven or eight years ago.
It was a long time ago.

(53:55):
And so it's just reallyinteresting doing all of these
interviews.
You know, some people you'relike, oh, I aspire to be like
you.
It's just a golden arrow.
It's just a golden arrowpointing us to what we truly
want.
What we really desire.
And we have the ability tocreate that.
So, you know, it's gonna lookdifferent for everyone, but

(54:16):
nobody can do Devi's work theway Devi does it.
And so what she brings to thetable is so unique and so
valuable for those who need hermedicine.
So it's just it's an opportunityfor us to drop into the truth of
the fact that there are so manydifferent kinds of people walks

(54:39):
of life on this planet.
And anyone who is looking intoevolving their sexuality,
evolving their self as a humanbeing through the avenue of
their sexuality, there is aguide for you out there.
There is the perfect teacher outthere for you.

Leah (54:55):
Well, and it's like another thing of just going get
over yourself you're not afucking snowflake.
You know?
Like, no one's a little fuckingunicorn.
So when you get kind of in thatcomparison place, it's a
beautiful chance to just sort oflaugh at yourself and not take
yourself so seriously.

Dr. Willow (55:11):
It's so true.
It's so true.

Leah (55:13):
And there's not anyone who doesn't compare themselves to
somebody else, especially intheir industry.

Dr. Willow (55:18):
Absolutely.

Leah (55:21):
These things are gonna arise.
You know, one of the things thatwas interesting is Devi and I
were both featured in a moviecalled Sexology.
Okay.
I never even looked at themovie.
I have a tendency to like notwanna look at myself after
filming something.
I just know I'm gonna pick itapart and it's gonna be a brutal
shame filled experience.

(55:41):
And I don't really like puttingmyself through that.
I know that's not nice.
You know, as my husband wouldsay, be nice to my friend, when
I'm being hard on myself.
You better be nice to my friend.
She's not best friend.

Dr. Willow (55:52):
Love Matt.

Leah (55:53):
I know, it was so sweet.
He's so right.
And so, like, I don't even knowhow much of my little interview
is in the movie.
I did look it up because Iwanted to see if I was at all
accredited in the movie to seeif I even made it in the movie.
Evidently I did.
My name is up there, but mysense my name has changed I went

(56:13):
in and edited a few of thepoints, which you're allowed to
do.
So, and that's when I noticed,oh, like Devi I think was a
pretty big player in this movieand I had no idea.
So now I wanna watch it mainlycause I wanna watch her.

Dr. Willow (56:25):
Because I wanna watch it.

Leah (56:26):
You know, when she mentioned that she knew that I
was also a part of it, then thatmade me think, oh, maybe I
really am in it.
And I don't know how much or whyshe would've ever thought of me
or remembered me.
I was also 60 pounds heavier.
I remember being reallyinsecure.
It was during a rather difficulttime around my body image
issues, which someday we'llprobably hear all about.

(56:46):
Oh my, my Little Journey.

Dr. Willow (56:49):
That's a whole podcast coming.

Leah (56:50):
Yeah.
That's a whole, that's a wholepodcast.

Dr. Willow (56:55):
Leah's journey.

Leah (56:56):
Leah's freaking journey.
So anyways, it was loaded, itwas kind of a loaded time in my
life.
And when there was a recognitionin that I was really caught off
guard.
It was just, it happened rightat the very end of the
interview.
Probably slipped most people'snotice, but obviously it didn't

(57:18):
slip mine.
It was a gulp moment.
I was just like, oh, somebodymight have seen me somewhere and
I might hate what it is, youknow?
So again, there's that likeinsecurity, that thing of going,
God, I hope I didn't make a fooloutta myself.
You know?

Dr. Willow (57:33):
What one of the beautiful things about those
moments along anyone'sevolutionary journey, and no
matter what you do, maybe you'rein the scientific realm or the
medical realm or whatever, you,those moments are the building
blocks to where you are now.
You couldn't be who you are,where you're at now with us
stepping on that particularstone at that particular time.

Leah (57:56):
You know what I wish I would've asked her about?
So if anyone has followed theNexium scandal, which was like
that whole sort of cult new agesort of cult, they ended up, it
got really big in the pressbecause they were branding some
of the girls.
And this big story got leakedand one of the head people that

(58:19):
got the guru guy arrested wasCatherine Oxenberg.
Catherine Oxenberg was the onethat was the main director and
interviewer for that movie,sexology.
So that was my firstintroduction to Katherine.
And then later on Katherine hasthis big scandal with her
daughter who's a big part ofthis cult.

(58:39):
So I really wanted to ask Deviif we had more time.
Okay.
So do you know anything, likewhat's the latest?

Dr. Willow (58:46):
You should still go ask her.

Leah (58:48):
Yeah, I should.
So there's that connection.
Oh, the other thing I thoughtwas really powerful about Devi's
messaging was the whole internalracism piece.

Dr. Willow (59:08):
Yes.
That was so powerful.
The way she spoke about thesystemic racism in our culture
and in our bodies and how it hasplayed an absolute role on such
a subconscious level.
Just really, really greatperspective and great take on

(59:33):
that.

Leah (59:35):
It really, especially for me, like I wanna start
investigating this particulartopic in relationship to
non-dualism.
And because that's where I seepart of the separation happening
between ourselves and I wannaengage a new conversation.

(59:57):
I don't know that I'm the rightone to know how to lead into
that.
So getting some support maybefrom Devi would be a good idea
because I want to be closer toall the people in my life.
I wanna find out is theresomething separating me and my
friends of color?

Dr. Willow (01:00:13):
Yeah.
In fact, she did point us towardher website where she some good
just starting places for that.

Leah (01:00:19):
I looked it up too.
And yeah, it's interesting.
It deserves a lot more researchand investigation.
And her Free Gift is reallyinteresting.
I haven't had a chance to divevery deep into it, but y'all
don't forget to download heroffer.

Dr. Willow (01:00:38):
Yeah.
Grab that Free Gift, for sure.

Leah (01:00:40):
Yeah, so thank you Devi.
Thanks for so many pieces thatyou shared.
The sweetness of who you are,the realness of who you are, the
depth of your message, yourwork.

Dr. Willow (01:00:54):
Yeah, absolutely.
And you know, the practices thatI've done with her in the past
have been really simple andextremely powerful as well.
So when you do start to diveinto her work, you'll find that
there's a real simplicity to it.
Because of all that TibetanBuddhism influence around her

(01:01:15):
work.
And that can really be uh, an, ainvitation, a deeper invitation
for anyone who's like, I don'tknow about this Tantra thing.
I'm not so sure.
You know, could be that her workis just the, temperature that
would work for you.

Leah (01:01:33):
Especially if maybe you have a habit of over
complicating things.

Dr. Willow (01:01:38):
Yeah, exactly.
There you go.
Get the simplified version.
Right, right.
We'd love to hear what itbrought up for you and you know,
what you learned from it.
Anything about that systemicracism that she spoke on.
We want to hear from you aboutthat.
So come on over to the SexReimagined Instagram account and
share with us

Leah (01:01:58):
love, love, love..

Announcer (01:02:01):
Thanks for tuning in.
If the hosts seem to know whatthey were talking about, that's
because they do.
Leah Piper is a Tantric sexmaster coach and a positive
psychology facilitator.
Dr.
Willow Brown is both a Chineseand functional medicine doctor
and a Taoist sexology teacher.
Don't forget your comments,likes, subscribes, and

(01:02:22):
suggestions matter.
Let's realize this new worldtogether.

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Devi Ward Erickson: The Egoless Orgsam - How to Heal Trauma Through Your Body's Natural Bliss | #143

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Devi Ward Erickson: The Egoless Orgsam - How to Heal Trauma Through Your Body's Natural Bliss | #143