Max Carey: Filmmaker Confession - I Thought I Knew Sex Until I Made This Documentary | #146 - The Sex Reimagined Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Leah (00:06):
Welcome to the show.
I'm Leah Piper with Dr.
Willow Brown.
We are your hosts for the SexReimagined podcast, and we're
about to dig right in.
But before we do we wanna remindyou to go ahead and hit that
subscribe button.
And while you're listening, asthoughts show up and feelings
show up, go ahead and leave uscomments.
We absolutely love that andappreciate them.

Willow (00:26):
Absolutely.
And today we have an incredibleguest, max Carey, filmmaker and
world Traveler with a passionfor exploring diverse cultures
and subcultures.
He recently completed adocumentary called Touch Kink,
which is a provocativedocumentary, delving into kink
and self-expression, and it wasso cool to chat with him about

(00:48):
the inside scoop of what helearned, you know, how his whole
life changed from doing thisdocumentary.

Leah (00:56):
So please tune in, turn on, and fall in love with Max.

Announcer (01:00):
Welcome to the Sex Reimagined Podcast, where sex is
shame-free and pleasure forward.
Let's get into the show.

Leah (01:09):
Alright.
Welcome Max to the SexReimagined podcast.

Willow (01:12):
Yeah.
We're so excited to have youhere.
I mean, you've completed thisamazing documentary on kink.
I'm so excited to hear moreabout it and and how you even
came to it.

Max (01:25):
Oh my goodness.
Um, how we, how many hours do wehave?
I know.

Willow (01:32):
Yeah.

Max (01:34):
I met a dominatrix one day.
I probably had met many before,um, but she wasn't what I
expected.
She sat down and answered mystupid questions.
You know, I'm a pretty regularguy and, and I had this idea,
this crazy idea as of what shewould be, and she wasn't any of

(01:54):
those things.
She was kind, she took her timewith me and she went through it.
I'm like, wow, there's really alot to learn from this person.
And that was the beginning ofthe trip

Willow (02:04):
Okay.
Wow.
And so did you work on thisproject with her specifically,
or did that just kind of leadyou down the path?

Max (02:11):
No, I, I did actually, in fact, um, I was working on a
bunch of other things and, uh,she was so passionate about it.
I mean, the world of kink andBDSM and sexuality in general
is, is about trust, you know,and like she really opened a lot
of doors for me.
She, she recommended people andthey got to know me.
And then one person led to twopeople, two people led to four.

(02:34):
And so, so her reference herlike, you know, this person
isn't out to,'cause there'd beena lot of projects about how
crazy people are doing all thisweird shit.
Um, and once she realized Iwasn't asking those kind of
questions, I wasn't asking, shehad literally worked on a
documentary a little earlierthat was like, how kink ruins
your life.

(02:55):
Yeah, those kind of questionsare definitely like, they're not
aiming for any kind of balance.
And my, my questions weredifferent.
My questions were genuine.
They were like, I really need tounderstand this a little bit
better.
Why?
What is it?
Like, what, why are peopleliking this?
How are they different?
And so her reference and hervouching for me kind of really

(03:17):
got the ball rolling.

Leah (03:19):
Now was this January, Sarah?
Is that how I say her name?
Okay.
Um, and I watched thedocumentary.
I really enjoyed it.
Um, it was really interesting towatch all of these creative
people, um, express themselvesand to see the relationships
that they had with theirsubmissives.

(03:39):
in particular, I really enjoyedthe dominatrix from, um, Texas,
I believe, and her little groupof submissives.
It was really interesting to seethat dynamic and how worshipful
and grateful her submissiveswere to her.
Um, it really, it was reallyquite lovely to see.

(04:02):
What were some of the things inthe making of this film that
surprised you?

Max (04:07):
Um, I mean, I always had this suspicion that everybody
thought so differently.
I mean, I knew some people aregay and some people are straight
and some people are bi.
But it is, it surprised me justhow big that human spectrum is.
You know, Briggs Myers has this,like, I know that's pop
psychology, but there's 16.
The reality is there's infinite.

Willow (04:28):
Yeah.

Max (04:30):
It's sort of this infinite thing of like things people get
turned on by and things peopleconnect with.
And I guess it maybe itshouldn't be so surprising, I
suppose,'cause we fall in lovewith different kinds of people
and sometimes our friends aresurprised or this or that.
But just the sheer magnificenceof what humans love and turns

(04:52):
them on and empowers them andthat that diversity isn't
something to be afraid of atall.
That diversity is something tobe celebrated.
And, you know, gimme two secondsto be political, but I'm, I'm
worried that like, we don'twanna compact this down to this
binary old kind of thing.
And nor should we, because thesecreative minds and these

(05:14):
beautiful people and all thesecrazy ways, they will invent the
future.
And they have, they have, name amajor invention.
It was pretty much invented by aKiki person.

Willow (05:26):
Good to know.

Leah (05:27):
Really?

Max (05:29):
Leonard, this is my next film, and

Willow (05:30):
this is sounds fascinating film.

Max (05:33):
Leonardo da Vinci arrested for Crimes Against Nature.
Okay.
Um,

Willow (05:40):
Yeah.
What does that mean?

Max (05:42):
it was just probably bi, but at that point that was
whatever it was, you know, hewas just a little bit more
open-minded than the averageflorent, or not Florentina,
'cause he was Venetian, uh, tobe more accurate.
Uh, Alan Turing, the inventor ofthe computer, you know, just.
You know, good old fashioned,you know, gay, bi, whatever,

(06:02):
and, you know, chemicallycastrated in spite of like
ending World War ii, probablyfive years faster than anything
else.
I mean,

Willow (06:09):
what about Albert

Max (06:10):
a, I mean, well, you know, I,

Willow (06:14):
know about

Max (06:14):
was thinking about that.
Einstein actually there has beenletters.
Einstein wrote letters to hiswife about basically, don't, do
not bother me.
Here are the roles that youshall do.
I think he was just really kindof, I think he was sort of like
passionately asexual.

Willow (06:29):
Yeah.

Max (06:30):
and he was very, like, that was his thing.
And he recognized, I mean, Idon't, if he was living, he, you
know, if gay was more normal, hewould've been gay.
He didn't, it wasn't about thatfor him.
He just wasn't into sex.
He was into his numbers.
He was.
Uh, uh, a fetishist for numbers.
And I honestly believe forMozart, Beethoven, there's a

(06:51):
few, oh, is it Tchaikovsky, um,killed himself.
Now, they found out he waskilled because he was gay in a
time where Russia wasn't reallydown with that, you know, and
you know, they gave him this wayout.
So, I mean, you think about someof the most brilliant minds.
I don't understand why we'retrying to like push this back
down to everyone, shall be thisor that.

(07:13):
It's not, I mean, even if you'rethe most right wing, fucking
conservative, crazy person, youshould encourage this Right.
because this is what we have.
Creativity of the mind.

Willow (07:24):
The beauty of being human is the rainbow of humans
on the planet.

Leah (07:28):
Well, also

Max (07:29):
the US military should be, should be paying for the LGBTQ
plus kind of things to get thoseideas coming, you know?

Leah (07:36):
I mean, I think also it's.
Uh, uh, I can't imagine notbeing touched by the undeni
ability of someone's pleasurewhen they are lit up and turned
on and their system opens.
I don't know what's morebeautiful than that.
And when you feel that lightshine out of somebody, it's

(07:58):
contagious.
It's beautific.
Um.
My system opens when I am in thepresence of that.
So I wanna see that kind oflight in the world.
Um, and I think as long as, andI think where the edges come
into play and things getcrunchy, kind of comes down to

(08:19):
consent.
I'm, uh, was listening to a bookcalled The Heart of Dominance
lately, and one of the thingsthat's interesting that he was
talking about is, you know, thefirst time he put a collar on
his partner with a leash andwalked her around in a public
place.
They drove four hours away tonot run into anybody that they

(08:42):
may know, and he considered isit consensual for me to do this
in front of other people whohaven't given me their consent
to wanting to see me walk mygirlfriend around on a leash.

Willow (08:55):
Hmm.

Leah (08:55):
Like you have to play these edges of what's okay to
expose people to, at what pointdo you need someone's consent to
expose them to something thatlights you up?
And I thought, I had never heardof those distinctions before.
That kind of consideration, thatkind of, um, I guess wanting to

(09:20):
protect the triggers of others.
You can only do that so muchbefore you're infringing on your
own freedom.
So,

Willow (09:27):
such a balance.

Leah (09:28):
it's a way bigger, you know, concept for me to tackle
on this show.
But I was struck with, withthat, uh,

Max (09:37):
I think it boils down to, I hope I'm not interrupting

Leah (09:40):
No, please.

Max (09:43):
I think it boils down to your community.
I mean, if you think about it,like, okay, you are showing
cleavage.
You know, there are peoplethere.
I, I'm blown away by people whohave issues with breastfeeding.
They like, you're feeding a babyand somebody can feel offended
by that.
This is everyday kind of thing.
It's like, um, so I'm in chargeof your mind and I'm just trying

(10:07):
to take care of my child.
I'm sorry, but this seems a bitridiculous.
There is this like community.
Personally, um, the more I didthis film and the more I've
explored this world, I don'tlike people that aren't kinky.
I don't like people that aren'tkink informed.
I

Willow (10:23):
Tell us why.

Leah (10:24):
us why.

Max (10:25):
know.
With those, I like to go to bigevents where everybody's like
pretty kink in form.
So if they see you, you know,with somebody on a leash or do
whatever, they're like, okay,cool.
Might not be my kink, your kink,whatever.

Willow (10:36):
a deeper sense of acceptance.
Yeah.

Max (10:39):
You know, but in the end it's just community.
So what you're, you're, you'redoing the, the universe's work
here by helping expand people'sminds.
It shouldn't be a big deal tosee, I mean, your average person
working for a corporation maynot have a literal chain around
their neck, but that tie ispretty symbolic.
You know, their suits, they'reliterally, they're owned by some

(10:59):
corporation.
That's perfectly acceptable.
Why?
What's the big deal of havingsomeone who was like, I really
want to wear the collar runway.
It's the same stuff in the end.
It's not about what's wrong orright, it's what that culture or
that little bubble that you playin is worth in some cultures,
the Germans still to this day,you know, lunch break, German

(11:20):
business guy goes to the park,takes off all his clothes, gets
completely naked, hangs out,suns himself, eats his lunch.
Completely but naked because itfeels good for him.
Put his clothes back on, goesback to the bank.
We would think that's weird, butit's normal there.
You know, just culture.
It's just what you grow up withand what you're used to.
There is no wrong or right otherthan violating people's consent.

(11:44):
That's the only for me.
That's the only thing that'swrong.

Willow (11:46):
Yeah.

Max (11:47):
if you violate someone's consent, that's wrong.
Uh, we are gonna make mistakes.
We're stupid people.
When I was a teenager, Iprobably did a lot of stupid
shit.
Um, I would like to think Iwould never do that again, and I
know better and would ask thequestions, and I have, but we
are gonna make mistakes ashumans.
But the best we can do is alwayslike, read the room, try and

(12:10):
like prepare the situation.
And the best thing is to alwaysbe in the right room.

Willow (12:15):
For you at that point in your evolution?
Right, because it's like we're,we're always evolving at
different levels and differentpaces and so yeah.
Finding, finding your place inthe world that matches the
frequency of where you're at.

Leah (12:29):
Yeah.
And if I, and if you, and, andmaking a choice within yourself,
if you could be so inspired bywhat we're talking about today,
those of you who are listeningis being the kind of person who,
um, inspires an open-mindedinclusive, um, spirit Yeah.
In the rooms that you walk intoso that people that, so that

(12:51):
more people have an ability anda chance to feel safe in, in
your presence.
I certainly endeavor to be those

Willow (12:58):
I mean, that's one of the top things I hear in the
Tantra community where peopleare stepping into it for the
first time and they're like,wow, I feel so.
Like, I can just be myself andnot be judged, you know, and
just be really authentically,um, me.
Which is so, so that's what weneed more of in the world.
So I'm curious, uh, max, likeyou've, you've created other

(13:21):
documentaries and I'm just socurious, like when you were
creating this one, how, how didit, how did it affect you
differently or more deeply?
Was there anything that youreally learned or took away
that's transformed you forever.

Max (13:38):
Um, yes, for sure.
And it's probably the same thingthat I hope audiences get from
the documentary.
You know, I'm pretty boringstraight, relatively dominant
man who was kind of surprised byall this.
And developed a huge new respectfor the, the women and the
people that thought differentlythan me.

(14:00):
And if I'm honest, I thoughtthat was a bit weird.
Even though I've had theopportunity and thought that
seems a bit okay.
Hmm.
But now I, I know these peopleand I know they're, they're
happy in that.
So the biggest change I thinkfor me was making this real, not
just, this wasn't theoreticalanymore.

(14:21):
It's like to a new country andreally getting to know the food
and getting to know the peopleand really like, wow, this is
very different than back home.
So forever, I'm forever changedby my mind opening more to the
possibilities of all of it.
And honestly, also it's likethe, the evolution you go

(14:45):
through as a human being too.
You're, you're like, you findyourself realize how much of who
I am is what I was told to be,and how much of who I am is
really what I wanna be, or thatI'm aware of.

Leah (14:55):
Mm-hmm.

Max (14:56):
Then certain things like res, you know, the kinky
community in general resonatedmore with me.
Like, oh my God, I can talkabout anything.
You know, I can like just beopen.
I say, excuse me, this may notbe your thing, but blah, blah,
blah.
I'm like, wow.
How refreshing to have this kindof conversations without going,
oh, can I say that?
Am I allowed to talk about this?
Are they gonna think I'm weird?

(15:17):
If I, there was a time when Iwas a young man where I thought,
oh my God, if I want to fingerup my bum, I must be gay.

Willow (15:23):
Right.
Yeah.

Max (15:25):
Well, if it was a guy, you wanted that or whatever, sure,
nothing wrong with that.
But if it's a hot girl that youwanted, you're probably not.
But you know, like you thinkthat you have these crazy ideas
that

Willow (15:35):
Limit.

Max (15:36):
gay, as you know.
Oh my goodness.
Only that per but.
But who do you want having dothat?
Oh, I want a hot girl.
Do it.
Or a woman do it.
Probably not.
But you know, you know, for me,I, I, I like, and I, I'm working
with a few AI companies rightnow and I'm working with, uh,
helping people understand theworld differently.
'Cause the problem right now,and even L-G-B-T-Q and Kink has

(16:01):
this, they wanna put themselvesinto these boxes.
I'm a span co.
I'm a fem dom.
I'm a sub.
I'm a rope person.
I'm a gay, I'm straight.
Humans don't fit into boxes.
We are organic in everything andit's flowing.
Sometimes you're more feminine,whatever that means to you.
You have to define what thatmeans.

(16:22):
Sometimes you're more masculine,especially more dominant.
Again, you have to define whatmeans to you and, but it, we're
organic, we're analog.
And we have to stop.
I mean, I get labels are useful.
Like, okay, you're kinky.
I'm kinky.
Great.
We can have a conversation.
But they only get you to theright city, the right
neighborhood.
It's much more nuanced and Ilove the nuance.

(16:45):
I love the, the biggest thing Ilearned, you asked, when I hear
someone describe themselves, itonly gets me to the city.
I still like, oh, I'm gonnadefine you that way.

Leah (16:57):
I It.

Max (16:58):
In the past I did define them.
Oh, you said you're this, Idefine you as that.
Now I'm like, okay, you've gotme to the city.
I still don't think, you know,let's, let's talk about life in
that city.

Leah (17:08):
Right.
How important is thedefinitions?
How important is the, how youidentify yourself versus simply
being yourself?
And, um, I, one of the thingsthat I'm struck by the kink
space is just how brave peopleare.
I.
I've noticed the bravery inmyself move that dial has moved

(17:29):
up since I became morecomfortable having conversations
and exploring those cornersinside my own psyche that light
up around taboo topics and youknow, have things that kind of
create a spark that I neverthought it would be okay to
admit.
That's been really, reallythrilling and it is vulnerable
and it's brave.

(17:50):
And I think that's a bigcontribution to what kinks
provide the world.
What other contributions do youthink the kink community is
making?

Max (18:00):
Well, building on what you just said, actually, um, when
we're a kid, kids, we, we play.
And somehow we get serious.
But what is play really?
But anything scientific, it'slike, Hey, can I do this with
you?
Can you do this with me?
And let's see how that goes.
Um, this play idea is somekinksters call it play and I

(18:22):
think it's something, it's aadult play.
Sure.
Um, but this is how we learnabout the world.
We play with ideas.
We're not machines again, we're,we play with ideas.
Oh, you wanna be dom, you wannabe sub, you wanna do this, you
wanna do that?
I wanna be, you see your, let'splay with that idea and see how
it goes.
Oh, I didn't really like, Imean, for me, the reason I have
the Big O people ask me and whytouch, touch kink has a big O

(18:46):
and partly is playing on touch.
No, but the biggest thing for meis the circle.
Because if you talk to somebody,you negotiate with somebody, you
get that consent, you do thatthing, and then you check in
with them afterwards, youcomplete a circle.
And that's doesn't have to be agood situation.
Oh, I didn't really like that atall.

(19:06):
Please never do that again.
But it's a circle.
It's experimental.
It's wonderful play.
And as adults, if we keep thatcircle going, we're lucky.
We tried X, Y, and Z and itworked or didn't work, but we
we're, we're, I'm caring aboutyou as a human being.
I have compassion for you.
I'm trying to do this right.
Um, I think it's healthy, it'shealthy experimental stuff and

(19:28):
that's the big thing for kinkfor me, you know?
Uh, whereas if you don't,conversely like, I mean, that's
it.
It's not about like you slapsomeone on the bottom if they
ask for, they want that and it'sreally part of their thing and
you've negotiated.
It's, it's great.
I.
You walk up to somebody on thestreet and do it, not so good.
It's not about the action.

Willow (19:46):
It depends on where you're walking, what street,
what city.

Max (19:48):
Exactly.
That's really like a big thing.
It's like, oh, but I could neverdo that.
Like, yeah, you shouldn't dothat with strangers and you
should have a few conversationsand organized consent, but
there's no, thou shalt never doanything.
There's just.
Do with ethics, do it withcompassion, do it with caring.
This is another human being infront of you.

(20:10):
And that's the other thing left.
I'm left with.

Leah (20:12):
I, you make a good point.
I think one of the things thatpeople who aren't familiar with
BDSM or kink, what they may notknow is that there's a structure
and a form to how people engagein this play.
There's a beginning, a middle,and an end.
There's sort of a standard be,yeah.

(20:32):
Yes, that's

Willow (20:33):
And a prereq like prerequisite forms to fill out.
Leah and I actually did a coupleepisodes on that for those of
you who wanna check that out.
Yeah.

Leah (20:44):
Yeah.
Um, and so there's, you know,you start a scene or a play with
negotiations and then youengage, you find out what
worked, you might find out whatdidn't work, you see what's
needed.
You have some aftercare, andthen you discuss, you know, what
your takeaways were.
And that's pretty standard, um,operation.

(21:05):
And then people sort of, they,they do that a number of times
with the same person.
They start to build arelationship and then that may
turn into a scene that's lasteven longer.
Uh, and I think all of that'sreally fascinating.
So for those of you who don'tknow, there's a certain kind of
form that allows for more safetyin the exploration and in the
expansion of some of theseedges, which is worth informing

(21:28):
others about.

Max (21:29):
if I could interject, this is actually probably the thing
that I, I've been to 30, 40 filmfestivals now.
My film on the big screen and,uh, you know, hundreds of people
watching and they always,there's a q and a afterwards.
I.
And, you know, invariablythey're, you know, people
putting up their hands andasking a few questions, and one
of the ones that always gets tome is like, oh, it seems a bit

(21:51):
complicated.
And my answer is always this,maybe a little, but you don't
understand the rewards.
You don't understand like, okay,maybe you're not quite as manly
as you wanna be because you'reasking her if she likes it.
Maybe you're not, whatever, but.
It pays off.
It pays off in ways you have noidea because maybe it's a little

(22:15):
awkward in the beginning, butyou form a connection and a
trust that takes you to a placethat you can't be.
So yeah, I get it.
Takes a little bit of extra timeto go, I would like to do this
with you.
I wanna like, ooh, you know, andshe, and well, she might just go

Leah (22:32):
Mm-hmm.

Max (22:32):
or he or whatever, you know, and, and you know,
whatever.
But that extra bit of time aboutexplicitly saying what you're
into.
What you want and that extralittle bit of time to find out,
well actually I'm up toeverything except for I'd rather
you just do this.
Not that cool.
I'm happy with that, but notthis.

(22:53):
No problem.
It makes this incredibly so, itmight seem a bit complicated for
some people, but I assure youlearning the circle of just
talking, being open-minded topeople, um, letting them really
have that chance, then gettingthat clear consent and doing it.
It rewards you in ways you couldnot imagine.

(23:15):
You'll have sex, you'll haverelationships, you'll have
experiences beyond what youwould've had just by doing the
whole i'm gonna make a bunch ofassumptions about you and see
how it goes.

Willow (23:24):
It's like that old adage, good fences make good
neighbors.
And when we know where ourboundaries are, we have more
room to explore the edges ofthose boundaries when we know
that we can trust the other tohold those boundaries for us and
with us.
Um, then we were able to push upagainst those edges and push,

(23:45):
push up against those boundarieswithin, which takes us deeper
into that place inside ofourselves where we get to go a
little bit further than we thinkwe are available to or able to.
Um.
I think that that is one of themost beautiful things of any
sexual sexual exploration wherethere's a conversation that
happens beforehand wherethere's, you know, here, here's

(24:08):
what I'm available for, here'swhat I'm not available for.
And it's like, and then when weget right up against those
boundaries and those edges andwe push them just a little bit
within that session that we setup with boundaries.
It's sexy, it's hot.
It's like, ooh, we're breakingsome rules.
We're pushing the boundaries alittle bit, you know, doing
things that we said, Ooh, we maynot be able to do.

(24:30):
So.
It can create a lot more erosand a lot more arousal within
your system because your brainis, um, expanding what, what it
said it was able to expand into.

Leah (24:45):
Well, you're also leaning into part of the transgressive
elements that are really hot,you know, and, and we tend to, I
think in the vanilla world, denythat those things are really
hot.
That boundary pushing has a lotof sexual arousal oftentimes
connected to it.
And when you do it in a placethat you can trust, um, which is

(25:07):
why I think safe wordss are alsosuch a great thing is being able
to play with that and havingcommunication that isn't filled
with words and sentences to beable to play with those edges.
The other thing I think justthat I believe this could
contribute to the vanilla worldand I'm not using, uh, the word
vanilla is if that's a badthing.
I think vanilla is delicious.

(25:29):
I think we should all enjoyvanilla and add whatever
toppings we want to it to makeit even more interesting.
Um.
But here's where I think a partof that, the thing that the kink
world could really bring valueto the vanilla world is by
having those conversations,people get to explore their
desires.

(25:49):
And desires are oftentimes formany of us, hard to name access,
give words to be vulnerablewith.
It's scary, and for a lot ofpeople, I think a lot of women
in particular, we haven't beengiven permission to own those
desires, express those desires,ask for those desires to be
fulfilled, pursue those

Willow (26:11):
Even know what they are.

Leah (26:12):
Even know what they are.
And so to be able to play withscenes or to have sort of this
idea of play in, even if youwould never explore kink, you
know, or fetishes or you know,impact play or BDSM or any of
those elements.
To be able to have a coconversation with your lover

(26:33):
where you feel safe and you are,you are provided with prompts
that allow you to discover thatsuch a huge gift.
I think everyone would be havingbetter sex and having more
successful and fulfilling

Willow (26:46):
More intimacy.
Yeah,

Leah (26:48):
Yeah.

Max (26:50):
I.
I get myself in troublesometimes with the kink
community.
'cause I actually wonder if kinkis a thing.
'cause everybody likes what theylike.
I mean, I

Willow (26:58):
yeah.
Like what is it really?
Yeah.

Max (27:00):
Everybody wants to label themselves.
I'm gay, I'm straight, I'm kink,I'm this, I'm that.
But again, I don't think we'reanything.
I think we just like what we,like,

Willow (27:08):
I love that perspective.
Yes.

Max (27:11):
Boiled around to three things.
Three things we like what welike.
At that moment, we seeourselves, how we see ourselves
at that moment, and we want whatwe want at that moment.
That's all that matters.
Maybe it's, and I'm submissiveand I want humiliation.
Maybe it's I am dominant and,uh, once you're whatever.
And I'm one orga, I mean, butthat's it.

(27:34):
Stop fucking labeling.
Excuse me.
I dunno.

Willow (27:36):
Of course it's a,

Leah (27:37):
say whatever you want.

Max (27:41):
a little bit sad and I get the world we live in.
It's a little bit more politicaland everybody wants to fall in
politics, but sometimes we'relosing ourselves on that.

Willow (27:48):
Mm-hmm.

Leah (27:49):
I,

Max (27:49):
you know, ES Esther Perel had a you, I'm sure you've read
mating in captivity, but one ofthe best lines she had was
something along the lines thathumans will often be aroused by
the same thing that they protestagainst during the day.

Willow (28:04):
Yeah, absolutely.

Max (28:08):
Not, you know, equal rights for women.
I support feminism, I supportnow you're girl.
You get down on your whatever,

Leah (28:15):
Yes.

Max (28:16):
you know, like whatever.
Exactly.
You know, like

Leah (28:19):
Dirty little slut.
Yes.

Max (28:20):
Whatever.
I mean, and the thing thatpeople have the hardest problem
with, and this is anothermessage to my film, another
message I would love people torealize.
Don't feel bad about the factthat you're two people at least,
you're probably more than that,but you can be a good mother, a
good father, a PTA member, thethe one that you know has the

(28:41):
best record for picking theirkid up at school.
And you could be somethingcompletely.
You'd be the dominatrix thatlikes to, you know, that's not a
contradiction.
Some people think it is, they'reonly gonna remember you from the
most salacious bit.
Oh my goodness.
you find out the PTA leader is adominatrix?

(29:02):
Who the fuck, who the, whocares?
Is she a good PTA, whatever?
But right now we want thesalacious bit and we don't
recognize as humans.
We have a public thing.
I always say to people like, youknow, in, in Canada and the
state, would I go with someone'shome I take off my shoes.
Other places, you don't take offyour shoes in certain parts of

(29:23):
the world.
After a good meal, you'resupposed to burp out loud.
You know, I'm a polite humanbeing.
If I'm in a place where at themeal I'm supposed to burp,
there's places you're actuallysupposed to be fart out loud.
A couple countries where you'reliterally after

Willow (29:35):
Which countries are those?
I'm going, that's my kink.

Max (29:42):
T, but you know, I respect the culture.
If I'm in a public situation,I'm supposed to bring an orange
or bring an orange.
I'm supposed to bring a bottleof wine or bring a bottle of
wine.
I'm supposed to, you know,that's your public cue.
You know, if we're friends andwe're more intimate, then we can
do that part, but it's okay tobe two people.
And in fact, I think it's better

Leah (30:02):
Well,

Willow (30:03):
More than two.
I think you said that at thebeginning.
Right?
There's just, there's so manyfacets to every single person
and

Max (30:09):
public and private is kind of

Willow (30:11):
and private.
I love that.
Yeah.

Max (30:13):
and private.
Private can be, you know, andyour public can be, you know,
both of them kind of beinfinite, but there's a public
polite person that takes theirshoes off and brings you a
bottle of wine and says, thankyou for inviting me to dinner.
And there's private, so do likespanking maybe like we're
having, oh, you don't want this,you know, whatever.
You know, like, and you know, asfriends you get to know the

(30:35):
private person, you know, and,but you don't just'cause their
private desires might besalacious or unusual you didn't,
you don't wanna define them bythat.
You know?
That's my

Willow (30:47):
I, I love it.
I love that point.
I, this is a little not on yourpoint, but maybe it is.
Why, why did you decide to namethe documentary Touch Kink?

Max (30:58):
Um, touch was the play on the spectrum.
Like I kept seeing everything aslike this organic wave and, uh,
you know, we like pleasure, butfor better or for worse, whether
we wanna admit it or not.
Pain gives pleasure a biggersense.

(31:20):
The sadnesses give happiness abigger sense.
Like if you would, I mean, I'vemet a lot of rich people that
had like everything given tothem and they got everything
could possibly imagined life.
They're, they're depressed.
Why?
'cause they never suffered atall.
They never had that baseline oflike, having to struggle in
life.

Willow (31:34):
They never became resilient and strong inside of
themselves.

Max (31:38):
Well, it, I don't put it, you know what, I don't even, I
don't even put it that, I thinkit's even more simple.
Everything is a wave.
There's the bottom of your wave.
Your bottom of your wave is it'sa boring day and I have
everything top of your wave islike I'm meeting the prince now
and doing whatever.
This is a normal day that mostfor normal people is the bottom
of your line.

(31:58):
We need both sides.
You know, I always try this,friends that get depressed or I
promise like I know it sucks andI know you don't think you're
gonna get past this, and I knowyou're feeling like, oh my God.
There's only one solace I cangive you is that this bottom is
going to be the line.
That you'll, there'll be apleasure coming.

(32:20):
There'll be something beautifulcoming in your life that will be
so amazing that this gave it thebottom.
It, it's this just how we work.
And it's biochemical.
It's literally, I mean, this isnot me, this is science.
Your, your, your brain gets usedto certain biochemical levels
and when this is the worst thingthat happens to you, that's the
worst thing that happens to you.
This is the be, and that's,that's your little thing.

(32:42):
Whereas if it's bigger and moredynamic or you explore bigger
and whatever, it's bigger.
And just the way humans work andyou know, you, we, I actually
think personally that we areliving an amazing world.
Even the worst thing, a lot ofthe worst things that happen,
well, okay, you lost your job,you got don't have any money.
You gotta eat rice for a littlewhile.

(33:03):
My god, it's not really the endof the world.
The end of the world if you'relike getting bombed or some,
something horrible like that.
But a lot of things people thinkare like, oh my god, my
boyfriend, girlfriend, whateverleft me.
I'm never, you know,comparatively speaking, I don't
know.
I just think that it'sbiochemical and we, we go up and

(33:23):
down.
So, uh, to make it more simple,it's, it's okay to feel what we
feel and even the, the bad stuffleads to good stuff and we
should.
Want that wave that goes up anddown.
'cause that's how

Willow (33:38):
Yeah.
And I think that, you know,bypassing the emotions that come
with those down waves isactually, creates a resistance
inside of your system and yourlife that, you know, attracts
those down waves to you evenmore.
So, I, I feel like what, whatyou're talking about is really
like riding the waves, ridingthese, surfing these waves of,

(33:59):
of life and the emotions thatcome with them, um, and how that
you kind of, it, it grows youinto a more, um, whole version
of yourself or a more evolvedversion of yourself.
And it's never ending.
We get to ride these waves tillthe day we die.

Max (34:19):
we should and to, to recognize them.
As something that will pass torecognize them is this isn't the
first time and won't be thelast.

Leah (34:29):
Right.

Max (34:29):
And you actually in, in some way, there's a reward to
it.
I know it's hard, like in thatmoment I feel that sometimes
myself, I'm a little bit thisway myself sometimes everybody
like up and down.
Um, but to recognize and go,okay, but to recognize, okay,
this is, you know, not feelinggreat right now, but I know it

(34:50):
will change.

Willow (34:51):
Yeah.
And then there's something sweetabout going into the feeling of
it when you know behind thatfeeling that that, that it's not
gonna last, that it's gonnashift and change, and you'll get
through it.

Leah (35:02):
Well, if I can go, just go back to making a bridge with the
whole identity part is, I thinksometimes we over identify with
our suffering or we overidentify with our bliss and
it's, I think more usefulactually to just hold everything
gently.
I.
And go.
And this too will come again.

(35:22):
The sadness and the grief willcome again.
The joy and the bliss will comeagain.
And can we actually challengeourselves to learn to be a lover
of reality regardless of thestate that we're in, is to go,
you know, here in my pain and inmy suffering is something to be
present to, there's something inhere for me.

(35:44):
How can I not rush thisexperience but actually learn to
love the reality of thisexperience?
Much harder to do than when youhave the opportunity to love the
reality when you're at a peakstate and things are feeling
really great and reallyconnected and you don't feel
separate.
I think from an non-dualisticperspective, the opportunity is
to not feel the separation whenyou're actually in the bottom of

(36:09):
the wave.
I.
When you're feeling a sense ofloneliness, isolation, or
suffering, to again, hold itgently and to realize that we're
over identifying in that momentand we are becoming separate
instead of realizing that we'reactually not separate, that
there's a spiritual opportunityin those moments to go.
Um.

(36:29):
I'm believing a story ofseparateness and isolation

Willow (36:33):
where's your kink in

Leah (36:34):
my perspective.
Right, right.

Willow (36:36):
joy?
Yeah.
How are you getting off on that?
Especially if it's a chronicthing that you do, like you must
be enjoying it on some level.
Yeah.

Max (36:45):
Well, you know, there are, there are people that have kinks
that I do think are a littleself-destructive, where they're,
they're reliving particularlybad moments of their

Willow (36:53):
Mm-hmm.

Max (36:54):
I think I, I completely agree with what you're saying
and I think that's like the, thegold standard of how people
should think about it.
The reality is we think the waywe think.
You asked me earlier about whatI learned from kink and the
biggest thing I learned is thatI didn't know anything.
That, everything that I thoughtabout the world, that I thought,
this is how men behave, this ishow women behave, this is how

(37:14):
the world works.
And I was pretty sure of it wasall bullshit.

Willow (37:19):
That's a big thing to learn,

Max (37:22):
It was to learn, it was a bit earth shattering actually,
because I was fairly confident Ihad the world dialed.
Um, you know, give that up inthe end.
It's your personality too, solike what you said is the, the
gold standard.
We should all go to that.
But you know, depending on wherewe grew up and how we grew up
and

Leah (37:41):
Well, our conditioning comes into fuck all that great
philosophy up.

Willow (37:46):
We need to kink condition to uncondition.

Leah (37:49):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
All bets are off and we, andit's kind of an allusion to
think we've got much control.

Willow (37:57):
Yeah.
Yeah.

Leah (37:58):
but here's another interesting just to throw in
another angle into all of this.
It's just taking a look at ourreaching for dopamine, it's like
getting that hit of that feelgood and, and really starting to
take a look at how much we areburning ourselves out on
dopamine.
And that actually disrupts ourresilience.
It disrupts our overallsatisfaction that we actually

(38:19):
need to allow ourselves topursue hard things and to delay
instant gratification becausethen the payoff of when we do
get to have a high has, um, it'sa much more rewarding
experience.
There's a lot of things comingout right now about the chase of
these dopamine hits and, andreaching for more and more and

(38:41):
more instead of sort of beingwith the discipline.
And in our culture noweverything is at our fingertips
and things are more and moreconvenient than ever before.
I mean, I leave the house.
Barely ever anymore, like preCOVID, I was out and about all
the time.
Now I have to actually remindmyself, no, go

Willow (39:02):
Get out of the house.

Leah (39:03):
get the groceries, don't get them delivered.
Um.
So we're, there's an interestingthing around comfort that plays
into all of this and our desireto wanna just stay comfortable.
And I think this is where, sortof the interesting part, I think
back to kink and playing withthese Edges of sensation and

(39:25):
these psychological corners thatmay feel a little more taboo and
dark and transgressive can bevery interesting.
It's because much of it isuncomfortable and it's in that
discomfort that there's aninteresting payoff.
There's an interesting reward.
You're doing something that maybe uncomfortable and hard for

(39:46):
you, and some of that is in thedevotional pursuit of someone
else's pleasure.
You know, as I play with anuncomfortable expression of my
inner dom, like that doesn'tfeel supernatural to me right
now, but I'm pushing myself intothose edges because the reward
of witnessing someone'ssubmission to me is so beautific

(40:10):
that I wanna get better at thatarchetype, even though I'm much
more natural submissive than I aDom.
I wanna play in theseplaygrounds.
Um, how has your journey beenwith your own level of
discomfort and maybe difficultconversations or vulnerable

(40:30):
conversations?
Have you been present to that asyou've sort of explored your own
depths?

Max (40:36):
Um, I suppose, um, if I'm thinking about it, it's like I,
I think I'm very slow at like,evolving, so it kind of like, I
just asked a lot of questions,got all information.
'cause when I did, it didn'treally seem like that big of an
evolution.
It's, um, I've been very blessedin my life.

(40:58):
I, I spent 18 years travelingthe world, living 137 countries
and I

Leah (41:04):
wait.
You've lived in 137 countries.
Holy.
How old are you?
How does woman even have time tolive in that many?

Max (41:12):
old enough, old enough, but.

Leah (41:14):
Wow.
Cool.

Max (41:20):
Different people have different ideas.
What what's important.
And it's not just like you mightgrow up in one culture and thou
shall be like this and thoushall be like that.
Um, but there's a lot of placeswhere it ain't that way.
They have completely differentideas.
And when you start gettingexposed that you realize that
there is no fundamental truth.

(41:40):
So I think being exposed to thatvariety, um, I just became
really, really open-minded toeverything and I'm uh, it just
became sort of natural, youknow.
Getting that chance to explore.
And again, why I love the kinkcommunity is that you meet
someone, you connect withsomebody that wants to connect
with you, and you, you, youperform some sort of KY

(42:03):
experiment.
You know, let's try this.
I never tried this, but withyou, I'd like to maybe do some X
if you wanna do some Y and let'ssee how that goes.
And, you know,

Willow (42:15):
Yeah, the possibilities are really limitless.
It's, it's incredible to hearpeople saying, oh, we have a
boring sex life.
I'm like, wow, there's so manythings to play with and try and
do.

Leah (42:26):
Well, I think that like really highlights that there's
also is an, there's an artistryto all of this.
There's a high art and a senseof creativity that I think, um,
going outside of the box isreally, really valuable.
You know, and I think that whenwe see where art is suppressed,

(42:46):
we have a culture that thrivesless.
When we see art that isexplored, we have ideas and
conversations, and we getexposed to things that that can
change our minds and open ourminds and open our hearts, and
yeah, that's the world I wannalive in.

Willow (42:59):
Yeah, I mean, sexual.

Max (43:00):
broad, in a broader sense, this is why we, you need to
support the arts.
This is why we need to supportdiversity.
Even the most conservativepeople in the world should see
the beauty in that because bysupporting the arts, by
supporting diversity orsupporting ideas, and you may
not have known that you like X,Y, and Z.
Never even heard about it.
And some days somebody, one ofthe most amazing stories, and I

(43:23):
wish I had this in my film, Imet a couple, they were late
thirties, and I met'em at a kinkparty and uh, had it in and
talked to them.
Turns out, um, they were, youknow, high school sweethearts,
you know, met at 16, gotmarried, 18, divorced at 21.
He was the quarterback, she wasthe cheerleader, all American

(43:44):
kind of classic story.
And fast forward all theseyears.
He could never bring himself tosay that he wanted to be
submissive, that he wanted tosort of be submissive to her and
more amazingly, she could neverbring herself to say she wanted
to be dominant to him.
So they got divorced.

Willow (44:06):
Wow.

Max (44:07):
All these years later at a kink party, realizing they were
perfect from each other, foreach other.
They could have just thebravery.

Willow (44:14):
an amazing story.

Max (44:15):
To be who they're, but neither of them at that moment
had the words or feltcomfortable enough, you know,
Hey, I'm the quarterback, I'mthe cheerleader.
There's these ideas of what thatis, and they didn't make it.
And, but then they, you know,met each other many years later
and they're happier now thanthey could ever be.

Willow (44:34):
That's amazing.

Max (44:35):
really.
There wasn't the, there wa therewasn't the concepts.
Hey, when I was a kid, polyamorydidn't exist.
I'd never heard that word.
We cheated.
You know, gender fluid orfluidity of like sexual, no,
you're, you're straight.
You're a even bio biased butweird.
You can be gay.
That's okay.
I get gay, I get straight.

(44:55):
But you know, everything had tobe so like, we didn't have the
words.
You know, so in the end art andwhat you're doing and letting
people just know these thingsexist, give them kind of like,
there's this thing that, as Isay, my, my big thing is just
stop thinking about labelingyourself.
Think about things in terms ofmore fluid and more like

(45:19):
spectrums.
Maybe you're 99% the biggest,baddest guy in the world, or
this or that, but nothing is ahundred percent.
Lindsay did this in the fifties.
There's like 5% that are gay or5% of the straight.
Everybody else is pretty much inthe middle if they're honest,
but somehow we kind of didn'treally follow that lesson.
But, you know, this is howhumans are.

(45:40):
So like, just having the wordsand having the permission to
talk about these things, andeven knowing they exist.
He, he, you know, this guy thathe didn't know what it was,

Willow (45:50):
Right.
Didn't know how to talk aboutit.
Yeah.
Uhhuh.

Max (45:56):
He wanted her to tell him what to do.

Willow (45:59):
Uhhuh.

Max (45:59):
He didn't have probably have the word submission or
slave or whatever.
He just like, I just really likeit when she's kind of a bit
bossy.

Willow (46:07):
Right, right, right.
Were there, were there any otherthings that you left out of the
documentary for any that youlike, wish you could have kept
in or, or you, or you left themout'cause there was a little, it
was a little too edgy oranything juicy.
You could tell us

Max (46:23):
Lots, lots, lots too many.
Um, there's some, there's somefootage of, uh, I, I met Faki
Mussar who is the, the, thegrandfather of body
modification.
And he had this amazing thingabout energy and how the world
is, and he's happy, like he's,he's passed now.
I think I had the last interviewwith him, which is why I will
let it go, let it into the worldat some point.

(46:44):
But just how he was very muchabout that.
For him.
It wasn't about.
Male, female, this, that, it wasall just energetic.

Leah (46:50):
I love that.

Max (46:51):
And he, he knew that from the fifties, you know, that it
was just, he was, he knew whathe was, he didn't, you know, now
they probably call him queer, orthis or that.
Um, but it just, there wasn'twords for it.
It just, for him, he just says,I have an energy.
This is my energy.
And I, you know, and that wasthe words at the times, just.
That I love to do and even that,like I, you know, my film showed

(47:14):
at a few L-G-B-T-Q events andI'm always amazed when I see
like everybody's now queer and Ithink it's right.
It's like nobody says they'regay or straight anymore.
Everybody's queer.
And I think that's more honestbecause we're all kind of like,
we like what we'd like and maybeit'll change if I meet the right
guy.
Maybe suddenly I'll find myselfwith a guy.
Uh, never been, but I'm notsaying no, you know, the pretty,

(47:34):
you know, whatever, you know,it's like, but not being so
stuck in all those kind ofthings.
So I, I like this kind of queerthing about just being kind of,
I'm just gonna be who I am whenI am with who I am and see how
it goes.

Willow (47:44):
Mm-hmm.

Leah (47:45):
How,

Max (47:45):
I think he was kind of the grandfather of that to some
extent.

Leah (47:49):
can people watch the documentary?
How can they find

Max (47:51):
Uh, touch kink.com.
Uh, we'll take you to, it'll beon Apple and, uh, Amazon shortly
as well.
I prefer,'cause they're a indiefilm platform that frankly pays
me more money than most, uh, youknow, it's very expensive to
make.
Yeah, it's, uh, kin,K-I-N-E-M-A.
But if you go to touch kink,touch kink.com, there's links to

(48:14):
it.

Leah (48:15):
great.

Max (48:16):
There's a lot.
The big, I mean, I was shocked.
I got my sadly refusal letterfrom, uh, Sundance, uh, about
six months ago.
And I was shocked to find that14,000 films were submitted to
Sundance last

Willow (48:30):
Wow.

Max (48:31):
14,000 of which 25 were

Willow (48:33):
Wow.

Max (48:34):
I'm like 14, 14,000 films got made.
I feel like, seems like a lot ofwork.
And of those 25 films, you know,how many actually made money
last year?

Leah (48:43):
Oh, how many?
Five.
Oh my God.
Zero.
Wow.
That's sad.

Max (48:48):
Now, the new thing is like, and this is what I'm doing, my
next project, is you gotta buildyour audience as you're going.
I mean, I made a okay, I madesome money because I collected
email addresses from the

Willow (49:00):
Uh,

Max (49:01):
and the day it was released, I sent 20,000 people.
Here it comes and, and a lot ofpeople paid 20 bucks to see it
the day that I released it.
And if it wasn't for that, Iwould probably be in bankruptcy
and I still might actually go tobankruptcy.
But hey, uh,

Willow (49:14):
So all you listening out there, pay for the documentary,
give them 20 bucks.

Leah (49:20):
Yeah.
Now

Max (49:23):
is very like, and this is the new wave.
You're an independent filmmaker.
You need to be building.
Unless, I mean, people spendmore money, there's more money
spent on promoting Hollywoodfilms than there isn't making
them.
So unless you're gonna ready tospend a hundred million dollars
on promoting it.
You better you know?
So you've gotta, like, if youcan't put a bunch of money aside

(49:43):
for promoting it, you need tomake sure that your audience,
and if you can't build anaudience, if you can't get
20,000 people that say that theywanna see your film when it's
done, it's signed up fromnewsletter or signed up for
like, please let me know whenyour film's available.
Don't make the

Willow (49:57):
Mm mm How'd you get into filmmaking to begin with?

Max (50:03):
It's funny, I, I started very early.
I'm, I'm, I can't even reallyfind out how old I am.
Uh, I worked on the XFiles inJump Street.

Willow (50:10):
Wow.

Max (50:10):
that as production.
Yeah.
I, uh, I owned a productioncompany, uh, that we did film
here.
This thing film.
It's like

Willow (50:18):
Real film.

Max (50:19):
film.

Leah (50:19):
Uh, yeah.

Max (50:20):
Yeah, I had a lab, I had a film lab.
Um, so yeah, it was just, uh, 14years old.
I got a job as a photographer.
I loved the camera.
Then just natural evolution tofilm.
I'm essentially a pretty, I knowyou'll be shocked, but I'm
essentially a pretty shy guy.
The camera was always my, um,I'm here.
I camera.
Well, I can speak to you now.

(50:40):
Oh, I can talk to you becauseI'm, I'm, it's not just me.
I'm, I've got a camera here andI, I, I guess I needed that.
I, I, I still to this day, likeI i'm talking to somebody
without a camera, I feel alittle bit more shy, but with a
camera, it's like, well, I'msupposed to be here.
Let me, so tell me what you hadfor breakfast yesterday, you
know, what was the, what wasyour last sexual experience?

(51:02):
You know, like I, I, I feel likea different person.
So the, the camera was alwaysmy, like, passport to the world.
Uh, so yeah, 18, 19, I ended upgetting into post-production in
Vancouver.
Luckily the film industry becamea big thing and we had Jump
Street and X-Files and she gotvery lucky actually.

Willow (51:19):
hmm.

Leah (51:19):
Cool.

Max (51:20):
uh, yeah, the die was cast.
I mainly worked in, um, behindthe scenes, like, uh,
production.
I always wanted to be adirector, but I always say never
would be crazy enough to be,there's no, there's no money in
being the architect, but the guythat built the building always
gets paid.
The architect can get paid, butmore often than not, architects
don't get

Willow (51:37):
Mm-hmm.

Max (51:38):
Uh, but the guy that did the plumbing always got paid so.

Leah (51:42):
I get the.

Willow (51:44):
Mm-hmm.

Leah (51:45):
You know, in, in closing, one of the things that I really
loved about your film was thecredits and how you gave us a
peek into the people's lives whowere featured on the film and
where they are today.
And, and where, what ended uphappening, right?
Like there was a little snippeton many of the leads and I was

(52:07):
really sad and really stunned tohear about January's suicide.
Um, it really struck a, a chord.
I thought it was so tasteful,the tribute and the way that you
honored her in her life.
And, um, I just wanted to thankyou for that.
I thought it was a reallybeautiful and kind of startling

(52:29):
end to the film.

Max (52:30):
I didn't wanna make it about that, you know?
And.

Leah (52:33):
And you felt that, you felt that at the end that what
we were celebrating by watchingthat film was her life.
And there was honesty at the endby sharing what happened
tastefully, and that was like atribute to her.
Um, and I really appreciatedthat the film wasn't about that.

Max (52:52):
Yeah, no, I, yeah, probably would've made a lot more money
if I'd made it about that, but,uh, no, I was never gonna do
that.

Leah (52:57):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um.
Thank you so much for being here

Willow (53:02):
Yeah, what a pleasure.
What an honor.
Great to hear.
Hear the inside scoop of it all.

Leah (53:08):
Yeah,

Max (53:09):
kink.com.
Check it out.
Buy a ticket.

Willow (53:11):
yes, yes.
Buy a ticket

Leah (53:14):
All right folks.
That is, uh, not all.
Please stay

Willow (53:19):
for the

Leah (53:20):
Willow and I will always dish it up.

Max (53:23):
Cool.
I was like, say

Willow (53:25):
Nama.

Max (53:26):
namaste.

Willow (53:27):
Nama.

Leah (53:31):
That's right.
That's right.

Willow (53:34):
Thank you, max.

Announcer (53:36):
Now our favorite part, the dish.

Willow (53:40):
Documentaries on kink, bring them on.
Let's share it with the world.
I loved, um, just chatting withMax.
I thought he was, I love how heis so like humble.
He is like, I'm just a normalguy.
You know, he said that a fewtimes.
It was cute.
And just what he kind of, youknow, brought all his expertise
and his life's work to, to, uh,showcase the possibilities in

(54:05):
sexuality.

Leah (54:07):
Yeah, he didn't get into too much of it, but I felt, I
wondered what his relationshipwith January.

Willow (54:13):
Mm,

Leah (54:14):
Was, it sounds like she was sort of his initiation into
exploring this.
Um, would've been fun to hearmore about that, but I also
wasn't sure if it was okay toask

Willow (54:24):
wanna poke about his personal sex

Leah (54:26):
I guess so I guess, uh, normally I don't have a problem
with

Willow (54:30):
I know.
What, what happened?
Yeah.

Leah (54:32):
kind of feel when people may be, you know, I, I guess
there are certain questions thatI ask that if people give me in
those, it will lead me to askmore

Willow (54:41):
More personal

Leah (54:42):
And I didn't feel like I was always getting like as much.

Willow (54:46):
opening.

Leah (54:46):
Yeah.

Willow (54:47):
Yeah.

Leah (54:48):
sure.
That's what I was responding to.
Uh, one of the takeaways for methat I really liked was this
message of like, thisidentifications that people.
I think it really stuck on, andI almost feel like it's an ego
identity.
It's like a way to make themmake ourselves special is if we
can claim a label as

Willow (55:09):
I'm a, I'm a pro dom, or I'm a this, or I'm

Leah (55:12):
Yeah.
or.
I'm this gender or that gender,or I'm this, this is my
sexuality and this isn't mysexuality.
I can see why maybe it'simportant, you know, for being
able to figure oneself out

Willow (55:24):
it could be important for like bringing a certain
level of confidence forwardinside of yourself, but then,
then you can evolve beyond thatand just be like, I'm just here.
I'm just, this is what I'm intoin this moment.
Yeah.
It was really great the way hebroke that down.
Like people are just people,they like what they like in the

Leah (55:39):
like what we like when we like it, and oh, by the way,
permission to change our mindsor to change our feelings, or to
change our truth, you know, likeit's not permanent.
And I think it evolves as we getolder.
You know, we

Willow (55:52):
mature.
Yeah.

Leah (55:53):
the things that I identified myself within my
twenties are completelydifferent than how I look at
them in my forties, you

Willow (56:00):
Thank God.
I mean, we shouldn't be thinkingthe same thing we were thinking
in our teens as we are later,you

Leah (56:07):
Yeah, So, I guess it's just like a message of don't
take yourself so seriously.

Willow (56:12):
seriously.

Leah (56:14):
gonna shift and change and, and including like, don't
always take sex so seriously.
Like, choose to be curious andlighthearted.
And when you notice a judgment,you know, we've said it so many
times on the show, we'llcontinue to say it.
Like, be

Willow (56:28):
Get

Leah (56:28):
about that judgment.
You know, get a, get a littledeeper with that.

Willow (56:32):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and, and, you know, youknow, sex Reimagined is, that's
our brand and our name, andwe're on a mission to help
people reimagine what ispossible inside of the sector of
sexuality in life.
It's not always, you know, whatwe grow up learning.
And so I feel like thisdocumentary is really a

(56:52):
beautiful opportunity for all ofus to just open our minds and
our imagination to what elsecould be on the plate, even if
we don't act it out.
Leah's said this a a thousandtimes on the podcast, like you
can, you can have a desire, youcan have a scene or a scenario

(57:13):
in your head and you can shareit verbally.
You can go that far and justexpress it, and that's gonna
turn the arousal scale way up.
But you don't have to act itout.
Even though it's a desire, yourmind gets turned on by, it
doesn't mean you ever have toplay it out in life.
Maybe you know, you, you are alittle bit curious about, gosh,

(57:34):
what would that be like to beled around on a collar in
public?
You know, like there's a littlecuriosity there, but does it
mean that you have to do it?
No.

Leah (57:44):
You know, one of the things, you know how like
sometimes uh, you drive by anaccident and you don't wanna
look, but you can't help butlook, you know, it's kind of
like me and how much I like truecrime, you know, like I love
hearing about serial killers,you know, it's like if I give
other people nightmares, but itfascinates me.
It's like, again, it's one ofthose examples of like.

(58:04):
You don't wanna look what youwanna look, you can't not look.
So the documentary was a littlebit like that sometimes for me.
Um, yeah, it was reallyinteresting.
So he went to a conference andone thing that's really cool
about sort of these conferencesis people dress up.
So again, it kind of brings likethis creative high theater thing
to it all again.

(58:24):
And I, and I was so, like, Ididn't know how to relate to
this one scene, which I alsothought was so interesting.
It makes me wanna like meetpeople who have a lot of get off
in this because I don't, I don'tquite understand it yet.
It's like, huh.
So it was a bunch of peoplepretending to be ponies.
And they were like trotting,right?

(58:45):
They were on their two legs andthey were trotting, and they had
these like little hooves ontheir, some of them had like
hooves on their palms.
So they had, you know, and youcan't, for those of you who
aren't watching but arelistening, um, I'm kind of
acting out how they were.
Yeah.
And they were all hooked.
to each other, to other, theywere galloping in a circle and

(59:05):
their doms were, um, had theircrops and was, you know,
spanking them.
to keep going.
And if you've ever read TheBeauty and the Beast Series by
and Anne Rice, so it's like allKinky beauty BDSM uh, at first
it was, I've read all of herbooks.
And then I got to the Beauty theBeast series and I, I couldn't

(59:28):
go any further than like thefirst five chapters.
I set it down for like fouryears and I recently read it.
'cause now I've like built

Willow (59:38):
Yeah.
You've built your capacity.

Leah (59:40):
yeah, yeah.
I built my threshold and it wasreally interesting because she
had a whole stable and itstarted to make me go, oh,
here's the bridge.
So I'd watched the documentaryand I watched the scene with
everyone pretending to be poniesand going, huh.
Like, huh?
Right.
Like some of them have like buttplugs with the horse tail and
everything and the whole nineyards.
They're all dressed up.

(01:00:00):
I'm like, I don't understand theget off in this.
But then I read the Anne Ricebook and she's talking about
from the submissive and the domwhat these ponies are doing and
how they're actually drawing acarriage.
And it really just, then I waslike, oh,

Willow (01:00:17):
I don't get it.
I'm not with

Leah (01:00:19):
I don't even know that I can explain it to you other
than, oh my God, like there's awhole

Willow (01:00:25):
It clicked for you.
Yeah.

Leah (01:00:26):
It clicked it.
It helped me understand the why,even though I can't, like.
Tell you the why.

Willow (01:00:31):
All articulate it.

Leah (01:00:32):
You have to read it.
You have to watch other people.
You have to observe it.
This is what I think is sointeresting is that this thing
that makes us go, huh?
Like I don't get it.
And then you are exposed or youhave a conversation or you read
something and you're able to getinto the heart and the mind of
someone who does understand itand who has some get off in it.

(01:00:52):
And even though I didn't haveget off on it, once I read Ann
Rice's words, it built a bridge.
And I just wanna, I guess whatmy point in saying to all of
this is help us build bridgespeople.

Willow (01:01:05):
Okay.
Read.
Read some Ann Rice and watchTouch Kink.
Yo.

Leah (01:01:10):
watch, touch kink.
And then let us know yourthoughts.
Have a beautiful

Willow (01:01:14):
love.
I.

Announcer (01:01:16):
Thanks for tuning in.
This episode was hosted byTantric Sex Master Coach and
positive psychology facilitator,Leah Piper, as well as by
Chinese and Functional Medicinedoctor and Taoist Taxology
teacher, Dr.
Willow Brown.
Don't forget your comments, likesubscribes and suggestions
matter.
Let's realize this new worldtogether.

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Max Carey: Filmmaker Confession - I Thought I Knew Sex Until I Made This Documentary | #146

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Max Carey: Filmmaker Confession - I Thought I Knew Sex Until I Made This Documentary | #146