Susan Taylor: Stop Blaming Your Partner’s Libido - Why the "High vs Low Sex Drive" Myth Is Destroying Your Relationship | #144 - The Sex Reimagined Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Willow (00:05):
All right, so if you think that low sex drive is the
problem to your relationship,think again.
The real reason, desire fadeshas nothing to do with
attraction and everything to dowith something so much deeper.
And today, Susan Taylor is goingto enlighten us on her
proprietary process, which willreally bring that passion and

(00:26):
that spark back to life nomatter how long you've been
together.

Announcer (00:30):
Welcome to the Sex Reimagined Podcast, where sex is
shame-free and pleasure forward.
Let's get into the show.

Willow (00:39):
Welcome Susan.

Susan (00:40):
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm so excited about ourconversation today and really
excited to talk about this topicaround, uh, yeah, the low
desire, which I think there'ssuch a myth around that and so
much misunderstanding, so I'mreally happy we're gonna shed
some light on that today foryour listeners.

Willow (00:54):
What, what do you think is like the number one myth that
really, you know, blocks peopleand gets people, you know,
disconnected from each other?

Susan (01:03):
Sure.
Well, there's the myth of thehigh desire, low desire.
We hear that all the time.

Willow (01:08):
the disparity between usually male and female men

Susan (01:11):
you, yeah.
If we're gonna be stereotypical,and it's usually, you know,
clinically we call that desirediscrepancy, but out there
you'll hear it as mismatchedlibido and, and sort of that
stereotypical role.
Women are often.
Sort of cornered into this placeof being the low libido partner
while the man is the high libidopartner.
And so there's this wholeconversation around a lot of
times what it ends up lookinglike is how do you get that

(01:32):
lower libido labeled partner tomatch the level of the high
libido partners?
So that becomes the wholeconversation or sometimes the
opposite can happen.
I've had, uh, worked withclients where the man felt he
had to shut down his desirebecause he was so tired of being
rejected and he felt terribleand guilty and like, I'm just
too much for my partner, so I'mgonna just to, you know, manage

(01:55):
this, to cope with this.
I'm just gonna shut it down.
And neither of these are reallythe effective strategy.
So the whole conversation, Ithink around high desire, low
desire, we need to like, reframethat completely and have a
completely new paradigm forlooking at what's actually going
on.

Willow (02:08):
So

Leah (02:08):
I,

Willow (02:09):
how we

Susan (02:09):
Yeah.

Leah (02:10):
yes.
Give us the reframe.

Willow (02:12):
Yes.

Susan (02:12):
happening?
Well, so there's really three,three roots to this problem, how
I see it.
Like three causes of what?
What creates this desirediscrepancy.
And one of the main ones is alack of, connection to our
direct pleasure pathways.
So the inability to actuallyaccess our own desire and our
own pleasure.
So there's a whole lot of thingsthat really.

(02:35):
That feed into that.
This is one of the things that Ihelp my couples with at my
couples retreats that are thepleasure keys, which I know
we're gonna talk about Pleasurekeys today, but really helping
couples be able to actually comeinto their own bodies and being
able to access what's calleddirect pleasure.
So we have two pathways in ourbodies that we experience
pleasure.
There's the direct route and theindirect route.
And what tends to happen a lotis we get overly dependent on

(02:57):
the indirect route, and that cancause.
All kinds of challenges.
So the indirect route is like,if I see my partner having a, a
good time, then I get enjoymentout of that.
Um, the use of pornography, forexample, is another form of
indirect pleasure.
It's coming through the, thevisual cortex into the brain,
and then we get aroused fromthat, or we experience enjoyment
from that indirect route.

(03:18):
So there's nothing inherentlywrong or bad about this.
We want access to that pathwayas well.
But where it starts to causeproblems is when one partner is
unable to really be able toenjoy intimacy unless the other
person is, for example,producing a certain response or
a certain reaction, or ifthey're wanting the thing that

(03:38):
the other person is doing at thesame time, the other person's
wanting it creates all kinds ofdiscord and disharmony.
And it can also lead to, um topeople pleasing where one person
maybe feels like they have toproduce an orgasm.
Oh gosh, I have to act like I'mliking this, so that he has a
good time.
But it also can create a realdisconnect in, in our

(03:58):
stereotypical couple, we'll justsay with the woman being the one
who's maybe just kind of goingalong with things, um, that
inability to actually contactwhat she wants and what feels
good for her.
She thinks that she's doingeverything he wants, but then he
thinks he's doing everything forher to try to get her to have a
good time when there's all thesewires crossed.

Leah (04:16):
All these missed marks.
I imagine it leads to a lot of,um, mind reading, which can be
so frustrating trying to guessand maneuver and do all these
things that you hope will work.
But people have a hard timecommunicating to really find out
what works and what doesn't, orbeing honest about what's
working and doesn't

Susan (04:35):
Well that happens too.
And really at the core of thisdynamic is the not asking for
what you want.
And there's a lot of reasons tothat.
Like maybe, I don't know,because I've been, so, yeah,
I've been so like obsessed withmaking sure my partner's happy
and everyone else is happy thatI have no fricking idea what I
want or what I like.
So there's that aspect.
Um, so to know what you want,but then the next piece is

(04:58):
there's so many obstacles toasking for what we want.

Willow (05:01):
Mm.

Leah (05:01):
totally.

Susan (05:02):
At the root of that is really, it comes down to fear,
right?
There's fear, I'm gonna be toomuch, I'm gonna be rejected.
Uh, what if my partner doesn'twanna shame?
So many roots to that.
So the core of that is knowinghow to know what I want.
And to do that we have to haveaccess to that direct pathway.
And the direct pathway is justthe direct, um, from stimulation
to the nerve endings on the skinup to the brain, having access

(05:26):
to that.
And it's remarkable how shut offmany of us are from.
That from our ability to reallyaccess that direct route, and
there's a whole host of reasonsfor that.

Willow (05:35):
Yes.
So many reasons, like societalpressures Pressure construct.
limiting beliefs that we learnedfrom parents, from

Susan (05:44):
Yes.

Willow (05:45):
all

Leah (05:45):
Yeah.
I imagine shame

Willow (05:47):
Blocks

Leah (05:48):
like a huge obstacle in all of this.

Susan (05:50):
Sure.
Like how many of us as kids, Imean, you know, I remember being
a kid and getting curious aboutmy body and being sort of, you
know, my mom giving me thesideways glance, like, what are
you doing?
And so, you know, that builds injust at a very young age.
The shame is built in.
And then, you know, as women,we're not supposed to be too
sexy, right?
So we have a lot of slutshaming.

(06:11):
And then I think men also, theyget the boner shame, right?
They're shamed for being toosexual and, right.
And so there, so it goes bothways and it really, um, can
cause us to shut down from thatability to celebrate our bodies
and really to access our ownpleasure and celebrate our own
desire to the extent that whatwe'll end up doing instead,
there's, I mean, we could have awhole podcast episode of what do

(06:32):
we do instead of ask for what wewant?
But a lot of times what I see asI work with my couples is
they'll put that desire on theother person and, Hey, do you
want X, Y, Z?
Do you want this?
Right?
Instead of like, Hey, I wouldlike this.
What do you think?
Are you willing, not willing,we'll put it on the other
person.
Like, Hey, is this something youtry to sneakily get it?

Willow (06:52):
if they're putting that desire

Leah (06:53):
desire on the other

Willow (06:54):
and the other person is like not picking up what they're
laying down, then there often isis sort of like, well then they
must not be attracted to me orthey must not love me, or they,
you know, they start to make upmore more ideas around that.
you speak to that a bit?

Susan (07:07):
Yeah, absolutely.
We put all kinds of meaning onit.
When, when what we're reallydoing is displacing our desire
into somebody else.
Hey, do you want this thing?
And if that person says, no, I,I don't want it, then right?
We make it mean that, okay, wellif they don't

Leah (07:21):
I'm never gonna

Susan (07:21):
I'm too, I'm never gonna get it.
Or I'm too much.
Or She doesn't love me, shedoesn't want me, I'm not desired
when really.
What needs to happen instead isa direct, uh, really what I call
clarity.
So, so much of this conversationis really about how do we create
clarity in the intimaterelationship.
And a lot of that begins withcommunication.

(07:42):
But we can't have clarity ifwe're not clear around what is
my, what am I wanting and isthis moment, who is this moment
for?
So that's sort of the next, uh,I said there was three things.
The next piece is reallyidentifying who is this
happening for?
Because if I don't know, if I'mnot owning my own desire and I'm
putting it on someone else,then, and uh, now there's a

(08:02):
whole bunch of thingspotentially that are happening
that maybe nobody wants to havehappen at all.
And I can give a great

Leah (08:07):
Yeah, what's an example?

Susan (08:09):
So I love this one'cause I see this happen all the time
around oral sex for somereasons.
Uh, in particular, and I had a,a couple that came to me and
they were having just, everytime they would go to be
intimate, it would just end whatI call a train wreck.
Right?
Like something would go south,they'd say, forget it.
And they would just, they got tothe point where they were
avoiding having sex, avoidingintimacy because there was so

(08:30):
much anxiety that it wasn'tgonna go well.
Well come to find out, one ofthe things that was happening
was he was going down on her.
Giving her oral sex just becausehe kind of thought like, well, I
mean, I guess that's just likethe next thing to do.
And in her head she never, like,oral sex just wasn't really her
thing.
Like she didn't really get a lotof pleasure out of it.
But she also felt two things.

(08:52):
Number one, she felt like sheshould be enjoying it because
there's sort of this idea thatyou're supposed to, like oral
sex.
A lot of women orgasm that way.
She was not one of them.
Um, so for her it was like, Idon't, I mean.
So she was trying to makeherself like the thing, and she
also was trying to make it looklike she liked it, so he would
feel like.

Willow (09:12):
feel good

Leah (09:13):
right.
Oh, I, I know this trap well,yes.

Susan (09:19):
I'm sure we all have some version of this.
I do too.
I mean, I could share personalstories on this, but so come to
find out, and nobody wascommunicating this, right?
So this whole thing's happeningand he's going like, why isn't
she liking it?
Oh my God, I'm not doing itright.
She's not attracted to me.
And in her head she's like,well.
Like, I don't know.
Why am I not liking this?
I should be liking it more.
And, and so it was just thistrain wreck, you know, he'd get

(09:40):
frustrated and give up.
She would feel like somethingwas wrong with her.
So through our work together,once I helped them understand
how to pull this apart, and Iasked them the question, well
Who is it for?
Like, are you doing, are yougoing down on her because it
feels good for you and you loveit and it's like really turns
you on?
Are you doing it because it'ssomething she desires and she's

(10:00):
expressed how much she lovesoral sex and wants that, wants
to receive that from you.
And come to find out, neither ofthem wanted it.

Willow (10:09):
What an easy solution for that couple.

Susan (10:13):
Yes.

Willow (10:14):
it out.

Leah (10:15):
That was the perfect illustration for that question.
Who's this for?
Um, let's start, let's go alittle bit deeper with the first
area of inquiry, which is, whatdo I want?
What are my desires?
I, I, I remember just years ofme even wrestling with this of
not sure what I wanted.

(10:37):
It was just my only thought wastry something and all I can do
is tell you if I like it or not.
Which put all the responsibilityout there and it's been very
enlightening and empowering todiscover and have the courage to
articulate out loud, which wasanother hurdle.
Was a starting to know what Ilike, but now saying it out

(10:59):
loud, um, and I think I had aleg up because being a teacher I
got, I would tell classes, so Ifelt like I got a big leap by
having to tell more than oneperson at a time.
Got really good at it fast.
But what's the process?
How do you help someone whoreally has no clue what they
desire?
How do they investigate that?

Susan (11:17):
Sure, and I, what you just spoke to is actually a very
valid way of starting to discernit because sometimes, well, I'll
tell you what the pathway is,but there's nothing wrong with
having a little bit ofcontainment.
Actually, that is part of theprocess of having some options.
Playing with different types oftouch.
Sometimes we don't realizethere's different types of touch
and sensation and even no touchat all.

(11:40):
Like we never consider that.
Right.
We think sex has its genitalsand or stillness.
Yeah, no

Leah (11:45):
love it?

Susan (11:47):
Yeah.
So we, so there's a whole thingthat can be on the buffet,
right?
And so sometimes it's helpful tohave some options to help us
kind of get the juices flowing.
But on a very fundamental level,it's what I call the three N's
of the My Pleasure Keys process,and it stands for notice, name,
negotiate.
So the very first step is thiscapacity to notice what am I

(12:08):
capable of noticing right now inthis moment and in my body?
Can I notice?
Can I take a minute and just payattention?
If I were to close my eyes rightnow and I would ask you to do
the same, can you just noticewhat do you feel?
What sensations are currentlyavailable to you as you scan
your awareness through yourbody?
So right now I can feel theweight of my, uh, legs against

(12:31):
this chair.
I feel the cool air actually onmy skin over here, and so I'm
starting to just exercise thatmuscle of noticing.
And what that helps us to do,what we're actually doing is we
are beginning to expand thataccess into the direct pleasure
route.
So I'm starting to exercise thatmuscle, which just starts with

(12:51):
that ability to notice.
And from there I can start tonotice if we're going to
involve, uh, if I could findpleasure right now in my body,
just a place where pre pleasureis already existing, so I'm not
trying to manufacture anythingand there's no actual partner
touch happening.
Um, can I just find and locate aplace in my body right now that
ha, that feels.

(13:11):
Good.
That has a nice feeling to it.
Something that's enjoyable orthat feels spacious and not
contracted.
Right?
So finding enjoyment where italready lives.
And the next step to that is theability, can I name that?
So I might identify, I mightidentify a part of my body,
maybe that does desire some kindof touch or a need that I have.

(13:32):
What I can do then is then I canname it.
I can notice right now, oh, Iwould love, actually would love
a little neck massage.
I would love some attention hereon my neck.
Or I would love if you, I couldsay to my partner, for example,
I would love if you would justsit across from me and just look
into my eyes.
Or maybe there's something elseI need.
What I need to hear right now isthat you love me, like so I can
start to identify what I want orwhat I need.

(13:56):
Or what I like.
Right?
And I can't do that if I don'thave connection to that ability
to start to notice what'shappening right here within my
own body.
So the second piece is thenaming of it.
The third piece, that third endis the negotiation.
And there's a lot of waysnegotiation can happen.
And no, it doesn't have to belike a business meeting, though
it could be, it can also be likevery sexy.

(14:17):
Um, but negotiating is reallyjust the art and the skill of
being able to bring that intothe relational space.
So this is where that overcomingthe differences in, uh, sexual
desire, desire, discrepancy.
It really comes down to thisability to have the necessary
skills to do these three things.
Notice naming and negotiating.
And within each of those threeends, there's a different skill

(14:37):
set that we're developing.
Um, a lot of people try to gostraight to the negotiation part
when they haven't done the veryfirst part of the noticing or
the naming, and that's where alot of the train wrecks happens
with couples.

Leah (14:48):
With, with the noticing and the naming.
Is this like, for instance, thenoticing and sensation?
Are they touching themselves?
Is their partner touching them?

Susan (15:00):
So noticing really well it can, so it really begins, I
believe, first with, it doesn'thave to begin with any touch at
all.
So what we just did a minute agois just that scanning awareness
through the body.
Sensual awareness, a practice ofsensual awareness.
Can I just become aware ofsensations in my body?
No touch happening at all.
The next aspect of this wouldinclude touch, and one of the
simple.
Simplest ways.

(15:21):
It doesn't even have to startout with partner touch.
It can begin with, um, apractice that, uh, I learned
from Betty Martin called WakingUp the Hands, which is a lovely
way, just as a solo practice tostart to expand our capacity for
direct pleasure.
And then if we wanna begin, sowe go baby steps, right?
Then we can take that into apartnered practice.
A beautiful practice, actuallyone of my clients dubbed it The

(15:43):
Curious Touch Practice.
So I have actually taken that,and I name it the Curious Touch
Practice, where we just beginwith a very non sexual body
part, like a hand.
Hey, can I, may I explore yourhand?
Can I feel your hand?
Hopefully your partner says,yes, consents.
And then all I'm doing, I'mtransferring that skill set now
to a living human, which is awhole different, different set

(16:03):
of, you know, there's a lot morethat comes with that and it's
remark more, way more nuances,and it's remarkable what happens
when just that transition comesinto play and all the obstacles
that start to come up or thepotential obstacles to pleasure
suddenly.
What can happen a lot of timessuddenly it's like, oh no.
What if my partner's not wantingthis or they don't like it?
But what we're really doing iswe're learning to touch in a way

(16:26):
that feels good for our own bodywith consent of the other
person.
So there's a lot of stuff aboutthis that is, it's totally game
changing once it clicks, but itcan be a lot to wrap your head
around at the outset.

Leah (16:37):
I love that.
I love that distinction withlike touching for your pleasure,
knowing what feels good, becausehands feel good when they're
oftentimes touching something.
And then being the touchy andfeeling someone's touch and
noticing the qualities of touchthat really open you.
And I think what's cool aboutthe two that I've experienced is

(17:00):
when someone is touching me fortheir pleasure.
There's an amplification.
Those mirror neurons get passedonto me and then my pleasure
intensifies because I love theloop of their desire building,
um, in relationship to whatthey're feeling when they feel
me, um, on a tactile level.

Willow (17:20):
yeah, the pleasure looping

Leah (17:22):
Mm-hmm.

Willow (17:23):
neuron is so powerful.
Um, Um, and I.
you know, the getting, trying tonegotiate when you haven't taken
the time to notice.
to name is, the reason peopleget into so much trouble there

Susan (17:36):
Yeah.

Willow (17:36):
they don't know exactly what they're negotiating.

Susan (17:40):
Right.

Willow (17:41):
like, found the truth of what's happening inside of their
own bodies.
And, you know, the, um, thenoticing feels like very
presencing, you know, just likegetting into the present

Susan (17:52):
Yes.

Willow (17:53):
your body.

Susan (17:54):
And I, we also can't enter into negotiation if we
don't understand the questionhave the answer to who is it
happening for?
And that's a really confusingquestion to a lot of couples at
the outset, because what you'regonna always hear is, well, it's
for both of us.
Or, I know it was for herbecause, um, she was getting
pleasure out of it, or I know itwas for me'cause I was liking
it.
So that's a, that's a, um,that's not the measure of who,

(18:15):
who the moment's happening for.
Just because you're gettingpleasure out of it doesn't mean
that the moment's happening foryou.
Who is it happening for?
Is when we identify whose desiream I following in this moment?
Am I following my own desire oram I following the desire of my
partner?
There are certainly moments inlife where both people are
wanting the same thing at thesame time.
Mutual enjoyment is absolutely athing, but I'll tell you, the

(18:36):
couples that come to me for helpor that come to my retreats,
they're not in that place.
They're having a lot of problemsand they don't know why they're
having the problems and this notunderstanding the nature desire
and who it's for and whosedesire am I following at any one
time is really at the core ofthat.
And to get to that answer, wedo, we have to have the answer
to that first question ofnoticing, what am I able to
notice right now in my body?

(18:59):
That's how I know if it's for meor for you because you might
say, Hey, um.
I wanna, I wanna do X, Y, Z toyou.
Would that be okay?
If I don't have access to my yesor my no, or really what's
happening in me in response tothat request?
I'm not gonna know if it'ssomething that I'm willing to do
or not willing to do, or ifmaybe it is a desire that I also

(19:19):
desire to do, I'm not gonna haveaccess to that.

Leah (19:22):
Okay, so now let's jump into the negotiation.
What are the, what are the rulesof engagement when it comes to
negotiation?

Willow (19:29):
gotta be some tools that go along with this negotiation

Susan (19:33):
Yeah, absolutely.
So I work with the twoquestions, um, of who, again,
this comes back to, who's itfor?
So what would you like me to doto you, or what would you like
to do to me?
So those two questions actuallycreate two completely different
touch dynamics.
One is me doing what I want todo.

(19:55):
Or me allowing you to do to mewhat you want.
It's your desire, but I'm gonnagive you access to my body for
your pleasure.
The other one is asking, what ismy desire?
It's me asking to receive a giftrather than giving a gift.
So we have the rules ofengagement, understanding the
difference between who's thegiver and who's the receiver.
That's really the fundamentalthing.

Willow (20:14):
It's such a, it's such a fun and sexy practice actually,
you know, to, um, I, I rememberthe first time ever kind of
played this with a partner and,and it was, we gave each other,
I think, three or five minutes.
You know, you

Susan (20:27):
Yeah.

Willow (20:28):
do whatever you want

Leah (20:29):
You want.

Willow (20:30):
body as long as I consent, you know,

Susan (20:32):
Yep.

Willow (20:32):
back and forth.
And I mean, we hadn't evenkissed at that point, right?
So it

Susan (20:36):
Yes.

Willow (20:36):
partner.
So of course there was morecharge around it, but like, we
were doing all kinds of thingsto each other.
And then finally I was like, oh.
Wanna kiss you.
It was just so much fun, youknow?
So I think, um, when, whenpartners who have been
struggling for a long time andlike just their desires and then
they wanna blame it on lowlibido and that they're not, and
start to

Susan (20:56):
Yeah.

Willow (20:56):
not attracted to each other and they just get into
this kerfuffle of layers ofstuff to

Susan (21:01):
Right.

Willow (21:02):
playing a simple game like this can totally unravel so
much so

Leah (21:06):
Yeah, I have like, I've got this answer rolling in my
mind of two people going like,well, I want a blow, blow job.
And she's like, well, I justwant my neck rubbed.
So how do we, how do we then gofrom answering those questions
to the next step in figuring outwhat we engage in?
Especially if, you know you'vegot one person who really wants

(21:31):
the sexual, another personwho's.
All wrapped up in ropes aroundtheir ability or desire to be
sexual.
They might have to start at likenonsexual touch first.

Susan (21:43):
Absolutely.
And so let's just take, that's agreat example and that one
actually that happens all thetime.
Right?
Well, first of all, like, youknow, there's a, there's really
often a desire to escalate this.
We start very, very small whenI, you know, working with
couples, it's, we don't gostraight for the genital or the
sexual touch right out of thegate because it comes with so
many other bits of baggage andit escalates.

(22:05):
So it's, it's backing way upfirst to develop the skills of
negotiation first, because whatcan happen if there's too much
too fast, we're gonna defaultinto the old modes of like,
okay, he wants me to give him ablowjob, so I'm just gonna do it
because that's what I'm supposedto do, or that's gonna keep him
happy.
Or in the.
I even had some clients once,they're like, well, in the
spirit of doing the game, youknow, I just did it.

(22:27):
I'm like, that is absolutelynot.
That's not the,

Leah (22:31):
you missed the, yeah, the right by.
Well, that's hard to do, right?
Because there's this piece, Ithink in, in partnership where
it rocks your survival to havethese types of things

(22:54):
confronted.
If I can just give you a blowjob.
Then it settles my nervoussystem down to think that our
marriage is in threat and we'reheaded to being broken.
And now we're super messed up.
And I just wanna have a littlebit of space where we feel okay
before the next thing.
So we do end up saying yes whenwe wanna say no.

(23:15):
Um, and that is a bad habit.
And yeah.
How do you address that?

Susan (23:20):
Yeah.
So we wanna get out of thathabit and because that's, it's
an unconscious habit at thatpoint, it's a conscious of
tolerating or being obligated.
So we're trying to undo that andthe only way to undo that is
through clarity.
So all of this is about creatingclarity.
I think I probably already saidthat, but, but part of that is
if we can bring it into thelight, then it can become a

(23:42):
conversation of, well, right nowI don't feel like sucking your
dick.
I'm not really willing to suckyour dick right now, but what I
would be willing to do is X, Y,Z, or the conversation could
also be, you know what?
I don't really want to give youa blowjob, but I would be
totally willing to do it'cause Ilove you and like with an open

(24:03):
heart, I am full on willing togive that to you as a gift.
So this is really about, it'sabout limits.
So that's what we would calllearning how to identify our,
our own limits so that I canidentify is it something that
I'm willing, am I willing toprovide that meaning I'm not
tolerating, I'm not doing it outof obligation, my heart is open.
I'm really genuinely willing togive that.
Or are there some?
Hmm.
Like there's some sticky pointson that.

(24:24):
I would kind of be violatingsomething in me.
I don't even have to know whatit is if I were to provide that.
But maybe there's something elsethat right now that I am willing
to provide that I could give youwith a full open heart and, and
could we renegotiate this ask sothat it could be something that
would make you super happy andthat also I could give with a
willing heart.
So it's not that this is alwaysnecessarily easy, but that's the

(24:46):
art and that's, and that's theskill, and now it's conscious.
So it's not something that'shappening in the shadows or
unconsciously, and that's thefundamental difference.

Leah (24:55):
What do you think about like transactional agreements?
So I had a boyfriend once and I,we had so much fun with this, so
I just wanna like put my hand upthat this was a great
transactional process for us.
But I noticed he would wantsomething and I would notice I
don't feel like it.
I'm not really don't want to,but if you do this thing for me,

(25:17):
I notice that I want to, and itreally felt like an authentic
thing.
How do I get to my, yes.
Oh, I need something in orderfor my no to turn into a real
Yes, and then I would show upwith total enthusiasm.
But I had to kind of figure out,well, shit, I mean, I do want
you to have what you want.
I just don't wanna give it toyou until I get something that I

(25:39):
want.

Susan (25:40):
Sure.
Yeah.
I love that you just broughtthis in as an example, because
that's another part to thenegotiation is we can ask this
question of ourselves or of ourpartners.
What would I, and I'll do thiswhat, what I need right now so
that I could.
So either person can ask that ofthe other.
What would you need right now?
Is there something I could giveyou or do or that you could give

(26:02):
to yourself or do for yourselfso that you would feel like.
Doing X, Y, Z or giving X, Y, Z.
And that is such a beautifulquestion.
'cause then it doesn't have tobe the end of the whole thing.
And that's where a lot ofcouples, the train wrecks,
right?
And then it's just like, forget,let's call the whole thing off.
It's just like, game over.
Instead of like, okay, that wasa little funky, a little weird.

(26:22):
Let's slow down.
Dunno what happened there, butlet's just slow down and let's
just see like, okay, is theresomething that I need right now
so that I could relax a littlebit more so that I could provide
that thing or so that I couldask for the thing that I need
and I can either give that tomyself or ask for that from my
partner.
That's the beautiful thing.
It's not always something thatmy partner has to provide.

(26:42):
Sometimes it's just that I needto ask for the thing, or I need
to take a deeper breath, or Ineed to slow down, right?
Something within myself.

Leah (26:51):
right.
Like, I need you to go deal withthe kids.
I need a bubble bath.
You know?
I need to

Susan (26:55):
I need a hot tub.

Leah (26:56):
transition.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I need you to take out thegarbage, clean the kitchen,
empty the dishwasher.

Susan (27:02):
Yeah.
And mop the floors

Leah (27:03):
Yes.

Susan (27:04):
Cut the grass.

Leah (27:07):
Or I need a new laptop, whatever it takes.
Or I just need you to say, Ilove you, and pepper me with
adoration and gratitude, orwhatever.
Yeah.
Okay.
Good.

Willow (27:16):
well now it's like we're getting into people asking for
their love language to be met.
You know?

Susan (27:22):
Hmm.

Willow (27:22):
really like understanding and knowing.
Is it words of affirmation thatthey need?
Is it acts of service that theyneed?
What is the thing that makesthem feel loved and filled up to
the point where they wanna thengenerously give?

Susan (27:34):
Yeah.

Willow (27:35):
So I'm just so curious with the couples that you work
with, like let's say, know, acouple's been coming to, they
start coming to you and theyhave been at.
Um, a disparity inside of theirmarriage for, you know, 10 years
or a long time, long period oftime.
Like what's the general, um.
how do you kind of get, meetthem where they're at

Susan (27:57):
Mm-hmm.

Willow (27:58):
then, you know, slowly or quickly bring them to a place
of where they are actuallyhaving fun with these practices?

Susan (28:06):
Yes,

Willow (28:07):
what's the protocol?
What's your, how do you weavethis magic into what seems like

Susan (28:12):
yes.

Willow (28:13):
broken marriages?

Susan (28:14):
Well, yeah, in terms of format and timeframe, I mean, I
think the best way that I loveto work with couples is through
the immersion experiences, ThePleasure Keys Retreats.
I just see it's a three dayfortnight experience where
you're just able to really divedeep and really make a lot of
progress.
So that's like my favorite way.
It's not the only way.
Um, otherwise I can see it formost couples, it's a four to six

(28:36):
month journey.
If it's more of like atraditional meeting, once a week
type of thing to get the skillsreally built in, and there's
stuff that has to be doneoutside.
You know, there's so much thatcan be done while we're working
together, but couples have to bereally willing also to, uh,
where the rubber meets the roadis implementing and setting time
aside because you're developinga whole new skillset and fun is

(28:57):
the name of the game.
And it all begins with, youknow, there's just been, there's
so much, um, there can be somuch resentment that's built up
and a couple that's beentogether for a long time.
And there's been a lot of thingsthat have happened over the
years and, um.
Right.
Emotional baggage and intimateexperiences that have not gone
right, and so we want toreengage the idea of playfulness

(29:20):
and fun.
And the best way to do that isjust a by starting much more
slowly.
Maybe we don't even start withtouch at all.
That might be too escalated forsome couples.
Maybe we just start withlearning how to identify and
express desire and how tocelebrate.
The expression of that desire,because that's another thing
that I see happen is one personwill say, I want this, and the

(29:42):
other person feels obligated togive it, and so they like shut
down or withdraw or they give itoutta obligation, which we're
trying to get out of thesepatterns.
A expression of desire is not arequest, and that's another
clarification that I have tohelp my couples with.
If,

Leah (29:57):
Say that again.
Say that again?

Susan (29:59):
an expression of a desire is not a request.
Request looks different than anexpress.
If I say, Ooh, like I want, Iwanna fuck you tonight.

Leah (30:09):
Mm-hmm.

Susan (30:10):
That's me just expressing my desire.
It does not mean that my partnerhas to consent to that or that I
have to follow through withthat.
There's no pressure on, that'sjust me expressing something
that I want.
I, Hey, I want a milliondollars.

Leah (30:24):
yeah.
Yeah, that's so important.
I think that that is the key tocreating permission for people
to really explore their turn ontheir their desires, the deeper
corners of what would be hot orsexy to them.
You know, some of thistransgressive sexual fantasy

(30:46):
stuff that is all over romancenovels.
My God, it's like we never talkabout how much that actually
speaks to the, the population,which is mainly women who read
romance novels, but it is fullof sexy, transgressive energy.
And there's so many things inthat that turn us on that it's
not saying, will you deliverthat?

(31:07):
But it's so good to own it andto have language for it and to
talk about it and explore it andto see all the richness and, and
uh, you know, I think we'vereally, we haven't normalized F
female sexuality to the degreewe have men in the name of
desire, so I really love thatyou say that because that gives

(31:28):
people permission to explore itwithout feeling the pressure
that if they say it out loud,that means they're asking for
it.

Susan (31:35):
Right.
Yeah, it's a totally differentthing.
So the asking for it would besomething totally different that
would be like, Hey, would youlike to have sex tonight?
I could, or I can invite it,right?
Is that something you want?
Would you like to do that withme?
Are you willing to do that?
So it's an invitation.
It's a direct request or adirect invitation to have an
experience together versus theexpression of a desire.

(31:56):
And so I had a couple I wasworking with a few years ago,
and this would happen with themall the time.
He would express you know, like,wow, you look so sexy.
I really wanna take you to thebedroom right now.
Something, you know, a sexualremark or just, wow, you're so
beautiful.
Or, oh my god.
And she would completely like adeer in the headlights, like
freeze up.
'cause she wasn't wanting thatat that moment.
And she would just go into thisfreeze response.

(32:18):
And then she would end up a lotof times giving in outta
obligation.
So when we worked on this pieceof helping her and having the
clarity, that's not a directrequest, so can you just
celebrate his desire instead of,and then teaching him how to
make a direct request for it.
So he would have differentlanguage if he wanted to, like,
Hey, are you willing, or wouldyou like to, he learned that
language.
Are you willing to, would youlike to, do you want to like the

(32:41):
invitation for the making therequest versus I'm just
expressing a desire.
Very different.

Willow (32:47):
that he was just expressing or

Susan (32:49):
Uh,

Willow (32:49):
also a request

Susan (32:51):
yeah.
Yeah.
No, I think the wires were verycrossed.
I think it, he, yeah, he did notunderstand that at that time
either, but yeah.
And so there was all, again,it's when this stuff is in the
shadows, it's not up illuminatedin the light and there's clarity
around it.
So, so the, yeah.
And then I wanted just to addthis in, because this is a great
time to bring this in, like thethird piece here of like why

(33:13):
couples get mismatched desire.
They don't have the, um like thelanguage, like the shared
language in an actual frameworkto be able to start to have the
clarity.
They don't have the language andthe framework and the skillset
to create that clarity.
So that's really all I do when Iwork with couples.
It's what we do at the PleasureKeys retreats.
We're creating that clarity, theframework and the common

(33:33):
language so that then couplescan navigate this on their own
and then you avoid those trainwrecks tend to happen far less
often, and when they do, youactually now have the skills to
be able to navigate through it.

Leah (33:44):
You know, you know, I've, uh, what's popping through my
mind is like the fantasy ofhaving a threesome, right?
And wanting to talk about howhot it would be if that
bartender came home with us.
Um.
But that doesn't mean it's arequest.
It's actually a, it could justbe a really fun, rich, sexy,
titillating conversation to bespontaneous.

(34:07):
Yeah.
That could be really, you know,fun just to say out loud and get
hot and bothered by, and then,but not necessarily say, Hey,
should we pick him up?
Should we pass him our phonenumber?

Susan (34:17):
Yes.
Right.
Two of totally.
Go ahead.

Willow (34:22):
there words that you would then kind of coach people
on saying in, in, in like topreface Like, hey, is not like,
it's not a request, justsomething that Yes.
I I, I wanna express.
it's up inside of me and

Susan (34:36):
Yeah, exactly.

Willow (34:37):
you.

Leah (34:38):
Yeah.
How do you create, how do youcreate safety for those kinds
of, because I even haveconversations I haven't had yet
with my husband that I am, thinkabout that I kind of wanna have.
But I am a little, not like I'mscared something bad will
happen, but I don't want, likeyou said, like some sort of

(34:59):
weird meaning making to happen.
Have it be hung over arelationship thing if it doesn't
go well.
And I think I don't really needit that bad to start a fuss.
So what are, what's thecontainer that supports these
conversations Being fun,hopefully versus

Susan (35:20):
Well, yeah, I think there's, there's, there's
different contain, there'sdifferent containers for it.
And Willow, like what you justsaid, that prefacing is one.
That's one way to do it.
Another really fun game thatI've come across out there that
I think is kind of fun is, um,the expression of how I wanna
feel and versus what I want toactually do.
So they're two different things.
So it says a game, like, Hey,hey, let's play a game.

(35:41):
Okay.
I'm gonna express all the thingsthat I want to feel intimately,
and I just get, so I'm gonnatake like, uh, you know, let's
just do 60 seconds each, right?
Set a timer.
So I'm gonna do it and then youcan do it, and then you can
actually, I have an expression,okay?
All the things I actually wouldlike to do.
To you or with you that Iactually wanna act on.
And you set a timer and have aminute where you share that.

(36:01):
So the time is an importantpiece.
So that time actually containsit.
It could be three minutes, itdoesn't have to be one minute,
but just something that's shortand fun.
And I think that you do have tohave a certain understanding
already in place.
Like you said, Willow, like, youknow, I mean, yeah, we don't
wanna bring stuff in if ourpartner is really going to be
super triggered.
We wanna be sensitive to, Iwould get curious about what

(36:22):
those triggers are before I everwould do something like this.
What are the triggers?
It doesn't mean I wanna open therelationship, you know, if
that's a big trigger forsomebody, um, we might wanna
just get curious about thatpiece first before we like
launch off the deep end andstart expressing, let's bring
the bartender home, right?

Willow (36:37):
I feel

Leah (36:38):
Mm-hmm.

Willow (36:38):
like there's so many unexpressed desires, you know,
even outside of sexuality withinlong-term couples

Susan (36:45):
Yes.

Willow (36:46):
of this.
Uh, idea of like, well, I justknow how they're gonna respond.
I know how they're gonna takethis expression.
I, I've tried it before.
So the samskara is like the oldimprints from previous years in
the relationship, and that shutsdown

Susan (37:01):
Yeah.

Willow (37:02):
expression.

Susan (37:03):
Ugh.

Willow (37:03):
Um, so what would you say to couples who are kind of
stuck in that, like, yeah, I'dlike to express, I'm, I'm into
the bartender, but

Susan (37:11):
Yes.

Willow (37:11):
be a shit show.
For

Leah (37:14):
love this bartender thing

Susan (37:15):
I do too.
Who's this bartender.

Willow (37:17):
I think he's Irish too, by the way.

Susan (37:20):
Oh.

Leah (37:22):
or, yeah, or she could be Italian.
We don't know.

Susan (37:24):
Oh, even better.

Willow (37:24):
Okay.

Susan (37:27):
Yeah, I think we have to, well, there's a couple things on
this.
We have to be willing, I think,to see, we create so many
stories, especially in long-termrelationships, stories about
ourselves, stories about ourpartners, stories about the way
that things were and the waythings are that Can I stop for a
moment?
And I think one beautifulpractice.
Can I just see the truth of mypartner's heart that I know
that.
That he or she loves me, he orshe cares about me.

(37:49):
Like really?
If that's true in yourrelationship, which I would hope
it is, if you've been togetherthat long, not maybe always for
everybody, but can I see theirtrue heart?
Can I practice to give them achance to be somebody new?
So there's that piece, right?
Can I give them that opportunityto be somebody different than
how I am limiting them throughhow I'm seeing them?
I'm not giving them anopportunity to become somebody

(38:09):
new for me if I'm only seeingthem through the eyes of the
past.
And the second piece is thewillingness ourselves to show
up.
Differently'cause we get stuckin our own patterns and our own
limiting beliefs and thenegative self-talk that can go
on inside our heads.
Can I just tell that to shut upand can I give myself a chance
to be somebody new?
Can I be so self-responsible andaccountable for my own

(38:32):
experience that I am willing toshow up differently and that I'm
willing to trust the moment andtrust my partner to perhaps be
somebody new and different also,in that moment, we might really
be pleasantly surprised.

Leah (38:44):
So good.
Tell us about the somatictherapy interventions that have
been successful for you, andmaybe first explain what is
somatic therapy for thoselisteners that may be
unfamiliar.

Susan (38:57):
Yeah, there's a lot of like lack of knowledge around
that word, and then also someconfusion around it.
And there are also differentthreads of somatic therapy in
the sexuality realm.
So thank you for thatopportunity to clarify at a
really fundamental level,somatic just means of or
pertaining to the body, meaningit's an approach where we're
incorporating more ofexperiential knowledge and
wisdom that our bodies bring.

(39:19):
The, the reactions that happenin our body, we're actually
actively working with those insomatic approaches to therapy,
whether that's around sexualityor even trauma or any other type
of psychological, it can be usedacross the board through mental
health, all the way intosexuality, trauma resolution.
So in my work as a somatic sextherapist, I am not putting

(39:40):
hands on my clients.
There are some threads ofsomatic sex work, uh, somatic
sex education, sexological bodywork, these are somatic
approaches that do hands on workwhere the practitioner touches
the body and sometimes, uh,genital touch is part of that or
can be part of that.
Um, I don't use that as asomatic sex therapist, but what
I am doing is I'm bringing mycouples into experiential

(40:00):
practices where in real timethey get to meet and greet the
thing that is actually in theway of them, let's say, having
more, uh, a deeper connection ormore pleasure in intimacy.
And that's just done through,again, experiential practices
where they're actually beingbrought into connection, let's
say.
How we might do that might bethrough using breath, through

(40:22):
using eye contact and then usingdifferent, um, practices that
help develop that first skill ofnoticing.
There's multiple practices I usethat are done solo practice, but
also in the relational space.
How we start to bring in thatnoticing relationally and being
able to use our voice as part ofthat.
Um, so yeah, that's it.

Leah (40:41):
You know, I'm curious how often, and then what do you do
if it shows up when you have apartner who's had, um, a sexual
trauma?
In their background that deeplyactually affects how they're
able to express themselvessexually.

(41:03):
How much capacity they have toreceive their partner's sexual
energy.
How often is that an obstaclethat, that people have to
unwind?

Susan (41:12):
A lot.
I mean, I see that a lot.
Yeah.
It's, it, it, becauseunfortunately sexual abuse and
trauma is so rampant out there,either through childhood sexual
abuse or, you know, later inlife.
Um, and, and really it, butagain, it comes back to this
very first skill of noticing.
So what you wanna do in thosesituations is help that person
be able to slow down to noticeenough of what's happening in

(41:34):
the body, when is the shutdownhappening?
And so having that level ofawareness is really the first
step, right?
Can I become aware of when I amclosing off?
When am I pulling away?
When is, and what?
What are the sensations in mybody like when that happens so
that we can start then to trackit?
Because once you have thatawareness, then you can start to
name it.
So I've noticed and I've named,and then there's two things that

(41:57):
we do to start to create moresafety in the body.
And it's either slow down orreduce intensity, or both.
It could be a combination of thetwo of those and the, they could
be one and the same,potentially, depending on what's
going on.
So slowing down or reducingintensity, that might mean,
whoa, I need you to stoptouching me completely so I can
just breathe into my body.

(42:18):
I might need you to move just 10feet away.
So that my nervous system cancome back into a state of
regulation

Leah (42:24):
Mm-hmm.

Susan (42:25):
so that we're, I'm equipping them with those
skills.
And so there's several thingshappening there, right?
But once they learn how to havesort of control and authority
over that, then we can sort ofgradually increase intensity.
At their discretion, they're incontrol of that.
How far, how close, how fast,where is the touch happening?
Learning how to really, what'scalled choice and voice in the

(42:47):
somatic science education world.
Empowerment of choice and voice.
So choice is about havingchoices that I always have a
choice to say yes or no ormaybe.
I have a choice to just opt outcompletely.
We don't have, we're soconditioned that you have to,
right?
You have to eat all the food onyour plate.
Uh, you have to sit at this deskfor eight hours a day.

(43:08):
You have to be still duringclass.
I mean, as kids, we are justconditioned into denying our
bodies responses.
Our natural responses we're,we've been trained for a
lifetime to ignore them, forgenerations, and more so even
with women, right?
We're trying to be.

Willow (43:26):
the voice, to to be seen and pretty, but not to be heard.
I think, I think the expressionfor women is probably one of the
hardest places too.
'cause it's like if, uh, if thethroat gets shut down or the
vulva or the vagina gets shutdown, they're such a mirror Yes.
image of each other.
And

Susan (43:44):
Yes.

Willow (43:44):
you know, um, if there was sexual abuse, if there was,
or even just

Leah (43:49):
Just a dominant parent that, that when you know that
suppressed your voice and all ofthe things

Willow (43:55):
even just not like encouragement inside of
sexuality.

Leah (43:59):
Right.

Willow (44:00):
Maybe just living in a suppressed, you know, Catholic
household or

Susan (44:03):
Well, sure.
Just this society in general, Imean, the pure, the Puritan
influences in our country are sounconscious, right?
I mean, we're really founded onlike the denial of pleasure and,
uh, the hard work ethic.
And no pleasure until you'veworked really hard and all.
We don't even, I'll tell youthis crazy realization of this.

(44:24):
When I was, uh, about 20, alittle over 20 years ago, I took
a trip to Nepal, which wasfabulous, but it was so insane
there.
Like I realized all my Americanconditioning around this in this
very way.
So in Nepal, they'll serve youall this food on a plate and
whatever you eat first, theycome around and give you more of
that thing.

(44:44):
But I was, yeah, so I was soconditioned like, well, I don't
really wanna eat the carrots,but like I'm going to eat'em
first so then I can get to likethe good stuff later.
But what would happen is I'd eatthe carrots and they'd come and
they'd bring me more.
I'm like, well, shoot, why areyou bringing me more?
So I didn't understand.
So once I caught onto like, ohno, you eat the stuff you like
first, and then they bring youmore of the stuff you like and
they don't bring any more of thestuff, you don't.

(45:05):
But this whole thing went off inme of like, wow, like, I mean, I
was so unconsciously conditionedto like, eat your peas before
your.
You're mean.

Leah (45:13):
great.
Yeah.
You know?

Willow (45:16):
pleasure.

Susan (45:16):
You don't get any pudding if you don't eat your meat!
Because how can you have anypudding if you don't eat your
meat?

Leah (45:22):
That that is so funny.
I also did the same thing mywhole life until I realized I'm
eating the best bite first.
The best bite.
'cause you can always taste, thefirst three bites are the best
bites.
That's your mouth is so yummy.
Okay, so I wanna, this isn't apushback, but it is a counter
and I, I wanna preface it bysaying I agree with everything

(45:42):
that was just said.
And sometimes we have anavoidant tendency, which means
we're so in the habit of likenot pushing ourselves.
We stay in the fear, we stay inthe avoidance of not wanting to
feel the scary feelings that aretrapped in our body because of
an inflection point of trauma inthe past.

(46:03):
And sometimes we actually needencouragement to confront the
thing we're afraid of feeling.
That we, we get flooded becauseit presents itself and then we
run in the other direction.
So it's like we gotta be ableto, I think, decipher.
When am I, I need a, I'mflooded, I need a break.
I can't take any morestimulation.

(46:25):
Can we have a timeout ascompared to, I don't even wanna
try.
I don't even want that.
And then we find ourselves neverhaving intimacy because that
avoidance is so strong.

Susan (46:35):
Yeah, that's

Leah (46:36):
Then what do we do for the partner who's always in the
yo-yo of trying to figure out,well, now none of my needs get
met because this is all based onyou.

Susan (46:47):
yeah.
Well, there's sort of a sweetspot in this whole, it's called
like the learning zone, right?
Where there's just enoughnervous system activation where
we're actually able to let newinformation in.
So we're not in the comfort zonetotal like avoidance and we're
not so flooded and overwhelmed,we're in the trauma response,
the flight or flight or freeze.
Um, so there's sort of a certainnuance to that of learning how

(47:09):
to find that within yourself.
If you are that person that isthe shut one, shutting down,
who's experienced the traumas,can you, again, it comes back to
that skill of noticing like.
It's a fine line.
And I would say that we have togive ourselves permission to not
always get it right and to notalways know.
Um, the other thing I always askmy couples is, what are the
potential things that are goingto come up in this process that

(47:32):
could sabotage your success?
We're gonna identify those atthe very, very beginning to the
best of our ability.
Because what I want is, I wantmy couples being able to
identify what their patternsare, ideally as best they can
ahead of time, and then resourcethemselves.
So when that happens, what areyou gonna do to make sure that
it doesn't, because you're hereand you obviously want something
to be, if we really want change,we've gotta be willing, right,

(47:54):
ready, willing, and able.
So can you identify what thepotential sabotage saboteurs
are?
The behavior patterns, thethought patterns, things that
are gonna happen that you'regonna default.
And so once they name that, sowe've got notice and name again,
then okay, great.
Then I ask, how are you gonnamanage that when it comes up?
What are you gonna do to makesure it doesn't derail you?
And so I have them identifywhat's gonna work for them.

(48:17):
And I'll ask also, what can I,is there anything that I can
that you need from me or thatyou can ask or from your
partner?
We don't wanna make it all onthe other person or on the
therapist.
Right?
Because it's not, I want themleaning on their own energy.
I wanna be there to be asupport, a facilitator, a
catalyst, an illuminator.
But I don't want the, the changeis not on me.

(48:40):
I'm there to support it, but I'mhappy if I can provide something
to help that.
If I notice it a lot of times,like, okay, yeah, I, if I notice
it, I'll call it out.
I will.
'cause now that you've just saidthat's your pattern, if I see
it, I'll call it out.
But I'm gonna also call you todo the things within you that
you just said you're gonna dowhen this happens, which might
be like, I'm gonna notice it orname it, or I'm gonna tell you,

(49:01):
or ask my partner for support.
So we have to resource ourselvesin that.
We cannot leave it to default orleave it all on our partner or
our therapist shoulders to dothat work for us.

Willow (49:11):
Mm.

Leah (49:12):
So good, so good.
Love it.

Willow (49:14):
Yeah, super powerful.

Leah (49:16):
So, um, I believe you have your pleasure Keys retreats for
couples.

Susan (49:21):
yes.
What would you like to

Leah (49:23):
it.
Well, yeah.
How often?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Tell us, tell us what it is, howlong they are, how do they send
all the things.

Susan (49:32):
Oh, thank you so much.
Well, the retreats are really myabsolute favorite way to work
with couples.
Again, I think I said thisearlier because I really, I love
to be able to see couples godeep and to get out of like the
day to day life, to get awayfrom work obligations, kids, and
sort of the normal householdstuff where we're stuck in our
patterns to really be able topull away and go deep where I
can really teach theseprinciples and.

(49:54):
They can leave with it embodied.
It's embodied learning.
They learn through experience,so it's not just in the head
where we're analyzing or talkingabout concepts.
And it's not just a once a weekthing where you forget what you
just talked about in the sessionthe following week.
So it really is a chance to godeep and develop these skills of
getting back on the same page.
And the notice name andnegotiate and all the nuanced

(50:15):
skills that are under each ofthose three ends.
We go deep into that and it canbe fun.
So we do the retreats this year.
I have two retreats.
I have one coming up, uh,actually in a couple weeks here
and another one this fall.
Um, and we'll be doing themabout four times a year.
So kind of a couple in thespring and a couple in the fall.
So the best way.

Willow (50:33):
How many couples come to these retreats?

Susan (50:35):
Yeah, I cap it at about 10 couples, so it is intimate
and I do that on purpose to keepit intimate and, um, yeah.
And so there's lots of time forthe couples to connect.
There's a lot of time in theafternoon.
We do the teaching from aboutthe morning into the early
afternoon, and then afternoonsand evenings are open, so I
don't like to have like whereit's all crammed in and you're
exhausted at the end of the day.

(50:56):
We may.
Yeah.
Lots of breaks and there's foodand.
Yes and beautiful.
Our next one is gonna be inGatlinburg, Tennessee in the
Smoky Mountains, which is justabsolutely a stunning location.
If you've never been a beautifulplace, we'll actually do our one
in the fall there as well.
And then, uh, we'll be havingsome other locations coming up
in 2026.

Willow (51:14):
That's

Leah (51:14):
where, where do you call home?

Susan (51:16):
My home is the Western Mountains of North Carolina, so
I'm about an hour west ofAsheville, up in the beautiful
mountains here.
I love it.

Leah (51:24):
And then you also work one-on-one with couples or
individuals or just couples?

Susan (51:28):
I do, yeah, I do work with individuals.
I'm a specialist in women'ssexuality, so I primarily will
work with women as individualsand I work also with couples in
private coaching and I work withcouples around the world.
I, I do virtual coaching.

Willow (51:40):
Great.
And how can

Susan (51:41):
Yeah.
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
Yeah.
All of my stuff lives atwww.pathwaytopleasure.com.

Willow (51:47):
Nice.

Leah (51:48):
And you have a, I believe you have a free gift for our
audience.
I thought I saw that somewhere.
Can you tell us about it?

Susan (51:53):
Yes.
So I have a free ebook if anyonewould like to go a little bit
deeper on the conversationaround the pleasure keys and
actually have some practicalthings that you can do today to
start to implement and developthe notice name, negotiate.
So it's a free, I.
Uh, downloadable ebook atwww.pleasurekeys.com, and really
the goal of that is to give youa taste of some of these

(52:14):
principles in an experientialway so that you can deepen
connection, increase orgasmicpotential, and start to get back
on the same page, creatingmutual fulfillment for the long
term.

Leah (52:23):
Wow.
Thank you so much.

Willow (52:26):
pleasure to be here with you today, Susan.
Thanks for

Leah (52:28):
Oh, and let's talk about your podcast,

Susan (52:30):
Oh yes.
Oh my goodness.
I always forget about thepodcast Sex Talk Cafe podcast.

Willow (52:34):
We were

Susan (52:35):
I love the podcast.
Y'all were on the podcast.
It was.
I had so much fun with you guyson there.
We had such a great time.
Yes.
Sex Talk Cafe.
It's on all the platforms outthere.
Uh, we do juicy conversationson.
Sex, love, relationships,embodied sexuality, all kinds of
great topics.
And these two amazing, uh, womenwe're just on.
And we'll be getting thatepisode published very soon.

(52:55):
So join me over there at SexTalk Cafe, uh, the website on
that www.sextalkcafe.net, butyou can find it on any of the
major podcast platforms.

Willow (53:02):
Awesome.

Leah (53:03):
And we'll have, uh, all the links on the show notes for
all these goodies.
Susan, you know, after our, uh,recording with you on your show,
will and I hung up going, wereally like her.
She could be our friend.
So thank you so much.

Willow (53:16):
Susan that, she texted me back.
She's like, I have the samethought.

Leah (53:19):
Yeah, it was really great.
Yes.
Yeah.

Susan (53:23):
Well, I'm looking, I'm looking at the Bliss Boogie or
The Boogie.
What was that

Leah (53:27):
Oh, bliss Boogie.
Yes.

Susan (53:29):
in Raleigh, so it's only about five hour drive from me.
So yeah, I'm looking at thedates and yeah, I think I may
try to make it up there, so I'lllet you all know we can meet up.
It'd be

Leah (53:36):
Yes, that would be fabulous.
Well,

Susan (53:39):
much.
This has been so greatconnecting with you and yeah,
such a ton of fun.
So I hope we'll be in touch andhave more fun together in the
future.

Willow (53:47):
Okay.

Leah (53:48):
y'all, this is, uh oh.
Next we have the dish, so staytuned.

Announcer (53:54):
Now our favorite part, the dish.

Willow (53:59):
If you think low sex drive is the problem in your
relationship, think again.
The real reason, desire fadeshas nothing to do with
attraction and everything to dowith something much deeper.
So let's dish it up.

Leah (54:13):
dish it out.
Yes.
You know, that was the biggesttakeaway from this episode, and
it was so refreshing.
You know, one of the things Iwish I would've asked her was
her opinion, if she had anopinion on spontaneous desire
versus responsive desire, and ifshe plays with that at all.
Because it's another angle ofworking with mismatched libidos,

(54:34):
and I feel like her system isactually a great way to address
that responsive desire versusspontaneous desire, um, issue.
But I also kind of like that shedoesn't categorize that because
it's, feels really good to gothis is an obstacle that can be
solved.

(54:55):
And this is how you do itwithout having to put labels on
anyone.

Willow (54:59):
Yeah.
Yeah, her, her, um, noticing,negotiating and naming
technique, you know, the threeends

Leah (55:07):
Yeah.

Willow (55:08):
was really, it leaves it a little bit more open.
Like you start with noticingwhat are the sensations in my
body.
It helps you get really present.
You can drop into a differentlevel in your nervous system,
what are you noticing?
Are you

Leah (55:20):
Noticing frustration.
You,

Willow (55:21):
tightness?
Are you noticing anger?
Are you

Leah (55:24):
you notice love and

Willow (55:26):
and openness?
You know, and then naming thosethings so that you have your
finger on the pulse of what'sgoing on inside of, from that
place communicating, her wordwas negotiating.
Um, which isn't the sexiest ofwords, but she did say that that
too.
But, you know, it is like,relationships can be such a
negotiation, you know, it'slike, this is what I'm bringing,

(55:48):
that's what you're bringing andhow can we, um, you know, come
together in a cohesive way.

Leah (55:54):
And I was really, uh, pleased to get the approval of
my, um, uh, I, I can get to ayes if I get this, that, and the
other thing, like to askyourself what do I need to have
a enthusiastic Yes.
To be able to provide that?

Willow (56:12):
that technique, you brought up a, a relationship in
the past that you had to usethat for,

Leah (56:17):
Uhhuh.
Yeah.
And it worked great.
I got a computer, um, I think Igot a trip to Mexico.
It really, really worked.
You know, I'd be like, okay,eight sacred spot sessions, you
know, for this laptop.
It was so fun.
And actually I really, theexcitement of being provided
something that I needed, um,gave me so much more enthusiasm

(56:40):
to show up so much bigger withso much more joy.
It was a really interestingtransaction and I'm so grateful
that there wasn't resentment oneither side because that's my
fear.
You know, people do, and I canunderstand why transactional,
um, too much transactional,transactional things in a
partnership can really leavesomeone feeling sour.

(57:00):
Um, that's.

Willow (57:01):
start like to feel like a business partnership

Leah (57:04):
exactly.

Willow (57:06):
It's, yeah, and I think, you know,

Leah (57:08):
You know, I think in the way that you played with it,
that particular partner was fungame.
Yeah.
Brought you guys close.
I'm curious if you

Willow (57:17):
it at all in your current relationship?

Leah (57:18):
No, because we share everything, you know.
Um, all the money goes to thesame place, so...

Willow (57:25):
It doesn't make sense.
You

Leah (57:26):
Yeah, I, I have, I got the, I have got the access to
the credit cards as much as hedoes, you know what I mean?
So it's not like I need him toprovide for me in that way.
Um,

Willow (57:37):
other way he could provide for you that would make
you, I mean, you're alreadypretty excited to deliver

Leah (57:42):
yeah, it.
Yeah, it's right.
I, yeah, it's different for somereason.
And he doesn't seem to have thesame level of neediness.
And I, I use that word looselybecause I don't, we often use
the word neediness to judge.
Um, and I'm not using it in thiscase to be judgy.
But this other partner had moreneeds and wants for more sexual

(58:07):
stuff.
And so sometimes, um, I justdidn't want to, I wasn't in the
mood and so I had to come upwith something to help, to
transform that and tr uh,transcend that.
And then this just worked.
And we weren't living in ashared household.
It wasn't like, yeah, yeah,yeah.

Willow (58:25):
Yeah, you're gonna, um, learn with Susan and you're in
partnership looking and somesupport, check out her retreats
because they sound amazing.

Leah (58:35):
They do.
I mean, I even thought I, Imight be fun to go do something
like that with Matt.
I mean, it just seems like shejust gives so many skills and
communication, which is likethe, the most important thing
when it comes to having bettersex is being able to talk about
it and have some space beingheld.
So you can say the things thatyou've been afraid to say.

(58:56):
You can take some of thoserisks.
Um, that, that I'm really washappy with the way she answered
that question.

Willow (59:02):
Yeah, that was great.
All right, y'all,

Leah (59:05):
All right.
You know what you need to donow?
You guys is You need tosubscribe my love.
Yes.

Willow (59:13):
like, and share, and we will see you in the comments.

Leah (59:17):
Yeah.

Willow (59:17):
you thought about our interview with Susan Taylor.

Leah (59:20):
Okay.
Love, love, love.

Announcer (59:22):
Thanks for tuning in.
This episode was hosted byTantric Sex Master Coach and
positive psychology facilitator,Leah Piper, as well as by
Chinese and Functional Medicinedoctor and Taoist Taxology
teacher, Dr.
Willow Brown.
Don't forget your comments, likesubscribes and suggestions
matter.
Let's realize this new worldtogether.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Susan Taylor: Stop Blaming Your Partner’s Libido - Why the "High vs Low Sex Drive" Myth Is Destroying Your Relationship | #144