July 16, 2025 • 28 mins
In this episode of The Shift: Voices of Prevention, we sit down with Jessica Moyer, Senior Principal Strategist at the FrameWorks Institute, to explore what it truly means to reframe how we support children and families.
Jessica takes us beyond the surface of policy and practice into the deeper cultural narratives that shape our systems—examining how reactive, individualistic approaches can be transformed into proactive, community-rooted solutions. She shares powerful insights on the role of language, equity, and storytelling in shaping a prevention-first future.
From embedding family voice in policy to building grassroots partnerships that shift mindsets, this episode is a call to lead with trust, curiosity, and collective care. Whether you’re a practitioner, policymaker, or advocate, you’ll walk away with renewed clarity and purpose.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_02 (00:09):
This is The Shift: Voices of Prevention, a podcast
from Prevent Child Abuse Americawhere we explore bold ideas,
cultural change, and what ittruly means to support children
and families.
Join us to change the narrativeone conversation at a time.
Today's show is brought to youby PCA America's 2025 National
(00:30):
Conference.
Hosted in Portland, Oregon,August 12th through August 14th,
the transformative three-dayconference features three
keynote speakers and more than70 workshops that dive into the
key drivers of change.
From innovative programs andpractices to family-focused
policies, cutting-edge research,and public awareness and
engagement strategies, theconference is designed to push
(00:51):
the field toward upstreamprevention and creating a future
where every child and family canthrive.
To be in the room when changehappens, visit
preventchabuse.org.
Hello and welcome to the ShiftVoices of Prevention, a podcast
by Prevent Child Abuse America.
(01:11):
I'm your host, Nathan Fink, andfor this 2025 conference
preview, I'm excited to bejoined by Jessica Moyer, Senior
Principal Strategist atFrameworks Institute, to explore
how cultural narratives shapeand can lead to systems that are
more equitable, supportive, andhealing.
Jess, thank you so much forjoining the show.
SPEAKER_00 (01:29):
Thanks for having me on, Nathan.
I'm looking forward to theconversation.
SPEAKER_02 (01:32):
I have to say, as a start, that the idea of shifting
cultural narratives is quite anundertaking for a few reasons.
So it might be best to startsimply.
When we talk about culturalframes through which we view the
world, what exactly do we mean?
SPEAKER_00 (01:49):
I love that setup actually, because you're right.
What we're talking about is kindof an ambitious endeavor.
And what we're seeking to changeare things that are really
entrenched, really embedded.
I mean, culture doesn't movequickly.
Maybe opinions do, attitudes do,but culture changes much more
slowly.
Takes a lot of effort, a lot ofof time, a lot of um a lot of
(02:13):
different factors kind ofworking together.
We we so we maybe a good placeto start is we think about um
wanting to shift culturalmindsets.
So mindsets are those deeplyheld kind of um latent, sort of
default patterns in thinking.
They're they're different frompublic opinions because we're
(02:35):
not always even aware that we'reholding them.
They're sort of kind of lenseson the world that we share that
influence how we see the world,how we process new information.
And they are durable, like thethe same ones have been around
for a really long time.
They're kind of ingrained in ourculture.
Um we have we hold a lot ofdifferent ones.
We hold a lot of differentmindsets at the same time,
(02:56):
sometimes even conflictingmindsets.
And, you know, we can bethinking through one, activating
one in a particular moment, andthen in the next moment
activating a different one.
So there's there are a lot of umoptions to work to work with
there.
And I think um part of the workof shifting culture, kind of
creating social change is aboutunderstanding that cultural
(03:19):
landscape, understanding whatwhat are the different mindsets
that we share and which ones areproductive in a particular
moment, which ones do we want tokind of cultivate and and
activate and cue up and utilize,and which are the ones that are
holding us back, which are theones that are um maybe being
activated by default, but notreally helping us, which ones
are unproductive, and how do westeer clear of those?
(03:40):
And we do think of it in termsof kind of like we love a good
explanatory metaphor at first.
We we we think of it as kind oflike tilling the soil for social
change.
So it's about laying thegroundwork that will enable all
kinds of decisions and andcollective actions that will
have an impact, but the changethat we're seeking is slow and
(04:02):
it happens over a long period oftime.
SPEAKER_02 (04:05):
Now it seems like we're gonna get into a
conversation that has a lot ofdefinitions, a lot of different
things going on.
So maybe let's restart with justa quick terminology set.
So we have mindsets, we havestories that we talk about, we
have narratives, and then wehave this thing called frames or
(04:25):
framing.
Can you quickly go through eachof those?
SPEAKER_00 (04:28):
Sure.
Yeah, those are four good onesto parse out.
So I sort of touched onmindsets.
I think that that's a big one.
Those are those patterns inshared thinking as a culture
that sort of we think of them ashow we think.
Mindsets reflect how we thinkrather than what we think.
They're not topical, they kindof are models of reasoning that
we draw on to make sense ofparticular topics.
(04:49):
So that's mindsets.
We can think of narratives aspatterns as well, but patterns
in discourse, patterns intalking.
Narratives and mindsets oftenkind of reflect one another,
like how we're thinking, thepatterns in thought and patterns
in discourse.
You can see a lot ofsimilarities in those two
things, but um, it's helpful todistinguish them too,
(05:09):
particularly when we're talkingabout which ones are levers for
social change.
So that's narratives, and thennarratives are made up of lots
of different stories.
So narratives are kind ofpatterns in stories.
And when we tell stories, we aresometimes intentionally, but
often unintentionally, kind ofreinforcing particular
narratives, or in other cases,contesting particular narratives
(05:32):
by the kinds of stories that wetell and the ways that we tell
those stories.
Um, and then framing has to dowith that the way that we tell
stories, the way that we presentinformation.
Framing involves lots ofdifferent choices in how we
communicate.
And anytime we're communicating,we're framing.
So framing involves things likewhat do we put into a particular
(05:52):
message?
What are the things that wedon't say?
What tone do we adopt?
What values do we appeal to?
How do we explain particularconcepts?
What examples do we draw on tomake a particular point or to
explain a particular concept?
So framing is sort of lots ofthose little decisions, millions
of them that we're making allthe time, that have to do with
(06:13):
the kind of packaging andpresentation of information.
And framing affects how we tellour stories, which affects which
narratives we reinforce or orwhich ones we challenge.
Um and that has a relationshipwith how we think collectively
with our shared culturalmindsets.
SPEAKER_02 (06:30):
So it's exactly.
Now I love the idea that youembedded in framing choice,
right?
We are making a series ofchoices.
This is an active thing thatwe're kind of undertaking.
It's clear then, with regards toframes, that they're constructed
by parts, but this is all partof our human experience.
So is there a way to untanglehow we as individuals both exist
(06:53):
with frames, but then also usethose to perpetuate larger
cultural narratives?
SPEAKER_00 (06:59):
Yeah, I mean, I I love that you brought that up
because I think a big part ofthe work that we do at
frameworks is about beingintentional in those choices,
which means as individuals,making decisions.
We we talk about framing as aset of choices, but a lot of
times we're making those choiceswithout realizing that we're
making them, or making themwithout realizing what impact
(07:20):
they'll have.
And a big part of beingstrategic as a communicator,
being intentional in how weframe is understanding both what
the landscape is that we'renavigating, but also what the
what the frame effects will be,what the implications of those
different choices will be.
And then making the choices thathave the, you know, the effects
(07:42):
that we want them to have.
So our messages and ourcommunications are interpreted
in the ways that we intend.
And I think a big part of, Imean, the it's the reason that
we do empirical research is togenerate some data on.
There's something that's kindof, I don't know if it's
counterintuitive butunintuitive, certainly, about
lots of the different framingchoices that we make.
(08:03):
There are lots of things that weframe in a particular way,
emphasize in a particular way.
Um, there are lots of sort ofgo-to tactics that we that feel
right when we use them ascommunicators that just don't
work in the way that they seemlike they should or the way that
we intend.
So it's it is really helpful tobe able to develop frames to
(08:25):
kind of put together somehypotheses about what we think
is likely to make sense in termsof how we talk about a
particular issue and then testthem, you know, put them through
focus groups, take them out intothe field, ask people to use
them themselves to respond tothem, and then see does it
actually work to talk about asocial issue in this way?
(08:46):
If we make this comparison, doesthat resonate with people?
Does it reinforce currentthinking?
Does it have the potential toopen up a new way of thinking
about that issue?
Um, and then once we've got somedata, we can make those framing
choices intentionally and withpurpose and with some confidence
that we'll have the impact thatwe want to have.
SPEAKER_02 (09:06):
Yeah.
Now, are there any examples ofclassic North American frames
that we are kind of ride or diethat seem to continue to crop
up?
SPEAKER_00 (09:14):
Yes.
Um, I mean, probably a good oneto mention because it is so
easily activated, it's reallydominant.
It kind of comes into play interms of shaping our thinking,
no matter what issue or topicwe're talking about.
But it's the mindset ofindividualism.
Uh it's a it's a mindset thatjust sort of assumes that
(09:35):
whatever outcomes we'reexperiencing can be traced back
to the decisions and thebehaviors and the actions or
inactions of individual people.
So it's it's a mindset that kindof obscures the role of context
and structural, those structuralfactors that actually shape
outcomes and also shape thedecisions that individuals make.
(09:57):
Because even the behaviors ofindividual people are an
interaction between those folksand the surround their
surroundings and the sort of theincentive structure that they're
exposed to, the things that makeit easier to make one decision
over another decision.
But when we're thinking throughthis mindset of individualism,
it's really hard to see theimportance of that context and
(10:19):
those contextual factors.
And it means, I mean, we're herebecause we're we're talking
about children and well-beingand how to ensure that children
and families can thrive.
That mindset comes into playwhen we're talking about
children because it's so easyfor us to, as a culture, to sort
of by default assume that theoutcomes of a particular child
(10:42):
are directly attributable towhat the particular individuals
in that child's life did ordidn't do, most notably the
parents, right?
What what did the parents dothat they shouldn't have done,
or what didn't they do that theyshould have done to lead to
better outcomes?
And it perpetuates cycles ofblame.
And also that mindset ishazardous because it kind of
(11:04):
pushes out of the discussion.
It's off our radar how we canmake better decisions
collectively, what kind ofpolicies we need to have in
place to create supports forfamilies and for parents and
direct caregivers.
That individualism mindset makesall of that, those important
contextual factors and policydecisions harder to see.
SPEAKER_02 (11:25):
Now, this is a topic that you're going to be
presenting on at the 2025Prevent Child Abuse America
Conference.
And so I'm so glad you broughtthis up.
What has the narrative been thatwe've told ourselves about
caring for children?
SPEAKER_00 (11:39):
Great question.
There's one big idea that haskind of sucked up all of the
oxygen.
There are lots of mindsets.
I'll say that first.
There are lots of mindsets thatcan get activated when we're
talking about children andfamilies.
And I can mention some of theother ones too that are at play
and kind of in the mix.
But the big one, the one that issort of at the forefront of our
thinking as a culture, is theidea that care matters most.
(12:04):
We sometimes talk about this asthe centrality of care mindset,
but it's the idea that that'swhat kids need.
You know, above and beyond allelse, children need to be loved
and cared for by the adults whoare responsible for them.
So it's really closely relatedto that individualism mindset
that I talked about.
That's kind of more general andcan be applied to lots of
(12:25):
different things, but it comesinto play here in terms of the
focus on care, but also thissort of the particular
conception of care.
So this mindset involves care ina s, in the specific sense of
referring to interpersonalrelationships, the care that an
individual adult provides to anindividual child.
(12:46):
And obviously that is superimportant.
I don't want to diminish that atall.
I don't think anyone would arguethat that's essential.
And that probably is the mostimportant thing in any child's
life.
The sort of challenge here, interms of how we think about kind
of um our as a culture and interms of public discourse around
(13:06):
caring for children, whatchildren need to thrive, is if
we're so focused on thatinterpersonal relationship
between a child and the adultwho's responsible for them.
I mean, parents are the onesthat come to mind most sort of
immediately, but the the directcaregivers in that child's life.
So also, you know, other familymembers or a child care
(13:26):
provider, a teacher, if we'reonly thinking about what
children need through the lensof those individual adults,
we're missing all that kind ofcontext that I talked about
earlier.
We're missing, we're we're sortof unable to see how children
also need things like access tohealthy, affordable food, to
(13:46):
stable, healthy housing, to um,you know, clean water, clean
environments, to green parks, umplaces to run around and be
active, all kinds of things,right?
All kinds of decisions that wemake as a society impact the
lives of children in significantways.
Um, but that sort of carematters most mindset obscures
(14:08):
all of those other factors, kindof pushes them out of view.
SPEAKER_02 (14:11):
It feels like what you're saying is we've developed
this myopic view that actuallyhas everything to do with this
pinpoint on the individual.
And then we're kind of circlingthis little periscope to
individual problems or evenindividual crises, right?
Like this care matters mostidea.
I get it.
My I have two young sons who arein child care and there's a
(14:32):
child care crisis.
So we're trying to find good,affordable care.
And so we kind of wheel ourperiscope over there and zoom in
on it as if it were theindividual factor that's gonna
solve it without saying, no,this is actually a constellation
of interconnected points.
So we have to back our purviewup.
But, and there is a questionhere, as you're backing away
(14:56):
from a singularity,individualistic like point, are
there any fears that you'regonna be losing that particular
focus, which we know is good, aswe back away?
Because you're not saying that'snot important.
You're saying that is importantin context with.
SPEAKER_00 (15:14):
Yes, yeah, yeah.
You totally get it.
And you described it reallywell.
And I think that is exactly whatwe need to do.
Is it's not a instead of this,let's focus on that.
It absolutely is we want toexpand the lens.
So it's yes, absolutely, youknow, parents, direct care
providers, teachers areessential and they exist within
(15:36):
a broader context.
And and part of um shifting thenarrative here is about
connecting some of those dots inthe constellation, like you
described.
I love that expression.
Like it is really about, I mean,the well-being of children is
inextricably tied to thewell-being of those other adults
in their lives, which isinextricably tied to all the
connections that they have andall the environments that they,
(15:59):
you know, occupy and live in andand all of the it really is
about being more informedcollectively about the
interconnectedness of all of allof those factors.
It's not at all aboutdiminishing anyone's role.
In fact, it's really about umcultivating a sense that we're
all caregivers.
(16:20):
We we all play a role in umensuring that we make the kinds
of decisions as a society thatsupport well-being for children
and families, which and the samekinds of policies that you know
support children's well-beingsupport all of our well-being.
We all are better off when wehave green spaces and parks,
(16:41):
when we have, you know,legislation that cuts down on
gun violence, when we haverobust public transportation
systems.
None of those things are kind ofchallenging the importance or
the autonomy of directcaregivers.
In fact, those things make thelives of caregivers much easier.
It's about supporting caregivingand recognizing the networks,
(17:03):
uh, the sort of web that careactually looks like.
SPEAKER_02 (17:06):
Yep, I love that idea because really it's about
the spaces between, because youdo have these pinpoints of, you
know, the social determinants ofhealth and things like that that
we need to work on, obviously,food security for families.
We need to work on that carethat you're talking about,
health outcomes.
But getting between those isreally where the stuff of
community is made of.
(17:27):
Now, since we kind of approachthis issue through that
individualism lens, are thereexamples then of how that has
actually created kind of one-offsystems that are really not as
helpful as we think they are?
SPEAKER_00 (17:44):
Yeah, I mean, I think there are tons of examples
of that because there absolutelyis a relationship between those
mindsets, how we think aboutsocial issues, how we view the
world, and the kinds ofdecisions that we make together.
Um, I mean, I think a lot ofwhat we see now in terms of
calls for like dismantling theDepartment of Education, that's
about uh, and and you know,there are other, I was
(18:06):
mentioning there are lots ofother mindsets here.
One that's kind of related isthe this idea that the role of
government should be limited asmuch as possible.
Government kind of gets in theway.
That's a latent mindset that caneasily be queued up, and and
that's obviously at work theretoo.
But it's connected toindividuals and it's connected
to the idea that individualresponsibility is what matters
(18:27):
most, and we should let peoplemake decisions for themselves
that are best for them.
So that I think that you know,calls for dismantling the
Department of Education are issort of a policy uh example of
how this mindset informs thedecisions that we make that
shape society.
Um, and uh and even you know,cutting back Medicaid, I think
(18:51):
we can think about lots of umlots of ways that policies
reflect the individualismmindset and also that cultural
attitudes reflect it becausethere's a lot of when we talk
about, for example, disparitiesin children's outcomes, there's
a lot of blame put on theindividual parents of those
(19:13):
children and also thecommunities.
When we're talking aboutdisparities between groups, that
that conversation can easilykind of slide into a blame on
particular communities orparticular groups for not making
good enough decisions that leadto better outcomes for their
children.
Obviously, those are toxic andkind of harmful ways of
approaching the issue that thatgo up against what we know will
(19:37):
make a difference, will make apositive difference.
The kinds of programs andservices and policies that will
address disparities and improveoutcomes across the board, those
are harder when we're kind ofactivating this individualism
mindset.
SPEAKER_02 (19:51):
Your session toward a new narrative, right, of what
it means to care for childrenindicates that there's something
that we could or even should betelling ourselves about the care
for children.
SPEAKER_00 (20:02):
Yeah, let's definitely talk about what we
can do, what what works here.
And I think the good news isthere are lots of things that
are effective that that canwork, that can help, that can
move the conversation in apositive direction.
Um, and it does go back to whatI I sound like a broken record a
little bit, but we've got wehave access to lots of different
(20:22):
mindsets.
Some are more dominant thanothers.
The ones that are most dominanttend to be the ones that sort of
reflect and reinforce the statusquo.
But the less dominant mindsetsthat we also have available to
us that we all are influenced byand hold, those alternative
mindsets can be activated to uhencourage us to think critically
(20:43):
about the way things are and toto want them to be different, to
think about how we might changethem and make them different and
better.
Um, so like in addition tohaving this individualism
mindset, we also have access tothe mindset that contexts
matter, that our surroundingsshape who we are and who we
become and and what weexperience.
(21:05):
So we can activate that mindset.
And actually, we can even drawon the this sort of concentrated
focus on the necessity of care,that that kind of care matters
most mindset.
We actually, in our testing, um,we tested a lot of different
sort of framing strategies tosee how to work with this care
(21:25):
matters most mindset, how tobreak it open and help people
see kind of beyond thoseinterpersonal direct caregivers.
We we we tested what it would belike to frame in terms of kind
of yes, care is important andthese other things are also
important.
What we found to be mosteffective in the end was to sort
of redefine care itself, todefine care much more broadly,
(21:49):
to define care as something thatis a collective endeavor.
And actually the good news isthat that really is effective.
That has a lot of potential, andit's something that has positive
frame effects across thepolitical spectrum, across lots
of different demographic groups,across regions.
There's it kind of makes senseto folks that we we can easily
(22:10):
kind of take up a caregiverdisposition.
We can kind of think about,yeah, I want what's best for
kids, for all kids.
We can be prompted to thinkbeyond sort of quote unquote our
own kids.
So as communicators, as folkswho wanna, who are working to
productively shift culture andshift the policy landscape and
(22:30):
move things forward, we can beintentional about our framing
and um really kind of lean intothe those collective aspects of
care.
So we can, for example, we cantalk about particular policies
or particular programs as formsof caregiving and kind of pull
on that lexicon of care.
We can talk about um, you know,raise up, provide for, nourish,
(22:55):
you know, use the differenttypes of words that kind of um
get at the that idea of care andhow we care for kids.
We can use all of thosedifferent kinds of words and
phrases to talk about thosecollective actions, the policy
level, structure level decisionsthat we know are needed and
would be helpful.
And then and kind of vice versa,talk about when we're talking
(23:18):
about caring for kids, beingsure to pull in some of those
policy examples and kind ofthere's this um tendency to want
to give people something thatkind of brings the issue home
for them, puts it in theirliving room, so to speak.
The more effective strategy hereis actually to prompt folks to
get outside of their livingroom, to see themselves as part
(23:41):
of the broader community,including parents and direct
caregivers.
We can, that's another strategy.
We can tell stories that putparents in context because
parents are responsible fortheir kids, but parents are lots
of other things too.
Parents have jobs, parents walkdown the street, parents have
hobbies, parents want to live ina society that is healthy and
(24:04):
thriving for their kids and forthe themselves and for you know,
it's easy to kind of divide upsociety between and think about
discrete groups, parents andnon-parents or children versus
adults, but the more we can kindof draw connections between all
those different folks and helpus see our shared interests, our
(24:26):
shared kind of fates.
Um that's a really effectivestrategy for for building a
collective sense ofresponsibility to care for kids
and also collective efficacy,like a sense that we we can make
a difference here.
We can all be caregivers, we canall be effective caregivers and
make a positive difference inthe lives of all children.
(24:46):
We all kind of want to feel likewe have that potential.
SPEAKER_02 (24:49):
And I get it.
I absolutely get the the impulseto try to re-explain the path
we're on to the self.
Because as we're kind of goingdown our paths, we've been told
this story about our ownindividualism forever, so much
so that we're willing to putsingle labels on ourselves,
right?
Like I'm a dad right now, that'swhat I'm doing.
(25:10):
I'm a this right now, that'swhat I'm doing.
And the stories that I think wetell ourselves self-perpetuate
the direction we're headed.
So it's hard to stop.
It's hard to think about thatthe fact that our cultural
narratives might not actually beworking for us.
It's hard to face a differentdirection and say, you know
(25:31):
what, we might have to eitherback up or go lateral a bit to
repave something that works forall of us.
So I understand that.
And of course, you're gonna bein Oregon at the PCA 2025
conference.
Um, I'm curious because I knowthat people out there are gonna
be approaching not only theirown frames, but the
(25:51):
conversations that they wouldlike to have with others about
broadening frames that work forall children and families across
the country.
Do you have any advice for themwhen approaching this particular
endeavor?
SPEAKER_00 (26:05):
I guess I would say there are three things to keep
in mind and to sort of um tobring into communications, which
there are lots of different waysto do it, but three sort of
guiding principles that anyonecan use and that are broadly
applicable.
So the first one is just tothink about and talk about care
as something that is collective.
(26:26):
It's shared, it's a sharedendeavor.
The second one is to think andtalk about care as something
that is inclusive, meaning weneed to talk about all children,
children in every community fromevery demographic group, which
is really different fromappealing to folks to think
about what's in the bestinterest of the children that
(26:48):
they are responsible for.
So taking an inclusive approachto all of our children, all of
society's children.
And then um the third one isthat care is expansive because,
and you you kind of touched onthis a little bit earlier, but
it's so easy to think about sortof children's issues and and to
kind of marginalize what mattersfor children or what decisions
(27:12):
we think about impactingchildren.
But if we think about caring forchildren in a way that's
expansive, it means everything'son the table.
We need to kind of take thatlens to every decision that we
make together.
How will this impact children?
And kind of think through thatquestion.
Because all the decisions wemake about society have some
impact on children in some way,and in the same way they impact
(27:34):
all of us.
They're social issues and thatthey touch all of our lives.
So expanding that concept ofcare to something that's
collective, inclusive, andexpansive, I think is something
that everybody can do.
SPEAKER_02 (27:46):
Well, Jessica, I could do this for hours, if not
days on end.
But thank you, thank you, thankyou for coming on the show
today.
I appreciate the conversation.
SPEAKER_00 (27:55):
Thanks so much, Nathan.
SPEAKER_02 (27:56):
And you can invite upstream solutions into your
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Join us to create an ecosystemwhere children and families live
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This is The Shift: Voices of Prevention, a podcast
from Prevent Child Abuse Americawhere we explore bold ideas,
cultural change, and what ittruly means to support children
and families.
Join us to change the narrativeone conversation at a time.
Today's show is brought to youby PCA America's 2025 National
(00:30):
Conference.
Hosted in Portland, Oregon,August 12th through August 14th,
the transformative three-dayconference features three
keynote speakers and more than70 workshops that dive into the
key drivers of change.
From innovative programs andpractices to family-focused
policies, cutting-edge research,and public awareness and
engagement strategies, theconference is designed to push
(00:51):
the field toward upstreamprevention and creating a future
where every child and family canthrive.
To be in the room when changehappens, visit
preventchabuse.org.
Hello and welcome to the ShiftVoices of Prevention, a podcast
by Prevent Child Abuse America.
(01:11):
I'm your host, Nathan Fink, andfor this 2025 conference
preview, I'm excited to bejoined by Jessica Moyer, Senior
Principal Strategist atFrameworks Institute, to explore
how cultural narratives shapeand can lead to systems that are
more equitable, supportive, andhealing.
Jess, thank you so much forjoining the show.
SPEAKER_00 (01:29):
Thanks for having me on, Nathan.
I'm looking forward to theconversation.
SPEAKER_02 (01:32):
I have to say, as a start, that the idea of shifting
cultural narratives is quite anundertaking for a few reasons.
So it might be best to startsimply.
When we talk about culturalframes through which we view the
world, what exactly do we mean?
SPEAKER_00 (01:49):
I love that setup actually, because you're right.
What we're talking about is kindof an ambitious endeavor.
And what we're seeking to changeare things that are really
entrenched, really embedded.
I mean, culture doesn't movequickly.
Maybe opinions do, attitudes do,but culture changes much more
slowly.
Takes a lot of effort, a lot ofof time, a lot of um a lot of
(02:13):
different factors kind ofworking together.
We we so we maybe a good placeto start is we think about um
wanting to shift culturalmindsets.
So mindsets are those deeplyheld kind of um latent, sort of
default patterns in thinking.
They're they're different frompublic opinions because we're
(02:35):
not always even aware that we'reholding them.
They're sort of kind of lenseson the world that we share that
influence how we see the world,how we process new information.
And they are durable, like thethe same ones have been around
for a really long time.
They're kind of ingrained in ourculture.
Um we have we hold a lot ofdifferent ones.
We hold a lot of differentmindsets at the same time,
(02:56):
sometimes even conflictingmindsets.
And, you know, we can bethinking through one, activating
one in a particular moment, andthen in the next moment
activating a different one.
So there's there are a lot of umoptions to work to work with
there.
And I think um part of the workof shifting culture, kind of
creating social change is aboutunderstanding that cultural
(03:19):
landscape, understanding whatwhat are the different mindsets
that we share and which ones areproductive in a particular
moment, which ones do we want tokind of cultivate and and
activate and cue up and utilize,and which are the ones that are
holding us back, which are theones that are um maybe being
activated by default, but notreally helping us, which ones
are unproductive, and how do westeer clear of those?
(03:40):
And we do think of it in termsof kind of like we love a good
explanatory metaphor at first.
We we we think of it as kind oflike tilling the soil for social
change.
So it's about laying thegroundwork that will enable all
kinds of decisions and andcollective actions that will
have an impact, but the changethat we're seeking is slow and
(04:02):
it happens over a long period oftime.
SPEAKER_02 (04:05):
Now it seems like we're gonna get into a
conversation that has a lot ofdefinitions, a lot of different
things going on.
So maybe let's restart with justa quick terminology set.
So we have mindsets, we havestories that we talk about, we
have narratives, and then wehave this thing called frames or
(04:25):
framing.
Can you quickly go through eachof those?
SPEAKER_00 (04:28):
Sure.
Yeah, those are four good onesto parse out.
So I sort of touched onmindsets.
I think that that's a big one.
Those are those patterns inshared thinking as a culture
that sort of we think of them ashow we think.
Mindsets reflect how we thinkrather than what we think.
They're not topical, they kindof are models of reasoning that
we draw on to make sense ofparticular topics.
(04:49):
So that's mindsets.
We can think of narratives aspatterns as well, but patterns
in discourse, patterns intalking.
Narratives and mindsets oftenkind of reflect one another,
like how we're thinking, thepatterns in thought and patterns
in discourse.
You can see a lot ofsimilarities in those two
things, but um, it's helpful todistinguish them too,
(05:09):
particularly when we're talkingabout which ones are levers for
social change.
So that's narratives, and thennarratives are made up of lots
of different stories.
So narratives are kind ofpatterns in stories.
And when we tell stories, we aresometimes intentionally, but
often unintentionally, kind ofreinforcing particular
narratives, or in other cases,contesting particular narratives
(05:32):
by the kinds of stories that wetell and the ways that we tell
those stories.
Um, and then framing has to dowith that the way that we tell
stories, the way that we presentinformation.
Framing involves lots ofdifferent choices in how we
communicate.
And anytime we're communicating,we're framing.
So framing involves things likewhat do we put into a particular
(05:52):
message?
What are the things that wedon't say?
What tone do we adopt?
What values do we appeal to?
How do we explain particularconcepts?
What examples do we draw on tomake a particular point or to
explain a particular concept?
So framing is sort of lots ofthose little decisions, millions
of them that we're making allthe time, that have to do with
(06:13):
the kind of packaging andpresentation of information.
And framing affects how we tellour stories, which affects which
narratives we reinforce or orwhich ones we challenge.
Um and that has a relationshipwith how we think collectively
with our shared culturalmindsets.
SPEAKER_02 (06:30):
So it's exactly.
Now I love the idea that youembedded in framing choice,
right?
We are making a series ofchoices.
This is an active thing thatwe're kind of undertaking.
It's clear then, with regards toframes, that they're constructed
by parts, but this is all partof our human experience.
So is there a way to untanglehow we as individuals both exist
(06:53):
with frames, but then also usethose to perpetuate larger
cultural narratives?
SPEAKER_00 (06:59):
Yeah, I mean, I I love that you brought that up
because I think a big part ofthe work that we do at
frameworks is about beingintentional in those choices,
which means as individuals,making decisions.
We we talk about framing as aset of choices, but a lot of
times we're making those choiceswithout realizing that we're
making them, or making themwithout realizing what impact
(07:20):
they'll have.
And a big part of beingstrategic as a communicator,
being intentional in how weframe is understanding both what
the landscape is that we'renavigating, but also what the
what the frame effects will be,what the implications of those
different choices will be.
And then making the choices thathave the, you know, the effects
(07:42):
that we want them to have.
So our messages and ourcommunications are interpreted
in the ways that we intend.
And I think a big part of, Imean, the it's the reason that
we do empirical research is togenerate some data on.
There's something that's kindof, I don't know if it's
counterintuitive butunintuitive, certainly, about
lots of the different framingchoices that we make.
(08:03):
There are lots of things that weframe in a particular way,
emphasize in a particular way.
Um, there are lots of sort ofgo-to tactics that we that feel
right when we use them ascommunicators that just don't
work in the way that they seemlike they should or the way that
we intend.
So it's it is really helpful tobe able to develop frames to
(08:25):
kind of put together somehypotheses about what we think
is likely to make sense in termsof how we talk about a
particular issue and then testthem, you know, put them through
focus groups, take them out intothe field, ask people to use
them themselves to respond tothem, and then see does it
actually work to talk about asocial issue in this way?
(08:46):
If we make this comparison, doesthat resonate with people?
Does it reinforce currentthinking?
Does it have the potential toopen up a new way of thinking
about that issue?
Um, and then once we've got somedata, we can make those framing
choices intentionally and withpurpose and with some confidence
that we'll have the impact thatwe want to have.
SPEAKER_02 (09:06):
Yeah.
Now, are there any examples ofclassic North American frames
that we are kind of ride or diethat seem to continue to crop
up?
SPEAKER_00 (09:14):
Yes.
Um, I mean, probably a good oneto mention because it is so
easily activated, it's reallydominant.
It kind of comes into play interms of shaping our thinking,
no matter what issue or topicwe're talking about.
But it's the mindset ofindividualism.
Uh it's a it's a mindset thatjust sort of assumes that
(09:35):
whatever outcomes we'reexperiencing can be traced back
to the decisions and thebehaviors and the actions or
inactions of individual people.
So it's it's a mindset that kindof obscures the role of context
and structural, those structuralfactors that actually shape
outcomes and also shape thedecisions that individuals make.
(09:57):
Because even the behaviors ofindividual people are an
interaction between those folksand the surround their
surroundings and the sort of theincentive structure that they're
exposed to, the things that makeit easier to make one decision
over another decision.
But when we're thinking throughthis mindset of individualism,
it's really hard to see theimportance of that context and
(10:19):
those contextual factors.
And it means, I mean, we're herebecause we're we're talking
about children and well-beingand how to ensure that children
and families can thrive.
That mindset comes into playwhen we're talking about
children because it's so easyfor us to, as a culture, to sort
of by default assume that theoutcomes of a particular child
(10:42):
are directly attributable towhat the particular individuals
in that child's life did ordidn't do, most notably the
parents, right?
What what did the parents dothat they shouldn't have done,
or what didn't they do that theyshould have done to lead to
better outcomes?
And it perpetuates cycles ofblame.
And also that mindset ishazardous because it kind of
(11:04):
pushes out of the discussion.
It's off our radar how we canmake better decisions
collectively, what kind ofpolicies we need to have in
place to create supports forfamilies and for parents and
direct caregivers.
That individualism mindset makesall of that, those important
contextual factors and policydecisions harder to see.
SPEAKER_02 (11:25):
Now, this is a topic that you're going to be
presenting on at the 2025Prevent Child Abuse America
Conference.
And so I'm so glad you broughtthis up.
What has the narrative been thatwe've told ourselves about
caring for children?
SPEAKER_00 (11:39):
Great question.
There's one big idea that haskind of sucked up all of the
oxygen.
There are lots of mindsets.
I'll say that first.
There are lots of mindsets thatcan get activated when we're
talking about children andfamilies.
And I can mention some of theother ones too that are at play
and kind of in the mix.
But the big one, the one that issort of at the forefront of our
thinking as a culture, is theidea that care matters most.
(12:04):
We sometimes talk about this asthe centrality of care mindset,
but it's the idea that that'swhat kids need.
You know, above and beyond allelse, children need to be loved
and cared for by the adults whoare responsible for them.
So it's really closely relatedto that individualism mindset
that I talked about.
That's kind of more general andcan be applied to lots of
(12:25):
different things, but it comesinto play here in terms of the
focus on care, but also thissort of the particular
conception of care.
So this mindset involves care ina s, in the specific sense of
referring to interpersonalrelationships, the care that an
individual adult provides to anindividual child.
(12:46):
And obviously that is superimportant.
I don't want to diminish that atall.
I don't think anyone would arguethat that's essential.
And that probably is the mostimportant thing in any child's
life.
The sort of challenge here, interms of how we think about kind
of um our as a culture and interms of public discourse around
(13:06):
caring for children, whatchildren need to thrive, is if
we're so focused on thatinterpersonal relationship
between a child and the adultwho's responsible for them.
I mean, parents are the onesthat come to mind most sort of
immediately, but the the directcaregivers in that child's life.
So also, you know, other familymembers or a child care
(13:26):
provider, a teacher, if we'reonly thinking about what
children need through the lensof those individual adults,
we're missing all that kind ofcontext that I talked about
earlier.
We're missing, we're we're sortof unable to see how children
also need things like access tohealthy, affordable food, to
(13:46):
stable, healthy housing, to um,you know, clean water, clean
environments, to green parks, umplaces to run around and be
active, all kinds of things,right?
All kinds of decisions that wemake as a society impact the
lives of children in significantways.
Um, but that sort of carematters most mindset obscures
(14:08):
all of those other factors, kindof pushes them out of view.
SPEAKER_02 (14:11):
It feels like what you're saying is we've developed
this myopic view that actuallyhas everything to do with this
pinpoint on the individual.
And then we're kind of circlingthis little periscope to
individual problems or evenindividual crises, right?
Like this care matters mostidea.
I get it.
My I have two young sons who arein child care and there's a
(14:32):
child care crisis.
So we're trying to find good,affordable care.
And so we kind of wheel ourperiscope over there and zoom in
on it as if it were theindividual factor that's gonna
solve it without saying, no,this is actually a constellation
of interconnected points.
So we have to back our purviewup.
But, and there is a questionhere, as you're backing away
(14:56):
from a singularity,individualistic like point, are
there any fears that you'regonna be losing that particular
focus, which we know is good, aswe back away?
Because you're not saying that'snot important.
You're saying that is importantin context with.
SPEAKER_00 (15:14):
Yes, yeah, yeah.
You totally get it.
And you described it reallywell.
And I think that is exactly whatwe need to do.
Is it's not a instead of this,let's focus on that.
It absolutely is we want toexpand the lens.
So it's yes, absolutely, youknow, parents, direct care
providers, teachers areessential and they exist within
(15:36):
a broader context.
And and part of um shifting thenarrative here is about
connecting some of those dots inthe constellation, like you
described.
I love that expression.
Like it is really about, I mean,the well-being of children is
inextricably tied to thewell-being of those other adults
in their lives, which isinextricably tied to all the
connections that they have andall the environments that they,
(15:59):
you know, occupy and live in andand all of the it really is
about being more informedcollectively about the
interconnectedness of all of allof those factors.
It's not at all aboutdiminishing anyone's role.
In fact, it's really about umcultivating a sense that we're
all caregivers.
(16:20):
We we all play a role in umensuring that we make the kinds
of decisions as a society thatsupport well-being for children
and families, which and the samekinds of policies that you know
support children's well-beingsupport all of our well-being.
We all are better off when wehave green spaces and parks,
(16:41):
when we have, you know,legislation that cuts down on
gun violence, when we haverobust public transportation
systems.
None of those things are kind ofchallenging the importance or
the autonomy of directcaregivers.
In fact, those things make thelives of caregivers much easier.
It's about supporting caregivingand recognizing the networks,
(17:03):
uh, the sort of web that careactually looks like.
SPEAKER_02 (17:06):
Yep, I love that idea because really it's about
the spaces between, because youdo have these pinpoints of, you
know, the social determinants ofhealth and things like that that
we need to work on, obviously,food security for families.
We need to work on that carethat you're talking about,
health outcomes.
But getting between those isreally where the stuff of
community is made of.
(17:27):
Now, since we kind of approachthis issue through that
individualism lens, are thereexamples then of how that has
actually created kind of one-offsystems that are really not as
helpful as we think they are?
SPEAKER_00 (17:44):
Yeah, I mean, I think there are tons of examples
of that because there absolutelyis a relationship between those
mindsets, how we think aboutsocial issues, how we view the
world, and the kinds ofdecisions that we make together.
Um, I mean, I think a lot ofwhat we see now in terms of
calls for like dismantling theDepartment of Education, that's
about uh, and and you know,there are other, I was
(18:06):
mentioning there are lots ofother mindsets here.
One that's kind of related isthe this idea that the role of
government should be limited asmuch as possible.
Government kind of gets in theway.
That's a latent mindset that caneasily be queued up, and and
that's obviously at work theretoo.
But it's connected toindividuals and it's connected
to the idea that individualresponsibility is what matters
(18:27):
most, and we should let peoplemake decisions for themselves
that are best for them.
So that I think that you know,calls for dismantling the
Department of Education are issort of a policy uh example of
how this mindset informs thedecisions that we make that
shape society.
Um, and uh and even you know,cutting back Medicaid, I think
(18:51):
we can think about lots of umlots of ways that policies
reflect the individualismmindset and also that cultural
attitudes reflect it becausethere's a lot of when we talk
about, for example, disparitiesin children's outcomes, there's
a lot of blame put on theindividual parents of those
(19:13):
children and also thecommunities.
When we're talking aboutdisparities between groups, that
that conversation can easilykind of slide into a blame on
particular communities orparticular groups for not making
good enough decisions that leadto better outcomes for their
children.
Obviously, those are toxic andkind of harmful ways of
approaching the issue that thatgo up against what we know will
(19:37):
make a difference, will make apositive difference.
The kinds of programs andservices and policies that will
address disparities and improveoutcomes across the board, those
are harder when we're kind ofactivating this individualism
mindset.
SPEAKER_02 (19:51):
Your session toward a new narrative, right, of what
it means to care for childrenindicates that there's something
that we could or even should betelling ourselves about the care
for children.
SPEAKER_00 (20:02):
Yeah, let's definitely talk about what we
can do, what what works here.
And I think the good news isthere are lots of things that
are effective that that canwork, that can help, that can
move the conversation in apositive direction.
Um, and it does go back to whatI I sound like a broken record a
little bit, but we've got wehave access to lots of different
(20:22):
mindsets.
Some are more dominant thanothers.
The ones that are most dominanttend to be the ones that sort of
reflect and reinforce the statusquo.
But the less dominant mindsetsthat we also have available to
us that we all are influenced byand hold, those alternative
mindsets can be activated to uhencourage us to think critically
(20:43):
about the way things are and toto want them to be different, to
think about how we might changethem and make them different and
better.
Um, so like in addition tohaving this individualism
mindset, we also have access tothe mindset that contexts
matter, that our surroundingsshape who we are and who we
become and and what weexperience.
(21:05):
So we can activate that mindset.
And actually, we can even drawon the this sort of concentrated
focus on the necessity of care,that that kind of care matters
most mindset.
We actually, in our testing, um,we tested a lot of different
sort of framing strategies tosee how to work with this care
(21:25):
matters most mindset, how tobreak it open and help people
see kind of beyond thoseinterpersonal direct caregivers.
We we we tested what it would belike to frame in terms of kind
of yes, care is important andthese other things are also
important.
What we found to be mosteffective in the end was to sort
of redefine care itself, todefine care much more broadly,
(21:49):
to define care as something thatis a collective endeavor.
And actually the good news isthat that really is effective.
That has a lot of potential, andit's something that has positive
frame effects across thepolitical spectrum, across lots
of different demographic groups,across regions.
There's it kind of makes senseto folks that we we can easily
(22:10):
kind of take up a caregiverdisposition.
We can kind of think about,yeah, I want what's best for
kids, for all kids.
We can be prompted to thinkbeyond sort of quote unquote our
own kids.
So as communicators, as folkswho wanna, who are working to
productively shift culture andshift the policy landscape and
(22:30):
move things forward, we can beintentional about our framing
and um really kind of lean intothe those collective aspects of
care.
So we can, for example, we cantalk about particular policies
or particular programs as formsof caregiving and kind of pull
on that lexicon of care.
We can talk about um, you know,raise up, provide for, nourish,
(22:55):
you know, use the differenttypes of words that kind of um
get at the that idea of care andhow we care for kids.
We can use all of thosedifferent kinds of words and
phrases to talk about thosecollective actions, the policy
level, structure level decisionsthat we know are needed and
would be helpful.
And then and kind of vice versa,talk about when we're talking
(23:18):
about caring for kids, beingsure to pull in some of those
policy examples and kind ofthere's this um tendency to want
to give people something thatkind of brings the issue home
for them, puts it in theirliving room, so to speak.
The more effective strategy hereis actually to prompt folks to
get outside of their livingroom, to see themselves as part
(23:41):
of the broader community,including parents and direct
caregivers.
We can, that's another strategy.
We can tell stories that putparents in context because
parents are responsible fortheir kids, but parents are lots
of other things too.
Parents have jobs, parents walkdown the street, parents have
hobbies, parents want to live ina society that is healthy and
(24:04):
thriving for their kids and forthe themselves and for you know,
it's easy to kind of divide upsociety between and think about
discrete groups, parents andnon-parents or children versus
adults, but the more we can kindof draw connections between all
those different folks and helpus see our shared interests, our
(24:26):
shared kind of fates.
Um that's a really effectivestrategy for for building a
collective sense ofresponsibility to care for kids
and also collective efficacy,like a sense that we we can make
a difference here.
We can all be caregivers, we canall be effective caregivers and
make a positive difference inthe lives of all children.
(24:46):
We all kind of want to feel likewe have that potential.
SPEAKER_02 (24:49):
And I get it.
I absolutely get the the impulseto try to re-explain the path
we're on to the self.
Because as we're kind of goingdown our paths, we've been told
this story about our ownindividualism forever, so much
so that we're willing to putsingle labels on ourselves,
right?
Like I'm a dad right now, that'swhat I'm doing.
(25:10):
I'm a this right now, that'swhat I'm doing.
And the stories that I think wetell ourselves self-perpetuate
the direction we're headed.
So it's hard to stop.
It's hard to think about thatthe fact that our cultural
narratives might not actually beworking for us.
It's hard to face a differentdirection and say, you know
(25:31):
what, we might have to eitherback up or go lateral a bit to
repave something that works forall of us.
So I understand that.
And of course, you're gonna bein Oregon at the PCA 2025
conference.
Um, I'm curious because I knowthat people out there are gonna
be approaching not only theirown frames, but the
(25:51):
conversations that they wouldlike to have with others about
broadening frames that work forall children and families across
the country.
Do you have any advice for themwhen approaching this particular
endeavor?
SPEAKER_00 (26:05):
I guess I would say there are three things to keep
in mind and to sort of um tobring into communications, which
there are lots of different waysto do it, but three sort of
guiding principles that anyonecan use and that are broadly
applicable.
So the first one is just tothink about and talk about care
as something that is collective.
(26:26):
It's shared, it's a sharedendeavor.
The second one is to think andtalk about care as something
that is inclusive, meaning weneed to talk about all children,
children in every community fromevery demographic group, which
is really different fromappealing to folks to think
about what's in the bestinterest of the children that
(26:48):
they are responsible for.
So taking an inclusive approachto all of our children, all of
society's children.
And then um the third one isthat care is expansive because,
and you you kind of touched onthis a little bit earlier, but
it's so easy to think about sortof children's issues and and to
kind of marginalize what mattersfor children or what decisions
(27:12):
we think about impactingchildren.
But if we think about caring forchildren in a way that's
expansive, it means everything'son the table.
We need to kind of take thatlens to every decision that we
make together.
How will this impact children?
And kind of think through thatquestion.
Because all the decisions wemake about society have some
impact on children in some way,and in the same way they impact
(27:34):
all of us.
They're social issues and thatthey touch all of our lives.
So expanding that concept ofcare to something that's
collective, inclusive, andexpansive, I think is something
that everybody can do.
SPEAKER_02 (27:46):
Well, Jessica, I could do this for hours, if not
days on end.
But thank you, thank you, thankyou for coming on the show
today.
I appreciate the conversation.
SPEAKER_00 (27:55):
Thanks so much, Nathan.
SPEAKER_02 (27:56):
And you can invite upstream solutions into your
feed by subscribing to the ShiftVoices of Prevention today.
Join us to create an ecosystemwhere children and families live
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