The Business of Returns: How DropUpp is Changing E-Commerce Logistics

Episode Transcript
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Voiceover (00:09):
This is the Shoemaker Films podcast.

Dane Shoemaker (00:14):
Naial Casanovas Mack, founder of Drop Up. Drop
Up. Pretty interesting businessmodel. So interested to hear
more about that and your storyand how you came up with the
idea and, you know, yeah. Solet's just dive in.
Tell us about your tell, youknow, tell tell me first about
your business.

Naial Casanovas Mack (00:31):
Okay. So drop up came about almost about
three years ago now. And it is astartup where we pick up online
returns at home and drop themoff for you. Like, have you ever
had to return something?

Of course.

Yeah. Do you know the how com not
complicated, but just how timeconsuming it is to Yeah. Leave
your house, go somewhere, plan.If you have two returns going to
two different to two differentplaces, now that's probably
thirty, forty minutes out ofyour day. Yeah.
And so drop probably thirty,forty minutes out of your day.
Yeah. And so drop up kind ofsolves that solution of the same
way you ordered something toyour house. Use the same way you

(01:07):
return it. Just drop it off atyour front door, side door,
porch.
We'll come pick it up, drop itoff at UPS, Whole Foods,
Staples, post office, anythinganywhere anywhere where it has
to go Yeah. We'll pick it up anddrop it off. So any any brand,
as long as you as long as youhave a PDF of the label Yeah. Or

(01:27):
a QR code for the thing, we canhandle it.

Yeah. So you're essentially just saving the the
customer's trip to UPS, FedEx,USPS.

Correct. So we are total convenience
service. Right. So there's somecustomers who will do their own
returns, but sometimes theyhave, you know, two or three
items going to different places.That's when they use us.
But if they're going to WholeFoods and shopping anyway,
they'll do like, okay, I'll domyself. And that's that's fine.
Like, it's not it's not foreveryone for every situation,
but we have some customers whojust use us religiously, you

(02:00):
know. We we have we we're gonnapick up a bunch of items at
their house weekly. Okay.
Yeah.

Yeah. So you're really benefiting from people
being lazy and people We we liketo look at it as

not lazy, but busy. But busy. Busy people.
Sure. Yeah.
Yeah.

And and it it is it is, you know, the the sign of
the times that people are verybusy.

Yeah. We we do

I mean, I do pretty much all my shopping
online. Right? Except for Like,95%. Yeah. If I bought my a pair
of jeans, my like, once everytwo, three years pair of jeans I
gotta buy, you know, at at themall.
But, other than that,everything's Amazon. We do a lot
of our shop, our groceryshopping Yeah. Whole Foods, they
deliver now.

Yeah. Yeah.

Which is great

as well as too.

You know, Costco, once a month, will do
delivery as well, which is whichis a game changer.

Yeah. You

know? So you're saving money. In my opinion,
you're actually saving money byecommerce.

It's the time.

You're saving your time, but also you're not
buying all the stuff on theshelf that you're walking around
at the store. You just buy, oh,look at that sauce. It's like
$15

of Whole Foods or whatever it is.

So, you know, you're really providing that
connection of, hey. Somethingdoesn't fit. I don't need

this anymore. It's not what I
expected. And it's it's hard to,tell the customer and show the
customer how much of their timethey're consuming in their in
their day. It's kind of a choreYeah. Right now.
Returns are kind of they'vebecome a chore Yeah. Like doing
laundry, doing your dishes,cleaning. Like, do you do you

(03:25):
not expect someone to paysomeone to go do do your returns
for you? But if you they don'trealize how much time they're
spending on doing returns. Ifthey live next to UPS, it could
be a ten minute round trip.
Yeah. But if they don't and thisit's it's more powerful in
suburbs where a round trip wouldbe thirty, forty minutes
depending on where you live.Yeah. Or if you have to go to

(03:47):
UPS store and, FedEx or UPSstore and post office, that's
probably an hour.

So you're kinda streamlining the whole process.
Exactly. Exactly. Actually, thisis one thing. Personally, I
noticed that, I did an Amazonreturn maybe a year ago or
something like that, and I wasable to go to Whole Foods.
Yeah. Like, they accept the

Exactly.

However, I did an Amazon return about two weeks
ago, and the only option was,like, UPS. Yeah. So which I was
confused about.

So Yeah. So different different items,
will be different vendors, andthey will have different return
options. Okay. I think they tryand funnel more, returns through
Whole Foods because it's no boxon label QR code. Some stuff
will need packing.
So you have to take care ofthat. But they've opened up,
like, Amazon return hubs inevery single, Whole Foods, which
helps the customer. They stillhave to leave and and Yeah. And

(04:39):
go and do that.

I drive sales for Whole Foods.

Exactly. I I have customers who still shop
at Whole Foods, but still use usto return for the Whole Foods.
And they'll text me saying, hey,I just went I just shopped at
Whole Foods. I I walked out, andthere was eight people online
for returns, and that's why Iuse you.

Yeah.

Yeah. They they they will still it's still
streamlined to where customerscan, plan their returns to their
grocery runs. Yeah. But thosestill don't wanna stand in line,
in behind eight people to doreturn. And sometimes there's no
there's no one there.

Yeah. Makes sense.

But they still just use us, and and they
also, so they could plan to goand do the return when they go
do their groceries, but theydon't. Just easier to just drop
it off your at your front doorand and Absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So how does it work? I mean, is
there a monthly fee? Is it a perpickup?

Yeah. So, there are different options.
There's a one off option for$5.99. Every pickup, you can do
up to four items. Okay.
So, $5.09 $5.99 for one pickup.There is a 10 per month option
for two pickups a month, fifteendollars a month for four pickups
a month, or $25 unlimitedpickups, unlimited returns.

Okay. So okay. So $10 a month will get you two
pickups.

Will will give you two

Basically, up to eight items per month.

Items. Yeah. Okay. Got it. Yeah.
For each pickup. Up. Yeah.

Yeah. What's the what's the most that you've ever
had a pick up before?

There was there is a limit on there was a
limit on four items for pick up,because Okay. Got it. There was
the the more items that are atthe door, the more time the
driver has to go through andsort through, each item. Yeah.
Because the items right now isyou put a description of what it

(06:30):
is.
Blue, blue shoes, white shoes,necklace, black jacket, blue
sweater. So the more items thatthere are and if they're
similar, it takes even more timebecause you gotta check the tags
and and kinda match them withthe description. Okay. So
there's one customer, I believe.I think they did 17 items in one
pickup.

(06:51):
And that's that's the after thatday, I I I put limits on Okay.
On items per pickup.

Yeah. So somebody can do for the $25,
that's unlimited pickups, butit's still only

four max. And they can do you can still
do, you know, a pickup today, apickup tomorrow, a pickup the
next day of four items.

What's the most pickups you've done with a
particular client?

Like a monthly or, like, at

In one month, how many times did you go to
their house?

I've I mean, probably the no. Probably
four times. Okay. Multipleitems. Alright.
Yeah. Yeah. Because therethere's always that limit of of
four pickups per month. I had Ihad set that limit before. Got
it.
Okay. Yeah. Got it. So no one noone could really do more than
four pickups a month. Okay.
But there was there was no itemlimit. Got it. Until I arrived

(07:41):
and there was the 17 item. Theywere very well labeled. I will
give kudos to that customer.
Yeah. It was, you know, one itwas like one through 17 Yeah.
And it was one through 17 in thedescription. So I will give that
customer kudos for Yeah. Forthat.
It was very easy, but it wasstill 17. Yeah. Yeah. And
there's also I also added a asize limit too because there was

(08:03):
no size limit before. Okay.
And so I picked up, anothercustomer, and they had two huge,
I guess, bed frame, things. Andit was, you know, from the front
of my car all the way at, to mytrunk. And after that day, now
there's a size and and weightlimit. That's what I'm

(08:24):
frightened. So you you

just go learn it. You can buy, like, like,
mobile homes on Amazon now. Thatwould be, quite

the predicament. Yes. That's when
you say, hey. You call the cops.Hey.
I can't put this in my car.Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And another
one, there was, one customer wasscheduled for an area rug.
And he's like, area rugs, theycould be big, they could be
small. It was big. It was long.Really? One more engine, it
wouldn't have, fit in my car toto pick up.

(08:53):
Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty. Yeah.That's the end but you're just
still learning of of how toSure.
How to interact with thecustomer and how they you can
set simple instructions for,like, how to use a product.
Yeah. And it's just, like, the

people People will sell it.

Won't read it.

Yeah.

And so you really have to think about how
they're thinking and do it asclear as day. Mhmm. And even
with that, like, even with anoversized button, peep people
won't click that. Mhmm. And youjust try different fonts,
different positions, and it'sjust sometimes they just don't
click it.
Yeah. Yeah. Or or or they don'twant to. But you deal with it.
You learn.

Right. Right. They just wanna see if I hey.
Can I get away with this or not?

Exactly. Exactly. It's human nature,

I guess.

Right? Yeah. Absolutely.

That's cool, though. That's awesome. So so
you've been in business for howlong? Three years?

Almost two. Almost three years now.
Three. Okay.

Yeah. That was how did you come up with the
idea?

I came up with the idea. I had the idea
of, when you order something toyour house Yeah. These brand new
boxes that are from five, tenmiles away that get delivered to
your house from a warehouse,nearby. They come in, they're
brand new boxes. It still haslike a it could still it could
still be used three or four moretimes after you open it.

(10:06):
Mhmm. Because they're brand new.They're off the they're,
straight from the warehouse toyour house. Maybe a couple of
bumps and bruises, but they'restill structurally fine Yeah. To
get used three or four moretimes.
Okay. And so the initial ideawas, let me make my rounds, pick
up all these, shipping boxesthat people from from people's

(10:26):
orders. Okay. Refurbish them,like, lit laser off the labels,
steam off the the the, thepacking tape or whatever it was
on there. One, a lot of laborfor that.
So that was a little that wassome friction there. And then I
said, let me pick them up,refurbish them, and then
whenever you need a return, I'lldrop off the box at your house

(10:47):
again with the tape and with thelabel. Back then, the labels
were mostly PDF labels. Okay. Soinstead of you having to print
or find tape or something, Iwill drop off a refurbished box
for you to use.
And then not not only that, I'llcome pick up your return and
drop it off at post office UPS.Wow. Okay. But that posed a

(11:08):
problem where I was coming toyour house three times,
hypothetically three times, fora couple of copper boxes and a
return. Didn't make sense.
Yeah. Boxes are extremely cheapto buy and make. Yeah. And so
that just it just it was a pitythat these brand new boxes would
go into the trash or recyclingwhen they don't have to be
popped up and be made intoanother box. Yeah.

(11:31):
It's just it's it's it's alittle silly, but it they're
extremely cheap to make. Yeah.So that that didn't make sense.
But I hit on another problem wasthe was the returns.

Right. Okay.

And so I was like, okay. And you go
asking people. I sent a surveyout. I think that close to 70
people answered the survey. I Isent out all I sent it out all
to my friends, and then myfriends, send it to their
friends until they all answered.
And I didn't wanna give awaykind of the the idea or what I
was trying to build. I justwanna test the waters on, like,

(12:02):
the the online ordering,returns, what they did, what to
do with the boxes. So I kind ofgot some a whole info on that.
Yeah. And I found out peoplehate returns.
Yeah. And that is everyconversation I've had with
people about drop up or returns,I say, oh, I'm in returns. And

(12:24):
the next phrase is, oh, I hatereturns. That is a phrase I hear
the most is I hate returns. Andso that's how the idea came up.
It was like, oh, alright. Peoplehate returns. They're they're
still simple to do. You justtake it to somewhere, UPS, Whole
Foods. You still have to leavethe house.
Yeah. And so that's kinda wherethe idea started was, alright.

(12:47):
Let me start picking up, returnsto people and doing them for and
and and doing it for them. And Istarted that, and that's kind of
how the idea was born.

That's amazing. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you would it
it's it's something where it'sso easy. You can get something
from around the world and haveit landed at your house, at your
front door Yeah.
With a click of a button. Butthen to return it, you have to
leave the house. Come on.

Yeah. I'm surprised that there aren't
like, this is this is not

I'm surprised.

Yeah. I mean, I know that I don't even know. You
used to be able to have schedulea pickup by by FedEx or UPS or
something like that. You mightbe able to do that still if it's
especially

if it's You can still yeah. You can
still do that. Okay. I've I'vetalked to a lot of customers and
the, like, example, the UPSpickup windows, they'll give
you, I think it was, like, afour hour window. Yeah.
And sometimes they don't evenshow up. Right. So we're just
providing a a reliable pickupservice and a no box no no box
no label. Like, you can't youcan't have a QR code return and

(13:51):
have UPS pick it up. Yeah.
It has to be packed and lay hasto be at least packed, and
they'll bring the label for it.Okay. The power of us is you can
just leave a raw item that's nobox, no label, which is most of
Amazon returns. Yeah. And we'llcome pick it up and and,
categorize it in in our systemand then drop it off at at Whole

(14:11):
Foods Okay.
Or UPS where wherever it has togo Right. Right. With the QR
code.

That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. So talk to me about
the infrastructure of this.Like, you so you have do you
have drivers going out?
Is there an app? I think isthere it's just a web app for
today? Okay.

Yeah. So the the web app I'll start with
the web app. Yeah. I'mnontechnical. Okay.
And I joined this preaccelerator. It's a twelve week
accelerator. And they introducedme to this no code software. And
which is basically I explainedit

as Bubble or what is it?

Bubble. Bubble. Yeah. Okay. Bubble.io.
Yep. And I explain I explain itas Wix on steroids and cocaine.
Yeah. Because it is crazypowerful on what you can do. I
can build anything now.

Yeah. It's pretty cool.

Two certain limits.

I've played around with it Yeah. A while ago
Yeah. Yeah, on some differentstuff.

It's a huge learning curve. Yeah. Like,
which is just drag and drop and,you know, a couple of things.
There is a huge learning curveto bubble. Yeah.
But once you know how to do it,I can go and change my whole
software tonight That's amazing.Without having to call anyone
and or or wait, you know,overseas.

So you built the whole web app?

Built the whole thing. It was a so from in
the pre accelerator, it was,like, a twelve week program. And
in that twelve weeks, I came inwith a raw idea of the
refurbishing the boxes to twelveweeks later, full MVP built a
web app, full MVP built, payingcustomers and people using the

(15:38):
app. Okay. And so that was,like, within three months, I had
I basically learned the basicsof Bubble to where I could just
build something that worked.
Yeah. And then once I launchedthat, then I say, okay. This is
very ugly. Let me now now that Iknow a lot more, let me revamp
the whole thing. Yeah.
And we're probably on versionmaybe three or four Okay. Of of

(15:59):
the web app. But you basicallybut you basically start with the
like, where do you start? Signup page. Yeah.
And you do you have an input,which is your username, email,
password, confirm password, andthen a button that says sign up.
Okay. And then the power ofbubble is it's like when you you
tell it when you when the whenthe user presses sign up, if

(16:20):
these three inputs are empty,don't do anything, or give an
alert saying, hey. The emailsthe you need an email. If these
three inputs are full, create anaccount with this email, this
password, and sign the user in.
Okay. And that's literally howyou start is a sign in page.
Okay. And you start playingaround with that. Yeah.

(16:41):
Yeah. Yeah. And then, you know,thirteen months later, and I
have the whole version what Ihave now Wow. Is is the whole
drop up web app. And there is acustomer portal, there's
account, there's admin portal,there's a driver portal, and
there is a store portal for ourdrop off points in in in Philly.
Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So that's an that's a newer part of the
business. Right? You have

That is

you have drop physical drop drop off. So the
yeah. The the

I haven't come up with a word with it yet,
but it's for now, it's a

Drop drop off drop off. Drop off drop off
points right now.

Yeah. I have not come up with a word, a
name for it, but it is these thehome pickups for the cities are
more complicated. Yeah. Becauseyou can't just leave it outside.
Right.
And so I had to come up with asystem to where the customers
could easily return somethingwithout having to go to UPS, to

(17:36):
Whole Foods. Anywhere, they haveto go go drop it off. So, I
found these mailbox stores.Mailbox stores are independently
owned stores where the customerpays a subscription to get their
packages sent to, that store andget held so the items doesn't

(17:56):
stay don't stay on the frontdoorstep where it gets stolen
within thirty minutes Yeah.Less.
So the this store can accept allthe customers, packages, but
they can only accept returnsthat are packed and labeled. So
if a customer comes in with aUPS QR code, a Whole Foods QR
code, they can't return itunless if it's packed and

(18:19):
labeled with a PDF of the label.Ready to go. Ready to go. They
just come scan it and pick itup.
Okay. And so I was like, oh mygod. Like, I can give these
stores access to handling notonly their customers' packages,
but also the customers' returns.So in one stop shop, they can do

(18:42):
anything that they order onlineor have to return. Great.
And then they can and then theycan plan to drop their packages
off when they're or when they'repicking up their next order,
which is within a couple daysof, picking up the last order.
Yeah. So there's no time spentreturning. They're already going
in to pick up their items.They're just dropping the stuff

(19:03):
off there and picking up theirnext order and going home.
Yeah. And so that's, that's beennew in the past three months.
Okay. Opened up I'll be doing myeighth location tomorrow,
Tuesday.

Nice.

So it's been very exciting. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So these are essentially, like, mom
and pop owned, mail box shops.

Naial Casanovas Mack: Independently owned stores. (19:24):
undefined
There are what's called themailbox store, which is more of,
like, the ordering, but also apack and ship store, which which
are, you go there, you have toship something, they they have
better rates. And instead ofhaving to go to a UPS, we just
you can just, ship it fromthere, which is closer to your
house. Yeah. So all theselocations now, you can not only
ship stuff and receive yourmail, but you can also return

(19:45):
anything you have as long as youhave a a QR code, you can drop
it off right there.
Yeah. Yeah.

Nice. That that seems like a great that in and
of itself is a great idea. I Iused to live in South Philly
Yeah. For, like, probably sevenyears ago.

So you know

Yeah. And, like, obviously, package stuff was a
huge issue. We never really gotaround, but it was just kind of,
like, we just ordered less orhad stuff shipped to our, you
know, parents' house or whateveror or at work. I had a lot of
stuff shipped shipped to myoffice down in Yeah. Downtown.
So, yeah.

So these these mailbox stores now are
kind of popping up Yeah. AroundPhilly just to help the the
neighborhood kinda handle there.Yeah. If even if there's no
theft problem, you're justyou're just uneasy, and you you
have to wait at home. If if youwork from home, sure, you can
pick it up.
But sometimes you just miss theknock or miss the the the

(20:36):
doorbell. Well, you might notuse the the doorbell. Sure. But
the package just sits out thereand, you know, you're just
uneasy. So they'd sign up anywayto go, for these mailbox stores.
Yeah.

Yeah. And and they they appreciate the extra
foot traffic, right, of, like,hey. We're gonna put a drop up
box here. They don't mind morepeople doing it.

And that's that's what it's it's not a drop
up box. I'll I'll explain that alittle later. But Okay. Yeah.
They don't the more foot trafficthat goes to the store, the
better for any any store.
Yeah. Whether retail mailbox orpack and chip. There's just more
people into that store to seewhat it is.

So Explain what what the what it's not a box.
It's

It's not a box. So the the when when the
customer has a return, they'llgo in. They'll, if they don't
have an account already, they'llsign up real quick, upload the
QR code, pay and drop it offthere, and then the person at
the counter will check it in inthe system I built for them.

Okay. Oh,

nice. And so then it gets categorized. If
it's packed already, a QR couldgo a QR code goes on it. So it
categorizes that item. So whenwhen I come, I can just scan the
QR code on the item, and I knowexactly what it is, what the
customer uploaded, and whereit's going.
Yeah. So that's the the theperson at the desk is only

(21:49):
checking it in. So I know, one,when stuff gets tricked in at
the store, and two, what thatitem is when I pick it up. Yeah.
So the customer from sign up towalking out the door is three
minutes.
Yeah.

That's great. So you've really you've built,
like, a moments, like,partnerships with these Yeah.
Stores. They're kind of integralnow with to this the software
and everything.

Yeah. So now they're coming to one. I'm
not sending them any, not manyclients just yet. Right now,
it's their existing customersthat are, like, using the
platform. The next step for menow is to partner up with online
retailers in the Philly area sothey can use those drop off
points instead of having thecustomer have to ship the the

(22:30):
return back to them.
Yeah. So come up withpartnerships too so they can
instead of the kind of option ofshipping it back or dropping it
off, for free at, no box on thelabel at one of these drop off
points that I'm, partnered upwith. Yeah. Yeah.

That's great. Yeah. You do you have any
employees today?

Naial Casanovas Mack: Contractors or No employees. (22:51):
undefined
Contractors. The drivers.

The drivers. Yeah. Okay.

We have, five, part time drivers whenever
I need them. Okay. And they dothe rounds in in the morning. I
do the pickups. We do pickupsevery day, Monday through
Sunday.
Yeah. And these store pickups inthe city would be Tuesday,
Thursday, or Saturday. So theykind of get the shifts of in the
morning or the store, pickup.Store pickups happen around

(23:18):
midday. Right?
Yeah. Yeah.

And how how how have you, you know, sourced
these drivers? Are they Funny.

Signing up, looking for a word early?
Funny enough, when I was on, Foxtwenty nine Okay. A year a year
ago, January. Okay. They reachedout for for a segment.

Nice.

And I got so many hits on my contact Us
page about drivers, about peoplewanting to drive for drop up.
Yeah. And so the whole power ofbuilding yourself with with with
your no code because I wasgetting so many requests. I was
like, oh my god. I I should letme do a, a driver application
page.
Yeah. So within, I think, ten orfifteen minutes, I had I built a

(24:04):
just a simple thing where youcan put name, last name, email,
your ZIP code, date of birth, ifyou wanna be full time
contractor, or part time, somenotes, and you just submit it.
And then all all that goes intoa database. So within minutes, I
push this new, this new page sodrivers could just apply Yeah.

(24:26):
To join the wait list.
Yeah. And so that's what I did.What what went on there. And a
bunch of people, submitted maybeI wanna say, like, 15 to 20
drivers, submitted the form andcome into our vet database. But
I searched for drivers, funnyenough, on, on Nextdoor.

(24:48):
Nextdoor. Okay. Yeah. I put outa post on Nextdoor. You will not
believe this.
I have an account for the cityand an account for the, for the
main line.

Okay.

I posted on both. And I was like, hey.
I'm the founder of drop up. Youknow, the holidays are coming
up. I'm looking for, you know,extra extra drivers.
Wanna make a couple bucks do acouple hours of work Yeah. Of
overflow. And so I must havegotten forty, eighty comments
and messages on each account.Wow. And so I was not expecting

(25:18):
that from from Nextdoor.
Yeah. And so that's how I foundthese just drivers who just
wanna do, like, a couple hours aweek, extra, make a couple
bucks, a week. Yeah. And sothat's that's how I found, most
of the drivers and I post on ona couple Facebook ones. But
Nextdoor, powerful.
Yeah.

I mean I like Nextdoor too.

Yeah. If you're

like local hyper local Yes. Kind of, like,
mountain

biking. Yeah. And it's good because I
wanted drivers in the main line,but also wanted drivers in the
city. Because I didn't wantkinda like a someone who lives
in, I don't know, Malverndriving to the city Yeah. To go
pick up packages.
Right. Right. Right. I got, somedrivers from next door in the
city and from next door in themain line, which is nice. It was
great.
It was fantastic.

So you almost have, like, two different hubs,
almost Yeah.

And, you know, if if if some of the
drivers it's very manual processright now. I kind of ask them,
hey. Are you are you availabletomorrow to do a couple of
pickups? Okay. So, you know,I'll start with one driver in
each location.
If none in the city can do it, Ijust have, you know, a bunch
here where I can just send themYeah. To say it's it's extra
time, but Yeah. Stuff getspicked up. Yeah. Yeah.

(26:24):
Yeah. Which is the mostimportant thing.

That's cool.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Talk to me about, like, I don't know, some
early challenges, you know, thatyou face. Like, anything that
you were able to, you know,overcome

or I think you

can share?

I think the when you come up with your
idea, when you're when you'recoming up, like, online return
picking up online returns athome, like, this is a genius
idea. You know? Everyone's like,oh my god. Yeah. You should do
it.
Totally do it. It's like, okay.Let let me do that. And you
think it's gonna blow up. Youthink when you launch, like,
people are just gonna go signup, use a service every single

(26:59):
day.
You know? And when I launched,it was like crickets. I
should've in hindsight, onething I learned was when you're
gonna when you're gonna launch aproduct, a company, launch
anything, build up the hype.Yeah. And that's what I should
have done on the socials is kindof make an online presence
before, launching.

(27:20):
So there's some hype and youfeel a little better. And
there's, you know, you can do,like, a hard launch at, like, a
physical vacation would be kindacool too. Mhmm. So there's
people there taking pictures,you know, something. Yeah.
But it didn't build up the hype.And so when I launched, it was,
you know, we're launched. Like,no one cares. Yeah. Yeah.

(27:40):
So that's one one thing I shouldhave done was, build up the
hype. Yeah. And I regret doingthat, but, you know, you learn.

Yeah. I mean

And I've seen companies launch multiple
times every year. And companiesdo launch multiple times every
year. The the launching isn't,it's in constraint to one time.
That's it. Yeah.
I've seen customers rebrand andlaunch again or different
colors. Relaunch, again andbuild up the hype to that Yeah.
To launch and invite a bunch ofpeople. Yeah. In hindsight, I

(28:12):
didn't have the resources to to,like, a physical launch, but,
you know, you learn.
Yep. Yeah. I would've I would'vedone something.

Well, yeah. You I mean, now you you got
customers. You're rolling. Youyou can't, yeah, Train's left
the station, so to speak. Whatkind of marketing are you doing
today, though?

So marketing, I've turned off,
Facebook ads. Okay. Just pouringmoney into that. It's dumping
money Yeah. With some results.
Yeah. So I resorted toword-of-mouth is huge,
especially in, like, thismainline area. Mhmm. You have to
build trust with the customertoo because people will see will

(28:49):
see your ad and be skeptical.Yeah.
Like, oh, well, why why would Ipay someone to do that? Like,
you don't have to. Yeah. Youcan't no one's stopping you from
doing it yourself. I I used topost on on Nextdoor.
I was trying to find ways, likebecause you can't you can't self
promote on these on theseFacebook groups or or or
Nextdoor.

Right.

And so trying to find ways to just
kinda promote, get the name outthere. Yeah. And so, on
Nextdoor, I'll be like, hey. Youknow, I I found this, you know,
cool company to drop up. Youknow, they come pick up, your
your your online returns athome.
I use it in my household, andpeople chew you apart. It's
crazy. People have no I thinkpeople just sit there and just

(29:32):
kinda find just post

Of course. Yeah.

To just attack you.

What kind of stuff were they saying? Like

Like, who's gonna pay for this? Like,
people people can do it on theirown. People are so lazy. Yeah.
There was one Sure.

Sure. But you're saving time.

You know? But people don't understand the
the the time slash value Yeah.That they could be saving. Mhmm.
And that's fine.
It's a drop up is not foreveryone. Mhmm. It's not for
everyone yet. Yeah. And like,even on I was running ads, and
there's this one person justcommenting on every single drop
of ad.

(30:06):
I don't know what they did. Theyjust just find every single one
and comment. Oh, people arelazy. Like, why would people pay
for this? I do it on my own.
I was like, that's that's fine.Like, you can just scroll past
it. Just scroll past it.

I probably commented on one ad and then
just kept getting served ads,and now they're probably

So exactly. Right. Right. They're
they're engaging. Oh, look.
A potential customer. Like, no.No. Everything it was just the
nasty stuff. And I Yeah.
I resorted to, people somedisgusting stuff too. So, I
resorted to just being thataccount that just, like,
responded with the same energyact. Yeah. That's like I stuff I

(30:43):
can't say, but it's just it'sjust funny. Like, you're really,
like, good good for a job.
You know? Just just, like, boom,a burn towards them. That's
that's you know, I'm having fun.

Yeah. I I like a lot of your videos that you've
posted also. Do you Yeah. Talk alittle bit about your

Yeah. So that's, that's also too is is
doing your own making your owncontent on a budget. Yeah. You
have a $1,400 camera in your inyour in your pocket that you use
every day, and you don't use itfor for camera stuff. So I was
like, okay.
So I have a garage behind myhouse. I turned into a a green

(31:18):
screen, emptied everything out,cleaned everything, bought it's
incredibly cheap to buy, like, a50 by 50 or 50 by 80 sheet of
green screen. Oh, yeah. Yeah.It's, like, $50.
And I was like, So I got that,hooked up the bar, attach it to

(31:38):
the edges, and it's a nice Imean, it's a it's a good set.
It's a good set. And I starteddoing, my ad. My ads are, kind
of copied off of have you everseen the the Mint Mobile
commercial Yeah. With RyanReynolds?
Yeah. Yeah. Right. I mean

He does. Those are good.

Love those.

Those are good. Yeah.

Love those. Yes. He has a more
established brand and, you know,exactly what they're doing. So I
was like, okay. Let me let metry and do those.
And my ads are modeled afterafter his ad too. That's
awesome. Yeah. I don't know ifyou saw the, did you receive the
Victoria Beckham or the DavidBeckham, Netflix show?

I I've I've never watched it. I've seen,
like, a lot of memes since

There's a memes of, you know, like, be
honest. Yeah. So when that He's

like he's like through his through the door.

Yes. Yeah. So that's that's the one that
when that when that kind ofshow, launched on Netflix, that
clip kinda went viral. It waslike, oh, you know, Victoria was
talking about how she how shegrew up in a a middle class
family, and and David was like,be honest. She's like, no.
Well, we did my dad was aworking man. I was like and and

(32:45):
David was like, be honest. Whatcar did your dad drive? She was
like, well, she's like, no, behonest. And she was like, well,
my my dad drove a Rolls Royce.
And so when that went viral, Iwas like, I have to do the same
thing, but for top up. Yeah.Yeah. And so I got a friend set
up, this was probably, like, aweek after. I was like, I wanna

(33:06):
just re just recreate something.
Just get the so people canidentify the people who know
will know, and people who don'twill just see, like, a nice
little fun ad. Yeah. And so Igot a friend, wrote up some
lines, and we shot it in anafternoon. That's cool. And she
was like I think it was like,you know, I hate returns.

(33:28):
Like, returns are are are superhard. And I was like, be honest.
And she's like, well, no, theyare. And I was like, be honest.
Like, what do you do?
She's like, well, I was like,no, no. Be honest. She was like,
well, I sat outside and someonedid it for me. And so that's how
that that ad came out.

That's great. Yeah. That's genius. Like,
that's how you have to play.Just kinda like I'm like, I
think your brand really, likelike, is set up well to do,
like, funny

stuff like that. Yeah. Exactly. And it's
it's it's hard because I I don'twanna do all the ads myself. And
it's also time too.
Yeah. Like, the the the greenscreen ads. Yeah. It's I can
have something out within twentyfour hours of when I think about
it, but it has to be, like, fullon nothing but that for twenty
four hours. Yeah.
Like the, like the Mother's Dayone we discussed. Yeah. I was

(34:13):
sitting home. Must have been,like, in the morning having my
coffee, and I was like, oh mygod. Mother's Day is tomorrow.
And I wanted to put outsomething out for Mother's Day
because a lot of my users aremoms.

Okay.

So I have to put, like, dad the, Father's
Day and Mother's Day. And it wasthe next day. So I was like,
crap. I gotta I wanna I wannamake I wanna make an ad for for
Mother's Day. And so I spent thethe whole day before Mother's
Day from when I realized to theevening, I wrote up a whole
script.

(34:46):
Writing scripts, you can write awhole nice little script and
read it. Sometimes it justdoesn't sound natural.

Right.

So you have to write a script, say it
out loud, perform it. It's like,yeah. That's not something
someone would say. And so youjust go and read read it
reiterate. I wanna kinda hit,like, certain things and come up
with ideas.
And so, in the evening, I think,I've done the script, and then I
I I wanted a shirt that says, Ilove my mom. And so I went to TJ

(35:18):
Maxx, bought the, bought a tshirt. I have a whole vinyl
cutter press t shirt Oh, really?In in my basement. Okay.
Previous venture. And so I waslike, I wanna make, like, I love
my mom t shirt. And so Idesigned the t shirt. It's just
I wanted it, like, TJ Maxx at7PM, I think. Got the T shirt

(35:39):
and got to it just in case thecolors weren't weren't good.
And so I then I designed, cutout the vinyl stuff, pressed it
onto the T shirt. And I think by10PM, I think I was maybe ready
or almost ready to do it. Yeah.But the filming didn't start
until, I think, one in themorning Oh my gosh. On Mother's

(36:02):
Day.
Wow. Yeah. And so I and this I'min a garage alone in a pitch
dark. Outside is pitch dark.Obviously, the the whole set is
illuminated, but in one in themorning, I'm starting to film
this ad.
And I think by two, I had all mylines ready, natural, didn't
need, you know, the card infront of me, so I was just

(36:24):
talking. And even though youhave a script, then on when
you're filming, you say stuff.Even if you memorize it, you
still mess up. Yeah. It's like,oh, I forgot this or you just
forget different words and,like, or just alter a phrase
that has, like, completelydifferent to what you had, but
it kinda makes sense.

Right. Right.

And so then you kind of, alter. And one
of the things was, I wanted to,like, talk to someone on set.
It's like, why are we chargingthe moms it's Mother's Day?

Right. Like, you're talking to someone Like,
if I'm talking to someone

and I'm alone in my at this point, I'm
alone at 2AM in my garagetalking to nobody, you know.
Imagine someone someone openedup the garage room just there
talking to myself at two in amorning. I know. I don't know
about it. Yeah.
Yeah. We lost them. Yeah. Andso, yeah. So that was it was,
kind of improvising the linesand Yeah.
I was happy with what I got.After two, shut everything down.

(37:15):
I went home Yeah. And startedediting. Yeah.
And I think I didn't finishuntil, I wanna say, like, five
in the morning Wow. For, like, aeight I thought it was, like, an
eight or 09:00 launch on On postit. Media. Yeah. Right.

Oh my god.

And from mother's day, we were ready.
Yeah. Under under 24 from ideato launching, the

Well, there was a lot of engagement on that, but
I saw it was good.

It was it was it was a fun idea. I I did
like that.

Did you run that as an ad then also?

Or No. That was just that was just,
media. Yeah. Yeah. That wasawesome.
Yeah. And it's like, you can Iwould love to make create so
much content and run ads andhave, social, like, content
creators create content? Butthere's so much I can do in a
day. Yeah. Yeah.

Right. I think I think you could actually benefit
pretty well from, like, UGC.Like, just, you know, people
just saying, hey. There's thisgreat service where they pick
up, you know,

all my And that's that's what I do wanna do
because I've seen, like, Instathree sixty does great, great
commercial, ads with UGC wherethey'll just send a camera to
someone and they'll say,alright. I'll send you a camera.
Just create you have a a contentcreator creating good content.
And I did that, I think, withone or two creators. But once

(38:32):
they post it, hype goes up andthen done.
Yeah. And it's just there and,like, it's not something. But I
learned next thing I wanna do isdo the same thing. But instead
of them posting it on their ontheir stories, like, don't you
don't even have you can justcreate the content for me. Don't
even post it on your on yourwall.
Yeah. I wanna run ads with it.You post it and run ads. I would

(38:54):
actually do that. Run ads withit.
Yeah. Not not even post it. Justrun ads with it. Yeah. And it
can you can link both accountsto where she gets some, some
some views out of it, and I getsome views out of it.
Exactly. Yeah. So that's that issomething I've thought about. I
haven't executed it, but it'ssomething I wanna do is is Yeah.
You just see run ads, don't postit on your wall, and ruin your

(39:15):
nice beautiful feed.
I just need someone to docontent for me.

And there's plenty of Philly and even
mainline, like, kind ofinfluencer type people that you
could reach out to. Exactly. Andthen yeah. Even even just, like,
no name random people, theirservices online.

As long as they have as long as they can
create good content from homeYeah. By all means, I'll I'll
I'll I'll I'll

I mean, you get 20.

It it doesn't have to be, like,
someone who's a content creator.Yeah. It could be someone
starting out.

Authentic. And and the good thing is that you
don't have, like, a product. Youdon't have to ship them
anything. You literally justhave to get, like, a package
Yeah. Or something.
You have

to use it. Yeah. They they can just, you
know, kinda make believe thatthey're using it and just drop
it on their front porch. Yeah.Exactly.
Like that. Yeah.

Yeah. I also think that, like, a mailer,
like, a physical piece of mail,have you thought about that,
actually sending those out?

Be expensive. They are? It's very
I've I've looked at the, like,the post office routes. Yeah.
And each route is, like, 3 to$400 plus the the the we're
we're bootstrapping this.

Per per route. That's how much Per route. Is
that right?

Plus, you know, the I guess, for, like, a
good one, we'll say, like, 5¢per per per mailer. Okay. So if
you wanna get a Yeah. A goodzone, you're spending a thousand
plus Right. For a good postoffice route.
And it's not it's not it's notworth that. Plus you

have to print all the night, you know,

the night's gloss. Yes. Yeah.
Exactly. What I did do was, Iwould go around the main line on
trash day, on recycling day.
Okay. And any house that had afull bin of recycling or or,
like, online boxes that they gotYeah. Walk up to the door, leave

(40:52):
a card. Not the mailbox becausethat's illegal. Put it on their
front doorstep.
Is it is it? Yeah. If you can'tit has to go through the post
office. Right. Right.
Right.

That makes sense.

I'm sure there's a I mean, I've gotten
stuff in my mailbox, but sec I'mpretty sure, that is illegal.

Yeah. Yeah. Another thing I'm thinking, now
my wheels are turning here, but,like, your drivers, right, after
they do a pickup, they could,like, go to every house on that
street with a flyer that says,hey. We just picked up something
from your neighbor.

So someone like that. Someone told me, they
told me, why don't you have yourdrivers mistakenly go to, like,
your neighbor's house? The thethe customer's neighbor house
knock on the door and, like,hey, I'm here. I'm here to pick
up a return. And they'd be like,what?
And then be like, oh, isn'tthis, you know, 03:20, this road

(41:40):
and oh my god. It's next door.Oh, I'm so sorry. You know? Just
like immediate interactionsbefore the actual customer.
Yeah. Well yeah. It's a littlesketchy, though. You don't wanna
do that. Yeah.
This is you know?

But, you know, you you offer a great service,
and I feel like it's, you know,yeah, it's definitely needed
and, you know, it's pretty neat.

It's something where building here.
Where the the the online returnhome pickups is starting to
grow, and people trying to getcomfortable using it. Yeah.
Because if you had told me threeyears ago someone would do my my
my return, I'd be like, no way.I'm gonna do it.
Yeah. I don't know if someoneelse is doing that. What if they
mess up? Yeah. That's totallyvalid.

(42:19):
We want you try it andeverything goes correctly.
Whenever I whenever a newcustomer signs up, I'll just
text them, hey. I'm the founder.Another mistake, going back to
the mistakes I did, when Ilaunched, I wanted to look
bigger than I appeared. Like, Iwanna be, you know, my face was
wasn't on the website.

(42:40):
This is who we are. We're we'rea company. I wanted to kind of
appear bigger than I actuallywas. I was a one man band.
Right.
Right. What I've seen worksbetter is, hey, I'm the founder.
This is my company. I'm doingeverything. Like, I'll be there
tomorrow to pick up your, yourIt's awesome.

(43:00):
Your return. Yeah. Anything,text me. And so when even now,
when people sign up, I will textthem personally. Hey, I'm the
founder if you need anything.
And I try and do any any newperson who signed up, I try and
do the first one.

Okay.

Just to kind of see that just when
everything goes right. Yeah. Andand if there's anything that
goes wrong, I'm saying, hey. I'mthe founder. I'm outside.
I don't see a package. Yeah. Andso I always try and do the first
one and kind of text them to theprocess saying, hey. I I picked
up, your package. I'll I'll letyou know when I drop it off.
And at the end of the day, 3PM,I'll text them, hey.

(43:36):
Everything's being dropped off.You'll also receive an email
notification. Because sometimesit goes to junk. So I I've had
people text me saying, hey.
I didn't receive any alertthat's been dropped off. Like,
oh, it has been dropped off. Youshould have received check your
junk, or or your spam folder.And, oh, yep. It's here.
Fine. But that personal textingback and forth, who you're sure

(43:57):
is a customer a lot.

Goes a long way, especially, like, early on,
these early customers and yeah.Just building trust and

So that's one mistake I'd another mistake
I did was just trying to appearbigger than bigger than I
actually was. Yeah. Always justbe

Some faceless company and app. Yeah. You know?
But, like, but, you know, you Ilike your approach.

But you think, you know, like, oh,
customers wouldn't want, like,us to work with a start up. They
they want, like, an establishedbrand, an established company.
Right. Like, I thought,customers would, be more
comfortable with a biggercompany, you know, proof of
concept that everything's right.They do prefer start up texting

(44:37):
back and forth.
I have customers who've I havean an elderly customer who can't
leave their house, and she callsme to schedule, her pickup.

That's great.

Yeah. And because, you know,
screenshotting a QR code may notbe of her abilities. So they get
Yeah. You can forward me theemail and she scheduled
something on it. I kinda walkher through it.
Yeah. But sometimes she's like,I can't. And I was like,
alright. Don't worry. I'll I'llsubmit it on your side.
Just email me the the label, theQR code. Yeah. And so we do that
like that. But to but try I tryand be personal with every every

(45:08):
single customer now when theysign up. That's great.
Yeah. Which is something Ifound, which is that works a lot
better. Yeah. Yeah.

I people appreciate it. This day and age,
especially everything's digital.Everything digital automated.

Yeah. Yeah. That's great. If you have
a start up and you have, an AIcustomer service, you're doing
it wrong. Yeah.
Doing it wrong. Yeah. You be yoube the one talk talking to the
customer because then you thenyou know what? You you get
feedback from the customer too.I had someone sign up not too
long ago.
They added some items to their,to return for a pickup, and then

(45:41):
they never, picked up. So, hey.I'm the founder. I noticed you
didn't, you didn't schedule apickup. Let me know if you need
anything.
And she said, oh, I you know, Iended up doing I ended up doing
it myself. Thank you. And and Iresponded, great. No problem. As
a start up, I'm looking forfeedback.

(46:03):
Can you give me a reason why?And she said, yep. I work from
home, so I just wanna get out ofthe house and and do it myself.
I was like, I totallyunderstand. Couple hours later,
she she texted me back saying,actually, for some more
feedback.
And she explained, like, kind ofhow she did that return Yeah.
And, kind of her process. Andshe kinda walked through. Okay.

(46:27):
Next time I'll use you becauseby the amount of time I spend
doing that plus paying thepublic transportation to get
there and printing the label atthis at the store, I could just
pay you $5.99 to do it.
And I was like, that's exactlythat's exactly what we're here
for.

That's amazing.

But she came back, like, couple hours
later to even go be morefeedback because I had text her.
And if I hadn't if I hadn't, youknow, sent the first text to get
some feedback, I wouldn't havegotten that. I didn't even think
about people taking, the bus orthe train to to go return
something.

Yeah. I mean, absolutely. $5.99 for what?

And she was like, I'd love your service,
and next time I'll I'll use it.And I was like, that's exactly
what we're here for. Yeah.

Yeah. But to your point, like, talking to
customers is the absolutely mostcritical thing you can do. Yeah.
Yeah. And

talking to them honestly, listen, we are a
startup. Like, anything youneed, just text me, call me,
anything. 2AM, call me. I'llanswer. Yeah.
Yeah. And you and you ask themfor feedback too. Feedback is
gold. Yeah. So you can iterate,on the feedback that they give
you.
And if they see if they give youfeedback and see an update the

(47:33):
next time they do it, like, thatfast, could be the next day,
could be a week later, they'lltext and say, oh, hey. I saw the
update. Fantastic. Works great.Yeah.
And that's how I do it a lotmore personally than big
company, huge huge start up. Youknow? Yeah.

Do you have plans to to scale?

Yes. People have asked me, what's
your goal? And I wanted I wantto have the experience of
taking, like, a service astartup like this kind of
nationwide. Yeah. Because Icould I could scale in Philly
and then kinda sell it or scalefor the East Coast and sell it.
I wanna do I wanna try and do itnationwide. Yeah. But for right

(48:15):
now, it's just kinda conquerPhilly. Get it right. Yeah.
Build the proof of concept.Build proof of concept. Try and
get product market fit Yeah.Which is the hardest part. And
then from there, then just kindof stamp out in the city.
Boom. Boom. Boom. Yeah. Yeah.

Can Can you talk a little bit more about that
product market fit? I mean, isthere Yeah. Something yeah.

It's something to where it's it's
it's, the process in the startupworld. It's called product
market fit, and it's when youknow how much you're gonna
spend, your customers how manycustomers you're gonna get, and
the revenue, and it works. Like,you're not trying to iterate
left and right to get customers.You know ex the exact process of

(49:02):
getting a customer, and thecustomers are finding you and
using you. And that when you'rejust kind of hands off, know how
to get, users and customers touse your product, that's product
market fit.
Yeah. When you don't have toiterate left and right and okay.
Let's try this. Let's try this.When you know exactly how to get
a customer, how much it's gonnacost to get the customer, how

(49:23):
much is it they're gonna spend,and they're coming back to use
it again.
When you have that, that's thegolden goose. You just then with
that, you can start kind ofdoing the exact same thing at a
different city. Yep. And youstamp out because you've got
product market fit, because thecustomer comes to you, comes
back to you, and reuses you, andloves you. I think I forget who

(49:47):
it was.
Or the the founder ofSuperhuman. Okay. He said if the
if the if you would shut downyour service, you want your
customers to scream and shout inpain because you shut down.
Like, you wanna get feedback,and and you wanna build a
product to where if you shutdown, if that service stops,

(50:10):
your customers are clawing,screaming in pain because, like,
they they need the service. Theywanna use that service.
So that's what you all in backof your head of, like, how how
do you build that? I don't know.Yeah.

How do I achieve

it? Yeah. Exactly.

Yeah. Yeah. And your and your drop up is on its
way.

I feel like Drop up is on its way. So
it's still very early. Yeah.Still Still very early. Someone
just someone just, drew a graphfor me.
And it was, you know, the thethe, you know, users and time
and, like, your your kind ofhockey hockey stick. Yeah. And
everyone sees the hockey stick,graph, but they don't see before

(50:49):
the graph, the squiggly line upand down. And, like, that's,
like, five years before you evensee the hockey stick. Right.

So

I'm in that squiggly line, area Right.
Of just trying to figure outwhat works, how to get
customers, and trying left andright new things of how to get
customers Yeah. Yeah. And andhave them come back and use a
product. But no one sees no onethinks about those, you know,
five first previous years beforeyou get, like, the good traction
and then, you know, massivetraction Yeah.

(51:19):
And and massive growth.

They don't see the sweat and tears and blood
and sleepless nights.

That's not that's not on that graph. That's
that's that's five years beforethat graph even sees anything.
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. We got a great service here, you know,
great business. Yeah. Yeah. Ilove what you're doing.
Yeah. Anything, you know, thenext six to twelve months you're
working on?

Yeah. Increasing drop off points,
adding some new features for thehome pickups, and then partner
up with partner up withretailers improving that concept
for the drop off points. Yeah.And then with that, I'll be
ready to, probably raise around,once I prove that retailers are

(52:01):
retail customers are using thesedrop off points to return stuff.
Yeah.
It's and I'm kind of playingaround with the with with with,
like, the the wording, but, youknow, giving giving smaller
smaller retailers the the Amazonreturn experience to where we're
walking to Whole Foods, scan acode, drop it off. I want I want
that to be every single returnthat any anyone has. And that's

(52:23):
kind of what I'm providing withthese drop off points and with
picking up is you're justscreenshotting, uploading,
putting it on your on yourdoorstep. Done. That's your
return process.
Yeah. Yeah. And then we handleeverything from that end.

Yeah. That's great.

Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Yeah.

Where can people find DropUp?

What's your website? Can find DropUp at
dropup.com, up with two p's.Right. Drop up inc on Instagram,
drop up on Facebook, but, youknow, the website is is a place
to go. You sign up, create anaccount there.
If you wanna contact me, DM meon Instagram, Nile Casanova's
Mac or through drop up. My DMsare always open or in the

(53:07):
contact us section on the bottomof the drop up website. Amazing.
Yes, sir.

Yeah. Niall, thank you so much.

I appreciate it. Thanks for having
us. It's been great.

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(53:38):
website shoemakerfilms.com.
Thanks again, and we'll see younext time.

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