August 15, 2022 • 43 mins
This month we discuss financial planning for siblings with Colorado State Treasurer and brother, Dave Young and Founder and President of Oak Wealth Advisors and brother, Mike Walther.
Access the transcript of this episode here.
Resources mentioned in this episode:
Highlights:
- “I entered elected office because my sister was struggling to get essential services." -Dave Young
- “Find the network in your community." -Mike Walther
- “You have to take the first step and listening to those trusted voices is a good way to start." -Dave Young
- “Take a break...celebrate the milestones:" -Mike Walther
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Chris Berstler (00:02):
Welcome to the sibling Leadership Network
podcast.
The sibling Leadership Networkis a national nonprofit whose
mission is to provide siblingsof individuals with disabilities
the information support andtools to advocate with their
brothers and sisters and topromote the issues important to
us and our entire families.
(00:23):
Hello, and thank you for joiningus for another episode of the
SLN Podcast. Today we will betalking about siblings and
finances. I'm joined today byColorado State Treasurer and
Brother Dave Young, and founderand president of oak Wealth
Advisors and brother, MikeWalther. Gentlemen, thank you
for joining us today.
Mike Walther (00:43):
Thank you.
Dave Young (00:44):
Thank you for having us on. Appreciate it.
Chris Berstler (00:46):
I'd like to start off by asking you to tell
us a little bit about yourself,your background and finances and
your work with the siblingcommunity, please.
Dave Young (00:56):
Well, I'll jump in.
I'm Dave Young. I'm thecurrently the Colorado State
Treasurer. And I had been inelect I have been in elected
office since January of 2019. Sotreasurer, as you can imagine,
deals a lot with the finances ofthe state. Most every state has
a treasurer, some of them. It'sa comptroller, but there's
(01:20):
somebody that's managing themoney and between the actual
money that I manage directly inwhat's called our treasury pool,
which is about 20 billion and myfiduciary responsibility with
the public pension board herepara. In the state, there's
another 60 billion at any giventime, I'm responsible for about
(01:42):
$80 billion. So that's, that's apile of money. And I have a
great staff that I work with inboth areas. Prior to being
treasurer, I was a staterepresentative in Colorado, and
the last four years of that timein the statehouse. I was on the
(02:03):
Joint Budget Committee, which isa small committee out of the 100
legislators who put the state'sbudget together annually. So
prior to being in electedoffice, I was actually an
educator so I spent 35 years asa K 12 teacher. And, and part of
that 25 years as a K 12 teacherand 10 years as a as a professor
(02:27):
at higher ed. I got into electedoffice because my sister was
struggling to get essentialservices here in the state of
Colorado. I'm not talking aboutnice to have stuff, I'm talking
about residential placement,where she could find a safe
place to live. And I discoveredalong the way that there were a
(02:48):
lot of other families that werestruggling with the same thing.
And I was we were fighting thisfrom the outside. And when the
opportunity became open for meto jump in as a state
representative, I took theopportunity and really focused
on issues around streamliningMedicaid and funding because I
had a little bit more power onthe inside than I did on the
(03:09):
outside. So that's that's how Icame to be here.
Mike Walther (03:13):
I'm like Walter, and unlike Dave, who is doing
things to macro level, both thestate and federal level to
assist folks with special needsthrough his work as the
treasurer. My entire career hasbeen focused on micro level
working with individuals andfamilies. I got my MBA at
Vanderbilt University and thenwent on to work for a very large
accounting firm doing accountingand tax work as a CPA within
(03:36):
that firm. I earned my CFPdesignation to do more financial
planning, as the firm evolved,in addition to to financial
planning, we also started doinginvestment advisory work. So I
got my CFA designation as well.
So kind of a career learner beenin the investment advisory side,
we lifted out our practice formthe very high net worth
investment consulting firm, and15 years into my career, my wife
(03:57):
said, What would you do if youretire? I thought was an odd
question in my late 30s, to befaced with retirement questions
said no, I'm not saying you'regonna retire, what would you do?
What would make you happiest? Ithought about it. And I knew a
lot about finance, a lot abouttaxes a lot about planning. And
I've got a brother withsignificant special needs and is
on the autism spectrum. And Isaid, Well, I'd create a
(04:20):
business around families like myown to have these unique
challenges that aren't beingserved, where they're being sold
products. Nobody's taken afiduciary approach what they
truly need an understanding ofall the ancillary issues those
families face, in addition tothe tax work and the investment
work. And so watch, go do that.
And so almost 15 years ago, Istarted oak Wealth Advisors to
(04:42):
do exactly that, to providecomprehensive fiduciary planning
to families, regardless of theirwealth, and taking all the
knowledge I gained earlier in mycareer working with wealthy
successful executives andbusiness owners and applying it
to every family so they can havethe best possible financial
planning going forward. And I'vehad more fun last 15 years and
had in the first 15 years by alarge margin, helping families
(05:03):
like my own.
Chris Berstler (05:04):
As siblings of individuals with disabilities.
Why is having a financial planso important?
Mike Walther (05:13):
I think in my mind, it's really hard to feel
comfortable as a parent or as asibling, knowing that your loved
one is going to have all thosethings that we want in life.
Without a plan, we typically usethe analogy with our clients
that we're going to be their GPSsystem, they have to know where
they want to go, they have towant to make the effort to push
(05:34):
the accelerator and turn thewheel, where to provide that
oversight and help them find thebest path with either the most
scenic route, the fastest routeor wherever they want, in terms
of how they get there on thatjourney. So without them knowing
where they want to go, it'sawfully hard for us to do our
job. But with the planning,there's a greater likelihood of
success, and a greaterlikelihood, we can help them
(05:54):
stop and celebrate thosesuccesses along the way, and not
worry about the airline. Butreally enjoying the journey,
enjoying the process, and reallyenjoying every moment of life as
much as possible and print ittake the stress off of the
families, putting it on ourplates, they can really enjoy
their lives and enjoy theirrelationships as much as
possible.
Dave Young (06:12):
There wasn't when I first got into this, there
wasn't a lot of focus onsiblings. But you know, I joined
a couple of organizations herein Colorado. One of them was
parents of adults withdisabilities, Colorado Petco,
you know, so I was reallyfocused on more groups with
parents, and one of the mostheartbreaking things that I
(06:35):
would hear parents say was, Ican't die before my child,
because I don't really have aplan. And if I'm not there
minute by minute, and there's noplan, Once I pass away, what's
going to happen to my loved one,and you know, you can extend
that really to siblings as well.
And none of us are guaranteed along life. And I think people
(06:57):
really want to be sure that, youknow, no one hopes for a
catastrophe or disaster. But ifsomething happens, you want to
know that your loved one isgoing to be well cared for and
without a financial plan.
That's, I think, what leads tothat heartburn? You know, I
think this is where Mike's workis really, really important.
(07:17):
Because you've, you've got tohave your financial ducks in a
row. And if you do, you can be abetter service to your family
member.
Chris Berstler (07:25):
What starting tips do you have for any
beginners out there? How aboutfor siblings on a lower income?
Mike Walther (07:34):
I think one of the keys for all families, and
especially those maybe there'smore limited resources is to
find the network in yourcommunity, whoever the
specialists are the agenciesthat are most supportive of your
loved ones unique challenges,and build that network. It
doesn't have to be national,this is a local thing. First,
(07:55):
find out who the Medicaidproviders are, find out who the
best health care providers are,find out who the support
agencies are, and find out whothe families are, who kind of
have their stuff together, askthem questions where they get
that resource, how they put thethings in place, who are they
working with who's in theirnetwork, and that helps you
build your own network. Becausewith that, it's easier to find
(08:16):
the answers more quickly andmaybe more affordably. And that
works for all of us. So we as afirm do that. And I think it
works at the individual level aswell to make sure that we have
the right people around us tohelp us care for our loved one
because it's too much to ask ofone set of parents or even a
sibling to take on all that careand oversight. It takes a
village literally to help raiseour loved ones as best possible.
(08:39):
And that network is such a keypiece of that.
Dave Young (08:42):
Well, I totally agree with Mike I, that's
exactly what I was doing withPaco here in Colorado, was
reaching out to see what trustedvoices would be able to tell me.
And you know, the other thingthat is kind of related to this
but not connected directly to itis the some of the work I'm
doing in the treasury is to helptry to stand up a retirement
(09:03):
savings program for people herein Colorado that work in
moderate to low income jobs thatdon't have access to a
retirement savings plan at work.
Turns out in Colorado, that's amillion people that's 40% of our
private sector workforce. And wedid a deep study on this. And
what we discovered was thatpeople wanted to save for
(09:24):
retirement, they didn't know howto get started. And I think you
could extend that conversationto people who want to have a
financial plan for their lives.
They don't know how to getstarted. And so, you know,
having those trusted voices thatyou can lean on I think is
really important because ifsomebody has already broken the
trail for you on the pathway,and it looks like they're on a
(09:45):
good pathway to success, and youknow, certainly nothing wrong
with with following that but Ido think that people get a
little overwhelmed by all theterminology and in the financial
sector and often they aren'tsure if they're are getting sold
a bill of goods, they'rereluctant to jump in, they're
worried they're gonna losemoney. It just results in
(10:07):
paralysis. And so you're the oldChinese proverb but your journey
of 1000 miles begins with onestep. But you have to take that
first step. And using trustedvoices, I think is really a good
way to do that.
Chris Berstler (10:22):
Excellent. Thank you both very much. I know
personally, that was something Istruggled with all the financial
terms, I'm not a financialperson. So it freaked me out.
Dave Young (10:32):
Well, and you don't want to lose money. Right?
Exactly. Yeah, you work hard forit. Exactly. But in the process
of not wanting to lose money,you're actually falling behind.
Inaction creates that problemfor you as well. And it's, it's
a catch 22 that often peopledon't realize until there was
quite a ways down their life'sjourneys that they should have
(10:54):
started earlier on this work.
Mike Walther (10:57):
Also say to that the language can be a barrier.
Even within the statutescommunity, there's so many sub
segments where there's acronyms,where others might not know what
that specific acronym means. Andthey're, they're afraid to look
stupid, by asking the questionwhat that means. We do it all
the time, we're still learning,we've actually built a list of
(11:17):
acronyms, because it's so hardfor us to keep track of all of
them. And so I can't imagine forsomeone who's not in this
business, helping families dayto day, what it's like when you
come across that for the firsttime. And I think just to be
humble in the process, and bewilling to ask questions, and
continuing being a learner tolearn more about what's out
there, what's available, andwhat those things mean. And as
(11:38):
you both stated, try to take theacronyms out when you're talking
with other friends and otherpeople with the same challenges.
Talk about it in the terms thatyou understand, it'll be easier
for them to understand you teachthem as well.
Chris Berstler (11:49):
Yeah, I'm actually really happy you
brought up the acronyms thingthat was also something I
struggled with for quite awhile, not only just with
fiduciary stuff, but evenMedicaid, they have their own
language. So
Dave Young (12:02):
okay, you know, my wife is now a state
representative. So I think thetwo of us are actually pretty
good problem solvers. And wecould navigate the Medicaid
system is nearly impossible.
And, you know, I'm not blaminganybody, but it's just the
reality that these systems arereally challenging for people.
And the and, you know, you mixin, and what we've learned was
(12:25):
that, you know, for many years,we had the crisis of the day,
frankly, and you get sooverwhelmed with just trying to
figure out, I mentioned, mysister struggling to get
residential placement, and shewent through 20 residential
placements one year. I mean, Idon't like to move at all. And
(12:46):
she moved 20 times, sometimes,most of the time, not by choice.
And so we were so a meshed in,you know, this crisis, daily
crisis, that we didn't have timeto take a step back and figure
out well, what's the big planhere? And that's just
residential. She's got healthcare issues that pop up all the
(13:06):
time, and, and everything else.
So I, you know, I certainlyunderstand the challenges that
families, siblings, parents aregoing through. Because, you
know, people say, Well, whyaren't you on a plan? It's like,
Well, I'm just trying to, youknow, deal with the crisis of
the day, I don't have time for aplan. So it's tough.
Mike Walther (13:28):
Yeah, acronyms things to think about that the
planning piece of it. I don'tknow how many times we've had
families come into our office toask, does your loved one have
SSI or SSDI? And they say, Yes.
And then we ask, Well, whichone? And they look at us with
crossed eyes? What do you mean?
Which one? Like those are twodifferent major federal
(13:48):
programs? Do you haveSupplemental Security Income or
Social Security DisabilityIncome? Hmm. So I mean, those
are basic things that eachfamily's got to navigate with
and try to find the bestresource, the best fit for their
loved one. And the most basic ofthe acronyms can still be very
confusing the special needscommunity.
Dave Young (14:05):
Well, and then you throw in all the waivers if your
state goes down the waiverpathway just gets more complex
all the way?
Mike Walther (14:12):
Absolutely.
Chris Berstler (14:15):
What is some continued work to be aware of
once you actually do have afinancial plan in place?
Dave Young (14:22):
Well, I think I think you have to keep reviewing
it. You can't just assume thatthat's going to work forever.
And I know that's a littledisconcerting, because it does
take some work to put a plantogether. This is why it's
helpful to have somebody likeMike to to assist because
unfortunately, the the economiclandscape and the financial
(14:44):
landscape is constantly changingand what worked, you know, five
or 10 years ago may or may notwork as well as what other
programs that may be availablenow or, or thinking that may
have evolved over the last fiveor 10 years and so on. Um, as
much as it's time consuming todo that, you know, once you get
it locked in, don't just put itup on a shelf and forget about
(15:08):
it that needs to be reviewed.
And you know, that's true withall the aspects of somebody's
financial planning, you know, wedo that with wills as well, you
don't just write the will andthen, and then forget about it,
you've got to come back and takea look at it. We discovered that
with my parents, because theyhad had crafted a will that we
weren't even aware that weweren't involved with and then,
(15:30):
you know, we asked that theykind of open that back up again,
to look at it and realize thatsome of the language that was in
the world was going to createall kinds of problems for my
sister, once they passed away.
And so it prompted us to go andget an attorney to help us fix
(15:50):
that. But had we not kind ofpressed the issue a little bit,
that would have created somereal Medicaid havoc for my
sister.
Mike Walther (15:59):
Yeah, I would say that, you know, we're all
blessed to have families likeDave's in government now,
because I think back to when mybrother was younger, and my
parents were told to quote,brother institution and forget
about it. Because there were nofuture opportunities. There was
no housing, there were noemployment opportunities. So
it's pretty bleak. Obviouslyterrible advice, then and even
worse advice now to hear someonesay something like that. But the
(16:20):
reality is that, especially onthe housing front, even as
recent as 10, or 20 years ago,there weren't many options that
were attracted to families, andso many scrambled to build their
own, find their own putresources around their loved
one, as opposed to choosingamong multiple options in the
community, which still todaydoesn't really exist. But we're
getting better because we haveleaders like Dave, who are more
(16:41):
aware of that, who are pushingfor more opportunities, more
legislation for support, andmore opportunities. And with
those things, I think the futureis brighter for all families, in
terms of opportunities will beout there. But Dave, so right
that you've got to stay current,you got to be looking at things
with your eyes wide open andstaying connected to your
network, to find out whatopportunities are on the horizon
(17:01):
that might be attractive topursue or to support as a
family. And the other thing, Ithink it's critical is
communicating broadly, beyondjust your immediate family,
there might be others who havegreat intentions and great love
your sibling. And if they dosomething very generous in terms
of leaving something in theirestate, and they weren't aware
(17:22):
of the planning you've done, itcan make things more challenging
to get all the benefitsrestored, and make sure
everything's gonna work goingforward. Whereas if there's
broader communication, whetherit's a holiday or a get
together, or just some massletter that sent out explaining
what the family has done to allthose who might play a role, we
think that's really important.
We hate it. When the oppositeoccurs, when there's no
(17:42):
communication with everything'scut close to the vest. And then
something happens to it's easilyavoidable, with a couple of
conversations. And I always usethe example with our clients
that would you rather have thatuncle or aunt say notice serving
in some capacity in the futureafter you're dead? And you can't
change the people you've namedin your estate documents? Or in
(18:04):
your plans? Would you rathertalk to them now? Discuss what
and what the responsibilitiesare? Discuss what well, you'd
like them to play? Have them askquestions to get more
comfortable with it, and thentell you yes or no. And if they
say no, you can find someoneelse to put in that role. After
you're dead. It's really hard tochange things from the grave. So
having those communicationstoday is invaluable for the
family. And then As Dave said,things are changing. So you got
(18:27):
to update that network of peoplewill be responsible and your
loved ones life. And if you as asibling end up playing that
primary caregiver role or havethat responsibility, it falls to
you to make sure thatcommunication continues.
Chris Berstler (18:42):
What are some must haves for a secure
financial future for our sibs?
Mike Walther (18:48):
Well, I think the one that I mentioned earlier,
the base benefits, if you thinkabout it, the government wants
to do three things for someoneto provide us with food,
shelter, and some minimal levelof income if you can't provide
your own. So we want to makesure that we have the income
source, which for many is goingto be SSI, the Supplemental
Security Income, potentially ifthat loved one's working, and
(19:10):
then unable to work in thefuture, that income benefit may
shift to being SSDI DisabilityIncome benefits available to
everyone who is unable to work,but has work history. Both of
those benefits come with medicalinsurance. Yes, that would come
along typically with MedicaidSSDI typically comes along with
(19:30):
Medicare. And it's possible as aloved one goes down that
continuum a life that didn'thave with both Medicaid and
Medicare and potentially privateinsurance as well. We want to
make sure you have at least somebaseline of medical support for
whatever comes down the road.
And then one that people oftenforget and they overlook it as
being valuable is food. And withthe SNAP program that can be 200
dollars plus of food everymonth. If you do the math on
(19:54):
that it's $2,500 a year. Do thattime 50 years, all of a sudden,
it's a really valuable benefitfor that loved one. And people
of our generation tend to thinkof food stamps as something that
well, a couple people get that,no, I don't know what the
numbers are Dave may have theinformation, but I think it's
close to a quarter of thepopulation or more, is getting
some level of benefit to theSNAP program. So making sure we
(20:17):
get access to those base levelsupports, I think is really
important as a starting point.
And then adding on as Davementioned, the Medicaid waivers
depending on the state, you'rein the other local supports. And
then whatever is specific tothat individual's needs, and
care, building those thingsaround that, but I think is a
(20:37):
base, you start there, and thenyou make sure that you have
whatever assets are available tothat loved one structured in
such a way that doesn'tjeopardize those base benefits.
Dave Young (20:46):
You know, we both we have special needs trusts. And
we also have able achieving abetter life experience, those
kinds of accounts as well. Youknow, and it kind of dovetails
with the previous question, whenwe're talking about telling your
extended family, you know, theplan. And sometimes people
(21:07):
aren't aware that they can plugmoney into accounts like these,
and really assist your yourbrother or sister in great and
great ways and not jeopardizetheir Medicaid status as a
result of that. But you reallyhave to kind of understand what
each one is for. So you make thegood decision. And that's not an
(21:28):
easy process for anybody tofigure out. But I don't know,
Mike, if you want to talk alittle bit about both of those
types of savings accounts ortrust.
Mike Walther (21:41):
Thanks, Dave. And I agree, it's complicated for
families to understand whichbucket to put the money in,
you've got the money flowing infrom Social Security Agreement
that's got to go into theperson's own account initially.
And then where that gets parkedbecomes another question. So
you've got people accounts,which have become a wonderful
new planning resource forfamilies going the last five,
six years, where they can haveassets growing tax deferred in
(22:05):
account in the individuals name,but it's not a countable
resource. So when the governmentlooks and says, Okay, this
individual is applying forreceiving the SSI and Medicaid
benefits, how many assets theyhave, and how much money they're
making, that ABLE account canhave up to $100,000 in it, and
not jeopardize their access doesMedicaid and SSI benefits.
(22:26):
Conversely, the trust a specialneeds trust can have an infinite
amount of money in it, and alsonot jeopardize those benefits.
But the conversation I had withattorneys when ABLE accounts
first came out and some of thelocal attorneys said well, you
can manage things just asefficiently in a trust. I think
in many cases, they were sayingthat because they want to
protect their own benefits andselling trust work. I think that
(22:49):
worked hand in hand, there'scertain things that are much
better than ABLE account. Andother things that are better in
a trust account. Certainlylarger amounts go into the
trust. But a trust, if it hasany income at all, must file a
federal tax return, the ABLEaccount reporting in most states
is nothing more than documentingwhat was spent out of the ABLE
account, and that you didn'tover fund it. And none of the
(23:10):
state plans will allow you toput more than the annual
contribution limit in there,which this year is 16,000. With
inflation, I'm going to guess menorth of 17,000 next year. And
I'll continue to rise withinflation in the future. But the
trust amount can be infinite.
And whereas some attorneys wouldsay well, let's just use the
trust not bother be able tocount, we push back and say no,
the ABLE account gives you taxdeferred growth has more
(23:32):
flexible distributionopportunities for that loved one
to have more self determinationmore control of their own
assets. Whereas the trustaccount is driven by what the
trustee wants to distribute forit has more limited
opportunities for distribution,and requires a tax return every
year. So we want to reallyminimize expenses, we want to
use the ABLE account. And ifthere aren't going to be
(23:54):
significant resources inheritedfrom other sources, parents,
other loved ones in the family.
There's something called apooled trust, and every state
has at least one if not morepooled trust, where families
with more limited resources candonate whatever they do have to
that individuals account withinthe pooled trust, they then get
(24:14):
the professional management,professional resources of a
trustee, even with a much morelimited asset base. So that can
work really well in tandem or inlieu of a third party Special
Needs Trust Fund about otherpeople. And the ABLE account can
be funded by really anyone aslong as doesn't exceed the
annual contribution limits.
Dave Young (24:35):
Well, and that I think you had asked earlier, you
know, you know what resourcesare available for people with
lower incomes. And certainly thepooled trust is a way to do that
because you can put very smallamounts in there and then
benefit from a professionalmanager, helping you keep up
with the rate of inflation,which we were all struggling
(24:57):
with at the moment.
Chris Berstler (24:58):
Just listening to you guys. My head is
spinning.
Oh, we were supposed to do thatwe're supposed to clear things
up not making more complicated.
Sorry about that.
No, no. Really good opportunityfor a lot of people to hear
about these things like this.
This is the first time I'veheard about pool trusts. I've
got an ABLE account in a specialneeds trust in place for my
sister. And that took me foreverjust to get set up. Because like
(25:22):
I said, I'm not a numbers guy.
This is great. This is reallygood information. Thank you
both.
Dave Young (25:28):
So did you go to an attorney to help you do that
work? Or a planner? What did youdo?
Chris Berstler (25:34):
I went to an attorney, I originally was
looking at a financial planner.
But at the same time, I wasgoing through the process of
having my mother emotionallycommitted to everything, you
know, the whole sibling journey,getting the whole family on
board. Right? It, it was a twoyear process. And at the end of
the day, having an attorney inplace getting her will in place,
(25:58):
was more direct, and she wasn'twilling to commit to a financial
planner. So we kind of just dida mix. And it's still kind of in
the work in the background...
Dave Young (26:10):
Well, I'm glad you could kind of give us a little
light on that. Because I thinkthat's, that's really what
people are confronted with is,you know, work in a vacuum, and
you have a lot of familydynamics that occur often.
Mike Walther (26:27):
Chris, I'll share with you, I think your scenario
is much more common than I'dlike to admit. But my own
parents who have given me awonderful life and done amazing
things for my brother havereally fallen short, a number of
areas that I know would benefitmy brother. And as a sibling, I
think we all struggle with beinglittle bit younger than our
parents who had a different setof expectations and different
(26:50):
set of opportunities when ourloved ones were born than what
exists today, as we try topresent them with those new
ideas, new opportunities,oftentimes, they're set in their
ways. They don't want to hearthose things, or they hear them
differently. And they want tomake those changes because as we
discussed with Dave sistermoving way too many times in a
year, and change is hard. And sothat's why we see so many of our
(27:12):
loved ones living with theirparents well into their parents
80s, or when they pass away,which is almost never optimal,
with all the change that comeswith death and transition. And
so it's very difficult, even forme as a professional advisor to
get my own parents to do what Iknow is my brother's best
interest, which he doesn'talways articulate well to them.
(27:33):
Because it requires change. Andchange is hard. And how can
anyone know better than a parentof a loved one with special
needs, even if it's a siblingwho's been there side by side
with their brother or sister for50 plus years. So I think it's a
challenge in all the spaces,siblings trying to get our
parents to understand that atsome point, we're ready and
willing to take over that mantleof responsibility. Getting them
(27:56):
to let go of that, and gettingthem to make the changes
necessary for that to occur is achallenge we all face.
Dave Young (28:01):
Boy, that really happened with us, you know, I
mean, and I love my parents,they took that challenge on for
an entire lifelong lifetime, youknow, but my sister was faced
with liver failure, and needed aliver transplant. And so the
kind of common dialogue that wewere having in the family was
(28:22):
you live your life, we've gotthis, we, you know, this, this,
this is our child, we're goingto continue to take care of your
sister and and all that, butthen when they were finally
faced with a really significantchallenge, they went, Okay,
we're over our head, you know,we want you to become her legal
cold guardians, and, and takethis on and, and it was a real
(28:45):
shift in thinking for them toget to that point, then we could
actually work on their will, andbegin to talk about some of the
things that were in there thatwe're really going to cause some
problems and, and it challengesus to go look at our own
finances and our own will aswell. If we're you know, you
can't point the finger atsomebody else if you haven't
been doing that work yourself.
And so, yeah, it's it's a it's agood process, but it's often
(29:07):
quite, it's not a smoothprocess.
Chris Berstler (29:12):
So what resources might you have to
share with listeners to helpplan and keep track of their own
financial plans,
Mike Walther (29:19):
I've got one that it's kind of a shameless plug
for a for profit company. Butit's really true using a lot
with our clients. And I'm hopingto get my own family to use it
more. It's called vest life. Sovest is in the kind of apparel
you wear on your chest life. Andwhat they do is they take the
letter of intent concept, or acare guide, as we call it in our
(29:39):
firm that basically isresponsible for documenting all
the non legal things that areimportant in that person's life.
Whereas your trust documents canexplain what's going to happen
with the assets left for theirfuture benefit. There's new
medical records that you can goto the medical team to look up
and figure out what medicationsand therapies treatments have
been done. successfully, thereis the Where does all the other
(30:03):
stuff fit? And the answer is inthat care guide or letter of
intent where you document, youknow, desires, goals, family
traditions, quirks, behaviors,whatever it might be, that's
institutional, and a parents orsiblings mind that needs to be
there for future caregivers,whether it's the sibling playing
(30:25):
one of those roles, or siblingsupervising others playing those
roles. That needs to bedocumented what best life does
is it allows the family to do inwhatever format is best for
them. So if it's taking a video,and uploading that, if it's
writing out a detailed documentand uploading that, but the nice
part about it is the sharing andthe compartmentalization of the
(30:46):
different elements. So ifthere's medical things, you put
that in one bucket, and you canshare that with people who might
be playing a role as an advisor.
On the medical side, if thereare things about daily
caregiving, you put that in adifferent silo. And you can
share that with certain people.
You don't have to give everybodyall the information, you give
them what they need. And thoselittle segments can be updated
(31:06):
and shared electronically, on aGoogle doc type system where
only certain people have thesecure access to the
information, but they haveexactly what they need. And we
think that's a wonderful format.
So that while we believeeveryone in the family should
know what's going on, those whoprovide those caregiving roles
have exactly the informationthey need, they can share
feedback, they can uploadinformation to it as well. And
(31:28):
to the extent the individualthemselves wants to play a role
and able to play a role, theycan be involved with all those
different elements at their ownpace. So that format of
information sharing is amazingto us, because it allows for the
future caregivers to have theaccess they need without having
to go find some document thatcan be stuck in a drawer
(31:49):
somewhere that may never beuncovered.
Chris Berstler (31:52):
Are there any resources that you can point to
that are bipoc specific,
Mike Walther (31:57):
much of the best work unfortunately, is being
done in the nonprofit sector,there should be more of this
focus in the for profit sector,and I'm a member of the National
Association of PersonalFinancial Advisors. It's a group
of financial advisors who areall fiduciaries, you all must
do, it's our clients bestinterest. And there's a number
of subgroups within that, thatare really focused not just on
(32:18):
bipoc, and Dei, but I'm tryingto get good financial education
out to the masses, regardless ofwhat your background is, no
matter what your experiences,feeding it into bite sized
pieces about the jargon thatpeople can understand and
benefit from, regardless ofwhere they are in their
financial journey. And thenunderstanding that in the area
(32:39):
of special needs. It's not colorspecific race specific religion
specific. Anyone can end up withautism, or Down syndrome or
cerebral palsy, those things arenot specific to a gender or
anything else. So the work we'redoing in the planning side that
Dave's doing, you know, at thestate and federal level is
really looking at the entirepopulation, it's really not
(33:01):
specific to older white males,the privilege classes, etc. It's
making sure that the laws andopportunities are available for
everyone. And then the push is,I think, to get the education
out there so that people knowwhere the resources are, how to
benefit from the supports, andutilize what's available, so
that it doesn't get to worstcase scenario. I think there's
(33:22):
lots of things that are comingdown the road, I think, greater
opportunities for those in thebipoc community to get things
that are even more targeted themin the financial services
community. The numbers areterrible in terms of the numbers
of people coming in to thatpractice, that have those
backgrounds. So if you want towork with someone who's got a
similar background to looks likeyou understand your background
(33:43):
and history, it's harder to findthose professionals, that's
changing, but it's going to taketime, much like the other
resource they're taking time tocome to bear whether it's
housing in the special needscommunity, or whether it's other
medical and insurance supportscovering things. We're evolving
as a society around providingbetter specialty support that
includes supporting all those inthe BIPOC community.
Chris Berstler (34:06):
Finances can seem incredibly complicated,
like we had talked about beforewith all the acronyms and it can
be really overwhelming to manysibs. What if I don't have any
confidence in navigating andmaintaining accounts? What are
my other options?
Mike Walther (34:21):
For this is one that we counsel clients on
constantly. In our experience,it seems like in most families
where there's siblings with aloved one with special needs,
the siblings take one of twopolar positions, one of which is
I want nothing to do with mysibling once I get to college
and graduate and move to theother coast and get away from
(34:42):
this because I've been swimmingin it my entire life and I'm
tired. The other half is theokay mom and dad, what can I do
to help? And so in that case,you've got the willing
participant and you want to workwith them and keep them
involved. We think that siblingrelationship is is absolutely
essential to be maintained. Andwhen two parents who've been
(35:05):
kind of sharing duties hand offall the work to one sibling,
that's a load. And maybe thatsibling doesn't have the
financial background doesn'thave the healthcare background
doesn't have all the things theywould necessarily need to be
Superman to care for theirsibling and do all those things
in the future, there is a rolethat can be put in place on the
(35:25):
estate planning side withrespect to the trust document
called a trust protector. Welove having clients consider
that in their planning. In atrust, you have the trustee who
has the sole responsibility formaking all the distributions
decisions, filing the taxreturns, making sure the
investments, the assets that arein that account are managed
appropriately. That's a lot toput on someone who maybe doesn't
(35:47):
have that kind of a background,but wants to help. Whereas if
you have them be a trustprotector, they can have the
role of simply hiring and firingthe trustee who's responsible
for doing those things, or theoutside investment advisor, if
they bifurcate, those roles,have someone doing the
administrative part and someonein an investment part. If you
did that fellow, it'd be thetrust protector, their only job
(36:10):
is to make sure that thosepeople are doing their jobs. So
become a supervisor, if you willhave the estate plan. So
therefore, they're got fewerhours to put in, much less day
to day responsibility. But theycan be that key communication
link between the sibling who'sthe beneficiary of those assets,
and the trustee and theinvestment advisors so that
everybody knows what's needed.
And that sibling played the roleof trust protector is an
(36:33):
incredibly valuable position,but doesn't have the day to day
responsibility and stress toplay in those other roles. And
they can also then be thatcommunication link to all the
agencies providing care andsupport on the outside that are
outside of the trustresponsibilities. So that way,
they can keep the sibling lovingrelationship and not be the one
telling their sibling, oh, no,you can't have that. No, we're
(36:57):
not doing that. And all of asudden, the knows they're
continuing get thrown into therelationship break up that great
bond they had before. And that'sso unfortunate when you have a
loved one who wants to play therole. And it becomes
contentious. So if we can keepthat sibling loving bond in
place, and have theresponsibility given to some
others with a supervisory role,that seems to us to be the best
(37:17):
case scenario, in most cases.
Dave Young (37:21):
In my in my family's case, it was just my sister and
me. And so, you know, as myparents got to that point in
life, where they just feltoverwhelmed that the whole
burden fell to me. But I marriedup. So my wife agreed to be co
Guardian with me and her family,which is a large family, you
(37:42):
know, all want to play roles inthis as well. So not sure what
that's going to look like withnieces and nephews who are in
the Chicago area. But you knowthat you've given me a little
roadmap there, Mike, that'sgood. I like that.
Chris Berstler (37:59):
What parting words of encouragement might you
have for any sibs currentlyplanning their financial
futures?
Mike Walther (38:07):
Well, for one thing back in days, it's people
like him getting into electedoffice will make the most
change. It's so frustrating forme as an advisor, who's not a
very good advocate at thepolitical level with our clients
to see so many legislators notget it, and then see our little
micro groups go to the state andfederal level with their, their
(38:27):
campaigns try to get attention.
Whereas other groups are muchbetter at getting the attention
of legislators we go in smalllittle pockets, it's less
effective. But once we getlegislators in place who have
lived experience, they startpassing laws start having those
discussions that are morefavorable to our community, that
understand what a huge portionof the population we actually
(38:48):
are, even though our voice isn'twell heard, we're out there, we
have votes, and we care. Butwe're just not well organized,
whereas other groups are. And sohaving legislators who are
living it, like Davis, who nowhave the ability from their role
and perspective to help makechange. That's the greatest
possible feature we have becauseit's so hard individual level,
(39:09):
to say, I need this, I needthat. And it's not there. It's
making those things moreavailable. And I guess my one
last parting thought would bethat this is a journey for every
family. And that is I mentionedback at the outset of this
podcast. Think of yourself as asibling with the GPS for your
loved one. If you're not toolong trip, you're gonna take
(39:32):
breaks. So don't feel likeyou're constantly pressured to
do better tomorrow and to makeanother change. To push your
sibling forward. It's okay. Takea break. Take some time away.
You went on a trip anyway. alsocelebrate the milestones stop
and see the world's largest ballof twine. You're driving across
the country. It's okay. You cancelebrate those little
milestones along the way. Stopand have the cheeseburger that's
(39:52):
off your diet plan. That's okay,too. It's fun. You can look for
the joy and laughter in life.
It's okay. Pay to do thosethings. It doesn't have to be
stressful all the time, find thehappy moments and celebrate
those with your sibling. Andthen love your sibling for who
they are. Right? All of us havesiblings, they've got their
quirks. Heck, we have our ownquirks. It's cool to celebrate
(40:15):
those things and love them forwho they are. And don't wait to
love them until they haveachieved X, Y, and Z. Love them
for where they are today. Helpthem get where they want to be.
And remember, it's where theywant to be not where you want
them to be. That's mostimportant. If you keep those
things in mind, I think you'llhave a great relationship with
your sibling for a long time.
And everyone's been better off
Dave Young (40:33):
great words of wisdom, I really appreciate
that, you know, if I would tendto default a little bit of the
politics into the legislation,on closing remarks, just because
that's how I spend a lot of mytime. So I think that's a narrow
response, maybe are closingremarks, Crystal, what you're
asking for, for maybe a moreglobal response. But I do think
(40:58):
that there are some reallegislative changes that we need
to make that are going to makelives easier if we make them.
And I do understand that it'shard to build that political
momentum. You have groups thatare like, like this network that
are trying to bring advocatestogether. And sometimes it gets
a little, a little tough, youknow, you don't feel like you're
(41:20):
being heard. Let me just tellyou, from my experience, as a
legislator, that the voices fromthe community are the ones that
are most valued. And let me justtell you a quick story. I had a
bill, we were trying to run toallow people who use wheelchairs
to get, you know, the right kindof wheelchair, not some standard
(41:43):
wheelchair. And, you know, I hadthis bill and I was in front of
committee and I looked up at allthe committee members and they
were on their phones, they werelooking at their watches, they
were yawning, on and on and on.
And we had an advocate for thecommunity come in and provide
her testimony. And literallyafter she spoke, I looked up and
(42:04):
and people were sobbing. Theywere crying. And when
legislators I've never seenthis, the tears were spurting
out. It was burning out, it wasso emotional. And this is the
story that we have to tell thatis so powerful that people will
listen to. And really this iswhat legislators want to hear.
(42:27):
They want to hear what is reallygoing to make a difference in
people's lives. I can't tell youevery legislators that way. But
the ones that by far and awaythat I serve with even when you
think there's all kinds ofpolitical disruption and and
disarray. At the end of the day,they're there because they want
to do something right for thecommunity. And I think they
(42:48):
recognize when when somebody hasreally given them the straight
scoop of what has to happen. Sodon't fall back. Keep pushing
forward. Keep telling yourpersonal story. It'll pay off.
Chris Berstler (43:02):
Excellent points. Excellent advice. Thank
you so much. I really appreciateyour time. Thank you so much for
joining me today. This has beenan enlightening conversation. So
thank you very much.
Mike Walther (43:13):
Thanks for having us.
Dave Young (43:14):
You bet.
Chris Berstler (43:16):
Find resources, tools and information about the
sibling experience on siblingleadership dot board. The
sibling Leadership Network is anonprofit and we rely on support
from our audience. Find thedonation button on our homepage
and contribute to the evergrowing sibling movement.
Welcome to the sibling Leadership Network
podcast.
The sibling Leadership Networkis a national nonprofit whose
mission is to provide siblingsof individuals with disabilities
the information support andtools to advocate with their
brothers and sisters and topromote the issues important to
us and our entire families.
(00:23):
Hello, and thank you for joiningus for another episode of the
SLN Podcast. Today we will betalking about siblings and
finances. I'm joined today byColorado State Treasurer and
Brother Dave Young, and founderand president of oak Wealth
Advisors and brother, MikeWalther. Gentlemen, thank you
for joining us today.
Mike Walther (00:43):
Thank you.
Dave Young (00:44):
Thank you for having us on. Appreciate it.
Chris Berstler (00:46):
I'd like to start off by asking you to tell
us a little bit about yourself,your background and finances and
your work with the siblingcommunity, please.
Dave Young (00:56):
Well, I'll jump in.
I'm Dave Young. I'm thecurrently the Colorado State
Treasurer. And I had been inelect I have been in elected
office since January of 2019. Sotreasurer, as you can imagine,
deals a lot with the finances ofthe state. Most every state has
a treasurer, some of them. It'sa comptroller, but there's
(01:20):
somebody that's managing themoney and between the actual
money that I manage directly inwhat's called our treasury pool,
which is about 20 billion and myfiduciary responsibility with
the public pension board herepara. In the state, there's
another 60 billion at any giventime, I'm responsible for about
(01:42):
$80 billion. So that's, that's apile of money. And I have a
great staff that I work with inboth areas. Prior to being
treasurer, I was a staterepresentative in Colorado, and
the last four years of that timein the statehouse. I was on the
(02:03):
Joint Budget Committee, which isa small committee out of the 100
legislators who put the state'sbudget together annually. So
prior to being in electedoffice, I was actually an
educator so I spent 35 years asa K 12 teacher. And, and part of
that 25 years as a K 12 teacherand 10 years as a as a professor
(02:27):
at higher ed. I got into electedoffice because my sister was
struggling to get essentialservices here in the state of
Colorado. I'm not talking aboutnice to have stuff, I'm talking
about residential placement,where she could find a safe
place to live. And I discoveredalong the way that there were a
(02:48):
lot of other families that werestruggling with the same thing.
And I was we were fighting thisfrom the outside. And when the
opportunity became open for meto jump in as a state
representative, I took theopportunity and really focused
on issues around streamliningMedicaid and funding because I
had a little bit more power onthe inside than I did on the
(03:09):
outside. So that's that's how Icame to be here.
Mike Walther (03:13):
I'm like Walter, and unlike Dave, who is doing
things to macro level, both thestate and federal level to
assist folks with special needsthrough his work as the
treasurer. My entire career hasbeen focused on micro level
working with individuals andfamilies. I got my MBA at
Vanderbilt University and thenwent on to work for a very large
accounting firm doing accountingand tax work as a CPA within
(03:36):
that firm. I earned my CFPdesignation to do more financial
planning, as the firm evolved,in addition to to financial
planning, we also started doinginvestment advisory work. So I
got my CFA designation as well.
So kind of a career learner beenin the investment advisory side,
we lifted out our practice formthe very high net worth
investment consulting firm, and15 years into my career, my wife
(03:57):
said, What would you do if youretire? I thought was an odd
question in my late 30s, to befaced with retirement questions
said no, I'm not saying you'regonna retire, what would you do?
What would make you happiest? Ithought about it. And I knew a
lot about finance, a lot abouttaxes a lot about planning. And
I've got a brother withsignificant special needs and is
on the autism spectrum. And Isaid, Well, I'd create a
(04:20):
business around families like myown to have these unique
challenges that aren't beingserved, where they're being sold
products. Nobody's taken afiduciary approach what they
truly need an understanding ofall the ancillary issues those
families face, in addition tothe tax work and the investment
work. And so watch, go do that.
And so almost 15 years ago, Istarted oak Wealth Advisors to
(04:42):
do exactly that, to providecomprehensive fiduciary planning
to families, regardless of theirwealth, and taking all the
knowledge I gained earlier in mycareer working with wealthy
successful executives andbusiness owners and applying it
to every family so they can havethe best possible financial
planning going forward. And I'vehad more fun last 15 years and
had in the first 15 years by alarge margin, helping families
(05:03):
like my own.
Chris Berstler (05:04):
As siblings of individuals with disabilities.
Why is having a financial planso important?
Mike Walther (05:13):
I think in my mind, it's really hard to feel
comfortable as a parent or as asibling, knowing that your loved
one is going to have all thosethings that we want in life.
Without a plan, we typically usethe analogy with our clients
that we're going to be their GPSsystem, they have to know where
they want to go, they have towant to make the effort to push
(05:34):
the accelerator and turn thewheel, where to provide that
oversight and help them find thebest path with either the most
scenic route, the fastest routeor wherever they want, in terms
of how they get there on thatjourney. So without them knowing
where they want to go, it'sawfully hard for us to do our
job. But with the planning,there's a greater likelihood of
success, and a greaterlikelihood, we can help them
(05:54):
stop and celebrate thosesuccesses along the way, and not
worry about the airline. Butreally enjoying the journey,
enjoying the process, and reallyenjoying every moment of life as
much as possible and print ittake the stress off of the
families, putting it on ourplates, they can really enjoy
their lives and enjoy theirrelationships as much as
possible.
Dave Young (06:12):
There wasn't when I first got into this, there
wasn't a lot of focus onsiblings. But you know, I joined
a couple of organizations herein Colorado. One of them was
parents of adults withdisabilities, Colorado Petco,
you know, so I was reallyfocused on more groups with
parents, and one of the mostheartbreaking things that I
(06:35):
would hear parents say was, Ican't die before my child,
because I don't really have aplan. And if I'm not there
minute by minute, and there's noplan, Once I pass away, what's
going to happen to my loved one,and you know, you can extend
that really to siblings as well.
And none of us are guaranteed along life. And I think people
(06:57):
really want to be sure that, youknow, no one hopes for a
catastrophe or disaster. But ifsomething happens, you want to
know that your loved one isgoing to be well cared for and
without a financial plan.
That's, I think, what leads tothat heartburn? You know, I
think this is where Mike's workis really, really important.
(07:17):
Because you've, you've got tohave your financial ducks in a
row. And if you do, you can be abetter service to your family
member.
Chris Berstler (07:25):
What starting tips do you have for any
beginners out there? How aboutfor siblings on a lower income?
Mike Walther (07:34):
I think one of the keys for all families, and
especially those maybe there'smore limited resources is to
find the network in yourcommunity, whoever the
specialists are the agenciesthat are most supportive of your
loved ones unique challenges,and build that network. It
doesn't have to be national,this is a local thing. First,
(07:55):
find out who the Medicaidproviders are, find out who the
best health care providers are,find out who the support
agencies are, and find out whothe families are, who kind of
have their stuff together, askthem questions where they get
that resource, how they put thethings in place, who are they
working with who's in theirnetwork, and that helps you
build your own network. Becausewith that, it's easier to find
(08:16):
the answers more quickly andmaybe more affordably. And that
works for all of us. So we as afirm do that. And I think it
works at the individual level aswell to make sure that we have
the right people around us tohelp us care for our loved one
because it's too much to ask ofone set of parents or even a
sibling to take on all that careand oversight. It takes a
village literally to help raiseour loved ones as best possible.
(08:39):
And that network is such a keypiece of that.
Dave Young (08:42):
Well, I totally agree with Mike I, that's
exactly what I was doing withPaco here in Colorado, was
reaching out to see what trustedvoices would be able to tell me.
And you know, the other thingthat is kind of related to this
but not connected directly to itis the some of the work I'm
doing in the treasury is to helptry to stand up a retirement
(09:03):
savings program for people herein Colorado that work in
moderate to low income jobs thatdon't have access to a
retirement savings plan at work.
Turns out in Colorado, that's amillion people that's 40% of our
private sector workforce. And wedid a deep study on this. And
what we discovered was thatpeople wanted to save for
(09:24):
retirement, they didn't know howto get started. And I think you
could extend that conversationto people who want to have a
financial plan for their lives.
They don't know how to getstarted. And so, you know,
having those trusted voices thatyou can lean on I think is
really important because ifsomebody has already broken the
trail for you on the pathway,and it looks like they're on a
(09:45):
good pathway to success, and youknow, certainly nothing wrong
with with following that but Ido think that people get a
little overwhelmed by all theterminology and in the financial
sector and often they aren'tsure if they're are getting sold
a bill of goods, they'rereluctant to jump in, they're
worried they're gonna losemoney. It just results in
(10:07):
paralysis. And so you're the oldChinese proverb but your journey
of 1000 miles begins with onestep. But you have to take that
first step. And using trustedvoices, I think is really a good
way to do that.
Chris Berstler (10:22):
Excellent. Thank you both very much. I know
personally, that was something Istruggled with all the financial
terms, I'm not a financialperson. So it freaked me out.
Dave Young (10:32):
Well, and you don't want to lose money. Right?
Exactly. Yeah, you work hard forit. Exactly. But in the process
of not wanting to lose money,you're actually falling behind.
Inaction creates that problemfor you as well. And it's, it's
a catch 22 that often peopledon't realize until there was
quite a ways down their life'sjourneys that they should have
(10:54):
started earlier on this work.
Mike Walther (10:57):
Also say to that the language can be a barrier.
Even within the statutescommunity, there's so many sub
segments where there's acronyms,where others might not know what
that specific acronym means. Andthey're, they're afraid to look
stupid, by asking the questionwhat that means. We do it all
the time, we're still learning,we've actually built a list of
(11:17):
acronyms, because it's so hardfor us to keep track of all of
them. And so I can't imagine forsomeone who's not in this
business, helping families dayto day, what it's like when you
come across that for the firsttime. And I think just to be
humble in the process, and bewilling to ask questions, and
continuing being a learner tolearn more about what's out
there, what's available, andwhat those things mean. And as
(11:38):
you both stated, try to take theacronyms out when you're talking
with other friends and otherpeople with the same challenges.
Talk about it in the terms thatyou understand, it'll be easier
for them to understand you teachthem as well.
Chris Berstler (11:49):
Yeah, I'm actually really happy you
brought up the acronyms thingthat was also something I
struggled with for quite awhile, not only just with
fiduciary stuff, but evenMedicaid, they have their own
language. So
Dave Young (12:02):
okay, you know, my wife is now a state
representative. So I think thetwo of us are actually pretty
good problem solvers. And wecould navigate the Medicaid
system is nearly impossible.
And, you know, I'm not blaminganybody, but it's just the
reality that these systems arereally challenging for people.
And the and, you know, you mixin, and what we've learned was
(12:25):
that, you know, for many years,we had the crisis of the day,
frankly, and you get sooverwhelmed with just trying to
figure out, I mentioned, mysister struggling to get
residential placement, and shewent through 20 residential
placements one year. I mean, Idon't like to move at all. And
(12:46):
she moved 20 times, sometimes,most of the time, not by choice.
And so we were so a meshed in,you know, this crisis, daily
crisis, that we didn't have timeto take a step back and figure
out well, what's the big planhere? And that's just
residential. She's got healthcare issues that pop up all the
(13:06):
time, and, and everything else.
So I, you know, I certainlyunderstand the challenges that
families, siblings, parents aregoing through. Because, you
know, people say, Well, whyaren't you on a plan? It's like,
Well, I'm just trying to, youknow, deal with the crisis of
the day, I don't have time for aplan. So it's tough.
Mike Walther (13:28):
Yeah, acronyms things to think about that the
planning piece of it. I don'tknow how many times we've had
families come into our office toask, does your loved one have
SSI or SSDI? And they say, Yes.
And then we ask, Well, whichone? And they look at us with
crossed eyes? What do you mean?
Which one? Like those are twodifferent major federal
(13:48):
programs? Do you haveSupplemental Security Income or
Social Security DisabilityIncome? Hmm. So I mean, those
are basic things that eachfamily's got to navigate with
and try to find the bestresource, the best fit for their
loved one. And the most basic ofthe acronyms can still be very
confusing the special needscommunity.
Dave Young (14:05):
Well, and then you throw in all the waivers if your
state goes down the waiverpathway just gets more complex
all the way?
Mike Walther (14:12):
Absolutely.
Chris Berstler (14:15):
What is some continued work to be aware of
once you actually do have afinancial plan in place?
Dave Young (14:22):
Well, I think I think you have to keep reviewing
it. You can't just assume thatthat's going to work forever.
And I know that's a littledisconcerting, because it does
take some work to put a plantogether. This is why it's
helpful to have somebody likeMike to to assist because
unfortunately, the the economiclandscape and the financial
(14:44):
landscape is constantly changingand what worked, you know, five
or 10 years ago may or may notwork as well as what other
programs that may be availablenow or, or thinking that may
have evolved over the last fiveor 10 years and so on. Um, as
much as it's time consuming todo that, you know, once you get
it locked in, don't just put itup on a shelf and forget about
(15:08):
it that needs to be reviewed.
And you know, that's true withall the aspects of somebody's
financial planning, you know, wedo that with wills as well, you
don't just write the will andthen, and then forget about it,
you've got to come back and takea look at it. We discovered that
with my parents, because theyhad had crafted a will that we
weren't even aware that weweren't involved with and then,
(15:30):
you know, we asked that theykind of open that back up again,
to look at it and realize thatsome of the language that was in
the world was going to createall kinds of problems for my
sister, once they passed away.
And so it prompted us to go andget an attorney to help us fix
(15:50):
that. But had we not kind ofpressed the issue a little bit,
that would have created somereal Medicaid havoc for my
sister.
Mike Walther (15:59):
Yeah, I would say that, you know, we're all
blessed to have families likeDave's in government now,
because I think back to when mybrother was younger, and my
parents were told to quote,brother institution and forget
about it. Because there were nofuture opportunities. There was
no housing, there were noemployment opportunities. So
it's pretty bleak. Obviouslyterrible advice, then and even
worse advice now to hear someonesay something like that. But the
(16:20):
reality is that, especially onthe housing front, even as
recent as 10, or 20 years ago,there weren't many options that
were attracted to families, andso many scrambled to build their
own, find their own putresources around their loved
one, as opposed to choosingamong multiple options in the
community, which still todaydoesn't really exist. But we're
getting better because we haveleaders like Dave, who are more
(16:41):
aware of that, who are pushingfor more opportunities, more
legislation for support, andmore opportunities. And with
those things, I think the futureis brighter for all families, in
terms of opportunities will beout there. But Dave, so right
that you've got to stay current,you got to be looking at things
with your eyes wide open andstaying connected to your
network, to find out whatopportunities are on the horizon
(17:01):
that might be attractive topursue or to support as a
family. And the other thing, Ithink it's critical is
communicating broadly, beyondjust your immediate family,
there might be others who havegreat intentions and great love
your sibling. And if they dosomething very generous in terms
of leaving something in theirestate, and they weren't aware
(17:22):
of the planning you've done, itcan make things more challenging
to get all the benefitsrestored, and make sure
everything's gonna work goingforward. Whereas if there's
broader communication, whetherit's a holiday or a get
together, or just some massletter that sent out explaining
what the family has done to allthose who might play a role, we
think that's really important.
We hate it. When the oppositeoccurs, when there's no
(17:42):
communication with everything'scut close to the vest. And then
something happens to it's easilyavoidable, with a couple of
conversations. And I always usethe example with our clients
that would you rather have thatuncle or aunt say notice serving
in some capacity in the futureafter you're dead? And you can't
change the people you've namedin your estate documents? Or in
(18:04):
your plans? Would you rathertalk to them now? Discuss what
and what the responsibilitiesare? Discuss what well, you'd
like them to play? Have them askquestions to get more
comfortable with it, and thentell you yes or no. And if they
say no, you can find someoneelse to put in that role. After
you're dead. It's really hard tochange things from the grave. So
having those communicationstoday is invaluable for the
family. And then As Dave said,things are changing. So you got
(18:27):
to update that network of peoplewill be responsible and your
loved ones life. And if you as asibling end up playing that
primary caregiver role or havethat responsibility, it falls to
you to make sure thatcommunication continues.
Chris Berstler (18:42):
What are some must haves for a secure
financial future for our sibs?
Mike Walther (18:48):
Well, I think the one that I mentioned earlier,
the base benefits, if you thinkabout it, the government wants
to do three things for someoneto provide us with food,
shelter, and some minimal levelof income if you can't provide
your own. So we want to makesure that we have the income
source, which for many is goingto be SSI, the Supplemental
Security Income, potentially ifthat loved one's working, and
(19:10):
then unable to work in thefuture, that income benefit may
shift to being SSDI DisabilityIncome benefits available to
everyone who is unable to work,but has work history. Both of
those benefits come with medicalinsurance. Yes, that would come
along typically with MedicaidSSDI typically comes along with
(19:30):
Medicare. And it's possible as aloved one goes down that
continuum a life that didn'thave with both Medicaid and
Medicare and potentially privateinsurance as well. We want to
make sure you have at least somebaseline of medical support for
whatever comes down the road.
And then one that people oftenforget and they overlook it as
being valuable is food. And withthe SNAP program that can be 200
dollars plus of food everymonth. If you do the math on
(19:54):
that it's $2,500 a year. Do thattime 50 years, all of a sudden,
it's a really valuable benefitfor that loved one. And people
of our generation tend to thinkof food stamps as something that
well, a couple people get that,no, I don't know what the
numbers are Dave may have theinformation, but I think it's
close to a quarter of thepopulation or more, is getting
some level of benefit to theSNAP program. So making sure we
(20:17):
get access to those base levelsupports, I think is really
important as a starting point.
And then adding on as Davementioned, the Medicaid waivers
depending on the state, you'rein the other local supports. And
then whatever is specific tothat individual's needs, and
care, building those thingsaround that, but I think is a
(20:37):
base, you start there, and thenyou make sure that you have
whatever assets are available tothat loved one structured in
such a way that doesn'tjeopardize those base benefits.
Dave Young (20:46):
You know, we both we have special needs trusts. And
we also have able achieving abetter life experience, those
kinds of accounts as well. Youknow, and it kind of dovetails
with the previous question, whenwe're talking about telling your
extended family, you know, theplan. And sometimes people
(21:07):
aren't aware that they can plugmoney into accounts like these,
and really assist your yourbrother or sister in great and
great ways and not jeopardizetheir Medicaid status as a
result of that. But you reallyhave to kind of understand what
each one is for. So you make thegood decision. And that's not an
(21:28):
easy process for anybody tofigure out. But I don't know,
Mike, if you want to talk alittle bit about both of those
types of savings accounts ortrust.
Mike Walther (21:41):
Thanks, Dave. And I agree, it's complicated for
families to understand whichbucket to put the money in,
you've got the money flowing infrom Social Security Agreement
that's got to go into theperson's own account initially.
And then where that gets parkedbecomes another question. So
you've got people accounts,which have become a wonderful
new planning resource forfamilies going the last five,
six years, where they can haveassets growing tax deferred in
(22:05):
account in the individuals name,but it's not a countable
resource. So when the governmentlooks and says, Okay, this
individual is applying forreceiving the SSI and Medicaid
benefits, how many assets theyhave, and how much money they're
making, that ABLE account canhave up to $100,000 in it, and
not jeopardize their access doesMedicaid and SSI benefits.
(22:26):
Conversely, the trust a specialneeds trust can have an infinite
amount of money in it, and alsonot jeopardize those benefits.
But the conversation I had withattorneys when ABLE accounts
first came out and some of thelocal attorneys said well, you
can manage things just asefficiently in a trust. I think
in many cases, they were sayingthat because they want to
protect their own benefits andselling trust work. I think that
(22:49):
worked hand in hand, there'scertain things that are much
better than ABLE account. Andother things that are better in
a trust account. Certainlylarger amounts go into the
trust. But a trust, if it hasany income at all, must file a
federal tax return, the ABLEaccount reporting in most states
is nothing more than documentingwhat was spent out of the ABLE
account, and that you didn'tover fund it. And none of the
(23:10):
state plans will allow you toput more than the annual
contribution limit in there,which this year is 16,000. With
inflation, I'm going to guess menorth of 17,000 next year. And
I'll continue to rise withinflation in the future. But the
trust amount can be infinite.
And whereas some attorneys wouldsay well, let's just use the
trust not bother be able tocount, we push back and say no,
the ABLE account gives you taxdeferred growth has more
(23:32):
flexible distributionopportunities for that loved one
to have more self determinationmore control of their own
assets. Whereas the trustaccount is driven by what the
trustee wants to distribute forit has more limited
opportunities for distribution,and requires a tax return every
year. So we want to reallyminimize expenses, we want to
use the ABLE account. And ifthere aren't going to be
(23:54):
significant resources inheritedfrom other sources, parents,
other loved ones in the family.
There's something called apooled trust, and every state
has at least one if not morepooled trust, where families
with more limited resources candonate whatever they do have to
that individuals account withinthe pooled trust, they then get
(24:14):
the professional management,professional resources of a
trustee, even with a much morelimited asset base. So that can
work really well in tandem or inlieu of a third party Special
Needs Trust Fund about otherpeople. And the ABLE account can
be funded by really anyone aslong as doesn't exceed the
annual contribution limits.
Dave Young (24:35):
Well, and that I think you had asked earlier, you
know, you know what resourcesare available for people with
lower incomes. And certainly thepooled trust is a way to do that
because you can put very smallamounts in there and then
benefit from a professionalmanager, helping you keep up
with the rate of inflation,which we were all struggling
(24:57):
with at the moment.
Chris Berstler (24:58):
Just listening to you guys. My head is
spinning.
Oh, we were supposed to do thatwe're supposed to clear things
up not making more complicated.
Sorry about that.
No, no. Really good opportunityfor a lot of people to hear
about these things like this.
This is the first time I'veheard about pool trusts. I've
got an ABLE account in a specialneeds trust in place for my
sister. And that took me foreverjust to get set up. Because like
(25:22):
I said, I'm not a numbers guy.
This is great. This is reallygood information. Thank you
both.
Dave Young (25:28):
So did you go to an attorney to help you do that
work? Or a planner? What did youdo?
Chris Berstler (25:34):
I went to an attorney, I originally was
looking at a financial planner.
But at the same time, I wasgoing through the process of
having my mother emotionallycommitted to everything, you
know, the whole sibling journey,getting the whole family on
board. Right? It, it was a twoyear process. And at the end of
the day, having an attorney inplace getting her will in place,
(25:58):
was more direct, and she wasn'twilling to commit to a financial
planner. So we kind of just dida mix. And it's still kind of in
the work in the background...
Dave Young (26:10):
Well, I'm glad you could kind of give us a little
light on that. Because I thinkthat's, that's really what
people are confronted with is,you know, work in a vacuum, and
you have a lot of familydynamics that occur often.
Mike Walther (26:27):
Chris, I'll share with you, I think your scenario
is much more common than I'dlike to admit. But my own
parents who have given me awonderful life and done amazing
things for my brother havereally fallen short, a number of
areas that I know would benefitmy brother. And as a sibling, I
think we all struggle with beinglittle bit younger than our
parents who had a different setof expectations and different
(26:50):
set of opportunities when ourloved ones were born than what
exists today, as we try topresent them with those new
ideas, new opportunities,oftentimes, they're set in their
ways. They don't want to hearthose things, or they hear them
differently. And they want tomake those changes because as we
discussed with Dave sistermoving way too many times in a
year, and change is hard. And sothat's why we see so many of our
(27:12):
loved ones living with theirparents well into their parents
80s, or when they pass away,which is almost never optimal,
with all the change that comeswith death and transition. And
so it's very difficult, even forme as a professional advisor to
get my own parents to do what Iknow is my brother's best
interest, which he doesn'talways articulate well to them.
(27:33):
Because it requires change. Andchange is hard. And how can
anyone know better than a parentof a loved one with special
needs, even if it's a siblingwho's been there side by side
with their brother or sister for50 plus years. So I think it's a
challenge in all the spaces,siblings trying to get our
parents to understand that atsome point, we're ready and
willing to take over that mantleof responsibility. Getting them
(27:56):
to let go of that, and gettingthem to make the changes
necessary for that to occur is achallenge we all face.
Dave Young (28:01):
Boy, that really happened with us, you know, I
mean, and I love my parents,they took that challenge on for
an entire lifelong lifetime, youknow, but my sister was faced
with liver failure, and needed aliver transplant. And so the
kind of common dialogue that wewere having in the family was
(28:22):
you live your life, we've gotthis, we, you know, this, this,
this is our child, we're goingto continue to take care of your
sister and and all that, butthen when they were finally
faced with a really significantchallenge, they went, Okay,
we're over our head, you know,we want you to become her legal
cold guardians, and, and takethis on and, and it was a real
(28:45):
shift in thinking for them toget to that point, then we could
actually work on their will, andbegin to talk about some of the
things that were in there thatwe're really going to cause some
problems and, and it challengesus to go look at our own
finances and our own will aswell. If we're you know, you
can't point the finger atsomebody else if you haven't
been doing that work yourself.
And so, yeah, it's it's a it's agood process, but it's often
(29:07):
quite, it's not a smoothprocess.
Chris Berstler (29:12):
So what resources might you have to
share with listeners to helpplan and keep track of their own
financial plans,
Mike Walther (29:19):
I've got one that it's kind of a shameless plug
for a for profit company. Butit's really true using a lot
with our clients. And I'm hopingto get my own family to use it
more. It's called vest life. Sovest is in the kind of apparel
you wear on your chest life. Andwhat they do is they take the
letter of intent concept, or acare guide, as we call it in our
(29:39):
firm that basically isresponsible for documenting all
the non legal things that areimportant in that person's life.
Whereas your trust documents canexplain what's going to happen
with the assets left for theirfuture benefit. There's new
medical records that you can goto the medical team to look up
and figure out what medicationsand therapies treatments have
been done. successfully, thereis the Where does all the other
(30:03):
stuff fit? And the answer is inthat care guide or letter of
intent where you document, youknow, desires, goals, family
traditions, quirks, behaviors,whatever it might be, that's
institutional, and a parents orsiblings mind that needs to be
there for future caregivers,whether it's the sibling playing
(30:25):
one of those roles, or siblingsupervising others playing those
roles. That needs to bedocumented what best life does
is it allows the family to do inwhatever format is best for
them. So if it's taking a video,and uploading that, if it's
writing out a detailed documentand uploading that, but the nice
part about it is the sharing andthe compartmentalization of the
(30:46):
different elements. So ifthere's medical things, you put
that in one bucket, and you canshare that with people who might
be playing a role as an advisor.
On the medical side, if thereare things about daily
caregiving, you put that in adifferent silo. And you can
share that with certain people.
You don't have to give everybodyall the information, you give
them what they need. And thoselittle segments can be updated
(31:06):
and shared electronically, on aGoogle doc type system where
only certain people have thesecure access to the
information, but they haveexactly what they need. And we
think that's a wonderful format.
So that while we believeeveryone in the family should
know what's going on, those whoprovide those caregiving roles
have exactly the informationthey need, they can share
feedback, they can uploadinformation to it as well. And
(31:28):
to the extent the individualthemselves wants to play a role
and able to play a role, theycan be involved with all those
different elements at their ownpace. So that format of
information sharing is amazingto us, because it allows for the
future caregivers to have theaccess they need without having
to go find some document thatcan be stuck in a drawer
(31:49):
somewhere that may never beuncovered.
Chris Berstler (31:52):
Are there any resources that you can point to
that are bipoc specific,
Mike Walther (31:57):
much of the best work unfortunately, is being
done in the nonprofit sector,there should be more of this
focus in the for profit sector,and I'm a member of the National
Association of PersonalFinancial Advisors. It's a group
of financial advisors who areall fiduciaries, you all must
do, it's our clients bestinterest. And there's a number
of subgroups within that, thatare really focused not just on
(32:18):
bipoc, and Dei, but I'm tryingto get good financial education
out to the masses, regardless ofwhat your background is, no
matter what your experiences,feeding it into bite sized
pieces about the jargon thatpeople can understand and
benefit from, regardless ofwhere they are in their
financial journey. And thenunderstanding that in the area
(32:39):
of special needs. It's not colorspecific race specific religion
specific. Anyone can end up withautism, or Down syndrome or
cerebral palsy, those things arenot specific to a gender or
anything else. So the work we'redoing in the planning side that
Dave's doing, you know, at thestate and federal level is
really looking at the entirepopulation, it's really not
(33:01):
specific to older white males,the privilege classes, etc. It's
making sure that the laws andopportunities are available for
everyone. And then the push is,I think, to get the education
out there so that people knowwhere the resources are, how to
benefit from the supports, andutilize what's available, so
that it doesn't get to worstcase scenario. I think there's
(33:22):
lots of things that are comingdown the road, I think, greater
opportunities for those in thebipoc community to get things
that are even more targeted themin the financial services
community. The numbers areterrible in terms of the numbers
of people coming in to thatpractice, that have those
backgrounds. So if you want towork with someone who's got a
similar background to looks likeyou understand your background
(33:43):
and history, it's harder to findthose professionals, that's
changing, but it's going to taketime, much like the other
resource they're taking time tocome to bear whether it's
housing in the special needscommunity, or whether it's other
medical and insurance supportscovering things. We're evolving
as a society around providingbetter specialty support that
includes supporting all those inthe BIPOC community.
Chris Berstler (34:06):
Finances can seem incredibly complicated,
like we had talked about beforewith all the acronyms and it can
be really overwhelming to manysibs. What if I don't have any
confidence in navigating andmaintaining accounts? What are
my other options?
Mike Walther (34:21):
For this is one that we counsel clients on
constantly. In our experience,it seems like in most families
where there's siblings with aloved one with special needs,
the siblings take one of twopolar positions, one of which is
I want nothing to do with mysibling once I get to college
and graduate and move to theother coast and get away from
(34:42):
this because I've been swimmingin it my entire life and I'm
tired. The other half is theokay mom and dad, what can I do
to help? And so in that case,you've got the willing
participant and you want to workwith them and keep them
involved. We think that siblingrelationship is is absolutely
essential to be maintained. Andwhen two parents who've been
(35:05):
kind of sharing duties hand offall the work to one sibling,
that's a load. And maybe thatsibling doesn't have the
financial background doesn'thave the healthcare background
doesn't have all the things theywould necessarily need to be
Superman to care for theirsibling and do all those things
in the future, there is a rolethat can be put in place on the
(35:25):
estate planning side withrespect to the trust document
called a trust protector. Welove having clients consider
that in their planning. In atrust, you have the trustee who
has the sole responsibility formaking all the distributions
decisions, filing the taxreturns, making sure the
investments, the assets that arein that account are managed
appropriately. That's a lot toput on someone who maybe doesn't
(35:47):
have that kind of a background,but wants to help. Whereas if
you have them be a trustprotector, they can have the
role of simply hiring and firingthe trustee who's responsible
for doing those things, or theoutside investment advisor, if
they bifurcate, those roles,have someone doing the
administrative part and someonein an investment part. If you
did that fellow, it'd be thetrust protector, their only job
(36:10):
is to make sure that thosepeople are doing their jobs. So
become a supervisor, if you willhave the estate plan. So
therefore, they're got fewerhours to put in, much less day
to day responsibility. But theycan be that key communication
link between the sibling who'sthe beneficiary of those assets,
and the trustee and theinvestment advisors so that
everybody knows what's needed.
And that sibling played the roleof trust protector is an
(36:33):
incredibly valuable position,but doesn't have the day to day
responsibility and stress toplay in those other roles. And
they can also then be thatcommunication link to all the
agencies providing care andsupport on the outside that are
outside of the trustresponsibilities. So that way,
they can keep the sibling lovingrelationship and not be the one
telling their sibling, oh, no,you can't have that. No, we're
(36:57):
not doing that. And all of asudden, the knows they're
continuing get thrown into therelationship break up that great
bond they had before. And that'sso unfortunate when you have a
loved one who wants to play therole. And it becomes
contentious. So if we can keepthat sibling loving bond in
place, and have theresponsibility given to some
others with a supervisory role,that seems to us to be the best
(37:17):
case scenario, in most cases.
Dave Young (37:21):
In my in my family's case, it was just my sister and
me. And so, you know, as myparents got to that point in
life, where they just feltoverwhelmed that the whole
burden fell to me. But I marriedup. So my wife agreed to be co
Guardian with me and her family,which is a large family, you
(37:42):
know, all want to play roles inthis as well. So not sure what
that's going to look like withnieces and nephews who are in
the Chicago area. But you knowthat you've given me a little
roadmap there, Mike, that'sgood. I like that.
Chris Berstler (37:59):
What parting words of encouragement might you
have for any sibs currentlyplanning their financial
futures?
Mike Walther (38:07):
Well, for one thing back in days, it's people
like him getting into electedoffice will make the most
change. It's so frustrating forme as an advisor, who's not a
very good advocate at thepolitical level with our clients
to see so many legislators notget it, and then see our little
micro groups go to the state andfederal level with their, their
(38:27):
campaigns try to get attention.
Whereas other groups are muchbetter at getting the attention
of legislators we go in smalllittle pockets, it's less
effective. But once we getlegislators in place who have
lived experience, they startpassing laws start having those
discussions that are morefavorable to our community, that
understand what a huge portionof the population we actually
(38:48):
are, even though our voice isn'twell heard, we're out there, we
have votes, and we care. Butwe're just not well organized,
whereas other groups are. And sohaving legislators who are
living it, like Davis, who nowhave the ability from their role
and perspective to help makechange. That's the greatest
possible feature we have becauseit's so hard individual level,
(39:09):
to say, I need this, I needthat. And it's not there. It's
making those things moreavailable. And I guess my one
last parting thought would bethat this is a journey for every
family. And that is I mentionedback at the outset of this
podcast. Think of yourself as asibling with the GPS for your
loved one. If you're not toolong trip, you're gonna take
(39:32):
breaks. So don't feel likeyou're constantly pressured to
do better tomorrow and to makeanother change. To push your
sibling forward. It's okay. Takea break. Take some time away.
You went on a trip anyway. alsocelebrate the milestones stop
and see the world's largest ballof twine. You're driving across
the country. It's okay. You cancelebrate those little
milestones along the way. Stopand have the cheeseburger that's
(39:52):
off your diet plan. That's okay,too. It's fun. You can look for
the joy and laughter in life.
It's okay. Pay to do thosethings. It doesn't have to be
stressful all the time, find thehappy moments and celebrate
those with your sibling. Andthen love your sibling for who
they are. Right? All of us havesiblings, they've got their
quirks. Heck, we have our ownquirks. It's cool to celebrate
(40:15):
those things and love them forwho they are. And don't wait to
love them until they haveachieved X, Y, and Z. Love them
for where they are today. Helpthem get where they want to be.
And remember, it's where theywant to be not where you want
them to be. That's mostimportant. If you keep those
things in mind, I think you'llhave a great relationship with
your sibling for a long time.
And everyone's been better off
Dave Young (40:33):
great words of wisdom, I really appreciate
that, you know, if I would tendto default a little bit of the
politics into the legislation,on closing remarks, just because
that's how I spend a lot of mytime. So I think that's a narrow
response, maybe are closingremarks, Crystal, what you're
asking for, for maybe a moreglobal response. But I do think
(40:58):
that there are some reallegislative changes that we need
to make that are going to makelives easier if we make them.
And I do understand that it'shard to build that political
momentum. You have groups thatare like, like this network that
are trying to bring advocatestogether. And sometimes it gets
a little, a little tough, youknow, you don't feel like you're
(41:20):
being heard. Let me just tellyou, from my experience, as a
legislator, that the voices fromthe community are the ones that
are most valued. And let me justtell you a quick story. I had a
bill, we were trying to run toallow people who use wheelchairs
to get, you know, the right kindof wheelchair, not some standard
(41:43):
wheelchair. And, you know, I hadthis bill and I was in front of
committee and I looked up at allthe committee members and they
were on their phones, they werelooking at their watches, they
were yawning, on and on and on.
And we had an advocate for thecommunity come in and provide
her testimony. And literallyafter she spoke, I looked up and
(42:04):
and people were sobbing. Theywere crying. And when
legislators I've never seenthis, the tears were spurting
out. It was burning out, it wasso emotional. And this is the
story that we have to tell thatis so powerful that people will
listen to. And really this iswhat legislators want to hear.
(42:27):
They want to hear what is reallygoing to make a difference in
people's lives. I can't tell youevery legislators that way. But
the ones that by far and awaythat I serve with even when you
think there's all kinds ofpolitical disruption and and
disarray. At the end of the day,they're there because they want
to do something right for thecommunity. And I think they
(42:48):
recognize when when somebody hasreally given them the straight
scoop of what has to happen. Sodon't fall back. Keep pushing
forward. Keep telling yourpersonal story. It'll pay off.
Chris Berstler (43:02):
Excellent points. Excellent advice. Thank
you so much. I really appreciateyour time. Thank you so much for
joining me today. This has beenan enlightening conversation. So
thank you very much.
Mike Walther (43:13):
Thanks for having us.
Dave Young (43:14):
You bet.
Chris Berstler (43:16):
Find resources, tools and information about the
sibling experience on siblingleadership dot board. The
sibling Leadership Network is anonprofit and we rely on support
from our audience. Find thedonation button on our homepage
and contribute to the evergrowing sibling movement.
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