June 13, 2022 • 44 mins
This month we speak with three sibling employment experts to discuss sib employment and how we can best support and advocate with our siblings with disabilities. Our guests are:
- Ryan Rotundo, Sibling, Manager of Employment Programs at the National Down Syndrome Society (NDSS) (rrotundo@ndss.org)
- Byran Dai , Sibling, CEO and Co-founder of Daivergent (bdai@daivergent.com)
- Mike Carmody, Sibling, Executive Leader, Opportunity Knocks, (mike@opportunityknocksnow.org)
Access the transcript of this episode here.
Resources mentioned in this episode:
- CEO Commission for Disability Employment
- SLN COVID-19 Resource Center
- Microsoft Career Connector
- Inclusively
- List of State Agencies
- List of State Vocational Rehabs
- Rangam
- Special Olympics
- Buddy Walks
- Tim's Place
- North Carolina Council in Developmental Disabilities
- WIPA (Work Incentives Planning and Assistance)
- CWIX (Community Work Incentive Coordinators)
- Section 14C
Highlights:
- “Disability, non-disability; finding employment is hard." -Byran Dai
- “There are abilities beyond what they may see for that family member with a disability and sometimes siblings get a front row seat to that” -Ryan Rotundo
- “We have that unique position of being a built-in ally.” -Byran Dai
- “When I try to create a better life for him, I'm creating a better life for myself too.” -Mike Carmody
- “Strong talent is going to come from this community.” -Byran Dai
In this episode:
- 00:51 - Introductions
- 04:18 - Currently, just under 18% of individuals with disabilities in the US are employed. Why do you think that number is so low?
- 08:31 - What challenges or roadblocks do our siblings with disabilities face when trying to be gainfully employed?
- 12:30 - Are racial discrimination and gender inequity concerns for our siblings as well?
- 14:03 - What role can siblings play in supporting their brother or sister with disabilities in employment?
- 21:58 - How can we, as siblings, best advocate with our siblings with disabilities for inclusive and equitable employment opportunities?
- 26:05 - How has the COVID-19 pandemic changed employment for individuals with disabilities and their families?
- 31:09 - How has being a sibling of an individual with disabi
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Chris Berstler (00:02):
Welcome to the Sibling Leadership Network
podcast. The Sibling LeadershipNetwork is a national nonprofit
whose mission is to providesiblings of individuals with
disabilities the informationsupport and tools to advocate
with their brothers and sistersand to promote the issue is
important to us and our entirefamilies.
(00:23):
Hello, and thank you for joiningus for another episode of the
SLN Podcast. Today we will betalking about sibs and
employment. I'm joined today byRyan Rotundo, sibling and
manager of employment programsat the National Down Syndrome
Society. Byran Dai, sibling andCEO and co founder of Divergent
and by Mike Carmody, sibling andexecutive leader of Opportunity
(00:47):
Knocks. Thank you all forjoining us today.
Please start off by telling usabout yourself, your siblings
and your current work.
Byran Dai (00:56):
Hi, everyone, my name is Byran. I'm the co founder and
CEO of Divergent. And I've run acompany that helps to build a
job readiness platform. And thisplatform does two things really
well, which is one, it helpsyoung adults and adolescents
with disabilities gain theskills that they need to become
independent and self sufficient.
And number two, is that we helpemployers become familiar about
(01:19):
disability and neurodivergenttalent, and actually help them
to hire that talent into theirorganizations. And so divergent
really is about serving as atechnology bridge. And really,
the genesis for this company isthat I serve as, as I said, I
have a brother Brandon, he's a22 year old, autistic self
advocate. For him, his goalshave always been very clear, get
(01:41):
a job, live his own life. Ourmom passed away, back in 2014.
And it really brought to life,you know, how challenging it can
be for us as siblings to be ableto work together to help make
the transition into adultservices, when you're having to
step up to the plate. So for usand you know, for me in
particular, that's really whatled me here today are two
(02:05):
divergent.
Ryan Rotundo (02:08):
So my name is Ryan Rotundo. And I am first and
foremost a sibling to an amazingyoung woman named Nicole who has
Down syndrome. And we finallyrefer to that it's just this
awesome extra 20/21 chromosome.
And I've, I've really, you know,being the younger sibling, I
think has sort of paved mycareer path in some ways and
(02:28):
just life choices. At an earlyage I got, you know, became
involved in Special Olympics andwhat we called buddy walks,
which are some local fundraiseropportunities for the Down
Syndrome Community, and laterrealized my calling to be a
special education teacher, I hadthe the unique privilege of also
being roommates as collegeroommates to some guys with Down
(02:49):
syndrome. In the post secondaryeducation program at the College
I attended, which wasincredible. I also had a chance
to work as the general managerfor a very dear friend of ours
named Tim Harris, who has DownSyndrome and owned his own
restaurant called Tim's place inAlbuquerque, New Mexico serving
breakfast, lunch and hugs. Andso all of those experiences sort
(03:09):
of culminated and I currentlyserve in a couple of different
roles. One is a public servantin the state of North Carolina,
a vice chair to North CarolinaCouncil on Developmental
Disabilities, and in in my dayto day role with the National
Down Syndrome Society as themanager of employment
programming. And in that role,part of our goal is to really
(03:29):
highlight success stories fromthe Down Syndrome Community,
from people who have reallyexcelled in employment, but also
in self employment and startingstarting and growing their own
businesses. We also look topartner with private sector
organizations, and nonprofitsand other organizations to
really create inroads foremployment and increase
inclusive opportunities withinthose organizations for people
(03:50):
with, with of course, Downsyndrome, but but disability
more broadly, as well. So thoseare some of the things I get to
work on, and happy to be here.
Thanks for having me.
Mike Carmody (04:00):
My name is Mike Carmody. I have a sibling who is
30... He just turned 35 withDown syndrome. And I work at an
organization called OpportunityKnocks, which we provide after
school and day programs forindividuals with developmental
disabilities.
Chris Berstler (04:18):
So currently, just under 18% of individuals
with disabilities in the US areemployed, why do you think that
number is so low?
Byran Dai (04:28):
I'm happy to offer offer a couple thoughts. I think
the you can look at it fromreally two, two perspectives. I
think the first is from theemployer side. What you're
seeing is that although it'schanging, you know, there is
still that continuing bias.
There's still the continuingconcerns that you may hear
companies articulate when itcomes to trying to bring in
(04:52):
extremely strong talent intotheir organizations. And it's,
it's frankly, it's out dated,but it persists. I think what
you're also finding is thatthere are really start to become
mismatches around vocationalpathways, where we aren't seeing
that the vocational trainingshave kept pace with where the
(05:13):
job growth is happening. And sowe're seeing that there are more
dependencies coming up ondigital skills, there aren't as
many often meaningful workexperiences, they're able to be
offered towards individuals whoare in high school or
university, who are movingtowards graduation, who have
disabilities. And so those canreally compound and B, a few of
(05:34):
the factors that we've seen inour line of work, or why you're
seeing sort of a persistentlyhigh unemployment rate.
Ryan Rotundo (05:48):
Yeah, I think I think that's spot on Byran, and
I'll ask, I'll add this to Iguess, a perspective, from maybe
the family, the family memberside, and I would say that's
sort of uncertainty, right. Soyou spoke about the job skill
training and the readinesscoming out of it, I would assume
coming out of high school, thattransition sort of into the
(06:08):
world of employment, or forfolks who are already
experiencing, you know, the thereal world and young adult life
and trying to access employment,but maybe not having the right,
or the most appropriate skillsets, I think training is
certainly a factor, but thenalso, you know, access to
information. And for families, Ithink there's oftentimes this
uncertainty about the cliff, wecall it the cliff, right? What
(06:30):
happens after, you know, thefederal laws and protections of
IDE EA, are no longer coveringor supporting our individuals
and loved ones with withdisabilities as they transition
out into the community intoworkplaces? So, you know, a part
of that is also, you know,thinking through, how do we
access employment and stillmaintain other key factors that
(06:53):
are supporting the loved onewith a disability, such as
benefits, you know, as many ofthe individuals that have a
disability that might also be apart of the job seeker pool is
our folks who are receiving, youknow, better benefits and may
not quite understand how earningcould impact those benefits. So,
there's a lot of misconception,there are a lot of myths out
(07:14):
there about how those two thingswork together, and how they can
be impacted by one another. So Ithink that a big issue for us
looking at employment for peoplewith disabilities moving forward
is how do we get informationinto the hands of the
individuals that have familymembers, and that there are, you
know, there are institutionsaround the country, there are
individuals who can helpnavigate through benefits
(07:37):
counseling, with workincentives. And, and then, of
course, we have a role calledSee, wicks are Community Work
Incentive Coordinators, who canhelp sort of navigate and look
at specific instances orindividuals situations and help
them navigate through some ofthat. But those are, I think, in
(07:59):
short supply, given the the needfor counseling, to help people
really access employment withoutthat uncertainty or without that
fear of losing out on benefits.
Mike Carmody (08:10):
I think in my experience, and my brother, I
think that people are sometimesput off and not open to the idea
of people with developmentaldifferences and and instead,
they're not utilized in aneffective manner, I think.
Chris Berstler (08:31):
Nice, thank you.
What challenges or roadblocks doare siblings with disabilities
face when trying to be gainfullyemployed?
Ryan Rotundo (08:40):
So I think just real broadly, a plan, I think
that one of the greatestroadblocks is, is having a plan
and when I say that, I kind ofyou know, I'm speaking of
several different factors oflife, you know, a plan for
accessing the community. Sotransportation can be a
tremendous hurdle for peoplewith disabilities seeking
gainful employment. And it also,you know, you look at another
(09:04):
piece and that is I mentionedbefore financial planning and
being able to understand sortof, again, the impacts of
earning, but also that that howdo we budget how do we make
everything that that comes intoour, you know, our bank account
or if if an individual with adisability even has a bank
account, right, and statisticswould show that individuals with
disabilities are among the, youknow, the one of the greatest
(09:27):
populations that is unbanked,right, so being able to look at
ways to build supports forpeople to not only earn, but to
save, and all that requires aplan right, and then also
thinking through some of the theaging population or the aging
caregivers, the parents that areperhaps kind of guiding the way
(09:48):
here and wanting to leave behindsome some pillars of support for
the loved one with a disabilitythings like you know, coming up
with special needs trust, right.
So having a special needs trustand play Ace, so that all of
these, you know, financialpieces are falling into place
the way that they should be tosupport that individual with a
disability. I think all of thatcomes into into play when we
talk about just creating asustainable, long term plan for
(10:11):
our loved one with a disability.
Byran Dai (10:17):
I think that's it.
That's, as Ryan put it, that'shuge. It's just that these are
the kinds of topics and thekinds of areas that the non
disability community, those whoare not directly in it, don't
give that thought about. I thinkwhat we're seeing, in addition,
in parallel is that much of thesocial structure much of the
(10:37):
much of the kind of norms andexpectations around what does it
mean to be employees are reallybuilt around that non disability
population that neurotypicalpopulation, you know, that can
be really anything from what isthe appropriate social
etiquette, or the unspoken normsthat never get taught in any
kind of a setting to thispopulation, or about the way in
(10:58):
which one even tries to beconsidered for employment. Now,
when it comes to, perhaps howsomeone interviews, these are,
these are really individualexamples that are not all
encompassing, but I think ofthem as sort of data points have
a kind of broader, a broaderstructural challenge that we
keep seeing, which is that thereare inadvertent roadblocks, like
(11:21):
it created for for ourselves.
And it's, it's actually reallyincumbent on allies and self
advocates together to actuallybe calling this out. And I think
it's, it's some ways to go, butit's it is an active effort
that, you know, is alreadystarting to bear fruit.
Mike Carmody (11:43):
I think in my experience in my brother, and I
think with the people I'veworked with, I think I'm, I
think just getting theopportunity, and people being
accepting and providing thespace for them. To have that
gainful employment, I think thatthere's been a lot of instances
where people have been interns.
And I think that people, I don'tthink people really see what the
(12:10):
person with a disability istotally capable of, and the
skill sets that they do have.
And taking the time to develop,or taking the time to learn
those skills, I think is a bigthing that I've seen that we
could do better, as is humanrace,
Chris Berstler (12:30):
Are racial discrimination and gender
inequity concerns for oursiblings as well?
Byran Dai (12:36):
I can share it from the perspective of what we see,
especially across autism acrossawesome, the different
neurodivergent conditioncategories, you'll absolutely
see unbelievable imbalances whenit comes to areas like
diagnoses, access to clinicalmedical care, which directly
affects access to services, thatis a direct correlation to
(13:02):
communities with higher racialdiversity, you're seeing that
that is a minute, those go handin hand. And that continues to
persist even to this day. Andwhat you're also seeing within
this is that even when somebodygets access to a clinician than
the autism community, you know,there's a significant under
diagnosis among females comparedto males. So I think when it
(13:26):
comes to our siblings, perhapsin my case, I have a brother, we
are in a community in whichwe've had the good fortune to be
closer to those kinds of thosekinds of medical services I
growing up. But the idea, that'sthe norm, you know, that's
really more the exception. Andso I think we really, you know,
(13:48):
owe to ourselves to be mindfulof that. So absolutely, I'd say
that these are big concerns.
Ryan Rotundo (13:55):
Great answer, Byron. I don't know that I add
much to that, actually.
Chris Berstler (14:03):
what role can siblings play in supporting
their brothers and sisters withdisabilities in employment?
Ryan Rotundo (14:11):
I've been waiting for this one. So I'll start us
off if that's all right. So forall, all the parents listening,
maybe put your ear muffs on fora minute. No, I think I think
you know, siblings, siblings areamazing. I've had the the honor
of working with hundreds, if not1000s of siblings over the
(14:31):
years, in some of my work withthe National Down Syndrome
Congress, running their brothersand sisters workshop as a young
man and just getting to kind ofpour into these kids and help
them sort of guide them throughthis curriculum of advocacy and
education and empowerment. And,you know, I think that siblings
are, we know they're the longestlasting relationship that a
(14:53):
sibling with Down syndrome oranother disability is going to
have, right so there's justthere's power in those numbers.
And to build that relationshipand to have these, you know,
these lives in parallel, and,you know, I'll just say this
too, that not every sibling, youknow, decides to take a path
like Mike or Byron or myselfwhere they're, you know, kind of
giving back in some ways to thatspecific need in the community
(15:16):
or for their loved one with adisability. And that's totally
okay. Right. But I think thatthere's also a good portion of
sibs, who who take on this lifeof service or this, you know, at
least in some ways, this, thisperipheral, you know, protection
of their sibling with adisability. And so I think that
one of our first roles that weexperience is just being able to
(15:38):
encourage them as any siblingwould do for their sibling,
right, not just disability side,right, you're just encouraging
you're building each other upand kind of helping each other
along. And then the other pieceis, and this is where I say, for
parents, maybe taking theearphones off, serving his 10
years as a nurse put theearphones on, rather, serving in
10 years as 10, as a specialeducation teacher of 10 years in
(16:00):
the State of North Carolina, Ihad the opportunity to meet and
have IEP meetings and thesetransition planning meetings
with many, many families and,and professionals in the field.
And this word just always cameup. And it's it's a part of
setting goals, I understandthis, but the word realistic,
right and setting a realisticgoal for yourself. And it would
(16:21):
just pay me sometimes to hearhow that word was being used in
some ways to put a cap on theabilities or the goals or the
aspirations of the individualwith a disability. And I get
that it comes from a lovingplace, or of a place of saying,
well, let's make sure we takethis in stride and piece by
piece and that sort of thing.
But I think if we're notcareful, oftentimes, I ran into
(16:42):
situations where we had these,you've heard of helicopter
parents, where we ran into a lotof lawnmower parents we call
them, where they're mowing downeverything in the path of their
loved one with a disability,there's their son, daughter with
a disability so that they neverhad to experience those
challenges. Right. And, and partof that is also saying, well,
that's not really a realisticgoal. Right? And, and we heard
(17:03):
this, I got to share the story alot working with my buddy, Tim,
his parents. And at first theysaid, Hey, Tim, what do you want
to do when you grow up? Timsaid, I want to own a
restaurant. And at first theysaid, Well, Tim, that's not
realistic, right? There's thatword realistic, and, and then
eventually, they started to takehim seriously. And they tried to
figure out a plan. And he'strying to put pieces in place to
(17:24):
make it happen for him. And hedid. And as far as we know, he's
the first guy with Down syndromein the world to own his own
restaurant. So it's just partof, you know, helping your
sibling with a disability again,just by encouraging them, but
also maybe reminding the otherfolks in the room, that there
are abilities beyond maybe whatthey see for that family member
that loved one with with adisability, and sometimes
(17:48):
siblings, I think, get a frontrow seat to that.
Mike Carmody (17:52):
I think to add to that, I think one of the things
that I'd like to stress with mybrother and my parents, which
has been really an area ofopportunity is the idea of
protecting. I think that a lotof times people with
disabilities need to beprotected. And I think what the
one of the things that I'verealized is that we need to set
(18:14):
it up to where if we're nothere, he can have some sort of
tool to continue to moveforward. And I think this idea
of protecting and like paddling,I'm definitely someone who was
my brother, especially like, I'mgoing to push him like you were
talking about Ryan, I'm going topush him and challenge him.
Because I know he can do more.
And sometimes people give methat look like Wait, are you
(18:38):
serious? And I'm like, No, thisis this is how we're going to do
it. And I think accountabilityand like not protecting are very
important.
Ryan Rotundo (18:49):
That's funny one, it's one thing if someone tries
to push your sibling, you knowto achieve or maybe out of their
comfort zone. It's a wholenother thing when you get to do
it. Right. Like I don't alwayslike watching other people try
to push my sister but but when Iget to do it, it seems to be
more motivating or something Idon't know, to get that sibling
past right. There's a huge pieceto this whole barriers and
(19:13):
roadblocks conversation in thatis policy. Right, the
legislation that undergirds thewhole system and and some of
these pieces of legislation thathave been around and are really
antiquated and have no place inthe 21st century, particularly
when we're speaking aboutdisability employment, one of
which is I'm sure, folks on thiscall and hopefully some folks
(19:35):
listening are familiar withsection 14 C of the Fair Labor
Standards Act often referred toas the sub minimum wage or the
commensurate wage law allowingorganizations to pay individuals
with disabilities a wage that isless than the minimum wage,
simply based on the fact thatthey have a disability and it's
based on an algorithm that thatsaid to determine productivity
(19:57):
level and all those things buthistory As an aside, the the
overall focus of I think thegreater disability community at
this point in time is thatthere's absolutely no place for
Section 14 C in any state or anyarea across the United States.
So, you know, we have at themoment 12 states that have
(20:17):
passed legislation to eliminatesection 14 C, two states are
sort of working toward it NorthCarolina, my home state being
one that has come to anagreement with the Department of
Health and Human Services tophase out these practices in
segregated work settings, thestate of Texas has also taken
(20:38):
action to sort of eliminate someof these practices. And there's
sort of two parts to thisconversation. And I want to be
really clear here, because Iknow that it can, it can be a
point of contention in the inthe conversation around section
14 C, but sheltered workshopsand segregated work settings are
oftentimes the setting throughwhich these section 14 C
(21:01):
certificates, which I shouldmention are also issued by the
Department of Labor, toorganizations that are hiring
people with disabilities to dothe work. These are often
utilized within segregated worksettings. And we understand that
for some families, that feelslike the best option. So you
know, the case being made. And alot of the work that I do with
(21:23):
the National Down SyndromeSociety is not that that is not
a viable option. For some, werealize that some families do
rely on on those types of worksettings to support their loved
one with a disability. What weare saying is that if they're
going to be working there, theyshould be making a minimum wage,
right? That is the, that is thepoint I think we can all agree
(21:44):
on. So just want to bring thatup. Because it's, it's easy to
see how making, you know, aslittle as 22 cents an hour can
significantly impede a person'sability to become financially
stable. So that is a tremendousroadblock, when we're talking
about employment for people withdisabilities.
Chris Berstler (22:00):
How can we as siblings best advocate with our
siblings with disabilities, forinclusive and equitable
employment opportunities?
Byran Dai (22:09):
For all of us, here, we have that unique position of
really being that built an ally,our voices that carry more
weights, as family members,they're second only to self
advocates themselves, that weare the ones that jump into
employee resource groups, andcompanies, you know, if you're
someone who on this podcastwho's listening, who's at a
fortune 500, or corporateentity, that's a responsibility
(22:33):
that you can find yourselftaking on alongside self
advocates in that organization.
I think, you know, there areplatforms just like what's going
on here with SLN, you know, it'sabout also normalizing the
conversation more probably, evenoutside your company, around
disability not as charity, butas a clear business value. I
think that's really about makingthat narrative of, you know,
(22:54):
there can be an impact. Butyou're also a company that needs
strong talent, and strong talentis going to come from this
community. And it's going toreally add significant value to
your organization. And so whenyou're seeing that kind of that
kind of ally ship, you know, inwhich, like, with Ryan, like
with Mike, where you areparticipating with service
(23:16):
providers, you're doing a resumeworkshop with your, your
sibling, your brother, yoursister, you know, just being an
active, contributing member, inpushing that idea of inclusive
and equitable employment andsort of normalize that
conversation. That's whereyou're gonna get, I think, a lot
of value as a sin to make animpact. Or you can.
Ryan Rotundo (23:38):
Yeah, and I think that's, I think that's spot on.
And I also, you know, towhatever degree appropriate, I
know that, you know, everyonehas their strengths and areas
of, you know, need foradditional support and, and that
sort of thing. And I know that,you know, I think I guess it's
the greatest fear that peoplehave is the fear of public
speaking. But I would say thatif you can encourage your
(24:00):
sibling to use their, theirpersonal testimony, there's, I
feel like there are a few thingsthat are as powerful as that
personal testimony and maybeit's a testimony of overcoming
and actually accessingemployment or having success in
small business, you know,ownership or, or maybe it's a
story of struggle and how doorswere closed and how, you know,
(24:21):
inequities we're seeing throughthis process of trying to access
the world of employment. And,you know, I think either way,
again, just that personaltestimony can be incredibly
powerful. I was completely blownaway and this is coming from a
guy again, younger sibling ofsomeone with Down syndrome,
spent most of my life sort of inthis field are dedicated to this
(24:42):
type of work. And I was blownaway when I got to the National
Down Syndrome Society and metseveral self advocates who are
on staff with us who have aresume that I felt like puts me
to shame right, these are, theseare young men, young women with
Down Syndrome who are lobbyingCongress who are staying Getting
up and giving testimony in frontof the lawmakers of the United
(25:03):
States and saying this issomething that needs to change
and their testimony is powerful.
So I think lifting up thosevoices and just encouraging them
to share their stories can bevery valuable as well.
Mike Carmody (25:13):
I think you guys both have great answers. One of
the things that I'm exploringthis idea, and I'm sure other
people have done this, too. Butthis idea of normalizing
everyone, so we're all at thesame level. And I think one of
the things that I've seen isthat we do this intro
disabilities, training with ournew staff, and all the different
(25:35):
characteristics of all thedifferent disabilities. And I
think it's, for me, I always geta good laugh, because when I
hear the characteristics, andsome of the things that come up
all the time, I always raise myhand too, because, like
impulsive, like, Yes, that's me.
And I think that idea of justkind of trying to relate to
people, and persons withdisabilities, and how we're all
(25:58):
pretty similar. Once you reallystop and like, kind of just take
a look at the bigger picture.
Chris Berstler (26:08):
How has the COVID-19 pandemic changed
employment for individuals withdisabilities and their families?
Ryan Rotundo (26:14):
I can speak to kind of two angles of this one,
personally, my sister having apart time job working at a
hotel, in our, in our communityand loving it, and it's an
inclusive employment setting,she's, you know, she's got her
routine of arriving to work ontime and having a little bit of
time before to kind of socializewith their co workers. And then
(26:37):
she does her shift, and then shehas some time afterward. This
was also the place ofemployment, where she met her
boyfriend of three years. Sojust a lot of, you know, great
connection, and it's everything,you know, employment is, I'll
say, also another key, it's akey factor of quality of life,
but it leads to other keyfactors of quality of life,
(26:57):
right, so that relationshipbuilding that that community
and, and those relationships,so, but anyway, during COVID-19,
she was the her hours werereduced. And in fact, she was
told that she wouldn't be ableto come in because the the hotel
actually shut down for a numberof months. So so it wasn't just
a paycheck, right, it was thesepersonal experiences and these
relationships and, and so wefound that she, you know, kind
(27:21):
of became more withdrawn, andshe was having a hard time not
getting to see and be a part ofthe social circles that had
formed within her her place ofemployment. So not so different
than, you know, some of thethings we might have experienced
right during a lockdownsituation where we didn't get to
interact with folks in ourcommunity as much. So I would
(27:42):
say that that was one of themost sort of personal
experiences that our family had,and you know, talking with her
on the phone and encouraging herand kind of helping her try to
see the light at the end of thetunnel, even when it felt like
there might not have been a veryclose light during the pandemic
and some of the shutdown times.
But But, but that was definitelysomething that affected her. And
then I'll say this, too, youknow, with my work at the North
(28:03):
Carolina Council onDevelopmental Disabilities,
we're starting to see now morethan ever the lasting effects of
a direct support professionalcrisis that we are in as a
country, the DSP crisis, andthat is the shortage of labor
specific to those that supportindividuals with disabilities in
to access the community. And tothe point that we have council
(28:28):
members who are very activeadvocates in our state who are a
part of, you know, makingdecisions and how programs are
formed and how initiatives arecarried out within the state of
North Carolina, who, again, selfadvocates, who cannot get to our
meetings, because they don'thave the staff, they don't have
the transportation to help themget out of bed in the morning
(28:49):
and get themselves clothed andchanged and all those things.
And that is a again, that is acrisis. And that is a direct
impact of, of COVID-19. So, sothat has definitely, you know,
strained our system and put alot of people in some pretty
difficult situations.
Chris Berstler (29:07):
Right, I was I was gonna absolutely highlight
that DSP point. You'reabsolutely right, that you're
seeing. There's so muchcompetition for DSP talent. And
you're seeing that I'm hopingwhat I'm hoping is that you're
seeing states and you're seeingorganizations sort of start to
wake up to that reality. Youknow, these are this is a
fingers crossed moment that itcontinues. Something that has
(29:30):
kind of followed from that iswith the additional funding that
had come in from the the federalinfrastructure bill is the
beginning of States looking intoexpanding assistive technologies
for the use by job coaches, byjob developers, by community
agencies and organizations, Ithink, in another sort of
(29:53):
parallel way that we're COVID-19sort of force is this digital
this attempted to DigitalTransformation among providers
who support it supportindividuals with disabilities.
And we're seeing, we're seeingthat in the field in the form of
more mobile based solutions,which help to keep somebody on
(30:16):
track on a task list. Or we'reseeing that being used as a way
to for better time andadministrative tracking for
staff who are in the field. Andthat's been really brought into
fruition by quite a number ofRFPs by grants that have been
going towards funding weactually ourselves in Arizona,
are part of a grant with the thedeveloper disability Planning
(30:41):
Council around trying to expandaccess to some of these
different technology productsfor helping folks continue their
day to day. What in employment.
And so hopefully, there's acontinuing trend of it was kind
of forced digital transformationis kind of forced innovation,
leading to some more sustainablestrategies. You know, even as a
(31:04):
pandemic seems to get into a bitof an equilibrium here.
How has being a sibling of anindividual with disabilities
impacted your own career paths?
Mike Carmody (31:17):
I think for me, I think I mean, everything that
I've done has kind of lined upwith my brother. Going back to
like, I remember a moment inthird grade. This is weird, I
always remember this, like Iwas, we were doing a parade
around our school. And there wasa young man with Down syndrome.
And I gravitated towards him andI held his hand and we walked
(31:38):
around the whole school. And Ithink from that moment on, I
just knew there was a while Ifought it, for some reason, I
wanted to teach history. Andthat lasted all but about a
semester. But I think that, forme, it's, it's just something
I've known. And I've finally,say, 12 years ago, I accepted
it. And I really relished theopportunity to be with my
(32:02):
brother and his peers. And itjust continued to grow and
learn, and push for change andstrive to create a better,
because when I try to create abetter life, for him, I'm
creating a better life formyself, too. And it's, I think
that's the thing is that I'mlearning more and more just from
him and his peers. So I'm justgrateful for the fact that I
(32:25):
woke up and accepted andrealized the gift he had given
me. When I was when he was born,
Byran Dai (32:33):
I want to plus one that I'm in this path because of
Brandon. But like Mike said, youknow, Brennan, in many ways,
helps me understand the autismcommunity helped me understand
and get connected more and moreto the broader disability
community. There are so manyareas where allies can step in,
I think, as siblings, we know wehave in some ways that that
(32:54):
unique opportunity to to be ableto do what we can to offer our
time off are all our resourcesto support not just our loved
ones, but everyone's loved ones.
Ryan Rotundo (33:08):
Yeah, I think those are some, those are some
great answers. Mike, I love whatyou said, when I, when I try to
create I wrote it down when Itried to create a better life
for him, I'm creating a betterlife for myself, I think that is
so so profound, and awesome. Andit's it kind of goes back to
that whole idea that, you know,disability rights are human
rights, right? Like, we're notjust doing this for a subgroup
(33:29):
of people and saying, Well, thiswill make life better for them.
This is this is going to, youknow, the things that we're
working toward the things thatwe're talking about specific to
employment are, are to betterthe community and to better the
workforce and to bettercompanies and to better outcomes
for all people. And what'sreally beautiful, I think about
kind of this time to be in thistime for change is that when we
(33:53):
start looking at inclusion,right, when we start looking at
inclusive education, and theimpact that it has on schools
and classrooms and communities,those future those are the
future generations that aregoing to be CEOs, right. Those
are the future generations of ofHR professionals and higher
employers who are going to lookat hiring people who are
(34:15):
differently abled, or people whohave disabilities, right. So I
think that when we look at kindof the way that this has
impacted our lives, I think itcan have a tremendous impact on
other people as well. And backto your point, Mike, it just, it
makes us all better. Right. So Ithink that's that's really
important.
Chris Berstler (34:33):
What resources or advice would you recommend
for any sibling, any siblings orself advocates out there
preparing to get out there andhelp each other find a good job?
Byran Dai (34:44):
What I might say is, actually I'll maybe I'll try and
share kind of two, two thoughts,which is that number one is that
there are amazing serviceproviders and organizations.
Even on this call, looking outfor Those type of services, I
will just give one very specificsuggestion, which is that we
(35:05):
were starting to see a increasein the number of disability
specific job boards andservices. A great one that we
know of is inclusively. There'salso a new program, please buy
Microsoft, which is not just fortechnology, but it's actually
meant for kind of the broader,the broader disability ecosystem
(35:25):
called the career connector. Sothose are some great places to
start looking within thosecommunity organizations that are
dedicated towards working withyou looking for technology, if
you're at home, which you mightbe able to use, you know, as
well, those are, I'd say,strategies that we always
(35:46):
recommend to always come todiversion is what is, you know,
there are, there might actuallybe tools already out there for
you. And we can I help you findthat and get connected.
Ryan Rotundo (35:55):
And speaking kind of from experience within the
public school system, in the inthe public service system, there
are, you know, I think pathwaysthat are more federal state
funded services that would, youknow, be more specific to
disability employment, I'mthinking specifically of
vocational rehabilitation,right. So, as a as an individual
(36:17):
would go through the publicschool system and maybe get
connected through pre employmenttransition services, which is
sort of this this brand of vocrehab services designed to kind
of help train and prepareindividuals for the job. You
know, they might get connectedthere, or they might get
connected directly to a vocrehab counselor who could then
help them through, you know, jobshadowing, job sampling,
(36:40):
applying to jobs in thecommunity, doing mock
interviews, things like that.
You know, I think that there'sobviously there are different
services that are available inthe community. Byron spoke of
some, some private companies,and even some tech companies
that are, you know, reallyentering into this space, I
think, you know, full steamahead and creating some
incredible platforms throughwhich people could get connected
(37:02):
from the convenience of acomputer, right, or a mobile
device. But when it comes toactually exploring within the
community, I think that, youknow, voc rehab could be a good
first option, it's probably whenfolks are most familiar with, I
will say that, like some, youknow, government operations, it
does work pretty, you know, slowat times. But I think that that
is definitely one that peoplewould be would be familiar with.
(37:26):
I also want to just mention thatthere are many coalition's and
collaborations happening nowbetween service organizations
and NDSS, as a part of onecalled the CEO commission for
Disability Employment. And we'reone of the cofounders. And the
goal is to just try to bringlike minded organizations
(37:47):
together, the CEO commission issort of a top down approach,
other organizations take on sortof like us, let's train the
entire workforce. Whereas CEOcommission is looking at, again,
speaking with CEOs directly orleadership in HR, to talk about
how to transform organizations.
And one group that we justbecame aware of is random. And
(38:10):
again, I don't know, I'm nottrying to plug specifically but
again, if it's going to helpsome folks kind of look through,
you know, the Rolodex to figureout who can who they can connect
with that might be another,another good one to look out
for.
Mike Carmody (38:22):
I think, just to add on really quickly what these
guys are saying, I think thiscontinuing to just throw out the
information to people indifferent ways, because I think
one of the things I've learnedis that sometimes people are
ready when people are ready. Butif we make them ready, sooner
than later, I think that helpsin the process for everyone. All
family members, especially sibs,because like, like you're
(38:44):
saying, earlier, sibs are theones who are going to have the
longest relationship. And if wehave those relationships with
other sibs, it's easier totransition home for everyone.
Chris Berstler (38:55):
Do you have any parting words of encouragement
for current job seekers in ourcommunities?
Byran Dai (39:01):
I'm going to share maybe what I heard once I really
liked, which is, it sounds likeDickert, discouragement, but I
promise it's not. But this ishard. Finding a job and finding
employment is hard. I think it'sjust worth saying that right
now. It doesn't matter.
disability and disability,finding a job is challenging.
It's difficult. You There aredays where you just feel
(39:25):
dejected. And you are not alone.
You know, this is something thatwe have found that there are so
many organizations that there'sso many people who are out here
who are championing you who wantto see you thrive, want to see
you succeed. I think any singleperson on this podcast, if
(39:48):
you're reaching out if you reachout to any of us, I think
there's a lot of enthusiasm tomake sure this doesn't feel like
a journey that you're walking byyourself. I liked that because
it's acknowledged is one thatThis is a journey. And this
journey is winding. But thereare but this also as a just
objective hiring environment andemployment environment is one
(40:12):
that is looking for talent, likeyou. And so this is just this is
really about knowing that we arehere and that there are many
resources that are here, lookingfor your success. And we're all
excited to see you when you makeit to the end.
Ryan Rotundo (40:30):
You know, for the longest time, I, my sister
wanted to have a boyfriend,right? Like that was her sole
focus in the teen years, justwanted to have a boyfriend
wanted to have a boyfriend. Andsometimes I would ask it like,
why do you want a boyfriend?
She's like, I don't know, I justwant to have a boyfriend. Right?
Like, that was just it. That washer answer. She's gonna kill me
when she listens to this, by theway. But, but that's kind of
sometimes we get in thatmentality, right? Like are our
(40:52):
loved one with a disability islike I want a job, I just want a
job, it doesn't matter. I justwant a job, right? Or another
kind of iteration of that is, Iwant to be a I want to be a
doctor, I want to be a doctorand you kind of, you know,
distill all this down. And itrequires a lot of discussion, a
lot of conversation. So it's aByron's point, there are people
(41:12):
that are that are alreadychampioning, you know the
efforts of a person with adisability who's looking for
employment. But a lot of times,that championing starts with a
conversation of okay, well, whydo you want a job? And what why
do you want that job and itreally kind of fleshing out
those details. And sometimes,you know, you have these
conversations I had, I had astudent one time, he wanted to
be a heart surgeon. And that waslike, that was like their only
(41:35):
focus. And, and then we kind ofhad all these different
conversations and mapping out,well, what does a heart surgeon
do? And how much do they make?
And what is the educationrequired? And what are the hours
and all those kinds ofrequirements, things. And it
came down to the fact that thisindividual was really wanted to
have a white coat, it was theprestige of wearing the white
coat, and being able to walkaround a hospital knowing that
(41:56):
you were the top dog, right,that you were the you were the
one that was you know, had this,this sort of this really, you
know, high level at the sideposition. So I think it
requires, you know, a wholeconversation around, you know,
why desiring that job, but also,what is the job bring what's the
value to this person's life?
Sometimes we, you know, I knowthis is our focus here is sibs
(42:17):
and employment, sometimes we canoveremphasize employment, right,
or we can over glorifyemployment. And, you know, with
with the National Down SyndromeSociety, we have on our website,
you know, success stories ofemployment. We have self
advocate on businesses. Andthese are incredible stories to
share. And really valuable, Ithink, parts of the community to
highlight, we also understandthat not everyone with Down
(42:40):
syndrome is going to besuccessful. And in a in a in a
competitive integratedemployment setting. Right. So
we've also want to make surethat we're talking through what
are some other vocationaltraining options, or what are
some volunteer opportunitiesthat might still bring
fulfillment to that person'slife, that doesn't necessarily
look like traditionalemployment. So when I bring that
up, as well,
Mike Carmody (43:01):
I think one of the things that I learned,
especially with my brothers, hedidn't have this really good
volunteer job that he he reallyliked. And he had an incident
where, you know, he had to belet go from that position. And I
think, to learn from thoseexperiences, and try something
new, or try something again, anda different attitude, and not
(43:22):
just give up, like there'ssomething that's out there for
everyone to be successful at,whether it's competitive
employment, whether it'svolunteering, there's something
out there, we just having thoseconversations, I love that with
the white coat, like gettingreally down to what it is we're
looking for. And just keeptrying. Like, that doesn't work.
Keep trying.
Chris Berstler (43:43):
Again, thank you so much for being here with us
today. Any resources that werementioned during the podcast, I
will make sure to put down inthe description area so you can
check out and check out ourCOVID-19 Resources section for
any safety tips on getting backout there and being employed.
Thank you so much.
Ryan Rotundo (44:01):
Thanks, Chris.
Byran Dai (44:02):
Thank you guys.
Mike Carmody (44:04):
Appreciate it.
Chris Berstler (44:05):
Find the resources, tools and information
about the sibling experience onsibling leadership dot board.
The sibling Leadership Networkis a nonprofit and we rely on
support from our audience. Findthe donation button on our
homepage and contribute to theever growing sibling movement.
Welcome to the Sibling Leadership Network
podcast. The Sibling LeadershipNetwork is a national nonprofit
whose mission is to providesiblings of individuals with
disabilities the informationsupport and tools to advocate
with their brothers and sistersand to promote the issue is
important to us and our entirefamilies.
(00:23):
Hello, and thank you for joiningus for another episode of the
SLN Podcast. Today we will betalking about sibs and
employment. I'm joined today byRyan Rotundo, sibling and
manager of employment programsat the National Down Syndrome
Society. Byran Dai, sibling andCEO and co founder of Divergent
and by Mike Carmody, sibling andexecutive leader of Opportunity
(00:47):
Knocks. Thank you all forjoining us today.
Please start off by telling usabout yourself, your siblings
and your current work.
Byran Dai (00:56):
Hi, everyone, my name is Byran. I'm the co founder and
CEO of Divergent. And I've run acompany that helps to build a
job readiness platform. And thisplatform does two things really
well, which is one, it helpsyoung adults and adolescents
with disabilities gain theskills that they need to become
independent and self sufficient.
And number two, is that we helpemployers become familiar about
(01:19):
disability and neurodivergenttalent, and actually help them
to hire that talent into theirorganizations. And so divergent
really is about serving as atechnology bridge. And really,
the genesis for this company isthat I serve as, as I said, I
have a brother Brandon, he's a22 year old, autistic self
advocate. For him, his goalshave always been very clear, get
(01:41):
a job, live his own life. Ourmom passed away, back in 2014.
And it really brought to life,you know, how challenging it can
be for us as siblings to be ableto work together to help make
the transition into adultservices, when you're having to
step up to the plate. So for usand you know, for me in
particular, that's really whatled me here today are two
(02:05):
divergent.
Ryan Rotundo (02:08):
So my name is Ryan Rotundo. And I am first and
foremost a sibling to an amazingyoung woman named Nicole who has
Down syndrome. And we finallyrefer to that it's just this
awesome extra 20/21 chromosome.
And I've, I've really, you know,being the younger sibling, I
think has sort of paved mycareer path in some ways and
(02:28):
just life choices. At an earlyage I got, you know, became
involved in Special Olympics andwhat we called buddy walks,
which are some local fundraiseropportunities for the Down
Syndrome Community, and laterrealized my calling to be a
special education teacher, I hadthe the unique privilege of also
being roommates as collegeroommates to some guys with Down
(02:49):
syndrome. In the post secondaryeducation program at the College
I attended, which wasincredible. I also had a chance
to work as the general managerfor a very dear friend of ours
named Tim Harris, who has DownSyndrome and owned his own
restaurant called Tim's place inAlbuquerque, New Mexico serving
breakfast, lunch and hugs. Andso all of those experiences sort
(03:09):
of culminated and I currentlyserve in a couple of different
roles. One is a public servantin the state of North Carolina,
a vice chair to North CarolinaCouncil on Developmental
Disabilities, and in in my dayto day role with the National
Down Syndrome Society as themanager of employment
programming. And in that role,part of our goal is to really
(03:29):
highlight success stories fromthe Down Syndrome Community,
from people who have reallyexcelled in employment, but also
in self employment and startingstarting and growing their own
businesses. We also look topartner with private sector
organizations, and nonprofitsand other organizations to
really create inroads foremployment and increase
inclusive opportunities withinthose organizations for people
(03:50):
with, with of course, Downsyndrome, but but disability
more broadly, as well. So thoseare some of the things I get to
work on, and happy to be here.
Thanks for having me.
Mike Carmody (04:00):
My name is Mike Carmody. I have a sibling who is
30... He just turned 35 withDown syndrome. And I work at an
organization called OpportunityKnocks, which we provide after
school and day programs forindividuals with developmental
disabilities.
Chris Berstler (04:18):
So currently, just under 18% of individuals
with disabilities in the US areemployed, why do you think that
number is so low?
Byran Dai (04:28):
I'm happy to offer offer a couple thoughts. I think
the you can look at it fromreally two, two perspectives. I
think the first is from theemployer side. What you're
seeing is that although it'schanging, you know, there is
still that continuing bias.
There's still the continuingconcerns that you may hear
companies articulate when itcomes to trying to bring in
(04:52):
extremely strong talent intotheir organizations. And it's,
it's frankly, it's out dated,but it persists. I think what
you're also finding is thatthere are really start to become
mismatches around vocationalpathways, where we aren't seeing
that the vocational trainingshave kept pace with where the
(05:13):
job growth is happening. And sowe're seeing that there are more
dependencies coming up ondigital skills, there aren't as
many often meaningful workexperiences, they're able to be
offered towards individuals whoare in high school or
university, who are movingtowards graduation, who have
disabilities. And so those canreally compound and B, a few of
(05:34):
the factors that we've seen inour line of work, or why you're
seeing sort of a persistentlyhigh unemployment rate.
Ryan Rotundo (05:48):
Yeah, I think I think that's spot on Byran, and
I'll ask, I'll add this to Iguess, a perspective, from maybe
the family, the family memberside, and I would say that's
sort of uncertainty, right. Soyou spoke about the job skill
training and the readinesscoming out of it, I would assume
coming out of high school, thattransition sort of into the
(06:08):
world of employment, or forfolks who are already
experiencing, you know, the thereal world and young adult life
and trying to access employment,but maybe not having the right,
or the most appropriate skillsets, I think training is
certainly a factor, but thenalso, you know, access to
information. And for families, Ithink there's oftentimes this
uncertainty about the cliff, wecall it the cliff, right? What
(06:30):
happens after, you know, thefederal laws and protections of
IDE EA, are no longer coveringor supporting our individuals
and loved ones with withdisabilities as they transition
out into the community intoworkplaces? So, you know, a part
of that is also, you know,thinking through, how do we
access employment and stillmaintain other key factors that
(06:53):
are supporting the loved onewith a disability, such as
benefits, you know, as many ofthe individuals that have a
disability that might also be apart of the job seeker pool is
our folks who are receiving, youknow, better benefits and may
not quite understand how earningcould impact those benefits. So,
there's a lot of misconception,there are a lot of myths out
(07:14):
there about how those two thingswork together, and how they can
be impacted by one another. So Ithink that a big issue for us
looking at employment for peoplewith disabilities moving forward
is how do we get informationinto the hands of the
individuals that have familymembers, and that there are, you
know, there are institutionsaround the country, there are
individuals who can helpnavigate through benefits
(07:37):
counseling, with workincentives. And, and then, of
course, we have a role calledSee, wicks are Community Work
Incentive Coordinators, who canhelp sort of navigate and look
at specific instances orindividuals situations and help
them navigate through some ofthat. But those are, I think, in
(07:59):
short supply, given the the needfor counseling, to help people
really access employment withoutthat uncertainty or without that
fear of losing out on benefits.
Mike Carmody (08:10):
I think in my experience, and my brother, I
think that people are sometimesput off and not open to the idea
of people with developmentaldifferences and and instead,
they're not utilized in aneffective manner, I think.
Chris Berstler (08:31):
Nice, thank you.
What challenges or roadblocks doare siblings with disabilities
face when trying to be gainfullyemployed?
Ryan Rotundo (08:40):
So I think just real broadly, a plan, I think
that one of the greatestroadblocks is, is having a plan
and when I say that, I kind ofyou know, I'm speaking of
several different factors oflife, you know, a plan for
accessing the community. Sotransportation can be a
tremendous hurdle for peoplewith disabilities seeking
gainful employment. And it also,you know, you look at another
(09:04):
piece and that is I mentionedbefore financial planning and
being able to understand sortof, again, the impacts of
earning, but also that that howdo we budget how do we make
everything that that comes intoour, you know, our bank account
or if if an individual with adisability even has a bank
account, right, and statisticswould show that individuals with
disabilities are among the, youknow, the one of the greatest
(09:27):
populations that is unbanked,right, so being able to look at
ways to build supports forpeople to not only earn, but to
save, and all that requires aplan right, and then also
thinking through some of the theaging population or the aging
caregivers, the parents that areperhaps kind of guiding the way
(09:48):
here and wanting to leave behindsome some pillars of support for
the loved one with a disabilitythings like you know, coming up
with special needs trust, right.
So having a special needs trustand play Ace, so that all of
these, you know, financialpieces are falling into place
the way that they should be tosupport that individual with a
disability. I think all of thatcomes into into play when we
talk about just creating asustainable, long term plan for
(10:11):
our loved one with a disability.
Byran Dai (10:17):
I think that's it.
That's, as Ryan put it, that'shuge. It's just that these are
the kinds of topics and thekinds of areas that the non
disability community, those whoare not directly in it, don't
give that thought about. I thinkwhat we're seeing, in addition,
in parallel is that much of thesocial structure much of the
(10:37):
much of the kind of norms andexpectations around what does it
mean to be employees are reallybuilt around that non disability
population that neurotypicalpopulation, you know, that can
be really anything from what isthe appropriate social
etiquette, or the unspoken normsthat never get taught in any
kind of a setting to thispopulation, or about the way in
(10:58):
which one even tries to beconsidered for employment. Now,
when it comes to, perhaps howsomeone interviews, these are,
these are really individualexamples that are not all
encompassing, but I think ofthem as sort of data points have
a kind of broader, a broaderstructural challenge that we
keep seeing, which is that thereare inadvertent roadblocks, like
(11:21):
it created for for ourselves.
And it's, it's actually reallyincumbent on allies and self
advocates together to actuallybe calling this out. And I think
it's, it's some ways to go, butit's it is an active effort
that, you know, is alreadystarting to bear fruit.
Mike Carmody (11:43):
I think in my experience in my brother, and I
think with the people I'veworked with, I think I'm, I
think just getting theopportunity, and people being
accepting and providing thespace for them. To have that
gainful employment, I think thatthere's been a lot of instances
where people have been interns.
And I think that people, I don'tthink people really see what the
(12:10):
person with a disability istotally capable of, and the
skill sets that they do have.
And taking the time to develop,or taking the time to learn
those skills, I think is a bigthing that I've seen that we
could do better, as is humanrace,
Chris Berstler (12:30):
Are racial discrimination and gender
inequity concerns for oursiblings as well?
Byran Dai (12:36):
I can share it from the perspective of what we see,
especially across autism acrossawesome, the different
neurodivergent conditioncategories, you'll absolutely
see unbelievable imbalances whenit comes to areas like
diagnoses, access to clinicalmedical care, which directly
affects access to services, thatis a direct correlation to
(13:02):
communities with higher racialdiversity, you're seeing that
that is a minute, those go handin hand. And that continues to
persist even to this day. Andwhat you're also seeing within
this is that even when somebodygets access to a clinician than
the autism community, you know,there's a significant under
diagnosis among females comparedto males. So I think when it
(13:26):
comes to our siblings, perhapsin my case, I have a brother, we
are in a community in whichwe've had the good fortune to be
closer to those kinds of thosekinds of medical services I
growing up. But the idea, that'sthe norm, you know, that's
really more the exception. Andso I think we really, you know,
(13:48):
owe to ourselves to be mindfulof that. So absolutely, I'd say
that these are big concerns.
Ryan Rotundo (13:55):
Great answer, Byron. I don't know that I add
much to that, actually.
Chris Berstler (14:03):
what role can siblings play in supporting
their brothers and sisters withdisabilities in employment?
Ryan Rotundo (14:11):
I've been waiting for this one. So I'll start us
off if that's all right. So forall, all the parents listening,
maybe put your ear muffs on fora minute. No, I think I think
you know, siblings, siblings areamazing. I've had the the honor
of working with hundreds, if not1000s of siblings over the
(14:31):
years, in some of my work withthe National Down Syndrome
Congress, running their brothersand sisters workshop as a young
man and just getting to kind ofpour into these kids and help
them sort of guide them throughthis curriculum of advocacy and
education and empowerment. And,you know, I think that siblings
are, we know they're the longestlasting relationship that a
(14:53):
sibling with Down syndrome oranother disability is going to
have, right so there's justthere's power in those numbers.
And to build that relationshipand to have these, you know,
these lives in parallel, and,you know, I'll just say this
too, that not every sibling, youknow, decides to take a path
like Mike or Byron or myselfwhere they're, you know, kind of
giving back in some ways to thatspecific need in the community
(15:16):
or for their loved one with adisability. And that's totally
okay. Right. But I think thatthere's also a good portion of
sibs, who who take on this lifeof service or this, you know, at
least in some ways, this, thisperipheral, you know, protection
of their sibling with adisability. And so I think that
one of our first roles that weexperience is just being able to
(15:38):
encourage them as any siblingwould do for their sibling,
right, not just disability side,right, you're just encouraging
you're building each other upand kind of helping each other
along. And then the other pieceis, and this is where I say, for
parents, maybe taking theearphones off, serving his 10
years as a nurse put theearphones on, rather, serving in
10 years as 10, as a specialeducation teacher of 10 years in
(16:00):
the State of North Carolina, Ihad the opportunity to meet and
have IEP meetings and thesetransition planning meetings
with many, many families and,and professionals in the field.
And this word just always cameup. And it's it's a part of
setting goals, I understandthis, but the word realistic,
right and setting a realisticgoal for yourself. And it would
(16:21):
just pay me sometimes to hearhow that word was being used in
some ways to put a cap on theabilities or the goals or the
aspirations of the individualwith a disability. And I get
that it comes from a lovingplace, or of a place of saying,
well, let's make sure we takethis in stride and piece by
piece and that sort of thing.
But I think if we're notcareful, oftentimes, I ran into
(16:42):
situations where we had these,you've heard of helicopter
parents, where we ran into a lotof lawnmower parents we call
them, where they're mowing downeverything in the path of their
loved one with a disability,there's their son, daughter with
a disability so that they neverhad to experience those
challenges. Right. And, and partof that is also saying, well,
that's not really a realisticgoal. Right? And, and we heard
(17:03):
this, I got to share the story alot working with my buddy, Tim,
his parents. And at first theysaid, Hey, Tim, what do you want
to do when you grow up? Timsaid, I want to own a
restaurant. And at first theysaid, Well, Tim, that's not
realistic, right? There's thatword realistic, and, and then
eventually, they started to takehim seriously. And they tried to
figure out a plan. And he'strying to put pieces in place to
(17:24):
make it happen for him. And hedid. And as far as we know, he's
the first guy with Down syndromein the world to own his own
restaurant. So it's just partof, you know, helping your
sibling with a disability again,just by encouraging them, but
also maybe reminding the otherfolks in the room, that there
are abilities beyond maybe whatthey see for that family member
that loved one with with adisability, and sometimes
(17:48):
siblings, I think, get a frontrow seat to that.
Mike Carmody (17:52):
I think to add to that, I think one of the things
that I'd like to stress with mybrother and my parents, which
has been really an area ofopportunity is the idea of
protecting. I think that a lotof times people with
disabilities need to beprotected. And I think what the
one of the things that I'verealized is that we need to set
(18:14):
it up to where if we're nothere, he can have some sort of
tool to continue to moveforward. And I think this idea
of protecting and like paddling,I'm definitely someone who was
my brother, especially like, I'mgoing to push him like you were
talking about Ryan, I'm going topush him and challenge him.
Because I know he can do more.
And sometimes people give methat look like Wait, are you
(18:38):
serious? And I'm like, No, thisis this is how we're going to do
it. And I think accountabilityand like not protecting are very
important.
Ryan Rotundo (18:49):
That's funny one, it's one thing if someone tries
to push your sibling, you knowto achieve or maybe out of their
comfort zone. It's a wholenother thing when you get to do
it. Right. Like I don't alwayslike watching other people try
to push my sister but but when Iget to do it, it seems to be
more motivating or something Idon't know, to get that sibling
past right. There's a huge pieceto this whole barriers and
(19:13):
roadblocks conversation in thatis policy. Right, the
legislation that undergirds thewhole system and and some of
these pieces of legislation thathave been around and are really
antiquated and have no place inthe 21st century, particularly
when we're speaking aboutdisability employment, one of
which is I'm sure, folks on thiscall and hopefully some folks
(19:35):
listening are familiar withsection 14 C of the Fair Labor
Standards Act often referred toas the sub minimum wage or the
commensurate wage law allowingorganizations to pay individuals
with disabilities a wage that isless than the minimum wage,
simply based on the fact thatthey have a disability and it's
based on an algorithm that thatsaid to determine productivity
(19:57):
level and all those things buthistory As an aside, the the
overall focus of I think thegreater disability community at
this point in time is thatthere's absolutely no place for
Section 14 C in any state or anyarea across the United States.
So, you know, we have at themoment 12 states that have
(20:17):
passed legislation to eliminatesection 14 C, two states are
sort of working toward it NorthCarolina, my home state being
one that has come to anagreement with the Department of
Health and Human Services tophase out these practices in
segregated work settings, thestate of Texas has also taken
(20:38):
action to sort of eliminate someof these practices. And there's
sort of two parts to thisconversation. And I want to be
really clear here, because Iknow that it can, it can be a
point of contention in the inthe conversation around section
14 C, but sheltered workshopsand segregated work settings are
oftentimes the setting throughwhich these section 14 C
(21:01):
certificates, which I shouldmention are also issued by the
Department of Labor, toorganizations that are hiring
people with disabilities to dothe work. These are often
utilized within segregated worksettings. And we understand that
for some families, that feelslike the best option. So you
know, the case being made. And alot of the work that I do with
(21:23):
the National Down SyndromeSociety is not that that is not
a viable option. For some, werealize that some families do
rely on on those types of worksettings to support their loved
one with a disability. What weare saying is that if they're
going to be working there, theyshould be making a minimum wage,
right? That is the, that is thepoint I think we can all agree
(21:44):
on. So just want to bring thatup. Because it's, it's easy to
see how making, you know, aslittle as 22 cents an hour can
significantly impede a person'sability to become financially
stable. So that is a tremendousroadblock, when we're talking
about employment for people withdisabilities.
Chris Berstler (22:00):
How can we as siblings best advocate with our
siblings with disabilities, forinclusive and equitable
employment opportunities?
Byran Dai (22:09):
For all of us, here, we have that unique position of
really being that built an ally,our voices that carry more
weights, as family members,they're second only to self
advocates themselves, that weare the ones that jump into
employee resource groups, andcompanies, you know, if you're
someone who on this podcastwho's listening, who's at a
fortune 500, or corporateentity, that's a responsibility
(22:33):
that you can find yourselftaking on alongside self
advocates in that organization.
I think, you know, there areplatforms just like what's going
on here with SLN, you know, it'sabout also normalizing the
conversation more probably, evenoutside your company, around
disability not as charity, butas a clear business value. I
think that's really about makingthat narrative of, you know,
(22:54):
there can be an impact. Butyou're also a company that needs
strong talent, and strong talentis going to come from this
community. And it's going toreally add significant value to
your organization. And so whenyou're seeing that kind of that
kind of ally ship, you know, inwhich, like, with Ryan, like
with Mike, where you areparticipating with service
(23:16):
providers, you're doing a resumeworkshop with your, your
sibling, your brother, yoursister, you know, just being an
active, contributing member, inpushing that idea of inclusive
and equitable employment andsort of normalize that
conversation. That's whereyou're gonna get, I think, a lot
of value as a sin to make animpact. Or you can.
Ryan Rotundo (23:38):
Yeah, and I think that's, I think that's spot on.
And I also, you know, towhatever degree appropriate, I
know that, you know, everyonehas their strengths and areas
of, you know, need foradditional support and, and that
sort of thing. And I know that,you know, I think I guess it's
the greatest fear that peoplehave is the fear of public
speaking. But I would say thatif you can encourage your
(24:00):
sibling to use their, theirpersonal testimony, there's, I
feel like there are a few thingsthat are as powerful as that
personal testimony and maybeit's a testimony of overcoming
and actually accessingemployment or having success in
small business, you know,ownership or, or maybe it's a
story of struggle and how doorswere closed and how, you know,
(24:21):
inequities we're seeing throughthis process of trying to access
the world of employment. And,you know, I think either way,
again, just that personaltestimony can be incredibly
powerful. I was completely blownaway and this is coming from a
guy again, younger sibling ofsomeone with Down syndrome,
spent most of my life sort of inthis field are dedicated to this
(24:42):
type of work. And I was blownaway when I got to the National
Down Syndrome Society and metseveral self advocates who are
on staff with us who have aresume that I felt like puts me
to shame right, these are, theseare young men, young women with
Down Syndrome who are lobbyingCongress who are staying Getting
up and giving testimony in frontof the lawmakers of the United
(25:03):
States and saying this issomething that needs to change
and their testimony is powerful.
So I think lifting up thosevoices and just encouraging them
to share their stories can bevery valuable as well.
Mike Carmody (25:13):
I think you guys both have great answers. One of
the things that I'm exploringthis idea, and I'm sure other
people have done this, too. Butthis idea of normalizing
everyone, so we're all at thesame level. And I think one of
the things that I've seen isthat we do this intro
disabilities, training with ournew staff, and all the different
(25:35):
characteristics of all thedifferent disabilities. And I
think it's, for me, I always geta good laugh, because when I
hear the characteristics, andsome of the things that come up
all the time, I always raise myhand too, because, like
impulsive, like, Yes, that's me.
And I think that idea of justkind of trying to relate to
people, and persons withdisabilities, and how we're all
(25:58):
pretty similar. Once you reallystop and like, kind of just take
a look at the bigger picture.
Chris Berstler (26:08):
How has the COVID-19 pandemic changed
employment for individuals withdisabilities and their families?
Ryan Rotundo (26:14):
I can speak to kind of two angles of this one,
personally, my sister having apart time job working at a
hotel, in our, in our communityand loving it, and it's an
inclusive employment setting,she's, you know, she's got her
routine of arriving to work ontime and having a little bit of
time before to kind of socializewith their co workers. And then
(26:37):
she does her shift, and then shehas some time afterward. This
was also the place ofemployment, where she met her
boyfriend of three years. Sojust a lot of, you know, great
connection, and it's everything,you know, employment is, I'll
say, also another key, it's akey factor of quality of life,
but it leads to other keyfactors of quality of life,
(26:57):
right, so that relationshipbuilding that that community
and, and those relationships,so, but anyway, during COVID-19,
she was the her hours werereduced. And in fact, she was
told that she wouldn't be ableto come in because the the hotel
actually shut down for a numberof months. So so it wasn't just
a paycheck, right, it was thesepersonal experiences and these
relationships and, and so wefound that she, you know, kind
(27:21):
of became more withdrawn, andshe was having a hard time not
getting to see and be a part ofthe social circles that had
formed within her her place ofemployment. So not so different
than, you know, some of thethings we might have experienced
right during a lockdownsituation where we didn't get to
interact with folks in ourcommunity as much. So I would
(27:42):
say that that was one of themost sort of personal
experiences that our family had,and you know, talking with her
on the phone and encouraging herand kind of helping her try to
see the light at the end of thetunnel, even when it felt like
there might not have been a veryclose light during the pandemic
and some of the shutdown times.
But But, but that was definitelysomething that affected her. And
then I'll say this, too, youknow, with my work at the North
(28:03):
Carolina Council onDevelopmental Disabilities,
we're starting to see now morethan ever the lasting effects of
a direct support professionalcrisis that we are in as a
country, the DSP crisis, andthat is the shortage of labor
specific to those that supportindividuals with disabilities in
to access the community. And tothe point that we have council
(28:28):
members who are very activeadvocates in our state who are a
part of, you know, makingdecisions and how programs are
formed and how initiatives arecarried out within the state of
North Carolina, who, again, selfadvocates, who cannot get to our
meetings, because they don'thave the staff, they don't have
the transportation to help themget out of bed in the morning
(28:49):
and get themselves clothed andchanged and all those things.
And that is a again, that is acrisis. And that is a direct
impact of, of COVID-19. So, sothat has definitely, you know,
strained our system and put alot of people in some pretty
difficult situations.
Chris Berstler (29:07):
Right, I was I was gonna absolutely highlight
that DSP point. You'reabsolutely right, that you're
seeing. There's so muchcompetition for DSP talent. And
you're seeing that I'm hopingwhat I'm hoping is that you're
seeing states and you're seeingorganizations sort of start to
wake up to that reality. Youknow, these are this is a
fingers crossed moment that itcontinues. Something that has
(29:30):
kind of followed from that iswith the additional funding that
had come in from the the federalinfrastructure bill is the
beginning of States looking intoexpanding assistive technologies
for the use by job coaches, byjob developers, by community
agencies and organizations, Ithink, in another sort of
(29:53):
parallel way that we're COVID-19sort of force is this digital
this attempted to DigitalTransformation among providers
who support it supportindividuals with disabilities.
And we're seeing, we're seeingthat in the field in the form of
more mobile based solutions,which help to keep somebody on
(30:16):
track on a task list. Or we'reseeing that being used as a way
to for better time andadministrative tracking for
staff who are in the field. Andthat's been really brought into
fruition by quite a number ofRFPs by grants that have been
going towards funding weactually ourselves in Arizona,
are part of a grant with the thedeveloper disability Planning
(30:41):
Council around trying to expandaccess to some of these
different technology productsfor helping folks continue their
day to day. What in employment.
And so hopefully, there's acontinuing trend of it was kind
of forced digital transformationis kind of forced innovation,
leading to some more sustainablestrategies. You know, even as a
(31:04):
pandemic seems to get into a bitof an equilibrium here.
How has being a sibling of anindividual with disabilities
impacted your own career paths?
Mike Carmody (31:17):
I think for me, I think I mean, everything that
I've done has kind of lined upwith my brother. Going back to
like, I remember a moment inthird grade. This is weird, I
always remember this, like Iwas, we were doing a parade
around our school. And there wasa young man with Down syndrome.
And I gravitated towards him andI held his hand and we walked
(31:38):
around the whole school. And Ithink from that moment on, I
just knew there was a while Ifought it, for some reason, I
wanted to teach history. Andthat lasted all but about a
semester. But I think that, forme, it's, it's just something
I've known. And I've finally,say, 12 years ago, I accepted
it. And I really relished theopportunity to be with my
(32:02):
brother and his peers. And itjust continued to grow and
learn, and push for change andstrive to create a better,
because when I try to create abetter life, for him, I'm
creating a better life formyself, too. And it's, I think
that's the thing is that I'mlearning more and more just from
him and his peers. So I'm justgrateful for the fact that I
(32:25):
woke up and accepted andrealized the gift he had given
me. When I was when he was born,
Byran Dai (32:33):
I want to plus one that I'm in this path because of
Brandon. But like Mike said, youknow, Brennan, in many ways,
helps me understand the autismcommunity helped me understand
and get connected more and moreto the broader disability
community. There are so manyareas where allies can step in,
I think, as siblings, we know wehave in some ways that that
(32:54):
unique opportunity to to be ableto do what we can to offer our
time off are all our resourcesto support not just our loved
ones, but everyone's loved ones.
Ryan Rotundo (33:08):
Yeah, I think those are some, those are some
great answers. Mike, I love whatyou said, when I, when I try to
create I wrote it down when Itried to create a better life
for him, I'm creating a betterlife for myself, I think that is
so so profound, and awesome. Andit's it kind of goes back to
that whole idea that, you know,disability rights are human
rights, right? Like, we're notjust doing this for a subgroup
(33:29):
of people and saying, Well, thiswill make life better for them.
This is this is going to, youknow, the things that we're
working toward the things thatwe're talking about specific to
employment are, are to betterthe community and to better the
workforce and to bettercompanies and to better outcomes
for all people. And what'sreally beautiful, I think about
kind of this time to be in thistime for change is that when we
(33:53):
start looking at inclusion,right, when we start looking at
inclusive education, and theimpact that it has on schools
and classrooms and communities,those future those are the
future generations that aregoing to be CEOs, right. Those
are the future generations of ofHR professionals and higher
employers who are going to lookat hiring people who are
(34:15):
differently abled, or people whohave disabilities, right. So I
think that when we look at kindof the way that this has
impacted our lives, I think itcan have a tremendous impact on
other people as well. And backto your point, Mike, it just, it
makes us all better. Right. So Ithink that's that's really
important.
Chris Berstler (34:33):
What resources or advice would you recommend
for any sibling, any siblings orself advocates out there
preparing to get out there andhelp each other find a good job?
Byran Dai (34:44):
What I might say is, actually I'll maybe I'll try and
share kind of two, two thoughts,which is that number one is that
there are amazing serviceproviders and organizations.
Even on this call, looking outfor Those type of services, I
will just give one very specificsuggestion, which is that we
(35:05):
were starting to see a increasein the number of disability
specific job boards andservices. A great one that we
know of is inclusively. There'salso a new program, please buy
Microsoft, which is not just fortechnology, but it's actually
meant for kind of the broader,the broader disability ecosystem
(35:25):
called the career connector. Sothose are some great places to
start looking within thosecommunity organizations that are
dedicated towards working withyou looking for technology, if
you're at home, which you mightbe able to use, you know, as
well, those are, I'd say,strategies that we always
(35:46):
recommend to always come todiversion is what is, you know,
there are, there might actuallybe tools already out there for
you. And we can I help you findthat and get connected.
Ryan Rotundo (35:55):
And speaking kind of from experience within the
public school system, in the inthe public service system, there
are, you know, I think pathwaysthat are more federal state
funded services that would, youknow, be more specific to
disability employment, I'mthinking specifically of
vocational rehabilitation,right. So, as a as an individual
(36:17):
would go through the publicschool system and maybe get
connected through pre employmenttransition services, which is
sort of this this brand of vocrehab services designed to kind
of help train and prepareindividuals for the job. You
know, they might get connectedthere, or they might get
connected directly to a vocrehab counselor who could then
help them through, you know, jobshadowing, job sampling,
(36:40):
applying to jobs in thecommunity, doing mock
interviews, things like that.
You know, I think that there'sobviously there are different
services that are available inthe community. Byron spoke of
some, some private companies,and even some tech companies
that are, you know, reallyentering into this space, I
think, you know, full steamahead and creating some
incredible platforms throughwhich people could get connected
(37:02):
from the convenience of acomputer, right, or a mobile
device. But when it comes toactually exploring within the
community, I think that, youknow, voc rehab could be a good
first option, it's probably whenfolks are most familiar with, I
will say that, like some, youknow, government operations, it
does work pretty, you know, slowat times. But I think that that
is definitely one that peoplewould be would be familiar with.
(37:26):
I also want to just mention thatthere are many coalition's and
collaborations happening nowbetween service organizations
and NDSS, as a part of onecalled the CEO commission for
Disability Employment. And we'reone of the cofounders. And the
goal is to just try to bringlike minded organizations
(37:47):
together, the CEO commission issort of a top down approach,
other organizations take on sortof like us, let's train the
entire workforce. Whereas CEOcommission is looking at, again,
speaking with CEOs directly orleadership in HR, to talk about
how to transform organizations.
And one group that we justbecame aware of is random. And
(38:10):
again, I don't know, I'm nottrying to plug specifically but
again, if it's going to helpsome folks kind of look through,
you know, the Rolodex to figureout who can who they can connect
with that might be another,another good one to look out
for.
Mike Carmody (38:22):
I think, just to add on really quickly what these
guys are saying, I think thiscontinuing to just throw out the
information to people indifferent ways, because I think
one of the things I've learnedis that sometimes people are
ready when people are ready. Butif we make them ready, sooner
than later, I think that helpsin the process for everyone. All
family members, especially sibs,because like, like you're
(38:44):
saying, earlier, sibs are theones who are going to have the
longest relationship. And if wehave those relationships with
other sibs, it's easier totransition home for everyone.
Chris Berstler (38:55):
Do you have any parting words of encouragement
for current job seekers in ourcommunities?
Byran Dai (39:01):
I'm going to share maybe what I heard once I really
liked, which is, it sounds likeDickert, discouragement, but I
promise it's not. But this ishard. Finding a job and finding
employment is hard. I think it'sjust worth saying that right
now. It doesn't matter.
disability and disability,finding a job is challenging.
It's difficult. You There aredays where you just feel
(39:25):
dejected. And you are not alone.
You know, this is something thatwe have found that there are so
many organizations that there'sso many people who are out here
who are championing you who wantto see you thrive, want to see
you succeed. I think any singleperson on this podcast, if
(39:48):
you're reaching out if you reachout to any of us, I think
there's a lot of enthusiasm tomake sure this doesn't feel like
a journey that you're walking byyourself. I liked that because
it's acknowledged is one thatThis is a journey. And this
journey is winding. But thereare but this also as a just
objective hiring environment andemployment environment is one
(40:12):
that is looking for talent, likeyou. And so this is just this is
really about knowing that we arehere and that there are many
resources that are here, lookingfor your success. And we're all
excited to see you when you makeit to the end.
Ryan Rotundo (40:30):
You know, for the longest time, I, my sister
wanted to have a boyfriend,right? Like that was her sole
focus in the teen years, justwanted to have a boyfriend
wanted to have a boyfriend. Andsometimes I would ask it like,
why do you want a boyfriend?
She's like, I don't know, I justwant to have a boyfriend. Right?
Like, that was just it. That washer answer. She's gonna kill me
when she listens to this, by theway. But, but that's kind of
sometimes we get in thatmentality, right? Like are our
(40:52):
loved one with a disability islike I want a job, I just want a
job, it doesn't matter. I justwant a job, right? Or another
kind of iteration of that is, Iwant to be a I want to be a
doctor, I want to be a doctorand you kind of, you know,
distill all this down. And itrequires a lot of discussion, a
lot of conversation. So it's aByron's point, there are people
(41:12):
that are that are alreadychampioning, you know the
efforts of a person with adisability who's looking for
employment. But a lot of times,that championing starts with a
conversation of okay, well, whydo you want a job? And what why
do you want that job and itreally kind of fleshing out
those details. And sometimes,you know, you have these
conversations I had, I had astudent one time, he wanted to
be a heart surgeon. And that waslike, that was like their only
(41:35):
focus. And, and then we kind ofhad all these different
conversations and mapping out,well, what does a heart surgeon
do? And how much do they make?
And what is the educationrequired? And what are the hours
and all those kinds ofrequirements, things. And it
came down to the fact that thisindividual was really wanted to
have a white coat, it was theprestige of wearing the white
coat, and being able to walkaround a hospital knowing that
(41:56):
you were the top dog, right,that you were the you were the
one that was you know, had this,this sort of this really, you
know, high level at the sideposition. So I think it
requires, you know, a wholeconversation around, you know,
why desiring that job, but also,what is the job bring what's the
value to this person's life?
Sometimes we, you know, I knowthis is our focus here is sibs
(42:17):
and employment, sometimes we canoveremphasize employment, right,
or we can over glorifyemployment. And, you know, with
with the National Down SyndromeSociety, we have on our website,
you know, success stories ofemployment. We have self
advocate on businesses. Andthese are incredible stories to
share. And really valuable, Ithink, parts of the community to
highlight, we also understandthat not everyone with Down
(42:40):
syndrome is going to besuccessful. And in a in a in a
competitive integratedemployment setting. Right. So
we've also want to make surethat we're talking through what
are some other vocationaltraining options, or what are
some volunteer opportunitiesthat might still bring
fulfillment to that person'slife, that doesn't necessarily
look like traditionalemployment. So when I bring that
up, as well,
Mike Carmody (43:01):
I think one of the things that I learned,
especially with my brothers, hedidn't have this really good
volunteer job that he he reallyliked. And he had an incident
where, you know, he had to belet go from that position. And I
think, to learn from thoseexperiences, and try something
new, or try something again, anda different attitude, and not
(43:22):
just give up, like there'ssomething that's out there for
everyone to be successful at,whether it's competitive
employment, whether it'svolunteering, there's something
out there, we just having thoseconversations, I love that with
the white coat, like gettingreally down to what it is we're
looking for. And just keeptrying. Like, that doesn't work.
Keep trying.
Chris Berstler (43:43):
Again, thank you so much for being here with us
today. Any resources that werementioned during the podcast, I
will make sure to put down inthe description area so you can
check out and check out ourCOVID-19 Resources section for
any safety tips on getting backout there and being employed.
Thank you so much.
Ryan Rotundo (44:01):
Thanks, Chris.
Byran Dai (44:02):
Thank you guys.
Mike Carmody (44:04):
Appreciate it.
Chris Berstler (44:05):
Find the resources, tools and information
about the sibling experience onsibling leadership dot board.
The sibling Leadership Networkis a nonprofit and we rely on
support from our audience. Findthe donation button on our
homepage and contribute to theever growing sibling movement.
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