Underlord Part 2 - Will Wight - The Side Quest Book Club Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Jonathan (00:10):
Good morning, good afternoon, and good night,
wherever you're tuning in. Weare Slava and Jonathan bringing
you the SideQuest podcast wherewe talk about character
development, stories, and allthings that are world building.
And we occasionally takeSideQuest because, frankly,

(00:42):
Welcome back, fellow booklovers. As we set off on today's
side quest, be sure to hit thatsubscribe button so you never
miss an episode.

Slava (00:50):
Yes, sir, Jonathan. We are in episode 102 Mhmm. Part 2
of Underlord by Will White.

Jonathan (01:02):
That is correct. Little housekeeping before we
start. I hope you guys enjoyedthe special episodes. Please
comment and reach out to let usknow if you like them, you don't
like them. If you don't likethem, we won't do them.
Them. They're actually way morework than these normal episodes,
but we have gotten somecomments, like, people asking
and you we said this in theother episode of, like, what's

(01:23):
it take to make a podcast? Howdo I do one? So we wanted to
make it for those people. But ifthe majority of you are not on
board, then, like, let us know,and we will simply save the
time.

Slava (01:33):
Absolutely. It takes a lot of work, extra work to make
an episode like that. And onemight think the opposite where
you're preparing for a bookepisode, you're doing the
research, I'm doing theresearch, you're doing your own
thing. We get together and havecalls before the episodes to
make sure the outline, thetemplate, and the framework is

(01:54):
all in sync with what each of uswanna say so it flows well. That
takes a lot less time thansitting down and writing out a
storyboard or a script and atemplate for reflections on 99
episodes or what we did inepisode 100 where we talked
about some of our favoritemoments and discussed the

(02:15):
journey from a differentperspective.
That takes weeks weeks ofpreparation where an episode
like this takes a few days. Andif it takes more for me to do
the research of the author andthe book itself and some of the
other elements that we havebrought into the new template,
that's spread out over a longperiod of time as we're reading

(02:37):
the book, so it doesn't feel asa heavy over lift. So to echo
what you said, Jonathan, yeah,the audience doesn't need us
pontificating on favorite booksand podcast best practices, so
I'm happy to stop.

Jonathan (02:51):
Yeah. Me too. Me too. Anyway, we've got the second
episode of Cradle right now forUnderlord, and then next
episode, we're super excited tohave the largest guest episode
we've ever had. You'll see somereturning guests and a surprise
guest, which will be cool.
And then after that, the 2025schedule continues going. So

(03:12):
we're looking forward to that.There is, like, one discrepancy
on which book we're doing afterthis, so we'll let you show up
for the surprise. Anyway, let'sdive right in, Slava.

Slava (03:23):
The dread gods are awakening, prompting the
monarchs of Kratel to hold theuncrowned tournament to
cultivate new sacred artists.The Akura clan opens night with
Weil Valley to their vassalstates, the Black Flame Empire
and the Seishin Kingdom. AkuraCharity will select the top 3
underlords from each kingdomwith a focus on targeting Lindon

(03:46):
due to his role in AkuraHarmony's death. In night, Wheel
Valley, Seishin Kiro, and hisprotector Miara confront Lindon
who eventually becomes anunderlord. Yarin also manages to
advance to underlord amidst thechaos of a surprise attack by
the Seishin Kingdom on the BlackFlame Empire.

(04:07):
During this turmoil, Lindonkills prince Kiro, prompting
prince Daegai to vow revenge,only to be defeated by Mercy.
Afterward, Charity announces thevassal state team for the
tournament. Yaren, Aethan, andNaru Seiya will compete while

(04:27):
Lindon will participate on theBlack Flame team to repay his
debt. Meanwhile, in SacredValley, Wei Shi Kelsa hiding
from hunters in Kaunters Orthos.And, of course, the Evian
continue their struggles againstthe Roshier as they fight to
protect their worlds.

Jonathan (04:49):
It's an exciting time over in the world of Cradle.
Tell you that much.

Slava (04:52):
That it is. Yeah.

Jonathan (04:53):
I also just love the moment of Ortho showing up

Slava (04:59):
Oh, hell yeah.

Jonathan (05:00):
For Kelsey. To me, it was a very emotional moving
moment, because you're like,he's leaving. I don't know where
he's going. And then you'relike, oh, we're going back to
Sacred Valley. And thensuddenly, he shows up, and
you're like, oh my gosh.
It's such a great reveal.

Slava (05:14):
It is. Once you read that Orthos is leaving, you think
he's going somewhere else, andhe he'll come back and book
whatever. And at the end of it,he's like, oh, wait. He went on
a quest, but it was a veryspecial site quest that he went
on.

Jonathan (05:29):
Exactly. Yeah. It moved me emotionally. I'll tell
you that much.

Slava (05:33):
And who do we have to thank for these emotional
movements?

Jonathan (05:36):
Oh, just mister Will White, best selling American
fantasy author known for hisCradle series. He started his
authorship with the House ofBlades trilogy, which is fun and
unique. There's these it'scalled the Traveler's Gate
trilogy, but House of Blades isthe first book, if I'm
remembering correctly. And it'sthese fortresses, basically.

(05:59):
Each fortress has sort of adifferent theme, and the one
that you follow with the maincharacter is you can't get to
the next room unless you'repowerful enough to get to the
next room.
There's also a time limit wherethe entity of the house I
haven't read this in a while, soif I'm messing this up, you
know, drop it in the commentsand correct me. But the entity

(06:20):
that, like, runs the house willkill the person who is there
trying to go through the thedifferent rooms if they can't do
it in time. That also is wherethe character gets trained
because they need to overcomethese rooms. The entity that
runs the house has a dollcollection, and the dolls speak
even though they don't move, soit's like telepathy. But each of
the dolls, when you carry them,has a different power that you

(06:41):
get to use.
It's, like, super unique.

Slava (06:43):
If Annabelle knew karate.

Jonathan (06:45):
I don't get the reference.

Slava (06:46):
Annabelle is a horror movie about a possessed doll.
Ah. It's a silly joke.

Jonathan (06:52):
Got it. Well If you know, you know. Apparently, I
don't. Anyway, worth a read. Ithink we'll get to it at some
point.
It's that's his first debutauthorship piece, which is
really fun. But White is oftencelebrated for his dynamic
characters, fast pacedstorytelling, and immersive
world building. He's currentlyworking on a new series called

(07:12):
Horizon. It's in the Cradleuniverse, and also, House of
Blades is technically in theCradle universe. There's no
overlaps at the moment besidessome bloopers from book 1 of
Horizon, where we see acharacter from Cradle, which was
kind of fun.
He's good at forcing hischaracters to go through strong
emotional arcs across the booksthat I've read. He's worth a

(07:35):
read. Yeah. If you are like, I'mnot sure about this, give it
give him a rundown. Give him arundown.
So Slava, let's move intosomething we didn't talk about
last time. As the audienceknows, we're trying to create
education and entertainment inthis podcast, and we didn't
cover last time characters andthe types of characters that

(07:57):
they are in the story. Would yougive us just a quick overview
before we jump into this? Forany new listeners, what are the
types of characters? What are wegonna be discussing here for a
little bit Yeah.
So that they have a littlecontext?

Slava (08:11):
There are probably 6. You can parse this out a few
different ways. For our context,there will be 6. So there's the
hero or the protagonist. There'sthe mentor.
There is the deuteragonist, ifI'm pronouncing that right, but
the second protagonist, kindathe the Robin to the Batman, if

(08:31):
you will. The villain, ofcourse. There's usually allies
for the protagonist, and thenthere's the antihero in a lot of
books. Sometimes the book justfocuses on an antihero and he or
she is the protagonist, but forus, we have all 6.

Jonathan (08:49):
There's more as well. Yeah. I realized I put you on
the spot there. There's, like,the foil. We talked about this
during Yeah.
Name of the wind. So there's abunch of different character
types archetypes, if you will,and each author uses them
differently. Some of the thingsthat we subconsciously actually
really love as readers iswatching these characters play

(09:11):
out these different archetypesbecause the flavor of the
archetype is unique to theauthor and the story and the
world. Yeah. We wanna just takea minute and look at the
different types that White usesin Cradle.

Slava (09:23):
Yeah. So the villain will be the core faction and their
representatives. They are alwaysa looming threat. They're not
outright villains, but theyserve as a powerful, potentially
hostile force within the empire.Right?
Their influence in the world,they add political intrigue that

(09:44):
foreshadows danger. What else?Like I said, there's conflicts
that Linden and his friends facedirectly from Acura or from the
efforts of Acura in world, theconsequences of them, the
consequences of those efforts.Their dominance kind of sets the
standard that pushes theprotagonist on their journey.

Jonathan (10:06):
Yeah. It's interesting to have a villain that's not a
villain because oftentimes, Ithink we're used to, like,
what's a what's a commonexample? Sonic. If you know
about Sonic the Hedgehog, doctorRobotnik is the villain, and
he's the villain every episodeor Looney Tunes. Right?
Wile E. Coyote is always tryingto get Roadrunner. And it's

(10:26):
like, oh, well, he's thevillain. You know? We understand
that.
What's the well, I wanna I wannause the third one. So, Bugs
Bunny is always running awayfrom do you remember the guy's
name? The little person whoElmer Fudd. Elmer Fudd. That's
right.
We have these, quote, unquote,villains, but the thing is they
don't have to be super evil inthe sense that they are, you

(10:47):
know, demon possessed orwhatever with, like, some of the
horror books we read becausethey could even be something
that's more amorphous similar towhat's that blue alien world?

Slava (10:58):
Avatar? Avatar.

Jonathan (11:00):
Yeah. The villain there is actually just the
military complex. So it's, like,not even a person. It's just a
thing. And that's similar towhat we have here with the Akura
clan where it's this big force,not necessarily a specific
being.
Sometimes authors use that. Idon't know if you wanna share
any examples from some of thehorror books that we've looked
at or other thoughts you have onthat.

Slava (11:21):
Well, I don't think the horror books we read have an
entity or a force as a villain.Right? Most of them are pretty
straightforward. It, Pennywise,is the villain.

Jonathan (11:37):
Mhmm.

Slava (11:37):
Head full of ghosts is the parents really kinda messing
things up.

Jonathan (11:42):
Was so frustrating.

Slava (11:43):
Yeah. In City in the City, you kinda have this good
the government entity. So there,that's a one. That's not a
horror book. That's aspeculative

Jonathan (11:53):
Yeah. Of fiction. I mean, it didn't need to be
horror specific. I just meant,like, other stuff we've read.

Slava (11:58):
Right. Right. So it'd be City in the City that comes to
mind right away because you havethe Breach. They're kind of the

Jonathan (12:05):
Yes. The Breach.

Slava (12:06):
They're kind of the villain, but not individual in
the Breach is this evil demonpossessed totally focused on
destruction. The entity itself,the organization that serves as
the villain in that story. Butthat's the only book that comes
to mind out of what we've readthat has a similar villain,

(12:28):
meaning that it's not a personwholly committed to destruction
or evil deeds, but serves as thevillain in the arc of the story.

Jonathan (12:39):
Yeah. One thing that I think we wanna touch on is
there's actually a few villainsin this book. So we have Okura.
That's, like, more of a macro,and then we also have the dread
gods, which are not at theforefront as a villain at the
moment, but they are a part ofthis. Right?
We've seen in the a couple booksprior to this, like, oh, the
dread gods are looming. One ofLindon's kind of main goals is

(13:02):
to stop the dread gods closestto Sacred Valley from destroying
it because he got a vision fromSerial if you remember book 1.
You can have competing villains,if you will. The thing is, like,
books are only so long, and youhave to give them screen time to
use a film term. And if youdon't give them screen time,
they kind of are out of sightout of mind.
For this book, because the Okurafamily, specifically, I'm

(13:25):
thinking about Charity, thesage, she's kinda got a vendetta
against Linden in particular toput his feet to the fire, if you
will, because he killed one ofher family members. She just
wants to see if he can repay herhis debt that he, doesn't know
he has. So Right. Anyway, that'sthat's a little bit about

(13:45):
villains where it's both simpleand complex, I think.

Slava (13:49):
And in a book like this, you have other microvillains. So
we're gonna use macro and microterms like you just did. Mhmm.
The guy who takes Lindon's arm.I forget his name.

Jonathan (14:00):
Zhai Chen. Zhai no. Yes. Zhai Chen?

Slava (14:04):
Yeah. That's Zhai Chen. That's someone that falls under
the villain category that Lindonencounters while the bigger
things are happening too. So thedread gods and the Abaddon and
the Kura faction, all of themare doing their thing, and we're
focused on Akura as the villainof the story specifically. But

(14:26):
there's these micro villainstoo, and the school that, Lindon
goes to and has to climb themountain.
Like, their people are complete.

Jonathan (14:38):
Villains as well?

Slava (14:39):
Villains towards Linden. His family, I wouldn't
necessarily call them villains,but his his Sacred Valley life,
the people who run his clan,they're villain ish because
they're just god awful people.

Jonathan (14:56):
I'd put his family into the antagonist role, not
necessarily villain.

Slava (15:01):
That's that's fair. Yeah. That's a good way of looking at
it.

Jonathan (15:04):
So a quick definition for folks. Villains are often
evil with malicious intent,whereas antagonists are simply
helping to create resistanceagainst the protagonist. Is that
clear enough?

Slava (15:19):
No. That's very clear. It's a good way of, of
dissecting it.

Jonathan (15:22):
Okay. Anyway, continue on with your, with your thought
there. Just wanted to insertthat to help us get a little
clarity in in the series thatwe're addressing.

Slava (15:31):
I think that covers it, but it's not all about villains
and antagonists. We also havementors and allies, and I think
the most clear ally that we seein the book is Mercy. She's
kindhearted. She's a skilledsacred artist from the Akura
clan, so that's kind of, youknow, a little bit of unexpected

(15:54):
what's the word I'm looking for?Not irony, but complexity adds
complexity to the story.
So she's from the Akura faction,which we just said is a villain,
but she as an individual actslike an ally to our hero and, I
was gonna say, Jasnah and Yaren.

Jonathan (16:12):
Nice. Very nice.

Slava (16:14):
That's what happens when you read 2 books at the same
time. It's true. She becomes afriend, an ally to Linden and
Yaron, but her personalitycontrasts with the fierce
training and competition aroundher because she even annoys
Yairin in some moments becauseshe's so cheery and bubbly,
which is fun. And hercompassion, her powerful

(16:34):
background, specifically, she'sfrom the Kura faction, which is
a pretty powerful faction inthis world, brings a softer
dynamic to the group, and thenit gives Yaron and Linden access
to knowledge that they might nothave because Ethan, he's off
doing his own thing in thismoment. So Mercy's here kinda

(16:55):
filling in the gap, and heralliance with the protagonist

Jonathan (17:00):
integrates them into the world of

Slava (17:02):
the Quirra clan so they have access to them. And then
there's where you get a moreflavorful story. Right? There
are just layers to it. It's notblack and white, and so that
makes this kind of story such afun read.
It's more realistic. It's morebelievable. There's even people

(17:23):
maybe on the Akura clan that youcan identify with and say, hey.
I've been this way, or Iunderstand why the Akura clan is
the way that they are because,oh, I watched this movie. I read
this book.
I've taken this class. I'velived this event in my life. You
can immerse yourself in thestory, and you find these little

(17:43):
gems that you identify with orhelp you think about the world
in a different way. I think thisparticular character, Mercy, and
what I just described as herbeing an ally, helps Will create
that kind of a world and tell astory where people, to your
point, want more. They want book13 and 14 and then maybe even,

(18:05):
you know, 22.

Jonathan (18:06):
It's true. We we want more. We haven't come up with a,
a slogan to chant yet, but butwe we want more. So Four more
books? What do we want?
Four more books. When do we wantthem? Today. Something. We'll
figure out a figure out a chantthere.
You and me. We'll just chant it,and people will go, what are you

(18:26):
guys talking about? We'll go,read the book.

Slava (18:29):
We can get the audience to do it. What would be a chant
that you would create if youwere to march down the streets
of your city demanding that WillWhite write more books in the
Cradle series? I I want that inthe comments.

Jonathan (18:42):
That's good. That's a good question. But keeping this
moving forward, I was gonnamention that it's fun to have
one of the allies be from thefamily of the villains we were
talking about. It adds a aunique contrast because you
wonder, like, is she on yourside? Is she not?
It's mixed with Mercy'spersonality that is so bubbly

(19:03):
and so friendly. I think we'veseen in other stories, at least
I have, that people who comefrom highly privileged status
lives, and they were raised, youknow, silver spoon, basically,
don't really get to have a lotof friends for better or worse.
That creates a dynamic where shewants to have friends. Everyone
should have friends. It's a goodthing to have friends because

(19:25):
she was so her status was theruling class she didn't really
get to.
Right? So it's a more uniquedynamic in literature, I think,
unless I'm misremembering thatthis is pretty common. I don't
think it is.

Slava (19:41):
I'm thinking of Romeo and Juliet, which is completely
different, but there's aprinciple of play that's kind of
the same where 2 kids fromopposing factions, opposing
families find something incommon. I think Mercy finds
something in common. There's anattachment that she has to

(20:03):
Lindon and Yerin and themselvesas persons and their story and
what they're going through.She's part of this world. She's
part of what's going on.
The drag gods and the Abaddonand everything that is going on
in this world, the overarchingstory of it. She's part of it,
and she finds something to latchon to in Lindon and Yerin. And

(20:25):
there is plenty of movies thatwe watched that tell a similar
story. I think the movie iscalled Night Watch. It's a movie
about a family of cops, JoaquinPhoenix.
He's not necessarily a full outcriminal, but he's on the side
of the villains, on the side ofthe criminals. Mhmm. And, again,

(20:45):
not analogous to the story, buthe's kinda on the outside, and
he has friends around him thathe is attached to even though
they're in opposition to hisfamily. And, again, it goes back
to the dynamic, layered, uniqueway of telling a story Mhmm.
Where Joaquin Phoenix is notjust a scumbag who has left the

(21:08):
his cop family and is just anoutright, you know, lowlife
criminal.
There's a unique layeredcharacter in him. So, again, not
analogous, but it's close. Thethe principle of telling those
kind of stories where you getmore robust characters, you get
characters that are not 2dimensional, that's a realistic

(21:31):
story. Right? A believablestory.
We've touched upon this a fewtimes in our discussions about
books. What makes a storybelievable? And I think stuff
like this does, and becauseMercy has favor with her family
too, I think the Acura clanwould trust her if she backed up

(21:52):
Linden and Yerin. Now whether ornot they would take her
suggestions and go with it rightaway, no, but she is in both
worlds, and it creates tensionwith her family a little bit,
and it gives Linden and Yaronsome reprieve on the other end
of it, and it has the accessthat they have now to the

(22:14):
knowledge she has. So it's thismulticolored kaleidoscope of a
story that is created, whetherit's the movies I just mentioned
or this book specifically.

Jonathan (22:26):
Well, so I wanna challenge one thing. I don't
feel like they get a lot ofbenefit from the Akura family
from Mercy's position thereuntil the end of this book where
Mercy's like, hey, mother. Iwill, you know, concede. I'll
come back to the family,whatever. Blah blah blah.
Then she's like, okay. And thenher mom's about to leave, and

(22:49):
she she's like, wait. Are younot gonna take me? And she's
like, I thought you hadunfinished business here. And
she's like, okay.
Alright. I get to go solve theproblem for my friends real
quick, even though I'vecommitted to, like, leaving
them. Until that happens, Idon't really feel like they get
the benefit. And maybe I'mbeing, nitpicky. And if I am,
just throw it back at me.

(23:09):
But I don't think that Mercy'shelp really starts to flourish.
It's it's certainly for, is is ahelp that she gets to know about
Night Wheel Valley and where togo for things. That's good. The
actual dynamic with the familyitself, I don't think takes
place until later at the end ofthis book, in my opinion.

Slava (23:32):
There's nothing to throw back. I think it's just looking
at the same thing from adifferent perspective. Right?
The benefits that they get, inmy opinion, is the knowledge
that Mercy has, which Imentioned earlier. Mhmm.
And because they're friends witha person in the Kura family
who's technically the villainhere, because they're friends

(23:53):
with her, that's some protectionthat they receive whether they
realize it or not, and Mercyfrom my reading

Jonathan (24:03):
Mhmm.

Slava (24:03):
And you read the whole thing. I only read up to this
book. From my reading of Mercy,she seems genuine in her love
for Lindon and Yaron.

Jonathan (24:15):
Oh, she's genuine. Sorry. Maybe I misunderstood. I
was talking about sorry. Keepgoing.

Slava (24:20):
So there is this buffer, for lack of a better term, that
Yaron and Linden have because ofMercy's allegiance to them or
her respect and love for them.She won't be just like, well,
mom says to kill them both.Right. She will try to protect
them. And the other benefit thatI mentioned before is whatever

(24:43):
she knows is probably greater,at least what Linda knows.
Right? Yaron might might knowmore stuff, but their mentor is
not with them right now. AndMercy's there not only helping
them fight, she's on their side.She's protecting them, and
because she has the knowledgethat the Kura faction has, she

(25:04):
can provide insight during abattle, during a a brainstorming
session that they have to figure

Jonathan (25:09):
out, well, k. Well, what do we

Slava (25:10):
do next?

Jonathan (25:11):
Brainstorming session.

Slava (25:12):
Like, they're sitting down. They're figuring out their
next steps. They have the addedbenefit of having somebody like
Mercy from the core faction withthem.

Jonathan (25:22):
Fair enough. Fair enough. Let's shift over to the
antihero discussion for just acouple minutes because he's one
of my favorite characters, andthen if you want to, we can talk
about the deuteragonist or wecan move on. But the antihero in
Cradle would be Orthos. Orthosis from the Black Dragon family,

(25:46):
fully cynical.
I think I've referenced him as acurmudgeon before. He's
sometimes begrudging with hisCompanionship? Companionship
works. I was gonna say soul soulbinding. This is, like, not a
good sentence.
What is it? He he his his soulcontract, that's the word that I
wanna he's a little bit grudgingwith Lyndon and his sole

(26:06):
contract sometimes, but he isdeeply loyal and has a lot of
wisdom because he's so old forLyndon in the midst of Lyndon's
growth. And so even though he'snot necessarily the mentor the
way that Ethan's the mentor,Orthos offers guidance to Lindon
as well as pushes him back. Andhe has all these great one

(26:28):
liners, like, a dragon doesthis, a dragon does that,
etcetera, etcetera, which isYeah. Fun.
It offers a little comic relief,a little bit of realism, and
also keeps Lindon in line whenhe's being skittish and not
growing into his fullest self inthe progression fantasy theme
that he lives in. And so Ireally love Orthos and his

(26:51):
antihero tendencies. Oh, I justrealized. I didn't dis define
antihero. Do would you minddoing that real quick, Slava?
I went on just, like, this wholetirade, but I wanted I should've
should've defined it before Istarted talking about

Slava (27:03):
it. Yeah. I would love to. I want to bring to attention
that you also referencedStormlight Archives while trying
to describe the soul the soul,contract. You said soul binding,
which I think you are

Jonathan (27:24):
Surge binding?

Slava (27:25):
Yeah. That was a that was a thing.

Jonathan (27:28):
There's a lot of stuff in my head, Slava. A lot of
fantasy world building.

Slava (27:35):
That's a

Jonathan (27:36):
Yeah. That's a scientific term for

Slava (27:39):
stuff. So an antihero is a central character in a story
that lacks conventional heroicattributes. The the one I would
say works here is idealism. He'snot really an idealistic dragon.
Right?

Jonathan (27:57):
True? Very true. Orthos, my go to little turtle.

Slava (28:02):
Good old Orthos. I think we can talk about the
deuteragonist. Deuteragonist?Yeah. We can talk about the
deuteragonist just brieflybecause I mentioned, like, Robin
and Batman.
Upon reflection, maybe that's aa weak analogy. How would you
see Yaron fulfilling that role?Because she's skilled. She's

(28:23):
strong. She's even stronger thanLindon.
Without her, Linden wouldn't getto where he is, so it's not
really a Batman and Robinsituation. But she is a fellow
protagonist. Her goals alignwith Linden's. She has her own
personal struggles especiallyregarding her master's legacy,

(28:44):
and her personal journey in arelationship with Lyndon add
more to the plot. Yeah.
She's she's fierce andindependent on her own, but she
also balances Linden's ambitionin keeping him grounded like
Orthos does, but also pushinghim like Orthos does, and her
loyalty is part of the strengthof this group's dynamic. So

(29:08):
maybe you can correct my Batmanand Robin analogy and give a
better one.

Jonathan (29:13):
Well, there's not a lot of stories that come to
mind, but the first one tryingto find a better analogy or a
better comparison would be Jeanfrom the Lies of Locke Lamora,
where Locke is the maincharacter, but Jean is the
second main character. And we'vewe see this more in book 2 than

(29:34):
book 1 because book 1 has a lotmore characters in it. But book
2, because a bunch of thosecharacters passed away or or
left, Jean is still around. Andso he, to me, would be a
deuteragonist in comparison to,you know, Lindon and Yaren
because we meet Yaren in book 1.White starts this off where

(29:54):
their journey begins together.
I would even say that Sam isalmost a deuteragonist for Frodo
because he also starts rightafter Frodo starts to go on the
journey in Lord of the Rings.

Slava (30:05):
I like the Locke and John comparison much better than
Robin and Robin.

Jonathan (30:10):
Yeah. Oh, I thought you were just referencing the
fact that you really liked theLiza Locke Lamora, but that
works too.

Slava (30:16):
I really, really I really like the Liza Locke Lamora. On
some of my social mediaplatforms, my bio or about line
says nice bird asshole.

Jonathan (30:27):
There it is. I was gonna say, let me guess. I don't
have to because I knew thatthat's what it would be. Slava
still sometimes will just sendme that in a text. No no like,
we haven't talked all day orwhatever, and he'll just just
boom.
Nice bird asshole. Cool. I don'tknow what we're talking about,
but that sounds great.

Slava (30:45):
That's a little, peek into how my broken humor works.

Jonathan (30:50):
Yes. Yes. It is. We've been sitting on characters and
types for a minute, but, well,we hope that that opens up and
lets you start thinking aboutthe different types of heroes
that you've seen in otherstories that you like and how
that affects the the plot andthe character development.

Slava (31:06):
So what you're saying, Jonathan, is just take a little
side quest.

Jonathan (31:09):
I think that that's a great idea.

Slava (31:10):
Okay. Well, I got an idea for a side quest. So last
episode, we came up with our ownpath and what we would practice.
Mhmm. This episode, I want totalk about what would be the
weaknesses over sacred art path.
Yeah.

Jonathan (31:28):
Sticking with the progression fantasy. Alright.
Ah, yes. Okay. Have you alreadygiven this some thought, or or
do you need a second as well?

Slava (31:36):
I've given it some thought. I'll go first, and then
I'll let you jump in afterwards.

Jonathan (31:40):
Okay. Alright. Alright.

Slava (31:42):
So last episode, we talked that I would be a
practitioner of the forger'sflame. I didn't say what my path
would be. It would be the pathof the mind's eye, and this
would be a journey focused oninsight. Practitioners of this
path seek to understand theworld around them because, you
know, I'm a researcher and allthat stuff, so that fits in. On
some level, it goes beyond justsight.

(32:02):
These guys hone in their sensesto perceive hidden layers,
anticipate outcomes, and connectseemingly unrelated elements.
Again, goes back to my strategybecause I'm a digital
strategist, so I've been doingMhmm. Marketing and digital
strategy. And through rigorousmental discipline, cultivators
of this path learn to analyze,predict, and even influence

(32:23):
their environment by turningclarity of mind into practical
strategic power. It's likereading my job description.
So I practice the fordish flame.That's what we talked about last
episode, and this is an innerspark that allows them to turn
perception into creation. Butwhat my weakness would be, at

(32:44):
least I think my weakness wouldbe, is sensory overload. That
would be a vulnerability.Despite the adaptness at reading
the surroundings, a major risk Isee in this path is where
there's too much sensory inputcan cloud or distort perception.
So against opponents who usethis technique, the flood of
senses, like biting light,disorienting sounds, conflicting

(33:08):
auras, mind's eye practitioners,my fellow practitioners may
struggle to focus as, and thisis true in my life, As their
sharpened perception makes themmore susceptible to distraction.
As great as a researcher as Iam, I am very much easily

(33:29):
distracted. Just not good in afight with, you know, the Quora
clan.

Jonathan (33:34):
Well, not only that. I was thinking about the, the path
of the white fox where theirwhole shtick is illusions. That
might be an issue for you.

Slava (33:46):
Yep. Because then you get lost in your own illusion, or
you're so busy buildingillusions that you don't see a a
sword coming at your throat.Mhmm. Mhmm.

Jonathan (33:55):
So let's remember this conversation for I wanna say
it's book 10, because I wannacome back to this. So definitely
feel free to remind me guys inthe comments as we get to book
10. May might might be 9. I'm,can't remember. Yeah.
Remember remind me when whenthese are coming up. That was
enough time for me to think alittle bit. My path from last

(34:17):
episode was the path of the everexpanding horizon, which focuses
on growth, adaptability, andvision, and the drive and desire
to surpass limitations, seek newknowledge, refine themselves
continually. Also highlystrategic, see opportunities in
any situation. The people inthis path are known for their

(34:38):
resilience and innovation.
So I figured I'd have noweaknesses. Right? Because
that's that's how you do that.That strategy is meant to help
you prevent and derisk things.However, a little similar to
what you said, Slava, because ofmy dependence on insight and

(34:59):
awareness, and, like, seeingopponents or sorry, seeing
opportunities and sensingthreats through one of my
techniques of insightful gaze.
If an opponent could obscure ormisdirect me with illusions at a
high level, it could be aserious threat to me. The other
thing that I thought of wasactually 2 things. So the first

(35:20):
thing is if I have an opponentthat is just extremely strong
with direct attacks or immensedurability, that would be
difficult for me because thoseare not my strengths. My
strengths are playing toosimilar to Linden, like, using
what I have and adapting asopposed to, like, doing brute
force strength. Someone who'sbrute force strength like a
Yaren, I would have trouble withprobably because she's so fast

(35:42):
and strong.
And then the other piece that Ithought about was one of the
techniques I mentioned, I think,was resonance pulse or brand of
influence where I rely heavilyon affecting others through
influence, but the vulnerabilitythere for me would be facing
opponents who have a strongmental fortitude. I've actually
seen this in my day to day lifewhere sometimes when I'm trying

(36:03):
to influence someone who's justso strong willed and set in
their ways, it's actually quitedifficult to influence them
toward the things that you'reyou're desiring. That actually
is a big phone vulnerabilitybecause sometimes you have to
convince your stakeholders thatthey should go a direction, and
they're like, I'm not gonna dothat. And you go, well, these
will be the consequences. Andthey're like, I don't believe in

(36:24):
consequences.
Okay. Well, that's great. Andthen, you know, time goes on.
You did what they said, andthey're like, why did this
happen? And, well, I told youthat there are risks and
consequences, like but I don'tbelieve in consequences.
This is your fault. Okay. Wellbut we don't have to talk about

(36:45):
my day to day work.

Slava (36:46):
Correct. That is pretty spot on in how our day to day
jobs play out.

Jonathan (36:52):
So much. So so much.

Slava (36:53):
But what do you say we talk about some literary
devices? We touched upon themlast episode kind of
sporadically, I think, and weknocked some of them out without
even really thinking about it orplanning. Like, I think the
internal monologues and thestruggles that Yaron faces and
and Linden faces, we talkedabout that, so we covered some

(37:16):
literary devices. But what aresome that stood out? There's
foreshadowing symbolism, irony,flashbacks, metaphors, all all
those good things.
Why why don't you give us,dealer's choice? You're the
dealer right now. Give us 2 or 3to unpack from the story.

Jonathan (37:31):
Well, the first one that, to me, kinda sticks out is
this plot line of Charity tryingto take revenge on Lindon by
influencing the Seishan clan togo after him a little bit. She
didn't directly say that. Andthen Lindon having to also level
up at the moment, Charity beingable to benefit if he survives

(37:53):
and if he dies, which feels likea juxtaposing idea for Lindon if
we're following just him, hissurvival and trying to save
Sacred Valley and, like, thestuff that he's doing. It's an
antithesis because she wants totake revenge on him, but
inevitably, it just makes himstronger, which then she can

(38:14):
use, but I think she also wouldhave been very satisfied if he
died. At least that's my takebased on the way that she's
acting, both with the other clanshe empowers, even at the end
where she is gonna put somepressure on him when she
recruits him to the team, theAkura team, to to represent them
in the Uncrowned Kingtournament.
So it's kind of a selfjuxtaposed place to be, in my

(38:36):
opinion, with Charity herselfputting a lot of pressure on
Lyndon, but that inevitablymaking him stronger.

Slava (38:43):
That seems like something that Lyndon faces from other
folks too. The that's a veryspecific example Yeah. And, you
know, for the antithesis, butthere's constantly pressures
that Lyndon faces that force himto work outside his comfort
zone, to not just sit here andgo, well, I have what I have,
and I'm gonna do my best withwhat I have, but he has this

(39:06):
drive and desire to becomebetter and stronger to save his
clan. It's one of the otherforces that is placed upon
Linden by White that helps himunderstand his world better,
grow, mature. Maybe he lives toher detriment, but what she does
actually helps him advance.

Jonathan (39:26):
I wanna pause for a second before I pick another one
of these. How far do you thinkLyndon gets to go?

Slava (39:32):
Oh, that's a good question. If if I'm to believe
that Ethan wants to go to theend of the sacred arts

Jonathan (39:41):
Uh-huh.

Slava (39:42):
And if Flynn is along for the ride and he's gonna be taken
on this journey of advancement,I don't see any issues of him
becoming a monarch.

Jonathan (39:51):
Okay. Okay.

Slava (39:53):
Right now, he's under lord. And what there's only a
few levels above him. Right?

Jonathan (39:58):
It's underlord, overlord, archlord, and then oh,
I can't remember the next ones.

Slava (40:05):
Alright. So there's more.

Jonathan (40:07):
There's more. There's more. Yeah.

Slava (40:08):
Okay. So maybe he gets to one of those. That's why you
want more because there's morefor Linden to do. Because if he
reaches monarch, well, right,he's the king Poohbah right
right at that moment.

Jonathan (40:21):
The king Poohbah.

Slava (40:23):
It's another sacred art path. Yeah. Okay. I definitely
think he's gonna go through 2 or3 more advancements, but I don't
think my guess of him becoming amonarch is far fetched. I think
he can get to it because we have6 more books, and he's advanced
really quickly, twice in somebooks.

Jonathan (40:41):
Do you think that he advances too quickly?

Slava (40:43):
No. I think the nature of the story, the nature of the
book, the genre, his advancementmakes sense for the genre.

Jonathan (40:50):
Yeah. Fair enough. I also did a quick correction for
myself. So it is Underlord,Overlord, Archlord, and then it
is sort of Monarch. However,there are 2 side step or, like,
side tier categories as well.
There's sage and herald. We'veseen sages. We haven't really

(41:11):
seen heralds yet from what Irecall. You can be a sage, but
not be a monarch, and you can bea monarch and not be a sage.
It's kind of like one of the 3,sort of.
That's also, like, not a goodexplanation either.

Slava (41:23):
Okay.

Jonathan (41:24):
I think Drost says it really well at the beginning of
this book somewhere. He's like,when Lindon is trying to figure
out how to create soulfire andbecome underlord and whatever,
and Dross is like, oh, Iremember all the details, but
let's just listen to Aethen andfigure out what he says to make
sure he says it right. And thenLindon is like, that's kinda
weird. And then Dross sayssomething like, the rest of the
the rest of figuring out thesacred arts is very weird, which

(41:45):
I think is just White's kind ofkitschy, like, elbow jab in the
ribs. Like, it's not gonna makesense, but it will make sense.

Slava (41:52):
Kinda like what Jasnah tells, Shallan in Words of
Radiance when she's talkingabout Shadesmar, and Jasnah is
explaining what she knows aboutthe realm. Shallan's response
was, I don't understand whatyou're talking about. I'm
paraphrasing. How am I supposedto understand any of it? And
Jasna says, you're not.
I've started this for 6 years,and I barely know anything about

(42:15):
it. So Mhmm. It'll take sometime for you to to understand
what Shadesmar is and how weaccess it and what it means that
we have this world that's aroundus, but not really perceptible
to, you know, the basic senses.Anyway, that's me going into a

(42:35):
different world.

Jonathan (42:36):
Book. That's me hopping world.

Slava (42:38):
That's me hopping worlds.

Jonathan (42:39):
With a world hopper over there.

Slava (42:41):
Yeah. Look at me.

Jonathan (42:42):
I'd say the second thing that comes to mind
initially is kind of the ironyof where Lind is at versus where
he's been. Like, the book startswith him as an unsold, which is
a person with no path, no power,no future. He is basically the
cripple in his family and histribe, and he's a joke because

(43:03):
he keeps getting older and can'tfight 6 year olds, and he's,
like, 16 because they're morepowerful than he is mixed with,
you know, the irony and thecontrast of, okay. He's about to
become Underlord. Now he wouldjust have to look at one of
these 6 year olds incorrectly,and they'll die.
So Right. Definitely the irony.And I think that's pretty clear,
or I think that's a pretty cleartrope in progression fantasy

(43:26):
books or progression focusedbooks because you have to get
stronger. That's the wholegenre.

Slava (43:32):
You know? For somebody like Lindon, he will undoubtedly
progress farther than people whoare taking it slow and steady.
They know that they have a soul.They know that they have a path,
and they're working towardsbecoming whatever the hell they
need to be. Like, for his clan,it's I think, Jade is as far as
it goes.

(43:53):
And so they're on a steady path,but for Linden, he is forced
because the stakes are higherfor him. He is forced to do
double, triple the work, so it'snatural that he will advance
beyond them eventually.

Jonathan (44:07):
That reminds me of a quote. So being forced to
advance or being at odds or or,you know, back against the wall
as your position, in my opinion,and I think I've kind of alluded
to this, maybe even spoken aboutdirectly, that is the best place
to grow because you don't havean option. And the quote that it

(44:28):
reminds me of is Sun Tzu in TheArt of War has this concept of
death ground where soldiers haveno option but to fight for
survival because it actuallytaps into something a little
more primal than they initiallydo because it's like, well,
there is no other option. Theoption is survive. And when you
get something when you when youboil down your existence to, if

(44:49):
I don't do this task, I'm goingto die, most the time, you can
tap into, I guess, I'd call itlevels of the subconscious that
are there but are not accessiblefrom a conscious realm, you push
forward.
He says, in one spot, when youare on death ground, you fight.
At another spot, he encouragesgenerals, throw your soldiers

(45:10):
into positions from which thereis no escape, and they will
prefer death to fight. If theyface death, there's nothing they
may not achieve. If they survivethis death ground, they will be
so elated with their achievementthat they overcame, it will
actually create even more of adrive, a stronger fire within

(45:32):
them. And I think we see this inLindon's life.
I don't know if I can give WillWhite credit for, like, thinking
ahead and, like, doing this. Ittruly just unfolded for Lindon
in his character arc that Willwrote as he was dreaming up this
this storyline.

Slava (45:48):
If you think about the soldiers that were dropped in
the western front in World War1,

Jonathan (45:53):
you

Slava (45:53):
know, the trench warfare Mhmm. I think the ones that
survived, that wasn't about thecause, if you will. I think it
was, I just need to survive. Nowyou can fast forward to World
War 2, and there was definitelymore of a a cost to the fighting
for the allies, and there was,like, this honor and the right

(46:14):
thing to do mentality. If Ithink about some of the
Americans who are fighting inthe Indo Pacific in the jungles,
yeah, maybe they joined becausethey wanted to stop Russia and
Germany at that point, morespecifically, and the Japanese.
In a thick of it, I don't thinkanybody's, you know, remembering

(46:35):
the speech that their generalgave before they landed. Right?
They're thinking about survival.So the gamut of that experience,
whether it's just pure survivalbecause you were just
conscripted and thrown into thewestern front or you joined up
because you have a sense of dutyand honor to fight for your

(46:56):
country or to get revengeagainst the Japanese, whatever
that looks like for theindividual, in the thick of the
fight, it's only survival.

Jonathan (47:07):
Yeah. There's one more example that comes to mind, and
I think it was in RobertGreene's 48 laws of strategy, 38
laws of strategy. I'm trying toremember how many strategy. I I
can't remember the name of thebook at the moment, but he gives
us example of the I wanna sayit's a Spanish conquistadors.

(47:27):
Sorry.
It's 33 Strategies of War, Ibelieve is is what it's called.
He's got numbers in a lot of hisbooks. Yeah. It's 33 Strategies
of War. Yes.
I'm correct. Okay. And he talksabout the Spanish conquistadors
when they landed in LatinAmerica, and I think it was Cuba
specifically, actually, or itcould have been well, it doesn't
matter. They landed somewhere.And I wanna say the leader of

(47:49):
the expedition was Vasquez,maybe?
And he was having trouble withhis his soldiers and
subordinates not reallycommitting to the cause of the
conquering that they had set outfor. And so his decision, and
and Greene kind of unpacks this,and he quotes Sun Tzu's death
ground, is one night Vasquezwent and burned the boats.

(48:12):
There's no going home. We'rehere. That's it.
And Yeah. That actually changedthe tide for the motivation for
his soldiers. They were nothappy, understandably so because
it's like, okay. Now you're justhere to survive or you'll die
here. There is no going home.
It's just moving forward.There's a quote behind me that I

(48:35):
think of often from Dalinar fromStormlight Archives because you
were talking about a minute ago.The most important step a man
can take is the next one. So isthe next one. And that's the
same thing to me as death groundwhere it's like, you have oh,
actually, I'm I'm thinking of 2different quotes.
The one behind me is if I if Imust fall, I will rise a better
man, but the concept is thesame. I will rise each time a

(48:58):
better man. Actually, if I getit right, I'm gonna get comment
hate mail comments. It's thisidea of, like, you have to move
forward. Time is ever movingforward.
At the end of the day, 4 yearsare gonna go go by, and you're
gonna be 4 years older. So youcan either do something today to
make that self of 4 years fromnow have more skills or more
talent or whatever, or you canburn 4 years of comfort, which a

(49:20):
lot of people do. And they're,like, older, and they have
nothing to show for it. All thatto say, I somehow started with
irony and ended on Sun Tzu andRobert Greene, and I've I've
gotten lost on a side quest andneed a little help.

Slava (49:33):
Well, that's fine. I think this is a perfect time to
move on. But if you guys areenjoying this side quest, you
can show your support by sharingthis episode with a fellow book
clubbing friend because,Jonathan, I think this is your
quote. Every journey is betterwith friends.

Jonathan (49:51):
Let's keep this casual book club growing to maybe use a
little Lord of the Ringslanguage. Let's make the
fellowship bigger. How aboutthat?

Slava (50:00):
There you go. I like it. I like it. So thanks for
listening, but let's dive backinto today's quest. Another
choice for the dealer, alsoknown as John.
Nothing because he hates beingcalled John. Just in case
anybody wants to comment, alwaysadd Jonathan, otherwise he will
find you and complain.

Jonathan (50:20):
I'll treat you like charity treats, Linden.

Slava (50:22):
That's right. Let's talk about, like, a big event from
our perspective. Like, what's aa thing that happened in the
book that was how do I say this?That was the thought that came
to me was, like, that wasmonumental in your enjoyment,
but that sounds so pretentious.Just an event in the book.
Yeah. This is

Jonathan (50:39):
a casual book club, Slava. No pretentiousness here
except for me quoting Sun Tzuand Robert Greene.

Slava (50:46):
What's an event that's worthy of a main quest for us?

Jonathan (50:51):
Some of the stuff that I always like is kind of
scratching under the surface. Ilove the moment we talked about
earlier where Orthos leaves thegroup, which was super sad. Then
we get the reveal near the endof the book where he ends up
going to find Wei Shi Kelso,Lindon's sister, and we're like,
oh, man. This is great. He'sgonna help her out, and we also

(51:12):
see that there's a bunch ofturmoil in Sacred Valley now.
And it's just a reminder becausewe've been so far away from
Sacred Valley for basically book2, book 3, book 4, book 5, and
book 6. We haven't even reallytalked about Sacred Valley.
There have been, like, a couplelittle moments here and there,
but this to me is, like, a quickreminder of, like, hey. This all

(51:33):
started from Sacred Valley.Linden still cares about his
family even though they wereterrible to him.
Orthos, because they have a solecontract, knows that, and so he
goes to basically help pave theway, and maybe he'll train Wai
Shikelsa to become an underlord.Who knows?

Slava (51:51):
Interesting. For me, it was definitely Yaren's lifeline
crisis and her need to reachunder Lord where she almost dies

Jonathan (52:02):
in the book.

Slava (52:03):
To me, that is, the one that stands out. So Yaren's
severe injury, which damages herlifeline, she's forced to
confront her mortality. To be tosave herself, she must advance
to Underlord, and this is aprocess that requires not only
strength but personal insight toresolve itself, which is the

(52:24):
whole shtick to this genre. Ithink why it's important and why
it stood out to me, itencapsulates this series'
emphasis on inner growth as arequirement for advancement and
cultivation. This point in thebook, although I mentioned her
growing in her affections forLinden and her growing as a

(52:46):
person in previous books, thisis a turning point that pushes
her to reconcile her fear ofisolation, the fear of losing
Linden.
Coming to grips with hermortality, I think, adds more
depth to to her motivations.It's a part of the book that I
had an emotional response to. Iwas like, oh, wow. Is this what

(53:09):
Jonathan meant when he said thatYaron might leave in a couple of
books? That bastard told me hewas she was gonna leave, and
what he meant was she's dead.
So this moment in the book andin the series as a whole is
where I had a very strongemotional response. Her quest to
reach under Lord, I kinda saw asa parallel to her desire to

(53:31):
remain close to Lindon andmaintain their shared path, or
maybe it's the maybe it's thereversed where because she wants
to remain with Linden, shedoesn't wanna be alone, and she
has loved the journey so far.She feels a connection to this
group, this motley crew, if youwill, and so she has this desire

(53:54):
to survive just like we talkedabout a few minutes ago, and to
me that event by itself stoodout from everything else. I I
thought that was a fantastic,fantastic portion of the story.
I think I mentioned this lastepisode, but it's worth
mentioning again because this isthe thing for me in this book
that was the most fun to read.

Jonathan (54:17):
Can you dive into that and unpack it a little more for
us? Like, why was this sotouching for you? What is it
about her that you reallyattached to as just as a
reminder? And then how do youthink that this plays out on a
global scale in terms of, like,we see Ethan bring her specific

(54:38):
cultivated food to try to help,you know, when this struggle's
going on? You know, do you thinkthat this will be something that
Mercy can help with later?

Slava (54:49):
The first part is easy to answer. I identify with Yerin
because of her spunk. She'ssarcastic. She's spunky. She's
able to survive on her own.
She's kinda made her own path.She doesn't really give a crap
about what people think abouther. She has a goal in mind, and
she goes for it. And that is howI see myself. My life has not

(55:15):
been easy, and this is not atherapy session.
I'm not gonna bore people withmy story. Maybe. Those listeners
who have been with us from thebeginning know a little bit
about, my life, and the reason Ithink I was able to survive my
childhood was because I camewith an f u attitude. Some

(55:39):
people fight, some people fight,some people, you know, kinda
fall into themselves, somepeople go into insane coping
mechanisms, and by that I meando they do drugs or they live,
you know, a life that's selfdestructive, which often
includes drugs. But for me,Yaron's persistence in her

(56:01):
survival and her resolve, that'swhat I resonate with because I
feel as I look back at my life,that's the only thing, the f you
attitude, and I just gotta dowhat I have to do.
I have to get to the next pointin my life whether it's leaving
the house, whether it's findinga job that allows me to leave
the house and allows me to leavethe chaos and the abuse, that

(56:24):
drive accompanied with thesarcasm and, you know, kinda
grumpiness of Erin that I love,that's what attaches me to her.
Mhmm. And so when she's dying orI think she might die, that
invoked that emotional response.Yeah. That's good.
To your second question, if youcan restate it, how does her

(56:46):
survival impact the rest of thestory?

Jonathan (56:49):
Yeah. What do you think that her survival, both in
terms of, like, her friendstrying to help her, and do you
think that there's still aweakness that resolves even
though she got to Underlord atthe end of the book that she'll
need to? Because there's 2things that are going she's got
a multistage struggle. Like,yes, she has a a lifeline issue,
but that was actuallyexacerbated by the fact that she

(57:10):
has a blood shadow who's suckingon her lifeline anyway. And so,
like, okay.
She got to Underlord, but shestill has a blood shadow issue.

Slava (57:20):
Right.

Jonathan (57:20):
So Okay. So 2 part question, 2 part answer. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.

Slava (57:24):
The first part, I think, and we'll find out in book 7,
but I think this is another stepin her growth as a character.
Because she saw her friends cometogether and try to help her
survive, did help her survive,she will be more confident in

(57:46):
their reciprocity and theirloyalty towards her. So some of
that fear that she has of beingalone and losing people might be
abated or satiated, not a 100%,but I think this event where she
saw her friends come togetherand rally around her will help

(58:10):
her grow in that aspect. Now thesecond part of the question
about the blood shadow, yes,she's under Lord. She'll have
more control of it, but I don'tthink, this is Slava guessing, I
don't think book 7 or 8 maybewill see a resolution to that.
There might be more control thatshe gets of her blood shadow.

(58:31):
There might be a way that shemaybe even gets rid of the blood
shadow, but I don't think that'shappening in the next book
despite how fast some of thecharacter arcs and how fast some
of the advancements for thecharacters happen in this book.
I think that's one of thosethings that Will will keep with
her for a while because it'llalways be, like, a crucible of

(58:51):
testing, if I can use a fancyterm

Jonathan (58:54):
Yeah.

Slava (58:54):
For her. Right? So that's my answer. Interesting. And you
can correct me or guide me orconfuse me because you like to
do that too.

Jonathan (59:03):
No. That's fine. Was it last book that the blood
shadow, Yerin's talking to it?Yeah. And she goes, blah blah
blah blah.
When I say bark, you bark. Andthen the blood shadow just
replies with, woof. Is that lastbook?

Slava (59:22):
I think so. It has to be last book. It wasn't the
previous one.

Jonathan (59:26):
Yeah. It wasn't this one. Right? Yeah.

Slava (59:27):
And it wasn't this one.

Jonathan (59:28):
Yeah. Okay. So it's just interesting. Right? It's
it's it's, intriguing even wouldbe a a better a better way
where, like, the blood shadow, Ithink, is at this crossroads, I
guess, where it feels like itcould be a big ally, but Yaren
sees it as an enemy.
It could be an ally, or it couldbe maybe just biding its time to

(59:51):
take revenge on Yaren and andtake it Yeah. Take her her
lifeline. So it's kind of, tome, also a teetering between the
life and death moment. Less nowbecause she's an underlord, but
it's still not dealt with. And,also, Ethan hasn't really given
her I mean, he definitely gaveher a gift, that he was saving

(01:00:12):
for her, but he hasn't reallyfound a solution to help her
solve the problem per se, whichI think is a little surprising
to us because Ethan kinda has anuncanny ability to get whatever
he needs when he needs it withinreason.
Although within reason isprobably, like, ironic because
he's

Slava (01:00:30):
It's not reasonable. Yeah.

Jonathan (01:00:31):
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So, anyway, yeah.
Yaren, I I excited to see whathappens with her, especially as
we start to see sort of aconvergence between the personal
struggles that each of thesecharacters has had and the
universal stakes that aregrowing with dread gods and

(01:00:52):
monarchs getting involved andfactions. Next book, Unground
King Tournament, is actuallygoing to be another step in
fulfillment from the originalvision that Serial saw for the
future that she showed Linden,because we're gonna see some of
the clans or groups that Lindengot to see. The 8 cloud or no.

(01:01:12):
No. It's the the it's like therainbow cloud empire and the 8
crew group clan.
I'm slaughtering these names,but there's there's a bunch of
them that he saw in book 1 inthe vision that they will be at
the tournament. We will finallyget to see another step forward
in terms of, like, oh, we'veseen these folks before even

(01:01:33):
though it was just in a, like, avery short paragraph future
vision type ordeal.

Slava (01:01:39):
Yeah. I'm all looking forward to that.

Backtracking a little bit. Did you have any reactions
when Ethan split the teams upwhere Linden and Mercy went off
when they were in the NightWheel Valley, and then he and
Orthos and Yering went off?

Slava (01:01:52):
Not really. I just thought Ethan being Ethan, he
has some sort of plan in place,and this is subterfuge or
something like that, but Ididn't react to it in the moment
going like, oh, what is this?And I didn't think about it
beyond, ah, okay. Well, that'sEthan. Here here we go.

Mhmm.

Slava (01:02:13):
I guess I thought something might happen, but
nothing, like, grand came tofruition. Nothing extraordinary.
So I was like, oh, okay. Hesplit them up. That's just part
of Ethan's little, machinations.
He's read Robert Green's bookon, you know, 33 rules of
screwing with your team as youbuild them into monarchs, and

(01:02:35):
there we go.

Fair enough. Fair enough. I thought you were gonna
say something about, Mercy andLinden, like, finally holding
hands or confessing their lovefor one another.

Slava (01:02:46):
Yeah. I'm still on the fence as to my, you know, Slavic
guesses

Mhmm.

Slava (01:02:55):
What happens between the 3 of them, you know,
romantically. Linden, Yerin, andMercy. If I remember correctly,
my prediction in the verybeginning was that and this is
based again on you telling methat Yaron leaves. Linden would
somehow fall for Mercy. Mhmm.
But now that Mercy is back withher family, I don't see that as

(01:03:19):
an immediate option unless hegrows, advances, and somehow she
falls for him, and then, youknow, her mom has to be like,
oh, come on. Right? Like, notnot this. I thought I was trying
to get revenge on this stupidkid, and now he's dating my
daughter. Mhmm.

So I

Slava (01:03:34):
I can kinda see that happening, but the little moment
where Yaron is dying or almostdying or maybe this was after
she got better where Linden seesher, like, half naked, and he
they both kinda have this, like,weird teenage reaction. I was
like, okay. Oh, maybe not Mercy.

It's all he needed was a little little slip of the nip.

Slava (01:03:58):
There you go. That's it's a 17 year old boy or a 20 year
old man. Whatever. That's prettymuch the same. 3 years don't
make that much of a difference.

Especially when you're Linden.

Slava (01:04:08):
Especially when you're Linden. So I'm still on the
fence about my prediction herebecause I'm not reading ahead.
I'm not doing any research likeI've done with Stormlight
Archives. Mhmm. This is solelybook at a time.
I'm waiting until the next bookis in the schedule. And because
of what I described a fewminutes ago about me thinking in

(01:04:30):
a moment that Eriny leaving isher dying, well, I know that's
not the truth now. If you saidit, it means she does leave at
some point, like Orthos hasleft. Does she leave because of
Mercy, or does she leave becausethe feelings for Linda are too
strong? Who knows?
So She

could also just fall into the trap that she is
convinced. You know how somecharacters, like, become
convinced of their own lies orbeliefs?

Slava (01:04:55):
Yeah.

Even though that's not true for other people, they just
act on them, that's anotherpossibility.

Slava (01:04:59):
Okay. I'm looking forward to what happens there. I know
it's kinda silly, but I I amactually looking forward to if
there is a romantic arc betweenLindon and Yerin.

Mhmm.

Slava (01:05:11):
It could be something where, like, oh, they're young.
They have these feelings. Theydon't know what to do with them,
but eventually it just growsinto a stronger and stronger
friendship, or it could be thefriendship that it is now that
grows into a romanticrelationship. But as I say that,
I'm not sure that's where WillWhite is going. Like, I just
don't see that being a mainthing that happens.

(01:05:35):
Six books in, there's not a lotof romance that goes on. There's
not a lot of those elements tothe story like there are in
other animes or other books ofthis this genre of this nature.
Yeah. Here, it seems to be moreabout these guys and girls, this
crew advancing

Right.

Slava (01:05:55):
In the sacred arts. So Right. As much as I think it's
fun to speculate on that,probably not a big portion of
the story or a big deal in thestory.

Fair enough. That leads me to another question for
you as we wind this episodedown. Got any hot takes? Hot
takes? About literally anything.
Yaren, Mercy, Linden, Aethan,Orthos, Kelsea, the uncrowned
king tournament, the dread gods,the akura clan, Dross.

Slava (01:06:24):
You know, I can't think of any. Like, a hot take. I had
some hot takes from the previousbooks we read.

Oh, I know. And so does the audience.

Slava (01:06:33):
And I think one of my hot takes has to do with something
about the romantic relationshipor lack thereof between Lindon
and Yaren and Mercy? Mhmm. Ican't think of any.

One of my hot takes is I think that Will is going to
have a big moment with Ethanwhere he gets his comeuppance
because he's never really gottenthat yet. Now granted, he did
have a really difficult momentwith Lindon when he lost his arm
in book 2 or 3. Other than that,Aethan hasn't even though he

(01:07:08):
got, you know, dethroned, Ithink that White is saving him,
like, saving a chess piece.Right? Like, can't wait to play
this.
And I think we're all gonnaenjoy it, even though we like
Ethan.

Slava (01:07:18):
I'll buy that.

We also don't don't really know if we can fully
trust him because we're not surewhat he's doing.

Slava (01:07:24):
I mean, I don't think he's an enemy, but I think his
machinations have causedproblems, like with Linden
losing his arm. Yep. He is sosingularly focused that he
doesn't think about theseconsequences, and he admits to
it

Mhmm. Mhmm.

Slava (01:07:42):
Than 2 books ago, I think. Alright. I like your hot
take. I'll I'll second themotion for that hot take.

You second the motion?

Slava (01:07:49):
Yeah.

Alright. Well, bring some hot takes for later for
next episode when we have ourguest episode, and we'll see
what happens there.

Slava (01:07:55):
Sounds good. But before we leave, Jonathan, let's rate
the book. So our usual ratingsystem, for those who don't
know, is 1 through 5, 5 beingperfect, 4 being was good, but I
might change this, 1 being hotgarbage, and we usually do world
characters plot. So for me, thisbook was 5 across. Same.

(01:08:20):
5 all across.

But that leads me to a different question, and I look.
I picked the series. I love theworld. I love the characters. I
love the plot.
I love the the rising tension,bloopers at the end of the
books. Man, it's so fun. Just agreat time. But if you were to
pick 3 words to describe thebook Slava, let's add to this,
little rating system, what threewords would you use to describe

(01:08:44):
the book where it's not asentence, just 3 different
words?

Slava (01:08:47):
I would say emotional. Growth and struggle would be the
the 2 other words. Strugglebecause we we get more of the
internal struggle of Yerin orspecifically her fear of losing
people. That's more profound inthis book, I think. Growth
because we do see both of themadvance.
We see both of them internallyprocess their growth thus far.

(01:09:11):
And I wouldn't be able to giveyou an example right now, but
what I came away with afterfinishing the book, I was like,
oh, wow. We got more in-depth wegot more clarity into the
internal struggles of eachcharacter, and then we saw them,
you know, jump to Underlord.That sets them up in the next
book to be more advanced ascharacters personally too. Mhmm.

(01:09:35):
Now you gotta tell me your threewords. I I showed you mine. You
show me yours.

It's a weird way to say that, but okay. I'd say
ambitious. I think that Whitetried to tackle something pretty
big here, bringing everyone upto Underlord, because the more
powerful people get, the moredifficult I think the writing
begets. He's also setting upsome sort of tournament next
book, which is pretty cool, butalso could be difficult to, give
us a good payoff with. Anotherone, would be intense.

(01:10:04):
I think the book was prettyaction packed and difficult for
the for the characters. Maybeeven my third one is unrelenting
because of the pressure thatcharity encourages other people
to put on Linden. And it's notjust Linden. Right? It's Linden
and his friends.

(01:10:24):
They're just constantly beingbattered and and and beaten. So
it'd be ambitious, intense, andunrelenting. So if you want a
book that's ambitious, intense,and unrelenting as well as

Slava (01:10:37):
Emotional and shows people struggling and growing
out of those struggles. What wasyour third one? That was 2. No.
Emotional growth and struggles.

Yeah. Then this is the book. Give it a shot. I'm not
sure it does really well as astand alone. I've never met
someone who just read this book.
I think you could still get intoit, but I think there'd be a lot
of questions.

Slava (01:11:00):
Yeah. I'd never recommend anybody read any of these books
as stand alones. I would justchallenge them to start with 1
and trudge through them if theyreally feel like it's gonna be a
trudge, but for me, this onesits at top 2 out of the series
so far. I think even this wouldbe the number 1 if I was really

(01:11:21):
forced to think about it.Alright.
What would you say? Was this,like, a favorite or this, man,
it's one of the series and Ilike it, but there's one that
really is worth waiting for orthat it has come before?

I think it's top 5. Ghost water, I think, is my
favorite. I think Black Flame'smy second favorite.

Slava (01:11:39):
Okay.

I think it sits in top 5 because it's kind of a pivotal
moment both for the team, forthe individuals, and the world
is transitioning. So, yeah, sayit's top 5.

Slava (01:11:52):
And with that, I think we have landed this, flying cloud
fortress of solitude.

That's a lot of words. Too many words, Strauss. Thanks
for joining us, guys. But beforeyou vanish back to reality from
the Nightwing Valley, drop us aquick review on your favorite
podcast platform. It keeps ourquest alive and helps other book
lovers find their way here.
And take a

Slava (01:12:14):
moment to rate the show on your favorite podcast
platform and share it with yourbook loving friends. We'll see
you next time on SideQuest.

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Underlord Part 2 - Will Wight

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