Fight Club Part 1 - Chuck Palahniuk - The Side Quest Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Jonathan (00:10):
Good morning, good afternoon, and good night,
wherever you're tuning in. Weare Slava and Jonathan bringing
you the SideQuest podcast wherewe talk about character
development, stories, and allthings that are world building.
And we occasionally takeSideQuest because, frankly,
that's how conversations work.Just as a reminder, Good

(00:41):
evening, Slava.

Slava (00:42):
Hey there, Jonathan. How are you doing? I'm doing
alright. How about yourself?

Jonathan (00:48):
I am doing okay. I could be better, but I'm, as
Tyler Durden quotes us, I amembracing pain. I'm paraphrasing
him. To experience real reality.

Slava (01:00):
Are you Tyler Durden's blown out kidneys?

Jonathan (01:03):
Tyler Durden's blown up back, actually. Kidneys are
just a fun side effect.

Slava (01:08):
Excellent.

Jonathan (01:08):
Yeah. If you haven't guessed already, we are reading
Chuck Palaniuk. Real? Palaniuk?

Slava (01:15):
I think it's Palaniuk. If I'm channeling my inner
Ukrainian and this guy is afellow Ukrainian, it's Palaniuk.

Jonathan (01:22):
Alright. I know we do this every time, but we are
reading Chuck Palaniuk's classicbook, Fight Club, written in
1996, which later, but not muchlater, became a hit movie in
1999 that blew the malepopulation by storm. It was the
original Barbie movie, if youwill.

Slava (01:43):
But for men.

Jonathan (01:44):
But for men. Right. Yeah. I didn't think I had to
say that twice, but thanks forclarifying. Thanks for
clarifying that, Slava.

Slava (01:50):
You're welcome. That's what I'm here for. Yeah. I'm
here as the narrator helping youalong your journey to self
discovery.

Jonathan (01:58):
You're side quest throbbing heart?

Slava (02:01):
Yes. I am Tyler Durden's side quest throbbing heart.

Jonathan (02:05):
No. No. No. Just side quest's throbbing heart. There
you go.
Yep. This Book.

Slava (02:12):
It's a book.

Jonathan (02:14):
Thank you. Thank you. I am aware that it's a book. I'm
going through it right now,actually, in case that was
unclear. This book arc will be 3episodes.
Episode 1, which you'relistening to, is chapters 1
through 15. Episode 2 is chapter16 through 30, and episode 3,
per usual, will be our guestepisode, and we will be having

(02:36):
Jess on, the all familiar ChuckPalaniuk master extraordinaire.

Slava (02:42):
That she is. But only a quick correction. We won't get
into the actual plot or any plotpoints in detail until part 2.
And then with Jess, we'll dokind of just an overall
reflection, or maybe we willjust start talking and see where
the episode with Jess goes. Part2, next episode, is where we

(03:05):
will get into the plot in moredetail, but that's it.
Anyway, as we set off in today'sside quest, be sure to hit that
subscribe button so you nevermiss an episode. So Fight Club
is the debut novel of Americanauthor Chuck Palahniuk. And as
Jonathan mentioned earlier, 3years later, American filmmaker

(03:27):
David Fincher directed the filmadaptation starring your one and
only Brad Pitt as Tyler Durdenand Edward Norton as the
narrator and the beloved HelenaBonham Carter as Marla Singer.
The Fight Club is a contemporarywork of literary fiction that
contends with masculinity,materialism, consumer culture,

(03:51):
and modern disillusionment.Inspired partly by a fight he
had on a camping trip, PalynukRoad Fight Club, partly in
response to what he saw as anincreasingly popular genre of
female togetherness books andfilms.
He wanted to write somethingsimilar about male affiliation.
The novel follows the story ofan unnamed narrator told largely

(04:13):
in flashbacks. Struggling withinsomnia, the narrator finds
solace in attending supportgroups for terminal illness
where he can cry and finallyfall asleep. The piece is
disrupted by Marla Singer, afellow imposter, leading to his
insomnia's return. Dissatisfiedwith his corporate life, he

(04:33):
meets Tyler Durgin, kinda likewe met, a charismatic man who
introduces him to fight club, asecret group where men release
their frustrations throughphysical fights.
Their narrator and Tyler becomeclose, but Tyler's relationship
with Marla triggers jealousy inthe narrator. Tyler's influence

(04:54):
escalates to the creation ofproject mayhem, a movement of
destructive and anarchist acts.As fight club and project mayhem
grow, the narrator realizes thathe and Tyler are the same person
with Tyler emerging when thenarrator sleeps. Determined to
stop Tyler, the narratorconfronts him atop a building

(05:16):
rigged with explosives. Heshoots himself to get rid of
Tyler's control.
Surviving the ordeal, thenarrator awakens in a hospital
when he converses with staff whosuddenly reveal their loyalty to
project mayhem, leaving thefuture ambiguous.

Jonathan (05:33):
Is that how we met Slava? We got in a fight? Fist
fight?

Slava (05:37):
Oh, I was gonna say the nude beach, but sure.

Jonathan (05:39):
We got in we got in a fight. Fist fight on the nude
beach. Nice. Have you ever beenin a fight before Slava? Over
the age of, let's say, 18.

Slava (05:48):
No. A couple under 18, but nothing over 18. Come close.
Yeah. I've come close.

Jonathan (05:54):
I remember you mentioning to me a few times the
it was actually probably duringthe IT episodes of being in
fights with kids.

Slava (05:59):
Yeah. I have the advantage of being a smaller guy
by stature and a loudmouth, sopeople assume I'm insane. It's
the Joe Pesci effect.

Jonathan (06:09):
Mhmm. Mhmm. Don't mess with the short guy because he
might cut off your balls?

Slava (06:13):
Yeah. It really works. It served me well. It's got me out
of some hairy situations, but Ican't say even those were more
than a handful in my lifebecause I'm just not a man prone
to violence.

Jonathan (06:27):
You know, I think that would, surprise the viewers
because of the, the angryoutbursts, the regular angry
outbursts on the show here.

Slava (06:34):
Oh, yeah. I rant and rave like a lunatic sometimes, but
I've learned how to curve Butit's controlled. I've learned
how to control it. Exactly.

Jonathan (06:42):
Unlike Tyler.

Slava (06:43):
Unlike Tyler who blew up a building to destroy another
building. She was overkill, butwhatever.

Jonathan (06:51):
Something like that. A quick note about the author,
Chuck Palaniuk was born inFebruary of 1962. And like Salva
said, he's an American authorknown for his transgression
fiction, which we'll get into alittle later if you're not
familiar with the genre. He'scurrently published 19 novels,
one of which is Fight Club,which we're talking about.
Palaniuk worked as a dieselmechanic and a journalist before

(07:14):
he was pursuing fiction writingin his thirties.
And he was inspired by workshopsled by Tom Spanbauer, I think
that's how we say his name,whose minimalist style, writing
style that is, shaped Palynuk'sown. He also volunteered at
homeless shelters and hospicecenters, experiences that
heavily influenced hisstorytelling. And I think we see

(07:36):
some of those major themes comeout not only in Fight Club, but
also in, another previous bookwe did, which was Survivor.

Slava (07:43):
That's right. You wanna know a little background on how
he started volunteering athomeless shelters?

Jonathan (07:49):
Lay it on me.

Slava (07:49):
Alright. So I saw an interview with him, and he was
talking about a point in hislife where he was really
depressed, and things were justcoming undone in his life. And
somebody invited him to church,and he was at such a low point
in his life. He's like, fine.I'll go to church.
Normally, I wouldn't do this,but whatever. Here I am. And at

(08:10):
church, this was aroundChristmas time, I think. This is
where my memory gets fuzzy. Itwas either Christmas time or
some other big event where hepulled off either an ornament or
he pulled something out of ahat, and he had to do the thing
that was on the card attached tothe ornament or the card in the
hat.

(08:31):
Sorry, Chuck, if I'm butcheringthis part of the story. The
point that stuck with me was thething that he pulled out said,
take a hospice person on a date.So a person who's about to die
or is soon about to die, takehim on a date or her. So he went
to a hospital or wherever youfind hospice folks, and he

(08:51):
started hanging out with them.And most of them said, I don't
wanna date.
Don't take me to a restaurant. Idon't need any movies. I'm in
pain. I'm dying. Please drive meto my

Jonathan (09:03):
Appointment probably or something? Appointment

Slava (09:05):
help group support group. And so he would drive these
folks to support groups, andpeople there assumed that he was
also suffering from whatever thesupport group was trying to help
the people, and he didn't havethe heart to tell him, no. No.
No. I'm just here with, Bob, youknow, bitch tits over here.
Yeah. I don't have thetesticular cancer or whatever.

(09:26):
Right? I'm pulling that out of abook, but it was another example
he gave. Yeah.
This book specifically. It wasanother example that he gave,
but that definitely got pulledinto the pulled into the story.
That's how he got involved withhospice and homeless shelter
folks.

Jonathan (09:43):
Church, I mean, that gives Survivor some some more
context. You didn't mentionthat, when we did that episode.

Slava (09:48):
I didn't because it had nothing to do with Survivor.
This was him telling tellingpeople specifically how he ended
up riding Fight Club, what kindaprompted it, was this event in
his life where he was justbroken and upset and at wit's
end, you could say. Mhmm.

Jonathan (10:07):
He was

Slava (10:07):
at a really low place. Right? And then he started doing
this hospice ministry alongsidewith some of the other stuff
he'll get into and what youalready mentioned, I think.
That's what Fight Club came outof, and that's why it's so late
in his career, even in his life,to to start writing. I mean, we
we covered a couple of authorsthat did this where they didn't

(10:29):
break out until they were 30,but that's a little, peek behind
the curtain of mister, mixmister Palanuk here.

Jonathan (10:36):
That's interesting. I mean, you definitely do way more
research than I do, so that thatdidn't come up when I was poking
around.

Slava (10:42):
Yeah. No. I literally googled Chuck Palynuk, why he
wrote Fight Club, and, like,yeah, 10 things.

Jonathan (10:49):
That makes my research sound so lame because if you
literally researched that onesentence, it's like, well, what
did he do then?

Slava (10:57):
Well and I found interviews. I don't I didn't go
to, like, lame blogs. I'maccusing you of this. I didn't
go to some lame blog or aWikipedia page. Although, I used
that too.

Jonathan (11:07):
Cool. Cool. Cool. But Not quoting anything that I
looked up. Thanks, Slava.

Slava (11:10):
Yep. Yep. Yep. But I went to a YouTube video that had him
talking. It was just his voice,him Sounds like fake news.
CNN or the other one. I don'tknow. No. I'm kidding. I don't
care.
They all suck. Cable TV news is,a blight on humanity.

Jonathan (11:27):
PBS. He was on PBS talking about Fight Club Yeah.
Telling you to donate tograndma's, you know, Sesame
Street.

Slava (11:33):
It was that weird mister Rogers episode where he talked
about transgressive fiction.

Jonathan (11:40):
Oh, yeah. I remember that one when

Slava (11:41):
I was growing up. Good lord. Alright. Well, let's bring
us back here. What's the worldon the where the train goes into
mister Rogers?

Jonathan (11:51):
Oh, I'm oh, I I just think it's the neighborhood.

Slava (11:57):
Yeah. Okay. Neighborhood. That's where a lamb chop and the
king got into a humongous fistfight with the owl to death.

Jonathan (12:06):
Oh my gosh. No kidding. You're ruining people's
childhood one sentence at atime, just one after the other.

Slava (12:12):
But do you wanna explore a little bit more about the idea
behind Fight Club? I do. Wetalked about the nucleus there,
like, what sparked it, but a lotmore work went into it.

Jonathan (12:23):
Yeah. Give me the give me the lowdown on that because
somebody like Palaniuk who has,like I remember reading in some
of your notes here, which I'mnot spoiling it for everybody,
but he, like, was so distraughtand basically festering.

Slava (12:40):
Yeah.

Jonathan (12:40):
I mean that in a literal sense, festering in his
own anger and despair. And fromthat, he wrote this. And that
actually sounds similar toanother book we read, which is
Ball, where the guy was so fedup. Was it Peter, Paul?

Slava (12:55):
Robert McManon.

Jonathan (12:56):
Close 3rd. Peter, Paul, or Robert? Anyway, take it
away.

Slava (13:00):
It was before they got married. Peter, Paul, and
Robert. There we go. Oh, no.You're blocking it.

Jonathan (13:06):
Yeah. There we go. I'm

Slava (13:08):
sorry. Yeah. You're you're absolutely right that
Palynuk was at a very low pointin his life. He was miserable.
He hated his job.
He was struggling with postcollege isolation. He had
college debts. He felt adisconnection from society at
large, and he decided to write anovel that would explore

(13:28):
existential despair as one does

Jonathan (13:30):
As one does.

Slava (13:31):
And the search for meaning. So he's going through
this, and he wants to exploreidentity, masculinity,
rebellion, and then he says,alright. So I have personal
frustrations. I feel isolated. Isee this support group world to
which I am driving these folksthat I'm supposed to be helping.

(13:53):
I'm volunteering with them. Hefinds that, wow, being around
others is comforting. And tohim, by proxy, and especially to
those who are confronting death,it gave them a sense of relief
and gave him a sense ofvitality. And this is what
inspired the narrator'sattendance at the support groups

(14:14):
in the book. As he's writing allthis and processing all this,
he's like, oh, it's not justbeing around people, but we need
physical altercations andphysical contact and touch, and
we need people to participatewith us.
It is supposed to be socialreactions. This becomes such a
strange part of the story, butit's so evident in the book. So

(14:39):
after a personal fight, whichyou mentioned, during a camping
trip left his face visiblybattered, Palmyk observed how
people avoided addressing him orhis injuries. Like he said in
that interview, even people willlook at his navel or his Adam's
apple. And as he reflected thediscomfort, look at the

(14:59):
vulnerability he felt duringthese confrontations, these
little interactions, this beganto inform the creation of Fight
Club as a book, but in the book,it it's where he creates the
space where physicalaltercations were normalized.
So he normalized them, and hegave the narrator a cathartic

(15:21):
release during narrator's boutsin the fight club.

Jonathan (15:26):
Mhmm.

Slava (15:27):
Having the debt, living alone, facing angst that he had
with a dead end job, he startedto rebel against consumerism,
and that poured into the book.The book has been analyzed by
10,000 people, and almost all ofthem say that Palynuk has

(15:47):
criticized consumer drivenidentity. And if you watch the
movie, it's the IKEA furniture.And if you read the book, it's
all the fancy high end stuffthat he has, even like gadgets.
And then he names them in thebook just like American Psycho,
Bateman.
He does the same thing. And asthat's coming together, he also

(16:09):
is looking at the fact thatthere is a lack of male social
narratives. He notes in thisinterview and a couple others
the scarcity of storiesaddressing male bonding and
emotional struggles. I like theabundance of narratives for
women. So fight club for himbecame a counternarrative,

(16:31):
providing space for malevulnerability, empowerment, and
the quest for male identity.

Jonathan (16:37):
Not just him, though. I mean, this thing blew up in
the 19 nineties It did. At early2000, which I think should be
not to, you know, derail us toomuch, but I think that that is a
really telling thing thatthere's a large group of people,
I e, the male population, whofeels left out from, to quote

(16:59):
you, the zeitgeist, if you will,of all the things going on, and
I I I'm just kind of thankfulthat they're not all as angry as
Robert and Chuck. He findshimself in this place,

Slava (17:13):
in the zeitgeist as we all do, but there's a
disconnect. And he hears this isme paraphrasing him. He hears
this cacophony from the society,and he's trying to structure it.
He's trying to structure thechaos. That's why Tyler Durden
is trying to seek structurethrough chaos.

(17:34):
And so Palynik shapes Fight Clubas a way for men with rigid,
unfulfilling lives to experiencetemporary anarchy and freedom.
Again, me paraphrasing him andsome stuff I read about him. So
he explores masculinity in hisbook. He explores secondary
father figures, which TylerDurden is to him, like a mentor

(17:59):
offering guidance andempowerment, but Tyler is also
offering chaos and destruction.But just like with Survivor,
there's a critique of nihilism.
He explores nihilism as anattractive, but ultimately
flawed philosophy, especiallyfor disillusioned men and youth.

(18:19):
He kinda contrasts it with theneed for growth and maturity,
and we we kinda see that in thenarrator, but we do not sure if
he gets to the end. And finallyfinally, this is Palanik's way
to reflect on the culture thathe found himself in while he was

(18:40):
writing his book. As you said,it blew up, and it resonated
with a cultural need forconsensual rough play, if you
will. If we're gonna waxphilosophical mentorship,
psychological empowerment formen, it's him trying to address
aspects of the male identitythat were neglected in

(19:02):
contemporary narratives, oryoung men didn't even experience
it in any meaningful way.
So the ultimately, Fight Club isborn out of Palanik's struggles,
his observations, the way hesees as societal gaps, and he
wanted to create, again, meparaphrasing, a proactive
narrative that challengedtraditional norms. That's the

(19:26):
transgressive part of it, butalso sparked deeper
conversations about maleidentity and purpose. For a
short book, I think he packs ina lot of stuff.

Jonathan (19:37):
Just a quick reminder for listeners. Fight Club was
his first published novel.Right? And so he hit product
market fit, which is what Iwould call this, where he found
some place in the in the market.The market is like a group of
people.
Right? So his product, FightClub, found a market,

(19:57):
Disenchanted Men, and the fitwas, hey. This resonates with
me. That's a big deal. Productmarket fit is a really hard
thing to hit.
It usually takes people a longtime, but he had some sort of
accelerant on this because hewas feeling this thing that it
turns out a lot of other peoplewere feeling. Now I was pretty

(20:19):
young in 99, and so I wouldn'tread this or watch the movie
until probably a decade later,give or take. But I would say
that part of and this is, like,looking back, so I'm curious
about your thoughts, Slava, fromback then. But looking back, I
would say that part of theissues that I've seen were that

(20:43):
there's, to your point, a lackof mentorship. Fathers have
continually been berated inevery sort of mainstream media
from Simpsons to Family Guy towhatever, where men are stupid.
They don't do anything right.There's also no coming of age
ceremonies anymore for men, andit's degraded into men are just

(21:03):
here. We don't like them. Wehate them. They're stupid.
They can't do anything right,and men are sick of it. Now
granted, Family Guy, I think,wasn't out in 99, but Simpsons
and a few other episodesidentify dinosaurs. Do you

Slava (21:16):
remember dinosaurs? I do.

Jonathan (21:18):
Not the mama. Right? Like, there's so many things
that just say, alright. Men arestupid. They can't do anything
right.
They're just dumb blue collarworkers, etcetera, etcetera.
Chuck was clearly old enough tofeel the pressure and weight of
that, and he was like, this isawful.

Slava (21:36):
I wasn't even 20 when this movie came out, and I wanna
say I watched it in the movies,in the movie theater, or just
after it hit DVDs. I think itwas just after it hit DVDs. So I
watched it, and I could relatefor the reasons you mentioned.

(21:57):
But now the caveat here and it'snot really a caveat. Gotta be
some nuance.
The nuance here is some guys arecan't get rights. They are what
is depicted on the televisionwas depicted on television
because that's the men thatsociety brought up. Listen. I
can't tie a tie. Like, I barelycan tie a tie.

(22:19):
Every time I tie a tie, which isonce every decade,

Jonathan (22:22):
I need to watch a YouTube video. For the random
weddings you get best manneredfor?

Slava (22:28):
Right. But there is something about some men that I
know and men in general outthere that I don't know that
they are kind of useless. Not inthe sense that I'm judging their
worth or values human beings,but this is the guy who's in his
thirties, wears graphic tees,old New Balances, and cargo

(22:50):
pants because, well, it's justdumb to, you know, put any care
into what you think becausethat's what girls do. And I'm
just a man. All I need is a beerand, you know, could change
brakes on my car.
Listen. I like beers. I also canchange brakes on my car. I can
do light construction workbecause I was in construction,

(23:10):
so I can do light work aroundthe house. So I can do, quote,
unquote, manually things, but Ifeel like there's some men in
society at large and in my life,they're just kinda just there.
And, again, it's not a judgmentof their value. I mean, there's
some people, like I said, whoare can't get right, so no
matter what they give them,they'll never take anything and

(23:33):
make anything out of it. But Ithink a lot of it has to do with
the generation that raised themthat created the world that that
we're in.

Jonathan (23:42):
Yeah. I would agree, but the the tough thing about
that is, like, we're in thepresent, and even though people
are the product of societypartly, to your point, they're
also the product of their ownchoosing responsibility,
choosing whether or not they'regoing to engage. And it's
difficult because it's, like,yeah, you got handed a bad deck
of cards. But you know what?That's literally what everyone

(24:04):
get gets handed.
Everyone gets handed a randomdeck of cards. That's it. You
don't get to choose them. Yougotta deal with it. I've, you
know, I've talked about my birthdefect on here a bunch of times.
We literally had to push thisepisode because of it. You just
don't get you don't get to pick.And to your point, we've lost
the John Waynes. We've lost anysort of characters to look up to

(24:25):
when we're growing up. All wehave now are the Homer Simpsons,
the, can't remember thedinosaur's name, the guy from
Family Guy, whatever his name,Peter.

Slava (24:34):
Yep.

Jonathan (24:34):
That's it. Those are the people that we've looked up
to growing up, and I know thatyou said this doesn't affect
their their their value. That'sobjectively, but it does affect
their value internally, which isa whole different animal.

Slava (24:45):
Yeah.

Jonathan (24:46):
And then it ruins, like, their motivation to want
to do anything, which Iunderstand because I've been one
of those people, but eventually,you have to just nut up and go,
cool. I'm gonna do this anyway,and people aren't gonna like it,
and I just you have to stopcaring. You just gotta live your
life, and people are gonnacritique you for everything you
do even if it's the right thing.If I had a dollar every time I

(25:09):
did the right thing, like,objectively, morally,
objectively, we won't get intoit, but, like, morally,
objectively, the right thing.Helping someone across the
street, stopping to, like,literally feed a homeless person
on my last dollar.
Like You'd have $4. Excuse me?Did you say I'd I would have $4?
You jack off. I'd have, like,$400,000.

(25:34):
Oh my gosh. Because I used to beone of those nice guys, which we
don't have to get into thatunless you want to, but, like, I
would do nice things for peopleall the time, and I wouldn't
tell people about it.

Slava (25:44):
Yeah. What do you mean by nice guys? Do you mean the guy
that gets trampled by all thegirls, like the stereotypical
nice guys, or do you meanactually, like, a nice guy to

Jonathan (25:52):
Both.

Slava (25:52):
A fall I

Jonathan (25:52):
mean, both of those.

Slava (25:53):
Where you're just always trying to help somebody, always

Jonathan (25:57):
burning around. Those things.

Slava (25:58):
Okay.

Jonathan (25:58):
I got trampled on by women because I was trying to be
nice, and I was always doingnice things for other people.
And then eventually, literallyhad to just stop because I I
wasn't doing anything formyself. I spent a decade doing
that from, like, 18 to 28 andthen looked at what I had left,
and I was like, I literally havenothing. I've done everything
for other people. I didn't doanything for myself.

(26:19):
I was like, I have to put myselffirst now. I can't do this for
other people. This isn't thelife that I wanna live.

Slava (26:24):
Something you said just a second ago disconnected to a
conversation I just had with mywife at dinner, and we were
talking about a family memberwho's a can't get right. And she
was just kind of not bemoaningit, but that's too strong of a
word.

Jonathan (26:40):
Venting?

Slava (26:40):
She was just venting because she was sad about it,
and she said, will this personever learn? And I said, probably
not because he is currently 42,and him licking his own wounds
and blaming his parents, andthey weren't great people at

(27:01):
all. They really screwed up hislife. But at this point in his
life, it's as painful anddestructive as it is. It's
easier to lick his own woundsthan to take the necessary steps
to get out of the muck that he'sin because it's gonna hurt.
It's gonna feel unpleasant, toput it lightly. It's gonna

(27:24):
probably force him into a fewexistential crises, but that is
harder than sitting in his ownfield, to use a dramatic, you
know, term there. Neveradjusting or never taking the
necessary steps to get out ofthe the rut because as painful

(27:46):
as that is, it's easier thanmaking the hard steps to do the
right thing. And to bring itback to the book, a lot of the
men young men at that point thatI grew up with and even some
older guys, like the guy whosuggested Fight Club to me, it
was now I remember it was a DVDthat I rented to watch Fight
Club. He was working therestaurant that I was working

(28:08):
at, and he was talking abouthow, you know, he watched in the
theater and it blew his mind andit was the greatest thing ever,
and you should definitely watchit.
I remember him going through,like, the motions, going through
the plot and telling me theplot, and he didn't spoil it for
me, but he was telling me kinda,like, the essence of the story
without getting into it. Heidentified with what the movie

(28:29):
was trying to say. Right? Yeah.The movie follows the book
pretty well, so it's not

Jonathan (28:34):
Yeah. It does.

Slava (28:35):
It's not that far off.

Jonathan (28:36):
The ending is a little different, but for the most
part, it's, like, 96% accurate.

Slava (28:40):
Right. So even at that time, somebody approaching his
thirties felt that, and that'swhat Paliniuk was. Paliniuk was
in his thirties when he wrotethis, and so he hit that market
segment. But when I watched it,I was like, oh, I feel this too.
I understand what it is to bedisillusioned and have a dead

(29:01):
end job, not know what you'redoing after high school, not
having a father figure, kindahaving to figure out things on
your own, and I'm a cynic andabsurdist at heart.
You know? Shocked. Remember wetalked about if we weren't
Christians, we'd be

Jonathan (29:17):
Oh, yeah.

Slava (29:18):
Absurdists? So I was that. At that point, I was quasi
agnostic, you know, looking atthe horizon where atheism was
just to, you know, just tobeyond those mountains over
there. And I know myself, and Icouldn't articulate it then. I
can articulate it now.
I was definitely an absurdist atthat point in my life without
even knowing what that wordmeant. That's why I resonated

(29:41):
with this book, the movie first.

Jonathan (29:44):
Yeah. I think the movie caught most people first
because it's just easier for usto digest than committing to,
like, you want me to sit downand read a book? I mean, it's
it's got a cool name, FightClub, but, like, why is there a
picture of soap on it? I thinkthat we got drawn into the movie
first, a lot of us, and then hitthe book afterward, like, oh,
hey. Movies and books areusually different.
Let me see what the differencesare. But it's pretty close.

(30:07):
Yeah. Pretty close. To end thisnote before we move on and get
back into the book, what do youthink is the remedy for this
pressure and weight that menfeel from society?

Slava (30:21):
I honestly think the biggest contributor to this
problem is the lack of heroesand people we can live up to,
those second fathers. Like, forme That's a good term. I didn't
have a father, so I had a lot ofsecond fathers. And another guy
that worked at this restaurant,he was sorta like a big brother

(30:44):
second father to me, and I had afew teachers throughout my life
even as young as 2nd grade anddefinitely in 7th 8th grade, a
history teacher because by thatpoint, dad was dead, and then
this guy at the restaurant and afew others since then that were
older men, we hung out, we werefriends, but they really acted

(31:08):
like older brothers or secondfathers to me the same way King
did. I've mentioned this inprevious episodes.
King, through his writing, actedthis way towards me without him
even knowing that I existed, buthis writings substituted another
second father for me, if youwill. And I think that is at the
nucleus of the issue because youyou always have crazy societal

(31:32):
norms that people buck against,and this is why transgressive
writing is so cool because itbucks against those norms and
kinda shows the emperor that hedoesn't have any clothes.

Jonathan (31:41):
And some

Slava (31:42):
of it is just garbage, like the consumerism where you
fill your empty heart withwhatever, IKEA products in a
movie, but name your poison inreal life. It doesn't matter,
and that is what causes a lot ofmen to be disillusioned and not
being able to function like men,because they don't have anybody

(32:03):
to emulate, and this issometimes an issue even in 2
parent homes, 2 incomes,everything is great, dad doesn't
drink, mom doesn't beat you,whatever. As best of a situation
in our broken world you canpicture, even guys from those
homes don't have the necessaryinput into their lives Mhmm. To

(32:28):
make them, like, good men. Mhmm.

Jonathan (32:31):
And all

Slava (32:32):
that means and I'm not I'm not talking about some guy
that can take out 17 Vietnamesewith an Uzi and bench press
£600. Like, that's movies. I'mtalking about actual manliness,
and that doesn't have to be thestereotypical stuff, and it
shouldn't be because that's allsilly nonsense because I've
known book nerds and bookwormswith glasses and suspenders that

(32:55):
acted more like men than the theroided out jackasses at the gym.

Jonathan (33:02):
Yeah. The men that you're talking about, correct me
if I'm wrong, is the men that weread in storybooks, like the
heroes of old, the, I can'tremember the guy from Scotland's
name. What's the guy fromBraveheart. Braveheart.
Braveheart.
What's his name? WilliamWallace. Thank you, William
Wallace. Guys like him, KingArthur, King David, like

(33:26):
Napoleon even. Like, not to saythat these guys did no wrong,
but when you fight for yourcountry, when you have purpose,
and this is my answer to this,is part of the and I and I think
it ties really well with whatyou said where people don't have
input anymore from older folks,like older brothers or second
fathers.
Part of having that input isthose people help you figure out
purpose and responsibility, andmen without responsibility feel

(33:50):
like the scum of the earthbecause they're, like, then why
am I even here?

Slava (33:54):
Right.

Jonathan (33:54):
And they either do they they do one of 2 things to
your point. They they become thethe jagoffs at the gym, and they
just, like, abuse women andwhatever, or they become the
can't, can't do rights. Andeverything is the society's
fault. And both of those aredangerous. It's not a good
thing.
And so if you've got a man inyour life that you and this is a

(34:15):
bit of a side tangent, but thatyou have not told him that you
appreciate him, whether you're aguy or a gal, whatever, whoever
you are, go tell that person youappreciate them. I tell this to
my wife all the time. I'm like,men never get compliments ever.
And she's like, really? I waslike, oh, yeah.
We could probably list them onone hand the number of times
we've gotten compliments in ourlives. Right? Like, we just
don't get them very often. Let'ssay 16 years of age and older.

(34:39):
When you're a child, it'sdifferent.
Oh, good job, Tommy. You did youknow, you you you, you went to
the bathroom correctly. Nicework. You know? Oh, you did your
homework.
Nice work. Like, that'sdifferent. Yeah.

Slava (34:48):
Yeah.

Jonathan (34:48):
But when you're quote, unquote a man, no. You're here
to work, and if you're notworking, you're worthless. So
get out of here. And even if youare working, you're worthless.

Slava (34:58):
Right. Pretty much. And that's kinda near the narrator
story too because he has a job.It's a dead end job.

Jonathan (35:09):
And All 17 of them.

Slava (35:11):
Oh, yeah. All 17 of them. But his real job in the
corporate world, which buys himall the nice stuff, doesn't even
fulfill him because he alwayshas to manage his dumb boss who
doesn't know anything about theproduct. He has to teach him,
like, the sales pitch for thething that they're selling,
whatever the hell it was. Carreturns.
Yeah. There you go. Thank you.

Jonathan (35:32):
Insurance recalls.

Slava (35:33):
That's what it's called. Yep. And even his boss, who is
supposed to be above middlemanagement, at least the way I
read it Yeah. Doesn't even knowthe product, doesn't even know
what they're selling, so hefeels worthless there.

Jonathan (35:45):
Man, the number of times that that's happened in my
career, and I know yours, it'slike, what am I doing wrong? And
then the thing is I know whatI'm doing wrong. It's I don't
play politics games. Yeah.

Slava (35:55):
Well, to me, it's the meme. I see it all over the net
recently. I think it's eitheryounger millennials or Gen z who
are putting out this meme. Howcan a guy or girl, how can a
person who makes 3 times as muchas me not understand how to
attach a PDF to an email?

Jonathan (36:14):
Can you print this web page for me? Okay. Well, I don't
wanna derail this. Please finishyour point.

Slava (36:18):
It's the second father. I've seen those second fathers
in my life help me tremendously

Jonathan (36:25):
Same.

Slava (36:25):
Where I was able to

Jonathan (36:27):
Same.

Slava (36:27):
Get out of my rut. And despite having, at times,
meaningless jobs, difficultsituations that I had to face,
even existentially, I'vementioned this less times, in
2014, my world kind of imploded,and I had to figure out my
identity, a new career, what amI doing. A lot of work went into
me becoming a professor, and Iwas on that track. And when my

(36:51):
world fell apart, I was applyingto the local liquor store to
stock shelves for 6:15 hourbecause everything fell apart.
And now come full circle,there's kind of some, you know,
call it grace, call it divineprovidence.
I am now an adjunct professor inthe field that I ended up going
into post that explosion. So asthat world came apart, I was

(37:15):
given a chance to do digitalmedia, and I excelled at it. And
now since since then, it's been10 years of me doing digital
media professionally. I've beenI've been doing this for 15, but
professionally, 10 years ofdoing digital media strategy,
social media optimization, I amnow teaching that as a professor

(37:37):
at a college. So things turnedaround for me.
For a lot of guys, it doesn't.To wrap it up, it goes back to
society at large. Yes. It'sscrewed with both men and women,
but since we're talking aboutyoung men here, is those second
fathers that are just missingbecause they either died off or
they're not playing ballanymore. They're like, I'm out.

Jonathan (37:57):
Well, they're also not in the same circles. You can't
find them anywhere. They haven'tgone away because there are some
still around, but you don't runinto them at the gym or the
wherever because we don't talkto each other in society
anymore. So No. That's a wholethat's a whole different rabbit
hole.
If you're enjoying today's sidequest, do us a favor and rate

(38:17):
the show real quick so thatothers know what to expect on
side quest. Let's build thiscasual book club together. Now
moving on here, you keepreferencing this idea of
transgression or transgressivefiction. And for those who
aren't familiar, because weshould have said this earlier,
the genre of transgressivefiction focuses on characters

(38:38):
who break societal norms,challenge traditional boundaries
of morality, law, culturalexpectations, and often explore
taboo subjects that delve intothe themes of rebellion and
identity and existentialism,which FICO does to a t Mhmm. Or
should I say f?
Can you give us the lowdown, thethe Slava's dissertation, but

(39:04):
keep it short, of why you lovetransgressive fiction, how it
applies to Fight Club, thethings that you see, and then
the benefit of transgressivefiction to society.

Slava (39:16):
Well, the term transgressive fiction began
gaining traction in the late20th century. I wanna say, like,
the sixties where it startpopping up as a thing that
people use a label. It startspopping up as a label, and it's
used to describe books, like yousaid, that depict a taboo

(39:39):
subject, but also sought tocritique and destabilize
societal norms, and that's whatI love about it. For me, the
challenge to traditionalboundaries as it relates
specifically to culturalexpectations is why I love
transgressive fiction. When thethemes of identity and

(40:01):
existentialism come up, that'swhere I am in my zone.
I love that kind of fiction.Because where it tries to
challenge boundaries or moralityas someone who has my worldview,
I think there's objective truth,which means there's objective
morality. That doesn't make me aprude, and I'm not offended by
transgressive fiction where itpushes those boundaries or

(40:23):
critiques religion. I'm okaywith that, but where I am
enticed by this genre is thecultural expectations, identity,
and existentialism as it's asit's explored. That's where it
gets me.
I I I love it. Back to thedefinition. There's a woman who
I found in my research. Her nameis Coco de Haunt, and she is an

(40:45):
independent scholar from the UK.She does PhD level work on
transgressive fiction.
So she's done an expose, if youwill, a dissertation on Marilyn
Manson, which was more like a ajournal article, not really a a
dissertation, but she has a bookthat's called extreme states,
the evolution of Americantransgressive fiction 1960 to

(41:07):
2000. And the first, like, 30pages of it, and that's all I
read, has to do with chartPalanook Palanook and his book,
Fight Club. And for her,Palinook is a face or was a face
of transgressive fiction becausethe he kind of has mentioned in

(41:28):
some interviews where he thinksit's dead already. Just like
avant garde art is dead becausenow everything's avant garde.
And if you talk to some peoplewho really love avant garde,
they say when Andy Warhol kindawent commercial, that's when
avant garde died because theneverything, everybody followed

(41:49):
suit and everything fell apart.
But for her, when she waswriting this book, which was
probably a few years after 2000,she saw Palaniuk as the face of
transgressive fiction, and herquoting him, she says that this
genre is what he's most famousfor. He has defined

(42:12):
transgressive fiction as fictionin which characters misbehave
and act badly, commit crimes orpranks as either a way of
feeling alive or as politicalacts of disobedience.
Characterizing his own, this isher describing Palanuk, his own
of viewer as fiction that usesantisocial behavior to

(42:37):
interrogate sociopoliticalnorms. Palahniuk, according to
De Haunte, also said that thistype of writing is no longer
accessible or easily accepted oreven welcomed after 911. So
there's this conversation goingon that this type of stuff is

(43:02):
either dead because it's beendone so much, where I don't
wanna put words in Palanik'smind or mouth, or it's because
9:11 kind of killed the vibe, ifyou will.
If somebody in the audienceknows more than me about this,
correct me in the comments. Soshe understands the genre, this
is DeHant, as a historicallyevolving type of fiction that

(43:25):
takes on specific form and levelof importance during specific
historical periods, changingalong with the extra textual
sociopolitical shifts that itexplores. So things kinda happen
in tandem. She argues thattransgressive fiction isn't just
text that shocks or has sociallyunacceptable behavior for the

(43:48):
hell of it, but it developssocial ideologies and crosses
between boundaries. Her view,however, still considers
transgressive texts as simplyreflecting society.
The haunt thinks it has thepotential to disrupt seemingly
stable ideas, norms, andconventions. There's, like, 2 or

(44:09):
3 streams of thought going on atthe same time when people talk
about transgressive fiction post911. But at the end, the bluff,
if you will, the bottom lineupfront, transgressive fiction
explores the violation of moral,social, and cultural boundaries
to interrogate and reflect ChinaMirror to the naked king on the

(44:30):
ideological structures of itstime And the characteristics
that she puts forth for thegenre is its boundary crossing
content, critical and reflectivepurpose, like, the inherent
purpose of it. It's dynamic.It's ideological interrogation
as she puts it.
There's a specific narrativestyle to it. There's specific

(44:52):
aesthetic to it. Transgressivefiction employs stylistic
techniques such as grotesqueimagery, repetition,
destabilizing narratives toamplify its themes. And, again,
the key feature is antisocialbehaviors, this rebellion. It
focuses on marginalized people.
The gore comes into it again,the use of violated bodies as

(45:15):
metaphors. The definitions Iread both by and others that
keep repeating this culturalreflection are are words coming
up all the time in my research.It's supposed to serve as a
mirror, and it's critical. Itengages the culture critically
as a critic. Rather thanoffering clear solutions, it

(45:37):
opens space for readers toquestion and analyze the
cultural norms and critiques,the power dynamics critiques,
and leaves the ending of itsnarratives ambiguous.
And all those things I like, butI like them because of what they
are attempting to do, and it'schallenging traditional cultural
expectations. And how they dothat is by exploring identity

(46:03):
and existentialism. And to me, Ithink it does it so well. And
because it's ambiguous, it opensitself up to conversations like
we're having, although you and Iprobably will agree on 98% of
things that we discuss. But evenif I'm talking to somebody who's
far more right than me or farmore left than me, but all 3 of

(46:25):
us, let's say, for thishypothetical, enjoy this type of
literature for the reasons thatI enjoy or similar reasons, it
opens up for such greatconversations.
That's that's why I love thisstuff.

Jonathan (46:39):
It does certainly open a lot of conversations, and I'm
glad that you touched onantisocial behavior because
that's pretty much what we weretalking about earlier in the 2
different groups of people thatwe said were dangerous, which
was the men who are the can't dorights and the ones who just
become misogynistic.

Slava (46:57):
Yeah. The self appointed alpha males, which you're not
alpha. Did you an alpha doesn'tneed to tell you that they're
alpha, so you're not alpha. Stoptalking.

Jonathan (47:05):
Correct. Correct. I I always love this line from, Game
of Thrones, where Joffrey, who'sking, and he's, like, 11 or
something like that. He's, like,oh, I'm the king. And his his
uncle, who's really pulling thestrings, he's, like, no king
who's really the king has totell people they're the king.
Exactly. It's he says it moreeloquently. He's like, if you
have to tell people the king,you aren't. It's wild. It's a

(47:28):
good line.
There's one point that you mademe think of a quote. You said a
lot of things, so I I will tryto keep this brief. But the
quote that I thought of was youcan avoid reality, but you can't
avoid the consequences ofavoiding reality, which I
believe was Ayn Rand. And it's aquote that I think about a lot
because I've been the can't doright for a while. I told you

(47:51):
earlier, like, I spent a decadetrying to help other people and
realized I was in the squalorwith them and didn't have to be.
That doesn't mean that I'mbetter than them, but it does
mean that I how do I say this?Oh, this is how I say it to
people. So if you say, Jonathan,I need a $100, and I go, yeah.
Sure. I'd love to I'll give youa $100, and then I look at my
bank account, and I don't have a$100.
You know what I can't give you?$100. Same thing applies to

(48:14):
peace, joy, direction, purpose,responsibility, etcetera,
etcetera, etcetera. The peoplethat you were talking about,
these second fathers, thebrothers, this external group of
people who are meant toinfluence you because we're
meant to be a community, notindividuals, which, I mean,
we're tiptoeing closer to that,which maybe we will dive into in
the next episode. But thosepeople who had that thing that

(48:36):
we needed that were able toinfluence us and plant seeds of,
like, hey.
There's hope. You know, I can'ttell you how many guys that were
big brothers or second fathers,even in just little things where
it's like, oh, maybe I can get ajob that pays properly if I do a
couple different things than ifI, you know, swallow my pride.
You're gonna have stupid peoplethat you work with all the time.

(48:58):
It's just that's just part ofit. Anyway, I wanna keep that
short to add on to your yournote about transgression fiction
where, you know, this quote, youcan avoid reality, but you can't
avoid the consequences ofavoiding reality.
And I think it's something thatwe need to remember because
today's choices, regardless ofeven if it's that I choose not
to do something, is a choice,and it does have consequences,

(49:19):
and you will have to pay thoseconsequences every time.

Slava (49:22):
Unless anybody think better of me than I deserve. I
was a king. Right? For a longtime.

Jonathan (49:28):
We don't.

Slava (49:29):
Thank you. And most of my teens and part of my twenties, I
was a king yet. Right? Now itgot a lot better in my twenties
because I had jobs, althoughthey were menial, labor jobs.
They did provide money andfriendships and some purpose.
So seeing the fruits of mylabor, for lack of better term,

(49:52):
I was like, oh. So if I continuein my construction work, I could
do this, this, and this, andthese guys make good money if
you get into a union. And Ireally like this part of my
construction. So if I continueon this path, it will lead me to
a better life. And then I wentto college, and I kinda cut the

(50:14):
academic bug.
And then I got into seminary,and I got bitten by the academic
bug even more. And then I wasput on this track to teach
church history eventually orsome sort of systematic theology
courses, and so I was I went tograd school, and then the whole
2014 happened. But it was allbecause of the second fathers

(50:37):
and the brothers I mentioned andfinding community, finding
friendships, finding purpose inclosed environments with other
men. That kinda got me out ofthe can't get right attitude and
lifestyle I was living up untilthen. So

Jonathan (50:53):
yeah. It's true. It's all true. Moving on, though,
let's rewind this book to thebeginning where we get the
setting of the book superstrongly at the beginning where,
we're actually at the end of thebook, and we trust the narrator.
We are shown that dehumanizationhappens through corporate work,

(51:17):
empty materialism to what you'vetouched on, and a side of human
despair for us to really dig ourhands into as we learn about the
world of Fight Club.
But what were some moments foryou in that opening segment,
like, not even just the firstchapter necessarily, but, like,
the first couple chapters thatmade the world become believable

(51:38):
to you?

Slava (51:38):
That's a good question. The fact that it's set in the
real world and the way Palanukopens up and you're in the
middle of this fight. No punintended. I was gonna

Jonathan (51:49):
say pun intended?

Slava (51:50):
So you have this guy who stands in the edge of a
skyscraper. We didn't know hisname, but he's with a man named
Tyler Durden. And Tyler hasstuck a gun in his mouth. And
what does Tyler say? He goes,oh, this is really isn't death.
K? So you're in a skyscraper.You got a gun in your mouth.
You're on the 100 and 92ndfloor, so it's a pretty big

(52:11):
skyscraper, and their narratorknows that the building will be
destroyed in 10 minutes byexplosives that are planted
around the foundation of thecolumns by an entity, if you
will, called Project Mayhem.Mhmm.
And right away, you see thatsomething is amiss. The narrator
has intimate knowledge of how tomake explosives, and the way

(52:33):
it's written, you're not surewhy he knows this, and I think
you're not sure if he's sure whyhe knows this, but he tells us,
well, it's because Tyler knowsthis. So there's some kinda
relationship between Tyler andthe narrator, and if you read
the book twice, then you'relike, oh, okay. This is the same
guy. But he and Tyler sees thesespace monkeys, as they call them

(52:57):
or as the narrator calls them,from Project Mayhem pushing
furniture out of the windowsonto the people below, and the
narrator knows this well, knowsknows the following statement
because Tyler knows this, thattheir real goal is to topple
this building, which is calledthe Parker Morris Building, onto
a nearby museum.

(53:18):
The narrator thinks that this isreally about a woman named
Marla, and you get a sense thatMarla's part of some kinda love
triangle with the narrator andTyler. So right away from the
beginning, when novel sets upTyler as this extreme violent
person who perpetuates extremeviolent acts as a response, and

(53:42):
this is me analyzing the book,you we wouldn't get this as on
the first read through, I don'tthink, unless you're some super
professor, as a response to thenarrator's inability to his can
get rightness because it seemslike he's giving the narrator,
you know, a a chance to come toJesus, you know, a come to Jesus
moment kinda here. And thenarrator, well, you find out in

(54:04):
the first opening pages, he isemasculated by modern life. He's
unable to have a relationshipwith Marla. There are other
problems in his life where hecan't get ahead of his job, and
he feels enslaved toconsumerism.
And so these frustrations arethrown in your face right away,

(54:25):
but these frustrations are kindof in this whirlwind of death
and destruction that'shappening. And you you
understand as the reader, eventhe first time, this is the end
of the story, and the narratoris gonna tell you how he got
here. It's something that is,thrown at you right away, and
you're right in the middle ofit. That's what made it feel
real.

Jonathan (54:45):
I I agree with you about the being set in the real
world because I've worked for acorporation. I've worked for a
bunch of them. I've been at thebottom. I've been in the middle.
I've never been at the top.
And the, man, the the thequenching, life draining,

(55:06):
sucking soul soul sucking lifedraining, soul sucking reality
of having to show up to that andbe treated like garbage by
people who are literally dumberthan you and don't have any
shred of decency and think thatthey've made it because they are
middle management when reallythey could change the way that

(55:27):
the work is being done, and youcould have fun at work with
people that you work with. Andyou don't have to be family like
people say today, which isstupid. Like, thanks so much.
You don't fire family. It's notpossible.
You don't do that. So let's notlet's stop calling that family.
But it felt real to me when hewas describing the corporate

(55:48):
world. Right? That's the thinggot me.

Slava (55:51):
Yeah. And they're also I'm not trying to be punny or
any of that or pull a pun out ofhere, but as you're viewing this
opening scene, Tyler and thenarrator are trying to find the
real by feeling pain and comingcloser to death. But even here
where they're really close todeath, it seems, at least in a

(56:13):
second read through, it's not asauthentic as they hoped that it
would be or as authentic as thenarrator thought it would be. He
has a gun in his mouth. He'sstanding in the side of a
building.
It's about to explode, but thisguy named Tyler says, even this
isn't really death. So theirfeelings now how do I say this?

(56:33):
Their feeling that thisexperience isn't real maybe
suggests that their strategythat got him here, which is
obviously violent, was a way tofind this real thing, but it's
ultimately flawed. And this isthe the scenario that you get
thrown in in the opening pages.Yeah.
Chapter 1.

Jonathan (56:54):
I'll tell you. This is up there for me. I know that I
went off a long time ago duringWarbreaker about the hook of a
book, and this one did it. Thisone really drew me in, and I
think that no. I don't think.
Palanuk knew what he was doing.He's like, this is what's going
on. Like, this is what this typeof being who's been beat down

(57:17):
and is frustrated and is finallydoing something about it does.
To to reference something youmentioned earlier where it's
like, we don't really see thistype of work anymore put out. I
never would have connected thatto 911, but that makes sense.
Even I feel like we see less diehards today, you know, where
it's like, hey. There was abuilding blown up because
America did take a real hit.But, honestly, I think that we

(57:39):
need to have more work liketransgressive fiction put out on
the store shelves, whetherthat's movies, books, video
games, whatever, because itspeaks to things that people
feel like they're going through,and it also kinda puts the
checks and balances in place.Right? Where you're challenging
ideas, and if we're gonna bethis, quote, unquote,

(58:02):
progressive nation, right,whatever that's defined as,
where we continue to adapt andgrow, then we need to challenge
all the ideas that we alreadyhave.
And I'm trying to remember whichwhich philosophers talk about
this idea of pain where pain isreality. It's a couple of them.
I don't remember which ones. Iwanna say it's Nietzsche a

(58:22):
little bit and maybe John Locke.

Slava (58:25):
Well, according to Cambridge University Press, it's
Arthur Schopenhauer that's mostclosely associated with the idea
that pain is reality.

Jonathan (58:34):
Mhmm. Okay.

Slava (58:35):
His philosophy supposedly emphasizes the concept of
suffering as a fundamentalaspect of human experience.
Sounds like Jonathan, but it'skinda true. Essentially, he
viewed life as inherently filledwith pain and struggle.

Jonathan (58:51):
The pain and struggle part, not necessarily inherently
filled, honestly reminds me ofViktor Frankl as well who
survived 4 Holocaust camps.

Slava (58:59):
Yeah. But Nietzsche also talked about this, but his was
more as a critique aboutreligions and metaphysical
systems. And I think if I'mremembering Nietzsche from my
associate's

Jonathan (59:12):
It's been a while. Yeah.

Slava (59:13):
Yeah. I read Nietzsche when I was in the my associate's
program. I think his critiquewas that religion doesn't offer
any valuable insights orsolutions to the problem of
suffering.

Jonathan (59:27):
Lewis talks about it too. He's got a whole book
called The Problem of Pain. No.But, anyway

Slava (59:32):
Well, let's move on to some themes. There are a few of
them that are in this book. I'llthrow out there, and maybe you
can talk to it, but I know it's,it's one that I think is central
to the book, and everybody elsewho's read it and analyzed it
says the same thing. So I thinkPalanuk was writing about this.

(59:56):
Is this consumerism and themodern life and how it can be
soul sucking, specifically howmodern society is obsessed with
consumerism?

Jonathan (01:00:07):
Yeah. That's so we're recording this just shortly
after Black Friday. And when Iwas a kid, Black Friday was what
you did. It was fun. You got inline.
You saved up your money all yearto go buy the latest graphics
card or video game or whateverat the steeply discounted rate,
supposedly. And now yeah.Supposedly. Well, honestly, I

(01:00:30):
think back in the day, they werediscounted. Not anymore, but I
think that they were previously.
At least that's what I wannabelieve with my hard earned $45
or whatever it was. But it'shonestly sad, and there's times
where I ask myself the question,am am I trapped in consumerism?
Because, like, I just upgradedmy computer. Are there ways that
I probably could've gottenaround that? Yeah.

(01:00:51):
But as a business person, it'slike, I wanna have the best tool
for the job because, man, if youadd up all the time it takes for
my computer to load andwhatever, that's time that I
could be working. So I wonderand maybe I'll throw this back
at you is, like, what's the linebetween buying really nice
stuff. Right? You know, whetherthat's a brand new Tesla
Cybertruck or it's the brand newMac computer that I just bought.

(01:01:16):
Where's the line of consumerism?
And I have an answer for this,but I I I don't wanna taint your
thoughts on it. Yeah. So where'sthe line, I guess, is the is the
question.

Slava (01:01:25):
Yes. That's a good question. Well, let me answer
your question less directly, andI think I'll

get to the point. Question?

Slava (01:01:32):
And I'll try to be brief. So what you did was you bought a
tool for your work. That that'sdifferent than buying something
just because the new MacBookcame out with the new chip, and
you're trading at trading at a 6month old Mac because the new
one has a better graphics card.

Mhmm.

Slava (01:01:53):
There is also something else in the same vein where I
like style. I like stylishclothes. I have a particular
style I like. I have adisposable income to buy clothes
whenever I want, and there'sbeen times when I bought stuff
on impulse because I'm like, oh,I really like that jacket, and
so I just buy it because I canafford it. And I like it because

(01:02:16):
I like it.
Right? The I like it the way Ilook. I like the way I feel, and
I'm gonna buy this jacket. Itdoesn't give me any self worth.
Now if I bought a jacket a weekbecause I couldn't help myself
or it filled some deep crevicewithin my soul and momentarily

(01:02:37):
gave me a, you know, a dopaminehit or some sort of feeling of
being in the in crowd, that'swhen consumerism has overtaken.
That's when you are slaved outto consumerism. And the
consumeristic culture which welive in pushes that at you all
the time. Oh, you deserve this.Treat yourself. Slay.
Get yourself a latte. Getyourself a new pair of shoes.

(01:02:59):
Whatever the heck it is, that'sthe consumeristic part of our
culture, and people will getentrapped by that. And they do
think that they would never saythis about themselves, but
they're sometimes like thenarrator who's obsessed with
furnishing his condo. Yeah.
But then it's it's empty, and soconsumeristic culture

(01:03:23):
dehumanizes people. It treatsthem like objects and leads to a
loss of real human connection.Because instead of hanging out
with your buddies at a bar oryour coworkers at a bar or,
like, going to a ballgame orwhatever, an event, an opera,
instead of hanging out withpeople and enjoying the world,

(01:03:43):
you try to fill your car, youryour house, your garage with
things. And then the day, sure,maybe you're not $40,000 in
debt, and maybe you can affordall this stuff because you have
an exorbitant amount ofdisposable income. And then the
day, you will need more and moreand more stuff to feel less

(01:04:05):
fulfilled, and that's where itis destructive.

Can you say that last sentence again? The feel more
and more

Slava (01:04:13):
Yeah.

Or buy more and more stuff to feel less fulfilled?

Slava (01:04:16):
You buy more and more stuff for supposedly a quick hit
of dopamine. You momentarilyfeel what you wanted to feel or
what you need to feel, but aftera while, the effects don't last
as long. At the end of the day,you feel just as crappy when
you're alone on a Sundayafternoon as you did the

(01:04:37):
previous week when you boughtthe other thing that gave you a
momentary relief, but didn'treally feel that need, the human
need that you have.

Yeah. Exactly. I I think it's important that we and
I've said this on, man, probablyhalf our episodes. You gotta be
starkly honest with yourself.Just call yourself out.
No one else is gonna do itunless you have real friends,
which that's a whole another canof worms, having real friends
versus not. The treat yourselfthing is huge. Huge, huge, huge

(01:05:06):
today. I mean, I do it. I getit.
I understand. Yeah. ButEverybody's doesn't it doesn't
mean it's good for us. Like,what happened to waiting for the
gratification? Working reallyhard when you're a kid because
you can only make a dollar aweek, and you need to save up
$12.
And so it's 3 months to reallyget the thing that you want. And
instead now it's, you know,well, I have a paycheck and I

(01:05:27):
have a credit card, so I'll justdo whatever I want. And you just
you wonder where all the timegoes. The stuff doesn't fill you
because it's a quick hit ofdopamine, and then you wonder
what you gotta buy next. It'sthe worst.
It's awful. Anyway, the one thatI'd like to pick as we're
winding down here is mortalityand human connection. You kinda
touched on this a minute agowhere consumerism turns people
into things. Right? That doesn'tdirectly tie with mortality, but

(01:05:52):
I think it quickly leads to itbecause if people are just
things and you use them, thenwhat if someone uses someone
who's a family member of yoursthat you care deeply about, but
they're just doing what you doto other people?
Right? And I think it's alsosome play something that we need
to look deeply in the mirror onand go, hey. We're all gonna die
one day, and it would be reallygreat if we lived with urgency.

(01:06:14):
And you you set forth to reallytry and achieve whatever you
wanted to do with this life. Andif you don't know yet, then
first question is just figuringout what you wanna do, which is
fine, but you are gonna die oneday.
It's something that we seeinspiring stories written about.
Like, oh, so and so got cancer.They started they quit their
job. They did this thing, orsomeone lost their leg, and then

(01:06:36):
they did this really great thingbecause they were struck in the
face with their own mortality.And it's when we have that, we
start living different.
And if we wanna see this reallydeep, rich, holy, authentic
world that we all, like,theorize about, then you need to
think about mortality daily. Youcould die tomorrow. Let that

(01:06:57):
sink in. Tomorrow, you're dead.That's it.
Is your life well lived? Forgetreligion for a second. Like, if
we took a book of your entirelife, was it well lived? Because
if the answer is no, then youneed to sit down and have a
conversation with yourself. Doyou wanna be a jack off?
And if you do, then you knowwhat? Go for it. I don't think
you should. You won't feelbetter about it. You're chasing

(01:07:19):
dopamine hits.
But if you wanna be a jack off,be a jack off. Fine. But, like,
address your mortality.

Slava (01:07:25):
And that's the thing. Like, you have to live a life
towards something or forsomething. And I wanna caveat
this. We're not saying that youall should be William Wallace or
Bonhoeffer or Victor Frankl. Youcould live a simple life in
middle America, work a bluecollar job, pump out kids, have

(01:07:46):
a white picket fence, a dog, and2 cars, but if that life,
whatever it looks like, it hasto be lived well.
It has to be lived for somethingoutside yourself. Otherwise, you
will feel insignificant, and youwill try to suppress the

(01:08:07):
feelings, the thoughts of yourconscience, of your soul,
pointing out your insinsignificance and mortality.
You will try to suffocate that.But if you have a life that's
well lived as a plumber in Ohioor as Bonhoeffer in in Germany,
whatever it is, William Wallace,pick your hero, You can live

(01:08:29):
that life, a peaceful life or aturbulent life. If it's lived
well, when you do facemortality, whether it's at night
in your bed as you're fallingasleep or on a battlefield, you
can face it well.

Yeah. And I that is a really good caveat because you
don't have to be the next BradPitt. It's not a pun, but I
thought it'd be a good example.But you you can be authentic and
real and embrace your ownmortality and live a really
wholesome and beneficial lifefor your community being simple,

(01:09:04):
honestly, and some people mightcall me a haughty for this, I
wish I was more simple. I justcan't be.
It's just not how I was knittogether. I I think too much. I
read too much. I have to knowthings. It's probably once a
week that I think, man, I reallywish I was simpler.
And And that doesn't mean dumberbecause some of these people are

(01:09:25):
actually brilliant if you talkto them, if you slow down far
long enough to have a coffeewith them, but I'm not. I gotta
think about a 1000000 differentthings, and it's just how I'm
how I'm put together. But, man,I'm super jealous of these
people sometimes. I've metpeople who are janitors, and
they're the happiest people inthe world. They're like, oh,
yep.
Plunge in the next toilet. Youknow how it goes. And they're

(01:09:46):
just happy. They're content,which is a better word to use.
And they, like, don't make a lotof money, but they love their
family, and they have goodrelationships.
And it's like, man, that's likewhat we as the larger society
are, quote, unquote, workingtoward, and they haven't. But
they're, you know, literallyshoveling shit that you put in

(01:10:07):
the toilet at your corporatejob. So

Slava (01:10:08):
Exactly. I think simple is still a good word because
we're not talking about simpleminded. We're just talking about
simple lives. Yeah. And Iguarantee you, the plumber from
Ohio has a much simpler

have the latest MacBook.

Slava (01:10:18):
Right. He doesn't

have the latest Tesla.

Slava (01:10:19):
But he has a normal, peaceful, simple life. And every
every life and every person hasups and downs. Family members
die. You struggle with cancer.And we mentioned this in one of
our previous episodes where,yeah, if you have a $1,000,000
in a bank account at 4.4%, thatcancer is easier to deal with
than if you're making $47,000 ayear.

(01:10:42):
Sure.

Mhmm.

Slava (01:10:43):
But you could have the $1,000,000 at 4% and still be
unfulfilled and a damaged brokenindividual, or you could have
$47,000 with a family that lovesyou. And when you come home, you
find peace despite the fact thatyou lost your mother the
previous week or despite thefact that your wife might be

(01:11:03):
struggling with the said cancer,you can still have more peace
than the guy who has all themoney in the world to pay for
every chemo treatment that, youknow, you could possibly imagine
that you would need. It'snuanced. It's a life is
complicated. It's not a simpleanswer, but it's definite the
answer is definitely not a newMacBook Thanks, Slava.

(01:11:24):
Or a new jacket for Slava.

Little taste of our own medicine is what you're
telling

Slava (01:11:27):
me? Yeah.

That's fun. Well, let's, let's call this episode a
wrap with one more side questbefore we go. I'll let you take
your pick. So we've just talkedabout pain and suffering and the
difficulty of life. We caneither stay real or we can stay
fun.

(01:11:49):
So I'm gonna read both theseoptions, and you pick one. The
first is when Tyler burns thenarrator's hand with lie, and he
wants him to wake up to reality.Is there a painful experience or
difficult experience in yourlife that ended up waking you
and teaching you something? AndI know there's a handful of them
because we talked about some ofthem during It. Or the other

(01:12:10):
side quest we could take is soapslogan where if you were gonna
run this soap company that is inthe book, what would the
company's tagline be if you hadto sell soap with a bizarre or
ironic twist like Tyler's?

Slava (01:12:24):
Well, let's go with the fun one for two reasons. We've
talked about some heavy stuff,so let's end on a lighter note.
That's a good idea. And number2, we really want to dissect the
plot more in the episodes as wego forward in our little
endeavor called side questbecause I feel like that's where

(01:12:45):
we fail the audience on some ofthese books where we talk about
the plot tangently or only talkabout 1 or 2 things that stood
out. So this was a great setupfor the book, the genre, the
themes that explores, andexplore the plot in a deeper way
next time and come back to maybesome of the themes again as we
do that, but let's end it onsomething fun.

That sounds great. So what would your soap company's
tagline be if you had to sellsoap with a bizarre or ironic
twist like Tyler's? Nice soap,asshole. Okay. Locke, literally
covered this a couple episodesago when I said that that's who
you'd be.
You'd be Locke.

Slava (01:13:22):
Yep. So I I took the lazy man lazy way out, and I told
Chad GPT, everything you knowabout me, I like Norm McDonald.
I like George Carlin, and I likeTom Segura. Write me a a name
for a soap company inspired byFight Club, and write me a silly

(01:13:42):
slogan. And so full disclosure,this is AI generated, but it's
kinda fun.
It's kinda silly, and I thinkit's fun only because it's so
what was the word I'm lookingfor? You know those memes are
that have no meaning and like,you know, meaningless meme is
meaningless? This is what thisis. So the soap name is lip

(01:14:05):
service soap, and the slogan isfor a clean break from the dirty
truth.

Mhmm.

Slava (01:14:13):
What'd you come up with? I take it you didn't take the
lazy man's way out.

Well, originally, I didn't, and then I thought about
it for a minute and decided todo the same thing because I work
at an AI first company, so I'm,like, almost exclusively working
out of multiple AI tools at oncein my 9 to 5. So my soap company
is called Rebel Suds. Alright.Laugh it up. Jag off.

(01:14:39):
Well, lather it up. Clean theslate and break the rules.
Alright. Alright. Feels like itlines up.

Slava (01:14:47):
It lines up. Mine is more non sequitur. It doesn't mean
anything, but okay.

Although, I do like lip service soap, especially
where they were getting the thefat and they were talking about,
Marla Singer's collagen that shegot from her mom. Yeah. So that
one does feel like it hitsbetter than Rebel suds.

Slava (01:15:05):
There you go.

So lip service soap. Clean the slate. Break the
rules. We'll slap them togetherjust like Space Monkey.

Slava (01:15:13):
Yeah. Well and it's a good Space Monkey, so we have to
go to bed. So we're ready forsome mayhem for next episode.
Thank you guys for joining ustoday on this journey, and next
time, Fight Club part 2, wherewe will, and I'm gonna hold us
to it, discuss the plot at somelength.

Before you vanish back to reality, share this episode
with your book loved friends. Itkeeps the quest alive and helps
other book adventurers findtheir way. See you next time on
SideQuest.

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Fight Club Part 1 - Chuck Palahniuk

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Fight Club Part 1 - Chuck Palahniuk