Fight Club Part 2 - Chuck Palahniuk - The Side Quest Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Jonathan (00:10):
Good morning, good afternoon, and good night,
wherever you're tuning in. Weare Slava and Jonathan bringing
you the SideQuest podcast wherewe talk about character
development, stories, and allthings that are world building.
And we occasionally takeSideQuest because, frankly,

Slava (00:42):
Good morning, Jonathan.

Jonathan (00:44):
Good morning, Slava.
Happy Fight Club. Happy FightClub. Wait. We can't talk about
Fight Club.

Slava (00:49):
Happy nondescript, rabble rousing in the late evenings,
early mornings? Does that work?
That tracks.

Jonathan (00:58):
Okay. Then happy that.

Slava (01:00):
Happy that. And audience, welcome to Not Fight Club. Is it
count

Jonathan (01:04):
if we owe Not Not Fight Club?

Slava (01:06):
I think so. I think Chuck would be okay. So would Tyler.

Jonathan (01:11):
Well, I was gonna say I don't care I don't care about
Chuck. Tyler's the one you gottamaybe or maybe not fess up to,
plus project mayhem.

Slava (01:18):
All that. You don't want a second kiss with Lai on your
other hand.

Jonathan (01:22):
Not, not so much. But earlier this week, you sent me a
video of Chuck on Conan O'Brien,may he rest in peace, the show,
not the person.

Slava (01:32):
He's still alive. In case

Jonathan (01:34):
that needs to be made clear. In case that needs to be
made clear, where Chuck hadpeople starting their own fight
clubs when this came out.

Slava (01:43):
Yeah. At Brigham Young University, and apparently it
was 7,000 strong. 7000 Mormonsbeamed the crap out of each
other late in the night.

Jonathan (01:53):
Hey. Only 2 guys to a fight. No shirts, no shoes. No
coffee. At a time, and nocoffee. It's gonna take a while
to finish that fight club.

Slava (02:05):
Right. And what would a what would a discussion about
Mormons be without a little,little jam about them not
drinking coffee?

Jonathan (02:13):
Well, in this case, it'd just be 2 men getting naked
and, beating the tar out of eachother.

Slava (02:20):
Yeah. I'm down. I get naked if the Mormon would be the
tired of them. Just kidding. ButI don't know.
Whatever. Mormons are fine. Youdon't Just kidding.

Jonathan (02:29):
You don't have to be naked for that?

Slava (02:31):
Right.
And for those who can't think incategories, those are just a
joke. I don't want to cause harmto Mormons. For legal purposes,
I must say that.

Jonathan (02:38):
For legal purposes. Now you sound like, you were
just waiting for the cops toroll up and put a rubber band
around your your boys.

Slava (02:46):
What kind of cops do you have in your state? Did you

Jonathan (02:48):
read this book? Oh, damn it. Yeah. Wow. Slava didn't
read the book, I guess.
So

Slava (02:55):
Yeah. I stopped reading after I passed out and peed
myself, apparently.

Jonathan (02:58):
Oh, I thought you stopped reading after Marla said
I wanna have your abortion.

Slava (03:02):
I like the line in the movie better. It's more
visceral, which she says thatwhat did she say? Oh, yeah. I
haven't been screwed like thatsince grade school.

Jonathan (03:11):
Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's weird that they changed it to
that. Right.

Slava (03:14):
Because the censors are like, no. Abortions are bad.
Pedophilia, okay. Alright. It,yeah.
Sure, censor.

Jonathan (03:21):
Doesn't track, but okay. Anyway, on today's
episode, we are going throughplot, start to finish, chapter 1
to chapter 30.

Slava (03:30):
So Buckle in. This episode is gonna rival the Joe
Rogan length.

Jonathan (03:34):
Buckle in. Let your hand off the wheel, and let us
know what you

Slava (03:39):
Close your eyes.

Jonathan (03:39):
Yeah. What you wanted to

Slava (03:41):
achieve before you died. Because death is only the
beginning.

Jonathan (03:45):
Welcome back, fellow book lovers, as we set off on
today's side quest. Be sure tohit that subscribe button so
that you never miss an episode.

Slava (03:53):
Alright. Well, let's get into the plot. So last episode,
you mentioned where we began,which is the end. We have the
narrator counting down the final10 minutes before the building
he's on is about to bedemolished by a bomb by project
mayhem. Got in his mouth.
He recalls how he knows how tobuild bombs, how to make napalm,

(04:17):
and he says that he knows thisbecause Tyler knows this. And
that's how we get thrust intothis story, which I remember you
saying is kinda circular.

Jonathan (04:26):
Yeah. It's not quite as fleshed out as it was in
terms of its circularity, but hedefinitely has this line where
he's like, he I know thisbecause Tyler knows this, and
then he starts telling us how hemet Tyler. And so he goes back.
As the first few chapters go on,we are drawn to forget that
we've been to the end of thebook because we're just immersed
in the journey now. But the endof the book is where we get

(04:50):
hooked because there's a guy onthe top of a skyscraper with a
gun in his mouth, and there's abomb countdown going off.
So now for those who have notread the book because they've
only watched the movie, the bombdoesn't go off in the book. So
that's one major difference. Andthen the other ending or the

(05:10):
ending continues on where Tylerends up in in a sane asylum, but
the chapter is written as a andwe can get into this more later,
but I think that the differenceof the movie to book is actually
pretty fun and and interesting.He's in an insane asylum written
in an analogy of being inheaven. And then one of the
angels is like, we look forwardto seeing you again soon, sir,

(05:31):
as they hand him his pills.
So it's certainly a twisty turnyfun ending, but it is not as
powerful as the book. And,honestly, people don't have the
appreciation of nuance intheaters, so it makes sense to
me that the final version is himstanding up there with Marla

(05:52):
with his face half blown off,and the buildings are exploding
around them listening to thepixies.

Slava (05:57):
And it's not just one building that is demolished in
the movie. It's all thebuildings around the one that
him and Marla are standing in.

Jonathan (06:06):
Yeah. It's powerful at the end of the movie.

Slava (06:09):
I can't say I like one over the other, but I thought it
was a powerful scene. He getsrid of Tyler, but the
consequences of his actionswhile under the control of
Tyler, they're unfolding rightin front of them. It's it's
still ambiguous like the endingin the book, but it's a
different ambiguity. You don'tknow what's gonna happen after

(06:30):
all the buildings are done.

Jonathan (06:31):
Right. Because they supposedly took down the
financial structures.

Slava (06:34):
Right.

Jonathan (06:35):
I used to like the movie better the first time I
read Fight Club, but I was alsoyounger when I first read Fight
Club. Now that I'm older, Iappreciate both of them just
differently because I have lessof a bent on cinema is better
than books because I've actuallybeen reading books for quite a
long time now and seen the I'vebegun to appreciate the nuances

(06:59):
of the depth that books can gointo that movies can't. They
just don't have time. But moviesdon't have time, and people
don't have the attention spanfor it. So to your point, I
agree that I like both of them,but I don't have to pick one
over the other.
It's a life lesson.

Slava (07:16):
It's the same with Kubrick and The Shining that
King put together. It's 2different stories. Exactly. It's
not a one to one analogy here,but the movie, although it
follows the book pretty well,it's still a different medium of
telling the stories, and it's adifferent story. If you really
wanna think about it, it's kindof a different story.

(07:37):
Yeah. You can say that aboutalmost any adaptation of a book.
Jurassic Park, for example,which I wanna cover on the
podcast, the book and the movieare similar, but it's still a
different story. Spielberg tolda different story with Jurassic
Park even though maybe he pulledin some of what Crichton wanted

(07:57):
to say with the book, which isbriefly man with technology
usually, you know, is like amonkey with a hand grenade. You
can pull that out of the movie,but not really.
It's more of a fun kinda romp tothe jungle, and things go awry,
and the heroes get away from thegiant dinosaurs. I guess what
I'm saying I'm repeating myself,but I guess what I'm saying is

(08:19):
movies and books, 2 differentmediums, and you can tell 2
different stories even using thesame source material.

Jonathan (08:25):
Yeah. I think we talked about that in an early
episode where it might have beenChina Mayville. I'm, like,
trying to remember it now.Someone can take the same story
and retell it multiple times. Ireally think actually that was
the the book.
Anyway, yeah, you can takepeople took Taming the Shrew,
and they've made it into, like,17 different movies.

Slava (08:42):
Right.

Jonathan (08:43):
But it's just like, oh, modern day, western,
Victorian, etcetera, etcetera,etcetera. That's fun. I said the
same thing about The Hobbit whenpeople were frustrated, like,
the 3 part movie that Guillermowas who then became off the
project was working on is notgonna be the same. It's like,
it's fine. Is it entertaining?
Did it do the job ofentertaining? Yes? Okay.

Slava (09:03):
Are you not entertained?

Jonathan (09:05):
Thank you. With Gladiator 2 coming out or being
out or whatever. Yeah. It didthe job. But like you said, it's
2 different anyway, bring usback to the book.

Slava (09:15):
No. Bring us back to Marla. We have Marla introduced
in the beginning, which is theend, and the way he meets Marla,
I think, is fun. So in the nextchapters, he says that he can't
sleep. He's overwhelmed.
He doesn't have a sense orpurpose, and he's like a ship

(09:36):
sailing on the waters withoutany guidance, whatever the right
analogy there is. So he goes tothe doctor and explains his woes
to him. Doctor says, you wannasee some people with some pain?
Go check out the guys at thesupport group for testicular
cancer. And he seems to findsome solace there and peace, and
he's able to sleep after meetingBob.

(09:58):
The big cheese bread. The bigcheese bread, bitch tits. A
quick side quest. You see himstill using that kinda language
where he's still it'sirreverent. Right?
So he's in the support groups,at least from my perspective.
There's still this sense ofirreverence towards the people
around him. It's only later thathe finds some compassion for Bob

(10:22):
after Bob dies. He gets shot bycops. His name was Robert
Paulson.
His name was Robert Paulson.But, anyway, side quest over the
introduction of Marla is fun. Ithink the movie does a great job
introducing her visually as thiskind of almost ominous person,

(10:42):
like this ominous presence whereshe's just sitting in the back,
and the narrator's world againstarts falling apart because he
thinks he's found himself like amagic pill almost with these
support groups, and in comesMarla, and the narrator sees
Marla behind every door that heenters. She's in every support

(11:06):
group that gives him the piecethat he's looking for.

Jonathan (11:09):
Yeah. He becomes obsessed with her in some ways.
We don't actually explore thatvery much. It's just a matter of
fact for the story. It's one ofthose things that I think if
Fight Club were to be longer,I'd like to see a little more of
that.
But in this case, and I'mchanging my ways, I don't think

(11:29):
it's a bad thing that she didn'thave the play that I'm saying
that if Fight Club was longerbecause it didn't I I guess I'll
say this. It didn't add to thestory, and so it wasn't
necessary.

Slava (11:43):
Explain that. Is she the catalyst for Tyler appearing?
Yeah. Tyler and him meeting on aon a nude beach, which is him
meeting himself. That's wherehis personality splits.
Is the Marla the one that,instigates Tyler? Because this
is just another nail in thenarrator's proverbial coffin
where he life falling apart, nodirection, can't sleep, no

(12:07):
purpose. Doctor says check outthis support group. He does. It
actually helps him, and alongcomes Marla.
They have a little spat whereabout splitting the support
groups, exposing each other asfrauds that are threatening each
other, then Tyler shows up. Sois Marla the catalyst for Tyler
showing up?

Jonathan (12:25):
I don't think so. But to get to your first question,
you asked why I don't think thatit was necessary to have more of
her. My point was that I thinkthat it wasn't necessary to keep
more of his obsession with herand discovering, like, why that
was because that wasn't thepoint of the story. So I think
that if he would have added thatin the current rendition and

(12:46):
not, like, added anything else,it would have taken away from
the story. That's the specificthing that I'm saying.
As for whether or not I thinkMarla was the instigator in
terms of Tyler being born, ifyou will. I'd say no because she
well, because kinda tying it topart 1 where she didn't really

(13:09):
get as much play in the book,and so it's really literally
just him. Was she a piece of it?Sure. But she wasn't the main
thing.
I mean, he's just a brokenindividual who hated his life
and didn't see a way out, and sohe started he he invented a new
self, which can be reallyhealthy. This was not one of
those instances, but it can bereally healthy.

Slava (13:30):
Yeah. If in your efforts to rebrand yourself, for lack of
a better term

Jonathan (13:37):
that's that's a stretch. That's a that's one way
to put it.

Slava (13:41):
Yeah. To rebrand yourself, to improve yourself,
you break your own mind and havea split personality. That's
really not improving yourself.Thanks, Shallan. You're welcome.
I have things to say aboutShallan, but, we'll save that
for the Shallan episode. Yeah.So Tyler let's talk about how
Tyler and him meet and ifthere's any anything that stood

(14:03):
out to you. Is him being in anude beach just another coping
mechanism or him trying to dosome sort of, oh, what's the
word I'm looking for? Is itdoing something that's

Jonathan (14:13):
Makes him feel alive? Makes him feel alive. Yes. I
think so. Because I don't recallfrom the front end of the book
where we actually see him on anude beach because the book
starts with the end of ProjectMayhem, and then he's, like and
that's where I met Tyler.
But it isn't until later closerto the actual end moment where
he's, like, Tyler and I met on anude beach when he's trying to

(14:34):
figure out, like, who is TylerDurden. And he's, like, oh, I'm
Tyler Durden, and he has thisrealization. So I think it's one
of those moments, like, theBlarney Stone or, like, I went
to college and then called mydad, and he's like, well, now
you should find a wife orwhatever. And he's like, these
these flashback snippets thatare just kinda left out.

Slava (14:52):
Yeah. Okay.

Jonathan (14:53):
Oh, actually, I do remember Tyler using Driftwood
in the sand. I just don'tremember it being a nude beach.
I think that's the thing that's,like, hiccuping me my my brain
because I don't remember itbeing a nude beach. I'm sure
it's there in the book, but I Ijust skipped over that point.

Slava (15:10):
Yeah. I remember it being a nude beach.

Jonathan (15:12):
I bet you do, you and your Mormon friends.

Slava (15:14):
Yes. Fighting nude on the beach. That's, one of the field
trips. Okay. Weird.
Don't knock until you try it.

Jonathan (15:21):
I I carry on. Next chapter.

Slava (15:25):
But before we move on, adventurers, are you enjoying
the side quest? Want us to covermore transgressive novels? Go to
our Instagram account and sharesome of your favorite
transgressive stories in thecomments or DM us. Maybe we'll
cover your favorite story in thecoming months.

Jonathan (15:42):
So we meet Tyler, and then I wanna call him Edward
Norton, but we don't actuallyknow his name. So we meet Tyler,
and then the narrator has to goback to his life. He goes back
to his job that he hates. Hecontinues walking us through the
things that he's struggling withwhere he's like, I I hate the
stuff that I buy. I hate mylife.
I hate all these all thesethings. Also tells us about the,

(16:03):
the job that he has where henotes whether or not they're
gonna do a car recall because ofsafety issues. And then he flies
around and does theinvestigation and blah blah
blah, which leads to his quote,unquote insomnia, which we later
find out is not actuallyinsomnia. He's just 2 people.
One of the times when he comeshome, he comes home to an
exploded apartment, which is thesecond explosion in the book so

(16:26):
far, even though the first onedidn't actually go off at the
beginning.

Slava (16:28):
So he's making bombs and blowing up his own apartment.
And his own life. And I thinkhere's where the destruction on
the condo is the, like, theturning point, right, of the
book. It's now a symbol of himrejecting whether it's the
consumerism, whether it's hisold life, his old philosophy of
of things. He now well, Tylerdoes it, but he destroys

(16:52):
everything that he loved so hecan start anew.
And then we get him in the barwhere Tyler, which is himself,
asks to be hit leading to thefirst fight of Fight Club. It's
very creative on Palanuk's partthat the first fight he has is
with himself, and the movie, Ithink, portrays this also really

(17:17):
well. It's a humorous portrayalwhere you figure out then the
movie that Tyler is EdwardNorton, Edward Norton is Tyler,
narrator, are the same people.The people who are watching him,
it's Edward Norton kicking hisown ass.

Jonathan (17:31):
Mhmm. Not only is his first fight with himself, but
his last fight is with himselfas well.

Slava (17:36):
Yeah. So the whole book really can be the narrator's
internal, external, mental, andemotional struggle with
everything around him, his wholehis whole being and his
immediate surroundings.

Jonathan (17:49):
A 100%. How long do you think it took Palanuk
palanuk to come up with therules for Fight Club? Oh. If
he's just sitting there staringat the wall, and he's like, what
are the rules for Fight Club?

Slava (18:02):
Oh, yeah. This goes back to some conversations we've had
over the year of this podcastwhere how do authors come up
with anything? You have to buildthe world. You have to build
rules for the world, the magicsystem, the political system,
the socioeconomic system to makeit all fit and be believable.
This falls under world building,I think, to some extent.
Yeah. What rules make sense forthe story, which is

(18:26):
transgressive, and we discussedthat in the previous episode. I
won't belabor that here. But fora transgressive story that's
supposed to be a socialcommentary, How do you come up
with some of these rules? Sothey're weird and kinda off in a
way because they're ironic.
Right? So this is this fightclub that's supposed to bring in
men to explore the catharsis ofprimal masculinity and give them

(18:51):
a purpose and give them asetting where they can be
themselves, but you can't talkabout it.

Jonathan (18:57):
Which holds irony because especially when Chuck
wrote this book, that was one ofthe things he was reeling
against. Right? Yeah. And so I'msure that, honestly, I think
that that one and maybe that'swhy he emphasizes it as the
first two rules. It's like, youdon't talk about Fight Club.
You don't talk about Fight Club.Like, oh, men aren't allowed to

(19:19):
talk about things. They aren'tallowed to talk about their
fights, their internalstruggles, their internal
whatevers, and he he puts it astwo rules,

Slava (19:27):
the first two rules. One could be a statement about the
secrecy of the fight club,meaning, hey. This is our thing.
We don't talk about it, but alsowe don't talk about fight club.
So there's like the dualmeanings for each of the rules.
Right? So there's there's alayer to it that is fascinating,

(19:47):
and this is why I love this kindof fiction. And I mentioned this
in a previous episode, thecommentary on social structures
and tradition, some of which arejust arbitrary. If you think
about it, if you break themdown, they're like, well, why
are we doing this? Well, becausewe've always done it this way.
And then there are traditionsand social structures that are

(20:08):
born out of, I think, somebenevolence even if it's nobody
thinks about it. Uh-huh. I'mgonna do an evil thing. But the
structures that we set up,they're benevolent, and they're
destructive consequences of theefforts of the people who set
them up. And we all participatein them.
I'm not saying there's a cabalof people out there pulling some
strings and screwing with us. Ifthere are, we all participate

(20:29):
willingly with it to somedegree.

Jonathan (20:32):
To some degree. Anyway, that was my little side
quest about asking about therules for for fight club, which
shall not be named that whichshall not be named.

Slava (20:40):
The club that should not be named. Yes. So Tyler and the
narrator quickly joined forces.Here's the thing. I I it's this,
again, goes back to why I likePalanook and books like this.
So the narrator discovers thatconsumerism is a horrible,
destructive thing. He hates it.He hates his job. He's part of

(21:00):
the machine, but then he becomesa person that is participating
in it. You know, he might sayironically or as a way to buck
against the system, but theybegin a soap company where they
use human fat and they sell itto fancy boutiques and designer
stores, so they areparticipating in consumerism.

(21:23):
And here we have Palanook almostemphasizing, like, its grotesque
origins, consumerism that isdestructive, what we discussed
in the previous episode.

Jonathan (21:32):
Mhmm.

Slava (21:32):
But for the narrator, if we're gonna do an in world
critique, the narrator is stillparticipating in the thing he
hates no matter what he hisintent behind it is.

Jonathan (21:42):
He is, but I I think that there's an unspoken
specifically because ProjectMayhem is birthed out of this.
There's an unspoken, like,cleansing that's about to come
to consumerism because of them,but they need to fund it, and
they're funding it byconsumerism. Like, how do you
kill the beast? You become thebeast. Do you fight it from the
outside?

(22:02):
Or or do you get in the insideand then you destroy it?

Slava (22:04):
Double agents of consumerism.

Jonathan (22:06):
If we can. I mean, it's certainly not that obvious
in the story, but I think thatsoap is a really fun symbol that
is almost a side character thatChuck put in the book.

Slava (22:18):
Right. Right. There's a a note that I found on
cliffnotes.com for those who areinterested that they have a
really good synopsis of thebook. This is what they write,
and I think it's fascinating. InFight Club, soap serves as a
reminder of the violence andcynicism underlying modern
living.
As a product, it's oftenassociated with clinginess and

(22:41):
beauty, but by detailing thecrude and morbid process which
the soap is made by these 2, thenovel, Palanook, conversely
associates the soap withugliness and pain. So I thought
that yeah. So when Tylerexplains that the so first soap

(23:02):
came from human sacrifices anddiscusses animal testing
required to make soap, he showsthe sadistic hidden nature of a
product that people use everyday, end quote. And in the book,
they don't use animal productsor anything. They use human
product.
They use human fat and sell itback to the humans.

Jonathan (23:22):
That had the fat removed from the product.

Slava (23:24):
They had the fat removed. In the movie, I think, Norton
says, and we sell their fatasses back to them.

Jonathan (23:29):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But the paper company well, the
Paper Street Soap Company, if Ican be a little more articulate,
quickly grows. And this unlessyou wanted to take a quick
detour about Tyler and Marla'ssexual relationship.

Slava (23:47):
I wanna get into that, but let's finish the soap. Let's
get clean and then get into thesex part.

Jonathan (23:52):
Great. Let's let's do it. Starts to build into Project
Mayhem. They start to recruitpeople who are looking for
purpose. And I believe lastepisode, we spoke somewhat
in-depthly about part of theissue with masculinity today is
not having purpose.
This is a almost a bibleversion, not like the book the

(24:13):
Bible, but like a an allinclusive, authoritative,
directional book Bible, whereit's like, yeah, you can
literally give anybody anypurpose. And as long as they
believe in it, they will feelgood about what they're doing.
Whether it's in America or it'sin a 3rd world country and
someone's in tribes or if theyare terrorists, if they believe

(24:35):
in the purpose, they will movein that direction, and they will
do it with smiles on theirfaces. So Project Mayhem, to me,
it might start with soap, but itbecomes a solution for people
who are purposeless,

Slava (24:48):
which is the men. Right. I'm glad you said the thing
about the terrorist because Iwas gonna chime in and say that
whether it's the red pillmovement, the white pill
movement, there's all these pillmovements in our society right
now, and some of those movementstaken to their logical
conclusion are not any betterand maybe even worse than the

(25:12):
previous experience or theprevious type of existence for
these folks. And when you havedisillusioned, purposeless men
or anybody that are easilymanipulated, when you give them
something to live for, they willgo down a path even if it's
violent and it's brutal, andthen that begs the question

(25:34):
specifically here, are the SpaceMonkeys is the Space Monkeys'
obedience to Tyler better orworse than their previous lives?
And you could say it's better insome way, but the way forward
let me say it this way.
So they find this purpose givento them by Tyler slash narrator.

(25:54):
Okay. Good. But the path forwardafter that, it's not that much
better because the purpose thatthey have now is pushing the
boundaries, not in it all in agood way.

Jonathan (26:06):
Well, it's pushing societal boundaries that are pre
agreed upon. Like, don't walkinto someone's house and murder
them. Don't put a gun tosomeone's head, and we don't
have to go down this rabbithole. But there is an underlying
moral fiber that exists inmodern societies that we've sort
of all agreed to. Where thatcomes from, I think that you and

(26:28):
I probably more aligned on thatthan other people, which is why
when you start to talk aboutmoral topics, people are like,
well, you can't do that.
And it's like, well, that's amoral argument. And if you're
gonna make a moral argument, youneed to state where your morals
are gonna come from, but that'snot how people function. They
function off of emotion, and sothey feel like you shouldn't be
able to kick someone's door downand murder them or tie a rubber

(26:50):
band around their balls andthreaten them. But the thing
that we don't mix in withmorality is that, like, power
exists in the world. The king ofthe jungle is the lion.
He doesn't care about your moralstruggles. He's still the lion.
So you can have your moralmorality all day, but you need

(27:10):
to also factor in, like, whatdoes a healthy use of power look
like? And I think that this isgoing back to your point of,
like, are they better or worse?They are not better off because
they are becoming that whichthey don't like, that which
they're fighting against, thismassive power structure, and
it's like, well, now they'vebecome the power structure.

(27:31):
Does that make sense?

Slava (27:32):
That makes perfect sense, and it all comes down to
worldview. I know I've said thisa 1,005 times, but everything
comes down to worldview. We are

Jonathan (27:41):
all worldview? Sorry. Keep going.

Slava (27:44):
Yes. I I like Marla.

Jonathan (27:46):
We can we can sidequest on that a minute. I
just wanted to drop that line.

Slava (27:49):
So it all comes down to worldview. We're all given the
same evidence. Every singleperson sees the same evidence,
whether it's scientificevidence, metaphysical evidence,
and I'm talking about somethingas mundane, and it's not really
in the grand scheme of thingsmundane, but, like, the law of
gravity, the scientificquestions and answers to the

(28:11):
speed of light or the universe,whatever. We are all given the
same evidence. We're all in thesame world, but our worldview,
whether you're going back to themorality question, a strict
materialist or a person whobelieves there's more than just
matter in this world, we willlook at that evidence and based
on our presuppositions withoutreally thinking about it to your

(28:34):
point, have an opinion.
And oftentimes, this is wherethe discussions in the
marketplace of ideas become soheated because we all come with
certain presuppositions andcertain things that we believe
are right and correct, and thisis the way things go, we really
don't think about where am Igetting my morality from? Why do
I think that kicking down doorsor tying rubber bands around

(28:56):
testicles is a bad thing? Why ismurder bad? Why is tax evasion
bad? As we're recording this, aCEO of a health insurance
company was just shot in thestreet, and the amount of hate
that is online is notsurprising, but it's a plethora
of people going, well, too bad.

(29:18):
I I would care if he was anormal human being, and he's not
because he's a CEO of a, youknow, of a health insurance
company. Yeah. And so the pointis and we can get into Marla and
the sexual relationship withTyler slash narrator, but I
think your point is valid. I'mglad you said it. We all come to
the same evidence, and whenwe're critiquing something, and

(29:41):
here, when Palynac is critiquingsomething, he is exposing that.
This is what I'm getting at inmy Slava talks in 7 arcs before
he gets to the point kinda way.He is exposing that there are
certain things that we just takefor granted as right, wrong, or
indifferent, and the world thatthese guys live in, it's almost

(30:02):
arbitrary. Like, these rules,what I mentioned just a few
minutes ago, some of thesesocietal structures are almost
arbitrary, and you're like, why?Why is this thing a thing? Why
do we have to live like this?
Why does corporate America haveto be a soul sucking
healthscape? Why can't we justgo to work and do insurance
claims and still come home andenjoy our lives, and we enjoy
them because we've got apaycheck from the stupid job,

(30:24):
and now we're doing whateverwe're doing. We're eating
dinner. We're taking the wifeout to a show. Why does the the
machine create these structures,these traditions, if you will?
And there's no answer for it. Sowhen a book comes like, this
comes along and says, all thisis horseshit. It's great because
there's people like there likePalanuk that try to awaken

(30:44):
something in us. Maybe he's noteven thinking about it in such a
grand scale, but I think itaccomplishes it.

Jonathan (30:49):
Well, yeah, I don't think that he was and this is
not a slight against him, but Idon't think he was that
intelligent when he was writingthis. I think he was just angry.
Emotion is a great way to well,writing is a great way to
process emotion, and emotionprocess through writing can
become something that kickstarts your career like it did
for him with Fight Club. It'sincredible. So I don't have any
more commentary on on thosethings.

(31:10):
I know we wanted to move intoMarla and Tyler's sexual
relationship, so take it away,Bullwinkle.

Slava (31:16):
So if you're following along, we're currently in
chapter 6 to 10. Fight Club hasstarted soap making businesses
in full swing, and we have Marlaand Tyler developing a romantic
well, well, romantic. Purelysexual relationship. I'm sure
there's some romantic feelings,but they're a banging, and the

(31:38):
narrator is jealous of Tyler.

Jonathan (31:41):
If paper if Paper Street Soap Company's a
knockin', don't come a rockin'.Or if it's a rockin', don't come
a knockin'. Never mind.

Slava (31:48):
Yeah. If there's if there's soap on our rope on the
door handle, don't come aknockin'. If you know, you know.

Jonathan (31:57):
Whatever. Yeah. So Narrator's jealous of Tyler.

Slava (32:00):
Narrator's jealous of Tyler. I think this is just part
of the narrator's process ofprocessing

Jonathan (32:10):
his own bullcrap. It's his dissociation. Yeah. He wants
to have a relationship with awoman, and I'll just say
relationship because this one'spurely sexual, but it's still a
relationship. And then, youknow, the story concludes where
they're like, hey.
Actually, I think I like you. Iwanna protect you in a very
Tyler sort of way. It's not badto recognize that you want

(32:33):
something. It's what you do withthat recognition, and the
narrator doesn't, well, hedoesn't make the great choices
in the early stages of the book.

Slava (32:43):
No. But Marla as a character, I I find her
fascinating. She's obsessed withdeath. She is in this love
triangle of sorts between thenarrator and Tyler Durden for,
well, for all intents andpurposes, they're 2 different
people.

Jonathan (32:59):
Correct.

Slava (33:00):
Tyler is Tyler, and the narrator is still he hasn't
reached his full potential forlack for a better term.

Jonathan (33:08):
Sure. I mean, that's true.

Slava (33:10):
I I just I just find her as a person fascinating, and
this is the disrupting part ofher. She's disrupting the
narrator's world in a lot ofdifferent ways with her coming
to the support groups, And thenwhen he doesn't really
understand what's going on withher and Tyler, well, he apart

(33:30):
from the sex, he's like, whatthe hell is going on? Why is
Tyler with Marla? Marla'sencroaching in a different part
of my life, but she is there forthe whole journey. That's why I
asked the question, did Marlatrigger Tyler, or was Tyler
there and Marla latched ontoTyler because of whatever the

(33:51):
hell her problems are?
Tyler doesn't give a crap aboutanything. She finds that
attractive, but then really it'sthe same damn person. Yeah. Or
or maybe maybe it's the narratorbecause reviewing everything
through his lens, he's thenarrator of the book. Maybe
Marla doesn't even see adifference between the narrator

(34:12):
and Tyler because sometimes shetalks to the narrator as he is
Tyler because he was just withher as Tyler just a few hours
ago.

Jonathan (34:20):
Yeah. I don't think she views him differently. I
think she just views him as anormal man, quote, unquote,
gaslighting her. That wasn't aterm back then. But based on his
back and forth, like, did wehave sex?
I knew you were gonna get likethis. No. Did we did we have
sex? And, like, Tyler's startingto uncover what he's been doing

(34:41):
when he wasn't himself. But forher, they're the same erratic,
single integrated person basedon her responses.

Slava (34:50):
And what I find interesting is later when she
can tell the difference, shechose to like, quote, unquote,
the narrator instead of Tyler.

Jonathan (35:02):
Yeah. That is interesting. And we don't get, a
whole lot of explanation onthat.

Slava (35:06):
No. That just happens.

Jonathan (35:08):
Because it's it's all first person sort of or second
person maybe, I guess, we couldcall it. 2nd person sounds
funnier.

Slava (35:14):
And it's funny because she seems to have a better moral
code or a stronger moral codethan the narrator. The
narrator's this empty shell inthe beginning. Everything sucks,
and woe is me, and my life ispurposeless, and some of those
things are real things that he'sexperiencing, so I'm not trying
to diminish anything. But Marlais cynical. She's obsessed with

(35:37):
death.
She rejects at the same timeTyler's solutions, Tyler's
methods to fixing the issues.She might even understand the
narrator and sympathize andempathize and even have the same
struggles, but she rejectsTyler. I think she calls the
police after he murderssomebody, so I find her

(35:58):
fascinating because of thesethings. She's disruptive on so
many levels. As she entersnarrator's life, she's the how
do I say this?
I don't wanna wax toophilosophical, but she's almost
Jack's throbbing heart? Yes.She's Jack's throbbing heart.
Exact exactly. But she as thedisruptor, she actually might be

(36:19):
better for the narrator thanTyler, and that might seem like
an obvious statement, but Tyleris necessary for him to grow in
world.
Right? Tyler is necessary forhim to grow, the narrator, but
Marla is almost a better thingfor him. Well, they're both

(36:40):
catalysts

Jonathan (36:41):
for his life because, to quote you, he's a shell of a
person. And this is the thingthat, yeah, I mean, we kinda
circle around with so manybooks. Catalysts are required
for change. Catalysts arerequired for science. Catalysts
are required for everything.
Like, something has to occur forsomething else to occur. It
seems silly to say that, but,like, nothing changes if nothing

(37:02):
changes. And with where narratorwas early in the book, he hated
his job. He hated everythingabout his life. And then, like,
2 different entities came to himto be the catalysts for
different things, like teachinghim a version of masculinity and
then teaching him what it's liketo have a relationship with a

(37:24):
woman.

Slava (37:24):
Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. We're given a
glimpse of how far Tyler hasovertaken the narrator's life.
In their work as banquetwaiters, Tyler and the narrator
corrupt various foods served towealthy people.
So they're again bucking againstthat system. Customers of the
hotel they work at, they deemthem out of touch and

(37:47):
indoctrinated into thematerialistic propaganda of
modern society. It's almost likethis is business. It's not
personal. Right?
They do these malicious thingsto humiliate these folks, but
it's for the greater good. Sothey're peeing and coming and
food and doing all sorts ofdisgusting things, but they seem

(38:08):
to be doing it out of this, whatwhat they see is the greater
calling of destroying that whichis

Jonathan (38:16):
It's the underdog narrative. We're being
oppressed, so, therefore, we cando whatever we need to where
it's like, well, when Braveheartdoes it, it's cool. But when I
take a piss in the the TomKossoop, that's not okay.

Slava (38:30):
Right. So they they act out against with these wealthy
individuals, which they see asrepresentatives of the system
that keeps them sociallymarginalized. But wouldn't you
say that as the narrator doesthis, it's him actually
marginalizing himself anddegrading himself? He's not
initiating any positive change.It's not like the people that,

(38:54):
like Yeah.
Consumed his piss during when hethey ate the clam chotters, and
I'm like, oh, okay. I'll stopbeing a bad consumer and a bad
wealthy person.

Jonathan (39:03):
Right. The actions that the narrator takes are that
of a child throwing a tantrum.

Slava (39:08):
Yeah. Absolutely.

Jonathan (39:09):
That's all that's happening. There's no positive
change because there's nopositive because and this is the
thing that people don't don'tget in is, like, you can react
out of emotion, but emotion'snot gonna change something until
you have direction. Anddirection can't happen unless
you have purpose, and purposecan't have happen unless you've
spent time thinking.

Slava (39:27):
Yeah.

Jonathan (39:27):
Those things are all tied together. That is a chain
of events or chain of, ofthought that is required if you
wanna really change things forthe positive. But the thing is,
narrator doesn't wanna changethings for the positive. He just
wants to tear something down,which is like the Joker, which
is fine, but he's not a catalystfor positive change. He's a

(39:48):
child throwing a tantrum.
And so, yeah, let's assume thatproject let's, like, just pause
the book for a second. ProjectMayhem, Fight Club, they don't
happen. He's just a waiter doingthis. Cool. So then you're just
a degenerate.
That's all that you are, and youcan go home and laugh with your
buddies and whatever, but, like,you're just as bad as them, but
you're poorer.

Slava (40:09):
Because you're not an agent of change in a way that is
positive or constructive. You'rejust literally coming in
somebody's soup.

Jonathan (40:19):
And and this gets to that, like, moral through line
that we've brushed on a coupletimes. It's like, 2 negatives
don't make a positive. That'snot how this works in morality.
2 negatives are sometimes anegative. Now to quote
Braveheart again, like,sometimes killing can provide,
like, victory and liberation,but it's not a guarantee.

(40:41):
Like, just because you did thatdoesn't mean that it it's
equated to being right.

Slava (40:46):
And here's where I think Marla having a stronger moral
code than the narrator is shown,and we're now in a moving into
kind of the the next section,which is chapters 11 through 15.
And all the the stuff that we'vejust discussed is happening.
Them selling the fat to the richpeople, soap made out of fat,
peanut ejaculating into food,and Tyler starts sending Marla's

(41:12):
mom her own fat as soap. And soMarla discovers this, and she
loses her shit, understandablyso, and she trashes the Paper
Street house. And what I findironic is the narrator seems to
care very little for Tyler'shouse being destroyed, but when
his own apartment was blown up,he tells the detective he felt

(41:37):
like himself was blown up alongwith all his possessions.
So there's this weird dichotomyor bifurcation, and it's
literally a person with splitpersonality, but it goes deeper
than that. Right? This issupposed to be a social
critique. So tying it back toyour child comment, Tyler is
there, and Tyler is acting outon behalf of the narrator. It's

(41:59):
that pendulum swing.
It's a person that is empty andbroken and without purpose, so
he does all these things thatare, you know, turned up to 11,
and they're destructive. Andhe's projecting, and he's
rebelling, and he is attackingthat which he thinks is
marginalizing him, but hedoesn't really care for

(42:20):
anything. Like, he cares stillat this moment in, you know,
chapters 11 through 15. He stilljust cares for himself. He still
is internally focused.
Because even if Marla wasTyler's girlfriend and Marla
kinda annoyed him, the fact thathe doesn't care for her and then
when she's destroying his houseand Tyler's house, he kinda

(42:41):
doesn't care about that, Itseems to me that he's more than
a child. He there's there's He'sundeveloped. He's undeveloped.
Yes. That is that is a goodthank you.
He's a child in the way hereacts, and even as a man who
is, you know, supposedly has ajob and can take care of himself

(43:04):
and pay bills, he's stillundeveloped.

Jonathan (43:07):
Yeah. But that that's and that's so we you know, Chuck
wrote this similar to Robert whowrote Ball. I can't remember
Robert's last name, but, like,they he wrote this out of
frustration. And so, like,there's a cycle here of men
being frustrated with the factthat society is, quote, unquote,
oppressing them. And it's like,okay.
I get it. I understand. But thatdoesn't change the fact that you

(43:29):
have to develop to be able tonavigate that issue of life.
Like, that is a requirement. Ifyou're going to sort through
that which you feel isoppression, because I'm not
gonna make commentary on that,because some of it is, some of
it isn't.
And to draw the lines is justtoo much for an episode like
this. You have to develop to beable to handle it. Period.

(43:51):
That's it. That's the thought.
That's, like, required. It's whypeople are why some people just
continue to smoke weed and andjust, like, hang out and laze
around or, like, have theirtheir job and feel like they can
never get ahead, or sometimesthey don't smoke weed and they
feel like they just can't getahead. And it's like, okay. I
get that. Life is hard, period.

(44:11):
Also another fact. Regardless ofthe cards you were dealt, you
have to develop to be able tonavigate the waters that are in
front of you. And if you don'tdevelop, you can't navigate the
waters, period. Kick against thegoads as long as you want, fight
against it, pee in someone'ssoup, but if you are not going
to develop, and most peoplechoose not to because they're

(44:32):
lazy, in my opinion, and I guessI'll say this too. I've been one
of these people.
And if you've listened for a lotof episodes, you probably put
that together, and I think I'vesaid it before, but I've been
one of these people who didn'tchange. But you know what? I
still had to navigate life, andI always felt like the victim,
and I was but, eventually, whenyou start picking up
responsibility and start tocraft and carve yourself the way
that Michelangelo carved a blockof marble, you start to have

(44:55):
respect for yourself. When youhave respect for yourself, you
can go, oh, I actually canhandle a whole lot. I I can
navigate these waters.
It doesn't mean you're gonna geta perfect life, but it's easier
because you're able to carry theburden. You've grown in
strength, and you have to getout of this mentality of, oh,
woe is me. Nothing's ever gonnahappen. It's never gonna happen

(45:16):
for me. Blah blah blah.
It's like, cool. Then it won'tbecause you're actually not
doing anything. Anyway, that'smy little tirade against the
philosophy of air and anarchy,which is what Fight Club is also
about with Project Mayhem.That's why it always falls apart
because we're buckling againstthe machine.

Slava (45:31):
It's a rage against the machine. Anarchy is the way to
go, and then you get dudescoming in clam chowder. You're
like, well, you're you're notdoing what you think you're
doing. But moving on towards theend of this section, the
narrator returns to remainingmen together meeting. He
discovers that all thesetesticular cancer survivors are

(45:54):
absorbed by Fight Club, so theyare now celebrating their
masculinity or trying to get intouch with their masculinity,
which they thought they lostbecause of the loss of their
testicles by physical pain andbeating the crap out of each
other.
This almost negates thesignificant emotional work of
the support group, and now theyfind meaning in beating the crap

(46:19):
out of each other. So the theviolence and degradation of
Fight Club and being part ofProject Mayhem, Tyler, the
narrator, has pulled these guysinto, into this world of his,
this new world of his. Now thebrushes with death are portrayed
more attractive.

Jonathan (46:35):
They become heroic, if you will.

Slava (46:37):
Yeah. So now this is essential to my male experience
rather than any emotional,psychological, philosophical, if
you will, growth as we grapplewith death and masculinity. And
what does it mean? I don't haveany testicles, but I'm still a
man. Now what does it mean inthis new reality that I find

(46:58):
myself in?
The narrator, instead of helpingthem, and he's an imposter. He's
a tourist just like Marlon inthis world, but instead of
helping them in any way, and howcan you if you're an imposter,
he brings them into his worldand doesn't help them at all.
Correct. But Marla here, also atthe end of this section, she has
cancer. There's a legitimatepossibility that she has cancer,

(47:21):
and this is the closest thatshe's ever come to death apart
from the sort of fake suicideattempt that she had.
This is actually what she wants.She wants to experience death.
She wants to get close to deathbecause she thinks that'll make
her feel alive or whatever, butinstead of making her feel more
alive, it just causes hersadness. She becomes melancholy.

(47:42):
She says, well, I guess I don'twanna know if the lumps are
malignant or benign because youknow what?
Whatever. I might die sometimes.I wish that I would die at any
moment. Marla can't control thispart of her life, but she seems
to have a better response thanthe narrator does to the things
he can't control because heresponds by being a degenerate,

(48:03):
like you said.

Jonathan (48:04):
Mhmm.

Slava (48:05):
Marla's response at the end of this section is much more

Jonathan (48:09):
It's nihilism. Developed. Yeah. It's also

Slava (48:12):
it was all of it's nihilism, but if you're gonna
compare the 2 the 2 world viewshere, like, Marla's is more
developed. At least she's kindalike, okay. Well, I guess I
might die. I'm not gonna go beatsomebody up or shit in
somebody's souffle.

Jonathan (48:28):
I think I missed that line. I I don't remember reading
that one. Seems a little moreinvolved.

Slava (48:34):
Yeah. It's in the epilogue. Oh,

Jonathan (48:36):
okay. Got it.

Slava (48:38):
Which I'm writing in my opinion.

Jonathan (48:40):
There it is. That makes more sense.

Slava (48:43):
I'm actually Chuck Palahniuk. At night, I am Chuck
Palahniuk.

Jonathan (48:46):
You don't look like the guy in the video you sent
me. Gonna be honest. Catfished.Author catfishing. So I wanna
get back to something that maybewas obvious for a bunch of other
people, but, as we've beendissecting the book as I reread
it and and, you know, watchedthe movie and have been thinking
about it, The entire book ishonestly a more developed

(49:08):
version, I think, than whatRobert tried to do with Ball
where he was also angry.
Right? So Robert and Chuck bothwrote books because they were
angry young men. Okay. Fine.Robert addressed just power.
Right? We talked about thatduring the episodes with Ball.
Zubair came on, talked to usabout Ball in particular, which

(49:29):
was kind of fun. And in thisinstance, Chuck is basically
dissecting the elements ofmasculinity. It's having
testicles.
It's having a relationship witha woman. It's crafting yourself.
It's taking hold of power.Right? Each of these different
things, it's beingentrepreneurial.

(49:50):
And, you know, if you think I'mjust reading into this, like,
drop it in the comments. That'sfine. But I think that he
unconsciously or subconsciouslyactually was trying to just
figure out what he was what it'slike to be a man. Like, what
does it mean to be a man? Is ityour testicles?
Is it that you got in a fight?And I think he explored it super

(50:13):
well in the narrative that isFight Club. But that only really
that epiphany kind of only cameto me in the last 3 minutes, if
I can be honest, where it'slike, there are all these things
because the question is, like,well, what does it mean to be
masculine? What does it mean tobe a man? And there are a bunch
of things that he explores inthat.

Slava (50:34):
And in the next section here, chapter 16 to 20, all the
efforts, if you wanna call themthat, become focused outward.
Project Mayhem, they're nowintent on changing society. So
no longer are they just doingthis to feel alive or to find

(50:55):
purpose or to feel like men.They're now and this is a
natural evolution of groups likethis. They now focus outward.
Fight Club was meant to be asecret. It was something that
this group of men did together,and it was very dependent on its
members spilling a secret toincrease its ranks is the irony.

(51:16):
But it was inward focused, andnow they are ready to fight the
machine, ready to attack thepowers that be, so it's no
longer brawls and basements.This is the next logical step
for them. They are now willingto inflict random violence even

(51:37):
on unwilling outsiders of thepublic, even people who have
nothing to do with the system.
These people might be part ofthe system, but they're other
cogs of the machine. In chapters1 through 15 timeline in world
wise, the the these peoplethey're attacking are no
different than them. They're inthe same socioeconomic level, if

(51:58):
you will. Right. Now they'reattacking everybody who's not in
project mayhem, who's not infight club.
This is not about coming backfrom rock bottom. It's about
subservience to Tyler now.

Jonathan (52:11):
Yeah. And his personality became a ball of
sorts. Right? Like

Slava (52:15):
Yep.

Jonathan (52:16):
And that's the thing about philosophies is they grow
and then they spread. Sure. Somepeople are like, well, I just
I'm gonna do me. Okay. Fine.
But, eventually, if you're ifyou're a charismatic leader like
Tyler is, your philosophyspreads, it grows, and then you
try to inflict that philosophyon others, morality aside. But

(52:36):
the thing is people are soprimal that they always revert
back to tribalism. And so thetribalism here is, well, you're
either part of project mayhem oryou're not, and if you're not,
then you're the enemy. Butproject mayhem is not trying to
do anything, and that's kind ofwhat we've been harping on here
was, like, with anarchy is,okay. Tear down the system, but,
like, then you're gonna be leftin the rubble of whatever you

(52:58):
have left.
Have you ever seen photos ofIran in 19 fifties? Yeah. It was
beautiful. It was flourishing.It looked like the 19 fifties
here.
They were rolling in it, and Idon't know the historical
events, but I know what it lookslike now. And it's rubble. It's
the the the anarchy, the the thepower rising, it took over, and

(53:19):
it turned something that wasbeautiful into chaos and
disorder. And what's the line,you know, I just wanted to
destroy something beautiful?Yep.
The angel faced guy? Mhmm.

Slava (53:29):
Exactly it.

Jonathan (53:30):
Yeah. That's all the anarchy and chaos wants to do is
they just want to destroy. Itnever wants to build something
new like the phoenix rising fromthe ashes. It just wants to
destroy. Quick Sanderson note,because I'm I'm thinking about
it in the in the book justreleased today, yesterday.
He has these things calledshards. They're these entities

(53:51):
that only act out the essence ofthe entity itself, And one of
them is called ruin, and itsliteral purpose is to decay. It
tries to ruin and corrupt anddestroy the things. That type of
stuff left unbridled in our ownlives does just that. And the

(54:11):
thing is we feel like heroes.
We feel like Braveheart in themidst of it because we think we
have a purpose. We think we'redoing something, quote, unquote,
good. And it's like, no. Youhaven't even spent any time
thinking about this issue.You're just acting out, but
people don't realize thatbecause they're so in the moment
of emotion because people arenot logical.

(54:33):
They're just they're they'rebags of emotion walking around,
trying to find a tribe to belongto so that they have some sort
of, like, acceptance, to quoteMaslow's hierarchy of needs. And
there's so much more to lifethan this, and and I'll agree
with you. Like, Marla has moreto live for than the narrator.

Slava (54:51):
Right. I'm glad you said that. So we're in chapter 16 to
20, and in 17 and Marla comesover and walks in the garden
with the narrator. There seemsto be some sort of evolution in
their relationship, and thegarden is well maintained.
Everything looks pretty, butnarrator sees a jawbone in the

(55:15):
in the garden.
He tries to hide it from Marlaand is successful. She doesn't
see the jawbone. But as thisrelationship between Marla and
narrator involves, her attitudetowards death shifts. And
although at first, she likedbeing close to death, it was
exciting. She felt safe knowingshe was healthy, then this
cancer comes along.

(55:36):
So there's this thing where, youknow, there's almost a teenage
angst in Marla, but she isresponding better than the
narrator, and here's what I'mgetting at. Her fascination with
death slowly changes. And aftershe has a real brush with death,
she has to carry that with herevery day. She no longer wants

(55:57):
to talk about death with thenarrator after this. While on
the other hand, Tyler, thenarrator, the men of Fight Club,
and Project Mayhem, they stillromanticize death, but only is
this abstract concept.
They really are not doinganything because you can wax
philosophical all day long, butif at the end of the day, I'm
gonna repeat myself again. Ifyour fight against the machine

(56:20):
is pissing in somebody's chickennoodle soup, okay, you know,
death, well, you know,destruction. So they feel secure
in their beliefs, but they'renot really growing. They're all
the stuff that they're doing,these external things and taking
Project Mayhem public, if youwill, None of that is anything

(56:41):
more than meaninglesspeacocking. Right?
They're even their view ofmasculinity now has become
tainted. It's not really themtrying to discover masculinity
in a world where masculinitymaybe is looked upon with
derision in some circles, theyhave now turned into the
monsters that they think they'refighting. Or Marla here in 17,

(57:03):
18, she seems to grow as acharacter.

Jonathan (57:06):
That reminds me of the one line from The Dark Knight, I
think it is. You either die ahero or live long enough to see
yourself become the villain.Nice. I mean,

Slava (57:16):
it's not wrong. And listen, like, the goal of
Project Mayhem is destruction.Its worldview is nihilism
sprinkled with some anarchism.I'd probably reverse that,
actually. It's anarchy sprinkledwith nihilism.
Well, potato, potato. We'llagree to disagree. Well, it's
not potato, potato. Let me saythey're different It's 2
different things. Really?

Jonathan (57:37):
Yeah. We'll disagree Potato, tomato.

Slava (57:38):
Potato, tomato. Goodness. Who's the chef here? I'm the
chef.

Jonathan (57:42):
Yes, chef. You and your French brigade?

Slava (57:44):
So nothing. The I'll end that that's where I'll end 16 to
20 is there's the shift in Marlathat's contrasted with the
narrator's non shift. He's stillthe destructive child that he
was, and the car accident, whichhe causes himself, doesn't

(58:04):
inspire him to do anything.Everything that he does still
leaves him in limbo. He'sactually not progressing in the
way that he wanted to.
Maybe there's incrementalchanges here and there that get
him to the end of the book, thearc of the end of the book. At
this point, I don't see it, butI do see it in Marla.

Jonathan (58:26):
Mhmm.

Slava (58:27):
Why I find that interesting and fascinating is
she came in as the disruptor tohim, but if we take a look at
her even through his eyes, andhe's not particularly
trustworthy, But the parts thatwe get of Marla from his
perspective, we still see moregrowth in her than than him.

Jonathan (58:50):
Well, yeah, that's you know, you've kind of mentioned
he his status, his state ofbeing hasn't changed, and that's
because he hasn't made adecision to change. Because it's
always a decision. You mighthave a catalyst, but you can
choose to stay the same by notdoing it. What did I say last
time? You can avoid therealities of life, but you can't
avoid the consequences ofavoiding the realities of life.

(59:12):
And this is literally what he'swalking out, and then there's
this moment where he starts toconfront, like, maybe Tyler's
doing something bad. He hestarts to make a choice. He's
like, actually, anarchy is notthe way, and this is chapters 21
through 25 ish. And he he startsto go, maybe I can stop it. But
project mayhem is rollingdownhill the way that Indiana

(59:34):
Jones is running from thatboulder in one of the, Temple of
Doom.
Right? Like, it's moving. Youcan't stop it. That's that's
just not a thing. There'sanother book that's a fantasy
book that I like to quote andreference.
No. Not re not quote. That Ilike to reference regularly. But
one of the characters talksabout the idea that time is a
boulder, and you can either bedumb and stand in front of it

(59:57):
and try and stop it. You canstand next to it and shout, look
what I did, or you can be smartenough to stand near the boulder
and nudge it at the right time.
The thing that Tyler doesn'tunderstand is what he really
should've done is try to nudgethe boulder, but he instead
tried to stand in front of it tostop it, which it was too it's

(01:00:20):
too powerful. He couldn't

Slava (01:00:21):
do it. Perfect segue into my next question set up for you.
So in the chapter with RaymondHessel, I think that

Jonathan (01:00:32):
k. Hessel, what did you go to school for?

Slava (01:00:35):
Yeah. What is that? Like, 19, I think? Somewhere around
there. So in that chapter, thenarrator's intent is not to kill
him or harm him.
Right? But to engineer anexperience that inspires Raymond
to move and change his life.

A catalyst moment. He wants to give Raymond a catalyst
moment.

Slava (01:00:54):
Exactly. And this seems seems, I say that purposefully
because this is from theperspective of the narrator, to
echo Fights Club's originalgoal, which I don't believe the
narrator on this, but it seemsto, in world, to put men into a
situation that can elicit painand maybe a little bit of fear,

(01:01:18):
but they come out on the otherside aspired to achieve
something more and new. So myquestion is well, let me let me
back up. So this is what he'sdoing with Raymond Hessel. But I
think in the eyes of ProjectMayhem, taking their philosophy
to its logical conclusion,Raymond becoming a veterinarian

(01:01:40):
would still not be enough.

No. No. No. No.

Slava (01:01:42):
Since that that new position that new position still
exists within the confines ofthe old society, which they're
bucking against. So great. Hebecomes a veterinarian. In in
the movie, it was like 6 weeks.You better become a veterinarian
or be on your way, or I'm gonnacome back and kill you.
Let's say that happens. In 6weeks, he's enrolled. Project
Mayhem would have no problemsbombing that veterinarian, you

(01:02:04):
know, school because of Tyler'snew freaking, you know, women
fancy about something veteranand they're oppressive to
animals or something. I'm makingthat up. Right.
But it still wouldn't fixRaymond's position from the
perspective of Project Mayhem.Correct. Is still be part of the
machine.

Was there a question there? You it sounded like you
wanted to start a question, andand I didn't hear one. I think I
Answered the question yourself.

Slava (01:02:27):
No. You answered it, by interrupting me, which is fine.
Because when I said that in theeyes of Project Mayhem, this
wouldn't be enough for Raymond.He still exists in the previous
old society that they buckledbuck against, and you said in
the affirmative. So I was gonnaset you up for that, talk about

(01:02:47):
it, but you agreed with me, sounless you wanna explore it a
little bit more.

No. No. I I it's it's exactly what you said. Honestly,
that might be the kindest thingif we can pick, like, a thing
that happened in this book. Yes.
There's not a lot that's great.Killing your boss is not great.
Blowing up buildings is notgreat. If there's one thing that
happened, it's he inspired aperson to go back and live their
dreams, albeit the method wasnot great, perhaps even not

(01:03:15):
justifiable. But let's get backto the the the boulder that's
rolling downhill.

Slava (01:03:20):
Let's do it. Tell me about the boulder. Well, before
we

take that quick side quest, the boulder's rolling,
and Tyler or narrator doesn'thave the intelligence or
capability of stopping theboulder, he tries to because he
finally took a choice. He he hedecided, hey. Maybe this isn't
actually correct. And we see hishouse of cards that he's both

(01:03:43):
built for himself and also notfor himself because he built
them for Tyler come crumblingdown, now he's starting to have
to confront like, oh, I'm TylerDurden. I did this.

Slava (01:03:53):
I am

I am responsible for all of this.

Slava (01:03:56):
Right. So the boulder, chapter 21 is where he realizes
that the boulder is there.Because he's traveling around
the country, and the narratorregularly goes to bars trying to
find Tyler because Tyler hasn'tbeen around for a while. And
everywhere he goes, the narratorsees men with scars and bruises.
Hey.
They must have a fight clubhere. In a bar in Seattle, a

(01:04:17):
bartender says, welcome back,sir, to the narrator, but the
narrator has no memory of thisever happening. And this is
where he's confused, suspicious,and starts to put things
together and calls Marla, andthis is where he asked Marla if
they ever had sex. She confirmsthat indeed they have, and she
also says that the narratorsaved her life when she

(01:04:39):
attempted suicide. The narratoris like, okay.
Well, so what's my name? And shesays, your name is Tyler Durden.
Here is his realization that theboulder is right here, and he
he's too late to stop it.

Yeah. He started the boulder rolling downhill.

Slava (01:04:53):
He did. Yeah.

And now he has to confront himself because he's
realizing that he has to bothtake responsibility for the
chaos that he's begun and choosewhat he's gonna do next. And
he's finally he's finally forcedto confront himself.

Slava (01:05:08):
And it takes Bob, Bob's death, and kinda Bob's even
Bob's loss of his ownindividuality. He shapes his
head. He burns off hisfingertips. He receives the
chemical burn kiss in the backof his hand. So that's him
losing his individuality andbecoming part of project mayhem
instead of being a cog in thecorporate machine.

(01:05:29):
Irony again. And Bob eventuallygets killed. So this is where
the narrator finally realizes,oh, shit. I have started pull
I've started a mayhem. I'vecaused mayhem with project
mayhem.

Mhmm.

Slava (01:05:45):
Yeah. Even him calling Bob bitch tits all the way up to
this point and then giving himthe kiss of the the burn kiss
and then having Bob shaving hishead and doing all those things,
he's never treated Bob like agood person. Bob at first was a
means to an end, and then he waspart of his little space
monkeys, calling them spacemonkeys even, just degrading,

(01:06:10):
and here is where the narratorfinally realizes that he is the
destructive force in his ownlife, in the life of Marla, in
the life of Bob, and the rest ofproject mayhem.

Yeah. And then the story quickly moves toward where
we began in chapter 1 wherenarrator's on the top of the
roof with this iconic climax,and he's gonna shoot himself to
kill Tyler and hope that thebombs go off. Well, Tyler hopes
the bombs go off, but they don'tlike we talked about earlier

(01:06:44):
because Tyler mixed itincorrectly.

Slava (01:06:46):
Yeah. And thank god for that because Tyler now takes
control of the narrator in waysthat we haven't seen before, and
this is where he kills thenarrator's boss, and then they
go pick up the mechanic, andthen this mechanic was supposed
to maybe just a random guy, buthe's also part of Fight Club, so
you see the scope of the damagethat the narrator has caused.

(01:07:12):
It's more than just a few peoplehere and there or fine Fight
Club's in a different city now.It is affecting every aspect of
the narrator's world. This issort of where the novel reaches
its kind of conclusion or arcbecause if you haven't guessed,
we're in chapters 26 to 30.
Tyler wants them to die in aspectacular way, so Project

(01:07:37):
Mayhem will be viewed willalways be remembered, and then
them space monkeys can be viewedas martyrs, and this will
elevate them to and Tyler said,I think, to a different type of
status, a holy status if youwill, and this will inspire
future narrations of Fight Cluband Project Mayhem to be even

(01:07:59):
more deadly and productive, butas we already discussed it,
that's just gonna create morechaos. None of the following
iterations are gonna helpanybody get in touch with their
inner masculinism. Well, yeah,It's not gonna help them become
better men. It's not gonna fixsociety. It's just another
iteration of assholes peeing insoup and blowing shit up.

Given enough time, project mayhem would fracture
and become project anarchy andproject mayhem because some
people wouldn't be committedenough according to one group
versus the other group, and thenthey become enemies. Like, it's
just this stuff happens both inthe real world. Well, I I can
only say that in the real worldbecause the book doesn't go that
far. But if it did, that wouldbe a logical conclusion of what

(01:08:45):
would take place in terms ofProject Mayhem splitting off and
becoming a hydra instead of ManyHoney Dragon.

Slava (01:08:51):
In chapter 26, we see the narrator finally trying to rid
himself of Tyler. So he goes toa fight club and registers to
fight all 50 guys, which, again,breaking the rules because 2
guys at a time. Right? And hegets his, yeah, he gets his ass
beat up, and he wants to be deadso he can escape Tyler. So here,

(01:09:17):
the boulder is too to continueyour analogy, the boulder is too
much for him, and he's nowfighting Fight Club trying to
kill Tyler.
And as we get to the end of thebook, I think finally, the
narrator is starting to get astep closer to acceptance of the

(01:09:37):
world around him, accepting his,if you will, his lot in life. We
see the narrator slowly comingto a state of acceptance. He's,
like, he's approaching Zen, ifyou will.

That seems a little lofty, but okay.

Slava (01:09:55):
Like, well, if he's at peace of where he is. Right? He
seems to be going, okay. Fine.This is where I am.
That's the Zoloft talking?Zoloft, zen Zanoff. But he seems
to be at peace as much as he canbe, at least at some level of
acceptance much greater thananything in previous chapters.
And then we see thisconversation he has with God

(01:10:19):
where he's probably under theinfluence of a lot of heavy
drugs at the at the hospital. Hehas this conversation with God,
which almost is like a therapysession.
He even bucks against God inthis conversation, call him a
liar.

I mean, he's not fully integrating himself as a person.
He's accepting some elements ofreality, but not all of them.

Slava (01:10:38):
The god part also is important because Tyler once
said in the book that yourfather is your model of god.

Yeah. It happened it's I think he said it 2 or 3 times.

Slava (01:10:47):
Yeah.

And then we get that his father was kind of, like,
sort of giving him direction,but barely. His first fight was
not just with himself, butfighting what does Tyler say? He
he's fighting everything that hehates or something like that.
Not himself. He He wasn'tfighting Tyler.
He was fighting everything thathe hates,

Slava (01:11:04):
the emptiness. So as we wind down here, at the end of
the book, we see that thenarrator's final philosophical
stance is neither, you know,optimistic or nihilistic or
anarchist. He is one step closerto acceptance. We'll put it that
way. He is approaching kind offully accepting his lot in life

(01:11:29):
and accepting the situation hefinds himself in, at least
versus how how he was in theprevious chapter, but he's not
there yet.
And this conversation that hehas with God, whether it was
drug induced or sleep inducedor, I mean, dream induced,
whatever it was, he kindabuckles against God. Tyler has
said in previous chapters thatyour father is your model of

(01:11:52):
God, and now the narrator herefinds that his therapist is
stepping into this god rule.Instead of falling in step with
the therapist and maybe movingforward some more, the narrator
still holds on to his oldbeliefs, refusing to what one

(01:12:14):
summary I read, quote, refusingto sacrifice himself for someone
else's ideas, and there's thiskind of melancholy state that
he's in. And although he findssome joy in marvelous letters,
the nurses slash angels areclear followers of project
mayhem, and this deeplydiscomforts him. So the he's

(01:12:36):
still not out of his out of theprevious world.
He still finds himself in thesame place that he did, you
know, in chapters 1 through 25.And here in the last chapters,
there's very little change. AndTyler's not around, but the
narrator still has this notdesire, but this he still has

(01:12:59):
the stance that he doesn't wannago to the real world because the
real world now is not acorporate hellscape, it's a
Project Mayhem hellscape becauseeverybody, at least to his eyes,
everybody is now in ProjectMayhem instead of the old
society, and likely, he probablyrealizes this, he likely

(01:13:19):
realizes that all the samesocial problems exist and even
more exist because of whatmayhem he has caused. They away
for him outside the hospital, sonothing has changed, and he
barely changes.

Yeah. There's this ambiguity at the end here where
the narrator has solved Tyler'sinfluence in his own head, but
not his influence in the worldthat he's created because Tyler
created Project Mayhem. AndProject Mayhem is now

(01:13:58):
everywhere. But the narrator, toyour point, like, does he get
out? Does he choose to stay inthere?
Does he choose to wrestle withthese questions? And it's, like,
well, based on the conversationhe has with quote, unquote, God,
no. He has not accepted thequestions. He's not willing to
bend on that even though realityhas said something completely

(01:14:19):
different and has proven some ofthe questions. So it's a nice
transgressive fiction endingbecause it's inconclusive.
It leaves you hanging. It leavesyou questioning. But, yeah, I
mean, overall, 5 star bookacross the board.

Slava (01:14:34):
Heck, yeah. Same here. 5 across the board.

Love it. Well, next episode, you will hear us
recapping with one of ourfavorite guests, Jess, and I
can't wait to hear what she hasto say about this

Slava (01:14:48):
novel. But before you vanish back to reality, share
this episode with your bookloving friends. It keeps our
quest alive and helps other bookadventurers find their way here.
We'll see you next time on

SideQuest.

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Fight Club Part 2 - Chuck Palahniuk

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Fight Club Part 2 - Chuck Palahniuk