January 2, 2025 • 54 mins
This episode is a recording of a live conversation between Thibault and Allison Schulnik, reknowned painter, ceramicist, animator, and filmmaker based out in the desert in Sky Valley, CA. They talk about trying to live a dumb phone life, being witchy, and delve into Schulnik's artistic practice. Schulnik's latest show, "Dumb Phone" was at The Pit in Los Angeles and can be found on their website. The conversation was recorded on December 12, 2024. About Allison Schulnik Allison Schulnik choreographs her subjects in compositions that embody a spirit of the macabre, a Shakespearian comedy/tragedy of love, death and farce. The subjects often stare back at the audience and study them as they are in turn studied, aware of their ancestors from the Grand Theme works of the past, the genre paintings that inform them. Although a haunting sense of foreboding, discomfort and unease is palpable, a sense of understanding, compassion and hopefulness for her cast of characters is still evident in the heavy impasto paintings. Her sculptural use of oil paint references her clay-animation background, as a motion-like sensibility affords her paintings unparalleled depth and energy.
Show Notes
- https://allisonschulnik.me/
- Dumb Phone at The Pit https://www.the-pit.la/allison-schulnik-2
- The Side Woo on YouTube https://youtu.be/kDTlymYmHDM
- The Side Woo on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thesidewoo/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Hello and welcome to the side Woo.
This is your host, Tebow, helping you navigate the wild
and mysterious path that is the creative life.
Join me as I ask our guests about the tools they use to help
them survive in the creative wilderness.
OK, well welcome everybody. Thank you so much.
(00:23):
This is Tebow with the Side Woo podcast and I am super excited.
I'm a big fan of today's guest. We have Allison Scholnick, who
is an artist, animator, sculptor.
I'm trying to think what else you said.
Filmmaker and originally from San Diego, but currently living
(00:46):
out in the desert in Sky Valley.And we're going to try to keep
the talk under an hour because apparently there's a threatening
wind that's on its way. So we're going to try to, like,
work with the weather. But yeah, thank you so much,
Allison, Welcome. Thanks for having me, I'm glad
to be here. Yeah.
So we will do some Q&A at the end about 45 minutes in.
(01:08):
But if you have any questions, feel free to pop them in.
I'm going to try to keep an eye on the chat and just to kick
things off, I always start with what sign are you like Western
sun, astrology sign? I'm Libra, OH.
Cool, it's a recent birthday. Yes, yes, yes, kinda.
(01:30):
Yeah. That actually feels very right
as a an artist and I don't know how does that come up for you.
Do you have a lot of other placements in Libra or?
I don't know. I don't know too much about it.
I everyone who I tell I'm a Libra too, they're like, Oh yes,
yes, we'll do like Libra. Venus rules Libra, and I feel
(01:53):
like everyone, like, immediatelyassociates Venus with art.
Oh, and, like, beauty, you know?At least, Yeah, that's what I
was told to anyway. But then also social justice
and, like, being balanced. That makes sense.
Cool. Well, we'll just keep that in
mind as we go through the conversation.
(02:15):
I feel like your work is really witchy and has this like kind of
pseudo like spiritual subtext toit, thinking about nature and
these kind of like mystical creatures, like like elementals,
like a lot of your animation deals with, you know, the
animation of flowers and trees and thinking about death and
(02:40):
like transformation through these kind of like cycles of
nature. But I'm curious if, you know,
there's any kind of like spiritual like belief system
underneath that belief system isa very formal word.
So I don't really know how to explain that.
But yeah. Is there any kind of like
mystical beliefs that you have around nature or your art or
(03:01):
anything that you were brought in from growing up that informs
like your the way you think about your work?
Yeah, I mean, yeah, I don't know.
I we were talking about this. I I think for me, I think, I
think it when I think of spirituality, I think of it is
greater than like art and naturefor me.
And, and just being having a community of people and being
(03:24):
connected to people and to nature and and I think the yeah,
the wanting, the animating, bringing things to life that I
make with my hands. I don't know, it's, it feels
just natural for me and I just, I like being able to make worlds
and that are just completely from my head.
(03:46):
And I don't know, it's almost just like an expression of
maybe, yeah, my spirituality in that way that it's just really
about art and nature for me, I think.
Yeah, cool. And are you witchy at all?
Do you do the moon ritual because your work feels made by
someone who's been out in the darkness of the night making
symbols in the dirt, You know, and you live in the desert,
(04:08):
which is a witchy place to live.Yeah, I, I tell my daughter
we're good witches. I, I know that I have a
relative. I know that I have a like a
great aunt that was burned at the stake in Salem.
But no, I, I'm just, I don't know.
I love the idea of of witchinessand I just love the idea of just
this feeling of creating things and out of out of nature and
(04:35):
things that you just would, you know, maybe, I don't know, just
trying to really focus on maybe the darkness that I have inside,
but also the light and how that comes out.
I know it comes off as as witchyand I love that.
And yeah, I don't know, maybe it's hard for me to say.
(04:57):
No, don't totally. That's OK.
I mean, I think what you said about bringing out the inner
darkness too. I was going through your movies
that you've made, the animation movies, and there is this
celebration of the misfit. You know, you have these kind of
slightly decrepit looking characters and sad clowns and
(05:21):
hobos. And they're all a little bit
like they've gotten the sad end of the life stick, but they're
also in community with one another.
And there is like a joyfulness in their just acceptance of one
another as they like do their dancing and like, they're kind
of like flowy movements. I don't know if you could talk.
(05:43):
I mean, I, I realize like the animations you did, the
claymations are about 10 years at least at this time.
So I don't know if it feels comfortable to talk about them,
but I was just they're so gorgeous.
Like your work is, you know, very masterfully done with the
materiality of all the like clayand.
(06:04):
Well, I mean, yeah, you just explained it so much better than
I would feel like. But I, yeah, I, I think that I
think that the animations were, I mean, at all my work is really
exercising demons and, and, and like letting the monsters out
and like to deal with them and to, to be OK with them and to
accept them and, and to be. Yeah, at is some find some kind
(06:27):
of piece. You know, I feel like that's why
we all make work, right. So it just was that too.
And I think animation was like, and, and some of the sculptures
I've been working on too, they're the ceramics, they're so
involved and detailed and they take a long time to do it.
I mean, animation takes even longer, like a year or whatever,
you know, you're doing 24 framesa second and you're doing
(06:48):
thousands of frames, you know? Yeah.
Can you talk about that? Like how do you keep going and
how do you stay focused? I feel like I want to talk about
this to you later with the technology piece, but feel like
I become more and more ADHD and I don't know if that is because
I'm working from home and have alot of Zoom meetings and the
smartphone stuff, but how did you stay focused during that
(07:11):
time making? That well, gosh, I mean, I made,
yeah, I did make those. I mean, I made the watercolor
films that I did recently, more recently like 2 years.
I made one, I think it was 2022,so two years ago.
But like the other ones that were longer and more involved,
kind of those took a lot of time.
(07:34):
And I don't know how I, I, I didn't have a child that I and
it was yeah, pre all this. I feel like it was pre I well,
there was, there was 10 years ago.
I mean, yeah, there's social media.
I wasn't super involved in it, but.
It was lighter. It was lighter, yeah, it felt.
It's so I feel like you it's so hard to be present with
(07:55):
technology the way technology isnow, how it's like just
all-encompassing all of our lives all the time that I feel
like it was easier than to focus.
But that's why, you know, as we talked about that I, you know,
took a step back from all that and not that I was heavily
involved, but I but yeah, I do think that might have something
to do it with it also having children also, I think, yeah,
(08:16):
maybe the well, and I was, I hate to say I was younger and I
had more energy, but but you know, the film, but the the
films I do now are just more focused, I think.
And they're just, I don't know, maybe even more honest.
I don't know. But I I feel like I'd have less
time and less less energy maybe.So I really focus when I work
(08:37):
and I really just think about what what I really want to do.
And I think more about process than the final outcome.
I think about what what am I? What is making me feel not
necessarily good, but like a waythat I want to like.
What is helping me to feel like the expression that I want to
feel in that moment? It's funny, I worked this job as
(09:02):
a sales like a recruiter and oneof the really, and they're very
like sports heavy as a company culture.
And they would always say trust the process and they would have
this really elaborate way of getting clients and stuff.
And it was such an obnoxious thing to hear over and over
again. But I do think it's like really
real for a lot of other aspects of life where it's really just
(09:24):
about building on yesterday. I know it's always like the
most, the corniest, most like the dorkiest things that are
just like, well, but it makes a lot of sense for me right now.
No, I know they say it for a reason.
I hate it though. But yeah, it is, it is like
real. And I mean, I feel like when I
look at your animations especially, but also all your
(09:46):
other work, it's you can feel the process really built into
the fabric of like the meaning of the work too.
Yeah, because the claymation youlike see the hand without the
actual hand, you know, as you'removing the the figures around
and everything. Could you just talk about one
day of making an animation? Like how many frames do you get
(10:08):
through? What are you doing?
I feel like this is something that not a lot of 2D artists do
because it is so time consuming.So the fact that you've done all
the things. Yeah, it it depends on the film
and depends on like the time, but like it varies.
I mean there would be days whereI like with mound I have 100
like at least 100 characters andI was work.
(10:28):
I animate all by myself, you know, and I just like moving 100
characters for a a shot. I don't, it's like, I don't even
remember how long the shot was. Maybe it was 30 seconds or
something. But I would do one or two frames
a day. And so I'd just sit and work on
all the characters for the wholeday and then, you know, take
breaks. And.
(10:49):
And by that you mean one photo. Basically that was yeah, it's
like a a photo. There was like 100 characters
and I would go and then and everyone's the fingers like
moving that much and then you move like one piece of hair,
like not even that that much. How did you remember the next
(11:12):
day I. Don't know, I don't know.
You just get super focused when you're, you know how it is.
Like if you're interested in something and get really focused
on it, you know? Yeah, it's like that.
I I, I probably took some notes.Yeah, I probably wrote some
things down. And then So what year did you
have your child or like what year to be you become a parent?
(11:34):
2017, Summer 2017, Yeah. And moved out here to Sky Valley
from LA and July. Oh, my God, I'm sorry.
July 2017, That's when I moved out here.
And then I and then I had my child.
July 2018, Yeah. And so how is that kind of
shifted things for you? Because yeah, your animation
(11:57):
style has changed. Maybe you don't spend a full day
working on one frame. No, Yeah.
Well, I that that was a those years were a big change from me.
I moved out to the desert. I, I had a child.
I, I got, I, I got rid of my smartphone.
Oh, did. That happened around the same
(12:18):
time. That was that was like 2019, I
think it was. And then I got off social media
like 2020 I think, or maybe 29. I can't remember something like
that little group of years. But all those things together
really altered my life a lot. And for for the better and.
Can't add more change in than that unless you.
Yeah, it was a lot. Someone you know, like of
(12:41):
course, like all the major life changes.
Yeah, for for your own self, Yeah, yeah.
So what was that like? Well, just, I'm just trying to
imagine, 'cause I do feel like, you know, your work shifted and
your, it sounds like your life totally shifted.
And then, of course, the pandemic shifted.
Everyone, yeah. Oh, and then COVID happened,
right? That whole thing.
And then, yeah, everything was. What was your kind of internal
(13:05):
narrative like where you like, Iwant a break or I'm happy to
like take this time to be a parent or what was your thought
process? Like I just wanted things to be
different. I think there was some was some
habits when I was living in the city.
I just, I don't know, I just wasn't.
(13:26):
I mean, I, I think, you know, I've always struggled a lot of
us with depression, anxiety, I think, I don't know that it was,
I don't know, I, I don't know ifit was particularly worse at
that time, but I, I just felt like an intense need for change
and, and growth and I just wanted to.
Like personal growth, it sounds like.
Yeah, I just, I just wanted different things.
(13:47):
I wanted to be more with nature and we we are now and I I just
wanted to be but that. But the interesting thing is
that with COVID and moving out here and everything, I actually
I because I spent so many years working alone and I was, I'm
always in my studio alone, working alone.
I don't never had assistance. I never, I worked with one
(14:07):
person that my wonderful, amazing elder K son who's my
cinematographer of my films. But besides that, this really, I
didn't really work with anyone ever.
And so I was like had a really like solitary life for 10 years
and coming out here, I thought that I wanted more of that.
But then after COVID and everything I found like this
intense need to be around peopleand be parts of communities.
(14:29):
And, and actually, even though I'm more secluded here, I, I
have to go into town every day. I drive 30 minutes, 3540,
sometimes minutes, sometimes an hour to town to go to take my
daughter to school. And then I go work at a pottery
studio where where there's people and I go to dance classes
in town and I might start teaching dancer thinking.
(14:50):
I've just been doing a lot of things that are like in the
community and with the school and everything, trying to be a
part of all the communities morethan way more than I was when I
was in LA, which is like full ofpeople and everything.
It's interesting. Yeah, it is super interesting.
Yeah. In some ways you're yeah, you're
dialing back like the hustle andbustle.
(15:11):
Dialing back the digital life, not that I was really that
involved, but you know, it's, it's impossible not to be
dialing back that and then increasing my presence in like
physical societies or something.I don't.
Know, like when I feel like 2019was like peak utopia of
Instagram where all the photos 'cause I was a social media
(15:34):
manager for a company I spent a lot of time and that really
influenced my work 'cause I was always like looking at Instagram
for my job. And I think that was the era
where everything was really flawless and perfect.
And then when COVID hit, it was like dystopia and imagery and
everyone was like really dark and messed up photos.
(15:55):
I don't know. So it was like probably a good
time to get off anyway. Yeah.
But. I don't miss it.
Did you feel like pressure at all?
Because I do feel like you were having like a moment, you know,
with all your I mean, maybe it came earlier, but like with your
animations, you got so much attention for those.
(16:15):
And I mean, did you feel like there was like the art world
hook at all that you had to detach from or?
I don't know. I mean, I definitely felt like
there was like, you know, there's always that feeling
like, you know, if I, if I leave, if I leave social media
and don't have a smartphone, I live out.
I'm not going to shows in LA. Like I'm not told, do I
disappear? Do I like, will people just
(16:37):
forget me? And I, I don't know, it's just
you have to, I guess I got to the point I'm like, well, it
doesn't really matter. You know, it's just nothing
really matters except being a kind person and, and like loving
people and, you know, like contributing in some positive
way to the communities you're involved in or not or whatever.
(16:59):
So what does it matter? I mean, yeah, I don't know if
that answered the question. Yeah, no, for sure.
And then I mean, I guess to talksegue into your current show
called Dumb Phone, you're using a pared down iPhone that's out
of date, right? I have a flip phone that I use
for my phone. Oh, you do OK.
Yeah, it's a flip phone and thenI have a AA5I like AI don't know
(17:24):
it's like a, it's the same one I've had.
I think it's a 5S iPhone from like 2000. 16 or something.
Yeah, maybe 2014 or something. And it's obsolete, so it doesn't
work, but it works for a podcast, which is mine.
So I have my podcast and my music on there and I use it like
an iPod. And so it, it doesn't this the
(17:47):
web browser doesn't work. I can't really download new
apps. So it's great.
It's like a, it's an, it's like an old school iPod.
Yeah. But it has Apple Music, which I
like, so yeah. When did you fully start the
flip phone life? Well, I, you know, I was
remembering that I actually got 1.
I had, when I got, I had a iPhone, I got my first iPhone, I
(18:09):
think it was like 2013. And then I had it for five years
or something. And then I remember the
second-half of having and I got a flip phone and I'm like, well,
I'm not going to have my iPhone at my work.
So I had a flip phone at work. And then I I just ended up
getting rid of it all together and then.
OK. So I've, I had it for about 5
years and then I I've had my flip phone for five years.
OK, so 2018 or something? Yeah, like maybe 2019.
(18:33):
I think it was, yeah, yeah, 'cause I feel like for me, I
started traveling abroad and so I would use like a burner phone
to communicate with local people, 'cause yeah, for texting
or whatever. But then I did do a month and
1/2 this spring with for like flip phone February if people
are interested in trying out dipping their toe into the water
(18:55):
of dumb phone life. But I will have to say it was
really hard because I do live ina city and I don't know the
area. And I was like trying to get
around and trying to do things that normally you're like out
and about and you can easily quick do the thing to figure out
where to go next or how to contact.
(19:15):
So do you feel like when you go other places it's harder or
cause where you are now it sounds like pretty cozy and you
can probably figure out a lot ofthings without having to.
I, yeah, I haven't, I, I, I like, yeah, I mean, yeah, it, it
would be a challenge, I think I,the places I go to, you know,
Southern California, which I know I go to New York, which I
(19:38):
know, you know, so I know these places really well and I don't
need it. And I am, and I've, and I've
been doing it for, you know, 40 years, you know, so, you know,
it's easier for someone maybe myage that's been doing it for.
Yeah, but then, but then I did, I did compile a list of tips to
for people to drop their smartphone because I know it can
(20:00):
be hard. And I actually wrote a list of
things that you can do that makeit easier.
Like I have a Garmin in my car, so it pretty much can get around
anywhere. And you know if you were.
You have a what? A.
Not even a thing anywhere. A.
Garmin is that AGPS thing? Yeah.
It's a navigation system, but I got, I think I got it like 15
(20:21):
years ago or 20 years ago. Yeah, it's a.
Yeah, it's just a. It's just a navigation system,
but works by satellites. Got.
It yeah, it's just, it works great and I can get anywhere
that I don't know how to go. I just, you know.
And what about not to spend too much time on?
Well, I would love to, you know,see your list because yeah, it
is hard. It's like there's so many
(20:42):
pieces. And I think the thing that I've
talked to someone who made a light a like a dumb phone called
the Light Phone. And he's like, we recommend that
people have something else they want to spend time on because
you end up with these like chunks of time where you don't
have anything to do because you used to be on the phone.
So I bring books to read. I have books.
(21:05):
I I have a Garmin. I have a camera.
I have what else? I have a, a landline at my home
so that the phones are 'cause myhusband has a smartphone and
but, you know, he turns, you know, he turns it off at a
certain time or puts it away. And we don't have it, you know,
in, in, in the bedroom. We don't have it at the at the
(21:27):
dinner table, you know, we don't, We have rules about it,
you know, and if we and, and when it does help, if, you know,
you have a group that you're traveling with, if one person
had one, sure, yeah, that would make it easier.
But the idea of it is that, yeah, it's a, it's a little bit
harder to have a flip phone and to live a digitally minimal
life, but it, it's a little bit harder.
(21:48):
But it's, but it's worth the, it's worth it, you know, like
for me, that's how I feel. And how have you seen, Like, for
me, I did a lot more plan air painting because I would have
all this time in the morning or,you know, just, I felt like
anxious to get that energy out of what's going on.
So I would go and do something. Yeah.
Like, productive. But so for you, how did that
(22:11):
manifest itself? Like maybe at the beginning, I
don't know if you remember. Yeah, I mean, I just, I, I find
I've read a lot more books, I'vegotten more work done.
I I can't imagine how hard it would be with my amount of focus
and attention span at this current moment, at this point in
my life, if I did have it. I I don't even know if I could
get anything done. It's so distracting.
(22:32):
You know, when I do go on to check e-mail, it's just, it's
been an hour and it's for two hours and it's, you know, so I
could have been reading my book,but.
Right. Yeah, I think yeah, the.
Books. Do you have any books that
you're currently excited about that you've read?
Yeah, for sure. I mean, they're all kind of
like, well, for sure the best book I've read in a long time.
(22:56):
The anxious generation by Jonathan hate having a young kid
in school. It's insane.
The whole change of childhood. Childhood is completely it's not
even anything re recognize anymore.
And it's not it's it's it's a phone based it.
He talks about the idea of childhood becoming from play
(23:17):
based childhood to phone based childhood.
And so the kids are their live center around phones,
smartphones, and so that was really catastrophic.
To read. But also the second-half is full
of solutions and it's. Really.
OK, good, 'cause I'm like, that sounds really brutal.
The first half I was like, I can't, I can't go on.
(23:38):
But then you're like, well, that's me too.
Oh, yeah, totally. Definitely.
Yeah, yes. Everybody and then thinking of
the next humans to be sending. Forward.
How do we dial this back? I mean, I guess, yeah, for me,
I'm like, it's one thing to slowdown or to temporarily, you
(23:58):
know, but to really slow the entire culture of, yeah, maybe
the one person has a smartphone,but what if we none of us did
like, or, you know, how do we like dial things back when
they've gotten kind of so accelerated?
Everything feels very fast And like my expectation is that
everything can be done really quickly.
(24:19):
And I think it goes to what you talk about in your show with the
spoons is like the slowing down allows you to notice.
But let's be real, it's like cutting an addict addiction.
It's not really that fun at first, you know, like.
It's hard at first. Yeah, it is.
It was a challenge. And I was like, oh, can I do
this? You know, 'cause you have to
text the old style. I don't know how many of you
(24:40):
like. Yeah, the T9.
Yeah. Or T9, you know.
Yeah, yeah. And it's harder, but then you
get used to it and then you're like really fast and then it's
nothing, you know, but it's likeit's, it's, I have never been
even moderately or severely or seriously hindered or in danger
because I had a flip phone. You know, it's like there's,
(25:02):
there's mild, there's a mild inconvenience.
And. But there's nothing.
Nothing moderate or or really serious as ever, you know.
Yeah. It's it's yeah, it's a it's a
mild inconvenience, yeah, but when, if.
You travel with a backup too. Like I had my light phone crash
out on me and I couldn't get it to work and.
(25:23):
It was like. Driving from SF back to LA and
so that was a little bit of a problem, but I just had my
backup and I like moved my SIM, you know, so you can always just
keep with you, but. Having a backup or a laptop or
something, yeah. Totally.
Yeah, but the, the flip phones are, I mean, more reliable
because it's an older technologyin a way they could I well, I
(25:44):
don't know, I don't want to say they're more reliable, but
they're, I would love to switch to a light phone because I like
that it has the podcast and everything.
But yeah, the the the flip phone's been great for me, so I
don't need to switch it up yet, but.
Yeah. Well, and yeah, just to like
move away from this depressing topic into your your show.
So, you know, you walk in and there's like a wall full of
(26:08):
spoons that you've made out of ceramics.
Can you talk about like the significance of that and just
like how that came up to you? Yeah, I wanted to make a
wallpaper. I I have been making these
ceramic Wallpapers lately. I did the I had a a situation
where I had like a Bunny and a snake like fighting with each
other outside my door and and itwas really weird.
(26:30):
But like this the Bunny was the aggressor.
It was really strange. It lasted like an hour and they
were just like facing off and then biting each other.
It was. A Bunny gonna eat the snake or
what? I don't know what happened.
It was a rosy boa which are likedocile so they're not like they
don't have venom or anything. But eventually it it makes
sniffed in. It was the.
Rabbit like the jackrabbit cuz there.
(26:52):
It was a little regular regular,a little regular Bunny rabbit.
So wild. I would have pulled a tarot card
on that. I would have been like what is
this about? I know it was weird, but then I
made a wallpaper vessels this bunnies mistakes and I just
wanted to make the wallpaper. That was that it was, you know,
that you could feel like a sculpture.
So they were sculptural little elements like a wallpaper.
(27:15):
And then so then I this time I was like, well, I want to do
something else. And then I just, I, I don't
know, I just thought of, I just thought spoons.
I wasn't going to put like messages on them at first.
I just was going to make spoons thinking of like feeding and I
don't know, being in service or what do you have a spoon soup?
I don't know. But I was just thinking of it
(27:35):
felt loving to me. I don't know.
And and then I just started making it like a journal.
Yeah, like I started making it like a journal.
So it became a journal for me. And then I would just write
things that I was thinking aboutthat day or and just worked on
it for a long time this year with along with other things and
that's where it came. From Oh, I love that, and I like
the idea that it's like a wallpaper installation.
(27:59):
Like you could have objects on your wallpaper instead of it
just being flat. Yeah, I love wallpaper so.
You do? Yeah.
I would cover every room and theceiling and the floor in
wallpaper. Oh yeah, and the second the new
owners one day will be like Oh my God, so much wallpaper.
Yes, as you can see, everything around me is filled.
(28:21):
I know you do have. I have a collage of different.
Yeah, that's great. No, I love it.
I like maxed out. Yeah, maximalist here.
But yeah, I mean the in the press release they talk about
like the poem or the writing about the spoons and how every
minute like that you're able to notice the present is like a
(28:45):
spoon. I don't know if that was
something that you. No, they, they found that and I
loved it and they often it's nice to have a gallery that you
work with. They're they're so they're
wonderful and they just, yeah, they found that and I just felt
right and felt. Connected.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I liked it because I do
think like the present moment asthis.
(29:08):
I mean, if you're Eckhart Tolle,it is literally the only thing,
right? But just using it as a source
for inspiration and like having that be enough rather than
always needing to like augment, you know, the moment.
I think there's a lot of that, like for me with smartphone, but
(29:29):
also just the mentality of beingin a big city, always trying to
make things better or get more or I think it's just like the
mindset, you know, I don't know if it's 'cause we're in
California even around like being spiritual, like how can I
be more present, you know, like even though it's like a
competition with yourself. Right, right.
Always looking for answers and looking for fixes or something,
(29:53):
yeah. Yeah.
And so there's just this like embrace of the moment and then
the making of it, which you had to be really present for that,
and the kind of accumulation of the spoons as a way to Showtime.
I think that was really successful for me.
Yeah, thank you. And yeah, I just all of my work
(30:14):
is really about the handmade andthe human made and and you know,
I don't, I don't use just with AI and all this thing everything
going on with I don't know, I just want it.
I like, I mean, I've always madethings like this and I just, I
want to continue to make things that celebrate, you know, just
like being human and having a hand and using it and, and
(30:39):
having things that come to my brain and then about my hand,
you know, like no machine can, you know.
Yeah, We had a question about dance that I thought, Oh yeah,
was good. You.
I remember listening to one of your interviews where you talked
about your choreography and experience as a dancer,
informing your animations, your claymations.
(31:00):
Yeah, yeah. And now you're taking dance
again. What kind of dance are you
taking? Yeah, well, I've always taken
dance my whole life and I've been dancing so I could walk and
it was my first love and but never did anything with it
professionally or anything like that.
Were you like a tap, jazz and ballet?
Oh yeah, I did that too, actually.
Up until a certain age, yeah. Oh, yes, yes, tap, jazz, Malay,
(31:23):
I did. Flamenco I did.
Yeah. And then of course, contemporary
and modern and and all that. And I love it.
And yeah, no, I just, I, it's inme.
I just like whenever I, I love animating because it's dancing
paintings or dancing, you know, it's, that's what I had a
teacher, Jules Engel, who ran the experimental animation
program at Kellards and he and Iwas in the program there and he
(31:46):
as a, as a BFA and he always talked about dance.
He would always show us dance video.
He would always Just Dance movies and the bijou on the big
screen 35mm like all these old dance movies and and and clips
and everything and and yeah, no,I just that's what I loved some
that's what drew me to animationwas that it was so much like
(32:07):
dance. So when I it.
Could be an analog for the Yeah,the form.
Yeah, yeah, for sure, yeah. Just making characters move to
to beats and move and music. And then now I'm just, yeah.
And now I'm still dancing and I have a little group.
I performed Alphabet. So really, here in the desert,
Yeah. Oh, that's so cool.
(32:29):
Yeah. Do you do any choreographing
yourself? I do, yeah, for myself and my
daughter, but, you know, nothing.
I'm working on things, but I yeah, nothing really that I've
really put out in the world. But I mean except for the.
Choreography, except for the film.
Characters. Yeah.
I mean, did you do those at home?
(32:50):
Were you doing them yourself first to figure out like what?
What do I want them to do or? I think I did a little bit,
yeah. And then I, it was just movement
that was like, and you know, just in my mind that for so long
and I didn't, I don't even know if I I choreographed or
whatever. I just kind of started moving
them, you know, let them move themselves almost just what
(33:11):
which way do they want to go? And yeah, wasn't too planned.
In eager, I mean you have this one scene where there's like the
three dancers and they're foldedover and then you have this blue
like moth woman or something. And the way you moved her arms
(33:31):
and hands, it was like she I fora couple seconds of it.
I'm like, is this a person? It is so.
Cool. Like lifelike and proportionate,
but not where everything felt solike real to what a human form
and like modern dance would do. Yeah, you know, it's not.
(33:51):
But I like I got my brain was tricked by it.
It was. Yeah, that's cool.
Yeah, that's cool. It was so.
Minimal, like you were doing allthese like hand motions, you
know, YouTube listeners, feel free to check that out.
Yes, yeah, it's a it was yeah, just clay and wire and fabric
and paint and just yeah, no realin all in camera effects.
(34:17):
No, no digital effects. It's just just, I just put it
there and then moved it. And also you're limited by like
how good your puppet is that youbuild.
So if your puppet puppet is really shitty, then like she
starts. Falling.
Oh, you're like, Oh my God. Really.
OK, we'll go with that. And then that'll make her move
back this way. And, you know, 'cause so they
(34:38):
get, 'cause it's clay on wire. So you start tilting them.
Suddenly they're like. Falling.
I see. So the Wire actually has a huge
role, I guess. Not being a sculptor I like.
That's not something I. Wouldn't.
Yeah, the what? The aluminum wire holds up the
stop motion puppets. Yeah, like Gumby style, like
Perry housing, all that stuff, Yeah.
(34:58):
I see. And that and you're using like a
Sculpey or something. It's a oil based clay.
It called Van Aiken brand. It's a oil based clay, so it
never dries, so you can work on a shot for years if you wanted
to. You know it would never you,
just you. Know that's how you're getting
that blending because you're just like layering and layering.
(35:20):
Yeah, the the yeah, yeah. Awesome.
OK, well another question. We've got a nice compliment.
They are asking about the ship from fantastical creatures and
characters to more landscape, which feels more observed and
was that a conscious choice? And yeah, and I would follow up
(35:41):
with that, Is that connected to like plan air or like a
lifestyle move at all? I yeah, I think, well, like I
was telling you earlier that my mom is a planer painter and that
my aunt and, and my uncle and they were, you know, a lot of,
and painters in the family and artists in the family, but a lot
of planer. And so I was doing at a really
young age, but I would go down to the beach and do planer
(36:05):
paintings and pastels and try and hustle them to people, excel
them and. We wish beach like.
I grew up in San Diego wind and sea beach.
So you just go down there, Yeah.I lived like two blocks from the
beach and would. Would you do well with it?
No. No, I mean I sold some things,
you know. Yeah, I think I designed some
(36:27):
woman's for the she was running for the school board and I when
I was like 13, I like designed her envelopes and I was really
happy. And then I did, I got a little
job, Jane Kligger for you and I was like 1415 or something.
And I did some sculpting of foam, sculpting of columns and
things when I was also around that age.
So I was getting little art jobswhen I was young as my mom was a
(36:51):
journeyman artist and she did like courtroom illustration and
she did murals and fashion illustration.
My aunt was a fashion illustrator on the 60s in New
York and a lot of. Fell in at all?
I feel like there is a kind of fashion sensibility.
Yeah, well, for sure. I mean, they just, they were,
yeah, a lot of commercial arts in my family background fashion,
(37:18):
yeah, I mean, definitely I was into that a little bit, but I
don't know if I think about it that much.
But fashion, but. But yeah, but the switch that
you were asking about, I don't even know if I answered that
question, but the switch, I don't know.
Yeah. The fantastical to the real.
I don't know why. I just, I think like during
COVID, I just was home and I wasjust appreciating where I was in
(37:40):
the change and was just, I don'tknow, just being present and
where I was, where I was living and finding things that I wanted
to put down in the work. And is that you did like the
mountaine piece, trying to remember, was that the moth
piece or like the landscape? I did my last my well, not my
(38:03):
no. I'm trying to remember my last
film, yeah. Oh, Purple Mountain, that's.
What it was? 2022 was my last film painted on
paint on paper, like wash on paper.
And every frame is same thing, all traditionally animated, like
wash on paper, every frame not made in the computer, just just
animated. And but I yeah, I sat in front
(38:25):
of this mountain that I'm staring at right now.
That's the San Jacinto and I just, it's just this giant
purple mountain. So I sat in front of it during
COVID and painted it every day or a few times a day or skip a
day or here or there. Wasn't perfect, but so it was
just the same frame and I had toregister and I just did it over
and over and over again. And then it so then it'd be
(38:47):
that's the film. It became just the mountain.
Yeah, we've got a question aboutwhat is your process when making
your new ceramic pieces? Are you sketching them first?
I do a lot of drawings. Yeah, for everything.
I do a lot of drawings. Yeah, definitely.
I do a lot of drawings and sometimes watercolors or
(39:10):
gouaches and. Yeah, definitely.
And then, and then, but then it changes, you know how it goes.
You get in there and then it. And then the shape clay has a
mind of its own. Or you're like, I want it to be
this shape and that's. And then you're like, OK, let's
go in that way and and you work with it and let the happy
accidents happen. I mean, even, yeah, that feels
(39:32):
like the connection between drawing and oil paint or
something. It's really hard to get the same
mark making and. But yeah, yeah, 'cause that you
want to work with the material as it is, and I could see play
being like that. It's so lumpy, yeah.
Yeah, it's something cracks and they all got to cover this and
yeah, yeah, all. Right.
(39:54):
Was there anything about making the series for Dumb Phone that
surprised you or anything that came up like that was new?
Because how long have you been working on the work for the
show? It's from the year, from over
this year, 2024, I think that I was planning on it being all
ceramics, but then I got excitedto do some paintings.
(40:17):
And then I had I had a painting that I had done during COVID
that I put in that I worked on alittle bit again this year.
That was like my 2020 painting. And and yeah, I think the spoon
surprised me that I that I started using them like a
journal. That was a surprise.
I didn't expect to do that. But then I just felt like this
(40:38):
intense drive to, you know, say these things that were bothering
me and or that, you know, I wanted to say.
So it was probably a surprise. Yeah, for me.
Do you have anything that you'reworking on now?
Do you give yourself time off orwhat's the kind of creative life
cycle like for you? Because I imagine you have at
(40:59):
least a show a year and so like,how do you manage your energy
and. Yeah, well, right now I have
nothing planned. That's great.
No, I, I like it. It feels good for a little bit
and then I start like I think I mean.
It feels bad, yeah. But right now it's nice because
I just finished, but I've I've doing some we have.
(41:20):
Yeah, my, we do The Nutcracker, though.
I'm performing in The Nutcrackerwith my daughter.
Oh my God, cute. So what?
What are your roles? I just play the, you know, like
the parents in the beginning. And so they just, they try and
get, they don't have enough older people, so they need
parents. And and then I'm also doing the
Russian scene. That's really hard.
(41:43):
Yeah. Well, they're doing it as tap,
so it's a little easier, but notthat tap is easier, but it's
easier for me. But.
It's not like the jumping. I feel like, yeah, there's a
jump, there's a. Lot of jumping and turning.
Yeah, there's that, but there's two like two older people in it,
and then there's teenagers in itand they're doing all the hard
stuff and we just stand in the back and do some simple things.
(42:06):
But it's really fun. And right now, yeah, I'm just,
yeah, just I can't wait to get back to the ceramic studio and
work on more kind of functional things.
I feel like right now I'm excited to do some functional
things, yeah. And how do you know when you're
in this? It's almost like there's like a
(42:27):
vacuum after you finish a show. And sometimes in my experience,
there's a thread from the old show that feels like, yes, I
will continue. I'm super excited to work on
this more versus not. Yeah, I, I had some things I
didn't get to do. There's always things, you know,
(42:48):
you have this, you're in business, you have all the stuff
you want to do and then you don't get it.
But it's nice to have things, you know, that you still want to
do more things. I mean, that's a nice feeling to
not feel like I did everything. I would never want to feel that
way and to. Feel still excited about the
work, but has there ever been a point where you're like done?
(43:09):
I mean, I guess with moving fromthe kind of creature world to
landscape, you're just like, this is not what I'm interested
in. Totally.
You can maybe get a lot more shows with the same work.
Totally, Yeah, Yeah. And I don't, I, I tend not to do
those things. And, you know, I, I'm sure it
hasn't helped me, but I, I just can't do things that I don't
(43:30):
want to do. They just don't come out good,
you know? And it's, but I know, yeah,
there's definitely things like that, that.
But I think, I think that I lostmy train of thought.
But I what was the question? Well, just yeah, that like kind
of feeling of a vacuum where youdon't have the show yet and
you're like deciding about the new thing and it's sometimes it
(43:51):
makes sense to keep going with what you were doing, and other
times it doesn't. And like.
How you generate that? Like where you feel done?
Yeah. And you, how do you get to that
new body of work? Like what?
What is the sign that like, oh, this is enough for a new whole
show? Or yeah, I just like a just
complete feeling of repulsion. I do not want to do that.
(44:13):
I don't want to look at that. I don't want to touch it to the
canvas. I do that a lot with painting.
I get so sick of painting and I'm like, I hate the smell.
I don't want to, sorry. I don't hate anything, but I
don't like the smell and I like just don't want to do it at all
and then send it like, Oh my God, I have to paint, you know,
and like, oh, I have this idea and I'll take time off.
(44:34):
I'll take a year. I take like a year, like a year
and a half off from painting andthen I'll come back to it or.
I mean that takes good. Yeah, like you really, how do
you like keep non attachment around because I mean I assume
you have demands from the galleries you work with.
Do you have that conversation? I'm just not going to do those
right now. Or what's.
Up there for you. They've all been pretty good
(44:55):
Nobody. I never really felt pressured
that, you know, I definitely have people offer their
opinions, you know, hey, the people like this thing or
whatever and I, I, it doesn't really bother me.
I, I like hearing that, but I, Idon't, I just say, OK, cool, but
I don't, I don't feel the need to do it if I, because I know if
(45:15):
I try, it just won't come out. If I try and do something I
don't want to do, it's like not going to come out the way I want
to. But yeah, waiting for it to
circle back around maybe. But yeah, I think for sure,
yeah, definitely. I don't know.
It's, if it's ball, I mean, it'sjust, I don't know, you could
say it's not balls that you could say you got to do that
(45:36):
thing, you know, but I don't know.
It's I just, it's hard for me todo that.
And yeah. And I mean, it sounds like you
have a really strong connection to your like inner voice, if
you're able to hear that over maybe the perks and demands of
the art world kind of hook that is always maybe there once you
(45:59):
get a certain. So how do you stay tuned into
that? I mean I guess maybe having a
dumb phone would help. Yeah, it does help, but not
having you know, I don't look yeah, I'm not online very much,
but I yeah, it's and it's not easy all the time.
Like I definitely you don't haveinsecurity about.
I'm not like trying to say that it's some easy thing, but it but
(46:23):
I think I, I might almost feel like I would do it if I was
capable of. I just, I'm just not, you know,
if I, it would probably be better for everyone if I just
did something, you know, that I feel like I don't know, people
want it or something, but I just, I just just, I was like, I
just, it doesn't come out. Yeah, that's cool.
(46:44):
OK, I've tried it. Yeah.
Oh, go ahead. You did try doing.
It I've tried it and it the, thewhen I was younger, I think I've
tried those things and I just, Isee why, you know, you can't do
things that according to market or whatever, you know.
I see yeah, 'cause you just didn't like how they turned out.
They. Just they just they're not good.
Yeah, for me. OK, we got two more questions.
(47:09):
What painters inspire you? As well as, you know, any other
kind of art forms that might inspire you.
But painters? So, so many.
I'm so mad at myself because I wanted to write down the names
of a couple newer people that I've liked a lot.
But maybe we can you can post them or something, but I can't
remember them right now. I never remember their names.
(47:31):
But I mean, like, my old favorites are always Bonard and
Burchfield and I mean Matisse and, you know, Van Gogh and all
these people. But yeah, like I've been a lot
on Bernard and Birchfield for years now.
That makes. Sense, yeah, and and.
Are you into Monet or is he too?Yeah, totally.
(47:52):
I like all the, I like all the old stuff.
I mean, I like, yeah, like having paint like painters in
the family, like every calendar was the French impressionist
calendar all the time. Everything napkins, like
everything like. Oh.
My God, Cute little Monet napkins, Yeah.
Like, yeah, like mugs, all the different art painter, old
(48:16):
French, old old white men, French composition as mugs, you
know? But yeah, no, I'm a fan of, I
love Manet maybe more than Monetand I love the knobbies and like
ball Balsus and. That's a name.
I was trying to think of the other last night, actually.
Balthus. I was like trying to be name,
(48:36):
yeah. With the cats.
Yeah, yeah. And Dicks love Dicks.
Auto Dicks. Cassatt, sorry to come up with
these like on the spur. I know the younger though, like
the new painters and ceramicistsworking, they want to write it
down and give it to you so you could post it or something.
That'd be. Great.
(48:56):
Yeah, there's there's some people doing such good stuff
right now and it's so inspiring.I love Lynette.
Yeah. OK, I don't know if.
Oh my gosh, me too. Yeah.
I love those paintings are so good.
Yeah. She just had to show it the tape
a couple of years ago. Amazing for people who want to
look her up. Amazing, yeah.
(49:18):
OK, we got one more question. Maybe that'll be the The final
question is, do you love animalsor are you inspired by nature at
large? Or do you just enjoy painting
animals a lot? I love animals.
Are you a real lover of animals or is it just a show?
I really love animals. Yeah, I was going to ask you
about your your your pets. Like what kind of creature?
(49:41):
Right now we have 2 cats we got from the Desert Hot Springs
Animal Shelter and we've got Rickles who is our little white
post ball dog saying. Oh yeah, the famous dog.
Oh yeah. That's him, yes, and he is
shaved right now, so he doesn't look like what he looks like in
the painting, but he. He's that's a lot of hair to
(50:04):
sometimes. He gets a little warm with the
hair. He's.
Yeah, yeah, that's what we have right now.
But I grew up with a lot of cats, and my mom always had the
12 cats. My mom, I don't think she's
listening, but she would steal people's cats from the
neighborhood. So I can say that because she's
not here. But no, they would.
The cat would come to the house and then she'd feed it bacon.
(50:27):
She was like in her little witchy ways and she was like,
oh, there was a child being meanto that cat, so I've got no
teeth. Oh, wow.
And then you ended up with 12 and they were all like, yeah,
we, we see them. They're at your house.
Like they're running around youryard.
Yeah. It's not very.
I was like, well, it's for the best.
That child was putting clothes on that cat, OK.
(50:47):
Oh, OK, Mom did, she heard. This.
Did you ever have angry neighbors come over and.
No, not really, although we do have angry neighbors.
My Aunt Nora, who's she's 91, she lives with my parents and
they're all living together at the house and with my brother
and his wife and she steals plants from the neighborhood.
But that's like everyone does ita little bit, yeah, maybe like
(51:12):
trouble. She got a letter.
Someone sent a letter that she took a plant.
Oh, that was one angry neighbor.So full potted plants.
It was like she she took a plantthat was planted somewhere and
she moved it and then replanted it somewhere else in their yard
because she thought it wasn't planted in the right place.
Oh my gosh. So her heart was in the right
(51:33):
place. Totally.
Wow, OK, that's so funny. Those are some nosy witch ladies
there. Yeah, it's like a bit of a grey
garden situation at home. They're not listening, so I can
say. That Yeah, well, it's it's.
I say would love because I love.Exactly Yes.
Grey Gardens lanes but very special.
Oh, my gosh. Well, you should make some
(51:53):
paintings just about them. Yeah.
I mean, now knowing that, I do feel like the three characters,
like I'm just imagining them. Yeah, well, a lot of actually a
lot of the paintings I did like the hobo clown and the and some
of the the clowns were based offof myself, my my mom, my dad, my
(52:13):
brother, my aunt Nora and my andand Eric Yonker, my husband.
Yeah, yeah, they were based. So a lot of those I used my
human form with there and then painted on top of.
I love that. All right, well, thank you
everyone so much for being a part of this conversation.
(52:35):
And thank you so much to Allisonfor being my guest today on the
side. Woo, where?
Where can we find you since you're not on Instagram?
Really. Where can we find?
Well, I have a website. It's Allison Scholnick dot me.
That's my and I'll keep it updated.
Allison Scholnick dot me and andthen of course at the Pit and
(52:55):
the PPOW websites. Yeah, and dumb Phone.
The show at The Pit in Los Angeles will be open to the 21st
until the 21st of December. Yeah, I see it in person.
Yeah, it's so great. I mean the texture and
everything is amazing. If you want to follow along with
the Side Woo, I'll be doing moretalks.
I might be doing another talk this month maybe through my sub
(53:19):
stack, which is called art Date.So you can go to
artdate.substack.com to subscribe.
Otherwise, find the Side Woo on all the the platforms for
podcasts, you know, Apple Podcasts, Spotify and all the
others. But yeah, thank you so much
everyone. Have a good one.
Thank you. That's all for this week's
(53:46):
episode. Thank you so much for listening.
This was your host, TiVo with Sound Editing Help by Natasha
Lowey. If you love this episode, please
share it with a friend, write usa review, and give us five stars
for good karma points. To watch along, subscribe to our
YouTube channel and see all of our videos and live pop
recordings there. Thanks so much for listening.
(54:08):
See you next time on the side view.
Hello and welcome to the side Woo.
This is your host, Tebow, helping you navigate the wild
and mysterious path that is the creative life.
Join me as I ask our guests about the tools they use to help
them survive in the creative wilderness.
OK, well welcome everybody. Thank you so much.
(00:23):
This is Tebow with the Side Woo podcast and I am super excited.
I'm a big fan of today's guest. We have Allison Scholnick, who
is an artist, animator, sculptor.
I'm trying to think what else you said.
Filmmaker and originally from San Diego, but currently living
(00:46):
out in the desert in Sky Valley.And we're going to try to keep
the talk under an hour because apparently there's a threatening
wind that's on its way. So we're going to try to, like,
work with the weather. But yeah, thank you so much,
Allison, Welcome. Thanks for having me, I'm glad
to be here. Yeah.
So we will do some Q&A at the end about 45 minutes in.
(01:08):
But if you have any questions, feel free to pop them in.
I'm going to try to keep an eye on the chat and just to kick
things off, I always start with what sign are you like Western
sun, astrology sign? I'm Libra, OH.
Cool, it's a recent birthday. Yes, yes, yes, kinda.
(01:30):
Yeah. That actually feels very right
as a an artist and I don't know how does that come up for you.
Do you have a lot of other placements in Libra or?
I don't know. I don't know too much about it.
I everyone who I tell I'm a Libra too, they're like, Oh yes,
yes, we'll do like Libra. Venus rules Libra, and I feel
(01:53):
like everyone, like, immediatelyassociates Venus with art.
Oh, and, like, beauty, you know?At least, Yeah, that's what I
was told to anyway. But then also social justice
and, like, being balanced. That makes sense.
Cool. Well, we'll just keep that in
mind as we go through the conversation.
(02:15):
I feel like your work is really witchy and has this like kind of
pseudo like spiritual subtext toit, thinking about nature and
these kind of like mystical creatures, like like elementals,
like a lot of your animation deals with, you know, the
animation of flowers and trees and thinking about death and
(02:40):
like transformation through these kind of like cycles of
nature. But I'm curious if, you know,
there's any kind of like spiritual like belief system
underneath that belief system isa very formal word.
So I don't really know how to explain that.
But yeah. Is there any kind of like
mystical beliefs that you have around nature or your art or
(03:01):
anything that you were brought in from growing up that informs
like your the way you think about your work?
Yeah, I mean, yeah, I don't know.
I we were talking about this. I I think for me, I think, I
think it when I think of spirituality, I think of it is
greater than like art and naturefor me.
And, and just being having a community of people and being
(03:24):
connected to people and to nature and and I think the yeah,
the wanting, the animating, bringing things to life that I
make with my hands. I don't know, it's, it feels
just natural for me and I just, I like being able to make worlds
and that are just completely from my head.
(03:46):
And I don't know, it's almost just like an expression of
maybe, yeah, my spirituality in that way that it's just really
about art and nature for me, I think.
Yeah, cool. And are you witchy at all?
Do you do the moon ritual because your work feels made by
someone who's been out in the darkness of the night making
symbols in the dirt, You know, and you live in the desert,
(04:08):
which is a witchy place to live.Yeah, I, I tell my daughter
we're good witches. I, I know that I have a
relative. I know that I have a like a
great aunt that was burned at the stake in Salem.
But no, I, I'm just, I don't know.
I love the idea of of witchinessand I just love the idea of just
this feeling of creating things and out of out of nature and
(04:35):
things that you just would, you know, maybe, I don't know, just
trying to really focus on maybe the darkness that I have inside,
but also the light and how that comes out.
I know it comes off as as witchyand I love that.
And yeah, I don't know, maybe it's hard for me to say.
(04:57):
No, don't totally. That's OK.
I mean, I think what you said about bringing out the inner
darkness too. I was going through your movies
that you've made, the animation movies, and there is this
celebration of the misfit. You know, you have these kind of
slightly decrepit looking characters and sad clowns and
(05:21):
hobos. And they're all a little bit
like they've gotten the sad end of the life stick, but they're
also in community with one another.
And there is like a joyfulness in their just acceptance of one
another as they like do their dancing and like, they're kind
of like flowy movements. I don't know if you could talk.
(05:43):
I mean, I, I realize like the animations you did, the
claymations are about 10 years at least at this time.
So I don't know if it feels comfortable to talk about them,
but I was just they're so gorgeous.
Like your work is, you know, very masterfully done with the
materiality of all the like clayand.
(06:04):
Well, I mean, yeah, you just explained it so much better than
I would feel like. But I, yeah, I, I think that I
think that the animations were, I mean, at all my work is really
exercising demons and, and, and like letting the monsters out
and like to deal with them and to, to be OK with them and to
accept them and, and to be. Yeah, at is some find some kind
(06:27):
of piece. You know, I feel like that's why
we all make work, right. So it just was that too.
And I think animation was like, and, and some of the sculptures
I've been working on too, they're the ceramics, they're so
involved and detailed and they take a long time to do it.
I mean, animation takes even longer, like a year or whatever,
you know, you're doing 24 framesa second and you're doing
(06:48):
thousands of frames, you know? Yeah.
Can you talk about that? Like how do you keep going and
how do you stay focused? I feel like I want to talk about
this to you later with the technology piece, but feel like
I become more and more ADHD and I don't know if that is because
I'm working from home and have alot of Zoom meetings and the
smartphone stuff, but how did you stay focused during that
(07:11):
time making? That well, gosh, I mean, I made,
yeah, I did make those. I mean, I made the watercolor
films that I did recently, more recently like 2 years.
I made one, I think it was 2022,so two years ago.
But like the other ones that were longer and more involved,
kind of those took a lot of time.
(07:34):
And I don't know how I, I, I didn't have a child that I and
it was yeah, pre all this. I feel like it was pre I well,
there was, there was 10 years ago.
I mean, yeah, there's social media.
I wasn't super involved in it, but.
It was lighter. It was lighter, yeah, it felt.
It's so I feel like you it's so hard to be present with
(07:55):
technology the way technology isnow, how it's like just
all-encompassing all of our lives all the time that I feel
like it was easier than to focus.
But that's why, you know, as we talked about that I, you know,
took a step back from all that and not that I was heavily
involved, but I but yeah, I do think that might have something
to do it with it also having children also, I think, yeah,
(08:16):
maybe the well, and I was, I hate to say I was younger and I
had more energy, but but you know, the film, but the the
films I do now are just more focused, I think.
And they're just, I don't know, maybe even more honest.
I don't know. But I I feel like I'd have less
time and less less energy maybe.So I really focus when I work
(08:37):
and I really just think about what what I really want to do.
And I think more about process than the final outcome.
I think about what what am I? What is making me feel not
necessarily good, but like a waythat I want to like.
What is helping me to feel like the expression that I want to
feel in that moment? It's funny, I worked this job as
(09:02):
a sales like a recruiter and oneof the really, and they're very
like sports heavy as a company culture.
And they would always say trust the process and they would have
this really elaborate way of getting clients and stuff.
And it was such an obnoxious thing to hear over and over
again. But I do think it's like really
real for a lot of other aspects of life where it's really just
(09:24):
about building on yesterday. I know it's always like the
most, the corniest, most like the dorkiest things that are
just like, well, but it makes a lot of sense for me right now.
No, I know they say it for a reason.
I hate it though. But yeah, it is, it is like
real. And I mean, I feel like when I
look at your animations especially, but also all your
(09:46):
other work, it's you can feel the process really built into
the fabric of like the meaning of the work too.
Yeah, because the claymation youlike see the hand without the
actual hand, you know, as you'removing the the figures around
and everything. Could you just talk about one
day of making an animation? Like how many frames do you get
(10:08):
through? What are you doing?
I feel like this is something that not a lot of 2D artists do
because it is so time consuming.So the fact that you've done all
the things. Yeah, it it depends on the film
and depends on like the time, but like it varies.
I mean there would be days whereI like with mound I have 100
like at least 100 characters andI was work.
(10:28):
I animate all by myself, you know, and I just like moving 100
characters for a a shot. I don't, it's like, I don't even
remember how long the shot was. Maybe it was 30 seconds or
something. But I would do one or two frames
a day. And so I'd just sit and work on
all the characters for the wholeday and then, you know, take
breaks. And.
(10:49):
And by that you mean one photo. Basically that was yeah, it's
like a a photo. There was like 100 characters
and I would go and then and everyone's the fingers like
moving that much and then you move like one piece of hair,
like not even that that much. How did you remember the next
(11:12):
day I. Don't know, I don't know.
You just get super focused when you're, you know how it is.
Like if you're interested in something and get really focused
on it, you know? Yeah, it's like that.
I I, I probably took some notes.Yeah, I probably wrote some
things down. And then So what year did you
have your child or like what year to be you become a parent?
(11:34):
2017, Summer 2017, Yeah. And moved out here to Sky Valley
from LA and July. Oh, my God, I'm sorry.
July 2017, That's when I moved out here.
And then I and then I had my child.
July 2018, Yeah. And so how is that kind of
shifted things for you? Because yeah, your animation
(11:57):
style has changed. Maybe you don't spend a full day
working on one frame. No, Yeah.
Well, I that that was a those years were a big change from me.
I moved out to the desert. I, I had a child.
I, I got, I, I got rid of my smartphone.
Oh, did. That happened around the same
(12:18):
time. That was that was like 2019, I
think it was. And then I got off social media
like 2020 I think, or maybe 29. I can't remember something like
that little group of years. But all those things together
really altered my life a lot. And for for the better and.
Can't add more change in than that unless you.
Yeah, it was a lot. Someone you know, like of
(12:41):
course, like all the major life changes.
Yeah, for for your own self, Yeah, yeah.
So what was that like? Well, just, I'm just trying to
imagine, 'cause I do feel like, you know, your work shifted and
your, it sounds like your life totally shifted.
And then, of course, the pandemic shifted.
Everyone, yeah. Oh, and then COVID happened,
right? That whole thing.
And then, yeah, everything was. What was your kind of internal
(13:05):
narrative like where you like, Iwant a break or I'm happy to
like take this time to be a parent or what was your thought
process? Like I just wanted things to be
different. I think there was some was some
habits when I was living in the city.
I just, I don't know, I just wasn't.
(13:26):
I mean, I, I think, you know, I've always struggled a lot of
us with depression, anxiety, I think, I don't know that it was,
I don't know, I, I don't know ifit was particularly worse at
that time, but I, I just felt like an intense need for change
and, and growth and I just wanted to.
Like personal growth, it sounds like.
Yeah, I just, I just wanted different things.
(13:47):
I wanted to be more with nature and we we are now and I I just
wanted to be but that. But the interesting thing is
that with COVID and moving out here and everything, I actually
I because I spent so many years working alone and I was, I'm
always in my studio alone, working alone.
I don't never had assistance. I never, I worked with one
(14:07):
person that my wonderful, amazing elder K son who's my
cinematographer of my films. But besides that, this really, I
didn't really work with anyone ever.
And so I was like had a really like solitary life for 10 years
and coming out here, I thought that I wanted more of that.
But then after COVID and everything I found like this
intense need to be around peopleand be parts of communities.
(14:29):
And, and actually, even though I'm more secluded here, I, I
have to go into town every day. I drive 30 minutes, 3540,
sometimes minutes, sometimes an hour to town to go to take my
daughter to school. And then I go work at a pottery
studio where where there's people and I go to dance classes
in town and I might start teaching dancer thinking.
(14:50):
I've just been doing a lot of things that are like in the
community and with the school and everything, trying to be a
part of all the communities morethan way more than I was when I
was in LA, which is like full ofpeople and everything.
It's interesting. Yeah, it is super interesting.
Yeah. In some ways you're yeah, you're
dialing back like the hustle andbustle.
(15:11):
Dialing back the digital life, not that I was really that
involved, but you know, it's, it's impossible not to be
dialing back that and then increasing my presence in like
physical societies or something.I don't.
Know, like when I feel like 2019was like peak utopia of
Instagram where all the photos 'cause I was a social media
(15:34):
manager for a company I spent a lot of time and that really
influenced my work 'cause I was always like looking at Instagram
for my job. And I think that was the era
where everything was really flawless and perfect.
And then when COVID hit, it was like dystopia and imagery and
everyone was like really dark and messed up photos.
(15:55):
I don't know. So it was like probably a good
time to get off anyway. Yeah.
But. I don't miss it.
Did you feel like pressure at all?
Because I do feel like you were having like a moment, you know,
with all your I mean, maybe it came earlier, but like with your
animations, you got so much attention for those.
(16:15):
And I mean, did you feel like there was like the art world
hook at all that you had to detach from or?
I don't know. I mean, I definitely felt like
there was like, you know, there's always that feeling
like, you know, if I, if I leave, if I leave social media
and don't have a smartphone, I live out.
I'm not going to shows in LA. Like I'm not told, do I
disappear? Do I like, will people just
(16:37):
forget me? And I, I don't know, it's just
you have to, I guess I got to the point I'm like, well, it
doesn't really matter. You know, it's just nothing
really matters except being a kind person and, and like loving
people and, you know, like contributing in some positive
way to the communities you're involved in or not or whatever.
(16:59):
So what does it matter? I mean, yeah, I don't know if
that answered the question. Yeah, no, for sure.
And then I mean, I guess to talksegue into your current show
called Dumb Phone, you're using a pared down iPhone that's out
of date, right? I have a flip phone that I use
for my phone. Oh, you do OK.
Yeah, it's a flip phone and thenI have a AA5I like AI don't know
(17:24):
it's like a, it's the same one I've had.
I think it's a 5S iPhone from like 2000. 16 or something.
Yeah, maybe 2014 or something. And it's obsolete, so it doesn't
work, but it works for a podcast, which is mine.
So I have my podcast and my music on there and I use it like
an iPod. And so it, it doesn't this the
(17:47):
web browser doesn't work. I can't really download new
apps. So it's great.
It's like a, it's an, it's like an old school iPod.
Yeah. But it has Apple Music, which I
like, so yeah. When did you fully start the
flip phone life? Well, I, you know, I was
remembering that I actually got 1.
I had, when I got, I had a iPhone, I got my first iPhone, I
(18:09):
think it was like 2013. And then I had it for five years
or something. And then I remember the
second-half of having and I got a flip phone and I'm like, well,
I'm not going to have my iPhone at my work.
So I had a flip phone at work. And then I I just ended up
getting rid of it all together and then.
OK. So I've, I had it for about 5
years and then I I've had my flip phone for five years.
OK, so 2018 or something? Yeah, like maybe 2019.
(18:33):
I think it was, yeah, yeah, 'cause I feel like for me, I
started traveling abroad and so I would use like a burner phone
to communicate with local people, 'cause yeah, for texting
or whatever. But then I did do a month and
1/2 this spring with for like flip phone February if people
are interested in trying out dipping their toe into the water
(18:55):
of dumb phone life. But I will have to say it was
really hard because I do live ina city and I don't know the
area. And I was like trying to get
around and trying to do things that normally you're like out
and about and you can easily quick do the thing to figure out
where to go next or how to contact.
(19:15):
So do you feel like when you go other places it's harder or
cause where you are now it sounds like pretty cozy and you
can probably figure out a lot ofthings without having to.
I, yeah, I haven't, I, I, I like, yeah, I mean, yeah, it, it
would be a challenge, I think I,the places I go to, you know,
Southern California, which I know I go to New York, which I
(19:38):
know, you know, so I know these places really well and I don't
need it. And I am, and I've, and I've
been doing it for, you know, 40 years, you know, so, you know,
it's easier for someone maybe myage that's been doing it for.
Yeah, but then, but then I did, I did compile a list of tips to
for people to drop their smartphone because I know it can
(20:00):
be hard. And I actually wrote a list of
things that you can do that makeit easier.
Like I have a Garmin in my car, so it pretty much can get around
anywhere. And you know if you were.
You have a what? A.
Not even a thing anywhere. A.
Garmin is that AGPS thing? Yeah.
It's a navigation system, but I got, I think I got it like 15
(20:21):
years ago or 20 years ago. Yeah, it's a.
Yeah, it's just a. It's just a navigation system,
but works by satellites. Got.
It yeah, it's just, it works great and I can get anywhere
that I don't know how to go. I just, you know.
And what about not to spend too much time on?
Well, I would love to, you know,see your list because yeah, it
is hard. It's like there's so many
(20:42):
pieces. And I think the thing that I've
talked to someone who made a light a like a dumb phone called
the Light Phone. And he's like, we recommend that
people have something else they want to spend time on because
you end up with these like chunks of time where you don't
have anything to do because you used to be on the phone.
So I bring books to read. I have books.
(21:05):
I I have a Garmin. I have a camera.
I have what else? I have a, a landline at my home
so that the phones are 'cause myhusband has a smartphone and
but, you know, he turns, you know, he turns it off at a
certain time or puts it away. And we don't have it, you know,
in, in, in the bedroom. We don't have it at the at the
(21:27):
dinner table, you know, we don't, We have rules about it,
you know, and if we and, and when it does help, if, you know,
you have a group that you're traveling with, if one person
had one, sure, yeah, that would make it easier.
But the idea of it is that, yeah, it's a, it's a little bit
harder to have a flip phone and to live a digitally minimal
life, but it, it's a little bit harder.
(21:48):
But it's, but it's worth the, it's worth it, you know, like
for me, that's how I feel. And how have you seen, Like, for
me, I did a lot more plan air painting because I would have
all this time in the morning or,you know, just, I felt like
anxious to get that energy out of what's going on.
So I would go and do something. Yeah.
Like, productive. But so for you, how did that
(22:11):
manifest itself? Like maybe at the beginning, I
don't know if you remember. Yeah, I mean, I just, I, I find
I've read a lot more books, I'vegotten more work done.
I I can't imagine how hard it would be with my amount of focus
and attention span at this current moment, at this point in
my life, if I did have it. I I don't even know if I could
get anything done. It's so distracting.
(22:32):
You know, when I do go on to check e-mail, it's just, it's
been an hour and it's for two hours and it's, you know, so I
could have been reading my book,but.
Right. Yeah, I think yeah, the.
Books. Do you have any books that
you're currently excited about that you've read?
Yeah, for sure. I mean, they're all kind of
like, well, for sure the best book I've read in a long time.
(22:56):
The anxious generation by Jonathan hate having a young kid
in school. It's insane.
The whole change of childhood. Childhood is completely it's not
even anything re recognize anymore.
And it's not it's it's it's a phone based it.
He talks about the idea of childhood becoming from play
(23:17):
based childhood to phone based childhood.
And so the kids are their live center around phones,
smartphones, and so that was really catastrophic.
To read. But also the second-half is full
of solutions and it's. Really.
OK, good, 'cause I'm like, that sounds really brutal.
The first half I was like, I can't, I can't go on.
(23:38):
But then you're like, well, that's me too.
Oh, yeah, totally. Definitely.
Yeah, yes. Everybody and then thinking of
the next humans to be sending. Forward.
How do we dial this back? I mean, I guess, yeah, for me,
I'm like, it's one thing to slowdown or to temporarily, you
(23:58):
know, but to really slow the entire culture of, yeah, maybe
the one person has a smartphone,but what if we none of us did
like, or, you know, how do we like dial things back when
they've gotten kind of so accelerated?
Everything feels very fast And like my expectation is that
everything can be done really quickly.
(24:19):
And I think it goes to what you talk about in your show with the
spoons is like the slowing down allows you to notice.
But let's be real, it's like cutting an addict addiction.
It's not really that fun at first, you know, like.
It's hard at first. Yeah, it is.
It was a challenge. And I was like, oh, can I do
this? You know, 'cause you have to
text the old style. I don't know how many of you
(24:40):
like. Yeah, the T9.
Yeah. Or T9, you know.
Yeah, yeah. And it's harder, but then you
get used to it and then you're like really fast and then it's
nothing, you know, but it's likeit's, it's, I have never been
even moderately or severely or seriously hindered or in danger
because I had a flip phone. You know, it's like there's,
(25:02):
there's mild, there's a mild inconvenience.
And. But there's nothing.
Nothing moderate or or really serious as ever, you know.
Yeah. It's it's yeah, it's a it's a
mild inconvenience, yeah, but when, if.
You travel with a backup too. Like I had my light phone crash
out on me and I couldn't get it to work and.
(25:23):
It was like. Driving from SF back to LA and
so that was a little bit of a problem, but I just had my
backup and I like moved my SIM, you know, so you can always just
keep with you, but. Having a backup or a laptop or
something, yeah. Totally.
Yeah, but the, the flip phones are, I mean, more reliable
because it's an older technologyin a way they could I well, I
(25:44):
don't know, I don't want to say they're more reliable, but
they're, I would love to switch to a light phone because I like
that it has the podcast and everything.
But yeah, the the the flip phone's been great for me, so I
don't need to switch it up yet, but.
Yeah. Well, and yeah, just to like
move away from this depressing topic into your your show.
So, you know, you walk in and there's like a wall full of
(26:08):
spoons that you've made out of ceramics.
Can you talk about like the significance of that and just
like how that came up to you? Yeah, I wanted to make a
wallpaper. I I have been making these
ceramic Wallpapers lately. I did the I had a a situation
where I had like a Bunny and a snake like fighting with each
other outside my door and and itwas really weird.
(26:30):
But like this the Bunny was the aggressor.
It was really strange. It lasted like an hour and they
were just like facing off and then biting each other.
It was. A Bunny gonna eat the snake or
what? I don't know what happened.
It was a rosy boa which are likedocile so they're not like they
don't have venom or anything. But eventually it it makes
sniffed in. It was the.
Rabbit like the jackrabbit cuz there.
(26:52):
It was a little regular regular,a little regular Bunny rabbit.
So wild. I would have pulled a tarot card
on that. I would have been like what is
this about? I know it was weird, but then I
made a wallpaper vessels this bunnies mistakes and I just
wanted to make the wallpaper. That was that it was, you know,
that you could feel like a sculpture.
So they were sculptural little elements like a wallpaper.
(27:15):
And then so then I this time I was like, well, I want to do
something else. And then I just, I, I don't
know, I just thought of, I just thought spoons.
I wasn't going to put like messages on them at first.
I just was going to make spoons thinking of like feeding and I
don't know, being in service or what do you have a spoon soup?
I don't know. But I was just thinking of it
(27:35):
felt loving to me. I don't know.
And and then I just started making it like a journal.
Yeah, like I started making it like a journal.
So it became a journal for me. And then I would just write
things that I was thinking aboutthat day or and just worked on
it for a long time this year with along with other things and
that's where it came. From Oh, I love that, and I like
the idea that it's like a wallpaper installation.
(27:59):
Like you could have objects on your wallpaper instead of it
just being flat. Yeah, I love wallpaper so.
You do? Yeah.
I would cover every room and theceiling and the floor in
wallpaper. Oh yeah, and the second the new
owners one day will be like Oh my God, so much wallpaper.
Yes, as you can see, everything around me is filled.
(28:21):
I know you do have. I have a collage of different.
Yeah, that's great. No, I love it.
I like maxed out. Yeah, maximalist here.
But yeah, I mean the in the press release they talk about
like the poem or the writing about the spoons and how every
minute like that you're able to notice the present is like a
(28:45):
spoon. I don't know if that was
something that you. No, they, they found that and I
loved it and they often it's nice to have a gallery that you
work with. They're they're so they're
wonderful and they just, yeah, they found that and I just felt
right and felt. Connected.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I liked it because I do
think like the present moment asthis.
(29:08):
I mean, if you're Eckhart Tolle,it is literally the only thing,
right? But just using it as a source
for inspiration and like having that be enough rather than
always needing to like augment, you know, the moment.
I think there's a lot of that, like for me with smartphone, but
(29:29):
also just the mentality of beingin a big city, always trying to
make things better or get more or I think it's just like the
mindset, you know, I don't know if it's 'cause we're in
California even around like being spiritual, like how can I
be more present, you know, like even though it's like a
competition with yourself. Right, right.
Always looking for answers and looking for fixes or something,
(29:53):
yeah. Yeah.
And so there's just this like embrace of the moment and then
the making of it, which you had to be really present for that,
and the kind of accumulation of the spoons as a way to Showtime.
I think that was really successful for me.
Yeah, thank you. And yeah, I just all of my work
(30:14):
is really about the handmade andthe human made and and you know,
I don't, I don't use just with AI and all this thing everything
going on with I don't know, I just want it.
I like, I mean, I've always madethings like this and I just, I
want to continue to make things that celebrate, you know, just
like being human and having a hand and using it and, and
(30:39):
having things that come to my brain and then about my hand,
you know, like no machine can, you know.
Yeah, We had a question about dance that I thought, Oh yeah,
was good. You.
I remember listening to one of your interviews where you talked
about your choreography and experience as a dancer,
informing your animations, your claymations.
(31:00):
Yeah, yeah. And now you're taking dance
again. What kind of dance are you
taking? Yeah, well, I've always taken
dance my whole life and I've been dancing so I could walk and
it was my first love and but never did anything with it
professionally or anything like that.
Were you like a tap, jazz and ballet?
Oh yeah, I did that too, actually.
Up until a certain age, yeah. Oh, yes, yes, tap, jazz, Malay,
(31:23):
I did. Flamenco I did.
Yeah. And then of course, contemporary
and modern and and all that. And I love it.
And yeah, no, I just, I, it's inme.
I just like whenever I, I love animating because it's dancing
paintings or dancing, you know, it's, that's what I had a
teacher, Jules Engel, who ran the experimental animation
program at Kellards and he and Iwas in the program there and he
(31:46):
as a, as a BFA and he always talked about dance.
He would always show us dance video.
He would always Just Dance movies and the bijou on the big
screen 35mm like all these old dance movies and and and clips
and everything and and yeah, no,I just that's what I loved some
that's what drew me to animationwas that it was so much like
(32:07):
dance. So when I it.
Could be an analog for the Yeah,the form.
Yeah, yeah, for sure, yeah. Just making characters move to
to beats and move and music. And then now I'm just, yeah.
And now I'm still dancing and I have a little group.
I performed Alphabet. So really, here in the desert,
Yeah. Oh, that's so cool.
(32:29):
Yeah. Do you do any choreographing
yourself? I do, yeah, for myself and my
daughter, but, you know, nothing.
I'm working on things, but I yeah, nothing really that I've
really put out in the world. But I mean except for the.
Choreography, except for the film.
Characters. Yeah.
I mean, did you do those at home?
(32:50):
Were you doing them yourself first to figure out like what?
What do I want them to do or? I think I did a little bit,
yeah. And then I, it was just movement
that was like, and you know, just in my mind that for so long
and I didn't, I don't even know if I I choreographed or
whatever. I just kind of started moving
them, you know, let them move themselves almost just what
(33:11):
which way do they want to go? And yeah, wasn't too planned.
In eager, I mean you have this one scene where there's like the
three dancers and they're foldedover and then you have this blue
like moth woman or something. And the way you moved her arms
(33:31):
and hands, it was like she I fora couple seconds of it.
I'm like, is this a person? It is so.
Cool. Like lifelike and proportionate,
but not where everything felt solike real to what a human form
and like modern dance would do. Yeah, you know, it's not.
(33:51):
But I like I got my brain was tricked by it.
It was. Yeah, that's cool.
Yeah, that's cool. It was so.
Minimal, like you were doing allthese like hand motions, you
know, YouTube listeners, feel free to check that out.
Yes, yeah, it's a it was yeah, just clay and wire and fabric
and paint and just yeah, no realin all in camera effects.
(34:17):
No, no digital effects. It's just just, I just put it
there and then moved it. And also you're limited by like
how good your puppet is that youbuild.
So if your puppet puppet is really shitty, then like she
starts. Falling.
Oh, you're like, Oh my God. Really.
OK, we'll go with that. And then that'll make her move
back this way. And, you know, 'cause so they
(34:38):
get, 'cause it's clay on wire. So you start tilting them.
Suddenly they're like. Falling.
I see. So the Wire actually has a huge
role, I guess. Not being a sculptor I like.
That's not something I. Wouldn't.
Yeah, the what? The aluminum wire holds up the
stop motion puppets. Yeah, like Gumby style, like
Perry housing, all that stuff, Yeah.
(34:58):
I see. And that and you're using like a
Sculpey or something. It's a oil based clay.
It called Van Aiken brand. It's a oil based clay, so it
never dries, so you can work on a shot for years if you wanted
to. You know it would never you,
just you. Know that's how you're getting
that blending because you're just like layering and layering.
(35:20):
Yeah, the the yeah, yeah. Awesome.
OK, well another question. We've got a nice compliment.
They are asking about the ship from fantastical creatures and
characters to more landscape, which feels more observed and
was that a conscious choice? And yeah, and I would follow up
(35:41):
with that, Is that connected to like plan air or like a
lifestyle move at all? I yeah, I think, well, like I
was telling you earlier that my mom is a planer painter and that
my aunt and, and my uncle and they were, you know, a lot of,
and painters in the family and artists in the family, but a lot
of planer. And so I was doing at a really
young age, but I would go down to the beach and do planer
(36:05):
paintings and pastels and try and hustle them to people, excel
them and. We wish beach like.
I grew up in San Diego wind and sea beach.
So you just go down there, Yeah.I lived like two blocks from the
beach and would. Would you do well with it?
No. No, I mean I sold some things,
you know. Yeah, I think I designed some
(36:27):
woman's for the she was running for the school board and I when
I was like 13, I like designed her envelopes and I was really
happy. And then I did, I got a little
job, Jane Kligger for you and I was like 1415 or something.
And I did some sculpting of foam, sculpting of columns and
things when I was also around that age.
So I was getting little art jobswhen I was young as my mom was a
(36:51):
journeyman artist and she did like courtroom illustration and
she did murals and fashion illustration.
My aunt was a fashion illustrator on the 60s in New
York and a lot of. Fell in at all?
I feel like there is a kind of fashion sensibility.
Yeah, well, for sure. I mean, they just, they were,
yeah, a lot of commercial arts in my family background fashion,
(37:18):
yeah, I mean, definitely I was into that a little bit, but I
don't know if I think about it that much.
But fashion, but. But yeah, but the switch that
you were asking about, I don't even know if I answered that
question, but the switch, I don't know.
Yeah. The fantastical to the real.
I don't know why. I just, I think like during
COVID, I just was home and I wasjust appreciating where I was in
(37:40):
the change and was just, I don'tknow, just being present and
where I was, where I was living and finding things that I wanted
to put down in the work. And is that you did like the
mountaine piece, trying to remember, was that the moth
piece or like the landscape? I did my last my well, not my
(38:03):
no. I'm trying to remember my last
film, yeah. Oh, Purple Mountain, that's.
What it was? 2022 was my last film painted on
paint on paper, like wash on paper.
And every frame is same thing, all traditionally animated, like
wash on paper, every frame not made in the computer, just just
animated. And but I yeah, I sat in front
(38:25):
of this mountain that I'm staring at right now.
That's the San Jacinto and I just, it's just this giant
purple mountain. So I sat in front of it during
COVID and painted it every day or a few times a day or skip a
day or here or there. Wasn't perfect, but so it was
just the same frame and I had toregister and I just did it over
and over and over again. And then it so then it'd be
(38:47):
that's the film. It became just the mountain.
Yeah, we've got a question aboutwhat is your process when making
your new ceramic pieces? Are you sketching them first?
I do a lot of drawings. Yeah, for everything.
I do a lot of drawings. Yeah, definitely.
I do a lot of drawings and sometimes watercolors or
(39:10):
gouaches and. Yeah, definitely.
And then, and then, but then it changes, you know how it goes.
You get in there and then it. And then the shape clay has a
mind of its own. Or you're like, I want it to be
this shape and that's. And then you're like, OK, let's
go in that way and and you work with it and let the happy
accidents happen. I mean, even, yeah, that feels
(39:32):
like the connection between drawing and oil paint or
something. It's really hard to get the same
mark making and. But yeah, yeah, 'cause that you
want to work with the material as it is, and I could see play
being like that. It's so lumpy, yeah.
Yeah, it's something cracks and they all got to cover this and
yeah, yeah, all. Right.
(39:54):
Was there anything about making the series for Dumb Phone that
surprised you or anything that came up like that was new?
Because how long have you been working on the work for the
show? It's from the year, from over
this year, 2024, I think that I was planning on it being all
ceramics, but then I got excitedto do some paintings.
(40:17):
And then I had I had a painting that I had done during COVID
that I put in that I worked on alittle bit again this year.
That was like my 2020 painting. And and yeah, I think the spoon
surprised me that I that I started using them like a
journal. That was a surprise.
I didn't expect to do that. But then I just felt like this
(40:38):
intense drive to, you know, say these things that were bothering
me and or that, you know, I wanted to say.
So it was probably a surprise. Yeah, for me.
Do you have anything that you'reworking on now?
Do you give yourself time off orwhat's the kind of creative life
cycle like for you? Because I imagine you have at
(40:59):
least a show a year and so like,how do you manage your energy
and. Yeah, well, right now I have
nothing planned. That's great.
No, I, I like it. It feels good for a little bit
and then I start like I think I mean.
It feels bad, yeah. But right now it's nice because
I just finished, but I've I've doing some we have.
(41:20):
Yeah, my, we do The Nutcracker, though.
I'm performing in The Nutcrackerwith my daughter.
Oh my God, cute. So what?
What are your roles? I just play the, you know, like
the parents in the beginning. And so they just, they try and
get, they don't have enough older people, so they need
parents. And and then I'm also doing the
Russian scene. That's really hard.
(41:43):
Yeah. Well, they're doing it as tap,
so it's a little easier, but notthat tap is easier, but it's
easier for me. But.
It's not like the jumping. I feel like, yeah, there's a
jump, there's a. Lot of jumping and turning.
Yeah, there's that, but there's two like two older people in it,
and then there's teenagers in itand they're doing all the hard
stuff and we just stand in the back and do some simple things.
(42:06):
But it's really fun. And right now, yeah, I'm just,
yeah, just I can't wait to get back to the ceramic studio and
work on more kind of functional things.
I feel like right now I'm excited to do some functional
things, yeah. And how do you know when you're
in this? It's almost like there's like a
(42:27):
vacuum after you finish a show. And sometimes in my experience,
there's a thread from the old show that feels like, yes, I
will continue. I'm super excited to work on
this more versus not. Yeah, I, I had some things I
didn't get to do. There's always things, you know,
(42:48):
you have this, you're in business, you have all the stuff
you want to do and then you don't get it.
But it's nice to have things, you know, that you still want to
do more things. I mean, that's a nice feeling to
not feel like I did everything. I would never want to feel that
way and to. Feel still excited about the
work, but has there ever been a point where you're like done?
(43:09):
I mean, I guess with moving fromthe kind of creature world to
landscape, you're just like, this is not what I'm interested
in. Totally.
You can maybe get a lot more shows with the same work.
Totally, Yeah, Yeah. And I don't, I, I tend not to do
those things. And, you know, I, I'm sure it
hasn't helped me, but I, I just can't do things that I don't
(43:30):
want to do. They just don't come out good,
you know? And it's, but I know, yeah,
there's definitely things like that, that.
But I think, I think that I lostmy train of thought.
But I what was the question? Well, just yeah, that like kind
of feeling of a vacuum where youdon't have the show yet and
you're like deciding about the new thing and it's sometimes it
(43:51):
makes sense to keep going with what you were doing, and other
times it doesn't. And like.
How you generate that? Like where you feel done?
Yeah. And you, how do you get to that
new body of work? Like what?
What is the sign that like, oh, this is enough for a new whole
show? Or yeah, I just like a just
complete feeling of repulsion. I do not want to do that.
(44:13):
I don't want to look at that. I don't want to touch it to the
canvas. I do that a lot with painting.
I get so sick of painting and I'm like, I hate the smell.
I don't want to, sorry. I don't hate anything, but I
don't like the smell and I like just don't want to do it at all
and then send it like, Oh my God, I have to paint, you know,
and like, oh, I have this idea and I'll take time off.
(44:34):
I'll take a year. I take like a year, like a year
and a half off from painting andthen I'll come back to it or.
I mean that takes good. Yeah, like you really, how do
you like keep non attachment around because I mean I assume
you have demands from the galleries you work with.
Do you have that conversation? I'm just not going to do those
right now. Or what's.
Up there for you. They've all been pretty good
(44:55):
Nobody. I never really felt pressured
that, you know, I definitely have people offer their
opinions, you know, hey, the people like this thing or
whatever and I, I, it doesn't really bother me.
I, I like hearing that, but I, Idon't, I just say, OK, cool, but
I don't, I don't feel the need to do it if I, because I know if
(45:15):
I try, it just won't come out. If I try and do something I
don't want to do, it's like not going to come out the way I want
to. But yeah, waiting for it to
circle back around maybe. But yeah, I think for sure,
yeah, definitely. I don't know.
It's, if it's ball, I mean, it'sjust, I don't know, you could
say it's not balls that you could say you got to do that
(45:36):
thing, you know, but I don't know.
It's I just, it's hard for me todo that.
And yeah. And I mean, it sounds like you
have a really strong connection to your like inner voice, if
you're able to hear that over maybe the perks and demands of
the art world kind of hook that is always maybe there once you
(45:59):
get a certain. So how do you stay tuned into
that? I mean I guess maybe having a
dumb phone would help. Yeah, it does help, but not
having you know, I don't look yeah, I'm not online very much,
but I yeah, it's and it's not easy all the time.
Like I definitely you don't haveinsecurity about.
I'm not like trying to say that it's some easy thing, but it but
(46:23):
I think I, I might almost feel like I would do it if I was
capable of. I just, I'm just not, you know,
if I, it would probably be better for everyone if I just
did something, you know, that I feel like I don't know, people
want it or something, but I just, I just just, I was like, I
just, it doesn't come out. Yeah, that's cool.
(46:44):
OK, I've tried it. Yeah.
Oh, go ahead. You did try doing.
It I've tried it and it the, thewhen I was younger, I think I've
tried those things and I just, Isee why, you know, you can't do
things that according to market or whatever, you know.
I see yeah, 'cause you just didn't like how they turned out.
They. Just they just they're not good.
Yeah, for me. OK, we got two more questions.
(47:09):
What painters inspire you? As well as, you know, any other
kind of art forms that might inspire you.
But painters? So, so many.
I'm so mad at myself because I wanted to write down the names
of a couple newer people that I've liked a lot.
But maybe we can you can post them or something, but I can't
remember them right now. I never remember their names.
(47:31):
But I mean, like, my old favorites are always Bonard and
Burchfield and I mean Matisse and, you know, Van Gogh and all
these people. But yeah, like I've been a lot
on Bernard and Birchfield for years now.
That makes. Sense, yeah, and and.
Are you into Monet or is he too?Yeah, totally.
(47:52):
I like all the, I like all the old stuff.
I mean, I like, yeah, like having paint like painters in
the family, like every calendar was the French impressionist
calendar all the time. Everything napkins, like
everything like. Oh.
My God, Cute little Monet napkins, Yeah.
Like, yeah, like mugs, all the different art painter, old
(48:16):
French, old old white men, French composition as mugs, you
know? But yeah, no, I'm a fan of, I
love Manet maybe more than Monetand I love the knobbies and like
ball Balsus and. That's a name.
I was trying to think of the other last night, actually.
Balthus. I was like trying to be name,
(48:36):
yeah. With the cats.
Yeah, yeah. And Dicks love Dicks.
Auto Dicks. Cassatt, sorry to come up with
these like on the spur. I know the younger though, like
the new painters and ceramicistsworking, they want to write it
down and give it to you so you could post it or something.
That'd be. Great.
(48:56):
Yeah, there's there's some people doing such good stuff
right now and it's so inspiring.I love Lynette.
Yeah. OK, I don't know if.
Oh my gosh, me too. Yeah.
I love those paintings are so good.
Yeah. She just had to show it the tape
a couple of years ago. Amazing for people who want to
look her up. Amazing, yeah.
(49:18):
OK, we got one more question. Maybe that'll be the The final
question is, do you love animalsor are you inspired by nature at
large? Or do you just enjoy painting
animals a lot? I love animals.
Are you a real lover of animals or is it just a show?
I really love animals. Yeah, I was going to ask you
about your your your pets. Like what kind of creature?
(49:41):
Right now we have 2 cats we got from the Desert Hot Springs
Animal Shelter and we've got Rickles who is our little white
post ball dog saying. Oh yeah, the famous dog.
Oh yeah. That's him, yes, and he is
shaved right now, so he doesn't look like what he looks like in
the painting, but he. He's that's a lot of hair to
(50:04):
sometimes. He gets a little warm with the
hair. He's.
Yeah, yeah, that's what we have right now.
But I grew up with a lot of cats, and my mom always had the
12 cats. My mom, I don't think she's
listening, but she would steal people's cats from the
neighborhood. So I can say that because she's
not here. But no, they would.
The cat would come to the house and then she'd feed it bacon.
(50:27):
She was like in her little witchy ways and she was like,
oh, there was a child being meanto that cat, so I've got no
teeth. Oh, wow.
And then you ended up with 12 and they were all like, yeah,
we, we see them. They're at your house.
Like they're running around youryard.
Yeah. It's not very.
I was like, well, it's for the best.
That child was putting clothes on that cat, OK.
(50:47):
Oh, OK, Mom did, she heard. This.
Did you ever have angry neighbors come over and.
No, not really, although we do have angry neighbors.
My Aunt Nora, who's she's 91, she lives with my parents and
they're all living together at the house and with my brother
and his wife and she steals plants from the neighborhood.
But that's like everyone does ita little bit, yeah, maybe like
(51:12):
trouble. She got a letter.
Someone sent a letter that she took a plant.
Oh, that was one angry neighbor.So full potted plants.
It was like she she took a plantthat was planted somewhere and
she moved it and then replanted it somewhere else in their yard
because she thought it wasn't planted in the right place.
Oh my gosh. So her heart was in the right
(51:33):
place. Totally.
Wow, OK, that's so funny. Those are some nosy witch ladies
there. Yeah, it's like a bit of a grey
garden situation at home. They're not listening, so I can
say. That Yeah, well, it's it's.
I say would love because I love.Exactly Yes.
Grey Gardens lanes but very special.
Oh, my gosh. Well, you should make some
(51:53):
paintings just about them. Yeah.
I mean, now knowing that, I do feel like the three characters,
like I'm just imagining them. Yeah, well, a lot of actually a
lot of the paintings I did like the hobo clown and the and some
of the the clowns were based offof myself, my my mom, my dad, my
(52:13):
brother, my aunt Nora and my andand Eric Yonker, my husband.
Yeah, yeah, they were based. So a lot of those I used my
human form with there and then painted on top of.
I love that. All right, well, thank you
everyone so much for being a part of this conversation.
(52:35):
And thank you so much to Allisonfor being my guest today on the
side. Woo, where?
Where can we find you since you're not on Instagram?
Really. Where can we find?
Well, I have a website. It's Allison Scholnick dot me.
That's my and I'll keep it updated.
Allison Scholnick dot me and andthen of course at the Pit and
(52:55):
the PPOW websites. Yeah, and dumb Phone.
The show at The Pit in Los Angeles will be open to the 21st
until the 21st of December. Yeah, I see it in person.
Yeah, it's so great. I mean the texture and
everything is amazing. If you want to follow along with
the Side Woo, I'll be doing moretalks.
I might be doing another talk this month maybe through my sub
(53:19):
stack, which is called art Date.So you can go to
artdate.substack.com to subscribe.
Otherwise, find the Side Woo on all the the platforms for
podcasts, you know, Apple Podcasts, Spotify and all the
others. But yeah, thank you so much
everyone. Have a good one.
Thank you. That's all for this week's
(53:46):
episode. Thank you so much for listening.
This was your host, TiVo with Sound Editing Help by Natasha
Lowey. If you love this episode, please
share it with a friend, write usa review, and give us five stars
for good karma points. To watch along, subscribe to our
YouTube channel and see all of our videos and live pop
recordings there. Thanks so much for listening.
(54:08):
See you next time on the side view.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.