Art & Karaoke with Raina Lee

We are back with Season 5 of The Side Woo podcast and our first guest is LA-based artist Raina Lee. Thibault and Raina talk about life in and out of LA after the fires in January, karaoke as an art form, ceramics and feng shui.

About Raina Lee

Raina Lee is a second-generation Taiwanese-American artist working in ceramic sculpture and installation. She is an author and zine publisher, having written in creative-nonfiction and technology for fifteen years. In the ceramics, she is known for her experimental glazes and textured surface vessels. In her current practice, she combines sculpture and ceramic glaze paintings, creating installations of significant moments in art history. Her work highlights the ways non-Western cultures and art practices have influenced the Western art canon. While acknowledging that cultural influence goes in all directions, Lee questions what is interpretation versus cultural appropriation, and how the boundaries between these reflect structures of power, class, and colonialism. She explores Asian diasporic identity, displacement, and the erosion of time through a material practice. She draws from classical Chinese, Greek, and Persian art history. She has worked in 3D-clay printing as an artist-in-residence at the Expressive Computation Lab at University of California, Santa Barbara and has also made functional ceramics. Other residencies include Watershed (Maine), High Desert Test Sites (Joshua Tree), Texere (Oaxaca), Ikea Residency (Los Angeles), and Salmon Creek Farm (Mendocino).

Her work is influenced video games, science fiction futurism, and a Southern California immigrant upbringing. She grew up between Taiwan and her parent’s pizzaria in Torrance, California. Her work has been featured in press worldwide, including The New York Times: T Magazine, Surface Magazine, and MilK Decoration. She is the author of Hit Me With Your Best Shot: The Ultimate Guide To Karaoke Domination (Chronicle Books) and publisher of cult zine about technology and gaming culture, 1-Up MegaZine. She has a B.A. in sociology from U.C. Davis and M.A. in Film and Media Studies from the New School.

Email: rainaleeshop at gmail.com
Instagram: @rainajlee

Watch this episode on our YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJ-tTvznWMQ

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
Hello and welcome to the side Woo.
This is your host Tebow, helpingyou navigate the wild and
mysterious path that is the creative life.
Join me as I ask our guests about the tools they use to help
them survive in the creative wilderness.
Also do. Yeah.

(00:23):
So just for the listeners, welcome to the side.
Woo. It's been a while.
No judgement from any of you, I'm sure.
But also, I'm going to not judgemyself.
We are on Hersh's critics. Yeah.
I have Rayna Lee here and she isin her tree house as she likes

(00:43):
to call it. Hello hi I'm in the little cabin
I know some of you are regularlylistening with no visual but
here is the outdoor hillside. But currently I'm in a woodshack
so. Yeah, and it's in.

(01:03):
Sorry to, it's in. Where is it again?
Mountain View or something? I I'm like forgetting LA.
Neighborhoods. Yeah, yeah, no, it's in Mount
Washington. It's in the east side of LA, so
there was like a hilly neighborhood that has lots of
weird hippie stuff from like the80s or something.
So this is definitely what we were from, that sort of thing.
But yeah, this, this cabin was here.

(01:25):
You can like. Climb up a path in your backyard
and that's where the tree house is located.
Yes, there's a small staircase that's kind of sketchy that you
can go up to get to my tree house.
So yeah. Cool.
It all just adds to the rustic nature of your the visit and
like all your pottery here. Can you do a pan to the left or

(01:48):
your right with the the pottery wall?
Yeah, so I go to use this to everybody.
Like take it in. Yeah, I bought this house a
little while ago. Maybe nine years.
Ago, Yeah. And this cabin was basically
already here, existing in the backyard.

(02:10):
So I did not build it, but I just made a lot of ceramics and
it started filling up the house and we just started putting it
in this in this room. So that's how and it's kind of
turned into like a de facto showroom.
Like it just ends up I just store stuff in here.
But it's a very beautiful rusticstorage space.

(02:31):
Yeah, well, sorry, I keep coughing.
I'm going to delete that. It was funny because when I
visited, you were like, wheneverI bring people here, it like
boosts sales. And I even felt that I, I was
like, oh, I, you know, I'm probably moving.
I'm not even going to live here anymore, but I really want to

(02:52):
buy something. Being in here, you know, it
like, it makes you want to like,take a piece of it home because
it's so cozy and just like, something about the energy there
is like, Oh yeah, I want a pieceof this in my life.
Yeah, it's, I think I just, I, I, I stored the work up here and
I would have holiday sales mostly the friends would want to

(03:14):
buy gifts for, you know, the girlfriends or moms or that sort
of thing. And so it became like a little
retail store where I'd have studio sales, but then people
really just like coming to the experience of going up the
hillside and walking over kind of a sketchy narrow bridge and
reaching this little room what'sfull of crazy pottery.

(03:34):
So yeah, it's, I think it's added to the sales charm of the
experience. So.
So a friend of mine, he was saying that because you have to
walk up these sort of scary stairs and cross a scary bridge,
once you've achieved that, you feel like you need to do
something like buy stuff. So that's part of the
experience. I scare people into buying

(03:58):
stuff. So yeah.
I was going to say that's like Stockholm syndrome or something
where you're like, oh, you've saved me from the danger that
you put me in. So yeah.
Yeah, that's a, that's a sales strategy if any artist is
wondering, you can, you can. Build an urgent need Urgent.

(04:22):
Yeah, but I, I think it's also just experiential marketing.
Like I worked at ad agencies foryears.
And if you have some kind of physical real experience, people
walk away with that sense of, you know, connected to the work
or your brand or whatever you want to call it.
And that is a, that is a real experience in life versus just

(04:42):
an object. So I, I think that adds to the
experiential that's we say in the ad industry.
Wow, take note. I'm that's interesting.
I like that idea. I mean, I also hate it in
practice, like the ice cream store and, you know, the those

(05:03):
different like Instagram pop up things, but it's different when
it's like art with a capital a, you know, versus, I don't know,
something just for online consumption in some ways, but
yeah. That's cool.
I think it's also why people whoyou know, when you have a show,
you're always trying to figure out programming.
Like say you had a bunch of paintings go out, but you're

(05:24):
also thinking, Oh, wouldn't it be great if I had my friend
who's a musician come in and do like a like a jazz set?
Or wouldn't it be great if I dida reading here or, I don't know,
are, I mean, the most basic 1 islike artist walkthrough, like,
Oh, I'll walk you through my show, you know, and that's,
that's like the most simple one.But they get really elaborate,
like sound baths. And I mean, it's, it's a whole

(05:45):
thing of like having a show opening it, but then drawing
people back into the gallery constantly with programming.
And I feel the same about peoplewho have museum shows.
I was talking to a friend who had show open and she was like,
yeah, the show's up. I'm really excited.
But you know, I got to, I got tofigure out programming and I'm
like, but that's a museum show. And she's like, yeah, but I
still need to get people into the museum.

(06:07):
So that's that's so. That's all museums.
Yeah, Interesting. I mean, it's like you kind of
intuitively know that that's what it's about.
I mean, I think a lot of artiststhink about like, how do I
contextualize my work? And the galleries are probably
thinking about that too, but they're also like, how do we get

(06:29):
the butts in the seats? How do we get people in and
interested in our programming? And it's so it's like, I don't
know, it's funny how things can change depending on how you
frame it, but it's still the same.
You know, it's which honestly feels like the smoke and mirrors
of a lot of the art world where it's like, yeah, you know, you

(06:50):
could say it's for intellectual development, which some of it
is. But then also underlying it is
that people need to drive revenue, which is what keeps it
the doors open in a lot of cases, I mean.
Yeah, they're driving. So that's.
A driving, driving Instagram stories for people to repost and
keep posting. I mean that's like that's its

(07:12):
own marketing on its own and it's free because it comes from
people. So I think all of that
perpetuates, you know, the social, the events, the in
person stuff. I mean people have pop ups
because a lot of regular stores don't even exist anymore.
So anyway, I, I feel like I havefriends who make clothing lines
and they can't even really sell at stores because those stores
are closing down. So then they have to continually

(07:35):
create pop ups or rent temporaryspaces because no one can afford
real rent. So you can rent a space for like
a few months. And so that's just part of
having work in the world, whether it's clothing, whether
it's art, whether it's like scenes or whatever.
I mean, it's just got to be in the world and connect with
people in real life. I think that's a big part of it.
Yeah, which is inherently good, right?

(07:58):
Like, that's a good thing that we are still required to, like,
interact with people to be successful because if we didn't,
everyone would be completely offline.
And what a miserable existence. But yeah, that's interesting.
I wonder if that's a phenomenon.I mean, I'm sure rents are bad
everywhere, but that's definitely something I've

(08:19):
witnessed like in LA, you know, right now and other major cities
that are known for being these centers of culture.
It's like forcing these types ofmarketing strategies that like
people would call gross potentially.
You know, like there's there's this, there's this specific set

(08:41):
of strategies that work when youare like under resourced and
your overhead is too high for what you do.
And so it kind of drives you into this corner of like, either
I engage in these like tried andtrue marketing techniques or I
go out of business. It's not like you can.

(09:04):
It makes it so unsustainable to be an artist in the way that we
think of as like intellectually pure or, you know, it's like,
you really do have to have a business mind to be able to keep
things going. And maybe you always have, but
it feels like that has been elevated because of all the
digital content that's being required now to be part of that.

(09:28):
Like if you don't have an onlinepresence at all, which I'm like
off of Instagram. So I'm trying to figure out
like, how is this all going to work?
You know, I have my sub stack, which does kind of keep people
aware of my my existence. I think.
I assume everyone's completely forgotten about me.
Like, I mean, assume I don't exist at all in people's minds.

(09:51):
And I guess that's a bummer, butI don't really know how else to
do it. Like, I don't know.
Yeah, it's something I'm talkingabout a lot with the artist I
work for here in Santa Fe. Like it's me, her and another, a
friend of hers. And they both went to Cal Arts
and lived in LA and then now live out here.
And it's like they kind of miss the Instagram thing, like in

(10:15):
terms of their like college, youknow, experience and then like
right out of school, like how that impacts you, But I don't
know. Yeah.
It's really changed the way being an artist like is in a
way, which is that's an old conversation, but it's.
It's crazy. I, I don't know what it was like
to be an artist in the 90s or the 80s or something.

(10:37):
But I mean, I assume it was alsoa lot of like work too.
You probably tried to go to galleries and like, talk to
people. Yeah, You know, or you maybe
could just like, approach a gallerist back then.
I've definitely heard. Stories.
Exactly. That's what they said.
Like it was normal to send slides in the mail and then they
would send you a rejection letter or or invite you in or

(11:00):
for a studio visit. It's like you would send your
reel of slides or your little like acetone little folder
thing, which is kind of bananas,Yeah.
Yeah, so I know, I think like 50%.
I mean, I, I know it's like we all spend so much time making
work, but it's, it's hard to carve out time to get the work

(11:24):
into the world. But I truly believe you have to
spend 50% of the time making thework and it's fucked up, but you
have to spend 50% of the time getting the work in the world.
Slash selling it like that is truly the job.
If you're not selling it 50% of the time, I don't know how it
gets into the world. So it's like I that's truly what
I found. Yeah.

(11:45):
I thought maybe it was like, oh,20% getting it into the world,
but no, now I'm like, no man, that's like 50% of the game,
maybe 60. I don't even right.
And. I think that's especially true
if you live in expensive city and you're overhead is LA
prices. I think it's true if you don't
have a gallery that can devote enough time to like making you

(12:07):
an art star, getting you a regular market.
And so it's like to get to the point where you have a gallery
that can really advocate enough for you that you make like an
income to cover your overhead. I yeah, IA 100% think that what
you're saying is true. And that's why it's so hard to

(12:27):
get past that like emerging tierbecause your, your demand of
like what you're supposed to make once you get past that
early stage of like gallery representation is like, well,
you better be making the income to be able to provide this
lifestyle so that you can produce at the level that these
other galleries are demanding. But then I guess what's tricky

(12:50):
about it is like they don't havethey don't have someone holding
their feet to the fire. Like, OK, I like did my part
Like you better make those fucking sales.
You know, like, like we don't have that relationship for the
most part with galleries. And it's not like I would ever

(13:11):
enter into a relationship where at this stage of my life where I
would treat it that way. But like, I don't think that
galleries maybe have the accountability.
It's like, oh, if a work doesn'tsell, it's the artist, which yes
and no, you know, it's like, well, you took a chance on the
artist. So like, what was it that you

(13:33):
found was important? Do you know what I mean?
Like that Like we're working so hard, we're putting in the
investment upfront. So where's the accountability
for these like mid tier galleries that are like
theoretically investing in US towarrant the 50%?
You know, I feel like we got really business heavy on my Woo

(13:54):
Woo podcast, but it's, yeah, it's clearly like in there right
now, right? Yeah, no, we can.
No, it's definitely that's, that's just like being an
artist, as as lame as that is. But that's, yeah, we can.
We can, we can pivot the conversation to something.
Well, yeah, I mean, I, I feel like it'll come back in, you
know, because it's like this is setting the stage.

(14:15):
Like this is the reality of whatit is to be an artist right now,
especially in an expensive city.Like I know in Albuquerque spend
like $800 a month less because Ihave a home studio and
apartments here are just insanely cheaper.
That's just baseline overhead. And then on top of that, there's

(14:38):
like gas is like 50% less and like literally you guys moved to
New Mexico. Gas is under $3 a gallon.
It's. Like from 1995.
Like what I've never like. I know like it's like high
school in Minnesota, like that'show much gas was.

(14:59):
But you know, like not everything's cheaper.
Like lattes are still like, you know, 6 bucks or whatever, but
so like yes, like here is so much cheaper to be an artist.
You can buy land and build studios and you can do all the
things that you were promised you could do in LA maybe 20
years ago or something. You know, I just spent, I just

(15:20):
spent two weeks in Joshua Tree. I was at that high desert test
sites, the Andrews the Tell Universe and I lived in this
amazing trailer. How was it?
It was, it was really amazing. My skin was really dry there,
but it was really beautiful and I highly recommend that place
and even that residency to people who just want to spend a
pretty good isolated chunk. But near all the amenities.

(15:44):
Like it's not you're not like inthe middle of nowhere on her
property. She's actually.
The middle of Joshua Tree. Yeah, you have like, amazing.
Like did you go to that doughnutslash pho shop?
Oh yeah, yeah. The doughnut, the brisket.
They have good brisket. There.
I love that place. That's a great favorite and it's
like right there and then you'vegot all your little like
gentrified like Coachella style shopping.

(16:08):
Yeah, so I was just there for two weeks, but I also hardcore
visited like 6 artists. Like people I know, I kind of
know, or I just see in town every once in a while.
But they don't actually live in LA because they live out in the
desert. And so because I normally never
have time to go visit people when I'm out there for like some
random workshop or whatever, I go camping or something.

(16:29):
I, I visited over six artists and I visited people who do wood
firing out in the middle of nowhere.
I visited a friend who does these amazing ceramic pieces
where she melts glass into the middle of this ceramic and a
double firing. I visited another ceramics
friend who has her own Quonset. It's like one of those like big
tent warehouse thing. She's like 1000 square feet in

(16:51):
the middle of nowhere where she can just do whatever.
And everyone just seemed to expand so much because land was
cheap out there. And yeah, it was like a
different mindset of like, oh, you can work like this and make
weird crazy shit because it's cheap.
But yeah, so that was fun. So I assume New Mexico is like
that, but probably cheaper than Joshua Tree because.

(17:12):
Yeah. I think it just the gas, like I
don't know about land, like it may be more expensive in Joshua
Tree now than it used to be, butdefinitely like gas and just
infrastructure costs are cheaperhere.
But I mean, to get to the point without getting into like our
spreadsheets details like yeah, it is that is a problem.

(17:36):
And so I do think the overhead concerns like pushes artists to
behave in a certain way where like you said, it's not 8090%
thinking about the work, developing the work.
It's like you have to do like 50% and then 50% or more.

(17:58):
You know, like a lot of people spend less time making their art
and then more time covering their bills and like coming up
with strategies or networking orwhatever.
Not to mention you have like other things in life.
Hopefully so, but I did want to just talk about like, you know,

(18:18):
maybe what sign you are, just togive people context who are into
astrology. We usually start with that.
I I actually just bought a Virgosweatshirt and I meant to wear
it this morning and I don't knowwhy I put on this other green
top instead, but it's a green Virgo sweatshirt.
It says Virgo on it and if anyone is curious, that's what I

(18:42):
am. I should have put on the
sweatshirt. That's.
Cool, I'm going to send. You a picture of the sweatshirt?
Yeah. Yeah, that would be awesome.
And then I'll put it in the sub stack or something.
Yeah. OK, so Virgo, I feel like Virgo,
you're very like organized. It's like Beyoncé's a Virgo.

(19:03):
I don't know if you feel like any kinship with her.
Of course I of course I do. Totally.
All Virgos are like, Oh yeah, we're all connected.
We all get it. We're, we're getting the stuff
done that we need to do and we commend other Virgos on there
getting doneness, you know? It's like a newsletter someone

(19:24):
set up like an alumni style newsletter of like all Virgos.
It's like, oh, today I got thesethings done.
And what about you guys? Yeah, I try to not.
On their favorite, Yeah. Yeah, that would be great.
If I had a group like that. Then I could openly gloat about
what I got done that day and they would understand.

(19:46):
So I usually totally get under wraps.
Yeah, you got it. Well, that's the other piece of
Virgo is like you have to be very, I don't know, like there's
like a split thing with the Virgos because also the most
serial killers are Virgos. No, I thought they were
Scorpios. It's cult leaders are Scorpios.

(20:09):
Oh, I had. Yeah, I had heard Virgo, but OK,
OK, I'm gonna. Oh, OK, well.
Maybe, Yeah, Hey, I could see that that could work, yeah.
And then I could see both honestly.
I could see both. There's something about like the
splitness of like the privacy piece and then your public

(20:29):
persona, which I think Virgo andScorpio kind of share that like
witchy private energy and then like having to face the world
maybe with a different energy than they feel natural with.
I don't know, But OK, Well, cool.
Well, I feel like since we've kind of jumped into like nuts

(20:53):
and bolts of like artist life, Ifeel like, how did you get into
art? Because you did a lot of other
things first. It seemed like like how did you
kind of like? I, I got into art accidentally I
think when I was teenager and when I was in college.
I made a lot of scenes, like a lot of print scenes, like I

(21:13):
would make like famous scenes and themes about bands and that
kind of thing. And when I got out of school, I
worked in technology and gaming and I did a Zine about feminist
critique on gaming culture and like PlayStation, Nintendo
games, that kind of thing. But I would also interview lots
of fans of gaming people like people who collected obscure

(21:35):
technology and people who obsessively like would research
obscure gaming platforms that didn't exist anymore.
I was really interested in people who were interested in
the obsolete. And so that is what I, I did for
like a number of years is I had the scene, it was called one up.
It was very popular in that gaming Zine community.
They were all silk screened. And through that I got a book

(21:59):
agent and I was able to publish a book on how to karaoke.
So I have a book called hit me with their best shot, the
ultimate guide to Karaoke Domination.
It's published by Chronicle and it's sold it every Urban
Outfitters and every gift shop you can imagine back in like
2010 or whatever. So yeah, most of my life I've
been a writer, such Zine publisher sort of person.

(22:22):
And I happen to live next door to a ceramic studio in Brooklyn.
And I started going and then I got really obsessive.
So I'm generally like an obsessive person.
So I was really into zines and self-publishing for a long time.
So I was obsessed with that. And then now I guess I do
ceramics. So I got up.
So I'm just, I just like pick something and go with it.

(22:44):
So that that's a little bit of how I got him.
I'm glad you brought up your karaoke book right away because
I am obsessed with karaoke. I have I There was a point when
I was researching karaoke books because I was thinking about it
a lot with my art and stuff and I was like trying to see what

(23:05):
writing had been done. I didn't find your book for some
reason, which is. Very little writing.
Well, I mean, and maybe it was like my search was more like
intellectuals and yours is like a guide almost, right.
But still, I I haven't read it yet.
And I've been, I wanted to read it before we talked, but I have

(23:26):
my reasons for loving karaoke. But I want to hear like your
personal connection to it. I mean, I'm coming from like a
Western late to the party karaoke fan.
So I feel like, you know, and wewelcome, we welcome.
That. OK, welcome that, I know.
I'm like a Western American lakekaraoke fan.

(23:47):
So my parents are from Taiwan and everyone in Asia since the
early 80s has really been into karaoke, especially karaoke
coming from Japan, Taiwan, Korea, all those places.
And growing up, my parents had alaser disc player, which is the
format that a lot of karaoke songs came on in like 1989 or
whatever. So I also had a dentist in at

(24:10):
Monterey Park, which is like a Taiwanese suburb in LA.
And every time I would come to the dentist and I'd have to
wait, the receptionist would getout the laser discs because I
knew I there was like a karaoke machine in the waiting room of
the dentist. I would be singing.
Like before I. Get to my dentist office, Yeah.
It was it was just and what people would use it.

(24:33):
I mean, just me, I think I, I don't think other people used
it. They just knew when I was coming
in it would be time to get out the laser disc.
But it was just there in the middle of in the waiting room.
So anyone could have asked for it.
But so yeah, that's just part ofthe culture of Chinese and
Taiwanese people. So I didn't really think that
much of it. But I think when it came to like

(24:54):
pitch a book, I was trying to pitch a book that was, that was
basically like the gaming version of Trekkies.
You know that documentary about the Star Trek fans I was
interested in like gaming fans. OK, it's amazing.
It's you should check it out. Trekkies.
It's probably from like the mid 2000s.
But I was trying to pitch a similar idea, but a book about
gaming culture, like people likeBilly Mitchell who scored the

(25:17):
first perfect Pac-Man score. Like I, I knew all these people.
I interviewed them for magazine and for like gaming magazines.
So it was hard to sell a book atthe time about gaming fan
culture. Maybe today it would have
happened. And so I just.
Pitched a book? Got a book?
Totally. You could make that book for
sure now, but OK, maybe today. Yeah, I was trying to pitch

(25:39):
multiple books on like gaming, arcade culture.
And then my agent was like, oh, do you have any other topics you
could write a book about? And I was like, Oh yeah, I like
karaoke. And I'm really, I could I could
do a book. So that's how it came about.
And I kind of made the book as like the book you can give your
white Co workers who want to give who I want to get really
good at karaoke that that is like the pitch is like this is

(26:01):
this is for everybody else who just wants to learn who just got
into it. Because the book came out in
like late 2000s, like 2010. And I feel like that was sort of
an era where it was becoming popular with the non Asians.
So that was. That's yeah, that checks out
actually, because I first did karaoke, well, I did it in

(26:23):
Madison in like 2003 and I had some like cool artsy friends who
would go to like a local karaokeplace, but they're, they may
have had some connection to likeJapan or something.
But then when I really saw the power of karaoke was at, I used
to work for an Asian M and a firm which is like merger,

(26:44):
mergers and acquisitions. And they were based in New York
where I was, and then had offices in Asia like couple
different countries. And so whenever we would meet as
a company, we would do like an off site retreat in Asia.
And most of the people there were Asian.
So it was like of course, one ofthe things we did on our off

(27:05):
site was go to a karaoke room and when we went like, you know,
you don't have a lot in common with people that you, we didn't
really even have like chat at the time cuz it was like 2007,
2008. Like it, you know, we didn't
have slack in the way that we donow.
So people would talk. But like, I didn't know that

(27:26):
many people. There was a lot of different
like lifestyles coming together,different hierarchy, you know,
is like the MD's and the admin. We're all in the same room, like
hanging out together. And Despite that, like I
remember at the end of the night, we did like Hey Jude,
which, you know, obviously everybody, it's classic.

(27:46):
And it brought everyone togetherin this way that was like so
magical. It just like broke down
hierarchies. It broke down any kind of
cultural difference. And I thought, well, like, wow.
I mean, granted, partly it's TheBeatles song, which they do that
anyway, but it felt like something about the act of like
embarrassing yourself and as a karaoke singer for a lot of us,

(28:10):
like who weren't good, it like made this like vulnerable space
for people to connect on a different level.
So that was like the first moment where I was like, oh,
this is actually really powerful.
And I didn't grow up with this really, even though my dad was a
musician. Like it like, so it kind of like

(28:31):
sparked something in my brain like that's powerful.
And then at a residency, we did a bunch of karaoke, and it did
kind of the same thing. Like it brought everyone
together. And I just thought, like, this
is really important. Like, we don't have this,
especially in Western culture. Like, they used to the gather
around the piano maybe and sing or something.

(28:52):
But yeah, I don't know if you had that experience at all.
Like it's this kind of communal bonding thing or is it more
about being good or I don't? Know, I definitely think it's
communal bonding and everyone liking music and just being
together. I think that's a huge part of
it. It's like people loving that one
song that you picked and everyone loves it and that's a
big, you know, in the book I I have I mean they're all from

(29:15):
like the lists are from 2009, but I have like what to sing
when you're at a birthday party,what to sing at your friend's
bachelor party. It's like, what are the songs
that bring people together in your opinion, you know?
And so I think it's kind of likebeing a DJ where you have to
read the room and figure out what people like to hear versus
like what you like to sing or what's a crowd pleaser.

(29:36):
So it's like a combination of all of those things.
But at the end of the day, you just sing what you like to sing.
So it it doesn't. Really matter, it's true, but I
do agree that there's like context where if you pick the
wrong song it really kills the vibe.
Yeah, yeah. Like a really long song that's
slow. Just don't.
Don't. Do a long song or like a really
heavy song like that people Can't Sing along to or

(29:58):
something. Like the doors?
Yeah. Oh, the doors.
Well, it's funny you said that because I did White Rabbit at
the Mint one time and I was withthis friend from work and we had
just right before us was this guy singing Summer of 69, like
super drunkenly, like, and he had like, everyone like around

(30:19):
him just like, like they were all having a great time.
And then we came up and sang White Rabbit and it was like
such a buzzkill. It was like, well, watch the
entire room die. I was like, yeah, OK.
That that song is hilarious though.
The Jefferson Airplane. I mean, it's just such a weird
and crazy. I think if you had gotten up I

(30:40):
would have been like, oh this ishilarious and amazing.
Like some would have been like. Yeah, I'm like, yeah.
I know, yeah. It was actually kind of powerful
to watch a room die that, you know, that hard.
You're like, oh, wow, I'm havinga huge effect on this room right
now. Maybe not a good one, but.

(31:03):
You're taking the. Power.
So what? What's exactly?
I'm like, taking power back, Like let's kill this summer 69
bullshit. Yeah, yeah.
Let's go Bryan Adams. What's your what are your go TOS
for? Like Like if every song is OK,
you know some rooms you can do pretty much anything like So

(31:23):
what? What's your?
I, well, I, I definitely go in and read the room.
I see who's in there and what age they are.
So that is a huge part of it. I see where they are from.
I, I figure out what the, I mean, I definitely know what to
sing wrong with white people versus Asians.
I mean, there's a lot, there's just, there's a lot of ways to
go about it. I personally just like singing

(31:45):
like Wuthering Heights or something and I can do the Kate
Bush dancing, you know, I mean, I could do it in here.
But anyways, so I like that is my personal favorite is to do
that kind of weird shit, you know.
But I like all the stuff people like, like the Fleetwood Mac and
the I I can do like put a ring on it Beyoncé, like I can do

(32:06):
some Nicki Minaj or I could do Ilike, you know, like classic
country, you know, like Loretta Lynn and Patsy Cline and Johnny
Cash. I like Black Sabbath, like
that's great too. Oh, that's cool.
I could, yeah. I would love to see that.
Yeah, I, I also, I love doing Magic Man by Heart.

(32:27):
That's one of my favorites is The Heart.
Any of the heart songs are incredible.
Susie and the Banshees. I do Hong Kong Guarded.
It's so racist, but I love singing it.
Yeah. Because you get to, like, Wing.
Yeah. I guess that's the other thing
that I love about it is there's all these, like, moments of,
like, winking or shifting of identity like you.

(32:51):
Because a lot of, like, karaoke is impersonation rather than
trying to find this, like, novelway of covering a song
necessarily. You know, like, some people do
that. But I do feel like there's this
kind of nod, always see the original singer and like, are
you going to take on their persona or are you going to,

(33:11):
like, reference it in some way? Or is there?
And I think that's one of the things that like in hindsight,
like this, like fluidity of identity has been like an
interesting kind of playing ground for me to like, think
about like gender identity and stuff now.
Like that always appealed to me that you could sing a Johnny
Cash song and like take on his energy.

(33:35):
And then, you know, maybe later you could sing like, Fleetwood
Mac and be like Stevie Nicks, you know, and how it just is
like this, like, fluid thing. And it's totally acceptable to,
like, use different pronouns andtalk about, you know, kind of
different life experiences through these lyrics.
And I don't know. Yeah.
So I love the idea that you would sing like a racist.

(33:58):
Yeah, I can sing like a racist just like anybody.
So I'm I'm willing. To totally.
But yeah, I do love that aspect of like identity fluidity, like
you can just be any. I mean, I think as a kid I
wanted to act and dance and singand my parents were like, no.
So that's wow. I was like, oh, I guess I'll
just do karaoke. They're not going to like, let
me go to like acting school. I guess I'll just do this.

(34:21):
So it's fine. Like if I can't go to musical
theatre school and sing Les Miserables all the time, I'll
I'll sing karaoke. Is that what you wanted to do?
Yeah, yeah, as a child, but thatwas like not that was not going
to happen with Asian. Well, that's pretty heavy as a
child to wanna sing like I dreamed a dream.
Yeah, no, I, I mean, obviously if I had really wanted it, I

(34:44):
would have tried to go for it, but I think I was like gently
wanting it. And my parents were like, no
way, no singing lessons for you so.
Oh. Wow.
Now I make ceramics, so it's a different performance.
I'm an artist and I can perform in a different way.
Totally. OK, cool.
Well, maybe we could talk about your ceramics.

(35:06):
You are super prolific and like I've had a couple shows recently
you had you had just sent it to me, but I'm let me pull up my
document. So you were just in future fair,
right. Or is that?
Yeah. That is coming up next week, so
I will be. Amazing.
Not been to this fair but it's called Future Fair and it's

(35:27):
another new art fair so. I'll be there.
I'll be there and also. And it's like for emerging
galleries and artists like couldhave a booth by themselves if
they wanted to. Yeah, it's definitely.
Yeah, it's definitely for emerging galleries and smaller
galleries. And I mean, I'd heard of some of

(35:50):
the galleries on the roster, buta lot of them I hadn't.
And yeah, I've been working withthis gallery, Lysan Keen in
Boston, and I was in a group show last year and I had made a
body of work in November that was really small and portable.
So then she contacted me and said, would you would you be
interested in the art fair? Because these works are small.

(36:13):
So yeah, I was like, OK, that's.That's how the.
That's how the. Car world works.
Yeah. It's like, oh, this is really
easy to carry. Let's let's bring this, Yeah.
Yeah, I think that is underestimated.
I mean, or it's like that feels like the kind of advice like a

(36:36):
well meaning parent would give you when you're going to art
school and they're like make something small, you know, or
making this thing that you can carry with you or whatever and
you don't need to sort, but. And then you're like, I want to
make what I want to make. But then as you get into it
farther along and I don't know, it's like, Oh yeah, that like

(36:59):
practicality of making works on paper or making something small
that you can easily sell it maybe a lower price point or I
don't know, it's all it's interesting like.
Yeah, and I, it goes back, it goes back to what you were
saying about, you know, being affordable in a big city like LA

(37:21):
versus being somewhere where youhave a lot of space where you
could make giant sculpture. I mean, a lot of it is like, I
make really large vessels and really large things.
And at some point I couldn't really store everything or sort
of have things at different stores, but it's like they're in
those stores because it's basically free storage for me.
So I'm like, great, take my stuff on consigned.

(37:42):
It's like my and and to make smaller works was really
liberating for me because it it took less time to dry the work.
With ceramics, there's a whole drying process and firing.
So if you make a really large work, it can take weeks to dry.
But I had made small works because I needed to turn out a
show really quickly and I knew they would dry quicker.

(38:05):
But it was also the constraint of the studio.
I work in my garage and even though my garage is sizable and
probably bigger than most people's, like rented studios
downtown, it's still very small because our camping gear and our
real life gear is in the garage.It's like our real stuff, like
our Costco toilet paper is also in the garage next to my clay,
you know, So, yeah. So it's.

(38:27):
In that toilet paper takes a lotof room.
Yeah, it's huge. It's really big.
I mean, I'm very privileged to have a garage to store Costco
stuff. So I mean, not everyone can,
but, but yeah. So I think it's notable the
constraint. Use it.
Yeah, yeah, it's good. I mean, I'm very lucky to be

(38:48):
able to use somewhere that's already in my house.
But again, it's like the constraint of storage and paying
$3000 for like a larger ceramic studio.
With ceramics, you need equipment and you need a certain
kind of voltage and and like ventilation.
And that is like so expensive inthe world that, you know, if I

(39:08):
could shift my practice, at least temporarily to make these
really small, that basically they're tiny postcards that are
real postcard size that are like, you know, they're based on
photographs that I had taken while I was traveling in Paris
or Spain. And then I done tiny little
paintings with glaze on each postcard.
So they're like microscopic paintings, but they also are the

(39:29):
size of a postcard. So it's like the concept is
like, oh, these are my travel memories.
And this is like my postcard youwould buy at a gift shop, except
it's just like my funny postcardof like a baguette I saw on the
street, you know, So that's that's kind of what the work
was. But then the fact that I can
store something like this reallyeasily and show it in a gallery

(39:51):
is like, oh, it's all those constraints working and I had to
make it work because I can't afford a $3000 a month studio.
Like it's like that's, it's partof being the artist and making
it work, you know? Totally.
And I think there's something about work like that, that it's

(40:12):
made for an audience, you know, like, it's trying to think about
how to, like, say what I want tosay without sounding like I'm
disparaging at all. But it's accessible.
And I think people who aren't artists or haven't gotten that
kind of training can let go in and easily understand it.

(40:34):
But I think it also like inspires people because of its
perceived accessibility, like tomake art themselves, you know
what I mean? Or like, there's like a inherent
kind of invitation to be creative.
Also, not to say that they couldor would, you know, I think it's
a lot harder to do than it looksmaybe like it would be because

(40:54):
it is small. And you know, you're like
talking about this concept as like kind of a simple concept,
but in the end, making any kind of flat piece of ceramic is
actually really hard. And so is just working with clay
and firing on your own. But I think theoret like when
people walk in and see your work, there's like an ease to it

(41:15):
because it's like coming from this kind of like joyful place
and you're kind of playful with the things that you make that it
like invites people in. And so I would say that's like
one of your successes is like you're really inviting the
viewer and the visitor in and you're making something that is

(41:35):
kind of accessible. And I don't know, I think that
people really respond to that. And maybe that is as important
as, you know, these other more monumental works that require
like a crazy studio and whatever, like Ruby Niri or
something. Like she has a big studio and

(41:57):
like probably massive kilns and whatever.
But like the way that work hits is different, but no less
important than work that's made in a garage that is made to be a
certain size to make your life functional.
You know, so I feel like they both have their importance in
kind of creating this joy aroundart and just that you can make

(42:20):
art out of anything. Like you did a kind of self-made
residency in Paris. Maybe you can talk about that.
But and so and then from there you made this show called Stroll
Garden that was at what was the gallery that it was again.
The gallery is called Stroll Garden.
I know it's very confusing, but oh, sorry, yeah, it's.
OK. And then it was Cart Postal was

(42:41):
the title of the. Show yeah, but yeah, I think I I
think I I've made work that talks about the chemistry of
rocks and geology and how all mymaterials come from different
rocks and all the colors come from rocks and I used to do
camping and hiking a lot and so I did I did a lot of work around
that. But when I made these small

(43:03):
postcards that were figurative and I hadn't worked figuratively
like that, it was a funny thing because it was very accessible.
It wasn't like you have to understand, like what the rocks
are about and changing geological structures and, you
know, that kind of more conceptual, like rock trans
mortification, whatever that word is, like changing states.
You know, that's definitely whatmy work was about before.

(43:25):
But making these sort of postcards, I'm still using all
the chemistry that I made all the glazes with because I
specifically made glazes for those little paintings.
But it was, yeah, I guess I didn't know, like, oh, I can
make work for people. Just understand that was also a
really interesting thing. It was like you didn't have to

(43:45):
explain that this was a tiny postcard of the Eiffel Tower.
I was like, well, you know what it is.
So I didn't know that it would be so much clearer to people to
have work like that. And I'm glad to have made work
that accessible because I feel like I've done a lot of things
that aren't super accessible, like feminist gaming culture.

(44:06):
I mean, yeah, it's accessible tolike five guys, but I don't.
It's like that's I'm just used to doing things that people
don't really get or they don't understand why I'm doing it,
except for the 10 people who getit.
And so did do to work in this way.
I was like, oh, everybody gets it.
That's crazy. So I'm just it's still an
experiment for me. And the whole thing that came
about because this this artist that I had met on Instagram that

(44:30):
I know who's in Paris, I actually met up with her in
Paris a few years ago, Katha vanSalard.
She was letting friends, different friends around the
world know that she had an available apartment for a month
at a time if you wanted to come stay as sort of like a proto
residency because I think her dream is to have a residency in
the French countryside. And so I was like, yeah, I love

(44:53):
Paris. I'll go.
So that's how it came about. So I was able to spend this
amazing month there taking pictures and going to all the
museums I never normally have time to go to and going to like
Giverny and all that stuff. So when I got back home, I had
to, I had to pop out a show. And so that was how this
happened. It was like, oh, I looked
through my travel photos, but wejust had seen so much painting,

(45:15):
like so much impressionism and so much of the, you know, bronze
sculpture. And we were just around it and
it was really exciting to look at.
But I was like, oh, wouldn't it be funny if I made my own genre?
You know, like, wouldn't it be funny if I made my own Monet?
And then my partner was like, oh, yeah, you should just make a
Monet. Like, that's hilarious.
And so it turned into these things where I was recreating

(45:38):
famous artworks and this ceramicglaze style because all the
works are painting or bronze. None of it's like chunky
ceramics and yeah, it's just it.It's either like my love letter
to this work or kind of like just sort of a funny way to
recreate it. You know, it's like my lens on

(45:58):
my mark making on this kind of work, you know, my version of
that well, so. And actually, now that I'm
hearing you talk about it, it iskind of like karaoke where
you're doing these like covers, you know, you're kind of taking
something that exists and like repositioning it in your from
your lens. So I love that because I
actually, that was part of my first show out of grad school.

(46:22):
I did a karaoke event as part ofthe programming for the show
because all the work was like, it was of these kind of like
fake antique stores where the store was selling remakes of old
antiques, but they were kind of saying that they were real.
And then I was like painting that.
And I felt like at the time, allart in all painting especially

(46:46):
was just like reiterating these tropes that you can't really
make anything new, so you're just doing your spin on it.
And so for me, karaoke always kind of like occupied that space
of like you're just reiterating like what's come before and
putting like a slightly new spinon it.
And so now that I hear you talk about that show, which I don't

(47:09):
know why it didn't occur to me before, but yeah, it's totally
like your karaoke performance. Yeah, that's a no.
That's a great connection. I never thought about it before.
And that's so interesting about your your show in school.
It's like that is like a karaokesort of performance.
You're like you're sort of nodding to the previous work,

(47:29):
but taking your own like cheeky version of it and taking it to
the side of place. It becomes kind of an in between
space where you're you're it's acommentary, but it's a
reiteration. But it's totally a different
thing. Like, and I think it's OK.
It's like a totally different thing.
And I like to tell people like, oh, I just made this Monet knock
off. But it's, I mean, I find it

(47:50):
hilarious because I'm like, I wouldn't normally I would never
have thought like, oh, I'm goingto make a Monet.
Like I, I have the second version of that Paris show going
to nada next week. And I literally made a Monet
painting that has those like gilded frames, the gilded framer
in it. Like I had car, I had sculpted
those giant frames out of ceramic and I had glazed them

(48:11):
gold. So like, and I really would love
to do a show that was like all of those frames.
I'm just going to do like crazy framed paintings.
Like I made three, I made like aVan Gogh and then I did another
one of a Monet. And they, I mean, they don't
look like the Monet or the Van Gogh.
But my favorite part is the frames because they're just so
insane. You know, they're just, like, so

(48:31):
elaborate and baroque and yeah, and they're sculptural.
And they're like, and they're the invisible part of the work,
you know, invisible. Like, I mean, back then their
frames were like, handcrafted and gorgeous.
But yeah, that's so fascinating.Oh my God, I love that.
I can't wait to see that. And the frames are like a lot of
times more excite and distracting from the painting,

(48:53):
you know? So you're like, oh, I guess I'm
really looking at this crazy assframe around a Rembrandt or
whatever, so. Yeah, you're like, no offense,
Rembrandt. I never forget the frames.
Frames are amazing. That is, I feel like not always.
Yeah, I feel like sometimes the painting, you don't see the
frames, but it's almost like a sign that they didn't choose the

(49:15):
right frame if you're looking atthe frame more than you are the
painting. Totally, totally.
Yeah, I. Should just do it another.
That's awesome, I love that idea.
I can't wait to see where it goes.
Yeah, yeah, I will send you pictures when they're up.
They are really. Yeah.
I just love making those frames.So I'll just I'll just have a

(49:36):
show of all. Frames that's so exciting with
like incidental paintings inside.
Well, I literally, I was going to tell you offline because I
didn't want to be like everybody, like give everyone
the idea, but I think you shouldhonestly, that was like what I.
Yeah. And I had started these works
like last summer and I never. And I made a bunch of these,
like little paintings with frames I wanted to.

(49:56):
Yeah, I had a whole like idea ofhow to hang it salon style, and
I just never got around to it. But yeah, maybe now that I've
made a few for this other show, the the crazy frames will come
back. So yeah, thank you.
Yeah, thank you for that idea ofit tying it together with
karaoke. I will make sure to talk about
it that way at Not A thank you. Yes, and then you could like

(50:21):
have a karaoke booth in the. That would be a dream I can
bring. I have one of those portable
mics where everything is in the mic, so I and it I had the
speakers in the mic too. So I should just, I should just
bring it to nada. I I had one of those and brought
it to Iceland for residency and it was super fun.

(50:41):
They're awesome. Yeah, yeah.
My partner gave me one for Christmas and I thought it was
so dumb but now I'm like this isamazing.
Yeah, it's not. I mean, well, it is a little
dumb because, you know, there's so many ways to set up like a
DIY karaoke setup that it feels a little extra to have.

(51:02):
Like mine was like a pink quartzgold or whatever, you know,
microphone with like a speaker. I'm like, OK, this is a little
extra when I could just do YouTube karaoke.
But at the same time it adds a little like formality to it that
I think is fun for a party. Yeah, totally.

(51:22):
Well, I wanted to give you a chance to talk about any woo woo
subjects that you feel have either influenced you or like if
you have any stories that were kind of like metaphysically
extraordinary phenomenon, supernatural phenomenon.
Yeah, I, I don't know if I have AI, wish I had experienced

(51:45):
something supernatural. I wish I had been more open to
that. But I will say my entire life
and everything in my parents culture is centered around Fung
sui and our our house was entirely remodeled to have the
best Fung sway possible. So I grew up in this large house
in the South Bay and we had thisvery large living room that

(52:07):
looked like a courtyard, though I think they just were really
about it. Whoever designed it was just
really a bad designer. And so because the front door
would just open all the way to the back of the living room, the
Fung Sway master had my parents construct different walls in
that giant courtyard living room.
And so it basically is like a maze to redirect the water to be

(52:31):
the most profitable possible. And so yeah, every single house
or every single room in our house was oriented for maximum
Feng sway. So I would say like, and then
everyone when they're born in myfamily has their entire Feng
sway chart red or their, you know, their Chinese astrology
red for their entire lives. I don't know where my chart

(52:52):
went, but I know every single child in my paternal grandfather
family, they're very, very traditional.
And they, we all had our charts read as children.
So that's probably our names were chosen based on that.
So I would, I would say that Woowoo is just part of the regular
lifestyle of a Chinese person. So I, I don't, I don't think too

(53:14):
much about it because I've already had to.
It's already just something we had to do all the time is listen
to the film. So I master and it's like things
like, Oh, you can only have a birthday or you can you, you, I,
my parents, I'm dear with the dragon.
And so everyone had birth that year.
It gave birth that year because that's the lucky year to have a
kid. So I think a lot of that is,

(53:36):
yeah. So I would say I'm just the
product of a lot of Chinese astrology and like interesting
important dates, like when people get married or when they
open a business. Like all of that is centered
around when you ask the astrology master.
So it's any, any kind of important holiday we had, we
asked the astrology master like what day should we open this new

(53:59):
office or whatever. So have you applied that those
principles to your own home or like, you know, decorating the
the tree house or have you kind of used what you've learned from
that? In a very, in a very basic way,
like I know you can't have like 2 doors in a row or you can't

(54:21):
have your headboard that's on the same wall as the door to
that room because you don't wantyour head to be like, there
could be spirits passing the hallway next to the open door.
So you don't want your head to be close to the spirit that
might be going up and down your hallway.
And so there's a lot of principles like that that bless

(54:41):
you that were like pretty normalin my upbringing.
And so I still, you know, I still don't put the headboard
next to the next to the door. Yeah.
And I, yeah, they're, they're definitely things where I don't
block the energy from the front door to the middle of the living
room. So yeah, OK, yeah, that would be

(55:03):
my my general lifestyle. That's cool.
All right. Did you remember anything?
Do you like have any memory of your birth chart in Chinese
astrology that like would be helpful?
Were you ever like, oh, that's something I need to do in my
life because my astrology is kind of guiding me that way.

(55:26):
Like did you kind of look at it like that at all or?
I generally I don't know where the chart is and I think it's
all in Chinese and I cannot reach.
I can speak Chinese but I can't read.
But I do know generally, like around your birth year, you have
to be really careful because youmight be in bad health.
That's generally that's generally the one we all abide

(55:48):
by. It's like, oh, it's your year.
Be very careful. It's not like celebrate it's
your year. It's like, no, be very vigilant
because that's when things can enter.
I know what things but it's likethe.
There's like a porousness or something.
Yes. Like it's very your where your
year is your most vulnerable. So I guess, yeah.

(56:10):
We'll take note, everyone. Yeah, I'm used the monkey, so I
wonder when that's coming up. Yeah, but just be careful.
During. I guess I'll look it up, yeah.
Yeah, and all my all my bad personality traits, they've all
attributed to me being a dragon.So that's that, that's what I
know. It's I've been told that my
whole life. It's like, oh, you're like that.

(56:31):
You're such a brat. You're really, you're very
lucky, but you're brat and you know, I don't that that's that
kind of stuff. So yeah, that's the lucky year.
But I'm not nice, I guess. But that's just.
Family, the exact opposite of what I know about you.
Thank you, Thank you. Well, tell my family.

(56:51):
Well, you know, we're all different with our family.
So they all saw me as like. Totally a bad three, Yeah,
Everybody knows for sure. Yeah, so.
Yeah, I will. I will also say I have an aunt
that's slightly on the she can see things side, so I guess that
is AI mean. I wish I could say she had seen
something for me, but she just has a very interesting sense of

(57:15):
what's happening. Like not the future, but she can
read everything so she gets verytired.
Oh, is she the one at that was at your show that stayed at your
show and was taking photos? Nothing.
Not that one. She's a party animal, that that
one. She has no psychic sense because
she she, she's, she doesn't get exhausted by anyone because
she's. Not reading, I see.
She's like a social butterfly. She loves partying, but the

(57:38):
other aunt, her sister, is like highly, highly intuitive.
And the second she goes into herroom, she's drained because I
think she feels all the voices and the people in there.
And yeah, we, I know that she has that, that sense.
But I, I, she keeps it under wraps so that that's my only
other brush with a woo, like a personal woo, OK.

(58:02):
Well, my next guest that I'm going to interview in a week or
two is someone who does mandala painting interpretations, and I
did a session with her and so cool.
The middle is like you, and thenyou have these different
sections that are parts of your life.
It's really cool. Her name's Renate, Renate Hume.

(58:26):
And my middle section, I just kind of did a couple strokes and
it looks like water and, and I'mpretty psychically open.
And she's like, you're basicallythe only boundaries you have are
the ones that are set for you. So because it kind of just looks
like my, my, like the middle will just like like drain out if

(58:50):
I don't have something else there.
Like I have no otherwise boundaries.
And I was like, yeah, that actually sounds right.
Like I'm just like a little puddle that's like ready to just
diffuse into the environment. But that was helpful, 'cause I'm
like, that's a good way to remember myself.
And like, 'cause I think all artists are to a certain extent,

(59:11):
like kind of psychic, like 'cause you have to channel
whatever creativity coming through so.
Totally, I totally. I was like that OK, I need to
create like a cup or something for my water to exist in so I'm
not just constantly flowing everywhere.
Right. And you have to have safety

(59:31):
boundaries just to preserve yourself, you know, So maybe
there's some Fung sway things you can build around or like
real. Well, that's what I was.
Thinking. So I wish my apartment.
I'm in this new apartment with like not a lot of furniture
right now. And it's a little bit like
makeshift until I move my stuff from LA and I'm like, oh, I need

(59:52):
to figure the space out. So it's like not even though
there's not a lot in it, it still flows, you know?
So that's funny that you said that.
Yeah, the Fung sway, it can keepyour energy like together.
I think that's like a huge part of it.
So no, our whole, our whole house is like a maze because the
parents are really trying to trap the energy somehow.

(01:00:13):
I don't know. Awesome.
Yeah. Well, OK, maybe you could say
again what shows you have comingup 'cause it sounded like future
fair and nada in New York, right?
Yeah, yeah. So if anyone is going to New
York or yeah, I'll be at future Fair and at Nada May 7th through

(01:00:35):
the 11th, and I should be there as well at both fairs at the
same time. I don't know how I'm gonna do
that. I'm gonna channel myself into
both places. And yeah, I have new work about
Spain and Paris and they're small, so they could easily
bring them to the fairs. And yeah, I guess that's what I

(01:00:55):
have going on now. And I have a, yeah, I'm in Los
Angeles and I have a tree house where I have studio sales where
I have like small fun objects. So that's.
And people can learn about thoseon your Instagram, is that
right? Yeah, Instagram or website?
My Instagram is RAINAJL EE and my website is RAIN ajle.com.

(01:01:18):
So I should be appearing at bothso.
Yeah, yeah. And again, if you're listening
and you want to check out Rena'sawesome little treehouse, go to
YouTube and you can see her goods.
And if you're interested in following along in my crazy
adventures, I'm almost coming upon year 2.

(01:01:40):
Like this is like the second anniver or I guess, yeah, second
anniversary of our date on May 8th.
Congrats. I'm going to be sending out like
a anniversary e-mail. But yeah, you can go to
ourdate.substack.com and I'm noton Instagram.
So if you do want like the breaking news about the podcast,

(01:02:02):
I would say go to, you know, Spotify or Apple and follow and
subscribe because I'm not reallydoing much in terms of promotion
right now. So yeah, anyway.
Well, thank you so much, Rena. This was awesome.
Yeah, thanks, Tebow. It's always fun to chat with you
and you know, I, I hope you the best in New Mexico.

(01:02:24):
It seems really great. So great area.
Yeah, yeah, so far so good. And likewise in New York.
I hope all your posts cart post style sell.
Yeah, and if they don't, they don't take up that much space in
my garage. Exactly.
I'm very relieved back. Let's bring.

(01:02:44):
All right. Cool.
Bye. Cool.
All right. Thank.
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