Dana Hemenway on Public Art, Ceramics and Motherhood

This week Thibault talks with Dana Hemenway at The Space Program studio where Dana is doing a residency. They talk about Dana's background in public art, how motherhood has changed her practice, and what it was like working together as co-director at Royal Nonesuch Gallery in the 2010s.

Check out our next bonus episode for Dana's hot takes.

About Dana Hemenway

Dana Hemenway is an artist based in San Francisco. Her work is rooted in the excavation and elevation of utilitarian objects to make visible what has become habituated in our built environments. Hemenway uses these functional items as materials to form traditionally fiber-based crafts–– lights and cords are woven through ceramics or the gallery wall, extension cords are transformed into macramé chains. Hemenway has had residencies at the Bemis Center for Contemporary Art (Omaha, NE), ACRE (Stueben, WI), SÍM (Reykjavik, Iceland), Joya: arte + ecología (Spain), The Wassaic Project (Upstate New York) and at Recology Waste Management (San Francisco). Dana is a 2024 Eureka Fellow, Fleishhacker Foundation and the recipient of The San Francisco Arts Commission Individual Artist Grant and a Southern Exposure Alternative Exposure Grant. She has a public art commission at SFO’s Terminal 1. Dana has exhibited her artwork locally, nationally, and internationally. From 2015 – 2017, Dana served as a co-director of Royal Nonesuch Gallery, an artist-run project space in Oakland, CA. She received her MFA from Mills College and her BA from University of California Santa Cruz. She is represented by Eleanor Harwood Gallery.

Website https://www.danahemenway.com

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
Hello and welcome to the side Woo.
This is your host, Tebow, helping you navigate the wild
and mysterious path that is the creative life.
Join me as I ask our guests about the tools they use to help
them survive in the creative wilderness.
Welcome to the podcast. Oh my God.

(00:25):
Well, I just want to say, of course you're more prepared than
I am with your notebook. Amazing.
That's nothing. On it yet?
Very on brand for Dana. Welcome everyone to the Space
Program. For those who are listening,
feel free to jump over to YouTube to watch.

(00:46):
We will be here in the Space Program studio recording studio.
I'm here with Dana Hemingway, not Hemingway.
Hemen Way. Yep.
What? What is the origin of that?
I don't really know. I think it's mostly English, a
little bit of Irish. That makes sense, yeah, but I'm

(01:06):
sure your trees intersect at some point.
Yeah, that which trees? The Hemingways.
Yeah, don't you think? I don't know.
Right around the time of the inauguration, I was doing some
ancestry.com research. To.
Oh yeah. Like how can I leave the the?
USI see I. Just I didn't find that much

(01:27):
out, but basically a lot of Irish, a lot of English, a
little bit of German. All right, Yeah.
Surprised the Germans don't havea good record.
Yeah. I yeah, I did that in like 2023
and found out a bunch about everybody but the Italian side.

(01:48):
Interesting. Which maybe it's just that side
didn't do cuz you know, I don't know which one you were on, but
if other people had done research, you can kind of just
click through. So everything else had been
populated like back to like 10thcentury or something like really
far and then nothing with the Italian side so.

(02:10):
Yeah, I found a lot of stuff that I think my aunt put on
ancestry.com. I can like tell.
Totally. Like little notes about people?
Yeah. But didn't get too far back.
But clues, Yeah, Yeah. I like screw like clues as to
like what? Like what is the the mystery
like? Yeah.
Who were they and what did they do?

(02:30):
Yeah, I guess. Well, cool.
I don't have the bio for you in front of me again because I'm
not very prepared today. But you have been in the Bay
Area since inception. You went to Mills College for
your MFA. You're a sculptor.

(02:53):
You do curatorial work. You've done.
I don't know if you've done any painting.
Not really, not since under classes in undergrad.
You've taught at Stanford. You are the ceramic person at
the Minnesota St. Studios.
What don't you do besides painting?

(03:15):
Painting for sure. I have a lot of reference and
I'll be over here while people are painting.
I see like working on the ceramic kiln situation.
Yeah, I've gotten a lot more into ceramics lately.
It's kind of taken over my practice.
And by lately you mean like the last five years or?

(03:38):
Yeah. I guess it was so I always
associate you with that, but maybe. 2015 when I started to
kind of incorporate it more in grad school, I took a ceramics
class with a graduate seminar with Ron Nagel and that kind of
kicked things off. Oh cool.
Then there was a like 5 year hiatus with ceramics when I
didn't have access to a kiln. And then I did the Bemis

(03:59):
residency in Omaha and they had a kiln there and some really
good facilities for that. And that kind of reintroduced me
into it. And then it just has like crept
up more and more and more in my practice as time has gone by.
And Ron Nagel, he does the kind of alien like, fine, like
organic forms, yeah. He's like, I'd say a lot of his

(04:24):
work like stems from like kind of history of ceramics.
And they started out as these renditions of like tiny little
cups and vases. But you wouldn't ever know it
was except if you look at the top, there'd be like a small
orifice for a whole. So it was actually functional.

(04:45):
But they're like these kind of abstract, sometimes small,
almost like vignettes. Everything is is.
And they almost look like airbrushed or something.
Sometimes, yeah, the glaze is airbrushed, like a lot of
attention to kind of like surface detail.
Sometimes he's kind of like overthe top glossy drips that are
constructed out of clay but looklike they're paint dripping or

(05:05):
clay like glaze dripping, but they're actually a part of the
sculpture. Yeah, yeah.
So a lot of. I think he did.
So is he in or was in New Mexico?
Does that sound right? No.
Maybe you're thinking of there'slike Ken, Ken Price.
Price, that's what I think. I think a mentor of his and like
a big inspiration. But there we go.
Yeah, there's a definitely some overlap.

(05:26):
I'd say Ken Price is is working a lot larger.
Got it. OK.
Ron is always like in this. Tiny little Yeah, I've seen his
work before, yeah. Matthew Marks, I think.
Fully. Yeah, that was what it was in
LA. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
His work's really impressive. You know, I think ceramics is
one of those things where you have 0 idea how hard it is until

(05:50):
you try. To do something specific, Yeah,
yeah. And in grad school I just worked
in this really specific way. I was making stuff with
porcelain and I was trying to recreate hardware.
So it's making like nails and hooks and and paper out of
porcelain specifically. So it was just this little niche
area that I figured out and figured out my stuff for.

(06:11):
And then like I said, I had thatbig break where I didn't really
have access to the facilities. So when I came back to it, I
started working with with other kinds of clay and other forms
and it's just kind of like slowly built up.
So it's more and more 3 dimensional.
It's more and more like constructed objects where I'm
slip scoring things together andfiguring out how things can can

(06:33):
work and structure. Why do you think you like clay
so much? Oh.
Gosh, that's a good question. I think the plasticity of it,
like I think I'm I'm also often working with found objects.
So something I've like bought ata hardware store that or found.
Now, I've been kind of collecting things from like
found objects from the dump, from my recology residency and

(06:55):
those, but whatever it is, like these things that already exist,
there's like a rigidity to them.There's a solidity to them.
That's not changing. It is what it is.
I can kind of modify it to a certain extent.
And then the clay is like literally anything you can dream
of, right? There's just total freedom and
plasticity. And yeah, yeah, that surface

(07:16):
manipulation where you can like create texture, you can like
it's impressionable. I mean, it's super cheesy to say
this, but like making a drawing out of a pen and paper or pencil
paper, writing words onto a piece of paper, having a box of

(07:37):
dirt essentially with water, andthen transforming these things
into this like elevated art form, it's really incredible.
I think it's easy to lose sight of that once you're deep into
your art practice and you've gotan MFA and it's so cerebral or
whatever, but it's like also beautiful and magical, really.

(08:00):
I mean, it's kind of incredible to think about.
Yeah, yeah. It's very primal.
There's like these kind of raw elements that you're bringing
together. And yeah, I recently had a
studio visit with someone who was talking about the clay as
like, earth and dirt and hadn't really thought about it like
that. And so I've been kind of like
tinkering with that in my head now too, of like what is the

(08:21):
materiality of the clay that's so different than other maybe
materials I'm working with or kind of the materials we come in
contact with on a daily basis? Yeah.
Yeah, well, and maybe we could step back a little bit.
What sign you are. Oh yeah, astrology.

(08:41):
You said you pulled up your fullchart.
Yes, OK, so well my I knew this but my sun sign is Aries.
OK. Yeah, yeah.
And I couldn't. Remember, I knew you were like
April Ish. Yeah.
And I was like trying to remember if you were a Taurus,
which I feel like what also makes sense with your interest
and. Yeah, well, I was born 3 weeks
early, so I would have been a tourist, born on time.

(09:04):
So I do always think, I think about that sign.
I kind of relate to it too, but yeah, I'm an.
Aries and but that's very Aries.Like I'm going to show up when I
want. Like you can tell me what to do.
And mayor, my daughter is also an Aries.
I was also born 3 weeks early. Oh wow.
And she almost wasn't an Aries and almost wasn't like we knew

(09:26):
she was going to be an Aries. But she was like, late.
Late April first, yeah, so. Oh, April first.
Oh my gosh, that's funny. Yeah.
Does she have a good sense of humor or?
Oh yeah, She's like April Fool'sI'm born, I'm coming in.
You didn't think I was going to,but I did.

(09:46):
This morning she asked if I dropped a blueberry and it
rolled down the hallway would that be funny?
Oh and I said yes, I think so. I.
Think it'd be hilarious watchinga blueberry go somewhere it's
not supposed to go. That's so funny.
Why, Yeah. I like it when kids, like, start
to think about comedy. Yeah.

(10:07):
Versus it just things being silly and you laughing and being
goofy to like actually like a funny moment.
That was the first time she kindof something dawned on her like
that could be humorous. But like not every kids thinking
about that. So that's really interesting
note. Note that.
Keep an eye on that one. Totally sign her up for some
early improv. But yeah, and then my moon sign

(10:28):
is Capricorn. Oh yeah, me too.
OK, interesting. And actually Layla, who was here
a couple days ago slash last week.
I don't probably know that much about Capricorn.
Capricorn moon is like it's hardbecause the moon connects to
your relationship to your motherup till age 7.

(10:50):
So I don't want to get too personal with anyone's mom life,
but it's usually like you're raised to be more independent
and with the value of like providing and and like valuing,
like yeah, like being a providerand taking care of people and

(11:11):
achievement. Interesting.
Yeah, to that. And I guess apparently like
networking, like I was looking at a couple of different books
about Capricorn moons. It's like, yeah, networking is
your love language, like meetingother people 'cause it's kind of
this like social thing, but alsolike can be translated into

(11:31):
business and so interesting. Yeah, I know.
I think for me, my cat Moon likegrounds me 'cause I have so much
water and then a lot of air too.So it like ends up being kind of
like floaty otherwise. And then the cat moons like more

(11:53):
ground. What I and what is your rising
like? What's?
Where would I find the right ascendant?
Ascendant Cancer. Oh, OK, yeah.
That's cool. Very.
Cozy. So is the Capricorn an earth
sign then? Yeah, I guess.
I think so, yeah. And then Aries is fire.
I'm assuming cancer is water. Interesting.

(12:16):
Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, knowing you, I mean, cancer is very like home,
family, like feeling comfortable.
And yeah, it's got all the watertraits, like emotionally tuned
in, which I feel like, you know,you've kind of stayed relatively

(12:38):
close to home, but then have gone on like trips and stuff
that are residencies. That's true.
I don't know, yeah. But I know Cancers who moved
away from home and never came back, so who knows?
Yeah. But there's that maybe there's
just those different tie points that like you can relate back to
your personal history. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(13:01):
Or some kind of aspect of how you how you are in the world.
Yeah. Yeah, I have no placements in
Cancer. So I feel like, Yeah, with signs
like Gemini, I don't really haveanything in Gemini, so I don't
totally get it because I haven'tfocused on it, but that's cool.

(13:22):
They're pretty like, I feel likeyou don't ever hear shade about
Cancers other than there may be a little like clingy or
something like that's like the shadow side of Cancer, but OK.
Interesting. Yeah, it's really not a bad
sign. Yeah, you're good.
I think are there any bad signs?Well, yeah, I mean, like,

(13:45):
apparently Gemini and Scorpio are the two worst ones,
according to the Internet. According to memes.
What about Virgo? I feel like Virgo gets a bad rap
every once in a while. Yeah, for sure.
Yeah, because serial killers I talk about, Yeah, no offense, I
talk about this a lot, but I'm like, Virgos are serial killers,

(14:07):
Scorpios are cult leaders. And what about Leos?
Leos are like influencers. Yeah, yeah.
OK. Thanks for this crash course by
the way. Yeah, yeah, influencers slash
like lead singer disease, LSD, Yeah, Mata Mata Leo.
So OK, it's all in there. Totally.

(14:29):
OK. And then Pisces, well, like,
yeah, then you start getting to the stereotypes.
Pisces are like dissociative. Right.
OK, Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, very watery.
Yeah, and then Aries like rage is all about, like, raggy.
Huh. 'Cause it's like the first sign,

(14:49):
it's all about the individual self, 'cause it, it's like the
first sign in the wheel ruled bythe sun.
And then this, it's like the the1st house is what it's connected
to, which is the House of the self.
So it gets interesting. I feel like if you're in Aries,
you're working on yourself and some aspect or that's like a

(15:11):
part of your journey. Interesting.
Yeah, I don't know if I've tapped into my rage enough.
Yeah, you don't seem like someone who does.
Yeah, really dig into your rage,you know?
To like get. Every.
Once in a while, you know, like in the car, someone does
something. You got to just, it's like a
moment to let it all out. Totally, Yeah.

(15:32):
I mean, that's a good point. Like if there's a lot of ways to
process anger. Yeah, frustration in the studio
sometimes. Yeah, just like being able to
channel it into like working harder or something.
Yeah, yeah. I feel like I always have like a
moment of tension and frustration and what am I doing?

(15:53):
Why is this work? Is this ever going to work the
way I want it to? When I'm making something, I
kind of like that awkward, uncomfortable phase, push
through. Maybe I can tie it back to that
somehow. I don't.
Know, yeah, maybe like there's astubbornness or something
around. Definitely, Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(16:14):
I mean we Co directed Ron none such along with Liz, former
podcast host Liz and Zoe who is little shout out yesterday I
think on the interview. Oh no.
Shout out to interview sessions ago with ET al.
Yeah, they were talked about Zoebriefly, but yeah, so like, I

(16:35):
feel like we were all pretty stubborn in our own ways, like
with what we wanted, but then itwas very complimentary.
Yeah, it was a lot of hard work,but a really I would say
generative time. Like I think back on all the
stuff we did together and like how hard we work to make royal
non such such a legit operation,like just putting in all the

(16:59):
hours. Yeah, We did a lot of really,
really cool shows and we all hadother jobs for the most part, at
at least one other project goingon and our own art practices.
So that's like what you can onlydo in your 30s, basically.
You can't do that at some point.Yeah, yeah.

(17:24):
I mean, I think I didn't, I didn't make as much art during
that time for sure. Like it, it took a, it took kind
of center stage in a way, especially, you know, we all
kind of traded doing shows. So when you had your show that
you were working on, that's whenit really kicked up.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was a cool model though.
Like for people listening grown and such was like an artist run

(17:48):
space on Telegraph in Oakland and like we do a show every six
weeks and there were four of us.So like one person took on the
like liaising with the artists and doing the bulk of their
work. Like press release and events
calendar. There used to be all these
different events calendars. There aren't really anymore.

(18:11):
But. But yeah, and then everybody
else would be kind of there for the opening and stuff.
But it was kind of, it was a good model 'cause then you were
really in charge, but only a fourth of the time, which I feel
like is more manageable. Yeah.
But yeah, what we're talking about it with at all is like,
that was kind of a peak moment for all these, like, artists run

(18:33):
spaces and apartment galleries. And I don't know, I mean, I
don't know the scene here enoughto know like if they're still
doing that, but. I think there are.
I think sometimes it's just younger folks, like sometimes
I'll hear about things. I'm like, Oh my God, I had no
idea this was going on. And it's been actually active
for a year or something like that.

(18:53):
It's just slightly big enough art scene that you can something
can just kind of slide under your radar.
It's yeah, you know. In LA, it's totally like that.
There's all these really cool artist friend projects like
garden and yeah, like just so many different things.
Yeah. And they, I think that kind of
the artist run project space kind of for the most part has a

(19:16):
really short lifespan typically like maybe a couple years.
I think we're on on. Such went on for a long time
because we rotated through directors and people could kind
of take a break and pass it on to the next person.
Yeah, it wasn't personality driven.
Yeah. But if it's just one person kind
of running it and you're usuallynot like generating a lot of

(19:38):
income like it kind of. Has a lifespan that.
Yeah. And it's like I'm appreciating
it while it's there. Right, everybody, everyone
appreciate it because it's not going to be there forever.
Yeah, including the visitors. And yeah, I wanted to talk about
public art. And you did at least one project

(20:00):
for SFO. You did a giant ceramic
installation. And have you done one other one
too? OK, I.
Don't know why. I mean, it's huge, so it's not
to belittle it at all, but I waslike, did you have something
else too? But it's done a.
Couple of like. Corporate things, maybe that's

(20:21):
what I was thinking, yeah, yeah.None of it too public, but.
But like a hotel like. I've done some hotel things,
yeah, small things here and there.
But yeah, my main like out in the world permanent display
thing is SFO. And it's a suspended sculpture
that's like these two large semicircles that are made of

(20:45):
metal and then coated in wood. And then from that I've
suspended these strands of rope and extension cords that I've
macromade and then suspend. Like in those macromade strands
are also these, yeah, large ceramic beads that I had slip
cast and glazed. It's like a giant craft project
that you've blown up and made kind of like technologically

(21:08):
infused with lights and. Yeah, yeah, there's the
extension cords at the very top metal kind of structure that's
holding it up. There's actually like duplex
power outlets like you'd find onyour wall in your home, which
was an interesting feat to to put to get approved to put in
that way, but. Oh, interesting.
Yeah, but so the extension cordsplug in there, they are macro

(21:30):
made and then down at the bottomthere's lights.
So they actually are still functional as objects like
untouched. And where in SFO is it?
It's in Terminal 1. It's it's in the ticketing hall
on the kind of like South most corner of that of that terminal.
OK, Yeah. So you can see it when you drive

(21:50):
by, when you're dropping people off.
It's kind of like in the corner.I still haven't seen it in situ.
Yeah, I know. And I don't know why cuz I'm
like always kind of looking for it.
Yeah, but it's it's there. It's there.
Cool. And it's like, I want to say 20
feet high. Is that right?
I think so. I think well, it's the ceilings

(22:10):
are really tall there. So and it's over this I know
like escalator. Be more right.
Escalator Bay, I think it's about 15 to 20 feet in its
longest point and then it's about like 30 by 30, like kind
of square foot of ceiling space taking up.
Yeah. So it's, it's like exponentially

(22:30):
the largest thing I've ever made.
Totally. So how did that all, do you mind
like a kind of breakdown of likewhat happened so that you got it
and then like what were the mainproblems like that you had to
kind of solve while you were doing it?
Yeah. Well, let's see it.
There was I guess a call for like an RFQ, like a call for,

(22:56):
for qualifications for artists in like 2017 is when I applied
and I had been prior to that, I've been working for an artist
that did public art and done a lot of project management.
Which is bananas that that was your job.
Like, it just kind of perfectly set you up to be able to do

(23:16):
something like this. A lot.
And it also showed me that I was, I was curious about art in
public spaces and, and, and engaging with that conversation
like conceptually and also just like, you know, logistically I,
I had the, the wherewithal. So I had it in my head like
eventually I'd love to try this with my own art practice, but I

(23:37):
didn't think I was ready yet. But luckily that the public art
department at the time at the San Francisco Arts Commission
was really working on cultivating new voices in public
art and meeting with artists andencouraging folks to apply.
So some of the, the folks there did a studio visit with me and
they said, hey, we're going to kind of like send you some
opportunities to, to look out for and we encourage you to

(23:58):
apply to them. So I did which which was was
good to have that push because like I said, I would not have
applied otherwise. I didn't know that I could have
been qualified for it and I madeit to the finalist round for
that opportunity. It was actually for the hotel of
the airport. There's a hotel on the grounds
of SFO that they also did publicart for.

(24:19):
Never even heard of it. Yeah, there's a really amazing
Sarah Kane piece of the air. Train your tram or whatever,
whatever that thing's called. But yeah.
Yeah, the AirTran. Yeah, fun story about that.
I was, I flew in recent recentlyfrom Albuquerque and it doesn't
pop open if something is blocking the AirTran doors.

(24:41):
Did you know this? So basically I was like running
to catch it to like get back to Bart and I kind of was trying to
stop it with my bag and both thetrain door and the glass doors
that close you off from the train, like didn't bounce open
the way like the New York MTA oreven the bar.

(25:02):
It does. And it just started closing.
And I ended up like, 'cause I was like getting my hand cut and
my giant suitcase was like getting stuck in the train door,
not the glass door. So my hand was in the glass
door, my suitcase was in the train door.
So I just like pushed the suitcase into the train and then

(25:23):
everything closed. And so then my suitcase like
went down a couple stops on the train without me on it.
Oh my God. So I, what I did quickly is like
called some nice people were like, oh, there's an emergency
helpline, you should call. So I called and they turned it
around and came back and it was fine, but it was totally

(25:46):
bananas. I'm like, what train does not
have a safety guard? Very odd.
Like I probably shouldn't have done that, but also I was just
so used to training and doing that.
Yeah, that there would be. Yeah, So just so you know,
public. Service.
MTA slash humans of the world like that's a real safety

(26:07):
hazard. That's terrifying, Totally.
It's very good to know. It's good to know, right?
Like I have taken trains literally all over the world.
I've never had that happen before.
Same. So OK, anyway, continue.
Oh. My God.
Yeah. OK.
So yeah, so I was a finalist forthat.
I didn't get it, but I was really high up in the like all

(26:30):
of the three finalists had really high scores.
And the Arts Commission knew there was going to be a few
other locations that they neededto place art worth and they
originally anticipated because the artwork budget is dependent
on the total building cost budget.
So I think maybe that had increased so they knew they had
to play some more public art. Because of the like 1% exactly

(26:53):
like. One or 2% per public art rule.
I can't remember what it is in San Francisco, but yeah, because
of that, both me and the other artists that were finalists got
placed in different parts of theairport.
That's awesome. Yeah.
And I feel like that doesn't happen very often.
It might happen more than, you know.
I don't know how often people share it.
You know, I think it happens. I think it happens every so

(27:15):
often. OK.
Yeah. I don't.
Know that's so and then by the time I saw your piece, you were
like in a totally separate spacefrom your studio because you
can't build what you were going to build in the average artist
studio. Like no one has a studio that
big. Yeah.
So like I said, I think it was around summer 2017 was when that
started and then it was March of2020 when the piece was

(27:38):
finished. So it was a long process.
But yeah, towards the end was the major.
There were several phases, you know, in the last, I'd say a
year, year and a half where we were doing like big fabrication
pushes and I worked with a couple different fabricators to
build different parts and structural engineers to design
the hanging structure and make sure things were, we're going

(28:00):
to, you know, be safe for everyone.
And how did you know where to find these people?
Let's see. Like did the public art
department help you with? Art department connected me with
one hat. One hand was the company that
fabricated the like the large kind of like metal and wood
semicircles that everything was suspended from.

(28:21):
And then Michael Kirkman was a ceramicist who made the ceramic
forms, the beads, kind of like giant beads and help.
Glaze them and that was through like a extruder, like a.
No, it was. We I3D modeled the shapes and
then we sent them to like a likea digital fabrication place that

(28:45):
had like a robotic arm that likecarved them out of Styrofoam.
OK. And then he used those to make
plaster molds and then so cast them just like you would like a
mug or something like that. OK.
Yeah. But just very large.
They were huge. Like what was the dimensions of
the biggest one? They're the, the biggest one.
They're, I think they're all thesame height, about like 18
inches, 20 inches tall. So and then various like this.

(29:09):
Like about this big? Yeah, go to YouTube.
Yeah, check it out. And then various widths, I think
the widest one was around a footwide.
OK, something like that. That's like a really big one.
But but yeah, they. I don't know why in my mind they
were like 3 feet tall by two feet.
No, they're not. They're not that big.

(29:30):
Maybe because once I saw them, they were like, I saw them
hanging. So they, I feel like they take
up a lot of space. Yeah, it's interesting because
the scale of the of the piece really shifts depending on like,
like when I look at it in photographs, it's it's very hard
to explain how big things are. Yeah.
And and then like, yeah, when you're there in the in the

(29:50):
space, this massive airport terminal, this artwork, like I
said, that's like the largest thing I've ever made doesn't,
doesn't look that big, like, doesn't look overpowering like
it looks. Good in the space, but it
doesn't look too big if it's the.
Scale of it, which is, you know,it's hard to it's hard to kind
of work off spec and imagine things and hope that it'll will

(30:12):
feel right in the space but luckily.
How did you like make those decisions about the the size?
Oh my God, so much. So much needling and like
noodling around with different different techniques.
Like I did site visits in the space as much as I could
throughout the various stages ofconstruction.
I had 3D renderings of the finished terminal that I put my

(30:36):
sculpture in. I at one point like before 1 hat
one hand started fabricating thetop structure I like.
Made part of it out of cardboardexactly to scale.
Oh cool. And then I like made some
macrame that I stuck in the bottom of it.
Yeah, that's cool. And I put it like on very.
Tall things at my studio at Minnesota St. like I tried to
find like things that were as high up as possible.

(30:57):
Oh my God. Like, there's a stairwell that
like, had a ledge that was maybe.
Yeah, you know, 20 feet as I like put it up there.
I'm like, OK, what's it look like?
I put it on like tops of laddersas I could, just anything where
I could look at it from below. Oh yeah, and.
See what it was like, like, stand back, you know, 50 feet
from it, like, right. Really get that sense of

(31:19):
perspective of what it would look like when you're far away.
Yeah. Wow.
Yeah. So there was a lot of stuff like
that. And it just, it took a lot of
trial and error to figure out, like, what's the right way to
understand that I'm good with this design, that it feels
right, that it looks right. Yeah.
So by the time you ordered the 3D print, you already knew the
scale was gonna work. Yeah, basically, yeah.

(31:41):
You mean of the of the beads? Yeah, yeah.
And like same with the wheel, like you'd already done all the
models, so. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And that was another thing too is I got so used for a couple
years, I was just looking at renderings of this 3 dimensional
artwork. And so I got kind of used to it
existing in that. Like kind of polished.
Space not even polished, more like just flat.

(32:03):
You know, it's still flat even if it's 3D rendered and and
there's no real textures, there's no real materiality.
Like the ceramics are like Illustrator files or something.
You know, it just doesn't feel, it doesn't feel real, so.
For sure. I started to kind of like hate
the piece. I was like feeling very
ambivalent towards it. And then once I saw it actually

(32:24):
made like once we got to the point where we were making it in
real materials, all of a sudden I just like, fell in love with
it again because I could see it as a real object.
And it had a lot more. Yeah.
I don't know, like the kind of aura of the real things versus
the fake things that replicated,you know, rendering rendered
things was really, really important.

(32:45):
Yeah. And then?
You lose everything in the rendering, yeah.
And, and, and it, it's very important to make those
decisions to convince people that it's like gonna gonna look
good, gonna be right for the space you need.
You need those tools to build it.
But it just, it's hard to remember in the process that
it's gonna become real and therefore have a lot, a lot more
going on once that happens. Yeah, and like how 'cause I I

(33:09):
think it's normal that public art takes like multiple years to
produce. Yes.
How did you budget, especially thinking about studio space or
whatever, to allow for it to take multiple years and still
build it, you know, at a large scale?
Like how long did you rent out that?

(33:29):
Larger. Space.
Yeah. What space was that again?
It was. In project Arto.
That's right, it's. Called space 12512 something but
it's like a big that was so perfect that space, but it's
this very large, very tall ceiling kind of mixed-use rental
space that they have at at project Arto.
I don't know if they're still renting it out to folks, but

(33:52):
there's like a lot of theater and dance that goes on in there.
So because of that, there was a whole lighting grid that was on
these like chain systems that could gantries maybe they're
called that could go up and downwith like mechanical like like
pushing a button and so. You could like raise and lower.

(34:16):
The macrame cuz I, so I had, yeah, I had one hat, one hand
fabricate at the top. And they also helped create like
a custom light fixture for the light bulbs that I used.
And then I had the ceramics madeby Michael Kirkman, like I said.
And then I like worked with a team of assistants to do the
macrame part because it's like, who do you, you know, what art
fabricator you're asking out? How do you find the fabricators?

(34:38):
It's like, who do you find to belike, will you not extension
cords for me, totally macrame accepted cords.
And maybe there's someone out there who would have done it,
but in my head I was like, well,this is something I just got to
do myself, right? So plus, you know, like I guess
you'd have to there was a. Shot of creative decision making
in that process too. So it would have been.
So many different nods that you could be doing and.

(35:00):
That not that many knots, but just the pattern, you know, and
how to make it look good. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so like just to be able to have that decision making happen
on the fly was actually really great.
Yeah. Or just, you know, the minutiae.
The overall pattern was laid out, but the minutiae of the
decision making. And you wove like the beads in

(35:21):
there, right? So that had to be kind of done
with multiple people. Yeah, and because I wasn't
cutting the extension cords at all.
I wanted them to exist as found objects.
I didn't want them to be modified in any way and I I
needed the light bulbs to, you know, like land in a certain
spot. I actually macro made them
upside down and then. Like you started from the bottom

(35:41):
and yeah, up. I started from the lights and
worked up. So I had to like create a whole
mechanism for hanging the strands upside down and then
flipping them over in the end tokind of like we call it them and
like make sure everything landedright and just kind of like do a
final touch. So having the the thing that
allowed it to be raised and lowered so I could like make it

(36:02):
upside down, then lower it, thenturn it up, right side up.
There are a lot of things like that.
There was a moment where the therope that the extension cord or
macroade around or like is a twisted like a three strand rope
and it had to be kind of like hung up and stretched out before
the beads were attached to it. Otherwise it would like twist
and contort in all these crazy ways.

(36:23):
What's the way that the beads sat on it and did you?
Figure that out from doing it wrong the first time and then
having to redo it. Yeah, well, 'cause I just got
done with a large scale fabrication of this painting and
this similar thing happened to her.
Like she did all these things and then realized they weren't
going to work for long periods of time.

(36:43):
And so it's a lot of like trial and error, like, yeah, at a
large scale. Yeah, yeah.
So having that space was great. But I think I had it.
I had it for about 4 1/2 months.And did you know that that's how
long it was going to take or? Yeah, I think I extended the
reservation of it by a month. Or maybe I, yeah, I maybe I knew

(37:07):
early kind of early on getting in there like, oh wait, this can
take longer. So I was able to just fill in
till the next person. Needed it.
And then would you do with everything?
Did it just go immediately to the airport or?
Yeah, like it's good. Yeah, because I was like, yeah,
project or sorry, Atao Fine Art Services, the art installers for

(37:27):
the. They were able to take it right
away. They picked it up.
And did you have that if they delivered?
It straight to the airport or ifthey put it in storage for a
little bit and then delivered itto the airport, I think that's
what happened. OK, Yeah.
And did you have to pay for storage?
The Arts Commission paid for theinstallation, so I didn't have
any details about like Atao's final invoices or how how.

(37:49):
OK, so that wasn't your. Yeah.
I'm just curious if like you're fabricating, but then also if
things aren't on time or they'retoo early.
Like, that's what I was thinking, yeah.
Yeah, and things always take longer or shorter.
Like there was an earlier phase where we hung the kind of like

(38:10):
metal and wood semicircles that supported the macrame when the
building was much more raw and we could have access to the
ceiling 'cause it's actually thethe, the metal poles that are
supporting that are like welded into the ceiling like they're.
Definitely the circles of. Your piece, they're like
permanently fixed in a very integrated way into the

(38:31):
architecture and then 'cause. They were building that new
terminal. That's right exactly.
I do remember. That and then they put a drop
ceiling down, you know, below that.
So there's, you know, you can't see where it's attached to like
the ceiling of the building. But all of that had to happen
when the building was in a much more raw state and they had to
put scaffolding up for that and for other things.

(38:53):
And there was a lot of stuff where it's like, oh, the
scaffolding is going to be up for this one month.
And that's like your one chance or like a week or whatever it
was. And we were, you know, it's very
stressful. And then all of a sudden it's
just there for months on end, you know, because the
scaffolding company will agree to make sure that it's there for
that very specific amount of time.
And then they might not come andpick it up for a very long time.

(39:15):
And so we actually had more timewith it than we thought.
But just stuff like that, that'slike very unpredictable in the
construction industry that for me as an artist coming into that
space was pretty stressful. Well, and it sounds like you are
the one who has to constrain yourself, whereas they don't
have to. Like if they're deciding to
extend, they can extend but you can't say I need more time or

(39:38):
something. Yes, and you're as the artist,
you have this within your own studio and circle.
You're like the center of it all.
And your art is the biggest thing you've ever made and it's
so super important to you, but to the building it's like.
You're like a little P. Yeah, it's like that thing they
care about the least. They're like, we need to make

(39:58):
sure, like there's power, we need to make sure that the
toilet flush, like we need to make sure like people can move
through these spaces. Like there's just so many more
things that they care about, right, that have nothing to do
with the art that has to. Do with and they don't even
really care how it looks almost.Sometimes it sounds like.
Certain people who care a lot and you know, like there's
obviously, you know, like, like the way the airport looks is

(40:22):
very. Designed and yeah.
Architects with vision and and they want the art art to be
integrated into that. But but when it comes to the
actual construction and buildingof it, you know, it's very like
did lowest rung, you know, like.Yeah, you're like, you're not
the priority, but did you feel like you were able to like,

(40:44):
negotiate for things at all based on aesthetics?
Yeah, yeah, for sure. You know, and, and sometimes
there'd be like shocks that would be really surprising.
Like they, I designed the, the, the kind of layout of the
artwork in conjunction with how the escalator kind of opening

(41:04):
opened up from the floor, the ticketing floor into the like
baggage claim floor. And then they kind of changed
the shape of that. And and, you know, I just, I
just thought it was the end of the world.
At the time, Oh my God. This is never going to work.
It's not going to look at it. It looks fine, everything's
fine. But you know, it was very
shocking to have something that I was like so attached to

(41:26):
aesthetically as part of the design of because.
That's how you designed it. Change, you know, without any
warning. No one telling me you know and.
You would have done something different had you known.
For a while I couldn't even confirm like what was actually
built, like what was the thing that I'd be coming into versus
what, you know, which plan was current.
But you know, so there's stuff like that that I think, you

(41:49):
know, now that I know certain things going into like a future
project, I would be much more I guess one plastic about the two
like aware of and kind of like, you know.
Engaged with more like it would have asking more questions have
even helped or? Or just, yeah, like maybe just

(42:09):
more plastic around it. Like just assuming that things
are not. It seems very like this is an
unchanging thing, but things canchange at the very last minute
and kind of grand ways. Yeah, in this case, it was about
egress. They're like the the opening's
too big. There's not going to be enough
room for people to like walk when they're like getting off
the leaving the secure area. And they save.

(42:30):
And heading down to a baggage claim.
So they widen the kind of walkways around it and shrunk
the opening. You know, like then they did
that really later. On oh and that I see so they
made it smaller so like what theamount of room your piece was
taking? Over was kind of different than
what it was, but it was fine. It all worked out like I said,
but. Fascinating.

(42:52):
Oh my God. Yeah.
And there's a lot of things about like lighting the piece.
That was interesting. That was a challenge.
Yeah. Yeah, there was some there.
Working with electrical in public art was really hard.
Making a piece that had electrical components was really
hard. There was some, like I said, we
put these duplex power outlets up at the top.

(43:13):
Those are only meant to be in walls.
So that's kind of like already taking something that's rated
for a certain use and modifying it for a new use where it was
actually like there was nothing necessarily dangerous about it
or unsafe. It was very safe, but it was
different than what it was intended.
So it turned out we had to UL list the whole entire piece.

(43:35):
And what does that mean? Well, anytime you buy anything
electrical like an extension cord, even on your laptop
charger or whatever, if you turnit over, you'll see like a
little circle with a U and an L or sometimes it's another
company that approves it. But basically it's a kind of
like a stamp from a third priority that takes that
electrical object and puts it through all these like rigorous

(43:57):
tests to make sure like, is it going to catch on fire?
Oh, I see, you know, is it goingto, is it going to overheat?
Is it going to do something thatwould cause like some kind of
catastrophic issue? And so.
Doesn't the public art organization also do that 'cause
I remember Zoe as part of her job for the SFAC would like set

(44:17):
things on fire and she'd take, she would take videos like where
like if an art piece was going to be somewhere in a public
space, she would like do like a fire test or a stress test or
like. That she ever had to do
something like that? Yeah.
And then she'd like keep it in afile with the piece as part of
the insurance to show like either it does or it doesn't

(44:40):
that's. Amazing.
There was a lot of stuff I had to do to make sure that yeah,
the artwork was fire resistant. So I had to dip, have the I
didn't do this. I shipped it off to a place, but
have the rope dipped in like a fire resistant retardant
solution. I had to buy zip ties that were
fire retardant. I had to buy because there's zip

(45:01):
ties holding things together. I had to have all the little, I
had all this like fine wax string to like finish the ends
of the rope that all had to be fire treated.
I had to coat the wood and fire treat.
I had wood in certain areas to help the ceramic stamp.
I had to buy extension cords that had fire treating in them.

(45:23):
So yeah, there's all of that, but then there's the electrical
and that you've, you've done your schematics on wiring
correctly so that it's not goingto catch on fire, right.
And there was some gaps in like approval there.
And that basically the only way the airport would let my artwork
be installed was if it was the whole artwork was UL listed.

(45:44):
And Zoe helped out with this A. Lot.
OK, cool. If it wasn't for Zoe, I don't
know if my piece would have beeninstalled, but yeah.
So we had to fly someone out from like somewhere else who was
employed by UL to field this, the piece.
And he plugged it in and did allthese tests and made sure that
the extension cords didn't overheat in any way.
And then my artwork actually hasone of those little stickers

(46:06):
like every. Like on it?
Yeah. It says UL, let's do it.
Wait, really? Yeah.
So you're like part of my piece now.
See it? But OK, It's like.
Very high up in the in a corner of the top of the piece.
Yeah, so intense. I'm getting exhausted hearing
about it. Like definitely.
Needed to go to therapy like during the end of that.

(46:27):
Yeah, Oh my gosh. Stressful, I thought.
Like I guess I'm. Just get a punching bag I.
Guess I'm just an insomniac. But then I realized like, oh,
it's this. It's this project.
Like the stress had left my bodyfrom that.
Oh, interesting. I know.
I kind of lose track of how stressful my life is and can't
sleep like right now I'm like, not sleeping a lot.

(46:49):
And it's like, like, yeah, cuz there's a lot going on.
Yeah. You know, like, hello.
Yeah. Even if you acknowledge it in
your daily life, yeah, your body's still holding on to it,
maybe in a different way than you think.
Yeah. And sometimes it takes a while
to like be compressed from thosesituations.
It doesn't just like, you know, whatever it is that might be

(47:10):
kind of bringing that up, like it's not going to just go away,
but like the minute that thing is gone.
Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
You got to like, have you done any punching stuff, like boxing?
No punching stuff. I feel like I need that others.
Now then, then, but there, yeah,maybe there was some, sorry,

(47:31):
maybe there was some, some need to punch things then.
But. I took boxing after getting like
laid off from a job where I was like more qualified than
multiple people in a given situation.
But it was like, I won't go intoit, but I was so pissed and I

(47:52):
went to a couple boxing classes and just punched the shit out of
a bag and it felt so good. That's awesome.
And I was like, oh, this is totally healthy.
And good. And then I didn't me too married
to do. When she's angry, she wants to
like throw something which couldactually hurt someone or
something, like just go punch that pillow over there.
Yeah, yeah, sometimes it feels really good.
It does, yeah. And there's like all these ways

(48:15):
to do it so you don't hurt yourself and.
Oh yeah, that's important. And then it was kind of funny
too because like in the one class I did, there's people that
hold the bags for you. Like you can do a punchy bag,
but then you also do like cross punching into someone's mitts.
And that's interesting too because you're like receiving

(48:35):
the punch of someone. Wow.
And you almost have to like punch back at them because
otherwise you're going to hurt yourself.
Wow to. Kind of meet the.
Yeah, you have to kind of meet it cuz it's like the force
stops. Wow, yeah, it's weird.
I don't know why that works, butit does.

(48:55):
Interesting. Yeah, Yeah.
I feel, I don't know, I feel a little bit like the current
political climate is where, oh, yeah, I need to get my, my
punches out. Hopefully more so than that.
I know. I don't know, I feel like I was
more activated in Trump Part 1 and then now I'm just like.

(49:18):
Yeah. I don't know if I'm not mad, but
I'm like, how can we be strategic?
Like I feel like I got just ragey the first time and I don't
have that same feeling right now.
Yeah, yeah. I feel like there's kind of like
a collective pent up energy around it because no one really
knows. I don't know, people.
People are approaching it reallydifferently this time around.

(49:40):
Yeah, I know. I am too.
Yeah, I feel that too. But it feels kind of pent up in
a way for me. Well, I know I wonder.
I'm like, is this, yeah, a natural response or what's going
on? Yeah, and it's there's just such
AI. Don't know.
I guess I've been thinking aboutthis lately, like I'm here at

(50:00):
the space program trying to complete this project.
That's you. We can talk about that, yeah.
And ambitious. And then, you know, on my drive
home, I'll hear something about the news.
And I'm like, I want to be mad about this, but I can't be mad
about this. I want to do my project.
I don't want to let it derail mylife.
Totally like I. Don't want to spend all my time
looking at the news. I want to spend my time like
making this project that I'm so lucky to have the, you know,

(50:21):
chance to explore something you know else and.
When I, I do feel like there's something about getting just mad
and like getting worked up and arguing or with the radio or
yelling at your friends, like how angry you are and then them
yelling at you and we're, you know, it's like that doesn't

(50:42):
really work. No.
So like we're to direct that energy in a way that is healthy
and effective. And it's OK if like, that's not
the natural response, like, but yeah, I just feel like, oh, I
don't want to complain to a bunch of people.
It never. It doesn't feel good.
So what? What now?

(51:03):
You know, what's the new alternative for people who've
already been through this? Yeah, yeah, it's, well, maybe
we've got, we've got a little bit of time to I guess, Yeah.
And maybe we'll come at it with some new tactics, I don't know.

(51:24):
Yeah, yeah. Like I think there's a lot of
stuff around individuals fundingthings that the government
trying to cut. Like NPR as of today is
basically like the the House passed the bill that public
media is going to be defunded. So all these radio stations are

(51:46):
running, you know, fundraisers and stuff.
So I mean, maybe if we all, instead of paying Netflix or in
addition to paying Netflix, so you're like $5 at NPR or
whatever your favorite radio station.
Yeah, stuff like that. Yes, you're right.
Like mutual aid are kind of likeself initiated, like funding
what you care about. Yeah, like instead of the latte

(52:08):
every day, one of the days it's for NPR.
Yeah. But it does feel like kind of an
like at this point, it's been hit from so many different
directions, you know, as someonein my like, you know,
indisposable income bracket, like it would be a lot of lattes
at this point to like support all the things.

(52:29):
All the things that are. Suffering because of the
various, you know, things that have been taken away.
Yeah. Anyways, yeah.
Yeah, no, it's true. I know.
It's like, but then you think about, I mean, sorry this isn't
one of these podcasts, but I'm just thinking about like the
Democrats did by far out fundraise Donald Trump.

(52:50):
So it's like the Democratic Party in theory has a bunch of
money that they could like throwat some of these problems now
that we should have to. But like we as a really nebulous
term because like that's a wholeseparate issue of who the we is
here. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But interesting, yeah, I don't know.

(53:13):
It does feel like there is powerto be had, like despite all the
laws potentially not getting past whatever or getting past
it's just unclear, like what, Yeah, what to prioritize 'cause
there's so many things. Yeah, yeah.

(53:34):
I don't know. Have you been rethinking, like
has it caused any changes in your art practice?
I know a lot of people had kind of like existential crisises
about their art practice in 20. Was it 2017 when he was first
elected? Yeah, I know.
The art during that time was so dark.
Yeah. Do you remember?

(53:55):
Well, and since then too, like we've.
Had since then real. Shift on like like a kind of, I
would say a turn away from abstraction, like a need for
clarity, a need for representation, like
representational artwork that. That was.
Very specific things and like isvery easy to read, like legible

(54:16):
legibility. So this is clearly what I'm
trying to say. Yes, that's a good point.
You know, like there's no hiddenmeaning.
I would say like art 2017 to like roughly now ish.
And I kind of feel that there's another turn happening.
And I wonder, you know, maybe it's too early to say, but have
you felt like you either in yourown practice or in others, like

(54:39):
seeing a shift or felt a shift? Yeah, I mean, I definitely know
what you're talking about 20/17/2016 that like I started
doing figurative work around that time for the first time in
like 10 years. Yeah, the figure has taken a
really big, like, center stage, I'd say.
Well, it did for sure. I think it's going away now.

(55:00):
Or I mean, I guess I'm not an Instagram so I don't know what
the trends are but. I'm just thinking of like big
shows, like we had what is it Amy Sherrod show like these big,
but then we also had like Yaoi Kusama SF Mama that's like super
abstract or like the sawa, thesekind of more abstract.
And yeah, I guess I'm thinking about trends and painting and

(55:22):
yeah, I would say spiritualism and art also around that same
time, because that was what, around the time like the 2021,
well, 2017, I think there was the first Helma of Clint.
Oh yeah, at the Tate. And then I think, and then the
Guggenheim, I didn't realize that and it maybe was

(55:44):
Guggenheim, Tate, Guggenheim or something.
But yeah, so I do feel like there's some spiritual
abstraction stuff that in like the transcendental painting
group show at LACMA, which I guess was also maybe New Mexico
to their Agnes Pelton. But I feel like that's like been

(56:05):
kind of an undercurrent. And then so there is this whole
like abstraction. But in a kind of spiritual,
realigned way. Interesting.
Yeah, I mean, right now I am making abstract work that's like
inspired by landscape, but it's like fully cave painting levels
of, well, cave paintings weren'tabstract.

(56:26):
But there's like this like, yeah, kind of gesture heavy for
me, what I'm thinking about. But like the context is more
important than where it's like, it's almost like the frame of
what I was looking at went from inside the painting to the like
full picture of like what I was doing because I was like making

(56:50):
some work on the beach. And I don't know, I'm kind of
interested in like the experience and trying to pull.
Experience of making or experience?
Of yeah, the experience of doingsomething and like where it's
done and I don't know, but I it's not resolved.
So I would say that's very new, but that also I feel like I

(57:11):
don't know if it's because of. Do you think it's like to get
outside to like change, have a change of scenery?
Or, like, that was definitely the pandemic, for sure.
I immediately, like, as a resultof my dad dying and being so
cooped up, I wanted to go outside.
So that was a huge shift. And I think that was why I
started making landscapes because I was like, dealing with

(57:34):
so much grief. And it was like, I don't want to
be inside anymore. Yeah, and I do feel like a lot
of people started making landscape.
Yeah, I feel like there has beenalso some spiritual landscape is
like a landscape genre. Interesting.
Well, I was also just gonna say like.
Plain air, like having a moment maybe.
Totally like people not wanting to work off of like reference

(57:55):
images all the time and like getoutside.
To get out when I feel like thatwas a pandemic response, too.
Yeah, OK. Because we just were all inside
so much. Formed there and maybe has
continued to build or something.Yeah, maybe interesting.
Yeah, I think one thing. I got a lot like, what were you
going to say, actually, sorry. Well, it was just about the

(58:17):
pandemic, like it one COVID still happening to like it isn't
that long since it rocked everyone's life.
And I think that leftover traumaof whatever your experience was
during that time is still the fabric of what we're dealing
with. It's just people think that it's

(58:37):
over, but like your body keeps the score, you know, like it's
all still happening. Like in my mind, like all the
students during that time if whether they were graduating in
high school or college or whatever, like those kids are
permanently messed up with that,you know, no offense, but so I

(58:58):
feel like to think that that is over now and that and we're no
longer dealing with the aftermath of that.
It's not true. I, I think 100% that's informing
even these people freaking out, needing Trump, daddy Trump to
like comfort them. Like that's part of it.
You know, it's like they really got triggered by the pandemic.

(59:19):
That's really interesting. Yeah.
I mean, it's definitely come up in the public art world too,
because I feel like there's beena real.
I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but it feels slower, like it feels like
there's less new building. Like it takes a while for a
building to be like approved, tobe made like.
To get to the point, yeah, To get to.
The point where the RFQ is out and I feel like we finally seen

(59:42):
that COVID gap now, like we finished up a lot of cycles, you
know, through 2020 to now. And I feel like maybe this last
year or two you've kind of seen.Right.
Cuz it's been like four or five years now.
Yeah, I see. Yeah, the gap is finally showing
up. But what were you gonna say
about your work? Oh, I don't know.

(01:00:02):
I was just gonna say. I mean, I also, I think about
there's like the bigger things in the world that affect your
artwork and then there's like the smaller thing like are the
more personal interpersonal things, I guess.
So having a kid like. I was gonna ask, yeah.
In 2022 definitely changed my work a lot and it got a lot more
like impulsive. I would say like like that's

(01:00:23):
cool. And I don't necessarily mean
that in a bad way. I just no, just like.
I think that's good, actually. Impulse.
Knowing you on impulse, I feel like that's a good sign.
Yeah. If you were going in the other
direction, I'd be worried because that would be really
hard for you to be more organized and precise.
Yeah. Like I had a hard like I had

(01:00:43):
this project that I've been kindof like slowly building up that
was more like, you know, lots ofsteps, lots of being organized,
lots of planning. And I just, I remember I had
like a studio visit, like critique group come by and I was
like, I could do this direction or this like other nascent
direction that was way more likeclumpy, like build it on the
spot. And everyone was like, do the

(01:01:05):
more planned one. And then I just like couldn't.
I was like, no, I can't do that one.
Interesting. Be on my computer and be like
planning things. And people suggested that that
was what you do. Yeah, but it kind of like I
mean. I made you feel bad.
No, no it didn't. Or just like you're like, I
can't do it. Yeah.
And sometimes it's almost like having that conversation where

(01:01:28):
someone says what you should do that, and it's the opposition of
that, like it's your reaction tothat suggestion that helps you
clarify what you want. To do and this should of it all
like, yeah, it's like, Oh yeah, should maybe do that, but no.
I can't, yeah. So it became a lot more like,
yeah, intuitive of like I building things that didn't

(01:01:49):
require a lot of planning or a lot of research prior to making.
And I think part of that also came out of like doing the dump
residency where I was just working with all these things
that came through. The garbage that dispose public
disposal. You know, area.
And ecology, for those listeningwho are not Bay Area is like the

(01:02:12):
dump and they do an artist in residence.
And it's not like messy garbage.It's like, what's the
difference? I mean, it's not.
It's sometimes it is messy. Is it OK?
But it's just not. It's not your.
Everyday trash. Yeah.
It's like the things that a construction site is dropping
off because they just like, demoed a building or like a

(01:02:34):
corporate headquarters went out of business.
They're dropping off all their office chairs or they're
remodeling, they're dropping offall their furniture, whatever.
Like, yeah, a lot of chairs wentthrough there.
Oh, interesting. Yeah, and then or like schools
get cleaning out things, but also like sometimes really
intense stuff like homeless shelters, like cleaning out like
the belongings or, you know, like just all kinds of.

(01:02:54):
And sometimes, yeah, like, really gross stuff like
restaurants having too much compost to be picked up by
normal trash collection and justlike hundreds of oranges peels
from orange juice or. Whatever.
That would have been great for my friend Victoria, who made
orange peel art in college. Only she knew.
Yeah, totally. Yeah.
But just anyways, from that likeran completely random assortment

(01:03:19):
of stuff. And then every hour it's
changing and a big bulldozers are pushing it away and pushing
it into like the sorting machines.
And you are just getting this slice of stuff like as it's
coming in and pulling from that and putting it in your shopping
cart, bringing it back to your studio and then deciding what to
make from that and like kind of collecting, organizing, you

(01:03:41):
know, responding. So I had some vision of what I
do when I came in there, but I also was really just reacting to
what I found, right? And I would say in a much
greater way than in my practice usually.
And so I think that that was also really green to like.
I'm sure. Oh my God.
Yeah. So I think that in combination
with just yeah, like not having as much sleep, not having this

(01:04:03):
much time, right, Just wanting to get.
Your whole world was shaken. Yeah, something that's more
therapeutic and like hands on versus like organized and
planned. I.
Guess right? Yeah, well, and you're also a
caretaker for one of your parents too, so.
That's true. Yeah, it seems like your life
changed a lot in a short amount of time.

(01:04:24):
Yeah, yeah, My mom has dementia now, so I'm also here taking her
a lot. Yeah, yeah.
Dealing with that, yeah. So it is, it is a very midlife
experience, I would say. Right.
But do you feel like you, despite these new elements, it
sounds like you are expanding, like you're growing through it.

(01:04:49):
It's not like you just, I mean, people do shut down, but like, I
feel like things like this come up and then you find out that,
oh, I'm actually like more resilient or I can let go of the
planning and it still kind of works out.
Or maybe you get better at planning specific things.
Yeah, yeah. And planning still comes into

(01:05:10):
it, but just in a very differentway, you know, like it's more of
a response than a, yeah, there'sa start, there's an, there's a
beginning somewhere that's a little bit more impulsive.
And then how I respond to that and build out the peace and.
Yeah, finalizing life too. Yeah, but less art.
But yeah, but both. Yeah, yeah.

(01:05:32):
I mean, I one thing I also noticed too is just like there's
like the thing like with again going back to like the thing you
should do or whatever. There's just so much that you
can't, that you, I'm trying to think about the right way to say
this, but like in your art practice, In my art practice,

(01:05:55):
yeah, there was like a kind of sorry, I'm losing my train of
thought here. There's this like need like one
of the things I should do because I have all these
caretaking things going on is like make my art more
streamlined, be more of like a fine-tuned machine where like I

(01:06:18):
work really like just like fast gestural or I send it out to
fabricators or whatever. You know, like there's all these
ways you could think of to optimize your time so that
you're able to produce to a certain.
Level and like maybe make it more uniform or.
Something you know on your hands.
But instead when I went into thestudio, I wanted to make more
detailed things and more maximalist things and more

(01:06:40):
things that like, like I like these textures where I was like
replicating the paper mache fromecology and clay.
And I was just cutting out little strips of clay and little
clay and like attaching them to the pieces.
So they have these like really intense textures on them now
that take a long time to glaze. And I'd be like, I have 8 hours
to glaze. We'll marisset her nanny share

(01:07:02):
thing. And you just wanted to spend the
entire. Time glazing, glazing the whole
like I would like run to the bathroom to pee and like run
back and like eat lunch for 15 minutes because I was like, I've
got to finish this today or I'm never going to be able to do it,
you know? Yeah, but it instead of just
like being like, well, I could just not do that.
I could not have that detailed texture that requires this very

(01:07:26):
like time consuming glaze. But my like you enjoyed it.
So there's like this really strong desire and need to make
the artwork that way. That's so wild.
And I think, I don't know something about the way my brain
has been working, like it's justgotten more maximalist and more

(01:07:47):
like more repetitive and frenetic with the materiality
and, and I just wouldn't, I wouldn't want to do it if I
wasn't doing it the way I want to do it.
Right, because nobody, nobody wants your art.
More than you wanted. Yeah, totally.
You know, like people do, but yeah, like, they don't care

(01:08:09):
really in the end. Yeah.
And yeah, so just I had to kind of just respond to that and find
ways to make it happen by the time crunch or like the
limitations. That's awesome.
I love. It and so I think that's
something too that I've learned from this process that's.
Cool. And do you feel like that it's
playing into anything that's bigger than just your personal

(01:08:31):
experience? But I feel like you've had so
much radical change in your personal life that, like, maybe
that's why we're all less fazed by this round of Trump.
It's like, Oh yeah, we just wentthrough a lot.
Yeah, maybe. So it takes more than that to
like make us frazzled even though like, obviously this

(01:08:52):
isn't good, but. Yeah, I don't know.
I mean, yeah, that's the other thing that yeah, I can't.
I can't in my situation. I can't.
That was such a big life change for me.
I can't disassociate that from the like larger it's.
Just all of the. Environment we're existing and
responding to because I feel like for sure that's a part that
has to. Be a part of it, you know, I
just. It's hard for me to isolate the

(01:09:13):
two things totally. You know, there's lots of
reasons why people have had big life changes during these last,
you know, 8 to 12 years or whatever.
Yeah, that we've been dealing with all this.
But. But it, it feels like starting
in like 2016, it's just, or likeas soon as Trump got elected, my

(01:09:38):
personal response to the world has changed so much because like
the New York Times, I remember just being like shaken every
time there was an alert because of some horrible thing he did.
It was like 5-10 times a day. And then I was listening to the
news like obsessively. And then it's like, yeah, I

(01:09:58):
don't know, just my coping skills for the external chaos
has gotten a lot better. And then my own internal chaos
has, there's been so many shiftsthat it's gotten better at
managing that. And so I feel like maybe part of
this response isn't like that we're apathetic.
It's more just like we don't need a full nervous system

(01:10:22):
breakdown every time something bad happens.
Now we can, like, approach it inlike a more mindful way maybe.
But I don't think that should beinterpreted as not caring
because that wasn't sustainable.There's a reason that, like, the
whole self-care thing happened. After that, like a couple years
of that, we all like, we're likeself-care.

(01:10:43):
That's true, yeah. Yeah, that's very true.
But yeah, I don't know. Yeah.
Well, and also that kind of likeuncertainty and level of
discomfort in the kind of grander world maybe made it like
that much sweeter to go into your studio and to make
something and feel the kind of respite of that.

(01:11:05):
I felt that a lot like sometimesI also took off like six, 6-7
months from the studio after Mara was born and also took off
a lot of time from the studio while COVID was happening
because I just, I didn't have any inspiration to make art
during that. Some people made like.
The most are made. That's what I did.
During it, and for me it was theopposite.
I just, I didn't, I work in sculpture.

(01:11:26):
I didn't have a studio to go to at first, you know, like there
just wasn't a way for me to make.
I didn't, I was like, I'll pick up drawing.
I was like, I don't, I want to make sculpture.
You know. Like I wasn't pivoting.
I guess it's another instance where I wasn't going to pivot
because of the moment to like the easy thing or whatever, you
know, like something that was achievable in that context.

(01:11:49):
But anyways, like, yeah, I don'tknow.
After the maternity leave, when I went back in the studio, I was
just like, Oh my God, I'm just so happy here.
Like I just love my studio so much.
Like I just feel so like myself there and just feel so like,
happy to be there. So yeah, maybe like.

(01:12:11):
That's a great. Feeling, yeah, I just wonder
maybe maybe that's something that will come out in people's
work too, is like as we're dealing with all this stuff in
the outside world that we can't control, that we know obsessing
about doesn't or doesn't really have a lot of like impact or
change on in our in our individual reactions to it of
just like that's awful. Right.

(01:12:31):
Yeah. Doesn't do anything else when
you just say that to. Yourself and freak.
Out totally. So yeah, maybe that will kind of
come out in people's work of like, I can be free in this
space. I am myself in this space.
Yeah. What does that look like?
Yeah, I don't know. That's a great place to and
leave people wondering what, what does that freedom of studio

(01:12:53):
life look like? Do you have anything coming up
or what can you share? We'll put some photos in the
YouTube video of maybe what you're working on at the space
program. But oh.
Cool. Yeah, I mean, right now I'm just
starting like down a new path ofthrough the opportunity of the
space program of working with bronze and making things out of

(01:13:13):
wax. It'll eventually be cast in
bronze. I don't have like a location for
that. I have a couple, yeah, a couple
group shows coming up in the next year or two that I'm, I'm
going to start making work for like bigger, bigger projects for
these group shows. So cool.
Excited about that. And then, yeah, I don't know.
I don't know what else. Yeah, that's that's enough.

(01:13:34):
Yeah. Here at the space program.
Well, cool. Thank you guys so much.
Thanks, Tina. Yeah.
Thanks so much Devo. This was really awesome my.
Pleasure and for YouTube watchers, feel free to subscribe
well button people listening feel free to subscribe.
Also you can follow along at theartdate.subsac.com and I'm

(01:13:57):
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