February 16, 2025 • 58 mins
In October 2024, Thibault sat down with Malado Francine and Kayla Tange to talk with them about moments when life forced change on them. They also talk about past lives, woo woo stories and being careful what you wish for.
About Malado Francine
Malado Francine (b. Malado Francine Baldwin-Tejeda) is an American multi-media artist based in Los Angeles. Her work in multiple media examines the intersection of culture and identity. Outstanding influences in her work include a childhood spent in Dakar, Senegal and Bamako, Mali as the daughter of former Peace Corps volunteers in a mixed-race family of Hispanic descent. She holds a BA in comparative literature from Swarthmore College, and an MFA in painting from the New York Studio School. She spent more than 15 years living and making art in New York City before moving to Los Angeles in 2013.
About Kayla Tange
Kayla Tange was born in South Korea and adopted by a Japanese American family. Her love for poetry and photography slowly progressed into a conceptual performance practice which incorporates elements of exotic dancing. Physical and psychic boundaries, sexuality and permanence are also recurring themes. She often uses dark comedy in her performance work to explore love and longing, societal taboos and catharsis. She is the co-producer of Sacred Wounds, a show around ritual, subverting cultural stereotypes and ancestral healing.
Show notes:
- Kayla Tange Vime Page https://vimeo.com/tange
- Kayla Tange Website https://www.kaylatange.com/
- Francine Malado Website http://www.maladobaldwin.com/cv/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:11):
Hello and welcome to the side Woo.
This is your host, Tebow, helping you navigate the wild
and mysterious path that is the creative life.
Join me as I ask our guests about the tools they use to help
them survive in the creative wilderness.
Leather pants. That'll do.
(00:33):
Good leather pants on the chair.OK, I'm going to have to make
sure. Wardrobe stuff.
Yeah, it's like. Like a squeaky shoe, which I
mean, crazy. I'm like, who is that?
Gilda Radner, where she has thatskit about going to the
interview and being like fart. Like she moves her chair and
(00:55):
she's talking, she's interviewing with some famous
news anchor at the time and it like makes a farting sound and
she's like, I swear to God, it was my chair.
And then she like they're like sure moves it around the stage
as she's telling the story to try to recreate that it was her
chair and it like never sounded the same that.
Sounds amazing. It was good.
Sounds funny. Yeah, I don't watch that now.
(01:15):
Well, welcome everybody. We have today 2 lovely guests,
Mulatto, Francine and Kayla. What's your last name again?
Tongue. Tongue welcome.
Thanks for having us. Yeah.
Thank you. Yeah, the podcast idea
originated at the studio visit where I met Kayla for the first
time. Because we started talking and
(01:37):
all these like synchronicities came up where we'll get into it.
But I felt like this needs to berecorded and given to the world
because like, useful gems were coming up in the conversation.
That was really fun. That was really fun.
We'll attempt to recreate, but every conversation's a little
different. Yeah, and it's an eclipse in
like 3 hours, so who knows what's going to come up today.
(02:00):
That is true. I'm feeling a little
scatterbrained. Me too.
Yeah, OK. And I'm the opposite.
I spent all day at like applyingfor things and.
So you feel really clear. Headed I like really organized
today. Wow.
I don't know why that's good. At least one of us.
Exactly. But yeah, we were talking about
how it's like hitting our chart differently.
(02:21):
So I guess to start, what are your sun signs?
I'm a Gemini sun sign. OK.
I'm in Aries. Aries And do you know, I think
it's I mean, we should just lookit up, but I think it's in
Pisces today the the lunar eclipse trying to figure out
like where, where in our chart that was going to hit, which I
(02:47):
honestly don't know. I kind of want to look it up.
All I know is I had like 4 deadlines today and it's been
really busy and I want to feel accomplished after today and be
like let go of all those things that I just finished.
Move on. Yes, decompress.
Decompress after a busy chapter filling up to the full moon.
(03:10):
Yeah, yeah. Now it's released after today.
I tried to do several things andwas very scatter print.
Yeah. But that's OK.
Yeah, Ditto. But a bit of a messiness.
That's OK. Yeah, it's in the sign of
Pisces. So do you know what your rising
(03:33):
sign is? My rising is in Taurus.
Scorpio. OK, so Pisces would be, I'm
Scorpio too. So for us it's like 5th or 4th
house or maybe 6th. And then for you it would be
like 10th, 11th, 12th house. Does that mean less important
(03:56):
when it's the house number? It's just where it is.
Yeah, it's just where it is. And then, like, I think there is
a relationship between like the self, how you interact with your
family, how you interact with like your partnerships, and then
how do you interact with the world at large And like
different parts of your chart operate that way.
(04:16):
It's kind of like, yeah, going from self and then expanding
outward. OK, got it.
So meeting her later house, it'sshowing up there may mean it's
more about the social aspect andfor us it's maybe more internal.
Oh. Yeah, like Taurus would.
If you're doing a whole house, it would be like your 11th
(04:38):
house. OK, so it's farther away then?
No. Or just that's the House of like
social connections and like groups and I don't know.
So here we are talking to your social community of artists.
I don't know. I've been pretty social lately.
Oh, have you? Yeah, your openings that you
(04:58):
had, you had some things going on.
It was really good. It was really fun.
Yeah. I love Angels Gate and the other
places art fair was happening atthe same time so I.
Did you have a piece at the other?
Yeah, I had a piece at Angels Gate for the method show.
What is it? For.
It's called Method and the IT was a juried show by Kira
(05:25):
Zonarika and it was partnered with a super Collider, so it was
a lot of like art and tech. What was it part of PST?
It was. Specific.
Standard. Time part of PST officially, but
I think it was it was similarly themed, timed.
(05:46):
Similarly timed. Yeah, cool.
That's awesome. What did you put in the show?
I put in my video sculpture called Case Number and it was
about my adoption had contained adoption documents and that was
like a piece I was kind of thinking about when we were
(06:08):
earlier talking about intentional spells and kind of
intentions. We make a piece like I had a
bunch of materials that I wasn'tsure what to do with, but I knew
I wanted to have a certain feeling.
And so I was like, when I was editing this video, I was trying
(06:31):
to achieve a certain feeling of this journey that I personally
went on, you know, starting withmy adoption.
And then I was a sex worker for many years.
And then I, I ended up getting very sick for the past couple
(06:51):
years. And so I was trying to take
pieces from my childhood videos and videos of me dancing and
performing and I had footage of after my surgeries of my body.
And so I was trying to, yeah, I don't know, capture some sort of
(07:15):
feeling. And I wasn't really sure what it
was at the time, but I was thinking in hindsight how I was
trying to capture a lot of joy, but also a lot of grief.
And so, yeah, I think that was something I'm curious to know if
you, because we were talking about the intention in the
beginning of and how that yeah, yeah.
(07:38):
And the difference between like the intention from the beginning
or the intention from the end orintention of emotion or yeah.
Well, that's cool. Yeah.
I mean, so the reason we startedtalking about it was I have a
bunch of paintings up in my studio right now that are for a
studio visit. And it's part of my Spells
(07:59):
series, which I, for each painting, like have an intention
for the painting, whether it's like a spell to heal fear of
rejection or, you know, a spell for queer romance or, you know,
and the intention is that at thebeginning.
And then I kind of let the imagery, like, take itself over.
(08:20):
But then from there, it's like, I don't know what's going to
come out. I don't know how it's going to
finish. And I actually, you know, don't
really know if it's going to affect people the way I want,
you know, And I've heard of other artists like Mulatto.
It sounds like you've worked in a similar way for a series.
(08:40):
But I think that all artists arelike, in all craters are in some
ways casting a spell. But it's like, how intentional
are they being? And is that actually what the
outcome is like what you were saying?
Images are definitely magic, andI think we have to be careful
what we put out in the world, for sure.
(09:01):
But also they are kind of conjuring, right, just by the
nature of like the act of doing.Yeah, absolutely.
I think it's beautiful. And I know, I mean, I know for
me, like I wanted to try out oneof my paintings.
So I like remember sitting and meditating in front of it and
like partly I'm getting healing while I'm making them.
(09:22):
But then I was like, OK, let me see if this is like a way to use
the painting because if I'm going to be like selling them to
someone, it'd be nice to know ifthey actually function that way.
And so I kind of meditated in front of it and I did get some
ideas around the thing that I wanted.
But like the painting was about clarity and I was did kind of
(09:44):
help me crystallize some of my thoughts.
But I mean. Yeah, that was similar.
I can relate because with my magic series, I would meditate
and enter a certain almost like channelled state, hypnotic
state. And they were they were kind of
specific to some during the course of painting became more
(10:04):
apparent what they were about and others really were like I
did layer like sacred geometry and magic symbols and then them
and like, you know, in differentways.
Like 1 was a house busing. I had a love charm and that one,
you know, a few of them, like I feel like they worked, like I
put them out in the world and they did that function.
Like did people buy the paintingand then tell you like how I
(10:27):
found someone? Yes, I found someone.
I put it up on my own bedroom wall and then I immediately met
someone. We were together for five years.
Did you? Tell the.
Person that that was the intention.
Yeah, it's a love charm and that's why he wanted it.
Well, and when I had it in the show, I'd met a man at that
opening, actually. So it's definitely working.
I moved to. California with him, but.
It worked with other people. Yes, it worked with other
(10:48):
people, that's what I'm saying. The five year relationship was
for my friend who bought it. Oh, I thought it was for you.
No. Oh, they were self telling you
like I did this. That's.
So I really like that whole series was really kind of wild.
That's super cool. I mean, that's what I want with
these, but it's like I haven't put them up anywhere in the
public. To make like really, really,
(11:08):
really dark. I mean, I understand dark, I
understand sad. But like, if you're putting it
out there, like what are you conjuring?
Yeah, I agree with that to a certain extent to.
A certain extent. Not that I don't put difficult
work out in the world, but. Right.
It sounds like people can feel that.
They can feel. I do.
(11:29):
I really do, because I mean, there's so many artists that
I've just not known anything about them and was just really
attracted to, you know, the workfor whatever reason.
So I mean, I, I do think that people can feel that and sense
that. And I and I think artist behind
it, yeah. Yeah, exactly like they're I've
(11:51):
been. Friends with artists because I
just was like, who is this yes person's work?
Like, I need to know this person, you know?
And I've literally. Yeah.
Have made friends that way. Yeah.
And that's really cool. Yeah.
I love. That well, and there's so much
art out there that there is inevitably going to be things
(12:11):
that are similar. And so you do always wonder,
like, why the one painting over the other when people are making
the same work essentially? And it's like, are people
actually responding to the energy with which the work is
being made? Yeah.
Yeah, or the intention or something about that specific
artist that's like resonating more.
(12:33):
It's hard to know like if there's like a magic formula or
if you just happen to cross something or you know, because
there's no real accounting for taste.
All of our taste is like really unique so.
Or if you're like, energeticallydrawing those people, yeah.
Yeah. Well, I know, you know, there is
a period when I was like really career focused and really trying
(12:57):
to get ahead in a very like commercial way.
And I do think that attracted tome people who were going to use
me and lose me as an artist. Like it wasn't, I wasn't
attracting people who are like, let me invest in this artist
because she's got promise and ismaking work that changes lives.
It's more like, oh, cool, I can sell this girl like, and then if
(13:18):
she doesn't like I'm going to move on.
And I felt like, oh, I was like creating that through these
pieces, even though the work itself didn't look anything like
that. But it just that the mindset
that I was making them with, I feel like maybe was, I mean,
maybe was drawing people in thatwere like, yeah, like I'll agree
to that contract, you know? Interesting.
(13:39):
Yeah, yeah, maybe. Yeah.
Or like maybe we attract things and aren't specific enough.
Yeah, that too sometimes, because that's happened to me so
many times. OK, let's talk about it because
I think that is probably why we started talking and or not why
we started talking, but why I was like, oh, I think people
need to hear these stories because you both kind of made
(14:01):
these, like, proclamations of like, I want this from the
universe. And like a series of events kind
of happened that were kind of a gift, but like, they weren't
what you were really asking for.Yeah.
I think, I don't know, SometimesI think it's random, yeah.
Life happens and how we deal with it is really that's where
(14:21):
karma comes. In yeah, how we handle it, cause
also sometimes really horrible things happen and yeah.
And you don't see it. Can we both?
Dealt with that. We both dealt with that and I'm
like, OK, but did I? Did I deserve that?
Did that person deserve that? Did that person deserve like a
terminal illness? Like, are they a horrible
person? I don't fully buy that you know
(14:44):
either. I don't think karma is that
though. Is that how you view?
Like when you think of bad karma, do you feel like there's
like a judgement around it or not?
Necessarily not in maybe like a religious judgmental kind of
way. I, I yeah, I don't know.
I think it's short form in our culture for that.
(15:06):
Yes, totally. But like I think.
We can have a deeper conversation about it.
Yeah, like how you view it? Like what do you think of as
karma? Like what do you think?
Well, I think it's complicated because we live on a planet of
elements. We don't fully exist in a 5th or
6th dimension yet we're still 3 dimensional.
So even though I can imagine andsort of ideate around this idea
(15:28):
of like like transcending my mind and the physicality and
like harm like I think we're on a planet with elements.
So my experience fire I don't feel.
Like it was, Yeah, hold on. What do you mean by that?
Like we're on a planet with elements.
So like, what is that? Fire, earth, water.
(15:49):
Things happen. We are physical creatures.
Things happen to us. We're affected by the things we
take in our bodies, the things we breathe by the people around
us, environments we're in, by the elements.
Fire, Earth, air, water. And how does that connect to
your own personal karma, if you think you have one?
I don't know if it does exactly.I think that we're just, we're
(16:14):
little creatures on a planet that we're kind of thrown
around. I think karma is more, it comes
in like how you handle what lifehas given you because we all
have different challenges and each life is so unique.
So I think karma comes in when you're like, OK, how do I, can I
handle this graciously? Can I still be kind even though
(16:37):
I've gone through this thing? Or can I still, like, I don't
know, talk about it with someonein a way that is still open and
loving even though I've had all this hurt or this, whatever it
is that we've gone through physically or emotionally or
spiritually? I mean, I do think there's
strange things that line up and I don't know if it's karma, but
like, you know, for me personally, I was overworking
(17:01):
myself and I was burnt out for several years.
And I, you know, kept saying I'mgoing to take a break.
I'm going to take a break. It's going to happen.
Yeah, it's going to happen. But I just seen a few more
months to to just grind like this because this is like how
I'm going. To like in the near future, in
(17:23):
the near. Future.
But I can't. I don't know why I think.
We've all done that. I'm doing that right now.
I've been doing that for seven months.
Yeah, and then you just listen to you.
Just keep into the story. You just keep.
Grinding and it's actually crazy, especially because of the
Eclipse, because I wrote a letter to myself several months
ago that was I'll I'll explain. But yeah, so I was like, you
(17:45):
know, grinding and grinding and I kept literally seeing like
success over the horizon. And I just kept, you know,
thinking if I just agree to do this one more thing, this is
going to be it. This is going to be the thing.
And it just, it wasn't, I just, you know, got really sick and
(18:07):
then I ended up getting, you know, I having just major health
problems that put me in hospitaland I was dealing with, you
know, water mold issues that made me very sick on top of
that. And so, I mean, I couldn't
think. There was some days that my
brain fog was so bad that I could hardly send an e-mail, you
(18:29):
know, And it was really humbling.
And I don't want to say, oh, wow, that was such an amazing
lesson, you know, because it waspretty horrible.
Not a lie. Yeah.
I feel like it really set me back a couple years in my life,
you know? But at the same time, I I really
(18:50):
did prioritize my health becauseI was like the, you know, I
making work is really important to me.
And if I can't physically do it,then work will not get made, you
know? And so I had written this letter
(19:11):
to myself, I don't even know howmany months ago, maybe four
months ago, five months ago. And it was.
And for some reason I was supposed to open it like a month
ago, but for some reason I opened it today not even
realizing it was eclipse. And then it literally said you
need to slow down again, like you need to, yeah, chill out,
(19:34):
take care of yourself. Everything's gonna be there
still. That's what you wrote.
That's what I wrote. It was literally like, dear
self, you know everything. No, nothing's going anywhere.
You can slow down and take a breath.
There's no fire, you know, I mean, yeah, like, yeah.
(19:55):
Like I remember Haley Barker saying in her talk like there's
no, nothing's on fire. You know which we'll get to
Mulatto's story, but. That's.
This idea, metaphorically, there's nothing wrong that needs
to be taken care of. That's been a good lesson just
in terms of like, yeah, like a, you know, a timeline that's
external, like when people try to force you into these.
(20:17):
I mean, that's not to say you shouldn't meet deadlines.
No, no, Like if you've got a Commission or a grant due or
like a job application due, that's different.
It's different. But more just like, yeah,
personal timelines or like agreeing to things that are
going to push. You like, I need to have a, a
solo museum show by this age or else, you know, everything's
(20:37):
going to fall apart. It's like, well, that may not
happen and how are you going to deal with that if it doesn't?
I was so ready for Super Me. Yeah, I wrote in my journal
sketchbook. I do things like that, like
hopes or. I mean, I still do it, but.
Right before I left for Senegal in January, I wrote it's time
for my 30 year retrospective. I'm ready and I started laying
(20:58):
out how I would do that and all the different bodies of work.
And this was in January. Five days before the fire.
So OK, you were ready for your retrospective, but I feel like
you both had this like proclamation to the universe
where you're like universe like I need to.
Bring I've been working so far. In my.
Turn whatever. Can someone like, can I do
(21:21):
something that feels like a marker in my career, like I'm
ready for that? Yeah, I'm ready for.
That you. Were.
Like our SO and then? Unbelievable.
So you you like this in your journal and you were like, yeah,
I need a change. And then you went to Senegal for
a like a vacation. To spend time with my parents.
(21:43):
Yeah. And then I came back early
because there was a fire in my home and studio, so.
And like what happened? Basically a fire starred in a
neighbor's yard and somehow crossed through the foliage into
my room where I have my 30 year inventory of art.
Basically all my precious thingswere in that room.
So I came, you know, it took me two days to get back.
(22:06):
Luckily I have neighbors and friends helping, but the firemen
like they threw everything out of the room.
So when I came the room was empty.
And so all the art was in piles like in the yard mixed with like
my neighbors stuff throughout the window like total chaos.
Strange. So basically.
And some of your work burned, but not all of it.
Yeah, well, it's about 10 years of paintings, like bigger
(22:29):
paintings are gone because they were in front of that window.
But then the older work that I had shipped or that had been
still wrapped or in boxes was only partially damaged, like
some of my magic paintings from the 2012 area era and then some
of the landscapes from before. So it's a weird mix.
I have some work still and otherwork that needs attention.
(22:51):
And but I mean, the interesting thing is that you did get a
career boost in a way like you got a studio for the first time
ever. Well.
I had to because the work is so charred and smelly and needing
repair. But I do feel like when we
talked about it in your studio, there was like this silver
lining feeling like not that youwould have ever chosen it, but
(23:12):
like, we were like, you know, I,I got a studio because of it.
I got a show of this older work like you had one that was I.
Tend I tend to be someone who makes lemonade from lemons and
this these lemons are particularly bitter.
So in conversation I do add a lot of sugar, but to be honest
it's it's quite devastating. It still feels.
(23:34):
Right. Oh yeah.
Oh my God. Yeah, I know.
Yeah. But like I'm doing the best like
some paintings or have like interesting new shapes.
I kind of like them in their newin their new formats.
In your book. In my book, I'm working on a
book project. I feel like I like I'm
determined as a human to make purpose out of my tragedies or
(23:56):
my challenges. Like I feel like that's part of
my job as a human and as I feel the same.
Way. That's all we are here to do.
Totally weird feeling. And maybe it's help for someone
else, maybe it's not. Maybe it's just self help.
But like, I got to get through it and jump to the other side
and feel more rosy because I wake up happy every day.
I do throughout the day. I can get a little annoyed or in
(24:17):
traffic, or I can get. I can worry.
Overthink us, ladies. Overthink everything you.
Know. But that's standard human fare.
But like Around the Fire, are you feeling more like at peace
now that it's been I? Mean yeah, you know, I got a lot
done in the last seven months and I've been on kind of on a
very busy schedule. It's a lot more than just
(24:39):
dealing with the physical objects.
It's like insurance claim, lawsuit, legal aid, you know,
the housing department to see ifI can move back into my rent
control apartment. All these like layers and then
like cleaning what I have left like from a smoke remediation.
And then like I just stretched 3big canvases.
(24:59):
Like one of my closest girlfriends is a painter and she
said mulatto. Like you can't just keep working
on these old ones and trying to fix them and save them.
Like you also have to get back to painting.
So I've been doing drawings for a while but I finally stretched
3 and they're waiting for me so I'm really excited and I'm also
quite nervous because it feels like there is like this weird
(25:22):
marker in my brain now. About painting.
Pre and post or like what do I do with the iconography that's
all gone versus like the older work that I'm seeing around
which are my psychedelic landscapes and really relate to
you They're very different, but they're I really relate and so
now my work is leaning more intolandscapes because I'm looking
(25:44):
at the work so it's all kind of an adventure and we'll see you
know we'll. See.
Yeah, like who are you now? Who am I now?
I don't know yet. I mean, literally this came up.
I had a studio visit right before you guys came over and
that exact question came up and it came up in this other group
that I do. Who are you now?
Who am I? And I literally wrote a blog
(26:06):
post that that was the title of it.
Like who am I? I love your newsletter.
You do I. Really do.
It's so good when. Partly the question is like,
well, who am I Tone? Your heart me.
Too. All of it.
You. Yeah, I.
Read them. Yeah, I do too.
I get really excited about your Oh yeah, true.
Thank you. Well, I'll have to keep plugging
(26:26):
away because, you know, it's like.
It's touching. Yeah, it's a lot of Labor to do
it. Is, you know, I mean.
Which is why I have no newsletter.
Because you. Talked about that.
You want to get on that? Follow up I did she's.
Got to go, I know. But you know, there is a little
bit of workaholism happening andI think there is that carrot and
(26:46):
stick mentality of like successes around the corner and
it like it is what, like addicts.
Basically, maybe we're already there, Maybe we're already
there. What?
Well, what if there is no aroundthe corner, right?
Like the success it might be in the future.
But what that 1%? Of the art world.
(27:07):
Like who's going to be so lucky?Well, and just like, what can
you be grateful for in the moment?
Because that's all that's guaranteed.
At least we get something out ofour work.
And the reason I like the project that you're doing is
because it feels really healing and really cathartic.
And like, I actually believe that's one of art's greatest
powers is even if we end up withsomething that actually someone
(27:30):
else is like, oh, that just looks pretty.
You're like no to. Me, we don't know.
Deeper than that. Totally.
You never know, like what it's doing energetically or like what
it meant for that person to makeit.
You know, I try to think about that when I see work that I'm
like, well, that's not really like like my cup of tea.
But then I. Think about that too.
(27:51):
Even if it's not, you know, visually my taste, I do think
about materials, the time and, you know, their thought process
behind it and at least respect the labor that went, you know,
into. And the risk that it takes to be
an artist, you know, not everyone gives themselves
permission. Well, I think we're becoming a
(28:13):
more artistic culture and I never saw that coming with
technology. Like I have to say, you know,
maybe we should have seen that renaissance coming like with
social media, with Instagram being like a platform that art
is very prone to looking good inthat format.
You know, I think that almost, it's almost like we're creating
(28:35):
new generations of artistic minded more consciously.
I do, but maybe it's because I live in the tunnel of like all
my friends and followers, like in the art world.
Yeah, it's good. I'm not.
Connecting people who are all over the world.
But yeah, I wonder, is it makingpeople more creative like or
encouraging more creative? Maybe.
(28:57):
Maybe we're just graphically better able to sort through
image because we look through somuch.
Yeah. What catches your odd becomes
almost like what we work towards.
I mean, I feel, I feel like, youknow, I, I grew up with no cell
phones, no social media. We're I think we're all old
enough to. Fit that I mean, but my friends
(29:21):
and I. Were always.
Like staging, you know, installations or like photo
shoots and, and things. And I mean, I felt pretty
creative back then. And nobody sees, you know,
nobody saw the work, right? It's just like a handful of
people that were there. So yeah, I'm not.
I'm not, yeah, I'm not sure. I mean, I enjoy getting
(29:44):
inspired, you know, looking online for at other people's
work and yeah, like, I've met a lot of people.
I'm so grateful for it. Yeah, I.
I'm grateful for it too. I mean, I have my negative
feelings about it too. Ditto as we.
Should, and I feel a lot of pressure about posting all the
time, but. Yeah, yeah.
(30:06):
And what's your like, what do you guys have as kind of a
baseline for your like spiritualbelief system or, you know, not
necessarily religion, but like similar to karma, Like what is
it that you believe in that gives you some kind of like
grounding in our reality? I mean, even if it's just like
what you were saying, gratitude or, you know, writing personal
(30:30):
notes to yourself to send later.Feel like, I don't know, it's a
lot of different things over a lifetime.
Like when I was younger, maybe the influence was more cultures
around me or rituals that I would see that would sort of
enter. And where did you grow up?
When I was little in Senegal andMali in Western Africa, but my
(30:53):
parents home also, It's all African art.
It's all beautiful paintings of people of color.
It's all textiles and the jewelry.
I grew up with this even Africa.So everything is sort of, I'm
sort of saturated in that. And I realize now that's in my
memory bank, but it's also seeped into like my belief
system how I create magic symbols.
(31:15):
That. Makes sense and also ideation
around like spirits which I had.I have had a series of
encounters with them over my lifetime which are very powerful
and also in high school got veryinto.
And by spirit meditating ghosts.Yeah, I've had experiences with
(31:36):
the spirits that were ghosts or angelic beings several times.
Do you want to tell one of the stories I've?
Also had a near death experience.
I mean, which one do you want tosay first?
I'm like, let's get going. I don't know.
Or do you want to tell any of them I?
Don't know, but like even the house I'm in now when I first
moved in there, like I'm, I'm very sensitive to spaces and I
(31:58):
could tell there was an energy like a female energy just like
pacing the hallway in my home. And I, I invited a friend who's
a shaman to come and sage it anddo ritual because I felt like I
wasn't enough because it was, itwas my home.
Like I needed someone outside male energy to kind of clear
that. You needed like more or
sometimes. Affiliated with specific spaces,
(32:21):
but I've had yeah, one other time it was with.
And so how did this person, did they just say like, oh, hey,
your dad, you should go somewhere late?
Yeah, I mean, there's a whole ritual involved in his belief
system where there's salt in every corner, there's saging,
there was certain types of wordsspoken, there was addressing the
spirit itself. And then I also did some cord
(32:43):
cuttings with the Spirit, which I felt had kind of latched on to
me. It was a he.
It was a she. Oh yeah.
And it was someone who'd lived in that home for many years,
right? And I could feel them.
But I've also had visuals. I've also seen spirits.
So I don't know, like you kind of wonder is I've also had past
(33:03):
life progression, hypnosis, right?
Very specific. So I don't know.
I've had a lot of different things in my life.
Do you? Are you a ghost past life person
like. I, I, I'm kind of in a similar
boat. Like I've, I've tried a lot of
different modalities and I, I think since I was a kid, I was
(33:27):
always really sensitive to things, but I kind of didn't
really know what that meant or what that was like.
I mean, I grew up Buddhist and then my mom converted to
Christianity before she passed. And yeah, I think that was kind
(33:48):
of confusing for me. And then I, I wouldn't say I
practice any religion in my adult life, but I mean, I would
say I'm spiritual, you know, like I, I have had ghost
(34:09):
encounters with friends that have passed and I definitely
have had like, you know, dreams like premonitions about things
or just kind of a feeling. And yeah, I've had past life
regression sessions and Akashic records.
(34:31):
I've, I've met with several Korean shamans and have had,
yeah, interesting things. And then, you know, what are
some of your past life? I was told that I brought dark
entities back from me or back from Korea when I came back in
2011. I was a sex worker in past life.
(34:54):
That was one of them, and I diedalone.
Just I mean same. You know.
Yeah, where were you? Do you?
Remember, it felt like kind of, I don't know, like the West
somewhere, like, like the kind of Wild West, yeah.
I think I owned a saloon as a mad, like I was the head of this
(35:18):
like saloon. Wow.
And I was the Madam. And then in a different life I
had been like a can can dancer turned sex worker.
But I think in the Wild West oneI was like the Madam, but I
still got into trouble and endedup getting like murdered or
something. Is it?
Is it a fascination? Yes. 100.
(35:40):
Percent. I collect like Wild West books.
About. About like.
No, I'm actually like, like I'vealways been like EW, because I
think because I've had these badpast lives that I've kind of
like backed away from certain things, which.
I think maybe I maybe I, I mean,even though it was not a
positive past life, I think I maybe I romanticize it a little
(36:03):
bit. Probably healthy to be excited
about it rather than. Yeah, my most recent recent past
life was in China and I was man and I was in it was probably
over 100 years ago kind of guessing by the the spaces I was
in and. Oh, when you were doing the
regression? It was very specific.
I mean, I could smell and feel things.
(36:24):
I was walking around basically in the past life regression.
I was in that body and it would zoom forward from a small age
toward the next age. And it would just, I would just
have the recollection when a related event or important part
of that life that needed to be addressed was happening.
(36:44):
And I was kind of like rewindingmy life, but like going through
it, then watching myself die. And then I'm in the like the
above and between. And I'm thinking about what I
learned from that lifetime. Oh well.
So yeah. So I had to.
You kind of saw the whole like, yes, cycle of like.
And then I analyzed the life andI'm like, well, I was alone in
(37:06):
the end in that one, and I was alone in the end in this one.
So what did I learn? How?
My life fear it's going to be. All about friendships.
It's going to be all about connecting with people, lovers,
friends. Like I'm going to have a rich
life full of people. So it really did something.
But it was very intense. And those lives were very
intense. Yeah, very intense.
(37:28):
Yeah, yeah, it is wild to kind of feel I feel things in your
present life. So specific to this past life
stuff. It was weird, yeah.
Do you feel like in this lifetime, you have a sense,
Kayla, of like who you'd who you're becoming because of
because I for me, it's like certain lessons of pass through,
(37:49):
you know, And so I'm curious foryou if there's anything.
I think I was maybe a little bittoo trusting in past life.
And yeah, I think that's one of the lessons I, I need to learn
in this life is to, yeah, I guess, you know, be a little bit
(38:18):
more discerning, discerning, yeah, with people that I let
into my life because I think in my past life it maybe led to my
downfall a little bit so. Me too, with these like dark
men. Like this dark man, I let in
over and over and over. And I think I was even maybe
(38:40):
like queer in a couple of them, but it was just part of this
like, self-destructive tendency.Where I was.
Couldn't be out and that I think.
Felt very self-destructive. Yeah, very, very.
Part of the reason I love talking and thinking about past
lives, whether or not it's true or not, Whether.
Or not, when it's all like technically happening at the
same time. That's what a lot of people
(39:02):
believe who are in that. But it's just a way for humans
to be really empathetic, to put themselves in another person's
shoes, to be like, Oh my God, I was a man in China, like right,
50 years ago. I I was like a woman in medieval
Europe during. The war, he's like.
I was a witch, right? That I definitely know.
(39:23):
Totally. I was, I think I was a witch in
one of mine. I got into Wicca in high school,
but yeah, so I don't know. I think it's also a way to just
imagine other ways of being and like that that can create some
kind of opening up in US. Yeah, an understanding or
something? Well, I mean, we can only hope,
yeah. With our own selves.
Well, I think too, there's that idea of like ancestors, and I
(39:47):
think we have ancestors for our body and then we have ancestors
for our past lives. I feel more of the past lives
than the than the family I live with.
I love my parents and I'm connected to my family, but in
terms of history, I don't feel, I feel like I'm like an outlier
in my family. I don't know why.
When I I think from what I understand people can
(40:09):
reincarnate with certain family members like through multiple
lifetimes. Like, I know my dad was my dad
in Paris when I was a can can dancer, but then I was his mom
and he was my daughter when I was like, Oh yeah, there.
Are those? Roles.
I was like an indigenous woman in like kind of Mexico, Arizona
(40:33):
area. And I was a really bad mom, you
know, So there was this like flipping of, you know, roles and
like we both were shitty to one another as children.
And so this lifetime, I kind of found this out like right after,
right before he died, like was about clearing that karma of
like, this is what it's like to be in the other shoe.
(40:54):
And just, you know, and I've heard the theory that like,
really you attract the negative karma because you feel guilt,
not because of any judgement that the universe feels like it
has to punish you, but it's likeyou feel like you deserve it
because you did the bad thing inthe past life.
And so you're like, I want to heal from that.
So you get these like correctiveexperiences.
(41:16):
Wow. Interesting.
Yeah. Or you want retribution.
Like you're like, I want to do that over and get this
motherfucker or you know, whatever.
But. I mean, yeah, part of me thinks
we're like an experiment on thisplanet by.
Another species like we're not. Even like, I don't even know if
(41:36):
I'm from here, like. Part of me, I feel.
Very other, but that also could just be a symptom of being like
a cross cultural kid and growingup in different places and never
feeling a part of anyone. That could be a part of it too.
I I definitely can relate to that feels kind of thing.
Yeah, a lot of people have that pneumatic or sort of different
(41:58):
experiences that then make them feel like they're, I don't know
if unique is the word, but not apart of a certain environment.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's definitely
true. Did you feel like making the
video, kind of thinking about and working through your
adoption, like helped heal or like what was that process like
(42:21):
for you? I've made AI mean I've made a
lot of my work is video work andI've made other videos that
talked about my adoption. But like, I think 'cause I was
just thinking about even like other performances like I that
I've created even a couple of years ago, like I still don't
(42:45):
fully know what The Who were about, you know?
And so I think, yeah, I think when I, I mean, similar to
probably like when you're, you know, doing these spells, it's
like I'm in a bit of a trance editing and just, it's like I'm
(43:09):
into a bunch of experiences and feelings.
And yeah, I guess hoping that itresonates in a certain way with
people. And if it doesn't, like that's
fine too, you know, because my work is super personal and, you
(43:31):
know, not everyone might relate or resonate with it.
But yeah, I think, I don't know.I think that is the mode that
I'm in when I'm making something, you know, is that I
am going into a little bit of a chance.
Yeah. So it's, if it's healing for
(43:51):
you, it feels healing. It may not be healing for anyone
else. It feels healing for me, yeah,
To, like, create something out of all this, like sound footage
that maybe wouldn't see the lifeof the light of day or, you
know. I think that's so much fun to be
enchanted by your own work, kindof, you know, to be in its
(44:12):
trance. Or just, yeah, like think about,
I, I, I don't know, like it's like we're, we're taking videos
of all these things all the time, you know, And I guess
thinking about, yeah, I don't know, I guess it's like a
(44:34):
digital collage of sorts and taking somebody on a bit of a
journey, you know, like when you're going through.
So yeah, I don't know. I guess that's the best way I
can explain it. Cool.
And so you have work up right now that people in LA could see.
(44:54):
Yeah, I work up at Angels Gate. I believe it's up till December
6th, yeah. What about you, Mulatto?
Do you have anything right now that people can?
Yeah. Speaking of a lot of deadlines,
today was a big deadline day. So 1 grant, 1 show, one
(45:15):
Commission, and you. Yeah.
That's a big day. It is a big day.
Yeah, I'm have a piece of painting that was saved from the
fire, gently restored and restretched, and it's quite an
interesting painting. I'm excited to be showing it at
the Philosophical Research Society.
So it's opening on Saturday. Cool.
(45:38):
And also have some of my talismans there.
Like your necklaces? Like the one I'm wearing now,
which? Is beautiful.
Yeah, Magic charms. They're they're magic.
Charms. I love it, it's so cute.
This. One's for creativity.
Oh nice. And those are for sale there.
Yeah, they're for sale. Oh cool.
Yeah, they're for sale. I've never really just sold
(45:59):
them. I kind of just would always give
them away. Then I realized at some point I
needed to like, sell some. I mean, it's a good idea, but
they're a great gift too, honestly.
Well, yeah, I mean, when you make your own stuff, it's like
so easy to be like, oh, I don't have a gift for you.
Here you are. And then you're like, well, I
need to. It's free funding for me.
Yeah. More so, therefore I should try,
(46:20):
yeah. And then may also show the the
show is called Bound in Affinityand it's related to alchemy.
So they may there may also be a film screening at some point
where my alchemy film might be aknot.
Cool. So yeah, love PRS.
Yeah, me too. It's a great institution.
Too. Yeah, yeah.
(46:40):
And then a show in New York nextmonth.
The group show. Oh cool, where at?
My friend Aaron is doing this crazy show in a house in Queens.
It's going to be like a private viewing.
It's very immersive, full on. So I have like 33 works on
paper. They're going to be installed in
a room. They're all eyes, you know,
(47:03):
we'll see how it goes. Cool.
I'm. Excited.
Yeah, that sounds great. I love a good like house show or
alternative viewing. Yeah, me too.
It's. Fun.
It's different, yeah. Very cool.
Well, thank you guys so much fortoday.
This was so amazing I'm. Glad we having us and.
Got into it. You know we.
Got just quick as usual. And that's just go off, yeah.
(47:29):
Oh please, anytime, yeah, if youhave any ghost stories or
anything before we wrap up. So many, so many.
But like, well, longer Kayla. I'll have a.
Quick one. Yeah, go.
To I already told. One, So my dear friend Beverly
passed away a couple of years ago and I went to work.
(47:50):
I was working, I was dancing at the time, but I was also working
at a bar, cocktail waitressing. And I mean, I really shouldn't
have been at work. So I was like, not in a good
place. And I, yeah, I was just really
disturbed. And a card like a credit card
(48:11):
like flew off the counter onto the floor.
And the name on it was Beverly. That was like, she's here, like
and it just, it just made me feel so much better.
Like, 'cause it just, it went freaky out at first, Yeah.
Like out of nowhere I just went flying.
She's here like she's. She's got her eye.
(48:32):
On you and it was yeah. And then, you know, other things
kind of like that happened. And my roommate at the time was
also really close with her. And she had several things
happen, like lights kind of turning on and like cupboards
opening, like things like that. And we'd always be like boobs
here. And yeah.
And yeah, she she comes up a lotin my mind.
(48:57):
Yeah, she done any like dream visitations or anything dream
Have you guys ever had that where you had like a family
member or. Something my my dog visited me
in my dream after she passed. Yeah, and.
What did she say? She was just laying next to me.
I know. It felt so real.
Oh yeah. But I yeah, the dream is very
(49:19):
random. I feel like that's more random
than the premonitions. Just kind of.
Yeah, what about the premonition?
Waking premonitions happen more often than dream.
Oh, interesting. Same.
Does that happen to you too? Well, I had the one before, like
before I left where I was like, oh, you know that that electric
cord Outback looks a little sketchy.
(49:39):
I should probably mention it to my landlord or my neighbor.
I don't want to fire. Didn't think of it.
And then I was like, I got too busy and I went away.
It didn't happen that way, but it was.
Just. Like a thing.
In the fire, yeah. Oh my God, but you could be
permanent every day like I have.That is true.
Who like never will leave the house without checking the iron
(49:59):
and the stove like five times. So you don't want it to be OCD?
So yeah. Yeah, one could very easily go
that way, especially. If you get.
Anxious happened to you? Yeah.
I'm trying not to let it get like that, but but it can be
interesting when you sort through when to listen and when
to ignore. That's the big thing, right?
(50:21):
That is the journey. If you're slightly psychic, it's
like, when is it anxiety? When is it actually good advice
from your guides or whatever? Yeah.
Very well put. Really have to sit with it, say
OK, excuse me, Yeah. Is this something I need to
know? Are you just a distraction or is
this something I need to pay attention?
To well, so Kayla, what was yours that you had?
(50:43):
My premonition. Yeah.
Or what are some of them that you get?
I this is really weird and also like I do not call myself a
matchmaker but I have match madepeople because.
I have too 1. Time I heard I was talking to a
friend of mine and I heard another friend of mine's laugh
(51:04):
in my head and I said, would yoube open to a blind date?
And he was like, yeah, Oh my God.
And I was like, I don't know whyI have this like my friends like
laugh. Just keep up in my head.
ANYWAYS, they dated for several years.
And it didn't. Last.
(51:25):
But you know, that was like, like stuff like that.
Happened pretty much just that. Very random.
And then that's happened to me multiple times where like I, I'm
at a party and I'm like, is it too much if I link you with a?
Friend. Of mine.
Amazing. Nothing.
I'm ever single again. I'm like, I'm going to just hang
(51:46):
out with you for a little bit, like we can try to.
I'm not trying to say. Introduce me to someone.
And it doesn't. We're going to hang out.
Literally doesn't always. Work out we're.
Going to make a spell painting about it.
What kind of help? Yeah, help me.
Who would you pay I. Don't know it's.
I'm. Always like I love that you're
like the love witch or something, but.
(52:08):
Not yeah. Your number is 555.
You can't access it. Like at you know I can't.
Right, all the time. No, it comes when it does.
Right. That's amazing, though.
That's. Kind of stuff that I think is
really funny. That's really funny.
That's very, that's a lot. That's a lot.
(52:28):
And we were sitting in a very love bar too, and it was crazy
than the music. And I was like, whoa, hold.
On a second, yeah, you got to pay attention.
Yeah, and right when he was talking, he was like, you know,
I'm single, I think I'm ready todate.
And that happened. And I was like, oh, wow, OK,
weird. But yeah, like I said, doesn't
happen regularly. I can't.
(52:49):
Just when you're meant to be theperson it does, I guess.
That's so like, I wouldn't do this for a living because I
would not consistently. That's the thing, it's like I
could. I wouldn't be able to, you know,
pay my bills or anything, right?I mean I I can read Tara for
other people, but for myself I can never understand.
It really does not help to read for myself.
(53:12):
I'd rather exchange with a friend.
I'm very good at reading for other people, not for myself.
Wow, Yeah. How do you feel about stuff like
that? I'm a little mixed.
Sometimes I'm good, you know? It's like when does when do your
guides want to give you the information?
Yeah, sometimes I misinterpret what I read and that's part of
the problem because I don't wantto see it or I'm just like
(53:34):
there's something, I'm obfuscating it.
Yeah. I think or you're meant to be
obfuscating because I had a reading this weekend because I
was like applying for jobs and I'm like, should I get the full
time job or like should I freelance it more and blah blah
blah. And I've been pulling reading
after reading and my guides I feel like are blocking my
(53:56):
ability to really read it clearly.
Like I'm getting like hints of of like what things mean, but
I'm not getting the clear download where sometimes I'm
like, boom. I'm like, like one time I knew I
was supposed to contact this artist residency in San
Francisco located near the dog patch.
Like I got like so much information like by the water,
(54:18):
blah, blah, blah. Like it was so specific.
And so I know that I can get that.
And so when I don't get it, I'm now realizing like they don't
want me to get it how I do. Prepare and get in that
headspace to download because I get in and out of being good at
that and I feel like there must be consistent ways to get in
that headspace to be open to. Messages, but like just to like
(54:40):
finish. Why I think it was deliberate is
because I went to this reading and even the two out of the
three cards were like murky. And he's like, oh, you're just
supposed to throw spaghetti at the wall right now and be
grateful that for what you have,But like, it's not really
supposed to be clear. And so I'm like, damn it, you
(55:01):
know, so like, I feel like sometimes it's supposed to be
unclear. But to answer your question, I
think to do it healthful, healthfully and not just like at
a bar where you're like a littlebit, it's a little crazy.
I think like being in your body,drinking enough water.
(55:21):
Deep breathing? No, but like channeling, do you
channel just with the cards or? No, that's what I'm saying.
It's like all those things I think help you be a better
channel. Whereas if you're like not in
your body and you get to in yourhead, that can quickly become
like a confusing for me. Like is it anxiety?
Is it channeling? And I get a little OCD and like,
(55:44):
I know that that's not it when I'm starting to get a little
obsessive. I can relate to that's.
Yeah, Yeah. I think when that happens, it's.
It's our very advanced or like Cortexes.
Yeah, like you get like a hint of it, but then there's a whole
block of like other information that's like fears and wishes
(56:04):
that kind of get in the way. They come in and mix things up.
Yeah, yeah. I'm constantly seeking ways to
channel more clearly. I find kundalini very helpful.
OK. Also I think like writing like
something that's like physically.
That's why I think the paintings.
Were. I think so too.
It's like. The physical can't lie as
easily. Even, like cleaning the studio,
(56:26):
like if I really am feeling, youknow, really ADHD and not
focused, I'm like, OK, I'm goingto sweep.
I'm going to prep for a project,but I'm not going to make
anything. And sometimes that helps my
brain. Yeah.
I like that decluttering good tips.
Yeah, yeah. All right.
(56:47):
Well, cool. Thank you guys so much.
This is super awesome. Thanks.
For having. Us where can people find you
just as like a last like Instagram, YouTube.
Instagram Kayla dot tongue is myhandle.
I'll put links in bio but. It's a lot of fencing web,
Instagram, Vimeo. Google.
(57:09):
All the Vimeo, Google me, Yeah, all the things.
All the things Instagram's probably the most current,
always. Just.
It's my little website, actuallykind of.
Oh, cool. You know, if you think about it,
you got the link tree. I mean, that's how I treat it.
It's the way that I have a website but it's like.
I don't use it enough, it's morelike an archive right now.
(57:29):
Exactly. That's what I was going to say.
Well, thank you guys so much. That's all for this week's
episode. Thank you so much for listening.
This was your host TiVo with sound editing help by Natasha
Lowey. If you love this episode, please
share it with a friend, write usa review and give us five stars
(57:49):
for good karma points. To watch along, subscribe to our
YouTube channel and see all of our videos and live top
recordings there. Thanks so much for listening.
See you next time on the side move.
Hello and welcome to the side Woo.
This is your host, Tebow, helping you navigate the wild
and mysterious path that is the creative life.
Join me as I ask our guests about the tools they use to help
them survive in the creative wilderness.
Leather pants. That'll do.
(00:33):
Good leather pants on the chair.OK, I'm going to have to make
sure. Wardrobe stuff.
Yeah, it's like. Like a squeaky shoe, which I
mean, crazy. I'm like, who is that?
Gilda Radner, where she has thatskit about going to the
interview and being like fart. Like she moves her chair and
(00:55):
she's talking, she's interviewing with some famous
news anchor at the time and it like makes a farting sound and
she's like, I swear to God, it was my chair.
And then she like they're like sure moves it around the stage
as she's telling the story to try to recreate that it was her
chair and it like never sounded the same that.
Sounds amazing. It was good.
Sounds funny. Yeah, I don't watch that now.
(01:15):
Well, welcome everybody. We have today 2 lovely guests,
Mulatto, Francine and Kayla. What's your last name again?
Tongue. Tongue welcome.
Thanks for having us. Yeah.
Thank you. Yeah, the podcast idea
originated at the studio visit where I met Kayla for the first
time. Because we started talking and
(01:37):
all these like synchronicities came up where we'll get into it.
But I felt like this needs to berecorded and given to the world
because like, useful gems were coming up in the conversation.
That was really fun. That was really fun.
We'll attempt to recreate, but every conversation's a little
different. Yeah, and it's an eclipse in
like 3 hours, so who knows what's going to come up today.
(02:00):
That is true. I'm feeling a little
scatterbrained. Me too.
Yeah, OK. And I'm the opposite.
I spent all day at like applyingfor things and.
So you feel really clear. Headed I like really organized
today. Wow.
I don't know why that's good. At least one of us.
Exactly. But yeah, we were talking about
how it's like hitting our chart differently.
(02:21):
So I guess to start, what are your sun signs?
I'm a Gemini sun sign. OK.
I'm in Aries. Aries And do you know, I think
it's I mean, we should just lookit up, but I think it's in
Pisces today the the lunar eclipse trying to figure out
like where, where in our chart that was going to hit, which I
(02:47):
honestly don't know. I kind of want to look it up.
All I know is I had like 4 deadlines today and it's been
really busy and I want to feel accomplished after today and be
like let go of all those things that I just finished.
Move on. Yes, decompress.
Decompress after a busy chapter filling up to the full moon.
(03:10):
Yeah, yeah. Now it's released after today.
I tried to do several things andwas very scatter print.
Yeah. But that's OK.
Yeah, Ditto. But a bit of a messiness.
That's OK. Yeah, it's in the sign of
Pisces. So do you know what your rising
(03:33):
sign is? My rising is in Taurus.
Scorpio. OK, so Pisces would be, I'm
Scorpio too. So for us it's like 5th or 4th
house or maybe 6th. And then for you it would be
like 10th, 11th, 12th house. Does that mean less important
(03:56):
when it's the house number? It's just where it is.
Yeah, it's just where it is. And then, like, I think there is
a relationship between like the self, how you interact with your
family, how you interact with like your partnerships, and then
how do you interact with the world at large And like
different parts of your chart operate that way.
(04:16):
It's kind of like, yeah, going from self and then expanding
outward. OK, got it.
So meeting her later house, it'sshowing up there may mean it's
more about the social aspect andfor us it's maybe more internal.
Oh. Yeah, like Taurus would.
If you're doing a whole house, it would be like your 11th
(04:38):
house. OK, so it's farther away then?
No. Or just that's the House of like
social connections and like groups and I don't know.
So here we are talking to your social community of artists.
I don't know. I've been pretty social lately.
Oh, have you? Yeah, your openings that you
(04:58):
had, you had some things going on.
It was really good. It was really fun.
Yeah. I love Angels Gate and the other
places art fair was happening atthe same time so I.
Did you have a piece at the other?
Yeah, I had a piece at Angels Gate for the method show.
What is it? For.
It's called Method and the IT was a juried show by Kira
(05:25):
Zonarika and it was partnered with a super Collider, so it was
a lot of like art and tech. What was it part of PST?
It was. Specific.
Standard. Time part of PST officially, but
I think it was it was similarly themed, timed.
(05:46):
Similarly timed. Yeah, cool.
That's awesome. What did you put in the show?
I put in my video sculpture called Case Number and it was
about my adoption had contained adoption documents and that was
like a piece I was kind of thinking about when we were
(06:08):
earlier talking about intentional spells and kind of
intentions. We make a piece like I had a
bunch of materials that I wasn'tsure what to do with, but I knew
I wanted to have a certain feeling.
And so I was like, when I was editing this video, I was trying
(06:31):
to achieve a certain feeling of this journey that I personally
went on, you know, starting withmy adoption.
And then I was a sex worker for many years.
And then I, I ended up getting very sick for the past couple
(06:51):
years. And so I was trying to take
pieces from my childhood videos and videos of me dancing and
performing and I had footage of after my surgeries of my body.
And so I was trying to, yeah, I don't know, capture some sort of
(07:15):
feeling. And I wasn't really sure what it
was at the time, but I was thinking in hindsight how I was
trying to capture a lot of joy, but also a lot of grief.
And so, yeah, I think that was something I'm curious to know if
you, because we were talking about the intention in the
beginning of and how that yeah, yeah.
(07:38):
And the difference between like the intention from the beginning
or the intention from the end orintention of emotion or yeah.
Well, that's cool. Yeah.
I mean, so the reason we startedtalking about it was I have a
bunch of paintings up in my studio right now that are for a
studio visit. And it's part of my Spells
(07:59):
series, which I, for each painting, like have an intention
for the painting, whether it's like a spell to heal fear of
rejection or, you know, a spell for queer romance or, you know,
and the intention is that at thebeginning.
And then I kind of let the imagery, like, take itself over.
(08:20):
But then from there, it's like, I don't know what's going to
come out. I don't know how it's going to
finish. And I actually, you know, don't
really know if it's going to affect people the way I want,
you know, And I've heard of other artists like Mulatto.
It sounds like you've worked in a similar way for a series.
(08:40):
But I think that all artists arelike, in all craters are in some
ways casting a spell. But it's like, how intentional
are they being? And is that actually what the
outcome is like what you were saying?
Images are definitely magic, andI think we have to be careful
what we put out in the world, for sure.
(09:01):
But also they are kind of conjuring, right, just by the
nature of like the act of doing.Yeah, absolutely.
I think it's beautiful. And I know, I mean, I know for
me, like I wanted to try out oneof my paintings.
So I like remember sitting and meditating in front of it and
like partly I'm getting healing while I'm making them.
(09:22):
But then I was like, OK, let me see if this is like a way to use
the painting because if I'm going to be like selling them to
someone, it'd be nice to know ifthey actually function that way.
And so I kind of meditated in front of it and I did get some
ideas around the thing that I wanted.
But like the painting was about clarity and I was did kind of
(09:44):
help me crystallize some of my thoughts.
But I mean. Yeah, that was similar.
I can relate because with my magic series, I would meditate
and enter a certain almost like channelled state, hypnotic
state. And they were they were kind of
specific to some during the course of painting became more
(10:04):
apparent what they were about and others really were like I
did layer like sacred geometry and magic symbols and then them
and like, you know, in differentways.
Like 1 was a house busing. I had a love charm and that one,
you know, a few of them, like I feel like they worked, like I
put them out in the world and they did that function.
Like did people buy the paintingand then tell you like how I
(10:27):
found someone? Yes, I found someone.
I put it up on my own bedroom wall and then I immediately met
someone. We were together for five years.
Did you? Tell the.
Person that that was the intention.
Yeah, it's a love charm and that's why he wanted it.
Well, and when I had it in the show, I'd met a man at that
opening, actually. So it's definitely working.
I moved to. California with him, but.
It worked with other people. Yes, it worked with other
(10:48):
people, that's what I'm saying. The five year relationship was
for my friend who bought it. Oh, I thought it was for you.
No. Oh, they were self telling you
like I did this. That's.
So I really like that whole series was really kind of wild.
That's super cool. I mean, that's what I want with
these, but it's like I haven't put them up anywhere in the
public. To make like really, really,
(11:08):
really dark. I mean, I understand dark, I
understand sad. But like, if you're putting it
out there, like what are you conjuring?
Yeah, I agree with that to a certain extent to.
A certain extent. Not that I don't put difficult
work out in the world, but. Right.
It sounds like people can feel that.
They can feel. I do.
(11:29):
I really do, because I mean, there's so many artists that
I've just not known anything about them and was just really
attracted to, you know, the workfor whatever reason.
So I mean, I, I do think that people can feel that and sense
that. And I and I think artist behind
it, yeah. Yeah, exactly like they're I've
(11:51):
been. Friends with artists because I
just was like, who is this yes person's work?
Like, I need to know this person, you know?
And I've literally. Yeah.
Have made friends that way. Yeah.
And that's really cool. Yeah.
I love. That well, and there's so much
art out there that there is inevitably going to be things
(12:11):
that are similar. And so you do always wonder,
like, why the one painting over the other when people are making
the same work essentially? And it's like, are people
actually responding to the energy with which the work is
being made? Yeah.
Yeah, or the intention or something about that specific
artist that's like resonating more.
(12:33):
It's hard to know like if there's like a magic formula or
if you just happen to cross something or you know, because
there's no real accounting for taste.
All of our taste is like really unique so.
Or if you're like, energeticallydrawing those people, yeah.
Yeah. Well, I know, you know, there is
a period when I was like really career focused and really trying
(12:57):
to get ahead in a very like commercial way.
And I do think that attracted tome people who were going to use
me and lose me as an artist. Like it wasn't, I wasn't
attracting people who are like, let me invest in this artist
because she's got promise and ismaking work that changes lives.
It's more like, oh, cool, I can sell this girl like, and then if
(13:18):
she doesn't like I'm going to move on.
And I felt like, oh, I was like creating that through these
pieces, even though the work itself didn't look anything like
that. But it just that the mindset
that I was making them with, I feel like maybe was, I mean,
maybe was drawing people in thatwere like, yeah, like I'll agree
to that contract, you know? Interesting.
(13:39):
Yeah, yeah, maybe. Yeah.
Or like maybe we attract things and aren't specific enough.
Yeah, that too sometimes, because that's happened to me so
many times. OK, let's talk about it because
I think that is probably why we started talking and or not why
we started talking, but why I was like, oh, I think people
need to hear these stories because you both kind of made
(14:01):
these, like, proclamations of like, I want this from the
universe. And like a series of events kind
of happened that were kind of a gift, but like, they weren't
what you were really asking for.Yeah.
I think, I don't know, SometimesI think it's random, yeah.
Life happens and how we deal with it is really that's where
(14:21):
karma comes. In yeah, how we handle it, cause
also sometimes really horrible things happen and yeah.
And you don't see it. Can we both?
Dealt with that. We both dealt with that and I'm
like, OK, but did I? Did I deserve that?
Did that person deserve that? Did that person deserve like a
terminal illness? Like, are they a horrible
person? I don't fully buy that you know
(14:44):
either. I don't think karma is that
though. Is that how you view?
Like when you think of bad karma, do you feel like there's
like a judgement around it or not?
Necessarily not in maybe like a religious judgmental kind of
way. I, I yeah, I don't know.
I think it's short form in our culture for that.
(15:06):
Yes, totally. But like I think.
We can have a deeper conversation about it.
Yeah, like how you view it? Like what do you think of as
karma? Like what do you think?
Well, I think it's complicated because we live on a planet of
elements. We don't fully exist in a 5th or
6th dimension yet we're still 3 dimensional.
So even though I can imagine andsort of ideate around this idea
(15:28):
of like like transcending my mind and the physicality and
like harm like I think we're on a planet with elements.
So my experience fire I don't feel.
Like it was, Yeah, hold on. What do you mean by that?
Like we're on a planet with elements.
So like, what is that? Fire, earth, water.
(15:49):
Things happen. We are physical creatures.
Things happen to us. We're affected by the things we
take in our bodies, the things we breathe by the people around
us, environments we're in, by the elements.
Fire, Earth, air, water. And how does that connect to
your own personal karma, if you think you have one?
I don't know if it does exactly.I think that we're just, we're
(16:14):
little creatures on a planet that we're kind of thrown
around. I think karma is more, it comes
in like how you handle what lifehas given you because we all
have different challenges and each life is so unique.
So I think karma comes in when you're like, OK, how do I, can I
handle this graciously? Can I still be kind even though
(16:37):
I've gone through this thing? Or can I still, like, I don't
know, talk about it with someonein a way that is still open and
loving even though I've had all this hurt or this, whatever it
is that we've gone through physically or emotionally or
spiritually? I mean, I do think there's
strange things that line up and I don't know if it's karma, but
like, you know, for me personally, I was overworking
(17:01):
myself and I was burnt out for several years.
And I, you know, kept saying I'mgoing to take a break.
I'm going to take a break. It's going to happen.
Yeah, it's going to happen. But I just seen a few more
months to to just grind like this because this is like how
I'm going. To like in the near future, in
(17:23):
the near. Future.
But I can't. I don't know why I think.
We've all done that. I'm doing that right now.
I've been doing that for seven months.
Yeah, and then you just listen to you.
Just keep into the story. You just keep.
Grinding and it's actually crazy, especially because of the
Eclipse, because I wrote a letter to myself several months
ago that was I'll I'll explain. But yeah, so I was like, you
(17:45):
know, grinding and grinding and I kept literally seeing like
success over the horizon. And I just kept, you know,
thinking if I just agree to do this one more thing, this is
going to be it. This is going to be the thing.
And it just, it wasn't, I just, you know, got really sick and
(18:07):
then I ended up getting, you know, I having just major health
problems that put me in hospitaland I was dealing with, you
know, water mold issues that made me very sick on top of
that. And so, I mean, I couldn't
think. There was some days that my
brain fog was so bad that I could hardly send an e-mail, you
(18:29):
know, And it was really humbling.
And I don't want to say, oh, wow, that was such an amazing
lesson, you know, because it waspretty horrible.
Not a lie. Yeah.
I feel like it really set me back a couple years in my life,
you know? But at the same time, I I really
(18:50):
did prioritize my health becauseI was like the, you know, I
making work is really important to me.
And if I can't physically do it,then work will not get made, you
know? And so I had written this letter
(19:11):
to myself, I don't even know howmany months ago, maybe four
months ago, five months ago. And it was.
And for some reason I was supposed to open it like a month
ago, but for some reason I opened it today not even
realizing it was eclipse. And then it literally said you
need to slow down again, like you need to, yeah, chill out,
(19:34):
take care of yourself. Everything's gonna be there
still. That's what you wrote.
That's what I wrote. It was literally like, dear
self, you know everything. No, nothing's going anywhere.
You can slow down and take a breath.
There's no fire, you know, I mean, yeah, like, yeah.
(19:55):
Like I remember Haley Barker saying in her talk like there's
no, nothing's on fire. You know which we'll get to
Mulatto's story, but. That's.
This idea, metaphorically, there's nothing wrong that needs
to be taken care of. That's been a good lesson just
in terms of like, yeah, like a, you know, a timeline that's
external, like when people try to force you into these.
(20:17):
I mean, that's not to say you shouldn't meet deadlines.
No, no, Like if you've got a Commission or a grant due or
like a job application due, that's different.
It's different. But more just like, yeah,
personal timelines or like agreeing to things that are
going to push. You like, I need to have a, a
solo museum show by this age or else, you know, everything's
(20:37):
going to fall apart. It's like, well, that may not
happen and how are you going to deal with that if it doesn't?
I was so ready for Super Me. Yeah, I wrote in my journal
sketchbook. I do things like that, like
hopes or. I mean, I still do it, but.
Right before I left for Senegal in January, I wrote it's time
for my 30 year retrospective. I'm ready and I started laying
(20:58):
out how I would do that and all the different bodies of work.
And this was in January. Five days before the fire.
So OK, you were ready for your retrospective, but I feel like
you both had this like proclamation to the universe
where you're like universe like I need to.
Bring I've been working so far. In my.
Turn whatever. Can someone like, can I do
(21:21):
something that feels like a marker in my career, like I'm
ready for that? Yeah, I'm ready for.
That you. Were.
Like our SO and then? Unbelievable.
So you you like this in your journal and you were like, yeah,
I need a change. And then you went to Senegal for
a like a vacation. To spend time with my parents.
(21:43):
Yeah. And then I came back early
because there was a fire in my home and studio, so.
And like what happened? Basically a fire starred in a
neighbor's yard and somehow crossed through the foliage into
my room where I have my 30 year inventory of art.
Basically all my precious thingswere in that room.
So I came, you know, it took me two days to get back.
(22:06):
Luckily I have neighbors and friends helping, but the firemen
like they threw everything out of the room.
So when I came the room was empty.
And so all the art was in piles like in the yard mixed with like
my neighbors stuff throughout the window like total chaos.
Strange. So basically.
And some of your work burned, but not all of it.
Yeah, well, it's about 10 years of paintings, like bigger
(22:29):
paintings are gone because they were in front of that window.
But then the older work that I had shipped or that had been
still wrapped or in boxes was only partially damaged, like
some of my magic paintings from the 2012 area era and then some
of the landscapes from before. So it's a weird mix.
I have some work still and otherwork that needs attention.
(22:51):
And but I mean, the interesting thing is that you did get a
career boost in a way like you got a studio for the first time
ever. Well.
I had to because the work is so charred and smelly and needing
repair. But I do feel like when we
talked about it in your studio, there was like this silver
lining feeling like not that youwould have ever chosen it, but
(23:12):
like, we were like, you know, I,I got a studio because of it.
I got a show of this older work like you had one that was I.
Tend I tend to be someone who makes lemonade from lemons and
this these lemons are particularly bitter.
So in conversation I do add a lot of sugar, but to be honest
it's it's quite devastating. It still feels.
(23:34):
Right. Oh yeah.
Oh my God. Yeah, I know.
Yeah. But like I'm doing the best like
some paintings or have like interesting new shapes.
I kind of like them in their newin their new formats.
In your book. In my book, I'm working on a
book project. I feel like I like I'm
determined as a human to make purpose out of my tragedies or
(23:56):
my challenges. Like I feel like that's part of
my job as a human and as I feel the same.
Way. That's all we are here to do.
Totally weird feeling. And maybe it's help for someone
else, maybe it's not. Maybe it's just self help.
But like, I got to get through it and jump to the other side
and feel more rosy because I wake up happy every day.
I do throughout the day. I can get a little annoyed or in
(24:17):
traffic, or I can get. I can worry.
Overthink us, ladies. Overthink everything you.
Know. But that's standard human fare.
But like Around the Fire, are you feeling more like at peace
now that it's been I? Mean yeah, you know, I got a lot
done in the last seven months and I've been on kind of on a
very busy schedule. It's a lot more than just
(24:39):
dealing with the physical objects.
It's like insurance claim, lawsuit, legal aid, you know,
the housing department to see ifI can move back into my rent
control apartment. All these like layers and then
like cleaning what I have left like from a smoke remediation.
And then like I just stretched 3big canvases.
(24:59):
Like one of my closest girlfriends is a painter and she
said mulatto. Like you can't just keep working
on these old ones and trying to fix them and save them.
Like you also have to get back to painting.
So I've been doing drawings for a while but I finally stretched
3 and they're waiting for me so I'm really excited and I'm also
quite nervous because it feels like there is like this weird
(25:22):
marker in my brain now. About painting.
Pre and post or like what do I do with the iconography that's
all gone versus like the older work that I'm seeing around
which are my psychedelic landscapes and really relate to
you They're very different, but they're I really relate and so
now my work is leaning more intolandscapes because I'm looking
(25:44):
at the work so it's all kind of an adventure and we'll see you
know we'll. See.
Yeah, like who are you now? Who am I now?
I don't know yet. I mean, literally this came up.
I had a studio visit right before you guys came over and
that exact question came up and it came up in this other group
that I do. Who are you now?
Who am I? And I literally wrote a blog
(26:06):
post that that was the title of it.
Like who am I? I love your newsletter.
You do I. Really do.
It's so good when. Partly the question is like,
well, who am I Tone? Your heart me.
Too. All of it.
You. Yeah, I.
Read them. Yeah, I do too.
I get really excited about your Oh yeah, true.
Thank you. Well, I'll have to keep plugging
(26:26):
away because, you know, it's like.
It's touching. Yeah, it's a lot of Labor to do
it. Is, you know, I mean.
Which is why I have no newsletter.
Because you. Talked about that.
You want to get on that? Follow up I did she's.
Got to go, I know. But you know, there is a little
bit of workaholism happening andI think there is that carrot and
(26:46):
stick mentality of like successes around the corner and
it like it is what, like addicts.
Basically, maybe we're already there, Maybe we're already
there. What?
Well, what if there is no aroundthe corner, right?
Like the success it might be in the future.
But what that 1%? Of the art world.
(27:07):
Like who's going to be so lucky?Well, and just like, what can
you be grateful for in the moment?
Because that's all that's guaranteed.
At least we get something out ofour work.
And the reason I like the project that you're doing is
because it feels really healing and really cathartic.
And like, I actually believe that's one of art's greatest
powers is even if we end up withsomething that actually someone
(27:30):
else is like, oh, that just looks pretty.
You're like no to. Me, we don't know.
Deeper than that. Totally.
You never know, like what it's doing energetically or like what
it meant for that person to makeit.
You know, I try to think about that when I see work that I'm
like, well, that's not really like like my cup of tea.
But then I. Think about that too.
(27:51):
Even if it's not, you know, visually my taste, I do think
about materials, the time and, you know, their thought process
behind it and at least respect the labor that went, you know,
into. And the risk that it takes to be
an artist, you know, not everyone gives themselves
permission. Well, I think we're becoming a
(28:13):
more artistic culture and I never saw that coming with
technology. Like I have to say, you know,
maybe we should have seen that renaissance coming like with
social media, with Instagram being like a platform that art
is very prone to looking good inthat format.
You know, I think that almost, it's almost like we're creating
(28:35):
new generations of artistic minded more consciously.
I do, but maybe it's because I live in the tunnel of like all
my friends and followers, like in the art world.
Yeah, it's good. I'm not.
Connecting people who are all over the world.
But yeah, I wonder, is it makingpeople more creative like or
encouraging more creative? Maybe.
(28:57):
Maybe we're just graphically better able to sort through
image because we look through somuch.
Yeah. What catches your odd becomes
almost like what we work towards.
I mean, I feel, I feel like, youknow, I, I grew up with no cell
phones, no social media. We're I think we're all old
enough to. Fit that I mean, but my friends
(29:21):
and I. Were always.
Like staging, you know, installations or like photo
shoots and, and things. And I mean, I felt pretty
creative back then. And nobody sees, you know,
nobody saw the work, right? It's just like a handful of
people that were there. So yeah, I'm not.
I'm not, yeah, I'm not sure. I mean, I enjoy getting
(29:44):
inspired, you know, looking online for at other people's
work and yeah, like, I've met a lot of people.
I'm so grateful for it. Yeah, I.
I'm grateful for it too. I mean, I have my negative
feelings about it too. Ditto as we.
Should, and I feel a lot of pressure about posting all the
time, but. Yeah, yeah.
(30:06):
And what's your like, what do you guys have as kind of a
baseline for your like spiritualbelief system or, you know, not
necessarily religion, but like similar to karma, Like what is
it that you believe in that gives you some kind of like
grounding in our reality? I mean, even if it's just like
what you were saying, gratitude or, you know, writing personal
(30:30):
notes to yourself to send later.Feel like, I don't know, it's a
lot of different things over a lifetime.
Like when I was younger, maybe the influence was more cultures
around me or rituals that I would see that would sort of
enter. And where did you grow up?
When I was little in Senegal andMali in Western Africa, but my
(30:53):
parents home also, It's all African art.
It's all beautiful paintings of people of color.
It's all textiles and the jewelry.
I grew up with this even Africa.So everything is sort of, I'm
sort of saturated in that. And I realize now that's in my
memory bank, but it's also seeped into like my belief
system how I create magic symbols.
(31:15):
That. Makes sense and also ideation
around like spirits which I had.I have had a series of
encounters with them over my lifetime which are very powerful
and also in high school got veryinto.
And by spirit meditating ghosts.Yeah, I've had experiences with
(31:36):
the spirits that were ghosts or angelic beings several times.
Do you want to tell one of the stories I've?
Also had a near death experience.
I mean, which one do you want tosay first?
I'm like, let's get going. I don't know.
Or do you want to tell any of them I?
Don't know, but like even the house I'm in now when I first
moved in there, like I'm, I'm very sensitive to spaces and I
(31:58):
could tell there was an energy like a female energy just like
pacing the hallway in my home. And I, I invited a friend who's
a shaman to come and sage it anddo ritual because I felt like I
wasn't enough because it was, itwas my home.
Like I needed someone outside male energy to kind of clear
that. You needed like more or
sometimes. Affiliated with specific spaces,
(32:21):
but I've had yeah, one other time it was with.
And so how did this person, did they just say like, oh, hey,
your dad, you should go somewhere late?
Yeah, I mean, there's a whole ritual involved in his belief
system where there's salt in every corner, there's saging,
there was certain types of wordsspoken, there was addressing the
spirit itself. And then I also did some cord
(32:43):
cuttings with the Spirit, which I felt had kind of latched on to
me. It was a he.
It was a she. Oh yeah.
And it was someone who'd lived in that home for many years,
right? And I could feel them.
But I've also had visuals. I've also seen spirits.
So I don't know, like you kind of wonder is I've also had past
(33:03):
life progression, hypnosis, right?
Very specific. So I don't know.
I've had a lot of different things in my life.
Do you? Are you a ghost past life person
like. I, I, I'm kind of in a similar
boat. Like I've, I've tried a lot of
different modalities and I, I think since I was a kid, I was
(33:27):
always really sensitive to things, but I kind of didn't
really know what that meant or what that was like.
I mean, I grew up Buddhist and then my mom converted to
Christianity before she passed. And yeah, I think that was kind
(33:48):
of confusing for me. And then I, I wouldn't say I
practice any religion in my adult life, but I mean, I would
say I'm spiritual, you know, like I, I have had ghost
(34:09):
encounters with friends that have passed and I definitely
have had like, you know, dreams like premonitions about things
or just kind of a feeling. And yeah, I've had past life
regression sessions and Akashic records.
(34:31):
I've, I've met with several Korean shamans and have had,
yeah, interesting things. And then, you know, what are
some of your past life? I was told that I brought dark
entities back from me or back from Korea when I came back in
2011. I was a sex worker in past life.
(34:54):
That was one of them, and I diedalone.
Just I mean same. You know.
Yeah, where were you? Do you?
Remember, it felt like kind of, I don't know, like the West
somewhere, like, like the kind of Wild West, yeah.
I think I owned a saloon as a mad, like I was the head of this
(35:18):
like saloon. Wow.
And I was the Madam. And then in a different life I
had been like a can can dancer turned sex worker.
But I think in the Wild West oneI was like the Madam, but I
still got into trouble and endedup getting like murdered or
something. Is it?
Is it a fascination? Yes. 100.
(35:40):
Percent. I collect like Wild West books.
About. About like.
No, I'm actually like, like I'vealways been like EW, because I
think because I've had these badpast lives that I've kind of
like backed away from certain things, which.
I think maybe I maybe I, I mean,even though it was not a
positive past life, I think I maybe I romanticize it a little
(36:03):
bit. Probably healthy to be excited
about it rather than. Yeah, my most recent recent past
life was in China and I was man and I was in it was probably
over 100 years ago kind of guessing by the the spaces I was
in and. Oh, when you were doing the
regression? It was very specific.
I mean, I could smell and feel things.
(36:24):
I was walking around basically in the past life regression.
I was in that body and it would zoom forward from a small age
toward the next age. And it would just, I would just
have the recollection when a related event or important part
of that life that needed to be addressed was happening.
(36:44):
And I was kind of like rewindingmy life, but like going through
it, then watching myself die. And then I'm in the like the
above and between. And I'm thinking about what I
learned from that lifetime. Oh well.
So yeah. So I had to.
You kind of saw the whole like, yes, cycle of like.
And then I analyzed the life andI'm like, well, I was alone in
(37:06):
the end in that one, and I was alone in the end in this one.
So what did I learn? How?
My life fear it's going to be. All about friendships.
It's going to be all about connecting with people, lovers,
friends. Like I'm going to have a rich
life full of people. So it really did something.
But it was very intense. And those lives were very
intense. Yeah, very intense.
(37:28):
Yeah, yeah, it is wild to kind of feel I feel things in your
present life. So specific to this past life
stuff. It was weird, yeah.
Do you feel like in this lifetime, you have a sense,
Kayla, of like who you'd who you're becoming because of
because I for me, it's like certain lessons of pass through,
(37:49):
you know, And so I'm curious foryou if there's anything.
I think I was maybe a little bittoo trusting in past life.
And yeah, I think that's one of the lessons I, I need to learn
in this life is to, yeah, I guess, you know, be a little bit
(38:18):
more discerning, discerning, yeah, with people that I let
into my life because I think in my past life it maybe led to my
downfall a little bit so. Me too, with these like dark
men. Like this dark man, I let in
over and over and over. And I think I was even maybe
(38:40):
like queer in a couple of them, but it was just part of this
like, self-destructive tendency.Where I was.
Couldn't be out and that I think.
Felt very self-destructive. Yeah, very, very.
Part of the reason I love talking and thinking about past
lives, whether or not it's true or not, Whether.
Or not, when it's all like technically happening at the
same time. That's what a lot of people
(39:02):
believe who are in that. But it's just a way for humans
to be really empathetic, to put themselves in another person's
shoes, to be like, Oh my God, I was a man in China, like right,
50 years ago. I I was like a woman in medieval
Europe during. The war, he's like.
I was a witch, right? That I definitely know.
(39:23):
Totally. I was, I think I was a witch in
one of mine. I got into Wicca in high school,
but yeah, so I don't know. I think it's also a way to just
imagine other ways of being and like that that can create some
kind of opening up in US. Yeah, an understanding or
something? Well, I mean, we can only hope,
yeah. With our own selves.
Well, I think too, there's that idea of like ancestors, and I
(39:47):
think we have ancestors for our body and then we have ancestors
for our past lives. I feel more of the past lives
than the than the family I live with.
I love my parents and I'm connected to my family, but in
terms of history, I don't feel, I feel like I'm like an outlier
in my family. I don't know why.
When I I think from what I understand people can
(40:09):
reincarnate with certain family members like through multiple
lifetimes. Like, I know my dad was my dad
in Paris when I was a can can dancer, but then I was his mom
and he was my daughter when I was like, Oh yeah, there.
Are those? Roles.
I was like an indigenous woman in like kind of Mexico, Arizona
(40:33):
area. And I was a really bad mom, you
know, So there was this like flipping of, you know, roles and
like we both were shitty to one another as children.
And so this lifetime, I kind of found this out like right after,
right before he died, like was about clearing that karma of
like, this is what it's like to be in the other shoe.
(40:54):
And just, you know, and I've heard the theory that like,
really you attract the negative karma because you feel guilt,
not because of any judgement that the universe feels like it
has to punish you, but it's likeyou feel like you deserve it
because you did the bad thing inthe past life.
And so you're like, I want to heal from that.
So you get these like correctiveexperiences.
(41:16):
Wow. Interesting.
Yeah. Or you want retribution.
Like you're like, I want to do that over and get this
motherfucker or you know, whatever.
But. I mean, yeah, part of me thinks
we're like an experiment on thisplanet by.
Another species like we're not. Even like, I don't even know if
(41:36):
I'm from here, like. Part of me, I feel.
Very other, but that also could just be a symptom of being like
a cross cultural kid and growingup in different places and never
feeling a part of anyone. That could be a part of it too.
I I definitely can relate to that feels kind of thing.
Yeah, a lot of people have that pneumatic or sort of different
(41:58):
experiences that then make them feel like they're, I don't know
if unique is the word, but not apart of a certain environment.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's definitely
true. Did you feel like making the
video, kind of thinking about and working through your
adoption, like helped heal or like what was that process like
(42:21):
for you? I've made AI mean I've made a
lot of my work is video work andI've made other videos that
talked about my adoption. But like, I think 'cause I was
just thinking about even like other performances like I that
I've created even a couple of years ago, like I still don't
(42:45):
fully know what The Who were about, you know?
And so I think, yeah, I think when I, I mean, similar to
probably like when you're, you know, doing these spells, it's
like I'm in a bit of a trance editing and just, it's like I'm
(43:09):
into a bunch of experiences and feelings.
And yeah, I guess hoping that itresonates in a certain way with
people. And if it doesn't, like that's
fine too, you know, because my work is super personal and, you
(43:31):
know, not everyone might relate or resonate with it.
But yeah, I think, I don't know.I think that is the mode that
I'm in when I'm making something, you know, is that I
am going into a little bit of a chance.
Yeah. So it's, if it's healing for
(43:51):
you, it feels healing. It may not be healing for anyone
else. It feels healing for me, yeah,
To, like, create something out of all this, like sound footage
that maybe wouldn't see the lifeof the light of day or, you
know. I think that's so much fun to be
enchanted by your own work, kindof, you know, to be in its
(44:12):
trance. Or just, yeah, like think about,
I, I, I don't know, like it's like we're, we're taking videos
of all these things all the time, you know, And I guess
thinking about, yeah, I don't know, I guess it's like a
(44:34):
digital collage of sorts and taking somebody on a bit of a
journey, you know, like when you're going through.
So yeah, I don't know. I guess that's the best way I
can explain it. Cool.
And so you have work up right now that people in LA could see.
(44:54):
Yeah, I work up at Angels Gate. I believe it's up till December
6th, yeah. What about you, Mulatto?
Do you have anything right now that people can?
Yeah. Speaking of a lot of deadlines,
today was a big deadline day. So 1 grant, 1 show, one
(45:15):
Commission, and you. Yeah.
That's a big day. It is a big day.
Yeah, I'm have a piece of painting that was saved from the
fire, gently restored and restretched, and it's quite an
interesting painting. I'm excited to be showing it at
the Philosophical Research Society.
So it's opening on Saturday. Cool.
(45:38):
And also have some of my talismans there.
Like your necklaces? Like the one I'm wearing now,
which? Is beautiful.
Yeah, Magic charms. They're they're magic.
Charms. I love it, it's so cute.
This. One's for creativity.
Oh nice. And those are for sale there.
Yeah, they're for sale. Oh cool.
Yeah, they're for sale. I've never really just sold
(45:59):
them. I kind of just would always give
them away. Then I realized at some point I
needed to like, sell some. I mean, it's a good idea, but
they're a great gift too, honestly.
Well, yeah, I mean, when you make your own stuff, it's like
so easy to be like, oh, I don't have a gift for you.
Here you are. And then you're like, well, I
need to. It's free funding for me.
Yeah. More so, therefore I should try,
(46:20):
yeah. And then may also show the the
show is called Bound in Affinityand it's related to alchemy.
So they may there may also be a film screening at some point
where my alchemy film might be aknot.
Cool. So yeah, love PRS.
Yeah, me too. It's a great institution.
Too. Yeah, yeah.
(46:40):
And then a show in New York nextmonth.
The group show. Oh cool, where at?
My friend Aaron is doing this crazy show in a house in Queens.
It's going to be like a private viewing.
It's very immersive, full on. So I have like 33 works on
paper. They're going to be installed in
a room. They're all eyes, you know,
(47:03):
we'll see how it goes. Cool.
I'm. Excited.
Yeah, that sounds great. I love a good like house show or
alternative viewing. Yeah, me too.
It's. Fun.
It's different, yeah. Very cool.
Well, thank you guys so much fortoday.
This was so amazing I'm. Glad we having us and.
Got into it. You know we.
Got just quick as usual. And that's just go off, yeah.
(47:29):
Oh please, anytime, yeah, if youhave any ghost stories or
anything before we wrap up. So many, so many.
But like, well, longer Kayla. I'll have a.
Quick one. Yeah, go.
To I already told. One, So my dear friend Beverly
passed away a couple of years ago and I went to work.
(47:50):
I was working, I was dancing at the time, but I was also working
at a bar, cocktail waitressing. And I mean, I really shouldn't
have been at work. So I was like, not in a good
place. And I, yeah, I was just really
disturbed. And a card like a credit card
(48:11):
like flew off the counter onto the floor.
And the name on it was Beverly. That was like, she's here, like
and it just, it just made me feel so much better.
Like, 'cause it just, it went freaky out at first, Yeah.
Like out of nowhere I just went flying.
She's here like she's. She's got her eye.
(48:32):
On you and it was yeah. And then, you know, other things
kind of like that happened. And my roommate at the time was
also really close with her. And she had several things
happen, like lights kind of turning on and like cupboards
opening, like things like that. And we'd always be like boobs
here. And yeah.
And yeah, she she comes up a lotin my mind.
(48:57):
Yeah, she done any like dream visitations or anything dream
Have you guys ever had that where you had like a family
member or. Something my my dog visited me
in my dream after she passed. Yeah, and.
What did she say? She was just laying next to me.
I know. It felt so real.
Oh yeah. But I yeah, the dream is very
(49:19):
random. I feel like that's more random
than the premonitions. Just kind of.
Yeah, what about the premonition?
Waking premonitions happen more often than dream.
Oh, interesting. Same.
Does that happen to you too? Well, I had the one before, like
before I left where I was like, oh, you know that that electric
cord Outback looks a little sketchy.
(49:39):
I should probably mention it to my landlord or my neighbor.
I don't want to fire. Didn't think of it.
And then I was like, I got too busy and I went away.
It didn't happen that way, but it was.
Just. Like a thing.
In the fire, yeah. Oh my God, but you could be
permanent every day like I have.That is true.
Who like never will leave the house without checking the iron
(49:59):
and the stove like five times. So you don't want it to be OCD?
So yeah. Yeah, one could very easily go
that way, especially. If you get.
Anxious happened to you? Yeah.
I'm trying not to let it get like that, but but it can be
interesting when you sort through when to listen and when
to ignore. That's the big thing, right?
(50:21):
That is the journey. If you're slightly psychic, it's
like, when is it anxiety? When is it actually good advice
from your guides or whatever? Yeah.
Very well put. Really have to sit with it, say
OK, excuse me, Yeah. Is this something I need to
know? Are you just a distraction or is
this something I need to pay attention?
To well, so Kayla, what was yours that you had?
(50:43):
My premonition. Yeah.
Or what are some of them that you get?
I this is really weird and also like I do not call myself a
matchmaker but I have match madepeople because.
I have too 1. Time I heard I was talking to a
friend of mine and I heard another friend of mine's laugh
(51:04):
in my head and I said, would yoube open to a blind date?
And he was like, yeah, Oh my God.
And I was like, I don't know whyI have this like my friends like
laugh. Just keep up in my head.
ANYWAYS, they dated for several years.
And it didn't. Last.
(51:25):
But you know, that was like, like stuff like that.
Happened pretty much just that. Very random.
And then that's happened to me multiple times where like I, I'm
at a party and I'm like, is it too much if I link you with a?
Friend. Of mine.
Amazing. Nothing.
I'm ever single again. I'm like, I'm going to just hang
(51:46):
out with you for a little bit, like we can try to.
I'm not trying to say. Introduce me to someone.
And it doesn't. We're going to hang out.
Literally doesn't always. Work out we're.
Going to make a spell painting about it.
What kind of help? Yeah, help me.
Who would you pay I. Don't know it's.
I'm. Always like I love that you're
like the love witch or something, but.
(52:08):
Not yeah. Your number is 555.
You can't access it. Like at you know I can't.
Right, all the time. No, it comes when it does.
Right. That's amazing, though.
That's. Kind of stuff that I think is
really funny. That's really funny.
That's very, that's a lot. That's a lot.
(52:28):
And we were sitting in a very love bar too, and it was crazy
than the music. And I was like, whoa, hold.
On a second, yeah, you got to pay attention.
Yeah, and right when he was talking, he was like, you know,
I'm single, I think I'm ready todate.
And that happened. And I was like, oh, wow, OK,
weird. But yeah, like I said, doesn't
happen regularly. I can't.
(52:49):
Just when you're meant to be theperson it does, I guess.
That's so like, I wouldn't do this for a living because I
would not consistently. That's the thing, it's like I
could. I wouldn't be able to, you know,
pay my bills or anything, right?I mean I I can read Tara for
other people, but for myself I can never understand.
It really does not help to read for myself.
(53:12):
I'd rather exchange with a friend.
I'm very good at reading for other people, not for myself.
Wow, Yeah. How do you feel about stuff like
that? I'm a little mixed.
Sometimes I'm good, you know? It's like when does when do your
guides want to give you the information?
Yeah, sometimes I misinterpret what I read and that's part of
the problem because I don't wantto see it or I'm just like
(53:34):
there's something, I'm obfuscating it.
Yeah. I think or you're meant to be
obfuscating because I had a reading this weekend because I
was like applying for jobs and I'm like, should I get the full
time job or like should I freelance it more and blah blah
blah. And I've been pulling reading
after reading and my guides I feel like are blocking my
(53:56):
ability to really read it clearly.
Like I'm getting like hints of of like what things mean, but
I'm not getting the clear download where sometimes I'm
like, boom. I'm like, like one time I knew I
was supposed to contact this artist residency in San
Francisco located near the dog patch.
Like I got like so much information like by the water,
(54:18):
blah, blah, blah. Like it was so specific.
And so I know that I can get that.
And so when I don't get it, I'm now realizing like they don't
want me to get it how I do. Prepare and get in that
headspace to download because I get in and out of being good at
that and I feel like there must be consistent ways to get in
that headspace to be open to. Messages, but like just to like
(54:40):
finish. Why I think it was deliberate is
because I went to this reading and even the two out of the
three cards were like murky. And he's like, oh, you're just
supposed to throw spaghetti at the wall right now and be
grateful that for what you have,But like, it's not really
supposed to be clear. And so I'm like, damn it, you
(55:01):
know, so like, I feel like sometimes it's supposed to be
unclear. But to answer your question, I
think to do it healthful, healthfully and not just like at
a bar where you're like a littlebit, it's a little crazy.
I think like being in your body,drinking enough water.
(55:21):
Deep breathing? No, but like channeling, do you
channel just with the cards or? No, that's what I'm saying.
It's like all those things I think help you be a better
channel. Whereas if you're like not in
your body and you get to in yourhead, that can quickly become
like a confusing for me. Like is it anxiety?
Is it channeling? And I get a little OCD and like,
(55:44):
I know that that's not it when I'm starting to get a little
obsessive. I can relate to that's.
Yeah, Yeah. I think when that happens, it's.
It's our very advanced or like Cortexes.
Yeah, like you get like a hint of it, but then there's a whole
block of like other information that's like fears and wishes
(56:04):
that kind of get in the way. They come in and mix things up.
Yeah, yeah. I'm constantly seeking ways to
channel more clearly. I find kundalini very helpful.
OK. Also I think like writing like
something that's like physically.
That's why I think the paintings.
Were. I think so too.
It's like. The physical can't lie as
easily. Even, like cleaning the studio,
(56:26):
like if I really am feeling, youknow, really ADHD and not
focused, I'm like, OK, I'm goingto sweep.
I'm going to prep for a project,but I'm not going to make
anything. And sometimes that helps my
brain. Yeah.
I like that decluttering good tips.
Yeah, yeah. All right.
(56:47):
Well, cool. Thank you guys so much.
This is super awesome. Thanks.
For having. Us where can people find you
just as like a last like Instagram, YouTube.
Instagram Kayla dot tongue is myhandle.
I'll put links in bio but. It's a lot of fencing web,
Instagram, Vimeo. Google.
(57:09):
All the Vimeo, Google me, Yeah, all the things.
All the things Instagram's probably the most current,
always. Just.
It's my little website, actuallykind of.
Oh, cool. You know, if you think about it,
you got the link tree. I mean, that's how I treat it.
It's the way that I have a website but it's like.
I don't use it enough, it's morelike an archive right now.
(57:29):
Exactly. That's what I was going to say.
Well, thank you guys so much. That's all for this week's
episode. Thank you so much for listening.
This was your host TiVo with sound editing help by Natasha
Lowey. If you love this episode, please
share it with a friend, write usa review and give us five stars
(57:49):
for good karma points. To watch along, subscribe to our
YouTube channel and see all of our videos and live top
recordings there. Thanks so much for listening.
See you next time on the side move.
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