September 12, 2025 • 21 mins
This week's episode was recorded and broadcasted live from the Axel Contemporary Truck onto Radio Tomada in Santa Fe. Thibault talks with Mathew and gives a tarot reading through the lens of Doña Tules (Maria Gertrudis Barceló), a figure from New Mexican history, and a featured personality in the SITE Santa Fe International show.
Doña Tules has advice for artists, and anyone trying to make their way in the world as an entrepreneur. The tarot cards are the official Grateful Dead tarot cards, second edition. About Radio TomadaRadio Tomada 87.9 is a mobile radio broadcast project organized by Autumn Chacon for SITE Santa Fe's International Biennial curated by Cecila Alemani. Matthew Chase-DanielMatthew Chase-Daniel was born in Cambridge, Massachusetts in 1965 and lived in New York City in the 1960s. In the mid and late 1980s, Chase-Daniel studied at the Ojai Foundation in Ojai, California, at Sarah Lawrence College in Bronxville, New York (B.A.), and in Paris, France, where he studied cultural anthropology, photography, and ethnographic film production (Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes & Sorbonne). Since 1989, he has lived in Santa Fe, New Mexico making family, and roaming the landscape to make his art. His photography and sculpture have been exhibited across the U.S. and in Europe. Matthew's work: https://www.chasedaniel.com/About The Side WooThe Side Woo podcast was created by Thibault² to open a frank dialogue about the overlaps of mental health, queer stories, the metaphysical (woo), and creativity as a way to understand how one builds a sustainable creative life, and to shine a light on the ways artists overcome trauma and adversity. New episodes come out on Thursdays.About Thibault²Thibault² is a trans, interdisciplinary artist based in New Mexico. To learn more you can follow them on their blog, artdate.substack.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Hello and welcome to the side Woo.
This is your host, Tebow, helping you navigate the wild
and mysterious path that is the creative life.
Join me as I ask our guests about the tools they use to help
them survive in the creative wilderness.
And I'm here with Tebow, who dida session with us a month or two
(00:26):
ago over on Lena St. And and they're back, which is
great. And Tibo works in there at site
Santa Fe as a site guide and does has her own radio show
podcast kind of thing. The Woo the the side woo.
That's right. Yeah.
(00:46):
The side woo that you were on briefly, yeah.
Yeah. And so you're back, and you're
getting back some tarot. And.
Other stuff. So welcome to Bow.
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me
again. I felt a little like is this too
much to go on again? But I'm a sucker for radio
tracks, so. Yeah, it's it's not too much at.
(01:07):
All it's cool. Well, and I had an idea that
kind of came to me this morning.I was talking to another guide
about tarot. She had this kind of mystical
experience where a psychic person told her to, like, throw
away her tarot deck because she was like channeling too many
things through it. And somehow that made me think
(01:28):
like, Oh yeah, who could I channel?
And Dona Tulis came to mind, which is one of the figures of
interest in the site. Biennial or international
exhibition, right? She's a famous saloon owner who
amassed a bunch of wealth and kind of ruled the school for.
Right. Was that what's now?
(01:49):
Or was the Palace Restaurant, Burrow Alley and Palace?
Well, maybe I don't know the area enough and they didn't say
that in the vault text that we had to memorize, but right.
But one of the reasons I feel connected to her is 'cause I
know in a past life I was a saloon owner.
Uh huh. But I didn't have it quite as
good luck as she did. Did you get gunned?
Down. I did.
(02:10):
Yeah. By an angry customer that I like
kicked out or something. Well, that's it.
Got you here quicker. It did.
I'm here now instead of 20 yearslater because of that I guess.
Because you're reincarnated morerapidly than you're expecting.
Totally. Yeah, Dona Tulis has still got
to catch up, but she's got a couple years.
(02:32):
But so I had this idea to like channel Dona Tulis and do a
reading to see what she would advise for people trying to make
it in this world right now. And maybe specifically artists
who do kind of have to navigate their career as if they're a
business owner and defend their turf creatively.
(02:55):
And you know, you have to be savvy to be an artist and
sustain a career, even though that's not everyone's favorite
thing but. And I'm sure you see that a lot
at Site Santa Fe, because the artists who come through there,
mostly ones who have been successful.
Exactly. And then also there's like, I
don't want to call anyone out, but there are pieces where,
(03:16):
like, things don't work the way that you expect.
And how do you navigate the failures in your practice and
make them work anyway, you know?So yeah.
I think it's important as an artist, if you're going to keep
sort of pushing the envelope andchallenging yourself and making
challenging work, is to allow yourself to sometimes push it to
(03:40):
the point where. It fails totally.
And that's. Yeah, having a piece fail
doesn't isn't a. Like a failure.
Failure, right? There's.
Yeah, there's. Failing aspects of it, and
there's learning aspects of it, and if you're not willing to go
there, then maybe you're not willing to make.
It. Yeah, And that too.
And I think like, you never totally know who's going to see
(04:02):
your work and what impact it might make on someone.
I have to say I underestimated how much time guards and guides
spend with artwork. And so if you have a show in a
museum, they are your main audience, honestly.
Yeah, because they're spending like 8 hours a day with your
work, which is kind of insane, right?
(04:24):
And seeing things in it. That no one else?
Yeah, Probably only the artist also sees.
You know, that's great. Yeah.
So with that in mind, I'm going to pull 3 cards.
I think there should be a debrief at the end of a long
museum show with all the the artist and the museum guards.
(04:44):
I would love to give some notes.I have so many opinions.
I'm sure they care. OK, All right, so I'm using the
Grateful Dead official Tarot deck, which has been really
funny to use because instead of the normal suits, you have
skulls, you have bears, you haveroses, and you have lightning
(05:07):
bolts instead of like the wands and cups.
Yeah, all that. And skulls are swords, bears are
pentacles. And then the Major Arcana also
have like, slightly different names.
So the first card I got was Father, and that's the Emperor
card. But yeah, we see a Gratefully
(05:31):
Dead Man. He's holding a bottle of beer
and a pyramid sitting at a wood crate.
So yeah, it's interesting that Emperor came up right away
because I do feel like Dunya Tulas had to have this, like,
kind of masculine energy to, like, manage a saloon.
Like, yeah, she had, like, a certain look, it seems, based on
(05:54):
the documentation. But then she also had to deal
with like, everybody coming in and.
Wasn't it? Was it a brothel?
As well, I think it was like a brothel potentially.
That's something we don't like talk about too much.
In the show, but. But yeah, for sure, that is how
she made her money. And so you gotta deal with a
bunch of surly men. And she was a property owner,
(06:17):
probably had to deal with like bar people, you know, and
customers who get rowdy and stuff.
There was gambling there, you know, she was doing cards and
stuff too. So, so thinking about the
emperor and embodying this like kind of like idealized, like
masculine energy around setting boundaries, being friendly, but
(06:38):
also being able to like show strength when you need it.
This one feels like he's sittingin a New Mexican style landscape
where there's like a river goingthrough and mountains in the
background and it feels like it is a little Wild West.
The elements are kind of still getting you, even though
technically you're in charge. So I feel like as an artist,
(07:05):
you're never going to be managing your career in an ideal
setting. Like I feel like you're
constantly having to re evaluatelike your studio or like your
resources, your time and so and like the people you're working
with, other people are hell. You know, like so kind of always
(07:27):
being ready to be flexible and holding that inner strength and
like boundaries while dealing with all these other external
circumstances. Like you can be sitting on a
crate and still be powerful, right?
Which and you should be ready for the monsoon and the.
Wind ready for the monsoon? Yeah.
(07:47):
Ready to, like, get your house knocked over?
And then we have King of Bears, which is King of Pentacles.
And that's someone who's like really comfortable in the
resources that they have and know how to use them so that
nothing is wasted. And it's also not holding too
tightly to like the outcome of something like resource wise,
(08:09):
not going into a situation fearing that there will be
scarcity, which I think a lot ofartists we get in this mindset
of if I don't take this thing orif this thing doesn't go exactly
the way I want, I'm not going toever get another chance.
Or if I don't have the fancy studio, that's not going to make
me the work I want. So like being open to letting go
(08:31):
of the the accolades and the thefancy trappings of an artist
career and focus on tilling the soil because we have the
Grateful Dead guy tilling earth that doesn't have any any
sprouts yet, which is interesting because most king of
(08:52):
Pentacles has like a ton of greenery on it.
This guy's more kind of like early stages planting his garden
for the the harvest, which is like, feels like it's in the
future, but like he feels confident, like it's coming
together. I'm he knows he can do it.
So yeah, these both these energies are really kind of like
(09:14):
strong masculine energy and alsojust about not needing other
people's approval, which I thinkis the trap that artists fall
into because, yeah, if you're doing A2 list, it's not like
your customers are going to giveyou approval while you're taking
(09:34):
their money or like or. Status or.
Right. Like they're, if anything, they
want something from you and they're going to constantly be
trying to get it. So like to give in to that like
or whatever flattery is like making yourself vulnerable
almost. Yeah.
I don't know if you have any your, your tarot insights
(09:57):
looking at these cards 'cause they're, it's funny, like I try
to look at the actual visuals and these are right, quite
different than. Well, they're also something
they're skulls, the sure, the figures.
And I don't know if that's particular to the Grateful Dead
version. For sure.
'Cause they're 'cause. Every everybody is dead in this
Yeah, right. And I'm.
(10:17):
Trying to remember where the name the Grateful Dead it came.
There's some folk tale or something from Europe I think
about. The OK.
Grateful Dead, but I don't remember it.
Yeah. I'm not like the biggest dead
head, I just really. Love them.
Neither am I. They're beautiful.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Clouds.
Lightning. Yeah, like there's a lot of
(10:39):
weather in these. So I think it's about, you know,
like making creativity and holding your own despite all the
elements coming in and trying totake you out.
Yeah, yeah. Or not even that personal.
Just like they are going to comein and like can you deal with
them without attaching too much to the outcome?
(10:59):
And yeah. And who's this, this figure?
The little figure? Yeah, there's a.
Little kid. Yeah.
It's like a little bear. Yeah.
I think that's like about nurturing maybe people who come
after you too. Yeah, that's in the the King.
Yeah, yeah, the king of Bears. 18 Pentacles King of bears is
(11:21):
king, and you were saying fatherin other decks is the emperor.
So we have a king and emperor. So.
Those are both. Like big powerful leader.
Yeah, like Big Daddy Energy. Yeah, interesting.
Yeah, I do think that there's a point in your career, and it's
interesting because of the King of Bears has a big mountain in
the background with the sun behind it.
(11:41):
And there's this book called The2nd Mountain where it talks
about like, you know, if you're really successful as a creative,
you'll hit the 1st mountain where you're really trying to
build a name for yourself. And then a lot of times people
kind of drop off feeling like that's no longer enough.
And so then the second mountain is all about like building a
(12:02):
network, a community, like helping other people do what
they need to do, like teaching, you know, from your experience.
So maybe that's partly to the king of Henan, the. 2nd
Mountain. Yeah, with the little bear,
yeah. No, I do think certainly in the
arts people work really hard to get recognition or get like in
(12:22):
their work into a gallery. Yeah.
And then you like, find to get just this from my own
experience, yeah. So I've observed you find a
gallery and then it's like, oh, but they're not going to make it
all happen. Now you have to.
Right. Find make sure you have a
gallery that's trying to show the work and sell the work
right? And you have to produce, keep
producing good work and you know.
(12:44):
It's only creating more problems.
To the mountain that you're aiming for.
And you're like, oh, but wait, this isn't it at all.
There's this other thing. And yeah.
And then you get what you're saying.
The second mountain where it's like, oh, it's actually about
the world. Like what is my place in the
community? And the world, Yeah.
What role do I how can I be of service through my art rather
(13:05):
than serving myself right? Yeah, because in the beginning
it's just like sort of a lot of ego.
Yeah, but how can I be successful?
Because this is what I want to do.
How can I make a living? And how you know all those
things? And I do think there's something
really powerful about having that moment where you get
acknowledged for your work, likeit, you know, it makes you feel
seen. But then to stop there feels
(13:26):
like that's the part where people get stuck.
Like, don't, don't stop. Yeah.
All right. The last card is the 8 of
skulls, which skulls are swords.So it's 8 of swords, 8 of
skulls, and it's a rose who's coming out of the ocean and it's
(13:47):
wrapped in what looks like toilet paper but probably is
like some kind of fabric. And then there's 8 skulls, kind
of like in a mandala shape around the Rose.
Typically 8 of swords is someonelike kind of in bondage, like
tied up, blindfolded, can't get out of this ring of swords.
(14:08):
And it's unclear, like, are theyactually stuck or are they there
and they're like holding themselves hostage?
And so with the Rose, I mean, itfeels like a little more clear
that someone like wrap somethingaround this rose, but it seems
like the fabric keeping it from blossoming is kind of like
slowly unraveling. So I think this talks about like
(14:31):
writer's block and how we do a lot to keep ourselves like from
being our biggest, best, brightest selves and just
keeping an eye on all the ways in which we keep ourselves
small. That's how I would.
And I wonder how with Dona Tulas, like how this would feed
in for her. I mean, maybe just not self
(14:54):
sabotaging, not partaking in. I mean, looking at all the
skulls around the rows, if thoseare like different people's
opinions about like what she used you or she should be doing,
right? Like, you can't be listening to
all those people or you're goingto go crazy.
And she wasn't ever like electedgovernor.
(15:15):
You know, she had her role and her that's notoriety and stuff,
but not necessarily huge respectin the community.
She was behind the scenes more. That's true too.
And how do you how does that work as a powerful person which
she was in the community, but. Not being a.
Not doing it all the right way or something, whether it's
(15:36):
gambling, saloon, prostitution, whatever the things.
And when this was when like 1900or?
Something like late 1800s, early19.
Yeah, yeah. So this area.
Well, plus just being a woman, like, already is like suspect.
Like, why are you in this sphere?
Yeah. But yeah, it feels a lot about
like these skulls, like they're neither friend nor foe.
(16:01):
It's like, take what you need, leave the rest, and you can't
please them all. You got to take care of
yourself. But also, yeah, be ready with
the King of Pentacles and the Emperor.
Be ready to like create your ownsphere in which you can be
successful rather than like looking for that high profile
(16:24):
position maybe. Yeah.
Is there a way in which since you spent hundreds of hours or
dozens of hours in that room because the show in there
Insight Santa Fe is organized bycharacter of interest or
whatever. And there's so there's a Dona
too lace section and in the way the artists, other artists have
(16:48):
responded to that figure. Do those tie into what you're
seeing here or? You know, I think she's
portrayed as, like, one of the, like, pretty flowers of that
era. Like, a lot of the work in
that's directly inspired by her is kind of about her as, like, a
(17:08):
cute little saloon girl and not so much as this, like, powerful
figure. Yeah.
Because my guess is she wasn't just so cute, you know, like she
kind of had to deal with a lot of different people.
So it's almost a vulnerability to just only be cute, you know,
I don't know. Isn't there?
Is there a Bauman marionette? That's something else.
(17:30):
It's Donamala, which is like theother figure of interest for
that room. But I do feel like there's a
little bit of a correspondence because it's like Donamala was
this character that like, basically doesn't give a shit
what you have to say and is there to like, spoil your party,
right? So I feel like making peace with
that side of yourself is maybe important.
(17:53):
Yeah. What are the artworks?
I'm not remembering that. Yeah, well, there's like a bunch
of kind of body centered work like Louise Bonnet, Patricia
Iris, Penny Seopsis. Right.
And that's. But that's not really that
feels. Separate from the DH Lawrence
(18:14):
and then. Oh yeah.
And that's sort of this sort of Eroticism, but I sort of felt
like the Dona Tulace was separate from that.
Yeah, there was like a series ofpaintings and ceramic pieces by
Katya Seib, I think her name is,that are specifically responding
(18:35):
to kind of like the fortune telling aspect.
Of right, they're all big ones across the wall.
Yeah. And then she made kind of like
some ceramic playing cards with like, characters who might have
been at the saloon, right. It feels a little idealized,
like they're kind of the Disney version versus probably what was
really going on, which is a bunch of CD creeps.
(18:57):
Yeah, it was. A pretty rough town.
Totally. Downtown Santa Fe 150 years ago.
Or yeah, I think people were a lot dirtier than they look in
the the ceramic cards. Yeah, there's a Canyon as if you
go out old Santa Fe Trail calledLa Barbaria Canyon, where
there's now houses and stuff. But it it used to be as people
(19:20):
came in and that arrow down the Santa Fe Trail from Saint Louis
or wherever there was a La Barbaria, which was a bath
house. OK, Yeah.
Barber shop, whatever on the outskirts of town and so people
would come in and get a get a bath and get cleaned up before
they came into town. Interesting.
(19:40):
And that was kind of yeah, because they.
Were dirty. Other things they were just.
To get back to The Dirty. No, totally right.
Like they bathed like maybe oncea week.
Yeah, if they're lucky. And crossing, you go east of
Santa Fe and you go pass Glorietta into Las Vegas.
Yeah. And then it's just like flat all
the way to Pennsylvania. And you're on your horse and,
(20:03):
like, getting dust kicked in your face.
Yeah. So rough, a rough place and all
sorts of people and yeah, yeah. Yeah, So she was a major badass.
I don't think any of us are quite equipped the way that she
was probably to deal with that her job.
No, I don't either, but I have. I'd rather be a site guide than,
well, no problem. Totally rather talk about her in
(20:26):
past tense. Yeah, for sure.
And I don't wish. Yeah, my past life on anyone.
Yeah, it sounded equally rough, but yeah.
Well, I have to get back from mylunch, but thank you so much.
Thank you so much for taking some of your lunch time to to
share with us and do that reading.
It was really wonderful and a beautiful card.
(20:48):
So this is Tebow and the grateful Jed, the official deck
and guidebook. Of yeah, of the grateful deck.
Yeah. Yeah, in season 5 of the side,
Woo has just been launched, so we've got.
People find the side woo. You can go on YouTube and it's
the side woo woo and then any podcasting platform that you
(21:12):
enjoy. All right, the side woo
wonderful. Thank you so much.
You guys, I love this radio track.
I'll be sad that you're no longer gonna be here.
Yeah, we'll be here with something else.
OK, great. OK, bye.
Bye. That's all.
For this week's episode, thank you so much for listening.
This was your host, Tebow with sound editing help by Natasha.
(21:35):
Lowey, if you. Love this episode?
Please share it with a friend, write us a review, and give us
five stars for good karma points.
To watch along, subscribe to ourYouTube channel and see all of
our videos and live talk recordings there.
Thanks so much for listening. See you next time on the side
move.
Hello and welcome to the side Woo.
This is your host, Tebow, helping you navigate the wild
and mysterious path that is the creative life.
Join me as I ask our guests about the tools they use to help
them survive in the creative wilderness.
And I'm here with Tebow, who dida session with us a month or two
(00:26):
ago over on Lena St. And and they're back, which is
great. And Tibo works in there at site
Santa Fe as a site guide and does has her own radio show
podcast kind of thing. The Woo the the side woo.
That's right. Yeah.
(00:46):
The side woo that you were on briefly, yeah.
Yeah. And so you're back, and you're
getting back some tarot. And.
Other stuff. So welcome to Bow.
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me
again. I felt a little like is this too
much to go on again? But I'm a sucker for radio
tracks, so. Yeah, it's it's not too much at.
(01:07):
All it's cool. Well, and I had an idea that
kind of came to me this morning.I was talking to another guide
about tarot. She had this kind of mystical
experience where a psychic person told her to, like, throw
away her tarot deck because she was like channeling too many
things through it. And somehow that made me think
(01:28):
like, Oh yeah, who could I channel?
And Dona Tulis came to mind, which is one of the figures of
interest in the site. Biennial or international
exhibition, right? She's a famous saloon owner who
amassed a bunch of wealth and kind of ruled the school for.
Right. Was that what's now?
(01:49):
Or was the Palace Restaurant, Burrow Alley and Palace?
Well, maybe I don't know the area enough and they didn't say
that in the vault text that we had to memorize, but right.
But one of the reasons I feel connected to her is 'cause I
know in a past life I was a saloon owner.
Uh huh. But I didn't have it quite as
good luck as she did. Did you get gunned?
Down. I did.
(02:10):
Yeah. By an angry customer that I like
kicked out or something. Well, that's it.
Got you here quicker. It did.
I'm here now instead of 20 yearslater because of that I guess.
Because you're reincarnated morerapidly than you're expecting.
Totally. Yeah, Dona Tulis has still got
to catch up, but she's got a couple years.
(02:32):
But so I had this idea to like channel Dona Tulis and do a
reading to see what she would advise for people trying to make
it in this world right now. And maybe specifically artists
who do kind of have to navigate their career as if they're a
business owner and defend their turf creatively.
(02:55):
And you know, you have to be savvy to be an artist and
sustain a career, even though that's not everyone's favorite
thing but. And I'm sure you see that a lot
at Site Santa Fe, because the artists who come through there,
mostly ones who have been successful.
Exactly. And then also there's like, I
don't want to call anyone out, but there are pieces where,
(03:16):
like, things don't work the way that you expect.
And how do you navigate the failures in your practice and
make them work anyway, you know?So yeah.
I think it's important as an artist, if you're going to keep
sort of pushing the envelope andchallenging yourself and making
challenging work, is to allow yourself to sometimes push it to
(03:40):
the point where. It fails totally.
And that's. Yeah, having a piece fail
doesn't isn't a. Like a failure.
Failure, right? There's.
Yeah, there's. Failing aspects of it, and
there's learning aspects of it, and if you're not willing to go
there, then maybe you're not willing to make.
It. Yeah, And that too.
And I think like, you never totally know who's going to see
(04:02):
your work and what impact it might make on someone.
I have to say I underestimated how much time guards and guides
spend with artwork. And so if you have a show in a
museum, they are your main audience, honestly.
Yeah, because they're spending like 8 hours a day with your
work, which is kind of insane, right?
(04:24):
And seeing things in it. That no one else?
Yeah, Probably only the artist also sees.
You know, that's great. Yeah.
So with that in mind, I'm going to pull 3 cards.
I think there should be a debrief at the end of a long
museum show with all the the artist and the museum guards.
(04:44):
I would love to give some notes.I have so many opinions.
I'm sure they care. OK, All right, so I'm using the
Grateful Dead official Tarot deck, which has been really
funny to use because instead of the normal suits, you have
skulls, you have bears, you haveroses, and you have lightning
(05:07):
bolts instead of like the wands and cups.
Yeah, all that. And skulls are swords, bears are
pentacles. And then the Major Arcana also
have like, slightly different names.
So the first card I got was Father, and that's the Emperor
card. But yeah, we see a Gratefully
(05:31):
Dead Man. He's holding a bottle of beer
and a pyramid sitting at a wood crate.
So yeah, it's interesting that Emperor came up right away
because I do feel like Dunya Tulas had to have this, like,
kind of masculine energy to, like, manage a saloon.
Like, yeah, she had, like, a certain look, it seems, based on
(05:54):
the documentation. But then she also had to deal
with like, everybody coming in and.
Wasn't it? Was it a brothel?
As well, I think it was like a brothel potentially.
That's something we don't like talk about too much.
In the show, but. But yeah, for sure, that is how
she made her money. And so you gotta deal with a
bunch of surly men. And she was a property owner,
(06:17):
probably had to deal with like bar people, you know, and
customers who get rowdy and stuff.
There was gambling there, you know, she was doing cards and
stuff too. So, so thinking about the
emperor and embodying this like kind of like idealized, like
masculine energy around setting boundaries, being friendly, but
(06:38):
also being able to like show strength when you need it.
This one feels like he's sittingin a New Mexican style landscape
where there's like a river goingthrough and mountains in the
background and it feels like it is a little Wild West.
The elements are kind of still getting you, even though
technically you're in charge. So I feel like as an artist,
(07:05):
you're never going to be managing your career in an ideal
setting. Like I feel like you're
constantly having to re evaluatelike your studio or like your
resources, your time and so and like the people you're working
with, other people are hell. You know, like so kind of always
(07:27):
being ready to be flexible and holding that inner strength and
like boundaries while dealing with all these other external
circumstances. Like you can be sitting on a
crate and still be powerful, right?
Which and you should be ready for the monsoon and the.
Wind ready for the monsoon? Yeah.
(07:47):
Ready to, like, get your house knocked over?
And then we have King of Bears, which is King of Pentacles.
And that's someone who's like really comfortable in the
resources that they have and know how to use them so that
nothing is wasted. And it's also not holding too
tightly to like the outcome of something like resource wise,
(08:09):
not going into a situation fearing that there will be
scarcity, which I think a lot ofartists we get in this mindset
of if I don't take this thing orif this thing doesn't go exactly
the way I want, I'm not going toever get another chance.
Or if I don't have the fancy studio, that's not going to make
me the work I want. So like being open to letting go
(08:31):
of the the accolades and the thefancy trappings of an artist
career and focus on tilling the soil because we have the
Grateful Dead guy tilling earth that doesn't have any any
sprouts yet, which is interesting because most king of
(08:52):
Pentacles has like a ton of greenery on it.
This guy's more kind of like early stages planting his garden
for the the harvest, which is like, feels like it's in the
future, but like he feels confident, like it's coming
together. I'm he knows he can do it.
So yeah, these both these energies are really kind of like
(09:14):
strong masculine energy and alsojust about not needing other
people's approval, which I thinkis the trap that artists fall
into because, yeah, if you're doing A2 list, it's not like
your customers are going to giveyou approval while you're taking
(09:34):
their money or like or. Status or.
Right. Like they're, if anything, they
want something from you and they're going to constantly be
trying to get it. So like to give in to that like
or whatever flattery is like making yourself vulnerable
almost. Yeah.
I don't know if you have any your, your tarot insights
(09:57):
looking at these cards 'cause they're, it's funny, like I try
to look at the actual visuals and these are right, quite
different than. Well, they're also something
they're skulls, the sure, the figures.
And I don't know if that's particular to the Grateful Dead
version. For sure.
'Cause they're 'cause. Every everybody is dead in this
Yeah, right. And I'm.
(10:17):
Trying to remember where the name the Grateful Dead it came.
There's some folk tale or something from Europe I think
about. The OK.
Grateful Dead, but I don't remember it.
Yeah. I'm not like the biggest dead
head, I just really. Love them.
Neither am I. They're beautiful.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Clouds.
Lightning. Yeah, like there's a lot of
(10:39):
weather in these. So I think it's about, you know,
like making creativity and holding your own despite all the
elements coming in and trying totake you out.
Yeah, yeah. Or not even that personal.
Just like they are going to comein and like can you deal with
them without attaching too much to the outcome?
(10:59):
And yeah. And who's this, this figure?
The little figure? Yeah, there's a.
Little kid. Yeah.
It's like a little bear. Yeah.
I think that's like about nurturing maybe people who come
after you too. Yeah, that's in the the King.
Yeah, yeah, the king of Bears. 18 Pentacles King of bears is
(11:21):
king, and you were saying fatherin other decks is the emperor.
So we have a king and emperor. So.
Those are both. Like big powerful leader.
Yeah, like Big Daddy Energy. Yeah, interesting.
Yeah, I do think that there's a point in your career, and it's
interesting because of the King of Bears has a big mountain in
the background with the sun behind it.
(11:41):
And there's this book called The2nd Mountain where it talks
about like, you know, if you're really successful as a creative,
you'll hit the 1st mountain where you're really trying to
build a name for yourself. And then a lot of times people
kind of drop off feeling like that's no longer enough.
And so then the second mountain is all about like building a
(12:02):
network, a community, like helping other people do what
they need to do, like teaching, you know, from your experience.
So maybe that's partly to the king of Henan, the. 2nd
Mountain. Yeah, with the little bear,
yeah. No, I do think certainly in the
arts people work really hard to get recognition or get like in
(12:22):
their work into a gallery. Yeah.
And then you like, find to get just this from my own
experience, yeah. So I've observed you find a
gallery and then it's like, oh, but they're not going to make it
all happen. Now you have to.
Right. Find make sure you have a
gallery that's trying to show the work and sell the work
right? And you have to produce, keep
producing good work and you know.
(12:44):
It's only creating more problems.
To the mountain that you're aiming for.
And you're like, oh, but wait, this isn't it at all.
There's this other thing. And yeah.
And then you get what you're saying.
The second mountain where it's like, oh, it's actually about
the world. Like what is my place in the
community? And the world, Yeah.
What role do I how can I be of service through my art rather
(13:05):
than serving myself right? Yeah, because in the beginning
it's just like sort of a lot of ego.
Yeah, but how can I be successful?
Because this is what I want to do.
How can I make a living? And how you know all those
things? And I do think there's something
really powerful about having that moment where you get
acknowledged for your work, likeit, you know, it makes you feel
seen. But then to stop there feels
(13:26):
like that's the part where people get stuck.
Like, don't, don't stop. Yeah.
All right. The last card is the 8 of
skulls, which skulls are swords.So it's 8 of swords, 8 of
skulls, and it's a rose who's coming out of the ocean and it's
(13:47):
wrapped in what looks like toilet paper but probably is
like some kind of fabric. And then there's 8 skulls, kind
of like in a mandala shape around the Rose.
Typically 8 of swords is someonelike kind of in bondage, like
tied up, blindfolded, can't get out of this ring of swords.
(14:08):
And it's unclear, like, are theyactually stuck or are they there
and they're like holding themselves hostage?
And so with the Rose, I mean, itfeels like a little more clear
that someone like wrap somethingaround this rose, but it seems
like the fabric keeping it from blossoming is kind of like
slowly unraveling. So I think this talks about like
(14:31):
writer's block and how we do a lot to keep ourselves like from
being our biggest, best, brightest selves and just
keeping an eye on all the ways in which we keep ourselves
small. That's how I would.
And I wonder how with Dona Tulas, like how this would feed
in for her. I mean, maybe just not self
(14:54):
sabotaging, not partaking in. I mean, looking at all the
skulls around the rows, if thoseare like different people's
opinions about like what she used you or she should be doing,
right? Like, you can't be listening to
all those people or you're goingto go crazy.
And she wasn't ever like electedgovernor.
(15:15):
You know, she had her role and her that's notoriety and stuff,
but not necessarily huge respectin the community.
She was behind the scenes more. That's true too.
And how do you how does that work as a powerful person which
she was in the community, but. Not being a.
Not doing it all the right way or something, whether it's
(15:36):
gambling, saloon, prostitution, whatever the things.
And when this was when like 1900or?
Something like late 1800s, early19.
Yeah, yeah. So this area.
Well, plus just being a woman, like, already is like suspect.
Like, why are you in this sphere?
Yeah. But yeah, it feels a lot about
like these skulls, like they're neither friend nor foe.
(16:01):
It's like, take what you need, leave the rest, and you can't
please them all. You got to take care of
yourself. But also, yeah, be ready with
the King of Pentacles and the Emperor.
Be ready to like create your ownsphere in which you can be
successful rather than like looking for that high profile
(16:24):
position maybe. Yeah.
Is there a way in which since you spent hundreds of hours or
dozens of hours in that room because the show in there
Insight Santa Fe is organized bycharacter of interest or
whatever. And there's so there's a Dona
too lace section and in the way the artists, other artists have
(16:48):
responded to that figure. Do those tie into what you're
seeing here or? You know, I think she's
portrayed as, like, one of the, like, pretty flowers of that
era. Like, a lot of the work in
that's directly inspired by her is kind of about her as, like, a
(17:08):
cute little saloon girl and not so much as this, like, powerful
figure. Yeah.
Because my guess is she wasn't just so cute, you know, like she
kind of had to deal with a lot of different people.
So it's almost a vulnerability to just only be cute, you know,
I don't know. Isn't there?
Is there a Bauman marionette? That's something else.
(17:30):
It's Donamala, which is like theother figure of interest for
that room. But I do feel like there's a
little bit of a correspondence because it's like Donamala was
this character that like, basically doesn't give a shit
what you have to say and is there to like, spoil your party,
right? So I feel like making peace with
that side of yourself is maybe important.
(17:53):
Yeah. What are the artworks?
I'm not remembering that. Yeah, well, there's like a bunch
of kind of body centered work like Louise Bonnet, Patricia
Iris, Penny Seopsis. Right.
And that's. But that's not really that
feels. Separate from the DH Lawrence
(18:14):
and then. Oh yeah.
And that's sort of this sort of Eroticism, but I sort of felt
like the Dona Tulace was separate from that.
Yeah, there was like a series ofpaintings and ceramic pieces by
Katya Seib, I think her name is,that are specifically responding
(18:35):
to kind of like the fortune telling aspect.
Of right, they're all big ones across the wall.
Yeah. And then she made kind of like
some ceramic playing cards with like, characters who might have
been at the saloon, right. It feels a little idealized,
like they're kind of the Disney version versus probably what was
really going on, which is a bunch of CD creeps.
(18:57):
Yeah, it was. A pretty rough town.
Totally. Downtown Santa Fe 150 years ago.
Or yeah, I think people were a lot dirtier than they look in
the the ceramic cards. Yeah, there's a Canyon as if you
go out old Santa Fe Trail calledLa Barbaria Canyon, where
there's now houses and stuff. But it it used to be as people
(19:20):
came in and that arrow down the Santa Fe Trail from Saint Louis
or wherever there was a La Barbaria, which was a bath
house. OK, Yeah.
Barber shop, whatever on the outskirts of town and so people
would come in and get a get a bath and get cleaned up before
they came into town. Interesting.
(19:40):
And that was kind of yeah, because they.
Were dirty. Other things they were just.
To get back to The Dirty. No, totally right.
Like they bathed like maybe oncea week.
Yeah, if they're lucky. And crossing, you go east of
Santa Fe and you go pass Glorietta into Las Vegas.
Yeah. And then it's just like flat all
the way to Pennsylvania. And you're on your horse and,
(20:03):
like, getting dust kicked in your face.
Yeah. So rough, a rough place and all
sorts of people and yeah, yeah. Yeah, So she was a major badass.
I don't think any of us are quite equipped the way that she
was probably to deal with that her job.
No, I don't either, but I have. I'd rather be a site guide than,
well, no problem. Totally rather talk about her in
(20:26):
past tense. Yeah, for sure.
And I don't wish. Yeah, my past life on anyone.
Yeah, it sounded equally rough, but yeah.
Well, I have to get back from mylunch, but thank you so much.
Thank you so much for taking some of your lunch time to to
share with us and do that reading.
It was really wonderful and a beautiful card.
(20:48):
So this is Tebow and the grateful Jed, the official deck
and guidebook. Of yeah, of the grateful deck.
Yeah. Yeah, in season 5 of the side,
Woo has just been launched, so we've got.
People find the side woo. You can go on YouTube and it's
the side woo woo and then any podcasting platform that you
(21:12):
enjoy. All right, the side woo
wonderful. Thank you so much.
You guys, I love this radio track.
I'll be sad that you're no longer gonna be here.
Yeah, we'll be here with something else.
OK, great. OK, bye.
Bye. That's all.
For this week's episode, thank you so much for listening.
This was your host, Tebow with sound editing help by Natasha.
(21:35):
Lowey, if you. Love this episode?
Please share it with a friend, write us a review, and give us
five stars for good karma points.
To watch along, subscribe to ourYouTube channel and see all of
our videos and live talk recordings there.
Thanks so much for listening. See you next time on the side
move.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.