Rio Asch Phoenix on Photography and Environmental Activism

This week Thibault sits down with artist and activist Rio Asch Phoenix to talk about his solo show with Monte Vista Projects, While Light Still Falls Here, documenting the hotly contested Canyon Hills property near the Verdugo Mountains in Los Angeles. They talk about Rio's nerd-level love of plants, Instagram's effect on art and why photography is still relevant.

Rio's show will be up at Monte Vista Projects in DTLA until Feb 2nd. Go to his closing reception on Saturday, February 1st. Details on the Monte Vista Projects website.

About Rio Asch Phoenix

Rio Asch Phoenix (b. 1996) is a Los Angeles-based photographer documenting the contested boundaries between built and natural environments. Raised in North Florida, his work focuses on the intersection of these sites and the stories of destruction, renewal, and harmony that emerge from them. 

His photographs have appeared in Contemporary Art Review LA, Telegraph Magazine, and KCRW. Recently, he received an Honor Award from the American Society of Landscape Architects and was selected for Review Santa Fe 2024. He holds a BFA in Photography from Northeastern University (2019)

Show Notes

• ⁠Rio Asch Phoenix website⁠⁠ https://www.rioaschphoenix.com/
• Rio Asch Phoenix Instagram⁠⁠ https://www.instagram.com/rioaschphoenix/
• Monte Vista Projects ⁠https://www.montevistaprojects.com/
• No Canyon Hills https://nocanyonhills.org/⁠
• Support the NCH legal defense fund! https://www.gofundme.com/f/nch-legal⁠⁠
• Watch The Side Woo on YouTube⁠ https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLjjmLJwGNrjyP1vbzNUJxKiJ4MXOw7sfE

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
Hello and welcome to the side Woo.
This is your host, Tebow, helping you navigate the wild
and mysterious path that is the creative life.
Join me as I ask our guests about the tools they use to help
them survive in the creative wilderness.
Well, welcome side Woo listenersand watchers.

(00:24):
For those watching on YouTube, Iam super excited today.
I have Rio Ash Phoenix and he isa Los Angeles based photographer
and I'm going to just read your little bio from the show just to
get people excited in case they don't know your work.
So Rio's Ala based photographer documenting the contested

(00:45):
boundaries between built and natural environments.
Raised in North Florida, his work focuses on the intersection
of these sites and the stories of destruction, renewal and
harmony that emerge from them. I love in some of your other
versions of your BIOS you're like.
I also love riding my bike, holding my breath in cold water

(01:05):
and cooking onions until they are brown and soft and sweet and
salty. So.
My question from that is how long do you have to cook those
onions to get them? Caramelized.
That is a great question. You know, I was just talking
about this the other day becausemy aunt really doesn't like
onions. And I was cooking dinner for my
family like two nights ago and Iwas like, I think that every

(01:25):
single thing that I make like starts with onions.
I was like, so I was so thrown off.
I was like, I don't know how to make anything.
I would say like, yeah, 1010 or 15 minutes and they start
getting brown and nice and sweetand salty.
That's not that bad. I never, yeah, I never do the
full criminalization. I think I'm too impatient for
that. But I know some people asking

(01:46):
like is there? Yeah.
People really commit to like an hour of stirring them and it's
never got, it's never gotten me before.
I wonder if like, air fryers aregood for that, you know, 'cause
they have kind of a weird temperature.
Gauge so you. Could just throw them in and
like stir them occasionally. Yeah, and then just have it
slowly meltdown. That's a good idea.

(02:07):
I've actually never used an air fryer.
Oh, there. But I think you could do it in
an oven. Really.
Yeah. What do you make in that?
Recommend 'cause you know, if you're roasting veggies, it
takes like 45 minutes a lot of times in the oven, but then you
can do basically the same thing for like 15 in the air fryer.
I'm very into that, like time saving 'cause I think, yeah,

(02:29):
roast veggies are like some of the best food.
That's amazing. That's what I ended up making
was roast veggies. Oh cool, I guess it was great.
There's a really good caramelized onion recipe with
Barefoot Contessa. She has like a cream cheese sour
cream dip, but you have to like caramelize the onions first for
two hours. Yeah, probably.
Yeah, I've never been. That's funny.

(02:51):
Yeah. All right, I'll check it out.
Well, cool. And yeah, so to kind of kick off
like the side woo questions, do you know what astrology sign you
are? It's a good question.
I know that I am a Libra and besides that, I honestly don't
know anything about it. Not your jam.

(03:12):
It's never, it's not, not my jam.
I just like, yeah, I've never gotten into it.
I think it's funny, like a lot of my family are very much into
astrology and spirituality and stuff, and they always sort of
make fun of me for being like the opposite.
Not because I don't, yeah, not that there's any judgement.
It's just like a it's never cooked me in the same way, I

(03:34):
think. But I am a Libra.
I don't know if you can tell me something about that.
Libras are big into you know, it's like ruled by Venus.
So art and beauty, natural landscape seems like a natural
fit, but I don't know you so I Iwouldn't be.
Able to diagnose? Yeah, please give me a
diagnosis. Yeah, we can pull up your full

(03:57):
birth chart later. No, I'm just cool.
Yeah. Yeah.
OK, well, so just thinking about, yeah, like sounds like
you're not like super into woo, but do you have kind of a
spiritual belief system? Like are you into religion or do
you have like a connection to like past lives or are you into

(04:19):
any of that stuff or people? Nature is like a woo woo.
Thing sometimes, yeah, yeah, forsure.
Yeah. Like growing up, any sort of
religion or spirituality was so not part of our life.
Like it I didn't even really know that people actually went
to church for like, until I was like 14 or something.

(04:40):
And what it meant to me was like, some of my friends were
Jewish and I got to go to the bar mitzvah and I was like, so
excited about that. It's very fun.
I remember my friend. When I went to my friend's bar
mitzvahs and bar mitzvahs, I waslike, this is the most fun
thing. It was like the, I mean, it was
like the most exciting. It felt like I was 25 years old
or something. And I'm, you know, 12 in a suit

(05:01):
and Oh yeah, this is like a cocktail party for.
Yeah, totally. Exactly.
And I remember my friend Zach got, you know, they, they get a
lot of gifts from their friends and family.
And he got, I think like $1100 total like for his like from
everyone. And that was the most, like,
unbelievable amount of money to me.
Like, I could not wrap my head around the fact that like anyone

(05:23):
could have $1000. I was so jealous of him.
But yeah. And then growing up, I mean, I,
I like, I think I am someone whoreally like, I get a lot of, I
don't know, like all of my balance from just feeling like
I'm in my body. And I think like experiences

(05:44):
that make me feel more connectedto that are like my way of sort
of feeling alive and like a person.
And so I think like sort of any sort of like organized religion
or spirituality hasn't ever really got me, but it hasn't.
Been in It sounds like you haven't been like it hasn't been

(06:06):
forced upon you either. So no, it hasn't.
Yeah, it really wasn't. It wasn't, it just wasn't even a
part of my like I never even knew that it was part of
people's life really like it. It never existed as a thing that
like could be, could be an option.
It just was so separate. And I think, you know, growing
up, like I, I, I've, I've found that sort of sense of purpose or

(06:29):
meaning from, yeah, again, from like feeling like I'm in my
body, like I'm connected to the things around me that I'm not
just like floating up in my head.
And the times like those last two weeks or three weeks that
have been really sort of traumatic and bizarre for a lot
of people here in Lai think I felt so disconnected and like,

(06:50):
so it's the worst feeling like so anxious and like, I can't,
you know, go for a run or go garden or go for a hike or
anything. And that's when I feel like most
sort of floating or, yeah, not, not like a real entity in the
world. Yeah, yeah, just.

(07:11):
For listeners, you're OK. You're you're.
Housing and. Everything is OK.
Yeah, yeah, for sure. I know we talked about it, but
just so people like, Oh my God, what happened?
Yeah, yeah. No, I am OK everything.
Happened not necessarily to you.Yeah, exactly.
And yeah, so I don't know, I think there's like this really

(07:31):
beautiful, like feeling of connectedness that I, that I
have in times. Like, you know, I am made-up of
lots of stuff and it's constantly passing through me.
And it's also the same thing that makes up everything else.
And I think when I feel like tapped into that of like, I am
just part of this bigger sort ofthing, I think that's when I

(07:54):
feel the best really. It's like, I, you know, I'm just
one little thing and I will turnsomething else.
And I was something else before.But as far as like, yeah,
organized or sort of practice sort of structured, I think my
best answer to that is like really just trying to find the
things that make me feel like I'm in my body and in in a

(08:16):
broader context. Cool, that sounds very healthy.
Very. Grounded.
You're not going to get like swept up by a cult or anything.
That's what you think? Yeah, exactly.
Well, and so it it sounds like, yeah, you part of this like kind
of connecting to the physical world and in your body and you

(08:40):
know, like from seeing your showup at Monte Vista projects, like
you're obviously really into nature.
It sounds like you garden. So like maybe talk a little bit
more about that, Like how do you, how did you get into
gardening? Yeah, for sure.
I grew up in in North Florida and we had like 25 acres sort of
in the country and so and what? Is North Florida for people who?

(09:04):
Don't I don't know what. That means.
Yeah, for sure. I went to school in a in a town
called Gainesville, which is like 2 hours sort of north of
Orlando. There's the University of
Florida there, but I grew up sort of outside like 20 minutes
in the country a little bit and.And what is that land like?

(09:25):
Is that marshy? So beautiful.
Yeah. It's like swampland and then
huge oak trees and sort of pine hammocks and like a lot of
Spanish moths hanging everywhere.
It's really humid. It's really sort of like tons of
bugs and alligators and snakes and so have you.

(09:46):
Had like alligator or predator run insurance or.
Yeah, it's so funny. I like again, like I I was there
until I was 18 and alligators were just sort of like around
like we never, I'd never really thought about.
They were just like something that is there.
And then I moved away and I would talk about it and people
were like, are you scared of them?
You can't. You just.

(10:07):
Gloss over the alligator. Yeah.
So no, they were around. They were like they would come
in our pool and we had to like have someone take them out.
They would just walk around. There's like a trail in
Gainesville that you can walk out onto the Prairie, which is
like this big sort of huge nature preserve that's sort of
sometimes it's flooded and sometimes it's dry, but it's a
really wild place. There's like wild horses and

(10:28):
alligators and bison. That's so cool.
But you can walk. Out like I always think of bison
as like Prairie animals and horses as I don't know, mountain
animals, but I guess they can all.
They're all just hanging out. Yeah, on.
The same timeline I guess. Yeah.
And you can walk out, like on this sort of path, and there's

(10:50):
like hundreds of alligators thatare just, like, on both sides
hanging out. And The thing is, is, like, they
really are. Like, they're so lazy.
They just sort of like, lay in the sun all day.
I would be scared to go swimming, like, in the water
with them for sure. But when they're just kind of on
the bank, they like don't they don't do anything.
Thrive by getting you in the water, right?

(11:11):
Like they're they're like praying.
They're hunting in the. Water.
Exactly. Yeah.
Trying to drown. Yeah.
This sort of thing. Exactly.
Yeah. If you get here, then you're
you're in a bad place, for sure.But when you're just walking by
them, I don't know. Yeah, I was never.
I was never scared of them growing up, really.
And it's always like, my favorite thing to bring people

(11:32):
back and show them because it's a really, yeah, it feels like it
should be dangerous and. Yeah, it sounds really
dangerous, but. Yeah.
So yeah, as far as like being outside and gardening, it has
always like the outside is always been really interesting
to me. And then I moved to LA after
college and I got an apartment like four months before the

(11:56):
pandemic sort of started and lockdowns began in earnest.
And I had like a little side yard that was covered in just
gravel. And I spent like six months
every day just like getting rid of gravel and planting and
gardening. And just like that was my like,
COVID sort of activity or like way to feel alive a little bit.

(12:18):
So I got really into gardening there.
And then, you know, LA has this really amazing, like, native
plant ecology scene. There's a lot of like, people in
groups organizing and thinking about native ecology.
And I got, I got sort of sucked into it by going on this trip to
the Baja with my friend Evan Meyer, who used to work at the

(12:40):
Theater Fame Foundation and is now up in Seattle.
But we went to Baja for a weekend just like we're
botanizing, walking around and looking at plants.
And it was the most like, amazing, beautiful, exciting
time. And that was really my.
Centered around you looking at and identifying plants, is that
right? OK.

(13:01):
Pretty much, yeah. It was like, it was like 10,
just sort of plant nerds, like walking and hiking and like, you
know, I I'm not a botanist. Like, I didn't know the names of
all these plants at the time. And so they're just like
speaking in Latin and like, havelittle loops and like they're
looking at Latin little plants. And I was so fascinated by all

(13:21):
of that. That was so interesting.
I felt like a scavenger hunt, but there was no real like prize
or anything. There's nothing.
We were actually. For getting rewarded.
And no, no, not at all. Knowing my.
Aunt. Works at the Arboretum in
Minnesota and she's like that where she is like an
encyclopedic knowledge of like Latin names for plants and some
animals, but. Amazing.

(13:42):
It's crazy. I'm like, I don't know how they
do. It how that's useful right now.
You know, I mean, it's great. But so like, yeah, with the
people in your group, maybe not you, but we're they're going to
like make something with plants or how are they putting their
knowledge to use? From that trip or just like in
their in their life, in their life, a lot of them work sort of

(14:06):
professionally as like either botanist or part of the
restoration groups or there's like the California Native Plant
Society, which a lot of them were members of.
And Evan was the director of Peter Payne Foundation that's
made a plant nursery. So they all were like, it felt
like I don't think anyone was there was not involved in sort
of like the plan community professionally besides me.
I was like the only one that wassort of I had no idea what I was

(14:30):
doing. We welcome you into.
It yeah, exactly. Organization it was so yeah, I
just love I love people who are really yeah who are just like
unapologetically like really into something and like I.
I don't know I just felt like I was getting a peek into this
world that I didn't know existedand it.

(14:51):
It was really beautiful also I mean I was I was there to
photograph like whatever. And it was a great trip.
And so after that, I came back to LA and I was like, I'm really
interested in in what native points are and what, you know,
learning more about it and getting more specific about
this, like, very localized ecology because it is really
special here in California. There's like such a long and

(15:15):
amazing and tragic history around.
Yeah, this, this, this place. Well, and especially LA, people
think of it as this concrete sprawling dystopia.
And it's so gorgeous. Like I'm living in Tahunga,
which we get to like this area, but it's so pretty and there's

(15:38):
tons of birds, like even the LA River, which is a little
disgusting, you know? But over in Frogtown, there's
like 20 kinds of birds when you just, like start on the trail
and then you just keep going and.
There's some. Amazing things to look at and.
Yeah, no, totally. Yeah, I, it's funny.
I grew up like coming to Lai hadsomething I looked at here.
And so we would come once a yearor so.

(16:01):
And I always thought it was like, it's the grossest and the
worst place in the world. I was like, I cannot believe
people live here. And I think like my interest in
this sort of like native plant ecology really was me trying to
figure out how to feel more connected to this place because
I felt like I was, I was like a little bit on the edge or like a

(16:22):
little bit like, I don't, I don't get it.
I don't know why I'm here. And then I read.
It's funny. I actually read Jenny Odell how
to do nothing. Have you read that book?
And she has a, you know, a big part of it is like trying to
sort of learn your your bio region and like understand and
be able to be specific about like the life that is happening
outside of the city and like being able to recognize the

(16:45):
birds and the plants and the things that are in your really
sort of specific area. And something about that really
quick for me. I was like, you're right.
I'm not, I'm not giving it enough of a chance if I'm not
going to be like specific about this place.
Like it isn't, it is a, it is a,it is a different place than
I've ever lived. And I feel like I need to get
really more in touch with that. And so I think that was my, my

(17:10):
way of trying to feel more connected for sure.
And it, it is worth it. Like it totally opens up a whole
new understanding of, of where you're living when you have a
different, different lens on it.Not intended.
Something's interesting. Too About being able to put
language to things, you know, knowing the names of things and

(17:33):
getting into like the history ofthe land or I don't know, like
how they were formed it. Does.
Create something different, likea different relationship than if
you're just like looking at it like, wow, it's so pretty and
then. That's it, you know.
I mean, not to say that's not a valuable relationship with
nature. No, for sure not.
Yeah, but I, yeah, I think thereis something about like a sort

(17:53):
of generic, this flower is the same as the one in Florida or
the same as the one in Massachusetts or I think it
loses a little bit of it's like,wait, when, when you, yeah, when
you let it be a little bit more surface level.
Like, yeah, I've gotten a lot of, I've gotten a lot of like

(18:16):
it's just felt me like help me feel way more connected to this
place, being more specific aboutit.
And how do you think your photography plays into that?
Does that reinforce it or are they kind of separate?
Yeah, no, I think they're reallyconnected.
I feel like they are. I think the same way that I I'm

(18:40):
interested in being specific about like what I'm seeing and
what I'm doing. Like I, I want my photos to feel
the same sort of specificity. Like this is this, this is a
real place and it is like, it's so special and magical.
Like I, I wanted to feel like a real place within like 10% more

(19:01):
amazing or like more beautiful than you would ever actually see
it. Which I think you do get at, but
I think also the the Canyon Hills development is that
beautiful. People don't know about it.
So it's part of like the mysteryof LA where you kind of get
introduced to these spots like that.
And I think it is that beautifulwhen you're there, but you would

(19:26):
never know about it. Like I, I live literally a mile
from it and it took me like a year and eight months to like,
learn about it because it was just not I.
Don't know. I think there's a.
Lot of stuff like that though. Totally.
I think, yeah, I think that's a better way of putting it is like
I, I have found so much joy, like trying to find these places

(19:48):
and like really look at them andfeel like they're part of my
life. And I think my photography is a
way for me to to like talk aboutthat.
And you know, I'm talking about officially, obviously, but I'm
like, I'm trying to bring all ofall of it out, all of it out
into the world a little bit. And like, maybe what I get from

(20:10):
it is like, you're celebrating instead of celebrating, like
what LA is known for, like all the buildings and the sprawl and
the traffic, you're like, celebrating these spaces that
are super green and maybe even drilling into like, and this
plant is special, you know, Like, very.
Yeah. Back to that, like, hyperlocal

(20:31):
specificity and this viewpoint. You can't get this from anywhere
else or I don't know. That was my kind of
interpretation of it just And that you can have like explore
in a city that is thought to be kind of knowable.

(20:52):
You know, there's like mystery even in something that's so kind
of urban and like kind of like commodified.
Like there are these faces that are untouched for now.
Yeah. And I think the for now is the
other part of my work, which is like, you know, it is of course

(21:14):
a celebration and it's like beautiful.
And I wanted to feel like that. And also there is this broader
context that like the work in all of these places actually
exist in which is this really sort of, you know,
commercialized society and real estate industry.
And that is constantly putting these places in sort of limbo or

(21:35):
like on the verge of being developed or changed into
something else. And I think I feel a lot of it
just feels like just like the silliest use of our like
collective creativity or, you know, money or time to be
changing these places into something that like, I think in

(21:56):
a lot of ways is not actually all that helpful for anyone,
anyone that needs it for sure, you know?
OK, so for listeners who aren't familiar, we're talking
specifically about your show, and I love the title, so I'm
going to read the title of your show.
It is. I wrote it down.
Sorry. Wait, do you know the title of

(22:19):
your show? It's like poetic, I thought.
I. Yeah, it's called Wall light
still falls here. Yes, beautiful title.
And it's documentation of this area in kind of like Glendale
Tahunga called No Canyon or Canyon Hills.
That's like I'm basically looking at the mountain and then

(22:40):
to the right is where that kind of set land that was basically
set aside for development. I think there was, there were
houses there before, but then they burned down.
And so now there's more open space again, like probably in
the 90s, because the one of the first times I was walking on the
trail area, I ran into someone there's, you know, there's

(23:04):
usually only like one person outthere, but, and he's like, oh,
yeah, I used to live here and like there were houses and, you
know, now it's totally overgrownand you can't see where anything
was. But apparently there were
already houses. There.
Interesting. Yeah, but then it's been quite a
while and it is like a really fire sensitive area.

(23:25):
But so I guess 2005 development Group purchased the land, kind
of did some fuzzy math around like the environmental impact
and got permits to build like a gated community which just for
contacts in the neighborhood, like down the hill from that is

(23:47):
a very tiny Main Street that is not gentrified.
It's cannot handle the like incoming like hundreds of high
net worth individuals that wouldbe coming to a gated community.
So it's kind of jarring to imagine like building this super
high end thing and then like what they would have to create

(24:10):
to like accommodate all those people and that community.
Not to say like everyone shouldn't have a home, but but
yeah. So basically that's in the
works. And then no Canyon Hills is this
activist group that is pushing it back and saying, you know, we
need to do better environmental impact reports.

(24:31):
Is this right? I'm trying to keep you from
having. To say it, 'cause there's a
lawsuit, no, you're doing great.You're doing great.
And so no Canyon Hills is reallyactivate being activated against
this development group and thereis a endangered species on the
land and a bee that is endangered in California.
So now they put a halt on any development, but it's still kind

(24:54):
of up in the air. Like is that going to be enough
to save the land? And they have a 20 year permit
so it expires this year from what I'm understanding.
Yeah, next year, 2026. 02026 OK,so all that is to say you've
spent some time documenting the land.
I've been out there. I actually wanted to hang my

(25:15):
painting because I did this on the trail like.
The trail, yeah, that's. Beautiful.
But yeah, So like, I don't know,it's super inspiring.
Beautiful land. You're looking at the verdugos,
You're surrounded by green. And then on the other side, you
can see the foothills and the sand Gabriel's.

(25:38):
So it's kind of magical. And it's hard to imagine them
cramming in a bunch of houses, You know, for anyone who cares
about nature, you're like, Oh, my God, there's, like, bunnies
everywhere and, like, birds and lizards.
And it just kind of breaks your heart to think like, oh, this
would all be gone. Yeah.
Yeah, you said it. Yes, absolutely it.

(26:01):
So how did you come to that space?
I don't want to force you into talking about it.
Too. No, no.
Let's talk about it. Yeah.
I, I, I, right after that trip to Mexico, actually, I came back
and I, you know, no Canyon Hillshave just sort of started
organizing like maybe a month before.
And I just reached out on Instagram and was like, Hey, I'm
interested in, you know, gettinginvolved however I can.

(26:22):
And it really just kind of snowballed from there.
And now it's like, just like thebest project I've been part of.
It's so beautiful. And the thing that feels like
really special to me is that it is this really sort of like
loose group of people who are bringing the thing that they're

(26:43):
interested in and like, hey, I'mreally good at this.
Can I do it? And there's no like, oh, you
know, actually we have this doorknocking shipped from 6:00 to
10:00. It's like it's a very like.
Yeah, no canvassing required. Well, yeah, it's just like, it's
like everyone is excited and bringing the thing that they're

(27:04):
really interested into this thing and offering it up.
And I think that has translated into it becoming like a, it
feels different than other sort of organizing or like
environmental things that I've been a part of because it, it is
very much like arts focused and very like, I just feel like who

(27:26):
everyone who is involved with itis really excited about it
because they get to do the thingand bring their skill or the
thing that they're excited aboutto the table and then go away.
You know, like people come in waves and they work and they do
the thing and then they leave and then someone else comes and
it's like this very sort of amorphous group of, of people

(27:47):
doing what they're excited about.
All in this all for purpose. So yeah, my time, my, my, you
know, my piece of it is that like I was helping organize and
like doing stuff and was just really inspired by all of it.
And also the, the beauty of the Verdugo Mountains, which is like
in LA, it's just crazy. I feel like people don't really

(28:10):
understand how close it is or how like a how close.
And then also how wild it reallyfeels in, in the Verdugos.
Like it's such a yeah, there's highways everywhere, burping
Glendale and then Tahunga and it's all just like right in the
middle of it. And it's this really special
like crossing point between likethe Santa Monica's and the San
Gabriels. And it has a lot of interesting

(28:32):
species that, you know, exists there in the middle of this,
like, sort of island of development all around it.
And, you know, you mentioned theplant and animal life, but
there's also, like, mountain lions that live in there.
And a big part of this is that. Yeah.
Yeah. Not in person, no.

(28:52):
OK. 'Cause I saw really big coyote
one time. Really.
Yeah. I hope you have some courage.
To like choose to go away 'causeI was kind of coming back to
where I had parked and there they were like blocking either
side of the trail that I could have gone on.
So I just had to be like, sending you love Coyote.
But also I'm not going to like go.

(29:14):
There was nowhere for me to go. So it was really, that was when
I was like, oh, this is wild. Yeah, it is really wild.
And it's also like, you know, it's like one of the last sort
of crossings for wildlife between the verdugos because
there's the two ten there and then there's like a sort of Hwy.
underpass. And if this development goes

(29:35):
through, it's just going to become like that much more
impossible basically for any sort of large animal to pass
between all of them. This is like the last piece of
land that is used as, like this thoroughfare or this highway
through, through the Purdue goes, Yeah.
Our people's pets are gonna get eaten more, you know?
I mean, they're still gonna haveto go somewhere.

(29:56):
That's the thing. Yeah, that's crazy.
I don't know. And you know, like outside of
the plant animal life, you know,you mentioned the fire risk and
it did burn in 2017 though tuna candy fire.
And it is in this sort of designated by Cal Fire as a
very, by very high fire hazard severity zone, which is the
highest sort of designation thata piece of land can get.

(30:17):
And as part of the development plan, there is only one way in
and out of the development. So there's, you know,
potentially hundreds or maybe even, you know, 1000 people
living in there and one way in and out in this intensely
hazardous area that has already burned.
And you know, as we saw like 2 weeks ago, it's just going to

(30:37):
happen more often. And to think that like it makes
any sense in the context of these fires to go through with
this development and put all these people in danger, it's
just insane to me. It doesn't.
It doesn't make it. Doesn't make any sense.
I know when, because even to getthere, you're driving through
this neighborhood that has like fairly small narrow streets and

(31:00):
it's even hard to go. Just you imagine having people
coming in both directions and then imagine trying to get out
quickly. Like there's no way.
You just can't. Like yeah, so do.
It so, I mean, people can decidewhat they want to do, but I
would feel like trapped in a basement, you know, it's like
scary. Yeah, for sure.
And, you know, outside of all the sort of like, you know, the

(31:21):
natural beauty and the wildlife and all that stuff, which I
really care about, if you just think about, you know, the, the
human and property value, which I think is sort of the thing
that is like drives a lot of these decisions.
Like just from that math, it doesn't make any sense, you
know, avoiding all of the other things.
It's just, you know, it's gonna,it's gonna burn again.

(31:41):
And there's one entrance in and out.
And they're they, they're talking about like a sort of
emergency exit also that will belocked.
And in the fire sort of impact report, they talk about like if
someone needs to go out this way, they can use bolt cutters
to open the gate in the sense ofan emergency.
And it's like, if that's your plan is to like rely on them
having bolt cutters to, to find a way out.

(32:01):
Yeah, like. Every single resident has to
have bolt cutters in case of emergency.
Yeah. So I don't know, it just feels
like the sort of mismatch between what is, you know, what
is incentivized. Like there's a lot of money at
stake here for the person that owns the development company.
And obviously this sort of, you know, system that we're all in

(32:24):
that is holds a lot of value, you know, like monetary values
sort of the thing that we're all, you know, you know, we're
all supposed to be working for like the way that the approval
process. Yeah, exactly.
And so unfortunately, like, you know, the thing that is
monetarily incentivized here doesn't make sense on an

(32:44):
ecological or a sort of human, yeah, human scale.
And that is frustrating. And I think that's a big sort of
a big part of this sort of new Canyon Hills movement is like a
rethinking of what what the systems of land care, land use
look like and how, you know, howwe can rethink it so that the

(33:07):
incentives are more focused on things that actually make sense
for the people in the community and the plants and animals in
the broader community like. Long term, I mean, sure, they
might have a couple lucky years,you know, but yeah, when you
imagine like over the course of like 50, like how long do you
want a house to stay on? Do you know?
It's like we were really lucky here in Tahunga because we're

(33:30):
very much set up like Altadena. Where we're running in the.
Mountains and it could have beenus, you know, so and I'm, you
know, like stone throw what it feels like from a bunch of
chaparral that could easily burn, you know, So it's like
just in the big picture, like, yeah, maybe it'll last 25 years,

(33:50):
but like, I don't know. It's kind of like me going to
SFAI, which has now closed. Like you don't expect something
like that to only last like 20 years or I don't know.
We were just talking about grad school and, and I was saying how
for listeners, like two of the schools I went to in San
Francisco are now one's closed and one's like kind of having

(34:15):
financial problems. And I don't know, it's like you
invest in something even let's say they were environmentally,
you know, looking at all the impacts, like the fact that
they're in a Fire Zone, you're investing and there's still no
guarantee. I don't know.
And I guess that's a good question for rebuilding an
Altadena or even like living in Tonga at all.

(34:35):
You know, I mean, how do you negotiate?
Like what is a very real risk? I don't know, I feel like we're
getting off topic. I did want to talk about this
idea of like the opportunism that's happening with the
development people and just on abroader kind of GAIL, like and

(34:56):
just not even related to the environment.
I feel like right now we're doing a lot of re evaluating of
all of our systems and the way that we as individuals have
contributed to like giving a lotof power to maybe like the
oligarch Bros, you know, or the bro oligarch, as some people are
calling them. And how it can feel kind of hard

(35:18):
to like push against something that does in the short term,
like benefit you, you know, likeordering on Amazon Prime is
really convenient and like all the Instagram and whatever, like
that's all really convenient. But then what is it serving down
the line and where's it going? You know, and trying to figure
out like, oh, we just gave like Mark Zuckerberg a lot of power

(35:41):
and he's using it in ways that now we don't support.
So like, what are their ways of creating, you know, activism
against that, you know, other than like getting off social
media platform that is really useful in a lot of ways.
So I've been thinking about thata lot.
Like how are we, how is it possible to take back power when

(36:03):
it's the, the action that it requires is inconvenient and
like not that much fun, You know, I don't know, cuz that's,
that is a lot of what we're looking at.
Like we have got so many cozy conveniences.
So like, yeah, I don't know. Do you, are you like, are you
having any pushback like about social media or is there

(36:24):
anything in your life that's kind of coming up like that?
Yeah, I wish I had a good answerfor what we should do such a
such a complicated thing because, you know, obviously I
agree. And like, I don't want to be
supporting these sort of systemsof power that I, you know, I'm

(36:47):
not super interested in. And at the same time, like, our
lives are built in a way that wehave.
But like, convenience is one thing, but like, also it's hard
to disengage from us like a system that everyone is also
part of, you know, like, and it feels really lonely and like
isolating and confusing. And it's such a shame that this

(37:09):
is the thing that like, we're all in, like plugged into.
It feels so like directly in contradiction with what feels
good to your body. Like I was going to say.
Back to what you were. Saying yeah, like.
It really takes you out of your.Body totally.
I mean, the last two weeks I think I've spent like 6 hours a
day on my phone just like panicking and I feel awful.
Like it's not, I know it. Like it doesn't feel good that

(37:31):
everyone knows it. Like no one's like this actually
feels like I love, I love scrolling.
And the alternative is I, I don't know.
I mean, I think in my own life, I try as much as possible to
find those moments of like, sortof, you know, stepping into this
third sort of space that isn't alone.
And it isn't, you know, part of this bigger thing that I, I

(37:54):
don't want to be part of. And I try and like mentally or
even just like write it down the, the things that make me
feel like connected, but also not in that way, you know, like
not connected through social media, but just like connected
with something bigger and like chase that like I, I, I really

(38:16):
am like, I'm trying to always make space for that.
And I think photography like started for me as that and it
has continued to be that thing like it.
It just makes me feel like I enter into this other, like I'm
not, I'm not interested in my phone, I'm not talking to
anyone. I'm not on social.
Like I'm so separate from everything and I'm so tuned into

(38:41):
like the world around me and, and my own body that it, I mean,
it is my work. And it's also like such an
amazing escape from, from everything else.
Yeah. And so like I, I, yeah, on a, on
a like sort of sort of societal level, I don't have a good
answer. Like I, I don't know what we do.
I'm just as much in the middle of it and confused by it.

(39:02):
And you can. Also, only choose so many causes
to be into at a time. It's it's like too hard
otherwise, you know, I. Feel like, yeah, I think that's
a great point. It's like over overload,
awareness Overload is like you actually become not really that
effective in any of it. And so, yeah, I mean, I, I, I

(39:26):
think there's a lot of value in bringing yourself back to the
thing that really gets you motivated and working instead of
trying to spread your time thin on everything that's bad.
That's what you. Said about no Canyon hills.
Finding the thing that you can do well and it's fun and easy.
I, I feel like Adrian Marie Brown wrote this book called

(39:49):
like Emergent Strategies. And I think that she talks about
the different pieces of being anactivist.
Like there's all these differentways to contribute to a
movement. And it's just like it.
You don't have to be the person who's like canvassing to make a
difference. Like you could be the
storyteller or the documentarianor, you know, there's just so

(40:12):
many ways. And so I think if if you're not
like comfortable being. Super public or if you don't
want to drop Instagram or whatever it is, I don't know.
I think there's shouldn't be like shame that you're not able
to do the most every. Time yeah yeah yeah I think I
think finding the thing that like gets you excited about like

(40:35):
doing something you know what what better way to that you can
keep trying yeah exactly 'cause it's like it's hard like it's so
it's so hard like you get so burnt out and tired and like if
you're also trying to add this other thing of like I I want to
be doing something but the thingI'm doing I don't actually
really like like you're never you're never going to be able to
have like a meaningful relationship with this with this

(40:59):
sort of worker organizing or anything.
I think anything but it's yeah, I don't know.
I think coming back to, like, giving yourself some grace and
not having to be, you know, perfect all the time.
And sometimes if you need to like, go on TikTok for two hours
and feel OK, like that's OK. Totally.
Just Yeah. Exactly.

(41:21):
Yeah. Taco.
Yeah. Yeah, Taco.
Well, so thinking about media, and this is something I was
going to ask when we were talking about your school
experience, because I went to school before Instagram, you
know, which in a lot of ways wasa real gift because there just

(41:41):
was no option. Like, I think there for grad
school, there was Facebook, but,you know, like, Instagram for
artists is like a next level of awareness of what everyone's
doing. And this like, global sharing.
And it, I think it changed like how people made art and like the
movements that were happening inany given city.

(42:02):
I really feel like there was no more like this city makes this
type of art. I feel like everybody was kind
of doing everything. But yeah, I feel really
grateful. But then, you know, it offers a
lot of benefits. So I'm curious, like, what your
experience as a photographer waslike with Instagram.
Were you on it right away when you were?

(42:22):
Because I guess you were making art, you said like from a very
young age. But then.
Yeah. Did it shift?
Yeah, that's a great question. I got Instagram.
I remember I was in chemistry class in 12th grade and all my
friends have had it for a long time and I like, I don't know, I
just never seen interesting and I got it and yeah, then I went
to college and I think the way that it like sort of affected me

(42:46):
or made me think about it is that like in.
Yeah, in school I was really, a lot of my work was interested in
and like how like self presentation or identity exists
in the real world and then also what it looks like online.
OK yeah. And it, and it felt like for me,
it was like, I mean, you know, going to college is such a

(43:07):
exercise in like understanding your own identity and how you
want to like present and how youknow who you are to these people
that you've never met. And that's like a whole that we
can do a. Different podcast about that.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it's like said, you know,
it's such an overwhelming and confusing time.
And then on top of that, it feltlike, yeah, like these these

(43:28):
sort of platforms of like curation of your own sort of
self were really becoming popular and everyone had it.
And it was like, I think it was confusing for me.
And I was I was interested in it.
And so I think like this, this, I mean, I was, I was working in
photography and so I was really curious about like how, you

(43:50):
know, how people present themselves in real life to other
people and then also like how they curate or like show
themselves online and like what a camera does to to change those
two things. And I what?
Year was this like? Yeah, I was like 2017, 2016,
20/17/2018. Got it.

(44:13):
Yeah. So that was, I feel like that
was an era in which Instagram was really idealistic, like.
Yeah, idealized. Like instead of now is dystopian
hellhole you? Know everyone's like gnarly.
Like photo in my bed without anything.
But at the time, yeah, I remember that was like the most
airbrushed. Moment.
For yeah. Yeah, it was like such a such a

(44:37):
clear like departure from what real life looks like.
I was just like, what are you doing?
Like, what is this? This is so bizarre.
No one looks like this. I don't know what the point of
it is. And also like I was really
curious in like the actual process of how people like prep
themselves for it. And so my like pieces the
Instagram. Boyfriend.
Yeah, exactly. And I, yeah, just the idea of

(45:00):
like a a camera as it's like I looking at you that you have to
prep yourself and like sort of like green and get ready for was
super interesting. And my yeah, my project in
senior year, I like I had peoplecome into a room on their own
and like basically take a self-portrait, but I also had

(45:20):
like a video camera that they didn't necessarily know about.
And so it's like this multi track video and then also the
picture that they take. And so you get to like, watch
them like, you know, sit and change their posture and like
try out facial expressions and sort of fix their hair and then
take. Yeah.
And then you get like this, thisobject, which is the photo that
they take, which is like a, you know, a moment in time that they

(45:41):
were prepping for it. But then you also get the
context that they were doing it.And.
And that was really exciting. I loved watching it so.
Squirmy. Yeah, yeah.
And I think Instagram had like, like, I don't know that.
I mean, I guess I I didn't really live in a time before,
but I feel like it had such an effect on everyone's

(46:03):
understanding of themselves. And also like the rituals that
you have to go through to, to, you know, share yourself on the
Internet, which I think is different now.
The sort of aesthetic of it. Obviously it's different.
Like it's more like whatever lo fi, like, you know, I have hair
in my face, but I think that's the same sort of thing.
Like, you know, it's, it's, we're not searching for

(46:27):
perfection here, but we're all doing the thing in a different
way. Yeah, it's you're performing it,
but. Just a few.
Rules. Yeah, yeah, it's a a total
performance and something about that is really exciting and
interesting and funny and like sweet and endearing to to me and

(46:47):
it's very. Generous you know I mean I think
cuz we all do it and even beforeInstagram, people took photos of
themselves and of their loved ones for family portraits and
sad for paintings, you know and so.
Yeah, and I'm sure the same sortof thing that's happening.
It was just so, so funny. I was going to say.

(47:09):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it also reminds me
of. Warhol screen tests, you know,
where people just kind of sit and like Smolder for.
The camp. You know, which may be a little
those are the people he chose were less self-conscious, maybe,
but the average Instagram users?They were ready for it.

(47:31):
Awkward. Yeah, for sure.
Well, and So what do? You think is keeping photography
alive because I'm not a photographer.
I wasn't trained. I so I know there's all these
different like through lines that are kind of things people
are thinking about and there's like, you know, is it true?
Is one of them, you know, is this evidence a document or is

(47:55):
it formally, you know, beautiful?
I don't know. So like what to you is keeping
photography relevant as like a kind of self generating?
I don't know, like is it kind ofrenewing or do you feel like
there's like, what are the the like limits right now?
I don't know, give us like the 411 hot take on photography.

(48:17):
On photography, Yeah. That's a good question.
I think honestly, like I don't think it is.
I mean, I, I like, I think everything is sort of constantly
changing and I don't think that it's dying at all.
Like I think if anything, it's more interesting than ever.
Maybe like I think in the context of sort of like this new

(48:39):
a art, generative, generative ARart like photography almost to
has like less like is less beholding to the truth or to
the, you know, like now that it's sort of indistinguishable
in some senses between like whatis an actual place or what is
like just the computer spit it out, which I think is, you know,

(49:01):
that's a whole lot of podcast. Also.
I think it's like even it's you know, it's unshackled even more.
And I think people can be even more like bring themselves to
it. Like, I think the work that is
most interesting to me is like when it feels like someone has
really has really brought themselves to it and are not

(49:24):
trying to like share, you know, share, share work that they
think you will like in this instead, just like work that is
really special to them and that that feels like the most.
It's weird because it's like through the furthest away from
me, maybe like I don't, I've never lived this life.
I don't understand it and I've never seen it.
But in a way it's like easier torelate to if you can really feel

(49:47):
the person in it. And I'm really interest.
I mean, like I am a photographer, but I'm, it's
funny, my bio like I have a bunch of other things that like
I do a lot of like I have a lot of other interests.
And I think like writing is alsoa big part of it.
And I have been excited by photobooks recently that also have

(50:09):
some sort of writing or like archival or bringing other stuff
in. And I think that like in this,
you know, in this sort of era where the Internet is so
fractured and constant and like,there's just like this deluge of
information at all times, I think the people that can parse
through it and like, bring, bring different things together

(50:33):
in a way that feels like it's lifting all of it up together.
I love it. Like, it's really exciting.
Do you have any? Examples of artists you really.
Like, yeah, there's a new, I mean, there's a book that
someone I started with last yearput out.
Her name is Andrea Parlato. She's a photographer and she
teaches at RIT. And she put out a book called

(50:59):
Who Is Living and Who's Dead? I think it's right here on my
bookshelf. And who's changed, and who's
dead, and who is changed? And who is dead?
Yeah, I can figure a lot. Later, Oh yeah, YouTube.
Go to YouTube and to see this book.
Yeah, this one right here. Oh, cool.

(51:19):
And. I like the cover.
She, yeah, she's a photographer and she also wrote for it.
And it's like a a sort of exploration of like motherhood
and what being a daughter was like and also sort of family
grief. And it's written in sort of
letters to her daughters and to her mom.

(51:41):
And there's photographs and still lives.
And it is like this really amazing, sort of like, I don't
know, it just brings all these sort of materials and viewpoints
and thoughts together in a way that they really feel like
they're working in service of one another and not like
something else. And I, I don't know, I think

(52:05):
like, like, you know, everyone is a photographer now, which is
like kind of fun. That was.
Like a Patti Johnson quote, likePatti Johnson.
Do you remember her art of city?She's like a New York based like
does a lot of like professional development for artists.
But she she said that like probably around the time you
were in school, like, and we were all like, what is

(52:27):
happening? You know, and she's like,
everyone's a photographer because of Instagram.
And so I guess that's why I was curious, like, how do you see
it? And do you feel proprietary over
like I was trained? I mean, not you don't see that
way at all. But you know, you think there's
a difference, like between the Instagram post and like what

(52:50):
you're trying to do. I honestly, I really don't see
that. I don't, I don't think the huge
difference. I think the difference is like
an intentionality between like what someone is trying to do
with it and if it is on purpose and they thought about it and
there's like context that they're working in.
And, or if it's just like, you know, I made an Instagram post,
but I didn't really. I think that's, that's the
difference. Yeah, exactly.

(53:11):
But like technique or training, like, no, I, I don't, I don't
think, I don't think there's a whole lot there.
But I do think it's funny. Like I think there's two
different things, which is like sort of a fine art practice and
photography. And then like, you know, working
like a being a working professional in like commercial
photography, right. And yeah, 'cause you.
Do that as well. Yeah, that's like a whole, like

(53:32):
holding those two things in my head together is like confusing
a little bit because I think my opinion on both of them is like
a little different. Like 1 is no, I don't care about
training. Like if you're making art and
you're earnest, like you're intentional about it, like good
for you, Amazing. Like I'm so in support of it.
And then I think I'm like this sort of commercial side, not

(53:53):
that training matters, but I think that like the, the, I
think the thing that sort of Instagram and like cell phones
and, you know, making it really easy and cheap to be a
photographer commercially has done.
Is that like the client expectations in the commercial
world and the rates in the sort of whole production side of it
has really changed for, I mean, not just me, like I, you know,

(54:15):
everyone that is doing this. And I think it happened really
quick. Like I, I, I, I think being a
commercial photographer has, youknow, you're paid less than ever
and you're expected to give morethan ever and like, sort of, you
know, rights and licensing. Like, all of that is like, why,

(54:38):
why would I pay you a license for this?
Because, you know, my cousin with an iPhone is going to do a
TikTok for it and said it. Yeah.
Which is frustrating. But also, like, you know, I
think there is some value in being like, OK, you know, things
have changed. It's not going to be the 90s
anymore. And.
Yeah, if this is shifting, I also feel like I, I don't want

(55:00):
to be like some grouchy, you know, old guy who is like when I
was younger. I, you know, I can't, I can't do
this anymore. Money that supported me.
Yeah. And I think, yeah, I think
there's a way to recognize that it's like a real, a real shame
and a real shift. And I think a lot of people are
struggling right now, especiallyin Lai mean outside of the photo
industry. But just like the film, and I

(55:21):
think all of it is changing and I think it's all so.
Crazy to watch. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. And so it feels like we're in
this sort of like shaky transition point and no one
really knows how it's going to work out.
And I don't either, but I think there's so.
Disheartening as part of the fine art world where I always

(55:43):
thought, oh wow, like, you know,the various LA industries, it's
creativity with like bumpers, you know, like they have guides
around what is possible. And so they get a sustainable
wage or, you know, if you're part of a union, like you have
protections and, and they do, but like, I don't know, you

(56:05):
know, it's looking like things are getting less and less
secure, which is something that as fine artists, we've been
dealing with for a long time. And whereas I'm like, no, we
need to get the fine art world, like, you know, the art market
or whatever to have more restrictions.
So we're kind of more protected,but it feels like it's going in
the opposite direction. For everything else.

(56:26):
So I don't know how that's all going to work.
I know, I know. It's really, yeah, I always just
come back to like, you got to really love it to keep it, to
keep it going. Like this is not a, a
sustainable way of life if you're not like obsessed with
it, you know, like it, it has tobe the thing that makes you.
I don't know. It has to be outside of the sort

(56:50):
of financial security of it because it, I mean, I don't
know, I'm 28 like, but it's never, I've never know.
About life. No, I'm just kidding.
Nothing. I will know nothing.
And that's the point I think like I, I don't know.
I know nothing. And like, I've, I've learned
that like, you know, I probably will never and that's OK.
And I have to be OK with that. I think none of us really know

(57:13):
what we're in for like given if the last like 2 weeks or any
evidence like we're yeah, it's pretty much bets are all off.
Always changing, yeah. Well, so you're gonna have like
a closing reception coming up onthe second.
Do you wanna just talk a little bit about your show and like for
sure A. Little promo.

(57:34):
Yeah, I would love to. So I have a show up right now at
Monta Vista Projects, which is downtown in LA.
It's in the fashion district in a building called the Bendix
Building. And it's been up for a couple
weeks and is going to be coming down.
Our last day of having it up is the second, which is Sunday.
But we'll we're going to have a closing reception on the 1st,

(57:56):
which is this Saturday from 7:00to 10:00.
So I'll be there. Hopefully other people will be
there. If anyone wants to come by, that
would be great. I'd love to meet you in person.
And the show, yeah, the show is all sort of inspired by the work
of the No Gaining Hells. And it's a.

(58:19):
It's just like my, yeah, my sortof thinking about the, you know,
the Verdugo Mountains and what it what it feels like there and
how the context of the sort of development and changing
landscape of LA as a whole is really shifting that.
And it's just five big, big pieces.

(58:39):
I think when I was talking with with Christine Atkinson, who's
part of one of his projects and sort of curated this, who's also
an amazing artist and everyone should check her out, We were
trying to decide like sort of how to present this work.
And the thing that we, we sort of settled on or we're talking
about is this, this idea betweenlike both sort of, you know,

(59:03):
fragility and like something that is changing and something
that is like very concrete and unshiftable, Which I think when
you're, when you're in the land,when you're in the Purdue rosary
and you Purdue a crestline or whatever, it feels like this
place, it changes season to season, obviously.
But it's like, you know, this islike this is the mountain.
You can't imagine it being something else and for the first

(59:24):
time and, you know, thousands ofyears, like, it will, you know,
there's a real chance that it's going to be changed to something
else. And so that's sort of like
dynamic between something that is, yeah, unshiftable and also
like, really fragile. And so there are these big
pieces that are sort of framed in Douglas Burger, which is sort
of cabinet material and reconstruction.

(59:47):
Oh, thank you this weekend. And I really.
Like cool framed. It Yeah.
Oh, thank you so much. Yeah, my friend Liam Montano,
who's a woodworker, did them andthey're amazing.
They're so beautiful. So they're, yeah, they're big
prints in these frames and there's no glass in front of
them. We wanted to sort of.
I like that move actually. I felt like it warmed it up to
have this wood frame and then nokind of distance between you and

(01:00:11):
the image. Yeah, yeah.
It was like a real. We wanted to take out any sort
of barrier between this place and between you and to make it
feel like this object that has alot of weight, but that is, you
know, might get dented or scuffed or sun damaged or, you
know, like it's a real thing. Just like this place is a real
thing. And also, you know, we only, we

(01:00:34):
only printed 5 and made them pretty big.
Because I feel like sometimes something that I do is like when
there is a lot of information, Ialmost get lost in it.
Or like I find myself like beingable to disengage and like, look
at something else like, oh, that's too, too painful.
I don't want to look that like I'll, I'll search for something
else. And with these five, we wanted
them to feel like really big andsort of like almost

(01:00:56):
confrontational in a way, like not aggressive, not in the
aggressive connotation, but like, just like you're stuck
with it. Like there's nowhere else to
really go or, you know, turn away from.
There's not a lot of material inthe space and and there's some
detail. You know, with the especially
like the big landscape, you wantthat bigger size to be able to

(01:01:17):
kind of dig into like all the textures and.
Yeah. So you have to sit with it a
little bit. Yeah.
So I'd love if anyone came, theywere, again, framed by Liam and
then printed a Los Angeles printshop, which is downtown also.
They're amazing, amazing prints.And Esteban, who works there,
is, like, the most patient and helpful person.

(01:01:39):
He, like, brought me through so many test prints.
Oh. That's cool.
Yeah, so it's it's been really exciting.
It is my first solo show, which has been great.
Oh, Congrats. Yeah, thank you.
And it will be up till the 2nd, so come on by on the first.
Yeah, all. Right, cool.
And people can find you. You have a website, Instagram.

(01:02:01):
All of it, yeah. It's all just my name.
Rio Ash phoenix.com and then at at Rio Ash Phoenix I put.
Links in show notes but ash it'slike ASCH.
ASCH yeah, my dad made that confusing.
It's cool. It's kind of separate.
Is that like a reference to something specific or?

(01:02:24):
Just no. It's his last name, yeah.
Oh, OK, cool. Yeah, and then Phoenix is my
mom's last name. They just stuck them together.
Yeah, that's. Cool, Yeah.
And then Cannon Hills, just to give a quick shout out, the
reality of the sort of movement right now is that the
organization is being sued by the developer and unfortunately,

(01:02:50):
like it now means that we they have to fundraise and prepare
for this legal defense. And so, you know, it's my
opinion that like it's all sort of to divert resources away from
the work that they're doing and like the attention that they're
getting, which is a real frustrating place to be in.

(01:03:12):
But I think if anyone is watching this and like is
interested in getting involved, you know, one thing that is
really helpful right now, unfortunately, it's just sort of
monetary help. We have a GoFundMe for the legal
defense fund. But also, like, as I said
before, like it's it's, it's this, this project that like

(01:03:32):
bring were, you know, it's a project where like you can
really just bring the thing thatyou're interested in and do it.
Like it's always collaborative and always, you know, no one
says no. It's just like come and do the
thing. So if you're feeling sort of
disconnected from anything and you have have some some skill

(01:03:53):
that you're interested in bringing, please do.
Yeah. So I'll put a link to that as
well. And I'm going to put the GPS tag
for where I like to park. And cause for people in LA, it's
a beautiful hike and there is like a public path that's
technically a road that goes to a couple houses out there.

(01:04:13):
There's like one older man with his dog.
Have you seen this man with his dog?
He's got this super. Shaggy dog that's like.
I think I have, yeah, yeah. Like a little grumpy, yeah, but
yeah, so I'm going to put a Geo tag to that so people can like
walk on the legal public Rd., don't go off road, but.

(01:04:36):
Yeah, where do you go, Crestline?
Go for a little path, go for a little walk and you can kind.
Of see what we're talking about?It's really gorgeous.
Yeah, and, you know, go, go there, go anywhere, go to the
Verdugos. Just so I like cannot ask people
to go more often. It's so close and it's so
beautiful and you know, it's Gannon Hills right now, but it

(01:04:56):
might be another place next yearor in two years.
And so it's not, it's not necessarily just this place.
It's like, you know, the broadersystem that's saying this is
this is the thing that we need to do that I think we should all
sort of have a deeper think about.
Yeah, cool. Well, thank you so much, Rio.

(01:05:19):
This was awesome. And awesome.
I'm rooting for you. And thanks, Devo.
Yeah, awesome. Thank you so much for having me.
This has been really fun. Cool.
Cool. All right.
See you later. Bye.
That's all for this week's episode.
Thank you so much for listening.This is your host, TiVo with

(01:05:39):
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