101 LOSS COUNTDOWN: 60 down, 41 to go

#123. Can hope be found in 101 different types of loss? 

We're well on our way to finding out, as we reach another milestone! 

We've hit loss number 60 on our mission to explore 101 different types of permanent loss, meaning we only have 41 (!) to go. Now over halfway to our goal.

In this episode, we (Chris & Claire Sandys) pause briefly to discuss life in general (something new we thought we'd try!), the last batch of losses (51-60), and what nuggets of wisdom we've taken from each guest.

We're loving every second of talking to others on this podcast, but we're also learning a lot about healthy ways to process our own grief, whether childlessness, pets, relatives, friends, health, or even just the day-to-day losses we sometimes face.

And the not-yet-famous-but-might-be-one-day 'Hermontage' is back! As we, once again, mix together the last 10 guests' Hermans. If you don't know what a Herman is, check out the link below.

Huge thanks to Thea Rickard, Mark Field, Laura Burns, Lisa Newman, Kay Backhouse, Jared Altic, Rachel Hart, Dannie-Lu Carr, Ken Anderson and Bex Eyles.

If you'd like to see our guests and encourage them, pop over to our social media for the latest collage of their lovely faces and hit 'like'.

Full list of our 101 losses: https://www.thesilentwhy.com/101losses

Send us a text

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Thank you for listening.

Episode Transcript

Chris (00:02):
Take two Action 60 down 41 to go.

Claire (00:08):
Here

Chris (00:08):
Literally.
We just started recording thisepisode and our recording
programme stopped randomly aftertwo minutes, so we are
literally doing this again andwe noticed after about 20
minutes of the most incredibleaward-winning showcase of a
brilliant podcast conversationand I looked at the screen and
thought it recording it's frozen

Claire (00:28):
All gone anyway, anyway welcome to The Silent Why, if
you're new, we're a childlessnot by choice couple hosting a
podcast that is on a mission tofind 101 different types of loss
and to hear from those who'veexperienced them.
Usually we are moreprofessional than this and we
don't have to do two takes, butI'm Claire.

Chris (00:46):
Hello Claire, I'm Chris.
So we're now well over halfwaythrough our search for 101
different losses.
We're at number 60 and everytime we reach sort of a 10th
loss, we record an episode likethis we reflect back on the last
10, play their Hermans to recapon what those guests, those
individuals, wanted us to learnfrom their experience.

Claire (01:06):
Yep, and in just over three and a half years of
podcasting we've put out 213episodes, and there is plenty
more to come.
So don't worry, we're not goinganywhere just yet.
And you can see the full listof all our losses at
thesilentmycom slash 101losses,where I put a link to every
episode and a picture of ourguests as well, if you want to
see what they look like.
So have a guess.
What do you think is our mostpopular episode?

(01:27):
So far?

Chris (01:27):
I had the most downloads well, um, I had a guess.
I'm not going to fake my answer, because we did this in the
first recording don't ruin that.
I was going to do it live againwell, my guess you were you did
guess correctly, to be fair myguess was and is I don't
remember the the number, though,so it's a couple of years back.
I'm going to guess it wasaround loss number in the 20s

(01:51):
probably Anna Whiston Donaldson.
She lost her son who was Ican't remember his age Twelve,
twelve, okay who was swept awayin a flood that happened where
they lived in a brook thatswelled up quite violently and
he died.
And she has a big following,big support network.
She has written a book and it'samazed us over the last couple

(02:15):
of years how often people arecoming in to listen to that
episode.

Claire (02:19):
Yeah, and I don't know if that is because it's out
there somewhere linked to herfollowing or if it's the topic
that people are just interestedin, because we've had people
with bigger followings.
So it's not always about, like,the size of the following.
But yeah, I don't know.
But it is the most popular andyou were close with your lost
number.
It was 10.
Oh really.

Chris (02:36):
Yeah, oh, it was 10 out, at least 10 spirit.

Claire (02:44):
It is not.
No, it is nowhere near.
Third Not even on my list.

Chris (02:49):
Fourth no Charming.

Claire (02:50):
Right Now.
I've noticed that some podcastsat the beginning they have a
little chat about how life isgoing with the hosts and what's
happening, and I quite like thatsection, so I thought we'd try
it here.

Chris (02:59):
That's because you're a caring person.
Maybe Others are maybe fastforwarding that.
Get on with it.

Claire (03:03):
I think I'm just nosy.
I just like to see what'shappening.

Chris (03:05):
Yeah.

Claire (03:06):
So yeah, how are you?

Chris (03:08):
Well, on a day like today , where the sky is blue and the
sun is shining, and the birds infact, because normally we stick
up a whacking great bit offoam- in the window near where I
sit to try and make the sound abit better in this room, but we
haven't right now, so hang on,bit of background noise, bit of

(03:36):
bird Ah, how nice is that?
That is nice, and it's notfreezing cold.
So it's felt like for the last47,000 months.
We've just had grey, overcast,damp weather in Britain, and
that affects everyone's mood,doesn't it?
The country's not the brightestplace, but to days like today
it feels a lot better.
In fact, I was thinking aboutthis, that, uh, you asked how I
was and I'm.

(03:57):
I'm struggling a little bit withvertigo at the moment, which I
had a spell of vertigo fiveyears ago, four years ago and
then it went and hasn't reallycome back.
A few little twinges, but ithasn't.
It returned about two weeks agoand hasn't left since, maybe
three weeks ago now actually,and it doesn't affect me
massively.
But I get these little spellsof dizziness where everything

(04:20):
spins, which are particularlybrought on if I sort of tip my
head backwards or I move tooquickly, or if I, if I'm laying
down in bed, it's on my righthand side, so if my head is
turned to the right 45 degreesor so and I lay down, everything
spins and then settles down,and I've been doing something
called the Brandt-Daroffmaneuver, which I'm doing every
day to try and put this right,and so you're forcing yourself

(04:42):
to lie down on both sides, waitfor it to spin, settle all that
sort of stuff, and then I get upand I'm so.
I'm mostly okay, but every nowand again things spin and I
don't like that so much, andthat is probably where I am this
year spinny mostly okay and attimes lay down too quickly and
the room spins that if thatmakes sense.

Claire (05:04):
Yeah, it's not fun.
How about yourself?
Yes, similarly, health, notwhere I'd want it to be.
I think in the last podcastepisode we mentioned I was
having a new treatment and wewere hopeful for this year, and
we still are, but I'm not thereyet.
So I've had the HRT implant putin, which gives me hormones via
an implant that they insertinto a small incision on your
stomach, and yeah, yeah, we'llsee.

(05:27):
We're hopeful for it, but it'snot there yet we were excited,
weren't we?

Chris (05:30):
I mean if the amount of times you've had a treatment and
something.
And there's this whole sort ofthing where most of the time,
you feel the effects withinwhatever, and you so often I
don't want to speak these thingsover as in any way, but it
feels like you are so often inthe minority that if it can go
well, great.
But for us, no.

(05:51):
So this implant should havebeen something that well, it
could have been something thatwe were excited that would make
a big difference quite quickly,quite radically.
And here we are stillquestioning is is it having any
effect at all?

Claire (06:05):
yeah, I mean it is and it will.
I do believe it will.
We're just not there yet soI've just got to wait a bit
longer.
But the frustrating thing isthat there's just so much I want
to do with the podcast and sothere's a large amount of guilt
sort of sitting there.
I haven't put out any socialmedia apart from the new
episodes going out to promotethose.
I'd love to be doing more inbetween, like I used to, but I

(06:27):
just can't bring myself.
I'm not posting on any socialmedia much, really.
I haven't done much with theHerman account, which I'd like
to have done.
I'd like to do more blogs.
I've got episodes I want to putout around the podcast that I
just haven't got my new word,bandwidth, to put out.

Chris (06:41):
That is a new word.

Claire (06:43):
I like this word.
Someone else used it somewhereand I was like, yes, I like that
.
I don't have the bandwidth forcertain things that just you
know on the internet.
Sometimes it's stuttery anddoesn't work.

Chris (06:52):
That's how I feel I'm stuttery the good news I've just
negotiated a new broadband dealfor us which starts the end of
March.
It's going to triple ourbandwidth.
Wow, yeah great.

Claire (07:00):
I'm sure that will help me massively.
That's what I need.
I need an implant thatincreases my bandwidth.
So, yeah, so there's a lot I'dlike to be doing that I'm not
doing.
So it's that constant level andI know a lot of people, even in
normal life, without anyhormone or health issues, will
feel the guilt of social mediaand trying to do more with
businesses and things.
So that is difficult, I think,across the board.
But yeah, I really have troublejust trying to put it aside and

(07:23):
be like it's okay, you know,there's no pressure, I don't
have to.
But at the same time it'sdifficult because I sort of want
to, but then I go and do it andI can't quite.
So, yeah, but then you see, youknow there's little things.
This morning I watched a videoon social media of a man, like
an older man in America, who wasbeing given this birthday
present on his porch and theywere filming him because it was
going to change his life.
So I was watching him unwrapthis box.

(07:45):
I was like, what is it?
What is it?
And he gets out a pair ofglasses like sunglasses, and
they're like put them on, putthem on.
So he puts them on and and thenhis little arms start wiggling
and um, and then he sort ofstarts to cry and doesn't know
what to do with himself.
And basically, these glasses.
He'd been born colorblind andthese glasses gave him the
ability to see in color.
So he was looking around him ateverything with this sort of
wonder and I just thought, yeah,you know, there's so much we

(08:09):
take for granted and there's somuch to be grateful for, even
when things aren't going well.
And you know, I look out nowand, like you said, the sky is
blue, which has been rare for us.
It's been grey and rainy andwet and miserable, like it often
is here, just to see the bluesky, the leaves, everything I
could see out the window.
There's so much colour.
That's something to be verygrateful for.

Chris (08:28):
Yeah, lovely, I love the sound of that.
It does feel like, I think,being your husband and watching
you.
It does feel like life for youdoesn't have vibrant colour much
.
It feels like you do see insort of sepia or black and white
.
I don't know if that's fair,but you're a very gratitude-y
person.

Claire (08:44):
Oh, I never been called gratitude-y before.

Chris (08:48):
What's the word Gratitude ?
Well, you're thankful.
Yeah, that's one thing.
I can say that even in yourlowest moments, you're still so
thankful for what we have, forwhere we are, for the comforts
around, for the space that youhave.
And it's horrible to hear youtalk about the guilt that you
feel for doing things likesocial media posts.
I mean, that's just for thosethat are just trying to drive a

(09:10):
business.
Really, this isn't a business.
This is a pleasure for us.
So it's horrible when you feelthat guilt, but you do counter
that you are a very thankfulperson thank you you're welcome
in my head.

Claire (09:22):
I see a lot of people out there that are grieving and
really struggling and if they'vefound the podcast in some way
or they've found our socialmedia, I feel like it's my
responsibility to offer themhelp, like, you're OK, don't
worry.
So I feel like there's peopleout there that need me and I
know that Laurie will belistening and being like, oh,
that's your Enneagram 2 speakingand maybe it is so.
I need to put that aside.

(09:42):
That's not the reality of it,obviously, but there's that fear
in me that if somebody needshelp in some way and I haven't
done it or I've let the sidedown on my side, that that's not
good.
So, yeah, there's probably somepressure there that I can
release from myself.
But yeah, and I think you know,overall, when I'm in this sort
of place, it does affect how youthink cognitively and it can
make you feel a bit down aboutthings sometimes and I have to

(10:04):
be careful then that griefdoesn't come in from other areas
I might have dealt with or Imight not have dealt with and
start to just add to the burdenreally of things.
So, like in the last three, fourmonths, I've heard of three
babies being born or beingconceived to couples that didn't
have children or couldn't havechildren or have had
difficulties with havingchildren.
I haven't had any of those fora long time.

(10:25):
So I think even things likethat they just make you think
like, oh, what am I missing outon?
Not necessarily the wholehaving children as such, but
something changing, somethingbig in their life, some good
news to tell people.
I'm so desperate to contact ourfamily or friends or anyone and
say, oh, my word, I've got someamazing news.

(10:45):
I would love to do that.
It really makes me emotionalwhen I watch people on TV
winning competitions, doingthings well, having these
moments where it's just pure joy.
I'm just like, oh gosh, I'mjust so desperate for one of
those.
Maybe we'll get there.
I'm hopeful, so that's the mainthing.

Chris (10:59):
I haven't lost hope you mentioned before on the podcast.
I think about.
Haven't lost hope, mentionedbefore on the podcast.
I think about the importance ofbirthdays for us, because that
point you make about beingcelebrated in a way is really
important for us, that birthdaysare all we have really I don't
think I'm being dramatic are allwe have as a reason for people
to celebrate us.
So it pains us when you know ifpeople's birthdays are just one

(11:23):
of many times and theytherefore downgrade birth.
I'm not getting old, I'm notbothering with birthdays.
Is that actually it's the onlytime that we have that gives
others cause to celebrate us.
We don't share good news.
We don't share big sort of worknews, big family news.
We don't have those momentsthat our families naturally
gather around and celebrate.
So birthdays is what it is.

(11:43):
So, family, let's have somebirthday cards this year.

Claire (11:47):
I have actually been more.
I've been a bit more brutalwith birthdays and anniversaries
and things.
I used to be somebody who triedto message everybody on their
anniversary, on their birthday.
As the year's gone by, thisyear I've deleted anybody's
reminder for their birthday oranniversary, that we never hear
from for our anniversaries andbirthdays, which is not like oh,

(12:10):
I'm upset with you.
It's more just a case of Ican't take the burden of so many
other people to keep messagingand celebrating.

Chris (12:12):
Yeah, it's exhausting to keep giving out and partly
driven by me turning aroundevery now and again and being
like claire, we've gotsomebody's birthday in the
calendar.
We're not seeing them for 14years.
Is it okay if we stop?
Yeah, you're like, yeah, okay,take, take it out great well, I
take it out.

Claire (12:26):
Like you know.
It says this and, followingwhen you delete a recurring
thing, I do that so it's alwaysin the past.
It's still there, I still knowwhen it is, if I need it, and
you know, talking about thingsto celebrate.
This year.
We've been married for 20 years, which is a big thing, and
we're going to do an episodenear our anniversary on that and
what it's been like 20 years ofmarriage tips and you know how
to get there, what, what we'velearned along the way, because I

(12:48):
think that is something that'sit is to be celebrated, but we
also need to just be, you know,be proud of ourselves, because
that's taken a lot of work andchildlessness does split
marriages.
A lot of people just don't getthrough to this length of time
because of all kinds ofdifferent troubles or falling
out or, you know, falling out oflove or whatever like that.
So, yeah, that is something,and so everything.
Every time we do somethingspecial this year, like last

(13:10):
week, we were in London and wewent up the shard and had a meal
we're trying to make everythingwe do like let's make it about
our 20th anniversary.
So this year we're trying to dosome special things.
I did actually hear somebodyrecently on a podcast say that
they were doing before their30th birthday.
The year before they decided todo 30 things that were fun and
different to tick them all offand she said it was a great year

(13:30):
.
I thought, ah, maybe we shoulddo that.
I think we could easily reach20, 20 fun things in our year
that we have done, that we cantick off and say we did that.

Chris (13:38):
Well, that'd be fun.

Claire (13:39):
Yeah, I've got that on my radar because we're planning
our trip to Australia, hopefullylater in the year.
I reckon we could get like 15just on that trip, so it'll be
easy one to do yeah, okay, wecould put a list together anyway
, thanks for indulging me in ouruh, how are we doing section
yeah, good to hear.

Chris (13:54):
Okay.
So before we get cracking onchatting about the last 10
episodes, let's take a moment toremind ourselves who our last
10 guests were by hearing theirintroductions.

Thea Rickard (14:05):
I'm Thea and I lost my dad, who I'm still not
sure if I really loved.

Mark Field (14:11):
Hi, my name's Mark Field, I'm a cardiac surgeon and
I'm here to talk about loss inheart surgery.

Laura Burnes (14:18):
Hi, I'm Laura and I'm here to talk about hair loss
through alopecia.
Hi, I'm Lisa and I'm here totalk about hair loss through
alopecia.

Lisa Newman (14:24):
Hi, I'm Lisa and I'm here to talk about loss
through addiction.

Kay Backhouse (14:29):
Hi, I'm Kay and I'm here to talk about the
complex death of my youngestbrother, sid.

Jared Altic (14:33):
My name is Jared Altick and I'm a chaplain with
the police department, and.

Rachel Hart (14:40):
I'm called out in the middle of the night to help
deal with loss.
Hi, I'm Rachel.
I'm talking about the loss ofmy husband to suicide when I was
five months pregnant.

Dannie-Lu Carr (14:46):
I'm Danny Lukar and I'm here to talk about
precocious puberty and the lossof agency that that gave me over
my body over the many yearsthat followed.

Ken Anderson (14:53):
My name is Ken and I'm here to talk about the loss
of my police career, which ledto my loss of self-worth.

Bex Eyles (14:59):
Hi, my name's Bex and I'm here to talk about loss and
grief that I've experiencedduring joyful life transitions.

Claire (15:08):
Okay, so another 10 losses.
There they are.

Chris (15:11):
Good to hear, isn't it?
And real variety, real varietyin this 10.

Claire (15:14):
I love it when you hear their voices come together,
because it's like a real sort offamily and I'm really excited
when we've done 101.
I mean it will be an editingnightmare, but I want to put all
of their intros together yes,we need to hear all of them I
want to hear them all together.
I'll do it, I'll speed it up, soit's super fast oh, that will
be like 15 minutes just ofintroductions well, no, I'll

(15:36):
speed it up super fast, but Ijust want to hear them all
together.
I love seeing all their facestogether.
When I do a post like I'll dofor this episode on social media
, I put the photos of the last10 episodes on there so you can
see them, and I always lovedoing those kind of putting them
all together.
So yeah that's really cool.
The first thing that we need tocomment on really is the fact
that last time we did a batch of10, we weren't even halfway

(15:57):
through 101.
And this time we're overhalfway.

Chris (16:01):
Exciting, Very exciting.
Is it exciting?
Yes, or are you like?
Oh, now we're on the other side.
We're sort of coming towardwe're not coming towards the end
, but we're closer to the endthan we are the beginning.

Claire (16:10):
Yeah, I did have a listener message me and he was
like oh no, no, don't finish,like don't get to the end.
He was a bit worried about thatand I had to reassure him.
It had taken me three and ahalf years to get halfway
through, so he's got plenty oftime left.

Chris (16:24):
A few decades.
Welcome to the Silent Y podcast.
We're on a mission to find 710losses 700?

Claire (16:34):
No, I'm not doing that.
Yes, so there's plenty of timeleft.
Nobody needs to worry about usgoing anywhere, and because
we're putting episodes out everyother week now it's slowed it
right down.
So in the the past we could bedoing 10 in 10 weeks, but
obviously now it's 20 weeksminimum so, and that's half a
year nearly so yeah, there'splenty of plenty of time left

(16:54):
for this podcast.

Chris (16:55):
Well, I'm really impressed with, yeah, the
variety of the last 10.
We've covered a lot of groundwith a real mix of experiences
with some brilliant, brilliantguests yeah, it's a really good
mix.

Claire (17:04):
When I put these together, I was really sort of
proud of us for the the mix oflosses, because we've said from
day one that loss is not justabout bereavements and although
they are the big things that hitall of us in our life and you
know, they're definitely some ofthe harder ones that we go
through perhaps, but they're notthe only ones we go through and
there are other losses that arejust as difficult, and this 10

(17:26):
is a great example of the typesof things and losses we can have
or the ways we can lose peoplethat might make it particularly
difficult or hard to go through.

Chris (17:35):
So yeah, it's a really, really nice batch it started
with something in episode loss,episode 51.
Something happened halfwaythrough.
Oh, yes, yeah, we paused,didn't we to 51, something
happened halfway through.

Claire (17:45):
Oh, yes, yeah, we paused , didn't we, to celebrate that
we?

Chris (17:47):
are halfway through the halfway point 101.

Claire (17:50):
And we could only really do that, I think, because Thea
Rickard, who was that episode onloss of a dad and in brackets
that I don't know if I loved.
So it was an interesting one,very complicated relationship
with her father.
He was an alcoholic and hadlots of different issues to work
through.
So it was a very toughrelationship.
But you knew her from kind of awork contact link a while back.

(18:11):
So because we knew her, I thinkI felt more comfortable in the
middle of that episode pausingto say yeah, we got through
halfway through For some losses.
If it had been a really hard ordifficult one, I don't think it
would have been appropriate.
Of course we'd have beensensitive to that.
But it happened to work outwell that we knew Thea and she'd
already shared her story online, so it wasn't a brand new one.

(18:32):
So, yeah, it was yeah, but areally interesting one that I
hope a lot of people will findif they're in that situation,
because we do assume when youlose somebody, we do assume when
you lose somebody, especially aparent maybe, that there was a
loving relationship there andfor a lot of people that is not
the case.
It's way more complicated andthey might even have to be
pretending they got on well withthem and that they're grieving,

(18:52):
or they're grieving quite hard,but they're sort of pretending
they're not because they didn'tget on with them, and people
might question that.

Chris (19:07):
And so, yeah, a lot of things going on there.
We all know what it feels liketo read about or be at the
funeral of someone who died andall you hear really is the good
stuff generally, isn't it Evenin the news, when you know that
criminal masterminds are being abit silly now, but where people
have died they've been caughtup in gang crime or whatever
else.
It's only the good stuff.
It's the tributes, it's thefamilies's paying honor, marking
the risk, you know, respect,paying respects to that

(19:28):
individual.
So it's the good stuff thatcomes out how good a brother
they were or father they were,even though you know generally
they were leading quite anaughty lifestyle yeah, I mean I
can understand why it doesn'thappen, but it would probably be
helpful for majority of thepopulation to know that.

Claire (19:41):
You know, if someone said, oh yes, I've just lost so
and so he was really hard tolove.
We had a very difficultrelationship.
We were often fighting.
He got caught up in some stuffhe shouldn't have been caught up
in.
It made life at home verydifficult.
We're really going to miss himand we loved him.
But you know it's difficult.
That would be an honestportrayal of somebody that a lot
of people would connect withand understand more than maybe,

(20:02):
like you said, here's thisganglord that's died and his
mum's there saying he was alovely boy and it's like, well,
possibly he wasn't because heshot somebody last.
You know something like that.
So you're sort of a bitsceptical anyway.
But yeah, you're right, wenever hear much.
I mean, occasionally I'm atfunerals when I'm doing verging
and I'll hear some people sayyou know, oh, he was really
difficult, they were an amazingperson and everything was great.

(20:30):
And yeah, it can make youprobably feel a bit left out if
you're sat there and you haven'tgot that relationship with that
kind of member of the family.

Chris (20:36):
Well, for the individual like Thea, it's complicated when
you lose a close family memberFor her it was her dad and to
not know how to grieve thatreally, because how much do you
miss them from the heart, howmany fond memories do you have
on them, how big a hole werethey leaving your life?
Other people will be probablysupporting yous in wow, your

(20:59):
dad's died.
That's mega.
How'd you feel it's like?
Well, you know, can you say Ihave no idea.
He was a really difficultcharacter and she was so
eloquent and she spoke about itso well.
It was a real fascinatingepisode that was lost episode
number 51.

Claire (21:10):
It's a brave thing to admit I don't know if I loved
him, I don't know if he loved mefully.
That's a really vulnerableplace to put yourself in.
So, yeah, really appreciativeof her with that episode.
Then we had loss 52, which wasa loss of life for a cardiac
surgeon, with mark field, andthis was a very special episode
because you were there, yeah,and it was one of the most

(21:33):
popular we've done.

Chris (21:34):
I'm taking that personally.
It was like I can't believe it,like I missed one lost episode
and it's one of the most popular.

Claire (21:42):
This is a real test to you, saying I want the podcast
to thrive for you, I want you tohave something that that
flourishes, and the minute he'snot there and it goes well, it's
like it's a different scene,but no, but no.
I'd been trying to get thisepisode in the diary for a
little while.
I'd been put in contact withMark.
He was understandably a bitnervous about recording it

(22:03):
because not a lot of surgeonsspeak out about losing patients
and having to deal with loss andtelling people when a patient's
died and things like this.
So to be honest about that,it's a tricky thing for them to
do in that kind of field.
So it was an awkward one.
It was a precious one because Ireally wanted this conversation
, because I knew it would help alot of other people.
Well, I hoped it would help alot of other surgeons really to

(22:25):
understand that they're notalone in feeling these feelings.
And it got moved a couple oftimes because his work obviously
he has to go and do things at amoment's notice sometimes and
then I had a date in the diaryand you couldn't make it and we
had to make the call.
Do we go ahead and get thisinterview or do I wait and try
and risk rescheduling it.
So in the end we went ahead andI did it on my own.

(22:46):
So, yeah, it's a shame that youweren't there for that one, but
it has been a popular one and Ithink that's because it's been
shared quite a lot within thearea of cardiac surgery and
other people who are in thatkind of environment, and he's
told me he's had some reallygood feedback from it.
People really enjoyed listeningto it.
So I'm so pleased that that onehas got out there because I do

(23:06):
think it's a very importantconversation for people to hear
and if you know somebody whoworks in medicine in that area,
then I'd recommend it, becausehe's very vulnerable about the
fact.
This isn't easy.
It takes a toll and we're notreally trained or taught how to
deal with loss and grief andgiving people bad news yeah, and
they are human.

Chris (23:25):
After all, they are human .
You know.
It does impact all humans whenyou're working around death more
often than most people, moreoften than most people,
certainly More often than mostpeople.
There's not many people thatwork around death is there?
I don't for sure, Nor do you.
So, yeah, that was episode 52,or lost, number 52.
Following him again, realdiverse mix of subjects was our

(23:51):
good friend Laura.

Claire (23:52):
Burns talking about Alopecia.

Chris (23:52):
I thought you were going to finish my sentence.
There we go.
That was waiting for you.
20 years of marriage.
We're so in sync, we're so insync.

Claire (23:59):
Yeah, yes, she was talking about alopecia.
So Laura is the wife of thefriend, of a friend who has
become a friend and yeah, she'svery honest and open about what
it's been like to live withalopecia when it first arrived
in her life, which was when shewas I think it was like teens to
early twenties and what that'sbeen like.
And, yeah, it's another kind ofloss.

(24:21):
And also, interestingly, shehad this before she met her
husband, john.
So we spoke to her about whatwas it like dating and trying to
find people and trying to meetpeople when you're going through
ill health, because she's alsohad some brain tumours to work
on and you know how's that been.
What's it been like, kind oftrying to meet somebody and then
meeting John.
And John was here when werecorded the episode with her in

(24:42):
person, which again doesn'thappen very often for us doing
it face to face.
And because he was here, weactually did a bonus episode off
the back of this one, withLaura and John together talking
about what that was like,because John has had a lot of
his own health issues.
So we were talking about whatthat was like to work through.
But also what was it likedating somebody and getting to
know somebody without a piece,and they had a very funny story

(25:02):
of the first time he saw herwithout her wig on as well, so
that was a lovely episode forsure.

Chris (25:07):
I think there's something in me that wanted to be a
little bit shallow and just say,look, what was it like dating
for the first time and thenhaving to share the news that
you don't have any hair, andjust what you know for a guy.
I wanted to ask John, what wasthat like?
And because there are some guysthat would run a mile that
would be like, okay, thanks,thanks, but no thanks.
What I'm looking at now is notyour real hair, it's a wig.

(25:29):
So, uh, there was a.
There was an element of I mean,they're brilliant at
conversation anyway there's anelement of, I guess, just
shallowness of what is it like,um, dating someone going out
with someone leading to marriageof someone that's lost their
hair?

Claire (25:42):
they're a lovely couple and john is a great example of
the fact that there are men outthere who just don't care about
that kind of thing.
He loves laura so much.
Whether she had hair or not wasnot even slightly on his radar
or an issue for him.
I think that's encouragingbecause as a female, especially
when you lose something likehair, you can feel less feminine
.
You can feel like no one'sgonna want me because I look

(26:03):
different.
It feels like a big thing.
So to be reminded that thereare men out there that really
don't mind about that kind ofthing and will love you for who
you are and to be such agorgeous couple together
smashing couples.

Chris (26:14):
So here we are with this podcast that we love, shining a
light on all kinds of loss, notjust bereavements, loss of loved
ones.
So we've had loss of a dad,loss of life for a cardiac
surgeon, loss of hair, and thenon to loss through addiction.

Claire (26:28):
Lisa Newman yeah, loss number 54.
It was a topic we had on ourlist from very early on and
we've actually been in contactwith Lisa about it almost since
the podcast started.
But we'd booked in to interviewher about it and then she got
very sick when she was abroadworking and I think she talks
about that during the episodeactually and that was quite

(26:48):
scary for her.
It was a long recovery, so weput it off for a while and then
when she was better andrecovered, we got the
conversation going again and wewere like we really want to
record this.
So that was a really goodepisode.
I'm so pleased we got to tacklethat because there was so much
loss in addiction and I thinkthat's the case whether you're
the person that's going throughthe addiction or whether you're

(27:09):
the family.

Chris (27:10):
So lind us what kind of addiction.

Claire (27:11):
So Lisa was alcohol and drugs which at various points
had landed her in prison.
She'd been homeless.
There was a real story there ofthe effects of what these
things can take away from you.
So a lot of loss in a lot ofdifferent forms.

Chris (27:25):
Yeah, and the impact as well, talking about how it
impacted her wider family.

Claire (27:29):
Yeah.

Chris (27:29):
The impact it had on her parents and how she'd come back
to having a meaningfulrelationship with her parents
now yeah and it was lovely torecord with her in person if she
lives nearby yes so, like withlaura burns actually in the, we
had a run of two episodes,didn't we, that were recorded
with people in person, which wasfantastic and we knew lisa
outside of the podcast.

Claire (27:46):
She wasn't just a guest, she was another friend as well.
So that was lovely because wecould be very honest with her.
We could ask a lot of questionsthat maybe we would.
I don't know, maybe we mightnot have gone as deep if we
hadn't have known the personwell, because it is a sensitive
issue.
You do have to be careful ofthings like language, I think,
when you're talking aboutaddiction with people.
But she's so open.
She's such a testament to lifeon the other side of addiction

(28:09):
and yet still having to becareful and battle through it.
But she's been sober forseveral years now.
So it's yeah, it's a lovely,lovely conversation that I was
really pleased we had and justgave me a lot of hope and again
I just I just pray it gets outto the right people to hear it,
because it it's a real story ofof triumph really.
But she really shows you howmuch effort it takes to get

(28:31):
there and there were some realheartbreaking moments in it
where I just my heart brokeduring it.
I think interviewing her,knowing that she had been in
that place at that point, and Ithink it just built my
compassion because at one pointshe said that she went into the
public toilets in Gloucester Ithink it was and there was a
woman there that was washing atthe sink the homeless woman who
was sort of high on something.
And she said she realized thatyou know, that was her a few

(28:53):
years back in the same toilets.
That's where she would go towash.
And it really struck me that ifI went into a public toilets
and there was a woman high onsomething washing in the sink,
there would be a lot of fear inme for this person and like, oh
gosh, I don't know.
You know, I'd probably want toget out as quick as I could.
And then I think about it beingLisa.
My heart just broke because nowI know her and how lovely she
is and what potential there is.

(29:14):
You know she's helping otherpeople.
She now goes into people'shouses to help them get through
addiction in their own home.
I mean, what a job.
It would be almost bottom ofthe list of things I feel like I
could do for people.
So I'm just so in awe thatshe's doing that.
But it made me realise thepeople that are behind a lot of
the things we see that we getscared about when someone's high
, when someone's drunk, whensomeone's homeless.

(29:35):
To see what they can be on theother side is really important,
so that's what that episodetaught me.

Chris (29:41):
And then for her to finish that conversation with
such a high level of gratitudeas we were speaking about the
first thing which we'll hear.

Claire (29:48):
We'll hear a summary of her, herman, but gratitude is
just massive in her life andit's such a beautiful way to
sort of for her to a place forher to have come after what
she's been through, just to haveso much gratitude yeah, and
there was some lovely healingbits there as well, with her dad
had died since, but she wasable to sort of reconcile with
him and have a relationship withhim and every time I think of

(30:09):
her in that I hear her talkingabout the fact that when she
spent her 40th birthday inprison and her dad didn't send a
birthday card and I think herparents had always been there
and she said it just broke herheart and I always hear that
when I think of that episode,just think of all those people
that are stuck in prison, thathave birthdays and things and no
one gets in touch.

Chris (30:28):
That's the knock-on effect of these things.
Family important to sendbirthday cards.

Claire (30:32):
That's touch, that's, that's the knock-on effect of
these things.

Chris (30:33):
Family important to send birthday cards.
That's the theme of the episodeon to loss 55 of 101 lost
through a bad or a complex deathwith k backhouse yeah.

Claire (30:42):
So I think the terminology people talk about a
good death and a bad death but Ithink the sort of actual
terminology of bad death is, Imean, it's not very nice, it
doesn't sound very nice.
I think some people try and getaway from that and it's more of
a complex death.
But I wanted to put bad deathin the title of the episode
because that is how a lot ofpeople see and when they talk
about these things it's a gooddeath or a bad death, in sort of

(31:04):
inverted commas, as it were.
But Kay had witnessed herbrother dying of cancer and it
was a complex death.
It was a horrible, horrible endto a life, and so that was
really interesting to explorebecause it's like well, what
effects does that have on people?
There's a lot to be discussedaround whether these things
should actually be able tohappen.
There was a lot of red tapethat prevented her brother from

(31:26):
having the medication that maybehe could have had to ease it at
the end.
So there's some of that.
We didn't get into the weedswith that because obviously
there's a lot of politicalsituations there in different
countries about assisted dyingand things.
But a lot of people will havewitnessed somebody die in a not
very nice way and that often,like she said, can leave you
with PTSD.
It can leave you with trauma.
It's a very traumatic thing tosee happen.

(31:46):
So it was interesting toexplore the grief around that
and the impact on your grief andon you afterwards when you've
witnessed something like that.

Chris (31:53):
And with it being her baby brother, very close to him,
and not only having to come toterms with this sort of terminal
diagnosis but then watchingsomething horrible happen.
How did that leave her afterhe'd died?
You know, with that whole thingSometimes you'll hear that
whole sort of well, they're atpeace now, but still you're left

(32:19):
with.
You know for Kay being leftwith the trauma of having
witnessed something reallyunforgettable and having to work
through that.
And she has done incrediblywell, to a point that she's now
helping out in a local hospice,working with other people and
families and supporting staffmembers and the team at this
wonderful hospice up inLancaster.
Through her experience, youknow incredible and written a
book as well.

Claire (32:37):
Yeah, she wrote her experiences about what she went
through into a book, whichreally helped her process that.
So that's another interestingway to process grief and, yeah,
amazingly, to go throughsomething like that in a hospice
.
He did die in a hospice andthen to go and work in one a
different one, but to go andvolunteer in one afterwards and
she absolutely loved it.
She talked about the fact thatwhen she walked in for the first

(32:59):
time she just sort of almostfelt like she'd come home and
that's amazing.
Having had such an awfulexperience in one, to then want
to go and give back in that way,I think is lovely.
And we did another episode offthe back of that with Kay and
Maddy Bass, who was one of themanagers at the hospice, and we
spoke to both of them about lifein a hospice and what is it
like, because they both spoke sowarmly about how much they love

(33:21):
working there and I've heard somany people say the atmosphere
in a hospice is something quitespecial.
I thought let's explore thisbecause a lot of people are
quite scared of the idea.
They're quite frightened ofthem.
But after that episode I wassold, to be honest.
I thought this sounds lovely.
So yeah, and then we went andvisited that hospice and met
them both in person, and thatwas lovely.

Chris (33:41):
They bought us lunch.

Claire (33:42):
They did, we had fish and chips at the hospice.
It was a lovely atmosphere.
It was a beautiful place.
I mean, I was like you know, ifwe get into this terminal
situation, I think I need tomove up to Lancaster because
there was like rooms with sortof areas out onto the garden
where you could watch the birds,and all these separate rooms.
It was beautiful.

Chris (33:58):
You could wheel the beds outside of the room.
Sort of large French doorsalmost take the bed out a bit,
just to, yeah, just to see thebirds on the feeders and hear
the birdsong.
It was, yeah, wonderful.

Claire (34:09):
Lovely cafe.
The bird song.
It was, yeah, wonderful, lovelycafe, nice staff.
Yeah, it was a really lovelyexperience.
So that was another time whenwe got to actually go and
experience something off theback of an episode, like when we
did the funeral directors andwe went to experience what that
was like working in a funeraldirectors.
It's just been great to havethese experiences off the back
of it and I think you know I wasalways keen to put ourselves in
the situations that some of ourguests have been in.

(34:30):
I hadn't been in a funeralreally, so it was good to go and
see behind the scenes there.
It was good to see our firstdead body, because I hadn't
really ever done that.
I felt like that was somethingwe should do.
And a hospice was another one.
You know it's a bit nervewracking to think, you know,
walking into these places, butactually it was a lovely thing
to do and I feel so much theseplaces and more open about them
and more encouraging about themthan I did before.

Chris (34:51):
I'm still stuck on your words.
It was good to see our firstdead body.

Claire (35:00):
It wasn't good.
I think it's good, as a podcasthost talking about grief, when
we're talking to people who havequite often had to experience
seeing bodies, to kind of putourselves in those shoes a
little bit.
Yeah, it's good, in invertedcommas, to put ourselves in
these situations.
Yes, I wouldn't say it's goodto see a dead body.

Chris (35:11):
No, Chris to put ourselves in these situations.
Yes, I wouldn't say it's goodto see a dead body.
No, Chris and Claire Sands openfor unusual work experience.
Contact us if you can recommendsomewhere we should go and work
.

Claire (35:18):
Oh dear.

Chris (35:19):
On to number 56.
We're now halfway through this10.
And this was a revisit tofriend of the show.
Yes, jared.

Claire (35:29):
Altick Jared.
We love Jared.
Jared was a very early guest ona let's Chat episode where I
spoke to him about life as apolice chaplain and I said to
you a little while ago I waslike, oh, since we've started
looking at loss through careerscardiac surgeon, pediatric nurse
, funeral directors, murderdetective, all these different
things we've put into the losslist what is it like working

(35:50):
around loss in these careers?
Since we've done that, I saidto you I really wish I'd put
Jared in the loss list because Iwas doing them separately as
let's chats at the time and yousaid to me, why don't we get him
back on?
So I was like, yeah, we should.
So I contacted him and said,hey, jared, you want to come
back.
And he did, which is lovely.
Jared runs a podcast called heyChaplin for cops, as they call
them out there, and theirfamilies and he interviews them

(36:11):
about you know what it's likegoing through that and how to
support each other and all thesesorts of things.
And he's also put one of ourepisodes out on his podcast when
I did an episode with him.
So he's been an avid listenerof the show.
He's a great supporter and itwas really lovely to have him
back again and yeah, so we'vegot him in the loss list.
Finally, loss 56 what is itlike as a police chaplain
dealing with loss and grief?

(36:31):
He's a volunteer, so he getscalled in to do death
notification sometimes to go andtell a family that somebody's
died, he'll go in and supportthe police officers.
He'll sit with their bodieswhile things are being sorted
out and all that kind of stuff.
So, yeah, he sees a lot of loss, a lot of death, and it was a
really interesting, very honestinterview about what that's like
, the toll it can take on hisfamily, how it's taken him quite

(36:54):
a long while to process thatand not getting too blasé about
these things and actually tryingto remember that you know these
are still still big, big thingsthat people are going through.

Chris (37:03):
So, yeah, really interesting episode and I think
one of the things that struck meis how much or how often and
this is probably the case, youpolice officers, whatever but
for him, as a police chaplain,how often what he does is it
starts with a shock, with asurprise, because his phone
might go at three in the morningand he's got to go and visit

(37:26):
some place or someone.
You know these things aren'tplanned, are they?
You don't get noticed that, ah,could we put a date in the
diary for you to come and justbe at this crime scene, please?
Could we arrange a date for youto come and visit this drug
dealer's house to tell them thata member of the family has been
shot dead?
It always starts with a dead,it always starts with a shock,

(37:46):
it always starts with beingstartled.
And what does that do for yourbody?
What does that do for yourcentral nervous system, for the
chemicals, the adrenaline, allthat sort of stuff?
Just operating like that, itdoes take its toll physically as
well as, as you said, on thefamily, on a marriage being on
call, wider family, children.
A really interestingconversation with.

Claire (38:06):
Yeah, and he mentioned compassion fatigue as well,
which is something he's done, anepisode on which I hadn't
really heard or thought aboutbefore, but which makes a lot of
sense for people in these kindsof careers.
You know, you can get realfatigue about just being
compassionate to others, sointeresting topic to to open up
there and very, very encouragingas well of the younger
generations.

Chris (38:24):
He was so positive about seeing young police officers
laying down their life, reallyputting on the badge, getting up
, going out in all weatherconditions to try and make their
communities a safer place,which is lovely to hear because
we hear so much about youngstersnow that certainly in this
country they're just in playingon their games consoles, not

(38:45):
doing very much, not out andabout enjoying the sort of the
fresh air like we did back inthe 1930s.
So, yeah, he was so inspired byseeing the younger police
officers coming through and,yeah, giving up their their all
really to make the place saferand then we had lost 57, where
we spoke to rachel hart aboutthe loss of her husband to

(39:07):
suicide while she was pregnant.
So yeah, a lot of emotions there, a lot of things to work
through there's a really niceI'd not say an end, but where
she is now is in a really goodplace because of this experience
, because it's I sort of wantyou know that, because it's a
real challenging story, isn't itthat she has faced being

(39:29):
pregnant and then her husbandtaking his own life, leaving her
on her own to go through thisincredibly happy chapter, as it
is for many people, having to dothat on her own, knowing that
this very bizarre episodehappened in her life, that she
can't answer, still can't answer.

(39:50):
She's in a great place now.
But, wow, I think one of thethings that really struck me
about or stayed with me aboutwhat she said was how she was
that mum walking her baby in apram, helping baby get to sleep
or whatever, as you see mumsdoing.
She was that young mum doingjust sort of really keen to have
some sort of interaction, justto someone, to say hi or to

(40:11):
smile as they walk past.
And I think I'd said at thetime you know, I see those sort
of mums all the time and I'dnever dream that one of those
had that level of trauma behindthe scenes, that level of
tragedy that they were stillprocessing rather than just
assuming happy young mum,everything's groovy,
everything's great at home.
But yeah, that stuck with me.

Claire (40:33):
Yeah, and she was doing it all through COVID.
She gave birth in COVID, so itwas even more lonely, I think,
in a way.
But yeah, just looking forthose meaningful interactions
with people as she walked around.
And it's another area, isn't it, where a baby's born and we
assume everything's happy, likewhen someone dies, we assume
everything was good.
There's these assumptions thatwe go to as a starting point to

(40:53):
assume that everything iswonderful, and that's not always
the case.
A lot of couples split up aftera baby's born.
Sometimes you know there's adeath of one partner or another
and to be dealing with a deathlike that but then also to be
dealing with it as a suicide.
She was also very honest aboutthe point that later on anger
came through.
There was an anger in heremotions to deal with and I

(41:16):
thought, yeah, that's just veryhonest, talking about these
feelings and how hard it was andwhen she was first told and not
being able to process it andforgetting she was pregnant for
a while when she was first toldand then having to realize that,
oh, my word, I'm gonna have togo through this.
And we spoke to her just beforeshe was about to remarry and
she has got married since andher little boy is doing very

(41:36):
well and, like you said, it'sworth pointing out that she
she's in a good place overall,but obviously that grief will
always be there and especiallylinked to her son.
But yeah, it was a great episodeto explore this area and, again
, suicide was one that we'dwanted to do for quite a long
time.
It was a case of finding theright person to talk about it in
the right way.
But it was also a really goodopportunity, on the back of that

(41:58):
interview, to do an extra bitwhere we spoke about language,
and suicide especially has hadsome really sort of negative
language around it for quite along time and it is hard to get
out of your vocabulary.
I find myself doing it everynow and then because for years
we've said someone has committedsuicide.
That was the vocabulary thatyou used, so those two words sit

(42:20):
together very easily whenyou're talking about it.
But that kind of harks back to atime when it was a crime, so a
crime was committed and youcommitted suicide.
It's not a crime now, so weneed to change our language
around that.
And died by suicide or tooktheir own life.
Things like that are easier andsofter on the families.
You don't have to to listen tothat.
So we we took time at the endof that episode just to explain

(42:41):
that a little bit and why wekind of need to change our
language around that she has, inthe last six months, launched a
really lovely set of cards,hasn't she?

Chris (42:51):
I don't say greetings, are they greetings cards?
Is that?

Claire (42:53):
yeah, sympathy cards, all kinds of things.
She's got candles and otherthings as well.
Yeah, she's.
She's launched.
So her big thing was discoballs.
That was her social media loveloss and disco balls that's the
name of the company.
Um and disco balls were allabout shattered glass and kind
of it coming together to makesomething beautiful, and they're
actually a symbol of hope in alot of quotes that I found when
I was looking for a quote forthat episode.

(43:14):
So she's always had that as hersocial media.
She's launched Love Loss DiscoBalls as a company with her
husband and they've come outwith some brilliant greetings.
Yeah, you're right, notgreetings card like sympathy
cards, but not the sort of onesthat you go into the shop and
find like doves and things withlong poems about bereavement,
but more like you know you'vegot this.

Chris (43:34):
Bright colours, vibrant colours.

Claire (43:36):
Very bright colours, yeah, lovely, luminous colours,
and the messages on them aremore like the kind of thing you
really do want to send somebody,Saying things like like you are
loved, always by your side,here for you, mate, here for you
, girl, you mean the world to me, you've got this, you really
matter to me.
Just statements on the front,very big and bold, that are the

(43:59):
kind of things you might want tosend somebody, rather than a
poem that said in deepestsympathy.
These are cards just forprobably a different generation
really, and she was looking atall the cards that she got and
she's worked out the kind ofcards she wanted to receive or
that would have been good, andshe's created those for other
people to buy.
So thoroughly recommendchecking those out.
She's got some other bits onthe website she sells as well
and, yeah, she's doing a greatjob with that.

Chris (44:17):
Loss number 58.
Again, a very, very differentsort of loss to what we've
talked about in the last seven.
Anyway, this was lost throughprecocious puberty.

Claire (44:27):
Yes, this was not on my list because I didn't know it
existed.
Well, I knew it sort ofhappened, but I didn't know
there was a name for it.
Precocious puberty is earlypuberty, which can start from
the age of about seven or eightonwards, and Danny Lou Carr got
in touch with us and said she'dbe interested in sharing her
experience of going through thisand the knock-on effect it has

(44:47):
had on her life and how only now, as an adult, she feels she can
actually talk about the impactit had because it was so big.
So that was very interesting.

Chris (44:55):
Yeah, yeah, certainly.
I don't want to try and recap onthe episode in case I get
something wrong, because you, asa woman, will know a lot more
of the sorts of things thathappen in puberty boys have
puberty too, yes, but it's verydifferent for boys but yeah, for
her listening to her realexperiences, her memories of how

(45:18):
things were at school, when shewas a young girl, outside of
school, how she was seen, theimpact of how she was seen by
other parents, by other maleparents, comments that were made
, just the impact that that hashad on her and the ripple
effects of some of that stuffthat have been quite seriously
detrimental to her health, herwell-being Incredible.

(45:40):
So wow, I would never havethought of the ways that you
could lose through early puberty.
So a fascinating episode tolisten back to.

Claire (45:49):
Yeah, and I hope it's one that people will pass on to
anyone they know going throughit or parents going through it
to try and understand it.
Because there is that tendencywith a child to sort of be like,
well, this is it, you just needto get on with it, and that's
not helpful when a child isfeeling that out of place she
didn't know anyone else goingthrough it.
It sounds like the kind ofthing would be perfect for
groups of parents or somebody toput a group together where the

(46:11):
kids can meet together that weregoing through it, just to see
I'm not the only one feelinglike this, so very lonely.
Yeah, it makes you feel veryisolated from your friends and
takes a long while to sort ofcome to terms with it.
And she spoke about, you know,having a loss of agency over her
body and that had created awhole load of other problems

(46:31):
since then of trying to come toterms with her body and how she
felt about it.
And, yeah, really interesting,one of those losses I'm just so
pleased has come out of thewoodwork and helped us
understand it more so we can putit out there for others to
learn about.

Chris (46:44):
Okay, back into the police system again, following
Jawed Altik and this time KenAnderson, in this country
British police officer or formerofficer, because he was talking
about loss of a police careerand his self-worth.

Claire (46:57):
Yeah, ken Anderson was lost number 59.
And yeah, really interesting,ken had been in the police,
which was something that heabsolutely, absolutely loved.
He followed that right throughto being a firearms officer,
which is quite different.
Over here not all our policecarry guns, like in some
countries.
So to specialize and train as afirearms officer means that
you're getting to the pointwhere you're carrying a gun.

(47:17):
He absolutely loved it allunfortunately had an accident in
a car during a police chase andit damaged his back and then he
was taken out of frontline duty, put into sort of office work
and slowly from there just feltvery let down by the police
system and this family he'd beena part of suddenly just sort of
felt right on the outside of itand that massively affected his

(47:38):
mental health to the pointwhere he was sort of getting
where he took himself to theedge of a cliff to end his life
and obviously came back fromthat because of a lovely, an old
woman just sort of appearingreally and saying are you okay?
It was a great testament tothree little words that we can
ask people literally saved hislife and he's been very honest
about talking to us about thatjourney, saying where he is now.

(48:00):
He started a business, phoenixRising, and I don't think he
takes out of the woods.
He still has to battle with alot of things, it's still
difficult, but he is determinedto rise.
He's got new coping mechanismsbut it was a very interesting
journey and talk about loss ofthe police career but also of
his self-worth just completelylost all kind of sense of
self-worth, which is really hardto listen to, but amazing where

(48:24):
he is now.
And because he was in the police, I connected him with Jared
Altick and since Ken Andersonhas been on the hey Chaplin
podcast.
So if you want to hear morefrom Ken and a different side,
different kind of take on it, adifferent interview, you can
listen to him and Jared chattingtogether on Jared's podcast.
So I was so excited that theyconnected and they'd put those
two together because it was agood opportunity for Jared to

(48:46):
speak to a police officer overhere that carried a gun, which
is obviously the norm for themover there.
So yeah, that was a niceconnection as well.

Chris (48:51):
Yeah, I could identify a lot with Ken's, I guess, having
his identity in his work andjust being known for and being
proud and having that prestigereally amongst family friends.
You know what an interestingjob he had and he must have been
on the end sort of theanswering end of so many
questions from interestedfriends and family about, wow,

(49:13):
what was that like thoseexperiences, and then to have
that taken away from you in acompletely unplanned and
unwanted way clearly took him tothe depths and he's he's
bouncing back.
So really good to hear abouthow hope has played a part in
his journey.
As with all of our people, youknow, we're really keen to
explore, you know, can hopeexist in every type of loss?
We use this podcast for that,so we ask our guests about, you

(49:35):
know, when did hope re-emerge?
Was hope there all the time?
And it was interesting hearingKen's answer to that.

Claire (49:41):
And he also mentioned Andy's man Club, which I hadn't
heard about before and is basedin the sort of north of England,
but he couldn't speak highlyenough of how that had helped
him.
Just groups of men comingtogether that are going through
a hard time being able to talkabout it and open up, and they
support people going throughthat.
So that was lovely to hearabout an organisation we didn't
know about that's doing suchamazing work there.

Chris (50:01):
So that's good and then lost episode 60, beck's aisles
and yeah, this reminds me,actually, what something we said
about rachel hart and how shegave birth to her son at a time
where you know, wow, greatcelebration, welcome to the
world.
Um, however, there's stillthese feelings of this wasn't

(50:23):
how it was supposed to be andthat sort of speaks into where
we met Bex Iles and what shespoke about loss in good
transitions yes, yeah, a reallyinteresting one.

Claire (50:34):
And when she was, when I first did a zoom chat with her
to talk about it, to see what wecould explore on the podcast, I
just felt that what she wassaying did connect with a lot of
previous guests.
We've had a few guests thathave talked about that feeling
of loss at the same time as joyand holding those things
together.
So it made a lot of sense to meand I know it's not something
that everybody will understandor experience so I thought this

(50:56):
is a really good thing toexplore.
Bex had been through a divorce,she'd been through infertility.
It had been quite a trickyjourney and then she'd remarried
and when we spoke to her shewas pregnant.
She was expecting a child.
We now know it's a girl.
She's had the girl since, whichis lovely.
And yeah, she was just veryhonest about the fact that I'm
going through these seemingly inverticals, good transitions of

(51:18):
getting married again and havinga baby that I never thought I'd
have.
But it's been surprising to mehow much loss has been attached
to that and how much I've had towork through.
And, as she's a counsellor,she's very eloquent about
talking about what this feltlike, how she's worked through
it.
What's been difficult it wasyeah, I think it's a really good
episode because I think we allknow, even if we haven't

(51:39):
recognised it, we've experiencedprobably that loss and good
things at the same time, butusually it's to other people.
So maybe your friend getsmarried and you were both single
and you're really good friendsand you know that from now on
life has changed.
So you're really happy for them, but at the same time you're a
bit sad.
It's the same for childlesspeople.
When someone has a baby in aclose-knit group, you're like,
oh, life has changed.

(51:59):
I know that we're not going tobe as close anymore, but you're
happy for them.
Usually you get that whenthings happen, you get a bit of
happy and a bit of sad, but tohave both of those inside you at
the same time is a differentexperience.
To think, oh my word, I'mpregnant, I'm really happy about
that, but then also feel allthis loss and confusion coming
up from other things.
I think, yeah, it was reallygood to explore, so I was really

(52:19):
glad we did that.
I hope it helps peopleunderstand that just because
people are going through somereally good things, it doesn't
mean that there isn't stillsadness and grief to deal with.

Chris (52:31):
And that, on a wider subject, is something we've
touched on in the podcast before, about things like New Year,
other times you say happy, theamount of times that there's the
pressure to be happy, whetherit's happy birthday, happy New
Year.
The greetings that we make, youknow, do we leave space around
them?
Yes, make the greeting, but dowe leave space around them?

(52:51):
Yes, make the greeting, but dowe leave space around them to
acknowledge that there can besome challenge, some?
trial some difficulty in thathappiness as well.
That, yes you happy new year,whatever.
But was it, yeah, let's ask youthat?
So interesting to be sensitive,like bexels was talking about,
to the celebrations that we wantto honor and pay tribute to,
whatever it may be in someoneelse's life, but to recognise
that it's, you know, is it?
Is it what you were hoping itwould be?

Claire (53:09):
Yeah, and when we put on the outro of that episode as we
were recording it because werecord the intros and the outros
at a separate time from theactual interview by the time we
recorded the outro, bex had herbaby.
So I messaged her and saidwould it be okay if I put on
there that you've had your baby?
So people know that that kindof went well and she was very
happy for that.
And then she was very honestwith me and told me that it'd
been a really hard birth andshe'd been quite unwell since

(53:31):
and readmitted to hospital.
So she hadn't got those firstdays with her baby that she
wanted to.
Family were having to lookafter the baby.
She was in hospital, she wasn'twell and she was finding that
really difficult.
So I said to her can I do youmind me sharing some of that as
well, because I think that'simportant for people to know
that it's again, it's not allbeen good for you and she was
very happy for me to put that onthere.
So we put that on the outro.

(53:52):
But yeah, just so grateful forher and her honesty in that area
, because she was so desperate.
She kept saying I want peopleto know that I'm thankful, I'm
very thankful for all this goodstuff.
I was like like, yeah, I know,don't worry, we know that, but
that doesn't mean there isn'tloss to acknowledge.
So even with having her baby,it didn't go the way she wanted
and she was having to processand work through that.
Oh gosh, I thought these wouldbe the moments and I can't enjoy

(54:13):
them because I'm ill.
So even that she's having toprocess and work through.
So yeah, you know, life justdoesn't go as we want it to go
and you need to acknowledge thatand process it, or else you can
just get quite bitter or angryor the grief comes out somewhere
else.

Chris (54:26):
And all of that has stayed with me and will remain
with me.
I know, going forwards in howsensitive I am with other people
going through these sorts oftransitions.
I can't even say that wordTransitions, transitions.
It's nice to chat, it is.
Thank you for chatting throughthese.
In fact, we've got one of thehighlights to come, which is
hearing all their.

Claire (54:45):
Hermans, again Hermans, yes.

Chris (54:46):
Before we finish this episode.

Claire (54:48):
Yeah, because if you're new to the podcast you might not
know that we ask all our 101guests the same last question.

Chris (54:55):
What's your Herman?

Claire (54:57):
Which you can hear a short episode explaining on the
signupycom slash Herman, andit's like three, four minutes.
You can read it, you can listento it.
It will give you a much betterunderstanding of it than I can
now.
But yeah, basically it explainswhy Hermans are important and
why we ask all our guests that,and then we gather them all
together and every now and thenwe like to play them and
actually I don't know if it'ssince we last talked on one of

(55:18):
these episodes or not, butHermans have become an actual
live thing.
It's actually been a year sincethey were launched, which is
quite frightening.
But yeah, you can buy a Hermanto give to people now.
So if you know someone who'sgoing through something sad or
they're feeling a bit griefy orthey've gone through a big loss,
then yeah, we've got theperfect gift to send them.
He comes with a little card toexplain why you're sending him.

(55:39):
Sometimes words are just reallytricky.
Flowers don't last long,chocolates aren't always good.
You can send a Herman and it'sa crocheted little grief
companion that they can hold andthey can just know that
somebody's with them in theirloss.

Chris (55:50):
The whole purpose of this is that we loved the idea of
like a sharing cake, a sharedstarter for bread, for example.
When you look after something,you feed it, you nurture it, it
grows, and then you multiply itand share it with others.
That was the basis for what wecreated as the Herm and that we
ask our guests you know whatspecific to them in their

(56:12):
experience do they think aboutthemselves, their character,
that they have nurtured, caredfor, and now they can share it
with somebody else?
So we ask them that questionand then in this episode, as you
said, we pull these bitstogether, offer a bit of a
highlight, a bit of a cheatsheet, if you will, something
that we affectionately call thehermontage so here for you are

(56:32):
the last 10 hermans so I wouldsay my gratitude.

Laura Burnes (56:37):
Gratitude is more than just being thankful when
things go well.
It's an attitude ofappreciation under any
circumstance.
So I think there's alwaysthings that we can have
gratitude for.
Sometimes we might feel like wehave to dig deep for those
things, but I think when wechoose gratitude as a mindset,
this then affects our attitude,helps us with perspective and
helps us to ride the ups anddowns of life.

Thea Rickard (56:58):
I think the feeling of knowing that you
can't do anything about asituation and to revel in how
tangly and messy that can feelis my Herman, because a lot of
the time that can make peoplefeel quite powerless and
actually I think that thatfeeling of not knowing what to

(57:19):
do and not knowing how you feelcan actually be incredibly
powerful and it can also changethe way that you see the world.
It can afford you so much morewisdom, it can give you so much
more sympathy and it can allowyou to understand that
absolutely everyone is puttingforward a narrative and it
allows you to kind of look belowthat and look beneath that and

(57:41):
see people for the way that theytruly are.
I think that's my Herman,because it's given me a lot of
peace.

Mark Field (57:49):
So I thought a lot about this and I think it is
around how we manage death.
But one thing that I've learnedis that if you manage that
death badly, you can affect thequality of the life of the
entire family for a generation.
If I was to give advice tosomeone coming behind me, it was

(58:13):
, yes, the death is tragic andthere'll be all sorts of things
and issues to cope with aroundthat, but your focus has to be
on the family.
You know, certainly if it'sduring an operation and you have
an opportunity to get out whenyou know things are going wrong
and go and speak to therelatives, give them full
warning, but also give them somehope.
I think hope is reallyimportant.

Lisa Newman (58:33):
I suddenly realized what my real Herman is, and
it's got to be gratitude.
It's got to be gratitude.
Gratitude has probably been mylittle saving grace through some
of my darkest times and hasprobably been at times when

(58:53):
things feel so challenging anddark and chaotic.
The tiniest little slither ofgratitude for having a bed in a
hostel or having people in mylife that care about me have
probably carried me throughthose moments, as I remember

(59:13):
some very wise woman telling megratitude is the breakfast of
champions.

Dannie-Lu Carr (59:20):
My home in is creative practice, because it's
the thing that will bring you ohgod, I sound like a self-help
book, but it is the thing thatwill bring you back to yourself.
It gives you a way to expresswhat's going on and get curious
and to create something fromthings that can feel a bit nasty
or a bit unpleasant.
If you get into a creativepractice, there's always
something that comes from that.
There's like a new thing thatcomes from that and I feel like

(59:41):
that's such an amazing thing toget involved in and it just has
given me so much peace over theyears in my head and in myself
that I really would recommendeveryone has a creative practice
.
You don't even have to be goodat it.
You know a lot of people don'tdo creative practice because
they go I'm not very good at it.
I'm like it doesn't matter beterrible at it, it's not about
that, it's getting amongst it.

Jared Altic (59:58):
I spend a lot of time with 25-year-old police
officers where all of theirpeers are in their mother's
basement playing Xbox, but theyare putting on an armored vest,
a gun on their hip and a taseron the other hip and they're
going out into a dangerous worldand they are clearing houses
and responding to car accidentsand doing all kinds of dangerous

(01:00:20):
things that most people wouldnever dream of doing, and
they're doing it while beingcriticized and while being
yelled at, and this desire toserve has moved me.
That inspires me and I'minspired to serve.
I tell you what?
There's not very many careersmilitary law enforcement,
firefighters, that's pretty muchit.

(01:00:41):
They raise their right hand andswear an oath that they would
give their life for a stranger.
I can't think of a higher kindof service, a higher kind of
love than that.

Rachel Hart (01:00:52):
So my herman would be music.
Music is just such a beautifulway of sharing memories and
creating memories.
You know, if I hear a song thatreminds me of someone or
someone's loved one or my ownloved ones, I'll always share
that.
I've heard it with someoneMaking playlists with people.
Yeah, I was looking at what aHerman means, and it's something
that you can't really buy andsomething that grows and

(01:01:14):
something that outlasts you, andI think music's a really good
example of that.
It's a way of sharing a memoryand just sort of triggers
something completely differentin your brain, and I think, yeah
, by sharing that, it makes iteven better.

Bex Eyles (01:01:25):
I may have cheated a little bit in that it's a
two-parter.
The first thing for me is, Ithink, when you find yourself in
the acute stage of loss, whenit's really painful and you're
in that heavy grief, my hermitat that stage would be
absolutely to give yourselfpermission to be where you're at
you know, allow yourself tofeel what you feel and be where

(01:01:49):
you are.
And if you're in an excitingphase of life, it's okay that
you can have loss at the sametime.
The second part would be whenyou're in that place of
adjusting.
Loss can be such a fantasticopportunity to reflect on what
you value and what you want toembrace in your life.
Moving forwards, the bestthings that have come out of my

(01:02:11):
life have been as a result ofloss.
So actually you can see, thisis an opportunity to grasp hold
of what really matters to you inlife and how do you want those
values to shape your new way ofbeing my Herman is my attempt at
taking my own life that thenevolved into the business that I

(01:02:31):
have started, which is PhoenixRises.

Ken Anderson (01:02:34):
I looked at your website and there were four main
things that you used todescribe what Herman was.
It's's something that'snourished, grown and cultivated,
and through my personalstruggle that's what I've done
I've developed this resilienceand this empathy and a deep
understanding of things.
It's something that you can'tbuy with money.
You can't buy what I've beenthrough with money.

(01:02:55):
Nobody would pay to have gonethrough that but it's invaluable
because it comes from a realplace, something to be shared
with others and given away.
Well, that's exactly what I'mdoing.
I'm sharing my story, I'msharing my experience, I'm
sharing my knowledge, I'msharing my skills and my life,
something alive and breathingPhoenix Rises.

(01:03:16):
I want that to continue, and ifI help one person, they will
then take that away and theywill naturally help somebody
else.
So my Herman is Phoenix Rises.
It is a real passion projectfor me that is making a
difference.

Kay Backhouse (01:03:35):
My Herman.
The thing that kept me goingwas this idea that inside of me,
I was very aware that there wasa tiny little pilot light
inside of me that never went outso similar to what you see on
the old gas burners and they'dhave this pilot light that would
just keep going and going andgoing.

(01:03:56):
I felt like I focused on that alot as I was meditating, when I
was feeling like I just had noanswers, didn't know which way
to turn, no-transcript, and thatis my Herman.

Claire (01:04:32):
There they are, aren't they lovely.

Chris (01:04:34):
Really lovely.

Claire (01:04:35):
As always, thank you for listening to the Silent why
we're so grateful that peoplechoose to be with us on this
journey and that they'reinterested in also learning
about 101 different types ofloss.

Chris (01:04:44):
If you're still wondering who on earth this Chris and
Claire are, what am?
I listening to Stumble acrossthis by accident.
You can find out more about us,about our story with
childlessness.
We've got a website which iswww.
thesilentwhycom.
You can find more informationabout us there, about our
episodes.
We did our own episode calledLoss of Fertility.
That was back in the early days, episode number three.

(01:05:05):
You can see the full list oflosses on the website or just
type in www.
thesilentwhycom/ 101losses and afull list of our let's Chat
episodes that Claire does, aswell as her blog posts.

Claire (01:05:17):
Yep, and this podcast is completely ad-free and we want
to really keep it that way.
I'm not a fan of listening toads on podcasts, and I assume
you're not either, so thispodcast purely runs off the
support of other people.
So if you'd like to support thepodcast monthly or as a one-off
gift, you can buy me a coffeeWell, actually it's a fancy tea,
but you can buy me a coffee atwww.
buymeacoffee.
com/ the silentwh y and you cansupport the podcast that way or

(01:05:40):
by sending somebody a herman.
That also financially supportsthe podcast.
So thank you to anyone thatdoes that, especially to the
regular donors.
They're literally doing that sothat this is here for you.

Chris (01:05:49):
So, yeah, huge thank you for anyone that's supported in
any way and thank you forlistening as well, wherever you
are in the world.
The last time we did a rounduplike this, we'd reached over 116
countries and territories, andnow that's up to 118.

Claire (01:06:03):
I know it doesn't sound like a huge jump, but for our
podcast we've reached two newcountries or territories in the
world.
I find that so encouraging.
It's so much more exciting thanjust doing the individual
downloads.
So yeah, two new countries andterritories.
It's brilliant.

Chris (01:06:16):
It's clearly word of mouth across borders.
We love it when you share theseepisodes.
We love it when you share theseepisodes.
We love it when you interactwith Claire on social media.
It makes a big difference.
If you've not rated or reviewedus on your podcast platform,
please do, because that tellsthe algorithms of the various
podcast platforms that we'rebeing listened to and it will
promote us, maybe, and get us infront of other people's eyes

(01:06:37):
and in their ears as well.
Now we're going to finish thisepisode, as we do every loss
episode, with a quote.
This one's been used oncebefore, but we're going to use
it again because it sums up somuch of what we want to portray
through this podcast.
It was written actually in the70s by Leo Buscaglia.

Claire (01:06:53):
It's not enough to have lived.
We should be determined to livefor something.
May I suggest that it becreating joy for others, sharing
what we have for the bettermentof personkind, bringing hope to
the lost and love to the lonely.