Chris & Claire's Chatty Christmas Catch-Up

#118. Struggling with the festive season? You're not alone. As a childless couple, we've been there too, especially when family is at the heart of so many celebrations.

This is The Silent Why, a podcast on a mission to open up conversations around grief, to see if hope can be found in 101 different types of loss, and we're Chris & Claire Sandys, your childless hosts.

Every year we release an episode where we chat about how we're feeling about Christmas. We started with an episode in 2021, talking about how hard it felt and Chris' loss of Christmas spirit, then we did another in 2022 (Finding Comfort at Christmas - which included other podcast guests' experiences), and in 2023 we had 'Chris & Claire chat Christmas and Childlessness', and now here we are again with all things Christmassy, Chrissy and Clairey.

In this episode we chat about how we're finding the lead up to Christmas this year, how we feel about being childless and how that's changed over the years, what our hopes are going forwards, and lots of other stuff that pops up.

Including, a flu-inspired Chris yelling 'Mistletoe' a few times!

All the other Christmas and New Year episodes and blogs we mention, that you might want to check out if you're struggling this year, can be found on one page:

https://www.thesilentwhy.com/christmas

And don't forget, if you're feeling alone, we're always here and we love to hear from you.

Send us a text

Support the show

-----

thesilentwhy.com | Instagram | Facebook | Twitter | LinkedIn

What's a Herman? / Buy a Herman - thehermancompany.com

Support the show: buymeacoffee.com/thesilentwhy

Sign-up to my mailing list (only used for sharing news occasionally!): thesilentwhy.com/newsletter

How to talk to the grieving: thesilentwhy.com/post/howtotalktothegrieving

Review the show: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Goodpods

Episode transcripts: thesilentwhy.buzzsprout.com

Thank you for listening.

Episode Transcript

Chris (00:02):
Hello.
Hello.

Claire (00:03):
Here we are again and welcome back to The Silent Why
for another Christmas episode ofour chatty Christmas catch-up.

Chris (00:11):
Is that what you've called it?
Just now.
I didn't realise that.
Okay, yes, so normally we aresearching for, digging into 101
different types of loss.
We've reached loss 60, which iscoming out early in the new
year.
But then each Christmas wepause like this for this chatty,
what did you call it?

Claire (00:26):
Chatty Christmas catch-up.

Chris (00:28):
There we go.
Every Christmas Christmas,

Claire (00:38):
Christmas, Christmas

Chris (00:59):
and not being able to rediscover it and how it made me
sad really and then we exploredthat.

Claire (01:04):
Yeah and I think a lot of people identified with that.
Then in 2022 we had an episodecalled Finding Comfort at
Christmas and we reflected onthe previous year and how we
were feeling since that lastepisode.

Chris (01:15):
And in that episode, we heard from a number of previous
guests, which was great, sharinglittle short snippets on why
Christmas might be hard for themas well.

Claire (01:22):
Yeah, which was really nice to hear.
Then last year, 2023, we hadthe episode Chris and Claire
chat Christmas andchildlessness.
Oh, what's with all the Cs?
All the Cs, I know.

Chris (01:31):
It's the alliteration.

Claire (01:33):
Where we once again just reflected on how we were doing
with Christmas.

Chris (01:36):
And we were in a much better place.

Claire (01:38):
We were,

Chris (01:40):
except...
Well, we somehow ballsed up NewYear.

Claire (01:42):
We did.
We had a terrible New Year'sEve.
So we did an episode where wetried to talk about that,
explore what happened.
But it was also the sameepisode where I launched
officially the crochetedHermanns that I sell.
Grief companions that havesince been posted and travelled
all over the world.
And that episode is New Year,New Hermann.

Chris (01:59):
So there you go.
Lots to go back and listen toif you want to be depressed and
follow our journey.
with Christmas and New Year asa childless couple.
All of these episodes plusClaire's blogs are all in one
place this year.

Claire (02:09):
Yeah, we've got one page on the website with all the
Christmas stuff on it, which I'dlove to say was my idea, but it
wasn't.
It was the lovely Laurie Alcornthat gave me that idea.
But yeah, there's loads ofstuff there.
All the blogs I've writtenabout finding this season hard,
what to do if you feel lonely,how to incorporate single,
childless and divorced peopleinto family gatherings and not
make them feel like they're inthe way.
All that kind of stuff.
It's all at thesilentmy.comslash Christmas.

Chris (02:32):
So, It's 2024.
We're approaching Christmas.
Where are we?
How are we?
What's going on?
In fact, can I just start?
I think I need to have somesort of safe word.
So every time I use the safeword, you can just pause the
recording so I can blow my nosebecause I've got some sort of
flu-y thing.

Claire (02:49):
Yeah.
That sums up nicely where weare this Christmas.
So far, the lead up toChristmas has mostly been
illness.

Chris (02:56):
Not very Christmassy.
My safe word then is going tobe mistletoe.

Claire (03:00):
Mistletoe?
Yeah.
Okay.
That sounds romantic, doesn'tit?

Chris (03:02):
Yeah.
Because then if you'relistening, when I say mistletoe
and things pause, you mightthink, we're having a little
kiss.

Claire (03:09):
All right, is that

Chris (03:10):
funny?

Claire (03:11):
Because you'll be emptying your nose.
It's not quite the same.
Yeah, okay.
Yeah, we've had a run ofillness, shall we say, but more
on your side this year thanmine, which was not what we
expected.
Oh, no,

Chris (03:21):
no, no, hang on, hang on, hang on.
Not more on my side.
I

Claire (03:25):
think we could say mine has been a steady thing over the
last few years.

Chris (03:29):
Yeah, yeah, I felt a bit left out.

Claire (03:31):
We felt like it was going to be mine.
But it wasn't.
It was yours.

Chris (03:34):
So to mid-November, I picked up the compilobacter bug,
which is like a food poisoning,a bacterial thing in the gut.
And that took me out of workfor two weeks.
Didn't really recover from thatproperly.
And then thought I had aflare-up of that earlier this
week.
I went and saw the GP, got someantibiotics.
And that was on...
Wednesday, and here we are afew days after that, four or

(03:59):
five days later, and it'sactually more of a flu thing, I
think.
It wasn't Camaro.
Actually, it was just aseparate thing, completely
unconnected.

Claire (04:06):
Yeah, that was very unlucky.

Chris (04:07):
Yeah, by the way, dress rehearsal time, mistletoe.
Yeah, there we go.
That's better.
That worked for me.
So, where were we?
Yeah, health.
It's been a rough few weeks.

Claire (04:19):
Yes.
I don't think it's been thebest run up to Christmas so far,
but we're not there yet.
We've still got time to salvageit.

Chris (04:25):
Well, yeah, because for me, there's been some real
highs.
There's been some tensionbetween feeling really excited
about Christmas, which is quiteunusual for me.
And also just thedisappointments, I guess, have
been like, oh, I wish I was in abetter place.
Because some of the things thatI really enjoy during my week,
I've been unable to do.
So I haven't been able to cycleto work for what feels like two

(04:49):
months.
Having a good old strong hoppyIPA on a Friday evening has just
been out the question.
So the things in my week thatare usual little highlights have
been out so there's beendisappointments there but I've
done a work project recordingchoirs singing Christmas songs
and that's been lovely that'sgot me very Christmassy early

(05:10):
on.

Claire (05:10):
Yeah I think you've got more than that and I have this
year normally I'm finding waysto feel more Christmassy just
before you but you've got a realinjection of it with what your
work wanted you to do.

Chris (05:18):
Yes yeah certainly with the the feels more so than the
foods because you were trying toget me to eat mince pies in
November.
I'm not having any of that.

Claire (05:26):
Yeah, I don't like wasted food.
And you defrosted the mincepies and then just left them on
the side and said, I'm not goingto eat them, which would have
had to mean we binned them.
So I had to eat them.

Chris (05:37):
Who gifts mince pies that go out of date before the end
of November?

Claire (05:40):
It wasn't about the date.
It's a Christmas food.
They were frozen.
They lasted for ages, but youdefrosted them.
So that was the issue.
Not for us.

Chris (05:46):
They went to an event and nobody ate them because it was
too early for mince pies.
And so then they've beendefrosted.

Claire (05:52):
So I don't think that was me trying to coax you into
it.
It

Chris (05:54):
felt like you.
I

Claire (05:55):
wasn't going to buy any and wait for them.
I felt like

Chris (05:57):
you were sad that I wasn't eating mince pies with
you in November.

Claire (06:00):
I was sad that you made me eat them all and wouldn't
touch them because they were satthere and would have gone in
the bin.

Chris (06:04):
I'm a man of principles.
Festive principles.
So, yeah, when you were talkingabout the build-up to this
Christmas, there was moredisappointment in you than there
was in me.

Claire (06:13):
Yeah, because I think when, you know, someone's ill
like you are, what you had waspotentially contagious at the
beginning.
Now you've got some flu bugthat I really don't want.
There's a separation betweenus, so I don't feel like we're
that close at the moment.
I feel like we've just beenexisting in the same house,
moving around between sofas andbeds and it's sort of, yeah,
it's not been that exciting.

Chris (06:33):
It has not.
In mid-November when I had thatfortnight of compiler back to
you picked up something from methen and came down with a cold
and I started to get better andimprove and left you down in the
gutter with with your heavycold symptoms yeah so yeah sorry
about that your immune systemwhat with all your oestrogen
stuff HRT battle strugglesongoing chronic stuff your

(06:55):
immune system is prettyknackered anyway isn't it

Claire (06:58):
well I knew that the treatment I was on that I
started in October was going tobe potentially not great for me
with a lot of symptoms untilChristmas new year hopefully in
the new year I've got a newtreatment that will well could
solve all this but um yeah gothopes fairly high but not too
high just in case so we wereexpecting me to not feel great
between October and Christmas sowe kind of wrote off this time
of year no planning of anythingwe weren't going to go do

(07:20):
anything for Christmas we weregoing to keep it all pretty
low-key and then if I wasfeeling really rubbish that
gives me the space to just feelthat way not having to push it
in front of big gatherings offriends or family so we were
kind of expecting that what weweren't expecting is for you to
feel so ill so it's sort of Iguess it's eased in some ways
because we both had had a bit ofit but um We have kept this
Christmas pretty emptydiary-wise because of that and

(07:43):
commitment-wise, which I don'tmind, you know, as an introvert.
Quiet time, quiet Christmas.
I'm very happy with that.

Chris (07:49):
Apart from New Year, I have forced something into our
diary on New Year's Eve.
Yeah, because it's last year.
Just to do something to get usout of the house.
So we're going to make a fewplans on New Year's Eve.
We'll probably be back for theevening.
I

Claire (07:59):
was going to say, you say New Year's Eve, but we'll
probably be back home by three.

Chris (08:01):
Yeah, yeah.
But as long as we've hadsomething in that day where it's
not just been like a veryquiet, boring Saturday, as long
as we do something where it justfeels a little bit like we're
we're doing something new

Claire (08:12):
well last year in the episode you were saying you felt
like you're some of yourcolleagues had said as well that
going back to work in betweenChristmas and New Year was
actually better because itdidn't merge the whole thing
into one and New Year can feel abit like the downy kind of end
of time off and it's all a bitthe same whereas when you go
back to work you kind of resetand then you have some more time
off and this year you have gota day work in between so

Chris (08:32):
one day

Claire (08:33):
maybe that will reset us

Chris (08:35):
or make all the difference

Claire (08:37):
who knows

Chris (08:37):
so Monday before New I'll be at work and thinking, oh,
it's so good to be back at workfor one day.
That will reset me and thenI'll feel up for a couple of
days off after that.

Claire (08:46):
It feels like we were really struggling with
Christmas, just being childless,working out where we fit in,
trying not to let it make usfeel sad and a bit down in 2021,
which is what we were talkingabout.
And you really missing thatexcitement that you had as a
child over Christmas.
And then in 2022...
we were aware of that more andI think these conversations you
know in these conversations wetalk about stuff that we haven't

(09:07):
spoken about between the two ofus I mean we came into this
conversation this year I'veliterally planned nothing to say
so I have no idea what we'regoing to be talking about but I
think we've been moreintentional about Christmas and
2022 we're like yeah let's focuson the things we like we have
some things that we don't haveokay but let's find things we do
like like the food and thelights and all the other stuff
and then 2023 I think we thoughtbrilliant we've got this nailed

(09:29):
we can do what we want to do ohno 2022 we went away We left
the country for Christmas andwent to Belgium.
So we made it really different.
So that was nice.
You were

Chris (09:37):
unwell.

Claire (09:37):
I was unwell, yeah.
We'll forget about that.
In 2023, we were back home.
We saw both sets of parents andwe were like, ah, you know, I
think we can make thissomething.
We can make it better.
We're getting the hang of thisnow.
But then New Year was reallybad.
Whereas the year before, I'dbeen saying I preferred New Year
to Christmas because I feltlike it was a nicer holiday for
us and being childless.
There wasn't the pressure offamily.

(09:58):
And then this year, I feel likeI'm kind of...
I feel like I have intentionsabout Christmas, so I feel
happier going into it.
I know what we like andeverything, but it's been a bit
wrecked by one or two of us notfeeling well.
And New Year, I now think we'reterrified of getting wrong
because last year it went sobadly wrong after it was
something we really liked.
So I think everything's up forgrabs this year.

(10:20):
I think we'll be doing anepisode in the New Year.
Who knows how Christmas and NewYear will have gone?
I don't know.
I feel less confident that I'vegot it nailed now.

Chris (10:28):
I do like some of the new traditions, I think, that
you've introduced.
You've certainly suggested andhelped introduce that we have in
the build-up to Christmas atthe start of December.
I mean, we've got what'sbecoming an annual theatrical
production of our Christmas treepurchase.
Christmas tree.
Christmas tree.

(10:48):
And using that on social media,so that's something.
We had an advent calendar each.
Yes.
An advent candle.
I

Claire (10:55):
bought all kinds of advent things this year.
Advent

Chris (10:57):
stable.
We've had, you know, just nicelittle things, even decorating
the Christmas tree.
There was so much putting onthe tree that was meaningful,
not just opening boxes of...
baubles that you've bought froma supermarket baubles boxes of
baubles but actually things thathave been made by yourself or
by friends things that have beengifted by friends

Claire (11:17):
our Christmas tree is the mess that you would expect
of somebody with children wherenothing matches it all looks
very different but every singlething I know where I got it from
or who gave it to me or whereit came from and they've all got
very special little memoriesattached so I really love our
tree for that so that's always anice thing you open up the box
and you're like oh I forgot Ibought this last year I made
this last year so yeah that waspretty But

Chris (11:37):
then you did say not enough lights.
It needs to have more lights.

Claire (11:40):
Yes, this year the tree looks a bit...
I think it's because we've putit in the window, so there's
quite a lot of light on it.
So the actual fairy lights, Ifeel like it's giving off less
light somehow.
Why are they called fairy

Chris (11:49):
lights?

Claire (11:50):
Maybe it's because they're small like fairies.

Chris (11:52):
Well, like fairies trapped on cords of plastic.
Prisoners.

Claire (11:58):
Yeah, I was just thinking...

Chris (11:59):
Christmas prisoners.

Claire (12:00):
Yeah, that's what people in jail do, don't they?
They're all attached by a wirewhen they walk around in the 50s
or 20s.
Poor fairies.

Chris (12:07):
We should campaign to change the name of the lights.
They probably are changed,actually.

Claire (12:10):
I'm pretty sure they're not fairy lights.
It's probably not PC.

Chris (12:13):
So, yeah.

Claire (12:15):
We have got some good things.
And the nice thing about thatis even if you're not feeling
well, there's something lovelyabout lying on a sofa and
looking at a nice Christmastree.

Chris (12:21):
That is true.
I have found myself doing thata number of times, just looking
across thinking, I can smell it.
I can see it.
It feels nice.
I found myself, and this is abig sign, I found myself going
to like on the TV menus andwhatever you're...
platform you've got on thinkingoh we could put on this
Christmas film and I'm like ohit's not Christmas yet we're too

(12:45):
far out

Claire (12:46):
I don't think we are too far out but I know what you
mean because we're going to havea lot of time like the whole of
Christmas week almost for uscould be watching Christmas
movies so we've got a lot oftime ahead so I do think we need
to save it a little bit

Chris (12:54):
yeah but don't forget we're going to be playing
Scrabble this Christmas

Claire (12:57):
it's true I got a special Scrabble set for my
birthday which we have notplayed yet

Chris (13:02):
someone might think what is a special Scrabble surely
Scrabble is Scrabble

Claire (13:06):
Well, no.
So my grandparents had aScrabble set and that's how I
got introduced to Scrabble wasplaying it with my grandparents.
And it was one of those boardsthat has a spinny bit
underneath.
You can spin the board so youcan actually see it from your
angle.
So it wasn't one person who'slooking at it upside down
constantly.
And also where the tiles go onthe board, there's little
grooves around the tiles.
So they don't move when youaccidentally hit someone else's

(13:29):
word and you have to realign it.
No, you put them in thegrooves.
And I just loved that.
And we had a normal Scrabbleboard that was just flat.
And then for my birthday, thatyou were asking for ideas and I
was like I'd love one but it'slike a second hand deluxe set
because I don't think they makethem anymore so you can get them
on eBay I was

Chris (13:43):
thinking was it called vintage but no it's deluxe

Claire (13:45):
deluxe yeah so I got one of those they don't make

Chris (13:47):
things like they used to they don't they were built to
last

Claire (13:50):
that's a sign of us being back in the 19th

Chris (13:52):
century

Claire (13:53):
old

Chris (13:54):
getting on a bit so yeah new year they'll be yes catching
up on Christmas movies andplaying Scrabble

Claire (13:59):
yes we've got a quiet Christmas we have had some
invites from family and stuffbut we've decided that this year
we're just going to be the twoof us partly because we weren't
sure how we were feeling so it'sgoing to be a quiet one but I
quite like that I like our kindof you know doing a nice roast
dinner and just enjoying thetime I think we'll have to be
intentional about not lettingall the days run into the same
sort of pattern and then gettingbored but yeah that's okay and

(14:20):
I like the freedom when you'renot feeling great to know you
can just relax you can switchoff you can do what you need to
do which is trickier obviouslyif you're staying with family or
somewhere else

Chris (14:28):
which is all well and good but to come back to
something you said a few minutesago and this taps very much
into a core theme of previousChristmas chats expectations Do
you feel like you've nailed...
Well, no, clearly you haven't,because what you were saying,
you'd have been all over theplace with expectations.
So, yes, we've put plans inplace to really keep this
Christmas quiet and minimal andjust, you know, shut the door.

(14:48):
It's the two of us.
Thanks very much.
But then even within thatsetup, there's still room for,
hang on, mistletoe.
That's better.
There's still room, just thetwo of you in the house, to get
the expectations wrong.
So how are you doing withmanaging expectations?

Claire (15:09):
Yeah, I don't actually think, now I think about it, I
have any expectations for thisChristmas.
which is probably a safe placeto be because I know in one of
the Christmas episodes wemassively explored your
experiment of having noexpectations for anything.
Let's assume it's going to goreally badly and then anything
else that happens is just abonus.
I'm not like that.
I haven't gone that low but Idon't think I've got any for it

(15:29):
at the moment and that's partlybecause of I don't know how I'm
going to be feeling and I findfor that it's just easier to
just go in without anyexpectations I know some people
are a bit like oh you knowpositive frame of mind and you
know but for me if I assume it'sgoing to be great and lovely I
look on the bright side as itwere I just get really
disappointed when it isn'treally let down, really feel sad

(15:50):
about everything and justreally gutted.
Whereas if I keep myexpectations lower or I don't
have any, then if it doesn't gogreat, you're like, OK, well, it
is what it is.
Let's get through this.
So I think we have found that'sa healthier way for us to be.
It might sound a bitpessimistic to some people, but
sometimes you just have toprotect yourself a bit from
constantly being disappointed.
And anything that goes great iseven more great because of it,

(16:12):
because you weren't expectingit.

Chris (16:13):
Summarize or recap when you say it depends how you're
feeling.
What is that to you?

Claire (16:19):
Yeah, so for me, that means mostly hormonal.
So because I'm on a treatmentat the moment that's got a lot
lower estrogen than I've had inthe past, and estrogen is a very
key hormone for maintainingbrain health, body health, it
affects a lot of things.
So because I'm on a much lowertreatment, which I need to do to
tick a box for the NHS carethat I'm under.

(16:41):
It's not a plan I wanted to do.
I don't think it's a very goodplan, but I've decided to do it
to tick this box.
So I'm on a much lower dose,which means that it can affect
my moods.
It can affect my brain.
It can affect physically how Ifeel.
It can make me a lot moretired.
And I don't know from day today, really, where those levels
are going to be.
They're not massivelyconsistent at the moment because
I haven't been on any oneproduct to keep it consistent.
So by Christmas, I might be ina more consistent place and be

(17:03):
feeling fine.
But I might also not be in avery consistent place or the
level might be too low, whichmeans I won't be feeling good.
But we knew that was coming.
And on the 2nd of January, I'vegot an appointment booked in to
have an HRT implant, which isthe first time I've ever had
something like that, which couldregulate my hormones.
So that could be an amazingthing.

(17:23):
I haven't ever got this farbefore in the treatment to have
this.
So I'm very hopeful that willbe a good change, which is why
I'm taking it up untilChristmas, as it might be good,
it might be bad.
We just don't know because I'maiming for the new year.
So I'm trying not to have areally high hopes for next year
because i think next year couldbe great if this all works out
but um taking it day at a timeat the moment

Chris (17:43):
if you're listening back to this chat from last year
you'll hear us say that we hadhigh hopes for 2024

Claire (17:47):
and the year before probably i had high hopes for 20
here he goes

Chris (17:52):
oh i'm back

Claire (17:54):
i had high hopes for 2020 that was my year that i
thought everything was going tobe amazing

Chris (17:58):
yeah the perfect vision yeah a year of clarity

Claire (18:02):
So who knows?
Didn't happen.
That's what it's taught us.
You just never know what kindof year you're going into.

Chris (18:08):
Tortoise sounds like tortoise.

Claire (18:11):
A little.
Not enough to possibly point itout.

Chris (18:14):
Okay, I understand that.
And I think a lot of that,having seen you and supported
you through much of that foryears...
On top of all the hormone stuffis just the thick frustration
that you're aware of it andcan't change it.
You can't take a paracetamol.

(18:34):
You can't have a hot toddy.
Not that we've ever had

Claire (18:39):
a hot toddy.
I don't

Chris (18:40):
even know what that is.
There's nothing.
You can't do anything to changethat.
And it's like no one is morefrustrated about those feelings
when you know it's just like,oh, it's just this sort of cloud
descends.
In fact, you wrote a reallygood blog, didn't you?
I often think of a couple ofyears back.
about almost like you'relooking through the eyes.

Claire (18:58):
Yeah, lost inside, feeling lost in your own body.

Chris (19:01):
Yeah, like those in mascot suits and you're looking
through this sort of skin andthe eyes of something else,
observing what's around you.
So yeah, totally get that.

Claire (19:10):
Yeah, it's been a long old journey.
But like I said, it's kind ofthe end of the line, this next
treatment.
So maybe that'll be what willsort everything out.
We'll have to wait and see.
Expectations

Chris (19:21):
versus hopes.

Claire (19:23):
Big thing.

Chris (19:23):
Yeah.
So we've got Christmasapproaching and we have our
plans in place.
It's going to be the two of us.
We've got some nice littlethings coming up.

Claire (19:35):
Yeah.
One thing that just crossed mymind actually that plays into
that a lot with the podcast.
One thing I have had tostruggle with is real
disappointment at the amount ofstuff I feel like I could be
doing with the podcast and withthe Herman Company, with other
stuff that I haven't managed todo or we haven't managed to do.
You know, we've had to postponea couple of podcast guest
interviews because of illnesshad to do them at a different

(19:57):
time we've delayed that we hadto not put an episode out one
week because of illness thathasn't really happened before so
I think I found that quite hardI found some real and I put a
social media post out about itactually just saying I find it
really difficult when I see allthese lovely people crafted
social media posts or peopledoing videos about the holidays
reaching out to people who mightfeel on their own and there's
so much out there and you lookat it and you think oh I should

(20:19):
be doing this stuff and there'sa real should thing on you I
should be doing that I should bepushing this I should be doing
more with the Herman company Ishould be writing more blogs
about this time of year and howI feel because I did in the past
but when you can't do any ofthat stuff because you just
mentally aren't in a place to beable to do it well I find that
hard I wrestle with that a lotletting go of that I found

(20:39):
really difficult just likethat's not me right now I can't
do everything sometimes throughChristmas and New Year we've put
an episode out in betweenChristmas and New Year every
single day we did a series onhope and where's your hope at
and how are you feeling aroundall that kind of stuff and we've
done episodes put them out onChristmas Day to help people who
might be struggling and Ireally feel like this year it's
like oh I just don't feel like Ican do any of that and that

(21:01):
makes me really sad because Iwant to But you have to know
your limits of what you can do.
And that's what I put in thesocial media post.
It's sort of know what you cando.
And I used a quote that'ssomething along the lines of, if
you've only got 40% to give,but you give 40%, you give 100%.
And that's been quite key forme to remember.
I know I'm not giving 100%because I know I can do better,

(21:22):
but I don't have it in me at themoment.
I'm just functioning at a 40%level.
But if I give that, if I keepthe podcast going, if I keep the
episodes going and getting themout, even at bare minimum, then
that's me, you know, that is100%.
So I've had to learn a lot.
So I think I'm going into thisChristmas a little bit like
having to try and let go of thatand not feel guilt about other
stuff I could be doing for otherpeople.

(21:43):
but I just don't have theenergy to sustain myself half
the time.
So, yeah, that makes me a bitsad.

Chris (21:49):
Remember as well, you've been caring for a sickly
husband.

Claire (21:52):
That's true.
I've been a carer.

Chris (21:54):
Which has been a drain on your 40% anyway.

Claire (21:58):
I said to you partway through when you were really
ill, bless you, I said, youknow, I don't want you to be
ill, obviously.
I'm not at the point where Ican say I want to take this for
you because I've had so much ofmy own illness, I didn't want
more.
But I did say there's somethingreally nice in not being the
sick one for a change and beingable to look after you.
That was actually really lovelyfor the roles to be slightly
reversed for a bit, even thoughit wasn't nice that you were

(22:18):
ill, obviously.

Chris (22:19):
And then it's not very lovely when I get better.

Claire (22:21):
And I get a cold.
Yeah, you leave me behindagain.
Don't go, don't go.
Don't get well.
I need you here.
So, yeah.
Yeah, thinking about it,there's been a lot going on and
a lot to...
sort of process, I guess, andthink about.
Again, flipping heck, Ihonestly thought that once we

(22:43):
started processing all thisstuff and thinking about it over
the years, talking about grief,all that stuff, I thought that
we'd be like, we've got this.
We know what we're doing.
We can help other peoplethrough it.
What fools?
There's loads of people outthere going, yeah, idiots.
That was never going to happen.
Yeah.
Yeah, we're still learning.
We could still be tumbling intoa Christmas that's rubbish or a

(23:05):
new year that doesn't go right.
I think

Chris (23:08):
with that in mind, it might be partly related to grief
or not, I've found...
I found the ability to cry thisyear.

Claire (23:15):
Yes, you've cried this year more than I've ever seen
you cry in my life.

Chris (23:20):
So that's been weird.

Claire (23:21):
Yeah, what's that about?

Chris (23:23):
Well, I don't know.

Claire (23:23):
A softening.
It scares me a little whenChris starts to cry.
Oh,

Chris (23:29):
dear, metal toe.
Oh, blowing my nose, breakingwind, coughing at the same time.
What a mess.
Yeah, thanks for that.

Claire (23:39):
It's because when Chris starts to cry, he looks a little
bit like he might be laughingSo I'm not entirely sure up
front what's going to happen.
I

Chris (23:47):
always try to be positive, you see.
I don't want to let on thatanything bad's happening.

Claire (23:53):
We're quite good like that, I think, if one of us is
crying.
There's quite often laughter inamongst the tears.
The other one gets the otherone to laugh.
There's something quitespecial, I think, about laughing
in the middle of crying.
A special emotion.

Chris (24:05):
But yeah, a softening, a willingness to feel...
sad feel sadnesses there's beenlots of I think actually sort
of an unrelated point there'sdefinitely been a continuation
maybe an increase in the amountof television and film stuff
that's that's born out of orbased around griefs and losses

Claire (24:30):
yeah I don't know if we're just more aware of it I
don't think we are but I thinkyeah looking back at the films I
used to enjoy that were mostlysort of happy rom-com type
things you don't get those somuch anymore but there are a lot
of There's a lot of really goodTV.
And yes, so often there's aloss or a grief right at the
heart of it.
Very obviously as well, notnecessarily like a subtle one.

Chris (24:49):
Yeah.
So even, you know, we juststarted watching on Netflix the
Man on the Inside.
Man on the Inside.
Ted Danson, who we love becauseof The Good Place.
He was great in that, wasn'the?
And there was a line in thatwhen we were watching that last
night.
I think it was episode two.
He's referring to, because he'sa widower.
Is that right?
Is it the female that's thewidow or the male that's the

(25:10):
widower?
Yeah.
So he's a widower and he justhad this little lovely line that
said, A year after my wife'sdeath or a year after her death,
I'm still very much in lovewith my wife.
And even that just made, I wasjust like, I couldn't speak
after that.
I welled up.
I was like, oh, that'sbeautiful.
Yeah.
And that would never havebothered me.

Claire (25:28):
No, it prompted a little bit of a conversation because I
said to you, I said,interesting, you think about the
grief and getting through thatand what that feels like and how
that might ease over time.
But you don't necessarily, Imean, you do think about the
love because you hear the wholekind of, you know, grief is love
with no place to go.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.

(25:49):
Mm-hmm.
just took on a new meaning i'mstill in love with them it's
quite obvious really in some wayit's not that profound but yeah
i just thought i never reallythought about it in that that

(26:11):
way in particular and at whatpoint do you admit maybe you're
not in love that should be

Chris (26:15):
one of we should definitely do a last episode on
that loss of being in lovebecause i think we're advocates
you know we we love marriage welove being married to each other
we love working on our marriageand we absolutely believe 100
that you have to work at therelationship you don't just you
Yeah.

Claire (26:52):
Yeah, because I think a lot of people say they've still
got the love for the person,obviously.
But I kind of saw it likesomething you're carrying
around.
It's just you and you've got itand there's no one to share it
with because that person's notthere.
But to be in love with somebodymeans you're still sharing it
with them after they die.
So I'd be interested to see atwhat point does it stop?
and it become just love I'vegot for that person.
I'm not in love with themanymore.

(27:13):
Because you couldn't really bein love, I wouldn't have
thought, with them for the next50 years.
Can you be in love withsomething, like you said, you
can't work on, you can't change,they're not there, you don't
know what they'd be at that age.
What you're in love with isactually someone in the past
now.
So yeah, it would be aninteresting topic to look at,
but it certainly touched yourheart.

Chris (27:33):
Yeah, it has.
So there's been a softening,there's been more openness to
sadness, there's been more...
Feeling of the feelings.

Claire (27:40):
And you've been continued to be quite good.
I know we spoke about one ofthe Christmas episodes.
You were trying to be moreintentional about telling me if
you had something that you werefinding hard about being
childless.
Something if you saw somethingthat you're like, oh, that made
me sad because we wouldn't havethat or I wouldn't have that.
You're exploring that in one ofthose episodes.
And since then, we've continuedthat as well.
Have we?
You've forgotten to do thatrecently.

Chris (28:03):
No, you certainly have.
Yeah.
I was just thinking there,because that reminded me of the
last time I did that with you,which was really helpful, was
that I was walking down thestreet near my workplace and I
was following.
So I was about 20 metersbehind, walking a lot quicker
then.
A couple, it was a dad and adaughter, walking into school in

(28:25):
the morning, hand in hand.
And I was approaching thembecause I was a six-foot-tall
guy.
I can walk a lot faster than asix-year-old girl and her dad.
That's one of my skills.
And it just struck me, thatimage of them walking hand in
hand.
I'm just thinking I'm nevergoing to feel that.

(28:48):
I'm never going to feel thetouch of a child's hand in mine.
You know, we're both tactilepeople.
We like touch.
We like hugs.
We like hugging.
And, you know, clearly parentsof small children and slightly
bigger children are veryfamiliar with the touch of their
child, of hugs, of sitting onlaps, of being with, being

(29:09):
together.
And, yeah, just as I spent the20 seconds it took me, whatever,
to overtake them.
I just felt really sad insidethat That's never going to be
something I, you know, I've notfelt that.
I won't feel that to have mychild's hand in my hand.
But rather than push it away, Ithought, no, I'm just going to

(29:29):
keep hold of that for a littlewhile.
I'm not going to be scared toallow myself to feel sad.
And I think that's when I toldyou about that one, didn't I?
And said, yeah, I was justdoing medicine.
It just made me feel a bit sadand

Claire (29:41):
it's okay.
Some people who are childlessor going through infertility
really feel the emotions.
They see something.
something like that and itbreaks them and they go back to
the office and they cry or theygo home and they cry or they
have a really bad week or theyhave a day off work or, you
know, they really take thosethings.
They feel the feelings when ithits them and they sort of
really go with it.
And I think we have always beenthe opposite.

(30:04):
And it took me a long while torealise that and to realise how
I think it can be unhealthy togo too far into it because
you'll spend your whole lifefeeling sad.
But I also think it can beunhealthy to go as far as we
went, which was more a kind of,let's be strong about it.
Let's be a good example toothers.
Let's show people we can getthrough this.
Let's, you know, we're notgoing to get broken by this.
We know we went the other way.
And in doing that, we didn'treally allow ourselves to feel a

(30:27):
lot of those feelings, partlybecause it's not easy to know
how to feel them.
If you're at a family gatheringand you're watching family with
their kids and that, at whatpoint is it appropriate to say
oh excuse me I'm finding thisreally difficult and this is
really sad for me there isn'treally a way of doing that so
you push through and you're youknow you're nice for them and
you engage as much as you canand then you go away and so I
think it's difficult to know forus especially and that won't be

(30:47):
for everybody but that has beenour experience we haven't been
the kind of people who have youknow I've known people who can't
have children who won't be inthe same room as a pregnant
person we've never been downthat road to that extreme so it
is hard so I think for usacknowledging the sad things
even though we're years awayfrom our initial infertility is
really important It is.
It is.

(31:08):
about talking about grief andwhen you say to someone how are

(31:36):
you getting on how's your dayyou don't know if that person's
about to say I'm reallystruggling because I can't have
children my husband died bysuicide my brother just lost his
leg you don't know what's goingto come up at that point you
don't get trigger warnings inlife and that's partly why we've
done it and a lot of peoplewill disagree with that and I
understand it but I think for metrigger warnings the other
thing that annoys me a littlebit about the situation with

(31:58):
childlessness is that you canread a blog or something and
they'll put a whole load oftrigger warnings at the top this
contains the P word to me agesto work out what that was that's
pregnancy

Chris (32:07):
this contains I was going to try and guess like a
Christmas quiz

Claire (32:10):
yeah exactly this contains they have all these
initials and I have to work outwhat they are and then that
tells me that people aretriggered by them so you start
thinking should I be triggeredby you know for me it just it
creates more triggers but theother thing is you don't know
what triggers somebody inchildlessness so a lot of people
might think you know it'sdifficult to tell her about my
pregnant friend or to tell herthat we're going to have a baby
or to be around her because I'mpregnant because it might

(32:32):
trigger her pregnancy's nevertriggered me it's never been
been a thing that I've had anissue with when someone else
says they're pregnant I might besad about the loss or change of
friendship coming up if I knowthem really well but I've never
been sad about the actual thepregnancy bit and that not being
me but seeing families togetherseeing little interactions with
people and their kids that'sthe sort of thing that would

(32:54):
trigger, if you want to use theword, trigger me into feeling
sad thoughts.
And you can't predict those.
I don't even know what they arehalf the time.
Other people don't know.
So as far as I'm concerned,it's impossible to find trigger
warnings for me because I don'tknow them myself.
But all this leading up to whenwe went to one of the carol
services recently and you wererecording for work and I was sat

(33:16):
in the audience with a coupleof friends and there was a kids
choir that got up And they weresinging beautifully.
There was a moment where Ilooked at a couple of the girls
at the back that were justsinging.
You know, it was such a lovelyChristmas song.
It was very faith-based, whichis how we would have liked to
have raised our children.
And I looked at them and therewas a moment then where I just
thought, oh my word, how specialwould it be to have a daughter

(33:36):
there that was one of ours?
And there's moments like that.
Now I wouldn't have, someonehad said to me, by the way,
there's a children's choir here.
Is that going to affect?
I'd have been like, what?

Chris (33:46):
Big sign on the front door.
What

Claire (33:48):
are you on about?
That's crazy.
There's choirs everywhere.
But in that moment, looking atthese beautiful kids singing so
beautifully as well, so wellbehaved at the front, there was
something in me that was justlike, oh, man, I'd love to have
had a moment of feeling proudfor one of our kids doing
something like that.
And that won't ever happen.
So I think it's, yeah, it'sinteresting how you have these

(34:08):
moments.
And I didn't share that onewith you.
But again, it comes into mymind and I just let it sit
there.
rather than be like oh you knowcrazy it won't be just move on
I think no actually I'm going tosit with this for a moment
that's something I've lost andthat's a small loss I need to
think about and sort of tinygrieve

Chris (34:24):
trigger warnings as well I think are evidence of just how
many people are unable don'thave the emotional support don't
have the help whatever toacknowledge and deal with the
the pain so it's it's behind aglass panel in their heart and
uh They're afraid that without atrigger warning, that could be

(34:47):
cracked, that could be smashed.
So there's a lot of peoplecarrying a lot of sadness, but
they just don't know how to...
tap into it and work on it.

Claire (34:57):
I think trigger warnings give people this false security
that you will get warned beforestuff happens in life.
So you can create a whole worldwhere you've got trigger
warnings on all your podcasts orall your blog posts or in this
Facebook group, but that's notthe real world.
The real world is not going togive you those.
When you open up the news pageon the BBC, there isn't a lot of
trigger warnings that thisinvolves war or child death or a

(35:20):
rapist going to prison.
There isn't a warning there foryou.
It's not all

Chris (35:24):
bad news.

Claire (35:25):
No, Okay, 100-year-old woman befriends a squirrel.
But they're not really thethings people need trigger
warnings for.

Chris (35:32):
Well, I don't know.
Well, that's true.
It depends if you've lost yourgran recently.
To a squirrel.
Or your squirrel.
Oh,

Claire (35:39):
dear

Chris (35:39):
mistletoe.

Claire (35:43):
Honestly, in those mistletoe breaks.

Chris (35:46):
Oh, goodness.

Claire (35:46):
Coughing, nose blowing, water drinking.

Chris (35:49):
It makes me realise, actually, that...
Just another little depressingthought.
I've bought...
I've bought more boxes oftissues this Christmas so far
than I have presents.

Claire (36:00):
That's because I do all the presents.

Chris (36:02):
Presents for you.
Oh,

Claire (36:04):
wow.
Wonderful.

Chris (36:06):
Yeah, there you go.
Have that one for free.
I'll look forward to that.
Plenty of times to put thatright.

Claire (36:10):
Anyway, back to our sickly, childless life.

Chris (36:14):
Oh, happy Christmas.
Merry Christmas.

Claire (36:17):
It's not all bad.

Chris (36:18):
No.

Claire (36:18):
Yeah, a lot of these things are healthy.
I don't want people feelingdepressed for us.
Well, not the sickness,obviously, but, you know, the
way we're processing andthinking about this stuff.
I think it's really healthy.
I do feel a bit embarrassedabout it in some ways because I
feel like we're doing this 10-15years after we should have been
processing it in a better waybut I think that's our story

(36:39):
that's our journey and I'mhoping that will help some
people to know you know what ifyou're 10-15 years after
something that you are nowstruggling with grief wise it's
okay to try and grieve it then Iknow it's awkward and it's
weird and I think sometimes youneed some help to do that with
people I think it's very hard onyour own to think I think I
need to grieve this but I don'tknow where to start so I think
it's important to see somebodyif you need to to talk it
through and get some helpbecause they will help you do

(37:00):
that but don't worry about doingit it still needs doing because
I really believe if we don't doit you just carry it forward
into another grief or intoanother year and it can affect
other things so I'm hoping ourstory is one that helps people
know they can grieve at any timefor anything

Chris (37:17):
definitely which is quite hard to accept Because, you
know, if you're like me, if youwant to be an achiever, I was
raised to be an achiever, Ithink, you don't want to
consider spending years of yourlife having to work on
something.
You know, it pains me, I findthis regularly, that friends,
whether it's just on a WhatsAppmessage or a conversation, when

(37:40):
you catch up with friends you'venot seen for X months...
you know, what's going on?
How are you doing?
What's new?
I really don't like thequestion, what's new?
Because I'd love to be able toanswer it with lots of new.
And it's just nothing.
Nothing is new.
When I catch up with friends,family, it pains me that there's
nothing to really say.
It's just like we use the wordplodding along, bobbing along.

(38:03):
It's like, yeah, nothing reallychanges for us.
Things are the same now as theywere last year, pretty

Claire (38:09):
much.
Yeah.
And there are ways that, youknow, I feel like, would some
people be thinking well you knowchange that there's lots of
ways to change that but at thisstage in our life where we are
partly because of my healthstuff probably we're not really
in a position to change that abecause most changes and things
you go and do and experiencecost money so we don't do a lot
that costs money because we'recautious about stuff like that

(38:30):
so we're not going out for mealsall the time or getting
takeaways or joining new clubsor starting hobbies or you know
those sorts of things every timeyou look at something should we
do this you It just costs thatbit of extra money and you're
like, well, yeah, we're not in aplace right now where we want
to spend it on that.
So we hold back on that or it'sa health thing.
So I'm not feeling great.
So it's not worth spendingmoney or time on something where
you're not going to enjoy itfully.

(38:50):
So I think that's the other sadthing is there's loads of ways
we can improve it, but we feellike we can't.

Chris (38:55):
That stuff, though, is that stuff's not going to impact
more than a day of your life,is it?

Claire (39:00):
Well, it depends if you started a new ongoing hobby

Chris (39:02):
or

Claire (39:02):
something.
If

Chris (39:03):
this Christmas you see somebody, a member of the family
you've not seen for a while,and they say, oh, so what's new?
And you're like, oh, he wentout for a meal four weeks ago.
That doesn't make much of animpact, I think, for us.

Claire (39:14):
No, it feels like you're doing something.

Chris (39:15):
When you said at our stage of life, I think for us,
to change something, it needs tobe quite drastic.
It needs to be...
You know, me quitting my job orgetting another job.
It's a different part of thecountry, different part of the
world.
It needs a house move.
It needs something that's a bigenough point in your year.
So when it comes to the, notthat we do this, but the

(39:36):
newsletters at Christmas, you'veactually got something to talk
about.
It's like, you know, we didsomething big this year.
We had a big trip.
Because you don't report thethings like a takeaway.

Claire (39:46):
No, but if you had a new hobby or something, if you were
really getting into...
I don't know, pottery orshooting or something you picked
up and you started gettingreally good at it.
Why did you come up withpottery or shooting?
I don't know.
Just two random extremes ofthings you could do.
There would be some new stuffthere.
It doesn't have to be somethingmassive.
But I'm just saying, even forwhether it's something massive

(40:07):
or something tiny, we're notreally in a position to do any
of that.
Partly because of my healthstuff and partly because of
money restrictions.
It's not something we can justchange.
I think that's part of thefrustration.
It's not just there's nothingnew.
It's that we're also feeling alittle bit powerless to even
know how to make it new when wedon't have the stuff that we'd
like.
Well, we're far too sensible,aren't we,

Chris (40:27):
really?
I don't know, maybe sensible isthe wrong word.
But sometimes, I guess, becausewe've been in that place for so
long where we just need to takecare.
Yeah.
That you move away from takingrisks.
whether that's financial oremotional, physical.

Claire (40:41):
Yeah, especially with health stuff as well.
You don't want to take a riskon a big adventure or holiday or
something and then spend thewhole time feeling rough.
You kind of want to wait untilyou're going to be amazing and
then take the

Chris (40:51):
risk.
Example of that is that 2025will definitely, hopefully, end
with, or near the end...
We'll be recording our 2025Christmas episode, having
returned tanned from a couple ofmonths in Australia.

Claire (41:08):
Yes, that's the plan.
So we decided almost a coupleof years ago, it was quite a
long time ago, last year if notthe year before, that we were
going to try and do something inthe year 2025 because it was
our 20th wedding anniversary.

Chris (41:19):
Massive celebration.

Claire (41:20):
Yeah.
We have a distant relative ofyours that's in Australia.

Chris (41:24):
Big up, David.

Claire (41:26):
He was a very keen listener on his train.
And he's been saying, you know,come visit.
And we were like, OK, well, whynot?
We know someone out there.
Let's try and do it.
So, yeah, so we sort ofpenciled it in and now we're
within the year of it.
So it's getting more serious.
So the aim is next year to do acouple of months in Australia
at the end of the year, whichwe're very much looking forward
to.
That's the western side ofAustralia, probably.

Chris (41:46):
But it means, you know, it does mean a lot of saving.
It does mean a lot of thinking,planning, health-wise.
hrt wise what on earth sort ofplace will you be in physically
when when it comes to that time

Claire (41:58):
yeah because one of the previous treatments i was on
would involve me taking over 500sachets of the gel that i'm on
in my suitcase that's one offour treatments so that kind of
thing stresses me out a littlebit because i'm like oh i'd love
to be on a treatment thatdidn't involve taking bucket
loads of medication on holidayyeah so we're very hopeful that
you know with this new implanti'm looking at and things
changing that next year could becould be a good year and you

(42:21):
know 20 years of marriage I meanthat's a good step a lot of
childless couples don't make itthrough in their marriage so
it's a big thing and that's whatwe mean that you know we've
worked at it we've worked at itand we've worked through a
situation that some marriagesdon't survive and I think that's
worth patting ourselves on theback about but also it reminds
me that in one of the previousChristmas episodes you were
saying that when you think aboutnot having children you think

(42:42):
about not having a baby and yousaid to me what age do I think
about if I think about ourchildren and I had them heading
into teenage years and we weresaying how interesting it was
that we had those differentimages but I was saying to
someone the other day you knowif we'd have got pregnant a year
after we got married we'd havea 19 year old our kid would be
at uni that would

Chris (43:01):
be weird

Claire (43:01):
that's so bizarre to think that not only are we
missing out on these littlestages that we see, but now
we've missed out on the fullspectrum right up to university,
which is, yeah, it's a littlescary.
And I hope that puts it inperspective sometimes for people
because we've got a lot offriends who've got very young,
small children, and theyprobably see us as not having
young, small children like theyhave.
So when you sometimes pointout, actually, our children

(43:23):
would be potentially like 19years old it shows you how long
our journey's been even thoughinfertility didn't start we
weren't trying to get pregnantstraight after we got married so
I think our kids have been near15 but even so that's a big big
thing to sit and you knowponder on for a bit we could
always be grandparents

Chris (43:41):
we probably could be

Claire (43:42):
some people have kids at 19

Chris (43:43):
yeah And that taps into something we've spoken about
over the years as well, justlike the big pause.
Society sort of dictates thatthis is what happens in life.
And then, you know, we did theeducation, university, serious
relationship, engaged, married,whatever else.
And then after marriage for us,Life sort of paused.

(44:05):
And here we are now still.
Waiting for death.
I think society's sort of givenup on us.
It's like, actually, no, you'renot going to do anything else.
So I guess the next thing forus in the society step, we'll
get back on the train inretiring.
So between marriage andretiring, probably.

Claire (44:22):
Which I don't want to think about because I'm out of a
job at the moment.
So I don't feel like I've gotanything to retire from.
So I need to get back intowork.

Chris (44:29):
But

Claire (44:29):
yeah.
To retire from something.

Chris (44:30):
Well, you do have work.

Claire (44:33):
I do.
Yes.
But I'd like to be in somethingthat's paying me.
Money.
It's all about the money.
Rather than compliments.
But yeah, I do have work to do.
I do enjoy what I do.
But it'd be lovely to be doingsomething that was
financially...

Chris (44:50):
Rewarding.

Claire (44:51):
Rewarding, yeah.
I'm so grateful for everyonewho helps the podcast and
supports it financially.
It blows my mind that peopleare willing to do that.
And so it doesn't cost meanything to do.
And there's bits of extramoney, which is great, because
obviously I can put that intothings like the Herman Company
and making Hermans.
And I get a little bit of moneyfrom each sale of those, which
is also great.
But I've never taken a wagefrom any of this.
So it's never supported usfinancially.

(45:13):
It just supports itself, whichis great.
But I don't know.
Maybe we won't really retire.
Maybe we'll be...
I'd like to be someone whonever fully retires as such.
We'll be in our 80s.
But it's busy all the time.
We're on

Chris (45:24):
loss number 92 out of 101.

Claire (45:28):
Why on earth would it only be 92 if we're in our 80s?
What happened there?
It's

Chris (45:33):
taken a long time

Claire (45:33):
to get there.
I thought you were going to saylost like 950 or something, not
like 92.
Yeah,

Chris (45:37):
that's true.
We just kept going.

Claire (45:38):
To be a bit more positive,

Chris (45:40):
yeah.
Right.

Claire (45:40):
Had a massive 20, 30 year gap.
It's taken a

Chris (45:43):
long time.
Good point, yeah.

Claire (45:44):
Yeah, yeah.

Chris (45:44):
We're on loss number 900,000.

Claire (45:47):
Well, last time, last Christmas, We were pleased that
we were sort of heading for justover the halfway mark.
Now we're heading lost 60 inthe new year.
So we're doing well on 101.
And so,

Chris (45:58):
you know, we get so much encouragement from the comments
that we receive, particularlyfrom those that we meet and we
interview those that give ustheir time.
And then others that havebecome loyal supporters and
listeners of the episodes.
You know, it's so heartwarmingwhen you just see just one
comment.
It's meaningful.

(46:20):
It has depth.
It has explanation.
It's just like, oh, they'reworthwhile.

Claire (46:24):
And I really try and find the right guests.
I get a lot of emails frompublicists and people who work
for people.
I can't believe how many peopleout there who have written a
book have got somebody workingfor them that just approaches
every podcast they can find toget them on it.
It fascinates me.
But I get a lot of emails.
Oh, someone's just written abook about this and that and
it's all grief related.
But they haven't, they don'treally know anything about our

(46:45):
podcast.
They don't know what missionwe're on.
And I've got braver about beinga lot stricter with them that
if they're going to come on theyneed to listen to a few
episodes they need to know whatwe're talking about they need to
be prepared to open up to thelevel that we want to chat about
and kind of be on board withour whole mission because I
really want our guests to be youknow authentic stories that
will help our listeners I'venever said yes to anyone just

(47:07):
because they've messaged andthey've got a book out on grief
I really want it to be peoplethat are inspiring and because
of that there's so many lovelyguests we've got on and I you
know I feel like I'm I'm easilystill in touch with them I could
message almost Thank you somuch.

(47:35):
but it's something that you'vebeen through in your grief that
you want to pass on to othersthat will outlive you.
And if we can have 101 bits ofadvice for people from people
who have been through it, say,this is how you get through

(47:56):
grief.
This is how I held on when itwas hard.
This is what I want you toknow.
Then like, you know, what aspecial thing, what a legacy to
have.
And I can't wait to, well, Isort of can wait because it'll
be an editing nightmare.
But at some point I want those101 Hermans shortened,
obviously, and then just puttogether.
So I've got this massiveHermontage of all of the advice
for you about grief.

(48:17):
Maybe even a book.

Chris (48:18):
It will be a long one, a couple hours.

Claire (48:20):
Probably.
If I can get them all down to30 seconds, I might get it under
the air.
You're not

Chris (48:24):
going to do

Claire (48:24):
that.
they're all too heartfelt andlong

Chris (48:27):
yeah yeah there's too much meaning in them to chop
them down to 30 seconds which isnice but yeah we started our
conversation with lots ofalliteration around the letter c
and i'm going to use another cword community oh good i think
all of that you know thestrength of community of you've
built around the podcast hasbeen brilliant really really
nice

Claire (48:46):
i love that each of them i hope they do anyway they feel
like they're part of this kindof 101 family like we're
building it gradually but onceyou've got your number in there
you are one of them so So yeah,hopefully that'll be something
that they feel proud to be partof.
That's the aim anyway.
But yeah, we've got aninteresting episode coming out
in the new year, the next one,number 60.
I'll give you a teaser aboutthat one.

(49:07):
And we're looking at loss, butthrough good things.
So when you have a goodtransition in life, when
something happy happens to you,but there's loss attached to it,
or you have a sense of loss orgrief as you go through the good
stuff.
And I think that's somethingthat people will, some people
will really identify with thatinstantly.
They'll know what that means.
And some people will be a bitcurious about that.
maybe haven't experienced it.
So I'm looking forward to thatepisode going out.

Chris (49:29):
It's a difficult one to explain.

Claire (49:30):
It is.
I'm really grateful for theguest for sharing it and coming
forward to talk about it becauseit could look like you're just
being very ungrateful.
Like something good's happened,but oh, I'm sad.
But actually, it is somethingthat other previous guests have
mentioned to me.
When people have got marriedafter they've lost a spouse or
something, there's this sense ofhappiness and this is lovely
and great and there's a lot oflove there, but it comes with a
sense of grief because of whatwent before and that can happen

(49:53):
in all kinds of differentsituations.

Chris (49:55):
Yeah.
the way you said it there thatis something I think I can
relate to that feeling ofsomething good's happening why
do I feel sad

Claire (50:04):
yeah Yeah, I think that's probably the case with a
lot of different people who aregrieving, but especially with
childlessness, perhaps.
You can be at some reallylovely events, lovely moments
for other people or be sharing alovely moment when they're
telling you about it and justfeel a deep inner sadness that
it's not something that you willever experience firsthand.
So yeah, I think for somepeople, they'll really know
instantly what that means andfeels like.

(50:25):
But it's good to educate otherpeople because we don't want to
make the assumptions whensomeone's going through
something great that it's allgood.
They might be struggling withit and that's okay.
So another way of helpingpeople have conversations about
grief in a more authentic way

Chris (50:38):
so high hopes for 2025 yes bring it on no no hang on
it's Christmas first Christmasfirst on the new year on
Christmas

Claire (50:46):
we'll be back I'm sure with another episode in the new
year to let you know how it allwent and then we'll start our
101 losses again.
I've also got some Let's Chatsready to go.
So yeah, it's exciting already.

Chris (50:56):
And we will both be healthy.

Claire (50:58):
That's the plan.
And don't forget about Herman.
If you know somebody who'sfeeling sad, I've had some
lovely feedback lately frompeople who've either bought
Hermans for themselves, justgoing through a tough time and
just needing a bit of courageand wanting Herman with them.
Or, you know, if you knowsomeone who's grieving.
And like I said in my lastnewsletter, I think it was, or
the Herman post, doesn't have tobe specifically for Christmas

(51:19):
Day or New Year's Day oranything like that.
he's not a gift thatnecessarily works with loads of
other gifts he's a lovelysurprise on a normal day just a
normal day someone's goingthrough they're the hardest days
sometimes Christmas might bedifficult for people but the day
after when you're sat on yourown reflecting on it can be even
harder sometimes so a Hermanturning up on a normal day I
think is one of the best thingsthat people could get so they're

(51:42):
on the websitethehermancompany.com don't
forget about those if you knowsomeone going through something
tough and yeah that's it reallyif you want to support the
podcast we're always gratefulfor financial support support
that's on buymeacoffee.com slashthe silent y and there's lots
of other ways you can support uswe love getting reviews on
apple podcasts sharing anepisode with a friend that's
huge posting an episode onsocial media for us all that

(52:04):
kind of stuff just helps us in ahuge way if you can't support
financially so there is awebsite page for supporting us
and all the things you can doand they don't all cost money so
if there's anything else youwant to do to help us support
this mission then pop over there

Chris (52:16):
and not forgetting just making contact dropping a
message on social media or oremailing thesilentwhy at
gmail.com.
It's just lovely to hear from

Claire (52:25):
you.
It is lovely to hear from you.
Someone sent me a message theother day.
I don't know if it had a nameon it even, but it just said
they'd gone through a particularkind of grief and they told me
what it was.
And that was it.
And I just thought how lovelythat someone felt like they just
wanted to share with somebodyand they used our website
contact form just to type thatinto.
And I'll always reply.
So yeah, it's lovely to hearfrom people, even if it's just
to say this is what I'm goingthrough because you feel like

(52:46):
you want to tell somebody.
We're always here for that.
So yeah, it's really lovely tohear from people.
Always.
I'm that needy.
And if you haven't checked itout yet, then you definitely
need to check out Christmas Tree2024, which is on Chris's
Instagram, @Chrissandys.
which is the video we makeevery year of us collecting our

(53:07):
Christmas tree it's getting moreelaborate with the production
so I don't know what we're goingto do next year but yeah it's
always something fun to give youa smile and you can check out
obviously the Silent Y socialmedia we're on most things and
also Herman is on Instagramwhere you can see pictures of
him and I post pictures of otherpeople's Hermans when they send
them to me as well Hermans havebeen travelling around the
world more than me I'm veryjealous of the pictures I get

(53:28):
from Hermans in America in Indiathey're all over the place so
yeah if you want to see thosethen check out
Instagram - @thehermancompany

Chris (53:34):
well travelled.
They are indeed.
Are we doing a Hopi or a HappyChristmas?

Claire (53:39):
I feel like we should be different and stick with Hopi.

Chris (53:41):
Hopi.
It's

Claire (53:42):
always good to have hope.
Not everyone will be happy.
You can have hope.
You can't merge the two wordsbecause they both start with H.

Chris (53:48):
Hopi?
Yeah, let's stick with...
It's a different thingaltogether.

Claire (53:51):
You'd like that.
You love hops.

Chris (53:53):
Wishing you...
Oh, yes, that's true.
I was thinking bouncing.
Oh, yeah, not rabbits.
As opposed to...
More beer.
Yeah.
The sweet smell of a fresh hop.

Claire (54:01):
Yeah, you're pining for that at the moment.

Chris (54:03):
Wishing you a nice case a very hopey

Claire (54:07):
christmas

Chris (54:13):
we wish you a hopey christmas we wish you a hopey
christmas okay

Claire (54:20):
I was going to see what shape your lips made to see if
you're going to start with we orhope.
We wish you a hopey Christmas.