Chris & Claire's top takeaways from 20 years of marriage

Episode Transcript
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Claire (00:02):
Hello and welcome to The Silent Why podcast.
This is a podcast that isexploring all kinds of loss,
grief and chasing to see if wecan find hope through them.
I'm Claire.

Chris (00:12):
I'm Chris.

Claire (00:13):
And today we're doing something a little bit different
because tomorrow, at the timeof recording this, it's going to
be our 20th wedding anniversary, so we thought we'd do an
episode reflecting on that andsharing what we believe have
been the top things that haveallowed us to continue this far
and still be happily married.
And we're not going to havetime to edit this one because it
goes out in about 48 hours, sowe're just going to see where

(00:35):
this takes us.
So we've each written down fivethings that we think has been
the key to our relationshipbecoming what it is, and we
haven't shared them with eachother, so we have no idea what
the other one has put down, andat the end of this, we might
have 10 keys, as it were, or wemight have five, if we've all
put the same things is it betterif we have five, because it

(00:57):
shows our total agreementprobably.

Chris (00:59):
Yes, it probably does look good if we've got five, so
if we have 10 disaster, don'tshare the episode, yeah although
that's more tips for otherpeople to maybe apply if they
want to.

Claire (01:08):
But yes, we'll see.
So to give you some context toour relationship, we met in 2002
.
I was 20 at the time, chris was22.
We had a long distancerelationship for the first
couple of years.
Got married in 2005 when I was23, nearly 24.
And Chris was only just 26.
Feels like babies back then andsince then we've had our own

(01:28):
losses to face in this time,including money, pets, family
members including sevengrandparents friends, friends'
children, health, identity,dreams, futures that we hoped
for, and the biggest one thatled us right here to begin the
podcast journey was infertilityand then childlessness.
But through all this, one thingwe've really made an effort to

(01:49):
make a priority of is ourmarriage and our relationship,
and we've worked hard on this.
We've been on courses, we'velearned about our personalities,
we found coping mechanisms forwhen things are hard and I went
into detail on some of that inthe last episode, which was a
blog about how to cope when yourmental health takes a hit, and
I shared some of the ways thatwe've navigated this in our
marriage.
And so we thought let's look atall of this, everything we've

(02:10):
learned, everything we'vethought about individually.
When we look back, what do wethink have been the keys to a
good relationship?
But we're not calling them keys.
I think we call them uzis, uzisyeah, aziz, aziz, aziz yeah.

Chris (02:24):
Aziz, aziz, aziz.
I'm conscious that what'sworked for us won't work for
somebody else.
It might work for somebody else, won't work for everyone else,
because everyone is uniquelydifferent.
Everyone's circumstances,family setup, background,
baggage is very different.
So I'm quite conscious that Iwant to share what's worked for
us and really hope and pray thatit might inspire somebody else,

(02:46):
but I don't like that sort of Ican guarantee.
Here's five things that willhelp you or your marriage,
whatever.
So I want to make them personal.
I want to call them Aziz.

Claire (02:56):
Makes sense.
It's like grief, isn't it?
There's no five ways to getthrough grief and loss.
We can't do that.
It's too complicated, it'sindividual, our relationship is
individual, so let's go withus-ies.

Chris (03:07):
Us-ies, okay, us-ies.

Claire (03:09):
Okay, so us number one.
So you kick off.

Chris (03:13):
And if I share, so if my first us-ie is reminiscent of
your or one of your five how areyou going to butt in?

Claire (03:22):
So if mine is similar to yours, I'll shuffle mine so it
comes straight after yours, sothat we can see that they're
similar, right?
So yeah, we'll do that as we goalong.

Chris (03:29):
Okay, and if I'm looking at my notes and I see in the
periphery vision your arms goingupright like you're celebrating
, I will know that we're in tune.

Claire (03:37):
Ah, I know I might keep it a secret till the end.
You might not know that my usis the same, sorry, oh.
And the other thing is we'vegiven ourselves two words
maximum to title it, yeah.
So if any of them match exactly, that would be amazing.
I don't think they will becauseI think, knowing both of us,
we've tried to be a littlecreative with it.
Or not, I don't know, but we'llsee.

Chris (03:57):
Any sort of, are you?

Claire (03:59):
feeling the pressure.
I'm feeling the pressure of notediting Great.
Getting pressure of not editinggreat, getting this right.
No, no, I don't feel thepressure.

Chris (04:05):
20 years of marriage I'm not competitive all the things
we've learned through comethrough all of our mindsets, our
choices, our decisions, allthat sort of stuff.
Now we're trying to boil itdown into five basic things us
number one okay, I'll go firsttwo words.
So my first one desire, desire,improvement.

Claire (04:23):
No, not even close, oh okay.

Chris (04:26):
So what I'm saying here for me is and this is
reminiscent when you hear peopletalking about like if they're
in recovery from something, it'sgot to start with a choice.
I feel like a big foundationalstone of our marriage and of me
individually, is to desireimprovement, and I'm underlining
the word desire.

(04:47):
You've got to want it, you'vegot to like it, you've got to
wish for it, got to pray for it,got to go after it.
To desire improvement.
Is that making sense so far?

Claire (04:56):
yeah, okay, you made so many notes in your book that I'm
expecting like a little essayon all of these.

Chris (05:00):
No, no no, no, no.
The helpful.
And some example.
I wanted to get some examplesin there.
If I'm not a somewhat healthyman, so this is the individual.
But if I'm not somewhat healthyin myself, in my mindset, my
attitudes, what I bring to thetable, and how am I going to be
a somewhat healthy husband?
So that's where it starts forme that, yeah, I, I've got to

(05:23):
want it, I've got to desire it.
If I don't want it, don'tdesire it, I'm not going to give
myself to it.
So how much do I want it?
And to improve, and that hasbeen something I've been open to
for the entire length of ourmarriage, open to improvement.
And I have become conscious inthe last 10 years, certainly,
well, five years, let's say,becoming aware.

(05:45):
Actually I need to keepdesiring improvement, not least
in the last 10 years, certainly,well, five years, let's say,
becoming aware.
Actually I need to keepdesiring improvement, not least
to change, but remaining open toit.
That starts with me wanting,enjoying, pursuing, liking
improvement.

Claire (05:56):
Yeah, I think that's part of your personality, isn't
it?
There's that perfectionistelement in you that you always
want to be better at things,you're wanting to improve
yourself.
You don't really just let go ofstuff and let it be bad and be
okay with that, and I thinkthat's been a lovely thing.
It's one of the things I lovedabout you.
It also has its challenges,obviously, because you have a
very strong inner critic, but Ithink, yeah, that's really

(06:19):
helpful and to have that in arelationship is really important
, because, if not, you can veryeasily just slip back into.
Oh well, you know what this is,who I am.
Now.
I'm not quite who I want to be,but that's it, you know.
Just accept me, you married me.
This is what you've got, and Ithink that can be quite a
slippery slope, so I've beenvery grateful that you, you want
that, and I think we've beenpretty good at that this podcast

(06:39):
is an example.

Chris (06:40):
I think let's start with a nice topical example the
podcast we started it.
What three years ago?

Claire (06:45):
Four in September Four years ago.

Chris (06:47):
Yeah, really yeah, four years, and in that time you know
it wasn't easy at the start andI think I probably brought more
to it.
That made it harder than itcould have been, because you've
always been just very naturaland very open and very able to
be yourself, whereas I I camemore as a performer, as a
professional, wanting things,demanding things, desiring

(07:10):
things, and you know we had towork on how we did it together,
because you're always quite keenon.
You know this has to besomething we do as a team.
It's teamwork.
We want it to be fun, we wantto be an enjoyable experience,
whereas I would tend to putother things above that the
quality of the editing of, or,you know, whatever, how it looks
, how it sounds.

(07:31):
So so doing this together overfour years has meant that I've
had to want to work to be abetter partner in this podcast,
to be a better supporter of you,a champion of you, more able to
work on myself, to relax more,to let go of some of my
perfectionist stuff and, as aresult, I think we are chatting

(07:55):
better and enjoying the processmore now than we were.
You know I'm not sayingeverything is rosy, because it's
not always easy, but doingdoing better now than we were
three and a half years ago.

Claire (08:06):
Yeah, and that was a hard journey for you because you
came out of you know yourbackground is broadcasting.
You've spent your whole workinglife with headphones and a
microphone nearby.
That's just what you do.
And it was a tricky journey foryou to learn that actually
radio broadcasting is differentfrom podcasting and I don't
think a lot of people wouldrealise that.
We didn't realise that.
But you start to think, oh,actually you know there's a way

(08:28):
that you do things on the radiothat you don't do in podcasting.
So that's been hard because youknow you learn a lot of stuff
and perfected it in your job andthen you had to relearn it a
little bit for this.

Chris (08:45):
So yeah, Particularly with the subject vulnerability
as well, rather than justpolished perfection.

Claire (08:50):
Yeah, yeah, excellent.
Well, I haven't got that one,so we've definitely got one us
OK, so not a great start.
Constant communication doesn'tsound very sexy, but this is the
first thing that I think cameto me.
I have been so grateful for thefact that we have always

(09:11):
communicated, and I mean thatlike even at the times when we
didn't want to, when it wasreally difficult, when there
were topics we didn't want tochat about.
When we first met, we were aboutthree hours away in the car
from each other for the firsttwo years, and so that meant
seeing each other every otherweekend, something like that.
So a lot of our communicationwas done on the phone and I

(09:33):
think that set us up for areally good starting place,
because we really got to knoweach other well.
Well, before we even saw eachother in the flesh.
We kind of you know, back thenthere wasn't any Facebook and
stuff, so we didn't even reallyknow what each other looked like
.
It was a bit of a love is blindsituation which you don't watch
, so you won't get that.
It was nothing like love isblind it was a bit like that,
and so we learned communicationfrom the start.

(09:54):
But I've been reallyappreciative how everything
we've been through they've beenwe've communicated, even at the
point where we've been able tosay to each other I hate talking
about this subject or I don'twant to talk about this subject,
but I think we need to.
And I've had to learncommunication, particularly when
I've not been well and when mymind's been particularly foggy
or angry or feeling a bitvicious or evil.

(10:17):
I've had to learn how tocommunicate that in a different
way than I probably would havewanted to, naturally, which
could have been quite nasty, Ithink.
So through that there's beencommunication.
When we first met, I feel likewe've always wanted to chat
about things.
When they go wrong, let's lookat that.
Why did that go wrong?
What happened?
What were you thinking?
What was I thinking?
I think there's you can easilyslip into assuming what somebody

(10:40):
else thinks in a relationship.
I don't think we've done that alot, which I think has been
good, because when we have donethat it tended to have gone
wrong.
I think we can debate anddisagree quite well Not always,
but I think even that level ofcommunication.
I love being able to do that.
I love that.
We've been on things likemarriage courses which have
taught us how to communicate,especially when things are bad
or you're looking at pasthistory or baggage you might

(11:01):
have brought into therelationship, learning how to
look at that.
When we've gone through griefand loss, family stuff, when
things are difficult with eitherside of our families, we talk
about that between us, ourthought processes, just I think
it's just been a really strongtheme of communicating what
we're going through, even ifit's difficult um I don't think
we've let that drop and I thinkthat's been well.

(11:22):
The top us for us is how we'vekind of communicated.
Does that link with one ofyours?
Well?

Chris (11:30):
yeah, there are echoes of in one of mine, but not
explicitly.

Claire (11:35):
No, that doesn't count.
I had echoes, I think, in yourfirst one of a couple of mine,
but it wasn't a direct yeah.

Chris (11:41):
But I hear you totally and I agree and I almost think
oh yeah, should I knock one of?

Claire (11:46):
my, I think we're going to have this with us.
I'm like, oh no, that's areally obvious one.
I should have had that.
That is something we haveprided ourselves.

Chris (11:53):
That's the right word, isn't it?
Prided us, prored?
We didn't prod ourselves onsince we got married and, as you
say, I didn't.
Even we didn't take it forgranted at the time because we
knew at the time the benefit ofit, but because we spent what?
Two years?

Claire (12:08):
Yeah, with a bit of a long distance relationship.

Chris (12:10):
It was a long distance, it's, you know, three hours
apart.
So a lot on the phone in thoseearly months, early, well early
months of our relationshipdeveloping.
In times of upset, in times ofstress, we would say, you know,
don't hang up.
Of upset, in times of stress,we would say, you know, don't
hang up.
You know there was thattendency to say look, you know,
let me hang up and I'll give youa call back and say no, no,
just stay there, stay therelet's.

Claire (12:31):
Let's sort of just get used to this awkwardness in a
way, let's not be afraid of theawkward yeah, and even when,
like we were saying this someonethe other day, when we'd come
together for the weekend, we'dbe so excited we were going to
see each other again, because itmight have been two, three
weeks sometimes and then we'dget together and they have like
48 hours together effectively,and there was so much pressure
on that to enjoy it and for itto be good, because you knew it
was ending the next day almostsometimes we'd get together and

(12:54):
then we'd find it really awkwardto get on with each other, but
you had to make the most of itquickly because it was about to
end and even in that, you know,we had to really talk about and
notice these things like, oh,we've noticed this.

Chris (13:03):
We need to be careful of it.
Yeah, that's a big thing we've.
We have been very good at thatthat we identify and vocalize, I
think, recognize, get it outthere and then and then we can
well not not necessarily avoidit, but just know what it is
when it happens.
Yeah, so I think we've always,in different situations, been
very good at recognizing inadvance.

(13:24):
This has happened before.
Let's be aware of it happeningagain and we'll deal with it
there's a great example.

Claire (13:29):
Even this week I don't think you'll mind me sharing
this because we haven't talkedabout it before but, um, I asked
you last week or recently areyou okay?
And you're like yeah, I'm fine,but you felt it felt like you
were a little bit off, not notoff with me, but you were just
off colour slightly, which isunusual for you.
So when it happens, it feelsquite obvious and you're like
I'm fine.
So I'm like, okay, it's fine,but you didn't seem quite fine.

(13:51):
And then later on we weretalking about it, I think we
were talking, and you said oh,when I said I was fine, I am
fine, there's small, but thefact that you were able to then
communicate that to me was sohelpful in that, in that example
I think I was saying that I'mwhen, I'm saying I'm fine, I'm

(14:14):
saying there's nothing betweenyou and.

Chris (14:15):
I there's nothing there.
There's no atmosphere, there'snothing wrong.

Claire (14:19):
We are fine, but I'm just a bit weird yeah whereas
you, whereas you weren'tthinking that you would have
been reassured by me saying that, yes, and it happened again
later and you were like I'm fine, but I do feel a bit off, and I
was like great, because I knowthat feeling.
I totally know what that feelslike it happened yesterday.

Chris (14:36):
I was feeling not myself slightly odd mood, a little bit
lost, and you were like are youall?
Right and I was like aha, ah,no, yes, this is like that.
So let me think about this.
And I said you know, there'sabsolutely nothing wrong between
us, we are fine, I'm fine, butI just feel a bit off, a bit

(14:57):
disconnected, a bit.
Um, yeah, mood's a bit weird.
And you were like oh yes, thankyou, that's, that makes sense.
That's a much better answer.

Claire (15:04):
Yeah yeah, because I can .
Then I can just think, okay,that's fine, I'm gonna leave you
to it, I know it's nothing Ineed to deal with or nothing
I've done, and then just, yeah,we can just see how that goes.
But I think you know even that20 years, that's such a tiny
little thing, but we're able tostill communicate about that and
I think that's you know, andpeople listening to this, well,
that's completely alien to them,because some people will listen

(15:26):
and be like, oh my word, likeI'd never get my husband to be
able to do that, my husbandwould never say that or whatever
.
I think it's just little things.
I think it starts by opening upyourself and being honest and
then gradually just getting to apoint where you can do this.
And I think the fact we couldhave that conversation was 20
years of working on it, eventhough it seemed like something
you'd do in year one.
It was such a simple thing, butit was a really helpful thing

(15:48):
and we were able to have thatconversation easily because of
all the other conversationswe've had and everything we've
worked on.

Chris (15:53):
So I'm very grateful for that it does lead into my second
Uzi quite nicely.
So my first was desireimprovement.
Your first was constantcommunication.
I've made note of that in myjournal.
And then my second.
I'm trying to be clever.
I'm trying to think like at-shirt designer.
My second one is love workscarry on.
I'll tell you if it links withone of mine when I say love

(16:15):
works it's sort of that twomeaning like love works, but
love works, like love works nice.
That's what I'm thinking, andthen I wrote down in my journal
love works where love works.

Claire (16:29):
Oh wow, you did go deeper into this than I did.

Chris (16:32):
I was picturing T-shirts.
Is there a T-shirt?
No, there's not.
But to stop working is to stoploving, and this is a more
common or a wider felt thing inour society that love is a
feeling and you can fall out oflove with someone.
You can stop loving someonebecause it's based on feelings.

(16:53):
But for our marriage to havehad so much meaning and value
and our companionship to havebeen so great is because we work
at staying in love and whatthat means for us it's more than
a feeling, more than an emotion, more than a lust.
Um, a few notes I've made.
It's too easily confused with.
Like you know, you hear loveused a lot, don't you cake?

(17:17):
pizza I love that video, pizza,nice pair of trousers, um.
The same love won't ever keepour marriage healthy.
I'm talking about the love thatand this again, this is me
writing down.
I'm talking about a love whichbreaks you down.

Claire (17:31):
It breaks you open, it reveals your innermost
vulnerabilities and then says Ilove you more oh, I would
terrify some people, but I getit, but it can be, but I have
said.

Chris (17:41):
You know it can be very hard work at times.
It's not always pleasant.

Claire (17:44):
it can be, but I have said you know, it can be very
hard work at times.

Chris (17:45):
It's not always pleasant.
It can be unpleasant.
It's very easy to avoid.
Yeah.
When there's distractions, it'sreally easy to avoid.
It can be painful, it can befrustrating, it can be
nonsensical.
At times it doesn't make sensewhile you're doing this bit of
work.
But, yeah, what does it looklike to work?

(18:09):
What do I mean by working andlove working?
Uh, I put talking, talking,talking.
So that links into your lastport constant communication.
Yeah, as well as things likemarriage courses, counselors,
trusted friends, looking inside,looking inwards, looking around
, you know everything that youneed to do to get to the end of
each day, week, month, whatever,able to say I'm a better

(18:29):
husband or our marriage is alittle stronger because of this.
So in this you know, in thesame way of like if you think
about muscles, exercising,building muscle, the way you
build muscle is by breaking itdown, isn't it by pain?
So, no pain, no gain.
And you know the heart is amuscle.

(18:49):
In a sense, the metaphoricalloving heart is a muscle that
you need to work on and it willbe painful, but it will come out
of the other side stronger niceone example just again, the
real life example of what do Imean by this.
What does this look like for us?
I've written down clear theatmosphere as soon as possible.
This leads into what I'm sayingabout why this is very

(19:11):
individual, in a sense that thisis an Aussie rather than an
everyonesy.
This is an Aussie because inour home there's two of us and
we're in our 40s.
There are no distractions,there is little noise.
So if there's an atmospherebetween the two of us, for
example, it's quite obvious andneither of us really wants to

(19:31):
exist around each other with anatmosphere.
So we're very acutely aware ofan atmosphere and we've we've
become very good over the last10 years of getting rid of that
atmosphere as soon as possible.

Claire (19:45):
Yes, and that kind of plays into when you said that I
thought you were going to godown the route of the whole kind
of don't go to bed angry typething where you clear the air.
And even that with us, I thinkis slightly different sometimes,
because I've definitely gone tobed, put my head on the pillow
and been seething with you andthen woke up the next morning
and I am still in a mood andyou're almost like oh, that's
still here.
Okay, right, we still need todeal with that.

(20:05):
So I don't think I'm alwaysgreat at the whole kind of
diffusing it straight away thing.
Sometimes I let that sit.
But you're right, it does.
Well, it affects everyone inthe house because it's just the
two of us.
So if you don't move that out ofthe way, then yeah article
aren't we?

Chris (20:22):
We're far from a finished work to do, and this is not
saying we've made it.
No this is saying we're makingit and this is how we're making
it.

Claire (20:27):
Yeah Shall, I do my us five, which was very similar to
yours.

Chris (20:31):
Us.
Is it an usy?

Claire (20:33):
I'm just doing us.
If I say usy, it sounds a bitlike hussy.
Okay, your fifth usy.

Chris (20:40):
These aren't in order of importance or priority no no, no
.

Claire (20:44):
So mine are all.
They are all alliteration.
My two words.
I have tried to do that.
The writer, but this is my lastone which I was sort of running
out of ideas a bit on thealliteration thing.
So this was my fifth oneinitially, but it is very
similar to yours, so I'll do itnow.
So my number five was love,love, which is a little bit like
if I'd have had three words itwould have been love, love, love

(21:05):
.
It's a bit like you know thatpolitical slogan education,
education, education.
When you say something threetimes, it has power.
So it's kind of like that.
But also when we watched, wasit Brutal, mighty, many, many,
many years ago.
Jim Carrey is on the phone tosomeone and he finishes it off
by going love, love, love, loveand we just really like that.

(21:26):
And then eventually we've gotto the point where we just often
finish a phone call with love,love.
So that's kind of just ourthing, but it was mainly about
love so it's very similar.

Chris (21:34):
We used to type that in text messages.
When text messages cost it'slike.
It's okay, I've got 15characters, this text message
lot left.
I'm not going to go intoanother text message.
There'll be another 10 pencecost, so I will.

Claire (21:46):
Um, yeah, I will only put seven love rather than 12 um
, yeah, so it's about lovereally, but in all kinds like so
not just one type of love, butlike the physical love.
So I didn't want to put like Ididn't want to make one of these
too sexy because, like I didn'twant it to be like one of the
five main courts.

(22:07):
But I do think that physicalintimacy is another thing that
you could let go very easily ina marriage and I think it's
worth fighting for, becausethere will be times when that is
very difficult for anyone.
We've all been through timeswhere that's harder than other
times and obviously thehoneymoon phase, when you first
get together, that wears offsadly.
So you do have to work atthings.

(22:31):
But it's not just physical love, it's also the emotional love
of being there for each other.
It's the mental love of likenever stop learning about each
other.
Like we've said, we've learnedabout how to work around each
other.
We've learned um differentpersonality types, how that
comes together.
I see that as a kind of a love,kind of of getting to know each
other better Spiritually.
You know, if you're in amarriage where you share that, I
think checking in with eachother and sharing that between

(22:52):
each other I think you can dothat in a loving way, I think,
just like love for me comesthrough all these different kind
of areas and then loving likewith your vows, so when it's
hard, when sick, when we're well, when we're sad, when we're
disappointed, loving in timeswhen that can be really hard, to
love your partner and then,like love languages, loving your
partner in the way they want tobe loved, not just in the way

(23:15):
you think they should be loved,not just buying them gifts if
they're longing for maybe somequality time or some words of
affirmation.
So it's kind of love, but inall the different ways.
And I think when you've got itin all those areas, it kind of
it seals it quite nicely,because we've we've seen couples
over the years that have hadlike amazing, like sort of

(23:37):
almost brotherly, sisterly love,let's say they get on really
well in that aspect, but there'szero kind of intimacy or
physical contact.
We've seen couples where it'sall intimacy or physical contact
.
We've seen couples where it'sall about the physical contact
and you're like, oh my word, Ican't believe what kind of their
life behind closed doors mightlook like.
But then there isn't thefriendship or there isn't the
emotional connection.
And I think if you can try andkeep all of those, keep a degree

(23:59):
of love in there.
That's really important andespecially like the I was
chatting to you yesterday aboutlike the physical side of things
.
We were looking back at somephotos of us when we were in our
20s, when we first met, and itreally encourages me that I
don't look back at those photosof you at 23 and think, oh, I
wish you looked like that orthat's the man I fell in love
with, that's the man I married.

(24:20):
I look at you now and you'rebetter looking to me now than
you ever were back then.
So it encourages me that as youget older and I posted
something about this on mysocial media, on my story on the
silent why on Instagram thisweek and it was somebody saying
I really worry that, like youknow, when I'm 40 will I fancy
people that are 40.
When I'm 50, will I fancypeople that are 50?

(24:41):
Um, and this 78 year old hadreplied and basically said kind
of yes, you love people at thatat those ages.
And when you get to be old, whenyou see a newborn baby, you
appreciate like the perfectionof this newness, of this human,
and now he sees this sort ofbeautiful completion of a human
when they're old, like the fullstory is being written and

(25:03):
there's a real beauty to that,in the same way as there is with
the baby.
So I was just thinking a lotaround that as well and just how
I've just been so encouragedthat I think by doing all this
work and loving each other,we're loving the person we see
opposite us, because they're adifferent person but they've got
a bit more of their storywrapped up in them.
And that, I think, goes throughevery different area of love,

(25:25):
where it's physical, emotional,mental, spiritual.
So it's a kind of love, love,yeah, okay.

Chris (25:31):
I like that.
I like that and I love the ideaas well of the span of time I
was thinking like, almost like adepth of something that the
more you are with someone, themore deeply you see them and the
more there is to discover inthose depths.
That can be really precious,because you don't see it often

(25:51):
it's not on the surface.
That when, when we were young,a lot of it was just, yeah, the
surface, love, getting to knowyou, the excitement of because
it's all so new.
But the the more we get to knoweach other, the deeper we go
and the deeper we see and thestories and the history and the
context and there's more.

(26:12):
That is is beautiful becauseit's, it's deeper and you don't
see, you don't not everyone getsto see it no, that's true
discovery that just I get tomake, yeah yeah, that's cool.

Claire (26:20):
so is that the same as you or us, or not?
Yeah, that's cool.
So is that the same as you'reus or not?
They're linked, aren't they?
They are linked, yeah but notthe same.
Okay, we'll make a distinctionat the end.

Chris (26:29):
Mine was love works, yours was love love.

Claire (26:33):
I mean, we're never going to get this If we get the
same two words on any of these.
I'm going to be so amazed.

Chris (26:37):
Yeah, okay, my third one.
Ready for one, ready for that.
Go for us three.

Claire (26:49):
my uzzy, my third uzzy is humble yourself or humble
myself okay, I haven't got thatone right.

Chris (26:50):
Anything to do with humility, nope, nope, great.
Okay, we're not doing very wellwith our.
We're gonna have 10 differentthings, aren't we?
we are not aligned so, but I didnote down.
This one's quite specific to me, I think.
When I forget to do this, I canbe which will come as no
surprise to you to hear mesaying out loud but I can be

(27:12):
selfish, I can be arrogant, Ican be stubborn, I can be
selfish, I can be proud, I canbe greedy, resentful and bitter.
Greedy, resentful and bitter.
I can be, I can, I can movetowards those areas if I don't
humble myself.
And you know I, I know, and, aswe've said a few minutes ago,

(27:35):
I've got a long way to go, but Iknow I've come a long way in
the last few years as well, andthis is down this is this is
down to my relationship withJesus, absolutely, and also
getting in sort of in contactmore with my.
I don't want this to sound abit like a bit cheesy, but
getting more in contact with myemotions, with my feelings, what

(27:57):
we're saying at the start,recognizing them, identifying
them, recognizing them for whatthey are, and that, for me, has
been through reading.
I've read some really helpfulbooks, things like the Enneagram
that we've spoken about before.
I think that's been quitehelpful for us in some fun areas
Again counseling, prayer, doingthe podcast, that sort of thing

(28:18):
, recognizing my limitations aswell.
I think that's something thatwas quite new to me, that
actually it's not a bad thing tohave limitations For me.
You know, at one point I wouldhave thought, absolutely no, do
everything you can as much asyou can, whenever you can, but
actually, no, I have limitationsand that's not a bad thing to
recognize.
And then forgiveness as well.

(28:38):
This has been quite a big thingbecause this is, this is about
you sometimes as well, but thereare times that I I have to
forgive you whether you deserveit or not.
But it's and this won't makesense to everybody because our
our concept of forgiveness.

(28:59):
It can vary quite a lot.
There are people that subscribesubscribe to you know, you only
forgive.
If whoever is seekingforgiveness or asking for
forgiveness, I don't subscribeto that.
I say forgive anyway for yourown good.
So, even though you may havedone absolutely nothing wrong in
our marriage, I may have takensomething in a way or something

(29:24):
over time has become somethingthat I've thought actually I
need to forgive you for this andand not hold on to it, not
recognize it as a resentment ora bitterness, but let it go so
forgiving, forgiving myself andforgiving you have been a big
part of that journey, and thatdoesn't just happen once, that
might happen.

(29:44):
Um, okay, you know every nowand again that journey, and that
doesn't just happen once, thatmight happen.
Um okay, you know.
Every now and again I'd say Istill got a long way to go.
But that, for me, is all partof humility, bringing a humble
version of myself, somebodythat's willing to learn,
recognizing they're still on aprocess of change.
I'm not a finished product.
And does that come back to myfirst one, that sort of desiring

(30:06):
improvement, wanting you tohelp me improve yeah, yeah, and
they're big areas, aren't they?

Claire (30:10):
I mean, they are so difficult and I think that can
be a little bit, um, male femalesometimes.
I think some men might findsome of those things a little
bit harder.
I don't know, might begeneralizing there, but I've.
I mean, I've found things likeyou know, apologizing is a big
thing in a relationship andwe've had conversations with
this many times with othercouples, like how do you find
apologizing?
And everyone has a differentrelationship with it and usually

(30:31):
there's one in the relationshipthat finds it easier than the
other.
I don't find apologizing easy,and apparently that was just me
from a kid, because I didn'tmean it.
So if I do something wrong, youknow, if I were to accidentally
hit you in the face, knocksomething on someone's foot, I'd

(30:52):
be very sorry.
Oh, my word, I'm so sorry I didthat.
And for little things, veryhappy to say, oh, I forgot to
get that thing, I'm so sorry,stuff like that.
But if it's a big thing andit's like I've behaved a certain
way, I find it very hard to saysorry.
If I know, I would respond likethat again and I don't want to
change how I was.
So I think that sort of thingis a massive challenge for me
and trying to work out when isit right to say sorry, even if
you don't mean it and if youwould?

(31:14):
yeah, that sort of thing.
Those areas, I think, are hugefor people to work through and
they are the kind of areas whereyou feel like you have to
massively humble yourself to dothem, but they are important to
be done.
On the other side, I would saynot apologizing very easily.
I never expect an apology fromanybody either.
It goes both ways.
I don't give them a lot, but Idon't ever expect them from
anyone.
So I think that can be a goodthing.

(31:34):
I've never been chasing you forfor a sorry for anything, but I
find that is a big area.
If I had to think about thingsthat have humbled me, it's been
having to wrestle with thosesorts of things and I'm
definitely not even close tobeing a finished product on that
but you are a lot humbler thanI am.

Chris (31:48):
Oh how lovely.
There's been a particular bookcalled well done, good and
faithful servant how topersevere with a faith that
passes the test of time.
This is written by StevePollard lives in Gloucestershire
, where we live a self-publishedbook, but I found it brilliant.
One of the things in particularto draw out, draw out of this.
He wrote something and this mayhave been him using what others

(32:10):
have written about.
I don't know, but this for me,has been revolutionary.
It's about judgment and to readfrom the book.
Another understanding which hasbrought great relief to many is
the recognition that when I forma judgment such as my wife is
lazy, that is not simplyjudgment, it's also an
instruction to my brain tofilter input.
In other words, I'm telling mybrain, number one, not to pay

(32:32):
attention to any informationthat runs counter to that
argument and number two, to payattention to information that
fits with it.
That's it, and I don't need toread more.
But that in itself, I'verealized how many judgments I
have formed and then becomeaware of and again this taps
into what we were saying earlierrecognizing and trying to then
correct, becoming aware of howmuch information I was filtering

(32:55):
in or out, based on thatjudgment.
So we had, probably a year agonow, we had a funny conversation
, didn't we about?
I think you did something inthe kitchen and I'd said well,
I'm, you know I do, but I domost of this.

Claire (33:06):
I think I'm the queen of the kitchen well about me or
about you?
I think you said that about you.

Chris (33:14):
I'm the queen of the kitchen and you were like what
I've, and it was.
They've had some funny argumentabout how many times you'd
cooked that week.

Claire (33:21):
How many?

Chris (33:21):
times I had and I came to realize that I'd I'd formed and
lived with a judgment that I domost of the work in the kitchen
, which I'm not unhappy about.
I enjoy that because I enjoycooking.
It wasn't even the case, but Iformed this judgment and
therefore I'd only filter in thetimes that you weren't active

(33:42):
and I almost would ignore,without thinking, the times you
were active, so I wasn't payingattention to when you were
cooking a meal without thinkingthe times you were active.
So I wasn't paying attention towhen you were cooking a meal,
just to the times that I wascooking, because that fed my and
backed up the judgment I'dformed yeah, I mean to be fair.

Claire (33:54):
You, it was a sort of it was a tricky one.
I can see why the judgment gotformed because you were doing
some batch cooking at theweekends, so you'd put all these
meals together in the freezerbut then I was cooking dinner
every night after you got home.
So I think it was a weekendthat you were doing something
and you're like, well, I do mostof the.
I was like, are you kidding me?
I do five nights a week, but alot of the time what I was
providing was something youmight have batch cooked at the
weekend.

(34:14):
So there wasn't.
There was like a mix of the two.
So I can see why you're verykind.

Chris (34:18):
I don't think it was.
It's quite like that, I thinkgenuinely, but not just at home.
I recognize that outside of thehome as well, whether it's at
workplaces, family stuff, churchstuff, that I've got a lot of
breaking down of these judgmentsto do and still have to do, but
that was super helpful.

Claire (34:34):
It's interesting when you spot them, though, because
I'd never heard of this beforeeither and I was like, ah, and
it started to make senseoccasionally between us we could
see, hang on a second.
This is another one of thosejudgments, because if you at the
actual proof, it's not therefor what we're believing.
So, yeah, really interestingthing.
I reckon a lot of marriagescould really do with just even
knowing about that.
It wasn't something I knewabout.

Chris (34:54):
That's my third Uzi.

Claire (34:55):
OK, so my third one, which is all confusing now
because it's us number two, forme is real respect.

Chris (35:05):
Real.

Claire (35:06):
Real respect as opposed to.
You know that fake respect.

Chris (35:09):
Yeah, okay.

Claire (35:10):
Nothing to do with me, just looking for a word that
begins with R.
Yeah, so this is about respectfor each other and not losing
that.
Have you got anything similar?
Nope.
Great, I like that.
We're all different.
I thought we'd honestly be.
They were so obvious it wouldall be the same.

(35:32):
Yeah, so I think when you startliving together, um, live with
somebody, anyone, you just getcomfy with them.
There's a level of comfort thatappears and I think respect is
really important.
So things like saying pleaseand thank yous for the small
things people are doing aroundthe house, or you know, someone
passes you something or makesyou a cup of tea, just not
taking other people for granted,um, and just because you're
married, it's very easy just toassume that you a cup of tea,
just not taking other people forgranted, um, and just because
you're married, it's very easyjust to assume that you can kind
of drop all that.
So I think not gettingcomplacent and still giving that

(35:54):
you're part of the respect,respect they deserve.
And for us sometimes it's aboutrespecting how we're different,
or maybe respecting eachother's time and space.
It might be about respecting howwe talk to each other, or
together, like when we're on ourown, but also in front of
others or behind each other'sbacks.
Or maybe you know, if you'vegot kids in the house, it would
be how you speak to each otherin front of children, because I

(36:16):
think it's very easy to get to apoint where you stop respecting
your partner and then you mightfind that you're still
respectful to other people,hopefully.
And if I saw you being reallyrespectful to some other person
but I didn't get any of thatmyself, I think I'd find that
really difficult.
I think that'd be a potentialissue that could get quite big
actually.
So it's lovely to be comfytogether and I'm not saying we

(36:38):
should be like super polite andyou know, good morning, mr Sands
.
I think it's more about like Iwould like that.

Chris (36:44):
I'm like you would, sir it's your cup of tea.

Claire (36:47):
It's just about remembering the basic stuff, and
you know, I know that likeplease and thank yous, they're
not, it's a cultural thing, it'sa British thing, isn't it?
Not every culture does that, butthere's a level of respect in
every culture, I'd imaginethat's similar.
So for us, that would be one ofthe things and if I, you know,
made you a meal or gave you acup of tea or, you know, did
something for you that youappreciated, if we got to that

(37:10):
place where we felt we never hadto say thank you or I never had
to say please when I asked youto do something, or I was
talking, you know, to you infront of other people and I was
really rude about you or Iwasn't respecting how you might
be feeling about something, oranything like that, I think that
would be a real point ofcontention, and so I'm really
appreciative that.
I feel, naturally, we've alwayshad a lot of respect for each

(37:34):
other.
I've never felt disrespected byyou, or if I have, it's been
minor.
We've communicated about itwell, and then you know, we've
sorted it out and that's usuallyjust a misunderstanding anyway.
But yeah, I think respect hasbeen really important.

Chris (37:50):
And I of misunderstanding anyway.
But yeah, I think respect hasbeen really important and I've
really appreciated that therewas that occasion when you you
didn't wake me up with a goodmorning, I felt very
disrespectful.
I got beaten wow, we're going,there are we and then you
humbled yourself, yeah, and allwas well, yes, okay, well, yeah,
there is gonna be lots ofoccasions where other people
might think it's a one-way thingin their relationship.

(38:12):
You're talking from a placewhere you know this has been one
of the one of the five thingsthat's been a pillar of our
marriage because it has alwaysbeen a two-way thing.
Yeah, that we've both giveneach other and received respect.
Yeah, so that balance has beenthere, but it must be a horrible
one if it's just a one-waything.

Claire (38:33):
Yeah, and I do think a large amount of it can be down
to your upbringing.
So if you've got somebodythat's never been taught any
respect, never had any respectand hasn't had an upbringing
that's kind of had that as partof it at all, then I think you
know that's very difficult tokind of battle or have in a
relationship because it's notsomething someone's used to.
Both of us were brought up torespect other people, to respect

(38:54):
ourselves, to respect ourelders.
There was a level of respectthere from day one and that's
one of the things I loved aboutyou when I first met, we met you
, there was that respect there.
So a lot of it possibly is preour marriage.
But what I love is that wehaven't lost that and got so
complacent with each other thatwe feel we don't have to do any
of that stuff.
I love that there's still thatlevel of respect there, as if we

(39:17):
well, it's the same level ofrespect we would give other
people and I think when you dropit in a relationship because
you think I don't need to botherwith that, you're still
probably giving it to otherpeople, and I think for me it
would be hard if I did stuff foryou and I never got a thank you
.
I never got any appreciation orI felt you were disrespectful
in the way you spoke about me.
But then when you were withother people, you were lovely.
That would be hard to watch.
I think that would be difficult.
I find that hard.

(39:37):
So I think to keep it in therelationship is important.
Even if you've got it anyway,don't just, yeah, get complacent
with the person you live with,because they still deserve the
same amount of respect.

Chris (39:49):
I feel respected.
Oh good, thank you.
I'm part of the times that yousay that I beat you Well of
course, yeah.
Okay.
What's yours?
Two more to go.
So my fourth Aussie is investgenerously.

Claire (40:02):
Nope, well, no, not no to investing, but no, I don't
have that one on my list.

Chris (40:07):
Okay, I've had desire improvement.
I've had work hard Well, loveworks.
I've had humble yourself andthen invest generously.
Why am I saying investgenerously?
Like with any investment,there's a cost.
Okay, there's a cost to pay.
There's a cost incurred in inour marriage.
You know it has cost me, butthe hope of the return is always

(40:30):
there.
So I know that there is areturn on that investment and
it's a case of being generouswith that heart, mind, body, so
with my heart.
What does that mean?
About generosity?
That's about your emotions.
Mind, that's about yourdecisions.
Body, that's about your actions.
This is again how I think aboutthis topic.

(40:50):
And then, what do you need fromme?
It has to be a selfless thing,has to be a sacrifice similar to
my last one about humility.
You might not know when thereturn will be known, but you
can rest assured it it will beand a couple of questions that
I've written down.
I think I've come across this inmarriage courses or books or

(41:12):
things.
But if I was to sort of not askyou the question but base my
actions on my believed answer tothis question, what can I do
for you right now, what can I Ido for Claire right now, or what
does Claire need from me rightnow?
I don't have to ask you thatquestion, but if I consider that
question, that will change mysort of heart, my mind, my body,

(41:36):
what I need to invest in, whatI need to lay down of my own
selfish desires in order tosupport you, meet you, to invest
in our relationship.
Yes, it's about the here andthe now and I know this.
This is quite, this is quite adangerous road because it could,
a bit like you were sayingabout the respect thing, it

(41:57):
could lead to an unhealthy placeof just giving and giving and
giving and you know if you werevery high maintenance as a wife
and giving and giving, and youknow if you were very high
maintenance as a wife, thiscould lead to just brokenness if
I just give you what you need,what you want.
But I know in our marriagethere's a really healthy balance
.
So it's something that I'mreally willing to do to invest,

(42:20):
yeah, invest generously, and Iagain, I try to write down or
think of some real-life examplesFor me.
I'd say, some of the holidayswe've had, some of the nights in
, some of what we do with ourdiary has been what we've needed
to do over the last 10 years inorder to support you and

(42:40):
therefore us and our marriage,in times of poor health levels
of what do we need right now?
So I, you know I'm I'm layingdown some of my selfish desires
to invest in our marriage bythose heart, those mind, those
body actions of just thinking tomyself what does claire need

(43:02):
for me right now?

Claire (43:03):
yeah, good.
Okay, I haven't got that one,but my next one is similar, so
might link in great tell me, somy us three, but I've got your
numbers what's your fourth one,oh?
No, it's not it is yeah, you'reright.
It is sorry I did five, didn'tI already?
I'm so confused with my list umselfless sacrifice yeah,

(43:25):
similar, similar, but from adifferent angle um, so it was
following on from my last one,which was respect.
So the whole point of this wasthis goes beyond respect.
It's just not just aboutrespecting somebody else, but
it's actually not about youanymore at all.
It's about being willing tocompromise.
So I think, and we've alwayssaid, that, you know, our

(43:46):
relationship is a top priorityand that for us comes above
family friends.
You know, if we had children,it would have been above
children.
That was our top kind ofpriority, because from that
everything else spans and goeswell.
If you put other things inplace more of a priority from
what we've seen of other people,you know it doesn't go well.
So the selfless thing is aboutwell.

(44:07):
That sounds selfish now.
Okay, so it's about sacrifice.
So yeah, that's it.
So our marriage should alwaysbe our top priority.
That's the important thingabove everything else, and it's
important to have time forothers, etc.
Etc.
But it's a big commitment, soit needs to be a priority and
along with that come sacrificesto make it work.
I think that's where I wascoming from.
So there's little sacrificesobviously every day when you

(44:28):
live with somebody else.
There always will be.
They get less and less, I think, over time because you get used
to how somebody works.
So it's not as much of asacrifice, it's more of a
compromise.
But there's also big ones inlife, like you were talking
about.
Sometimes you have to do thingscompletely differently and you
don't.
I think the selfless sacrificefor me is that you don't need to
make every single one of theseknown.
So I think in a relationshipit's really important to

(44:49):
sometimes sacrifice your ownneeds or wants, but not in a way
that you have to point it outto the other person or tell them
about it all the time, andthat's why it's a sacrifice.
But it's a sort of a selflessone in that you can't then draw
attention to what you're doing.
And I think for us there's beena lot of those along the
journey on both sides wherewe've learnt what sacrifices we

(45:13):
make and we need to talk about,because maybe it's becoming too
big a sacrifice and whatsacrifices we do all the time,
maybe to just get along well,that we don't need to talk about
.
And I think it's reallyinteresting because it plays
into our, our personality typesa little bit, because for me
there's a level of not puttingother people first too much

(45:33):
because I lose myself and that'sa bit of a danger with me.
In the same way that you weresaying you can have a tendency
towards selfish.
Um, we rarely see you go tothat extreme, but you're more
likely to go down that road andI'm more likely to go kind of
forget myself completely, whichsounds like.
I just hate saying that becauseit sounds like some kind of
wonderful martyr thing, but itreally isn't.
It's very unhealthy and it's um, it's quite arrogant in some

(45:55):
ways as well, I think.
So we've got different takes onthis when it comes to sacrifice,
and whereas I would probably belike take everything in a
really unhealthy way, if I wasin the wrong relationship, that
would really be damaging mebadly.
With the wrong person I wouldbe giving out to a level that
was very unhealthy, probably getmyself into very horrible

(46:15):
situations.
So I think there's a lot it'sall in, kind of all incorporated
but I just think getting thatbalance right of being willing
to sacrifice for your partner,but in the right way and doing
it in a selfless way, so thatyou're doing it because you love
them and not because you needto point it out that they just
did this or they just did thatand you cleared it up for them
and you didn't mention it andall this kind of stuff.

(46:36):
So yeah, it's a complicated one, but it's.

Chris (46:40):
It's very evident, isn't it?
When you're a child, whenyou're growing up.
You know, I was there as theyoung teenager, the old teenager
, when you're asked to dosomething, that means putting
down what you were doing to comeand help, let's say, and the
stereotypical teen response,certainly in Britain, is huffing
and puffing, isn't it?
Yeah, so oh, I don't want to dothat, so it's it's, it's coming

(47:04):
to do, so you're doing what'sneeded, but your attitude is
completely I'm making this asevident as possible I am not
happy about this.
Yeah yeah, so it's not doingthat.

Claire (47:14):
Yes.

Chris (47:15):
Which is hard at times.
It is hard and it needs to beunder expectations that are
realistic.

Claire (47:21):
If someone's constantly asking you to do stuff and never
letting you do anything, thereare very unhealthy levels on
both sides of this extremes.
So it is under the rightcircumstances.
With someone that loves you andthat respects you and does all
the other things, then giving upa little bit of what you want
to do for somebody else is not abad thing.

Chris (47:38):
But I'm not saying you should give up who you are, what
you do, what you want to do,not any of that, and that's why
it's a tricky one to explain,but the balance needs to be
right an example that's in mymind right now is that and this
is something we've spoken aboutand I still find tricky if I'm,
let's say, I'm in a room of thehouse on my phone, I'm probably
wasting time, but in my mind,I'm doing something important,

(48:00):
like I'm looking up this videoof a panda bear rolling around a
slide, and that's reallyimportant.
They are important.
Or I'm replying to messages,because I got a backlog of
whatsapp messages and so if I'min that room, you come into that
room and start a conversationabout something, something that
requires discussion.
So the conflict in me is that Iknow that we have spoken about

(48:27):
this in the past, so I want togive you my attention.
You want my attention.
I readily admit I can't do twothings at once, so I need to
remember and choose, when youstart talking, to just put my
phone aside and look at you andtalk to you, whereas the tension

(48:47):
in me is I was doing this first.
I'm going to finish what I'mdoing.
There's still three more videosof pandas to watch before I go.
How can I help you, my dear?

Claire (48:57):
but there's so many options here.
See a like.
Firstly, just say to me comeand look at this video of a
panda, because I love videos ofpandas, so I could join you in
it.
But also that's.
It's a really good examplebecause you know, if I'm on my
phone and you walk in, prettymuch I put that phone straight
down because I can pick it upagain, sort out what I'm doing
in a minute and you are the mostimportant thing in the room.
So there's a kind of a.

(49:18):
So the expectation on me isthat you will do that, and
that's not a fair expectation,because I'm putting my own
expectations on you, whetherit's right or wrong.
I want you to do that becausethat's what I would do and
that's part of my personality.
Trait is to expect I'll give alot to others, but then I can
expect it back again, and that'snot always fair.
But having said that, theargument in my head is why am I

(49:40):
not more important thanwhatever's on his phone?
yeah, and that's what most womenare thinking if they're nagging
men about their phones.
Why aren't I more importantthan whatever is on that phone?
Because that's the only messageit sends is right now.

Chris (49:51):
This is more important than you and that that is likely
based on many years of proofthat, again, I can't do two
things at once.
Yeah, if you're on your phone,I would still talk to you, or
you ask you the question,because I know you can do.
I've got so many examples.

Claire (50:05):
Yes, that's weird because I would assume you'd be
upset if I did that.
No, no, fascinating.

Chris (50:09):
I absolutely know that you are paying attention to me,
even though you're typing amessage, whereas I know I've
proven to you I can't do twothings at once.
Yeah.
So yeah, interesting.

Claire (50:19):
Little sacrifices.

Chris (50:31):
Yeah that's the example to mind, with your selfless
sacrificing, actually thinkingI'm not going to make a big, I'm
not going to say to you hold on.
While I put my phone down foryou, recognizing what you're
about to say is probablyimportant.
I'm going to put this, thisvery important thing I was doing
with these pandas.
That's not cool.
Put it down.

Claire (50:37):
You have my attention but even worse is to put your
phone down, listen for aboutthree seconds, then be like did
you notice?
I just put my phone down likereally not, not the thing to do.

Chris (50:46):
But then to do all that silently and humbly.
It makes you love me more.

Claire (50:52):
When you start talking to me and you notice that
without protest my phone goesdown and I engage, I think, most
people if a woman has beennagging you to do something and
then you do it, you don't needto point out that you've just
done it, because it willprobably stand out on mild like
oh my word, it's probably thesame with parenting If you've
told your kid a hundred times todo something and they will not
do it, and then they suddenly doit, even though they might not

(51:13):
say anything, something insidethem is jumping with joy because
that just happens.
You don't want to drawattention to it, so, yeah, we
always notice.

Chris (51:29):
So it final uzzy.

Claire (51:30):
As for or maybe we should rename these me's because
we haven't well, they'rethreads.
This one might be it, thoughthis one is it okay, so here we
go.

Chris (51:35):
My final uzzy is to share fully no well, you don't want
to share fully I want to shareokay so, uh, I've written this
down and I first wrote sharewholly, but it's quite an
old-fashioned word, isn't it?
To share okay.
So, uh, I've written this downand I first wrote share wholly,
but it's quite an old-fashionedword, isn't it, to share the
whole of me to share fully.
Yeah, this is about experiences.

(51:55):
It's about things I'm learning.
It's about laughter, jokes, fun.
It's about memories.
It's about pain points, tears,disappointments, plat.
Do you get the message this?
Is fully sharing, where I amtotally sharing what's going on.
You know, I can happily saythat you're my best friend,

(52:15):
you're my soulmate, you're mylover, you're my life companion.

Claire (52:20):
My word words of affirmation, isn't it?

Chris (52:23):
physically responding to the words and I want, I want to
share life with you and I wantto share all of my life with you
and there's nothing that I wantto keep you out of.
This is sort of an access allareas thing.
A caveat it a bit, because thisdoesn't mean that I think I
need to share everything withyou.
Glum face, because we'velearned over the years there are

(52:49):
some things that are bestshared with a trusted friend.
You know, man to man things,there are things that I as a guy
have had to deal with.
I've had to clear out the wayand that's best done with.
When I say a trusted friend,that's someone that you trust
and you're aware of that I trustand that you sort of bless that
friendship and you know what'sgoing on.

(53:09):
But ultimately you're thebiggest shareholder of my life
and it's important to maintainthat healthy balance of the
shared experiences that we have.
I think, finally, on that point, before I give an example and
this is something that wediscussed and it was a challenge
way back, probably eight ornine years ago recognizing that

(53:34):
you were in a point where we hadto sit down and talk about for
both of us.
It's not right and we see thisin others.
It's not right.
If work gets the best of you,you should get the best of me, I

(53:58):
should get the best of you, not, we give it to others and then
we come home and we're useless.

Claire (54:04):
Which is really difficult because, effectively,
like, the person that's at homegets the authentic you.
So you know someone coming homeand collapsing, like when I was
, you were seeing the authenticof what was happening to me and
what work was seeing was a fakeversion of me, effectively.
So it can be really difficultto learn that because at first

(54:28):
you think, well, I'm giving youthe authentic version.
But then, yes, when you realizethat you can go into work and
you can laugh and chat with yourcolleagues and everything feels
great, and then you come homeand I mean this would be huge in
childlessness.
So when you're going throughchild loss and stuff like that,
people will go into work.
They probably act fine or anygrief.
To be honest, you can act fine.
You know you're laughing,joking.
You come home and then you justsob and you're miserable in

(54:48):
some ways.
You think, well, that'sauthentic and it is.
But if that is the only part ofyou that your partner gets, if
he never gets the part that'slaughing and joking occasionally
and having fun in the officeand that, then yeah, I think
that's something you do need tobe careful of.

Chris (55:00):
I feel like I should clarify as well that when I say
the best of you, that doesn'tmean happy, upbeat, positive it.
It means that and everythingelse, it's the the, everything
that's on the inside.
It's like it's making an effort, isn't it?

Claire (55:14):
you make an effort for your work colleagues to not be a
miserable crying ball at work,and occasionally you need to
make the effort at home it mightbe on a weekend or whatever for
your partner to experienceother sides of you as well.
But yeah, not fakely, it shouldall be authentic.

Chris (55:28):
But yeah, I know what you're saying some examples for
us in our 20 years of marriedlife.
What does this look like?
It looks like cake, cake.

Claire (55:38):
We share our cake experiences although you don't
like me sharing the cake beyondthis house well, no if I say
I'll make a cake and take itsomewhere else.

Chris (55:46):
You get very sad I put, I put down my, my nail, picking
as an example my sort ofaddiction that I've had for
longer than I've known you, um,but my desire to beat that
addiction and which I haven'tconquered yet but I will.
But you've shared that with me.
It's just an example of youknow, when I say your best, it's
sharing, fully sharingeverything sharing and that's

(56:08):
been, that's been a really hardjourney.
That's not an easy thing toshare no, no, you encourage me,
you beat me when it goes badlyonly after you've beaten me our
bank accounts.
Another thing, which for me isjust an obvious thing, but I
know from people I talk to thatactually having a shared joint
bank account is not common in acouple, but we should.
You know what?
Literally, what is mine isyours, what's yours is mine.

(56:31):
It's okay for now.
Remember what I said aboutinvesting generously there will
be a return.
Another thing is ourexpectations.
We share those.
We try and help each other withour expectations.
The zoo we love a sharedexperience of a zoo.
Visit a wildlife park visit wedo that together, praying.

(56:51):
Share that our faith.
One of the things I wrote downhere just for fun is tv
catchphrases and nicknames.
That just again the fun side ofstuff that I love being in.
I'm not going to say it now,but I love being in the
supermarket and like if you'redown an aisle somewhere and
there's a few other people inthat, I love calling you by your
nickname.
It just makes me feel happyinside.

(57:12):
I like hearing it even thoseother people are like yeah, yeah
, so that, and we have so manytv comedies a lot of british, I
know some american as well tvcomedies that we've both loved.
We have a very similar sense ofhumour that probably 5% of our
vocabulary when we're aroundeach other at home is repeating.

Claire (57:33):
Quoting.

Chris (57:33):
And quoting catchphrases that we love that it just brings
us great joy and we often usethem as puns and things.
Yeah, it's great.
One comes to mind Bing Pot fromBrooklyn Nine-Nine.

Claire (57:44):
Yeah, oh, there's so many.
I was trying to think of some,but actually I just don't even
know where you'd start.

Chris (57:48):
There's so many, like we said earlier about the love,
love, love.

Claire (57:51):
We saw that on a TV thing, loved it and just stuck
it in our vocabulary.
It's still there, like 10, 15years later.

Chris (57:56):
Yeah, end of a voice note .
Blah, blah, blah, blah, yeah,but I about 5% of our entire
vocabulary is probably made upof repeating and quoting things
that we've mutually enjoyed.
The shoes up, sharing fully.
Yeah, that's my fifth Uzi.

Claire (58:14):
Yeah, Brilliant.
Okay, well, mine's not amillion miles away.
They are similar.
My us four, which is now thefive.
This is driving Chris madbecause the numbering's not
perfect.

Chris (58:25):
Oh, hang on.
What was your?
I didn't write down in myjournal what was your third.

Claire (58:30):
Selfless sacrifice.

Chris (58:33):
Let me guess this Okay, so you've got a C.
You've had constantcommunication.
You've had real respect.
You've had love, love.
You C.
You've had constantcommunication.
You've had real respect.
You've had love, love.
You've had selfless sacrifice.
It's going to be something likefeely feelings.

Claire (58:44):
It is F?
Is it?
Yes, but it's not that no, okay, flip the feelings.
That's three words I wouldn'tcheat.
Go on.
Fantastic friendship, okay, notdissimilar.
Yeah, I think when I look back,for me one of the biggest
blessings in our relationshiphas been just being best friends
and I just didn't think thatwould happen.

(59:06):
I don't know, you don't see itmuch do I think of media and you
know books and tv stuff.
There's always girlfriends.
The girls always havegirlfriends.
They have time with theirgirlfriends and I think I grew
up assuming I'd always have abest friend girlfriend.
I don't think I've ever had abest friend really like.
I've had friends along the way.
I don't know if I've had everhad one that would say to each
other we're best friends notreally been in my vocabulary,

(59:27):
but the friendship I've had withyou has outlasted so many
things.
I think a lot of the friendsI've had in my life have been
over different seasons and theycome and they go.
Some stay around long times.
You know some people you don'tspeak to for five, ten, six
years.
Whatever you pick up the phone,it's like it was yesterday.
Others you know, you kind ofsee a bit on and off and some

(59:48):
just fade away completely.
And I think, with the stages oflife that we've been through
and not having children, thefriends around us.
Their lives have changed socompletely that it's actually to
have somebody that has beenthere and understood what we're
going through, that we laughtogether, cry together, have fun
together.
That kind of exceeds all of theother friendships.

(01:00:08):
Um, that's been huge and Ithink, just in that being each
other's sort of biggestcheerleaders in a way and we're
not the sort that really bigeach other up a lot, it's not
like, oh, it's amazing.
It's amazing because we're both.
We've both got a little bit ofthat perfectionist streak in
public.
We're quite often put off bycouples that pick each other up
in public we're not going to bewishing each other happy

(01:00:29):
anniversaries back and forwardson facebook and stuff.
It's not like big publicdisplays of affection.
It's not like that and I don'tthink you'd ever be.
You know you you're a veryrealistic person, so am I?
So we're never going to be like, oh you know, you're the best
person in the world at that orthat's the best thing.
You know we're not those kindof people.
But we are cheerleaders in thefact that there's support there
if we need it, even if it's justmaybe too realistic at times.

(01:00:52):
I think I've just appreciatedthat sort of support and I think
in some ways it's made me thinkto myself if I had really good
friends, what does that meanabout my relationship?
Because if I was willing to gofurther with my friends and I
gave more to them than I did toyou, that would be a very
different relationship.
So I think some people do needthat friendship support if their

(01:01:14):
relationship isn't strongenough or doesn't have that
friendship level.
So I totally understand that,because I think everyone needs
friendship.
But for me and for you it'sbeen in our relationship and
I've been very grateful of that,because there haven't been many
other opportunities to make newfriends.
So a lot of my friends that Iknow they've got friends from
different stages of life, but alot of them at the moment have

(01:01:36):
got friends from having children, so they know people at the
school gate.
They've got mums they'rechatting to when the kids are
getting together.
There's a lot of new friends ornew acquaintances they might
say I don't know that have comealong in a new stage of life.
We've never had that.
So we've tried to cling tofriends from like a long time
ago or we're trying to make newfriends, but people are busy at
this.
It's been really difficult, Ithink the friend thing but
having you has made it lesstough and I think friendship is

(01:02:00):
something that you choose tohave as well.
You don't no one forces friendson you.
You know I'm, I am married toyou by law.
We have to be together to somedegree but we don't have to be
friends.
I think it's a sort of a one ofthe aspects that you can really
choose to have and allow tohave, and I love that we have
that and that to me, has beenmore important, probably through

(01:02:22):
all the stages we've beenthrough, than some of the other
stages, even when they've beenamazing in other areas of our
relationship.
I feel like it's the friendshipbit that's been like a base
that I keep coming back to,that's helped me through, you
know, if we're not feeling greator if we're going through a
stage we're not reallyconnecting and all those those
kind of things.
I think it's a really goodplace to start and a good place
to end really with a friendship.

Chris (01:02:43):
Not just a friendship, a fantastic.

Claire (01:02:46):
A fantastic friendship.

Chris (01:02:48):
Yeah, I concur with that absolutely.
I feel that when you weretalking a minute ago, I was
thinking of those times and thisisn't just in front, like you
were saying about do you have abetter relationship with your
boy or girlfriends becauseyou're not getting it at home?
And that that's the danger iswithin.
If you're having to getsomething elsewhere because

(01:03:10):
you're not getting it at home,that's a problem, isn't it?
Whatever you're having to seekit could be food stuff, through
to friendships, validation,support, encouragement, love,
sex the danger is when you startgoing to look for elsewhere
because you're not getting it.

Claire (01:03:26):
I do think there's some things that you might need to go
and get from elsewhere.
You know, for example, if youneed to talk through stuff you
might need to go to therapy, ifyou need to chat to girlfriends
or boyfriends about differentthings that you can't or you
shouldn't be chatting to yourpartner about there, you know
there are times for that and Ithink if you're in a very lonely
marriage, then having friendsthat are supportive and that
will help you maybe improve yourrelationship and, you know, can

(01:03:47):
do it in a, like, a good way,not dragging you away from your
partner and just sitting thereand hating on them the whole
time.
I think there's a place for that.
So I think that can be reallyimportant to replace some of the
stuff you might not have.
But I don't think it's a greatlong-term strategy and I think
it should only be as a way ofhelping you to try and improve
your relationship, not insteadof but um, yeah, I think it's a

(01:04:09):
massive bonus if you if you dohave the friendship there as
well well, I don't feel likeanything of your five has
surprised me, which is good, ohexcellent, oh excellent, same
with you.

Chris (01:04:18):
Yeah, there are threads of similarity through a number
of them.
We've voiced them in adifferent way.
I expect you'll list them inthe show notes, will you?

Claire (01:04:26):
Oh, I don't know, I might give it away.

Chris (01:04:28):
That's probably not a bad .
They're not secrets.

Claire (01:04:30):
Yeah, but they might be on the journey with us Like are
they going to line up?
Are they not going to line up?
If I that we don't line up onanything there?

Chris (01:04:36):
really isn't that dramatic a climax.

Claire (01:04:37):
Oh, I like to think there is.

Chris (01:04:40):
Well, there wasn't.
We've just had the chat.

Claire (01:04:43):
Yes, I may well do Right .
Yeah, how do you feel?
Do you feel like you've beenmarried for 20 years?
Does that feel like somethingthat's?

Chris (01:04:52):
I don't feel like I have when I'm reminded and I see
things like you made a littlevideo that you're going to put
on social media on ouranniversary.
So when I saw that video thatspeaks deeply into, I think,
visually recognising my wordlook how far we've come, look
how much we've grown, look howwe've changed In a beautiful way

(01:05:17):
, what I was coming back, youknow what I was saying about.
The longer you're with someone,the deeper you get to know them
and the more there is toexplore the depths of and
there's beauty to be found there.
You see that through that video, I think, from the surface, the
fun, the excitement of theearly days through to 20 years
on.
So, yeah, I don't feel like Idon't feel like I've been

(01:05:40):
married 20 years.
Do you feel like you've beenmarried 20 years?

Claire (01:05:45):
No, not really it doesn't feel.
But then when I start to lookback and think of all the
different stages, they do feellike a long time ago.
When I think of us, you know,first getting together or then
finding out about infertility.
And you know, we were chattingwith people recently and we've
done this a few times and justthought to ourselves, crumbs, if
we'd had children like a coupleof years after we got married,

(01:06:05):
there'd be 18 this year.
That's.
That gives me some context, Ithink, for how, how far along we
are.
And I think sometimes you know,when we've got friends and
they've all got young children,I think they feel like I feel
like I'm sort of in their boat,but we just don't have children.
But actually I'm not in theirboat.
I wouldn't have a five or sixyear old, I'd have a teenager

(01:06:27):
going off to uni.
And that makes me stop andthink and just think where I am
on the journey.
It's hard to judge thatsometimes, but yeah, no, it
doesn't.
I just I can't believe that Ican remember anything 20 years
ago.
That just sounds like such along time.
I can't believe I'm old enoughto remember stuff like that.
But then, looking through thephotos, I can definitely see how

(01:06:48):
we've aged and things havehappened.
And yeah, yeah, I don't knowit's a weird one, isn't it Time?
I always find time's a bit of afunny thing.

Chris (01:06:58):
We found it weird one, isn't it time?
I always find time's a bit of afunny thing.
we found it weird, we yeah, itwas we were speaking to friends
about it on well two nights agowho have children, about the
passage of time, and to me itfeels like not having some of
the society or societal normsfor the passage of time,
children being the biggest onethat you start to measure your

(01:07:20):
life by the stages of, I guess,pregnancy, childbirth, right
through to driving tests,becoming 18, all that sort of
stuff you can measure and lookback and just see through them
how life has progressed.
But for me it does feel morelike two or three, four years

(01:07:41):
into our marriage things sort ofpaused like we were waiting for
the next well, what happensnext?
And we haven't unpaused it yet.
We're still wondering whathappens next.

Claire (01:07:50):
Yeah, that's what we were trying to.
I try to explain to peoplesometimes it's people think, I
think, when they've got children, that not having children just
looks like their life beforechildren and it was like, oh,
you know, freedom, money, allthis, all the, all the good
stuff they don't have anymore.
They kind of see, and it'strying to explain that actually
it's not.
You don't get stuck in that bit.
You get stuck in the bit whereyou decided to have children or

(01:08:11):
you wanted something more out oflife and so you thought let's
do this, we're ready forsomething else, we're ready for
a new adventure, ready for youknow.
Admittedly, some people getchildren without thinking about
it or planning it, but mostpeople get to a stage where they
think like, okay, now we'reready.
Now that's where you get paused, I'm ready for something new.
But it just never comes Withoutthinking about it.
Subconsciously you've got inyour head things that you expect

(01:08:32):
to be doing at some point Foryour child to start driving, for
your child to go to university,maybe or get a job, for your
child to meet somebody, for themto get married, for them to
have their own children, for youto become a grandparent.
That is subconsciously thereand we know that's there,
because if you speak to peoplewho lose a child, all of that
suddenly goes away and that'sone of the losses the future
that you thought you had hassuddenly been wiped completely

(01:08:53):
blank.
So that is there withoutthinking about it.
And so to think you know, whenyou don't have children, none of
that is there.
It's endless between now anddeath.
You don't know what's going tohappen unless you actually make
a massive decision or a choice.
Let's move house to anothercountry, let's do this or that.
There's nothing.
You might see a bit of jobprogression, but between you

(01:09:14):
maybe you'll get more pets ordifferent pets, or maybe nieces
and nephews will have children,but there's no path there.
And I think that's what'stricky and I think it's really
hard to explain to people whohave got a rough idea in the
back of their head, even thoughthey know that might not all
happen.
You know, I don't thinkeveryone thinks that's going to
happen for them, because theyknow what life is like, but it

(01:09:36):
is difficult having thatnothingness I is like, but it's
difficult having thatnothingness.
I remember when I worked for anartist.
I was sort of trying todescribe why, in some ways, we
had didn't have children, and itseemed like we could do
anything we wanted and thatshould be exciting.
Why wasn't it exciting?
And he said to me it's likewhen I put people in the art
classes who haven't done art andstuff before I sit them down in
front of a blank canvas and hesays most of you, most people

(01:09:57):
will tell me that's terrifying.
Like at the beginning, that'sthe hardest thing, until they
start because, yes, there'sendless possibilities, but you
also have no clue what to do orwhere to start.
And that really helped me,because I was like, yes, a blank
canvas, it's not alwaysexciting.
Sometimes it's terrifyingbecause there's just too much,
too many options.
You just don't know where to gowith it or what to do.

(01:10:17):
So I think that's's what it'slike.
So that's kind of you know.
Even now we're like, oh, we'vereached 20 years of marriage,
great.
And I'll say to you but whatnow?
What's the next thing?
We look towards 25 years, okay,great, but what's after that?
So I'm hoping at some pointwe'll start to see something
coming for us, whether that'sjob or whatever.

(01:10:37):
But yeah, it's, it's a trickyone looking forward another 20
years.

Chris (01:10:45):
How similar or different do you think our uzzie's will be
if we have the blessing ofanother 20 years of life
together?

Claire (01:10:57):
crumbs yeah I, I think I'd be surprised if mine changed
that.
The main topics.
I think underneath each one itwould have shifted and moved and
mean something a bit differentto me.
But I think the main thingswill be pretty similar or I'll
be borrowing them off your listokay, constant communication,
real respect, selfless sacrifice, fantastic friendship and love,

(01:11:19):
love love, love.
That's why I had to come at theend.
What were yours?

Chris (01:11:23):
desire improvement.
Love works, humble yourself,invest generously and share
fully nice.

Claire (01:11:32):
Do you think yours will have changed?

Chris (01:11:33):
I hope not.
I think there are areas thereare 10 areas that I want to keep
working at and never stoppingthat work.
I don't want to coast at anystage.
I want to keep working andenjoying the fruit of that
labour because it's brilliant.

Claire (01:11:51):
Amen, mr Sands.

Chris (01:11:54):
The respect.

Claire (01:11:56):
Thank you, thank you, right, yeah, so anyway, I think
that's all we've got to say,really, but I do know, I am
aware that what we're talkingabout here can be quite hard for
some people If you don't have amarriage.
If you're in a marriage, that'sreally hard, or maybe you'd
long to have some of thesethings we're talking about, but
you don't have them.
So I just want to remind youthat we're big believers in hope

(01:12:19):
and that people can change.
And I do think this is a bitlike grief.
It's not easy, it's not fun.
I mean, we've talked aboutthese lovely things.
What we haven't talked about isthe five hardest things of
being in our marriage.
What's been the toughest stuff?
There's a lot of other stuff onthe other side, just like grief
.
But we do believe if you workat these things, the rewards can
be amazing.
So I want to encourage peoplenot to give up in their

(01:12:40):
relationships, not to give uptrying to be better.
People be in betterrelationships and don't lose
hope, because changes can canhappen, and sometimes just
making a few changes in yourselfcan have a massive impact on
your relationship, and I'veheard people talk about that as
well.
So, yeah, we just want toacknowledge that for anyone who
might have found that a bitdifficult to listen to or if
you've lost a partner and youwould love to have got to 20

(01:13:02):
years of marriage and you didn'tget there.
We are totally aware of thosekinds of losses as well and we
do feel for you in that and weare very um grateful and blessed
for the time that we've hadtogether because, doing the
podcast, we've especially beenmade aware that this is not
something that everyone gets todo.
So, uh, yeah, we don't takethat for granted.
But, yeah, thank you forlistening.
Um, everything you might needis on the website if you want to

(01:13:25):
find out more about us.
If you're new to us and this isyour first episode wow, what a
baptism of fire there's moreabout us in our fertility
journey, where we chat like thisabout being childless.
Back in loss number three, andthere's our story on the website
if you want to read throughthat, plus all the losses that
we're working through.
Next episode we're going to bebringing you another loss on our
list.
I think we've hit number 63,but I might regret saying that

(01:13:46):
out loud because it might be adifferent number.
And, yeah, if you want tocelebrate with us with our
anniversary, then I'm going todo a shameless plug for my
buymeacoffeecom slash the silenty account, because if you want
to give back to this podcast orif it's helped you in any way at
all, then we would love you tobuy me a fancy tea on.
Buy me a coffee, because thispodcast is just a labor of love.

(01:14:06):
We don't outsource any of it.
We don't pay for anyone else todo it.
We do it all ourselves.
We're desperately trying tokeep it ad free so you don't
have to listen to adverts, andso, because of that, anyone who
supports us is just so key inkeeping this going.
So a huge thank you to thosewho support us monthly, because
they're the reason you'relistening to this now.
We are very grateful for them.
But if you want to just give usa one-off donation, if you want

(01:14:29):
to buy me a fancy tea orsupport monthly, you can do that
at www.
buymeacoffee.
com/thesilentwhy and all theselinks are in the show notes
we're not finishing with a quoteI forgot

Chris (01:14:41):
I'm sure we can quickly find something on the internet
google marriage quotes, that'ssignificant and meaningful to us
and holds great value.
Yeah, so usually I go to my timkeller, who's written a lovely
book called the meaning ofmarriage.

Claire (01:14:55):
Here we go okay, I just going to read this in one take
"when, over the years, someonehas seen you at your worst and
knows you with all yourstrengths and flaws, yet commits
him or herself to you wholly,it is a consummate experience.
To be loved but not known iscomforting but superficial.

(01:15:15):
To be known and not loved isour greatest fear.
But to be fully known and notloved is our greatest fear.
But to be fully known and trulyloved is well, a lot like being
loved by God.
It is what we need more thananything.
It liberates us from pretense,humbles us out of our
self-righteousness and fortifiesus for any difficulty life can
throw at us.

(01:15:36):
I thought we should finish withsomething, but I don't know what
.

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