Let's Chat... Where does the love go when someone dies (with David Kelly)

Episode Transcript
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Claire (00:00):
Hello there and thanks for joining me for another
episode of Let's Chat on TheSilent Why.
I'm Claire Sandys and throughthis podcast, we're exploring
how and where we can find hopethrough grief and loss.
In these let's Chat episodes, Ichat to a guest who either
brings personal experience orprofessional expertise in a
specific area of loss.
Together.
We're building what I like tocall a metaphorical tool shed, a

(00:23):
collection of insights, ideasand support tools to help us
prepare for or navigate theinevitable losses that life
brings.
In this episode, I'm chattingwith David Kelly, who I met
through Instagram.
David reached out to me after aconversation I had with Chris
during our chatty Christmascatch-up episode.
We raised a specific questionand David got in touch to help
us understand how he wouldanswer it Always a dangerous

(00:45):
thing to do and because what hesaid was so interesting, I asked
him to come and record a chatwith me about it on the podcast.
The conversation Chris and Iwere having was around love.
Where does love go when someonedies?
Here's a clip of what we weresaying in that previous episode.

Chris (01:00):
Yeah, so even you know, we just started watching on
Netflix.
Man on the Inside.

Claire (01:04):
Ted.
Danson, who we love because ofthe good plays.

Chris (01:07):
And there was a line in that when we were watching that
last night I think it wasepisode two, so he's a widower
and he just had this littlelovely line that said, a year
after my wife's death or a yearafter her death, I'm still very
much in love with my wife andeven just made I was just like I
couldn't speak.

Claire (01:25):
After that I welled up, I was like, oh, that's beautiful
yeah, and that would never havebothered me no it prompted a
little bit of a conversationbecause I said to you I said,
interesting, you think about thegrief and getting through that
and what that feels like and howthat might ease over time.
But you don't necessarily.
I mean, you do think about thelove because you hear the whole
kind of you know, grief is lovewith no place to go.
I get that, but then I hadn'treally heard it worded in the

(01:48):
fact that one, two, three, fouryears later I'm still in love
with that person.
What is that like, being inlove with someone that's no
longer around?
So you haven't just got thelove for them and you don't know
where to put it because it'sjust you on your own.
But to hear it phrased in thatway just took on a new meaning
I'm still in love with them.
It's quite obvious really.
In some way it's not thatprofound, but yeah, I just

(02:10):
thought.
I never thought about it inthat, that way in particular.
So what do you do with the lovewhen someone dies?
Does it stay the same forever,even if it's not reciprocated?
Is it possible to feel that wayabout a person that's dead?
Do you recognize a point whenit dies?
If it dies not reciprocated, isit possible to feel that way
about a person that's dead?
Do you recognise a point whenit dies?
If it dies, what does that feellike?
So many questions, so David andI attempted to explore some of

(02:31):
them in this episode.
David lives in Hertfordshire,the county where I went to uni,
although he's originally fromIreland, hence the accent.
I like to help teach and maybeconfuse our international
listeners about the many accentswe have over here.
My last let's Chat was a Germanlady who lives in Norfolk and
now we have an Irish man wholives in Hertfordshire.
David knows grief firsthand.

(02:51):
After losing his wife, beverlyto cancer, he walked his own
path through sorrow.
But David isn't just speakingfrom personal experience.
He's also deeply familiar withgrief models that help make
sense of the journey.
As someone who supports othersthrough loss, he brings both
heart and insight into how theseframeworks can guide us in
understanding and navigating ourown grief.
I'm really excited for you tohear this conversation because

(03:12):
it touches on something I thinkmost of us don't really think
about, maybe until we're livingit, and that's exactly why it's
so important.
It gives us a chance to learn,reflect and prepare before grief
shows up in our lives.
And of course.
I asked David what tool hewants to add to my tool shed and
his answer is another new itemthat I haven't had before.
So grab a cuppa, or maybe aGuinness or an Irish coffee, as

(03:33):
we're chatting to an Irishman,and relax with me and David as
we chat.
Where does the love go whensomeone dies?

David (03:43):
My name is David Kelly.
I live in Watford, but myaccent may give me away as
someone being originally fromBelfast.
I work as the CommunityEngagement Coordinator at Renny
Grove Peace Hospice Care.
We're based in theBuckinghamshire and
Hertfordshire area in England,Although I've only been employed
in the charity sector for thepast few years been employed in

(04:07):
the charity sector for the pastfew years I'm a big advocate for
community volunteering and theethos of sort of giving back to
the community.
So I've been involved involuntary charity work for about
the past 17 years or so, withmuch of that work being actually
related to grief and supportingbrave individuals.
And today I will be talkingabout love and grief as a
widower.

Claire (04:27):
So thank you for joining me today.
We got to know each otherthrough Instagram and this
episode came about through aconversation after Chris and I
were chatting about something onthe podcast to do with love.
We were asking the questionwhere does the love go when
someone dies?
What does that look like?
How long does it hang aroundfor?
Does it fade eventually?
What happens to it?
And you, having lost your wife,got in touch and explained a

(04:47):
little bit about how you feltabout it, and it was so
interesting.
I thought I want to talk tothis guy about this, so that's
why you're here.
So thank you for accepting myoffer.
Why don't you just tell us alittle bit about your personal
experience, because obviouslyyou've done a lot of stuff
around grief in your kind ofwork area and volunteering.
Tell us a little bit about yourwife, beverly, and when she
died and what.

David (05:05):
what happened there so Beverly or Bev, I suppose I
probably was the end of thecaller.
We met in 2002 and it wasprobably quite radical at that
stage, although it's morecommonplace now.
But actually we met throughinternet dating.
I had some not so goodexperiences in in those days of
trying internet and mysubscription was about to expire

(05:27):
.
I can't even remember the nameof the website.
I think it's long since gone,and I think I had about 10 days
left and I thought I'll justgive up this whole thing of
internet dating.
It's not working.
I mean, I was, let me see, I was31 at the time and I just got
this message from Bev and wejust, you know, chatted a little
bit and then we sort of weagreed to meet up.

(05:49):
That was a bit unexpected.
I thought I was going to haveto go through the you know, give
up on that and go through awhole sort of different ring
roll of trying to sort of meetsomeone.
But, yeah, 2002, we met.
She had a stepdaughter, gemma.
Probably within about sort ofsix months or so, I'd sort of
moved in and, um, we got married.

(06:09):
Oh, 2005, I think.
Actually it's a similar sort oftimeline year.
Wise thing is yourself and Chrisit is you're right yeah, and we
had a son together, 2006 and Iguess life was, was fine.
You know, we just sort of youknow trying to support sort of
you know Gemma I mean Gemma, shewas uh when I met her, she was

(06:30):
uh, almost 10, so you know,trying to sort of support her
through being a teenager andthen, at the other end, also
sort of dealing with a youngbaby and sort of you know
toddler and growing up into well, he's now, he's now 19, so it
seems like an awful long timeago, but everything seemed to be
sort of fine, we're getting onwith work, um and life, and that

(06:50):
it was in 2015 that she sort ofwent to the doctors.
Around about sort of september,other about in 2015 she went to
the doctors.
She was passing some blood, youknow in her stools and went
back and forth a few times and,uh, eventually sort of wasn't
actually until quite a fewmonths later, so I think it was

(07:12):
march um the following year, somarch 2016, she got a diagnosis
of colorectal cancer.
Originally she was on a curativepathway.
The doctor said, you know, shewas healthy, but that was what
she was at that time.
So she was 47 at the time thatshe was diagnosed, doctor sort
of said look, you're young, fit,healthy, you know the drugs

(07:35):
will put you on and the chemowill give you the radiotherapy
and that it should all sort ofwork out fine, there shouldn't
be any issues.
So I guess we went down thatpathway, done that, for that was
probably really about sixmonths or so.
She was getting that done and Iguess as we approached into the
end of her treatment intoChristmas period of 2015 we were

(07:59):
, we were hopeful going intointo the new year, she had had a
scan sort of start of 2016,which was her three-month scan
after treatment.
And that's when we got the newsthat actually don't know quite
sure whether there was still alittle sort of lump remaining
there or whether it was a newone that had emerged.
But essentially the difficultiesthen we had with any sort of

(08:21):
further treatment was the factthat the drugs she had been on,
that she was on chemo, hadcaused peripheral neuropathy
during her treatment.
It's in the small print, youknow when they say but they're
giving you chemo drugs, it's oneof those things they sort of
tend to brush over, butperipheral neuropathy, basically
chemo drugs being toxins, as itwere, they had caused damage to

(08:42):
her nerves, so in her hands shelost sort of a lot of sensation
in her hands and theirfingertips and also then from
sort of her, her sort of kneesdown with her feet, and that
she'd lost sort of a lot of thesensation.
So they said, look, we can'tput you onto that drug anymore
and because basically it's justbe a cumulative damage effect,

(09:02):
it will just sort of, you know,continue to sort of cause more,
further damage and you can endup going blind, deaf and all
these and all sensations.
So they had to see if there wassomething else, that they come
up with an alternative drug thatunfortunately takes a while, um
.
So whilst we were waiting forthat, her pain was sort of going
up and I guess this was ourfirst introduction to hospice.
I remember the Macmillan nursesort of said oh, we need to get

(09:26):
you into the hospice.
So this was about February in2016.
And of course that word hospiceat that time for both of us was
we associated it with end oflife.
That was our thing.
I thought we're not there yet.
You know that's sure is nothappening.
But the Macmillan nurse sort ofexplained that actually in

(09:46):
hospice care they do a lot ofpain management and so therefore
, bringing her into the hospicefor a couple of weeks or so,
just making her an inpatientunit, would allow them to sort
of reset the sort of painmedication she was on and
hopefully get her in a betterposition to then release her and
she'd go back and be at homeagain.
So that was our you know, Iguess our as a family our first

(10:09):
introduction to hospice care.
And actually at the, thehospice that I'm working um at
now, it's actually this the samehospice.
So we um had that introductionthere.
She got the pain under controland sort of came out and they
started her on some other chemodrugs and essentially, to sort
of cut a long story short, as itwere, they weren't doing

(10:31):
anything.
They didn't sort of do anythingso that sort of tumor continued
to grow.
We then, you know, about April,towards the end of end of April.
So a few months later she hadto be admitted back into hospice
for end-of-life care and we hadabout the last sort of two
weeks or thereabouts of her life.
I actually stayed in thehospice.

(10:51):
We, we had the family room thatthey had available to us, so I
stayed there with her, so we hadthose last sort of couple of
weeks with her at hospice.
So, and that was, you know, aswith any sort of family going
through, that stuff was achallenging time to get around.
You know what, what washappening.
It's both happening rapidly totry and have those conversations

(11:12):
.
I mean at that stage mystepdaughter Gemma was she was a
young adult, so you know thatwas sort of different
conversations with her, butobviously I mean Luke was 10 at
the time.
So having those conversationswith him, even with all the you
could say, sort of the awarenessand sort of skills and sort of
knowledge that I had around,sort of, you know, bereavement

(11:34):
and grief and stuff like thatand supporting people.
It was still very hard to havethose conversations.

Claire (11:57):
Gosh, I mean listening in.
When you just hear the dateslike that it sounds so quick,
you know, for someone to bediagnosed and less than a year
later to have died fromsomething that you were actually
hopeful about in the beginningas well, which just seems so
cruel, because a lot of peoplewith cancer.
Sometimes you get to the pointof thinking you might die, but
then this and then for it tokind of twist like that.
Does it feel quick whensomething like that is happening
, or does it feel very slowbecause of the sort of the pain
and what the person that youlove is going through?

David (12:11):
I mean, we were going through the treatment and it was
on that sort of curativepathway.
It seemed okay, it seemed sortof normal speed, as it were.
I I guess, once things startedsort of to take those steps
towards decline where the chemodrugs, sort of second time
around, weren't, weren't doinganything, and then I suppose she
was temporarily in the hospitaland trying to sort of get her

(12:33):
out of the hospital into intohospice and stuff like that.
That's where everything sort ofseemed to be a lot more rapid.
Strangely, when when you getinto into the hospice, it's a
completely different atmosphereto to a hospital.
So, as much as there's an awfullot of sad things happening
there, it's not a sad place assuch and it seemed to sort of

(12:55):
for me actually sort of thingssort of slowed somewhat there,
um, and just having that sort ofmore serene, that sort of more
tranquil and more sort ofpeaceful place and being
supported and held just seemedto sort of slow things down that
little bit.
However, it seems strange, youknow, looking looking back,
actually the sort of it was onlya matter of a couple of weeks
in there, but actually in someways it seemed longer just

(13:16):
because things were were as asmuch as things were sort of
going down, the atmospherearound you was was was much
calmer and you felt supported.
And I think I guess also, Isuppose perhaps having that
distance from it now when you,when you're in that, that moment
, you know, is that heightenedstress, that sort of constant

(13:36):
sort of anxiety about what'shappening and sort of needs it,
and I guess trying to sort ofget that sense of control that
you have in an uncontrollablesituation, of something that you
can hold on to and try andestablish some kind of routine.
So I think, probably coming outfrom that and being some time
away from it now, it just sortof.
Actually, when I look back,yeah, it just seemed it as as

(13:58):
much as it was only a couple ofweeks.
It in some way seems a lotlonger than some of the other
stuff that sort of happenedbefore.

Claire (14:05):
It's really interesting how time is affected like that
by what you're going through.
It fascinates me because Ihaven't really sort of been
through it in that way.
So it is interesting to see ifit feels quick or if it slows
down.
So we're talking about the lovewe have for somebody.
So I mean, there's so manyquestions here.
But to start it off, so you'vegot this partner in front of you
, that's healthy and you lovethem and it goes both ways and

(14:27):
you know everything is seeminglygood in that respect, let's say
.
So what happens when thatperson is taken away?
We've heard grief talked about,as you know, love with no place
to go, like we've got that lovefor that person but they're not
here to specifically give it to.
I don't know if you need thatperson to give it to.

David (14:51):
Is that a large part of it?
What sort of just try, and Idon't know if you can explain it
even, yeah, what is that like?
What happens with that love?
So the, the, and I guess maybeas well, I bring a little bit of
theory into it.
I guess, with the, you know thework that I've done for for many
years, uh, particularly with,with cruise bereavement care.
There's various differentmodels out there and for me what
I like about theory is that itgives you something that you can
attach um your behaviors ontoor or can maybe help you to
frame why I feel this way, thatway I know, for some people the

(15:14):
whole idea of grief models orgrief theories you know they
don't like because it makes itsort of sound very sort of
prescriptive or whatever.
But the, the way I I've I'vesort of worked is that I can use
it as like a framework to, sothat I can either understand
myself and my grief as to why Imay be feeling that, or if I'm
supporting someone you know.
Telling them some of that mayhelp them to understand

(15:34):
themselves better.
So a big one for for me is thecontinuing bonds theory.
To sort of summarize thatthere's basically sort of four
principles.
So it acknowledges that grief isongoing.
So grief isn't sort of going tocome to an end.
It's something you're alwaysgoing to to be carrying for the
rest of of your life and in thatway then, you're staying

(15:58):
connected to your loved one.
So, yes, the physicalrelationship is no longer there,
the presence is no longer there.
However, you're very muchstaying connected to them
because you have all thosememories, you have the stimulus
and that are sort of around you,whether it's photographs,

(16:18):
recordings or videos.
And it also normalizes sort ofvarious different grief related
behaviors that we do as well.
So these are sort of therituals that we have, you know.
So it actually brings comfortto people to still, maybe wear
the ring that their loved onewore, or to have a favorite item
of clothing that they wore, ormaybe so they might sort of have

(16:40):
a tattoo that represents theirloved one, of have a tattoo that
represents their loved one.
So, yes, physically they're nolonger present, but actually in
other ways you still feelconnected to them.
And it just acknowledges thatthose actual grief behaviors
that people have, thatindividuals may have, and some
of those may be sort of cultural, some of those may be societal

(17:00):
sort of behaviors, you know, butthese rituals and behaviors
that we have actually helppeople to cope with their grief.
The old-fashioned way was sortof right.
Your best way to cope withgrief is to disconnect.
Stop have that relationship andyou stop thinking about them
and basically you know it willgo away.
This is actually a much morecompassionate view that these
grief behaviors that people havehelps them actually to cope

(17:24):
with grief.
Now sometimes I suppose youcould argue that you've got to
be careful and that you know youdon't sort of take it to the
nth degree where possibly, say,for example, you, you may have
people who it's almost like sortof shrines that they build and
and this, this room can't betouched or changed, or you know
from when it was, when thatperson was living in that or
sleeping in that bedroom, typeof thing that can maybe sort of

(17:46):
cause some problems there.
But actually those normallittle behaviors cooking a
favorite meal, that sort offavorite sort of perfume or
aftershave on you, or you know,some people do have those memory
bears, you know those, thosesort of items of sort of
clothing converted into a littlesort of bear or a pillow,
whatever for for children or forthem, whatever, you know, it's
those little sort of behaviorsthat we have just help people to

(18:08):
cope with and manage theirgrief and in that way then keep
the connection and I guess I seethe connection.
You know part of that is thelove to that person.
So the relationship has changed, transforms, as it were, but it
still exists.
The other bit of that I I likewas there's three, so you have
the continuing bonds.
There's the dual process model.

(18:29):
The dual process I like becauseit's it's again, it's not not a
theory, again it's very muchdone on actual research, um,
with how people behaved, andit's that sort of oscillation
that you have between griefrelated activities and
restorative activities andessentially, sort of you allow
yourself time to be in the grief, for it to be felt, for those

(18:51):
feelings, those emotions,whatever you need to do in your
grief stuff, to actually spendtime thinking, I guess, as it
were, about the past and youthen oscillate from that to the
future stuff, as it were.
The restorative stuff, which isabout moving forward with your
grief and that could be sort ofgetting on with, sort of doing

(19:12):
those new sort of jobs andresponsibilities that you have
to do.
Now that's even sort of justsort of going out and
socializing with friends.
You oscillate between both ofthose types of activities and
it's healthy to oscillate andyou need to oscillate between

(19:35):
both of those.
You allow yourself to dip intoyour grief and then to move out
of your grief and into, okay,the everyday stuff, the new
normal stuff that you have to do.
It sort of shows the realnormal, that stuff that you have
to do.
It sort of shows the realbehaviors that people have in
grief.
The other one I like is the workby lois thomkins.
She was a bereavement counselorin new zealand with the work

(19:56):
that she'd done with her clients.
She proposed the grow aroundgrief model and the idea of this
is that again, traditionallywhen people sort of think about
grief they tend to think thatgrief starts are very large, um
fills up everything when you'revery much in the raw stage, when
the grief you know thebreathing has happened and that

(20:16):
over a period of time it willshrink and shrink, shrink until
it's gone and you're over it, asit were, and the the tonkins
model.
She didn't agree with that.
What she was saying was thatthe sort of metaphor that is
used here is to imagine it in ajar.
So the traditional view, thejar represents someone's life
and in that jar this grief stone, as it were, fills up the whole

(20:40):
of that jar, and that over aperiod of time.
The traditional view is thatthat sort of stone shrinks until
it's gone.
On the tonkins model, the wayto look at it is, if the jar
actually has that sort of griefstone in it, that that fills up
the jar again.
But what happens is, over aperiod of time, it's not that
actually the grief stone, as itwere, is shrinking, it's that
actually the individual's lifewhich is represented by the jar.

(21:04):
The jar actually gets biggerand in that way then they're
growing around their grief.
So the grief is still there,but effectively there's like a
buffer between the intensity orthe rawness of that grief and
the other aspects of someone'slife.
So that's why then thatactually five, 10, whatever
number of years years later,someone can still experience a

(21:26):
moment of grief because thegrief is still there, but
actually they have the capacitynow to be more comfortable with
it.
Buffer between the the griefand the edge of the of the jar,
as it were, is much, much biggerthan what it has been compared
to an early grief.
And for some people actually, itcan seem quite frightening when
you sort of maybe say to themyour grief's always going to be

(21:46):
with you.
You know it's like, oh, youknow it can seem quite
frightening that I'm going tohave this grief for the rest of
my life.
But it's actually, yes, youwill have the rest of your life,
but the intensity of what youfeel, that the rawness of what
you feel, that that pain will,will change.
So the grief is still therebecause that connection, that
bond is still there, that lovecan still be there.

(22:09):
But it's just that actually therawness, the intensity of that
pain has changed because sothose conversations you can't
have with the person beingbeside you, but actually again,

(22:30):
and those continuing bonds,things that that theory, you can
still, you still have thoseconversations in your head, you
can still hear that person'svoice, you can still talk to
that photograph on the wall.
So I guess I don't do those,those things.
I I guess for me my continuingbond with the, I guess, is
actually find those places whereI find connection.
So going to places that I knowwhere we would walk together or

(22:55):
where we had spent time together, may seem strange to some
people, but actually evenactually being in the hospice
and just sort of sitting therefor a little period of time and
just sort of going, going backto times that I had sat there
before and and I guess just thatway then I reconnect to that,
to that love that I had for Bevand well, still have.
But you know that thatconnection I guess that's almost

(23:16):
like.
I keep sort of topping it up,as it, as it were, and I'm a bit
of a Marvel fan, um, so there's.
I don't know if you've ever everseen wandavision yes there's
the vision at the end where hesays what, what is grief if not
love persevering?
And you know, I've I've seenumpteen films and tv series and
and grief has never I feltreally sort of properly dealt

(23:38):
with in any of those or anything.
No, he seems to ever get it andof course it's all.
You know the five stages andstuff like that.
You know it's always sort ofthrown out but nothing else
necessarily.
So I actually just find itreally ironic that actually, for
all the slagging that sort ofthose sort of action films or
you know sort of fantasy filmssort of get that, actually it
come up with something which I,to me, is like yeah, that gets

(24:01):
it that's, that's what sort ofyou know grief is, you know.
So there's very few things outthere.
I felt anyway that in mediathat actually seemed to have
sort of caught well, actuallypart of the grieving process is
and even indeed the whole, thewhole concept of wandavision and
sort of she's trying to sort ofkeep this world that she wants
of what things were actually isgetting it, and and that bit of

(24:25):
trying to have some control of aawful uncontrollable situation
of and just trying to have thatnormal normalcy, you know,
within it.
I think actually, you know itwas dealt with really well.

Claire (24:37):
I'm thinking, when we have this oscillating back and
forth between our grief and theloss, and then the sort of
living world, as it were, wherewe are trying to engage with
life and do other things, whenyou have love for this person
and you're in those stages whereyou're going back and forwards,
do you connect with the lovefor them more in the grief side
than you do in the other side,and is it possible to maybe move

(24:59):
it from one side to the other?

David (25:01):
So what I would say for that, that and this kind of sort
of touches on to, I guess, thework that david kessler done, um
, and he had he was, he workedwith elizabeth kubler-ross and
he recently sort of added thesixth stage of grief, which is
meaning, and I guess in that way, then this this is where it's

(25:23):
about not meaning in sort of thedeath as in sort of why they
died or anything like that.
It's more about there's a Iguess I suppose it could be
looked as a sort of a growth orsort of a drive that comes as a
result of the death and you findmeaning in what has happened
through, perhaps, things thatyou do.

(25:43):
So it may be that people maysort of do charity work because
of their experience.
You know, people may sort ofrun marathons and I guess in
that way then from as a resultof the, the love that someone's
had them, that, and obviouslythe grief they're finding
meaning out from that byactually it's almost like sort

(26:03):
of using that as a sort of adriver sort of direction.
So I guess, for for me, if Ilook at where I am now, as much
as I was doing the agreementwork before with um, support
individuals.
I mean, I worked in thetelecoms at the time.
I tried to sort of carry onwith that for that job for a
while, but eventually it was myheart wasn't in the job anymore
and I wanted to do somethingdifferent.
But you know, I've eventuallyI've ended up working in in the

(26:27):
hospice, you know where my, mywife died.
But I've always been that sortof person who's been involved in
the community.
So for me, part of my, my lovefor Bev was actually and finding
meaning from what happened tome and and her death was, was
actually I want to use myexperience, my sort of knowledge

(26:48):
, to be able to support others,to be able to give back, as it
were, to to be able to sort of,you know with, with individuals
who are sort of going through asimilar experience, just to try
and sort of almost like shine alight on the road ahead for them
or a possible, you know,guiding light, as it were.

(27:08):
So for me, a part of my lovefor Bev actually does actually
feed into that.
As a result of what hashappened, all that love that was
there in that relationshipthere's, like you know, okay,
let's take a slice of that andthat just that's stays over
there and that work that I dothere is meaningful to me
because of what has happened tome, um, and that fuels that work

(27:31):
and and if we talk about sortof going back to continuing
bonds, that in some ways hasactually helped me, because I
think one of the things I sortof I think I'd mentioned in the,
in the sort of the messagesthat we we've done back in
instagram, was around about sortof year seven.
I had what I called my sevenyear itch in my grief, which was
I just felt restless becauseyou know, I was, I felt like I

(27:54):
was losing connection in someway.
You know, things were becomingmuch more distant, and so
actually now working back in thehospice to me, that's that's
sort of actually has helped meto reconnect again, and also
actually even just being in thehospice to me, that's that sort
of actually has helped me toreconnect again.
And and also actually even justbeing in the building as much
as it, it sort of can sometimesbe a little bit challenging
because I I've I go into certainrooms or go down, you know a

(28:15):
certain corridor and you can geta flash of an image or or
whatever, but actually probablysounds quite corny in a way, but
I sort of welcome that becauseit yeah, it's re-establishing
that connection when it had beenfeeling that bit weaker because
of the passage of time.

Claire (28:32):
So now, when you have a griefy moment, let's say so.
You've got the anniversarycoming up at some point, so
that'll be a moment when you'llstop and maybe some fresh grief
will appear.
In those moments are youfeeling the love for Bev, or do
you have her more in other partsof your life now, like when
you're working at the hospiceand doing things or when you're
with your family?

(28:52):
Has that love sort of moved oris it?
Do you still feel quiteconnected to her when you're
grieving?

David (28:58):
um, yeah, no, I, I still feel quite connected to her when
I'm, when I'm grieving, I think, on the, on the, the messaging
that we've done on instagram,because this whole thing around
in love, I think, was where wesort of started talking.
I guess I think part of theproblem that we have in in
english is that we, you know, wejust have this one word, love,
and so when you're in love,people sort of tend to sort of
take that well, it's, it's, Iguess, that sort of passionate

(29:21):
stage and stuff like that andwhatever.
And if I go back to sort of thein I guess ancient Greek or
whatever they tended to use,they have multiple words for
different types of love.
So eros is basically sort ofgenerally what a lot of people
tend to sort of think.
When you think of in love, it'sthat sort of passionate, sort
of sensual, sort of romanticlove.
But what happens to that in anyrelationship over a period of

(29:43):
time is that actually changes.
It's not to sort of say thatit's, it's not as intense as it
was, as originally, but it's notto say that it's, it's sort of
gone, but it just shifts into adifferent stage.
So in in the ancient greek,dysphilia, which is the
friendship sort of and sort ofthat sort of care and sort of
brotherly love, as it were.
Storg or storge, that sort offamily love, that kinship mania

(30:03):
you know is, is sort of theobsessive love.
Um, pragma, which is that sortof cherishing love, that sort of
compassionate, that sort oflong-term forged sort of
relationship and and sobasically the way I look at it
is well, I am still in love, butI am not in love as the way.
I guess in english we tend tosort of see it as being, you

(30:25):
know, that eros thing.
Actually I'm very much in thatpragma stage now and it's it's
that sort of warmth and sort oflove that I have for, for what I
did have, for the relationshipthat we had, for, and the way I
look at it is very much, youknow, I have that love, but also
I mean what I'm doing now.
When you go into a relationship, you know you have two
individuals who are both eyesand they become a we and they're

(30:48):
very much sort of integrated.
And you know the way I look atit is their roots, you know,
sort of come together and it'salmost like that sort of
symbiotic relationship.
So you know, when that other oneof those partners sort of dies.
You, that I or whoever's left,is not the same I that they were
before you.
Know you can't be that same I,as it were, that you were before

(31:11):
you.
You you had that relationship,but you, you have lost a part of
you, but your identity is ischanged.
So the I that I am now, I feelhas, is not only shaped because
of the relationship that Bev andI had.
It's also shaped by her deathand in that way it continues to
shape me, because my experienceof that drives what I do now and

(31:35):
my work or how I behave as aparent.
It's not just me, it's meshaped by her life and her death
.

Claire (31:47):
Has that been hard to accept and work through then?
Because I'm guessing somepeople would.
They don't want to be someonedifferent, do they?
They want to still be the sameperson they were with their
partner.
So to accept that actually I'ma different person, but they're
still a large part of me andthey're still a large part of
why I am who I am, Is that quitea hard thing to accept or was
that quite sort of healing asyou moved forward?

David (32:09):
um, for me, I, I, I sort of I guess I find it quite
natural just to, to have thatintegrated, you know sort of
it's I, I am, I, I can't be, Ican't go back to that.
I didn't want to go back tothat as much as obviously, I
suppose, in in those early days,you know, when the rawness of
grief, you know you want thatpain to go away, but you can't

(32:30):
go back to where way you were.
I mean, I, I remember, oh, Itell you one, one of the things
I remember people saying to mewhich I never, I never
understood, and and you know why, people come out with some of
the stupidest things.
And, so to say, when someone isgrieving, but, I people start
saying to me so are you going tomove back to belfast?
Now I'm going, no, I was like,but, but in their mind it's like

(32:51):
, well, your life here is almostlike over, as it were, because
well, you know you, you cameover here, you were, you were
with bev and well, she died.
So now I go back to your familyand it's like, well, no, my
whole life is is made here now.
I have a son, I have astepdaughter.
You know I work here it's likeI'm just not going to just move
over there back to belfast againbecause my wife's died.

(33:13):
So you know to me that it'slike I am, I'm shaped by it, I,
I have a life here and myexperience is going to sort of
shape me.
I can't go back to the way thatI was, so I've got to get, uh,
you know the, I know the pain,yeah, and the thing is as much
as obviously I've worked with alot of people over the years and

(33:34):
supporting them and I had myunderstanding from a distance of
what it was like as a widoweror a widowed person.
When you're actually in it itis so much completely different.
You know, you feel like you're,you know the fog of grief or
widow brain.
You, as mary frances o'connor'stalked about, so the way the
brains were rewiring itself, um,because of what's happened.

(33:58):
You know you feel like you'relosing your faculties.
I couldn't concentrate,couldn't read books, still,
things I was capable of doingbefore, I just couldn't do those
for for a period of time, um,and so I knew I had to override
that, that wave or those wavesof grief, and then with time I
would be okay.
So I knew what I was goingthrough and experience was
perfectly normal, but it wasstill like, well, this just

(34:20):
feels so much different fromwhat I thought it could feel
like.
But I knew that once I gotthrough that intensity, shall we
say that more intense phase,that okay, I could then sort of
go back and do other things andeven if say, if we look at you,
talk about hope.
Um, you, you know, and you knowI was what, 40, 45 at the time,

(34:42):
and much as I thought I wasgoing to spend the rest of my
life and grow old with bev, thatdidn't happen and I didn't.
I didn't sort of go okay,that's it.
Well, I'm done, I'll never findlove again or anything like
that whatever.
I knew that I didn't feel in inthis at this moment in time.
You know I wasn't interested inthat, but I had hope that, okay

(35:05):
, there's the possibility of,you know, being able to meet
someone else and and fall inlove again.
But I knew at that stage Icertainly wasn't ready for it.
Um, I had to sort myself out, bein a good, you know, a good
place to be able to, to givemyself to to someone else, as
opposed to I need to be fixed byfinding someone else, I guess,
which sometimes some people maydo.

(35:27):
And I guess if you look at thegenders between widows and
widowers, the difference is thatsometimes I suppose they, they,
and I think it's to do withsort of the relationships that
that we have but there's ahigher tendency for men to start
new relationships sooner thanthan females, because all their
emotional support has previouslycome from their partner.

(35:49):
So to get that emotional supportwhich they perhaps don't get
from their male friends, theyneed to find someone, um, and so
sometimes they're starting intoa relationship much earlier
because I need this and and it'salmost like I'm still sort of
very much in the rawness ofgrief, but actually I'm sort of
getting some kind of um fix, asit were, by by being in that

(36:10):
emotional relationship, byhaving that emotional support,
support, because I don't getthat emotional support from my
male friendships.
You know, we, we go to the pub,afterwards we have a chat, but
we don't get that emotionaldepth which I get only from my
partner, whereas femalefriendships you get that
emotional sort of connection,that that depth, whatever, very
much around, probably from a lotof, you know, of friendships.

(36:33):
So therefore, that emotionalspace, that that sort of
emotional support that perhapsgoes from your partner.
Actually, I've still got enoughfrom elsewhere that I can draw
from to support me, and I don'tnecessarily have to go into a
new relationship until I feelready yeah, it does seem I've
heard that a few times thatwidowers do tend to to find
someone else quicker and thatwould make sense.

Claire (36:53):
I haven't really heard it from that point of view and I
also think that, if I'm goingto stereotype a little bit with
men, there is that kind ofnatural fix-it mentality.
Let's find a way to fix this,which obviously you can't with
griefs.
So, like what you said earlierabout people saying you know,
are you going to move back toBelfast?
That's just a sort of probablya natural response is I need to

(37:15):
fix this grief and either I getthe person back and that fixes
it, which I can't do or I goback to my life before I met
them and see if that will fix it, but that doesn't do it either.
So there are all these thingsthat you can see people looking
to to try and fix it.
Especially if you're notsomebody that wants to allow
yourself to sort of really sitin the grief and go through it
and I'd imagine for some menthere'll be obviously women as
well that can be particularlydifficult to let yourself just

(37:35):
sit there and accept I can't fixthis and it's awful and there's
nothing I can do about it.
That's quite a terrifying placefor some people to be,
especially if you've got thatkind of I need to get going, I
need to be back to where I was,or I need to fix this, I need to
sort it.
So that is really hard.
Yeah, so I can understand whypeople sort of think like that,
but I've often said to Chris, ifsomething happened to him.
I don't know if my parents aregoing to listen to this, but I

(37:58):
don't want to just go back andlive with my parents and revert
back to a life before him,because my fear is it would be
even more confusing.
You would get the support youneeded.
It would be a lovelyenvironment to be in, because
you're like cocooned in a littleway.
You know you've got peoplearound you looking after you.
But I've also, from doing thepodcast, spoken to enough people
to know that if I don't make myown life afterwards, if I don't
try and find a way to make that, I could very easily revert

(38:22):
back to you know before, whichobviously isn't possible.
You know it can't really help.
And long-term, I don't knowthat helps with the grief grief
or forging a life ahead.

David (38:30):
But, um, I can understand why people reach for all these
different things yeah, and itmay not necessarily help the
relationship between you knowyou and your parents, as it were
, because you know you're notthe same person you know, sort
of you had this experience of Idon't know doing these things
and having that freedom andsuddenly now I hold on, I'm in
their home, I've got to sort oftry and do things their way,
whatever.
But it sort of ties in with.

(38:50):
There's another bit of researchthat was done into grieving
styles by kenneth doka andmartin's the surname of the
individual, I can't remember hisfirst name, but they they done
around sort of the differencesin the gender styles and
grieving.
I can't remember the name ofthe book, but essentially what.
What they looked at was theysort of see grief as being on a,

(39:10):
a continuum, and at one end ofthe continuum you've got
intuitive grievers and at theother end you've got
instrumental grievers and we alltend to sit somewhere along
that sort of continuum, thatspectrum.
So, intuitive grievers theirresponse in grief is very much
about sort of expressing theiremotions, being opened by
talking their feelings, you know, crying, maybe, sort of seeking

(39:32):
support from others.
Opened by talking theirfeelings, you know, crying,
maybe, sort of seeking supportfrom others and sort of.
You know, they've got to bemuch more expressive about their
grief and getting it out andprocessing it.
Instrumental grievers had atendency they would sort of be
more sort of task orientated, somore sort of action, more sort
of cognitive.
You know, thinking about stuffso it's sort of thinking and
doing, as opposed to maybeoutwardly sort of cognitive.

(39:53):
You're thinking about stuff soit's sort of thinking and doing,
as opposed to maybe, um,outwardly sort of expressing it.
They would maybe tend toproblem solve or be sort of take
action, maybe where they would,you know, rather than say maybe
intuitive griever want to go toa support group, talk about how
they felt, whatever, uh, aninstrumental griever might be.
You know what?
I'm going to sort of run amarathon and raise funds for the

(40:13):
, the charity that supported,you know, my loved one, or
whatever.
So basically, we all sort of sitsomewhere along this where we
sort of might sort of be moreintuitive, you know, sort of in
our processes, or moreinstrumental, more sort of
action and sort of doing.
I mean, I would sort of say forme I sort of I'm probably maybe
in more of the middle because Ido an element of both, but what,
what they they find was thatthere was a bias in the genders,

(40:36):
where a lot more men seem to beinstrumental grievers and a lot
more women seem to be moreintuitive grievers.
And I guess this is wheresometimes that within a family
unit or within, say you know, asort of a special relationship,
you know, where the parentsmight say, for example, lose a
child, is that they both dealwith their grief differently and

(40:57):
one individual thinks that theother person isn't grieving or
isn't grieving correctly becauseyou're not grieving the same
way as me.
And this is where I guess, sortof a mom and dad, you know
sometimes relationships you see,where they they lose a child,
it can actually be a case ofactually, depending on how they
connect with each other, talk toeach other, that actually that

(41:17):
friction comes there becauseyou're not grieving my way and
therefore you're not sure offeeling the grief, as opposed to
the other individuals actuallyjust grieving in a different way
.
They are still feeling it, butjust they're processing it
differently.

Claire (41:31):
Yeah, that makes sense.
In CS Lewis's book A GriefObserved, he has this worry at
one point that he's turning hiswife, who had died, into
somebody she wasn't, and Iwonder if that's another
dangerous thing.
You talked about people havingshrines to their partners, but
also he would talk to her and hewould say stuff like oh, if she
was here she'd say this.
And then he suddenly stoppedhimself and thought I don't know
what she would say, like shemight be different now, and

(41:55):
there's that fear that suddenlyI've made her into somebody she
wasn't, rather than rememberingwho she was.
Is that something that's evercome up for you, because I've
never really heard of that beingtalked about before.

David (42:04):
I would say I mean sometimes having conversations,
sort of family sort ofconversations, and that.
And this is where people havedifferent memories and and I
suppose you know, somebody mayremember, you know, sometimes,
some incident and and view itthat bev said this and and they
took it to mean, I don't know,it was something disrespectful
or nasty, whatever, and it'sactually well, hold on, I, I

(42:26):
can't remember that, you know.
So it's almost like thatdoesn't seem like what I would
recall that she would do you,you know, but obviously they've,
they've recalled it and ofcourse they've recalled it from
their perspective, from theirinterpretation, and of course
there's no adjudicator.
You can't turn to Bev and gowell, actually, what was it
about anymore, you know.
So you do encounter some ofthose moments where you have

(42:47):
different people's perspectivesand also, you know memories that
sort of OK, okay, I'm not quitesure that would be my
perception of my essence, of ofbev, as it were.
So sometimes little things likethat will will come up.
I would, um, you know, I wouldsay there's nothing necessarily,
totally, you know, sort ofjarring and sort of oh no,

(43:08):
that's, that's not it, and I'mnot putting on a pedestal or
whatever.
I know she had her faults, Ihave my faults, we all have our
faults and stuff like that.
But I guess, maybe, perhapswhen you're in that sort of more
intimate relationship withsomeone as opposed to sort of
being someone who's a friend orthat sort of circle further away
from them, when you're verymuch there you actually get to
see the wholeness of the person.
You probably tend to naturallysee them more on their best day,

(43:31):
as it were, than necessarilyyou know their worst.
But yeah, I know there werethings.
I'm sure that this probably didcome up with over time, but for
me I guess I just sort of, youknow, as it were, warts and all
you know I accept it as beingher and you know I love her.

Claire (43:51):
So you've got this love for someone.
It's changed after they're gone, but it's still there.
What happens when you meetsomebody new?
Because a lot of the widows orwidowers we're speaking to on
the podcast, a lot of them havegone on to meet new people.
So I was chatting to Chrisyesterday and I was like what
would you ask David?
Like got any questions aboutlove after that conversation.
We had that on the podcastbefore and he said well, if you

(44:13):
love someone with your wholeheart, what happens if you meet
somebody new?
Can you love two people withyour whole heart?
Does it have to be anunderstanding between you that I
still have love for somebodyelse?
Is that a threat in any way?
Yeah, what does that look like?

David (44:27):
so that, the way I look at it, and it is something that
it's not, it's not somethingthat you switch off, you know,
sort of fight, so the love thatyou felt for this person right,
okay, I've met someone else sothat you know that light is
switched off, you leave thatroom and whatever, and then you
go into this other room wherethere's the light switched on to
this new love that's formingfor this other person.
I suppose the way I would tryto get the concept across to

(44:49):
people is, if parents have achild, if they have another
child that they don't suddenlywrite, okay, the love that we
have for that child is now goneand we're transferring it all
into that, you know, into thisnew child.
Um, or you know, if you are inthe same way that if people were
to sort of get you know pet dogor something like that, it's
not sort of you get a second petdog.

(45:10):
It's like the sort of we don'tbother with the original dog.
It's basically love grows, youknow, love expands.
So it's a case of the love thatyou have for your dead spouse
your deceased is still there butthere's just love flourishing
for someone else alongside ofthat force for someone else.

(45:35):
Alongside of that, I guess forsome people, if you look for
going into a relationship withthat, with sort of the way I
look at it and I've sort ofalways said that going into a
new relationship they wouldalways be well depend on who the
other person was.
They would always be three in arelationship, as it were.
You know them and the love.
You know the relationship Ihave with Bev, as it is actually

(45:56):
in a relationship where there'sfour of us.
So there's me, my deceasedspouse and my girlfriend and her
deceased spouse, so she's awidow.
Now that probably makes thingseasier from an understanding
perspective in that we both getthe fact that the other person
still very much feels that thatlove for you know, for their,

(46:18):
their deceased spouse, and wehave conversations around that
and it's very much sort of openand talking.
There will always be fourpeople in this relationship.
I know for some people and I'veheard it with other friends or
widowed, that it can be achallenge for the incoming
person, as it were, to feelsecure in the relationship.
You know, when there's thisother person, this person, this

(46:40):
dead person who's still verymuch a part of someone's life in
some shape or form.
And I guess what I would say isthat the new spouse, the new
person, the partner, has to bevery sort of secure within
themselves to be able tounderstand that this person has
had a life with this otherindividual and therefore that
that love is still going to bethere, that relationship, that

(47:02):
connection is still going to bethere and they are holding space
for for that and also then forthe this new love that's
emerging in this newrelationship.
So it's, it is.
You do have to be, I suppose,more emotionally secure, and I
know of people who have tried it, dated, and that relationship
hasn't worked out because theother person gets jealous.

Claire (47:24):
Yeah, I've seen that done on TV in sitcoms and things
sometimes where there I thinkit was a girl met a widower and
her friends were just like don'tdo it, because the previous
wife is like immortalized, she'snever going to get anything
wrong now.
So you're up against this womanwho's sort of perfect now
really, because that's sort ofhow I think we like to remember.
You know not fully, but yeah, Ican see that would be how it

(47:46):
would work if someone was comingin.
Especially if you've got nounderstanding of grief, I can
really see the pitfalls and thearguments or just not being able
to understand that could comeup.
Whereas when you've both beenthrough it that for me when you
were saying that, I thought it'sa bit like your jar that you
were talking about.
It's almost like you're growingwith more capacity for love.
You're now loving more people.

(48:06):
It's not, like you said,replacing one for the other.

David (48:17):
It's actually I can love two people now, which is a
really lovely thought you do getsometimes.
I know from some of the widowedgroups that I'm in online where
people will compare they've metsomeone who's been divorced and
oh yes, yes, I get it.
I know what you mean and it'slike it's just not the same.
You know it's.
Both are losses, but they'redifferent losses and you know
you can't compare't compare.
It's apples and pears, as itwere.
You know they're two differentthings.

(48:38):
And and yeah, I mean I guessfor me I suppose both people
have to.
In a relationship where one hasbeen widowed and they're
starting a new relationship,both living people, as it were,
have to be in an emotionallygood place to be able to, to
still give to each other, aswell as the, the bereaved
individual still being able tofind a space then that they're
able to, to do what they need todo, to to manage their, their

(49:01):
love and their grief for their,their deceased.
So it does for me, I guess itdoes take work you know, and
doing that, as any relationshipyou you know would would take.
But it can be, it can be tricky,I mean certainly.
I mean I I didn't myself, I Isort of.
It wasn't until probably aboutthree years after Bev died that

(49:23):
I I sort of considered, you know, sort of dating again and did
date someone for for for a while.
That didn't, you know, didn'twork out again, essentially
because know we weren'tcompatible.
You know, uh, as opposed to, Iwasn't ready for it, but it was
a case of for me, I guess Ineeded to be in a better place
in order for me to give, to givelove.

(49:43):
I needed to be in a betterplace.
So my, my personal attitude wasI I can't do anything like that.
I'm too respectful of otherpeople, you know, to sort of go
in, as it were, and have noconsideration for their feelings
.
So I need to be in a betterplace to be able to give that
and to sort of to be um moresecure, more sort of comfortable
within my own grief, so thatI'm not sort of damaged well,

(50:06):
not damaged goods, as it were,sort of trying to be repaired.
You know I'm going in it forthe right reasons, but yeah,
there might be other otherpeople who sort of would go
straight into it and, like youwere saying, there sort of I've
got to fix this.
So my way of fixing this painis to, yeah, let's plug that gap
, let's find someone else and Ican get that.
Whatever I need, whether it'swidow's fire or or whatever that

(50:30):
some people you know may need,but people would jump into that.
But also, the fact is, I mean,the other thing for me was very
much my focus, as well asobviously put on myself and
getting myself right, my focuswas on on my son and sort of
supporting supporting him, youknow, as a bereaved child.
So it was like, right, mywell-being, I will do, I will

(50:51):
manage my grief and I will dowhat I need to do.
But you know me, as far as youknow, any kind of relationship
whatever, that's not the timeand place now.
He needs to be okay, he needsto be better and I need to look
after him.
I guess, once things sort ofhad got to a better place in
that respect and I was in abetter place, okay, I can, I can
consider it then, but it wascertainly not something that I

(51:12):
know.
I know some people you know, ofof similar age or maybe even
older, and some of the groupshave sort of how much have said
you know the groups I meanthey've very much said that you
know he was the love of my life,because a lot of the groups do
tend to be you know that I meando tend to be sort of more
females than the males, but youknow I, I don't want anyone else
.
I'll never.
I'll never meet anyone elseagain or whatever, and I never.

(51:32):
I mean as much as I wanted agirl with Bev.
That didn't happen, but I wouldnever sort of preclude myself
from the possibility of meetingsomeone else, but certainly it
wasn't anything that I'mthinking right.
This is not going to happen now,but you know, perhaps in time,
whereas I do find some peopleyou know, maybe if I mean, I was

(51:54):
um 45 at the time but you knowparticularly people you know who
are maybe that bit older, maybesort of you know later, in
their 50s or sort of early 60s,where they've had this 20, you
know, 30, 40 or whatever youknow year relationship and
they're much of saying I'm done.
You know, I can't sort ofimagine myself with anyone else,

(52:14):
don't want to be with anyoneelse.
He was perfect or whatever and,um, I find it it's almost like,
well, I know you're gonna feelthat way now, but don't shut
yourself off from thepossibility of finding someone
else you're not looking for andyou have no intention looking
for.
That you know, at this momentin time.
But don't sort of have thatattitude necessarily going
forward, because we all well, Ithink most of us all want to

(52:38):
have some kind of sort of loveand if you and you've been in
that loving relationship thatyou've had for such a long time
with someone, don't, don't shutyourself off from the
possibility of maybe finding outwith someone else.
It'll be different, you know,but there'll be lots of new
experiences that you can, youcan have and I guess almost like
sort of shutting that door andsort of having that attitude.
It's like is that really whatyou want?

(53:00):
I know you're feeling your painor whatever at the moment, but
who knows?
And I guess that's for me.
But you know, the hope was forme was that, yeah, this has
happened.
I always wanted to grow a wallwith, with someone and, you know
, have a family and stuff likethat.

Claire (53:14):
It wasn't Bev that I had to do that with, but I still
want to do it with someone yeah,I guess it's never a good idea
in in these stages to put anyabsolutes down about anything,
because it's hard to make anydecisions at that stage.
And I've seen young widowers,yeah, get into relationships
very quickly, just months after.
But I've also seen them thenhave to stop dating a year down

(53:35):
the line and just back up andactually start to grieve
properly because it had been tooquick.
So I guess it's all just.
It's all timing, isn't it?
Is there anything you know nowthat you wish you knew back when
it happened, when you werefirst grieving?
Anything you could say to thatDavid if you saw him?

David (53:50):
I suppose the thing was, it was that intensity of the
rawness of grief, of actuallyunderstanding how all-consuming
it could be and how it canimpact you.
I guess maybe sort of like, justwatch out for a few things, if
I was giving my younger selfsome advice or whatever, so that

(54:10):
bit around, sort of feelinglike you were losing your
marbles, just that lack ofconcentration, whatever, and
it's one of those things.
As much as I knew it was fine,it was normal.
I guess what you don't know ishow long is it going to take?
Because it's a very much it's apersonal thing and so if
somebody sort of could have saidto me right, you'll feel more
like yourself and I think itprobably took me to begin to

(54:32):
feel that somewhat was probablyeight to ten months I think
later where I started to getsome of my concentration that
back, if somebody sort of givenme sort of said, right, okay,
look, it's going to be reallyrough this period of time here,
but by then you'll start to feelthat that probably would have
would have helped me.
So having an understanding ofwhen some of those things would
change, as opposed to being itcompletely unknown, and it's

(54:55):
almost, you know, it'suncomfortable, um enough,
dealing with the grief and andall this sort of you know, all
all the losses that come with it, because obviously there's the
primary loss, which is you knowwhich was Bev, but you have all
the secondary losses that goaround, that you know, the you
know loss of, you know, I guess,the future loss of sort of
security in a relationship, lossof confidence, you know, all

(55:16):
those other losses that comewith that.
You know, having some advice orlike some of these things will
sort of get better by here, byhere and knowing a little bit of
the timeline, probably for me,maybe being more in this
instrumental griever type aspectmight have been been helpful to
sort of right.
Okay, I know, I just need tomanage it for this length of

(55:38):
time.
It's going to be this intenseand I can deal with that.
It's the big unknown, which Ithink is a bit.
It just adds to that feeling ofoverwhelmingness that you get.
I mean, I I'm one for using alot of sort of metaphors and
similes and grief work that I dowith people and I often sort of
say that you know this rawnessof grief, it's almost like
you're standing that sort of youknow the cliff's edge, big

(56:00):
cliff.
That's actually not looking outover the sea or whatever, but
it's just looking out over thismassive landscape and it just
rolls on and rolls on and rollson and and it just seems so
overwhelming of how the heck amI going to get to where the
horizon is, a place where grieffeels better?
And it's just what you've got todo is just to sort of focus
down on those next few steps andjust keep doing those next few

(56:20):
steps and maybe occasionallysort of glance up at the
mid-range, but don't keeplooking for the horizon or for
the distance, because it justfeels so far away just being
able to sort of look down andmanage the next day or then
maybe sort of the next sort ofhour.
Sometimes it may have to be justfocus on on that and then maybe
, you know, with a bit of time,as you carry on through that

(56:42):
sort of landscape, you mightthen be able to lift your head
up a little bit and look forwardand think about the week ahead
or maybe the month ahead andover a period of time you are
working through that landscape,but it just feels so
overwhelming and so vast whenyou're actually there at the
start of your grief.
It's almost like sort of beingat the bottom of the mountain
and sort of looking up and howthe hell am I ever going to be
able to climb up this thing?

(57:03):
You just take it one step at atime.
Difficult is, though, addingthat lack of control in that
uncontrollable situation.
It's just like it is reallyhard, as we're trying to deal
with that, especially whenyou're trying to juggle lots of
other things at the same time.

Claire (57:18):
Yeah, that's why I really like this episode to
explore this as a let's Chat,because we could have done this
as a 101 loss.
But actually I think there's alot in what you say and what you
can offer.
That is, I say, preparing usfor grief.
I am aware that to an extent,there's nothing that can
properly prepare you for whatyou're about to go through, but
I've been through stuff and whenI'm in things sometimes knowing

(57:39):
stories or hearing that otherpeople have got through, it for
me has been where some of myhope is.
So I look at like the loss ofChris and that's one of the big
ones I think, oh, my word, youknow no children, there's no one
.
He is my kind of world.
Really.
This is.
This would be huge.
How am I going to do this?
But I think about it because Iinterview people about it and I
want to know.
But it's these kinds ofconversations that I really
believe I will cling to, even ifI can't listen to them at the

(58:01):
time or even if I can't processmuch.
There'll be something in therethat said David got through this
.
David said it was this manymonths.
Maybe that's what it will befor me, maybe it'll longer.
But there's people around youand I know so many people now.
If it happened to me, I'd bepinging emails to all the people
I know have been through it.
Tell me, tell me how you dothis, Because I know you can't
fully prepare for it, but Ireally think this is important.

(58:22):
But the frustrating thing ispeople who haven't been through
this kind of loss don't reallywant to listen to people talking
about what it's like to gothrough something horrific, so
it's so hard to help people.
The muggles.
The muggles, as you call them.
Yeah, the people who haven'tbeen through that grief yet.
Yeah, it's hard to educate themuggles, and I understand it.
You know life's going great.
Why would you want to sit andlisten to a podcast about

(58:43):
someone whose wife died and howyou get through it?
But I just think they're soimportant to learn so that it's
just like.
You know, I had people in ourfamily who didn't have children.
One auntie especially, who justkind of adopted auntie, spent
her whole life like that and forme it was a beacon of like look
, look how happy she is withlife, look how much she gets out
of life.
It can be done.

(59:03):
So I just think, yeah, I justreally hope that you know the
people who listen to this, whohaven't been there yet, will
just tuck this away as a kind oflike this is what it's like.
I won't know how long it lasts,but if I'm still grieving after
eight, ten months a year,that's okay.
Like, give it time, and that isa lot of time.

David (59:19):
I mean, that must have felt endless grief is nothing
new, much as we have counselingand therapies, and that now
humans have been experiencinggrief for for thousands of years
.
Most people don't necessarilyneed counseling.
You know there's a lot of thing.
Oh you, you know someone's died, right?
Okay, you need to get yourselfsome more from grief counseling.
Most people actually don'tnecessarily need counseling.
You know there's a lot ofthings.
Oh, you know, someone's died,right?
Okay, you need to get yourselfsome grief counseling.
Most people actually don't needgrief counseling.
Yes, there's a percentage, butthe stats tend to show that

(59:40):
actually most people what theyneed is a supportive network, so
whether that's friends, family,whether that's a community
group that they may find of sortof peer support.
You know, that's that's whatwill support people and help
them to get through it, and itjust takes some time.
So I think the stats sort oftend to show that probably for
most people, somewhere between18 months to sort of two years

(01:00:06):
or, you know, maybe a little bitlonger, is probably a
reasonable time frame whichpeople will feel, you know, more
like what they were before.
Now, that's not to sort of saythat everybody falls into that,
you know, because we're allindividuals and very much
depends on the relationship thatyou, you know that you've lost
and you know and, but it cantake a indication away, the sort

(01:00:29):
of okay, that's that I givemyself the space for that.
A lot of people tend to think ohwell, after you've done all the
first, you know that first year, well, you've gone through the
worst of it, so it should be noproblem.
But I mean, that's the mythmost, most people will will find
.
What I would say is that thefirst year is obviously very
challenging, but the second yearis going to be challenging,

(01:00:49):
probably in a different way.
Some people may say morechallenging.
I don't know about that, but Iwill say it will be different,
because what tends to happen isget a lot of support in that
first year.
Then that support tends to sortof drift away because people
sort of see you or expect you tobe okay now.
No, you're still dealing withit.
But then when you've lost thatadditional support that was

(01:01:10):
there for you, it feels evenworse and more challenging
because I don't have what I hadand in those early months.
So I did find that sort ofdifference there of sort of
right, okay, well, that was yearone and sort of year two now
and and indeed I mean, it'ssomething it revisits.
You know, grief sort of it's acompanion, so it will revisit,

(01:01:31):
you know, every so often and,and I guess you know, the more
often it sort of revisits, themore familiar I become with it.
Another one that I use thatgrief is like a puppy, like a
puppy dog.
So in the rawness of grief, uh,this, this is usually, if I'm,
if I'm doing some sort of griefawareness workshops or talks,
whatever.
I'll maybe sort of try and endwith this because it's a little

(01:01:52):
bit light-hearted after you'vebeen talking about some some
heavier stuff, but it's just asort of a way of looking at it.
Um, so basically your griefwill come to us like a puppy dog
, will come to us and it wantsour attention.
And you know, sometimes, likethe puppy, you might try and
push it away, but it will keepcoming back and if you keep
pushing away it may go off andmay sort of do its its own thing

(01:02:12):
.
You know, and grief, if youkeep sort of shutting it away
and trying to sort of lock itaway or whatever, it may sort of
be disruptive.
It might sort of come out.
You know, at some point whenyou don't want it to, you might
have all that sort of grief, youmight have all that sort of
pent-up anger that's just sortof building up because you keep
pushing it away.
And unfortunately, what tends tohappen then is that actually

(01:02:33):
will tend to come out when youdon't want it or when you least
expect it, or in a mostdestructive way, like perhaps a
puppy dog might go off and sortof start eating your shoes or
making a mess or something upbecause you're not giving the
attention.
So the wiser thing to do is toactually spend some time with
your grief, to give, give it theattention, to interact with it,
to get to know it, to get tounderstand it, its

(01:02:55):
characteristics, its habits, itsneeds, so that you then know
how to support it.
And when it's had yourattention, you know for that
period of time that it needsattention.
Grief like a puppy dog willnaturally go away and it's okay,
I've had my fill.
And it won't necessarily intrudeon you for for another time.
But by becoming more familiarwith it, understanding that, you

(01:03:17):
know, you learn what activatesyour grief, what may trigger it,
you know you can try and managethose situations better because
you know those things.
And we become more accustomedas to what our grief needs from
us and in time, as I said, itbecomes a companion.
You're're more comfortable withit.
It's something that sitsalongside of you, that you're
okay when it approaches youbecause you know now it will

(01:03:40):
only last for a certain amountof time and it will go off.

Claire (01:03:44):
I love the idea of it kind of turning into like an old
dog.
That's just sort of there.
It's not bothering you, butit's there.
It's sort of a calm presence,almost no-transcript.
Hmm.

David (01:04:02):
I guess what I would say is I suppose, in the intensity,
in the rawness of grief, I guessthere's a part of you that
probably wishes you didn't havethat love, because then you'd be
free from the pain.
You know, in those intensemoments, you know, particularly
in those sort of early dayswhere it's just trying to, those
waves of grief that wash overyou are, you know, relentless

(01:04:26):
grief that wash over you.
Or you know, like you know,relentless, but put it this way
it's, I would say it makes itharder and, yes, in in those
early moments, but actually, doyou know what it's now?
It's, it's more meaningful.
You know that, that love that Ihave, that I have for her and I
it probably sounds cheesy, Iknow, because it's probably one
of those things and I guess I'veheard other people say in the
podcast, but I, I wouldn'tchange it.
It's shaped me as to who I amnow, what I offer.

(01:04:49):
You know what I can give topeople who've gone through
similar experiences.
When I give to to my girlfriend, because actually, without
having gone through thatexperience, I wouldn't be given
what I can offer her now.
If I hadn't gone through that,I would be a different person.
I'm a better person because ofwhat has happened to me and it
allows me to give so much more,to be more enriched, as much as

(01:05:14):
and and I guess you can onlysort of probably get to that
when it's that sort of distancefrom it.
You know that that growtharound your grief has has
happened, in that it's not asintense or as painful as what it
was, because just the intensityof it it's almost like um
maslow's hierarchy of needs.
You know it's actually in thatintensity of grief you, you need

(01:05:34):
to be just focusing on thesebasics because that emotional,
you know stuff you're not goingto be able to sort of do
properly or fully until you'remuch more aware, understanding
and have processed your, yourgrief.
And the thing is with grief is,you know, you can't go around
it, you can't go over it, youcan't go under it, you've got to
go through it.
And in going through it youknow that sort of treacle, you
know that molasses, that mud,whatever way you want to do it.

(01:05:56):
Sometimes it's really difficultworking through that.
It's heavy work, but actuallyover a period of time, you know,
doing that work allows you tosort of move, move through it
much easier.
It's still going to be there,but you're more accustomed to it
, more familiar with it, and sofor me it's like all the benefit

(01:06:17):
doesn't necessarily sound theright thing, but all the values
that it's now sort of given me,all you know, I actually am able
to sort of give to, you know,to karen, and support her.
You know, um, and she cansupport me and and we talk.
I mean, the one thing I guesswe often sort of say is, you
know, we ask well, what, whatwould you know?
Tico's um, her, her husband, um, and what would tico think of

(01:06:42):
me, what would bev think of her?
And on all those things youknow and sort of that, we go
through and whatever.
And it's just the fact that withhaving that space now from the,
as it were, from the epicenter,you know, it just allows you to
have those more softerreflections that you know.
Yes, grief will pop up andsometimes it can be sort of a
bit more emotive, but actuallyyou can look back with fondness

(01:07:04):
now, as opposed to looking backand feeling only pain.
But you can only get that whenyou've had that passage of time
that's allowed you to workthrough your grief.
It's not just time alone.
Time alone does not give anyhealing, as it were.
It's time allows you to processit and you've got to do the
work to process it to get tothat better place.

Claire (01:07:27):
I've heard it talked about that sometimes we expect
the grief to have the sameintensity or to represent the
love that we have.
So if we're really close tosomeone, we love them for a long
time, we expect that grief tobe more intense, to hurt more,
to last longer because of that.
Is there any truth to that?
Or do you think because I'mthinking some people who've been

(01:07:48):
married 60 years might grievequite naturally for their
partner because they've had areally good life together?
So it's not necessarilysomething that would follow, but
what's your opinion of that?

David (01:07:56):
For me.
I guess that what I've lookedat is rather than time as being
the measure, it's more about howmuch that relationship meant to
you, the significance of thatrelationship to you.
So people could meet and onlybe met very sort of briefly, but
actually have had a veryintense relationship.
You know, connection, whateverit may be, and actually someone

(01:08:18):
can be really sort of floored bythat fact that they've lost
this connection that they had itwas really significant to them
whereas other people from theoutside go, well, you only know
each other for like four monthsor six months or something like
that.
Well, you shouldn't be feelingthis, you know, or you get the I
know it's sometimes happened onthe, the facebook groups is

(01:08:39):
that where someone has losttheir partner, that the you know
, the parents have sort of youknow this is where sometimes I
guess sort of you know, stepfamilies can sort of not
necessarily be the mostsupportive, but they've, they've
had the parents.
Well, you know, I've lost myson and I had my son for 40
years.
You only had him for two yearsso you know, how can you feel

(01:09:00):
anything is intense, and this isnot about time, it's about, for
me, it's's about the connectionthat was made, the relationship
and the significance of thatrelationship to the person who
is still living.
You know, and that's the bit.
You can't measure that.
You know, it's not sort oflet's plot that on the graph or
whatever, because it's very muchfelt here, you know, and that's

(01:09:24):
why you know I'd move away fromthe time concept, but actually
it's more about the, theconnection that that was made
and and what that meant, or whatthat still means, I guess, to
someone yeah, definitely so, asyou're working through this
grief and then you meet somebodyelse.

Claire (01:09:42):
Just from anyone out there that's maybe, you know,
embarking on this withthemselves, or they're thinking
about meeting someone else andthey're just like how does this
work?
Was this information that youshared quite quickly about each
other, that you had been widowed, and how were the conversations
around sort of trying to bringup that you do want your partner
to be part of the relationship?
Still, there will be three orfour of you in this relationship
.
Was that difficult?

(01:10:02):
We got any tips for people onthat?

David (01:10:04):
so I guess with that wasn't sort of difficult with
the relationship I'm in in now,I guess, when I mean I only had
one dating experience beforethis, this current one and that
was absolutely like you know,friends of friends type of
scenario.
So you know, they, they sort ofknew of my circumstances, so it
was something.
There were some questionsaround it, whatever, and things

(01:10:25):
would maybe occasionally come up, but they, they knew, they knew
me, so I wasn't sort of havingto go in cold as it were, and I
guess then my currentrelationship.
I suppose that came about in aprobably a more unique way,
ironically.
I mean, I'd said how I met bevand when I was opening up myself
to the possibility of of datingagain after Bev died, I, um, I

(01:10:49):
thought, right, okay, don't wantto go down this internet route,
because that was a real problemin my day.
Now it's like sort of 20 yearslater or whatever, and it's like
there's swipe left and all thatstuff and whatever it's like I
I'm I'm not sort of, you know,wanting to sort of put myself
through that anymore, so Ithought I'll do the face-to-face
stuff.
So you know, I met someone inin person, I guess.

(01:11:12):
Then what?
What happened?
How I met karen is there'sanother podcast that I had been
interviewed on quite a few yearsago what do we do now?
And I was interviewed as a, as aguest, on that and karen
interviewed, and basically justboth talking about our
experience, and shortlythereafter they set up a
Facebook group and so I justhappened to sort of message

(01:11:34):
Karen, because she was sort ofnewly widowed at that point and
some of the stuff she'd said inher interview resonated with me
and I thought, well, yeah, Iremember when I was going
through that and I sort ofsuggested look, some of these
things you know that this iswhat I did sort of try and help
me.
And so basically, we um, we justsort of corresponded through
that, through messaging, and youknow, I guess we were just
talking about stuff.

(01:11:55):
She'd asked questions and Iguess she was probably trying to
sort of just, you know, reallysort of solicit some advice,
because that guiding light, asit were, the for like speak to
somebody further along, sort oftry and help her with things,
and so, basically, you know thatwent on for for a few months
and this was, this was, oh, thisis going back to 2020, when
we're all in, in lockdown, youknow, when the whole world was

(01:12:17):
wasn't?
In lockdown.
So we just sort of messaged andthen sort of you know messages
turned into you know whatsappcalls and FaceTime or whatever,
and so we just formed thisrelationship over, well, a long
distance.
And I say a long distancebecause the group that I was in
was more of a North Americabased group, so Karen's from
Canada, so it was a very longdistance.

Claire (01:12:39):
Yeah.

David (01:12:39):
We have a very long distance.
We still have a very longdistance relationship.
But basically we had our firstdate september the year after,
because basically with all thewhole lockdowns and travel and
stuff like that, it was almostlike a year and so many months
after we had connected was ourfirst date.
And that was really weird, youknow, when she she sort of flew
over for here and um, having afirst date with someone who

(01:13:02):
you've actually sort of known,you know really well yeah and
you've had these deep,meaningful conversations and
whatever, and it's it's almostlike it's just what was surreal
and and I guess the thing iswith with that is that we both
held space for for each other,that sort of space for her talk
about tico, for me to talk aboutbev, for the stardust

(01:13:23):
experience.
We were just able to do thatand obviously I didn't go into
it from the fact that I wanted arelationship.
I just went into the fact that,you know, being able to support
other people, that sort ofcommunity aspect of being able
to give back, being able tosupport people, to be like a
guiding light or whatever.
That's been part of my healingprocess out of what has happened
to me, to be able to sort oftry and help to a degree,

(01:13:44):
someone, someone who's earlierthan that, as best as I can.
As it was.
We ended up falling in love andwhatever.
And you know, it's one of thosethings.

Claire (01:13:53):
And what a nice way to meet, because then you naturally
knew a lot about each otherbefore you even made contact if
you listened to each other'sepisodes.
So all of that kind of chatabout being widowed and stuff
was sort of naturally done foryou, I guess, at the beginning I
guess it was just sort of we,we both knew these other
situations.

David (01:14:07):
I, I get you know, I guess there was.
There was nothing that was sortof off topic with regards to oh
, can I ask, that type ofquestion can I, you know, say
that type of thing or whatever?
we were both, you know, bothcomfortable and sort of asking
those questions, trying tounderstand who tico was or who
bev was, as as much as you know,we could share, share those
things.
So it's like, I guess,sometimes that awkwardness that

(01:14:29):
perhaps may sort of if someonewas dating someone who had no
such experience, you know, it'slike, well, the person who
hasn't been bereaved, are theyable to ask those questions, you
know, is it too pertinent, isit too prying, or whatever?
Well, I guess, for for us wewere just open books, as it were
, and those things we would justask, you know, not to say, you
know, you don't roughshod things, you sort of you ask it with

(01:14:50):
care and curiosity and whatever,but we were both open to
actually talking about it.
To me, I wanted to getknowledge, read the books,
listen to podcasts, you know,such as such as your podcast at
that time.
You know any any podcast thatwould give me sort of stuff and
guidance around sort of griefwith parenting and stuff like
that.
I I sort of you know wasgrabbing at the time.

(01:15:11):
That's I.
I know Jeanette Koncikowski whoyou interviewed oh, yes, yeah
yeah, we're friends because Iwas one of the people that she
she interviewed for for her bookand you know it was stuff like
that sort of right make thoseconnections and that's that's
what helped me and supported me,as well as and obviously also
being able to then give back.
Part of my identity was being ahelper.

(01:15:33):
That's always been part of myidentity, whether it's been as
helper, as a spouse, you know,doing certain things, or whether
it's in in work or whatever,but you know.
So, for me, being able to helpin my grief, give that sort of
knowledge, expertise, as it were, to share that with people, so
that was helpful to me as wellas then having just that

(01:15:53):
emotional space to talk aboutstuff.
That's also an element of whatsort of Karen and I sort of give
each other.
We have that knowledge, thatsort of exchange of knowledge,
but we also have that emotionalspace that we can talk about the
things that are bothering us,you know, with our grief yeah
well, thank you very much foryour time today.

Claire (01:16:11):
I know this will help a lot of people moving forwards
and it's just interesting tojust know you know what happens
to all that love.
Unless you've been through it,it's very hard to even imagine
where it kind of goes.
For my last question, I'mbuilding my metaphorical tool
shed for tools to help peopleget through grief.
So if love was a tool thateither helps or hinders through
grief or I don't know, what kindof tool do you think love would

(01:16:32):
be?

David (01:16:42):
I've been thinking about this and thinking about this and
it's like, ok, I'm going to go,for this is probably going to
seem a bit weird, but one ofthose heated propagators.
The reason for picking that isbecause it sort of ties in with
some of the stuff that I'vetalked about now.
So you know, heated propagators, where you're putting that sort
of seedlings in, you know, andsort of warming them, growing
and nurturing them.
I guess for me that sort ofgrew around grief aspect, you
know, and sort of grief, uh, youknow, sort of the, the love
that is there as being part ofthat grief.
It ties in with that sort ofgrowth aspect.

(01:17:05):
It's also, I guess, with thecontinuing bonds about that
nurturing the, the bond that youhave with someone.
So there's the idea of sort ofyou know, having to sort of give
us some care and attention tothose, those seedlings, those
that are being nurtured there,and I guess you know how roots
are sort of formed out in thatand I guess how you know the
roots, sort of thecharacteristics of people and

(01:17:27):
and that relationship you haveyou know we all intertwine um
with each other ties in withthat as well and I suppose also
for me there's that love thatcomes in community and I guess
the fact that there may be otherdifferent plants within that
sort of you know propagator,different elements of community,
but we're all in one heatedpropagator, as it were.

Claire (01:17:48):
A heated propagator that's new and sounds like a
very fancy little addition to myshed.
I also love the idea of us allbeing in one, together in a safe
, warm space that we share todevelop roots before we're taken
out and planted elsewhere tobloom.
Thank you so much for sharingyour experiences with us, david.
David has shared some linkswith me.
If you want to know more aboutthe models that he spoke about,

(01:18:09):
I'll put a link to those in theshow notes, along with the
instagram account that he'sstarting to use to help educate
people around grief, and@grievingat the speed of life.
If you want to find out moreabout me and chris and our
experience with infertility andchildlessness or loss, or the
podcast, or Herman's and lotsmore, pop over to www.
the silentwh y.
com.
This podcast is ad free thanksto the generous support of some

(01:18:31):
wonderful people who help keepit running.
If you'd like to chip in, youcan head to www.
buymeacoffee.
com/t he silentwhy and buy me afancy tea or two as a one-off
treat, or you can even supportthe podcast monthly.
Thanks for listening to TheSilent Why.
If you've got a subject you'dlike me to chat to an expert on,
please get in touch via oursocial media or the website or
via the thesilentwhy@ gmail.

(01:18:53):
com, and let's chat.

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