March 31, 2025 • 52 mins
#125. What impact can possessions have on grief? The lack of them, the loss of them, too many of them etc.
This is The Silent Why, a podcast on a mission to open up conversations around grief, exploring asking if hope can be found in 101 different types of permanent loss.
Loss #61 of 101: Loss of possessions
In this episode we welcome Naomi Westerman, a playwright, screenwriter, and author from South East London. Naomi's experienced profound loss from a young age, and with that, the difficult task of sorting through her loved ones’ possessions.
Naomi shares about the emotional weight of dealing with a parent's belongings after they die, the unexpected and sometimes painful discoveries made during this process, and how our personal experiences, relationships, and circumstances shape the way we interact with these items.
She also talks openly about her two-year journey to sort through her mum’s house and the surprising childhood object she still treasures, and the special jumper she chose for her dad’s burial.
Naomi has also wrestled with the difficult "why" questions that can arise in grief – Why me? Why did this happen? So, she shares with us what has helped her find healing, connection, and hope.
To find out more about Naomi and her book, Happy Death Club, visit:
http://www.naomiwesterman.com
http://www.happydeathclub.org
http://www.instagram.com/naomi_writes_death
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Naomi Westerman (00:02):
Hi, my name is Naomi and I am on the podcast
today talking about the loss ofpossessions resulting from the
loss of parents.
Claire Sandys (00:12):
Welcome to The Silent Why, a podcast on a
mission to uncover 101 differenttypes of loss through the
voices of those that have livedthem.
Chris Sandys (00:19):
I'm Claire and I'm Chris and we're into a new
batch of 10 losses.
This is loss 61 of 101.
And today we're exploring adeeply personal and often
overlooked aspect of grief theloss of possessions.
Claire Sandys (00:32):
And our guest is Naomi Westerman, a playwright,
screenwriter and author fromSouth East London.
And Naomi has faced immenseloss from a young age.
Naomi Westerman (00:40):
I come from a very, very small family.
Originally, my family that Iwas brought up with was pretty
much just my mum, my dad, mygrandmother and my aunt.
So my grandmother died when Iwas probably around 21 or 22.
My aunt died around the sametime, kind of early 20s, and
then, when I was kind of in myearly 30s, I lost both my
(01:04):
parents within a few years ofeach other Very, very suddenly,
and that was quite traumatic.
Claire Sandys (01:11):
While grieving the loss of her loved ones,
naomi faced another unexpectedchallenge the emotional way of
sorting through theirpossessions, stumbling across
things she wished she hadn't andbeing unable to find the
cherished items that she wanted.
Chris Sandys (01:22):
She explores how our experiences with a loved
one's belongings after theirdeath can differ, greatly
influenced by who they were, ourown circumstances, the items
themselves and even factors liketime and access.
Naomi Westerman (01:34):
My first loss was my grandmother, and because
my grandmother was living incouncil accommodation, all of my
grandmother's possessions werelost just because we weren't
given enough time to actuallysort through her things.
So that was quite sad.
Then when my dad died, he hadvery minimal possessions so like
emotionally, the process ofclearing the house was very,
very easy.
And then when my mother died,there were two things that were
(01:56):
really difficult.
The first is that herex-boyfriend squatted in her
house and then when he did leavehe stole a lot of possessions.
And then my mom was kind of ahoarder, so my mum had never
thrown anything away, kind of in50 years.
Claire Sandys (02:09):
Naomi shares what it was like during the two
years of sorting the horriblemess left in her mum's house.
Also, the surprising childhooditem that she found that she
still clings to today andcherished memories, such as the
special jumper she chose to buryher dad in.
Chris Sandys (02:22):
She also reflects on the emotions tied to the
objects left behind, thedifficult why?
Questions, questions like whyme and why did this happen.
But through it all, naomi hasfound a sense of peace and
through her writing she'sdiscovered connection, hope and
healing.
Naomi Westerman (02:36):
Through my process of writing my book,
writing my plays, people whohave wanted to hear what I have
to say, wanted to connect, and Ithink that more than anything,
gives me hope the knowledge that, like other people, are also
going through the same thing andthey're also searching for hope
or searching for connection.
And people who've been throughyou know way worse things than
(02:57):
me and they still have hope.
So I think that's a reallybeautiful thing to keep hold of.
Chris Sandys (03:01):
So let's jump in.
We began this conversation, asusual, by asking Naomi to
introduce herself.
Naomi Westerman (03:07):
Yeah, hi, my name is Naomi Westerman.
I am a playwright andscreenwriter and I am the author
of Happy Death Club, an essaycollection exploring death and
grief in different cultures.
I live in London.
I live in Greenwichwich insoutheast London.
I am in my office, surroundedby all my books and my theatre
(03:29):
posters, and at the moment I amin pre-production for a play
that is going to be opening inApril.
So we are right in the middleof doing lots and lots of prep
and publicity and variousdifferent things before we start
rehearsals in a few weeks.
So this is not really a verytypical week.
Uh, a typical week is justsitting and drinking lots and
(03:53):
lots of coffee and trying towrite and occasionally, maybe
doing a little bit of writing,maybe sometimes that sounds very
exciting.
Claire Sandys (04:01):
We haven't had many guests with an intro like
that, and I'm loving the uh.
Naomi Westerman (04:09):
The fact it looks like you have a cocktail
lounge to the right or leftaccording to your poster behind
you, held in Waterloo for many,many years, was wonderful,
launched the careers of manyplaywrights and theatre makers.
Sadly, they lost funding andhad to close, so they sold all
their old props.
(04:29):
So I bought this sign in theirsale.
So this used to be above, likea bar in a fringe theatre venue
underneath Waterloo station.
Claire Sandys (04:38):
Wow, that's really cool and that was on my
wall.
Chris Sandys (04:40):
I know yeah great, I must say.
With regards to as soon as youmentioned your book, it makes me
think.
I must ask, because when youtell people you've written a
book, they're probably reallyintrigued.
In the same way, when we talkabout oh Chris, you've got a
podcast, tell me about your book, what's it called?
Naomi Westerman (04:53):
So when you tell someone about your book,
like we tell someone about ourpodcast, how would you summarise
the mixture of reactions youget when you say, oh, it's
called happy death club?
There's pretty much just one,and it is with very, very few
exceptions my dog, dad,grandmother, friend from school,
(05:14):
mom, hamster died.
Every pretty much 99% of thetime, people's immediate
response is just to tell youtheir death story, tell you
their story about either thefirst time they experienced
death or the most recent timethey experienced a death or the
most significant grief theyexperienced.
And I'm aware that it's a waythat we show empathy by.
(05:35):
You know we try to find thingsin our own lives to connect to,
but it really makes you realizehow many people have experienced
loss and don't feel that theycan talk about it.
And it takes very, very littleurging for people to start
talking about the losses thatthey've experienced, because
maybe they don't haveopportunities to do that or
maybe they've never had theopportunity to do it before.
(05:56):
And it is really.
It's amazing.
It's a lot of weight on myshoulders sometimes, but it is
quite humbling to to be therecipient of all of that from
people.
Claire Sandys (06:08):
Yeah, some people we talk to, they naturally
gravitate towards loss and griefand those sorts of subjects
anyway, do you find that comesinto other aspects of your
writing when you're doing playsand things as well to a degree?
Naomi Westerman (06:19):
yes, ironically , the play that I'm about to
start rehearsals for is aboutdogging.
So, no, so, no, no.
Yeah, it's a comedy, it's aromantic comedy, it's very
carry-on style.
Chris Sandys (06:37):
If you don't know what dogging is, sort of say,
google it.
Claire Sandys (06:40):
I don't know about that.
Anyway, got a bit off topicthere.
So yeah, loss and grief,obviously that's why we're here.
So got a bit off topic there.
So yeah, loss and grief,obviously that's why we're here.
So just share a little bitabout your experience of loss
and grief in your life and sortof where you're coming from with
what you've been through.
Naomi Westerman (06:54):
So I come from a very, very small family.
Originally, my family that Iwas brought up with was pretty
much just my mum, my dad, mygrandmother and my aunt.
So my grandmother died when Iwas probably around 21 or 22.
My aunt died around the sametime, kind of early 20s.
You know, I had sort of likeyou know, like I don't know
(07:15):
great aunts and people like thatwho died, I think when I was a
very young child.
That I don't really remember,but I think my grandmother, my
aunt, dying sort of within a fewyears of each other when I was
in my early 20s, was my firstexperience of significant loss.
And then when I was kind of inmy early 30s, I lost both my
parents within a few years ofeach other, which is very weird
(07:37):
to be.
You know, does the word orphaneven apply if you're an adult?
I think it does, but I'm notsure.
So that was really my majorexperience of grief and loss was
losing my parents, and both myparents died very, very suddenly
without sort of being unwell oranything like that, and that
was quite traumatic anddefinitely sent me down a whole
(08:00):
pathway of trying to figure outhow to cope with my grief, how
to cope with being the onlyperson in my peer circle that
had lost both my parents, noneof my friends who my age had
even lost one parent at thatpoint.
I'm now, quite a few years on,seeing this through in my
friends, helping my friendsthrough the process of having
(08:20):
parents who are very unwell,having parents who probably
don't have very many years left,and I was kind of the canary in
the coal mine for that reallyhorrible thing that most people
will go through in their lives.
And then my background is thatI was an anthropologist, so I
was studying death rituals andthat was something that I was
doing before I suffered majorbereavement in my own life and
(08:42):
that was something that provedextremely useful for me in terms
of figuring out I don't know ifI would say how to process my
grief, but figuring out the factthat there is no right or wrong
way to process grief, I guess.
Claire Sandys (08:54):
Yeah, so how did you get through that?
Because unless you have peoplearound you that can sort of help
and guide you, especially atthat age, that can be incredibly
frightening and lonely.
It was extremely lonely.
Naomi Westerman (09:03):
I was extremely lucky.
Something extraordinaryhappened to me.
A very short amount of timeafter my mum was killed, which
was literally only a few weeksafter this happened, I had a
voicemail asking me to co-writea play for a project that was an
(09:25):
experiment in collaborativeplaywriting.
Collaborative theater that wasbe uh, had been put together by
a playwright and screenwriternamed james graham who is, I
think, quite well known, or he's, you know, very well known if
you follow theater.
He wrote uh, sherwood, the bband 10,000 other TV shows.
(09:47):
He decided to put together thisproject where he would bring
eight emerging kind of earlycareer playwrights together to
co-write a play together.
So I was asked to join thisproject.
I was chosen to join thisproject only a few weeks after
my mum had died.
Never occurred to me to not sayyes, and some people were
(10:07):
surprised at that.
Some people were like, whydidn't you take more time off
work and it just it would neveroccur to me to do that.
And also, I mean, I do considermy work to be work, but it's
not the same as, like I don'tknow, going to work in like a
factory or, you know, an officejob that you hate, you know.
I think creative engagement is,or can be, incredibly healing.
So very, very, very shortlyafter this happened, I kind of
(10:30):
found myself in a writer's roomand then obviously going into
rehearsals with all of theseother wonderful, wonderful
playwrights wonderful, you know.
Actors spending, you know,every day in the theatre
spending, you know, every day inthe theater, spending every day
kind of being able to kind ofplay in a creation of our joint
(10:50):
imaginations.
And the process of makingtheater is not always easy.
Sometimes there's a lot ofconflict, sometimes there's a
lot of big egos, but this was abeautiful experience.
You know it's such a cliche tosay we were like a family, but
we really were.
It was just the most amazing,beautiful thing.
And I think without that I haveno idea how I would have
survived, because those firstfew months of grief was so sharp
(11:12):
and, I think, just being ableto kind of shut the door on that
and go somewhere where I justfelt really supported but also
just didn't have to be definedby this person who just had this
terrible thing happen and findways to maybe process it in a
way that was verynon-confrontational.
You know, I could write aboutwhat I wanted and I could touch
(11:32):
on certain things withoutfeeling pressure to really talk
about death and grief very, verydirectly, because I wasn't
ready to do that then.
Chris Sandys (11:39):
Did your dad die first?
You said they're a few yearsapart.
Naomi Westerman (11:42):
Yeah, my dad died first, um, so my dad
basically dropped dead of likean aneurysm, having been
basically healthy.
So that was very shocking, andsomething that I talk about in
my book is the idea of like agood death versus like a very
difficult death.
I think my dad had a good deathbecause he wasn't sick, he
wasn't in pain, he just went towork, came home, sat in his
(12:07):
armchair and just dropped it,literally after having done like
a full day work, which I thinkis, you know, that's, that's bad
.
You don't want to die afterhaving done a full day work.
But he loved work, um, and heloved his job.
So I think that was okay.
He was very happy with thethings that he accomplished in
life.
He was a very well-organizedtype, a person whose life was
(12:32):
very well organized and hisdeath was very well organized.
You know, I didn't have a lotof difficult things to kind of
take care of because everythinghad been organized.
So kind of going through thatprocess of my dad's death was
very sad, but it wasn'ttraumatic, um, and it sort of
gave me the training, I guess,to be able to do my mum's death,
which was a lot more chaoticand a lot more messy, both
(12:54):
practically and emotionally.
So I in a weird way I'm glad ithappened that way around- you
said because it's a familiarstory to you.
Chris Sandys (13:01):
But you said your mum was killed.
Naomi Westerman (13:02):
Yeah, it's a very, very difficult story.
My mum was in an abusiverelationship.
I don't know what happened thenight she was killed, but she
was in an abusive relationshipand she just ended an abusive
relationship and was in theprocess of trying to evict her
ex-boyfriend from her house.
I have heard many conflictingaccounts of what happened that
night.
I've heard accounts of whathappened that night.
(13:24):
I've heard accounts of whathappened that night that I know
not to be true.
I mean, it's not anything thatwould be prosecutable.
I don't really know.
I don't really know, but I feelemotionally.
I feel that she would be aliveif it wasn't for this person.
(13:44):
But I'm also aware of not youknow my emotional response in
terms of, you know, blame, Iguess, is.
You know we're not in a courtof law.
You know I want to be reallycareful not to libel anybody.
I guess slander anybody whohasn't been convicted of a crime
, crime, because some thingsaren't necessarily prosecutable.
(14:06):
But it's really difficult.
Claire Sandys (14:08):
So you wanted to come on so we could talk about
the loss of possessions, whichis a really interesting.
Take on what happens, becausenot everyone would be aware that
possessions can have such animpact.
You don't really think aboutpossessions when you think about
death.
You think about the personyou've lost and if you haven't
been through it yourself, thereare many ways that possessions
can be helpful.
Hindering can go either way.
(14:28):
Um, so tell us a little bitabout how that links to the
people you've lost and and whyit was such like a big thing for
you to go through with thepossessions yeah, so I think
it's almost like a three-partstory.
Naomi Westerman (14:39):
My my first loss that I remember
experiencing was my grandmother,and because my grandmother was
living in council accommodation,like sort of like you know,
sheltered accommodation for forOAPs, we had a very, very tiny
amount of time to clear out herhouse before the council or the
you know water supportaccommodation, whatever it is
needed to take it back, and mygrandmother lived in Eastbourne.
(15:01):
So there was just no time tokind of sort through her things
and make the decision what tokeep and what to not keep.
My mother and I just had tokind of go to my grandmother's
flat and just hire a skip andjust chuck everything in a skip,
because we just had no time.
So, apart from like a fewthings that my mum was able to
put in the car, all of mygrandmother's possessions were
(15:22):
lost just because we weren'tgiven enough time to actually
sort through her things.
So that was quite sad.
Then, when my dad died, my dad,like I say, was very, very type
A, one of those incredibly kindof well-organized type of people
.
He had very minimal possessions.
I mean, he had possessions, butjust not.
He wasn't really someone whokept a lot of kind of emotional
(15:42):
stuff.
You mean he had possessions,but just not.
He wasn't really someone whokept a lot of kind of emotional
stuff.
You know he was kind of theopposite of a hoarder.
The process of cleaning hishouse was very, very, very easy.
You know, I had someone comealong and kind of collect all of
his books.
I took all of his clothes whichwere just sort of like very
basic set of like you knowMott's, andencer's kind of suits
and jumpers to a charity shopand he didn't really have
(16:07):
anything beyond that, like hedidn't really have a lot of
personal belongings.
Uh, I took a couple of verysmall things but he didn't
really, he didn't really havelike the detritus you would
expect from a life that was thatlong.
And I wasn't really kind ofemotionally weighted to like, oh
, you know, a suit that hebought in Marks and Spencer's
last year.
You know, like it wasn't reallylike anything.
(16:27):
So like emotionally, theprocess of clearing the house
was very, very easy.
But I do also look back and gooh, maybe I do wish that I kept
some stuff, because I don'treally have very much to
remember him by.
And then, when my mother died,there were two things that were
really difficult.
The first is that herex-boyfriend squatted in her
house for about eight monthsafter she died and had to kind
(16:52):
of go through a whole process toget him out of the house.
So that was really difficult.
And then when he did leave, hestole a lot of things.
He stole a lot of possessions.
He stole, you know, things thathad been birthday presents from
my dad to my mom, things thathave been presents from me to my
mom.
Lots and lots of things, lotsof things from my childhood that
(17:12):
I knew that my mom had instorage when I got to the house
just weren't there.
I don't know necessarily whathappened to them if my mom would
chuck them away at some point,if he'd chuck them them away.
But there were definitelyspecific things that I know that
he took a van.
He turned up, sort of had amate turn up with like a van and
filled a van with things.
So that was obviously very,very upsetting.
(17:34):
And then my mum was kind of ahoarder, so my mum had never
thrown anything away, kind of in50 years.
Um, so the sheer scale of things, plus the fact that the house
was just not in a good physicalcondition, you know it had real
problems with kind of mold andit had not been maintained in
like a good condition at all.
(17:54):
Like the floors were rottingaway, you know, the wallpaper
was rotting away, the bathroomwas not functional, the kitchen
you couldn't even go into.
It was in a really really badstate.
And then, on top of you know,my mum unfortunately, you know
had mental health problems, soit wasn't she wasn't able to
maintain her house in a goodcondition.
And then on top of that, tohave this squatter in the house
(18:15):
for like eight months, where hebasically, you know, didn't
clean for eight months he had adog that was kind of running
around kind of everywhere.
It was really really really ina terrible state.
So it wasn't just the hoarder,it was the fact that it was
hoarding plus just dirt and justlike really entrenched kind of
grime and kind of mold.
So I had to throw away a lot ofthings because they just were
(18:37):
not things that I could havetouched or had in my house.
There were lots and lots ofthings that I did manage to save
, but it was still very, verydifficult because it was a
question of just having to justget rid of just huge amounts of
stuff.
And then COVID happened andobviously I wasn't able to get
to the house for a long time andagain, my mum lived quite a
(18:58):
long distance from me.
I don't drive, so it was just aquestion of like literally
having to kind of get on a trainevery single Sunday, go to my
mum's house, make a tiny dent init, and it took several years
for me to be able to clear herwhole entire house and it was
just incredibly, incrediblytraumatic, like I would
physically have to go and sit inthe park behind my mum's house
(19:19):
even in the middle of of winterbecause I physically could not
be in that house anymore.
It felt like a loss every singleday, either because I would not
find things that I'd expectedto find, or I would find
something and it would be reallyreally damaged, or I would find
something and it would beupsetting and it just kind of
felt like, yeah, the loss of,like my childhood in a way, you
(19:42):
know, because I was sort ofexpecting to have lots of things
from my childhood and therewere lots of things I was
expecting to find that I didn'tfind, lots of things that were
just really really badly damaged.
Yeah, so it just it just kindof felt like a secondary loss of
the possessions and my ownsense of like.
Chris Sandys (19:59):
You know, by allowing this squatter to be in
the house for eight months andkind of trash everything and
steal everything, you know thatI'd almost failed my mother in
not being able to preserve herlegacy, I guess, so that was
quite upsetting we've talked onthe podcast before about, uh, us
dropping and breakingaccidentally a hard drive full
(20:19):
of photos that we they were thebackup at one stage and then we
deleted the originals fromcomputer or laptop and then
accidentally broke this harddrive and lost a good number of
years worth of photos and videosfrom some fairly big, momentous
life things and um, on the onehand it feels like, oh, it's a
small thing, but the amount oftimes that we are sort of
(20:41):
heading our hearts go to, oh, ifonly you know there was that.
Oh, do you remember that timewhen we're like, oh, yeah, we
can't go and find the imagesfrom that because that was, you
know, that trip, that experience, that was all in the photos
that we lost.
Are there any examples of ofitems or things that you know
your head, your heart would goto?
The most I wish I had that.
Uh, it just would illustratewhat you're talking about.
Naomi Westerman (21:02):
I'm not a hoarder, but I'm a digital
hoarder.
I kind of upload like everyphoto to like five different
places.
Yeah, no, I think that Iabsolutely understand.
That must be absolutelydevastating.
I would be really upset.
Do you know what sylvanianfamilies are?
Yeah, I had a friend thatcollected them all.
Yeah, so I was obsessed withsylvanian families when I was a
kid and I feel like the reasonI'm a writer is because of
(21:25):
Sylvanian families, because Ijust used to sit surrounded by
my like huge Sylvanian familyvillage when I was a kid and
just like make up stories andhave this like epic, like
ongoing soap opera around theselittle figures.
And I left home very youngbecause a lot of very traumatic
things happened to me when I wasin my sort of early teens and I
had to leave kind of all almostall of my possessions behind,
(21:49):
and these Sylvanian familieswere the one thing where I said
to my mum like please don'tthrow them away, please just put
them in a box, just put themaway somewhere, you know.
And she was like, yeah, yeah,you know, they're in a box,
they're in the garage, they'rein a crate, it's fine.
And I kind of did several timesin the course of her lifetime,
kind of say you know, can I cometo your house and like help you
(22:12):
clean out the garage and likeget you know some of my things
that you've been, you know,storing for me from childhood?
And I kind of, you know, it wasmy sylvanian families that I
kind of wanted and she wouldalways say, oh, no, no, no, no,
because it's going to be like ahuge job and it's a nightmare
and like it was just it was very, very difficult for me to go to
her house as well because shehad this abusive boyfriend and
stuff.
(22:32):
So that was kind of the onething that I was really really
wanting to have.
And the irony is I did find kindof random, odd things from my
childhood, you know, that Ididn't really care about, but
this one crate wasn't there.
So that was the one thing ofgoing like where is it?
Has it been thrown away?
(22:53):
Yeah, I don't know, that wasthe one thing that really, you
know that was quite upsetting tome.
Claire Sandys (22:58):
Yeah, it's heartbreaking to think you went
through all that time, all thoseyears, clearing that house and
you didn't find the things thatreally should have been the
reward for you doing all thatwork.
You should have come away fromthat job.
Normally people would come awayfrom a job like that and think,
ah well, at least I've gotthese things that I found that I
was looking for.
So to do all that and not notcome up with something, and I'm
just I'm really.
I mean, there's so many thingsgoing through my mind now about
(23:20):
possessions, because you talkabout your dad and there's
almost no possessions, and thenyour mom there's almost too many
possessions, but they're notthe ones you want.
So I'm thinking of all thedifferent scenarios people must
be in and the amount of timeslike when someone dies, you
might get given a, the weddingring or something seems
significant.
You're like, oh, I'll have thisfrom that person, but actually
over the years it might be someplastic owl that they had that
(23:41):
you referred to the most, andsometimes you think you're
taking the thing that will meanthe most to you, but sometimes
the connection is actuallysomething that's seemingly
smaller.
So I'm guessing there must belots of things like that that
people have to struggle throughas well.
So there's so many dimensionsto it.
It's really got me thinkingabout possessions, no massively.
Naomi Westerman (23:59):
And one thing I was I was in my mum's loft and
just kind of throwing kind ofboxes down at random and I
opened one box and I have noidea, like just hoarderville, I
have no idea, but there was akettle, a broken electric kettle
, probably circa like late 80s,you know, when they used to have
(24:22):
like the big round kettles withlike the thing we, yeah, and
like for some reason, likenobody has round electric
kettles anymore, we have likethe tall ones now with I don't
know when that happened.
Um, and it's like I wish Icould describe it to you because
I wish I could show you a photoof it, because it was so 80s
looking.
It was like beige and it hadlike a pattern on it that was
(24:43):
like brown and orange kind offlowers like very, like, very
70s in the way that like 70sdecor continued into the 80s.
Anyway, it was broken.
I have no idea why it was upthere, because it clearly been
up there since the 80s and ithad a bright orange towel
wrapped around it and Iunwrapped it and it was my old
(25:04):
swimming towel that I used totake to swimming lessons when I
was in like primary school and Iwas really super obsessed with
swimming, like I was.
I've always been obsessed withswimming my whole life.
So I had this orange towel thathad been shoved in a box for
kind of you know decades, tookit home with me, put it in the
washing machine and it was likecompletely mildewed, it was just
awful.
(25:24):
Put it in the washing machine,came out good as new and then I
looked at it and it actually hada name.
It had my name embroidered onit, when my mum had obviously
embroidered my name on it so Icould take it to school swimming
lessons.
And that is my swimming towelright now I actively use when I
go swimming, like twice a week,and it's got my little name on
it and people like, oh, youembroidered your name on your
(25:46):
swimming towel even thoughyou're on top.
Chris Sandys (25:48):
That's cute oh, when you're swimming, what you
do with the kettle?
Does that just stay in thechanging?
Naomi Westerman (25:54):
well, you know it's come out before.
Like you know, you always wantlike a cuppa of you want some
hot chocolate, yeah can I plugthis in somewhere?
Claire Sandys (26:01):
brilliant, you're with all the people charging
their phones.
You've just got your kettleplugged in my 80s castle.
Naomi Westerman (26:07):
Yeah, yeah amazing.
Claire Sandys (26:10):
Yeah, oh, it's really.
It's so interesting and I justI could already feel, you know,
that people who are listeningwill be identifying with it in
very different ways that oneitem must be more significant
because it is on its own.
Chris Sandys (26:22):
It's not one of many, it's just.
You know, I'm clinging to this.
One thing I managed to rescueyeah, no, it is.
Naomi Westerman (26:29):
It is, and I do look at it because you know
every day that I use it it getsa little bit more tattered, the
holes get a little bit biggerand I do wonder is there going
to come a point where I stopusing it?
And I really don't want to.
I feel like I'm going to belike 90 with this like little
shriveled, tiny bit of likebright orange cloth.
Claire Sandys (26:45):
Just be like oh, it's as precious to me how do
you feel like the, the loss ofpossessions and the loss of a
person?
How do they compare?
If they do grief wise, are theyconnected?
Is it all mixed in and thepossessions make it easier or
harder for the grief as a whole,or do you think it's like
almost a separate grievingprocess for the person and the
possessions?
Naomi Westerman (27:06):
I kind of feel like they're connected in that I
feel like possessions arealmost like a way that you can
kind of project your grief forthe person onto something that's
maybe a little bit easier todeal with.
You know, like it is easier togrieve the loss of possessions
than it is to grieve the loss ofa person, but then, on the
other hand, the loss ofpossession specifically related
(27:27):
to my childhood, I think, in away are harder because that's
linked with a lot of thingsaround the loss of my childhood
generally and things.
You know, I had to grow up andbe an adult very, very quickly
and I did lose a lot of mychildhood as a result.
And then that links in with alot of I don't know like anger
that I had of my mum making badchoices, but then also a lot of
(27:50):
guilt for maybe not doing enoughto recognise that she was going
through a hard time.
So I guess it's just objectskind of being a representation
of a lot of very, very complexemotions that you have about a
lot of different things.
Claire Sandys (28:03):
It's made me think this week because, just by
pure coincidence, we're doingthis interview this week and
everything's happening in LAwith the fires, yeah yeah, yeah,
yeah, so we've been discussinglike.
Well, this is interestingbecause this is a loss of
possessions without the loss ofa person.
Do you have any idea of whatthat would sort of feel like and
how different that might be ifyou lose the possessions but not
the person themselves?
Naomi Westerman (28:22):
I actually know two people One of them is not
someone that I kind of know verywell, someone that I do know,
and then an actor who was nearlygoing to be in my play but then
it didn't work out who actuallyhad experienced the loss of all
of their possessions through ahouse fire, and I cannot imagine
the trauma of that.
I think that must be absolutelydevastating, you know, because
(28:43):
it's like a loss of identity.
You know, you lose your wholeentire history.
I know there are people who arevery zen about having, like you
know, very few possessions.
I can't imagine being that kindof person.
I'm someone who has alwaystaken huge comfort in my
possessions and really rootedmyself, you know, in my
possessions and like and I havelots and lots of possessions
that I've had since I was ateenager, that I've kind of
(29:05):
carted around with me my wholelife.
Yeah, I mean it's justabsolutely devastating, isn't it
?
You're losing your whole past.
You know your childhood.
You know your children'schildhoods.
Chris Sandys (29:18):
if you have children, it's just there's a
lot of weight in possessionsyeah, and now I'm thinking there
is a difference in that itfeels easy to accept something
that's an accident or that'snatural.
You know it's out of control,you couldn't have any part of it
.
But again to come back to yourexperience, there are different
emotions you've already talkedabout.
(29:39):
You know the anger towards yourmum and making bad choices, the
loss of the possessions.
For you is linked with maybeunwelcome or unwanted emotions
and feelings, because whensomebody's died, generally,
generally we look back andremember all the best bits, but
you keep having reminders of thethings, maybe of your family,
that are like I'm just remindedabout the bad bits and not able
(30:00):
to just forget that because ofthis, how do you detach the
anger Maybe you don't theresentment not having these
possessions from the aspectswhen your mum was alive,
certainly with the ex-partnerabusive relationship.
How do you separate them?
Naomi Westerman (30:17):
I'm not sure that I can.
I I really struggle with that.
I think one thing that hasstruck me really clearly in all
of the experiences of loss thatI've had is that I think when
someone is alive, you only havea relationship with the person
they are right now, and thenwhen they die, it's almost like
that changes and you suddenlyhave a retroactive relationship
with the person that they werethroughout the whole entirety of
(30:40):
the time.
You knew them and, like my dadand I, were on really, really
great terms.
When he died, we didn't haveany kind of unresolved stuff and
so it was very easy for me togrieve him.
But when my mum died, weweren't necessarily on amazing
terms.
But then, after she died, Ifound myself really able to live
in my memories of her a lotmore and kind of remember times
(31:02):
when we were on better terms, orremember times from my very
young childhood when she was,you know, a very, very loving
mom, very invested, able to, Iguess, cope with problems in
life much, much more easily.
And I guess it sort of feelslike for a really, really long
time I just had one version ofmy mum in my head, which is the
mum that I was engaging with ornot engaging with at that moment
(31:23):
.
And now it feels like there's50 different versions of my mum
in my head.
Some of them aren't great butsome of them are, you know, are
really great.
So it just feels like I don'tknow.
It's almost like in her dying.
I've been given back the wholeentirety of her and I can try to
see what kind of person she wasbefore I was born, you know,
(31:44):
and have access to that, and tokind of look at her that way,
without being confronted by thereality of the person standing
in front of me.
Claire Sandys (31:52):
One of the things I was thinking that you would
sort of process some of thisstuff through are the death
rituals you know you know arereally important and stuff, and
I know that some of those wereinterrupted for you because you
didn't have things like yourmum's clothes.
How did that affect you?
Naomi Westerman (32:05):
Um, uh, repression, I guess I I know
that, like when my dad died, um,his will said please bury my
body, and he was very clear thatthat was his wish.
And it meant a lot to me to beable to go to his house, go
through his wardrobe and pick areally really nice outfit for
(32:25):
him.
And my dad wasn't reallysomeone who was into fashion.
You know, he wore quiteordinary, you know sort of
business type clothes, but youknow like he quite liked to wear
colour.
So I buried him in like areally really nice, like pink
cashmere sweater that I found inhis cupboard, because he was
just, you know, the kind of manwho had no problem wearing like
a pink sweater, and it meant alot to me to be able to do that.
(32:48):
And then my mum was was cremated, which was something that she
said she would be fine with, andshe had to be cremated just
wearing like I don't know, Iguess, hospital gown.
They put her in when she gotadmitted, I guess I don't know,
I don't actually know what shewas cremated in.
I mean, I saw her body but itwas literally in a body bag.
(33:09):
I don't know Whatever they putbodies in in the morgue, I don't
know.
So she was just kind ofcremated, just without anything
really, because I just didn'thave any way to get access to
any of her clothes.
I felt bad for that.
I felt bad that I wasn't ableto perform that act of care for
her.
I felt better about the factshe was being cremated because I
kind of feel like, well, itmatters less in my head, like I
(33:32):
know it's, I know it doesn'tmatter, but in my head it
matters less what you wear, ifyou're going to be cremated,
because the clothes are justgoing to be burned in like two
minutes anyway, than what youwere to be buried in, because
those clothes are gonna, youknow, stick around for a really
long time.
So, yeah, it was upsetting tonot be able to perform that
particular ritual.
Yeah, that was.
That was not great it can bedifficult.
Claire Sandys (33:54):
We've spoken to people in the past about not
really being able to do certainthings.
One of the episodes we did wasa woman whose husband was never
found he died on a mountain andnot being able to have those
rituals.
We hadn't really fully, I don'tthink, before that episode,
thought about how important theyare in saying goodbye and just
feeling like you've done rightby the dead person and you know
following their wishes, if thereare any, or following through
(34:15):
what you want to do, whatever.
So, yeah, it's quite.
It's quite a big area to not beable to follow through on,
especially for someone whostudied them and knows so much
about them exactly, yeah, yeah,I mean it.
Naomi Westerman (34:25):
It's very comforting in a way to think
that my dad is still, you know,in there kind of all snug and
all cuddly in his like littlepink sweater.
You know, that's quite nice,like I don't know if it's like
rotted away, but you know likeit's yeah, I don't know, it's
nice, I don't know, but it's anice image, I don't.
Claire Sandys (34:41):
You mean, I like, I like the idea of that.
Well, and one of the things wetalk to a lot of people about is
um, why the question?
Why do people ask it whenpeople die?
Because you see it portrayed,you'll have seen it on lots of
you know, tv and films orcartoons, and there's this kind
of expression that when peopledie or something bad happens,
there's this big like why?
Or why me, which isn't alwaysthe case.
(35:02):
Not everyone is asking thatquestion, or sometimes they do
for a little while.
Sometimes it plagues them forthe whole of their life.
So how have you had thatquestion come up and how have
you dealt with that?
Because obviously you've lost alot of family members at a
short amount of time, so thatcould be a big why question.
It might not be.
Yeah, what's that been like foryou?
Naomi Westerman (35:18):
oh god, I yeah, I definitely had a lot of that.
Why and why?
Why me?
Why am I always having theseterrible things happen?
I think the why me a lot ofthat has to do with.
It felt like these deaths, andparticularly my mother's death,
(35:38):
played into something that wasmuch, much bigger in terms of
things that I had gone throughwhen I was a teenager in terms
of, you know, losing my home,losing my relationship with my
mother when I was very young,you know, coming back to a
relationship with her later inlife that was very difficult,
and obviously a lot of thingsaround her.
Being in this relationship withthis abusive man.
It just felt like a lot ofreally, really, really terrible
(36:02):
things happened that were allconnected.
But there was also something inmy mother's death that felt
like something coming fullcircle.
I mean, this is something thatI've written about quite a lot.
I wrote a Guardian articleabout it, but basically, my
mum's boyfriend resulted in mebeing homeless when I was a
teenager and then, as an adult,my mum's death was essentially
(36:25):
the means by which I was able tocause him to become homeless
and reclaim my house, I guess.
So there was a very, very weirdpoetic justice or a very weird
sense of something coming fullcircle or being able to reverse
I don't know things that hadhappened decades ago and it kind
(36:48):
of felt very fatalistic to beable to do that.
It felt very, very fatalistic tobe able to have this like very
uncanny, precise symmetry ofbeing able to do to this person
what he'd done to me, and it'shorrendous that my mum had to
die to do that and I wish thatmy mum could have been a
(37:10):
completely different person.
I wish that she could have beena person who could have lived a
happy, long life, and I feel sosad for her that she wasn't
able to do that.
But I I don't think that sheever would have been able to
escape from this relationship orable to escape from her own
personal demons, and I don'tfeel that I ever could have
lived the life that I'm livingnow, particularly as a writer,
(37:34):
particularly as someone who isexpressing myself, while she was
still alive, and I do have someguilt over that, but like I
feel like I've only really beenable to be emotionally free
since she died because I feltlike I had to keep so many
secrets to keep her safe and Idefinitely don't think that I
could have written with a degreeof emotional honesty while she
(37:57):
was still alive.
So it's kind of a reallyhorrible thing because it's like
I absolutely feel like mysuccess, my career, my financial
freedom has come about becauseof her death.
And that doesn't mean that Iwant her dead or that I'm glad
that she's dead.
It's just a really weird thing.
I'm not glad she's dead.
It's just a really weird thing.
(38:18):
I'm not glad she's dead.
But it feels like it's part ofsomething much bigger and it
just feels weirdly fatalisticand it just feels like somehow
I've managed to close a circleand hopefully I can move on in
my life.
And I don't know what happensafter death, but I believe that
there is something after deathand I just hope that.
I hope that my mum is not inpain anymore.
(38:42):
That's all, that's all.
The only way that I can reallychoose to frame it is that she's
not suffering anymore.
Chris Sandys (38:48):
I guess yeah, that taps into, I guess, a big part
of why we're here with the soundthat, why podcast that we?
We want to explore all thesedifferent types of permanent
loss like yes, yes, people, ofcourse, loved ones, bereavements
in that regard, but also things, body parts, careers,
identities, things that we loseand still have to acknowledge
and grieve and move past, butexplore them with hope in mind
(39:11):
that can hope be found, can goodthings come out of all of these
bad things.
So, listening to you talk there, it sounds like you know you're
still on that path of discovery, in a sense, that you're still
actually realizing there areemotions, there are experiences
that you're thankful for thathave happened as they're
happening now.
I mean one of those.
(39:31):
I guess one of the things we'rethinking about.
I'm thinking about is is peacewith losing the things that
you've lost?
Where are you in a sense ofactually having peace or finding
peace with the Sylvanianfamilies are gone.
I can't get them back.
Where are you with peace?
Naomi Westerman (39:48):
Yeah, I feel like I have reached a state of
peace or a state of acceptance.
I think mostly that is justsomething that comes through
time.
I can't tell you how I did it.
I think it's just incrementalday by day.
You just you just learn to livewith things.
I feel like I am in a state ofpeace now very much, which is
just, I think, learning to livein the moment and learning to
(40:12):
open up emotionally to peopleand get support, and I think I
think being able to open upemotionally and gain support
from people has made me lessemotionally dependent on things,
and I think being able to openup emotionally and gain support
from people has made me lessemotionally dependent on things,
and I think that was a reallybig part of the process of
letting go as well.
Claire Sandys (40:27):
What sort of part has hope played for you,
because hope means lots ofdifferent things to different
people.
Has that been something thatyou've had lost?
Naomi Westerman (40:35):
have no, massively, massively.
I mean I've been throughabsolutely horrendous times in
my life.
No, massively, massively.
I mean I've been throughabsolutely horrendous times in
my life, but somehow I alwayshad hope or I had some kind of
belief that things would getbetter or that I would persevere
or that I would endure.
I feel like I have a bigcapacity to endure and sometimes
(40:55):
that's the only thing you canput hope in ultimately is just
your own ability to just keepbreathing through the day.
But I also had a lot of peoplewho are very supportive of me
through these griefs and throughmy process of writing my book,
through my process of writing myplays, people who have wanted
(41:17):
to hear what I have to say,wanted to connect, and I think
that more than anything gives mehope the knowledge that, like
other people are also goingthrough the same thing and
they're also searching for hopeor searching for connection.
And people who've been throughyou know way worse things than
me and they still have hope andthey still have that mindset of
(41:38):
wanting to connect with peoplein a very emotionally kind of
honest way.
So I think that's a reallybeautiful thing to keep hold of.
Claire Sandys (41:45):
Do you find things like we've got a lot of
different people who find thingslike Christmas and New Year and
those sort of seasons quitedifficult because of many
different reasons, but largelybecause if you haven't got
family around you it can bequite hard.
Do you find those kind ofseasons quite difficult or have
you found a way to navigatethose where you feel okay with
them?
Find those kind of seasonsquite?
Naomi Westerman (42:01):
difficult, or have you found a way to navigate
those where you feel okay withthem?
Uh, I have a lot of things thatI, a lot of structures that I
put in place to try to cope.
Uh, it's really really hard.
My birthday is between uh, mybirthday is on the 27th of
December, so that's also reallyterrible.
Yeah, it's really awful.
Um, I'm also Jewish, soChristmas is not necessarily as
(42:23):
meaningful for me or part of myculture I mean, my dad wasn't
Jewish, so it was part of myculture growing up.
I can't take refuge inChristmas as a religious holiday
in the way that some of myfriends can.
Uh, I also don't drive.
I don't know how to drive sothat you wouldn't think that
that would be a thing, but it'sa really big thing because
there's no public transport inEngland on Christmas Day, so you
(42:45):
can't go anywhere.
So I, you know, I just I have tobe really, really, really
vigilant in just stacking myschedule, making sure that
there's lots and lots of thingsreaching out to friends, booking
social activities, but notnecessarily like super
Christmassy social activitiesand I pretty much was busy like
(43:05):
every single day of like thefestive period except Christmas
day itself, and then I was justlike so tired that I was happy
just to kind of eat chocolateand kind of watch TV and go for
a walk and not do anything else.
I would love to be able tocelebrate Christmas more and I I
hope that maybe one day I willbe able to, but at the moment
it's just kind of I don't havethe detachment enough to be able
(43:29):
to go.
Well, it's just a normal day.
I I, some people do I can't, Ijust can't do that.
It is just a question of havingenough distractions and people
around to be able to kind of getthrough it.
Chris Sandys (43:39):
You've referenced having some really good
supporters around you, which isbrilliant for someone who's had
a very small family, becausequite often it's the family that
you turn to siblings andwhatever else, to share the
experiences.
So you've cleared in somethingright to have a good support
network around you.
We've heard about the towel andhow much you're clinging to the
towel, stepping into the future, hoping it clings to the cotton
(44:03):
strands and stays in one piece.
Um, how do you view the future?
Do you view the future?
Do you think about the future?
Do you plan?
What does the future look likefor you?
Naomi Westerman (44:12):
I mean, I think at the moment I'm pretty much
looking at the future in careerterms.
Um, I'm a bit of a workaholic,I think I probably tend to
subsume a lot of stuff into workand ambition and career.
But I mean, I don't know thatthat seems to be working so far.
Maybe that's a horrible copingtechnique, I don't know, I
wouldn't recommend it.
(44:33):
But you know, my career is very, very, very exciting at the
moment and I happen to work in acareer that facilitates lots of
really wonderful things andlots of really wonderful
connections with lots and lotsof people.
You know, I'm not just kind ofin an office, kind of chained to
a computer.
My career has enabled me to goall over the world and meet
amazing people and reallyconnect with people.
(44:55):
So I think that the way thatI'm looking to the future is
mostly in the work that I'mgoing to do and what that's
going to facilitate.
Chris Sandys (45:04):
I guess Well, it's been an absolute pleasure to
chat.
Thank you for sharing what youhave.
We really appreciated that.
It's a really interesting andsomething that we'll continue to
think about because, as you say, with the LA wildfires in, when
you read stuff in the newsabout people that have lost
possessions, then what you'veshared with us is really helpful
.
So thank you for that.
Claire Sandys (45:24):
Well, same in war zones as well, isn't it?
We often think about oh, atleast the people are safe, or
this person lost their life, orthis person survived.
Secondary is the possessionsreally in your mind, because you
think, well, at least the lifeis the important bit.
But actually to think you know,even if you survive, think you
know, even if you survive,you've lost all those things
it's yeah, it's not something wethink about very often, we
should do really, and so manypossessions are attached to
memories aren't they?
Chris Sandys (45:44):
or handed down, um whatever, they have some sort
of sentimental value.
So to wrap things up for us, umwe end with our wonderful
question um that can put you,naomi.
So what's your herman?
Naomi Westerman (45:57):
my herman I've chosen is my pets, and this is
very special to me because Icome from a massive family of
animal lovers.
My parents were both hugeanimal lovers who absolutely
took comfort in their petsthroughout, whatever terrible
things they were going through.
My dad was a cat person and mymum was a dog person uh, I'm
(46:19):
both, I guess, guess but dogswere incredibly important to my
mom.
She had a beautiful dog namedCharlie and then she had a dog
named Laura, and they saved herlife when she was in this
abusive relationship, reallysaved her life with her, one way
of kind of escaping.
So the theme of like animals,being your hermit and being like
your very precious thing youcan latch onto, is something
(46:40):
that I very much grew up with,uh, and I've always had pets.
I've always, you know, believereally strongly in them.
So, yeah, I currently havelittle pet rats and I rescue pet
rats, and something that Ispecifically do is when people
(47:02):
are wanting to stop having ratsand they've just got one rat
left.
Uh, you can't keep them singly.
It's very cruel.
So if someone has one rat leftbecause the other rats have died
and they don't want to get more, because they want to stop
having them, but they can't have.
This one lonely rat, uh, Iessentially have a service where
I will adopt lonely rats whohave been bereaved, you know,
(47:26):
through having their siblingsdie, and I take them in and I,
you know, bring them into myweird little, you know, rat
family.
Chris Sandys (47:34):
So I do have this is going to be the first ever
demonstration of a hermit.
Claire Sandys (47:39):
Yes, we're going to get to see the rats.
Oh look, Are you running?
Oh?
Naomi Westerman (47:43):
wow, what run.
She's just a little bit scared.
Claire Sandys (47:47):
Yes, that's the prettiest rat I've ever seen.
So what would you say?
What do they give you that yourecommend other people consider
pets for?
What aspects do you think aremost important?
I?
Naomi Westerman (47:56):
mean definitely support.
I think two things.
I think physical touch I thinkis so crucial.
And if you've got a whole bunchof stuff going on emotionally,
sometimes you just don't reallywant people around, you don't
want to have to talk.
So I think something that youcan physically touch without the
pressure to like have aconversation or be aware of,
like another person's emotionalneeds, can be just really
(48:19):
beneficial.
And then the second thing Ithink just having another living
creature that you have toprioritize their well-being is
the most important thing,because sometimes grief can make
you very not self-centered butself-focused.
You know you get so wrapped upin your own grief.
It's really easy to kind offorget about the rest of the
world and kind of come from thisperspective of like why me, oh,
(48:42):
I'm a victim, terrible thingshave happened to me, and just
get quite navel gazey and Ithink that's really dangerous.
And I think it not only is kindof dangerous for yourself
emotionally but it is sometimesnot great for people around you.
So I just think the I thinkhaving pets forces you to
de-center yourself and it kindof forces you to be at least a
little bit selfless, because ifyou've got a dog you have to get
(49:05):
up and walk your dog.
You know you can't like go.
Oh, I'm just gonna lie in bedand mope like you have to walk
your dog.
If you've got, you know, rats,you've got to get up and clean
the cage.
So I think anything that justkind of forces you to put
somebody else first, I think isprobably a very healthy thing.
Claire Sandys (49:29):
We do miss our pets, don't we?
Chris Sandys (49:30):
We really do.
Claire Sandys (49:31):
Animals have an incredible way of offering
comfort, especially in grief, asNaomi shared.
They can shift our focus whenwe need it most, and if you
can't have or afford a pet,there are other ways to connect
with animals.
Chris Sandys (49:46):
We love visiting our local wildlife park, though
there's only really one goat Iget to stroke you do really
appreciate that weird goat.
Claire Sandys (49:49):
I do.
This episode is a powerfulreminder of how deeply our
emotions, love and memories canbe tied to possessions,
sometimes bringing comfort,sometimes pain, Whether they
bring warmth or heartache.
Navigating these connectionscan be incredibly challenging.
It's a side of grief worthbearing in mind the next time
you support someone facing aloss.
Chris Sandys (50:07):
If you'd like to find out more about Naomi and
her book Happy Death Club, youcan visit her website, which is
w ww.
naomiwesterman.
com.
You'll find more links in theshow notes for this episode too.
Claire Sandys (50:18):
And if you want to know more about us, why we
started the podcast, our journeywith grief and childlessness,
or even hear the story of allthe photos we lost head over to
www.
thesilentmycom, or find us onsocial media.
Chris Sandys (50:28):
Speaking of possessions, there's one
possession we think everyoneshould have.
Claire Sandys (50:31):
Indeed, Herman.
If you don't know what a Hermanis, where have you been?
It's not just the finalquestion.
We ask our guests about whatthey'd like to pass on to help
others through grief.
It's also the name of our griefcompanion, a little crocheted
friend that I make to helpsupport the podcast.
If you know someone goingthrough a tough time, grieving
in hospital, facing a big lifechange, don't send flowers, send
(50:53):
herman.
He never fails to raise a smileand offers just the right kind
of support when it's needed mostpeople all over the world have
found comfort in their very ownHerman.
Chris Sandys (51:02):
Want to meet him?
Visit www.
thehermancompany.
com to see his little face andgrab yours today.
Claire Sandys (51:07):
We all know someone going through loss, so
why not send them a link to thepodcast to remind them they're
not alone and thank you forlistening?
If you support the podcast inany way, a huge thank you for
that.
You have no idea what anencouragement it is to us.
Chris Sandys (51:20):
And there's one thing you can do, you must do to
support the podcast and that'srate it, review it on your app
your provider your podcastplatform.
Now it makes such a difference.
Now, we're just about done.
We'll leave you with athoughtful reminder from Indian
author Dara Viswani.
A reflection on the rolepossessions play in our lives,
they may hold meaning, butwithout the right state of mind
(51:40):
they can never bring us truehappiness.
Claire Sandys (51:45):
"Happiness, true happiness is an inner quality,
it is a state of mind.
If your mind is at peace, youare happy.
If your mind is at peace butyou have nothing else, you can
be happy.
If you have everything the worldcan give pleasure, possessions,
power but lack peace of mind,you can never be happy.
"
Hi, my name is Naomi and I am on the podcast
today talking about the loss ofpossessions resulting from the
loss of parents.
Claire Sandys (00:12):
Welcome to The Silent Why, a podcast on a
mission to uncover 101 differenttypes of loss through the
voices of those that have livedthem.
Chris Sandys (00:19):
I'm Claire and I'm Chris and we're into a new
batch of 10 losses.
This is loss 61 of 101.
And today we're exploring adeeply personal and often
overlooked aspect of grief theloss of possessions.
Claire Sandys (00:32):
And our guest is Naomi Westerman, a playwright,
screenwriter and author fromSouth East London.
And Naomi has faced immenseloss from a young age.
Naomi Westerman (00:40):
I come from a very, very small family.
Originally, my family that Iwas brought up with was pretty
much just my mum, my dad, mygrandmother and my aunt.
So my grandmother died when Iwas probably around 21 or 22.
My aunt died around the sametime, kind of early 20s, and
then, when I was kind of in myearly 30s, I lost both my
(01:04):
parents within a few years ofeach other Very, very suddenly,
and that was quite traumatic.
Claire Sandys (01:11):
While grieving the loss of her loved ones,
naomi faced another unexpectedchallenge the emotional way of
sorting through theirpossessions, stumbling across
things she wished she hadn't andbeing unable to find the
cherished items that she wanted.
Chris Sandys (01:22):
She explores how our experiences with a loved
one's belongings after theirdeath can differ, greatly
influenced by who they were, ourown circumstances, the items
themselves and even factors liketime and access.
Naomi Westerman (01:34):
My first loss was my grandmother, and because
my grandmother was living incouncil accommodation, all of my
grandmother's possessions werelost just because we weren't
given enough time to actuallysort through her things.
So that was quite sad.
Then when my dad died, he hadvery minimal possessions so like
emotionally, the process ofclearing the house was very,
very easy.
And then when my mother died,there were two things that were
(01:56):
really difficult.
The first is that herex-boyfriend squatted in her
house and then when he did leavehe stole a lot of possessions.
And then my mom was kind of ahoarder, so my mum had never
thrown anything away, kind of in50 years.
Claire Sandys (02:09):
Naomi shares what it was like during the two
years of sorting the horriblemess left in her mum's house.
Also, the surprising childhooditem that she found that she
still clings to today andcherished memories, such as the
special jumper she chose to buryher dad in.
Chris Sandys (02:22):
She also reflects on the emotions tied to the
objects left behind, thedifficult why?
Questions, questions like whyme and why did this happen.
But through it all, naomi hasfound a sense of peace and
through her writing she'sdiscovered connection, hope and
healing.
Naomi Westerman (02:36):
Through my process of writing my book,
writing my plays, people whohave wanted to hear what I have
to say, wanted to connect, and Ithink that more than anything,
gives me hope the knowledge that, like other people, are also
going through the same thing andthey're also searching for hope
or searching for connection.
And people who've been throughyou know way worse things than
(02:57):
me and they still have hope.
So I think that's a reallybeautiful thing to keep hold of.
Chris Sandys (03:01):
So let's jump in.
We began this conversation, asusual, by asking Naomi to
introduce herself.
Naomi Westerman (03:07):
Yeah, hi, my name is Naomi Westerman.
I am a playwright andscreenwriter and I am the author
of Happy Death Club, an essaycollection exploring death and
grief in different cultures.
I live in London.
I live in Greenwichwich insoutheast London.
I am in my office, surroundedby all my books and my theatre
(03:29):
posters, and at the moment I amin pre-production for a play
that is going to be opening inApril.
So we are right in the middleof doing lots and lots of prep
and publicity and variousdifferent things before we start
rehearsals in a few weeks.
So this is not really a verytypical week.
Uh, a typical week is justsitting and drinking lots and
(03:53):
lots of coffee and trying towrite and occasionally, maybe
doing a little bit of writing,maybe sometimes that sounds very
exciting.
Claire Sandys (04:01):
We haven't had many guests with an intro like
that, and I'm loving the uh.
Naomi Westerman (04:09):
The fact it looks like you have a cocktail
lounge to the right or leftaccording to your poster behind
you, held in Waterloo for many,many years, was wonderful,
launched the careers of manyplaywrights and theatre makers.
Sadly, they lost funding andhad to close, so they sold all
their old props.
(04:29):
So I bought this sign in theirsale.
So this used to be above, likea bar in a fringe theatre venue
underneath Waterloo station.
Claire Sandys (04:38):
Wow, that's really cool and that was on my
wall.
Chris Sandys (04:40):
I know yeah great, I must say.
With regards to as soon as youmentioned your book, it makes me
think.
I must ask, because when youtell people you've written a
book, they're probably reallyintrigued.
In the same way, when we talkabout oh Chris, you've got a
podcast, tell me about your book, what's it called?
Naomi Westerman (04:53):
So when you tell someone about your book,
like we tell someone about ourpodcast, how would you summarise
the mixture of reactions youget when you say, oh, it's
called happy death club?
There's pretty much just one,and it is with very, very few
exceptions my dog, dad,grandmother, friend from school,
(05:14):
mom, hamster died.
Every pretty much 99% of thetime, people's immediate
response is just to tell youtheir death story, tell you
their story about either thefirst time they experienced
death or the most recent timethey experienced a death or the
most significant grief theyexperienced.
And I'm aware that it's a waythat we show empathy by.
(05:35):
You know we try to find thingsin our own lives to connect to,
but it really makes you realizehow many people have experienced
loss and don't feel that theycan talk about it.
And it takes very, very littleurging for people to start
talking about the losses thatthey've experienced, because
maybe they don't haveopportunities to do that or
maybe they've never had theopportunity to do it before.
(05:56):
And it is really.
It's amazing.
It's a lot of weight on myshoulders sometimes, but it is
quite humbling to to be therecipient of all of that from
people.
Claire Sandys (06:08):
Yeah, some people we talk to, they naturally
gravitate towards loss and griefand those sorts of subjects
anyway, do you find that comesinto other aspects of your
writing when you're doing playsand things as well to a degree?
Naomi Westerman (06:19):
yes, ironically , the play that I'm about to
start rehearsals for is aboutdogging.
So, no, so, no, no.
Yeah, it's a comedy, it's aromantic comedy, it's very
carry-on style.
Chris Sandys (06:37):
If you don't know what dogging is, sort of say,
google it.
Claire Sandys (06:40):
I don't know about that.
Anyway, got a bit off topicthere.
So yeah, loss and grief,obviously that's why we're here.
So got a bit off topic there.
So yeah, loss and grief,obviously that's why we're here.
So just share a little bitabout your experience of loss
and grief in your life and sortof where you're coming from with
what you've been through.
Naomi Westerman (06:54):
So I come from a very, very small family.
Originally, my family that Iwas brought up with was pretty
much just my mum, my dad, mygrandmother and my aunt.
So my grandmother died when Iwas probably around 21 or 22.
My aunt died around the sametime, kind of early 20s.
You know, I had sort of likeyou know, like I don't know
(07:15):
great aunts and people like thatwho died, I think when I was a
very young child.
That I don't really remember,but I think my grandmother, my
aunt, dying sort of within a fewyears of each other when I was
in my early 20s, was my firstexperience of significant loss.
And then when I was kind of inmy early 30s, I lost both my
parents within a few years ofeach other, which is very weird
(07:37):
to be.
You know, does the word orphaneven apply if you're an adult?
I think it does, but I'm notsure.
So that was really my majorexperience of grief and loss was
losing my parents, and both myparents died very, very suddenly
without sort of being unwell oranything like that, and that
was quite traumatic anddefinitely sent me down a whole
(08:00):
pathway of trying to figure outhow to cope with my grief, how
to cope with being the onlyperson in my peer circle that
had lost both my parents, noneof my friends who my age had
even lost one parent at thatpoint.
I'm now, quite a few years on,seeing this through in my
friends, helping my friendsthrough the process of having
(08:20):
parents who are very unwell,having parents who probably
don't have very many years left,and I was kind of the canary in
the coal mine for that reallyhorrible thing that most people
will go through in their lives.
And then my background is thatI was an anthropologist, so I
was studying death rituals andthat was something that I was
doing before I suffered majorbereavement in my own life and
(08:42):
that was something that provedextremely useful for me in terms
of figuring out I don't know ifI would say how to process my
grief, but figuring out the factthat there is no right or wrong
way to process grief, I guess.
Claire Sandys (08:54):
Yeah, so how did you get through that?
Because unless you have peoplearound you that can sort of help
and guide you, especially atthat age, that can be incredibly
frightening and lonely.
It was extremely lonely.
Naomi Westerman (09:03):
I was extremely lucky.
Something extraordinaryhappened to me.
A very short amount of timeafter my mum was killed, which
was literally only a few weeksafter this happened, I had a
voicemail asking me to co-writea play for a project that was an
(09:25):
experiment in collaborativeplaywriting.
Collaborative theater that wasbe uh, had been put together by
a playwright and screenwriternamed james graham who is, I
think, quite well known, or he's, you know, very well known if
you follow theater.
He wrote uh, sherwood, the bband 10,000 other TV shows.
(09:47):
He decided to put together thisproject where he would bring
eight emerging kind of earlycareer playwrights together to
co-write a play together.
So I was asked to join thisproject.
I was chosen to join thisproject only a few weeks after
my mum had died.
Never occurred to me to not sayyes, and some people were
(10:07):
surprised at that.
Some people were like, whydidn't you take more time off
work and it just it would neveroccur to me to do that.
And also, I mean, I do considermy work to be work, but it's
not the same as, like I don'tknow, going to work in like a
factory or, you know, an officejob that you hate, you know.
I think creative engagement is,or can be, incredibly healing.
So very, very, very shortlyafter this happened, I kind of
(10:30):
found myself in a writer's roomand then obviously going into
rehearsals with all of theseother wonderful, wonderful
playwrights wonderful, you know.
Actors spending, you know,every day in the theatre
spending, you know, every day inthe theater, spending every day
kind of being able to kind ofplay in a creation of our joint
(10:50):
imaginations.
And the process of makingtheater is not always easy.
Sometimes there's a lot ofconflict, sometimes there's a
lot of big egos, but this was abeautiful experience.
You know it's such a cliche tosay we were like a family, but
we really were.
It was just the most amazing,beautiful thing.
And I think without that I haveno idea how I would have
survived, because those firstfew months of grief was so sharp
(11:12):
and, I think, just being ableto kind of shut the door on that
and go somewhere where I justfelt really supported but also
just didn't have to be definedby this person who just had this
terrible thing happen and findways to maybe process it in a
way that was verynon-confrontational.
You know, I could write aboutwhat I wanted and I could touch
(11:32):
on certain things withoutfeeling pressure to really talk
about death and grief very, verydirectly, because I wasn't
ready to do that then.
Chris Sandys (11:39):
Did your dad die first?
You said they're a few yearsapart.
Naomi Westerman (11:42):
Yeah, my dad died first, um, so my dad
basically dropped dead of likean aneurysm, having been
basically healthy.
So that was very shocking, andsomething that I talk about in
my book is the idea of like agood death versus like a very
difficult death.
I think my dad had a good deathbecause he wasn't sick, he
wasn't in pain, he just went towork, came home, sat in his
(12:07):
armchair and just dropped it,literally after having done like
a full day work, which I thinkis, you know, that's, that's bad
.
You don't want to die afterhaving done a full day work.
But he loved work, um, and heloved his job.
So I think that was okay.
He was very happy with thethings that he accomplished in
life.
He was a very well-organizedtype, a person whose life was
(12:32):
very well organized and hisdeath was very well organized.
You know, I didn't have a lotof difficult things to kind of
take care of because everythinghad been organized.
So kind of going through thatprocess of my dad's death was
very sad, but it wasn'ttraumatic, um, and it sort of
gave me the training, I guess,to be able to do my mum's death,
which was a lot more chaoticand a lot more messy, both
(12:54):
practically and emotionally.
So I in a weird way I'm glad ithappened that way around- you
said because it's a familiarstory to you.
Chris Sandys (13:01):
But you said your mum was killed.
Naomi Westerman (13:02):
Yeah, it's a very, very difficult story.
My mum was in an abusiverelationship.
I don't know what happened thenight she was killed, but she
was in an abusive relationshipand she just ended an abusive
relationship and was in theprocess of trying to evict her
ex-boyfriend from her house.
I have heard many conflictingaccounts of what happened that
night.
I've heard accounts of whathappened that night.
(13:24):
I've heard accounts of whathappened that night that I know
not to be true.
I mean, it's not anything thatwould be prosecutable.
I don't really know.
I don't really know, but I feelemotionally.
I feel that she would be aliveif it wasn't for this person.
(13:44):
But I'm also aware of not youknow my emotional response in
terms of, you know, blame, Iguess, is.
You know we're not in a courtof law.
You know I want to be reallycareful not to libel anybody.
I guess slander anybody whohasn't been convicted of a crime
, crime, because some thingsaren't necessarily prosecutable.
(14:06):
But it's really difficult.
Claire Sandys (14:08):
So you wanted to come on so we could talk about
the loss of possessions, whichis a really interesting.
Take on what happens, becausenot everyone would be aware that
possessions can have such animpact.
You don't really think aboutpossessions when you think about
death.
You think about the personyou've lost and if you haven't
been through it yourself, thereare many ways that possessions
can be helpful.
Hindering can go either way.
(14:28):
Um, so tell us a little bitabout how that links to the
people you've lost and and whyit was such like a big thing for
you to go through with thepossessions yeah, so I think
it's almost like a three-partstory.
Naomi Westerman (14:39):
My my first loss that I remember
experiencing was my grandmother,and because my grandmother was
living in council accommodation,like sort of like you know,
sheltered accommodation for forOAPs, we had a very, very tiny
amount of time to clear out herhouse before the council or the
you know water supportaccommodation, whatever it is
needed to take it back, and mygrandmother lived in Eastbourne.
(15:01):
So there was just no time tokind of sort through her things
and make the decision what tokeep and what to not keep.
My mother and I just had tokind of go to my grandmother's
flat and just hire a skip andjust chuck everything in a skip,
because we just had no time.
So, apart from like a fewthings that my mum was able to
put in the car, all of mygrandmother's possessions were
(15:22):
lost just because we weren'tgiven enough time to actually
sort through her things.
So that was quite sad.
Then, when my dad died, my dad,like I say, was very, very type
A, one of those incredibly kindof well-organized type of people
.
He had very minimal possessions.
I mean, he had possessions, butjust not.
He wasn't really someone whokept a lot of kind of emotional
(15:42):
stuff.
You mean he had possessions,but just not.
He wasn't really someone whokept a lot of kind of emotional
stuff.
You know he was kind of theopposite of a hoarder.
The process of cleaning hishouse was very, very, very easy.
You know, I had someone comealong and kind of collect all of
his books.
I took all of his clothes whichwere just sort of like very
basic set of like you knowMott's, andencer's kind of suits
and jumpers to a charity shopand he didn't really have
(16:07):
anything beyond that, like hedidn't really have a lot of
personal belongings.
Uh, I took a couple of verysmall things but he didn't
really, he didn't really havelike the detritus you would
expect from a life that was thatlong.
And I wasn't really kind ofemotionally weighted to like, oh
, you know, a suit that hebought in Marks and Spencer's
last year.
You know, like it wasn't reallylike anything.
(16:27):
So like emotionally, theprocess of clearing the house
was very, very easy.
But I do also look back and gooh, maybe I do wish that I kept
some stuff, because I don'treally have very much to
remember him by.
And then, when my mother died,there were two things that were
really difficult.
The first is that herex-boyfriend squatted in her
house for about eight monthsafter she died and had to kind
(16:52):
of go through a whole process toget him out of the house.
So that was really difficult.
And then when he did leave, hestole a lot of things.
He stole a lot of possessions.
He stole, you know, things thathad been birthday presents from
my dad to my mom, things thathave been presents from me to my
mom.
Lots and lots of things, lotsof things from my childhood that
(17:12):
I knew that my mom had instorage when I got to the house
just weren't there.
I don't know necessarily whathappened to them if my mom would
chuck them away at some point,if he'd chuck them them away.
But there were definitelyspecific things that I know that
he took a van.
He turned up, sort of had amate turn up with like a van and
filled a van with things.
So that was obviously very,very upsetting.
(17:34):
And then my mum was kind of ahoarder, so my mum had never
thrown anything away, kind of in50 years.
Um, so the sheer scale of things, plus the fact that the house
was just not in a good physicalcondition, you know it had real
problems with kind of mold andit had not been maintained in
like a good condition at all.
(17:54):
Like the floors were rottingaway, you know, the wallpaper
was rotting away, the bathroomwas not functional, the kitchen
you couldn't even go into.
It was in a really really badstate.
And then, on top of you know,my mum unfortunately, you know
had mental health problems, soit wasn't she wasn't able to
maintain her house in a goodcondition.
And then on top of that, tohave this squatter in the house
(18:15):
for like eight months, where hebasically, you know, didn't
clean for eight months he had adog that was kind of running
around kind of everywhere.
It was really really really ina terrible state.
So it wasn't just the hoarder,it was the fact that it was
hoarding plus just dirt and justlike really entrenched kind of
grime and kind of mold.
So I had to throw away a lot ofthings because they just were
(18:37):
not things that I could havetouched or had in my house.
There were lots and lots ofthings that I did manage to save
, but it was still very, verydifficult because it was a
question of just having to justget rid of just huge amounts of
stuff.
And then COVID happened andobviously I wasn't able to get
to the house for a long time andagain, my mum lived quite a
(18:58):
long distance from me.
I don't drive, so it was just aquestion of like literally
having to kind of get on a trainevery single Sunday, go to my
mum's house, make a tiny dent init, and it took several years
for me to be able to clear herwhole entire house and it was
just incredibly, incrediblytraumatic, like I would
physically have to go and sit inthe park behind my mum's house
(19:19):
even in the middle of of winterbecause I physically could not
be in that house anymore.
It felt like a loss every singleday, either because I would not
find things that I'd expectedto find, or I would find
something and it would be reallyreally damaged, or I would find
something and it would beupsetting and it just kind of
felt like, yeah, the loss of,like my childhood in a way, you
(19:42):
know, because I was sort ofexpecting to have lots of things
from my childhood and therewere lots of things I was
expecting to find that I didn'tfind, lots of things that were
just really really badly damaged.
Yeah, so it just it just kindof felt like a secondary loss of
the possessions and my ownsense of like.
Chris Sandys (19:59):
You know, by allowing this squatter to be in
the house for eight months andkind of trash everything and
steal everything, you know thatI'd almost failed my mother in
not being able to preserve herlegacy, I guess, so that was
quite upsetting we've talked onthe podcast before about, uh, us
dropping and breakingaccidentally a hard drive full
(20:19):
of photos that we they were thebackup at one stage and then we
deleted the originals fromcomputer or laptop and then
accidentally broke this harddrive and lost a good number of
years worth of photos and videosfrom some fairly big, momentous
life things and um, on the onehand it feels like, oh, it's a
small thing, but the amount oftimes that we are sort of
(20:41):
heading our hearts go to, oh, ifonly you know there was that.
Oh, do you remember that timewhen we're like, oh, yeah, we
can't go and find the imagesfrom that because that was, you
know, that trip, that experience, that was all in the photos
that we lost.
Are there any examples of ofitems or things that you know
your head, your heart would goto?
The most I wish I had that.
Uh, it just would illustratewhat you're talking about.
Naomi Westerman (21:02):
I'm not a hoarder, but I'm a digital
hoarder.
I kind of upload like everyphoto to like five different
places.
Yeah, no, I think that Iabsolutely understand.
That must be absolutelydevastating.
I would be really upset.
Do you know what sylvanianfamilies are?
Yeah, I had a friend thatcollected them all.
Yeah, so I was obsessed withsylvanian families when I was a
kid and I feel like the reasonI'm a writer is because of
(21:25):
Sylvanian families, because Ijust used to sit surrounded by
my like huge Sylvanian familyvillage when I was a kid and
just like make up stories andhave this like epic, like
ongoing soap opera around theselittle figures.
And I left home very youngbecause a lot of very traumatic
things happened to me when I wasin my sort of early teens and I
had to leave kind of all almostall of my possessions behind,
(21:49):
and these Sylvanian familieswere the one thing where I said
to my mum like please don'tthrow them away, please just put
them in a box, just put themaway somewhere, you know.
And she was like, yeah, yeah,you know, they're in a box,
they're in the garage, they'rein a crate, it's fine.
And I kind of did several timesin the course of her lifetime,
kind of say you know, can I cometo your house and like help you
(22:12):
clean out the garage and likeget you know some of my things
that you've been, you know,storing for me from childhood?
And I kind of, you know, it wasmy sylvanian families that I
kind of wanted and she wouldalways say, oh, no, no, no, no,
because it's going to be like ahuge job and it's a nightmare
and like it was just it was very, very difficult for me to go to
her house as well because shehad this abusive boyfriend and
stuff.
(22:32):
So that was kind of the onething that I was really really
wanting to have.
And the irony is I did find kindof random, odd things from my
childhood, you know, that Ididn't really care about, but
this one crate wasn't there.
So that was the one thing ofgoing like where is it?
Has it been thrown away?
(22:53):
Yeah, I don't know, that wasthe one thing that really, you
know that was quite upsetting tome.
Claire Sandys (22:58):
Yeah, it's heartbreaking to think you went
through all that time, all thoseyears, clearing that house and
you didn't find the things thatreally should have been the
reward for you doing all thatwork.
You should have come away fromthat job.
Normally people would come awayfrom a job like that and think,
ah well, at least I've gotthese things that I found that I
was looking for.
So to do all that and not notcome up with something, and I'm
just I'm really.
I mean, there's so many thingsgoing through my mind now about
(23:20):
possessions, because you talkabout your dad and there's
almost no possessions, and thenyour mom there's almost too many
possessions, but they're notthe ones you want.
So I'm thinking of all thedifferent scenarios people must
be in and the amount of timeslike when someone dies, you
might get given a, the weddingring or something seems
significant.
You're like, oh, I'll have thisfrom that person, but actually
over the years it might be someplastic owl that they had that
(23:41):
you referred to the most, andsometimes you think you're
taking the thing that will meanthe most to you, but sometimes
the connection is actuallysomething that's seemingly
smaller.
So I'm guessing there must belots of things like that that
people have to struggle throughas well.
So there's so many dimensionsto it.
It's really got me thinkingabout possessions, no massively.
Naomi Westerman (23:59):
And one thing I was I was in my mum's loft and
just kind of throwing kind ofboxes down at random and I
opened one box and I have noidea, like just hoarderville, I
have no idea, but there was akettle, a broken electric kettle
, probably circa like late 80s,you know, when they used to have
(24:22):
like the big round kettles withlike the thing we, yeah, and
like for some reason, likenobody has round electric
kettles anymore, we have likethe tall ones now with I don't
know when that happened.
Um, and it's like I wish Icould describe it to you because
I wish I could show you a photoof it, because it was so 80s
looking.
It was like beige and it hadlike a pattern on it that was
(24:43):
like brown and orange kind offlowers like very, like, very
70s in the way that like 70sdecor continued into the 80s.
Anyway, it was broken.
I have no idea why it was upthere, because it clearly been
up there since the 80s and ithad a bright orange towel
wrapped around it and Iunwrapped it and it was my old
(25:04):
swimming towel that I used totake to swimming lessons when I
was in like primary school and Iwas really super obsessed with
swimming, like I was.
I've always been obsessed withswimming my whole life.
So I had this orange towel thathad been shoved in a box for
kind of you know decades, tookit home with me, put it in the
washing machine and it was likecompletely mildewed, it was just
awful.
(25:24):
Put it in the washing machine,came out good as new and then I
looked at it and it actually hada name.
It had my name embroidered onit, when my mum had obviously
embroidered my name on it so Icould take it to school swimming
lessons.
And that is my swimming towelright now I actively use when I
go swimming, like twice a week,and it's got my little name on
it and people like, oh, youembroidered your name on your
(25:46):
swimming towel even thoughyou're on top.
Chris Sandys (25:48):
That's cute oh, when you're swimming, what you
do with the kettle?
Does that just stay in thechanging?
Naomi Westerman (25:54):
well, you know it's come out before.
Like you know, you always wantlike a cuppa of you want some
hot chocolate, yeah can I plugthis in somewhere?
Claire Sandys (26:01):
brilliant, you're with all the people charging
their phones.
You've just got your kettleplugged in my 80s castle.
Naomi Westerman (26:07):
Yeah, yeah amazing.
Claire Sandys (26:10):
Yeah, oh, it's really.
It's so interesting and I justI could already feel, you know,
that people who are listeningwill be identifying with it in
very different ways that oneitem must be more significant
because it is on its own.
Chris Sandys (26:22):
It's not one of many, it's just.
You know, I'm clinging to this.
One thing I managed to rescueyeah, no, it is.
Naomi Westerman (26:29):
It is, and I do look at it because you know
every day that I use it it getsa little bit more tattered, the
holes get a little bit biggerand I do wonder is there going
to come a point where I stopusing it?
And I really don't want to.
I feel like I'm going to belike 90 with this like little
shriveled, tiny bit of likebright orange cloth.
Claire Sandys (26:45):
Just be like oh, it's as precious to me how do
you feel like the, the loss ofpossessions and the loss of a
person?
How do they compare?
If they do grief wise, are theyconnected?
Is it all mixed in and thepossessions make it easier or
harder for the grief as a whole,or do you think it's like
almost a separate grievingprocess for the person and the
possessions?
Naomi Westerman (27:06):
I kind of feel like they're connected in that I
feel like possessions arealmost like a way that you can
kind of project your grief forthe person onto something that's
maybe a little bit easier todeal with.
You know, like it is easier togrieve the loss of possessions
than it is to grieve the loss ofa person, but then, on the
other hand, the loss ofpossession specifically related
(27:27):
to my childhood, I think, in away are harder because that's
linked with a lot of thingsaround the loss of my childhood
generally and things.
You know, I had to grow up andbe an adult very, very quickly
and I did lose a lot of mychildhood as a result.
And then that links in with alot of I don't know like anger
that I had of my mum making badchoices, but then also a lot of
(27:50):
guilt for maybe not doing enoughto recognise that she was going
through a hard time.
So I guess it's just objectskind of being a representation
of a lot of very, very complexemotions that you have about a
lot of different things.
Claire Sandys (28:03):
It's made me think this week because, just by
pure coincidence, we're doingthis interview this week and
everything's happening in LAwith the fires, yeah yeah, yeah,
yeah, so we've been discussinglike.
Well, this is interestingbecause this is a loss of
possessions without the loss ofa person.
Do you have any idea of whatthat would sort of feel like and
how different that might be ifyou lose the possessions but not
the person themselves?
Naomi Westerman (28:22):
I actually know two people One of them is not
someone that I kind of know verywell, someone that I do know,
and then an actor who was nearlygoing to be in my play but then
it didn't work out who actuallyhad experienced the loss of all
of their possessions through ahouse fire, and I cannot imagine
the trauma of that.
I think that must be absolutelydevastating, you know, because
(28:43):
it's like a loss of identity.
You know, you lose your wholeentire history.
I know there are people who arevery zen about having, like you
know, very few possessions.
I can't imagine being that kindof person.
I'm someone who has alwaystaken huge comfort in my
possessions and really rootedmyself, you know, in my
possessions and like and I havelots and lots of possessions
that I've had since I was ateenager, that I've kind of
(29:05):
carted around with me my wholelife.
Yeah, I mean it's justabsolutely devastating, isn't it
?
You're losing your whole past.
You know your childhood.
You know your children'schildhoods.
Chris Sandys (29:18):
if you have children, it's just there's a
lot of weight in possessionsyeah, and now I'm thinking there
is a difference in that itfeels easy to accept something
that's an accident or that'snatural.
You know it's out of control,you couldn't have any part of it
.
But again to come back to yourexperience, there are different
emotions you've already talkedabout.
(29:39):
You know the anger towards yourmum and making bad choices, the
loss of the possessions.
For you is linked with maybeunwelcome or unwanted emotions
and feelings, because whensomebody's died, generally,
generally we look back andremember all the best bits, but
you keep having reminders of thethings, maybe of your family,
that are like I'm just remindedabout the bad bits and not able
(30:00):
to just forget that because ofthis, how do you detach the
anger Maybe you don't theresentment not having these
possessions from the aspectswhen your mum was alive,
certainly with the ex-partnerabusive relationship.
How do you separate them?
Naomi Westerman (30:17):
I'm not sure that I can.
I I really struggle with that.
I think one thing that hasstruck me really clearly in all
of the experiences of loss thatI've had is that I think when
someone is alive, you only havea relationship with the person
they are right now, and thenwhen they die, it's almost like
that changes and you suddenlyhave a retroactive relationship
with the person that they werethroughout the whole entirety of
(30:40):
the time.
You knew them and, like my dadand I, were on really, really
great terms.
When he died, we didn't haveany kind of unresolved stuff and
so it was very easy for me togrieve him.
But when my mum died, weweren't necessarily on amazing
terms.
But then, after she died, Ifound myself really able to live
in my memories of her a lotmore and kind of remember times
(31:02):
when we were on better terms, orremember times from my very
young childhood when she was,you know, a very, very loving
mom, very invested, able to, Iguess, cope with problems in
life much, much more easily.
And I guess it sort of feelslike for a really, really long
time I just had one version ofmy mum in my head, which is the
mum that I was engaging with ornot engaging with at that moment
(31:23):
.
And now it feels like there's50 different versions of my mum
in my head.
Some of them aren't great butsome of them are, you know, are
really great.
So it just feels like I don'tknow.
It's almost like in her dying.
I've been given back the wholeentirety of her and I can try to
see what kind of person she wasbefore I was born, you know,
(31:44):
and have access to that, and tokind of look at her that way,
without being confronted by thereality of the person standing
in front of me.
Claire Sandys (31:52):
One of the things I was thinking that you would
sort of process some of thisstuff through are the death
rituals you know you know arereally important and stuff, and
I know that some of those wereinterrupted for you because you
didn't have things like yourmum's clothes.
How did that affect you?
Naomi Westerman (32:05):
Um, uh, repression, I guess I I know
that, like when my dad died, um,his will said please bury my
body, and he was very clear thatthat was his wish.
And it meant a lot to me to beable to go to his house, go
through his wardrobe and pick areally really nice outfit for
(32:25):
him.
And my dad wasn't reallysomeone who was into fashion.
You know, he wore quiteordinary, you know sort of
business type clothes, but youknow like he quite liked to wear
colour.
So I buried him in like areally really nice, like pink
cashmere sweater that I found inhis cupboard, because he was
just, you know, the kind of manwho had no problem wearing like
a pink sweater, and it meant alot to me to be able to do that.
(32:48):
And then my mum was was cremated, which was something that she
said she would be fine with, andshe had to be cremated just
wearing like I don't know, Iguess, hospital gown.
They put her in when she gotadmitted, I guess I don't know,
I don't actually know what shewas cremated in.
I mean, I saw her body but itwas literally in a body bag.
(33:09):
I don't know Whatever they putbodies in in the morgue, I don't
know.
So she was just kind ofcremated, just without anything
really, because I just didn'thave any way to get access to
any of her clothes.
I felt bad for that.
I felt bad that I wasn't ableto perform that act of care for
her.
I felt better about the factshe was being cremated because I
kind of feel like, well, itmatters less in my head, like I
(33:32):
know it's, I know it doesn'tmatter, but in my head it
matters less what you wear, ifyou're going to be cremated,
because the clothes are justgoing to be burned in like two
minutes anyway, than what youwere to be buried in, because
those clothes are gonna, youknow, stick around for a really
long time.
So, yeah, it was upsetting tonot be able to perform that
particular ritual.
Yeah, that was.
That was not great it can bedifficult.
Claire Sandys (33:54):
We've spoken to people in the past about not
really being able to do certainthings.
One of the episodes we did wasa woman whose husband was never
found he died on a mountain andnot being able to have those
rituals.
We hadn't really fully, I don'tthink, before that episode,
thought about how important theyare in saying goodbye and just
feeling like you've done rightby the dead person and you know
following their wishes, if thereare any, or following through
(34:15):
what you want to do, whatever.
So, yeah, it's quite.
It's quite a big area to not beable to follow through on,
especially for someone whostudied them and knows so much
about them exactly, yeah, yeah,I mean it.
Naomi Westerman (34:25):
It's very comforting in a way to think
that my dad is still, you know,in there kind of all snug and
all cuddly in his like littlepink sweater.
You know, that's quite nice,like I don't know if it's like
rotted away, but you know likeit's yeah, I don't know, it's
nice, I don't know, but it's anice image, I don't.
Claire Sandys (34:41):
You mean, I like, I like the idea of that.
Well, and one of the things wetalk to a lot of people about is
um, why the question?
Why do people ask it whenpeople die?
Because you see it portrayed,you'll have seen it on lots of
you know, tv and films orcartoons, and there's this kind
of expression that when peopledie or something bad happens,
there's this big like why?
Or why me, which isn't alwaysthe case.
(35:02):
Not everyone is asking thatquestion, or sometimes they do
for a little while.
Sometimes it plagues them forthe whole of their life.
So how have you had thatquestion come up and how have
you dealt with that?
Because obviously you've lost alot of family members at a
short amount of time, so thatcould be a big why question.
It might not be.
Yeah, what's that been like foryou?
Naomi Westerman (35:18):
oh god, I yeah, I definitely had a lot of that.
Why and why?
Why me?
Why am I always having theseterrible things happen?
I think the why me a lot ofthat has to do with.
It felt like these deaths, andparticularly my mother's death,
(35:38):
played into something that wasmuch, much bigger in terms of
things that I had gone throughwhen I was a teenager in terms
of, you know, losing my home,losing my relationship with my
mother when I was very young,you know, coming back to a
relationship with her later inlife that was very difficult,
and obviously a lot of thingsaround her.
Being in this relationship withthis abusive man.
It just felt like a lot ofreally, really, really terrible
(36:02):
things happened that were allconnected.
But there was also something inmy mother's death that felt
like something coming fullcircle.
I mean, this is something thatI've written about quite a lot.
I wrote a Guardian articleabout it, but basically, my
mum's boyfriend resulted in mebeing homeless when I was a
teenager and then, as an adult,my mum's death was essentially
(36:25):
the means by which I was able tocause him to become homeless
and reclaim my house, I guess.
So there was a very, very weirdpoetic justice or a very weird
sense of something coming fullcircle or being able to reverse
I don't know things that hadhappened decades ago and it kind
(36:48):
of felt very fatalistic to beable to do that.
It felt very, very fatalistic tobe able to have this like very
uncanny, precise symmetry ofbeing able to do to this person
what he'd done to me, and it'shorrendous that my mum had to
die to do that and I wish thatmy mum could have been a
(37:10):
completely different person.
I wish that she could have beena person who could have lived a
happy, long life, and I feel sosad for her that she wasn't
able to do that.
But I I don't think that sheever would have been able to
escape from this relationship orable to escape from her own
personal demons, and I don'tfeel that I ever could have
lived the life that I'm livingnow, particularly as a writer,
(37:34):
particularly as someone who isexpressing myself, while she was
still alive, and I do have someguilt over that, but like I
feel like I've only really beenable to be emotionally free
since she died because I feltlike I had to keep so many
secrets to keep her safe and Idefinitely don't think that I
could have written with a degreeof emotional honesty while she
(37:57):
was still alive.
So it's kind of a reallyhorrible thing because it's like
I absolutely feel like mysuccess, my career, my financial
freedom has come about becauseof her death.
And that doesn't mean that Iwant her dead or that I'm glad
that she's dead.
It's just a really weird thing.
I'm not glad she's dead.
It's just a really weird thing.
(38:18):
I'm not glad she's dead.
But it feels like it's part ofsomething much bigger and it
just feels weirdly fatalisticand it just feels like somehow
I've managed to close a circleand hopefully I can move on in
my life.
And I don't know what happensafter death, but I believe that
there is something after deathand I just hope that.
I hope that my mum is not inpain anymore.
(38:42):
That's all, that's all.
The only way that I can reallychoose to frame it is that she's
not suffering anymore.
Chris Sandys (38:48):
I guess yeah, that taps into, I guess, a big part
of why we're here with the soundthat, why podcast that we?
We want to explore all thesedifferent types of permanent
loss like yes, yes, people, ofcourse, loved ones, bereavements
in that regard, but also things, body parts, careers,
identities, things that we loseand still have to acknowledge
and grieve and move past, butexplore them with hope in mind
(39:11):
that can hope be found, can goodthings come out of all of these
bad things.
So, listening to you talk there, it sounds like you know you're
still on that path of discovery, in a sense, that you're still
actually realizing there areemotions, there are experiences
that you're thankful for thathave happened as they're
happening now.
I mean one of those.
(39:31):
I guess one of the things we'rethinking about.
I'm thinking about is is peacewith losing the things that
you've lost?
Where are you in a sense ofactually having peace or finding
peace with the Sylvanianfamilies are gone.
I can't get them back.
Where are you with peace?
Naomi Westerman (39:48):
Yeah, I feel like I have reached a state of
peace or a state of acceptance.
I think mostly that is justsomething that comes through
time.
I can't tell you how I did it.
I think it's just incrementalday by day.
You just you just learn to livewith things.
I feel like I am in a state ofpeace now very much, which is
just, I think, learning to livein the moment and learning to
(40:12):
open up emotionally to peopleand get support, and I think I
think being able to open upemotionally and gain support
from people has made me lessemotionally dependent on things,
and I think being able to openup emotionally and gain support
from people has made me lessemotionally dependent on things,
and I think that was a reallybig part of the process of
letting go as well.
Claire Sandys (40:27):
What sort of part has hope played for you,
because hope means lots ofdifferent things to different
people.
Has that been something thatyou've had lost?
Naomi Westerman (40:35):
have no, massively, massively.
I mean I've been throughabsolutely horrendous times in
my life.
No, massively, massively.
I mean I've been throughabsolutely horrendous times in
my life, but somehow I alwayshad hope or I had some kind of
belief that things would getbetter or that I would persevere
or that I would endure.
I feel like I have a bigcapacity to endure and sometimes
(40:55):
that's the only thing you canput hope in ultimately is just
your own ability to just keepbreathing through the day.
But I also had a lot of peoplewho are very supportive of me
through these griefs and throughmy process of writing my book,
through my process of writing myplays, people who have wanted
(41:17):
to hear what I have to say,wanted to connect, and I think
that more than anything gives mehope the knowledge that, like
other people are also goingthrough the same thing and
they're also searching for hopeor searching for connection.
And people who've been throughyou know way worse things than
me and they still have hope andthey still have that mindset of
(41:38):
wanting to connect with peoplein a very emotionally kind of
honest way.
So I think that's a reallybeautiful thing to keep hold of.
Claire Sandys (41:45):
Do you find things like we've got a lot of
different people who find thingslike Christmas and New Year and
those sort of seasons quitedifficult because of many
different reasons, but largelybecause if you haven't got
family around you it can bequite hard.
Do you find those kind ofseasons quite difficult or have
you found a way to navigatethose where you feel okay with
them?
Find those kind of seasonsquite?
Naomi Westerman (42:01):
difficult, or have you found a way to navigate
those where you feel okay withthem?
Uh, I have a lot of things thatI, a lot of structures that I
put in place to try to cope.
Uh, it's really really hard.
My birthday is between uh, mybirthday is on the 27th of
December, so that's also reallyterrible.
Yeah, it's really awful.
Um, I'm also Jewish, soChristmas is not necessarily as
(42:23):
meaningful for me or part of myculture I mean, my dad wasn't
Jewish, so it was part of myculture growing up.
I can't take refuge inChristmas as a religious holiday
in the way that some of myfriends can.
Uh, I also don't drive.
I don't know how to drive sothat you wouldn't think that
that would be a thing, but it'sa really big thing because
there's no public transport inEngland on Christmas Day, so you
(42:45):
can't go anywhere.
So I, you know, I just I have tobe really, really, really
vigilant in just stacking myschedule, making sure that
there's lots and lots of thingsreaching out to friends, booking
social activities, but notnecessarily like super
Christmassy social activitiesand I pretty much was busy like
(43:05):
every single day of like thefestive period except Christmas
day itself, and then I was justlike so tired that I was happy
just to kind of eat chocolateand kind of watch TV and go for
a walk and not do anything else.
I would love to be able tocelebrate Christmas more and I I
hope that maybe one day I willbe able to, but at the moment
it's just kind of I don't havethe detachment enough to be able
(43:29):
to go.
Well, it's just a normal day.
I I, some people do I can't, Ijust can't do that.
It is just a question of havingenough distractions and people
around to be able to kind of getthrough it.
Chris Sandys (43:39):
You've referenced having some really good
supporters around you, which isbrilliant for someone who's had
a very small family, becausequite often it's the family that
you turn to siblings andwhatever else, to share the
experiences.
So you've cleared in somethingright to have a good support
network around you.
We've heard about the towel andhow much you're clinging to the
towel, stepping into the future, hoping it clings to the cotton
(44:03):
strands and stays in one piece.
Um, how do you view the future?
Do you view the future?
Do you think about the future?
Do you plan?
What does the future look likefor you?
Naomi Westerman (44:12):
I mean, I think at the moment I'm pretty much
looking at the future in careerterms.
Um, I'm a bit of a workaholic,I think I probably tend to
subsume a lot of stuff into workand ambition and career.
But I mean, I don't know thatthat seems to be working so far.
Maybe that's a horrible copingtechnique, I don't know, I
wouldn't recommend it.
(44:33):
But you know, my career is very, very, very exciting at the
moment and I happen to work in acareer that facilitates lots of
really wonderful things andlots of really wonderful
connections with lots and lotsof people.
You know, I'm not just kind ofin an office, kind of chained to
a computer.
My career has enabled me to goall over the world and meet
amazing people and reallyconnect with people.
(44:55):
So I think that the way thatI'm looking to the future is
mostly in the work that I'mgoing to do and what that's
going to facilitate.
Chris Sandys (45:04):
I guess Well, it's been an absolute pleasure to
chat.
Thank you for sharing what youhave.
We really appreciated that.
It's a really interesting andsomething that we'll continue to
think about because, as you say, with the LA wildfires in, when
you read stuff in the newsabout people that have lost
possessions, then what you'veshared with us is really helpful
.
So thank you for that.
Claire Sandys (45:24):
Well, same in war zones as well, isn't it?
We often think about oh, atleast the people are safe, or
this person lost their life, orthis person survived.
Secondary is the possessionsreally in your mind, because you
think, well, at least the lifeis the important bit.
But actually to think you know,even if you survive, think you
know, even if you survive,you've lost all those things
it's yeah, it's not something wethink about very often, we
should do really, and so manypossessions are attached to
memories aren't they?
Chris Sandys (45:44):
or handed down, um whatever, they have some sort
of sentimental value.
So to wrap things up for us, umwe end with our wonderful
question um that can put you,naomi.
So what's your herman?
Naomi Westerman (45:57):
my herman I've chosen is my pets, and this is
very special to me because Icome from a massive family of
animal lovers.
My parents were both hugeanimal lovers who absolutely
took comfort in their petsthroughout, whatever terrible
things they were going through.
My dad was a cat person and mymum was a dog person uh, I'm
(46:19):
both, I guess, guess but dogswere incredibly important to my
mom.
She had a beautiful dog namedCharlie and then she had a dog
named Laura, and they saved herlife when she was in this
abusive relationship, reallysaved her life with her, one way
of kind of escaping.
So the theme of like animals,being your hermit and being like
your very precious thing youcan latch onto, is something
(46:40):
that I very much grew up with,uh, and I've always had pets.
I've always, you know, believereally strongly in them.
So, yeah, I currently havelittle pet rats and I rescue pet
rats, and something that Ispecifically do is when people
(47:02):
are wanting to stop having ratsand they've just got one rat
left.
Uh, you can't keep them singly.
It's very cruel.
So if someone has one rat leftbecause the other rats have died
and they don't want to get more, because they want to stop
having them, but they can't have.
This one lonely rat, uh, Iessentially have a service where
I will adopt lonely rats whohave been bereaved, you know,
(47:26):
through having their siblingsdie, and I take them in and I,
you know, bring them into myweird little, you know, rat
family.
Chris Sandys (47:34):
So I do have this is going to be the first ever
demonstration of a hermit.
Claire Sandys (47:39):
Yes, we're going to get to see the rats.
Oh look, Are you running?
Oh?
Naomi Westerman (47:43):
wow, what run.
She's just a little bit scared.
Claire Sandys (47:47):
Yes, that's the prettiest rat I've ever seen.
So what would you say?
What do they give you that yourecommend other people consider
pets for?
What aspects do you think aremost important?
I?
Naomi Westerman (47:56):
mean definitely support.
I think two things.
I think physical touch I thinkis so crucial.
And if you've got a whole bunchof stuff going on emotionally,
sometimes you just don't reallywant people around, you don't
want to have to talk.
So I think something that youcan physically touch without the
pressure to like have aconversation or be aware of,
like another person's emotionalneeds, can be just really
(48:19):
beneficial.
And then the second thing Ithink just having another living
creature that you have toprioritize their well-being is
the most important thing,because sometimes grief can make
you very not self-centered butself-focused.
You know you get so wrapped upin your own grief.
It's really easy to kind offorget about the rest of the
world and kind of come from thisperspective of like why me, oh,
(48:42):
I'm a victim, terrible thingshave happened to me, and just
get quite navel gazey and Ithink that's really dangerous.
And I think it not only is kindof dangerous for yourself
emotionally but it is sometimesnot great for people around you.
So I just think the I thinkhaving pets forces you to
de-center yourself and it kindof forces you to be at least a
little bit selfless, because ifyou've got a dog you have to get
(49:05):
up and walk your dog.
You know you can't like go.
Oh, I'm just gonna lie in bedand mope like you have to walk
your dog.
If you've got, you know, rats,you've got to get up and clean
the cage.
So I think anything that justkind of forces you to put
somebody else first, I think isprobably a very healthy thing.
Claire Sandys (49:29):
We do miss our pets, don't we?
Chris Sandys (49:30):
We really do.
Claire Sandys (49:31):
Animals have an incredible way of offering
comfort, especially in grief, asNaomi shared.
They can shift our focus whenwe need it most, and if you
can't have or afford a pet,there are other ways to connect
with animals.
Chris Sandys (49:46):
We love visiting our local wildlife park, though
there's only really one goat Iget to stroke you do really
appreciate that weird goat.
Claire Sandys (49:49):
I do.
This episode is a powerfulreminder of how deeply our
emotions, love and memories canbe tied to possessions,
sometimes bringing comfort,sometimes pain, Whether they
bring warmth or heartache.
Navigating these connectionscan be incredibly challenging.
It's a side of grief worthbearing in mind the next time
you support someone facing aloss.
Chris Sandys (50:07):
If you'd like to find out more about Naomi and
her book Happy Death Club, youcan visit her website, which is
w ww.
naomiwesterman.
com.
You'll find more links in theshow notes for this episode too.
Claire Sandys (50:18):
And if you want to know more about us, why we
started the podcast, our journeywith grief and childlessness,
or even hear the story of allthe photos we lost head over to
www.
thesilentmycom, or find us onsocial media.
Chris Sandys (50:28):
Speaking of possessions, there's one
possession we think everyoneshould have.
Claire Sandys (50:31):
Indeed, Herman.
If you don't know what a Hermanis, where have you been?
It's not just the finalquestion.
We ask our guests about whatthey'd like to pass on to help
others through grief.
It's also the name of our griefcompanion, a little crocheted
friend that I make to helpsupport the podcast.
If you know someone goingthrough a tough time, grieving
in hospital, facing a big lifechange, don't send flowers, send
(50:53):
herman.
He never fails to raise a smileand offers just the right kind
of support when it's needed mostpeople all over the world have
found comfort in their very ownHerman.
Chris Sandys (51:02):
Want to meet him?
Visit www.
thehermancompany.
com to see his little face andgrab yours today.
Claire Sandys (51:07):
We all know someone going through loss, so
why not send them a link to thepodcast to remind them they're
not alone and thank you forlistening?
If you support the podcast inany way, a huge thank you for
that.
You have no idea what anencouragement it is to us.
Chris Sandys (51:20):
And there's one thing you can do, you must do to
support the podcast and that'srate it, review it on your app
your provider your podcastplatform.
Now it makes such a difference.
Now, we're just about done.
We'll leave you with athoughtful reminder from Indian
author Dara Viswani.
A reflection on the rolepossessions play in our lives,
they may hold meaning, butwithout the right state of mind
(51:40):
they can never bring us truehappiness.
Claire Sandys (51:45):
"Happiness, true happiness is an inner quality,
it is a state of mind.
If your mind is at peace, youare happy.
If your mind is at peace butyou have nothing else, you can
be happy.
If you have everything the worldcan give pleasure, possessions,
power but lack peace of mind,you can never be happy.
"
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