Loss 62/101: Loss through menopause: Diane Danzebrink

#127.  Think menopause is just a physical change?
What if we told you it can also bring grief, loss of identity, and a hit to your mental health?

This is The Silent Why, a podcast on a mission to open up conversations around grief, exploring asking if hope can be found in 101 different types of permanent loss.

Loss #62 of 101: Loss through menopause

In this episode, we welcome Diane Danzebrink, advocate, educator, and author of Making Menopause Matter. Diane experienced surgical menopause following surgery related to a potential ovarian cancer diagnosis in 2012. What followed was a mental and emotional decline that she never expected, and a battle few talk about openly.

This topic is especially close to our hearts. In 2019, Claire (your host) was also thrust into surgical menopause following a total hysterectomy, so we’ve been waiting to find the right person to speak to about the unique grief and loss tied to menopause. And we definitely found her!

Diane brings both lived experience and professional dedication to this conversation. She works tirelessly to support women through the often-invisible losses of menopause while campaigning for improved education, awareness, and support.

In this heartfelt episode, Diane speaks openly about the loss of identity, confidence, stability, and mental health, and how she ultimately transformed her pain into purpose.

Whether you’re going through menopause, supporting someone who is, or simply want to better understand this transition, this episode offers compassion, clarity, and hope.

To find out more about Diane, her book and her work:
https://dianedanzebrink.com
https://menopausesupport.co.uk/

My blog on PMDD: https://www.thesilentwhy.com/post/lostinside

Our story with loss of fertility & childlessness: https://www.thesilentwhy.com/podcast/episode/492a29c1/loss-of-fertility-chris-and-claire-sandys-part-1

Sadly, since the podcast aired, the group I mentioned, Together in Surgical Menopause, had to close as a group.

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Episode Transcript

Diane Danzebrink (00:00):
Hi, I'm Diane Danzebrink and I'm here to talk
to you today about loss throughmenopause.

Claire (00:12):
Hello friend and welcome to The Silent Why.
We're a husband and wife on apodcasting mission to look at
101 different types of loss andto hear from those who have
experienced them.
I'm Claire

Chris (00:21):
and I'm Chris and this is loss 62 of 101.
The grief and losses associatedwith menopause.
Something we've got a lot ofpersonal experience with
haven't we?
Yes, well not quite for youpersonally.
Well yes, thankfully not something I have to navigate.
It really should be calledwomenopause.

Claire (00:38):
And if you're a regular listener you probably already
know our connection to thisbecause I had a total
hysterectomy at the age of 38due to PMDD and endometriosis
and that surgery threw meunknowingly into what's called
surgical menopause and it's beena long journey since trying to
find my new normal and balancethings with HRT which as the
name suggests replaces thehormones lost

Chris (01:00):
well we feel like we've lost a lot because of it and
we've been searching for theright guest to talk to about it
and now we absolutely have

Claire (01:07):
yeah we're thrilled to be speaking with Diane
Danzebrink in this episode ifyou spent any time in the
menopause community, her namemight ring a bell.
She's an advocate, educator andthe author of the book Making
Menopause Matter, a powerfulvoice for change and support.
I met her when she was a guestspeaker for a lovely online
support group called Together inSurgical Menopause.

Chris (01:27):
Diane also went through surgical menopause after facing
a potential ovarian cancerdiagnosis, but the surgery to
try and fix one problem broughtwith it its own unexpected and
deeply difficult aftermath.

Diane Danzebrink (01:38):
I was plunged into surgical menopause in 2012.
I thought that menopause washot flushes and no more periods.
I had no clue.
And for about the first threemonths, I thought I was doing
really well.
And then the first thing that Inoticed was that I had huge

(01:59):
anxiety.
My mood was really low.
I was crying a lot.
I was feeling very insecure.
I seemed to have kind of lostmy confidence overnight.
I was having a really horribletime.

Claire (02:17):
What Diane experienced and what so many others are
living through is a grief thatoften goes unspoken.

Chris (02:22):
In this episode we open up on some of those losses of
identity, stability, confidence,relationships, health, mental
capacity and at times hopeitself.

Diane Danzebrink (02:32):
My mum and my husband tried several times to
persuade me to go and see adoctor but because of the mental
state I was in, I was convincedthat going to see a doctor
would either put me on alifetime of antidepressant
medication or I would beadmitted to a mental health

(02:56):
unit.
And I was pretty terrified ofboth.
And then I remember standing,looking out at the garden and
the world just feeling so dark.
And I just thought, if this ismy life, I can't do this
anymore.

Claire (03:13):
Diane shares the moment she hit rock bottom, but her
story is also a powerfultestament to survival,
resilience and the hope that canemerge even after our darkest
seasons.
There

Diane Danzebrink (03:24):
was a point in my life when I felt truly
hopeless.
Take it from somebody that'sbeen there, that there
absolutely always is hope.
There is life after feelinghopeless.

Chris (03:39):
There is such honesty in what Diane has to share and she
also explains how her ownexperience has led her to help
others with a deep sense ofcompassion.

Diane Danzebrink (03:47):
I remember on one particular occasion turning
very grumpily to my poor husbandand saying how the hell can
this be right?
We're half of the population.
If I ever feel like me againI'm going to make damn sure I do
something about this.

Claire (04:03):
And she absolutely has.

Chris (04:05):
So let's get into it.
Over to Diane to introduceherself and tell us what a
normal week looks like for her.
HiI 'm Diane Danzebrink.
I'm the founder ofMenopauseSupport.co.uk, the
national Make Menopause Mattercampaign, and I'm the author of
a book called Making MenopauseMatter.
And a normal week for me looksa lot like supporting a lot of

(04:30):
people experiencing menopause.
teaching a lot of people aboutmenopause and trying to create
as many free to access resourcesas we can for people all about
menopause.
So it's pretty much eat, sleep,drink, breathe, menopause.
Is there ever a time where you're just like, oh my

(04:53):
word, I wish people would stoptalking to me about menopause!

Diane Danzebrink (04:57):
]laughs ] Well I'm very lucky in that I carve
out time to do some other thingsso this morning before speaking
to you I went to my yoga classon a Friday morning I take
singing lessons and on Mondayevenings I take an acting class

(05:22):
so yeah it's not all menopausethere's some fun stuff in there
and some of the menopause stuffis fun too.

Chris (05:28):
What you fail to tell us, it's a yoga class for
menopausal women.
It's an acting group for womenin menopause.
I can't remember what the thirdthing was
A singing class, and theyabsolutely aren't.
Great.

Claire (05:44):
Brilliant.
It is nice when we get a guestthat has actually been through
what we're talking aboutpersonally, but also has an air
of expertise on it as well.
So we are loving the fact thatyou have so much menopause in
your life.
To start us off, tell us a bitabout, so people are listening
who may be completely new tothis, they haven't got to
menopause, they haven't got apartner in menopause.
Tell us what menopause actuallyis, and then maybe the
difference between menopause andsurgical menopause?

(06:06):
Because I know we'll be talkingabout that a bit as well.

Diane Danzebrink (06:08):
Yeah, so menopause is essentially
something that every female willexperience.
It will be different for everyindividual and menopause is
quite diverse.
So menopause actually means,the word means, the total

(06:29):
cessation of periods.
For the vast majority, amenopause experience will be
described as you'll probablyhear it described as natural or
spontaneous and what that meansis that for each female they're
born with a complement of eggsor oocytes in their ovaries it's

(06:52):
not the same for everybody someare higher than others for the
vast majority it's as they getprobably to their late 30s early
40s That complement of eggs oroocytes gets to a critical stage
and they've been used to havinga regular monthly cycle where

(07:15):
the hormones follow a particularpattern.
As they get to perimenopause,this is where those hormone
fluctuations change.
So what's happening is for aperiod of years, usually, the
progesterone will start to fall,but the oestrogen, rather than

(07:38):
rising and falling graduallyover a month, it will start to
peak and dip and that can bequite erratic and it's that that
prompts people to havemenopause symptoms so
approximately three out of fourwill experience menopause

(07:59):
symptoms for many theperimenopause to menopause stage
so menopause is a clinicaldiagnosis that means somebody
has had a continuous 12 monthswithout a period so for many
they may begin perimenopause intheir late 30s early 40s And
they won't have that point intheir lives where periods have

(08:23):
stopped for at least 12 months.
So the clinical diagnosis ofmenopause until probably their
late 40s, early 50s.
And then everything after thatis post-menopause.
So that's all the years thatyou're going to live after that
12 months without a period,essentially.
And for many, that's going tobe between 30 and 40 years of

(08:44):
their lives.
So a significant part of theirlives.
Then there is surgicalmenopause, medically induced
menopause, early menopause andpremature menopause.
So early menopause happensbetween the ages of 40 and 45.
Premature menopause under theage of 40.
So the youngest woman that Ihave counseled through that

(09:09):
process is 17.
The youngest we're aware of is12.
12 is phenomenally rare.
17 is very unusual, but thereare significant numbers who
experience premature menopause.
Medically induced menopause iswhere somebody is having medical

(09:30):
treatment that has an effect ontheir ovaries.
So it may be treatment thatdamages their ovarian function,
which brings on menopausesymptoms, it might be treatment
that suppresses their ovarianfunction to help with another
medical diagnosis.
So that could be somethinglike, for somebody who has very

(09:51):
severe endometriosis, one of thelines of treatment is to
suppress ovarian function to tryto help with the endometriosis.
Another is a condition calledPMDD, which stands for
premenstrual dysphoric disorder.
So that is, a really severesensitivity to an individual's

(10:16):
own changing hormone levels on amonthly basis and for a small
but significant number of womenthat can have a really
significant effect on theirlives often it's psychological
symptoms which means that theyfind it very difficult to manage
their everyday lives meaningsometimes loss of careers, loss

(10:40):
of relationships, etc.
So one of the lines oftreatment is to suppress their
ovarian function so that they'renot having those hormonal ups
and downs to try to help withthe premenstrual dysphoric
disorder.
And then, as you mentioned,there's surgical menopause.
So surgical menopause is whereyou have both of the ovaries
removed at the same time.

(11:01):
Clinically, that's called abilateral oophorectomy.
For many people, they may havea hysterectomy.
They may have their wombremoved at the same time.
Some people, that will includetheir cervix.
But for others, they will haveovaries removed and retain their
womb.
But if you have both of yourovaries taken at the same time

(11:24):
and you are pre-menopause, thatputs you into an immediate
menopause.
And that's what happened to me.

Claire (11:35):
When I was listening to you, I was thinking, there's so
little of this that women areeducated about, let alone anyone
else.
I'm thinking about school andbeing told about periods.
I mean, whether I didn't takeit in because I was too young, I
wasn't interested.
But I don't remember at anypoint anyone mentioning the
other side of starting yourperiod.
It's not like you're going tohave these for 20, 30, 40 years,
and then you won't have them.
And this is what happens.

(11:55):
We never looked at the wholejourney, I don't think.
It was just, let's educate themabout what's happening now.
And I know I've got a lot offriends in their 30s who haven't
had any symptoms, haven'treally thought So I think...

Diane Danzebrink (12:25):
We kind of have to look back in history to
really be able to answer thatquestion.
For much of history, health ingeneral has been practiced, has
been written about, has prettymuch been dictated by men until
recent history, actually.
If we think about health ingeneral, we can look back and we

(12:51):
see that the word hystericalwas regularly used about women's
health.
So it wasn't taken seriously.
And there were very few womeninvolved in healthcare.
It took a long time for womento be able to train as doctors,
et cetera.

(13:11):
There was quite a lot ofresistance to women being
allowed to train as doctors.
So I think what we've seen in,certainly in recent years, is
that I definitely feel that thisgeneration of women has sort of
stood up and said, actually, wereally have had enough and that

(13:33):
we really need to be looking atall aspects of women's health.
But I think in terms ofeducation, I mean, I completely
agree with you, Claire.
I can remember being at schooland, you know, it was a little
bit about periods and basicallyhow not to get pregnant.
There was never any mention ofmenopause.

(13:55):
So we weren't looking at theentire female life cycle.
And we also have to think aboutthe way that society has joked
about menopause.
I mean, I can remember as achild, probably in my kind of

(14:16):
early teens hearing jokeshearing comedians joke about
menopause regularly malecomedians generally joking about
menopause on television it'ssomething that women have done
behind closed doors i mean iknow nothing about either of my

(14:37):
grandmothers menopauseexperiences, because they were
certainly done behind closeddoors.
So I think it's only morerecently, with all of the
awareness raising, not justaround menopause, but all kinds
of aspects of women's health,that we've started to talk about
it and started to recognise howridiculous it is that we're not

(15:01):
teaching the entire population.
It hasn't been included in thePSHE curriculum.
I'm delighted to say that it isnow on the PSHE curriculum.
But why do we not have a publichealth campaign focused on
menopause if it's going toaffect half of the population
directly but indirectly affectthe other half?

(15:23):
So I think it's probably onlyin the last decade that there
has been sort of a real push tosee some of these things change.

Chris (15:33):
Absolutely, I felt that certainly.
We'll bring it back around topersonal experience, because
when you were talking about andexplaining different reasons for
menopause, different types ofmenopause, it was making me
think more and more, goodness, Ihaven't appreciated how unique
Claire is, having gone throughsort of ticking the boxes almost
of endometriosis, PMDD, as youtalked about then to

(15:55):
hysterectomy and having triedseveral treatments.
Even since hysterectomy, thenall the different HRT types
trying to get settled andstruggling for four years now,
five years since hysterectomy.
So that was just made me think,goodness, I don't fully
appreciate just how sort ofunusual or unique a story that
she's got.
But for you, Diane, just on thesort of pleasant versus

(16:18):
unpleasant scale, what was yourexperience of menopause like?

Diane Danzebrink (16:22):
Horrendous.
Absolutely horrendous.
So my surgical menopause...
happened back in 2012.
I was plunged into surgicalmenopause in 2012.
And essentially, I had beenfeeling pretty rubbish for a
good few months before I went tosee my doctor.

(16:44):
I was feeling really lethargic,really struggling to sort of
have the energy that I wouldusually have, very tired,
Sometimes sort of feeling a bitflat, but just really not
feeling myself, but not reallybeing able to put my finger on
anything.
And I don't really like goingto see the doctor.

(17:07):
I've not had great experienceson some occasions in the past,
and we'll come to that.
But it was my husband whofinally persuaded me to go and
see the GP.
And she was very nice.
And I explained to her how Iwas feeling.
And she said, okay, let's do ablood test.
So she did a blood test.

(17:27):
And I went back to see herprobably about a week later.
And she said, oh, I've lookedat your blood.
She said, and, you know, youriron levels are, your ferritin
is very low.
She said, you know, kind of, doyou struggle with your periods?
And I said, oh, I've hadhorrendous periods for more than
20 years.

(17:47):
And she said, well, why did younot come and see me?
And I lived in the area for afew years, but I'd lived in
several other places.
And I said, well, you know,it's just something that I've
got used to.
And I had...
When I'd lived in other areas,I had tried to address not so

(18:08):
much the heaviness of theperiods, but the horrific pain
that I used to be in on amonthly basis to the point where
it had become quite usual atcertain periods during the month
for me to kind of end up curledup in a ball on the floor with
the pain that I was in.
There's two particularoccasions that stand out to me.

(18:29):
On one particular occasion, Iwas in so much pain and really
couldn't move and was curled upon the sofa.
And my husband called a doctorto come to the house.
And she came and she stood overme as I was curled up on the
sofa.
And she looked at me and shesaid, you're not in enough pain

(18:50):
for it to be appendicitis.
So if it gets worse during thenight, call an ambulance.
And she left.
Wow.
And that was that experience.
And then a few years later, Iwent to see another GP and
explained about the terriblepain that I was in, the terrible
abdominal pain that wouldsometimes shoot down my legs and

(19:13):
in my lower back and the veryheavy bleeding.
And he decided that I shouldhave my kidneys scanned.
So I've got to be honest, kindof the several interactions that
I had just made me feel, oh, Ijust have to get on with it.
So I explained to her and shesaid, you know, you should have
come and seen me.
But the trouble is you sort ofthink, well, I've had several

(19:36):
really poor experiences.
Why would I go just to bebasically brushed off again?
So she said, well, you know,your ferritin is very low.
So I'd like to start you onsome iron tablets and let's see
what that looks like and let meknow in a few weeks how you're
feeling if you feel betterthat's great but if you feel

(19:58):
worse come back and see me againwell within a few weeks i felt
absolutely no better andsignificantly worse.
So I went back to see her againand she said, OK, we're going
to run some more.
She described them as exoticblood tests.
And so she did these bloods.
And you always know, don't you,when a doctor's found something

(20:19):
because they ring you, youknow, kind of they ring you a
couple of days after the tests.
And she rang me and I was athome.
She said, well, I have foundsomething.
She said, so I am going torefer you.
She said, I found that yourCA-125 is very high.
So CA-125 is a protein markerin the blood, which can indicate

(20:45):
ovarian cancer, but I want tobe really clear because I don't
want to scare anybody.
It can also indicate lots ofother things.
So she said, I am gonna sendyou for some tests.
So long story short, I was sentfor tests and scans, et cetera.
And the upshot of all of thatwas that I was sat in front of a

(21:06):
gynecologist who said, we thinkyou've got ovarian cancer and
we want to do a totalhysterectomy.
I'll be honest with you, whensomebody says they think you've
got ovarian cancer, and I'm surethat anybody who has ever had
any kind of cancer diagnosis I'msure that anybody would
probably feel similarly in thatI just thought, okay, we'll just

(21:27):
get them out.
You know, just do the surgeryas quickly as possible.
When we had the conversationprior to the surgery, the focus
was completely and totally onwhether or not I realized that I
would no longer be able tobecome pregnant.

(21:50):
and i was quite irritated atthat because i had explained
that i had never had childrenthat was my choice it felt like
a real tick box exercise to melike we have to make sure she
knows and that was it that wasall of the information that i

(22:12):
got prior to my surgery so i hadmy surgery And I was probably
out of the hospital within about36 hours.
I've got to be honest, I waspleased I wanted to be at home.
She did come and see mefollowing the surgery the next
day.
And she said, I'm pretty surethat I've taken your ovaries

(22:38):
just in time.
She said, you did have complexcysts on both of your ovaries,
but I'm pretty sure that I'vetaken them just in time.
I'm pretty sure they weren'tyet malignant, but that is the
way that they were going.
She said, but did you know thatyou also had grade four

(22:58):
endometriosis, adenomyosis and alarge fibroid?
And I said, no.
Well, nobody had ever told methose things, but that makes a
lot of sense in terms of theamount of pain that I've lived
with for the last 20 plus years.

Chris (23:16):
And I have got a lovely scan of my kidneys.

Diane Danzebrink (23:22):
So it answered a huge amount of questions for
me.
And then I went home.
And I never saw thatgynecologist or a member of
their team again because I wasnever invited back for a
follow-up appointment.

Claire (23:39):
Wow.
And that was you in SurgicalMenopause, which I'm guessing at
this point, you didn't have aclue there was more to come.

Chris (23:45):
Well, yeah, that's not even the end of it, is it?
That's just the end of onechapter and the beginning of
another challenging chapter.

Diane Danzebrink (23:51):
To be honest with you, Claire, I thought that
menopause was hot flushes andno more periods at that time.
I had no clue.
And I thought, oh, do you knowwhat?
If I have some hot flushes,well, you know, that's not the
end of the world.
The surgery's been done.
That's the important thing.

(24:12):
A lot has been discovered,which makes a lot of sense.
So, you know, the one, I haveto say the one kind of fortunate
thing that I felt about thetiming of my surgery was I came
home just before the LondonOlympics.
So I was told to sit on thesofa for a few weeks.
So I got to sit on the sofa forthe entire of the London

(24:34):
Olympics and watch everything.

Claire (24:38):
Perfect.

Diane Danzebrink (24:38):
So that was lovely.
And I did start to have a fewhot flushes quite soon, but
literally it was a handful.
It wasn't hugely intrusive.
And for about the first threemonths, I thought I was doing
really well.
And then I started to feel thatthings were going wrong, I

(25:06):
suppose.
the first thing that i noticedwas that i had huge anxiety and
it turned into really cripplinganxiety my mood was really low i
was crying a lot i was feelingvery insecure i seem to have

(25:28):
kind of lost my confidenceovernight um i was having
horrible heart palpitations iwas I was having a really
horrible time with, I saysleeping, but most of it was not
sleeping.
So I would go to bed, I wouldgo to sleep, I would wake up at

(25:49):
stupid o'clock in the morningwith my heart racing.
Sometimes I would be having apanic attack.
I'd be shaking my husband towake him up, poor man, who'd
been out at work all day andtrying to pick up all of the
pieces of all of the things thatI didn't feel able to do at
this time.
And it sort of carried on justgetting worse, essentially, to

(26:15):
the point where I...
wouldn't leave the house so oneof my favorite things to do is
to walk my dogs in the morningand I wouldn't even leave the
house to walk my dogs I wouldn'tessentially the only people
that I would see were my husbandand my mum I wouldn't answer

(26:40):
the telephone so this is aboutthis is probably about seven or
eight months after my surgery Iwouldn't answer the telephone I
had got to the point where,every time I say this, it sounds
completely ridiculous, but myirrational brain had decided

(27:00):
that everything was going to bebad news and everything was very
negative.
So I'd got to the point where Iwouldn't even open post because
I was convinced that it wasgoing to have negative stuff in
it.
And my mum and my husband triedseveral times to persuade me to

(27:22):
go and see a doctor.
But because of the mental stateI was in by this time, I was
convinced that going to see adoctor would do one of two
things.
It would either put me on alifetime of antidepressant
medication or I would beadmitted to a mental health

(27:46):
unit.
And I was pretty terrified ofboth.
So I just kept refusing.
And then on one particularmorning, I woke up and it had
been another horrific night.
And the bedroom that we had hadthese lovely big glass window

(28:11):
doors.
And I remember standing,looking out at the garden.
And the world just feeling sodark.
It really felt as though theworld was encroaching in on me.
And I just thought, if this ismy life, I can't do this
anymore.
And later that day, I came veryclose to taking my life.

(28:35):
But a little dog called Henrysaved it.

Chris (28:39):
What did Henry do or how did Henry help you in that
moment?

Diane Danzebrink (28:42):
So I was in a vehicle and I was about to do
something very silly with thatvehicle.
So I hadn't driven for a longtime and I still don't know what
sort of made me do this.
I can't tell you.
I've thought about it a lot,but I don't know.

(29:02):
I had four Jack Russells.
I had put the four dogs in theback of the car, got into the
car, started driving, not veryfar from my house.
And I was about to make amaneuver that would certainly
have ended my life.
And as I went to make thatmaneuver, Henry barked.
And his bark kind of brokethrough whatever my thought

(29:26):
process was.
And I don't know what mythought process was, but his
bark broke through it.
And then I sort of went intopanic mode.
at what I had almost done.
I was then crying, shaky, atthe wheel of a car, not a good
place to be.
I had to try to navigate my wayhome.

(29:50):
And thankfully I did.
And later that day, I told myhusband what I'd almost done.
And he immediately, unbeknownto me, he immediately contacted
our GP practice and said that heneeded help and he needed it
today.
And thankfully, one of the GPsat the practice saw me at the

(30:12):
end of practice.
And I went in with my husbandbecause I wouldn't go in on my
own.
And she asked me how she couldhelp.
And I sat there sobbing, snotbubbles, heaving, the whole
thing.
And she said, well, I can helpyou because I know exactly

(30:35):
what's happened.
And that was such a huge reliefto hear somebody say that they
could help.
And then she started to talkabout HRT, hormone replacement
therapy and I immediately kindof reeled back in my chair and
said oh but you know that'sreally scary I've heard the

(30:57):
scary stuff about that etc etcand she said that's okay she
said let me talk to you aboutsort of the latest up-to-date
evidence-based information aboutthat and she took time to
explain it to me I wouldn't saythat she insisted that I start
but she strongly advised that II start and I slapped an HRT

(31:22):
patch on my thigh that day andit wasn't a miracle and it
didn't work overnight but slowlybut surely over the next few
months things started to feel alittle better and there suddenly
seemed to be a bit of a chinkof light in those dark imposing

(31:46):
clouds that i felt sat over meall of the time and i thought
okay maybe there is some hopefor the future and as the months
went on my hrt was changed afew times i sought a therapist

(32:07):
that i could go and speak to andi had lots of support from
friends and family And I thinkthose things together are what
helped me to get through thattime.

Claire (32:23):
Yeah, I totally identify with so much of what you said.
And I think the difficult thingis, especially when it affects
you mentally, I found it verydifficult to describe what I'm
going through partly becauseyour mind's not in a place to be
able to understand it anywaylet alone try and reach out so
reaching out for help is verydifficult even if you're someone
who wants to go to the doctorand spends a lot of time at the

(32:44):
doctor trying to get help it'sstill very hard to verbalize
what you're feeling andespecially if you're somebody
that's quite a can-do personyou're quite a strong person it
feels like you're describing aweakness in you like you've
failed in some way or you can'tcontrol it yourself you can't
just buck up so I think all thatis very difficult I remember
the first time I saw someone itwas I'd gone private to get help

(33:05):
and same sort of thing he waslike yeah I know this I
understand it I can help you andI remember just just crying
because those words mean so muchwhen you're in such a dark
place for someone to just shinethat light in and say don't
worry there's options here it'slike oh my word it's like yeah
it's a it's a very emotionalthing to hear so I totally
totally understand that

Diane Danzebrink (33:24):
yeah absolutely and I think something
that you just said has you knowkind of really resonates with
me in terms of I'm used to beingthe kind of the strong,
sensible, level-headed friendwho everybody comes to with
their problems and we work themout.
And I'd gone from beingeverything that I used to be to

(33:47):
this husk of a human being.
And it just felt so desolateand so hopeless.
And as I say, it really was acombination of things for me
that sort of helped me getthrough that time.

Chris (34:02):
In terms of an overview, on reflection, how many years of
your life do you think havebeen just negatively impacted by
the health struggles?
I know you said 20 years ofstruggling with your periods,
the monthly cycle, and then allthis around the actual sort of
surgery, diagnoses, HRT times.
So how many years do you thinkyou've really just think my life

(34:24):
has been impacted, not in agreat way, by this?

Diane Danzebrink (34:28):
So I think since surgical menopause...
I think it probably took meabout between two and three
years to really feel as though Iwas, when I say back to myself,
I'm not the person that I was.
It's a changed person, butthat's not necessarily a

(34:51):
negative thing.
But I think there werecertainly two or three years
because Even, and I don't know,Claire, if you sort of resonate
with this as we're sort of insimilar situations in terms of
our surgical menopause.
But even for me, having my HRT,having some therapy, having
that family support,particularly in terms of my HRT,

(35:13):
That had to be changed severaltimes.
So during that two to threeyear period, that was a period
of trying to get it right interms of the HRT.
So there can be some real upsand downs during that time.
And then I think I was prettysettled for a long time until

(35:36):
COVID came along.
And I've only ever had twoCOVID vaccinations.
The first one, I didn't seem tohave any effect at all.
The second one, and there'sstill no research on this.
I've spoken to severalknowledgeable menopause
specialists about it.
But the second one, about twoweeks after my second COVID

(36:00):
vaccination, I started to getheart palpitations.
My sleep was broken again.
My anxiety started to ramp up.
And the one symptom that I'venever been able to sort of
manage completely is mytinnitus.
So ever since I had my surgery,I've had tinnitus in my right

(36:22):
ear and that really ramped up.
And I went to see the gp wherei was living at the time and
thankfully for me she is arecognized british menopause
society menopause specialist iknow how fortunate that i was to
have her as my gp just for acouple of years while i was

(36:43):
living in this particular placeand I said to her, you know,
it's so weird.
I was fine.
I have my COVID jab.
And then, and I said, you know,I, I speak to a lot of people.
I run a big support group andI'm starting to see people
saying that they don't feeltheir HRTs working as well as it
was.
We're hearing about young womenhaving really erratic periods

(37:07):
after their jabs, et cetera.
And she said, you know, theredoes seem to be something going
on for some people, but I can'ttell you exactly what's
happening let's change your HRTagain and she did and that had
to be changed a couple of timesbut I probably lost at least
another year and there was apoint during that year that my

(37:31):
anxiety was so bad that Iactually thought about giving up
the work that I do now becauseI just thought I just can't cope
with this so you know kind ofprobably out of Where are we
now?
12 years.
I would say probably four ofthose years were to some extent
lost to the effects of surgicalmenopause.

Claire (37:54):
And of course, with each HRT change, they tell you to
give it three months sometimes.
So just tweaking something canadd months and months to your
recovery.

Chris (38:02):
It's so hard, isn't it?
Because we're talking bigtimescales here, but I've
appreciated having watchedClaire that every single day
there's something in it thatjust is a challenge.
It's not like, you know, try itfor two or three months.
It's like...
Oh, man, every day isdifficult.
Every day there's something totry and manage, something to be
aware of, something to navigate.
It's exhausting.

(38:23):
So I completely understand, youknow, yes, it's one thing to
talk about 20, 25 years.
But to know in that time thenumber of days that you've had
with just quite sort oftraumatic experiences.
And I think we've recognisedjust from what you said how many
temporary losses of things thatyou've experienced through that

(38:43):
time.
You did say, you know, I'm notthe person I was.
You know, we focus a lot withthis podcast on permanent
losses.
So what do you think you've hadto really recognise, grieve,
acknowledge the loss of that,you know, I know physically, of
course, you would.
through your hysterectomy theability to physically to have
children what are some of thethings that have been I guess

(39:04):
the biggest things to grieve andsay this this has gone
permanently and I need torecognize that and grieve it

Diane Danzebrink (39:10):
Interestingly for me Chris because I had made
the choice actually very earlyin my life not to have children
and There is part of me now, Iwill never know the answer to
this question, but there is partof me now that wonders, was

(39:34):
there some kind of inner knowingin me that with what turned out
to be my gynecological history,actually that might not have
been the easiest thing to do?
with what I had going on.
So I will never know the answerto that question, but I do have
a lot of faith in that innervoice.

(39:55):
In terms of loss, one of thethings that I've written about
my anger and having to getthrough that, if we look back
probably to my early to midtwenties when all of this really
kicked off for me with my kindof my gynecological history,

(40:18):
what turned out to beendometriosis, adenomyosis, et
cetera, that had such a massiveimpact on my life and the
incredibly heavy bleeding andthe flooding, et cetera.
I really, I was really angry atthe loss of time and the loss
of opportunity so there werelots of occasions where my

(40:42):
husband and I would literally wewould have to plan our holidays
around my periods so wecouldn't just go ahead and plan
something it would be okay sowhen are you going to be having
a period so we don't want to beon holiday then because you're
likely to be having a very heavyperiod and you're likely to be
in a lot of pain so we don'twant to do that there were lots
of occasions that I missed outon attending so there would be

(41:05):
things that we would be invitedto that either neither of us
would go at the last minute orhe would go on his own because i
couldn't go because either mybleeding was so heavy or my pain
was so severe that i couldn'tgo and enjoy them and one of the
things and I've done quite alot of work on this but it does

(41:28):
still really upset me is I lovehorses and we used to have
horses and the amount of timethat i missed riding my horses
because of the fact that eitheri would be thinking oh you know
i'm gonna bleed i'm gonna bleedthrough whatever i'm wearing

(41:52):
into the saddle i don't knowwhere i'm gonna be or i'd just
be in too much physical pain toactually sit on the saddle and
ride that that does That doesstill really rankle with me.
So for me, a lot of it isaround time and kind of lost

(42:13):
experiences, things that, youknow, joyful events that I've
missed out on.
And just that idea of having toplan my life around pain and
periods.
Yeah, that's they're the thingsthat as I say I've done a lot
of work on that but you knowkind of in terms of the riding
I've come to terms with most ofit but in terms of the riding I

(42:36):
do kind of feel as though thatwas a loss and could I I've
ridden since I don't have my ownhorses now I've ridden since
could I go and ride again yeah Iabsolutely could but I can't go
back to that time when I hadthose horses that I absolutely
adored and I missed out on thattime with them

Claire (42:56):
I think you change as a person for a while.
And I've found there's thissort of need in me to try and
almost want to explain to peopleI meet now or that know me in
this later period, like thisisn't fully me.
I don't know for sure if I willever come back fully, but I
like to believe I will.
But at points when I've beenquieter or less social or I

(43:18):
don't engage in conversations asmuch or I step back from
WhatsApp discussions or anythinglike that, I feel like there's
this sort of I'm a differentperson and I don't like who I am
and I hope I'll become someoneelse again one day but I feel
this sort of need that I kind ofwant to explain it but I also
don't know how so I think justwrangling with your even your
own identity can be tricky andlike who is this is this me

(43:40):
forever because if you know thisis I've often said this to
Chris if I knew this was meforever if someone said to me
right this is you you're notgoing to be able to do this this
this this and this then I feellike I would adapt and get on
with life I've often said to youI wish I could just lose a limb
something physical I wouldadapt and get on with life but
when it's constantly part of youas a as a mental sort of person

(44:01):
and and that side of it I findthat very difficult because I
don't know if I'm this personforever or next month it will be
completely different when youtweak something and find that
very hard one thing we do askall our guests is is if they've
struggled with the question whyat all some people ask it some
people don't is that somethingyou've ever kind of got stuck in
or asked yourself why me why isthis happening to me

Diane Danzebrink (44:20):
no essentially for me I think I've probably
used that in a different way Isee this as part of my life
experience and that is what hasprompted me to do everything
that I've done since myexperience of surgical menopause
and I look at it quitepositively now in terms of if

(44:42):
that hadn't happened to me Iwouldn't have done what I've
done I wouldn't have had theopportunity to affect positively
affect the lives of so manyother people and so I can't say
I'm grateful for it, I'm notthere, but I accept that it was
part of my life's experience andI've used that positively.

Chris (45:05):
then whether it's coming to terms with or grieving
something for both of you, whenthe experiences you have had
have been ongoing, quite oftenit can be a case that you think
that or you assume that grievingis just when something has
ended and then it's about comingto terms with it and accepting
that but when you keep having todo that's a bit well the thing
that comes to mind is your houseis burning down and it's burnt

(45:28):
down the fire's out and you thengrieve the loss of your house
your belongings your possessionsto use that picture it's like
trying to grieve it while it'sstill on fire and then the fire
dampens down a bit and thencomes back to life again it's
like well i've got to keeptrying to recognise the losses,
the things I'm coming to termswith while this fire continues
and it's still burning.
So what's your experience beenlike in that sense of coming to

(45:50):
terms with something that justhasn't ended, it's continued in
different ways?

Diane Danzebrink (45:55):
Yeah, so I think going back to sort of the,
going back to the COVIDexperience, I think the thing
for me, the kind of theoverwhelming emotion for me then
was fear.
I was so terrified.
that I would go back to where Iwas in the months post-surgery

(46:16):
because there were hints of thatin the way that those specific
symptoms that I spoke about werecoming back.
I had this real fear of thefact that I was going back to
where I'd been.
And I can remember saying manytimes to my husband, I can't go
back there.
There is no way that I will notget through doing that again.

(46:40):
So I was absolutely terrifiedof that.
So I think in terms of, I knowthat I'm in surgical menopause,
I will always be in surgicalmenopause and the surgical
menopause will always have to bemanaged.
Claire, again, I don't know ifyou'll resonate with this

(47:01):
lovely, but there, I mean, Iknow that for me, to be me as i
am now this is you know justpurely my experience i need to
have hormone replacement therapyas part of my life and for
people who you know kind ofexperience have to do a lot more

(47:24):
in terms of treatment andmedication they might sort of
think oh for goodness sakeyou're just talking about
putting you know patches onevery week but there are some
weeks when i have to changethose patches and i'm like oh i
really wished i didn't have todo this and i know it sounds
really minor but because i'vebeen doing it for 11 years now

(47:47):
the fact that i have to rememberto do it twice a week and that
i get these sticky marks on mylegs all the time and i have to
scrub my legs to get thosesticky marks off and i have to
work out where i'm putting mypatch this week or this
particular day there are justsome days where i just think oh

(48:09):
and it's it's not all the timeit's just occasionally but you
do yeah i mean for me it's justit is only occasional but there
is just sometimes where i thinki wished i didn't have to do
this but i do because i have todo that to be who i am because i
know that and believe me i'vetried on occasions to reduce

(48:34):
doses etc etc and it doesn'twork for me i i have to be where
i am and i know that i will iwill always need to continue to
do that and most of the timeit's fine but there are some
days where it's just like oh forgoodness sake really Do I have
to do this?
Yes, I do, is the answer.

Claire (48:56):
There's that fear in me that at the other end of my
life, someone's going to say tome, we need to start adjusting
your HRT and bringing it down.
And part of me is going to belike, no, unless it's negatively
affecting me, I'm not touchingthis.
I'm not going through it again.
I don't want to readjust.
I don't want to come off it.
It's not even done, is it?
There's a later period in yourlife when you do have to think
about, do I need to reduce anddo I need to do stuff?

(49:17):
Yeah, it feels pretty endless.

Chris (49:19):
The number of times I've left you drying in the bedroom
every morning.
Because you've literally got abucket of gel.
I've suggested, we need like anon-absorbent onesie that you
just fill overnight with gel.
Looking like a starfish.
And then while you sleep, youabsorb it.
Because it's been ridiculous attimes, the things you've had to
do with it.
Well,

Claire (49:36):
there's so many types as well.
People move from sprays topatches to gels to oral tablets.
And when you said you're tryingeach of those for three months
and then they might want toadjust the dose.
So that's another three months.
And then they say, well, let'stry this instead.
So it is years of trying to getthat right if you're really not
getting it right.
What's What are the things thatkind of, in those darkest
periods, were there anythingthat brought you hope?

(49:57):
Was there anything you wereclinging to that helped you
through to the other end?

Diane Danzebrink (50:00):
Gosh, was there anything that brought me
hope?
Honestly, in the darkest times,no.
And I've kind of, I've oftenheard...
people who have had suicidalthoughts or come close to taking

(50:29):
their own lives and then speakabout it I've often thought and
this is often something that youhear on the radio in a radio
interview and I've often thoughtto myself you know how my heart
goes out to them but how Idid I really didn't understand

(50:49):
what it was like to get to thatpoint in a life where you felt
that that was the only option.
With my own experience, it didgive me that insight.
And it's not an insight that Iwas seeking, but it has really
given me that insight.

(51:10):
It does make me very keen totalk about that because I think
as a society, we still very muchshy away from talking about
suicide.
And I think it's reallyimportant that we do, I mean,
I've been criticised in the pastfor talking about the fact that

(51:35):
there are, you know, sort ofthe highest rate of suicide
amongst females in the UK isgenerally between the ages of 45
and 54 that does tend to thatdoes tend to change slightly on
a year-to-year basis but it'saround that time and so for me

(51:58):
that makes me question couldthere be a connection to
menopause and you know sort ofas i've been in the really un i
say unfortunate I feel veryblessed to have been able to do
this and very honored to beingable to do this for people where

(52:20):
I've been in a position whereI've spoken to several men over
the last decade who verytragically have lost their
partners to suicide, which theyfelt was absolutely related to
their partner's menopauseexperience.
And as I say, I've beencriticised for talking about it,

(52:40):
but I will not stop talkingabout it because if it helps to
save one life, then it's worththe criticism.
I, you know, I do think it'ssomething that generally, not
just in relation to menopause,but generally, we need to get
much more comfortable withtalking about, because I think

(53:01):
that will help people to be ableto open up and talk about what
they're experiencing.
And that's the way to get helpand support.
Yeah.
And so I really hope that sortof in the in the coming years,
we can get a lot better at that.

Claire (53:15):
I'm just thinking about the irony of us looking for hope
in 101 different types of loss.
And the one that maybe youcan't find it in is the one that
I went through.
But I know exactly what youmean because I have been there.
And I think the problem withthis one is with menopause, it
affects your mental cognition.
Is that a word?
In such a way that you're notyourself.
So even if you are someone whowould normally look for hope or

(53:37):
cling to something or that'sjust taken away because you
can't see the world or yourselfor anyone else for what it
really is.
is and it breaks my heart whenI'm in Facebook groups either
for PMDD stuff or for surgicalmenopause where it's people and
it's relationships that arebreaking down and it's someone
saying I can't stand my husbandeverything he does annoys me and

(53:58):
I know that feeling I've reallybeen there but underneath
there's loads of people sayingyeah I left my husband it was
the best thing I did and and itjust oh it just really makes me
sad because there's so manycoping mechanisms you can put in
place and I've had to justlearn them I need to know on
certain days that not to speakmuch because everything that's
going on in my head is dark ornegative or I'll be picking at

(54:20):
people or you know Chris willget everything wrong and I know
those days just to quiet himdown and he's learnt or I'll
verbalise it to him and he'slearnt you know to just let me
be like that that day and we'vehad to learn these things to get
through but a lot of womenaren't told how to deal with
these and the fact that it issomething you can get through or
that you can get help for itand yeah it really saddens me

(54:40):
that that's the case but I dounderstand that feeling of just
no hope because you don't knowhow to get out of it and you're
such a different person and itis so dark and I remember a
situation where I had one ofthose dips for no apparent
reason we were putting up some aplant on the front of our house
we bought this lovely climberand we were halfway through
putting it up and I just crashedI don't know what it was a very

(55:01):
dark place and I had to go andlie down I was crying and all
over the place and I took someparacetamol because my head was
pounding and Chris left the restof the paracetamol on the night
table next to me and I just Iremember looking at them and
saying to him you need to takethose away and I didn't even I
wasn't even thinking of anythingbut my brain was in such a bad
place I didn't trust myself oranything about me to kind of

(55:22):
have control in that momentbecause it is so dark you just
can see no way out so I totallyunderstand that I think that's
why it's such an important thingto talk about because it
affects you cognitively in sucha dangerous way sometimes

Chris (55:34):
that's in the moments in the darkest of the times the
days the moments the seasonswhat about since then so when
you start to get more of afeeling of okay this is me
coming back and So Diane, you'reinvolved now, as you said at
the very start, in many people'slives and have been and
continue to help champion thecause, raise awareness, support
other people.

(55:54):
So what has that hopeexperience been like in terms of
finding a new purpose or newmissions to cling to and to give
you your fight back?
What's that been like?

Diane Danzebrink (56:05):
Yeah, I mean, nothing short of life-changing,
ultimately.
So I said I'm a differentperson.
A lot of this is very positivebecause before my surgery, I'd
never been involved incampaigning.
I would never have thought ofbeing involved in, you know,

(56:26):
kind of anything to do withcampaigning.
But I think it really kind ofstruck me as I started to feel
better.
I started to research andobviously this is a long time
ago.
So I wasn't heading to TikTokand Instagram.
I was digging into chat roomsonline and I just kept seeing
the same things come up time andtime again.

(56:48):
I feel like I'm going mad.
I don't know who I am anymore.
I feel so lost.
I feel so alone.
This is affecting myrelationship.
This is affecting me at work.
And I just remember on oneparticular occasion and I sort
of define this as the turningpoint my life at that time.
I remember on one particularoccasion turning very grumpily

(57:11):
to my poor husband and saying,how the hell can this be right?
We're half of the population.
If I ever feel like me again,I'm going to make damn sure I do
something about this.
And ultimately, that was it.
It was that driver that so manypeople were needlessly
suffering, not just the peoplegoing through it directly, but

(57:33):
those around them, theirpartners, their families, etc.
And that sort of became mydriver so my background is in
therapy i went on and did somenurse training in menopause
combined the two started tocounsel women individually while
kind of thinking what elsecould i could i do here and then

(57:56):
in 2015 set up menopausesupport which was really about
providing information and astime went on I started to be
asked to deliver training tobusinesses and organizations.
We started to do someone-to-one sort of support for

(58:19):
individuals.
I had loads of things on mywishlist that I wanted to do in
terms of providing freeresources.
In 2017, I set up a Facebookcommunity that now has 35,000
members.
in 2018 i launched a nationalcampaign the make menopause
matter campaign in eWstminsterand we now have over 200 000

(58:43):
supporters we've achieved ouraims of having menopause added
to the pshe curriculum havingthat included in the medical
school curriculum sinceseptember last year there's
still a lot to do but i think interms of me personally i

(59:03):
Certainly before my surgery, Iwould describe myself as a
people pleaser.
I was somebody who never reallywanted to upset anybody.
So I would probably do thingsthat I didn't necessarily wanted
to do.
I would maybe acceptinvitations that I wasn't that
thrilled about.
And now I just find it so easyto say no, thank you, which is

(59:27):
just a joy.
It just makes life so muchsimpler.
And it means that I'm much morerespectful of my own time.
I value my own time so muchmore than I used to.
My boundaries are very fixed interms of what I will and I

(59:47):
won't do, where I will and Iwon't go.
who I will and I won't spend mytime with.
I talk a lot to other peopleabout self-care and that's me
caring for me so that I can putthe best that I can into trying
to help other people but that'sbeen a learning process that

(01:00:10):
wasn't like I had my surgery andovernight I changed into this
different person so I still hopethat I am a very caring
empathetic kindness is hugelyimportant to me in my life it is
one of my very core values butI'm a lot kinder to myself than

(01:00:32):
I ever used to be.
And so in many ways, It was, asI said, it was a dreadful
experience to go through, butactually for me, there are lots
of positives to take out of it,not just in how I've been able
to help support and campaign onbehalf of others, but also how I

(01:00:56):
have reassessed my relationshipwith myself.

Chris (01:01:01):
Wow.
And so with all that in mind,how do you view the future now
for yourself, for the widercommunity that you're involved
in, people learning andeducation, how do you view the
future?

Diane Danzebrink (01:01:13):
So if we kind of take that in two parts in
terms of the sort of themenopause and wider women's
health space, I think we'removing in the right direction,
but the pace of of change is fartoo glacial for me.
I would like to see things movemore swiftly.

(01:01:34):
I would like to see morestakeholder interaction with
those of us who are working atgrassroots community level.
I think that's reallyimportant.
I don't think there's nearlyenough feedback taken by
national stakeholders.
So I mean people likegovernments, the NHS, et cetera,

(01:01:56):
from not just me, but peoplewho do work similar to I do in
the entire spectrum of women'shealth.
I think those meetings areoften kind of a handful of
people rather than spreading itout more widely and hearing
about what's really going on onthe ground because that's really

(01:02:17):
what they need to hear.
Taking on some of the practicalcommon sense initiatives that
some of those grassrootsorganisations can bring to the
table so I think there iscertainly hope for the future
and I definitely think thatthings are better than they were
a decade ago this is definitelya decade of not just women

(01:02:41):
because there are men too whoare speaking up in this area but
I think we're certainly in abetter place than we were a
decade ago and for me personallyI think my own life is
certainly in the last So it'staken me probably nine years

(01:03:01):
maybe since my surgery to findmore balance in my own life.
So once I was sort ofcompletely immersed in the world
of support and advocacy andcampaigning, that pretty much
took over my life for a good fewyears.
And now I have a much betterbalance.

(01:03:23):
So I still...
I'm very involved in that work.
It is still my nine to...
Well, it's not even...
It's not nine to five.
But anyway, it's still myMonday to Friday.
But my weekends are...
They're mine now.
Whereas for nine years, theybelonged to the cause.

(01:03:44):
My evenings belong to thecause.
Now my weekends and my eveningsbelong to me and I'm starting
to find fun things to do inthem.
And who knows, I might evenride again in the spring.

Claire (01:03:58):
Yes.
I can't help but think how manywomen, you know, have been
helped by you and owe it all toHenry.
Indeed.
There were a lot to be thankfulfor.

Diane Danzebrink (01:04:06):
Yes, a very kind friend.
for a birthday a couple ofyears ago.
I don't know if you've seenthem, but you can get these sort
of pictorial pillows.
They'll sort of print aphotograph on the fabric of the
pillow.
It was a two-sided pillow.
So one side has got one of ourcurrent Jack Russells, Poppy,
with the Make Menopause Mattersort of logo in front of her.

(01:04:29):
And the other side is a lovelypicture of Henry.
So yes, Henry looks at me everyday in the bedroom.

Claire (01:04:37):
Bless him.
Before we ask our last questionfor you, just give us an idea
of the range of symptoms thatcome with menopause.
Because something I was notprepared for was, you know, I
went to a chiropractor for manysessions to try and sort out my
neck and shoulders.
And when I upped my oestrogen,it vanished overnight.
I never went back in.
You know, I've done dietarychanges.

(01:04:57):
I've done FODMAP diet.
I've done so many thingsthinking I had other issues that
actually, once my HRT wassorted, went away again.
So give us a broad rangebecause, you know, I've had
some, you've had some, andthere'll be loads more.
that we haven't had

Diane Danzebrink (01:05:09):
yeah yeah so before we do the symptoms i
think the thing that's reallyimportant for everybody to know
is that Females have estrogenreceptors from the top of their
heads to the tip of their toesand everywhere in the body.
So if you think that whatevertype of menopause you

(01:05:29):
experience, if your estrogenlevel is going to deplete to
significantly lower levels thanit was earlier in your life,
those estrogen receptors aremaybe not going to be getting
what they've had previously.
So consequently, I think thathelps people to understand why

(01:05:52):
the symptoms can be so varied.
So symptoms really fall intothree categories, physical,
cognitive, and psychological.
Physical, we've all heard, aswe said, of the hot flushes and
the period stopping eventually.
But equally, it can be thingslike heart palpitations.
As you mentioned, Claire, achyjoints and muscles.

(01:06:14):
It can be things like dry eyes,dry mouth, burning tongue,
changes to your gums, dry orthinning hair, itchy skin, gut
and bowel issues because youhave oestrogen receptors.
in the gut and the bowel too.
It can be what doctors call thegenitourinary symptoms.

(01:06:37):
So things like increasedurinary frequency and urgency,
urinary tract infections, vulvaland vaginal symptoms.
And I think with thosesymptoms, for many people, they
find them very difficult to talkabout, sometimes to their own
partners, and very often to amedical health professional.

(01:06:59):
So what we tend to find isthere are a lot of women,
particularly maybe in their 60sand 70s, who are still
experiencing those genitourinarysymptoms, and they have no idea
that they're related to theirmenopause, which could have been
10, 20, maybe 30 years earlier.

(01:07:20):
or that there are very simple,low dose, local estrogen
products that they can get fromtheir doctor, which will help
them with those.
So there are more physicalsymptoms, but that's a brief
overview.
Then with the cognitivesymptoms, you often hear them
termed brain fog, but what we'rereally talking about are

(01:07:43):
changes to memory andconcentration, which can be
challenging in any aspect ofyour life.
But for many people, thebiggest challenges are around
the workplace.
And then you have thepsychological symptoms.
So psychological symptoms, theone that I would say we hear

(01:08:03):
about the most often andprobably comes along quite early
in perimenopause and might notbe recognized as related is
anxiety.
So it's not uncommon even todayhear from women who have gone
to their doctor and said, I feelanxious.
I feel low.

(01:08:24):
My moods are up and down.
I feel like I've lost myconfidence.
to be told well clearly you'restressed and you need
antidepressants and i'm not fora moment suggesting that
antidepressants don't have aplace for some people in their
lives but if that anxiety lowmood mood fluctuation loss of

(01:08:48):
confidence is related tohormones so if that person is
late 30s early 40s they've neverexperienced those things before
then menopause should be therein the equation, that it should
at least be thought about,because they're going to be
related to the hormonefluctuations.

(01:09:09):
In terms of loss of confidence,a lot of people speak about you
know kind of loss of confidencein their workplace loss of
confidence with their ownpersonal relationships loss of
confidence with driving isreally common you know you might
have been a really confidentdriver previously and suddenly

(01:09:29):
you just don't feel confidentanymore and i think for a lot of
people they might be aware thathormones are, you know, the
oestrogen, the progesterone,some of your testosterone is
produced from the ovaries.
But I think for a lot ofpeople, they're not aware of the

(01:09:50):
brain-ovary connection and howall of this ultimately starts in
the brain.
So, you know, there's a lot ofwork to do, I think, around
awareness in specific areas ofmenopause too.

Chris (01:10:07):
Just when you talk about even the physical symptoms, I
was thinking, and we're not eventouching it, there's a whole
different episode in how thatapplies across cultures and
ethnicities, where things arenot so open, subjects are more
private, taboo, male, female,difference, goodness me, it's
such a huge topic.

Diane Danzebrink (01:10:25):
The diversity is huge, Chris.

Chris (01:10:27):
I would love to do a bonus episode, because I've
wanted all episodes just tothrow in a few questions, but it
would take another 20 minutes,about just your support from the
your husband, what thatexperience has been like, but
I'm thinking actually therecould be a spinoff episode for
men.
So people like yourselves couldshare a bonus, you know, listen
to this, make your partnerlisten to this, et cetera.

(01:10:48):
That would be wonderful.
The final question then it'stime.
And we're so grateful for thetime you've given up.
Thank you.
We've covered so much ground.
So to finish off this wonderfulchat, then we like to ask every
guest the same question, whichis something ultimately is
tapping into something you'vegrown, you've nurtured, you've
cared for that can be thenpassed on and shared.
So something specific from yourexperience then that leads to

(01:11:10):
our final question.
Diane, what's your Herman?

Diane Danzebrink (01:11:12):
Can I have more than one?
Go on then.

Claire (01:11:14):
Yeah, you can.
So I have three Hermans and Ikind of think I need three
little blue Hermans.
I have three Hermans.
One is there was a point in mylife when I felt truly hopeless.

(01:11:34):
And I would just like anybodythat listens to this to know
that if they get to that pointin their lives, to take it from
somebody that's been there, thatthere absolutely always is
hope.
And that is something that Ihold really dear to me in my own

(01:11:59):
life.
So that's definitely somethingthat I have learned and I hope
will help other people.
The second thing is what I havebeen able to create out of that
experience and pass on.
So the knowledge that I'vegained menopause support and

(01:12:22):
what it shares will always bethere.
Being able to create somethingthat will continue to help other
people is hugely important tome.
And my third Herman is this isvery much a personal thing.
And I know lots of people willresonate with it is the

(01:12:46):
importance of my four-leggedfamily and how much joy they
have brought to my life.
But ultimately, the fact thatwithout one of them in
particular, I wouldn't be here.

(01:13:07):
So the joy, the hope, and whatyou can do as a result of being
at a point where you're feelinghopeless.
There is always hope.
There is life after feelinghopeless.

(01:13:30):
It's amazing how often we hear stories of people who
have come out of a place of deephopelessness only to make it
their mission to offer hope toothers walking the same path.
Which makes me think that awfulas they are to endure, what an
important place hopeless momentscan have in our lives when
they're used to help others intheirs.
In Diane's words, there isalways hope.
Sometimes we just need a littlehelp to find it, or even to

(01:13:53):
believe it's there.
And if you're new to thepodcast and wondering what we
meant when we talked aboutHermann's, they're more than
just a question that we ask ourguests.
They're also a small, handmadegrief companion that you can buy
for yourself or for someonegoing through loss.
You'll find them atwww.thehermancompany.com, and
there's a link at the bottom ofall our episodes.

Chris (01:14:10):
And to find out more about Diane, her book Making
Menopause Matter, and heradvocacy work, visit her
website, which iswww.dianedanzebrink.com or
www.menopausesupport.co.uk Asalways, you'll find links in the
show notes.
And for more about The SilentWhy, our story, our journey with
childlessness, Claire's blogabout PMDD, the full 101 loss

(01:14:31):
list and much more, visitwwwhesilentwhy.com.
Or if you're on social media,any platform @ thesilentwhy.com.

Claire (01:14:39):
We're big believers in the power of community and
shared experience.
One group I want to highlightis Together in Surgical
Menopause, an online supportgroup I've personally found so
helpful.
They regularly host speakers,share resources and offer
genuine support if you orsomeone you know is navigating
surgical menopause visitwww.surgicalmenopause.co.uk for
more information

Chris (01:14:59):
okay then we always finish our 101 loss episodes
with a quote and this one tooksome digging

Claire (01:15:04):
yeah most menopause quotes out there seem to fall
into two camps overly optimisticabout finding freedom or
personal growth or humorous likemenopause a pause while you
reconsider men by MargaretAtwood also there's some really
depressing ones about how awfulit is as well but none of them
really captured what we were allabout on this podcast.

Chris (01:15:23):
Not quite what we're after, Margaret.

Claire (01:15:25):
Nope.
We wanted to find somethingthat reflected reality and the
hope.

Chris (01:15:29):
And we found it in these words from Carol Parker Walsh, a
strong advocate for women andleadership.

Claire (01:15:35):
"Regardless of the face menopause takes on for you,
don't ignore it, underestimateit or disregard it.
Seek support to manage iteffectively.
Boldly carry your little fanaround with you and let people
know to expect a few changes.
Our After all, you shouldn'thave to go through this alone."