Loss 64/101: Loss of a wife: Richard Smith

#133. “Grief isn’t sad – because it reminds you to make the most of today.”  Curious about how Richard has reached this conclusion after losing his wife? Hit play and find out.

This is The Silent Why, a podcast on a mission to explore grief, asking if hope can be found in 101 different types of permanent loss.

Loss #64 of 101: Loss of a wife

In this episode, we meet Richard Smith, whose wife Heather died of breast cancer in 2014, leaving him as a solo parent to their three children, aged 15, 14, and 11.

Recorded on the exact anniversary of Heather’s death, Richard opens up about the past 11 years of navigating his grief as a widower, the evolving nature of loss, and how he keeps Heather's presence alive in a way that continues to shape his life today.

In this conversation, we explored the emotional journey of losing a partner (while raising grieving children), how grief has changed for Richard over the last decade, the difference between sadness and grief, and why Richard sees grief as a meaningful part of life.

This episode is a profound reflection on love, loss, and resilience, offering comfort and perspective to any of us facing grief. 

More on Richard:

His blog about telling his children their mum is dying: https://www.sueryder.org/blog/richards-story-telling-our-children-their-mum-was-dying/

The Pensions Dashboard: https://www.dashboardideas.co.uk/about/ 

Richard's straight line walk across the UK in 2019: http://www.52inbritain.co.uk/ 

Send us a text

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Episode Transcript

Richard Smith (00:02):
Hello, I'm Richard Smith and I'm here to
talk about my lovely wife,heather, who lost her life to
secondary breast cancer at theage of 47, exactly 11 years ago
today.

Claire (00:16):
Welcome to The Silent Why a podcast on a mission to
find 101 different types of lossand to hear from those who've
experienced them?
I'm Claire.

Chris (00:23):
I'm Chris and in this episode we're talking about a
profound and deeply personalloss and what it means to lose a
partner who is also the motherof three young children.
Are you surprised that we'reactually into the 60s in our 101
list before exploring the lossof a wife?

Claire (00:37):
I am, In fact, I'm quite proud of us for getting to loss
64 and still having some of themore 'obvious' in inverted
commas losses to cover.
Such is the breadth and depthof the losses that we've found
so far, and in this episodewe're speaking with Richard
Smith about the death of hiswife, Heather, who died from
breast cancer in June 2014, whentheir children were just 15, 14
and 11 years old.

Chris (00:58):
And, as it happened, the day we recorded this
conversation was the exactanniversary of Heather's death,
which makes us all the moregrateful to Richard for choosing
to share his story with us onsuch a poignant day.

Claire (01:09):
Over the course of our conversation, Richard reflects
on the 11 years since Heather'sdeath, the challenges and
benefits of solo parentingthrough grief, and how having
children who are also grievingcan impact your own healing
journey.

Chris (01:20):
What stood out most to us in this chat is Richard's
perspective on grief that, whilehe acknowledges grief brings
sadness, he doesn't see griefitself as something sad, but
something meaningful, a reminderto live more fully.

Richard Smith (01:32):
It's not easy.
I cry all the time, I'm sad allthe time, but grief isn't sad
because it reminds you to makethe most of today.
I miss her all the time.

Claire (01:42):
Richard also shares the beautiful ways that he keeps
Heather present in his life.
Moments where her memory is sovivid it's almost like she's
still there.

Richard Smith (01:50):
Sometimes now, if I put the right music on and I
envisage this scene and I reachout over that table, I can
almost touch Heather's hand andeverything's okay.
So she's very present.

Chris (02:05):
Reflecting on the last decade since his loss, richard
now sees grief as something asnatural as breathing Sure.
It's inevitable, but he trulybelieves we can choose how we
respond to it.

Richard Smith (02:15):
I don't think grief is a sad word.
I don't think grieving is sad.
I think it's necessary.
Obviously we all lose somethingor someone, and maybe many
things and many someones.
Of course we we do because weall experience life, and that's
what your podcast is all about.
Right, but those losses remindus that we're not in control,
and that lack of control overthe future, I think, can worry
us and can make us anxious.
But I saw a quote from KhalilGibran.

(02:37):
He said our anxiety does notcome from thinking about the
future but from wanting tocontrol it.
And I think life's just arandom, chaotic mess.
And when we realise that andrelax into that lack of control,
then we can be much morepositive about whatever happens
to us or doesn't happen to us.

Claire (02:55):
So how did Richard get to the point of not seeing grief
as a sad word?
Let's find out.
If you've listened before,you'll know exactly how we start
our conversations, and we didthe same thing in this episode.
We asked Richard to introducehimself.

Richard Smith (03:11):
I'm Richard Smith .
I'm in Wokingham in Berkshire.
I'm here to talk about mylovely wife, Heather, who lost
her life to secondary breastcancer exactly 11 years ago
today.

Chris (03:24):
So on a day like today, richard, let's just dive
straight into it.
It's marked as an anniversary.
Quite often in society, ananniversary will be preceded by
the word happy.
Do you use the word anniversaryin a family context of saying
it is the anniversary?
Is there a greeting?
Or yeah?
How do you say, hmm,anniversary.

Richard Smith (03:42):
Well, our family calendar on the fridge door says
the word death-iversary.
Is that a word I don't know?
I don't know whether the kidshave created that, but sort of
you know she's dead every day,so the anniversaries have never
been a big point for us.
We feel her absence all thetime, so it's just another day,
really Well thank you on theanniversary for giving us some

(04:05):
time.

Chris (04:06):
What do you do as a family on the anniversary?
Because I think today, whetherit's an annual thing, do you
have sort of like a ritual.
We all go out for a bit of foodor we get together.
What's the plan so?

Richard Smith (04:17):
I think sort of how someone dies is really
important, isn't it?
And listening to some of yourformer guests, there's all sorts
of different circumstances,aren't there?
We were very lucky in thatheather was at home and and she
declined in the last sort ofthree weeks, but for those three
weeks in june 2014, we didn'treally go out the house.
You know community, uh, nurses,health visiting and doctors and

(04:41):
various other support.
She had a hospital beddelivered downstairs, but it was
all very in the house and somany family and friends were
visiting and maybe we'll come ontalk about this.
It's a very powerful, raw time,but anyway, because of that, on
the morning she died early inthe morning on the 25th of June.
We thought, ah, we can actuallygo out, and the kids were teens

(05:03):
at the time.
Well, they were 15, 14, 11.
So we went into Wokenham andall went for a Nando's the thing
I hadn't anticipated, thoughwalking in the door asking for a
table of four, and that was thefirst time it hit me that we
were now you know very, veryreal terms not a family of five,
and four feels way more than20%, less than five.

(05:25):
So we've tried to, if we can.
Obviously, they're in theirtwenties now, so it's a bit
different.
People are scattered, but if wecan so, for example, after this
recording we're going to nipinto Wokenham and have a Nando's
.

Claire (05:35):
Give us a little bit of a potted history then, of sort
of when you met Heather, whathappened, and then sort of what
happened leading up to her death.

Richard Smith (05:42):
So Heather Wood she was before she was Heather
Smith and I, like many, manyother school and college leavers
in the central Berkshire areain the 1980s and 1990s, worked
in pensions administration atthe Prudential or the Prue in
their central Reading officesand many, many people found

(06:02):
their life partners there.
I think there were 7,000 peopleworking for the Prue in in
Reading at its at its peak.
So we got together in 95, gotmarried in 1996 and were blessed
with with three children allaround the turn of the
millennium Catherine, born in1998, flisty, born in 2000 and
Adam, born in 2002.

(06:23):
I feel I should just pause.
I feel awkward talking to youtwo because this whole podcast
is about you know, you two nothaving children, and yet I'm
talking about my children.
But then I did listen to yourrecent episode celebrating your
20th anniversary and we only had18 years.
So you know you beat us there.

Claire (06:41):
But it's not a competition.
It's not a competition.
No, no, please don't feelawkward about that.

Richard Smith (06:46):
we love to hear about other people's families,
so, yeah, don't worry about thatat all so the kids are all in
their in their mid-20s now today, but shortly after adam's first
birthday in 2004, uh, heatherwas diagnosed with breast cancer
.
We were both 36 at the time andthe kids were five, four and
one.
She did really well.
She had chemotherapy for justover 10 years.
So there are lots of familystories how the kids would go

(07:08):
with her into the RoyalBerkshire Hospital, the
Berkshire Cancer Centre, therein Reading and play games while
she was having chemotherapy allin their formative years and
we're all so grateful that shewas around for their formative
primary school years.
But then, in 2014, the cancermetastasized to several places
in her skeleton and then shedeclined.
I think this is quite typicalOnce it moves into your bones.

(07:32):
She declined quite quickly inthe final few months, dying
shortly after her 47th birthdayin June 2014.
As I said, exactly 11 years agotoday from the day we're
recording this podcast, when shedied, catherine, felicity and
Adam were 15, 14 and 11, and Iwas 46.

Claire (07:50):
So tell us what it was like in those early days.
You've just said about goinginto a restaurant and it hitting
you that you weren't a familyof five anymore.
What does it feel like to be inthat situation?

Richard Smith (08:00):
Well, there's quite a lot to say about it and
I've reflected on a lot, andthis, I think, is why it's quite
interesting that this isn't arecent loss, because you do sort
of think about it differentlyover the years and then you
reflect on how you thought aboutit before as well.
If you see what I mean.
Part of the thing about, Ithink, the two of us is we were

(08:20):
sort of quite interested inlooking out and seeing others.
So one thing is there were lotsof different losses.
Lots of people lost something.
So Heather lost her life, buther mum lost her daughter and
her brothers lost their sisterand her kids lost their mum, and
many friends lost someone whowas really fun to be around, and
the list goes on.

(08:40):
And of course I lost my wife.
So when someone dies, it's oneloss for sure, but it's also
many different losses all at thesame time and it's quite a
confusing, multifaceted thing.
So I suppose I reflected lesson what it meant for me and
maybe sort of what does it meanfor Heather, because I suppose

(09:02):
those of us who are still herecan talk about how we feel, but
one person who can't is Heather,because she lost her life.
So I've reflected on that quitea bit, maybe as a distraction
from how I felt myself.
I don't know, and I've thoughtabout what does losing your life
mean?
Because all of our lives aregoing to end, aren't they?
That's certain, like death andtaxes, it's certain.

(09:23):
But what we don't know is when,it's like the ultimate unknown.
But we do have this sort ofexpectation, don't we, of
roughly how long it might be.
I think we call it lifeexpectancy and, because of my
field, if you go onto thewebsite of the Office of
National Statistics, or ONS,they have a life expectancy
calculator based on your currentage and sex.

(09:45):
So for me, for example, as a57-year-old male, I have a 50%
chance of living to 84, but Ialso have a 10% chance of living
to 97 and a 3% chance of livingto 100.
So what should we reasonablyexpect?
It's a really tough thing.
One thing I've started to do isthink about life in days.
I don't know whether it's to dowith Heather going, I'm not

(10:07):
sure.
If you live to 82, then you'llhave been on the planet for
30,000 days.
There's a book called 4,000weeks by Oliver Berkman.
It's about how, to you know,make the most of your life.
So if a week is not seven days,obviously 4,000 weeks is 28,000
days, but I think lifeexpectancy is a bit longer.
It's about 30,000 on average,but of course you might get more

(10:30):
.
My dad lived to 94.
I just looked up the oldestperson alive on the planet right
now she's in the UK.
She's Ethel Caterham.
She lives in Surrey.
She was born in 1909.
So she's turning 116 thisaugust and she's been alive
today for 42 312 days.
So obviously that's that's anexception at the end.

(10:52):
But heather didn't obviouslyget anywhere near 30 000 that
reasonable expectation.
She was alive for 17 241, so abit over half of that 30 000
expectation.
So I've reflected a lot on whatis a day.
You know, what do any of us dowith our days, and it's quite an
interesting thing when youthink about it in that way.

(11:13):
And it comes onto somethingI'll probably mention which is
about the now and making themost of now.

Chris (11:20):
Clearly, as you say, you've reflected a lot and that
comes across in all yourconsideration for different
aspects, different elements, andthat will have included you as
a husband as well as you as adad, because you probably
reflected a lot 10 years ofHeather's life with cancer as
part of your story, a part ofyour family story.

(11:49):
Did that set you up for sort ofhope that maybe this will go
away or maybe it will always bethe case, and then suddenly, as
you said, it metastasized, gotserious and then the end came.
Yeah, what was it like livingfor so long and for the children
to have that as part of thefamily story?
That's a great question.

Richard Smith (12:08):
Chris In fact I was just saying to Catherine,
the oldest one, just now, beforepreparing for this, heather's
oncologist, dr Clive Charlton,at Barcher Cancer Centre.
He said, several years into ithe said oh, I think you two have
come to think you're invincible, you know, because there's so
many treatments and and she wasyoung and she was healthy and
she did respond well, so it wasjust part of family life and, as

(12:31):
I said, you know, the kids wentinto the hospital when she was
having having treatment, so itwas no big deal.
In fact, I think the reason Idiscovered your podcast you had
a Sue Ryder assistant directorof bereavement guests Bianianca
newman, was it, I think and Ilisten, I heard that because I'm
connected with with with suerider because heather was in
hospital for a bit.
They asked me to write a blogabout how we, how we spoke to

(12:55):
the kids when we knew that itwas terminal near the end in
2014 and as part of that blog, Isaid cancer it was like no big
deal, it's like it would.
It's always been there.
So Heather was occasionally inhospital.
You know various complicationsand Adam, our youngest, I don't
know at seven, eight, nine, he'dsay oh, you go down here and up
down that round there in thehospital.

(13:15):
I say, adam, how do you knowyour way around?
He said because I've beencoming here all my life.
I've been here since aone-year-old in the push chair.
Do you see what I mean?
So it was no big fear, really,it's just, oh, yeah, got to have
some new chemo.
And I think that maybe onething I would reflect on
differently, or try and thinkdifferently, is cherish the

(13:36):
moment more, because you don'tknow what's going to happen.
Of course, the oncologists, theclinicians, they do know that
things can change, but I thinkwe might have thought, yeah,
heather can live with thisindefinitely.
But that obviously didn't proveto be the case.
But we did have 10 years, those10 years from when they were 5,
4 and 1 to 15, 14 and 11.
And I say to everybody thankyou for paying your taxes,

(13:57):
because those cancer drugsaren't cheap.
And they gave her the 10 years.
And, to be honest, I inheritedthree fully formed young people,
you know, because they've beenaround her, and she was a, you
know, fantastic mum and, youknow, spent those years, you
know, being a, being a mum tothem.
So that was, that was great.
Thinking about how they havebeen.

(14:18):
Chris, you know sort of theother part of the question.
It's really hard, you know Isaid there's lots of different
losses going on.
I don't know what it's like tobe an 11 year old losing your
mum, you know, and I mean I was50 when I lost my mum in her
eighties.
So it's it's, it's very hard toknow that and I, you know, in a
way I hope they find podcastsrun by, you know, gen Z's like

(14:40):
them.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, like you're, like I'mtalking to you.
You know who can perhaps, youknow, relate more.
I think it's partly just beenmy job to be there to feed them
and clothe them and respond, butI I've been a little bit
reticent about trying to pushany particular solutions onto
them.
One thing I put in that SueRyder blog as well is I think 10

(15:01):
years on they've all recognizedmore what they've lost and now,
now they see their 20-somethingfriends having adult
relationships with their mums,you know, like going for a wine
with their mum, sort of thing,and I think you realize more
what's lost.
And this is this thing about Ithink.
I think others of your guestsare saying the grief is always
there.
You know it's like it's goingto continue being there and

(15:22):
it'll continue to be there indifferent ways.
But my thesis is it's a goodthing and I want to come.
I'll stop now, but I want tocome on to.
I think it's a good thing.

Chris (15:31):
In terms of the blog that you've mentioned there.
Why did you feel like you hadsomething to say and to share
about telling the children thattheir mum was dying?

Richard Smith (15:41):
So I think Sue Ryder reached out to me I can't
remember what the connection wasthat led to that they publish a
lot of bereavement material orsort of grief related material
on their website to sort of helppeople who are going through
these circumstances so not justabout hospice care but about
grief and bereavement moregenerally.
And they find or they've toldme they find that stories real

(16:04):
stories have much more impactthan sort of a dry generic.
You know, here's some best tipsthat's useful, but what someone
actually did has more sort ofimpact.
So I think one key thing isthat it wasn't too raw.
I mean partly I'm doing thisnow, 11 years after, because I'm
not sure I'd have been able totalk like this one year after

(16:26):
heather died do you know what Imean?
Or even two or three, but Ithink you know a significant
number of years can can help youjust be a bit more relaxed and
calm about it.
So maybe one of the points wasit was some years ago and I
mentioned this point about howyou know we they've, they've all
developed.
I think that was the hopefulpoint, in that we're all fine,

(16:50):
we're all still here, despite itbeing probably the rawest day.
Um, I think I mentioned inthere.
So this is going back.
Catherine went to see McBusted.
What is that?
A combination of Busted andMcFly, I think at the O2 with
friends and then stay there withfriends.

Chris (17:04):
Don't pretend you don't know.

Richard Smith (17:05):
Come on and then, and then Felicity was staying
with friends as well, so we toldAdam on his own and we were
watching Mamma Mia on the DVD ona laptop remember those uh,
upstairs, because Heather was inbed, obviously, because 11 is
quite young, isn't it?
So we, we told, told him, andthen the next morning the girls
came back from their sleepoversand their constant, they were

(17:25):
buzzing about everything.
And then I I had to bring themood crashing down to to say you
know, well, you know, yourmom's been having more
treatments and that doesn't looklike it's working this time and
in fact it looks likely she'sgoing to probably die and it
could be quite soon.
But the hopeful point from thatis they've said to me years
later Dad, we didn't really knowwhat was going on, mummy is

(17:47):
dying.
What is that?
That didn't really meananything, because the word
cancer had been around forever.
Do you know what I mean?
So I think it was more.
The benefit of years ofreflection can make things seem
less raw, because that's apretty raw thing.

Claire (18:05):
So you said you know, going back you might not be able
to do this.
Maybe year one, year two, yearthree, if we met you year one,
what did that look like?
What?
What did you and the childrenlook like, sort of for the first
year of this?

Richard Smith (18:18):
well, I was just on autopilot feeding and
clothing them and getting themto school.
I think we were a verycollaborative couple.
I think a lot of couples are.
You know, I think you two, youknow you bring different things
to your relationship and you,you do what you do as a, as a
couple.
And then if, if you arefortunate enough to have
children, you know we were quiteyin and yang.
You know two parts comingtogether.

(18:39):
So I think and maybe this istrue, I mean, every loss is
different.
It's not for to say for others,but I think one thing is, if you
do lose your spouse or lifepartner, relatively young in
life, what you lose is like yourteammate or like your pal or
the person you face the worldwith.
Oh, you meet someone you know,you fancy them.
The look of you doesn't makethem physically sick, as Tom

(19:08):
says, in Four Weddings and aFuneral, you a funeral, you know
, and you think, oh, should wehave some children?
Okay, let's give it a go.
It's a project, isn't it?
It's a thing, and and you'revery blessed to do that I almost
got upset there.
Might get upset, but it's a,it's doable because you're a
team, right, and then I'm doingit for the listeners.
I'm doing a sort of yin andyang sign with my hands.
If you take one part away, yousee everything that you're not

(19:28):
do.
You know what I mean?
Um, I think one thing again onyour 20th anniversary episode,
you talked about one of thethings fabulous friendship.
Yeah, that.
I think that that is what'slost.
But again, on the upside, assaid before, I was gifted these
three young people who wereperfectly well formed.
Had she died quite quickly in2004, when they were five, four

(19:50):
and one, this would have been anutterly different story and
they would have been completelydifferent people, because they
would have been reared by me Areyou with me?
But they were already teens, orAda was nearly a teen.
So I think possibly I spent abit too much energy focusing on
myself and not on them.
I don't know, but, as I say, Idon't know what I was, I don't
know what I could do because Iwasn't them.

(20:11):
What makes you think that shesaid near the end, like promise
me, you'll look, you look afterthem, and I, of course, yeah, of
course.
But the thing, the one sort ofbit of burden or weight, I mean
I'm very lucky, I'm fine, we'reall healthy and, you know,
haven't got money, worries andeverything.
But the one burden I do sort offeel is have I done right by
her with with them?

(20:32):
You know, and I don't know howyou judge that, because there's
only one person on the planet orshe's not on the planet that I
could chew this over with.
She's not here, you know,because that that is the thing I
mean.
It's so.
This is what our relationshipis.
It's someone to choosesomething over with, isn't it?
And you know you can talk withfamily and friends, but they're
not Catherine and Felicity andAdam's mum.

(20:53):
You know, they're not my wifeand that's that's.
That's the thing.
So it's.
It's a bit of a gap that Ican't chew over with anybody how
it's gone.
That would be nice.

Claire (21:02):
I sometimes dream that she's allowed to come back for a
day and I can chew this overand she could say, yeah, it's
all right do you think you'dhave been able to to verbalize
back then if someone had said toyou, tell me how you're feeling
and you could sort of honestlysay, let's say you could say it?
Would you have been able toverbalize what you were going
through or was it just like youwere just surviving?

Richard Smith (21:21):
yes, I think.
I think probably more that,claire.
All of what you're hearing nowis 10 years on and my reflection
on it.
Perhaps I should have kept.
I wouldn't have kept a journalat the time, it just would have
been not nice and I think I wasjust sort of surviving.
I was really lucky.
I say to everybody just getlife assurance, because there
was a lump of money.
So I didn't have to go to crazywork.
This is the thing.

(21:48):
If I'd had to go and continuedoing work, so that I had a
pause in work where I learned tobe a single dad and then we did
some work on the house andstuff.
In fact that was the mandate.
Heather, we'd always had a planto do stuff with the house and
she wrote a list that I found ofdo something with the French
doors and etc.
Etc.
And that was my mandate.
Because there was some money, Icould actually do it.
Do you know what I mean?
So I was so lucky that I coulddo that and then I learned a
little bit about what being adad was.

(22:09):
I think I don't know I'mgeneralizing, but I think a lot
of dads, I would say, don'treally know what is going on in
their households.
You know, because generally I'mafraid it is still like this
the mum is sort of running itall.
The great like this, the mum issort of running it all.
The great opportunity I've hadis the, the exposure to what
being a mum is and being incharge of all of that.
So that's been fun and I'veI've inherited a lot of

(22:31):
heather's mum friends or hernetwork of other other mums at
school, uh, and I've I'm justlike hugely in awe of, like mums
who are running householdsbecause, obviously generalizing,
but you know, typically,particularly when kids are small
, dads are going off to work andaren't seeing the chaos which
is family life, which is familylife and keeping on the topic of

(22:52):
gender, what has been yourexperience generally of of being
a man, through this, with othermale friends, all the manly
sort of emotions, feelings, some, some men don't talk about
feelings, some are more open toit now but what's?

Chris (23:08):
yeah, what's been your experience of being a man so?

Richard Smith (23:12):
I've just heard your very latest let's chat, uh
episode clear with david kelly,who you know a hospice worker,
who, who has, you know, personalexperience of a loss but works
in that space as well, and hewas saying something that really
resonated with me is thatgenerally in groups that talk
about this stuff, generallythey're majority female and I

(23:35):
think he talked about this modelbetween, uh, intuitive or
instrumental grief and, again,in general terms, girls are down
the one end of of well, how,how do I feel about this?
Can I talk with other people?
Generally, another group offemales, men, are more well,
what can I do?
How can I fix this?
What can I do to make thisbetter?
And I think that's been myexperience is that support or

(23:56):
sort of awareness or the abilityto articulate feelings, you
know, and just relax into thathas generally been more
prevalent amongst females.
Also, two other famous widowersrobert peston on the tv news id
was bbc's itv news and julianbarnes, the author.
They did a couple of radio 4programs.
He said on that to robert, justthe two of them chatting his

(24:19):
male friends had beenuniversally unhelpful, you know,
and in fact they sort of evendenied his late wife's existence
, you know, whereas femalefriends would, of course, talk
about it.
Do you know what I mean?
But I think that's, that's okay, that's just how it is.
Sue rider said to me.
They said, richard, you're abit unusual, you're a man who
talks about his feelings.

(24:40):
But maybe it's a spectrum,maybe we are all on this
spectrum, you know, and somegirls are more down one end and
some boys are more down theother.
You know, it's, it's, it's,it's not binary, I don't think.

Chris (24:50):
But personally I am more of a talker, as you can already
tell, and I find that chewingstuff over, either in my own
head or with with other folk,like you is, is really helpful
so have you come to formresponses to questions that sort
of come sideways in a sense,whether it's at gatherings,
social functions, people you'venot met before and they say

(25:11):
things like oh, are you marriedor is your wife here?
All the sort of assumptions.
Are you quite content withwhere you are now when that
happens, or are you stilllearning how to respond?
Or are you still?

Richard Smith (25:22):
learning how to respond.
That's another great question.
So it's almost meet someone.
You shake their hand Hello, I'mRichard, I'm a widower.
You know it's because if youdon't get it out soon and then
you chat quite normally, eitherof an evening or even over days
and days, that you meet someoneagain, it can become awkward.
That you didn't mention it, andmy kids have found this as well
.
Now they're in work situations.

(25:42):
You have that.
You didn't mention it and mykids have found this as well.
Now they're in work situationsyou have to take a stance about.
Well, am I gonna?
You don't really want to sharethat when you first meet someone
, but it's quite helpful too.
But I find restoring, bringingsome humor and comedy to it,
talking about the dead wife,that that's for us, that's easy.
Sometimes that's a bitunsettling, for others it's,
it's tricky, it's a real, realparadox.
But the other side for me andthis is coming onto the positive

(26:05):
thing, you see, I don'tnecessarily see it completely as
a loss, because she's she'sstill very present and the
reason I can talk about thistoday now, in 11 years, is
because she's very present.
I can almost reach out to her.
So I was thinking of of whatscenario I might sort of try and
depict that with.
So a favorite thing of ourswould be like maybe a long train
journey, maybe like on theNorth Line I don't know if you

(26:28):
know it from Inverness up toThurso, right at the top of
Scotland, where Heather was born, actually, and maybe it's on a
weekend and we've got a coffeeand the Saturday papers and
we're at a table seat andHeather's backwards and I'm
forwards it's always that wayaround and then we've got a

(26:50):
walkman because it's the 90s,and we've got a splitter.
Do you know that you can plug,plug in tracks together?
Yeah, oh, yes.
Sometimes now, if I put theright music on and I envisage
this scene and I reach out overthat train table, I can almost
and everything's okay.
So she's very present.
So it's quite an interestingthing to talk about this with

(27:11):
folk to say, well, yeah, shedied, but actually that's not
the end of the world.
Do you see what I mean?
It's a paradox and, as we'vealready said, some folk are
maybe less comfortable receivingthose sorts of messages than
others.

Claire (27:25):
It's hard so where's that come from?
Has that been a conscious thingthat you've decided to do to
keep her present, or have youfound that she's just naturally
become that?
Or did you see someone elsetalking about doing that?
How is?
Because that's not somethingI've heard a lot of people talk
about before so you did anexcellent um blog three years
ago, claire.

Richard Smith (27:43):
I loved it.
Disappointed with life, allwith life, all about expectation
.
And you said in that I thinkabout we have a responsibility
to help but offer hope and don'thold people in their grief and
don't keep people in their grief.
But I think my view is slightlydifferent on that.
My view isn't that hope followsalong after grief.

(28:03):
It's actually there alongsidegrief, and forever.
So for me, I don't think thisis possible.
I'd even like to change thedictionary.
I don't think grief is a sadword.
I don't think grieving is sad.
I think it's necessary.
Obviously we all lose somethingor someone and maybe many things
and many, many someones.
Of course we do, because we allexperience life, and that's

(28:23):
what your podcast is all about.
Right, but those losses remindus that we're not in control,
and that lack of control overthe future, I think, can worry
us and can make us anxious.
But I saw a quote from theLebanese-American writer and
poet, khalil Gibran.
He said our anxiety does notcome from thinking about the

(28:43):
future but from wanting tocontrol it.
And I think life's just arandom, chaotic mess.
And when we realize that andrelax into that lack of control,
then we can be much morepositive about whatever happens
to us or doesn't happen to us.

Claire (29:01):
Yeah, that's a great way of seeing it.
Do you think?
Well, can you imagine in anyway how your grief would have
been different if you had beenon your own and you didn't have
the children with you?
Would you think you'd come outwith the same sort of thoughts
about it, or would that havelooked quite different?

Richard Smith (29:15):
um, that's a really good question, I think.
No, I think I'm so positiveabout heather now because she's
in the kids.
I don't know nature and nurtureit's hard to say, isn't it?
But I see a lot of her in themand that's another reason why
she's really, really present,because she's in the house all

(29:37):
the time.
I do worry a little bit, thoughI try not to use the words move
on, you know, going through asif it's a place you've got to
get to, I do a little bit that.
Am I not living my proper lifenow?
But you know, I think I thinkyou may have heard previous
guests say oh, you know, he wasa love of my life, she was a
love of my life.
I think Heather was a prettyspecial person.
So the 18 years that we weremarried, that maybe that's going

(29:59):
to be enough for me.
And you, you know there'supsides, you know we never argue
, you know she never like shoutsat me, so, um, it's okay, but I
think without the kids maybe itwould have been quite different
.

Claire (30:12):
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting because I think when
, when someone dies, especiallywhen it's a mother and it's
young, it's almost like thegrief is seen as so much worse,
which it is, because obviouslythere is more loss.
Like you said, a young someonehas lost their mother young,
which is something no one everwants to go through.
But in talking to all ourguests, those that have had
children seem to have had thingsabout looking after children or

(30:32):
about having children that'sactually helped them in their
grief, which is not what you'dexpect necessarily, and those
without that, I think, havestruggled to get out of it a
little bit.
More massive generalizationgeneralisation that won't be
true for everyone, but it doesseem to be a little bit of a
theme.
So it interests me how muchchildren can help someone in
their grief.
I'm not saying it's necessarilyhow the children cope with
their grief, but as theindividual adult that it seems

(30:56):
to have this driving force thatyou have to get on with life,
you have to do things for thechildren a little bit.
But to be able to see theperson you've lost in and
through the children is anotherlovely way of keeping them alive
, I guess.

Richard Smith (31:08):
And Claire, I think it's as well as that, if
you're a thoughtful person, thatit's a continual opportunity to
reflect.
You know I said about you know,you see what you're not,
because you were a collaborative, coherent couple together.
But then you see everythingyou're not, um, you know, if I
just say sort of, you know whatwas heather, you know, after she
died I found her school reportswhich I'd never seen when she

(31:31):
was alive, and in the last one,at the end of her sixth form,
which was exactly 40 years agothis summer, so summer 1985 the
headmaster I've written it downhere the headmaster's comment
was her charm of manner andgaiety are outstanding and it is
these three qualities that willserve her well in the future.
And and that was spot on, andat her funeral I talked about

(31:52):
three com words which sort oftried to depict how I felt she
was and how she lived her life,and they were commitment,
compassion and comedy.
You know.
So she did something, she did itwholeheartedly and she did it
with love and always, alwayswith a smile and a laugh.
God, I really, really miss herlaugh.
But I get to think could I bethose things?

(32:12):
Or maybe I'm not those things,and that's okay, because you
know we were a good couple.
Because I didn't have thosesame things, you know I was the
serious one.
So I think there's lots ofopportunity to reflect and enjoy
and remember the person more,because you're doing what they
were doing, but in a differentway, because you're you and they

(32:33):
were them there's a phrase thatkeeps coming to mind when
you're talking, and it's aphrase that some people have a
real issue with, I think.

Claire (32:42):
But I think in some ways it must be true.
But I keep thinking about thefact that time heals and some
people really don't like thatkind of concept.
But looking at you, I feel likeit could be.
I don't know, it could be saidof you, but I'm interested to
know does it does time, has timehealed?
Or is this something thatyou've specifically kind of
cultivated as you've goneforward?

Richard Smith (33:03):
well, we had.
We had some email exchange,didn't we, claire, before this,
about keeping the grief alive,because I heard one of your
previous guests say that and Ithought, yes, that for me
crystallizes it.
It was Caroline Fowler, I think, who, um, whose father had an
aortic dissection, but she doeswork now in that space, working

(33:27):
with a clinician, I think, andshe said she recognises that's
keeping the grief alive.
But for me, as I think I'vesaid, I think that is actually
necessary because it continuallyreminds us of this lack of
control.
Life is uncertain, so it's aparadox, but I think this
concept of grief is powerful,it's positive, and I think I'll

(33:49):
probably only stop grieving whenI stop breathing.
And that's exactly as it shouldbe.
And why do I say that?
Because when you truly get andyou're continually reminded that
we're not in control of thefuture, it makes two things
crystal clear.
One for that future we can andshould be hopeful, because good
things can happen, but withoutexpectation that they will,

(34:12):
because there's no certainty ofthe future.
But two for today we shouldreally cherish today and make
the most of the only thing whichis certain, which is right now.
I've even heard it said thattomorrow doesn't exist, because
when we get there it'll just beanother now.
So I'm quite happy to continuethinking about Heather and
imagine the train on theScottish Highlands or whatever,

(34:36):
hundreds of differentcircumstances, because for me
it's a continual reminder thatwe don't know what's around the
corner and we have to make wealmost sort of have to make the
most of now because of that, andfor me I think it's hard
because it's full of paradoxes.
So there's this confusion or weget messed up in our heads
between the past and the presentand the future, because our

(34:57):
past experiences and ourunrealised expectations, which
were probably unrealistic anyway, they may not have been
realised and of course thatshapes our thoughts about the
future.
But the only agency we have todo anything about any of it is
right now.
It's impossible to act at anyother time apart from right now.
But it's easy to forget that,and for me the continual

(35:18):
reminder of this truth isthrough remembering Heather and
remembering that she only had17,241 days.

Chris (35:26):
In your previous answer, when you were talking about the
three comms.
Remind me, was it commitment,compassion and comedy?

Richard Smith (35:33):
Commitment, compassion and comedy, yeah.

Chris (35:35):
And then you said you know, that's not me.
That made me think oh, I wantto ask you what it's been like,
sort of finding the rightbalance of having to pick up new
duties, maybe as the dad andfor the family, that that
heather's not around to do.
So you're now doing things thatheather isn't here to do, but
also having to remain your owncharacter person.

(35:59):
You can't be the committed,compassionate, comedic one.
Was it hard to remember thatand not try and be the character
of Heather for the kids, but toactually just to remain
yourself, even though you weredoing more, maybe jobs, duties
that you shared before?
Does that make sense?

Richard Smith (36:18):
Yes, it does entirely, Chris.
So, yeah, it's really tough.
You're not that person and youcan't be, and it's really
upsetting that you haven't gotand and you can't be.
Um, and it's really upsettingthat you haven't got all the
attributes that they had.
But again, the upside of thatis you can enjoy and relish that
they did have those attributes,but I've got a sort of sense
that leopards don't change theirspots.
I don't think you can reallybecome something that you're,

(36:39):
you're not.
It's not really sort ofauthentic, and I think there's
lots of opportunity for humourhere.
You know, and we can joke andwe have a family sort of little
joke in the family that you knowthe wrong parent died,
obviously, you know, because she, but it's you know, and you
have to have a lot of humourabout it because she was the fun
one.
But yeah, you can't besomething you're not, but you

(37:02):
can move towards it or becomeaware of it as something you're
not, but you can move towards itor become aware of it.
As I say, a lot of dads haven'thad this exposure to what all
of that is and I think that'sbeen a great opportunity for me
to learn more about and I thinkI'm probably a more empathetic
and compassionate person,because I've been exposed to
that.

Claire (37:15):
We ask all our guests this because it's different for
everybody.
But have you ever battled withthat question?
Why have you asked yourself,why have I had to go through
this?
Why has my children's motherdied?
Those sorts of questions.

Richard Smith (37:27):
Well, no, not really, because I think life is
just a random chaotic mess.
So, because we're not incontrol, therefore cherish the
moment.
So it's almost like why not?
Something's going to happen toall of us, isn't it?
It's happened to you, it'shappened to all of your guests,
Every single person living isgoing to experience life.
So it's about relaxing intothat lack of control which maybe

(37:52):
I'm just thinking now.
Maybe that's not a verytypically masculine thing, you
know, because as a man, maybeyou want to intervene.
You know, at work, maybe as amanager, you're paid to take
some action, to do something,Whereas actually I think what
I'm sort of maybe reflectingback is it's okay, it's just
stuff's going to happen, and bechilled about that.

Claire (38:11):
That's a difficult thing to learn.
I know that this sort of lossis one that I hear people sort
of speculating about, most sortof fearing, especially young
couples who have got children.
The horror of going throughlosing their partner in life is
something that sort of you know,you hear about it happening to
other people and it just sort ofsits there.
What if it happens to me?
So when you're in that place itsounds like you're sort of

(38:32):
saying if you can somehow justembrace the fact that we're out
of control and that this chaoticstuff happens.
But I guess some people arelike I don't want to relax into
that.
I don't want my partner to die.

Richard Smith (38:49):
What do you say to people that are maybe
struggling with that idea?
Well, one thing is you know, Ithink one thing I have learned
is every single individualsituation is different, so it's
probably not for me to sort ofopine on other people's
circumstances, but I think, as Isaid, relaxing into this lack
of control, I think you said inthat blog I mentioned,
disappointed With Life you'retrying to learn to be a person
that can accept your situationand enjoy it for what it is, but
you haven't quite managed thatyet.

(39:10):
Yeah, so I'll play that back toyou.
That's three years ago.
How's that work in progressgoing?

Claire (39:16):
I'm still not there.
Quite, yeah, exactly.

Richard Smith (39:19):
Yeah.

Claire (39:19):
I think it's, but, like you said, it's a good thing to
have and to aim for.
So maybe that's what peopleneed to consider aiming for it.
I really want to relax intothis.
I want to, and I have reallyenjoyed listening to guests talk
about similar things to whatyou say, like grief not being a
bad thing.
Like grief is part of life andI think we have it as we go
through life and maybe, if we'reunlucky, grief hits us and it's
like no, no, no.

(39:40):
Like grief is there, it's.
You don't know how or when orwhat it will look like, but it
will be there.
But it's also a natural thing.
It's a natural thing to gothrough.
We don't really see it likethat over here.
I think we hide it away a lot,so I think a lot of people do
really fear it.
But then to live in fear ofsomething that might never
happen damages the today,doesn't it?
So I can understand thatembracing the chaos would help
that.

Richard Smith (40:00):
I'm quite an advocate of talking about death.
That's the only thing I said,that's certain, apart from
paying taxes, and you know thatdoesn't always go down well.
It seems like quite morbid andmorose, whatever.
Maybe that matches mypersonality, but I because, when
you truly get it, the onlyresponse is to make the most of
now, when you realize that it'sdefinitely the end, it's certain

(40:20):
and it's relatively close, it'sless than 30,000 days away,
unless you're.
What was her name?
Ethel Caterham in Surrey, who's116.
So when you truly get that, whenyou truly understand but I
think you're right, claire, inour Western societies we've sort
of tried to diminish ourmortality, but I think it's very
, very powerful and it reallyrelates to my work.

(40:42):
So this whole thinking aboutpast and present and future and
the uncertainty, exactly thatreally comes to my work.
Maybe I'll say a little bitabout that and maybe that'll
give another perspective on it.
So you know I said, heather, Iworked at the Prue in Reading in
in pensions.
So so pensions is it's aboutlike having money later in life,
maybe when you're not, you'renot working right.
That is classic, if not theclassic conundrum of this past,

(41:06):
present and future thinking, youknow, and often worry.
So if I or am I employed, ifI'm working, we put some money
aside today, it'll be there inthe future.
That's good.
But that means I haven't gotthe money to spend today.
And will I live that longanyway?
Heather didn't.
And if I do survive, how muchdo I need?
How much should I forego todayin my spending so that I've got
enough when I'm 70, 80, 90?

(41:26):
These are intractable questionsand they can really really mess
with your head and consequently, the vast majority of people
are totally in the dark in this,not just in this country but in
the developed world, andthey're just blindly hoping for
the best.
But despite those uncertainties, you do need some sort of plan.
So with pensions, most peopledon't know what they've got, let

(41:49):
alone what they're going toneed in the future.
So what the government's beendoing it's been working with my
industry really hard for severalyears to help people with this
problem and the idea which Ithink is incredible is the
ability to see all yourdifferent pensions from your
different jobs and your statepension together really simply
on your phone, and it's called apensions dashboard.
And everybody I mentioned thisidea to now if they're in their

(42:12):
40s or 50s but young people too.
They say I need that, and manyother countries have already
developed this service.
It's going to be a seriouslycool sort of societal level
development and, spookily, thefirst media report on this topic
was in the Financial Times onthe day of Heather's funeral in
June 2014.
I said it's been coming a longtime.

(42:32):
It's because it's such a vastproject.
So from that day until now, eversince, I've been doing a blog
all about it on the developmentof pensions dashboards, and I've
been privileged to be involvedin various different capacities,
both paid and voluntary, in theinitiative, and my motivation
to help in this and helpcontribute, try and solve this
big societal issue for millionsof working age people is what's

(42:54):
happened in my life.
I'm really, really sad thatHeather's not here.
It's painful, but, like so manyof your guests, I think you
were saying, Claire, you want todo something with that pain,
something with purpose that youfeel is important, which, for me
, I just happen to have foundthis thing that's been around
since she's died, and there's alittle play on words that I like

(43:16):
about keeping this pain aliveeven though it's painful.
It's no surprise to me that theword passion has got pain
running right through it.

Claire (43:24):
I think this is something that some people will
be thinking and it's one ofthose things that someone might
say to you at some point.
They might not, and it's not avery nice thing to say.
I feel like I want to ask it.
So, because you've got thisamazing way of looking at grief
and you've reflected back andyou've really thought about it
and you've seen what you weremissing when Heather died and
you've raised these amazingchildren and you've raised these
amazing children and you knowyou've done all this stuff, and

(43:44):
because it's so many sort ofyears later and you're looking
back, there's a temptation tothink that this was easy for you
and that this you just foundgrieving easy in some way, or
that you know, somehow you had astrength about you that could
do it easier than the averageperson, because you've just got
this amazing way of sort oflooking at it.
Do you need to dispel that mythor are you somebody who just
found it like an easy process?

Richard Smith (44:05):
It's not easy.
I cry all the time, I'm sad allthe time.
But grief isn't sad because itreminds you to make the most of
today.
But I miss her all the time.

Claire (44:15):
Yeah, I think that's important for people to know,
because I know that from havingyou know, had conversations with
you and things.
But sometimes it's easy tothink that, oh, some people just
get through this better thanothers.
It's like, no, that's not howit works, it's not easy for
anybody.

Richard Smith (44:25):
I think that maybe this is his pain and
passion point.
I think they've got the samesort of origins.
Maybe you can feel stronglyabout something because of the
situation.
Now, I thought you might Idon't know where the question
was going Club, I thought youmight go on to say, as a benefit

(44:52):
, you and I think some of yourguests have almost said they're
glad it's happened would they goback to the person hadn't died,
or they hadn't lost their armor whatever their loss was, you
know, and I think some of themhave almost taken that step and
said no, I wouldn't.
I'm, I'm a better person becausethis has happened yeah and that
that's quite a tricky stepbecause absolutely I'd love

(45:14):
Heather to be seeing her grown20 something children, you know,
and that's the thing that hurtsthat she is not seeing her
three growing up into caring andcompetent young adults and that
is the thing that that hurts.
She's not seeing the productsof her labors if, if you like,
she really adored those kids.
So I taking that step to sayI'm glad it's happened, is it's
a step too far, but I think it'smade me better.

(45:36):
I think it has.

Chris (45:38):
That's quite a paradox to say that, to even say that
isn't it yeah well, along thoselines of going back, a neighbor
in wokingham has developed atime machine.
Oh, richard, come and have a goin my time machine.
So three questions that follow.
Do you accept the invite?
If you do, what point do you goback to?
And then the third part forwhat reason?

Richard Smith (45:59):
wow, so a lot.
What's in my head right now?
Do you remember I said we gottogether in 95?
It's 30 years ago now.
So we were like 27, 28.
And Catherine, my oldest, now,is 20.
Well, she's turning 27 soon.
She's met someone and they'regetting together.
So a lot in my head has beenhow special that time is.
You know, when you meet someoneand you get to know them better

(46:22):
.
And I think, when you know, youknow when you meet someone and
you get to know them better andand, uh, I think when you know
you know, do you know what Imean?
Well, that was a situation forus anyway.
So, yes, basically, questionone I'm definitely going back
somewhere.
Let me explore.
Let me explore where.
So when there's something reallyspecial about getting together,
but also that's allpre-children and all the family
life and the and the chaoticlife, so so I don't know.

(46:44):
There was also quite a lot ofhumour in her treatments as well
.
So it's quite hard to say,because as soon as we had kids
she had cancer.
Do you know?
Adam was one.
Do you know what I mean?
So it's sort of there haven'tbeen that many phases in our
life there's been sort ofgetting together.
That was quite rapid.
In fact.
The kids teased me saying oh,you move, you're a fast mover.
You know, we got married.

(47:05):
We got married within sort of18 months of getting together,
sort of thing.
Then we bought a house and hadchildren pretty much straight
away.
Then she had cancer straightaway, not exactly, but you know.
So in my head I suppose thoseare the phases.
There's that wonderful time inthe 90s of, you know, being
newly in love and thinking, oh,this could go somewhere, and
then, and then the fun of fun ofhaving children and just

(47:28):
completely making it up as yougo along, not having a clue, but
, as I said, it's okay becauseyou're a team.
And then the fun, or the darkhumour of all the cancer.
We had a little joke.
A little thing would be regularthree-monthly appointments to
go and have checkups and thewaiting room is filled with
septuagenarians, octogenarians,nonagenarians and then, like

(47:49):
heather, who's in her 30s or 40s, and we always found out that
if there's bad news, if thelatest ct scan is not good news,
they they like to take theirtime with you.
So they put you in at the endof the the appointments list.
So we joke, we'd sort of say,oh, we're still here.
It was you know.
They asked you to come at ninebut we're still here at 12
o'clock and we're going to beasked in late.

(48:09):
So we, like we, try and make uphow bad the news would be.
But it's little funny.
Little stories like that arefunny.
Can I?
I don't know.
Can I have all three?
Can I have you know newlytogether?
Then you know brand new kidsand then you know the privilege
of seeing someone cope with andcontinue to be a fabulous mum

(48:32):
with cancer.
All three of those wereinspiring times.

Claire (48:35):
Why not?
Once you're in the machine, youcan do what?
You want?
I reckon yeah.

Chris (48:39):
The neighbours in a different time, waiting for it
back.

Claire (48:41):
Is there anything that you would have liked to have
told yourself when you wereearly in those days of grief?
Is there anything about griefyou wish you'd known a little
bit earlier on?

Richard Smith (48:51):
yeah, that's a.
That's a tough one becauseyou're sort of finding your feet
.
Um, I think grief doesn't startat the moment of a loss,
because I think you know ifpeople have a terminal diagnosis
, you sort of you're into,you're into something there and
then whether you really believeit or understand it in your head
is a thing as well.
I think all this cherishing themoment stuff I've been

(49:14):
blathering on about now I thinkI probably wasn't very much like
that when Heather was in herfinal years and I wish I'd
perhaps been a bit more likethat.
Let me just tell a story as wellabout were so lucky she went
into a Sue Ryder hospice for acouple of weeks to be stabilized
because she had hypercalcemia,where you have too much calcium
in the blood and you get very,very confused.
That was funny.
She's like come out with allthese very, very weird things,

(49:35):
like she was looking at apicture of the wall and she said
, oh, there's all the monarchs,there's Henry on Britain's Got
Talent, you know, and it's someweird stuff.
And she was in Adelaide Ward inReading and she was so upset
that friends were coming tovisit and having to pay the
airfare to come to.
Australia and you're laughingand crying at the same time
because it's so sad that she'sso confused because of the

(49:56):
calcium in the blood, but it'sfunny as well.
Anyway, then she came home and,as I said, had the hospital bed
in downstairs lounge for thelast three weeks.
Came home and, I said, had thehospital bed in downstairs
lounge for the last three weeksand I cherish those three weeks.
So, first, to the 24th of June2014, she had so many friends
she's exactly not what I was,I'm quite sort of insolent.
She had.
She was so gregarious, as herheadmaster said 40 years ago, so

(50:18):
many friends would come andvisit and she's, you know,
deteriorating and it's clearlynearly the end now and they're
all coming, coming and they knowthey're saying goodbye.
So raw days and days of rawness, but it's a really positive
rawness, because all theniff-naff and trivia doesn't
matter when people know and Idon't think she was too aware
she was quite drowsy and a lotof morphine, you know, but the

(50:42):
friends and family visiting didso they'd come in see her and
then we walk out to the kitchenand we'd have a hug in tears and
then then they'd go, and thenan hour later, another and I'd
repeat this sort of eight ornine times a day, incredibly raw
, but it's almost like the basiclife, it's like life in the raw
and I almost want to.
It's a bit of a drug, so that'smaybe when I, when I go back to

(51:02):
obviously I wouldn't want herto to die at the end of it, so
savoring the times, I thinkwould be something I'd say.
But you're in it at the sametime.
So you know.
So there's a whole drug regimenand I was in charge of the
tablets, you know, and the alarmwould go off on the phone to
say now you've got to have yournext baclofen or whatever,
whatever the drugs were.
So you know, I think probably Ididn't just spend enough time

(51:27):
just being with her sittingBecause she had all these
friends who wanted to come andsay goodbye, you know, which is
fine, it's really really lovely.
After she died, I had about 300people who wanted to come to the
funeral.
I said how am I going to dothis?
But we had Bearwood College,just through the woods from us,
which is called Redham House nowit's an independent school.
They had a big marquee up fortheir speech day.
So we had the funeral at thecrematorium on the Friday and

(51:51):
then the next day we had a sortof like a like a sort of coffee
morning.
I've had about 300 people there, you know, and they put on a
fabulous buffet and we had loadsof music and stuff like that,
so so that no one wore black forthat, you know.

Claire (52:07):
So that was a really big uh celebratory thing, so that's
a special time, uh, to rememberas well.
One of the things I wanted toask was I know you mentioned it
earlier about hope, but what hashope looked like on this
journey for you?

Richard Smith (52:15):
well, I think I've put a lot of my thinking
into this professional stuff,this work stuff I've been doing
around this people being able tosee what they've got and
feeling a bit less anxious aboutthe future, and doing this
continental tour, as I said, ofcountries who've had these
services.
You know about half thepopulation use these dashboards
at least two or three, fourtimes a year and just the level

(52:35):
of comfort about what, what'sthere and if, if there's not
enough there, you can dosomething about it.
So for me, and particularlybecause of this timing with, you
know, the first media reportbeing on a funeral day, that's
been a bit and I've put a lot ofenergy, uh, into that because I
feel I can, I can contribute insome way to making things a bit
better in in the future.

(52:55):
I, I don't know.
I mean, if you zoom out,there's bigger worries on the
planet, aren't there?
You know, there's really reallya lot of big worries and I, I
think I feel bad again.
But you know, having Gen Zchildren, you know what is the
world if they do get toretirement age in 2066 or 2070,
what is the world going to looklike then?
We don't know.
We've reached 1.5 degrees.

(53:16):
You know it's a real worry, butthis is part of the excitement
as well about this tool, thisservice, because what we found
in testing is when people seetheir three pensions, they say,
well, which one's best?
Where are they invested?
And I don't know if you saw thecampaign Make my Money Matter
that Richard Curtis, thescreenwriter, has founded.
They've said that putting yourmoney invested in sustainable

(53:37):
investments is 23 times theimpact of giving up flying and
going vegan.
So what we do with our money isreally, really important for
the planet.
So that's another reason whyI'm quite keen for people to see
what they've got, so they canthen understand how much damage
it's doing to the planet orhopefully, do something about
that.
I'm quite a big picture sort ofguy and I think for me,

(53:58):
something that's going to havesome significant impact for
decades to come, for lots ofpeople is has been something,
but I think it's only becauseshe's gone.
I don't know, I'm not sure.
Maybe I had the proclivity tobe this sort of person anyway,
but the power of actually tryingto do something in the now has
come about because of theexperience well, to come back to
the commitment compassioncomedy, you said that's not me.

(54:21):
I disagree.

Chris (54:21):
I think from from the little that we know of you I
disagree.
I think that is you.
I think you are channeling thatabsolutely brilliantly well.
So it's been an absolute joy totalk to you and thank you for
sharing so much.
Clearly, you're so eloquent inhow you share so many years of
reflections and wonderings andthinking, so thank you for that.
If you could boil it down intosomething to pass on to somebody

(54:43):
else, something that you'vegrown, you've nurtured, that's
healthy, that you could sharewith somebody else.
That's why we asked this lastquestion which so to you, what's
your Herman?

Richard Smith (54:57):
Well, my Herman is that loss is everywhere
because life happens to everyone, right?
But if I'm right on that, thenthe wonderful upside of that is
that hope is everywhere too, ifpeople can sit comfortably with
their situation in the moment,day to day, with whatever's
happened to them in life orhasn't happened, because, for me
at least, keeping that positivegrief alive, we're continually

(55:21):
reminded of life's uncertainty,and it's that which allows the
door to hope to remain openforever.

Claire (55:34):
Embracing uncertainty isn't easy for everyone, but
Richard has shown us the kind offreedom that can come from
living with that mindset.
There's a Chinese proverb thatsays when the winds of change
blow, some people build wallsand others build windmills, like
Richard was talking about.
We have a choice about what wedo, how we respond, what we

(55:55):
build.
I feel like Richard is a goodexample of a windmill building
person, and we think it'sinspiring to hear people like
that share where grief has takenthem and what they've learned
along the way.
We hope you've had the sameexperience through this episode
and the many others that we'veput out.
What we've learned today isthat maybe grief itself doesn't
have to be a sad thing.
Yes, it brings sadness, but, asyou regular listeners will also

(56:17):
know by now, that's certainlynot all it brings.

Chris (56:20):
If you'd like to find out more about Richard, check out
the show notes for links to theblog he wrote for the Sue Ryder
charity about telling hischildren that their mum was
dying.
More about the pensionsdashboard that he talked about
and the straight line charitywalk he did across the UK.

Claire (56:34):
And for everything else about us past episodes,
resources, blog posts and moreyou can visit www.
thesilentwhycom or find us onsocial media - @thesilentwhypod
.

Chris (56:43):
And don't forget Claire's little hands make wonderful
Herman grief companions.
They're thoughtful, comfortinggifts for people going through
hard times.

Claire (56:52):
Yes, hermans are a great alternative to the usual
flowers, candles or casserolesthat often come with grief or
struggle, whether someone'sgrieving, facing illness,
adjusting to retirement or justfeeling a bit lost and lonely.
Herman is a gentle, meaningfulway to say I see you.
He comes with a flyer thatexplains who he is and why
you're sending him, and you cansee a photo of that on the

(57:12):
website and I can even handwritea personal note to include as
well.
When you send or buy a Herman,not only does someone sad get
the perfect gift to make themsmile and you feel good about
giving them something unique,but also the money goes straight
into supporting the podcast andhelping us keep that going.
And you can buy your Herman orfind out any more details at www
.
thehermancompany.
com.

Chris (57:33):
We'll leave you with a quote that beautifully captures
the spirit of Richard's storyand the hope that can grow in
the midst of uncertainty, frombiographer and novelist Margaret
Drabble.

Claire (57:42):
"When nothing is sure, everything is possible.