Ep. 158: This Will Hurt: But It Might Just Save You

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:13):
Before we jump into this episode withChris Hunt from CO of the West, here's
something for those who want to go deeper.
The Silver Court Club gives you accessto our private podcast, the Outpost plus
free courses insurance, exclusive geardiscounts, and it's an RCMP approved Gun
Club for license, issuance and renewal.

(00:34):
If you value growth, preparedness andcommunity, check it out@silvercore.ca.
Alright on with the podcast,you're gonna enjoy this one.
I'm joined today by an artist,storyteller, and man on a mission.
After years in the creativeworld, including time at Black
Rifle Coffee, he stepped away tobuild something deeply personal.

(00:56):
What started as a simpleInstagram page became a movement.
He's the creator of Code of theWest, a modern guide to living with
honor, grit, and purpose in a worldthat often forgets those things.
His work strikes a chord because it'snot theory, it's lived experience, loss,
risk growth, and a refusal to quit.
Welcome to the SilverCourt Podcast, Chris Hunt.

(01:20):
That
kind of made me emotional, like I don't,I don't think of, I don't think of myself.
Uh, in that way often.
I mean, I, you're, that wasn't inaccurate,but, but it just, it's brother,
that's you.
Yeah.
It's just, uh, yeah, I mean, it, it's,it's me, but it's, uh, you know, I'm

(01:40):
sure you kind of can relate wherelike when you're just in your own
head, you're just chopping wood andcarrying water, so you don't necessarily
stop to think that what you're doinghas any, like, any value outside of
just the activity that you're doing.
Have you, you must have a sense ofthe amount of impact that you're
having on other people's liveswith your book, with your page.

(02:03):
People must be writing in and,and giving you background on, on
how their lives are better, justbecause of what you're putting out.
Man.
Um, I'm probably gonna cry atsome point during this, just so
you know, like, um, but, um, I.
Yeah, I'm getting, I, I get thatsense people, people send me a lot

(02:23):
of dms now and um, kind of goesback to what I was saying just
now, you know, about the intro.
Um, I feel just, I felt compelledto do this and, and, and I
did it with the intention ofhoping that I would help people.
'cause part of Code of the West isjust, this is the way I found my

(02:45):
way back from things and, and then Ilearned a long time ago, but it took
a long time for me to kind of gain thecourage, kinda like a puppy learning
how to bark for the first time.
Um, that, that just sharing and, and,and letting people know that they're not

(03:05):
necessarily the only ones experiencingsomething can have a lot of value to it.
So, um, without getting too personal withany of the people who've sent stuff and.
I get a lot of notes about peoplewho didn't punch their own card
out, um, 'cause of Code of the West.
And then I, I get a lot of just notesfrom people who are just, um, it's, it's

(03:30):
interesting 'cause it's not like peoplewho are saying like, I'm fixed now.
It's people saying, um, I'm, I'm kind ofstaying, you know, I'm sticking around.
And, and, and it's, it's more likethe framework aspect of things,
which is something that I talk, I'vecertainly started talking more about
with Code of the West, you know, this.
It's not just, um, the guru thing, whichI'm not against inherently, you know,

(03:55):
on, especially on social media thatlike, if you do this, you'll fix that.
And it's like, that's not badif you're looking for something.
And, and finding a solutionthat gets the ball rolling.
Great.
You know, but I think it's, um, I'mtrying to not to have a potty mouth.
I'm trying not to have apotty mouth and not cry.
Um,
but, um,

(04:16):
um, it's a, it, it becomes snakeoily I think when you just say,
this will solve your problem.
And, and, and for me, there was nothingthat solved my problem other than just
this quiet evolution of myself thathad to continually occur and play out.
And so it's, well, I think the outsideof the fact that people just sending in

(04:38):
those notes is pretty powerful to me.
It's the fact that like, how they'reresponding is, is, is not so much
like, thank you for fixing something.
It's more like, thank you forpointing out that there's a way out
without necessarily, uh, addressingor specifying a destination.

(04:59):
I think there's a dangerto the idea of fixing.
Something because thatpresupposes that we're broken.
Mm-hmm.
About that.
And oftentimes we're in places there.
You, well, I mean,oftentimes we're gonna be.
People say, I want to be happy, I want tobe successful, I want to be, you name it.
And they'll set that as their, their northstar that they're going to work towards.

(05:24):
And that's an unachievable goal whenthey start realizing that happiness
is a byproduct of the process.
You don't, you, you can never be happy.
You can never just say, I'mgonna be happy 'cause it.
It puts that carrot in front of you.
Mm-hmm.
And it's always gonna bedangling in front of you.
It's not quantifiable, but it'snot quantifiable because what is

(05:45):
happy today is gonna be differentfrom what's happy tomorrow.
Just like pain.
It's, I love that quote from, uh,the Simpsons where Lisa's like,
this is the worst day of my life.
I've, it's so bad.
And Homer says, oh, sweetie, it'sthe worst day of your life so far.
Yeah.
It reminds me of a different Simpsonsquote that, that I feel like, uh,

(06:06):
actually sums up my life pretty well.
Like, which is, how does it taste Ralph?
It tastes like burning.
It tastes like burning.
That's right.
Oh, I love that.
Well, you know, you said CO tothe West helped bring you back.
Mm-hmm.
Where were you?

(06:28):
It, it, it was, um, it a place that, um.
Was way too comfortable.
Um, for, for as, as, asuncomfortable as it was.
I mean, I, I would say the placethat I was at was almost like an
overlap of two different, differentstates and places in my life.

(06:48):
'cause I've always been, I've very, um,I've always been very sovereign minded.
Uh, I, I, I've always wantedto have my independence.
I've always wanted to kind of do myown thing since a very early age.
And that led to this willingnessto go to ambiguous places and,

(07:10):
and choosing ambiguous paths, likechoosing to be a compa creator.
There's still no like path to that.
You just figure it outif you wanna do it, but.
Um, overlapping with that.
So that was a lot of drive and a lot ofmyopic obsession to, to get somewhere.
Mm-hmm.
In line with that, um, I, um, I had myown challenges and difficulties growing

(07:34):
up, but um, I had my first sort of realadult, or actually I just say real life
challenge when I had a couple of friendsthat died real close to each other
when I was in my mid twenties and, um.
Just the quick version of that is one,one of them got diagnosed with terminal

(07:57):
cancer and he'd kind of hidden himself.
And we, I went with a friend and weliterally threatened, I threatened
to kick the door in, um, on hisapartment if he didn't open it.
And he opened it and he lookedlike a Holocaust victim.
And so we got him to go to thehospital and he just got diagnosed
with terminal cancer there.
And then a friend, a same friend group,a different friend, I called him and

(08:18):
was like, Hey, Lauren's gonna die.
You should come home soon.
And this is a guy who, um, hotrains, you know, like was a busker.
You know, I, I called, we called himtraveling kids in Idaho when I was
growing up, but like a hobo basically.
And so I was like, let me, yeah,yeah, let me, let me buy you a bus
ticket back and, and come see Lauren.
'cause they say it's gonna belike six months and it's not.

(08:40):
I just know it's not.
And which was true.
And he's like, no, no.
I'm gonna hop a train back andI need to think about this.
He died on a train, uh, comingback, um, outside of Portland.
So, which is kind of funny 'cause Michaelwas the one that died on the train.
Um, he had a habit of like,living bigger than everybody else.

(09:00):
And so when Lauren was like, dyingon a morphine drip, we're like,
Hey, Michael beat you to the punch.
He's like, uh, fucking Michael.
Like, um, which is just sort ofthe nature of our friend group.
But that was a part ofalso this whole thing.
And this will make sense in the end.
Um, I, when we got together and,and found out that Lauren was dying,
I basically told everybody, he'slike, look, we can't teach him like

(09:21):
a pariah or treat him like a pariah.
We gotta help 'em die.
Well, you know, and treat'em with the same dark.
Honest humor that we treateach other all the time with.
And so we, we let him die withdignity as a friend group, but
we didn't process anything.
And then Michael died in the middle of it.
And it just led to this cascading effect,not just for myself, but for pretty much

(09:45):
this entire tight knit friend group.
We still, a lot of us are stillfriends, but it's not the same thing
that it was because we all got testedand challenged and um, some of us got
through it, some of us didn't, andsome of us it got worse for them and
then they're not here anymore either.
You know, it led to this chainof, uh, alcoholism and suicide.

(10:07):
'cause these people were really well lovedand, and, and, and affected us, you know?
'cause we were all young anddidn't expect it to occur.
So this is a long way of saying thatthe place that I was in prior to
sort of coming back to this frameworkthat I had as a kid growing up,
which is what I call the Code ofthe West, is, um, I was in this.

(10:29):
Holding two seemingly contradictorythings at the same time, which was moving
ahead like a freight train in my lifefor my career, while also just suffering
like emotionally and, and not reallyunderstanding how to process this stuff.
And, and both of those sort of putme into a place that I would say,

(10:54):
um, was oftentimes confusing activitywith achievement and, um, certainly
wasn't me living in a complete way.
You know, uh, to sum this up,I would say that like I did not
know how to human very well.
You know, I think you'renot alone there, right?

(11:15):
I don't think there's a lot ofpeople who don't know how to Yeah.
Um, and it's, you know, you talk about,I. I, I really like what you said there.
Let him die.
Well.
Mm-hmm.
And everybody tends tolook at, how can I live?
Well, not many people reframeit in a way, like, how do I die?

(11:36):
Well, 'cause really, if you look atit every day, we're marching towards
an inev, an inevitable outcome.
How do we die?
Well, what legacy are we leaving?
How are we impacting those around usthrough our thoughts, words, and actions?
And that's where I see Code ofthe West really helping people.
And that's a, it's a veryinteresting, subtle reframe.

(11:57):
And when you, when you think about,so you talk about suicide, suicide
sends a very strong message.
Mm-hmm.
And one of the more powerful things thatI have seen in regards to suicide, it's
an individual's ability to try and havecomplete ownership over a situation.
Mm-hmm.

(12:17):
Because they feel overwhelmed.
They feel like they're notwanted, they're not loved or the
world be better off without 'em.
But whatever they're feeling,I've never seen that go away.
When they take their life, it justgets transferred and oftentimes
amplified by those around them.
Mm-hmm.
And that reframe as well, when you thinkabout not how am I living, but how am

(12:39):
I dying and what is my impact gonna be?
That's often enough to keeppeople thinking like, maybe
I should rethink this.
I don't like this pain, but clearlyI must be strong enough if I'm being
burdened with these challenges.
And if I can overcome these challengesin a way that shows strength, resolve
grit, will I help others in the same way?

(13:02):
And that's
a framework though.
If you don't have thatframework, it's just pain.
Mm.
Well, it's not just pain, but youknow, it's an oversimplification.
But I think, you know what I mean?
A hundred percent.
I know.
Was that the idea when you started Codeof the West or was it a tool that you
built for yourself that kind of grew?
It?
It was a byproduct of, um, sortof the mindfulness that I had to

(13:26):
employ and, and, and just tricks.
I mean, I, I, my, my, uh, lack ofability to human well is, is sort of
endemic of just the way my brain worksand I've made it sort of a hobby to try
to understand how I might be different.

(13:46):
Um, I finally got my brain scanned,um, when I was at Black Rifle.
Uh, we were, um, gonna enlist in this,um, sort of pilot program to use magnetic
resonance to help with PTSD and traumaticbrain injuries and um, 'cause everybody
I worked with were like Navy Seals.
Green Berets, um, and combatveterans like from G Watt.

(14:10):
Right.
And, um, so I was gonna be the controlone of the controls in the, in, in this
thing where I put the halo on and they'remeasuring my alpha, beta and theta
waves and like he is the normal one.
Come on.
Yeah.
When I, when the, the scientistcalled me, he's like, yeah.
Um, so like we, we've gotsome stuff to talk about.

(14:31):
Um, and, and my brain just as it turnedout is, which wasn't really news to
me, but it, it was, um, a relief wasthat like, it, it just doesn't work
normal doesn't mean that it's bad.
It just doesn't work normal.
And, and so there was a little bit of timebefore that really kind of before I came
to Black Rifle or went to black rifle,where I was starting to realize that.

(14:54):
Okay, I need to make changes.
You know, like I can't drink half abottle of bourbon every day, um, just
to shut my brain down, um, at night.
Mm.
And sleeping was alwaysa big issue for me.
Like, I mean, I, I have a hobby for thepast, like 20 years of like figuring
out the best methods to go to sleep.
And it's taken me almost, I mean, I'llbe 40 in a few months, I would say, up

(15:15):
until I was about 37, to be able to fallasleep within 15 minutes of going to bed.
Usually it would take hours andI mean hours to go to sleep.
And I mean, a lot of that was sort oflike exploring meditation and mindfulness
techniques and things that were, likethings that you could do while you
were awake or are often done when they,they weren't, they weren't meant to be

(15:39):
like, here's how you can go to sleep.
It was just me testing thingscontinually, which is also
sort of a byproduct of my life.
And, um, and so the thing that, soCode of the West sort of resulted.
In the intersection of how do I kindof crawl back because I crawled for
a while, you know, like after Laurenand Michael died, I went and did

(16:03):
trail maintenance for a hitch in theWenatchee, and then immediately went
to New York City like three weekslater and, um, moved there for comics.
So I, I like literally came from asituation where I was standing next
to Alpine Lakes watching ridge linescatch on fire from Lightning, having
conversations with my friend about.
What do we do?
We're 70 miles back.

(16:24):
How are we gonna get out of thisto like carrying the same osprey
pack into Washington Square Parkto get on the subway to go to the,
the apartment I was gonna live in.
And, um, and so there's alwaysbeen this, um, sort of movement
forward that I've had in my life.
You know, I, I would crawl basically,even if I couldn't stand up and

(16:46):
walk towards the light or movement.
I knew that like, and this is somethingthat got echoed by the people and the
friends that I have at Black Rifle now,you know, that movement equals life.
Like if you just sit, I mean, I knowif you're lost in the woods, you're
supposed to kind of sit still, but like,uh, you know, certainly in firefights
and that sort of thing, like you, ifyou just sit down and give up, you're

(17:06):
probably not gonna do very well.
Um, and, and so it, it just, code ofthe West is sort of just a confluence
of a number of different things.
Not to mention it just was a way ofhonoring the people that raised me.
And how I
was raised.
So, so I'm, I'm curious.
I've been taking notesas you go through here.

(17:27):
Yeah.
'cause I, I will, my A DHD kicksin and I'm, I'm all over the board
boy, so try, try to keep things.
Thank you.
I ramble, so I'm sorry.
Uh oh.
I love it.
Um, you brought up some importantones that I didn't want to, uh,
uh, didn't want to gloss over.
And I do want to talk with the childhoodone because I think we probably can share
some funny stories on that one based onour preamble before we started recording.

(17:50):
But, um, sleep.
So I was up at aroundzero 200 this morning.
I think I got back tosleep around five o'clock.
And then, um, that's not a normal for me.
And then I was up again, probablyabout seven, knowing that I
had to be bright-eyed and bushytailed and ready for, uh, for the
podcast that we're doing here.

(18:11):
Mm-hmm.
I've never had a problem falling asleep.
You lucky son of a bitch.
Get a cup.
However, staying asleepis a different story.
It's very beneficial when I'm outhunting because getting up early, going
out and I'm, I'm my mind's going andI'm switched on and it's like what I
do to fall back asleep is probably.
Counter to what theexperts would tell you.

(18:32):
I'll do, uh, puzzles and brain gameson my phone, which is number one,
stimulation number two, it's blue lightand you're on a device or whatever it is.
But for whatever reason,that's one thing that helps.
And then when I'm like, okay, I am at apoint where I can kind of fall asleep.
The other thing that I, and I forgetwhere I pick this one up, but I
find it useful, is I will hyperconcentrate on very small things.

(18:56):
For example, I will think aboutwalking out my front door.
What does the doorknob feel like?
What's the green of the wood looklike and the direction of it?
What do the, uh, pebblesfeel on my bare feet?
What is, and like always,what do I pass next?
What do the pillars look like?
What are the, and I'll concentrate onall of these tiny, tiny little details

(19:17):
and try, and I go as minute as I can.
And that for whateverreason shuts my brain down.
So I'm not thinking about all theseother things that are coming in
and it kind of laser focuses it.
Interesting.
What do you do to fall asleep?
Not that pretty much the opposite.
Okay.
Um, that's thing interesting because,so one of the things that I learned

(19:38):
with that brain scan is that, um, toput it in the most, like basic terms, my
brain just takes in a shit ton of data.
Um, and, um, and it doesit at a pretty fast clip.
It's not an intelligence thing,it's just, it's just straight
up a data correlation thing.
And so, um, what I, what I hadto do for a number of years.

(20:01):
When I was younger anyways, I wouldjournal before I went to sleep, um,
and, and, and try to get everything outthat, um, had lingered, you know, 'cause
that's usually what I, I'd get caught upin these loops of thinking about things.
And then as I got older in, in mylife, I was able to engineer my life
towards the things that I wanted to do.
So, you know, I was, I waswriting and drawing comic books,

(20:21):
you know, for a long time.
That was a dream.
So a lot of the anxieties andthings that I'd been thinking
about that would keep me awake werelike the what ifs of the future.
So as the future became the present,um, it became more about, um, it
became less about those specificthings that I was fixating on and
more of the, the habit of like.
How do I not dwell on things at night?

(20:44):
And so, um, I realized over the yearsthat, um, I had to sort of let go of, of,
of things as I'd went to sleep, you know,because I would hyperfocus I would do
the thing you're describing by default.
And so I had to sort of like figureout a way to, I, I describe it as like

(21:07):
going through the office and turning allthe lights off, um, and, and just sort
of like closing up shop for the night.
And, um, and so I would,it's a distinction.
It's, it's, so rather than go look forsomething, I would sort of step away
from something and, and I would engineerthe last few hours of the day to sort

(21:29):
of like know how to let go of things.
Know I be, I got good at knowing what,what got hooked, hooked, hook me at night.
And so I'd be like, okay, I'm gonna.
I'm just gonna go ahead and do this thing.
I'm gonna go ahead and do the thingthat's gonna give me anxiety, you know?
Um, you know, maybe it's sendin an email or, um, whatever.
Um, but then the actual internalthing that started happening was I

(21:52):
started, I had always been interestedin meditation just 'cause of the
brain stuff that I had going on,and I wanted to be a Jedi grown up.
Um, so I wanna be likeLuke Skywalk, who doesn't?
Yeah, right.
I mean, any reasonable person.
Yeah.
Um, and uh, so I started using sort ofmeditation techniques to sort of just
like zone out and try to like, 'causeonce I, I identified the fact that

(22:14):
my brain just didn't wanna shut down.
Um, or I wasn't, I wasn't.
Accommodating my brain shutting down.
Uh, I started finding ways to sort of likecreate a, a structured, um, almost like
falling backwards, like into like, intolike a, like a dead man's float mentally.

(22:36):
And, um, and so I, for a longtime what I would do is I'd count
backwards from 500, which I know itsounds like really ridiculous, but
it would just be something for me.
It would be something that I could,like structurally get lost in.
Like, I didn't have to, it was, itwas something that kind of kept,
I. Me on a track one thing while,while sort of just getting wrote.

(22:58):
And I eventually just, you know,I, I, I can't explain this,
but I get to about four 70.
I'm like, I don't want togo any lower than that.
I'm just gonna go back over and start overat 500 and start counting back down again.
And I'd usually fall asleep bylike the third or fourth time.
And then now, um, this is gonna soundkind of funny and probab and I hope not
sacrilegious, but like I pray at nightinstead of doing the numbers thing.

(23:24):
And, and so like, I don'talways get to the Amen.
Uh, but like I'm, I'm basicallygoing, this is my version of the
don't, don't fixate on the anxiety.
It's more like, what am I grateful for?
What am I, um, well mostly that,like what am I grateful for?
Like, and, and it's things that are not.

(23:44):
Big.
And I think that's part of the reasonwhy before we started talking, before
we started recording where I, I waslike, I don't really know what it's
like on the outside of this because
Mm.
I've fortunately gotten to a pointwhere like, I don't give a shit
about most of the things thatpeople would probably care about.
Um, I sleep in a bed and I'm gladto have a bed because I've slept

(24:10):
in places where I didn't have that.
I mean, and you obviously hunt.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I know the value of a comfortablerock, uh, when you've worked for 15
hour days going up and down a mountain.
Um, and, and so the things thatI think about and pray about, and
I, and I I have this, I don't likeasking for things when I pray.
Um, it's more like thinking aboutlike, Hey, if I can, if I can

(24:36):
go in this direction, you know,if, if, if I can be of help.
Moving this way, it's more like, I'mnot trying to trick God or the universe.
It's just that like I just realize thatlike there's things that I, like, the bad
things get me to the good things, and soI don't have the big picture all the time.

(24:57):
So it's, I, I feel like I, it's sort ofa little rude to ask for specific things
because I'm probably silly and, and notseeing the big picture and don't know,
well, of course I'm not seeing the bigpicture, so it's like, it's more like
asking for help to just go where I need togo and, and being grateful for what I got.
Like, you know, most of the timeit's like, thanks for knowing

(25:21):
one that I love dying today.
Again, thanks for the bed.
Mm-hmm.
Thanks for the fact that I get to walkoutside and see Serk Mountains in the
distance and you know, go walk across 20acres of property, you know, from on the
property that I'm renting for my family.
Um, it's stuff like that.
And so that's, for some reasonthat's really, it's a groovy spot.

(25:45):
I, I don't know how to describe it.
Like, it's just, I get to saygoodnight with God, basically,
you know, that is a groovy spot andas you describe it, so I've tried
the talk backwards thing, the countbackwards, but then I'm goal oriented.
Mm-hmm.
And I'll start again, and I'llstart again 'cause I lose track,
but I gotta make it down to zero.

(26:05):
And, and I got this drive that like, Ican do this and it's a weird thing, but.
It sounds not dissimilar frommy process of trying to remember
my childhood home and the carpetand the what color and the smell.
It's taking your mind and hyperfixating on something aside from all

(26:25):
of this sensory input that's coming in.
'cause I love to create and I love,I get these crazy ideas that come in
at all times, but that hyper fixationprocess of something that's completely
outside of like, I'm not interestedin recreating my, my childhood home.
Right.
I tell you something interestingthough, like along the lines of this.

(26:46):
Um, so when I'm drawing and writing,I'll spontaneously have really vivid
memories from all over the place.
You know, different areasof my life, childhood.
And it's like I'm there, not likein a flashback way, but um, just
remembering it from the first person.
And one of the things that happens alot of times when I go to sleep now is.

(27:10):
And this is gonna sound reallyweird, and I hope it doesn't
sound like scary, but memories.
And also, so I'm not a musicalperson, but, um, three things happen
a lot of times that I can't explain.
One is I'll just startwatching things happen.
Like I'll, I'll start watching memoriesand then sometimes I will be listening

(27:35):
to music I've never heard before, thatsomehow I'm creating, which I don't know
how to even explain this very well, butit's like, it's not like I'm listening to
like Lady Gaga as a soundtrack in my head.
It's like, I'm.
And maybe it's just theimpression I'm listening to music
that I've never heard before.
It's, and it's not actual music,although I have recordings of waking

(27:57):
up and humming it, um, just becauseI thought it was interesting.
Um, but I, I, I, yeah,I'm not a musical person.
I love music, but I, I,I don't create music.
And then sometimes I just go andI watch stories unfold, and it's
like, I'm aware of the fact thatlike, I'm not controlling it.
I'm just watching and I'm not asleep yet.

(28:17):
I'm just, it's like my, it's like theca the best way I can put it is there
was this sort of like, I always feltlike there was a chaos in my brain, you
know, when I was trying to go to sleep.
There just shit happening everywhere.
Mm-hmm.
And, and I would try to controlit and try to tamp it down.
When I, when I basicallywas like, you know what?
I'm just going to get a bucket ofpopcorn and just look at the chaos.

(28:41):
I realized it really wasn't chaos, it wasjust, I. Unstructured things happening.
And, and I would just, it wasinteresting, you know, and so it's
like, rather than fight my brain, Ijust sort of like laid down in the
lazy river and just saw what I saw.
I, that is really cool because there'ssomething, I don't know, we don't

(29:03):
have the answers to everything and wetalk normal, like what's a nor, right.
What's, what's a normal brain hunter?
I
don't think that we're solving anything.
Well, I mean, if you look at me uptop, I'm kinda like a duck right now.
My leg is going up anddown a mile a minute.
I don't belong in confined wallsin a, in front of a desk, in a,

(29:26):
um, in a situation like this, um.
I'm, I'm not, I belong in an areawhere there's vast space around me.
Mm-hmm.
That's when I, my body tendsto, tends to calm down.
I got all these inputscoming in all the time.
I was diagnosed withsevere A DHD as a kid.
I was put on the highest dosesof Ritalin that they had in the
province, apparently as an a, um, hey,

(29:49):
well, I mean, you might aswell set some record somewhere.
That's right.
There you go.
It was an experimental run.
I took myself off, but like, itwas from grade three to grade
seven, took myself off cold Turkey.
I'm like, that's it.
I'm done with this.
Right?
Mm-hmm.
But the, the inputs that we have comingin is, you know, sometimes you look at it

(30:11):
like how much is actually unique thought.
How much is us seeing something orreinterpreting something or, uh.
We don't have the luxury that people,way back in the day, the ancient Greeks
would sit around and philosophize andjust think on singular subjects for
long periods of time, and it'll comeup to us now in a TikTok feed and we'll

(30:33):
make a tweak on that and feel likewe've, we've invented something new.
I don't know if there's much new actual,original things out there, maybe new
ways of looking at it, but perhapshow our brains are picking it up.
Maybe you are tapping into afrequency out there that uh, uh,

(30:53):
artists and creative people likeyourself can, can use the fuel.
I think it's kind of neat.
And the other thing,
oh, go ahead.
You go ahead.
Go ahead.
I'll go back to this.
O
Okay, I'll, I'll tell a story.
Don't forget your funny thing 'causeI want to hear your funny thing.
So, so we're talking about memories.
Um, and I've done work as a subject matterexpert for all levels of court in Canada

(31:14):
here on use of force firearms or weaponsrelated issues and keeping credentials up.
You do use of force experts, uh,workshops and seminars, and sometimes
they talk about how memoriesare formed and how oftentimes we
are our own worst, uh, witness.
And the memories can be completelydifferent from different perspectives.

(31:35):
Mm-hmm.
Sometimes people will block things outentirely and there's lots of parts of my
childhood that I, I just don't remember.
Uh, I remember riding the bus toa school and the Oklahoma City
bombing was in the news and I wasreading this newspaper and I had what
they call it, a flashbulb memory.
And I. I was like a child in a roomthat was completely engulfed on fire.

(32:01):
And I came home and it just feltreally weird and very strong.
And I interesting askedmy mom and I said, yeah.
I said this really weird thing.
And I was in this room, wascompletely engulfed in fire.
And she says, well, yeah, you wereat a, uh, sleepover at your friend's
house and their Christmas tree caughton fire and you guys were all up.
The firefighters came inthe middle of the night.

(32:22):
And I blocked all of that out.
But in my memory, I can remember therewas a fishbowl with matches in it.
And I don't wanna think it, butI'm wondering how that tree lit
on fire caught on fire and Right.
And why maybe that memory was blocked out.
Yeah.
But as she says, when I was dropped off,uh, I would just, they'd plunk me down
on the ground and I'd stare at the wall.

(32:42):
They'd pick me up and moveme and stare at the wall.
And like, was he abused?
Like what happened?
Right.
And went back the next dayand they talked to them.
I didn't want to get out of thecar for whatever reason and.
Um, so who knows what was going on there,but the way memories are formed and how
much of that memory is actually accurate.
If I had to blocked so much of that out.
It is interesting.

(33:03):
So I wanna hear your, oh, well, I wasgonna say, um, when you were saying
how, you know, what I might be tunedin with as a creative or an artist,
um, I'd always had, I'd always had thisaversion to referring myself as an artist.
Although I will say, I think now Iwould consider myself that because
I'm actually trying to say somethingthat's subjective and, and unique to me.

(33:24):
But when I talked to the scientistafter he scanned my brain and he was
like, um, you know, telling me basicallywhy I was a bit of an odd duck.
He's like, what do you do?
A black rifle?
And I was like, oh, wellI'm the art director.
I have like a group of.
You know, pirates underneath meand we make coffee bags and stuff.
And why?

(33:44):
He's like, because your brain looksand behaves like an engineer's brain.
Not what?
Because
they, they'd scanned a lot ofpeople's brains by this point,
and it wasn't, this is not like a,um, uh, uh, an astrology reading.
And they didn't present it as like mm-hmm.
Empirical evidence.
They were just saying, Hey,we, this is what we've done.
We've scanned all these different brains.

(34:05):
This is what they did.
If we look at like, you know, 99% ofpeople who are engineers or scientists,
people who have that kind of, uh,predilection towards, um, building
things, their brain looks like yours.
The brains of people who aresupposedly the artists look like
something completely different.
And so, um.

(34:26):
That's the weird hybridthat I've always been.
And that's part of also this wholething with Code of the West of
like, I just didn't fit in anywhere.
And, and I think that's part ofthe reason why I sort of sought
this sovereignty for myself.
'cause the world loves tocategorize things and box you
in and tell you what you are.

(34:47):
Sure.
It's a DHD.
It's, uh, I had, I, I was supposed to,when I was supposed to be learning how to
speak as a child, I had ear infections.
So I thought I could talk becauseI was modeling what I'd heard.
Turns out I'd,
I was talking
gobbly goop, so I had to go to adeaf school when I was supposed

(35:08):
to be learning how to read.
So that by the time that I showed up infirst grade, I guess you just aren't,
I remember thinking this as a kid.
The teacher didn't teach us how to read.
She just was like, go andread this simple book.
You know, see Jane Run or whatever.
Mm. And I was like, I can't read.
And she's like, well, Iguess you sucks to be you.
She told my mom that, um, he's not gonnalearn how to read and he's probably

(35:32):
not gonna make it through school.
And kind of, sorry.
Mm-hmm.
And that was that.
Mm-hmm.
And I, I just panicked 'cause Ididn't clearly know how to read,
but I knew that it was important.
Like my grandpa had abasement full of books.
And I just knew that I needed, Ineeded that information and, and my
mom was pretty transparent with me.

(35:54):
She's like, this is what they're saying.
This is what we're gonna figure out.
And I was just brow beaten.
And my grand, I was cryingon my grandpa's waterbed.
I don't know know, people might notknow what a water bed is, but it's
basically a big balloon you slept on.
And I was crying so hard that I was likerocking in a wave on the, on the waterbed.
And he's like, we're gonna figure it out.
My mom said the same thing.
And I got into a remedial readingclass and within weeks I was reading.

(36:19):
And, and and outta spite for this womanwho I won't name, but I remember her name,
well, who was my first grade teacher.
I just, I don't know if you hadbook it in, in Canada, but Pizza
Hut had this program back inthe day where if you, yes, okay.
I slayed book it.
I absolutely destroyed book it.
I was
getting personal pan pizza.

(36:40):
'cause you
get the pizza.
Yeah, just um, getting personal panpizzas like left and right and it
was just like out of spite, justpure, pure elementary school rage.
And, and so I consumed so manybooks that by the time I was
about second to third grade.
I was reading Kenneth Roberts, I don'tknow if you're familiar with him.
Um, he, uh, wrote the Northwest PassageAndra in Arms, um, was mostly like a,

(37:05):
uh, 18th century historical fiction guy.
I would basically is put to put itto you, is simply, I was reading
way above my reading level, butmy, the reason why I bring this
up is not to brag about, you know,reading adult books when I was a kid.
It is to say that like the adultsor an adult in my life said, Nope,

(37:25):
this is the category you're in.
Um, you are not smart.
You didn't show up smart,therefore you remain not smart.
And, and so that was probablythe first moment in my life where
I'm like, don't trust the adults.
Do what you have to do.
And I was obsessed with TeddyRoosevelt from a really early age
because of the Young Jones Chronicles.
Again, I don't know ifanybody remembers that.

(37:46):
Mm-hmm.
But there was an episode where
Uhhuh
Indie goes to Africa and meetsTeddy and I just became enamored.
And he had asthma.
Like I had asthma.
And I was just like, I'm gonnajust do the Teddy Roosevelt thing
and just, um, I'm gonna, again,I'm not gonna talk like a sailor.
So I'm trying to thinkof a way of say this.
I'm gonna physically exert my, my willupon the world around me and, and attempt

(38:12):
to, um, go to uncomfortable places in aneffort to be the thing that I want to be.
And, you know, I might fail, youknow, like, um, probably, but, um.
I mean, we're talking foundationally,I was just like, Hmm, no, no, bro.
Like I'm not feelingthis whole asthma thing.

(38:34):
I'm not feeling the not reading thing.
I'm gonna go and do,I'm gonna at least try.
And I, it's terrifying in a weirdway to look back at this and go like,
for one, what, why am I this way?
Like, what compelled me to defiantlysay No, I'm going to figure this out.

(38:56):
And alternatively, what would've happenedif I didn't, if I hadn't had that?
And so that's part of the impetus ofCode of the West is just like, uh,
you might be 40, you might be 70,you might be 17, you might be six.
Hopefully not, but, you know,reading Code of the West.
But, um, it's like I'm hoping, eventhough I can't name that sort of mojo

(39:18):
woowoo thing that I'm talking about,I'm not gonna worry about the fact that
I don't know what it is and I can't.
Perfectly put it in a cam and, and tryto sell it or present it to people.
It's more like, hopefully I canjust sort of in whatever way, shape,
or form, like pass on the, uh,honorable, yet defiant, um, sovereign

(39:43):
sense of myself to other people,
you know?
Okay.
I'm taking notes as we go through here.
You're bringing up a lotof really cool parts.
Yeah.
Sorry.
Uh, no, this is awesome.
I'm sit around and think, I mean, there'sclearly, and there's so much value in
what you're, when you're putting outand you're able to distill that through

(40:06):
your Instagram feed and provide peoplethat same value on a daily basis.
'cause not everybody has the abilityto sit around and think a lot.
I think everyone, theyare very lucky for that.
Uh, most people,
well, most people have thecapacity, not everyone.
Sure.
But most people have thecapacity, not, not everybody.
And maybe that's notthe right way to say it.

(40:26):
Not everyone has ability,because I know your audience
will know too.
It's, it's, it's, it's, it's,it's predilection, you know?
It's like I, I think mm-hmm.
Not to get off your thing.
I just, I'll say real quick about drawingor writing or anything, or hunting, people
will say like, oh, I wish I could do that.
I wish I had your talent.
It's like, yeah, you could, ifyou, if your interest aligned
with what I'm doing, you wouldobsessively learn how to do it too.

(40:50):
Mm-hmm.
And again, happiness wouldbe a byproduct of that.
Mm-hmm.
Of the work that you're putting in.
I was asked to speak at a universityin California, and um, I was talking
with the doctor, professor ahead oftime, and I. And, uh, you know, about
the idea what one man can do, anotherperson can do, and he brought up

(41:10):
some very valid points about peoplelike with severe schizophrenia, maybe
they're not gonna have the same tools.
I'm like, okay.
Or bipolar or something like that.
Fair enough.
Right.
I, I wasn't, I wasn't maybe lookingat it in the same way, what one
person can do, most people can do.
Mm-hmm.
Or at the very least, I think everybodycan look at their current position and
say, how can I take that one small steptowards something that's desirable in

(41:35):
my life, which I'm not doing right now?
Mm-hmm.
So it doesn't necessarily mean thateveryone's gonna be a star athlete, where
everyone's gonna be a great thinker, butwherever they are right now, tomorrow
they can be one small step closer.
And if they don't do that stepthe next day, but they do it again
the day after that, not to beatthemselves up because the macro of

(41:56):
those tiny little steps is crazy.
Yeah.
The best time to plant a tree
was 20 years ago.
The next best time to do it is today.
It is
right today.
Well, you talk about labelsand how harmful labels can be.
Uh, so I was diagnosed severe A DHD.
Mind you, even to this day, despitehaving a lot of, um, indicators

(42:18):
that would suggest that I have,that I still question, although
some of my family and friends wouldsay, no, no, you, you got it right.
But I still question.
I am 40 se 46, turning 47.
Okay.
So you're a few years older than me,but we're, I think, pretty much dealing
with the same level of as assessment.

(42:38):
You know, at the time a DHADHD is kind of, that probably
we're in that era of like,
Hmm,
give him some Ritalin.
That's right.
That's a hundred percent what it was.
So I remember one person saying tome, uh, is there ever, has there
ever been a time in your life whenyou didn't feel like you had a DHD?
Because almost every single dayyou talk about music in the head,

(43:00):
there is a constant washing machineof sound and music that's playing
as you're talking right now.
Um, Bjork did a song called Pluto, Ithink it is, and it's not a great song,
but when I listened to it, it's like,that's kind of the feeling that I hear
in my head constantly in the background.

(43:20):
Has there ever been a time when Idon't feel that well, well, yeah,
actually, and I list off a few differenttimes when I haven't felt that.
And they say, well, if that's thecase, then do you really have a DHD?
Like if you have these times, when you'reable to have everything calm and in tune.
And those times are generallyalways when I'm out in nature.

(43:44):
Maybe it's just a natural responseof your body being physically in a
place where your mind isn't, whereyour mind isn't at ease or at rest.
That's an, that's aninteresting way to look at it.
That But the the, I'm sorry.
Go
ahead.
Go ahead.
I was gonna say, the worrisomething about labels is that
so many people buy into them.

(44:05):
I mean, people are like, well,I'm gonna go get my kid diagnosed.
I'm pretty sure they got the tsm.
Well, maybe they do, right?
But maybe diagnosing them just gives theman out where they never want to try again.
For some reason, you and I had thatdrive within us to say, screw you.
I'm pushing forward.
I don't care what you say.
And for me, I think it wasdeeply rooted in sort of an

(44:27):
oppositional defiance sort of, um.
Uh, perspective, uh, where I wouldcomply without capitulating because
I want to do things my own way.
Come hell or high water.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and that built into something thatisn't the easy path, but it creates a path

(44:47):
that I can be, at least I can call my own.
Mm-hmm.
And I can be proud of
you.
You bring something up there that atthe end that I think is, as, as we're
talking about this, I'm thinking about it.
I had a very strong sense of myidentity as, as Chris Hunt, you
know, at an, as an early age.
And, and what I mean by that is that likeI, I never really viewed myself sort of in

(45:13):
a meta awareness way as a part of a unit.
I just always viewed myself as Chris,like a brain and jar basically.
Not that I'd had thatlanguage at that time.
So like.
It never really occurred tome that there's like a one
size fits all for anything.
And, but people not only want the easeof the explanation, but they oftentimes
want the identity that goes along with it.

(45:34):
'cause it also makes thatpart of it easier too.
Mm-hmm.
Even with the m it's, it's almostbecome, even just saying that as
much as I enjoy saying that m um.
Right, right.
And it, it, and, and, and I'vetaken this, I've probably taken
a half dozen self-assessments andit's 50 50, you know, every time.
Sure.
And, um, it, which, okay, if it was oneway or the other, it doesn't matter to me.

(45:56):
It's just more like, okay,this is a data point.
But I think that you and I, itsounds like we, we didn't, like, I
never really wanted to belong in agroup, but I was curious to be in a
group, like I wanted to have friends.
Mm-hmm.
I wanted to be, feel belongingto something, but I didn't wanna
lose my identity alongside of it.

(46:17):
And, and it seems like every,not everybody, but from an
early age, it seemed like.
A lot of the people around me wanted toidentify in, not only in simple terms,
but in ways that allowed them to justsort of, um, group by osmosis in a way.
Like, you know, where it's like,Hey, hey, I don't have to really

(46:38):
fight to be, to have my people like,I mean, we're humans, we're tribal.
We want, we want the support.
We don't wanna get kicked awayfrom the fire, how we want
to be invited by the fire.
Mm-hmm.
I'm, I feel like I'm the personwho would've been like a strider,
you know, and Lord of the Rings orsomething, you know, I'd have, I
would've been that person where it'slike everybody else is sitting around
the fire shivering and, and there'sjust like, why is there like a fire

(47:00):
like 30 feet away in the, in the dark?
And it'd just be like me just thereunder like skins and just like staring
into the fire by myself and likewith maybe some sort of like giant
dire wolf, like next, I don't know.
I mean, like, I'm not, I'mjust saying like, it, it, it.
It, I, I, if, if it means losing myselfversus, uh, appeasing a larger system from

(47:24):
an early age, I was like, fuck the system.
And I don't mean that like in a punkrock sort of way, you know, it, it,
I mean it from like a truly, almost aepistemological way where it's like,
um, it just didn't jive with me.
And, and I, I, I, I wonder 'cause youknow, sometimes, um, evolutionary, uh.

(47:45):
Evolutionary biologists will havethis debate about like, what are, what
are the most beneficial traits forlike, say like a chimpanzee to have?
Is it the ability to create toolsor is it the ability to copy the
chimps that create tools and,
Hmm.
'cause 'cause the logic being that cool, if you have one good invention
and you, you make a, you make a,a flint flake, uh, or a, a flint

(48:07):
knife you can scrape hides with.
Cool.
You contributed something to the better.
You know, go to the, the group of chimps.
If you're the kind of like cleverchimp that's walking around going
like, yeah, okay, a scraper, an ax.
What are you doing withthat at lateral thing?
Um, suddenly you're the super chimp if youcan copy all the different things and the,

(48:28):
I'm not saying that's who I am, I'm justsaying that like, as far as traits go.
Uh, maybe you and I just havesomething different and that's okay.
And I think for a long time I sawthe things that I was struggling
with as weaknesses becauseI was struggling with them.
And as I got older and, and certainlyas I started doing Code of the West,

(48:49):
like Code of the West, actually,beyond just being a framework for
myself is the first time where I'mlike, oh, that's how this could work.
You know, meaning me, like, you know, like
mm-hmm.
The only thing that makes sense to me thatI could do with my life is go to the West
because it is the intersection of writingand drawing and video and, and talking

(49:14):
to people and, and growth and philosophy.
All the things that I've always had tosort of like compartmentalize in my life.
And, and so it's not so much that likeonly I could make code to the West.
It's more like anybody, a lot ofpeople could do what I'm doing.
It's just that for me, Ifinally found the thing.
The structure that the onlykind of structure that would

(49:35):
work for me, basically.
You, you talk about, uh, sure.
I'd want to have friends growing up.
Did you have friends?
Yeah.
Not really.
Uh, I mean, kind of, yes.
But, um, what did you.
No, no, not, I, I had, yeah, I mean,I had, I had, I was around adults.

(49:58):
I was on a truck, you know, soif I wasn't sick in the hospital
mm-hmm.
I was on a, I was on a truckwith my dad in the summertime.
Uh, he was a high value product.
Uh, truck driver did a bit ofhousehold too, but I was going back
and forth across the United States,coast to coast, multiple times a
summer, um, in, in, in a truck.

(50:18):
And so I'd come back, you know, infirst grade, go, go leave, go for the
summer, come back in second grade,and I'd see some of the same faces
and they'd be like, teacher wouldbe like, what'd you do this summer?
And, you know, these kids wouldbe like, we went to Disneyland,
or we went to the Wisconsin Dells.
Mm-hmm.
And they'd get to me and belike, I saw a man die next to the
buffet at the Petro Iron Skillet.

(50:39):
Um, you know, in Indianapolis.
Like, yeah.
You know, or I saw a Mount St.Helen's, you know, uh, like I
almost got kidnapped in New Jersey.
You know, it, it was like.
I didn't know how to talk to kidsas a kid, you know, because Uhhuh
i'd, I'd already, it's like theworld had been trying to kill

(50:59):
me through asthma and allergies.
Um, you know, my, like, I, I'mfighting to learn how to talk.
I'm fighting to learn how to read.
Like, I just kind of ca I waslike an outside dog that showed
up, like in elementary school.
And then they were just like, youneed to kind of just be cool, man.
And I'm just like, I,I got that dog in me.
Like, you know, it's like, I didn't know.

(51:20):
I didn't, I didn't want, I didn'tcare about the Power Rangers or, I
mean, I like Batman and Star Wars.
Um, but sure, I just, I was ready to go.
I mean, you could ask my mom, you know,and she would, would be, she would tell
you that like at eight, nine years old,I was like, man, why can't I have a car?
I just wanna go sit at thecoffee shop and read and write.
Um, I want to go whereI want to go right now.

(51:41):
I wanted agency from a very early ageand, and other kids just wanted to like.
I don't know, like eat pizza and,and watch movies, which is was fun
when I got to experience it finally.
But I didn't really get a frienduntil I was a more like junior high.
You know, I had, I had people whoI had, I'd have sleepovers with or

(52:02):
something every once in a while.
But, um, I just, they weren'tthat interesting to me.
Like I was, I was wantingto prepare for life.
I was wanting to get outand start doing shit.
Mm-hmm.
I, I think, uh, my story is probablypretty similar and what that does
when you have a different lifeexperience and a different perspective,

(52:24):
it puts you on the outside.
And when you're on the outside andhave a personality type that doesn't
necessarily want to be on the inside,it can put you at odds with those social
structures that everyone naturally will,will kind of want to group towards.
And if they can't put a label onyou and understand you oftentimes.

(52:46):
People will fear whatthey don't understand.
Mm-hmm.
And what they fear, they'll,it'll be, they'll reject.
They'll exclude and so they'll exclude.
And so it's no, uh, no slighton the people around me.
I put myself in that situationbased on my own stubbornness and,
uh, not wanting to conform to likea, I'd look at these things and

(53:09):
I'd consider them them childish.
And like when I was in gradefour, I set up, I was reading
college level chemistry books.
'cause I was really interested in makingthings like disappearing ink with phenyl
pha solution, making your own gunpowder,um, nitrocellulose compounds, if it
blew up, had an endothermic, exothermicreaction or it could kind of disappear.

(53:30):
I was that, that was cool.
That was science to me, right?
Mm-hmm.
That's chemistry.
I. And, uh, I had set up a,my grade four teacher is like,
I, I can't control this kid.
So we put, we put puzzles andgames at the back and he can have
his chemistry lab and during lunchbreaks he can teach chemistry.
And so that's what I would do.
That's amazing.

(53:50):
And yeah, that was a good teacher, thatwas a teacher who could realize that,
okay, he's not super great in these areas.
Rather than trying to make him better,we're gonna double down on the things
that he's showing a lot of aptitude for.
Mm-hmm.
And that's something thatI try to do with my kids.
Um, but I also, you know, I don't everwanna lose sight of the fact that,

(54:12):
like I was told I couldn't do math.
I was told that readingwill be a challenge for me.
And like you, I persevered and overcame.
And even in recent years,I look at things like.
The Adobe Suite, how do you use AfterEffects and Premier Pro and Photoshop?
Like this is a completely new languageand one day it's just like, you know what?
I'll do it.
And there's a light bulb switch and I'mproficient enough to put out content now.

(54:35):
So we found the reason to do it,
found the reason there's a properexternal or internal stimulus that,
uh, that that move me forward.
And it's the understanding and peoplelike to talk about neuroplasticity.
It's the understanding that youcan always learn something new and
your brain is always expanding.

(54:56):
Damn, that thing.
Uh, yes, a hundred percent.
Yeah.
No, I get the old, the old MV seven mute.
Um, because I think about theneuroplasticity thing a a lot,
and I've thought about it sinceI was a pretty young person.
And, and I think that I. Like I, I'dalmost, man, like 40 minutes ago, you

(55:18):
asked like, how, you know, where thatplace was that I was in and I didn't
get out of it for like 15 years.
And it, it got to the point where rightbefore I was gonna black rifle and
I told you that I'd, I'd realized itprobably shouldn't drink all the time
and, you know, do these other things.
Mm. I, I, I, I realized that I, I wasliving in an unintegrated way, meaning

(55:42):
that I was, I needed both parts ofmyself in a room, but I had divided
myself into a, like a workaholic.
This thing that we're talking about,this kid growing up, you know, that
is just like, I'm gonna do my thing.
I'll see y'all down the line.
Piece.
Um, that's great.

(56:02):
It works really well to doexceptional things, but it doesn't
do well to be a normal human.
And, um, and, and that's,and you, you see, that's what
we, I missed out on anyways.
I, it was the modeling thatoccurred, um, of like, this is just
how you normal do normal and, um,
mm-hmm.
And so I, I wouldn't, I didn't knowhow to be that obsessive driven person

(56:27):
and also keep my house clean and, youknow, uh, exercise, cook for myself.
And, and I got the inclinationaround 2019 ish that was like, oof.
Like, I don't know how to do.
Basic human things.
And it's embarrassing, youknow, to not know how to cook.

(56:49):
It's embarrassing to, I mean, Iknew how I could do my laundry.
I mean, I knew how to, Iknew how to clean dishes.
But it's like, part of my thing too iswith the cooking is I get overwhelmed,
kinda like with the Adobe suite, whereit's like, I don't, I'd go and try to
look something up on the internet andit's like, I need the foundational
explanation of the logic of a stove top.

(57:09):
Like, I don't know what the hellone through four actually is.
Especially when the recipe'slike, put it on low.
Mm-hmm.
I'm like, what's low?
No one's, that's subjective to me.
Like low could be one low, could be four.
'cause it's below the halfway points.
Mm-hmm.
What does low mean?
And, and so I would get frustrated,just try to do simple things like that.

(57:32):
And, and, and, and I realizedthat I was, I'm gonna have to go
and do what I used to do and I'mjust gonna have to go ask people.
I'm gonna have to, I'm gonna have to be.
Vulnerable enough to be like, Hey, I'mkind of, um, sort of retarded in these
ways, you know, or re retarded in theseways from, from not having, um, been

(57:52):
exposed to them and not for lack of tryingand not for, like, I didn't, my mom got
really upset actually 'cause she thoughtthat she let me down or something and I
was like, mom, you, you were a single mom.
I was a latchkey kid.
You could only do somuch to, to prepare me.
You know, it's like, if, if I didn'tlearn how to cook a pork chop, I,
I did all these other things as abyproduct of what you did teach me.

(58:14):
I can, I can learn how tocook the pork chop now.
But, um, it, it took, ittook the integration and
realizing that I'm actually, I.
I'm not two different people, youknow, it's, I'm not, I'm not a
worker be, and I'm not like thisstunted, you know, um, basic human

(58:37):
that doesn't know how to do things.
It's like, I'm just, Chris.
I'm, I'm a person that knowshow to be driven and doesn't
know how to cook for themselves.
That's the same person.
It's
it for whatever
reason.
And I, for years in my head,saw myself in this, this binary,
dualistic way, and it's like.
Oh, well, I just need to figure out, Ineed to look at it from the perspective of

(58:59):
like, how do I make a better me, you know?
And, and the me that can, can takecare of my space, the me that can
cook for myself, it maybe you'llhave a good effect on my career.
And it did.
But it, it kind of brought me back tothis place where I was like, it brought
me back to that six, 7-year-old versionof me where I'm just like, you know what?
I don't care about a lot of this stuff.

(59:19):
Like, I, I care about like mm-hmm.
His being I on your happiness thing.
I had a friend who was in that friendgroup that lost the two guys and, um, I
was helping her move to Portland and fromBoise and I was driving a U-Haul for,
and um, this is about a year after it hadhappened, and, um, I was like learning

(59:42):
how to fight and mixed martial arts stuff.
It was a weird time.
It was enjoyable, butalso painful at times.
Mm-hmm.
And, um, she's like, Chris,what makes you happy?
Like, that's the question she asked me.
And not, are you happy,but what makes you happy?
And I'm sitting there drivingthat U-Haul and I'm like,
son of a bitch.

(01:00:03):
I can't answer that questionwith a single thing.
And so for, for years after that,which I would say this is another path
towards Code of the West, is that likeI started trying to figure out what
the, that the answers were to that.
And as I started accumulating thingson that list, they weren't big.
It was things like sitting in a roomand reading a book or sitting in a room

(01:00:28):
when it's raining outside, uh, or, uh.
You know, sitting in the grass on aspring day, you know, it was just, it
was like things that were achievable, Ijust didn't make time for, and that was
also kind of like a blow to me when Istarted making that list and realizing
that I'm just not doing these things.
And I'd always been this advocate ofagency where it's like, if you want

(01:00:49):
to, if you have a dream and you want togo and build a, you wanna build your,
your publishing business, or you wannabuild a, a concrete business and you're
not doing it, and you've got two legsand two arms and no excuses, you know,
you could, you could go and do it.
I'm real.
I realized like, man, it's not,I don't even have the ability to
say that I was making excuses.

(01:01:10):
I didn't even stop to thinkabout just structuring something
good for me into my life.
You know, everyone wants to be motivated.
They're like, you know, I'm supermotivated to do something, or I'm
looking for some external motivator.

(01:01:31):
I'm gonna read this book, I'mgonna do whatever it might be.
And I think your Code of the Westkind of hits on a process, which can
lead to motivation through disciplineif we just take those little steps.
Because motivation is fleeting.
Mm-hmm.
Discipline is something thatyou act, it's tangible, it's

(01:01:52):
something that you can control.
And it's some, yeah, it's great.
It's something you could work towards.
And if there's a roadmap in placeand you can say, I'm gonna try
this roadmap a little bit, andyou're not making any promises of
what's at the end of the roadmap.
Well I call the, you're saying is
compass.
It's a compass to me.
'cause a map is predetermined and uh,you know, that's the thing that the

(01:02:12):
gurus and the Instagram pages, I think.
Cell is the map.
And that's like, I, I just, it's,I don't, I don't believe that
everybody's map is the same.
And so I think it's more like, canI, can I, a compass is not biased.
A compass just tells you where North is.
And so it just helpseverybody navigate that.

(01:02:35):
If you know how to read a map, ifyou know where you're trying to go,
the compass helps you get there,but it doesn't tell you where to go.
And that's where I think that a lotof this sort of modern, uh, hustle
grind culture, it's about like, you,you where you want to go, where you
need to go, that's the top of thatmountain where you got, you got million
dollars and you got a hundred thousandInstagram followers and blah, blah, blah.

(01:02:57):
And it's like.
I climbed my mountain in my twentiesgoing into comics, and I, I got
there and I was like, shit, uh, it'snot what I thought it was gonna be.
And, and I wasn't happy.
And then I had to step back andbe like, so if I've spent the
past 17 years building my identityaround my dream, and I got there,

(01:03:20):
I got to my dream and I got it.
I got my comic, my graphic novel, printed,published one reward, and I'm not happy.
I can either double down on not beinghappy, or I can step back and realize,
or I can step back and find a way.
To be happy.
And, um, it's like the sunk cost bias.

(01:03:40):
You know, when you've, like, when you'replaying poker and you're like all in,
or almost all in on a shitty hand, andlike that river comes and you're like,
I'm not gonna lose this and I can'tbluff this, or I'm not gonna win this
and I can't bluff my way through this.
So do you go all in or do you justsave what little bit you have?
And I was like, it was hard, butI was like, I'm gonna have to

(01:04:01):
walk away from comics becausethis is not making me happy.
It's hard choices like that.
The map would tell you, doubledown, keep going, be miserable.
'cause you're just being weak.
You're being, you know, who's gonnacarry the boats, uh, you know,
or who's gonna draw the comics.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and, and it's just like maybeyou, maybe you step back and you
decide you do wanna keep going.

(01:04:21):
That's fine too.
Mm-hmm.
But it's like, I just don't, I don'tad adhere to this, this, uh, notion
that there's one way to do things.
There's, I, I would say that for me,code of the West is just an encouragement
and saying that, like, the one thingthat I know for sure is don't stop
looking for the thing that works.

(01:04:42):
So there's something that I lookat and I try to apply to my life
faster than I have in the past, butit's to stop, regroup, and choose
a more desirable course of action.
Now, that more desirable courseof action might just be on that
same path that you're on before.
Fail fast, fail fast,fail hard, fail often.

(01:05:05):
Do you really?
Yeah.
I believe in that a hundred percent.
I love it.
Yeah.
So many people are afraid of failure.
Why?
And the more you fail, the more yourealize, man, I'm not made outta glass.
Mm-hmm.
I can actually get back up again.
And that's where the strength comes from.
People will look at their failuresand say, well, what are, what

(01:05:28):
will other people think of me?
What will my family andmy friends give a shit?
Or people online.
Yeah, people you've never, never evenmet before, but they're gonna have an
opinion about whatever it might be.
Fail fast, fail far hard, fail off.
And the people who are truly successfulthat I know are the ones who've
tried all these different optionsand failed hard, but gotten back up

(01:05:49):
well on the thing
about
the who cares what peoplethink about you too.
Anyways, I will say, I mean, so, so I'min spitting distance of 300,000 people
on Instagram now, and that's cool.
It's an interesting data point.
I can count on two hands howmany times I've had someone
like get real mean or nasty.
Ever unco to the west inthe comments and, huh?

(01:06:14):
For real.
Like, and I mean, I've had, I've had,I've blocked some people, like people,
if people want to show up and try tostir like the pot, I'm just like, nah,
like juice ain't worth the squeeze.
I'm not gonna feed the troll.
But that's kind of the point, is I don'tgive any fertile ground in there to, um,
to let that stuff sort of foster and grow.

(01:06:34):
And I think that that's a reflectionof my brain, you know, like, 'cause
what you're talking about with like,you know, failing, what's it look like?
People's perception of it.
It's like, well, I, I'm gonna bemy own worst critic no matter what.
I know that about myself.
So there's not much that anybodyelse can make me feel worse about.

(01:06:55):
Now.
I, I, I will, I don'tlike disappointing people.
I will say that.
And if, if, if, if a trollshows up, that's just like, I.
I thought this thing andthen it didn't work out.
And I think, I feel like you lied to me.
There's a mo or not that that happensthat often, but it's like that
framework will kind of bum me outand be like, did I really do that?
Did that sucks?
And if I did do somethingwrong, then I'll admit to it.

(01:07:16):
But, um, it's, it's more likerealizing that, um, it's, you
can't control other people'sperceptions of, of you or your path.
And so social media has thisway of, of sort of hyper
spinning that judgment cycle up.

(01:07:36):
But it also like, that's like a big,uh, what do they call those things
that used to go, we like you spin 'emaround and like they make, and like
they, or they, you could like blow.
Yeah, yeah.
Little clackers.
Yeah.
Like,
okay.
Yeah,
it's movement, it's sound, it'sdistracting, but at the end of the
day it's like, what is that thing?
We can't even remember what it'scalled, but like, I mean, it's a perfect

(01:07:56):
analogy in a way 'cause it's like.
What, what is this like?
I mean, okay, cool.
Like you're making a lot of noise,but like, does this have a value?
Does this have a purpose to it?
Like, 'cause I don't see it.
And so, um, you know, it, it basically,once you remove, when, when you untether
yourself, I found this, I don't know howyou feel about it, but if you untether

(01:08:17):
yourself from these, from the scaffoldingsthat do show up in the frameworks,
um, that, that are kind of just likethere, you know, the, the like, well
this is how we've done it for a while.
So, you know, if you have a, if you havean Instagram account and someone does
show up and they're an asshole to you,you should be an asshole back or not.
Maybe, maybe you're just like, ignore itor maybe you go, well, hey, are you okay?

(01:08:40):
Like, uh, what's going on?
Mm-hmm.
You know, like, or you send 'em adm, you know, be like, Hey, are you,
I know I don't know you, but, um,doesn't seem like you're doing okay.
You know, whatever.
Like, umhmm, we, we have a prescriptive.
Sort of like process or flow tothese things that, especially with
the internet, it's like you andI grew up in, in a different way

(01:09:03):
before the internet showed up.
Like, no elbows in the table,don't wear hats inside.
We're both violating that rule right now.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and there we are.
And well, I got reflection off thetop of my head from the lights.
I just, I'm, I'm look like a crazyperson without a hat on right now.
Like, um, yeah.
Like, but there's this slow gradual,like we adapted, oops, sorry.

(01:09:23):
We adapted to this world.
We weren't born into it.
Uhhuh.
And so it's our responsibility, I feel,and this is part of Code of the West
is, is like people wanna lament and talkabout Gen Z all the time and be like,
oh, they're just always on their phones.
They're always doing this.
It's like, so, so whatare we doing to help?
Them, you know, if, if, if this worldthat they've inherited from us is

(01:09:48):
performative, it's it's judgmental, orthey think that it's performative and
judgmental because the system that they'vebeen born into is this big ass structure
that is just this thing we're spinningaround that doesn't really do anything.
You know?
And so, and, and you know, likeI, if, if, if all we're doing is

(01:10:08):
just saying, oh, you shouldn't putthat much stock in these things.
Well, they're, they're putting all thestock in it because they're not like us.
They literally don't have
mm-hmm.
A frame of reference for what theworld existed like before all of this
existed that we're talking on right now.
The reason why Code of the Westexists, the reason why you have your
platform, you need to, are you good?

(01:10:31):
No, no.
I just saw a shadow moveby and, uh, but I squirrel.
Um, but, but we're good.
I remembered I got a textearlier that someone's gonna
be dropping by the studio here.
Um, I, uh, I, I guess what I'm sayingis, is that like, that's part of this
whole thing is that, um, there's justa, there is no, like, somehow we got

(01:10:52):
this point where all the manners,all the things that we used to grow
up and learn, um, we just decidednot to pass 'em on for some reason.
Um, you know, like, uh, and I don'tknow why, because now we have this giant
megaphone where we can talk to each otherand communicate and instead of being like,
Hey, you know what, it used to be kind of,we, we'll go like old gray mirror sheet.

(01:11:15):
What?
She used to be like, I wish,I wish Canada was like this.
I wish America was like this.
It used to be like this.
Instead, why not?
Why not go like, Hey, thisis what I think it should be.
What are you doing?
Yeah, yeah.
Like, like, or hey, ifyou're struggling with this.
This is, this is something that we usedto do, or this is something that I do do.

(01:11:35):
Um, I'm not saying everybody goesand makes Co of the West or Co of
the East or coast of the CO to theSouthwest or whatever, but it's
like, I, I do do that version ofit, like, you know, or your version.
It's just like how.
Like when you're optimizing forattention, you're not really
optimizing for evolution in any way.

(01:11:57):
You know?
And so you'll see people copying andparroting a lot of these influencers
about here's how you get millionsof dollars and freedom or whatever.
And it's like, okay, I get, I getwhat Gen Z's doing shit like this,
because that's all they're seeing.
They're not, they don't if they don'thave grandpa, I had, you know, I had
grandpas that were self-made and, youknow, in business and I had a grandpa that

(01:12:18):
was just old school, putting your headdown, go to work, get your retirement.
You know, I had examples of, uh, ofpeople around me that had different ways
of going through life and succeeding.
And, um, if we're not trying to,like, this is something I haven't
articulated very well, so I, I'll,I'll kinda leave it at this because

(01:12:38):
it's an incomplete thought, but likewe, we just sort of let the old world.
Dissipate and then thissuperstructure supplanted it
with that, that is the internet.
And then, and then every, all ofus were sitting around going like,
well, why, why is everything broken?
Like, why isn't anythingworking the way that it used to?
It's like, 'cause we sledge hammeredthe shit outta everything and just,

(01:13:02):
and just brushed and we just broomedthe dust of everything that used
to be off the, the foundation.
And we just had this Rube Goldbergoverly complex device that we
used to do really simple things,which is just talk to each other.
And you just hit the nailon the head right there.
And the.

(01:13:22):
The number of people in the youngergeneration that are so hyper connected
through social media, through all thedifferent little apps and Snapchats,
WeChat, whatever the, the differentthings that they're using, but so
isolated from each other at the same time.
And their process that they knowfor interaction is gonna be based

(01:13:44):
on what's been modeled beforethem and what their friends do.
And
I, when you talk about dealing with ahater, somebody comes in with a lot of
negativity and the natural knee jerkresponse is to come in and try and cut
them down or tell them why they're wrong.
It's not yourself.
It's not to stop, regroup, andchoose or explain yourself.

(01:14:04):
No, no, no, no.
This is what I meant.
And then you're suckedinto this trap of it.
To be able to shift that completely.
And one of the easiest ways, you'vejust mentioned it there, you'll
just on the side DM a person.
What I do, so I've, I run acompany, silver Core Outdoors,
we're very, very well reviewed.
But every once in a while you'regonna run it as somebody who's got an

(01:14:25):
issue with something you can't pleaseall of the people all of the time.
And we might so mess
up sometimes too.
Well, and that's it.
And we're not perfect.
And there are times that we've mademistakes and we've mistepped and we
need to hear about it and be able to.
Uh, to move forward in a positive way.
But what I do whenever possible is I findthat person's phone number and I give them

(01:14:48):
a phone call and I'll say, listen, I'mgenuinely curious about your perspective.
If they, if a negative review is leftor an angry email or whatever it might
be, and the staff that work with me,they say, I don't know how you do it.
I, you know, they were so angrybefore and now they were singing
our praises and they love us.

(01:15:08):
And I say, well, it's simple.
I call 'em up and I then I listen andI listen to what they have to say, and
then I say, okay, so let me understand.
Here's what I'm hearing.
Is that correct?
And they'll say, yes,and I'd like to add this.
Okay.
And I write it all down and Isay, well, let's see what we
can do to make this better.
Right?
Or sometimes, sometimesthere's gonna be situations.

(01:15:28):
I remember one girland I said, look at it.
I've, I've looked, you've got apattern of even negative reviews
for people, and I, I, I sp spentprobably more time than I should have.
Looking at all of this stuff that you havehere, um, how is that working out for you?
It looks like you got fired from this job.
It looks like you had for, based onthese, uh, different personality things

(01:15:50):
like how's that working out for you?
I'm not asking you totake the review down.
Yeah, yeah.
I'm genuinely curious.
Okay.
And she came right?
And she came back.
I said, look, we can't helpyou in, in what you're looking
for help on, unfortunately.
Um, but.
Doesn't mean that we can't treat youlike a human and see what's going on.
And she came back with the most glowingreview afterwards and said, oh, Travis

(01:16:15):
gave me a reality check and I reallyappreciate That wasn't my intention.
Yeah, right.
Yeah.
It wasn't my intention.
Even though she was, she was quite upsetat first, like, holy crow, how do you know
all these things about where I worked?
And, and, um, so while you didn't leavea number and you left this whole thing
anonymously and I had to figure out whoyou were, so I may have a DC that a little
further down the road, but had a humanconnection and a very positive outcome.

(01:16:37):
And I find the younger generation isfearful of just picking up the phone
and saying, Hey, like, like, what's up?
This is something I've been,I've been thinking about more.
'cause I, I think that you're inevitablygonna always have that sort of
generational, um, conflict, you know,as, as you're older, and I shouldn't say

(01:16:57):
conflict, you're just, we think that weman, every time, um, we think that, um.
Every since I was a kid, everyolder generation has said something
negative about the generation thatcomes up behind them or the, the, the
subsequent generations below them.
And it's like, okay, the only habit,the only thing that seems to be

(01:17:18):
consistent here is that everybodythinks that everybody that's
younger than them is an idiot.
And to me, the only thing that'sactually consistent is that the
world's just continually changing.
And the frameworks that we have, you know,for ourselves, what made sense in 1999
does not make sense in 2025 in some ways.

(01:17:39):
But, but the base frameworks, thingsthat I'm talking about with Code
of the West all the time, it's like
in theory they could have, theycould operate in 2139, you know,
because it's, it's just, it'sjust about, like, it's not about.
The, the specificity andthe nuance of the culture.
It's, it's, it's about what's itlike to be a part of a community?

(01:18:02):
And, and there's Mm, and that's why,I mean, it's a, to me, I view it as
a compass and not a map, you know?
'cause it's, it's somethingthat's gonna evolve, you know,
society interaction, how we do it.
We might just be on, you know, talkingthrough radio signals and just staring
at each other on a podcast in 30 yearsbecause we're just in our, each other.
Everybody's in their brainsabout it or something.

(01:18:23):
I don't know.
Um, but I think Neurolink Yeah, exactly.
But with Gen ZI think that, um,you know, much like we're the first
generation to have lived in both worlds.
They're the first generationthat's only lived in that one, this
current one, rather, I should say.
Mm. And, and the other world existedeven though it changed and shifted.

(01:18:48):
It existed pretty much for allof humanity prior to this moment.
You know, it's like, okay, we gotthe telephone, we got airplanes,
we've got, you know, the 20,the 20th century is pretty dope.
But there was, there were, it wasmore like refined, refined versions
of communication methods thatwe'd, you know, been as, you know,
aspiring towards for a long time.

(01:19:10):
Um, nobody, I mean, Jesus Christ.
I mean, like, we have ai,like we have actual AI that
can think it's self emergent.
Like it's not just some noveltyof like, find me a recipe.
It's like you can have a debate withan AI about its sovereignty mm-hmm.
And its own existence.
If you told me that when I was nine yearsold for one, I'd been like, hell yeah.

(01:19:33):
Where's the hoverboardand the flying DeLoreans.
But, um, yeah, but what I'm getting atis, is that, like you, you mentioned
legacy earlier and, and you have kids,I think you said, and I don't mm-hmm.
To my knowledge.
Mm-hmm.
Um, but um, this idea of legacy, I thinkgoes beyond just, um, I think oftentimes

(01:19:54):
we see legacy as wanting some sort ofreassurance that to ourselves that when
we die we feel like we've had some sortof impact or we're leaving some impression
of our time here behind after we're gone.
And for me, I think it's more it,like the sun could exp I could

(01:20:19):
save, I could go full Armageddon.
Bruce Willis go up with my oilrigging friends, blow up the asteroid
that's gonna destroy the earth.
They could put statues of us in everycity, in every country of the world.
And at some point the sun's gonna explode.
You know, like regardless of howlong those statues stay, like

(01:20:39):
at some point it's just gone.
And so it, you, you could argue thatthere's more value in time, you know,
for how long people remember you.
If you're Gil, you're Gilgamesh orBeowulf, I'd argue that it doesn't matter.
It, it matters like when, when you arelike, I think about like, the greatest
mystery and exploration that I'llever have in my life is like death.

(01:20:59):
And as macab as this soundslike, I think about death a
lot, but not in like a dark way.
Mm-hmm.
I'm just like, okay.
Um, it's, you said early on inthe podcast, it's inevitable.
You know, it's the one thingthat we all can't avoid.
So for me, I just wannaknow when it happens.
Like, I let, I didn'tleave anything on the mat.

(01:21:20):
And the legacy that I wanna leavebehind is more of what it means
to just live well and live as anindividual and, and die with not,
no one's gonna die without regrets.
But, um, I think it's,
I think it's important to, to die.

(01:21:43):
Well die.
Well, like I said about Lauren, youknow, and helping him like, um, I,
Michael died alone with a lot of drugsand alcohol sys in his system in a,
in a switchy yard outside of Portland.
Lauren died surrounded by family,slowly, albeit, but with a chance

(01:22:03):
to talk and, and say goodbyeand, and come to terms with it.
You know, it's like we don't alwaysget to control the way that we die,
but we can control to a large degreehow we live up until that point.
And, and I think that's thelegacy that I wanna leave behind.
I think you're doing a damn goodjob of, of putting the work in

(01:22:27):
to be able to leave that legacy.
Trying.
Where, where do you see thefuture of CO to the West?
Um,
there's stuff that's, um, like, I haven'tsigned in any NDAs about anything, but
I, I have a habit of not wanting tocount my chickens before they hatch.

(01:22:50):
So smart.
As far, as far as what I can control,you know, I'm trying to carve out time
to write another book that's not justa, like a sequel to the, I mean, the,
the manual is basically an epistemology.
It's just a way of explaining things.
Mm-hmm.
That, you know, all the people inmy life that we've talked about

(01:23:12):
that they sort of intuited, um.
That they're not gonna have, like,just because Stoicism lines up a lot
with Code of the West doesn't meanthat the people that taught me the
code knew who Marcus Aurelius was.
You know?
So it's like mm-hmm.
I kind of wanted to sort of structureit, but now I want to have, uh,
sort of like an actual document thatcould help young people, especially.

(01:23:35):
Like, I keep thinkinglike the big book of shit.
You should know.
Um, you know, that's, that's stuff mm-hmm.
That I, I, I, I had a hard time withthings like how to cook and how to,
you know, change tires and, you know,manners and different things like that.
So I really want, I want to, I wantto continue to write and publish books
that have value that can be referenced.
And then, um, I want to, um, I wantto, I want to document other people's

(01:24:01):
stories more, you know, uh, like, um,this is where I'm being careful about
one of those eggs that could hatch.
Mm-hmm.
Um.
I would like to, I'd like to go andtalk to people and, and, and meet them
where they are and work alongside themand, and have the chance to show people

(01:24:22):
that things that I talk about are notgone, you know, show, not tell more
that, that there are people mm-hmm.
Who still, even though I think thatCode of the West aspires to, or I aspire
with Code of the West to basicallymake a modern myth, you know, and that

(01:24:44):
a myth is not a, an accurate factualplay by play storytelling, uh, method.
It's, it's, it's romanticized.
It's, it's, it's, it's, it's a lesson.
Mm-hmm.
You know, more than anything.
And, and so I think that the,it's very important to, um, uh.

(01:25:05):
Tie it together and, and show that like,yes, it might be a myth, but there's
still a component of it that is real.
And I really want to, I, I wannaphysically get people together.
Something I can tell you that I don'tfeel, I don't have any qualms about saying
is that I, um, I live in northern Idahooutside of a, a town called Sandpoint.

(01:25:26):
And I, and I'm officially on the, um,board of directors now for the PRCA rodeo
that happens every year in Sandpoint here.
And as a part of thisCool, it's, it's cool.
I'm excited.
And so as a part of the arrangementthat I have is, um, it's not,
we're not rebranding the rodeo.
It's still the Sandpoint rodeo,but I get to say that this is

(01:25:49):
the code of the West Rodeo.
If you want to come and, and seeCode of the West in person or
experience it in some way, I. Augustof 2025 is gonna be the first time.
I don't know.
Everybody wants to showup in Sandpoint, Idaho.
It's kind of out of,out of, out of the way.
But I, I just, I want to start doingthings that are more in person, ideally,

(01:26:10):
you know, find a way to, to allowpeople to have their own agency to
start, you know, go to the West, youknow, book, I don't know, book clubs
or, I mean, I haven't, I haven't hada chance to really build it the way
I wanted it to yet, but it's like,it just, it just needs to be real.
It, it can't be theoretical,you know, alone.
And so there's, that's part ofwhere it's going, figuring that

(01:26:31):
stuff out, uh, getting my podcastgoing again, and, um, and just,
that's more of just a habit thing.
I, I got all that stuff worked out.
Hmm.
And, um, and then, um,
there's, it could get prettyinteresting by the end of the summer
here if everything goes the way thatit, it's, it's looking, you know?
And, and so this.

(01:26:55):
Uh, I, I don't think there's any harmin saying like, I'm, um, I'm doing
a collection drop with Huckberry.
Um, so like, I'm, I'm basically puttingsomething together with them that's gonna
be a combination of Code of the West, youknow, shirts, hats, um, but also tools.

(01:27:16):
Cool.
And, and, and things that are what brands?
I, I'll be a little, I will wait tosay the brands just because we haven't
assigned anything or anything, butlike, things like knives, you know,
like, uh, jack, like jack shirt, I,I gotta be careful, but like, but
like, things that are useful Sure.
To people if you're from thenorthwest, if you're from the

(01:27:36):
bush, you know, like, um, and um.
Yeah, like that, that it's not just anaffectation, it's like it's, it's it's
shit kicker gear that you could justthrow in the back of a Subaru if you're
somebody who's a white collar personwho grew up in Alberta or grew up in
Montana but is doing something new now.
Or it could also just be the jacket thatyou wear, or the gloves that you use, or

(01:27:59):
the tool that you use if you are still,you know, in the shit, so to speak.
And then, um, I'm doing somestuff with Boot Barn as well.
Um, that's incremental.
There's a couple thingsthat we're doing there.
Um, and, and that it's, I'm,it's more of like, I didn't look
for that, but that happened.
And, and so to me it's, it's a wayof hopefully just, um, extending the

(01:28:25):
opportunity to help people ultimately.
I like, I like that a lot.
And also depending when the datesare in August, I'll go to the,
uh, I'll be there at the rodeo.
That'd be cool.
It's, it's like August1st, I think that, yeah.
Okay.
My daughter's going off to university,so we'd be juggling a few things there.

(01:28:49):
I don't know what's, uh, when theofficial head in time is, I should
probably look at the calendar.
How far north are you?
Like where, how far areyou from the border?
I'm.
Pretty close.
I mean, we're, I'm in Ladner, I mean,the border's 15 minutes away from me.
And I drove down, I visited abuddy in Boise, uh, Brad Brooks.

(01:29:09):
He owns a company called Ar Gall.
And, um, Zach Hansen, he's writtena book called Turning Ferrell.
Actually, Zach, he lent methis, uh, Kerra Rod, and I'd
never used one of them before.
And coming from a fly fishingbackground, everyone kind of
turns their nose up at 'em.
But, uh, I, I had the, probablyone of the best fishing days
of my life with this thing.

(01:29:29):
A little compact little.
That's amazing.
I felt like, uh, yeah, I felt likeHemingway fishing in the Saw two and let
us stay in his, um, his cabin in, uh,Atlanta, which is, uh, Atlanta, Idaho.
That's
cool.
So do you go through Bonners Ferrythen, or how do you come down South?
Yeah, that's a good question.
I don't know.
I, um, I sat in the passenger seat andmy wife drove, 'cause I hate driving.

(01:29:52):
And, uh, you ask your wife and, and I,I put the thing on the old map Quest
on, uh, put it on the Google Mapsand, uh, uh, and we just camped along
the way and fished and, um, um, yeah.
Very cool.
What about, um, Zane, Zane Gray?
Uh, you're familiar with him?
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
So he's got a writers of thePurple Sage and then obviously

(01:30:15):
the book, the Code of the West.
And he had one quote.
So very different, highlyinfluential in his own right.
Mm-hmm.
In romanticizing and creating, uh,the, the western culture that so
many movies have been based off of.
Uh, you've gone and codified a lot ofthese things that, uh, that he never

(01:30:38):
did that, um, kind of make up thosepoints, which is, which is really cool.
But he had a quote says, say.
You can't tell what a man's made ofby looking at him, you gotta go away.
What he does, and that, I think,encapsulates what you're doing.
I appreciate that.

(01:30:59):
There's a lot of stuff, a lotof quotes, and I, I used to do
a lot of pull, a lot of quotesoutta Louis Lamore and Zane Gray.
And it's not that I, it's not that Idon't find any value in it, it's just
that I, um, or not that I don't findany value in it anymore, it's just
I've realized that I've got more tosay than can be just reflected off
those quotes in, in, in many cases.
Mm-hmm.
But, um,

(01:31:22):
I would agree with Zane Gray.
Uh, I, I mean it's
in storytelling, they say show don't telland which just seems counterintuitive,
especially if you're working withinwords, uh, a lot of times because
you have to tell to, so to speak.
But there's, that's sort of the little.

(01:31:44):
Tricks of the trade is learning howto paint a picture with, um, with
words as opposed to, um, tryingto render a photograph with words.
And, and so, and that's, you know, afterhaving spent a lot of time learning how
to draw, you know, and illustrate morethan, more than actually writing prose.

(01:32:05):
Um, even though I wrote a lotsince I was little, it just wasn't
the number one thing that I did.
But I think that, it's funny that youbrought that quote up 'cause that's really
part of that, the reason why I want todo the thing that I'm being a little
dodgy about, uh, as far as going andworking alongside people, um, and, and,

(01:32:26):
and showing them that this still exists.
I also, as a part of.
Wanting to do that would be puttingmyself in situations where, by working
alongside them, I'm learning thingsthat I haven't done before and I'm doing
things that are not just new to me, butthey're, they'd be uncomfortable even
to somebody who knew how to do them.

(01:32:48):
And, and so I'm hoping that becausethere's talk is cheap, it doesn't
matter how good I've gotten at, atarticulating things in Code of the
West, you know that people believe them.
And I'm grateful that most peoplebelieve what I'm saying, that I
know, that I know to be the truth.

(01:33:08):
But there's just a certain level,especially as we're talking about like Gen
Z and the other generations, like, I'm notsaying that I wanna be that guy, it's just
that I know, that I know about myself.
That if, if you put a camera on meand you asked me to do something that
was really hard, I wouldn't pretend.

(01:33:31):
That it, well, I wouldn't pretendat all, I guess is what I'm saying.
And mm-hmm.
And I, I have no problem withfailing like we talked about earlier.
And if no one else will be willingto fail in front of literally
everybody, then I'll do it.
And that's kind of, in a strange way, whatI'm hoping to be able to do, just because

(01:33:52):
I, I believe in that quote so much thatyou referenced with Z from Zane Gray.
Well, I think, uh, I thinkthere's a, I'll show you, I,
I do a little bit of research.
I got a six pages printed off hereof things that I didn't even get
to, uh, talk to you about, justbecause we can do again, you want
point,

(01:34:13):
I, I think we're gonna have to, and maybe,maybe I bring my kid down if, and do
something at the, uh, the rodeo there.
That could be kind offun too, if, uh, yeah.
That would be, but yeah.
Um, is there anything thatwe haven't talked about that
we should be talking about?
You know, like you, you asked me sort ofa similar question before we started, uh,

(01:34:34):
and I think the, I, I just like talking topeople and, and not having, uh, an agenda.
So there's always things we couldtalk about, but I don't think that
there's anything that we need totalk about, if that makes sense.
Totally makes sense.
What, what I'm gonna do is I'mgonna have links in the description.

(01:34:56):
I'll have, uh, links over to yoursocial media to what you're doing,
where people can find you, and, um,maybe we'll call it a wrap there.
Yeah.
Okay.
Chris?
Yeah.
For, for the time being.
For for the time being.
Yes.
And thank you so much for beingon the Silver Corp podcast.
Thanks for having me.
I feel.

(01:35:17):
I feel lighter.
I feel I, I like, I love, I love thefeeling of being able to sit down and you
ride that high afterwards just saying,I just had an amazing conversation.
Thank you.
Yeah, likewise.
I appreciate it.
Thank you.

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