Ep. 168: Brotherhood, Resilience, and Firearms: David MacDonald Returns

Episode Transcript
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So without further ado, let'sget on with this podcast.
You may remember today's guest fromSilver Corps Podcast, episode one 17.
He spent three weeks in a German hospitalafter an IED explosion in Afghanistan,
recovering from no fewer than 47 brokenbones, including a massive skull fracture.
Since then, he's helped countlessothers overcome personal trauma and

(01:41):
PTSD by sharing his story today.
He's the trusted presence behind BretaDefense Technologies as a manager in the
defense and law enforcement division.
Welcome back to the SilverCore Podcast, David McDonald.
Hey Travis, for having me again.
Uh, yeah, it's just, it's uh,great to be back, honestly.
Uh.
Thank you for inviting me.
As I said, I've been kind of,uh, been following, uh, you since

(02:03):
I left from my last podcast.
You've had an amazing series ofguests, so honestly, I feel a little
inadequate being here today, but, uh,uh, let's, I'm excited to get back.
Let's do this again.
Hey,
you're one of those amazingguests that's for, for sure.
Appreciate
that.
So
what is it that brought you over here?
So, uh, so we're in, uh, bBC this week, or like that.
There's the, uh, CanadianAssociation of Chief of Police,
uh, conference and Trade show.

(02:25):
Uh, it happens every year in August.
It actually, it rotatesthroughout the country.
So last year was in Halifax,and then they circle back and
they do it in va uh, Victoria.
So I've spent the last, uh,three days out on the island.
Yeah.
Uh, just, uh, doing the trade show,meeting with the chiefs, the deputies.
Uh, there's some, you know,the superintendents, uh, uh,
promoting the brand defense brand.
Yep.

(02:45):
Uh, which we'll get toin a second like that.
But, uh, 'cause last time I was herewe were talking about Stoger Canada.
This is, uh, now there's a whole newbranding we, you know, we can talk about.
But, uh, just, and, and thencame in today, took the ferry
over this morning like that.
Then now I'm in Vancouver.
I'm here to meet with some of my existing,uh, clients, if you wanna call it that.
So, Vancouver Police, uh, new Mess,Winster Surrey Police, and just, uh,

(03:06):
kind of get some face time with them.
Yeah, that's good to do.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The, so.
I had brand new branding withBeretta Defense Technologies.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, what, what wasthe move behind there?
Probably some confusion whenpeople are think thinking like
Stoger, how does this fit into
things?
Yeah.
So, uh, so I, so it's kind of twofold.
So first of all, at the internationalside level of it, uh, bread of

(03:26):
Defense Technologies has been a, abrand for a little while, but it's
not really been all that recognized.
So a co in the last year, uh, Bretakind of branched off the DEF defense
military law enforcement side of thebusiness into a whole own legal entity.
Uh, and now we, every companythat had a defense or law
enforcement, uh, business sector.
Yeah, we've all been requiredthat you, now, now you're gonna be

(03:50):
renaming and rebranding under thebrand defense technologies' name.
So in the last year we've been,uh, really hard at work separating
Stoger Canada from Brand DefenseTechnologies, Canada, everyth like that.
So, uh, brand new booth, uh, brandnew, uh, well brand new patches.
Brand new brand, wellbranding across the board.
Yeah.
Uh, we are in the process of actually, uh,legal making it a legal entity in Canada.

(04:11):
Okay.
Under, under that, under that name.
Yeah.
And, uh, my email just, uh, this pastweek changed from Stoger Canada to
Debra Defense Technologies Canada.
So gotta find a new place to
send
all these memes to you.
Yeah.
Okay.
Um, so.
Breta.
Interesting.
What 500 years coming up Next year willbe the 500th anniversary, so they're one

(04:32):
of, if I'm not mistaken, three, maybe likeI did a little bit of research before,
I should probably just plug it into ai.
But there's like three family runbusinesses that have been around
for that length of time or longer.
Some, some crazy small number.
Oh yeah, it's, it's, I mean, I thinkyou can count on one hand how many
actually are still that, and then Ithink we're on our 15th generation.

(04:52):
It's still run by the Saxon family.
Uh, they're, they are, uh, they're,the next generation is getting ready,
uh, to come up and start takingsome more interest in the business.
So, uh, and they'restill heavily involved.
Uh, I'll be at a show next month Yeah.
Out in the London uk.
And typically the one, the brothersjust will show up like that.
And, uh, and y you, you would, youthink they'd be coming in, in like

(05:16):
an entourage, but he just randomlyshows up in like, just either a suit
or even just jeans and a dress shirtand next thing you know, you're
talking to Franco or Pietro and you'relike, oh, oh, how are you doing, sir?
Not, not surrounded by
security.
No, not at all.
No, they're, they're, but, uh, uh,it's, uh, just incredible that we, we
working for still such, it's one ofthe things that I would say gives us
a bit of advantage in the industry.

(05:37):
We're not owned by a shareholding group ora, uh, you know, a, a, a, uh, you know, a
credit, uh, you know, group of companies.
We're we, we we're still ownedby a family, owned by brother.
Led, uh, company that, uh, we answer toultimately to the, to two to two people.
Um, and so it's, it's, it's just that,it's really, it's really an interesting

(06:01):
company to work for in that regard,considering we, you know, if you
really ever have an issue with likethat, it's, it's a real streamlined
process to order to get an answer.
No.
Yeah.
You know, I've worked with some familybusinesses in the past and I've seen
some really good benefits to that, butI've also seen the, the difficult side
of the family business and for a familybusiness to be around for 500 years.

(06:22):
Yeah.
Like, holy crow, those Italians knowsomething about family, that's for sure.
Right?
That's
for sure.
Yeah, absolutely.
And, uh, it's almost they're bred intoit at this point or like that, but Yeah.
Um, and you know, Andretta mean,we, we, we call it Breada everyone.
A lot of people know the company,obviously the manufacturer of
Beretta, but the holdings group.
Hope it just contains so muchmore, uh, within the group.

(06:44):
And like that a lot ofpeople don't rec realize.
So,
okay.
So let's break it down.
'cause I don't even think I knowall the things that happens within
the, in the full holding group.
I know that they're a large company.
I know that they've got their fingersin a bunch of different, uh, pies.
What, what's their
totality?
Uh, so, you know, a lot of peopleare surprised to learn that, uh,

(07:04):
Beretta, uh, uh, owns Benellicompetitors in the market.
Yeah.
You know, uh, just as an established and,uh, you know, the leg like legacy company
within fi with the farms community.
Yeah.
Uh, but they're, they're we'reall sister companies together.
So they're sister companies.
Um, you go, they're, they're not that far.
They're in two differentvalleys within Italy.

(07:25):
You go down to the us they're literally,the offices are next to each other, uh,
down in, uh, side in Washington, DC Yeah.
Uh, we also, they own, uh, probably two.
What?
Well, two of the probablyGreat, you know, best.
Bolt action precision rifle companies inthe world, they own Sacco, Antica, Uhhuh.
Uh, and in that, you know, you can'thave a, you know, a, a precision rifle

(07:48):
company without an optics company.
So they also own Steiner.
Mm-hmm.
And bur the, you know, uh, so you gotboth the precision, the high end real of
super precision military and precisionhunting scopes, and you got, you know,
burst, which is excellent scopes in theirown rights, everyth like that within the
tactical and the, the hunting community.
Yeah.
Uh, and the most recent acquisition,uh, I'm not even touching on all of

(08:09):
them or like that, but the most recentacquisition was in the last end of 2023.
Uh, just after, actuallyI was last year like that.
Yeah.
Uh, Breta purchased the RUAG group, sofive of the world's largest ammunition
manufacturers, which closed that gapon Holy Crow, on what we can provide.
So really, we all, we area full service provider.
Yeah.
And, um, where does, you know, branddefense technologies or Stoger Canada,

(08:34):
which is the commercial side comeinto play, is that we are owned.
We're not, you know, we don't haveto, we don't, we're not a, um, a
partnership agreement with Breta wherewe're under a contractual agreement,
which can, you know, you know, end orbe, uh, or be terminated or like that.
Breta purchased our company yearsago, back in the early two thousands.
So, um, we are owned directly.

(08:54):
We actually represent, we areessentially the factory of all
those companies within Canada.
So I've told, I've told, you know, someof the services, I'm gonna meet with a
couple of them tomorrow and like that.
And it's, um.
If they have an issue orthey want something or they
need, you know, a detail.
Just today I was talking with aservice, uh, needed a detail on
one of the tikas rifles they had.

(09:15):
Mm.
And uh, it was more of a technicalquestion involving, you know, what
kind of, you know, powder on the roundthey should be using or like that.
Yeah.
And the bench I have is, it's notme, you know, sending an email
through a, you know, a direct listof chain of middlemen or like that.
It's literally just calling the,you know, the production manager
over at Teka or, and saying, Hey,I, you know, I have this question.

(09:36):
And he gets back to me within,you know, based on his own
timeframe and the time zones.
'cause we're dealing with Finlandhere, which is, you know, a
couple hours ahead of us hours.
Yeah.
But, uh, based on that, he canusually get an answer within a day.
Yeah.
That's crazy.
So, yeah, I went over, I, so Iwas in Finland, went over to, uh,
the factory there, and I saw theiroperations and I was, I was blown away.
Blown away by a few things.

(09:56):
So the Finnish culture is,uh, a little different than
what we're used to over here.
A little
bit.
Yeah.
A little bit.
Similarities in, in their own right.
Which is interesting like that there's,there's, it's almost like it's, yeah.
Well, you'll tell a joke and they'll justlook at you and then later on they'll
say, that was a really funny joke.

(10:17):
Yeah.
Yeah.
They, they do do that.
Um, but I find that the culture ofkind of, you know, obviously they're
really big on their saunas and, butthey're really big on being in nature.
Yeah.
Uh, but I, I literally heard lasttime I was over there, we were, uh.
We were jump, we were going intothis lake or like that, and they
warned me ahead of time, Hey,it's not so bad once you get in.
And I'm like, that, no,that's our saying, man.
That's, that's a, so a bunchof Americans were with us and

(10:40):
they're like, what does that mean?
I'm, I'm like, well,you're about to find out.
Yeah.
You know, everyone looks at jumpingin a lake as being a terrible thing.
Oh, it's gonna be so cold.
I don't know if it's freezing outside andthe top is frozen, you know, the water
underneath is actually gonna be warmer.
Yeah.
Than, yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But, uh, yeah, the, the culfactory is, is incredible.
Now, uh, did they, did you get to see the,the meeting room upstairs, Uhhuh where

(11:05):
the all all the, the history of the guns?
Yeah, that was great.
So that was recentlyredone, they said Yes.
Yeah.
So that, and that was like partof their original, um, yeah.
So they had all, all theirold guns, their whole museum.
Um, we got the, the full tour ofit and the, the history of it and,
uh, learned about the different,uh, models that they're making.
Actually one of the guys there, um, Mika.

(11:28):
Was it Mika?
It's
probably Mika.
That's it.
Yeah.
It's usually either Mika USO orMika Tuka, or, yeah, that's, so
it's, it's very, very, very standardfinished names, but yeah, Mika, uh,
m Mika, yeah.
Was Oh, so Mika, or Mika?
Mika given the, uh, given us a touraround and, uh, he was showing, like,
I guess when he was in university, heapproached 'em and he says, you know,
I've got some design ideas and I gotsome, uh, things that can make it better.

(11:51):
And I said, okay, come on in.
Show us what you mean.
Yeah.
And then a lot of the new thingsthat are coming out are things
that, that he brought into fruition.
Some of their top sellers actually.
But yeah, that was, that was a neat place.
Uh, the history behindeverything was neat.
I went in, I wanted to take some pictures,I wanted to do some video, and, um, they
said, Nope, no, we don't want any of that.
Yeah.
Oh.
Okay.

(12:11):
Well like what?
You know, like I'd, I'd love toshow people what you're doing.
No, no.
Just come on in.
This is cool.
We, we want you to come in.
The hospitality was crazy.
Yeah.
I guess that's what I'm getting
at.
Yeah.
Uh, it and don't and so youdon't Yeah, don't feel bad.
I'm not allowed to takephotos there either.
And I work for 'em directly like that.
So it's like, so don't, don't,don't feel bad there at all.
Uh, yeah.
If there's a strictly no for, you know,photography rule in a lot of places.

(12:33):
'cause they want you to actually comein and actually witness with your
own eyes not stuck behind a camera.
And you get like, kind ofalmost a disconnect there.
They want you to see the craftsmanship andthe skill they're putting into their pro.
Like, uh, a lot of peopledon't realize like their, their
ammunition of their factory.
Mm-hmm.
Every cartridge is inspected a hundredpercent before it leaves a factory.

(12:54):
My average check rates are, you know,less than 10% on most ammunition.
Lots.
They check a hundred percent everysingle one to make sure it is.
You know, meets the standards orlike that every barrel from the SA
factory is inspected by a personbefore it gets installed on a gun.
That was one of the thingsthat I thought was interesting.
Mm-hmm.
Because you look at the crazy machinerythey have for automation, for precision,

(13:17):
CNC, and then you get down to thehuman inspection part and they say,
you know, we put 'em through themachines, but you still can't beat
the human eye for being able to spotsome of the, uh, variances, like if
you're barrel bending or straighteningor whatever you're gonna be doing.
And I don't, I don't reallyunderstand how that is.
I don't understand how we can haveAI and space age machinery yet.

(13:42):
We still can't match the precisionof what a human can be able to.
Yeah.
I I, I don't, I don't know either.
I mean, and a lot of the machinery in thatshop is actually still relatively new.
Yeah.
Uh, a lot, some of it, up until 10years ago, those, those rifles were
still made essentially by hand.
Yeah.
Um.
Production and demand has grownto the point where they needed

(14:03):
to bring some machinery in
Uhhuh.
But, uh, I was just, I was having anotheremail this morning with one of actually,
uh, a Montreal, uh, service member.
So one of the things that we have tokeep on, we're always stressing on the
guise, is that, uh, when you're, whenyou're buy a sack or you're buying a tika,
the barrel is not like another rifle.

(14:25):
Mm. The cold thing.
They've, they've figured out a way,some sort of magic how to do it.
They're cold heel forthey're cold hammer forged.
Yeah.
And so at today they, the, the guy contactme saying, I put 3000 rounds to the gun.
I've been told this is, now it'stime to change the barrel uhuh.
So how do I do that?
And I'm like, uh, your barrel light'snot even at the halfway point yet.
Mm. But it's, uh, I, I'vepersonally tested, uh, a SCO TRG.

(14:49):
Yep.
And we had 30,000 rounds of3 0 8 through that barrel.
And it was still shooting just fine.
It's to the point now actuallySacco no longer does, they no longer
bother doing round counts anymore.
Really,
they ran out of ammo before they blewthe bur before they burn the barrel out.
That's crazy.
Uh, so instead the the way actually,and this, anyone who's listening to this

(15:12):
remember this because I, you know, uh,it saves me a lot of time on my email.
I not having to explainthis anymore like that.
So the way Sacco determines a barrelhas reached the end of its life mm-hmm.
Is if you have more than sixcentimeter shift of point of
impact from point of a. Mm-hmm.
And not, or at, and a more thanfive, 10% drop of velocity mm-hmm.

(15:36):
At the muzzle.
Okay.
If those, and it has to be consistent.
Okay.
We all know that muzzle velocitychanges has lots of other
factors that can affect it.
Uh, so it has to be consistently happeningrepeatedly over and over in time again.
Or like that if it, if thathappens or like that, and you have
those, both, those things happen.
That's an indication.
Something's going on with your barrel.

(15:56):
It's time to come in and get it inspected.
So say that again.
It was 6% and so it's six, six
centimeter shift.
Six centimeter in point of impact.
Okay.
From your point of aim.
Yeah.
And a 10% drop in velocity at the muzzle.
Hmm.
So
you need both of
those things.
Both things, things happen consistently
across the board over multiple shots.
Okay.
So anyone getting the rifle to beginwith should get things zeroed in, have

(16:18):
a decent idea of what their averagevelocity's gonna be like, and that
way they can then have a baseline on
it.
Yeah.
Just
like, yeah.
And there's always outsidefactors, you know, like that.
Like if you're hand loading and you'rehold loading super hot rounds, it's
gonna burn your barrel lot faster.
Yeah.
That's an unknown factor that we can'tspeak to or like that because, uh,
there's certain powders that work betterthan others and like that, uh, but when

(16:39):
you're dealing with commercial gradeammunition or like that, I can tell you
these things, these barrels can go forthousands more rounds than what, uh.
They, you know, and get theother thing, get off the forms.
Oh yeah.
You will hear 10 differentre uh, things from people on.
Oh, it's kind of changed it.
No, it's not.
Yes it is.
No it's not.
Yes it is.
No it's not.
I'm telling you, I'm thefrom the factory guy.

(17:01):
Yeah.
This is this, this is the golden rule.
Like that, those two
factors.
It's funny how, um, you get onthese forums and there's a lot
of experts on there and youknow, there are people mm-hmm.
Who know what they're doing.
Absolutely.
They know what they're talking about.
But, uh, I, people just go alittle overboard into the minutiae
and all these little things thatdon't actually move the needle.

(17:22):
Mm-hmm.
When it comes to accuracy,when it comes to issues.
Uh, and very often what I find ishuman factor plays such a big role, but
everyone's so quick to point out, oh,it's gotta be this, it's gotta be that.
And I think you and I were talking aboutthis before and I was given the example
of a, uh, certain agency that I wasdoing some gun plumbing for and getting a

(17:43):
phone call saying, oh, hold on a second.
One of our guns isn't workingproperly, only to show up and find
out that none of the instructors hadtestified it, they're going off the
word of one of their students, andthey weren't able to reproduce it.
They had me fire it.
I wasn't able to reproduce it.
Then I had to do the tap dance of beingable to help the instructors save face

(18:03):
for not doing the first basic checksthat you should do, which is if you're
having an issue, give it to somebody else.
Do they have the same issue?
Can they replicate the same thing?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because the human factors is pretty crazy,and he, and you get on the forums and
they're gonna tell you, send it back.
Use a thing as a club that's no goodanymore, or whatever it might be.
Well, and, and, and, you know, and you'reright, I mean, I've run across agencies

(18:26):
and, you know, my almost 10 years ofdoing this, that they've identified an
issue, which, okay, we have, we, we takeeveryone seriously because of course we,
we have to, especially when you're dealingwith law enforcement or military because,
you know, potentially lives are at rightat at risk here or anything like that.
You know, you, you need, they need toknow their equipment's gonna be good
when it needs to be earth like that.

(18:46):
But inevitably we, we hear whatthe problem is and we're like,
okay, uh, well that hasn't beenseen anywhere else in the world.
Mm-hmm.
Okay, so send it in, we'll take alook at it, everything like that.
And then one, one or one or two times.
Okay.
That's, that's maybe indication.
There might be, you know, maybea potential defect or something
that we weren't aware of.
So, uh, everyone, even the bestmanufacturer in the world, keep

(19:09):
in mind, we're still human.
Of course
mistakes do happen, but when ithappens, t and if it's a 16 problem
happening multiple times, that'swhen I started being like, let's
look at your procedures here.
Well how are, how are you actually doing?
'cause maybe it's something here thatcould be fixed with just a simple
tweak in the training or something.
Or Yeah.
Or we need to maybe reviewyour torque settings.

(19:29):
Uh, 'cause sometimes, especiallywhen we're getting from Europe and
all what's in nanometers, they don'tnecessarily understand how that relates
back to inch pounds or god forbid,foot pounds, you know, like that.
If they decide to go with that,if they get really confused.
So if you, if you can get footpounds outta the inch pounds and it's
still, it doesn't snap on you holy
crow, like you're asking for trouble.
Yeah.
But, uh.

(19:50):
But yeah, I mean, we, we run across, uh,you know, that it's all, but education
is why, and it's making sure that,uh, not only is the initial cadre.
That, you know, if they receive a newweapon system or a new site trained on
it, we gotta make sure that trainingis maintained within that service.
'cause guys retire.
Yeah, let's move on.
I think that's the, so, you know,a gun manufacturer sends a lot of

(20:13):
time and energy to research what'sgonna make it absolutely the best
possible product that they put canput out in a way that's replicable.
And then people get in their handsand the first thing they want to do is
like, okay, I'm gonna change the stockon it, get some chassis, and uh, maybe
I can get a different barrel and I'mgonna get a threaded for a muzzle break.
What kind of trigger can I put on?
And they start taking all of thesethings out and putting something else in.

(20:35):
And it's, I get it.
It's fun.
And the gunsmithing portion seems tohave gone by the wayside over the year,
and it's more parts replacement mm-hmm.
Or armor type stuff that peopleare doing, but, but it's,
it's like tinker toys, right.
For adults, they'd like to get in thereand kind of move it around, but you can
expect to stick your finger in the bowl ofwater and not expect to see some ripples.

(20:56):
Yeah.
Right.
Uh, you know, that's agreat way of putting it.
And I can tell you like, some of theguns we get coming back to our service
and warranty center, uh, it, it'sbarely a bread of product anymore,
potentially like that, where it'slike, okay, well, we'll, we'll service
what we can, but half the stuff like,it's such a Frankenstein gun at this
point, like, and as you said, I get it.

(21:18):
And especially I would, I would say ina lot of the, uh, movies in the last 10
years that have come out where you seethe really high speed, low drag guns that
have been really, really customized and.
It, you know, for the movie tomake it look good and guys want to
do that, and I don't blame them.
I, I'm, I, I see it and I kindawanna do it as well like that.
Sure.
Um, I get it.
I totally understand it, and if itworks, it works and that's great.

(21:40):
But when something doesn't workand we, you don't necessarily
know what you actually did interms of how much work you've done
to, it's, it's like the, uh, oh.
Uh, not to offend anybody here,but it's like the, it's like the
girl who can't remember what heroriginal hair color is anymore.
Like that, like the, the gun isno longer in its original states.

(22:00):
And for us to fix it, we kind ofneed to figure out what you did.
I, I think the training side, well,I mean, I'm gonna be biased here.
I've got a training company, butI, I think that's a huge thing from
a, um, an OEM manufacturer side.
From a marketing side, I, it's amazingwhat you can accomplish from just a,
a gun straight outta the factory anduse it the way it was properly designed

(22:24):
to be used before you start puttingall of these different things onto it.
I remember, uh, Bourne Identity when, uh,uh, Matt Damon there, Jason Bourne, and
he's, uh, got himself a, I think it was abreak action shotgun, and he's gotta use
a, probably using, uh, seven and a halfshot bird loads or something like that.
Right.
But it's not about the, uh,high speed, low drag gun the

(22:46):
person's got in their hands.
It's about the tactics thatthey employ and their ability
to actually hit a target.
Mm-hmm.
And use these things.
And I watched Meg pull.
Do this back in the day where theystarted putting out training videos
and they made some nice producedglitzy kind of training videos.
Uh, basically if you use our products andyou put 'em on the gun, you're gonna be
able to shoot faster and shoot straighter.

(23:09):
But really all they're doing is showingpeople how to properly use again.
Mm-hmm.
It didn't really have anything todo with the products, although that
was a great sales vehicle for them.
And it also allowed them to circumventadvertising issues because they say,
well, this is product safety andthis is training that they have.
This is not, we're not advertising it.
Right.
So I, I thought that using the educationpiece was important and you see it

(23:31):
with like, you know, some of thehandgun manufacturers that have, uh.
Their, uh, one day course, whichcould be done in half an hour.
Right.
But it's, they spend the entiretime talking about the history
and the this and the that.
And, uh, what they're doing is they'recreating salespeople themselves out
of every person that comes on through.
Well, yeah.

(23:52):
And, uh, you know, we're, we're a littleguilty of that as well, and we do Sure.
Do a whole briefing of the, because thatit is important to know the background
behind the company and the manufacturerwhen we're doing, like, say like a Teeka
Armor course or something like that.
Yeah.
But it'd be, you know, alot of people are surprised.
One, one of my favorite facts about,uh, Teeka is that, you know, they're one
of the only gun companies in the world.
Well, they are the only gun company in theworld to have been owned by the Red Cross.

(24:14):
That's right.
They were to, to avoid being, you know,sucked in during, during the Soviet
occupation or anything like that.
Right.
Yeah.
So, um, that's just a cool,that's just a cool factor, like,
like fact about the company.
Right.
But, but going back to the point isthat like, I, I, I wanna make really
clear, I'm not hating on anybodythat wants to customize their gun.
Oh.
That's what makes it fun.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Totally.
It's the same reason why people,you know, customize their cars.

(24:37):
They custom, like, there'sa reason why parts exist.
Yeah.
And especially at, I would say in thecurrent environment we have in Canada
surrounding guns and gun legislation,uh, where you dely can't buy.
Yep.
Uh, any more of a certainproduct or something like that.
But you still own it and you can use it.
Well, what else?
Where am I?
Where am I gonna put my money here?
Like that?
I'm gonna probably put maybe making ita little more customizable for myself

(24:59):
or like that, and make it, make ita little easier or a little more fun
to fire or a little more fun to use.
Um,
so you're talking about certain thingsthat we maybe can't own anymore.
Um, how has that, if we'retalking about, let's say the
handgun freeze in Canada mm-hmm.
How has that affected things forstoger, for Bri defense technologies,

(25:21):
and do you have any thoughts on wherethings might be moving in the future?
Yeah.
Okay.
Um, excellent question.
A tough one.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, and I, I'll preface of sayingthat this is simply my opinion when
it comes down where it would headto the future, anything like that.
Uh, 'cause you talk to 10 people,10 guys in a room, everyone's
gonna have a different opinionof where this is gonna go.

(25:43):
Uh, but in terms of howit's affected us first.
You know, I, we've been lucky enough atStoger and at Breaded defense that, uh,
it really hasn't affected us too much.
Is that, uh, the handit, it, it, it did hurt.
Uh, sure.
You know, it was about, it was a bigsegment of our business that has,
you know, now is no longer there.
Uh, but our bread and butter's beenmore what a lot of people would

(26:05):
consider the safe firearms like that.
I guess if you wanna callit, if call you safe.
Got it.
Uh, your bolt actions, your, youknow, you're over under shotguns.
There is, you know, but we,we we're like everyone else.
We also do a lot of semi-autos.
We have, we, we, we've been just as anervous and, but also advocating within,
you know, the different circles that,uh, you know, that we, we do serve a,

(26:27):
you know, a distinct and important.
Part in the community, or like that is,and, and in society with, in terms of
conservation, in terms of, you know,hunt responsible and respectful hunting
responsible and respectful shooting.
This is not a scary thing.
Mm-hmm.
And we're trying to, you know, uh,advocate for that as much as possible.
But, uh, yeah, there's definitelyother manufacturers and, and

(26:50):
distributors and dealers out there.
The dealers are, you know, the worst hit.
And we feel for them.
And we see that in, you know, in ourdealer network and like that, that this
is, and these are just people trying torun a business just like anybody else.
They're trying to, you know, uh, theyjust decided to get into this business
because it's, I mean, they're passionateabout, which I think anybody who's runs
a successful business must be passionateabout what they're doing like that.

(27:12):
Yeah, I agree.
Um, and it doesn't necessarilymean they're, you know, bad
people in the community.
They're just trying to run a businessand, you know, create a sport.
Just like any other sport out there,like dad and help support that.
Uh, and they, you know, they pay taxes.
They, you know, they're just any otherlike, you know, uh, business pillar
in the community as they should be.
Uh, so, uh, yeah, it, itdefinitely has hurt them.

(27:34):
Where I see where, you know, this might go
if you, if you asked me, you know,six, seven months ago mm-hmm.
We knew kind of where we saw whereit was kind of going like that.
Now with new government, with newgovernment, well, newer newish
government, it's really hard to say.
Uh, we know with all the commitments thathave been announced for defense spending,

(27:56):
Hmm.
That money just doesn't come from nowhere.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, I don't, you know, it's, it'sbillions of dollars they're gonna have to
put to make the 2% NATO margin by March.
Billions even more to spend toget to the 5% they say they're
gonna hit by 2030, so, mm. Um.
They're gonna have to do cut somewhere.
And I just read an article onthe way here, actually it was on

(28:19):
the fer or anything like that.
And they're talking and itwas just a article of, uh,
well, a great place to start.
That cut is by this gun grab.
I read that as well.
Right.
I read that was in theNational Post, I think.
So it, it, to have, there'sbeen no forward movement on
it really.
So, um, they had a, so they had abuyback program in place for businesses.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I didn't look at what the actualnumbers were on it, but I, I, from what

(28:42):
I understand, the numbers of firearmsthat were bought back far exceeded
what they even thought was out there.
Mm-hmm.
And these are all guns that are trackedand they should know of because of the
business license conditions and, um.
If they're estimating a number for thecivilian population, they have no idea.

(29:02):
They have no idea what's out there,and the number's gonna far exceed
anything they ever thought of.
And there's no way to tell whenthey've achieved their goal either.
Sure.
Yeah.
So they're gonna have tostart a program and leave that
program running indefinitely.
I mean, it's, it, it doesn't,it doesn't make sense.
I see the gun bag buybackprogram as something that's

(29:23):
not going to, uh, be effective.
Uh, both because it's gonnacost way too much money.
Like it's mm-hmm.
Incredibly, incredibly expensiveto offer a proper buyback program.
Yeah.
Uh, they could just decide theywanna ban it instead and backtrack
on a bite on the, um, buyback.
But again, they don't know where all these
guns are.

(29:43):
Well, and, and the, the, you know,I'm sure there'll be people out there
that will correct me in the commentsor like that, but that even, you know,
from my understanding, the way it worksalso in, in the Canadian, you know,
system, is that when you decide toban something that's legally purchased
property, you can't just say it's banned.
You can't use it anymore, and that's it.

(30:04):
Um, they have to offer fair,like when they, when they go in
eminent domain, your property.
They still have to offer you fairmarket value for that property.
You still have to get, they can't justtake it and say, get out, see you later.
Like that, like, um.
Which might be why they talk aboutgrandfathering, but of course
that brings in another issue.
And recently the CCFR put out this urgentvideo on, I think it was last Friday.

(30:26):
So whenever this podcast comes out, peoplewill have a bit of a timeline and man,
they came under a lot of heat, everyone.
Mm-hmm.
And their urgent thing was, uh, gotalk your mps and here's a PDF you
can give them, and we're gonna tryand push for a grandfathering program.
Mm-hmm.
Well, in order to grandfather,you also have a defacto
registry that you're gonna need.
Yep.
They're gonna need to have.
Yep.

(30:46):
And, um, there are a lot of questionmarks of over why that organization
decided to go this route and announcesuch a thing on a Friday night.
Yeah.
And then push it out.
I mean, there's, there's a lot ofinternal drama and, you know, the
firearms community's known to beable to fight within itself and
uh, yeah.
Right.
We are our own, we allour own worst enemy.

(31:08):
Sure.
Um, I. Was at a, uh, a town halla couple years ago in Pickering.
Okay.
With, uh, and there was a couple ofthe, the local mps from the conservative
party there, and it was a, youknow, a really well attended mm-hmm.
Hall.
And we got through about three questionsto the mps before a verbal, you know,
shouting match happened between two of theattendees with each other or like that.

(31:30):
Mm. And it just kind of, and I'mlike, yeah, that didn't take long to,
for, you know, one guy to accuse aguy from some about something else.
And then, you know, and then ofcourse there's the one old guy that
stands up and when are you gonnabring back the, you know, maybe you're
gonna make 12 sixes legal again.
And it's just like, I. Yeah.
It's like, guys, we get on trackhere with the, with the, the
message or like that, right?
Like it's, everyone has their,their own skin in the game.

(31:53):
And I, and it's, it's understandable,but it's, you kind of need to be
united at this exact same time or likethat, which is very difficult, uh,
amongst our community, unfortunately.
Right?
So,
yeah, I, I don't see it, you know,everyone says, well, it doesn't affect me.
It's only for the handguns.
I don't have handguns.
It doesn't, it's only for the hunters.
I don't hunt.
It's only for, so the hand gunner are animportant piece of the puzzle for the gun

(32:13):
stores because talk, talking with the gunstores, they say the hunters, they come
in, they buy their rifle, they get it allkitted out, and that was a great sale.
And they come in once a year andthey get more hunting ammunition.
Yeah.
Right.
The, uh, the sports shooters are theones that are coming in, getting lots
of ammo, getting new kit, gettingaccessories, and the handguns, of
course, is a big portion of that.
And so if people want to have a placewhere they can get their hunting rifle

(32:37):
and their hunting shotgun, they'regonna want to speak up when the hand
gunners who are basically subsidizingthis store to be able to stay open.
So when you, we talk about, hey,people gotta rally together and
get on the same page, you know, I,I did a podcast, uh, with a fellow
who owns a suppressor manufacturingmanufacturer business, uh, KGM mm-hmm.

(33:01):
In the states.
And I, I got some people trying chime in.
It's like, oh, that's all well and good,but seriously, why are you talking about
suppressors and why they should be legal?
And like, you should be looking atthese issues right here and now.
Right.
And okay, we're always gonna needpeople to hold the line, but you're
also gonna need people who canpush things further and forward.
Yeah.
'cause if all you're ever concernedwith is holding that line, that line

(33:23):
moves back, okay, hold it there.
That line moves back again.
Okay.
Hold it there.
Someone's gonna have to pushthat line in the other direction.
Yeah.
And what I could see is the, uh, when Itry and look at this and I don't have the
answers, and I try and find out, talk toother people who might have the answers,
I see some of our gun advocacy advocate.

(33:44):
I see some of our gun advocacy groupsas being very, very good at raising,
uh, donations and memberships byspeaking to their base and perhaps
not putting the same efforts in, inareas that could actually move the
needle forward or unite communities.

(34:05):
Mm-hmm.
They'll fight with each other.
They'll, uh, uh.
You know, I'm, I'm gonna be cautiousabout how I go here 'cause I don't wanna
be tearing down certain groups because
everyone does.
No, listen.
Every every group has its place andadvocacy is incredibly important.
I agree with you.
Uh, one of the things though thatI've always thought that we should be
advocating more towards is it's really,it's, it's really simple to send me, you

(34:28):
know, email blasts and you're advocating,as you said to the base, but why?
But we need to be advocating andspeaking to the non firearms owners.
'cause there's lots of uneducated peopleout there that don't understand the,
the, the, i, I know a lot of people.
I think, actually, I think last timewe heard, we talked about during COV,
a lot of people got educated about whatit means to actually own a firearm.

(34:49):
Because I know I was getting contactedby people saying, I wanna buy a gun.
Cool.
Uh, what's your pal?
You know, just gimme, I needyour pal so I can verify it.
What's a pal?
They just didn't know, like theydidn't know they needed a license.
They didn't know they neededto go through like training.
They didn't know that to take the, youknow, the, the pal, the PAL course.
They didn't know all, you know thatoh, your weekly, you know, your daily

(35:09):
is subjected to a background check orlike that, like we say these things,
but how much of that is getting outbeyond just the base of the firearms
owners and now to the general public.
But at that town hall meeting, I rememberI talked to the MP and I said in my
previous experience with, uh, woundedWarriors, uh, when Winters Canada,
where was, uh, we talked about, youknow, advocacy for, uh, veterans with

(35:30):
PTSD and first responders with thatas well as their fa as the families.
And we found a huge component ofthat was education, not only of to
the families what was out there, butalso to groups, the regular everyday
population, but also to the governmentof kind of, this is actually what
these men and women are facing.
Um, here's what you need to improve.

(35:51):
And so I asked, I told the mp and I'mlike, one of the things that I think
would be really helpful as a government.
Would be to create a simpleinformation portal of anyone who's
interested in owning a firearm.
Here's the steps you have to do, whichis, it's all government run, you know,
the PAL course, the safety course.
Yes.
It's, it's run by the F-S-C-S-O, butit's essentially, you know, government

(36:13):
mandated and, you know, regulated or likethat to provide an education platform for
anyone who's interested in, you know, youknow, purchasing and owning a firearm.
What it takes to get there like that.
Uh, unfortunately I was told, well,that's, that's your responsibility,
not the government's responsibilityto, you know, provide that education.
Uh, so advocating forthe base is excellent.

(36:35):
Firing it up is great becauseyou need to have that.
But, you know, as you said, we dokinda need to unite a bit better, but
we also need to educate the populationthat doesn't understand what's what
we, what we go through to own afirearm, what we go through to be
part of that community, or like that.
I, I think there's a number of stepsthat are already in place that people.

(36:55):
Like you say, they don't understand,but you know, I don't know.
You're not gonna convince thepeople who don't like them.
No, no.
Uh, the people who do like 'em,you don't have to convince.
Right?
Yeah.
Because they, they already like 'emfor whatever their reason's gonna be.
But the, the political side, I, I,I think personally, uh, educating.
The base as to how toproperly approach politicians.

(37:20):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
In a respectful way.
Yeah.
How to apply pressure properly.
And so that if, let's say, and how, howto form a, a cogent argument or a, uh,
something that would be politically,um, distasteful for, uh, somebody
to want to wear if the conversationshifts, if it's, Hey, we're gonna ban
guns because look at all the shootings.

(37:41):
Uh, no more guns, some more shootings.
Right?
That logic flow is easy to digest.
Yeah.
Yeah.
In a quick tag line.
Right.
But the reality of it is, okay,we've been taking all these steps
to ban and shootings are goingup, or crimes going up, right?
Yeah.
Where is our, uh, where areour efforts best served?

(38:01):
And I think it has to become politicallyconvenient for, uh, people to.
Uh, to be able to speakout in a certain way.
'cause I, I think there's a, like,we look at cancel culture, right?
And, uh, I see cancel culturekind of going by the wayside.
Uh, people are, that was at,at least it doesn't have the
same push that it had before.

(38:22):
Mm-hmm.
Uh, but people like to belong andthey want, they don't want to be found
on the wrong side of an argument.
And, uh, everyone else issaying a certain thing.
And I guess it's easy enough to do.
Like you see that often enough.
How do you make it easy for themasses to push together in a way
that's gonna be beneficial foreverybody, for, for the masses, right?
Mm-hmm.
And including the gun owners.

(38:43):
And, and I think, uh, that'swhere our efforts have
to be.
Uh, uh, yeah.
I would, I I would agree.
And, uh, to your comment, uh, that,you know, you're never gonna convince
someone who doesn't like him.
And you, you're right.
I, like, I, I liken it to this.
When I was in, um, college and I wastaking, uh, I was in firefighter training
and I was part of my medical training,they said, uh, 10% of the people.

(39:05):
No matter what you do are gonna die.
Sure.
10% of the people you runacross, no matter what happens
to them, are gonna live.
Sure.
It's that 80%.
That's the, that's the group youneed to deal with with like that.
And I, I, you know, I just a quick, youknow, point before we get to the second
one you said, but I've been in thehomes of, you know, I, I die a diehard,

(39:25):
you know, some diehard, you know,liberals or diehard anti-gun people.
And then they ask, well,why do you need a gun?
And I'm like, I don't need one.
Mm-hmm.
I, I enjoy having it.
It's, it's a privilege I've earnedand this is the steps I've taken to
do it, but I can't just walk aroundwith it, you know, in my, like, on my,
it's not like in the US I can't walkaround with it on my, like, I, I don't,
I don't have a carry permit or likethat, like that doesn't exist so much.

(39:46):
And it, it's hard, extremelydifficult to get in Canada.
I don't just walk around.
There's a, there's rulesto transporting these guns.
There's rules to storage.
And after explain all thisto the person, they're like.
Well, that makes sense.
Hmm.
Okay.
Like, I understand that and I'm like,they didn't know that before and all
of a sudden it, they may still notthink, oh, I, I don't want a gun.
Hmm.

(40:07):
But I understand necessarilywhy you want one.
I understand the steps you have to takethen to get one so you're not convincing
them, but they're not necessarily,and then now, so diehard kind of like,
well, I didn't know that had to happen.
If that's the case.
Oh, okay.
I guess I'm okay with it.
If you guys want one, they don'tnecessarily need to be the one, they don't
wanna necessarily want to have to havethe, be the one that actually buys it or
own it, but all of a sudden they're nolonger as hardcore about me owning one.

(40:31):
And I, and I think you're right.
You don't have to convinceother people of your side.
And I think that's a, a losing battle.
Mm-hmm.
Um, but having them.
Asking some questions.
No.
Opening them up.
Yeah.
Why do you need a gun?
Well, some people actuallydo need a gun, right?
Like some people, noteverybody lives in the city.
Yeah.
And some people who live inthe city probably need a gun.

(40:51):
Yes.
Yeah.
But, uh, but definitely, butlike, yeah, you're right.
I, I have friends who are farmers andlike that, and they have, you know, they,
they, they need one on their property.
Why do they want, well, because they needto defend their, you know, what their,
their, you know, their, uh, their animals.
They need to defend, be able to defendtheir property from large breeders.
They need to be able to themselves.
If they go out with like that,uh, you know, why do you hunt?

(41:12):
Well, 'cause I enjoy it.
Or like that.
Well, aren't, don't you feelbad about, you know, taking,
you know, killing a deer?
No, because I have a tag, becausethey've done studies to realize that
we're allowed to take this many deerwithout affecting the population.
In fact.
We're making sure that everything'sin a, in a healthy balance.
'cause if there's too much of acertain, you know, animal like that,
it's no longer a healthy ecosystemor like, you know, same thing.

(41:33):
Why do you fish?
Well, because I enjoy it.
Yeah.
For one.
Um, and two, it's becauseI'm allowed to do it.
And because you can't havetoo much of one thing.
It's like you, you can't eattoo much pizza or you can't
have too much McDonald's 'causeyou're not gonna feel good.
Yeah.
It took me a long
time to put that correlation
of it.
Of course we can dowhatever we feel like that.
Yeah.
Like, like we still do it, obviously,but, uh, but you know what I mean, it's

(41:56):
that it's the whole, a lot of peopledon't understand like that, that the
conservation, you know, and hunting isn'tjust about going and killing an animal.
It's a one.
You know, and people ask me, uh, I'mnot really a, a waterfowl hunter.
Sure.
'cause I don't really like duck.
Sure.
I'm a big, I'm a thing.
I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna huntsomething that I'm not gonna eat.
I
agree.
Uh,

(42:17):
I have friends thatlove waterfowl hunting.
It's just not really mything or anything like that.
I like, you know, I'll hunt deer, I'llgo Turkey hunting, uh, you know, and I'll
go, you know, farm it and stuff like that.
I help out a friend's, uh, farm and he'slike, you can hunt on my property, but if
you see a coyote, you got, you shoot it.
Yep.
Okay.
No problem.
'cause there's rules.
Yeah, there's rules around that.
I'm helping 'em out, but, uh, I,by not just a, you know, it's just

(42:39):
not really, it's just not my thing.
And again, I might get some hatefulcomments there, but that does, it's just,
but it's because I have a, I have, I havea rule in my head that I will, I'm not
gonna kill someone that I'm not gonna eat.
Right.
Yeah.
No, I don't think you get a
hateful comments for that.
Yeah.
You know, there's, I'm stillsurprised by the number of people
who don't know that you can actuallystill buy handguns in Canada.
Mm-hmm.
Um.

(43:00):
So for employment reasons, if you needit for your job or for work, you can,
you can go ahead and still buy hand guys.
You can.
Yep, yep.
There are provisions there andthere's a lot of people who
don't actually understand thetotality of what that means.
And if they, so I've, I, without goingtoo far into it, if they're interested,
they can listen to past podcasts.
They, with Rachel Atilla.
Mm-hmm.

(43:20):
Yep.
She got her authorization tocarry, purchased some pangan.
I put together, I think it was30 pages of, um, material for the
National Firearms Association.
You can download that forfree, step by step shows you,
will, you meet the criteria.
What do those criteria look like?
And, 'cause I think it's importantthat people like absolutely don't

(43:40):
push things in, in a way thatthey're not supposed to be pushed.
Yeah.
Don't find a workaround in a waythat you're not supposed to find
a workaround, but be educated asto what the rules actually are.
Yeah.
And, and, uh, I think people can be prettysurprised at how many, uh, individuals.
Still qualify for purchasing a handgun.
Yeah.
Now I will say, going back to thedefense and law enforcement side of

(44:03):
this, ever since they decided to putthis freeze and this ban, 'cause they
froze handgun sales, but they also bannedimports, uh, initially right now with
the exception of government agency.
Sure.
But, but when they banned theimports, they actually banned it.
They just blanket banded earth like that.
So everything, it took a littlewhile for us to figure out how
to actually get handguns back inthe country, and it is still very

(44:26):
difficult really to bring handguns in.
Uh, so what they've, by doing it,they've also made it very difficult
to bring handguns in to support.
Law enforcement agencies andmilitary agencies within Canada.
Um, it's, uh, an ex, there's a,used to be, I'd just be able to
apply for an international importcertificate, an IEC, right?
That's no longer allowed.

(44:47):
Really?
I have to apply for what they call an armsammunitions permit from Global Affairs.
Well, I can't, but I, as a, as amanufacturer, I can't apply for that.
I have to get my customsbroker to apply for it.
Right?
And to do that, I have tohave commercial invoicing.
I have to have FRT, which isthe registration completed.
I have to have list of serialnumbers from the manufacturer.
It's a whole long list of stuff.

(45:07):
Is it something we've kinda workedout now and we kinda guys, we've
as a smooth trajectory to do now?
Yes, we do, but it's an extra,it's a couple extra steps.
That initially, I remember whenthey first, when they first put the
freeze in, and I had a client cometo me and say, okay, we're we wanna
order a thousand more handguns?
And we literally told 'em,we don't know how to do this.
Wow.
'cause now there is no vehicle to do it.

(45:29):
Wow.
And it took us six months with workingwith Global Affairs to figure it out.
Six months.
And meanwhile you have an agency thatcan't get their duty issued firearms
because, uh, so when that, whenthat occurred or like that it's all
No, it's all been smoothed out now.
But again, are you surprised?
Well, no, but you know,because, uh, it always.
I, I don't know.

(45:49):
It, it always makes me scratch myhead a little bit as to like, number
one, why it would end up like that.
Like the, that no one can bring it in.
Number two, what had to happen in order tobe able to, uh, figure out a way around,
would that be policy interpretation?
Was new law created
and, uh, not that I'm aware of.
Or like the arms, the armsemissions ity existed, right?
I guess they just found, okay,here's a vehicle where we can

(46:11):
do it now with, like that.
So they kind of switched over tothis, but, uh, it just, it, when you
put a blanket ban on something, youdon't realize that it affects, you
don't, it's hard to exempt somethingwhen you, when you, you know, like,
so it was an interesting, uh, acouple years, a couple years ago.
It was an interesting coupleof months there like that, but
I believe it.
But I, I guess that goes tothe point which, and most
likely they found another way.

(46:31):
There's already something in there.
So there's the letter of the lawand there's the intent of the law.
Mm-hmm.
And, um.
If they're able to find adifferent way around it, that means
basically the intent of the lawis being applied through policy.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, through civil servantswhom we don't elect in or out.

(46:52):
Nope.
Nope.
And who will maintain through governments,and I'm finding just not on the business
side, but the individual side, theability to navigate the, the civil servant
bureaucracy is, uh, it's an art form.
It's not something Yes.
It's definitely not something thatI would, that comes natural to.
To me, and I've gotten a lotof coaching and assistance

(47:14):
in how to be able to do that.
But that's another area where I thinkthe, uh, the general firearms wanting
public can use help from their mm-hmm.
Uh, different.
Well, and, and I'll tell you likeTravis, so over nine years of this
job, that's something I've had to, uh,really work on trying to navigate and,
uh, work to, you know, I work with all.
The government agencies.

(47:35):
'cause I, I have to
Mm.
Uh, and the government no bureaucraciesbecause otherwise nothing gets,
nothing gets done on my side.
So.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, I'm pretty, you know, you learn to bepretty well versed on it, but it's taken
years to get, figure it out like that.
So it is not the average person, unlessyou are constantly bidding on government
contracts or like that, why would youknow about the bureaucracy process to,
but it's a
game to go through it, right?

(47:56):
Yeah.
It's no
hate against the
individuals in there.
Absolutely not.
It's no hate against, they'redoing, they're doing a job.
They're just like anyone else's.
So like that.
And it's not that they're, youknow, they're not trying to make,
you know, things harder for you.
They're just working in oneoffice in a, in a very big system.
Every once in a while you'll findthat one individual who will, uh,
make things really difficult for you.

(48:16):
You'll find that one individual whowill make things really easy for you.
Right.
It's just like.
Policing or anywhere
you, you would find that in at, at aline, at the drive, anywhere Starbucks
or like that.
You're always gonna find that1% policing or just switched
straight off Somebody like that.
Yeah,
that 1%, that's terrible, butthat 98% that the masses are

(48:37):
going to be just, we're humans.
Animals.
Yep.
There's a reason whyanimals have game trails.
It's because they find a safe path.
They take that safe path.
Yeah.
It's a path of least resistance.
And that's the area that I think thatindividuals in the firearms community
can use the most help on is how do youunderstand that game and that safe path.

(49:01):
So you can allow the civil servantto do their job in a way that doesn't
make them look bad, allows 'em todo it in a way that they've got
accountability and defensibility andthey're showing the public they're
doing the right thing, but also allowsyou to get where you need to go.
Yeah.
And now I remember Dave Tomlinson, uh,deceased many years ago, but he started
the NFA, I think he started it, buthe was basically the NFA for a number

(49:23):
of years, and he put out this, um,authorization to transport a cheat sheet.
And prior to him putting that out.
The firearms program says, okay,you've got a restricted firearm.
You, if you want to transport it,you're gonna need a separate document.
An authorization to transport.
Yep.
Yep.
So you fill this out.

(49:43):
Your, your firearms licenseis good for five years.
Your a TT is good forone, two, or three years.
How long do you want it to be good for?
Right.
And so people have to fill it out.
What time of the day do youthink you're gonna transport it?
So they fill it out, where areyou gonna transport it from?
Well, and from my house over to the rings.
And they fill out the name of the ringsand they go through this whole thing.
Dave Tomlinson says, hold on a second.
If it's good for threeyears, pick three years.

(50:05):
When are you gonna transport it?
Well, why would you want to be acriminal if you're transporting
outside of the hours that you putdown because your car broke down
or because there's a traffic down.
Yeah.
2,400 to 2,400.
Uh, what range?
All approved gun clubs are ranges.
So he created this sort of thing.
The firearms program looksat it and says, yeah, okay.
I guess that makes sense.
And after a while, nobody hadto fill out by this cheat sheet.

(50:29):
They just knew how to issue it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It was easy for them.
Made sense.
It was easy for the individual.
They play, played by the rules, butyou always need those outliers who
can objectively look at it and finda way that allows the, um, civil
server to do their job and save face.
And that's something, that's why Icreated that template on a, on ATCs.
Mm-hmm.
It's not a cheat.

(50:49):
It's not a workaround.
It just tells people who'sactually eligible for it.
Yeah.
And, and, and how to do it.
And I think if we can start pushing.
Those sort of things, we mightfind more effective change on,
uh, our ability to use guns.
Yeah.
Yep.
As opposed to that one,the civil server one.
And then the, of course, thepolitical side of which I'm,

(51:11):
I'm not a political guy.
I, I talk to other peoplemuch smarter than myself.
It is an
art, uh, to manage politicsor anything like that.
And yeah.
That's, it's not something a lotof people don't have a lot of PA
lot of politicians don't have theability to work the political system.
Right.
That, let's face it.
Sure.
So it's a, it's, it is an artform and there's some, there's
some people out there that canjust do it expertly like that.

(51:31):
Mm-hmm.
Uh, and they have my respect thatactually that they can actually
survive in that, that that arena.
Because
if they can do it withintegrity, well, yeah.
Hell yeah.
As long as it, yeah, that's, I say as
long as they do withintegrity because Wow.
Um, but, uh, but it, it's adifficult, difficult system.
But I agree, I agree with basicallyeverything you're saying is that like,
you know, that you, you need, we need tobe able to be a little more educated, a

(51:52):
little more ability to work within thesystem that unfortunately we have to.
That we live with in Canadaand we need to be able to, um,
you know, utilize it to the, uh, our,our, our benefit a bit more like that.
Right?
So, but by educatingourselves on how to do it,
and I, and I think if people lookat it from a different perspective,
'cause there's just us against Imentality that I quite often see

(52:13):
and I get where it comes from.
I mean, when there's so many rulesthat are put on an individual or
on a group, all of a sudden theystart making their own rules.
'cause they wanna feellike they have Yeah, yeah.
Their own control over things.
And then they, you findthese different subsections.
But if you can learn how to use therules or change the rules politically
or through, uh, the civil servantprocess, uh, maybe people will

(52:38):
start playing together because theyunderstand how that game is played.
And yeah, maybe.
Yeah.
And, you know, I don't have itfully fleshed out on the, the path
forward, but it's something I'vebeen thinking about lately as to.
How businesses, organizations, individualscan, uh, achieve an ends that meets
public safety needs and allows civilservants to show their due diligence.

(53:01):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, and, and I think, uh, you know,most gun owners out there agree that,
you know, like we, we play a huge partin the public safety aspect of it.
Mm-hmm.
And we need to, in order to, we needto, you know, like in order, because
it's important for us to, to haveeveryone to, you know, for us to
be seen as we're agents of safety.
We're not agents of chaosor anything like that.
Like we're, we're here to, yeah, wewanna defend our right to own these

(53:23):
things and use 'em, but in a safeand respectful manner to everyone
involved, something like that.
So, uh, we need to be, have, we needto be on, you know, the, on that, a
voice on that board of public safety,uh, you know, with everyone, you know,
with within the conversation because.
We need to prove, youknow, that's part of it.
The, the whole talk and communicationeveryth, like that we, you know,

(53:43):
well it's, it's how you comportyourself, I think is big.
But I also think that the morethat people harp on a certain
issue, the more they make thatissue the thing in the spotlight.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It, it's like I, I've always beenadvocating for like, why, why
do we make the gun the issue?
Like if, if shootings are aproblem, the gun's not the problem.
The shooting's a problem.
Yeah.
Right.

(54:03):
Gun violence is just violenceand someone chose to use a
gun or whatever it might be.
Yeah.
Why don't we look at the violence issue?
What, what's that coming from?
Right.
Yeah.
Is it, um, um, is it low income?
Is it, um, uh, lower education?
Is it, um, drugs?
Is it at risk?
Like, all, all of these different, likehow do we approach it without falling

(54:25):
into the same trap of looking at the tool,the implement as opposed Well, it's, it's
easier.
It's really easy to blend the tool.
Yeah.
It, it is over.
A, the larger problem asa, as a whole or like that.
And, you know, I, I, I, I, yeah.
It's, it's a men mental healthis a, it's a tricky, I haven't

(54:45):
worked in it for years.
It's a, it, it is a tricky,tricky thing to try to wrap
your head around or like that.
And it is so many, it'sa, such a layered problem.
Um, let's
talk about, so you had a child mm-hmm.
Last time that we werehere and, and, uh, so
what about three years old now?
Uh, he is three and three and a half now.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Just, uh, three, threeand a half going on 10.

(55:07):
Uh, it, it feels like, uh, yeah.
How's that working out?
Yeah.
You know what I, I mean, I,it has completely changed
my entire outlook on life.
I mean, you hear this from lots of parentsand like that, but it, it really has.
Okay.
Why and how, tell me,
uh,

(55:28):
prior to having him, I would exp you know.
My de I was dedicated to my,you know, my, my partner.
I was dedicated to my job.
But, you know, both those things cantrade off each other, what I was doing
that day, or like that, I can honestlytell you that, and, you know, this
isn't, my boss may be listening tothis or like that, so it's nothing, I'm
not dedicated to my job there, George.
Uh, it hasn't, but it's, my entirelife is now, everything I do is

(55:53):
basically dedicated to hammer like that.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, you know, with both also tryingto maintain myself and, you know,
my relationship and like that.
So, but it's, um,
and it's, it's, it's, it'sdifficult, especially like I can't
raise in the way I was raised.
I was born in the early eighties.
I grew up Sure.

(56:13):
I grew up to, to boomer parents.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, you know, they, they, if you wannacall me, I guess you would call me
a millennial or like that, but, uh,what they call the el, you know, I've
heard that term, elder, millennial.
I grew up, you know, I grew up stillbeing able to, you know, go home and
come back when the, you know, whenthe lights turned on or like that.
And there was no, you know, smartphonesdidn't exist that my fir when I went

(56:33):
on my tour, you know, at Afghanistan,smartphones didn't exist yet.
Like that, like, so, like iPodswere around, but that was 2008,
I think 2008, 2009 was like that.
Yeah.
Like I didn't get my first smartphone,I think till 2011 or something.
Yeah.
So I didn't grow up with, you know,that, that, that type of technology.
And, uh, so, you know, like I, I admitlike, you know, like if I opted out
or anything like that, I got hit.

(56:54):
Sure.
Well, you can't do that anymore like that,I guess based on if you've You can, you
can, but, but that's, it doesn't work.
It's, it's not seen the same way.
It doesn't work like that.
So I'm trying to navigate thismuch i's a bunch of parents out
there and, um, yeah, and it's just.
He, he's great.
You know, his personality'scoming out now.

(57:14):
It's, you know, it's fun.
Like, uh, I was on the way over hereactually driving over from, uh, from,
uh, we're staying downtown, uh, yeah,Vancouver and I was driving over
here and he was talking on the phone.
He's back in Ontario, so this isthe three hour difference he's
getting ready for bed and he,
not, not a proud moment for menecessarily, but he drops his first FBO
F-bomb to me about that on the phone.

(57:35):
And I'm like, oh God, buddy.
What'd you learn that word from?
I like dad thinking fully,well, it's probably me.
Uh, it's hard to take the army out ofthe guy or like that, and I, I, I have
to be really, I have to watch my, mywife's constantly telling me, you know,
watch your French or anything like that.
I don't take the
guy outta the army.
Can't take the army outta the guy.
Yeah,
but you, you talk about,you know, you can't hit him.

(57:55):
When I, um, had my first kid, I lookedand I was like, why would anybody
want to hit, that's their child.
I have no interest in doing it either.
Like, yeah.
Before I had my child, I was like,well, I just, I guess that's normal, I
guess, how, that's how things are done.
And I thought about it.
I says, well.
Like I was stubborn.
Stubborn, stubborn, stubborn.
Maybe ODD, what do they call it?

(58:17):
Oppositional defiance.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like super stubborn, right?
Uh, and A DHD.
So that was diagnosed at grade three,severe A DHD, and, and I look at it.
Okay, so you hit your kidand do you get compliance?
Maybe, maybe When that threatof hitting is over top of them.
Yeah.
What happens if you don't,then what do you do?
Do you hit harder?
That's it.
Right?

(58:37):
Well, at what point do you stop?
Yeah.
Right.
So if at some point you gottastop, maybe just don't start.
Yeah.
And it's amazing how much, um,
better I found the abilityto raise a child by.
Giving them a layer of control andthat that doesn't mean that they've

(58:59):
got, they, they run the show.
Yeah.
They, everything.
They go, it's like, do youwanna go to bed now or do you
wanna go to bed in 10 minutes?
Like, either way they're going to bed.
But if you take away their control,they no longer have the ability
to be able to do things 'causeyou're bigger and stronger.
Um, they don't learn howto deal with problems.
It's a world of hurt for yourself.
Yeah.
And, and for them.

(59:20):
Well, and have found, like, it, it,I mean, I, I shouldn't be surprised
that already a three and a half.
He's stubborn as all hell.
He's, he's, he's a mixture ofmy, my, by myself and my wife.
He's Irish.
I'm, I have s Scottishand Norwegian background.
Not exactly the most cl known to bethe most compliant people on earth.
So, uh, so he's, he, you know, andalready he's uh, you know, pretty,

(59:42):
pretty stubborn with of stuff.
But is he testing my patients?
Absolutely.
Like every day, anything like that.
But it's also found that it's.
You know, I improving myself in orderto be patient, which I wasn't really
all that, uh, not my strong suit.
I will fully admit.
It's not, uh, uh, the only time I've everbeen patient up till now, essentially,
is when I'm behind, you know, a riflescope on a long distance range where

(01:00:03):
I actually have the ability to kind ofjust calm down on a little bit like that.
But when he's yelling and screamingand crying and I have to sit there
and just kinda hold him while hegets through his fit or like that.
Mm-hmm.
That's, that's a whole other,that's something I, I, I wasn't
capable of until I had him.
But
that pushings important too.
Right.
And when you reframe the, uh, the problem,so you've done it in, in a couple ways.

(01:00:24):
So, uh, sometimes I look at peoplethat are really difficult to deal with.
I'm like, wait a minute.
They're teaching me how todeal with difficult people.
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So if I can deal with thisperson, everything else is gonna
be gravy, little mental reframe,same situation, but easier.
Right.
For me and for them, uh, when they push,like I tell my kids, you know, it's good.
I'm glad you're pushing.
It's important you push becauseif you're not, you're not growing.

(01:00:46):
Mm-hmm.
Um.
However, there's ways that you can pushand find success and there's ways that
you can push that's gonna define yourgetting your head against a brick wall.
Yeah.
And so really quickly you start teaching'em how to push and how to push in a
way that'll, like, I want nothing morethan my kids to not need me and Yeah.
Be a hundred percent want to bewith me, not need to be with me.

(01:01:08):
Yeah.
Right.
And, uh, I think they both reachedthat, that have at an early age, and
thankfully they still want to be with me.
Well, I, I, I'm, I hope oneday he gets to that point.
'cause there is, there is definitelytimes through the day where
I'm like, just gimme a second.
Okay.
Like, could you not?
But again, he's probably still reallyyoung, but, uh, but yeah, I mean,
but when it came, like, one thingI was not prepared for was, uh, and

(01:01:33):
I, we had read all up about, uh, youknow, like, uh, about postpartum.
Yep.
Getting ready for potentially with,you know, with my partner like that,
supporting her during the process.
I was not prepared for myself Mm. Togo through a battle with depression.
Hmm.
Right.
Yeah.
No, that's it.
It people don't look at the guys Yeah.

(01:01:55):
When they, when they go through it.
Yeah.
And I, I mean, as we talked about in thelast time I was here, anyone who you know,
was, is meeting me for the first time.
Uh, I, you know, have PTSD related to mymil military service from my last tour.
Yep.
I battled, I've been battling for years.
Uh, it was back in 2012, Ialmost lost my battle with it.
Mm-hmm.
And I attempted to, madea, made a suicide attempt.

(01:02:18):
Thank God it failed.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, but I was at one of my lowestmoments at that moment, um, was,
you know, I can't even kill myself.
Like, how much of a loser am I thatI can't even do this or like that.
And I managed to, we, you know, throughhelp from outside sources as well as,
uh, just, you know, being who I am,I was able to pull myself out of it.

(01:02:40):
Thank again, thank God.
Mm-hmm.
But, and I've been, I've been really goodfor the last couple years and then, yeah,
all of a sudden it was maybe a year agothat I just suddenly kind of fell back
into a pretty deep depression earth likethat I realized I was kind of, I felt
just kind of alone in the whole thing.
I thought that of how did you realizethat you're falling into the depression?

(01:03:01):
What did that look like?
Really compensating throughout the day?
Compensating.
Compensating throughout the day,acting like everything was good.
'cause I felt I needed to, Ifelt I really needed to around
my partner to be supportive.
I really felt I needed to be right.
I, around my son, showing him a strong,you know, uh, character and a strong
person in front of him that would, youknow, kind of lead him through some

(01:03:23):
stuff, uh, being, you know, reactive and,but being, you know, present at work.
But then when I had my times.
She'd put, you know, when he'd gone tobed and sometimes, often when my wife
would put him to bed, we, we'd taketurns to do it and everything like
that, but sometimes when she'd put himin bed, she would fall asleep as well.
'cause it's really easy to fallasleep with a little child on top
of you when they're nice and calmand they're nicely breathing.

(01:03:45):
It's really, it's really like, that's evenbetter than, that's better than any calm
app or anything in front of you like that.
Like, uh, so it's really, really, youknow, that's, that's like her happy place.
But then I'm by myself for acouple hours and after I've done
all the dishes and the cleaning,I've realized the house is quiet.
Hmm.
And then all of a sudden Irealized that the house is quiet,

(01:04:07):
but it's not quiet in my head.
And, uh, just, you know, I feltlike alone or like that and kind of
just like, uh, and I, I recognize.
This path.
'cause I'm like, I'vebeen down this before.
I don't like, I, I know, I knowwhere this is going or like that.
But, uh, why, why am I feeling this way?

(01:04:28):
I have a great job.
I have a family.
I have my son.
They're all awesome Earth like that.
What, why am I feelinglike I'm not needed?
Why am not wanted?
Why?
Like, why am I feelingI'm not good enough?
And this is why I ask.
Because you've been down the path.
Mm-hmm.
Not everybody has.
And if they start going downthat path, they might not realize

(01:04:48):
they're actually on a path.
Yeah.
And, and being aware.
And the other thing I find in ourcommunity, in the gun community,
nobody wants to reach out for help.
Yeah.
Nobody wants to talk to a doctor.
Why?
Because secondly say, oh, havingsome issues, is a doctor gonna now
say, oh, firearms license gone.
And maybe that's, maybethat's your big hobby.
Maybe they've got a biginvestment in there.

(01:05:08):
Maybe it's a big part of their socialgroup and their life and all the rest.
And I'll say this much.
Most doctors won't.
Oh, yeah.
Most, uh, psychiatrists, most, there'salways gonna be an outlier, but the
vast majority of them realize thatthere is a separation between these two.
And that worry that the gun community has.
Yeah.
Go talk to someone.

(01:05:28):
Well,
it is no different from all theadvocacy I did prior to when I was
still with wound Warriors, and stillto this day still do a little bit.
It like that is that a lot of, a lot ofpolice officers, a lot of firefighters,
a lot of military members, they,they think if I come forward with
my prom, that's the end of my job.
That's the end of my career.
Mm-hmm.
They're gonna boot me out.
They're gonna see me as weak.
They're gonna see me as, it's thesame, you know, I, my site, when

(01:05:50):
I, when I finally, you know, when Ireached back out and I got help with my
psychiatrist, it was never the question.
Mm-hmm.
Well, you shouldn't have guns then.
It never even came up.
Right.
It was just, okay, how can,how can we help you right now?
Like that she knows I own guns.
We've talked about it.
She knows what I do fora living or like that.
It was, wasn't even because of changed.
It's not gonna change.
She, it's nothing's, that's not gonnabe a factor or anything like that.

(01:06:12):
Right.
We know historic, historicallyand statistically suicides are
not actually, people don't chooseguns to kill themselves with.
Statistically it's many other factorsthey can choose, but the majority of
suicides are not done through a gun.
Um, see, even though, evenif you have one in the house,
so I, some of the statistics, and Imight not be up to date, women typically

(01:06:36):
offer pills and men, uh, will typicallyopt for a firearm from what I've seen
if, if they've got that availability.
But it's possible.
Um, but, but a rope is a lot more common.
Yeah.
I have found, and, and, uh, you know, um,I, I told you before I came out here than
my dad, so since I was last year mm-hmm.
Uh, I've lost two more friends andI can tell you neither of them.

(01:06:58):
Chose a gun because they wanted to leave.
You know, like I, I've talkedto people who've survived it.
Mm-hmm.
And myself, having survived myattempt, I wanted to leave my
body intact for whoever found me.
Yeah.
I didn't want it to be a closedcasket for them Earth like that.
If they, so they wanted, ifthey wanted to say goodbye.
I don't, I didn't, I don't like the ideaof an open casting myself, but it was

(01:07:20):
still something I didn't wanna leave.
Well, you don't really
want somebody coming inand cleaning up that mask.
No.
And if that's part of thethought process, that's good.
That's healthy.
That's, uh, I, I think, um.
Some people, they just reach apoint where they just don't care.
Yeah.
And, and I've said this one on thepodcast before, but I remember one
doctor saying, you know, I've taken thisapproach and I haven't lost anybody yet.

(01:07:42):
Knock on wood.
And he says, somebody comes in and theysay, you know, I've got suicidal ideation.
I am, um, I'm really depressed.
I don't see why I belong here.
No one's gonna miss me if I'm gone.
I think, um, I'm doingmore harm than good.
All all the typicalstuff that comes up Yeah.
Which is completely off base,but that's your perspective.
Yeah.
At the time.

(01:08:02):
And the doctor says, you might be right.
Yeah.
Maybe killing yourselfis the right option.
However, right now is, you're not in theframe of mind to make a proper decision.
Let's, let's circle backthree months from now.
Let's try a few different things.
If it still comes back and it, itturns out that you are actually a big
loser and the world would be betterwithout you, then uh, then we can

(01:08:24):
take a look at next steps for you.
Yeah.
He says to date never lost somebody.
Yeah.
If they're able to just pushforward past that and provide
a little bit of an alternativeperspective as to their situation.
Yeah.
Because like another friendof mine, Jay Bud, he's talking
about, you know, the darkest days.
He has, he likens it to, um, and hesaid this on the podcast, so it's

(01:08:47):
not like I'm out outing someone.
Um, he was in Afghanistan andum, was a sniper with them.
So he likens it to being inthe hills in the mountains.
He'll go out and it's a big old storm andit's dark and it's blowing and it's hard.
And he gets into his shelter and some ofthe best blueboard days he's had is the
day after that when it's all blown over.

(01:09:09):
Yeah.
And you have that comparison and if youknow that there's gonna be something
else on the other side, but yeah.
You just gotta be ableto hunker down for now.
Yeah.
And like, uh, so I, I remember I, I sawthere's this video that every once in
a while creeps up, but like it stuckin my head is that it was just a.
It was, uh, just askingout there into the ether.
Um, you know, men, who do you talkto when you're, when you're sad?

(01:09:34):
Nobody, every singleguy interviewed No one.
Or they're like, no one,no one gives a shit.
Yeah.
Or the, or the ones I don't tellanybody 'cause it'll be used against me.
Uhhuh.
And it's just line, a line of men justgoing like, one guy's, like, we can talk
to people like, whatcha you talking about?
Like that.
And, you know, and that kindof leads down, you know, the
algorithms in social media.

(01:09:55):
Then that leads down a just video uponvideo of guys just saying, uh, not
necessarily all bad videos, but just,uh, of like the videos we see where it's
just men, not men being misunderstoodor men not being understood about
like, why, or being emotional andlike that, but no one can, they can't
talk about it or things like that.
And then, or, or you get the,the, the Chris Rock video where he

(01:10:16):
is like, you know, only I. Yeah.
Three things in life or loveunconditionally like that.
Sure.
Your wife, your dog, your child.
Mm-hmm.
Men are only loved for what theyprovide and stuff like that.
And like, but like you start hearingthese things and stuff like that.
And that's where it's kind of, it's fun atfirst, but this is also, if you're already
in that depressive state, I can tell youthat's where, that's where social media

(01:10:38):
starts becoming an ugly thing and not, youalready are in a bit of a fragile state
and now you really start believing it.
And that's what, that's kinda whatwas happening to me a bit as well.
And I just felt, so I have, you know,and I, I have two or three friends out
near where I live out in Durham region.
All of us, I have young kids.
Yep.
And I started, you know, and a lot, allof us had served in the army together.

(01:11:01):
We were the closestfriends back in the day.
We, like dad, we all hadworn the uniform together.
Some of us are, one of 'em even worksin the same industry as me, like in,
and we're probably no more than 15,been a drive away from each other and.
Other than the occasional callduring the year, we never talk.
Yeah.
Why don't we get together,you know, and hang out.

(01:11:24):
No one makes the call, no one decides.
They like, well, no, we're busyor anything like that, but I
guarantee, but like, why, whycan't, why can't we do that?
But I guarantee if you did reachout and call, they wouldn't
say, they wouldn't say no.
No.
Like, so it, it got me, like, andthen that got me and it got me
kind of thinking like, why, whycan't we do this kind of stuff?
And, um, during the, like the, mypartner, you know, God bless her with like

(01:11:49):
that, she, uh, uh, I say I'm not reallyreligious, but I'm saying God bless her.
Yeah.
Because, uh, she, she's notoblivious or anything like that.
She knew I was going through a toughtime and like that, but she didn't
quite know how, how to deal with it.
And something that like, that shakesme into my core today is that she
told me that, uh, lemme turn up alittle bit here, but she told me.

(01:12:11):
Yeah, I know you're going througha hard time and every time you
would go back in the house afterwe went out to the cart mm-hmm.
And were in there for a couple minutes,I was, I was terrified I'd walk in
and you would be no longer with us.
Yep.
I wasn't suicidal at thispoint, at this time around.
I can say that for a fact.
I, I wasn't, I wasn't gonna kill myself.

(01:12:32):
I was just going through a deepdepression and it got me, and I started,
you know, researching a bit more.
And it's like, well, I, I ran into oneof the, my buddies that said that one
of the trade shows, 'cause he was alsothere and we were just kind of talking
and I said, well, you know, how you doing?
He's like, oh, I'm good.
You know, like the girls and this,and Karen's like this and my friends.
I'm like, cool, but howare, how are you doing man?
Right.

(01:12:52):
I'm fine.
Cool.
How are you doing?
Mm-hmm.
And he is like,
um, kind of kinda lonely, man.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Let's hang out, man.
I, so am I. Let's go, let'sgo to the range someday.
Yeah,
right.
I'm a member at like threedifferent ranges or like that.

(01:13:14):
Let's go shooting.
We used to do it a allthe time in the army.
Why can't we do it now?
Or like that, right.
You got some cool
guns too.
Yeah, well, well there'sthat too, like that.
But yeah, the guns, I can still use onthe range as well, but I'm like, why can't
we, why can't, why can't we do this now?
Just 'cause we have kids doesn't meanwe can't hang out anymore like that.
We can't hang, let's go hang out together.
And it just got me kind of thinking.

(01:13:36):
There's lots of different groupsout there, and this is, I wanna
preface this by saying this is not,you know, at any point, bringing
down mothers, women, our wives, ourpartners, and like that they need
support just as much as anyone else's.
But
you know, like you hear, I, you, you seelike, there's lots of groups out there,
uh, mommies and me and uh, mommy and megroups and stuff like that, and where

(01:13:59):
they all get together and they hangout with their kids, but, and I see.
I, I've taken my kid to gymnastics.
I've taken to swimming lessons.
There's more and more fathers are moreand more involved in their child's
lives than they ever have been before.
Oh yeah.
Historically, huge.
A generation.
But there's no father and me hangouts,father, toddler hangouts are like that.
Like we don't get together and do that.

(01:14:19):
We take our kids to the thing, we areinvolved in their lives or like that.
And then when everything goes tosleep, we're kind of left our own
devices and everyone's gonna say,Hey, he, he's being quiet downstairs.
He's relaxing, he is gonna go work,or, or he is gonna go out and, you
know, mow the lawn or work out or workon his car, or something like that.
Like the, the typical stereotypical, youknow, bullshit, whatever it is like that.

(01:14:39):
But why can't we, you know, formsupport groups for ourselves as, as
men, and acknowledge the fact thatbeing a father is a, despite all the
great things, it is being a father anda partner, it is lonely as hell, man.
It really can be.
Yeah.
Well
it depends on how it's approached.

(01:15:00):
Yep.
Um, I think it's lonely quite oftenbecause we make it lonely for ourselves.
We do.
Absolutely.
Some people don't have a relationship witha partner that is their force multiplier.
Yeah.
Uh, I think putting that timein ahead of time to find a force
multiplier that you can work withat both of you guys together Yeah.

(01:15:24):
Is gonna be ma massive.
A lot of people, theydon't, they don't have that.
When I, uh, uh, look at differentfriend groups, I've, I've made a few
notes as you're talking through here.
Yeah.
And
I just wanna say like, you know, 'causeagain, I know my wife's gonna listen
to this and Annie, like, she is my,my solid rock with like that real,
like, we, she's the the best person.
I want.
The fact that she can identify

(01:15:44):
these things and.
It, it doesn't make it any less of athing that sometimes I just feel like I'm
by myself in certain things like that.
And it's not, nothing that she hasdone or not done has caused that.
It's just Well, we do it to ourselves.
Yeah, we do as this man, we a hundred
percent.
And, uh, and there's, okay, so haveyou seen, I think it was Saturday Night

(01:16:04):
Live, they did this skit and there's agroup of guys and they're all hanging
out together and there's one of the guys,he is like, well, I guess I gotta go.
And they all call, start callinghim names and throwing stuff at him.
Yeah, yeah.
You're the worst and blah, blah, blah.
And like, just really get mad.
And the second the guy leaves,they're like, man, I love that guy.
Yeah.
He, he's my reason for living.
I, and, and they just ask.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They do the same thing again.

(01:16:25):
Group of women.
And this woman waslike, oh, I gotta leave.
And they're like, oh, I'm sosoon, we don't wanna see you go.
The second she's outthe door, they're like.
Okay.
Now that she's gone, canwe really talk about that?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And but you know, it's funnybecause it's, it's true.
There, there are these little boundariesin these, uh, games that we play.
And as guys, sometimes people think thatwhat's happening when everyone's making

(01:16:47):
fun of 'em or calling names or sayingthese things isn't because they, they
think, well, maybe that's how they feel.
Yeah.
Because they don't see what'shappening behind closed doors.
Yeah.
Like, I mean, there's a, there'sa, uh, I remember there was a class
I thing where it's, uh, like a, a,a guy, a guy who was an army guy's
gonna go visit his buddy, his buddy inthe hospital who was hurt, you know,
in the line of duty or like that.
And he walks in, what's up, dipshit?

(01:17:09):
You know?
Yeah.
You can't believe you got outtathat one or like that, you know,
you really had to blah, blah, blah.
Just ripping on each other.
Yeah.
And then like, and the nurse walks in.
Who is that?
Oh, it's my best friend.
Yeah.
And it's, it's true.
But we are.
Harsher on each other.
Like, 'cause that's just like, that's,I guess that's what we, who we are.
Like it's just, it is.
And a lot of people didn't havea proper role model growing up.

(01:17:30):
No.
As to how to, how to interact properly.
Yeah.
And so, uh, when you, andI'm just kind of Yeah.
Putting a few notes.
'cause I think you raisedsome really good things.
So when we talk about social media andyou know, how, how you can start feeding
into all of these things, there is thatother side and it's all about perspective.
The second that perspectiveshift happens mm-hmm.

(01:17:51):
Um, things get better, right?
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
And, and that's where talk docs comein because they can say, well, yeah,
you're looking at it like this.
Like a friend of mine, he is,uh, his father recently passed
away and he's finding that he'sgetting frustrated at work.
He holds a, uh, high.
Level job in a leadershipposition with the government.
And anyways, he is like, I don't havetime for this, and my family don't have

(01:18:12):
time for, and I'm getting frustrated.
And the doc's like, well, do you thinkmaybe this is how you process grief?
Oh, didn't see it like that.
Yeah.
All of a sudden.
Okay, fair enough.
Different way of looking at it.
Same way with your wife.
I wasn't sure you'd be withus when you went out to the
vehicle and you came back again.
You probably didn't realizeat that time that that's what

(01:18:34):
was going through her head.
And the, so Viktor Frankl, man, searcher,meaning writes a book and he had a, uh,
a guy come in and he's like, you know,my wife died and it's an older fellow.
And he says, I, I have noreason for living anymore.
And, and, uh, Victor Father, modernlogo therapy says, uh, okay, well

(01:18:54):
what would've happened if your wife.
If you died first, would you liketo see your wife take her life?
Well, no.
Like, would you like to see her be happy?
Yeah.
Well, maybe you spared her thisgrief that you're going through.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And it's about fi aboutfinding meaning in life.
Yeah.
Through, through adversity.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And sometimes it's, man, I don't want mywife or my loved ones to feel that way.

(01:19:16):
Okay, maybe I gotta startaddressing how I'm looking at this.
Does that mean I change my diet?
Or I talk to someone or I reach out,or we have this conversation because,
um, now I've got a little bit morepurpose in a way to approach it.
So I, I thought that was aninteresting thing just to,
yeah.
And, and you said something earlier isthat, you know, we don't, we necessarily.

(01:19:37):
Our generation over hasn't had necessarilythat role model to teach us like,
it's okay to be vulnerable as a man.
Right.
That in fact, you should be, I,I was never, I can honestly tell
you I was never taught that.
No.
Because if you showedany emotion, you're weak.
You're weak.
That's right.
Like, what are you, uh, like what areyou girl, I know what you're gonna say.
You, you did, you want me to go getyou a dress for your, you know, like,

(01:19:59):
like, like, like that's the way wewere kind of raised with like that.
And now that I have, you know,my son and stuff like that, it's
how do you, you know, now kindaabout, okay, how do I break that?
How do you show healthy emotion?
Yeah.
How do you
show working through things in away that they can then emulate?
Yeah.
Because you've never had that emulated
for you.
Yeah.
And you know, I'm, I'm thinking,okay, like I have to be able to,

(01:20:20):
you have to be able to show emotion.
I have to be able to show vulnerability,especially to your, you know, to, like
I was always told, the only personyou ever become vulnerable to is your
partner, your wife, and even then.
Do it cautiously.
Yeah.
Right.
You don't want to use against yet.
Yeah.
And so you gotta be able toshow your, you know, your, our,
you know, our, our children.
It's okay to be vulnerable.
It's also okay to be strong.

(01:20:42):
And some of the, some of thestrongest thing you ever do is to be
vulnerable to someone with like that.
Uh, but also, you know, with the, yousee, I see it on, you know, with all
this whole thing with, again, socialmedia going back to like, how do we get
'em also into loving the outdoors again?
Hmm.
Loving the, you know, going out, loving,you know, being camp, you know, go
camping, go like, get away from yourphones and start living life again or

(01:21:04):
like that, um, in that environment.
And what can we learn from, youknow, being in nature and stuff
like that, that is healthy notonly for your mental health, but
also for your own physical health.
And, uh, I, I take that back towhat I was saying with my buddy.
Like, Hey, let's go, let's,let's go to the range some day.
Uh, you know, there is a mentalhealth aspect that's positive well,

(01:21:25):
to hunting, being outdoors, andthe whole firearms committee, which
is never addressed, is that thisactually can be a positive thing.
It actually, uh, for many people it canbe a source of bonding for some of us or
like that, that, have you heard of the
Men's Shed Society in Australia?
No.
Okay.
So, uh, it started in Australia.
I think it's in a numberof other countries now.

(01:21:46):
It's probably in North America.
But, um, some bright individuals overthere looked at it and said, women will
talk about their problems face to face.
They'll sit down and sayhe's, here's what's going on.
Men, they don't do that.
They don't feel comfortable doingthat, but they will talk shoulder
to shoulder, and so you're atthe range, shoulder to shoulder.

(01:22:08):
The Men's Shed Society was.
Okay, we've got a lawnmower.
We have to rebuild.
Hey, you've got a belt grinder, you'vegot a socket set, you've got this.
Let's do this project.
And the men get togetherand they work on a project.
They're not there to talkabout their problems.
They're not there to vent about things.
It's not a therapy session, but youknow what men are gonna end up doing?

(01:22:29):
Little things will come up.
Oh, you know, I had arough time the other day.
My kid was doing this.
I didn't know how to, someone elsesays, oh yeah, I had the same thing.
Right.
Yeah.
And it's, it goes back to thatHarvard study, 80 years followed,
uh, people from all different, uh,ethnicities, backgrounds, religions,
genders, all the rest for 80years, longest study on happiness.

(01:22:52):
And the number one predictor ofhappiness that they found was
having strong social connections.
Yeah.
And that's one of the firstthings that starts to go out the.
Door when depression kicks in.
Yep.
Because mm-hmm.
Oh yeah.
You'll self isolate.
Yep.
You have kids.
Okay.
My, my priority's ahundred percent my kid.
And I, and I did that.

(01:23:12):
I went and I looked and I said,okay, if I'm gonna have kids, I
made this decision ahead of time.
My life's over and I'm gonnagive everything I have to my kid.
And it took me a long time to realizethat's not the proper approach.
Yeah.
Because if I'm not looking after myselfproperly, I'm not given a hundred percent.
Well, it's
like if, if I there, you know, there wasa, and to this day to a point, I still

(01:23:33):
do if I decide, hey, I know I usually Itake him to gymnastics on Saturday morning
or like that, but I really want to goand visit a buddy who is in town for.
You know, the weekend.
Mm.
Can I go do, and I, so I askedmy wife, can I go do that?
Like, just outta courtesy, I'm gonna, I'mnot gonna be like, I'm gonna go do this.
It's your problem now.
Like, no, you're a team, butwe're a team, so can I go do that?
And she's like, absolutely.

(01:23:53):
And then I immediately feel guiltybecause I should be taking my son.
Like why, how dare I decide toput myself first or like that?
Mm-hmm.
Like, I should be, I should behere for my son or like that.
And he doesn't understandwhy, why Even right now my,
he's back, I'm here for work.
Hmm.
I had no, there was no choice.
I had to come here for work or like that.
I had to come up to bcIt was a trade show.

(01:24:15):
We knew about it months in advance orlike that we knew this was happening.
We knew this was happening last year.
'cause we, we bought our booth spacelast year when it was in Halifax.
Yeah.
For the Victoria show.
And on my, on the flight outhere, I felt guilty leaving.
Be even though, because why?
Why did I feel that way?
Because I'm not my prioritizingmy son at that point.
I'm, I prioritizing my wife.
I am, I'm prioritizing my job.

(01:24:37):
But when you start looking at the realityof it, when you take that different
perspective, it's like, what kind ofperson would I be if I didn't leave home?
If all I'm doing is spending that time?
Yeah.
Yeah.
My kid would be sick of me.
I wouldn't be my best self.
I need to be able to havethese different things.
And that took me a while
to figure out
too.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know,
so I'm, and, and another thing like,you know, that, uh, I learned from my

(01:25:00):
previous, you know, journeys through this,uh, through, uh, PTSD and depression, is
that another thing that I think needs tobe, you know, definitely addressed and
understood, especially, you know, amongstthe, the, this community like that is
that it's okay to sometimes be depressed.
Yeah.
It's nor it's, it's normal.

(01:25:21):
It's a part of it.
It's part of it.
Yeah.
You're gonna be depressed.
Um, it's okay.
Yeah.
Don't think of it as thatI've, I'm, I failed again.
Or like that like, 'cause I, that, thatdefinitely was going through my head
is that how could I, you know, I, I'veworked so hard for a decade to get out
of this PTSD, you know, thing like that.
And now I'm here again.
And like that, how, even knowing fullwell it's chronic, it doesn't go away.

(01:25:44):
It may wear its ugly head.
This is all this, all this, Iall knew this ahead of time.
Mm. And yet it still felt like a failurewhen I was going through like the
really, when it's starting to reallysink down deep into it like that.
And it had to pull myselfback out of it again.
But understand that, no, it's, it's.
This is fine.
You're gonna be depressedevery once in a while.
Like that.
It's,
well, if you look at a physicalinjury, we didn't choose, most

(01:26:05):
people don't choose to break an arm.
Most people don't choose to to be injured.
But you realize, man, that sucked.
Yeah.
Okay, well, I guess I'm not gonna beable to use that arm for a little bit.
I'm gonna modify how I work for the nextlittle bit, and in a certain amount of
time it's gonna be better and I shouldhave a hundred percent functionality
back by this time, or X percentfunctionality back by whatever time.

(01:26:27):
There's a roadmap in place and peopleunderstand that and they appreciate
it and they expect it, but with theemotional, psychological type things,
there isn't any visible indicator.
And I don't know why people don'ttake the same approach as, oh, okay.
Indicators are here.
I feel it.
I can see it.
Right.
It's not like I've got a big signout that everyone else can see it.

(01:26:48):
Yeah.
Maybe, maybe not.
Like, depending on where someone'sat, but there's a process here.
I'm gonna set my tent up, I'mgonna get find some shelter.
I'm going to take these, I'm gonnacook up some food and make myself Yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
And you know what's gonnahappen in a little bit.
I'm gonna start feeling betterand the sun's gonna come out.
Yeah.
I, I can, well, sure.
I can sell, tell you thatfrom personal experience.

(01:27:09):
Okay.
You just said you break your arm.
Yeah.
You know what?
That, you know what?
That, that cast does everything like that.
That's a cool story.
Mm-hmm.
You're not doing so well in your head.
There's shame there.
Nobody wants to talk about that one.
No.
Right.
There's there's no cool story there.
Anything like that I can tellyou because I literally built
a, a, a, a slight career off it.

(01:27:30):
My story about how I got my PTSD and myjourney, my, the story of how I got it.
It's, it's, it's fun.
It's cool.
I mean, I deployed overseas.
I got to do really coolthings with the military.
That's cool.
Yeah.
The story, how I climb myself out of it.
That's a cool, that'sa fucking cool story.
And I'm happy to tellthat to people like that.
And people look at me, they're like,when they hear what, what I did to

(01:27:52):
get there, they're like, damn man.
Like that.
Like, not every, that's areally cool thing like that.
So it's, it's way cooler thanany bone I've ever broken.
And as you said, I've broken, I'vebroken my, a fair share of bones last.
I'm like, that's cooler thanany bones I've ever broken.
Like I tell the story about, well,I, I heal my body after, like
that, that was the easy part.
Mm. Healing my, my head after.

(01:28:14):
That took years and like thatand real struggle, but here's
what I did to do it like that.
How many times can you tell thisstory without it wearing a bit of
a rut into that emotional side?
It, you know what, it definitely does.
Um, and that's one of the reasons whyI kind of pulled back from doing some
of the veteran's advocacy because Irealized that I kind of felt like my
story was no longer becoming my story.

(01:28:34):
It just was becoming a sales pitch.
Uh, and then so now then, but now Ithen had to look at it again and saw,
well, now I get to reclaim my story.
It's no longer just a salespitch to try to, you know, raise
awareness and funding for veterans.
It can be, this is a story that shouldinspire other people who are potentially

(01:28:55):
at a, a pretty dark part of theirlives and like that, that it's, you
know, you can come out of it and youcould be the person telling this to
someone who finds it really inspiring.
So, so
are you able to spot it in others?
Are you finding it a little bitmore in tuned to see other people
or do you maybe projecting or.
I,
I, you know what I, I want tosay I, I, I, I think I can.

(01:29:16):
Mm. But, uh, when I lost my buddythis past year or anything like that,
that one, that one really shook me.
'cause looking back now, I'm like, damn.
The signs were there, but you didn't see.
Yeah.
What were the signs
he was, you know, it was just oneof those things, and I'm not gonna

(01:29:39):
mention names outta respect for thefamily, but it was one of those, uh,
every time I was in town, he, we didn'tlive in the same town as each other.
We were hours away.
But every that time was in, I was comingup, he was always like, Hey, let's you
know if you have time, let's hang out.
Not, Hey buddy, let's hang out.
Like the way he used to, like, let'sjust hang, let's go get some beers.
Let's have a great time with that day.
It was more, if you have time.
Kind of cau a little, a little cautiouslittle, you know, like, not if you

(01:30:02):
have time, kinda looking back it waslike, if you have time for me mm-hmm.
Was the full kind of sentence.
I, you know, you kind of couldinfer there, uh, just wasn't
quite as responsive to as, aswhat he used to be with like that.
Still fun.
Mm. Still like, I've known thisguy since day one in the Army.
We literally left on the bus together tobootcamp to, to our, our basic, um, and

(01:30:25):
right from day one, cracking jokes andjust, you know, a fun loving guy or like
that we, we didn't, we didn't deploy it.
He didn't, we didn't deploy together.
He never actually deployed, but uh, wefold each, you know, we were, we were, you
know, turn, you know, star skiing hutchfor most of the trade or like that, right.
It's like if he was gettingin trouble, I was pretty much
beside him for most of the time.
Right.
Um, and so just thisfun loving, great guy.

(01:30:48):
Always there to be a helpful hand,everybody, and looking back as just
kinda like, was he in the end there?
Was he more trying to be a helpfulhand as kind of a way to reach out,
just see if he could get some help and,uh, I just, I, I, I regret not, you
know, it's hard to live, it's hard.
You always say like, don'tlive, don't blame yourself,
and you don't do with regrets.

(01:31:09):
But it's, it's, I regret not maybetrying to be there a little more
form or trying to make more timein order to try to, you know, uh,
hang with them when I wasn't town.
And, uh, so it, it's, it's difficult.
Uh, the ones that you can see thesigns on are they're being obvious.

(01:31:31):
They're, they're, they're, it's really,it's unlikely they're gonna, they're at
a risk of actually taking their lives.
That's what I've seen.
That's what the ones that are.
They can hide it really well.
Mm-hmm.
Are the ones that you're gonna be ata funeral atd and you're like, and
you're asking, holy shit, this sucks.
You ever hear the poem Richard Corey?
No.
Uh, Edwin Arlington Robinson, Ithink was, uh, the guy's name.

(01:31:55):
He, I don't think he had a, uh, aname for the first, I think year
or two of his life until um, um,I guess his parents or someplace.
And they, they threw namesinto a, a hat and someone out
there at a hotel or something.
He said, your kid should have a name.
And anyways, he came up with Edwin,I guess a guy was from Arlington,

(01:32:15):
so that was his middle, middle name.
But he wrote a poem called Richard Corey.
And I said, um, I'll seeif I can remember it.
Um.
Whenever Richard Corey went to townwith people on the pavement, looked
at him, he was a gentleman from solda crown clean, favored and imper slim.
And he was always quietly iray andhe was always human when he talked,

(01:32:37):
but still he fluttered pulses.
When he said good morning and he glitteredwhen he walked and he was rich, asked
Richard that a king and admirably,schooled in every grace and fine.
We thought him to be everything tomake us wish we were in his place
and on We work and went withoutthe meat and cursed the bread.
And Richard Corey went calmsummers night, went home and

(01:32:57):
put a bullet through his head.
And that poem was alwayskind of stuck with me.
And it's the Richard Coreysthat you have to Yeah.
Watch out for.
Yeah.
As I said, uh, 10% of the population,no matter how little the injury is.

(01:33:18):
You can't save them.
It's the 10 and 10%.
No matter how horrific or traumatic
they're gonna be better in spite of it.
They're, they're,
they're just gonna be smiling throughit and they're, they're gonna survive
anything that throws their way.
Mm. It's that 80% in between Mm.Uh, that we really have to strive
to really work to try to save.

(01:33:39):
Um, and I learned that is that, youknow, I, unfortunately, the, you know,
this is not the only two friends I'velost to two this, you know, to suicide.
Uh, this is not the only, you know.
There's been others before I hit mylast podcast or anything like that.
I've also lost another, anotherbuddy with the two like that.
And every one of 'em hurts.

(01:34:00):
Mm-hmm.
You know, you question, you know, I, I'velearned not to question it anymore of
like, what, what could I have done to fixit or anything like that, because probably
nothing realistically, if they reallywanted to do it, they're gonna do it.
It's not for you to fix.
No.
There's nothing that you can fix.
You can't take an alcoholicand make them sober.
No, you're right.
You can't take a drug addict, but youcan't take a depressed person and ta-da.
Yeah.
It made you laugh.
Now you're better.
Right.
But you definitely, I thinkit's this as a group as a whole.

(01:34:23):
Mm-hmm.
As, as men, we need to do better than,and you hear this multiple podcasts.
You hear this and I, I listen topodcasts all the time where they're
like, men need to be better.
Yeah.
What does better look
like?
What does better look like?
What does, what does better mean?
Anything like that?
Do we be better to each other?
No, because you know what I, I, Iwhat we were talking earlier about,
uh oh, like, you know what's up?

(01:34:43):
You know, you know, youcall each other names.
You like that, that.
Does have a place, there is somesort of bonding there like that.
I think that actually that's important.
'cause it kind of is part of our, ourIf it's done, done in good spirit.
Yeah.
Right.
Uh, it does actually have a placeand it makes you kind of feel a
little comradery there like that.
Mm-hmm.
You know, I, I still call, you know, guysI've seen the years and in the Army I
see him again and I'm like, what's up?

(01:35:04):
You know, like, yeah.
Dumb ass.
You dumb ass.
Or remember that time you, youknow, you did this or like that.
You share funny storiesand stuff like that.
Right.
There is value to that.
But, um, so recently, uh, I, I, uh,this, this guy, I know he went up on
a camping trip, boys, boys weekend.

(01:35:25):
What do you think is gonna happen ona boys' weekend, on a camping trip?
Shenanigans drinking.
Sure.
Maybe some golfing.
Sure.
Hopefully no one, you know,you know, gets burned by a
firecracker or something like that.
But Shena shenanigans is a good way.
Like, uh, Tom Foolery had shenanigans.
Yeah.
And all of this washappening or like that.
And, uh, I, I, I took my son to go,uh, meet some of his family members

(01:35:50):
and like that, and they were atlike this house at a pool party.
And then one of, one of the, the, theguy that I know, or like that, this
friend of mine, he was married toone of the, the girls and like that.
So it was me and my son and, uh, anda and a bunch of, and my wife and
some of her cousins are like that.
And all of them were girls and they'reall, I was doing the barbecuing.
Mm-hmm.
Because they asked me, I was like, okay.
And then we were all having dinner andone of the girls said, yeah, he is up

(01:36:14):
there, he is having a, you know, a,a, a great cabin weekend or like that.
He's hanging out with his,with his brother, with his,
with his, with his boys.
They're like, oh, I wonder what's gonnabe happening up there, blah, blah.
And then she's like, yeah.
And they're, they're all gonna sitaround a, the campfire and tell each
other what they love about each other.
Hmm.
And I was like, oh man, that'd be amazing.
No kidding.
That'd be, and all the, allthe, the women at the table were

(01:36:35):
just like, yeah, they're shot.
Yeah.
Because, and I, and what took meback was, why are they shocked?
Because they're, we, theyalso know what this isn't.
This is not manly behavior according towhat we've been led to be grown up and
believe or like that meanwhile, that thatwas probably more therapeutic for anyone.

(01:36:57):
Those, if one of those guys was goingthrough something at that, that moment
or like that probably would've beenmore therapeutic and more helpful.
Mm-hmm.
But,
and everyone's like, myGod, that's so progressive.
And I'm like, that itshouldn't be progressive.
It should be the norm.
I'm
wondering when it's stopping beingthe norm because I, you know, I
remember, uh, podcast I did with EBLevo, ex-head of BC's, ERT mm-hmm.

(01:37:22):
For, um, division and, uh, blackBelt, jiujitsu, martial artist, super
Fit, uh, Mr. Tactical, all the rest.
And, uh, he is done his researchon, uh, different cultures and the
warrior culture, and he's a bigadvocate for, uh, having a strong
heart and strong mind and Yep.

(01:37:44):
Uh, to accompany everything.
And, um, you know, you, for a longtime, you look at like, let's say
Canadian military, if you're strong,that means you, you're physically
strong and you can keep pushing.
Yeah.
And then you don't complain.
Right.
And, and I was like, um, you know, I,I gotta wonder, uh, why people haven't.
Been incorporating the, uh, thepsychological and the emotional

(01:38:06):
and the spiritual side to all this.
And he says, you have to ask yourselfthe question why they stopped, because
that used to be a regular part of howsociety worked, and your warriors were
gonna go out and they're gonna fight.
But they also had, uh, faith,spirituality, uh, like they, they
had these other pillars to beable to help support resilience.

(01:38:26):
And we, I guess in humanity gotreally, or at least in North America,
it got really lopsided on one sideof what we considered to be strength.
And I see that changing.
And it's an asset change.
Yeah.
It's changing because of these statistics.
It's changing becauseit's, it's untenable.
It doesn't sustain itselfover the long term.

(01:38:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I, I, and I agree with you is that,you know, when I, when I first did, when
I joined the Army, it was very much akind of like, as you said, strength was.
You're physically strong, you can ruckmarks forever, everything like that.
You can, you can just take it and comeout the other side or something like that.
Yep.
You, but nothing was a, you know, andthen again, and if it wasn't, you'd

(01:39:09):
be called all sorts of differentnames and like, that you're weak.
You're, you know, you're, you're, you'renot fit to be, you know, in the, in, in,
in, you know, like things like, you'renot fit to be nothing in the army.
You're not fit to, you know, be, you know,like, uh, in this, wearing this uniform,
in this service and stuff like that.
And there, there's atime and place for that.
Sure.
Mm-hmm.
But, but those are
typically tests.
Those aren't tests.

(01:39:29):
Right.
But not everybody knows it's a test.
Nobody knows why they do it.
They see other people doit and they buy into it.
Yeah.
And some people take it too far.
Yeah.
But there, those are typically atest to see, are you gonna belong?
Yeah.
Are are you gonna be besideus when we really need it?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, that's it.
Right.
But, but a hu you know, I, I would say thestrongest thing I've ever done is admit

(01:39:50):
that I got a problem and I need help.
Mm-hmm.
And no one, you know, no one I was,that I knew me at the time that I
was aware of judged me for, for that.
And so that's the, you know, that'ssomething we, we definitely need to still
keep stressing to the, the population.
And I, I'm focusing on men here.
I think that because it's my ownexperience, I, I can't speak to what

(01:40:11):
a woman feels like or what she feelsduring depression or like that.
I'm sure it's not that dissimilar.
They need help just asmuch as we do or like that.
But, um, there's a reason why eight outof 10 suicides are committed by men.
And typically men's suicide attemptshave a greater level of finality Yeah.
Than women's suicide

(01:40:32):
attempt.
Yeah.
So like, and as a, you know, we just, weneed, we need to do better as a society.
And I'm trying to think, youknow, I'm trying to think of,
okay, how can me and my role.
As manager of defense law enforcement,uh, and as, as a manager, and as you
say, like a bit of a industry leaderwithin the firearms committee mm-hmm.
How can we incorporate this intosomehow helping that in a responsible,

(01:40:57):
safe, and effective manner?
And we've heard of, you know,there's groups out there that
want to run hunting, you know, paybasically guided hunting trips for
veterans with PTSD veteran hunters.
Yeah.
Veteran hunters, Todd, he, um, there'salways that little kind of like,
unfortunately that Chris, Kyle mm-hmm.
Incident that like, sure, ifwe do this, that could happen.

(01:41:19):
Well, you, you go to any rangethat could happen or like that.
So I, I get it As a, as a, as anorganization, especially as a charity
that wants to support something likethat, they have to be very, very
careful about the potential liabilitylike that, about something about.
But I can honestly say that, that, thata case of that is so few and far between.
Mm-hmm.
Um, but it's.

(01:41:41):
Veteran hunters vent.
Like also like how can we get conservationgroups maybe involved or like that,
how could we get potentially even thegovernment, like Park Parks Canada
organization or like that involved insupporting not just veterans and first
responders, but now men as a whole.
Mm. Running,
we were talking like, uh,my, my son's at summer camp.
My son goes to, why can't we have adultsummer camps for, for, for, for men for

(01:42:05):
like, you know, a week where we go awayto a summer camp just to be a kid again.
Everyth like that.
Mm-hmm.
That'd be amazing.
That'd be fun.
Yeah.
Right.
Like
you're on the zip line again.
When I was, uh, when I was, you know, whenI was 14 years old or like that, there's
a, uh, place in, in Ontario up in Al Parkcalled SOES or Kearney, and you go there,

(01:42:26):
you go there for the summer and I mean,it's a full like four, five week program
or like that, but you go there and you'vebeen going there for a couple years as,
as you know, as a kid or like that, butmy final year there when I was 14, it was.
Two weeks at the thing learning,you know, learning portaging
swimming and something like that.
And then you did a two weekportage through Algonquin Park.
Cool.

(01:42:47):
Right.
One of the, one of the mostmemorable experiences of my life,
or like that, uh, I mean, I've hadsome pretty good ones like that.
Yeah.
But, you know, waking up everymorning going canoeing and like that.
So Cool.
And, uh, oh, and you know, ithelped the fact that I was 14.
I got my very first kiss thereon my birthday of all things,
like, it's a birthday present.
Oh yeah.
It was like, it was, it wasgreat Or like that, but, uh,

(01:43:08):
dumb that down to a little bit.
Why can't we do that now?
Or like that, like we can, I, Imean, we can't because we have,
we're like, no, we have priorities.
Well, I, I need to look after my son.
I need to look after my wife.
I need to make sure the groceries are,I need to make sure the bills are paid.
I need to, but what's the harm, asyou said, if I take a week or even
a couple days and not have, andnot, not worry about that, I. If

(01:43:32):
you have a partner that's a rock.
Mm. My, you know, I, I traditionally wouldalways do all the meal prep and stuff
like that before I go away on a trip.
Mm-hmm.
I didn't do that this time around.
You know why?
Because I looked at my wife andI said, you have, you got this?
And she's like, 86.
She's like, hell yeah, I do.
Yeah.
And she, I know she does.
Mm-hmm.
I needed to, to understand, I need,I needed to accept the fact that

(01:43:55):
she can handle this without, fora couple days without me there.
It's amazing how capable we all are.
Yeah.
I mean, I need
to, I need to understand thatmy son will be okay if I'm not
gonna be there for a couple days.
And like that he has supports.
Now, not everyone is in that situation.
There is people out there thatdon't necessarily have that.
And I, and I get that it's not gonnabe a solution for everybody, but how

(01:44:17):
can we incorporate our community, notonly to try to better our community and
better speak for our community withinthe groups and at for advocacy, but
how can we also potentially be involvedin a greater hole in proving society?
Hmm.
We should, uh, talk offline herebecause I know a fellow who's, uh,

(01:44:38):
been looking at something very similarto what you're talking about here.
And I think, uh, um,I'll reach out to him.
Yeah.
And, uh, he's talking about a, um,some, something that was very successful
when I was, and I think they stillexist, but I'm not, I'm not sure.
But, uh, what were they called?
Uh, outdoors Canada orsomething like that.
But, uh, they, they ran, it started outhere actually in bc um, and it's what

(01:45:03):
I went through, but before I went on myclimbing Nepal, they did climbing tours.
It's like climbing tripsfor veterans with PTHD.
Okay.
Okay.
And they eventually branched out acrossCanada, so now they do, like on the East
Coast, they do like kayaking trips intothe Bay of Fundee and stuff like that.
Hmm.
And they do, uh, in Ontario theydo Portaging and you know, I go
in Alka Park or There you go.

(01:45:23):
Uh, you do hiking up inlike an Outward Bound.
Yeah.
Outward Bound.
That was it.
Outward Bound.
And, uh, but it was specificallyfo kind of focus more towards
veterans and first responders.
But why, why couldn't we expandthat to society as a whole?
Mm-hmm.
It honestly is benefit.
We know the benefits.
It obviously was super beneficial tothe veteran community that was suffering

(01:45:45):
from mental health, but I can tell youit's just a small segment of we know how
much there is maybe a, maybe a higher.
Cases of PTSD amongst at the timecoming out of Afghanistan amongst
the veteran community of with p with,with, with, uh, postex disorder.
Due to the nature ofwhat it, it was a combat.

(01:46:05):
It was 10 years.
PSD
is still trying to, no oneknows no really what PTSD is.
They got ideas about it.
They got, but even the last DSMhas changed how they approach.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And they, I think they added complexP-T-S-D-C-P-T-S-D and, but it doesn't even
have to be PTSD, just simpledepression or like that.
Right.
It can be, it can be debilitatingor anything like that.
It doesn't need, doesn'treally even need a label.
It doesn't need to have alabel and it doesn't need to be

(01:46:27):
caused by trauma necessarily.
Right.
So my second bout of my, my bout ofdepression or happened last year,
had nothing to do with trauma.
It is cumulative though.
It is.
No, it is, but like it, but it wasn't asingular point of trauma that caused that.
Right.
Whereas in before, when I hadmy p it was a PSD, my P was
caused by a singular incident.
In my case, it doesn't always have tohappen that way, but when I was going,

(01:46:51):
like the, my, my blast bit of depressionwas caused by many different factors
that were not that, or like that.
It was, it was a cumulative of, youknow, effort of kind of feeling I
was losing my who I was and who amI gonna be as a person or like that.
But you know, I think as a whole,like, you know, uh, how do we better
ourselves as firearm owners and asfirearms community, we have to be able

(01:47:13):
to become pillars of the community.
Well, maybe we put that question out tothe audience as well, and if people have
had similar experiences, if they've.
Had experiences that have ledto a positive outcome, that
things have worked well for them.
I'd love to hear about it in the comments.
Yeah, me too.
I would.
And if there are groups like the MensShe Society or like, uh, adult, uh,

(01:47:36):
uh, camp sort of thing that they'vefound value from that, uh, that
have worked well, I'd love to see.
Yeah, I mean, I think that wouldbe a really, and you know, as well,
if there's within the firearmscommunity, if there are actual
endeavors that are going forward.
So I know Todd Eey hasgot the veteran hunters.
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
He's helped with that of Alberta.
I think it's spread across Canada.

(01:47:57):
Um, but not everyone's gonna be a veteran.
No.
And not everyone's gonnabe a first responder.
No.
But it doesn't mean we can'thave these same conversations.
I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm a veteran.
Um, I know, I, but I'm also, thatwas, I'm, I'm a veteran, I'm a, you
know, a former soldier, but I'm alsonow a, I'm a spouse and a father.

(01:48:18):
Mm-hmm.
And the, and you know, and.
Someone who works as a, you know,a business manager like that.
Right.
That's who I, that's who I am now.
I don't It's what you do.
Yeah.
It's what I do.
But I don't, people think, well,you're a veteran or like that.
But that's, that's a, that's,that's, that's what you did.
That's what I did.
Yeah.
That doesn't mark who I amnow or anything like that.
And my current stresses and my currentlife, who I am now or like that.

(01:48:38):
But now does that make me, you know,does that mean I'm, you know, like I
now need something that's maybe a littlemore, you know, attuned to who I am.
But I know people who even served in themilitary, but because they didn't deploy,
they don't consider themselves a veteran.
So they don't apply for the programs.
Hmm.
Does there are no less of, theirservice was no less than mine.

(01:48:58):
Just 'cause I got, I was talkingto a guy just recently, uh, he was,
we run a, so a quick, quick plug.
Sure.
Uh, our so breaded defense technologies,we do run a, uh, individual officer.
Officer, I say that, but an Indi DigitalOfficer Discount purchase program.
Okay.
So if you were current or ex-servingmil Canadian farm forces of any

(01:49:19):
branch, uh, law enforcement or firstresponder, you can contact myself
or I have now have a new associate.
I finally have some help.
After nine years, uh, I have a associateunderneath me and you can purchase
firearms, optics, uh, anything with doneare supported brands at a discounted rate.
Fantastic.
And f We do this, we do thisas a thank you for what?

(01:49:40):
For your service, because no matter,but the Kia, that is your service.
Mm-hmm.
I just recently talked to a guy whogot back from Latvia, and when he found
out I was, 'cause I was just kind of,you know, ask, you know, asking how
it was, and I kind of, he was like,oh, it's a little weird coming back.
And I explained, yeah.
It was weird for me when I first came backfrom Afghanistan too, and instantly, once
he heard I had been to Afghanistan, heimmediately downplayed his tour as it Oh.

(01:50:02):
It was nothing.
It, like, it was nothingcompared to Afghanistan.
You guys really were it the shit.
And I'm like, first of all, you didn'tknow what it did in Afghanistan.
I could have been aclerk just working Sure.
In Kro, you know, or like, or you know,I could have been in Dubai or like that.
Yeah.
Like, like not to take anythingfrom what those people did.
'cause they did excellent jobs.
But you automatically go to,you serve, you, serve you
automatically go to the thing.
I was in combat every damn day,which was not, not the case.

(01:50:24):
Hm.
Dude, you left your home for sixmonths to serve your country.
To serve your countrywith a question mark.
Yep.
People, I've lost friends in trainingjust as much as I lost friends.
Right.
In, you know, in, in lifesituations, in operations overseas.
Um, hurt is hurt.
Dead is dead.
Yeah.
Doesn't matter how ithappened or like that.

(01:50:46):
And you came back and you servedyour country proudly like that.
You should never, I told 'em, you never,you should never diminish what you did.
Whether you earned a medal, whether youearned the CD or a sacrifice medal or
the, or the Victoria Cross or like that.
You never should diminish what you did.
'cause service.
Your service is your service.
Yeah.
So just be honest.
If, if.

(01:51:06):
If you think you could benefit from one ofthese programs, it doesn't matter whether
you consider yourself a veteran or not,like that, everyone else also side does.
Yeah.
It doesn't matter whether like, who,like, and, but unfortunately as well
there is gonna people within that, inthat group that is gonna maybe look down
on you because, 'cause it's happenedto me where, uh, I, you know, I, my
service was Afghanistan and I've hadguys who surf in Bosnia that for some

(01:51:28):
reason looked down on my service 'causeI wasn't in Bosnia earth like that.
Mm-hmm.
We're, again, we're whole, we're horribleto each other as ve as as veterans
we're horrible to each other as men.
Earth like that.
Sorry, I wasn't
fighting in grade school.
Yeah.
Sorry.
I was, yeah, I was eight years oldwhen that, when that war happened.
Sorry, I couldn't joinyou on that one like that.
Right.
But, uh, but the fact of the matteris, is that, you know, we never

(01:51:49):
should have to de to lower ourselvesor diminish our ourselves down
thinking that we we're not worthy of.
Being happy.
Mm-hmm.
And being healthy and being, being,being present and being just as much as
present in our lives as we are in others.
Something like that.
So, um, I, I, I can't think Ican say it any better than that.
So
I, I was just gonna say, Ireally like how you said that.

(01:52:10):
I,
so, I, I, I like your, I wannaput it out to the community.
Firearms community, outdoor community.
One, have you had success, you know,within your own, with your own mental
struggles, something like that.
And finding yourself out of it.
'cause I don't wanna be the only guywho's yelling from the rooftop or
like, here about my, you know, likeI've been there, I've done that.
I've, as you said, it does puta little dent in the thing.

(01:52:31):
I wanna know, have you been able to pullyourself out through positive means,
either within the firearms in, uh,committee or with it being outdoors?
And for those of them that are runningthose programs or those that'd be
interested in starting a program?
I wanna hear from you as well,because as you said, there's some
groups out there that do it, but.
You know, we need, we need morepeople willing to participate

(01:52:54):
and more people willing to, to,you know, facilitate as well.
The
question is out there.
Yeah.
Challenges out there.
Um, let's see what we come back with.
Love it.
David, thank you so much forcoming back much on the podcast.

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.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang

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Ep. 168: Brotherhood, Resilience, and Firearms: David MacDonald Returns

Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang