Ep. 155: Choosing Life: A Journey Back from the Edge

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Travis Bader (00:12):
Today's episode is a powerful conversation, exploring
profound success alongsidesignificant personal challenges,
delving deep into mental health andsensitive topics like self-harm.
You'll hear the journey of a remarkableindividual whose experiences offer
insights and hope highlightingthe strength it takes to rebuild

(00:33):
and reclaim life from adversity.
If you or someone you know is strugglingwith suicidal ideation or thoughts of
self harm, we've included links to helpfulresources in the episode description.
Being proactive is far better thanthe alternative before we dive in.
With the increasing importance ofsupporting Canadian businesses,

(00:55):
I'd like to acknowledge someoutstanding Canadian companies who
partner with Silver Corps outdoors.
These businesses generously provideexclusive discounts to Silver Corps
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Your support of these Canadian companiesnot only benefits you with exclusive
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(01:39):
Now, without further ado,let's get on with this podcast.
I'm joined today by someone who'slived a life of resilience and action.
Raised in Zimbabwe, he's tackledanti-poaching, law enforcement, close
protection and private investigation.
But beyond the high stakes worldhe operates in, his true passion is
mentoring others through adversity andhelping victims of domestic abuse reclaim

(02:01):
their strength through True haven.
Welcome to the Silver Courtpodcast, Heath Jackson.
Thank you very much, Travis.
Pleasure to be here.
I was, uh, intrigued.
You've done one podcast before.
You referenced that one to me.
I did a little bit of backgroundand, and checking on you and
seeing what you're all about.
You've led a pretty interesting life.
Yeah.
If you leave out all thebad stuff, it's not bad.

(02:23):
Oh, we don't have anybad stuff on our lives.
Come on.
Um, yeah, you know what that was, that'sone of the questions I would ask people.
I would say, uh, knowing whatyou know now, would you go
back and change anything?
Or what would you tell a 20-year-oldor 15-year-old you with all
the experience you have and I.
Time and again, everyone saysI wouldn't change a thing.

Heath Jackson (02:43):
Mm-hmm.

Because it's all of those bad things that teach us
those lessons that we need to know.
Yeah.
That we need to learn.
And if we'd shortcut those by anyway, we wouldn't be who we are now.
Yeah, that's true.
So in my reaching out, I'm justgonna read this little part.
An individual who's a friend ofmine, a friend of yours, getting
a little bit of background.

(03:04):
His last party says, uh, he justtells me about you and all the rest.
He says he's a good and solid CPoperator, as well as private investigator.
He loves the outdoors and spends alot of time in quote secret areas
of the bush, swimming in poolsand having outdoor barbecues.
He's also a bit of an adrenaline junkie,but nothing too extreme that I know about.

(03:24):
All in all, a goodbugger as we'd say in Zi.
That's right.
Yeah.
There you go.
Yeah.
That had to be Darren.
You got it.
That's Darren.
Yeah.
Um.
So you grew up in Zim?
I did.
You're born in, uh, in the US I was, okay.
What, when did you move over to Zimbabwe?

So, uh, I dunno how far back you want me to go.
Um, my grandparents made their way overto what was then Rhodesia, and I was
Zimbabwe back in the early forties.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, as missionaries and, um, set upmy, my grandfather, they went to a
really remote part of the country.
It was a, a long, tediousjourney to get there.

(04:04):
And, um, he built a, achurch and then a house.
Uh, and they, they sort of set up there.
They were inaccessible, um,six months outta the year.
And, you know, just there, therewas no infrastructure there, no
roads, no electricity, no, no sortof water supply, anything like that.
So very, very remote.

(04:25):
Um, my dad was born there.
I. And raised there.
He, he spoke Shauna, the, thelocal language, the indigenous
language, before he spoke English.
Mm. And grew up, um, on the backs ofthe African women in the village there.
Um, so he was, he was deeplyimmersed in that culture.

And that your father's bud, is it?

Yes.
Yeah.
Okay.
Uh, well, you have done a lotof background investigation.
A little bit.
I like to know who I'mtalking to and Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, yeah.
Buddy or bud.
Um, so he, my, my dad, uh, sothat's, that's one side of the story.
My mom's parents, um, for three orfour generations we're in South Africa.

(05:09):
Um, actually one of her, one of her,um, ancestors worked on Robin Island,
where Nelson Mandela was incarcerated.
Ah, in the lighthouse.

Interesting.

And, um.
Yeah, so she, she has adeep history there as well.
And so they, they met and got married.
Um, my dad was involved inthe, in the security forces
during the Rhodesian Bush war.
Mm. Uh, which was a terrorist war.
Um, went on for 20 odd years.
Yeah.
Started in, around, uh, actuallyI don't think it was as long as 20

(05:44):
years, but, you know, there weresort of rumblings that started way
back and then it came to a head.
Um, yeah, he was, he was in the BritishSouth Africa Police, which were the
Rhodesian security forces internally.
And, uh, my uncles, bothof my uncles were as well.
Uh, I can go into a littlemore detail on that.
It's pretty interesting.

(06:04):
But they, once, once the war hadsort of started to, to conclude,
um, my parents went over to theStates to attend Bible college.
And that's when I was born, so, okay.
I was born in South Carolinaand they, they finished their
studies and moved back to

Zimbabwe when I was two.
What impact did the RhodesianBush wars have on your father
that you noticed growing up?

Uh, in terms of, you know, things like negative impacts,
like PTSD, that kind of thing.
I, I never noticed anything.
Hmm.
Um, I noticed positive impacts thatI, I assume had something to do with
his experience doing the Bush war.
Uh, those, you know, things like beingcapable and competent in the bush,
capable and competent with firearms.

(06:51):
Um, handling himself in tough situations.
I, I assume a lot of that came from, fromhis experience in the security forces.

Isn't that interesting?
Now I left that question open-ended.
Mm-hmm.
So it could be answered either way, butisn't it interesting the perspective that
we have when we look back on challengingtimes in our lives and the difference
that it makes on just how we coped daytoday, that that little perspective,
it's either a negative or a positive,or maybe it's not quite so black and
white, but still look at the positive.

Yeah, I think a lot of people tend to, they tend to sort of
highlight the negative impacts of beinginvolved in conflict, uh, especially when
it comes to armed conflict situations in,in a military context or even policing.
Uh, but there are, I, I believe thereare a lot of positives that come
out of that, that are less obvious.

Hmm.
Yeah.
Why do you think it isthat people highlight it?
Like, I've got my theories?

Yeah.
Because that's what'swhat impacts you the most.
Hmm.
You know, people tend to, they tendto pick up on the negatives in their
life, uh, and, and tend to overlookthe fact that, hey, you know, when
my vehicle broke down, um, I madea plan and, and got it running
because I had experience with that.
Or, um, you know, when I, when Iencountered this difficult situation,

(08:10):
I, I took a plan of action approachand didn't allow it to bog me down
like it would someone who had noexperience in adverse circumstances.

Right.
Uh,

and that's because I was in the military, they, they tend
not to think about that, I think.

Right, right.
Um, so growing up, you spent alot of time in the bush yourself.
I did.
Yeah.
You're out hunting, fishingall my time in the bush.
All your time.
Tell me about it.
That sounds amazing.

Yeah.
My teacher, my, my mom was myteacher, uh, up until grade seven.
My dad built a little schoolhouse onour property, so we actually left the
home and went into the schoolhouseand mom would come in and teach us.
Uh, for the first half of the day,I, I had a, a pate gun hidden behind
the bookcase in the classroom.

(08:56):
And when she would leave to go anddo things, I'd be shooting things out
the window, um, crows or whatever.
Sure.
And, uh, yeah, that.
As soon as school was over,then it was party time.
Um, and I had little African friends,especially that lived next door to me.
Uh, his name was Tendai and his littlebrother, my peepee, um, believe it or not.

(09:20):
And they, I'd, I'd go over andlink up with them once I was
done my, my school obligations.
And we would take off barefootin a pair of shorts with my
22 from about age nine or 10.
Um, and we lived right onthe edge of a little town.
Uh, so our, our yard opened uponto just an expansive bush.

(09:42):
That was sort of no man's land.
And we would take off, uh, sometimesovernight and, and go hunting and,
you know, find our own food, pickour own food, make little shelters
to, to hang out in or sleep over in.
And yeah, that was, that was mychildhood playing in rivers, you know,
chasing, catching wild animals to keep.

(10:04):
Um,

so that's why Darren says you still secret,
secret places to go barbecue

and,

and swim.

I believe so.
Yeah.
I'm not, I'm not the biggestfan of most people, so I like,
I like finding the remote areas.
I have some secret gems, um, locally, youknow, kind of behind mission that I go to.
Like we in a mission.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Nice try.
Um, I could draw you a map,you know, there you go.
And swear you to secrecy.

(10:29):
There

you go.

Uh, or just take you and show you myself,
but yeah, this sounds good.
Yeah.
I like the ones that are less,less frequented, less inhabited.

And so you say, you know, not a big fan of people.
Yeah.
Is that because you're used tonot having many people around and
there's a certain comfort to that?
I don't

think so.
Um,
I don't, I wouldn't say I'm an introvert.
I'm not an extrovert either.
I'm somewhere in the middle.
Um,
I think it's just, I thinkpart of that is culture.
You know, I'm, there are a lot of thingsabout first world culture that, that
b me, um, the sense of entitlementand, um, a lack of regard for other

(11:10):
people, a lack of common decency.
I. And, uh, you know, of, of courseit doesn't apply to everyone in the
first world, but by and large, a lotof the, the sort of silly, silly, uh,
city dweller types that, that come outand try to find those, those spots that
I enjoy so much Mm. Tend to show upwith a big boombox and their pit bull

(11:32):
and their man purse, and I hate that.
And a bunch of weed and Yeah.
Um, and they, they like to make theirpresence very well known and it sort
of detracts from the whole purpose ofgetting away from things and out into
nature when you have that around you.

Yeah.
I've never understood that.
You go on a hike and you see somebodyelse and they're carrying a boom box.
Mm-hmm.
And they're blasting the music.
I mean, like, if you really wanna listento something, I mean, you can put on
a headset and put in your earbuds,whatever, but they want everybody else
to hear what they're listening to.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's just.
I, I don't get it.
No, I don't get it either, but, uh, but Idefinitely can appreciate the wanting to

(12:08):
get away and having a sense of freedom.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
The freedom that the ocean brings,the freedom that the hills bring,
the freedom that the more difficultplaces where the average Jill and
Joe won't be traveling to will.
And if you run into somebodyelse, hopefully they've gone
through that same difficulty Yeah.
Endeavor to get there and they mightshare a similar mindset or respect for it.

(12:32):
Yeah,

absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think, well, I had a, I hada thought there that was really
good and it's gone though.

I do that all the time.
This is why I got a penand paper in my notepad.
I gotta badly jot this stuff down.
I can't

write and, and listen at the same time though, that's the problem.
I'm, I'm too male to multitask.

I love it.
Yeah.
So, uh, you were involvedwith anti-poaching?
Yes.
I, um, recently, um.
Had a fellow reach out probablyreached out to you as well, saying
that you've got a friend who's lookingto getting into anti-poaching look.
Yeah.
Said,

yep.

You got it.
Yep.
Um, what, tell me about anti-poaching.

Um, well, my exposure to that was fairly limited.
It was right outta high school.
Um, so when I was in high school,so I mentioned my mom taught me
till grade seven, grade eight, um,which over in Zimbabwe is form one.
They followed the Britishsystem of education.
So form one through six, sixyears of high school, um, they

(13:31):
sent me off to boarding school.
Okay.
And, um, basically bootcamp,uh, with, with classes.
Okay.
So very regimented, verystructured, very, very formal.
Um, Anglican boardingschool, uh, very British.
And um, I. While I was in boardingschool, on one of the school

(13:52):
holidays, I attended a survival camp.
Mm. Uh, in a, in a spoton the border with Zambia.
Uh, the, the sort of premisewas they would teach you
bushcraft skills for a week.
So we, we went, there was, um, co-edcourse, they had a big sort of, uh,
sleeping accommodation, just an A-frame.

(14:14):
Okay.
Open at the bottom with aconcrete pad and a loft.
So the, the girls would sleep upstairs.
Mm-hmm.
The guys would sleepdown on the concrete pad.
And each morning we'd get up, we'dhave PT and so physical training?
Yep.
Uh, so we'd wake up at six, do our pt,and then go on a, on a bushcraft walk.

(14:35):
And they would teach us thingslike, um, making string from bark
or cordage as they call it, or trapbuilding or, um, tracking or any, any
other number of bushcraft exercises.
And the idea was during that weekto teach us the skills we would
need to use in a survival situation.

Mm.

And then you would go back at a separate time for
10 day survival, um, exercise.
So cool.
They would take us and dropus off in a group and, um.
And you'd have to use those skills thatyou learned while you were in training.
There was no instructor with youwhen you were on the survival phase.
Uh, so yeah, it wasreally, really interesting.

(15:15):
Um, you know, you, you learna lot about yourself, you
learn a lot about your peers.
Uh, the people that went in therevery popular came out not so popular.
Yeah.
And, uh, the quieter onescame out really popular.
Um, it was just really, reallyinteresting once you peel away all
the, the comforts of life and peopleare put in a survival situation

(15:36):
mentally, especially to see who has theresilience and composure to be able to
make it through an exercise like that.
So,

yeah.
So if I'm gonna go, gonna goout in a bit of a limb here.
Mm-hmm.
You're probably one of thequiet ones that went in there.
I was, yeah.
There you go.

I was, yeah.
I was never, I was neverone of the popular kids.
Mm. I was a, a scrawny little runtand, uh, bullied heavily for the
first four years or so of high school.
What does, what does that look like?
Uh, mostly, mostly verbal intimidation.
Hmm.
Um, yeah.
People, so for example, I was in a dormroom, uh, for quite a long stretch with,

(16:15):
there were eight of us in the dorm room.
Um, I was the only white kid in there.
Uh, as, as I recall, theremay have been one other one.
And, and every night after lightsout, they, they would taunt me, uh,
relentlessly, you know, and, uh, yeah,without going into too much detail mm-hmm.
Uh, they'd talk about things thatthey, that they wanted to do to my

(16:35):
mom and my sister or Mm. Um, it wasthis very sort of chest puffing,
um, a lot of racial tension mm-hmm.
Um, and resentment that, thatsort of sied and, and I would
just lie there and, and ignore it.
And after a while it takes a toll.

(16:55):
Um, sure.
Until eventually one day I, I stoodup for myself and, and the sort of.
The main antagonist, um, stoodup to him and, and that was
basically the end to the bullying.
And yeah, moved on from there andbecame someone that, you know, I found,
I found myself in a situation whereother guys that were struggling with,

(17:18):
with bullying would come to me and Iwas able to sort of step in, um, on
their behalf or talk to the bully orgive them advice, that kind of thing.
And, and that was really rewarding for me.
So I, I think it also, it kind ofcoincided with like, I had never
been involved with group sports,team sports other than playing soccer

(17:39):
with a, a soccer ball made outtaplastic bags all tied together.
That's awesome.
Um, in the dirt with runningaround trees, you know?
Yeah.
Like that, that was, that was my teamsport exposure until boarding school.
And that was when I, I. You know,it was mandatory to, to fill up your
afternoon sort of slots with sports.

(18:00):
Mm. You had to sign up.
So I had exposure to everythingfrom soccer, water polo, squash,
um, to rugby field, hockey, youknow, cricket, um, cross country.
We had a, it was a huge opportunity.
We had, um, a mountain biking team.
We had a triathlon team.
There was a climbing club.

(18:20):
Uh, there was a snake club, falconry club.
Sounds amazing.
Yeah, it was pretty awesome.
I mean, that's how my parentssold me on it to begin with.
They told me about allthe things I could try.
Yeah.
And, and I was really excited, butI, what I didn't know was how hard
it would be to be away from homethree weeks at a time and Yeah.
And, and stuck in a situation where Iwasn't just around other missionary kids

(18:44):
or African buddies I'd made friends with.
I was around all kinds of kids fromall different walks of life and.
Who had nothing in common with me.
Um, and I had to learnhow to relate to them.
That was a challenging exercise.
I didn't have a safe place to goto fall back on, or, you know,
I, I just had to figure it outfor myself, which was fantastic.

(19:06):
Um, but at the time was terrible.

Yeah, I can imagine.
Yeah.
Um, yeah, I, I never, it's funny howguys and girls will do it as well.
They push and they test each other.
But guys, it just seems like a constant.
Poke, poke, poke.
Let's see where their limits are.
Yeah.
Where their boundaries are.
And there's a game that's played.
Mm-hmm.
And some people can play it very well andother people like myself will just ignore

(19:28):
it 'cause I don't wanna play that game.
And then it comes to a pointwhere you gotta do something.
And the response is way over the top.
It shuts down and it's like, okay,now that's not the way to properly,
properly deal with these things.
Like it solve the issue now, but it didn'tsolve all the poking and then the hurt
feelings when the on the other side.

Yeah.
I mean, I, you know, I was, I wasa tender little guy back then.
I didn't have a thick skin at all.
Very sensitive.
Um, I took everything personally.
I had a lot to learn.
I was just a, I was a kid and Ithink a lot of, a lot of what I
took as, as a tax, um, was just, uh,the, the terms alluding, you know,

(20:09):
it was, um, it was just comradery.
It was just razzing each other,like, you know, teasing each other
because they, they, or teasing mebecause they liked me, you know?
Right.
They care

or they wanna like you.
Yeah, they wanted,

yeah.
And I didn't take it that way, youknow, to me it was, it was an attack.
So,

you know, so I've been vocal about the fact I've got a DHD, or, or at
least I've been diagnosed with A-D-H-D-I.
Still scratching my headwhether I got it or not.
I know, I know.
I was, uh, put on a very large dosageof Ritalin from grade three, and I took
myself off when I went in grade eight.
Some experimental run.
Talked about this before, but one ofthe things that coincides with A DHD is,

(20:48):
uh, what, what do they call rejectionsensitivity, dysmorphia or dysphoria.
Um, basically you take everythingpretty damn personal and you
think, well, they meant to do that.
And yeah.
And, and there's a sort of a disconnectin the head for the intentions behind
why somebody's doing something.
Hmm.
Interesting.
When I look at your background and likesextreme sport sports and Adrenaline junkie

(21:10):
and all the rest, like, oh, you know,there's, there's a lot of things here
that kind of tick the boxes for what they,uh, what they end up diagnosing me with.

Yeah.
Maybe, maybe.
Who knows?
I mean.
Growing up, there was no ADHD there, there, none of the
kids I knew had any allergies.
There were no, there was no, um, dyslexia.
There was no, like, none of that.
And I don't know if it's just because weall drank food or ate food straight out
of the ground or off the farm and drankmilk to the hose straight out of the cow.

(21:39):
Yeah.
Um, and so it wasn't, you know, wedidn't have problems with carcinogens
and stuff, or, or if it's becausethere was no diagnosis and, and
people did have those things.

That's a good question.
Yeah.
I'm not sure.
I think

maybe a bit of both.

I think it's a bit of both.
Yeah.
I think, I think people put attentionto something and the more they put that
attention to it, they start wearing it.
Right.
I am my anxiety.
Mm-hmm.
Or my, my A DHD, well, no, it's not mine.
Right.
It's just something that.
I'll, I'll deal with and I'llwork with, and I still question
whether I have it or not.
'cause there's plenty of times when Idon't exhibit any of those symptoms.

(22:14):
When I'm out in the wild, whenI'm in an environment that matches

mm-hmm.

My personality type.
And

yeah.
I think a lot of people make themistake of taking a diagnosis as
a life sentence and they sort ofsurrender to the fact that, well,
I have this and that excuses thatbehavior so I don't have to work on it.
Um, that really bothers me.
Mm. Um, people that sort of give intothings like anxiety, um, or depression.
Um, I mean, I'm not a psychologist.

(22:40):
I, you know, I'm just,this is just my opinion.
Based on what I've been through, whichwe'll probably get to at some point.
But, you know, I've been diagnosedwith some, some of those things
and, and I'm not anymore.
Um, so it's not a life sentence,it is something you can work on.
You, you are able tochange as an individual.
People have the, the ability to takethe reins of their mind and, and channel

(23:02):
their thoughts and control their thoughtsinstead of being dictated to by them.

But that's not the popular opinion.
No.
The popular opinion is, man, I'm notfitting in with what's going on around me.
There must be something wrong with me.
Mm-hmm.
And that's, you know, the oldanalogy of trying to judge a fish
by its ability to climb a tree.
Right?
It's always gonna look badcompared to the monkey, right?
Yeah.
But, but that monkey in thewater and the fish excels, right.

(23:27):
Um, I think the popular opinion is people.
Desperately want to fit in.
And we see that time and time again.
And as much as people say theydon't, you look at covid, right?
People talking in hushed tones.
If they had a contrary opinionbecause they didn't want to be
ostracized by the rest of the group.
And some people, I, I didn't speak that,that hushed Well, it's, it's, it's funny

(23:52):
how, uh, social of an animal we are.
Mm-hmm.
And they say, well, I want to fit in.
I want to, I'm, I'm not studying right.
Or I'm not retaining information,or I seem like I'm hyper
proactive, or whatever it might be.
Doc, what can we do?
And our system says, well, I don't know.
I think there's a pill for that.

(24:12):
Right.
I, I think there's somethingwe can give you, we can

give you a label and a prescription.

That's it.

Yeah.

We'll diagnose you.
Okay.
Well, I, I, I personally don'tthink these diagnoses are
really worth a heck of a lot.
Mm-hmm.
Um.
When you were talkingabout PTSD earlier, right?
You look at cultures of warriorclasses that come back and they're
lauded as heroes for going towar and protecting the others.
And, and they can live their lifeproud and they could have seen the

(24:42):
same atrocities and hardships that a,uh, another society welcomes them back
and says, you guys are baby killers.
How could you do it?
Mm-hmm.
We shouldn't have goneto war to begin with.
And this, the social, the perspective thatindividuals have of themselves, I think
greatly influences how their body respondsand how their mind responds to it.

(25:05):
Yeah.
Yeah,

I

agree.

So, I mean, to get back to the anti-poaching piece, um, that,
that course that I went on, they, theysort of extended an invite for me to
come back after high school and spendsome time there with them if I wanted to.
So that's what I did.
Mm-hmm.
And, um, that's when I had myexposure to, to the anti-poaching.
Uh, so they basically were given a,a, a huge tract of land by national

(25:30):
parks to use for education purposes.
And the, the caveat sort of was thatthey would be responsible for the
anti-poaching, um, exercises in that area.
So the, the group, the course was run byex SLU scouts, which were, I'm sure you're
familiar, but very, very specialized unit.

(25:51):
Um, they actually recruitedfrom the SAS and other branches.
Um, these guys were, theymake the Navy Seals look like.
Uh, regular infantry.
They were, they, they were incredible.
They're good at what they do,very good at what they did, and,
and a wealth of knowledge to,to, to be able to learn from.
Mm. And awesome guys to bearound good, solid people.

(26:13):
So that was, you know, I, I wenton, uh, patrols with them, responded
with them to, to calls and, andthat kind of thing for, for a

period before

I

made my way over here.
So a friend from South Africa sittinghaving some sushi, he gets a text coming
in, makes kind of a bit of a face.
I'm like, what is it?
He's like, ah, ah, you don't wanna see it.
Okay.
Ah, here, I'll show it to you.
It's, there's somepoachers they caught Right.

(26:44):
And shows me a picture and theygot four of 'em on the, on the
fence and they're lined up dead.
Yep.
And they just kill 'em.
Yep.
Is that, was that theresponse that you were Um,

uh, so.
It may have been, it may havevaried from place to place.
Um, our sort of modus operandi wasyou give them an, an opportunity to
surrender and, and if, if they don't, thenmajority of the time they'd end up dead.
Not because, um, it was an, aninappropriate use of force, but because
if they weren't gonna surrender, theywould try to fight their way out.

(27:15):
Mm. Um, the majority of the time it wasa case of them running with their AK
over their shoulder firing as they ran.
Mm. That was sort of, they weren't, theyweren't the most efficient killing teams.
Um, they were funded by and largeby Chinese interests and would come
across the border to, to hunt for ivoryor, or rhino horn or in some cases,

(27:38):
um, they were subsistence poachers.
So coming over to get animals'cause they were none.
In the area they came from?
Uh, either way it was poaching.
Sure.
And, you know, the odd occasion they wouldlie in ambush and if, if they knew we
were, we were approaching or chasing them.
Um, but yeah, that, thatwas, that did happen a lot.

(28:00):
So

if they surrendered, what was their consequence?

They'd be turned over to the police and I don't know, honestly,
I don't know what happened from there.
Probably not a very pleasant experience.
No.
Yeah.

Okay.
Yeah.
Interesting.
You did that for, for a little while.

Yeah.
And then I had a scholarship, um,available to me for university and, uh.
The sort of natural landing place forme was, was bc My, my grandparents
had retired from Zimbabwe toAbbotsford, so came over here, um,
applied to university first, ofcourse, got accepted, came over here.

(28:35):
Um, lived in there unfinished basement.
Sort of made it my little man cave and,and attended university, uh, here in
BC and then started putting down roots.
There wasn't a whole lotto go back to in Zimbabwe.
Uh, not, not the best, mostfertile grounds for a young
guy starting out his life.
Um, there, there was a lot of, not,not, um, military unrest, but just

(29:01):
civil unrest than land repossession anda whole mess, um, going on back home.
So this, this provided more opportunities.
I was fortunate enough to haveCanadian citizenship through my
dad and US citizenship by birth, soit was a good place for me to be.

Right on the border, you can hop back and forth.
Yeah.
I guess work either side.

I did, yeah.
I went down to North Carolina at onepoint, worked as an animal trainer.
Um, and then later on down the roadafter, after all the, the nonsense I
went through, went down to Texas and, andwent to schooling for close protection.
So that was, you know,four or five month course.

So you worked as an animal trainer?
I did.
Was this like for themovies or is it for just,

they used the animals in movies and, uh, TV commercials.
Okay.
A lot of what they didwith them was educational.
So the, the place I worked was,uh, a natural science center.
So it was kind of like if youcombined Vancouver's Zoo, aquarium
and Science world into one place,they had, they had everything, uh,
all kinds of different sections.

(30:05):
Um.
That's cool.
And yeah, so I was, I was, my titlewas the junior curator supervisor,
so they had junior curators that wereseasonal that would come in and work,
um, basically looking after the animals.
Mm. And, and that role extendedbecause of my, my knowledge and
history with animals in Zimbabwe.
Um, you know, I didn't have any officialqualifications, but my boss saw an

(30:29):
opportunity there and they needed someoneto, to handle the animals, um, for people
that were filming and that kind of thing.
So that was a role I stepped into.

What kinda animals?

We had a cougar, uh, we had a couple black bears, a bobcat, um, and
then a bunch of smaller stuff, like theyhad raccoons and a sloth and, uh, possum,
um, some monkeys, that kind of thing.

That's pretty neat.
Yeah.
So working with these black bears inthe cougar, that would be kind of, uh,

yeah.
It was interesting.
They were, they were very tame.
Yeah.
You know, they, they hadbeen raised by people.
Um, so it was, it was an easysort of role to step into.
Fair enough.

Yeah.
Do you hunt in bc?

I have, um, I don't hunt very much anymore.
Mm. It's sort of lost its appeal forme, admittedly, maybe because it's a lot
more work here than it was back home.

It is a lot of work, isn't it?

It is a lot of work.
Uh, it takes a lot of time.
It's a large investment.

Yeah.

Um, yeah, I have, I have hunted quite a, quite a bit in the first,
uh, sort of 17 years that I was here.
Mm. And, and more, more recentlyis just, haven't hunted as much.
I've been, I've been pretty busy, so

I've, um.
Um, almost all of myhunting's been in bc mm-hmm.
However, I did recently do a huntin Molokai in Texas and in Sweden.
And the way that they hunt andthe, the axis to, to game it was
completely, completely different Yeah.

(31:59):
Than over here.
I was like, I I could be a very good bowhunter in these places over here, man.
I'm, I'm gonna be sticking tomy rifle for a bit more anyways
because, um, it is, it's harder.
It's, yeah.
I

think if, if you're a good hunter in BC you can be a
good hunter pretty much anywhere.

Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's interesting to know, especiallyso, um, and you of course hunting back in
Zimbabwe and you what game everywhere or,

yeah, I mean, so the hunting, the way the
hunting works here is kind ofdifferent, um, as a, as a resident.

Hmm.

Uh, it's very different to a foreigner going
over there and hunting and Yeah.
We would, you basically.
Bid on, uh, what they call a bag.
And a bag will have a number of differentanimals, of different species in it.
Mm-hmm.
That you're, you're allowed to, totake, to harvest, and it'll be for a

(32:52):
specific sort of geographical area.
Those, those numbers and speciesare determined by, um, population
counts that national parks do,con conservation services do.
And so they, they identify what the,what the ideal, uh, population is, the
ideal number of males and females, um,in order to keep that, that particular

(33:14):
species at an optimum level so thatthey don't, um, eat themselves out of
their environment or, or, um, in thecase of predators so that they don't.
Decimate the population of their preyor, or not control it enough, right?
So there's a delicate balance there.
And the hunter's role is basically theculling of the, the animals that are

(33:40):
deemed inefficient or, you know, not,not necessary for the optim levels.
So yeah, we would typically, itwould be two or three families.
Um, my dad and his, his friends,um, and their families that would go
to these hunting camps and set up,um, you know, we had it easy there.

(34:00):
There's a lot of sort ofmanual labor from the farms.
Most of my, my parents'friends were farmers.
They had manual labor there.
Their chance to go on a hunting tripwas like their vacation of the year.
They loved it.
Yeah.
Um, and so you, you'd go out on ahunt if you were able to harvest
an animal, you'd come back to campand you basically back the truck up
to, to the sort of slaughter area.

(34:22):
Mm-hmm.
And the guys would take over from thereand the, and the hunters would retreat
to, you know, the spot around the pool oraround a fire and, and have a cold snack.
And, um.
And everything else wouldbe sort of taken care of.

I love that.
Yeah.
That's spot around the pool.
Yeah.
You, you, you don't do that in bc? No.

No.

How about Ong?
You, you make Ong?
Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

There's a place in Langley where I get my built on from.
Yes.
Yeah.

Serengeti.

Yeah.
Yeah.
How does that compareto what you It's good.
Yeah,

it's good.
I mean, it's not game built on right.
So obviously a bit of a different tastethat they only process beef there.
Um, I've, I've been on them aboutthat, but they need a special
license to process wildlife.
I have made some of my own Moose Ongand Elk Ong over the years Love elk.
Uh, yeah.
But yeah, the, the, they're, they're good.

(35:13):
They're authentic.

Okay.
Mm-hmm.
That's good to know'cause I get that stuff.
Yeah.

Their chili

bites are fantastic.
Oh my God.
They're addictive, aren't they?
I just, I shouldn't

be mentioning it here.
'cause just like my secret outdoor spotsnow everyone's gonna be going there and
looking for these things and they're notgonna have any when I go into the shop.

Well, hopefully it keeps 'em in business and, uh, and
gets, uh, gets to make it more.
'cause I, I love those chili bites.
Yeah.
I'll just sit there and justslowly chew away with 'em.
Oh,

they're addictive.
Oh my God.

Yeah.
So you got yourself involved with,uh, border services for a bit?
Yes.

I started off in corrections actually.
Did

you?
Uh, yeah,

I started off in provincial corrections.

That's kind of a tough job.
It was

very negative workspace.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Hugely.
Yeah.
I was fresh out of universityand, and went in there.
Um, at the time, the way it wasstructured, it was very difficult.
They had a, you started off onwhat they call a call board.
Okay.
So you were basically a cushionfor overtime and you, you weren't
guaranteed full-time work.

(36:09):
You didn't go straight into shift work.
Mm. Um, they would call you in your,your performance when you applied,
when you went through the in-housetraining, all that kind of stuff.
Dictated where you werepositioned on that call board.
And then they would go down inorder, uh, on the call board.
And if people above you miss skipshifts or, or decline shifts, then
they give you the opportunity.

(36:30):
Mm. And so to start off with, I startedat the beginning of the summer and,
and worked like crazy all summer.
I thought this is great.
You know, I bought myself anew car and I was on my way.
And then winter came and all the regularstaff came back from their vacations
and suddenly there was no work forfive months, you know, six months.
So, ouch.
Yeah.
I got a job in a copper warehouse to help,you know, cover that sort of dead period.

(36:56):
Mm-hmm.
Ended up being promoted to warehousemanager there and, and got pretty busy.
And then corrections started callingme again and, and I couldn't break
away to take the shifts and Ihad to sort of make a decision.
So I opted for the stableincome and, and yeah.
Then a couple years after that, um,applied to CBSA and made it in there.

So corrections, everyone that I've known that has worked provincial
corrections, uh, they talk about howextremely negative the environment is.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Uh, not only just dealing with thecons, but also with your coworkers.

Coworkers were worse.
Just

That's right.
That's what I hear.
Just, yeah.

Just the attitude.
Yeah.
People are so bitter,especially the people that have
been there for a long time.
I think they see a lotof really negative stuff.
And I mean, it was, where Iworked was what they call a, a
quote unquote secure facility.
Mm. What other people around the worldwould call maximum security, I guess.
Okay.
Uh, as, as maximum as you canget on a provincial level anyway.

(37:58):
And yeah, you're, you'rebasically enclosed in a concrete
box for your 12 hour shift.
So not a lot of sunlightexposure, not a lot of nature,
not a lot of anything positive.

Um, not a big difference between you and the con in there
for that 12 hour shift, is there

Yeah.
No, no.
Just different uniform basic,just different uniform.

That's right.
No one calls you a boss.
Yeah, that's right.
Or goof.
Or goof.
Yeah.
Don't say goof.
No.
Yeah.
I don't know if that translatesover to a, uh, a us prisons,
but, uh, Canadian, I don't know.
Canadian prison.
That's like, that's prettymuch the worst he could call.
Yeah.
Someone as a goof, eh, mean

as soon as I hear someone on the street using that
word, I know they've been in prison.
Right.
They're a con They were a convict.
Yeah.

Yeah.
Um, or they've worked with cons.

Yeah,

yeah.
Yeah.
They picked it up somewhere Negative.
Any interesting experience working there?

Not particularly.
No.
Nothing.
Nothing too striking.

Yeah.
Um, yeah, I mean,

so I think that was, that was probably where I first learned that
you, you can't judge the capacity of anindividual to fight by their physique.
Um, the, the one thing that comes tomind was this little Vietnamese guy.
I mean, he was tiny.
I. To maybe, maybe just overfive foot if he was over five
foot and, and pretty scrawny.
And it took five of us toget him into a SAG unit.

(39:19):
And yeah.
That was interesting.
As a, as a young guy Mm. Sort of myfirst exposure to that kind of thing.
Yeah.
It's, it was surprisinghow, how strong he was.

Yeah.
He was wiry ones, I tell ya.
Yeah.

And I think the mentality has so much to
do with the ability to fight.

Yeah.
They say it's not about the, uh,size of the dog and the fight, but
the size of the fight and the dog.
That's right.
Yeah.
And there is something to that,but often it's always the little
people who say that one too.
Right.
Yeah.
Um, and then, so borderservices got on with there.
Mm-hmm.
And now you've got, thanks.
A bit more respectable job.

(39:57):
Yeah.
You're still in uniform.
Yeah.
And you're, um, still had to sort ofharass all the poor people at the border.
That's right.
Yeah.

Had to put in the, the grunt work hours in the booth,
you know, processing travelers.
But later on down the road it sort ofbranched out a little more and there was
more opportunity, um, to do things likeroving and, you know, to work on a special
enforcement team and that kind of thing.
So

that's

kind

of

cool.
Yeah.
Yeah.

So what, what is that, that gets you and you, you're confirmed
you got someone importing thingsillegally, so you can go to their house or

No, that would be inland.
Okay.
For services.
Um, no, it was more sort of.
I don't wanna say special operations'cause that has the wrong connotation,
but, but unique operations where theywould target specific incidences or, you
know, if we had intelligence that a flightof people smugglers was coming in and um,
you know, they would have, they would havethe people that had paid them to bring

(40:49):
them into Canada, flush their passportsdown the toilet, that kind of thing.
And then become in undocumented andclaim refugee status, that kind of thing.
Or, um,

is it pretty common?

Yeah, more common than you think?
Mm, or at least it was back then.
Um, we also would, would do likeairside operations where you're out
on the apron targeting, um, what quoteunquote ramp rats, you know, the,
the baggage handlers that got it.
That are involved with the truckers Yeah.
That are involved with, um, criminalelements and, um, picking up.

(41:21):
Packages from the cargo holds ofthe planes, that kind of thing.

Got it.
Mm-hmm.
That'd be kind of a fun one to do.

Yeah.

Kinda gets you out, you gotta get your
detective cap on a little bit.
Yeah.
And yeah,

it's anything that gets you outta that booth stuck
in a bulletproof vest, processingpeople all day is, is good.
Were you guys armed then?
No.
No.
Uh, we were armed.
Right, right.
As I was leaving, as I,as I was resigning, we, we
were starting to get armed.

Okay.
Yeah.

And

you, how long, was it about five years or so, was it?
No,

it was, uh, let see, 2000.
Yeah, six

years.
Six years.
Okay.
Yeah.
My research is off a little bit.
Yeah.
Close.
Maybe.
I was looking at year old research close.
Yeah.
And, uh, and what made you leave that?

So my, my fiance at the time, um, actually.
Wife at the time had a, a jobopportunity on Vancouver Island.
She was a, a radiation therapist.
Hmm.
Uh, so dealt with cancer patientsand was very difficult to get
full-time work in that field.
Uh, she had an opportunity andso we decided to, to uproot

(42:29):
and move over to the island.
Um, I had always wanted to flyhelicopters, so my goal was to go into
flight school and bit by bit startworking my way to rotary wing license.
And, uh, two weeks after I resigned,um, all of that was derailed
by, by a motorcycle accident.
So, yeah.

(42:51):
Tell me about that.

Let's hear that one.

Yeah, I mean, that's basically why I'm here.
I think, um, it was just, I, I hadpicked up some part-time work to cover
the gap while we were moving and, um,I. Uh, after work one day, headed out
to, we at the time was living in SouthSurrey, was heading out to Abbotsford.
Uh, well, went out toAbbotsford, uh, worked on my,

(43:14):
on my parents' boat with them.
Um, and then went to the movies andmission with some friends of mine and
was on my way home from, from the movies.
This is June, so still light outside.
Um, sort of later in the day.
Very hot day.
All I had on was jeans, flipflops, a t-shirt, and my helmet.

(43:36):
Um, I'm gonna catch a lotof heat for that probably.
And was heading home, um,riding down Bradner Road.
Mm-hmm.
And a, a young guy in a Passat with hisbuddies pulled out of a side street.
So I, I, you can picture I'mheading south on Bradner.
Mm-hmm.
They pull out of a sidestreet to make a left turn.

(43:58):
Mm-hmm.
In front of me.
And, um.
Uh, yeah, he, when he saw mecoming, he slammed on the brakes
and panicked, stopped right acrossthe road and I had nowhere to go.
Um, you know, it was deepditches on either side.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I was going a littlefaster than I should have been.
Mm-hmm.
And I slammed into the side of thatPassat, um, the bike, I, I, when I

(44:21):
locked up the brakes, the, the bikesort of slid and laid down the bike.
The bike went under the back of the car.
I hit the side of the car, sothe door jamb hit me sort of
right behind my, my right arm.
Mm-hmm.
I broke all my ribs.
Uh, my, I sort of got wedged under the cara bit, so broke my pelvis in four places.

(44:41):
They close it, call it aclo closed book fracture.
So your pelvis, which is kind oflike a bowl shape, closes in front.
Oh, ouch.
And, yeah, broke my back, um, broke myscapula in half and I. You, I had a co bad
concussion, had a collapsed lung, one ofthe ribs punctured and collapsed the lung.
Mm. Severed spleen, lacerated liver.

(45:03):
Um, a lot of road rash and No kidding.
Yeah.
Was conscious throughout the whole ordeal.
And I, yeah, I, I recall the sort of thecoppery taste, the, the blood in my mouth
and couldn't really breathe very well,I guess because of the collapsed lung.
Mm. And so I felt like, for whateverreason, I felt like my helmet

(45:26):
was restricting my breathing.
Mm. So pulled my, my own helmet off,and which I shouldn't have done.
Um, fortunately it didn'texacerbate any problems, but yeah,
it was a, it was an experience.

No kidding.

I remember lying there and thinking, so going back
to Zimbabwe and the unrest there,Mugabi was the president at the time.
I. And I remember lying there and thinkingas much as I loath that individual, I
wouldn't even wish this pain on him.
Mm. Uh, yeah.
I remember that thought hitting me.

Yeah.
Wow.
And the pain, you didn't gointo shock, you didn't have the
opportunity for the body to kindof numb that pain a little bit?

No.
Um, definitely wasn't numbed at all.
I don't shock.
I don't know about I, I'msure I was in some shock.
Mm. Um, but I, I remember the pain.
Yeah.
And, and I remember the paramedicsarriving, strapping me to a board.
And the board they put me on, theyhad to roll me to the side to get
the one side of the board under me.

Mm.

And then rolled me back onto it.
And, and then there was, there werethree straps that sort of secured
you to the, to the clamshell.
It wasn't a clamshell, itwas a board at the time.
Uh, now they have clamshells.
Right.
Which would've been better.
And the strap that they put over mymidsection, um, when he sort of put it
through and cinched it up, it, it closedmy pelvis because everything was broken.

(46:48):
And I wish I could have punchedthat guy, but I didn't have
the, the ability at the time.
Um, but yeah, not, not pleasant.
And then they, they took meto I Oxford Hospital Hospital.
And when they realized the extent of theinjuries transferred me to Royal Columbia.

So how long was the recovery on that one?

The physical recovery is one thing.
Mm-hmm.
Um, you know, the emotional, psychologicalrecovery is a different story.

Hmm.

Physical recovery, I'd say probably a year and a half, two years.
To be at the point whereI was walking again.
Hmm.
Um, yeah, there was a lot thatwent into that, into physio,
into, you know, pushing myself.
I started physio earlierthan I was supposed to.
I just, I just was, I justwanted to get outta the bed.

(47:35):
Hmm.
Um, was chomping at the bit and yeah, Ihad to transfer myself from the bed to the
wheelchair with my arms across a board.
And, um, started with the wheelchair,just getting out of the bed and
then slowly started weightbearing.
Um.
Little by little and the, yeah, the body,the body's ability to heal is remarkable.

(48:00):
Mm-hmm.
Um, you know, I had to gothrough several s well, two, I
think two or three surgeries.
Uh, I have a bunch of titanium hardware inmy pelvis now and, and some other places.
And yeah, it was, you know, but itwas, it was a tangible challenge.
It was something tangible.
The, the pain was tangible, youknow, I could, I could feel it.

(48:22):
Um, it was something that I,I could, I could feel, I could
identify to work through.
Hmm.
The psychological and emotionalimpact was not tangible.
It wasn't something that I could, youknow, quantify and, and, and, um, find the
parameters of and work toward moving past.

(48:43):
I didn't understand, um, the fullimpact that, that the accident had had.
I did go to a psychologist and wasdiagnosed with major depressive
disorder and, uh, PTSD andsevere anxiety post-accident.
Um, so that was interesting.
Did

you feel you had any of that

pre-accident?
No.
Okay.
No, definitely not.
Um, no.
I, I had never had any symptoms of,of any of those things pre-accident.
So,

major depressive disorder, anxiety.
PTSD.
PTSD.
Yeah.
What is, um, MDD look like?
Um,

it's hard, it's hard to put a finger on that.
I mean, it was just the, the bestway I can describe it is sort
of like, um, a heavy gray raincloud around you all the time.
Like no matter what youwere going through, it just.
Nothing was pleasant, nothing was,nothing was the same, nothing was fun.

(49:48):
Like, it was just, um, you know,it a constant state of depression.
It's like, it's like when you'rein the height of winter here in
January, you know, and you're waitingfor summer and it never comes.
It's

great.

It's like a, yeah, just a perennial January,
you know, just all year long.
It's just January.
Um, and you can never, you know,nothing you, nothing you do, um,
sort of blows the clouds away.
It's just, you're just stuckin that, in a rut of, of cold
wetness and an emotional sense.

Well, what was your support network like?

Um, I, as I mentioned, I was married at the time.
Right.
She was great.
Um.
She was a great woman.
Uh, not, not the right person for meby any means, but a great individual.
And she was really my only real support.
I had a handful of friends thatwere, that stuck by me through that.

(50:46):
Um, the groups that I had beeninvolved with leading up to that
point, a lot of them sort ofdisappeared into the woodwork.
I don't know if that's becauseI wasn't as fun to be around.
I don't know if it's because they, theydidn't really know how to offer support.
Um, I don't know what the reason is,but they, they just sort of vanished.
Um, and that.

(51:09):
You know, the, the two years afterthe accident sort of culminated
in, in a divorce, ultimately, um,amicable but difficult nonetheless.
Mm. And, um, I think it justsort of exposed the cracks in the
relationship that were already there.
Uh, it just sort of, it was a catalystmade things break down faster and Yeah.

(51:32):
That, yeah, I ended up, uh, ina little basement suite with
both vehicles off the road.
I couldn't afford to insure them, wasstuck on disability, which, which paid
peanuts basically covered my rent.
And that was about it.
My, my parents had gone back to Zimbabwe.
Um, they, they were only here for a shortperiod and then had, had gone back so.

(51:56):
For the majority of that recoverytime, the, the five years or so after
the, the accident, they, I didn'treally have much of a support network.
Um, but the ones that were supportive,uh, really stepped up and, and stood out.

It's interesting how things can happen in our life that act as a
bit of a, a light that'll shine on andyou find these groups and people who you
thought were friends who just disappear.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Fair enough.
See ya.
Yeah.
And sometimes you find that there's peoplethat come out of the woodwork that you'd
never expect, or people that you wouldexpect to kind of be there, but they, they

(52:35):
step up in ways that you'd never expect.
Yeah, yeah.
Absolutely.

Yeah.

So tell me about what it was like with these
people that were there for you.

Yeah.
I mean, I. Uh, communication,uh, was a big one.
Just people reaching out andsort of, um, checking in.
Um, there were some people thatstepped up and, and offered help
financially, uh, or in terms ofresources, just food, that kind of thing.
Hmm.

(53:08):
Um, which was, you know, I never askedfor it, but it was more appreciated than
I think they'll, they'll ever really know.
Mm-hmm.
And, um, it was, it was a struggle.
There were times where I, I, I existed ona bowl of Cheerios with water every day.
Um, or, or would snack on drycereal, that kind of thing.
I just couldn't afford anything else.

(53:30):
And I'm sure in, in hindsight, I'm surethere were probably resources available
to me, like, um, government fundedor, or food banks, that kind of thing.
But I didn't, I didn't know at the time,and it was, I, I come from a background
where you, you just take care of it.
You know, you don't rely on other people.
You're not entitled to anything.
You're, you're on your own.

(53:51):
No one's coming.
You, you have to figure out a plan.
So I, I didn't, I didn't lookinto that or lean into it as,
as I probably should have.
Mm-hmm.
Um, yeah, I mean, it, it ultimately,one of those individuals, um,
I, I reached my rock bottom.
I, I felt like those clouds had sort ofclosed in, like curtains all around me.

(54:15):
I couldn't see past the immediate and,and was just completely hope hopeless.
Um.
And, and, and done fed up with everything.
And, um, there were, there were asequence of events that were really
heavy and, and placed a burdenon me that I had no capacity to
be able to deal with financially.

Mm.

And the, I, I only saw one way out and yeah, it was,
it was in that context, right.
Literally at the, at the last momentthat I heard a knock on my door
and ignored it and heard a knockon my window and ignored that too.
And then heard a knock on my slidingdoor at my patio and thought, who,
who is making this much of an effort?

(54:58):
So, put down what I was doingthat I shouldn't have been doing.
And went to you, you'd made a decision.
You're gonna take your life.
Yeah.
Yes.

Yeah.

Uh, wasn't sure if, if you wanted me to, to No, that's fine.
Come right out and say that, but

I, I think there's a lot of value there.
The reason why I want totalk about this mm-hmm.
Is because I don't think, uh, while yoursituation is unique to you, I don't think
the feelings that you have or what you gothrough is gonna be a unique situation.
Right.
And I think there's a lot ofpeople out there that could be

(55:30):
feeling similar things or goingthrough them, some similar things.
And if we can extract from yourexperience, um, the raise of light, the,
the places that help the most, the lessonsthat we learn, um, I think there's a
lot of value to your story, to others.

Yeah.
I, I mean, that's why I'm here.
Mm-hmm.
Um, really that if, if the only thing Iget out of this whole experience is being
able to give someone else out there abit of a different perspective and, and
a bit of hope, a hopeful perspective,then it's, it's rewarding for me.
That's, that's, yeah.

So you're in a situation where you felt there was no hope, right?
You felt there was no other way out.
Financial burdens were so great.
The mindset was as such that, okay,well this is my time to check out.

Yeah.
I mean, my, my identity waswrapped up in my abilities and my
physique and my Mm. You know, itwas, it was very materialistic.
It was not, not in the terms of, not interms of belongings, but just aesthetics.
Mm. Um, my marriage, you know,and, and all of those things
have been ripped away from me.

(56:38):
And you were involvedwith the church as well?
Yes.
Are you still involved?
No.
Um, I, I have a very strong faith.
Mm. Um, you know, but I, I'vebecome very disenfranchised
with the established church.
Um, you know, there was a point wherewhen I came back from Texas, from the, the
Close protection course I was on, they.

(57:01):
I saw my ex there with her mom.
I gave them both a big hug,you know, we chatted for a bit.
I sat with them through the service, andwhen I was leaving, my, my ex-wife was,
um, in position at the front door to greetpeople arriving for the next service.
So I saw her, she, she came out, youknow, sort of chased me down in the
parking lot to give me a hug goodbye andgot emotional when she walked back up.

(57:24):
The pastor saw her like that, and Iwasn't privy to any of that conversation,
but essentially from what she told meat the time, he asked her if it made
it difficult for her to see me there.
Uh, she said, yeah, you know,it was, it was emotional.
So.
That precipitated him reachingout to me, asking to get together.
I met with him at a restaurant wherehe showed up with an elder from the

(57:45):
church and asked me not to come back.
Hmm.
And, um, years later, he reached out againand apologized and asked to meet with me.
So I met with him.
Um, I had a young East Indianguy that was, um, a coworker that
had, had become a Christian, wasinterested in going to church.
I really wanted him to be ableto plug in there because the
doctrine was really sound.

Mm.

And the teaching was good.
He had a way of connecting with peoplethat didn't grow up in the church.

Mm.

And so I, I was, I was eager to be able to plug him in,
but he didn't want to go without me.
He wanted me to come with him.
Hmm.
So that was, you know, I met with, withthe pastor at the, at this coffee shop.
He had a great talk.
He apologized profusely and, um.
And then he said, when I wassaying goodbye to him, he said,
I'm just going to, I'll speak toso-and-so, my ex and just check

(58:35):
with her that she's okay with it.
And so, yeah, couple weeks, coupleweeks later, I got a message from him
to say, yeah, she's not okay with it.
So don't, don't come.
So that, that was it.
That was the nail in the coffin from me.
Um, did you have prior

to that, was that a, um, a social network for you?

Absolutely.
Yeah.
That, I mean, the majority of my closefriends were from the church group.
They were church people.
We had a, we host survivalstudy in our home.
Um, you know, I was, I was very connected.
I was involved with that churchright from when it was a church
plant, and, and it blew up.
It became huge.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and we were very involved.
We did security, you know, at the church.

(59:16):
We, and, and my, my buddies, my.
My group was the church group.
And, and that's what struck me was theywere the ones that sort of vanished.
The majority of them just vanishedbecause I no longer fit inside that
cookie cutter Christianese sort of image.
Um, I had gone through a divorce.

(59:37):
I was dealing with depression.

I,

you

know,

things were real, and yeah.
That's,

that's when you need that support the most.
Exactly.

And, and I know, I know that like what, what Christians is
supposed to be is inclusive, you know,reaching out to people in positions
of need, reaching out, like, likeJesus' passion was for the lost sheep.
Sure it wasn't, it wasn't for the onesin the, you know, in, in the herd.
It was for the lost sheep.
He, even when he was walking the planet,it was, it was the sick and dying.

(01:00:08):
It was the, the prostitutes.
It was the, you know, the peoplethat needed him the most mm-hmm.
That he reached out to.
So the fact that, um, the establishedchurch, by and large, uh, is known to the
secular world for judgemental attitudes,self-righteousness, exclusivity, things
that are not at all what, what the,the church is supposed to be about.

(01:00:30):
Um, just kind of left abad taste in my mouth.
And yes, there's a lot of good to it.
Um, you know, the.
I don't discredit that.
Uh, but it's, the church is people,the church is not a building.
It's a human institution.
And, and people are flawed right.
By nature.
So you can't expect a pera perfect portrayal of
Christianity through the people.

(01:00:51):
Like they're, they're allbroken too, in their own ways.
Yes.
So yeah, my faith is so strong.
My, you know, I, I believe in whatI believe in, but my church is
the outdoors, my church, uh, beingaround people that are authentic and,
and just having real conversationsand, and real in depth discussion.
Mm-hmm.
About spirituality.

Travis Bader (01:01:11):
Yeah.
It's funny.
Uh, bear grills, so he'sopen about his faith.
He, uh, says somethingvery similar to that.
He says, my church isn't inside a, achapel with all these other people.
It's when I sit down around the tablewith my family and my kids mm-hmm.
This is when I'm outside andwe're engaging with each other.
And he says, well, maybe I'll reada little bit of scripture and.

(01:01:33):
Before dinner or whatever it might be.
Yeah.
But that's church.
Yeah.
And it doesn't have to be, uh,pious on Sunday, getting dressed up,
doing the, uh, doing the whole act.
Yeah.
And then going back towhatever it is you're doing.
Yeah.
There's,

Heath Jackson (01:01:47):
you know, I, I mean, I grew up around that.
Yeah.
I grew up, we, we would go to theStates, um, for a year at a time.
We made two trips over during my, myfirst 20 years of life, I believe.
And you go to all kinds of churches,uh, churches that supported my parents
that they went to give feedback to.
And, you know, they'd put on a slideshowand they'd have a table with Curios

(01:02:08):
on it, and they'd, they'd talk tothem about the work they were doing
and the impact they were having.
And I mean, the people spoke Christianese,like the, you know, the, Hey, how
are ya, you know, welcome here.
And I mean, it was just,it just, it just smacked of

ugly do neighbor, you know?
Yeah.

Yeah.
And, um, their, even theirinterests seemed feigned.
Mm. Um.
N not all of them again.
Sure.
There are always exceptions to the ruleand, and the exceptions to the rule
were people I really appreciated there,there were authentic people there.
Mm. But I grew up aroundthat sort of false persona.

(01:02:45):
Um, people who are acting acertain way one day of the week.

Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
So you're sitting there in your basement,you don't have the social network anymore.
Yeah.
Heavy financial burdens.
Yeah.
You're not reaching out to anybody.
No.
Some people are reaching out to you.

Yes.
Okay.

And you've got a shotgun.
Yeah.

Yeah.

And then you've got a friend knocking on the door.

Yeah.
Yeah.
So I, I put the shotgun down.
Um.
I went to the door and sort of hadthese wooden louvers on the window
of the door, and I, I lifted oneto peep through and he saw me.
So, uh, I couldn't, Icouldn't walk away from that.
I knew you'd seen me.
I had already written a letter to myparents and a letter to my sister, um,

(01:03:33):
you know, leading up to pulling, pullingout the shotgun and that kind of thing.
And as soon as I opened thedoor and, and he saw, he's a,
a 6 5, 6 6, big German guy.
Um, and he, he, he knew somehow, he knewsomething was up and he gave me this
big bear hug, um, lifted me right offthe ground and, I mean, I'm not small.

(01:03:58):
No you're not.
So, yeah, that herefused to leave my side.
Um, it just happened at that morning.
His, his wife was involved withfirearms instruction at, at the
Chillowak Center for the CBSA.
Um.
Her car wouldn't start that morning.
So he had driven her to workand on the way home stopped in
Abbotsford where I was at the time.

(01:04:20):
Um, just to say hi, and knew I washome, knew I should have been home.
Mm. And just hadn't givenup for whatever reason.
Um, you know, I, I believe personallythat that was, there was definitely
some divine intervention going on there.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, the number of coincidences thathad to line up for that to happen, I,

(01:04:41):
I don't believe one coincidence most ofthe time, let alone a handful like that.
So yeah, he, he stayed with me.
Uh, back in those days.
It was hanging autumn,playing Call of Duty together.
We went out to, to a pub and hada couple drinks and went home.
He crashed on my couch, um, andwouldn't leave until I promised I
wasn't gonna do anything stupid.

(01:05:02):
And, uh, yeah, he's, he's beenlike, he's one of those friends
that is loyal to the core that hasbeen by my side since he met me.
And, uh, one of my good huntingbuddies, a lot of the hunting
I've done has been with him.
Uh, just an awesome guy.
He's a pilot now.
Mm. Um, and yeah, he, he saved my life.

(01:05:25):
And the, the journey from there on was,um, it was a slow sort of pulling back on
the yoke and pulling out of a nose dive.
It was slow to begin withand got incrementally faster.
The more,

go ahead.
What did that look like?

Um, I realized I needed to, I needed to make a shift.
Hmm.
Um, I think the, the fog clearedenough that I realized how selfish of
a decision I had been considering andhow, how hurtful that would've been to
people in my life that I cared about.
Mm. Um, and I, I didn'twant to end up there again.

(01:06:08):
So I started.
I guess, I guess I just,I wanted to change things.
I wanted different circumstances.
Mm-hmm.
And I gained a, I gained a bit ofa motivation, um, to, to find what
that was gonna look like for me.
And again, I believe by divineintervention, those, those

(01:06:32):
pieces fell into place for me.
Um, I started to, I started to receivetools to add to my toolbox that,
that I could use in that process.
And one of those resources was anuncle of mine who had also been
involved in the Rhodesian Bush war.
Had moved from South Africa toAustralia, very successful, uh,

(01:06:55):
guy, very successful in business.
I'd always had a reallystrong relationship with him.
Uh, one of my, my mom's brothers,and he reached out to me.
I don't know if it was because my,my parents asked him to, I don't, I
don't know, reached out to me and Itrusted him enough that I was willing
to listen to what he had to say.

(01:07:16):
Um, one of the most incredibleguys I've, I've ever known.
And, uh, yeah.
He started mentoring mefrom Australia via WhatsApp.
Um, he would send me video clips andchallenge me to, to memorize them or
would, would quiz me on them later.
And

video clips of what?

Uh, so one of, one of the most, uh, standoutish ones mm-hmm.
Was a commencement speech givenby Admiral William McCraven

mm-hmm.

Who was the commander of JSO Yes.
In the States.
And he was giving acommencement speech to.
To the graduates fromthe University of Texas.
And, um,
I guess the, the, the sort of frameworkof that speech had to do with his
experience of Hell Week, uh, and trainingfor the Navy Seals and the challenges

(01:08:08):
that he had gone through there.
And he broke them downinto point form basically.
Uh, and so yeah, it had to do withme, listen, I listened to that.
It's about half an hour long and Ilistened to it probably 50 times.
Mm-hmm.
And pulled something new out ofit every time and just incredibly

(01:08:28):
motivational speech and a huge part ofthat, a huge component, uh, that sort
of was an overlying theme throughoutthe whole, the whole speech was, uh,
the importance of having an impact.
And it struck me that.
You know how good of a hunter you are.
You know, I like 1998, I, I was givena trophy for Zimbabwe Hunter of the

(01:08:52):
Year, junior Hunter of the Year.
And, um, there were, there wereaccolades like that through my life
that I'd sort of ba um, earned mm-hmm.
And treasured.
And they, they formed part of myidentity and there were achievements,
you know, the experiences I had had.
Um, and it struck me all thosethings when you leave are gone.

(01:09:14):
Mm-hmm.
And no one cares about them.
Mm-hmm.
And no one's gonna remember them.
So if, if I wanna leave a legacy andI don't have billions of dollars to,
you know, to leave to family members,like what kind of impact can I have
on the people that are following?
What kind of legacy can I start to build?
Um, 'cause that's something thatwill give me purpose and, um.

(01:09:40):
And so that, I mean,that's why I'm here mm-hmm.
Is, is to have an impact.
If I can impact one person and that oneperson can take that whatever it was
from this conversation that impacted themand, and carry it on down the road and
impact another person, that, that, thatbecomes an exponential positive impact.
Um, and that affects change over time.

(01:10:02):
And the, several of the, the keypoints throughout that speech have also
stuck with me through, over the years.
I mean, it's been, uh, 15years now since the accident.
And, and those themes, thosepoints still carry weight.
They still impact my day-to-day life.

(01:10:23):
Um, things like, for example, he talksabout doing an infiltration into a
harbor at night, undercover of darkness.
They're dropped off abouta kilometer offshore.
They swim into the harbor with rebreathersunderwater, even, even at that time,
underwater at night with rebreathers.
There, there is ambient light,starlight moonlight as you get

(01:10:45):
into the harbor, the harbor lights.
Um, but then he, he describes howtheir mission was to place charges
on the hull of a boat, uh, of a ship.
And they, they go under, under thekeel of this ship and all of a sudden
all of the ambient light is gone.
Mm. And it's absolute pitch black.
And, um, your ability to fall back onthe training you've had on your, on

(01:11:12):
your confidence, on your competence,um, and not panic when you can't see
your hand in front of your face mm-hmm.
And achieve the, the taskis, um, is paramount.
Mm-hmm.
And who you are as a Navy seal, how youperform in that moment is all that counts.

(01:11:32):
And, and so the, the, um, the sortof parallel to that in, in my life
was, uh, you're, you're only as goodas you are in your darkest hour.
Mm. You're only as good of a person asyou are when the proverbial hits the fan.
When you, when everything is strippedaway from you, when you, you know,
you don't have hope, you don't havesunshine, you don't have positivity,

(01:11:56):
that's when it matters who you are.
That's when you have an opportunityto show the world and the people
around you, what you're made of.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and, and that'swhat stays with people.
Uh, who you are.
When you know you're in a Jeep withthe top down, cruising along a river
and BC's backwoods, and you've got,you know, some drinks you're gonna

(01:12:17):
have at the beach and maybe a cult thatyou're gonna smoke around a fire or, or
like when things are good, when you'rehappy, when you've got a brand new
relationship and you're excited and, uh,that who you are then doesn't matter.
Um, what, what matters is, canyou, can you be consistent?
Can you be that kind of a positive person?

(01:12:38):
Um, that kind of a solid individual when,when your circumstances are, are shit, you
know, can you, can you pull it together?
So that, that's something thatreally stuck with me, that I
took as a personal challenge.
And I mean, there's abiblical theme there too.
Like the Bible talks about beingcontent in any circumstance.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, so it was a challenge spiritually for me as well.
Yes.

You know, I, a few things there come to mind.
I'm reminded of the kids' book wherethe, uh, these animals are lost in
the forest and one of them's given up.
I just can't see my way throughand says, well, can, can you see
the edge of the forest over there?
No.
Well, can you see your feet?
Yes.
Can you see your next step?
Yes.
Well, let's just take that.
Yeah.
Right.

Yeah.

And you talk about.
Purpose, how massive purposeis for, for people to be happy.
Mm-hmm.
You know, I've, I actually made alist of things for Mental Health
Month coming up of, uh, and I had AIrank my list that I made of what's
gonna give people the most impact.
And so I'll probably record somevideos of that when that comes up.

(01:13:46):
But, um, purpose is one of the thingsI have in there and it, and it's huge.
Mm-hmm.
Um, Harvard did a study, what's thenumber one predicate of, uh, happiness
and contentment in people's lives across.
It was an 80 year study acrossall different walks of life,
all different, uh, ethnicitiesand backgrounds and beliefs, and

(01:14:07):
it's strong social connections.
Mm-hmm.
Um, you said it how selfish the decisionthat you were about to make was, you
look back on that as being selfish.
And one of the things that, uh, Ihave talked to other people about and
I've, uh, I thought, well, you know,that's, that's a really interesting

(01:14:29):
thing that can help give purpose.
They say taking your own life doesn'tsolve the pain, it just transfers it.
Mm-hmm.
Viktor Frankl had a, um, uh, older mancome in, father modern local therapy, man,
search for meaning, talks about purposeand the rest, and man says, my wife died.
I just can't carry on living.

(01:14:50):
I just, I'm so filled with the grief.
He says, well, how would yourwife feel if you died first?
So she'd be beside herself.
It'd be terrible.
I don't know how she'd go on.
I says, well, would you want her to carryon her life and be miserable and well no.
Right?
And I says, well, you spared yourwife that grief by outliving her.

(01:15:14):
You have purpose, that is your purpose,is to bear that hardship and bear it in a
way, like you say in your darkest hours.
That's what matters, man.
Leaves.
Okay.
Makes sense.
I'm good to go.
And that little reframe of wherethat purpose is for people who
are thinking of giving up becausethey don't have the money.
Because it'll be easier on otherpeople because whatever it might

(01:15:36):
be, it doesn't work that way.
Mm-hmm.
And it's generational.
You have kids, you have family members.
It's one of these thingsthat will has been proven.
It's an option for you.
It's an option for me.
Do you want that for other people?
And if not, there's purpose.
Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, I like that.
And the, how will you be met, remembered?
That, that's something that I've used withpeople as well in different circumstances.
It's something I use with myself, right?
It's holy crap, thingsare getting really bad.
How do I want to be remembered?
Well, not like, not like how I'mfeeling right now, that's for sure.
Yeah.
Like I used that with my wife when shewas giving birth with our first child.

(01:16:22):
And I said, well, she'd alwaystalk about, uh, her grandmother,
what a tough woman she was.
I said, tomorrow's gonna come.
All of this pain will have subsided andyou're gonna be able to look back on
how you acted over the next 27 hoursor whatever, what she was a labor for.
Like maybe, maybe thisisn't the right thing.
It was the right thing for her.
She says, yeah, I'm not suggestingother people say this to their wives,

(01:16:45):
but how do you want to be remembered?
How do you want your kids andgrandkids to remember how you,
uh, dealt with this difficulty?
Yeah.
And she says that reframechanged everything.

Uh, yeah.
I mean, for me too, there's, thisjust popped into my head, but.
Yeah, I grew up playing SLUScout and SAS with my buddies.
You know, my dad would, would cut us,um, basically like the outline of a,
of a, a salt rifle, you know, and,and I'd have, he'd, he'd bolt a screw,
a, um, a door bolt onto the side.

(01:17:17):
So it was bolt action.
Yeah.
And, um, we grew up with those toys.
We didn't have toy gunsyou could buy really.
Um, but that was, I wanted, Iwanted to be part of what my
uncles and my dad had been part of.
Mm-hmm.
But by the time I was of military age,you know, there was nothing happening.
There was no, the, the armed forces inZimbabwe were all black at that stage, you

(01:17:38):
know, like there, there was no prospect.
I came over here, I had anobligation to, to the scholarship.
You know, like I, there was anexpectation there that I go to
university and outta university,I needed to be making a living.
I, I couldn't take a break.
I had grandparents here.
I was the only one here for a while.
Um, so it's sticking aroundto sort of be there for them.
I, I just never, I miss the boat.

(01:18:00):
On, on, uh, joining the ArmedForces as a, as a regular member.
And I often think, you know, I would'veloved to have gone, um, JTF two or,
or Seals or, um, search and rescue,uh, with, with Canadian forces.
And, um, all of my, my hobbies, youknow, align with that, like scuba diving,

(01:18:23):
repelling, parachuting, all, all thatkind of stuff is stuff I love to do.
Hmm.
So the thought of being paid to do it.
Um, anyway, there's, there's this sortof overlying theme where I've, I've had
this sort of imposter syndrome a lot ofthe time, you know, like I, I don't feel
like I belong upon among the likes ofSeb and some of the other guys you've
had on your podcast, you know, 'causethere's a, there's a pedigree there.

(01:18:47):
Um.
And I, and I haven't really, yeah.
You know, some anti-poaching.
Yeah.
Some law enforcement.
But I wasn't an actual cop, youknow, I wasn't a police officer.
I was an ERT.
Um, so there's, there's this,for a long time I felt like I,
you know, I, I missed the boat.

Hmm.

And, and it struck me when I, when I was pulling, pulling
outta that nose dive, like, this ismy, this is my opportunity to show
that I'm made of the same stuff.

A hundred percent.

This is my chance to show that, um, I have the grit mm-hmm.
To, to make it through no matterwhat life throws at me, no matter
what, stripped away from me.
You know, I'm, I'm in a place nowwhere I'm, I'm very fortunate.
I'm blessed.
I've got a beautiful home.
I don't own it.
I rent it.
Um, but I have a beautiful living place.
Uh, we have a boat, I have a bike.

(01:19:38):
I have a car or a truck.
Um, you know, I, I'm, I havea lot going for me, but.
I, I am not disillusioned at all.
I'm very well aware that nextweek all of that could be gone.

Mm-hmm.

The, the relationships that I hold dear could be gone.
None of the stuff that Ihave around me is permanent.
It, it will all at some point, fade away.
And, and I'm okay with that, you know, andthat the experience that I went through
is what enabled me to, to reach thatstage where my happiness, my contentment,

(01:20:15):
my authenticity is not contingent uponany relationship or material belonging.

Mm-hmm.

That's the most valuable, one of the most valuable
lessons that I came out of that with.

And that's a hard earned lesson.
Mm-hmm.
And that's a difficult one toshare with other people if they
haven't earned it in the same way.
Some people are smart, right.
Some people can listen, look atwhat you've done, pick it up,
and learn and grow from that.
I've always been one of those ones who hasto touch the stove to learn that it's hot.
Yeah.
Oh, that's what you meant by hot?
Yeah, like hot.

(01:20:46):
What do you mean?
Like hot?
Hot?
Like how hot, right.
Yeah.
Can I do it real quick?
Um, but there's, you, you know, you talkabout, oh, I wasn't ERT or it wasn't like
if you're a city cop, well, but you'renot, um, uh, clue or oka or, or ERT or,

yeah.

Um, if you're ert well you're, you're not SEAL or
Delta Force JTF two or SaaS, right?
Yeah.
If you're SaaS, like, there'salways levels to these things.
I'm, I'm reminded like, uh, Dean Nugent,he was out climbing with Jace Bud and Jace
High level mountaineer, well accreditedex British Army, um, actually did SCS

(01:21:27):
selection a couple of times and uh, uh,Dean, he's just kind of getting into it.
Girl comes up, says, oh, you're a climber.
He, oh, no, no, I'm not a climber.
I Jace over here.
He's the climber.
And she's like, well.
I don't know.
You got a harness and a helmeton, you're attached to a rope.
I'm not, you look like a climber to me.
Right.
It's like, I guess I'm a climber, right?

Yeah.

There's always gonna be, uh, levels to these things

and we're, we're our own toughest critics.
Yeah.
You know, no one, no one looks atus with as much criticism as we do.
Mm-hmm.

And no one cares.

Yeah.

Really.
Uh, and the things that wedo bad, we're so embarrassed
about or whatever it might be.
Mm-hmm.
It's not even other, otherpeople's radar for the most part.
And if it's on their radar,it's shortly on their radar.
And the important people, they don't care.
Right.
Yeah.
The people who would pick at thein poke holes and point fingers,
it's like they say, um, nobody evercraps on the people behind them.

(01:22:26):
Right.
Um, sorry.
Nobody ever craps on thepeople ahead of them.
That makes a, a little bit more sense.
Um.
Do I have that one right?
No, it, it essentially,

yeah.
People are trying to tear iton to people ahead of them.

Thank you.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
Uh, the people ahead of you,they wanna see you succeed.
Right.
And so the people, well,

the, yeah.
The

people

behind them, they wanna see succeed because they're already there.
Right.
The people ahead of them, theywant to be where they are.
So they don't, they don't liketheir, that they're succeeding.
I think

maybe you made that a lot more eloquent than I, but, but, and
that's something always to keep in mind.
Why is this person trying to tear me down?
Well, it's not becausethey're ahead of me.
It's not 'cause they're betterthan me in any single way.
It's because they're unableto even be where I'm at.
Yeah.
And the only way that they can seethemselves as being successful is by
tearing down the others around them.

Yeah.
Those who've who'veachieved what they want.
Yeah.

Yeah.
So that judgment that you get from otherpeople, maybe that's another thing that
people can keep in the back of their head.

Mm-hmm.

Because we are social creatures and judgment means something.
And you weren't reaching out for help.
Why, because you're concerned about howyou might look or people judging you.
Why, why wouldn't you reach out?

You know, there wasn't really a, a cognitive
exercise attached to that.
So all I can do really is hypothesize.
There must have been somesort of psych subconscious.
I, I'm sure it had somethingto do with the fact that
I, number one, I didn't have, um,the, the network around me that I

(01:24:03):
felt I could confide into that extent.
Um, like I said, my parents wereoutta country for the majority of
that stretch when it was the worst.
Um, my parent, my, my sister wasfar away and they all had lives,
lives and problems of their own.
I just didn't, I didn'twant to be a burden.

Right.
And I think that's it there.

And I, and a lot of the time, you know, a lot of
the time I see people reachingout on social media for handouts.
Um.
I'm in some groups, some communitygroups, you know, and it, it's, it amazes
me, uh, the number of times people willreach out with, with no shame at all.
And it's repeated.
Mm. And, you know, it, it, itdoes not feel authentic to me.

(01:24:47):
Mm-hmm.
And I didn't want tobe one of those people.
I didn't want to expect thatbecause I had made bad decisions.
Someone else was gonnastep up and help me.
Um, there was, there was a lot, youknow, and I, yeah, I, I came to the
point where I realized that where,where I was ultimately when you

(01:25:09):
boil it down enough was solely res,um, was solely a consequence of my
own decisions, uh, my own actions.
Mm-hmm.
The, the kid that ran the stopsign, you know, it wasn't his fault.
Um, my ex-wife, nothing was her fault.
Like, not nothing was anyoneelse's fault but my own.
Mm-hmm.

(01:25:30):
But that was.
It was a, it was a tough pill to swallow,but it was empowering at the same time.

You need

that because I, I realized the flip side of that coin
was if, if I'm gonna end up where Iwant to be in life with the set of
circumstances that I desire for myself,that's also only gonna be my fault.
It's, it's only gonna be a, aresult of my decisions, my actions.

(01:25:56):
It's not gonna be a result ofhandouts, it's not gonna be a
result of other people's decisions.
I fully have the potential withinmyself to place myself where I want
to be, um, because I fully had thepotential in my, within myself,
to place myself at rock bottom.

I think, uh, the, when you talk about the flip side, on that
flip side as well, is if it's not yourfault why these things happened, that
means you don't have any control overwhy these things are happening to you.
Mm-hmm.
And if you don't have any control andeverything you're looking at is like, oh,
now I'm in an accident and I'm with friendgroups leaving out, you're a victim.

(01:26:35):
You're the victim.
Mm-hmm.
And the faster people can get themselvesoutta this victim mentality, the
faster they're able to start gettingthemselves on track to healing.

Yeah.
A hundred percent.

Um, you know, there's a, um, a doctor and he says, um, patients will
come in, they'll say that they're, they'reat the end, they're gonna take their life.
And he says, you know, I don'ttry and tell them, no, here's
what you gotta live for.
Here's what he says.
I say, that might be a good idea, butnow's not the time to make that decision.

(01:27:06):
You're probably not thinkingclearly in this moment.
How about you write it down and we'll justtake a look at this in, in a month or so?
Yeah.
And we'll come back and, and youknow, if after a few more visits
we're looking at this, it stillseems like a, like the way to go.
Maybe it is the idea, but mayhave a sober second thought.
And you look at this, hesaid he hasn't lost anybody.

(01:27:27):
Mm-hmm.
By doing that.
Um, it gives them control andpower and it's not, not like
it's all being taken from them.
Yeah.
It gives 'em agency.
Gives 'em agency.
Mm-hmm.
You had some letters thatyou wrote to your family.
Did you hold onto them?

I had sent the one to my parents.
I don't think I had sentthe, the one to my sister.
Mm. Um, but either waythey're their history now.
Oh, you emailed them?
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah,

I think it was Facebook Messenger or something like
that with a sober second thought.
Looking back at them,does it look ridiculous?

No.
Uh, I wouldn't call it ridiculous.
Um, irrational.

Okay.

Maybe, um, you know, it wasn't a cry for help, it was just,
it was an expression of gratitude.
Um, an apology in advance, I guess.
Um, yeah, it wasn't ridiculous becauseit was, it was relevant at the time.

(01:28:26):
Uh, it was heartfelt and,and it wasn't a cry for help.
It was, it was authentic.
Um, the decision, again, selfishbecause it was only me I was thinking
of, you know, like that that decisionwould've been to alleviate my own pain.
Mm. Um, and, and situation.

(01:28:47):
But it, like you said, it would'vetransferred it to someone else.
So by definition, a selfish decision.
Um, yeah.
I, I mean, I think you, you can ask prettymuch anyone what they felt when they were
selfless, like what sort of feelings theyhad when they did something selfless.

(01:29:09):
They can recall a self selflessexperience, something they did
to, to help someone else withoutany benefit to themselves.
Um, I. Uh, in my experience,that's always a gratifying feeling.
It's always gratifying to sacrificefor someone else to, to do something
for someone else, um, is a,

is a rewarding thing.
So, yeah, I agree.
I, I think that mentality of, uh,everyone likes to use it, well, I gotta,
I gotta take care of me first, right?
Mm-hmm.
Um, it's just like that airplane,uh, you know, airbags come out, gotta
get your own airbag on, take care ofyourself so you can take care of others.
Right?
Well, I think people take that analogytoo far and sometimes there's a lot

(01:29:56):
of value in helping somebody else, andyou'll re this isn't an airbag analogy.
I'm not just taking care of me first.
If I can help take care of you, I allof a sudden start feeling, oh, geez,
we both got something outta that one.
Right.
Well, you have

purpose.

Right?

Right.
And you're, I mean, uh,again, I lost, I lost the.
It was a really, I promise all theviewers, it would've been an epiphany.
It was a fantastic thought that Ijust had that just flew outta my head.
Um,
yeah.
Hopefully it'll come back to me, but, um,

so I should watch my words.
Uh, when I say, when you look back on theletter, was it, uh, ridiculous and I guess
I, I should have, uh, left that open-endedand asked what your thoughts were.
When you look back on that, I don't, forone second, think it would be ridiculous.
Mm-hmm.
But I would think that looking backwith a sober second thought this
time, you'd say, what was I thinking?

Yeah.
I, I, I took that to mean you wereasking if I regretted it right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I don't regret that exercise.
What I regret was the selfishness.
Um.
Yeah, you were, there's, sorry.
Um, you were talking about howpeople take it too far to be Yes.
To look after yourself first.
The thought that I had on that was this,there's this whole movement, like you

(01:31:16):
see it all over the place, especially,um, like single women on social media.
Mm-hmm.
Talking about self-love.
I see that a lot.
Yes.
It's, it's like thismovement, you know, self-love.
If, if, if something isn't benefitingme, I'm cutting it outta my life.
Mm-hmm.
Um, where's your purpose?

Yeah.

Like what if, if you're, if your only purpose is looking
after yourself, that's not purpose.
Like you're, our, ourpurpose is in community.
Our purpose is in supportingpeople that need it.
Um, yeah.
You know, I think, I think alot of it is just terminology.
It's verbiage.
Um, people, self-love is a good thing.

(01:31:55):
Sure.
Self-centeredness is not, and sometimesself-centeredness is labeled as self-love.
And so people embrace it.
Just like a lot of other things in, insociety these days that people place
a, you know, rainbows and daisies Sure.
Sunshine and butterflies label onsomething, suddenly it becomes acceptable.
Mm. Um, but it doesn't change thereality of what that thing is.

(01:32:19):
And, and it's the same,same with self-centeredness.
You know, like there's a fine line.
It's important to, it's important tolook after yourself, but it's just as
important to look after other peopleand be available and, and step up.
Um, because it's fulfilling.
Like, it, it gives you, it's rewarding.

(01:32:40):
It, it is self-love to help other people.

I think that's a. A very good distinction.
You were put on medication.

Mm-hmm.

And you took yourself off that medication?
Cold Turkey.
Yeah.
How long were you on it for?

About four, four years.

That'd be for the major depressive?
Probably SSRI or SI Anxiety.
Yeah.

Okay.
Yeah, there were two, two orthree meds on he pretty heavy
doses and I took everything Ihad and flushed it on the toilet.

When?
Right.

Immediately following?
No, no, it was sometime after.
Okay.
Yeah, it was part of the process for me.
Um, yeah, I had moved at that stage,so I know it was a while later.
Okay.
And yeah, I just, I just flushed all ofit and it was, I would not recommend that.
I would recommend that you sort of.
Talk to your doctor, wean yourselfoff of it, like do it the right way.

(01:33:40):
Um, but for me, thatwas, that was what I did.
I just flushed it and I was like, no,I'm, I'm dealing with this myself.
I've got the agency, I've, I'vegot, I've got the reins in my mind.

Hmm.

I'm not gonna allow my thoughts to dictate, to me, I'm not
gonna allow medication to, to alter mypersonality and my, my frame of mind.
Uh, I got this.
So, and I did, you know, I, for a week orso, I had little electric jolts going up
my spine and other withdrawal symptoms.
But, but it was a smart choice for me.
Okay.

(01:34:12):
Um, because it, it was me.
It was, I'm the one that, that handledthe, the struggles I was having.
Not, not the medication.
Like I didn't, I didn't want to crutch.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I wanted to face it head on.
Mm-hmm.
And yeah, I mean, like we talked aboutbefore, a lot of people take, um.

(01:34:34):
Well, not prognosis, but um,diagnosis as a life sentence.

Yeah.
Yeah.
And they wear it,

they surrender themselves to that.
This is my reality.
I'm, I have anxiety, I have depression.
Yeah.
I have PTSD, I have whatever.
Ah, you, you don't have to keep it.
You're feeling it.
Sure.
Yeah.
You're feeling it.
It's to help you identify whatit is you're going through.

Right.

Um, but you, you don't have to carry that your whole life.
You, you ev I, I'm a firm believer.
I'm sure there are expertsout there that'll disagree.
I'm a firm believer that everyonehas the ability to take the reins
of their thoughts, to not allowtheir thoughts to dictate to them.
To, to start filtering out thenegative and shift their mindset.

Mm-hmm.
I said something similar.
I was asked to give a talk for auniversity in California by a doctor
for his class, and I gave a talkand, uh, the doctor pointed at a few
things that said, okay, yeah, okay.
Maybe not everybody.
Right.
There's always gonna be people whocome from, um, or severely disabled

(01:35:38):
who, uh, won't be able to, uh,control certain things in the same
way that perhaps I'm relaying.
Fair enough.
The medication thing wasanother interesting one.
I think that medication canbe an important tool mm-hmm.
For somebody who's incrisis for a quick stop gap.

(01:35:59):
And unfortunately, uh, it isn't, Idon't see it always used that way.
Uh, medication's supposed to be somethingthat's used in conjunction with a
lifestyle change, finding purpose, uh,uh, exercise, diet, all of these other
things that kind of go along with it.
And then you wean off and, and go forward.
I look at our medical system.

(01:36:21):
I was given my doctor hell a while ago.
I was like, why don'tyou just like my knee?
What the hell's wrong?
Send me in for imaging.
Let's figure out what's going on here.
And like, I don't want to take medication.
I don't want to up thesedifferent pills for the pain.
Let's just figure out what thepain is and let's address that.
Right?

Yeah.
Yeah.

He says, well, that's not how we're taught.
I'm like, what do you mean?
He says, well, we're, we'retaught to address a symptom.
If there's no more symptom thanthe problem solved, I says, so
does that mean like I gotta.
What to take these antiinflammants for myknee for the rest of my life so that they
get rid of that symptom and well, yeah.
I said that's, that's not anapproach that makes sense to me.

(01:36:57):
Right.
Yeah.
And I think that same approach is beingused often with mental health problems.
Oh.
It's not, it's not showing the symptom.
And after a while the body adapts tothe medication and, and then they're
prescribing a higher dosage or a differenttype so that they can look at these
symptoms and the meds will have theirown symptoms that go along with that.
Yeah.
And then they sub, they subscribe

things to deal with

those symptoms.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it, and it's a bit ofan endless cycle, I think.
Um, I think people have way more personalagency then they're led to belief.
Mm-hmm.
I think there's a reason why there's alearned helplessness within society, and
I think the more people that can adopt.
Ownership mindset, like what you'retalking about, and realize the level of

(01:37:41):
control that they have, even over smallthings in their life, which will grow
into bigger, uh, the more they realizemaybe they don't really have problems,
maybe their environment needs to change.
Maybe what they have is actually a gift.
Right.
Just a different way of looking at it.

Yep.
Absolutely.

Is there anything that we haven't talked about
that we should be talking about?

Probably a lot.
I think there is.
I'm sure I'll, I'm sure I'll thinkback and, you know, like think, oh,
I wish I'd told this story about thelion or the elephant or whatever.
And you have a story abouta lion in the elephant.
Oh yeah.
I've got, I've got tons of stories.
Um, yeah, I'm sure there arelots of things that'll come
to mind, but I'm, yeah, you

can't cover everything.
So it is funny, uh, the elephant one,I remember years ago, I think it was in
my early twenties, and I saw this, um.
There's a company, a buddy says,oh, you gotta check this one.
Oh, they'll teach you how tobe a businessman without having
to go through business school.
And so you're going through thesedifferent exercises and, and uh, some

(01:38:40):
of 'em are like, what do you wanna do?
I'm like, I kinda wanna ride an elephant.
I think that'd be cool.
So I'm writing this stuff down, right?
And anyways, I got filed away.
I don't know where years later someone'sasking in a, a more official capacity.
Well, do you have any business plans?
I'm like, well, not really like anywork event, well, I got this stuff
and he is looking through this.
I wanna ride an elephant, Travis.
This isn't business plan.

(01:39:01):
It's like, all right, fine.
Yeah.
And, and you do work a lotof work trying to help people
who are, um, victims of abuse.

Yeah.
I mean that True haven is stillrelatively speaking in its infancy.
Um, but it's a fantastic.
Cause mm-hmm.
Uh, it's something thatI'm very passionate about.
I've, I've, I think, I mean, it'sa, it's a multiplicity of, of, um,
contributing factors that have,that sort of made me that way.

(01:39:32):
Um, my dad, you know, my dad's like a,he's just a solid man, you know, he, he
raised me with a respect, um, for womenand, and respect for wildlife and animals.
Mm. Um, and I, my experience in boardingschool, being bullied, seeing other
people sort of victimized, um, growingup in Africa, you know, some of the stuff

(01:39:58):
you see there, people, the abuse, somepeople go through, and the hardship.
And, um, I guess having a, havinghad somewhat of a unique, um,
perspective and view into, um.
Hu humanity and the, the common themesthat carry across different races and

(01:40:21):
creeds and cultures and, um, the fact thatpeople hurt no matter what color they are.

Sure.

Uh, it just, there's a, there's a level of compassion
there, and for women, for animals,for other people, for people in, in
different difficult circumstances.
And being able to, um, being able touse my skillset, um, that I've, you
know, partly I was born with part,part natural ability, part training.

(01:40:49):
Like there's a lot of training thatI've gone through over the years
for different jobs, different,um, positions I've filled, um,
that I'm able to bring to bear.
And, um, the ability to, to remaincomposed in the face of someone
that's red and angry and screamingand thinks they're, you know, like
they're, they're, they can take anyone.

(01:41:10):
Um, I, I. Being able to bring thatto a cir, a circumstance, a situation
where someone's in fear for their lifeor the fear for their kids' lives.
And, um, and sort of, it'salmost like bio osmosis.
You convey some of that, uh, confidenceand, and, um, calmness to people

(01:41:31):
that are going through, um, crisisand, and being threatened by someone
who's really just a big coward.
Mm-hmm.
Um, that's really rewarding for me.
So.
Yeah, being able to mentor, same thing.
Um, being able to mentor people thatare, that are facing adversity that are
in their darkest hour, that, that don'tknow where to turn, don't know who to

(01:41:52):
trust, to, to be authentic with and exposetheir, you know, the things they're not
the most proud of about their lives.
Um, you know, I'm, I may not havea lot to, to bring to bear in terms
of financial resources and that kindof thing, but I do have experiences.
I do have an idea of what a,um, shifting your paradigm,

(01:42:13):
shifting your mindset can do.
And I love to be able to, toimpart that with other people.
And in the process, itbuilds a relationship.
Mm. Uh, builds the kind of relationshipsthat show up at your door and knock on
your window and when you need it the most.
So, um, yeah.
And it gives me purpose.
So, yeah, I, I, I love being able tobe involved with those kinds of causes.

Well, Heath, I'm gonna put links in the description to your
social media so people can find a wayto contact you Yeah, if they wanted
to, and as well as to True Haven,so they can see those resources.
Thank you very much for sharing yourstory on the Silver Pole Podcast, and I
really appreciate coming here to do that.

(01:42:57):
I really enjoyed the conversation.

I did too.
Thank you very much, Travis.
It's an honor.

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