December 2, 2025 • 20 mins
We explore how simulation and VR turn abstract lessons into action, helping students build clinical judgment through safe mistakes, clear feedback, and repeatable practice. Dr. Stephanie Justice shares practical setup tips, leadership lessons, and a realistic roadmap for immersive learning.
• simulation as a safe space to learn and fail
• debriefing to build clinical judgment and confidence
• VR for repetition, scale, and AI-driven feedback
• hygiene, battery life, and hardware management
• staffing models with asynchronous labs and student workers
• breakthrough student moments in high fidelity and VR
• leadership growth through NLN’s program
• the future with mixed reality and better analytics
• practical advice for starting and iterating
• wellness uses of headsets beyond patient care
Be sure to check them out at xrenegades.com or on LinkedIn
Visit us at www.innovativesimsolutions.com
Be sure to hit that like and subscribe button so you never miss an episode
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Disclaimer/ XRenages Ad/ in (00:00):
The views and opinions expressed in
this program are those of thespeakers and do not necessarily
reflect the opinions orpositions of anyone at
Innovative Sim Solutions or oursponsors.
This episode of Innovative SimSolutions is proudly sponsored
by X Renegades, your trustedpartner in immersive training
and simulation.
(00:20):
At X Renegades, we supporthospitals, universities, and
training institutions to buildthe right XR ecosystem from the
ground up.
We're your one-stop shop forselecting the best hardware,
software, and applications topower a seamless, efficient, and
future-ready SimLab.
Whether you're launching abrand new XR program or
expanding your existing lab, ourteams guide you through every
(00:44):
step from evaluation andprocurement to setup, training,
and ongoing support.
Our mission is simple.
Make immersive simulation easy,scalable, and impactful.
And don't forget to check outour brand new show, the XR-RX
Podcast, where we break down thelatest in extended reality,
simulation technology, andwhat's shaping the future of
(01:05):
healthcare and education.
To learn more or to connectwith our team, visit us at
XRenegades.com or reach outdirectly on LinkedIn.
Welcome to the Sim Cafe, apodcast produced by the team at
Innovative Sim Solutions, editedby Shelley Hauser.
Join our host, Deb Tauber, andco-host Jerrod Jeffries, as they
(01:30):
sit down with subject matterexperts from across the globe to
reimagine clinical educationand the use of simulation.
So pour yourself a cup ofrelaxation, sit back, tune in,
and learn something new from TheSim Cafe.
Deb Tauber (01:56):
Welcome to another episode of The Sim Cafe.
Today I'm here with Dr.
Stephanie Justice fromIntellect.
Prior to this, she was at OhioState University College of
Nursing.
She's a simulation and virtualreality education expert who's
all about making nursinglearning more real, more
(02:17):
hands-on, and more meaningful.
Welcome, Dr.
Justice, and thank you forbeing a guest.
Now, before we dive intosimulation and innovation, why
don't you tell us a little bitmore about yourself?
Sure.
Dr. Stephanie Justice (02:31):
So I have been a nurse now, wow, 27
years, which boy, it went byfast.
And my background is in Istarted as a floor nurse on
pulmonary renal diabetic.
We were like a step-down unit.
I did clinical drug trials atOhio State in Nephrology and
benign hematology.
I also worked on a vascularsurgery step-down unit, but I
(02:52):
switched over to education backin 2009.
And I absolutely love it.
More fun.
I have uh been married for 28years.
I have one son and two dogsthat love to bark when I'm being
recorded.
Deb Tauber (03:09):
Hopefully they'll join in a little bit.
Maybe not.
They're loud.
What inspired you to go intonursing and then eventually into
nursing education?
Dr. Stephanie Justice (03:20):
Well, it's actually kind of a funny
story, you know, because Italked to people who are like, I
wanted to be a nurse since Iwas little.
And I really didn't know when Igraduated from high school.
So I kind of floundered arounda little bit.
And then I went to ColumbusState to one of our community
colleges, and I decided I wasgoing to be an EMT.
I was going to go be aparamedic.
And I took my first EMT courseand I loved it.
(03:42):
And we went into the hospitalat the end of it.
And we were in the ER.
And I was like, oh, I like thisbetter than like pushing people
up embankments and things, youknow?
And so I decided to go intonursing.
And I haven't looked backsince.
I mean, it's been a really goodchoice.
The education part is evenfunnier because when I was in
nursing school, I worked as alike a work study student in the
(04:04):
Sim Lab, which I guess backthen it was really called the
Skills Lab at Otterbein, used tobe college.
And uh I worked there and I metmy husband when I was in
college and I told him, I said,one day I want Trudy's job.
I did eventually get it.
I was the manager of that labfor four years, but it's kind of
funny because I was like, oh mygosh, this is like so cool.
Deb Tauber (04:27):
Yeah, it is so cool.
Now, on your personal pathway,you've become well known in the
simulation space.
What originally drew you intosimulation as a teaching
approach?
And what keeps you passionateabout it?
Dr. Stephanie Justice (04:41):
So I am one of those people who I can
sit in a lecture, I can read abook, and it does not click like
it does when I get my hands onsomething and I see and I do it.
I remember in nursing schoolseeing the pictures and learning
about peritoneal dialysis andsee that very flat image of the
two bags.
And then when I got my firstjob after I passed the NCLEX and
(05:04):
I saw the PD setup the firsttime and actually got my hands
on it, I swear you could haveseen that light bulb in
Cleveland.
And I live in Columbus.
So, you know, like it justclicked.
I just got it.
And I just remember those werethe things I got the best was
when I got to do it or see it ortouch it or experience.
And so for me, that's where thesimulation part comes in,
(05:25):
because the more experience, themore chances we give our
students and our nurses even,just how much better they are
and how much easier it is forpeople like me to retain what
we're learning.
Deb Tauber (05:36):
And it's very obvious that you're passionate,
very, very passionate aboutthis.
Now, for simulation andpractice, for people who might
not be as familiar with howsimulation works, how would you
describe the role simulationplays in preparing nursing
students for real clinicalexperiences?
Dr. Stephanie Justice (05:54):
So, my favorite part about simulation
for nursing students is it's theone place I can let them be the
nurse before they're ready tobe the nurse, where they can
learn and make mistakes, or theycan have a great day and
actually do things right.
But you can't put them in thehospital and be like, I hope it
goes well and you don't hurtanybody.
But in sim, they can go in andit's a great place to figure
(06:16):
out, hey what what do you know?
What did I actually knowexactly that I was doing?
What do I need to work on?
Like, what was I confused?
Or what mistake did I make?
Because we learn more when wemake mistakes.
I mean, if everything goes 100%perfect, did you learn anything
new?
Well, no.
But you can't remember how togive the medication, or you're
not sure what that sound is,once you, you know, actually get
(06:39):
to go through and have thatdebriefing and learn what you
should have done, it reallyhelps with kind of cementing
that knowledge.
And then especially if you canrepeat it, repeat the same.
Deb Tauber (06:50):
And I would challenge that in just the way
that a lot of times theselearners don't even know what
they're doing right.
And unless you point out whatthey are doing right, they might
not do it again.
Dr. Stephanie Justi (07:01):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And it's so hard.
I mean, in the hospital,obviously, I'm not going to,
I've been a clinical instructor.
I'm not going to let them go inand just be like, good luck.
You have to be sure they'redoing it right.
You know, I mean, patients'lives are at stake.
In simulation, we have resetbuttons.
That's what I always say.
We have a reset button, and Iknow they'll come back.
Unless you pour water on acomputer, you know, it'll come
(07:23):
back.
Deb Tauber (07:25):
I think I'd come back if you were my teacher as
well.
You you create a verypsychologically safe
environment.
As it should be, right?
Dr. Stephanie Justice (07:34):
The safe to make a mistake.
Deb Tauber (07:37):
Yes, yes.
Now, VR and immersive tech.
You've been involved inbringing virtual reality and
extended reality into thecurriculum, which is exciting
and very, very forward thinking.
What challenges in nursingeducation does a VR help solve?
And what surprised you mostalong the way?
Dr. Stephanie Justice (07:57):
So one of the things it really, I think
it really can help solve.
And it sort of depends on howyou put it into your curriculum
and how your staffing is.
I mean, there's a lot offactors that go into it, but it
really lets you do morerepetition.
For example, the company I workfor, we're going to have
multiplayer coming out, butright now it's individual
person.
And you can repeat the sim asmany times as you want, and it's
(08:19):
not facilitated.
So it's AI-driven, AI-graded,AI conversation, and you can do
it over and over and overwithout needing the full sim
lab.
Because that's one of the bigdrawbacks I always saw with High
Fidelity SIM.
I've never been to a schoolthat had enough space, staffing,
simulators, and time.
I mean, the time is probablyone of the biggest ones to just
(08:42):
repeat sims as students want to.
Whereas in the VR space, I havethree headsets sitting out like
right here.
And I can get into thoseanytime I want and redo a sim.
Deb Tauber (08:53):
Yeah.
Now I was able to watch yourpresentation for the AACN and
you talked about some of thechallenges as far as keeping the
headsets clean.
Why don't you share some ofthose things with our listeners
today?
I thought that was a veryenlightening uh conversation
that you shared.
Dr. Stephanie Justice (09:10):
Yeah.
So that is one of thechallenges because, you know,
obviously they're going to beshared between different people,
and you want to make sure thatyou're not passing anything, you
know, back and forth.
One of the drawbacks with theMetaQuest headsets, which I
mean, which is what I have here,what I use all the time, is as
they are purchased, they havekind of like a foam around your
face that touches your skin.
(09:31):
Well, that soaks up makeup andsweat.
So I always replace them withthe ones that have silicone
because you can wipe thesilicone, you can scrub the
silicone.
When I was at Ohio State, wealways use Lysol wipes or Clorox
wipes, you know, nice cleaningwipe on the headset, especially
on that silicone, and clean thelenses with like a regular lens
(09:51):
wipe.
There are the blue light boxes,the UV light, but you do have
to watch where any straps layacross.
Cause if the head strap isacross part of that silicone, it
doesn't clean under it.
So we would always kind ofdouble clean and make sure
everything was wiped down, driedin between.
Because I know I take mine offand it's, I think it's classic
ivory, I think is my color thatit will be when I take it off.
(10:14):
And I wouldn't want to stickthat on someone else's face.
Deb Tauber (10:18):
Good what other tips do you have?
That's a good tip for people.
Dr. Stephanie Justice (10:23):
That's a that's that's one of my big
ones.
Another one is to always makesure you're keeping them charged
and have extra batteriesbecause they make these cheap
little ones that just pop righton the side and will give you a
couple extra hours becausethere's nothing worse than a
headset dying in the middle ofsomeone's simulation.
Deb Tauber (10:38):
Yeah.
Dr. Stephanie Justice (10:38):
I always say that's a good way to make a
student mad, right?
Yes, they're halfway through.
We're almost done, and it juststops.
Deb Tauber (10:44):
Yes, and to challenge their confidence a
little bit.
Yeah.
Dr. Stephanie Justice (10:49):
The other thing I think is really a
really good tip is one of thechallenges in a VR lab is
staffing and how you're going torun it.
And Ohio State did anasynchronous lab.
So students signed up for timethat they would come in.
There was a lab manager, and weused a lot of student workers
to help get people in and out.
And that made it a lot morecost effective because the
(11:11):
simulation programs that we usedran on their own.
They weren't facilitated.
So we didn't have to have afull faculty member in there
constantly.
Deb Tauber (11:19):
Yeah, I enjoyed using student workers when I oh,
they're wonderful.
Yeah.
They well, the other part of itis that they sometimes are more
effective with their peersbecause they're less
intimidating than a quoteunquote professor or doctor.
Absolutely.
Dr. Stephanie Justice (11:38):
We used to joke that if someone gave
them too much trouble, theywould have Dr.
Justice come talk to them justbecause they never knew if
they'd have me in a class.
So I had carried a differentweight.
But I also didn't want to, Idon't want to intimidate them
because this is a safe spacewhere you can make mistakes and
you should learn.
Like I'm not judging you ifyou're not sure what to do.
Right.
Deb Tauber (11:58):
Right.
Dr. Stephanie Justice (11:59):
Yes.
Deb Tauber (12:00):
Now let's tell um, we know about some of the things
that you're doing.
Let's hear about the human sideof your work.
Can you share a moment when yousaw students' confidence or
understanding shift during asimulation or immersive
experience?
Dr. Stephanie Justice (12:14):
Yeah, there's there's two that come to
mind.
And the first one was in a highfidelity sim.
It was back when I worked atOtterbine.
And we used to do this sim, andit was just kind of a mess.
It was a critical patient andnothing was like set up right.
You know, we didn't connect thechest tube, we didn't connect
the oxygen, and we wrote theorders very jumbled, you know,
(12:34):
just to kind of stress them out.
And I had a student who was notstrong at all, barely passing
courses, you know, very low C.
And he was my primary nurse.
Oh my gosh, he blew me away.
He turned to his team and he'slike, I don't care about their
foley.
They're not breathing right.
I mean, he just totally tookover.
(12:56):
And I just remember being soexcited.
And I talked with him laterabout how impressed I was.
And he's like, I'm just aterrible test taker.
And I'm like, you are gonna bean awesome nurse.
And I wouldn't have seen thatjust looking at his C.
But I can tell you that I wouldlike for him to be my nurse by
watching his performance.
And that one just like blew meaway.
(13:16):
He went and called his mom thatnight and told her how good he
did in Sim.
And I just remember being like,yeah, this is why we do this,
right?
Because that was exciting.
Deb Tauber (13:25):
Yeah.
Dr. Stephanie Justice (13:26):
And then I have another one that's really
funny because it's it's withVR.
And it was the first year westarted the program.
And we had a student who wasnot excited to do VR and came in
with just kind of this, youknow, very irritated attitude.
You know what I'm talkingabout.
And put them in the in theheadset, and it was a febrile
(13:47):
seizure simulation.
And no matter what you did,about two minutes in, the
patient went into a seizure.
And as soon as the patientstarted seizing, he didn't know
what to do.
Like he was not sure whatactions to take next.
And like just the whole bodyposture changed.
You have to excuse my language.
He goes, Holy shit, she'sseizing three times because he
(14:11):
didn't know what to do.
And we also had to have aconversation about appropriate
language in front of you knowfamilies and children.
But it was so funny because itwent from being this is stupid
to oh my gosh, it felt so realbecause of the immersion of the
VR.
That he was just so he he wasdidn't know.
It was like, I don't know whatI'm supposed to do.
And I'm like, Well, this iswhen you finish the sim, you
(14:33):
read your feedback, you gothrough and you try it again and
did it three times.
And the attitude change was somuch fun to watch.
Yeah, yeah.
Talk about learning, right?
Right.
Because nobody jumped in tohelp him.
Like we wouldn't clinical.
I'm not gonna let him flounderthere.
Deb Tauber (14:54):
No, that's a great point.
And that's a great point abouthow virtual reality can be
different than an actualsimulation.
Absolutely.
Dr. Stephanie Justice (15:02):
Yeah.
Deb Tauber (15:04):
You were selected for the National League for
Nursing's National LeadershipDevelopment Program for
Simulation Educators.
Tell us a little bit about thatand what did that experience
change the way you lead, teach,or think about innovation?
How did that impact you?
Dr. Stephanie Justice (15:21):
You know, the funny thing is, is when I
saw the call to apply, I hadjust finished or was just
finishing my doctorate.
And I'm one of those people,there's a lot of imposter
syndrome that goes on.
Damn I good enough.
Do I when are they gonna cometake my degree away?
Deb Tauber (15:35):
You know, that's you and able sister.
Yeah.
Dr. Stephanie Justice (15:38):
I think everybody struggles with that.
And it was so interesting beingin the with the NLN because
first off, it's a competitivething.
So you actually get selected.
That was pretty neat.
But they really worked a lot onthat confidence.
Like we did one of my favoritethings, and I wasn't sure if I
was gonna love it, to be honest,when we first started.
But we met with a mentor whohelped coach us through.
(16:01):
For me, being called Dr.
Justice felt really weird,especially at that time.
And I was like, no, no, justcall me Steph.
And she was like, No, youearned that degree.
And I was like, I did earn thatdegree.
I worked really hard to getthese degrees.
But just having that kind ofreinforcement and the group, I
mean, I still talk to people Iwent through the program with.
(16:25):
And so that's just kind ofamazing because you get this
very small core group that youkind of just clicked with.
And so you get this support,and they're also looking for
better ways to do everything.
So that just leads toinnovation.
And I think that just makes itso much fun.
Yeah.
Very cool.
(16:45):
I highly recommend it.
What year did you do that?
Um, I finished it in 22.
Deb Tauber (16:51):
Okay.
Looking into the future, wheredo you see simulation and
immersive learning headed in thenext five years?
And what advice would you giveeducators who want to start
innovating?
Dr. Stephanie Justice (17:06):
So I think simulation, I I think, I
mean, I love virtual reality.
I think that's gonna continueto grow.
But I think in the next fiveyears, I think we're gonna see a
lot more mixed reality where wecan maybe put a headset and
actually make our mannequinshave an expression so that you
could see it.
Of course, headsets are gonnahave to get a little bit more
comfortable, lighter, that typeof thing to actually have that
(17:28):
happen.
But I think it's just going tocontinue to grow.
And AI is going to do a lotbecause of the type of feedback
and analytics that we canactually give to the students,
like on their performance andtheir communication.
As far as advice for faculty orfor nurse leaders, you know,
(17:48):
educators in the hospital, isdon't be afraid to try it
because you're gonna make somemistakes.
Because boy, I sure did when wefirst started.
I thought tech natives, they're20.
They'll pick up the headsets.
They're not gamers.
My son's a gamer, man.
He was just like two secondslater throwing like ninja stars
and dodging beer bottles.
Our nursing students, like, Idon't understand how to hold
(18:10):
this.
And so I'm always reminded it'sthe I'm gonna totally mess the
quote up, but I think it wasThomas Edison who said, I
haven't failed, I just found10,000 ways that didn't work.
Yep.
And I love that quote becausethat goes with the innovation,
right?
Stuff that we did that firstsemester, boy, did we learn
really fast that that wasn't theway to do it.
And if everything goes perfect,I think you learn more from
(18:33):
your failures and yoursuccesses, right?
Because if if you struggled,you really have to work through
it.
You have to find a new way tomake it work.
And I think as this simulationspace is continuing to grow, I
think you're gonna have studentsexpecting to have that
combination of the high fidelityhands-on and the virtual
(18:54):
reality, which I think isphenomenal for clinical
judgment, critical thinking.
And I see that being almostbecoming an expectation.
Deb Tauber (19:02):
Yeah, I would agree.
Do you have any final wordsthat you want to leave our
listeners with or any questionsfor me?
Dr. Stephanie Justice (19:09):
I guess my last thing that I would give
to them would be if you haven'ttried VR yet, you should.
Just see what it's all about.
You don't have to do patientcare.
And don't forget that thoseheadsets are also good for other
things like stress reliefmeditation.
We can actually work on some ofthat mental health in addition
to the SIMS with the samehardware.
You just need differentsoftware on it.
Deb Tauber (19:31):
Yeah.
And if our listeners want toget a hold of you, where can
they get a hold of you,Stephanie?
Dr. Stephanie Justice (19:36):
So, well, they can always reach out to me
on LinkedIn or my email at workis is actually super easy
because it's justices atintellect.com and that's
I-n-t-u-l-e-c-t.
Deb Tauber (19:50):
All right.
Well, thank you so much.
Yeah, thank you.
Dr. Stephanie Justice (19:54):
Thanks for having me.
Deb Tauber (19:55):
Thank you.
Disclaimer/ XRenages Ad/ (19:56):
Happy simulating.
Thanks to X Renegades forsponsoring this week's program.
Be sure to check them out atXRenegades.com or on LinkedIn.
Thanks for joining us hereat The Sim Cafe.
(20:17):
We hope you enjoyed.
Visit us at www.innovativesimsolutions.com.
And be sure to hit that likeand subscribe button so you
never miss an episode.
Innovative Sim Solutions isyour one stop shop for your
simulation needs.
A turnkey solution.
The views and opinions expressed in
this program are those of thespeakers and do not necessarily
reflect the opinions orpositions of anyone at
Innovative Sim Solutions or oursponsors.
This episode of Innovative SimSolutions is proudly sponsored
by X Renegades, your trustedpartner in immersive training
and simulation.
(00:20):
At X Renegades, we supporthospitals, universities, and
training institutions to buildthe right XR ecosystem from the
ground up.
We're your one-stop shop forselecting the best hardware,
software, and applications topower a seamless, efficient, and
future-ready SimLab.
Whether you're launching abrand new XR program or
expanding your existing lab, ourteams guide you through every
(00:44):
step from evaluation andprocurement to setup, training,
and ongoing support.
Our mission is simple.
Make immersive simulation easy,scalable, and impactful.
And don't forget to check outour brand new show, the XR-RX
Podcast, where we break down thelatest in extended reality,
simulation technology, andwhat's shaping the future of
(01:05):
healthcare and education.
To learn more or to connectwith our team, visit us at
XRenegades.com or reach outdirectly on LinkedIn.
Welcome to the Sim Cafe, apodcast produced by the team at
Innovative Sim Solutions, editedby Shelley Hauser.
Join our host, Deb Tauber, andco-host Jerrod Jeffries, as they
(01:30):
sit down with subject matterexperts from across the globe to
reimagine clinical educationand the use of simulation.
So pour yourself a cup ofrelaxation, sit back, tune in,
and learn something new from TheSim Cafe.
Deb Tauber (01:56):
Welcome to another episode of The Sim Cafe.
Today I'm here with Dr.
Stephanie Justice fromIntellect.
Prior to this, she was at OhioState University College of
Nursing.
She's a simulation and virtualreality education expert who's
all about making nursinglearning more real, more
(02:17):
hands-on, and more meaningful.
Welcome, Dr.
Justice, and thank you forbeing a guest.
Now, before we dive intosimulation and innovation, why
don't you tell us a little bitmore about yourself?
Sure.
Dr. Stephanie Justice (02:31):
So I have been a nurse now, wow, 27
years, which boy, it went byfast.
And my background is in Istarted as a floor nurse on
pulmonary renal diabetic.
We were like a step-down unit.
I did clinical drug trials atOhio State in Nephrology and
benign hematology.
I also worked on a vascularsurgery step-down unit, but I
(02:52):
switched over to education backin 2009.
And I absolutely love it.
More fun.
I have uh been married for 28years.
I have one son and two dogsthat love to bark when I'm being
recorded.
Deb Tauber (03:09):
Hopefully they'll join in a little bit.
Maybe not.
They're loud.
What inspired you to go intonursing and then eventually into
nursing education?
Dr. Stephanie Justice (03:20):
Well, it's actually kind of a funny
story, you know, because Italked to people who are like, I
wanted to be a nurse since Iwas little.
And I really didn't know when Igraduated from high school.
So I kind of floundered arounda little bit.
And then I went to ColumbusState to one of our community
colleges, and I decided I wasgoing to be an EMT.
I was going to go be aparamedic.
And I took my first EMT courseand I loved it.
(03:42):
And we went into the hospitalat the end of it.
And we were in the ER.
And I was like, oh, I like thisbetter than like pushing people
up embankments and things, youknow?
And so I decided to go intonursing.
And I haven't looked backsince.
I mean, it's been a really goodchoice.
The education part is evenfunnier because when I was in
nursing school, I worked as alike a work study student in the
(04:04):
Sim Lab, which I guess backthen it was really called the
Skills Lab at Otterbein, used tobe college.
And uh I worked there and I metmy husband when I was in
college and I told him, I said,one day I want Trudy's job.
I did eventually get it.
I was the manager of that labfor four years, but it's kind of
funny because I was like, oh mygosh, this is like so cool.
Deb Tauber (04:27):
Yeah, it is so cool.
Now, on your personal pathway,you've become well known in the
simulation space.
What originally drew you intosimulation as a teaching
approach?
And what keeps you passionateabout it?
Dr. Stephanie Justice (04:41):
So I am one of those people who I can
sit in a lecture, I can read abook, and it does not click like
it does when I get my hands onsomething and I see and I do it.
I remember in nursing schoolseeing the pictures and learning
about peritoneal dialysis andsee that very flat image of the
two bags.
And then when I got my firstjob after I passed the NCLEX and
(05:04):
I saw the PD setup the firsttime and actually got my hands
on it, I swear you could haveseen that light bulb in
Cleveland.
And I live in Columbus.
So, you know, like it justclicked.
I just got it.
And I just remember those werethe things I got the best was
when I got to do it or see it ortouch it or experience.
And so for me, that's where thesimulation part comes in,
(05:25):
because the more experience, themore chances we give our
students and our nurses even,just how much better they are
and how much easier it is forpeople like me to retain what
we're learning.
Deb Tauber (05:36):
And it's very obvious that you're passionate,
very, very passionate aboutthis.
Now, for simulation andpractice, for people who might
not be as familiar with howsimulation works, how would you
describe the role simulationplays in preparing nursing
students for real clinicalexperiences?
Dr. Stephanie Justice (05:54):
So, my favorite part about simulation
for nursing students is it's theone place I can let them be the
nurse before they're ready tobe the nurse, where they can
learn and make mistakes, or theycan have a great day and
actually do things right.
But you can't put them in thehospital and be like, I hope it
goes well and you don't hurtanybody.
But in sim, they can go in andit's a great place to figure
(06:16):
out, hey what what do you know?
What did I actually knowexactly that I was doing?
What do I need to work on?
Like, what was I confused?
Or what mistake did I make?
Because we learn more when wemake mistakes.
I mean, if everything goes 100%perfect, did you learn anything
new?
Well, no.
But you can't remember how togive the medication, or you're
not sure what that sound is,once you, you know, actually get
(06:39):
to go through and have thatdebriefing and learn what you
should have done, it reallyhelps with kind of cementing
that knowledge.
And then especially if you canrepeat it, repeat the same.
Deb Tauber (06:50):
And I would challenge that in just the way
that a lot of times theselearners don't even know what
they're doing right.
And unless you point out whatthey are doing right, they might
not do it again.
Dr. Stephanie Justi (07:01):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And it's so hard.
I mean, in the hospital,obviously, I'm not going to,
I've been a clinical instructor.
I'm not going to let them go inand just be like, good luck.
You have to be sure they'redoing it right.
You know, I mean, patients'lives are at stake.
In simulation, we have resetbuttons.
That's what I always say.
We have a reset button, and Iknow they'll come back.
Unless you pour water on acomputer, you know, it'll come
(07:23):
back.
Deb Tauber (07:25):
I think I'd come back if you were my teacher as
well.
You you create a verypsychologically safe
environment.
As it should be, right?
Dr. Stephanie Justice (07:34):
The safe to make a mistake.
Deb Tauber (07:37):
Yes, yes.
Now, VR and immersive tech.
You've been involved inbringing virtual reality and
extended reality into thecurriculum, which is exciting
and very, very forward thinking.
What challenges in nursingeducation does a VR help solve?
And what surprised you mostalong the way?
Dr. Stephanie Justice (07:57):
So one of the things it really, I think
it really can help solve.
And it sort of depends on howyou put it into your curriculum
and how your staffing is.
I mean, there's a lot offactors that go into it, but it
really lets you do morerepetition.
For example, the company I workfor, we're going to have
multiplayer coming out, butright now it's individual
person.
And you can repeat the sim asmany times as you want, and it's
(08:19):
not facilitated.
So it's AI-driven, AI-graded,AI conversation, and you can do
it over and over and overwithout needing the full sim
lab.
Because that's one of the bigdrawbacks I always saw with High
Fidelity SIM.
I've never been to a schoolthat had enough space, staffing,
simulators, and time.
I mean, the time is probablyone of the biggest ones to just
(08:42):
repeat sims as students want to.
Whereas in the VR space, I havethree headsets sitting out like
right here.
And I can get into thoseanytime I want and redo a sim.
Deb Tauber (08:53):
Yeah.
Now I was able to watch yourpresentation for the AACN and
you talked about some of thechallenges as far as keeping the
headsets clean.
Why don't you share some ofthose things with our listeners
today?
I thought that was a veryenlightening uh conversation
that you shared.
Dr. Stephanie Justice (09:10):
Yeah.
So that is one of thechallenges because, you know,
obviously they're going to beshared between different people,
and you want to make sure thatyou're not passing anything, you
know, back and forth.
One of the drawbacks with theMetaQuest headsets, which I
mean, which is what I have here,what I use all the time, is as
they are purchased, they havekind of like a foam around your
face that touches your skin.
(09:31):
Well, that soaks up makeup andsweat.
So I always replace them withthe ones that have silicone
because you can wipe thesilicone, you can scrub the
silicone.
When I was at Ohio State, wealways use Lysol wipes or Clorox
wipes, you know, nice cleaningwipe on the headset, especially
on that silicone, and clean thelenses with like a regular lens
(09:51):
wipe.
There are the blue light boxes,the UV light, but you do have
to watch where any straps layacross.
Cause if the head strap isacross part of that silicone, it
doesn't clean under it.
So we would always kind ofdouble clean and make sure
everything was wiped down, driedin between.
Because I know I take mine offand it's, I think it's classic
ivory, I think is my color thatit will be when I take it off.
(10:14):
And I wouldn't want to stickthat on someone else's face.
Deb Tauber (10:18):
Good what other tips do you have?
That's a good tip for people.
Dr. Stephanie Justice (10:23):
That's a that's that's one of my big
ones.
Another one is to always makesure you're keeping them charged
and have extra batteriesbecause they make these cheap
little ones that just pop righton the side and will give you a
couple extra hours becausethere's nothing worse than a
headset dying in the middle ofsomeone's simulation.
Deb Tauber (10:38):
Yeah.
Dr. Stephanie Justice (10:38):
I always say that's a good way to make a
student mad, right?
Yes, they're halfway through.
We're almost done, and it juststops.
Deb Tauber (10:44):
Yes, and to challenge their confidence a
little bit.
Yeah.
Dr. Stephanie Justice (10:49):
The other thing I think is really a
really good tip is one of thechallenges in a VR lab is
staffing and how you're going torun it.
And Ohio State did anasynchronous lab.
So students signed up for timethat they would come in.
There was a lab manager, and weused a lot of student workers
to help get people in and out.
And that made it a lot morecost effective because the
(11:11):
simulation programs that we usedran on their own.
They weren't facilitated.
So we didn't have to have afull faculty member in there
constantly.
Deb Tauber (11:19):
Yeah, I enjoyed using student workers when I oh,
they're wonderful.
Yeah.
They well, the other part of itis that they sometimes are more
effective with their peersbecause they're less
intimidating than a quoteunquote professor or doctor.
Absolutely.
Dr. Stephanie Justice (11:38):
We used to joke that if someone gave
them too much trouble, theywould have Dr.
Justice come talk to them justbecause they never knew if
they'd have me in a class.
So I had carried a differentweight.
But I also didn't want to, Idon't want to intimidate them
because this is a safe spacewhere you can make mistakes and
you should learn.
Like I'm not judging you ifyou're not sure what to do.
Right.
Deb Tauber (11:58):
Right.
Dr. Stephanie Justice (11:59):
Yes.
Deb Tauber (12:00):
Now let's tell um, we know about some of the things
that you're doing.
Let's hear about the human sideof your work.
Can you share a moment when yousaw students' confidence or
understanding shift during asimulation or immersive
experience?
Dr. Stephanie Justice (12:14):
Yeah, there's there's two that come to
mind.
And the first one was in a highfidelity sim.
It was back when I worked atOtterbine.
And we used to do this sim, andit was just kind of a mess.
It was a critical patient andnothing was like set up right.
You know, we didn't connect thechest tube, we didn't connect
the oxygen, and we wrote theorders very jumbled, you know,
(12:34):
just to kind of stress them out.
And I had a student who was notstrong at all, barely passing
courses, you know, very low C.
And he was my primary nurse.
Oh my gosh, he blew me away.
He turned to his team and he'slike, I don't care about their
foley.
They're not breathing right.
I mean, he just totally tookover.
(12:56):
And I just remember being soexcited.
And I talked with him laterabout how impressed I was.
And he's like, I'm just aterrible test taker.
And I'm like, you are gonna bean awesome nurse.
And I wouldn't have seen thatjust looking at his C.
But I can tell you that I wouldlike for him to be my nurse by
watching his performance.
And that one just like blew meaway.
(13:16):
He went and called his mom thatnight and told her how good he
did in Sim.
And I just remember being like,yeah, this is why we do this,
right?
Because that was exciting.
Deb Tauber (13:25):
Yeah.
Dr. Stephanie Justice (13:26):
And then I have another one that's really
funny because it's it's withVR.
And it was the first year westarted the program.
And we had a student who wasnot excited to do VR and came in
with just kind of this, youknow, very irritated attitude.
You know what I'm talkingabout.
And put them in the in theheadset, and it was a febrile
(13:47):
seizure simulation.
And no matter what you did,about two minutes in, the
patient went into a seizure.
And as soon as the patientstarted seizing, he didn't know
what to do.
Like he was not sure whatactions to take next.
And like just the whole bodyposture changed.
You have to excuse my language.
He goes, Holy shit, she'sseizing three times because he
(14:11):
didn't know what to do.
And we also had to have aconversation about appropriate
language in front of you knowfamilies and children.
But it was so funny because itwent from being this is stupid
to oh my gosh, it felt so realbecause of the immersion of the
VR.
That he was just so he he wasdidn't know.
It was like, I don't know whatI'm supposed to do.
And I'm like, Well, this iswhen you finish the sim, you
(14:33):
read your feedback, you gothrough and you try it again and
did it three times.
And the attitude change was somuch fun to watch.
Yeah, yeah.
Talk about learning, right?
Right.
Because nobody jumped in tohelp him.
Like we wouldn't clinical.
I'm not gonna let him flounderthere.
Deb Tauber (14:54):
No, that's a great point.
And that's a great point abouthow virtual reality can be
different than an actualsimulation.
Absolutely.
Dr. Stephanie Justice (15:02):
Yeah.
Deb Tauber (15:04):
You were selected for the National League for
Nursing's National LeadershipDevelopment Program for
Simulation Educators.
Tell us a little bit about thatand what did that experience
change the way you lead, teach,or think about innovation?
How did that impact you?
Dr. Stephanie Justice (15:21):
You know, the funny thing is, is when I
saw the call to apply, I hadjust finished or was just
finishing my doctorate.
And I'm one of those people,there's a lot of imposter
syndrome that goes on.
Damn I good enough.
Do I when are they gonna cometake my degree away?
Deb Tauber (15:35):
You know, that's you and able sister.
Yeah.
Dr. Stephanie Justice (15:38):
I think everybody struggles with that.
And it was so interesting beingin the with the NLN because
first off, it's a competitivething.
So you actually get selected.
That was pretty neat.
But they really worked a lot onthat confidence.
Like we did one of my favoritethings, and I wasn't sure if I
was gonna love it, to be honest,when we first started.
But we met with a mentor whohelped coach us through.
(16:01):
For me, being called Dr.
Justice felt really weird,especially at that time.
And I was like, no, no, justcall me Steph.
And she was like, No, youearned that degree.
And I was like, I did earn thatdegree.
I worked really hard to getthese degrees.
But just having that kind ofreinforcement and the group, I
mean, I still talk to people Iwent through the program with.
(16:25):
And so that's just kind ofamazing because you get this
very small core group that youkind of just clicked with.
And so you get this support,and they're also looking for
better ways to do everything.
So that just leads toinnovation.
And I think that just makes itso much fun.
Yeah.
Very cool.
(16:45):
I highly recommend it.
What year did you do that?
Um, I finished it in 22.
Deb Tauber (16:51):
Okay.
Looking into the future, wheredo you see simulation and
immersive learning headed in thenext five years?
And what advice would you giveeducators who want to start
innovating?
Dr. Stephanie Justice (17:06):
So I think simulation, I I think, I
mean, I love virtual reality.
I think that's gonna continueto grow.
But I think in the next fiveyears, I think we're gonna see a
lot more mixed reality where wecan maybe put a headset and
actually make our mannequinshave an expression so that you
could see it.
Of course, headsets are gonnahave to get a little bit more
comfortable, lighter, that typeof thing to actually have that
(17:28):
happen.
But I think it's just going tocontinue to grow.
And AI is going to do a lotbecause of the type of feedback
and analytics that we canactually give to the students,
like on their performance andtheir communication.
As far as advice for faculty orfor nurse leaders, you know,
(17:48):
educators in the hospital, isdon't be afraid to try it
because you're gonna make somemistakes.
Because boy, I sure did when wefirst started.
I thought tech natives, they're20.
They'll pick up the headsets.
They're not gamers.
My son's a gamer, man.
He was just like two secondslater throwing like ninja stars
and dodging beer bottles.
Our nursing students, like, Idon't understand how to hold
(18:10):
this.
And so I'm always reminded it'sthe I'm gonna totally mess the
quote up, but I think it wasThomas Edison who said, I
haven't failed, I just found10,000 ways that didn't work.
Yep.
And I love that quote becausethat goes with the innovation,
right?
Stuff that we did that firstsemester, boy, did we learn
really fast that that wasn't theway to do it.
And if everything goes perfect,I think you learn more from
(18:33):
your failures and yoursuccesses, right?
Because if if you struggled,you really have to work through
it.
You have to find a new way tomake it work.
And I think as this simulationspace is continuing to grow, I
think you're gonna have studentsexpecting to have that
combination of the high fidelityhands-on and the virtual
(18:54):
reality, which I think isphenomenal for clinical
judgment, critical thinking.
And I see that being almostbecoming an expectation.
Deb Tauber (19:02):
Yeah, I would agree.
Do you have any final wordsthat you want to leave our
listeners with or any questionsfor me?
Dr. Stephanie Justice (19:09):
I guess my last thing that I would give
to them would be if you haven'ttried VR yet, you should.
Just see what it's all about.
You don't have to do patientcare.
And don't forget that thoseheadsets are also good for other
things like stress reliefmeditation.
We can actually work on some ofthat mental health in addition
to the SIMS with the samehardware.
You just need differentsoftware on it.
Deb Tauber (19:31):
Yeah.
And if our listeners want toget a hold of you, where can
they get a hold of you,Stephanie?
Dr. Stephanie Justice (19:36):
So, well, they can always reach out to me
on LinkedIn or my email at workis is actually super easy
because it's justices atintellect.com and that's
I-n-t-u-l-e-c-t.
Deb Tauber (19:50):
All right.
Well, thank you so much.
Yeah, thank you.
Dr. Stephanie Justice (19:54):
Thanks for having me.
Deb Tauber (19:55):
Thank you.
Disclaimer/ XRenages Ad/ (19:56):
Happy simulating.
Thanks to X Renegades forsponsoring this week's program.
Be sure to check them out atXRenegades.com or on LinkedIn.
Thanks for joining us hereat The Sim Cafe.
(20:17):
We hope you enjoyed.
Visit us at www.innovativesimsolutions.com.
And be sure to hit that likeand subscribe button so you
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Innovative Sim Solutions isyour one stop shop for your
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