March 13, 2024 • 46 mins
When my dear friend BK stepped into the studio, the air crackled with the kind of energy only old friends can share. His eclectic background, from lock-picking to a keen mind for business development, set the stage for a conversation brimming with insights on how the subtleties of grace can enhance relationships and personal growth. Our dialogue spanned from the impact of grace in our daily interactions to its profound implications in the spiritual realm, marrying practicality with faith in an exploration designed to inspire and challenge our listeners.
Parenting is no easy task, and when tempered with grace, it becomes an art. I opened up about my own voyage through the highs and lows of raising children under the gentle guidance of grace-based principles. We dove into the heart of what it means to create a home where mistakes are not met with punishment but with understanding and connection. This raw and honest exchange shed light on the delicate interplay between discipline and grace, offering a fresh perspective on guiding our little ones to understand not just the house rules, but also the boundless love that mirrors our relationship with the divine.
As we wrapped up our series, BK and I honored the intimate and transformative power of home church communities. These gatherings are more than just meetings; they're a testament to the ways in which grace can thread through our lives, offering solace, strength, and space for personal growth. From the inclusion of children in worship to the embrace of technology, we celebrated the unique ways these communities become a breeding ground for a deeper spiritual connection. Join us as we thank BK for his invaluable contributions and tease the exciting future discussions about integrating faith in the workplace. This episode isn't just a listen; it's an invitation to journey with us in the continual discovery of grace.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome everyone to Simple Grace podcast.
My name is Sean Renzel, I'm theauthor of the book Simple Grace
and we're doing a bunch ofministry around the world
discipling people in the newcovenant of grace, and so this
podcast is just an opportunityfor me to have some
conversations with friends,enemies, people I meet.
(00:28):
Who knows who's going to be thenext guest, you never know but
today I'm very happy to bring inmy good good friend, benjamin
Martin.
He goes by BK.
So good afternoon evening toyou here, let's.
I'm going to set it up likethat.
Okay, we always get started byreading a verse, so I'm going to
(00:51):
read 2 Corinthians 9, 8, justto get our brains and our hearts
kind of moving in the directionof God's grace.
So let's read this it says andGod is able to make all grace
abound towards you that youalways, having all sufficiency
(01:11):
in all things, may have anabundance for every good work.
I love that verse because somepeople think that if you believe
in grace or teaching grace,that you're not concerned at all
about good works, and I find itactually grace.
The whole purpose of it is toproduce good works in our life
(01:34):
and and God wants us to do goodworks, but he doesn't want them
to do us to do it through ourflesh, through our own efforts.
He wants us to learn how totrust in him, depend on him,
through relationship with him.
We can.
We can do God's will.
We can be equipped to do God'swill.
Well, that brings me to BK.
(01:54):
Bk is a dear, dear friend ofmine.
We've been close ever since,just before I planted the church
in Denver, so that would be2013.
So, like 2012, ish time is whenwe got close.
So, bk, I'm going to, I'm goingto give you a moment to just
introduce yourself However yousee fit.
(02:15):
So tell me who you are, whatyou do, and then, and then we'll
kind of back up and do yourhistory after that.
But just give me a goodintroduction for yourself right
now.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
All right, I'm BK.
My mom always hated the name.
My full name is Benjamin.
As you said at the beginning,my mom always hated the name Ben
.
So growing up I started goingwith my initials because I
didn't want to write Benjamin onall my papers.
And I've been BK ever since.
So that's who I am.
I'm a bit of an eclectic weirdoI love.
(02:47):
My current obsessions are dartsand watching cricket and stuff
like that.
So, yep, I'm definitely bizarre, and that's the thing.
Gwai Sean and I were such goodfriends.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
I remember the last thing you were into was like
lock picking right, like lockpicking sport.
Yeah, so you're done with thatnow.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Yep, I moved on to darts.
I have a dart board downstairsnow that I throw darts at
whenever I get a chance, whichis pretty much every night,
because it's really easy to godownstairs and throw six, seven
darts.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
That's really cool.
That's cool.
What do you do for a living?
Speaker 2 (03:25):
So I work for a financial institution called Ent
Credit Union.
I'm a business developmentspecialist, so essentially what
I tell everybody is I don't doany actual work, I just show up
to events and look cute.
That's my entire job is to workevents and tell people how
great my company is.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
And are you good at it?
Speaker 2 (03:46):
I think I'm pretty good at it.
I like talking about people, Ilike relationships, I like
developing relationships, whichis a perfect segue to talk about
grace, because that's whatgrace is.
It's just a full onrelationship with God.
And I think one thing just tojump ahead a little bit One
thing that has always amazed meis how the lessons that I've
learned about how to have arelationship with God also apply
(04:10):
with how to have a relationshipwith people in my work, with
people in my family, whateverthat looks like.
So being able to take that andapply it in so many different
avenues has been amazing.
Grace has changed my life.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
That's really good Relationships.
It's funny because, as men,we're mystified when we learn
something about relationaltruths.
We're like, wow, I didn't haveany idea how these relationships
work.
Our wives you talk to women andthey're just so relationally
(04:49):
advanced.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
it seems like there was definitely many Sundays
after some of your sermons whereI'm an iron driving in a car
and I'm like, oh my gosh, didyou know that this was such a
realization?
Yeah, it was a really goodreminder, honey.
Really good.
I'm like no this was mindblowing.
I can't believe it.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
All right, well, let's get some history here.
So you and I served together inchurch for a decade, which was
awesome, but I want to knowabout the before that.
So tell me how you grew up andwhat your perspective of God was
, and kind of where that turnedfor you, what it transitioned
(05:37):
into you being.
I could confidently say you area champion of grace In my mind.
When I think of people in mylife that I know understand
grace in a very real, practicalway, you are at the top of that
list.
So tell me how did this happenfor you?
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Well, it happened with God.
So, yeah, I grew up going to myfamily's church and that's
where I got saved.
I got saved through that church.
I can remember my story was Iwas sitting in church one day
and the pastor opened up to averse and he was talking about
it.
And the verse was talking aboutI don't even remember exactly
(06:22):
what verse it was, I neverremember those exact details but
the verse itself was talkingabout how, when you die, you're
going to go to heaven and God'sgoing to say whether or not he
knows you, whether or not heknows you through Jesus, and if
he does, then he'll say well,enter thou into the kingdom, my
good and faithful servant.
(06:42):
And if he doesn't, well,there's another consequence
that's going to happen.
And I can just remember sittingin church feeling that that
draw on my heart Like I, this isit, this is my moment.
If I don't make the decisionright here, right now, I'm never
going to commit my life to theLord.
This is my last knock.
And so I looked back at my mom,who was sitting behind me in
(07:05):
church, and I just signed Jesusin my heart.
And she knew, right then andthere, exactly what I was
talking about.
And so she started the processto help me, you know, grow in my
faith and that kind of thing.
And as I continued to grow inthat, I realized that there was,
there was a part that wasmissing.
(07:26):
I understood the saving gracebecause I experienced it in the
moments notice.
And what I did is I kept trying.
I kept trying hard.
Okay, I'm going to follow thislist of rules.
I'm gonna follow the 10commandments.
I'm not gonna break any of them, and and if I do, I'm just
gonna try harder the next time,because I screwed up and I need
(07:49):
to get better.
And so that's that was what myrelationship was with God.
It was me coming to him sayingI'm going to do better for you.
I promise every single time,just like the children of Israel
, I'm going to do better.
And so, over time, god startedworking into my heart, me,
started to reveal hey, there'ssome other things that maybe you
(08:10):
don't fully understand aboutgrace.
And I started to.
It took a while because I wasvery hard-hearted, I was very
set in my ways.
I thought I knew what was rightand I thought that anything
else that wasn't what I thoughtwas right was wrong, and there
was no way that that waspossible, because I was right
and I'm saved, so I must knowall this stuff and Started,
(08:34):
though, looking around to someof some other churches.
After a little while I Gotmarried and all this stuff in
between, but as far as thechurches go, I started looking
around at some other churchesand finally stumbled into one of
the churches that I heard somepeople on the radio and things
like that.
And then I stumbled into yours,through a variety of different
(08:58):
churches, and you startedtalking about grace and what
grace was, and not just thesaving grace, but the daily
grace that we have access to.
And I don't know if youremember you probably do but I
was pretty pigheaded about it atfirst.
I was like there's no way thatthis is the truth.
There's no way that all Godwants me to do is submit to him
(09:21):
with F and H, faith and humility.
That's all that he asks of me.
And I said there's no way Ihave to do more.
Because that's what I felt inmy heart, that's what I thought
I knew.
That's what I thought arelationship with God was was a
growth in, in doing the rightthing, doing the good works, is
(09:42):
how I thought that I woulddevelop a better relationship.
And it took it took God andgone through you many, many
sermons, many, many, many, manysermons about grace and I
eventually started to get it.
And then I was like, okay, Iget it now, but what do I do?
And that's when yourdiscipleship came, came into
(10:04):
play and God called me into, tolearning even more about it and
studying it and diving in and,okay, well, what does that look
like in my work life?
What does that work look like inmy relationship with my wife?
What does that look like withmy kids?
When I started having those,thank God was just like Bro, I
got you, I got all of this,don't you worry about it.
(10:25):
That's grace thing.
It covers all of that and and Ican show you how to parent and
grace.
I can show you how to work ingrace.
I can show you how to bemarried in grace.
I can show you how to when yourpastor randomly tells you that
you're gonna have to preach insix weeks, I can help you with
that too, and do grace with that.
All of those different things,all were applied through grace
and so, yeah, I started into myjourney there and haven't looked
(10:47):
back.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Okay, awesome man.
You mentioned some really,really practical areas of life
when God has produced some goodworks in your life.
I would say marriage andparenting have been things that
I've observed in your life thatwhen I think of you I'm like,
(11:10):
wow, god has really used BK inthose areas.
But I'm sure that hasn't alwaysbeen easy and I'm sure it
wasn't success after successafter success.
So what I mean?
Can you highlight some failuresthat happened along the and the
way that grace picked you upand Dusted you off and God's
(11:37):
love Taught you some new aspect?
Can you think of anything inthe, in those practical areas,
that would be helpful for peoplelistening?
You know, because people I wasto tell you, you know People are
never really helped by oursuccess stories, but they are
very much helped by our failuresand hearing how we screwed up.
(11:58):
So anything come to mind when I, when I say that I Got.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
I got plenty of stories of when I screwed up.
There's a pretty commonoccurrence for me, that's.
I think that's probably thereason why I gravitated to this
grace thing so hard, because I'mlike I'm a big failure, what
can I do about it?
Oh, okay, so the story thatcomes to mind, one of the
stories that comes to mind iswhen my son Used grace against
(12:26):
me.
So I'll say a little back andthen I'll tell that story.
I Currently have four kids.
I have a 10 year old boy, aneight year old boy, a six year
old girl and a five year old boy.
So when we started on thejourney of becoming parents, we
went to a parenting class, agrace-based parenting class, and
(12:47):
Learned about how to parent andgrace.
And so we kind of set up a bitof a structure system at a
younger age that was very muchfocused around grace, not
focused on the failures of thekiddos, but what we can learn
from those failures and how wecan grow in that and it wasn't
(13:09):
Like any kind of physicaldiscipline.
It was very much Okay.
How can our life Focus?
How can our focus life and ourfocus rules of being parents
focus on Jesus and not onourselves?
So we had a bunch of rules inour house and they started.
They were pretty generic andthey kind of had a little bit of
(13:29):
an explanation, and when one ofthose rules were broken, it was
a conversation with them, withthat, with the kiddos Okay, what
happened here?
How can we, you know, how canwe grow and not do that?
But if it got broken again, theconsequences got a little bit
more and more Severe, if youwant to call that that, or a
little bit more.
Just pushing the child.
(13:52):
Yeah, exactly, we even went sofar.
We don't do it anymore becausethe kids are older and that's
all they want.
But sometimes we would do atime in where the child would be
right next to us the entiretime.
They didn't get to go off andplay, they got to be right by us
while we were making dinner andstuff like that.
Like that was one of theconsequences that we had, um,
(14:15):
and it was just like.
So occasionally I would Just tojust to teach what the grace was
.
I would go up to my son and I'dbe like buddy, I have a
question for you.
Did you break a rule?
Yes, I did.
Which rule did you break?
He'd go and he'd look oh, I, Ididn't respect that choice right
(14:37):
there, didn't respect God, andI'm saying it to you very calmly
, the conversation at the timewas not very calm.
He was very mad because he knewa consequence was coming.
I don't want to read the rulethat I broke and like, well, you
need to tell me which rule itwas.
And so he would tell me whichrule.
After a little bit of fighting,you tell me which rule he broke
(14:57):
and I'm okay.
Well, um, so what do you deserve?
I don't want, like well, it'sokay, I'm judging by your
reaction, that that you deservea consequence.
Correct me.
Yes, dad, I deserve aconsequence.
Okay, I'm not gonna give you aconsequence, I'm gonna take your
consequence.
I'm gonna have the time in, I'mgonna go hang out with mommy.
(15:20):
You have no consequences, eventhough you 100% deserve a
consequence because you brokethe rule and it's listed right
there.
I'm taking your consequence foryou.
I'm going to show you grace andI'm going to allow you to not
have any consequences whatsoeverfor that infraction.
I'm taking it for you.
(15:42):
So that was, that was great andall until one day when I decided
that in that particularsituation, I, the elevated
consequence was necessary.
And he turned back and lookedat me.
Oh, I guess grace doesn't applyin his time, does it, dad?
And you know how, when yourkids have certain phrases that
(16:06):
they use and a certain tone ofvoice, it really just it just
hits you in your soul and youwant to talk about failures.
I may have gotten into my fleshjust a little bit and decided
that that wasn't okay and I wasgonna go toe-to-toe with him.
Yeah, my little five-year-oldand me, we were at button heads
and we escalated very, veryquickly and and that,
(16:31):
unfortunately, was the failure,because that story did not have
a happy ending we ended up in aMassive blowout fight.
He went to his room, entire daywas shot.
My wife had to step in and calmthe situation down and it was.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Not the best situation.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
So I I stood on it and I thought about it and I'm
like, well, what can I have donedifferently?
And my first thought again,just the enemy always whispering
those little things as well.
Your grace thing isn't workingbecause you taught him about
grace, you told him how greatgrace is, and he throws it back
in your face like, well, youshould have showed me grace here
(17:10):
and that's why you got mad.
It was a righteous, righteousanger that you had.
It wasn't a Thing of your flesh, it was righteous because you
were trying to teach him andhe's not learning, and yeah, and
then God swooped in and he'slike, yeah, no, that, that
that's not it.
You want to talk about arelationship?
You want to talk about thatfather, son, dynamic.
(17:33):
Well, you're my child, you'remy son and have I ever?
when you Reacted like that to me?
Because don't you react likethat to me?
Yes, yes, yes, god, I do,you're right.
And what do I do when you reactto me like that?
You?
You give me a big, giant hugand you tell me it's okay.
(17:54):
And sometimes there areconsequences, because life has
consequences, but it's not aCondemnation, this you know.
Separation from me, kind ofconsequence, it's bring you
closer to me, kind ofconsequence.
I want you to trust me morewith your consequence.
So Consequences are okay.
(18:15):
They're there for us to grow inour relationship with him, not
to push us out and keep us atliteral arms length from God.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
How much work is it to faithfully raise your kids?
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Zero work.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
When.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
This other two different ways that I can raise
my kids.
There's the work way andthere's the grace way.
And when I wake up in themorning and I'm, you know,
devoted to the Lord, and I godownstairs and instead of
checking Facebook on my phonewhile I'm doing my morning
routine and Doing all thesethings that are trivial and
(19:11):
meaningless.
They're not bad things per se,but they're not good.
So when I wake up in themorning and I go downstairs and
I start working out, I startgetting my blood flowing, my
body going.
As soon as I'm done with myworkout, I open up the Bible app
and I started devotion.
And, ironically, the devotionthat I'm doing right now is
(19:31):
parenting with Patience, becauseit's still a thing that God is
constantly teaching me about.
Even though that story wasEight years ago, I'm still
learning how to have patience inparenting and it's still
something.
So when I'm starting my daylike that and then I make my
wife coffee and I bring itupstairs to her so I can get the
breakfast going for the kids,that day is a very different day
(19:56):
than when I wake up and I onlygot five minutes before I have
to have the kids Fed and out thedoor.
Well then, they're homeschooled, so they're not out the door.
Before I have to be out thedoor, that day is a completely
different day than the one thatI start with Faith and the grace
, faith and humility, that beingexact, versus the day where I
(20:16):
start in my works and and tryand parent in that way, or even
coming home, when Because I havetwo little pockets I have the
morning pocket where I am, youknow, taking care of the kids,
doing all the breakfast, makingsure that they're starting their
day with their devotions, andthen I have the evening where
I'm with them, and then themiddle is the work time.
(20:38):
So when I come home and I Comein hot oh, I had such a day like
, oh, you're not gonna believethis, let me tell you everything
about my day.
There's four little minions andone grown adult that also wants
to tell me about their day.
So when I go in with that focusof self, okay, I'm gonna tell
everyone about my day because Ihad the craziest day.
(20:59):
Whether it was a good day or abad day, it doesn't matter.
If I go in there focused onself, focused on what I want,
what I want to do, that day isjust not going to be a great day
, versus.
When I go in and the first thingI ask my wife is hey, baby, I'm
home.
What can I do to help you?
Oh, I just started dish.
I just started dinner.
Why don't you do dishes, kid?
(21:20):
They're playing video games.
Can you keep eyes on them?
Great, while we're doingsomething, I can start to tell
her about my day, because shewants to hear about it.
But she wants that relationshipaspect, she wants that two-way
street.
It's not just me coming in andsaying, but that's my day, okay,
great, now I feel better, I'mgonna, I'm gonna go upstairs and
(21:43):
take a nice hot shower andshe's like, really, really, this
is how the night's gonna go.
Okay, okay, I see, I see.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
So You're doing a lot , you know, but as you you're
describing it, you're sayingthat If you're self focused, it
doesn't really matter whatyou're gonna try to do.
It's always gonna come across asbeing you know, it's always
gonna be by the flesh and it'snot really gonna bless anybody
(22:14):
but if you're focused, yeah, butif you're focused on others and
Christ and and you know, havethis true humility in in your
life, then you are gonna bedoing a lot of things like but
it's for other people and it'sfocused on other people.
And so I Guess you know, ifyou're trying to do those things
(22:38):
, in your flesh it's gonna seemlike work.
But if you're truly focused onon other people, have laid down
your life and crucified yourflesh, man, you're gonna.
You're gonna be experiencing adifferent kind of of Serving
other people.
(22:59):
I saw quote today, I thinkironically on Facebook, I think
from CS Lewis that said I'mgonna butcher it, but it says
something about serving isn'tthe high.
Serving isn't Something we tryto do as Christians, it is the
highest Form of godliness orsomething like that.
(23:23):
I don't know, I totallybutchered that, but somebody can
correct me in the commentslater.
But yeah, so you do a lot.
You know, if someone were tolook at you on the outside, they
would say man, you Are all in.
Do you feel like you're missingout or do you feel like you're
(23:52):
experiencing something great?
Speaker 2 (23:59):
It is such a radical change in my life to have this
daily grace.
The verse that you readreminded me of when Bob Hochstra
talked about grace upon graceupon grace.
That is so true and relevant inmy heart and in my mind.
(24:20):
I apply it to my work meetingsall the time.
When I'm sitting down having aone-on-one with somebody, I
never know where God's going totake that conversation with them
.
Or when I'm sitting down withour kids at dinner table, we
have no idea where ourconversations are going to go.
Sometimes we go off intoincredible left field bizarre
(24:41):
conversations where we find outthat my daughter wants to be a
grape digger when she grows up.
Just craziness that we go upinto.
But it all comes back to thatgrace of the Lord.
When I am there just revelingin my relationship with Christ
through His grace of abundantlove over me, it's surreal.
(25:06):
There's nothing else thatmatters in the world.
You don't feel like you'remissing out on anything because
you're not.
You've got all that you need.
You've got the entirety of thepower of Jesus Christ at your
fingertips, at your back andcall.
When you are immersed in thatdaily grace of His life, You're
(25:29):
not feeling.
Oftentimes, when I was learningthe grace or growing up and I
failed.
I felt this guilt, thisoverwhelming guilt that I had
failed my father, that I hadfailed my God, and then learning
(25:49):
about this grace, it's like no.
I don't need to feel that guilt,because that guilt is not
coming from God.
It can't come from God becauseI'm in a bunch of this word, but
I think it's propitiation,where God poured out His
unending wrath onto Jesus on thecross and Jesus took all of
that wrath and sent it to hell,came back, and so God literally
(26:13):
has no anger left for me, so Idon't have to feel any of that
anger.
I'm not going to live a perfectlife, but I know that I'm going
to live a grace-filled lifebecause I can always come back
to those hands, even if I'm theone who strays.
It's always open because I'mcovered through the blood of
Jesus and I have access to thatall the time.
(26:36):
So yeah long answer to yourshort question.
No, I don't feel like I'mmissing it.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
What does, what does church look like for you these
days?
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Church is fantastic.
God has just continued to growin my life as far as what church
is.
And the Bible says we're two ormore gathered, that's church.
And so we have a teeny, tinylittle home church.
There's five of us plus my fourkids, so nine congregation in
total, and we meet at my houseon Sundays and it is fantastic
(27:16):
because it's all about communityand relationship Relationship
with the other people in mychurch, but also relationship
with my God, which, as I said,that's what drives me, that's
what I am focused on.
That's why I'm in businessdevelopment.
At end crediting, that's whyI'm good at my job is because
(27:37):
I'm very good at therelationship side of things.
I don't do well with paperwork,I don't do well with my new
chef.
Every single verse that I'veever read I can't just you know.
I know other people on thispodcast have spattered off
verses, but that's not who I am.
I'm so much more of the touchy,feely relationship, like, yeah,
people are awesome untilthey're not, but even then I
(27:59):
still kind of like them becausethey're different than I can
have that relationship and so,yeah, it's a very much a
relationship based church.
We study books of the Bible, butwe have the fluidity too, if
somebody comes and they'restruggling with something and
this has happened so many timesin our church.
Somebody has come and they saidI am struggling with this right
(28:22):
now, and we say, great, we takeit, we throw our conversation
out and we said let's talk aboutthis today.
What does the Bible say?
We lay on hands, we pray overthem, we do communion, we do, we
eat together.
So we have two different typesof communion.
We have the weekly communion,where everyone brings, you know,
bits and pieces of food.
(28:43):
Everyone's bringing the bread,we're providing the meat, other
people bring the dessert andwe're just talking about our
weeks and growing andunderstanding and holding each
other accountable.
Like, hey, last week you saidyou were going to talk to Frank
at work.
How did that go?
I didn't do it yet.
Okay, try again this week.
Okay, we're going to.
(29:05):
You know, iron sharpens iron.
We're able to continue withthat and it's been incredible
just to watch.
I think one of the bestrealizations that I've had about
the incredible power of ourhome church is watching my
children blossom into being partof our congregation.
(29:29):
They are not, you know, keptoff to the side doing their own
thing.
Yes, they'll do their own thingbecause they're kids, but we
oftentimes have an activitythat's incorporated into it.
Like last week, we had a puzzlepiece and I took one of each of
the kids' puzzle pieces andstuck it in my pocket.
So while they were trying to dothe puzzle, they were missing
(29:50):
something.
There was a piece that wasmissing and that tied into the
message that I was talking tothe adults about, and I handed
them the piece about threequarters of the way through so
they could finish their puzzle,and it was this whole thing.
So there's been many times wherethe churches sitting around
talking about things that theystruggled with and it's
(30:10):
something my kiddos havestruggled with and so they raise
their little hands and we callon them and say, yeah, what do
you have to say?
And sometimes they go off intoleft field, but other times they
have this poignant message froma child, just the most like oh
yeah, that is exactly what I'mgoing through.
You're right, and here's whatI've done to work on that.
(30:31):
What have you tried?
You've tried that.
Okay, maybe try this.
And it's just this wholecommunity of believers who are
growing together and I love thatand I think it's fantastic.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
Awesome, so that's, that's really beautiful.
I've done home church as wellfor a while and I can't stop
talking about how wonderful itreally is.
I love all the church you know,and no matter where people are
going or how they're, you know,connecting, I think that the
(31:09):
message of grace is really whatpeople need to hear.
As you're out there and asyou're meeting people and you
start talking about grace, doyou think people are getting it?
Do you think that it's a neededmessage?
Do you think you're a messengerthat is out there talking to
people about grace, or how doyou see that happening as you're
(31:33):
out there talking to so manypeople?
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Yeah, everybody needs it.
That's the bottom line.
Everybody needs this, the dailygrace.
Some people get it better thanothers, but all of us need it
because none of us have masteredwhat grace is, and I know that
there are people that I'vetalked to that are right on the
(31:57):
cusp of getting it, but theydon't have.
There's a lot of people I talkto that just don't even have the
message of the gospel message.
They understand the grace thingbecause they know what we need
to love everybody.
Yes, but yes, and is actuallythe phrase that we use now.
Yes, and you also need thebasis cornerstone of Christ and
(32:18):
those that do have Christ.
There's a lot of them that Alsotry and give me the yes.
And when I'm talking, let's sayI'm talking about home church
Been talking to some peopleabout home church and they're
like well, how do you do worship?
There's only nine of you, whatdo you do?
I'm like Well, we put up aYouTube with the words, which is
great, because I was the wordguy at a church and it didn't go
(32:41):
over very well.
I miss words like every singlesong.
And I was I wasn't mocked, butit was not a good thing, like
people were not following alongbecause I didn't know what I was
doing, so that was great.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
So now you do to your face.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Yeah, we did mock you to your face, it was no, not to
my face, exactly I was justtold me after words exactly, and
oftentimes I would mock myselfto my face because I'm like guys
, I totally did not know wherethat song was going and our good
friend Chris would be over andhe'd be like slide 33 Thanks,
(33:17):
okay.
Okay, I still.
But so you know, somebody askedme well, how do you, how do you
do worship in your church?
And I'm like we throw up aYouTube video and there's the
words that are on there and it'sa communal singing.
We're all singing at the top ofour lungs in the middle of the
home church.
So there are people that thinkyou have to do not that there's
(33:38):
anything wrong with that styleof worship.
That is a message for a lot ofpeople.
But what's wrong is whensomebody says that that's the
only way to do it and they thinkthat their way of doing it is
the Way that there's.
No, I was there.
I had that's hard, hard, whereI thought my way was the only
way, and God was able to work inthat and realize that there is
(34:00):
a lot of things for a lot ofpeople.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
So you've kind of developed your own like
expression of what church is Iswithin your own little culture
that you got going on there.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
And it's fantastic because we did the, the guests
of the spirit, the little quizand no shock at all the, the one
person that really, reallyaccelerated in the what was the
gift?
I can't remember what it wascalled, but it was like the, the
one who is an extrovert whowould go talk to all the people.
(34:37):
There's only one person in ourchurch who, who is specifically
gifted in talking with a bunchof random people, and that was
me and shocker and everyone elseso was gifted in all these
other ways like administrationand organization and Worship and
and all these and children'sministry.
(34:57):
I know that's not a gift of thespirits first day, but it is
what our church needed and we'reable to say, okay, well, you
were gifted with admin, so we'renot going to make this guy sit
there and try and write astatement of faith, because
that's not going to go well foranybody.
He's just going to use chat,gpt and it's going to be really
weird and confusing.
So let's have somebody who'sgifted in that way be able to
(35:19):
develop and develop thestatement of faith.
And when it comes to likeworship music, I'm empowered
through my church that theworship that we play, the
communion worship, isn't the,the music that touches my soul,
but I know that it's okay for meto sing at the top of my lungs,
worship the Lord in my own way.
(35:41):
And when I get in my car thevery next day and I'm driving to
work, I turn on my type ofmusic, which is the skillet, you
know, jesus head banging kindof music, and that's how I
worship the Lord and that's okaybecause that's how God has made
me and that's how I communewith him.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
Not gonna throw on some skillet in the church.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
I tried and they vetoed me.
I came close.
I put on some disciple on therelike Alright, we're gonna let
this one pass and I'm like sweet, but if you do it again, we're
on to you Okay.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
Hey, that's pretty cool.
That's pretty cool.
Oh man, that's awesome.
All right, so what does thefuture hold, the next five years
, for Benjamin BK Martin andyour family?
Speaker 2 (36:34):
That is.
That is the question.
I barely know what I'm going todo tomorrow.
So future, I Think it's just sowe've been doing a I devotional
on Sundays, me and the boys,and it's called the the five
(36:55):
thing the five dangers of ofgrowing up, and they take these
kids a whole little video seriesand they take these kids to To
a little camp out and andthey're, you know, practically
teaching these young boys whatthe five dangers are.
And the first danger so far hasbeen pride, and we've got four
(37:16):
more to go.
But one of the things they saidin this Bible study was the
choices that you make To my kids, choices you guys make in the
next five to seven years, willcompletely alter the entire
history of your life.
So I think for me in the nextfive years it's really going to
(37:37):
be focused on Showing the graceof the Lord to my kids and what
that looks like for them.
I know that sports are going tostart being a thing.
So how do we show grace in oursports, how do we show grace in
our church?
How do we show grace in ourprograms and then all of these
different pieces.
So really just training them upfor the next five years, so
(38:00):
that when they do hit theteenage years and they don't
want to listen to dad anymoreI'm sure it's going to happen
before five years anyway butwhen they get to that point they
at least have some, some basisthat we were able to etching to
them.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Wow, that's really cool, man.
You have such a vision forparenting.
I feel like so many people andI've struggled with it too it's
just surviving the day.
It's just surviving the day,and I know you've had those days
too where the day was so hard.
(38:37):
It's hard to have a real visionfor what the future may hold.
But I asked you that questionon purpose, because I know you
and I know that you really thinkabout the big picture with
parenting so much more thananyone.
I know you really do that, andso that's one of the things I
(39:00):
admire most about you.
So well done.
I think you're an example tomany people of how to parent
with grace, and when we sayparenting with grace, I just
want to clarify that doesn'tmean just being nice to your
kids all the time.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
No, it does not.
There are.
I can expand on that a littlebit, because the thing I always
like to tell people is that I amnot raising subservient
children.
I am not raising yes, sirchildren that follow every word
that I say.
That's not a grace-basedparenting style, because that's
not what God asks of us.
I am raising future adults.
(39:40):
I am raising kids that canbecome adults, that can go into
the world and deal with problemsthat arise and deal with issues
that exist, because they aregoing to have people that are
not nice to them.
They're going to have bossesthat are not nice to them.
And if you're raising your kidsright now with I'm gonna choose
(40:01):
my words carefully there's a lotof people that are raising kids
without that level of grace,without that understanding that
there are consequences toactions.
God gives us consequences basedon the actions that we have,
and if we are continuing to poopoo that and say, no, there are
no consequences for the choicesthat you make, when they become
(40:24):
adults, they're going to expectthat there are no consequences,
and that's just not the way thatGod made this world.
So you need to be able to helpyour kids along so that they can
be productive members of thesociety and be kids that
understand.
Yes, trials and tribulationsare going to come up.
My dad and my mom they taughtme how to handle this when I was
(40:45):
younger.
What do I need to do?
Oh, yeah, go back to God andget their grace, and get his
grace, and he will help methrough it.
So helping them understand thatin a practical way has been
what grace parenting is for me.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
So it's teaching them how to have that relationship
with God.
You know, it says in John 1, 16that Jesus, when he came, came
and he was full of grace andtruth, and it sounds like that's
kind of what you werehighlighting is like, yeah, I'm
giving my kids truth, where I'mgiving them the reality of what
(41:23):
this world is, but then alsoteaching them and this is the
big part teaching them how tohave a relationship with God
that is effective, to where theyknow how to go to him, how to
get his grace, obtain his grace,so that they can then rise up
to the standard that all peoplehave been called to, the
(41:43):
standard that the law so clearlyand wonderfully declares.
But grace enables us to not onlylive up to that standard, but
actually be lifted above thatstandard, have so much love and
just abounding in life andfruitfulness, and that's what
that relationship that you'regiving you're teaching your kids
(42:06):
, and that's really the job ofevery pastor.
You're just being the pastor ofyour family and you're a good
pastor.
You know you do a good job ofdoing that.
And that's the hardest peopleto pastor is your own family,
because they know how dumb youare And-.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
They see it all the time.
Speaker 1 (42:27):
Yeah, how selfish you can be, so, but that means that
when you are yourself dependingon the Lord, they see that and
they see your life filled withhis grace.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
I think if I can add one thing to that, it's the
crazy part about my growth ingrace is that I always thought I
needed to follow a list ofrules.
I always thought that, you know, I shouldn't do that and I
shouldn't do this and Ishouldn't do that.
And when I got this gracemessage, when I got this grace
thing, the insane thing is Idon't do those things.
(43:05):
But the reason behind why Idon't do those things is where
that grace part comes in.
It's not because not doingthose things will make me holy.
It's because God has alreadymade me holy.
So I no longer want to do thosethings.
I no longer have thatrequirement on me to follow a
(43:25):
list of rules because I'm soentrenched in grace and his love
that that doesn't even cross mymind sometimes.
And yeah, Amen.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
That's the perfect description of our how the new
covenant brings transformationfrom the inside.
You know God?
God is not afraid of sayingthere's no rules, you're free,
you're 100% free.
But just know that if you goparticipate in sin, you will not
(44:00):
be happy, you will never beable to live with yourself,
because my Holy Spirit insideyou is stronger than anything
and you won't be able to enjoysin the way that you used to.
So that is how the new covenant, through the power of the Holy
Spirit, really transforms usfrom the inside out.
(44:22):
It's just a beautiful thing andso much different, so much more
powerful than just givingpeople rules and saying do this.
And that's what makes youaccepted by God.
Speaker 2 (44:36):
Yeah, and I mean, if you look at it, if you have a
list of rules again.
I always go back to theparenting because that's the
biggest part of my life.
But if I were to go up to allfour of my kids and say these
are the list of rules that youare not allowed to do, I
guarantee every single one ofthem will find a way to skirt
the rule without breaking one ofthem.
(44:57):
They will find the exception orthe you know technicality that
we'd have to get, and so whatyou would end up having if you
do that with your children isthe list that never ends,
because they're going to findanother way to break one of the
rules and be like, well, that'snot on the list, okay, well, I'm
adding it now, okay, andthey'll find another way to
break it that is not actually onthe list.
And so the grace parentingreally focuses on where's your
(45:21):
heart at, where is your heart inthe choice that you made?
And if your heart is onyourself, that's a problem,
because it needs to be on God,not on mom, not on dad, not on
your sibling, on God, and therest of that comes with it.
So grace parenting reallyfocuses and really hones in on
what that looks like and notjust don't do that, don't do
(45:44):
that, don't do that and yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
Man.
It's a great, great example forall of us who are raising kids.
So thank you, bk, for all thatyou're doing and how the Lord
has been using you.
Speaker 2 (46:00):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
Awesome.
So we're gonna wrap it up here.
I'm probably gonna have you asa guest on again another time to
talk about other things.
Maybe we could talk about workand we could kind of dive into
how God is using you in thatrealm, because I think it's
pretty powerful there too.
But thank you everybody forjoining us.
Bk, you're a gentleman and ascholar and we will talk again
(46:27):
soon.
Everyone, keep growing in grace.
Talk to you later.
Welcome everyone to Simple Grace podcast.
My name is Sean Renzel, I'm theauthor of the book Simple Grace
and we're doing a bunch ofministry around the world
discipling people in the newcovenant of grace, and so this
podcast is just an opportunityfor me to have some
conversations with friends,enemies, people I meet.
(00:28):
Who knows who's going to be thenext guest, you never know but
today I'm very happy to bring inmy good good friend, benjamin
Martin.
He goes by BK.
So good afternoon evening toyou here, let's.
I'm going to set it up likethat.
Okay, we always get started byreading a verse, so I'm going to
(00:51):
read 2 Corinthians 9, 8, justto get our brains and our hearts
kind of moving in the directionof God's grace.
So let's read this it says andGod is able to make all grace
abound towards you that youalways, having all sufficiency
(01:11):
in all things, may have anabundance for every good work.
I love that verse because somepeople think that if you believe
in grace or teaching grace,that you're not concerned at all
about good works, and I find itactually grace.
The whole purpose of it is toproduce good works in our life
(01:34):
and and God wants us to do goodworks, but he doesn't want them
to do us to do it through ourflesh, through our own efforts.
He wants us to learn how totrust in him, depend on him,
through relationship with him.
We can.
We can do God's will.
We can be equipped to do God'swill.
Well, that brings me to BK.
(01:54):
Bk is a dear, dear friend ofmine.
We've been close ever since,just before I planted the church
in Denver, so that would be2013.
So, like 2012, ish time is whenwe got close.
So, bk, I'm going to, I'm goingto give you a moment to just
introduce yourself However yousee fit.
(02:15):
So tell me who you are, whatyou do, and then, and then we'll
kind of back up and do yourhistory after that.
But just give me a goodintroduction for yourself right
now.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
All right, I'm BK.
My mom always hated the name.
My full name is Benjamin.
As you said at the beginning,my mom always hated the name Ben
.
So growing up I started goingwith my initials because I
didn't want to write Benjamin onall my papers.
And I've been BK ever since.
So that's who I am.
I'm a bit of an eclectic weirdoI love.
(02:47):
My current obsessions are dartsand watching cricket and stuff
like that.
So, yep, I'm definitely bizarre, and that's the thing.
Gwai Sean and I were such goodfriends.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
I remember the last thing you were into was like
lock picking right, like lockpicking sport.
Yeah, so you're done with thatnow.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Yep, I moved on to darts.
I have a dart board downstairsnow that I throw darts at
whenever I get a chance, whichis pretty much every night,
because it's really easy to godownstairs and throw six, seven
darts.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
That's really cool.
That's cool.
What do you do for a living?
Speaker 2 (03:25):
So I work for a financial institution called Ent
Credit Union.
I'm a business developmentspecialist, so essentially what
I tell everybody is I don't doany actual work, I just show up
to events and look cute.
That's my entire job is to workevents and tell people how
great my company is.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
And are you good at it?
Speaker 2 (03:46):
I think I'm pretty good at it.
I like talking about people, Ilike relationships, I like
developing relationships, whichis a perfect segue to talk about
grace, because that's whatgrace is.
It's just a full onrelationship with God.
And I think one thing just tojump ahead a little bit One
thing that has always amazed meis how the lessons that I've
learned about how to have arelationship with God also apply
(04:10):
with how to have a relationshipwith people in my work, with
people in my family, whateverthat looks like.
So being able to take that andapply it in so many different
avenues has been amazing.
Grace has changed my life.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
That's really good Relationships.
It's funny because, as men,we're mystified when we learn
something about relationaltruths.
We're like, wow, I didn't haveany idea how these relationships
work.
Our wives you talk to women andthey're just so relationally
(04:49):
advanced.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
it seems like there was definitely many Sundays
after some of your sermons whereI'm an iron driving in a car
and I'm like, oh my gosh, didyou know that this was such a
realization?
Yeah, it was a really goodreminder, honey.
Really good.
I'm like no this was mindblowing.
I can't believe it.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
All right, well, let's get some history here.
So you and I served together inchurch for a decade, which was
awesome, but I want to knowabout the before that.
So tell me how you grew up andwhat your perspective of God was
, and kind of where that turnedfor you, what it transitioned
(05:37):
into you being.
I could confidently say you area champion of grace In my mind.
When I think of people in mylife that I know understand
grace in a very real, practicalway, you are at the top of that
list.
So tell me how did this happenfor you?
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Well, it happened with God.
So, yeah, I grew up going to myfamily's church and that's
where I got saved.
I got saved through that church.
I can remember my story was Iwas sitting in church one day
and the pastor opened up to averse and he was talking about
it.
And the verse was talking aboutI don't even remember exactly
(06:22):
what verse it was, I neverremember those exact details but
the verse itself was talkingabout how, when you die, you're
going to go to heaven and God'sgoing to say whether or not he
knows you, whether or not heknows you through Jesus, and if
he does, then he'll say well,enter thou into the kingdom, my
good and faithful servant.
(06:42):
And if he doesn't, well,there's another consequence
that's going to happen.
And I can just remember sittingin church feeling that that
draw on my heart Like I, this isit, this is my moment.
If I don't make the decisionright here, right now, I'm never
going to commit my life to theLord.
This is my last knock.
And so I looked back at my mom,who was sitting behind me in
(07:05):
church, and I just signed Jesusin my heart.
And she knew, right then andthere, exactly what I was
talking about.
And so she started the processto help me, you know, grow in my
faith and that kind of thing.
And as I continued to grow inthat, I realized that there was,
there was a part that wasmissing.
(07:26):
I understood the saving gracebecause I experienced it in the
moments notice.
And what I did is I kept trying.
I kept trying hard.
Okay, I'm going to follow thislist of rules.
I'm gonna follow the 10commandments.
I'm not gonna break any of them, and and if I do, I'm just
gonna try harder the next time,because I screwed up and I need
(07:49):
to get better.
And so that's that was what myrelationship was with God.
It was me coming to him sayingI'm going to do better for you.
I promise every single time,just like the children of Israel
, I'm going to do better.
And so, over time, god startedworking into my heart, me,
started to reveal hey, there'ssome other things that maybe you
(08:10):
don't fully understand aboutgrace.
And I started to.
It took a while because I wasvery hard-hearted, I was very
set in my ways.
I thought I knew what was rightand I thought that anything
else that wasn't what I thoughtwas right was wrong, and there
was no way that that waspossible, because I was right
and I'm saved, so I must knowall this stuff and Started,
(08:34):
though, looking around to someof some other churches.
After a little while I Gotmarried and all this stuff in
between, but as far as thechurches go, I started looking
around at some other churchesand finally stumbled into one of
the churches that I heard somepeople on the radio and things
like that.
And then I stumbled into yours,through a variety of different
(08:58):
churches, and you startedtalking about grace and what
grace was, and not just thesaving grace, but the daily
grace that we have access to.
And I don't know if youremember you probably do but I
was pretty pigheaded about it atfirst.
I was like there's no way thatthis is the truth.
There's no way that all Godwants me to do is submit to him
(09:21):
with F and H, faith and humility.
That's all that he asks of me.
And I said there's no way Ihave to do more.
Because that's what I felt inmy heart, that's what I thought
I knew.
That's what I thought arelationship with God was was a
growth in, in doing the rightthing, doing the good works, is
(09:42):
how I thought that I woulddevelop a better relationship.
And it took it took God andgone through you many, many
sermons, many, many, many, manysermons about grace and I
eventually started to get it.
And then I was like, okay, Iget it now, but what do I do?
And that's when yourdiscipleship came, came into
(10:04):
play and God called me into, tolearning even more about it and
studying it and diving in and,okay, well, what does that look
like in my work life?
What does that work look like inmy relationship with my wife?
What does that look like withmy kids?
When I started having those,thank God was just like Bro, I
got you, I got all of this,don't you worry about it.
(10:25):
That's grace thing.
It covers all of that and and Ican show you how to parent and
grace.
I can show you how to work ingrace.
I can show you how to bemarried in grace.
I can show you how to when yourpastor randomly tells you that
you're gonna have to preach insix weeks, I can help you with
that too, and do grace with that.
All of those different things,all were applied through grace
and so, yeah, I started into myjourney there and haven't looked
(10:47):
back.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Okay, awesome man.
You mentioned some really,really practical areas of life
when God has produced some goodworks in your life.
I would say marriage andparenting have been things that
I've observed in your life thatwhen I think of you I'm like,
(11:10):
wow, god has really used BK inthose areas.
But I'm sure that hasn't alwaysbeen easy and I'm sure it
wasn't success after successafter success.
So what I mean?
Can you highlight some failuresthat happened along the and the
way that grace picked you upand Dusted you off and God's
(11:37):
love Taught you some new aspect?
Can you think of anything inthe, in those practical areas,
that would be helpful for peoplelistening?
You know, because people I wasto tell you, you know People are
never really helped by oursuccess stories, but they are
very much helped by our failuresand hearing how we screwed up.
(11:58):
So anything come to mind when I, when I say that I Got.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
I got plenty of stories of when I screwed up.
There's a pretty commonoccurrence for me, that's.
I think that's probably thereason why I gravitated to this
grace thing so hard, because I'mlike I'm a big failure, what
can I do about it?
Oh, okay, so the story thatcomes to mind, one of the
stories that comes to mind iswhen my son Used grace against
(12:26):
me.
So I'll say a little back andthen I'll tell that story.
I Currently have four kids.
I have a 10 year old boy, aneight year old boy, a six year
old girl and a five year old boy.
So when we started on thejourney of becoming parents, we
went to a parenting class, agrace-based parenting class, and
(12:47):
Learned about how to parent andgrace.
And so we kind of set up a bitof a structure system at a
younger age that was very muchfocused around grace, not
focused on the failures of thekiddos, but what we can learn
from those failures and how wecan grow in that and it wasn't
(13:09):
Like any kind of physicaldiscipline.
It was very much Okay.
How can our life Focus?
How can our focus life and ourfocus rules of being parents
focus on Jesus and not onourselves?
So we had a bunch of rules inour house and they started.
They were pretty generic andthey kind of had a little bit of
(13:29):
an explanation, and when one ofthose rules were broken, it was
a conversation with them, withthat, with the kiddos Okay, what
happened here?
How can we, you know, how canwe grow and not do that?
But if it got broken again, theconsequences got a little bit
more and more Severe, if youwant to call that that, or a
little bit more.
Just pushing the child.
(13:52):
Yeah, exactly, we even went sofar.
We don't do it anymore becausethe kids are older and that's
all they want.
But sometimes we would do atime in where the child would be
right next to us the entiretime.
They didn't get to go off andplay, they got to be right by us
while we were making dinner andstuff like that.
Like that was one of theconsequences that we had, um,
(14:15):
and it was just like.
So occasionally I would Just tojust to teach what the grace was
.
I would go up to my son and I'dbe like buddy, I have a
question for you.
Did you break a rule?
Yes, I did.
Which rule did you break?
He'd go and he'd look oh, I, Ididn't respect that choice right
(14:37):
there, didn't respect God, andI'm saying it to you very calmly
, the conversation at the timewas not very calm.
He was very mad because he knewa consequence was coming.
I don't want to read the rulethat I broke and like, well, you
need to tell me which rule itwas.
And so he would tell me whichrule.
After a little bit of fighting,you tell me which rule he broke
(14:57):
and I'm okay.
Well, um, so what do you deserve?
I don't want, like well, it'sokay, I'm judging by your
reaction, that that you deservea consequence.
Correct me.
Yes, dad, I deserve aconsequence.
Okay, I'm not gonna give you aconsequence, I'm gonna take your
consequence.
I'm gonna have the time in, I'mgonna go hang out with mommy.
(15:20):
You have no consequences, eventhough you 100% deserve a
consequence because you brokethe rule and it's listed right
there.
I'm taking your consequence foryou.
I'm going to show you grace andI'm going to allow you to not
have any consequences whatsoeverfor that infraction.
I'm taking it for you.
(15:42):
So that was, that was great andall until one day when I decided
that in that particularsituation, I, the elevated
consequence was necessary.
And he turned back and lookedat me.
Oh, I guess grace doesn't applyin his time, does it, dad?
And you know how, when yourkids have certain phrases that
(16:06):
they use and a certain tone ofvoice, it really just it just
hits you in your soul and youwant to talk about failures.
I may have gotten into my fleshjust a little bit and decided
that that wasn't okay and I wasgonna go toe-to-toe with him.
Yeah, my little five-year-oldand me, we were at button heads
and we escalated very, veryquickly and and that,
(16:31):
unfortunately, was the failure,because that story did not have
a happy ending we ended up in aMassive blowout fight.
He went to his room, entire daywas shot.
My wife had to step in and calmthe situation down and it was.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Not the best situation.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
So I I stood on it and I thought about it and I'm
like, well, what can I have donedifferently?
And my first thought again,just the enemy always whispering
those little things as well.
Your grace thing isn't workingbecause you taught him about
grace, you told him how greatgrace is, and he throws it back
in your face like, well, youshould have showed me grace here
(17:10):
and that's why you got mad.
It was a righteous, righteousanger that you had.
It wasn't a Thing of your flesh, it was righteous because you
were trying to teach him andhe's not learning, and yeah, and
then God swooped in and he'slike, yeah, no, that, that
that's not it.
You want to talk about arelationship?
You want to talk about thatfather, son, dynamic.
(17:33):
Well, you're my child, you'remy son and have I ever?
when you Reacted like that to me?
Because don't you react likethat to me?
Yes, yes, yes, god, I do,you're right.
And what do I do when you reactto me like that?
You?
You give me a big, giant hugand you tell me it's okay.
(17:54):
And sometimes there areconsequences, because life has
consequences, but it's not aCondemnation, this you know.
Separation from me, kind ofconsequence, it's bring you
closer to me, kind ofconsequence.
I want you to trust me morewith your consequence.
So Consequences are okay.
(18:15):
They're there for us to grow inour relationship with him, not
to push us out and keep us atliteral arms length from God.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
How much work is it to faithfully raise your kids?
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Zero work.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
When.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
This other two different ways that I can raise
my kids.
There's the work way andthere's the grace way.
And when I wake up in themorning and I'm, you know,
devoted to the Lord, and I godownstairs and instead of
checking Facebook on my phonewhile I'm doing my morning
routine and Doing all thesethings that are trivial and
(19:11):
meaningless.
They're not bad things per se,but they're not good.
So when I wake up in themorning and I go downstairs and
I start working out, I startgetting my blood flowing, my
body going.
As soon as I'm done with myworkout, I open up the Bible app
and I started devotion.
And, ironically, the devotionthat I'm doing right now is
(19:31):
parenting with Patience, becauseit's still a thing that God is
constantly teaching me about.
Even though that story wasEight years ago, I'm still
learning how to have patience inparenting and it's still
something.
So when I'm starting my daylike that and then I make my
wife coffee and I bring itupstairs to her so I can get the
breakfast going for the kids,that day is a very different day
(19:56):
than when I wake up and I onlygot five minutes before I have
to have the kids Fed and out thedoor.
Well then, they're homeschooled, so they're not out the door.
Before I have to be out thedoor, that day is a completely
different day than the one thatI start with Faith and the grace
, faith and humility, that beingexact, versus the day where I
(20:16):
start in my works and and tryand parent in that way, or even
coming home, when Because I havetwo little pockets I have the
morning pocket where I am, youknow, taking care of the kids,
doing all the breakfast, makingsure that they're starting their
day with their devotions, andthen I have the evening where
I'm with them, and then themiddle is the work time.
(20:38):
So when I come home and I Comein hot oh, I had such a day like
, oh, you're not gonna believethis, let me tell you everything
about my day.
There's four little minions andone grown adult that also wants
to tell me about their day.
So when I go in with that focusof self, okay, I'm gonna tell
everyone about my day because Ihad the craziest day.
(20:59):
Whether it was a good day or abad day, it doesn't matter.
If I go in there focused onself, focused on what I want,
what I want to do, that day isjust not going to be a great day
, versus.
When I go in and the first thingI ask my wife is hey, baby, I'm
home.
What can I do to help you?
Oh, I just started dish.
I just started dinner.
Why don't you do dishes, kid?
(21:20):
They're playing video games.
Can you keep eyes on them?
Great, while we're doingsomething, I can start to tell
her about my day, because shewants to hear about it.
But she wants that relationshipaspect, she wants that two-way
street.
It's not just me coming in andsaying, but that's my day, okay,
great, now I feel better, I'mgonna, I'm gonna go upstairs and
(21:43):
take a nice hot shower andshe's like, really, really, this
is how the night's gonna go.
Okay, okay, I see, I see.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
So You're doing a lot , you know, but as you you're
describing it, you're sayingthat If you're self focused, it
doesn't really matter whatyou're gonna try to do.
It's always gonna come across asbeing you know, it's always
gonna be by the flesh and it'snot really gonna bless anybody
(22:14):
but if you're focused, yeah, butif you're focused on others and
Christ and and you know, havethis true humility in in your
life, then you are gonna bedoing a lot of things like but
it's for other people and it'sfocused on other people.
And so I Guess you know, ifyou're trying to do those things
(22:38):
, in your flesh it's gonna seemlike work.
But if you're truly focused onon other people, have laid down
your life and crucified yourflesh, man, you're gonna.
You're gonna be experiencing adifferent kind of of Serving
other people.
(22:59):
I saw quote today, I thinkironically on Facebook, I think
from CS Lewis that said I'mgonna butcher it, but it says
something about serving isn'tthe high.
Serving isn't Something we tryto do as Christians, it is the
highest Form of godliness orsomething like that.
(23:23):
I don't know, I totallybutchered that, but somebody can
correct me in the commentslater.
But yeah, so you do a lot.
You know, if someone were tolook at you on the outside, they
would say man, you Are all in.
Do you feel like you're missingout or do you feel like you're
(23:52):
experiencing something great?
Speaker 2 (23:59):
It is such a radical change in my life to have this
daily grace.
The verse that you readreminded me of when Bob Hochstra
talked about grace upon graceupon grace.
That is so true and relevant inmy heart and in my mind.
(24:20):
I apply it to my work meetingsall the time.
When I'm sitting down having aone-on-one with somebody, I
never know where God's going totake that conversation with them
.
Or when I'm sitting down withour kids at dinner table, we
have no idea where ourconversations are going to go.
Sometimes we go off intoincredible left field bizarre
(24:41):
conversations where we find outthat my daughter wants to be a
grape digger when she grows up.
Just craziness that we go upinto.
But it all comes back to thatgrace of the Lord.
When I am there just revelingin my relationship with Christ
through His grace of abundantlove over me, it's surreal.
(25:06):
There's nothing else thatmatters in the world.
You don't feel like you'remissing out on anything because
you're not.
You've got all that you need.
You've got the entirety of thepower of Jesus Christ at your
fingertips, at your back andcall.
When you are immersed in thatdaily grace of His life, You're
(25:29):
not feeling.
Oftentimes, when I was learningthe grace or growing up and I
failed.
I felt this guilt, thisoverwhelming guilt that I had
failed my father, that I hadfailed my God, and then learning
(25:49):
about this grace, it's like no.
I don't need to feel that guilt,because that guilt is not
coming from God.
It can't come from God becauseI'm in a bunch of this word, but
I think it's propitiation,where God poured out His
unending wrath onto Jesus on thecross and Jesus took all of
that wrath and sent it to hell,came back, and so God literally
(26:13):
has no anger left for me, so Idon't have to feel any of that
anger.
I'm not going to live a perfectlife, but I know that I'm going
to live a grace-filled lifebecause I can always come back
to those hands, even if I'm theone who strays.
It's always open because I'mcovered through the blood of
Jesus and I have access to thatall the time.
(26:36):
So yeah long answer to yourshort question.
No, I don't feel like I'mmissing it.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
What does, what does church look like for you these
days?
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Church is fantastic.
God has just continued to growin my life as far as what church
is.
And the Bible says we're two ormore gathered, that's church.
And so we have a teeny, tinylittle home church.
There's five of us plus my fourkids, so nine congregation in
total, and we meet at my houseon Sundays and it is fantastic
(27:16):
because it's all about communityand relationship Relationship
with the other people in mychurch, but also relationship
with my God, which, as I said,that's what drives me, that's
what I am focused on.
That's why I'm in businessdevelopment.
At end crediting, that's whyI'm good at my job is because
(27:37):
I'm very good at therelationship side of things.
I don't do well with paperwork,I don't do well with my new
chef.
Every single verse that I'veever read I can't just you know.
I know other people on thispodcast have spattered off
verses, but that's not who I am.
I'm so much more of the touchy,feely relationship, like, yeah,
people are awesome untilthey're not, but even then I
(27:59):
still kind of like them becausethey're different than I can
have that relationship and so,yeah, it's a very much a
relationship based church.
We study books of the Bible, butwe have the fluidity too, if
somebody comes and they'restruggling with something and
this has happened so many timesin our church.
Somebody has come and they saidI am struggling with this right
(28:22):
now, and we say, great, we takeit, we throw our conversation
out and we said let's talk aboutthis today.
What does the Bible say?
We lay on hands, we pray overthem, we do communion, we do, we
eat together.
So we have two different typesof communion.
We have the weekly communion,where everyone brings, you know,
bits and pieces of food.
(28:43):
Everyone's bringing the bread,we're providing the meat, other
people bring the dessert andwe're just talking about our
weeks and growing andunderstanding and holding each
other accountable.
Like, hey, last week you saidyou were going to talk to Frank
at work.
How did that go?
I didn't do it yet.
Okay, try again this week.
Okay, we're going to.
(29:05):
You know, iron sharpens iron.
We're able to continue withthat and it's been incredible
just to watch.
I think one of the bestrealizations that I've had about
the incredible power of ourhome church is watching my
children blossom into being partof our congregation.
(29:29):
They are not, you know, keptoff to the side doing their own
thing.
Yes, they'll do their own thingbecause they're kids, but we
oftentimes have an activitythat's incorporated into it.
Like last week, we had a puzzlepiece and I took one of each of
the kids' puzzle pieces andstuck it in my pocket.
So while they were trying to dothe puzzle, they were missing
(29:50):
something.
There was a piece that wasmissing and that tied into the
message that I was talking tothe adults about, and I handed
them the piece about threequarters of the way through so
they could finish their puzzle,and it was this whole thing.
So there's been many times wherethe churches sitting around
talking about things that theystruggled with and it's
(30:10):
something my kiddos havestruggled with and so they raise
their little hands and we callon them and say, yeah, what do
you have to say?
And sometimes they go off intoleft field, but other times they
have this poignant message froma child, just the most like oh
yeah, that is exactly what I'mgoing through.
You're right, and here's whatI've done to work on that.
(30:31):
What have you tried?
You've tried that.
Okay, maybe try this.
And it's just this wholecommunity of believers who are
growing together and I love thatand I think it's fantastic.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
Awesome, so that's, that's really beautiful.
I've done home church as wellfor a while and I can't stop
talking about how wonderful itreally is.
I love all the church you know,and no matter where people are
going or how they're, you know,connecting, I think that the
(31:09):
message of grace is really whatpeople need to hear.
As you're out there and asyou're meeting people and you
start talking about grace, doyou think people are getting it?
Do you think that it's a neededmessage?
Do you think you're a messengerthat is out there talking to
people about grace, or how doyou see that happening as you're
(31:33):
out there talking to so manypeople?
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Yeah, everybody needs it.
That's the bottom line.
Everybody needs this, the dailygrace.
Some people get it better thanothers, but all of us need it
because none of us have masteredwhat grace is, and I know that
there are people that I'vetalked to that are right on the
(31:57):
cusp of getting it, but theydon't have.
There's a lot of people I talkto that just don't even have the
message of the gospel message.
They understand the grace thingbecause they know what we need
to love everybody.
Yes, but yes, and is actuallythe phrase that we use now.
Yes, and you also need thebasis cornerstone of Christ and
(32:18):
those that do have Christ.
There's a lot of them that Alsotry and give me the yes.
And when I'm talking, let's sayI'm talking about home church
Been talking to some peopleabout home church and they're
like well, how do you do worship?
There's only nine of you, whatdo you do?
I'm like Well, we put up aYouTube with the words, which is
great, because I was the wordguy at a church and it didn't go
(32:41):
over very well.
I miss words like every singlesong.
And I was I wasn't mocked, butit was not a good thing, like
people were not following alongbecause I didn't know what I was
doing, so that was great.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
So now you do to your face.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Yeah, we did mock you to your face, it was no, not to
my face, exactly I was justtold me after words exactly, and
oftentimes I would mock myselfto my face because I'm like guys
, I totally did not know wherethat song was going and our good
friend Chris would be over andhe'd be like slide 33 Thanks,
(33:17):
okay.
Okay, I still.
But so you know, somebody askedme well, how do you, how do you
do worship in your church?
And I'm like we throw up aYouTube video and there's the
words that are on there and it'sa communal singing.
We're all singing at the top ofour lungs in the middle of the
home church.
So there are people that thinkyou have to do not that there's
(33:38):
anything wrong with that styleof worship.
That is a message for a lot ofpeople.
But what's wrong is whensomebody says that that's the
only way to do it and they thinkthat their way of doing it is
the Way that there's.
No, I was there.
I had that's hard, hard, whereI thought my way was the only
way, and God was able to work inthat and realize that there is
(34:00):
a lot of things for a lot ofpeople.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
So you've kind of developed your own like
expression of what church is Iswithin your own little culture
that you got going on there.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
And it's fantastic because we did the, the guests
of the spirit, the little quizand no shock at all the, the one
person that really, reallyaccelerated in the what was the
gift?
I can't remember what it wascalled, but it was like the, the
one who is an extrovert whowould go talk to all the people.
(34:37):
There's only one person in ourchurch who, who is specifically
gifted in talking with a bunchof random people, and that was
me and shocker and everyone elseso was gifted in all these
other ways like administrationand organization and Worship and
and all these and children'sministry.
(34:57):
I know that's not a gift of thespirits first day, but it is
what our church needed and we'reable to say, okay, well, you
were gifted with admin, so we'renot going to make this guy sit
there and try and write astatement of faith, because
that's not going to go well foranybody.
He's just going to use chat,gpt and it's going to be really
weird and confusing.
So let's have somebody who'sgifted in that way be able to
(35:19):
develop and develop thestatement of faith.
And when it comes to likeworship music, I'm empowered
through my church that theworship that we play, the
communion worship, isn't the,the music that touches my soul,
but I know that it's okay for meto sing at the top of my lungs,
worship the Lord in my own way.
(35:41):
And when I get in my car thevery next day and I'm driving to
work, I turn on my type ofmusic, which is the skillet, you
know, jesus head banging kindof music, and that's how I
worship the Lord and that's okaybecause that's how God has made
me and that's how I communewith him.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
Not gonna throw on some skillet in the church.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
I tried and they vetoed me.
I came close.
I put on some disciple on therelike Alright, we're gonna let
this one pass and I'm like sweet, but if you do it again, we're
on to you Okay.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
Hey, that's pretty cool.
That's pretty cool.
Oh man, that's awesome.
All right, so what does thefuture hold, the next five years
, for Benjamin BK Martin andyour family?
Speaker 2 (36:34):
That is.
That is the question.
I barely know what I'm going todo tomorrow.
So future, I Think it's just sowe've been doing a I devotional
on Sundays, me and the boys,and it's called the the five
(36:55):
thing the five dangers of ofgrowing up, and they take these
kids a whole little video seriesand they take these kids to To
a little camp out and andthey're, you know, practically
teaching these young boys whatthe five dangers are.
And the first danger so far hasbeen pride, and we've got four
(37:16):
more to go.
But one of the things they saidin this Bible study was the
choices that you make To my kids, choices you guys make in the
next five to seven years, willcompletely alter the entire
history of your life.
So I think for me in the nextfive years it's really going to
(37:37):
be focused on Showing the graceof the Lord to my kids and what
that looks like for them.
I know that sports are going tostart being a thing.
So how do we show grace in oursports, how do we show grace in
our church?
How do we show grace in ourprograms and then all of these
different pieces.
So really just training them upfor the next five years, so
(38:00):
that when they do hit theteenage years and they don't
want to listen to dad anymoreI'm sure it's going to happen
before five years anyway butwhen they get to that point they
at least have some, some basisthat we were able to etching to
them.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Wow, that's really cool, man.
You have such a vision forparenting.
I feel like so many people andI've struggled with it too it's
just surviving the day.
It's just surviving the day,and I know you've had those days
too where the day was so hard.
(38:37):
It's hard to have a real visionfor what the future may hold.
But I asked you that questionon purpose, because I know you
and I know that you really thinkabout the big picture with
parenting so much more thananyone.
I know you really do that, andso that's one of the things I
(39:00):
admire most about you.
So well done.
I think you're an example tomany people of how to parent
with grace, and when we sayparenting with grace, I just
want to clarify that doesn'tmean just being nice to your
kids all the time.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
No, it does not.
There are.
I can expand on that a littlebit, because the thing I always
like to tell people is that I amnot raising subservient
children.
I am not raising yes, sirchildren that follow every word
that I say.
That's not a grace-basedparenting style, because that's
not what God asks of us.
I am raising future adults.
(39:40):
I am raising kids that canbecome adults, that can go into
the world and deal with problemsthat arise and deal with issues
that exist, because they aregoing to have people that are
not nice to them.
They're going to have bossesthat are not nice to them.
And if you're raising your kidsright now with I'm gonna choose
(40:01):
my words carefully there's a lotof people that are raising kids
without that level of grace,without that understanding that
there are consequences toactions.
God gives us consequences basedon the actions that we have,
and if we are continuing to poopoo that and say, no, there are
no consequences for the choicesthat you make, when they become
(40:24):
adults, they're going to expectthat there are no consequences,
and that's just not the way thatGod made this world.
So you need to be able to helpyour kids along so that they can
be productive members of thesociety and be kids that
understand.
Yes, trials and tribulationsare going to come up.
My dad and my mom they taughtme how to handle this when I was
(40:45):
younger.
What do I need to do?
Oh, yeah, go back to God andget their grace, and get his
grace, and he will help methrough it.
So helping them understand thatin a practical way has been
what grace parenting is for me.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
So it's teaching them how to have that relationship
with God.
You know, it says in John 1, 16that Jesus, when he came, came
and he was full of grace andtruth, and it sounds like that's
kind of what you werehighlighting is like, yeah, I'm
giving my kids truth, where I'mgiving them the reality of what
(41:23):
this world is, but then alsoteaching them and this is the
big part teaching them how tohave a relationship with God
that is effective, to where theyknow how to go to him, how to
get his grace, obtain his grace,so that they can then rise up
to the standard that all peoplehave been called to, the
(41:43):
standard that the law so clearlyand wonderfully declares.
But grace enables us to not onlylive up to that standard, but
actually be lifted above thatstandard, have so much love and
just abounding in life andfruitfulness, and that's what
that relationship that you'regiving you're teaching your kids
(42:06):
, and that's really the job ofevery pastor.
You're just being the pastor ofyour family and you're a good
pastor.
You know you do a good job ofdoing that.
And that's the hardest peopleto pastor is your own family,
because they know how dumb youare And-.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
They see it all the time.
Speaker 1 (42:27):
Yeah, how selfish you can be, so, but that means that
when you are yourself dependingon the Lord, they see that and
they see your life filled withhis grace.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
I think if I can add one thing to that, it's the
crazy part about my growth ingrace is that I always thought I
needed to follow a list ofrules.
I always thought that, you know, I shouldn't do that and I
shouldn't do this and Ishouldn't do that.
And when I got this gracemessage, when I got this grace
thing, the insane thing is Idon't do those things.
(43:05):
But the reason behind why Idon't do those things is where
that grace part comes in.
It's not because not doingthose things will make me holy.
It's because God has alreadymade me holy.
So I no longer want to do thosethings.
I no longer have thatrequirement on me to follow a
(43:25):
list of rules because I'm soentrenched in grace and his love
that that doesn't even cross mymind sometimes.
And yeah, Amen.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
That's the perfect description of our how the new
covenant brings transformationfrom the inside.
You know God?
God is not afraid of sayingthere's no rules, you're free,
you're 100% free.
But just know that if you goparticipate in sin, you will not
(44:00):
be happy, you will never beable to live with yourself,
because my Holy Spirit insideyou is stronger than anything
and you won't be able to enjoysin the way that you used to.
So that is how the new covenant, through the power of the Holy
Spirit, really transforms usfrom the inside out.
(44:22):
It's just a beautiful thing andso much different, so much more
powerful than just givingpeople rules and saying do this.
And that's what makes youaccepted by God.
Speaker 2 (44:36):
Yeah, and I mean, if you look at it, if you have a
list of rules again.
I always go back to theparenting because that's the
biggest part of my life.
But if I were to go up to allfour of my kids and say these
are the list of rules that youare not allowed to do, I
guarantee every single one ofthem will find a way to skirt
the rule without breaking one ofthem.
(44:57):
They will find the exception orthe you know technicality that
we'd have to get, and so whatyou would end up having if you
do that with your children isthe list that never ends,
because they're going to findanother way to break one of the
rules and be like, well, that'snot on the list, okay, well, I'm
adding it now, okay, andthey'll find another way to
break it that is not actually onthe list.
And so the grace parentingreally focuses on where's your
(45:21):
heart at, where is your heart inthe choice that you made?
And if your heart is onyourself, that's a problem,
because it needs to be on God,not on mom, not on dad, not on
your sibling, on God, and therest of that comes with it.
So grace parenting reallyfocuses and really hones in on
what that looks like and notjust don't do that, don't do
(45:44):
that, don't do that and yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
Man.
It's a great, great example forall of us who are raising kids.
So thank you, bk, for all thatyou're doing and how the Lord
has been using you.
Speaker 2 (46:00):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
Awesome.
So we're gonna wrap it up here.
I'm probably gonna have you asa guest on again another time to
talk about other things.
Maybe we could talk about workand we could kind of dive into
how God is using you in thatrealm, because I think it's
pretty powerful there too.
But thank you everybody forjoining us.
Bk, you're a gentleman and ascholar and we will talk again
(46:27):
soon.
Everyone, keep growing in grace.
Talk to you later.
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