January 29, 2024 • 44 mins
Embark on a stirring odyssey of spiritual reflection with the Simple Grace podcast, where my friend Nathan Taylor joins us with tales of his extraordinary beginnings and the life-altering embrace of divine grace. Discover how Nathan's poignant story of abandonment and adoption intertwines with his understanding of God's grace, setting a profound backdrop for our conversation on faith's journey. We unpack the essence of John 10:10, contemplating the abundance that grace infuses into our lives, and how our teenage years—rife with awkwardness and striving for acceptance—mirror our early fumbles in grasping spirituality.
As we traverse the landscape of adulthood, marriage, and the personal growth that ensues, we share candidly about the seismic shifts in understanding God's unconditional love, a revelation crystallized during a study of the Book of Romans. This episode is a testament to the power of grace in dismantling the walls of condemnation and insecurity, paving the way for a more authentic and liberating relationship with the divine. Nathan and I explore these themes with the hope of offering insights that resonate with your own spiritual evolution, emphasizing that the journey is as important as the destination.
Concluding this heartfelt episode, we discuss how life's unexpected curveballs, like a sudden home repair, can be transformed into lessons of humility and an unwavering reliance on God. Parenting, too, becomes a dance of discipline and grace, as we aim to guide our children towards their own understanding of faith. I also share reflections on books that have moved me deeply, from thrilling sci-fi adventures to spiritual classics, while Nathan and I muse over Super Bowl excitement and the future aspirations that grace has inspired within us. Join us for this intimate exploration of how humility and grace can anchor a life of faith, offering both solace and strength in the everyday.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
All right.
Thank you everybody for joiningus.
This is the inaugural episodeof the Simple Grace podcast.
I am Sean Rensel and I'm theauthor of Simple Grace, a
handbook for New Covenant Living, and I would love to introduce
our guest for today.
Here we got Nathan Taylor.
I have such great respect andadmiration for you.
(00:28):
We've been dear friends for along time, co.
-laborers.
We ran a church together, ranit straight into the ground, you
might say, Not just kidding.
We had a great time.
And this podcast is about theNew Covenant of Grace and how
(00:48):
it's impacted our lives, and soI'm so excited to hear from you
about how the New Covenant ofGrace has impacted your life and
to just kind of get us kickedoff and to get our brains and
our hearts kind of moving inthat direction, I'd like to read
scripture just kind of remindsus of the goodness of the New
Covenant, and that is John 1010,which says the thief does not
(01:11):
come except to steal and to killand to destroy.
I have come that they may havelife and that they may have it
more abundantly, and Iabsolutely love that and I hope
that that maybe spurs you into aconversation of your life.
So why don't you start at thevery beginning and tell us you
(01:34):
know well, you can introduceyourself more if you want, but
just tell us how it all gotstarted, Nathan.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Oh, it all got started when Nathan Taylor got
his origin story.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Yeah, that's right.
This is our villain or originstory here.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Oh, man, man, I'm the villain.
Let's get well.
First of all, thanks for havingme.
I'm excited to be here.
I'm just excited to see whatthe Lord's going to do through
this podcast.
That's been as we've servedtogether over the years and just
heard your passion for God andHis grace and for seeing people
grow in that grace.
It's just excited to be a partof the next step of that
ministry.
So thanks for having me on, andso this will be a fun
(02:11):
conversation and I like thevirtue pick.
You know that idea of lifeabundant.
You know, I think that's aphrase that we hear a lot in
church and you got your loveabundant life ministries, or you
know that's a phrase you'llhear in in church entity, but I
think the idea of grace bringsthat concept alive, right, like
it's a life abundant.
What is that?
That's grace in our lives, andso I love, I love starting there
(02:34):
.
Well, you might say that mylife is a story that starts with
grace, right, I think you knowthat's what you're getting at.
I was, I was a found abandonedin a cardboard box in front of a
doctor's office in Westminster,colorado, in 1983.
So many people when they hearthat, they're like, oh, I'm so
sorry and no how terrible.
(02:54):
But you know I look at it asjust another piece of God's
grace got out of plan.
Yet a purpose.
Out there somewhere there's amy you know my birth mom.
She had a plan, she had apurpose.
You know, abortions wereavailable at that season.
She, she chose to have me.
She chose to, you know, makesure I was in a safe place.
(03:15):
And back then there were.
There were no safe harbor laws.
You couldn't just leave a babyat a fire station and I mean you
were, you're gonna get arrested.
That was illegal, it wasagainst the law.
There was no quick and easyways to say, hey, I want this
child to live but it, but notwith me, I can't do this.
It was a long, drawn outprocess and so for, for whatever
the circumstances were, shepicked that and it was the grace
(03:38):
of God that the she put me infront of the ear, nose and
throat doctor instead of theOBGYN next door, brand new
office complex, and the ear,nose and throat doctor had moved
into his building.
But he came by to check on onon the construction that cold
day in April and found this boxand thought, oh, the
(03:58):
construction workers leftsomething, picked up the box and
inside was a little baby, andhe's convinced that somewhere
there was somebody around somecorner watching just to make
sure that that box was picked upand was right around the corner
from St Anthony's North, wasbrought over there and was was
cared for by a sweet lady there.
(04:19):
I've met the doctor, I've metthe lady who took care of me and
kind of got to connect some ofthose dots a few years ago and
really need to meet them, andbut I'm just convinced that the
Lord had a purpose right there.
He already said hey, I have a,I have a path for you.
My adoptive family which is aweird thing to say, that's not
how I see the world right there,not my, they're my family, my
(04:41):
family, my mom she had an oldersister who also has an adoption
story of of being abandoned, andso when my mom saw the story in
the news because this was bignews that a baby got left in
hospital in front of thedoctor's office in 1983 in
Denver, that was, that wasnewspaper worthy, and so she saw
that article and kind of feltthe story and so she started
(05:01):
bugging the county and said hey,we've already adopted one kid,
we adopt this kid, they're like,ah, it doesn't work that way
and you know you're allowed todo foster, to adopt and all
these things.
And 41 years later she's my momand that's the family I was
raised in.
So ended up with that familyand certainly thereafter got
adopted adopted, you know, by, Ithink by about time I was a
(05:23):
year old and you know myfamily's full of of crazy
stories, of of adopted kids.
I'm one of eight and we're alladopted, so yeah, wow, that's
incredible.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
So so Fast forward with me through your life, and
what kind of upbringing did youhave when it came to
spirituality and what was yourview of God and how to live a
life that impressed God or wasfor God?
(05:56):
What did that look like for you?
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Yeah, great question.
My family loved the Lord.
It was really clear.
I mean, my parents raised menot only just in the church, but
I knew about Jesus, mygrandparents I consider my
family's legacy of faith reallyto go back to my great grandma
and some of my greatgrandparents but my, in my life,
my grandparents were clearlythat spiritual center of our
(06:20):
family.
I mean, every time you were atgrandpa's house he was reading
the Bible to you with dinner andtelling us how much he loved us
and like faith was part of ourfamily culture to the point that
I don't remember being saved.
As long as I can remember, Iknew that Jesus loved me.
There was just no question thatJesus loved me.
And as soon as I couldunderstand this idea of asking
(06:41):
Jesus into my heart whateverthat means to a four year old
and whatever sort of weirdthings we've attached to that as
Western Christians but I didthat I was like, yeah, whatever
I'm in, I want this Jesus thing.
And so at an early age I wantedto follow the Lord and was
baptized.
I think by the time I was 12 andwas just all in on serving the
(07:02):
Lord, grew up in a veryconservative family home, school
family, very sheltered and alsokind of embraced that.
I was not a normal kid.
I didn't fit in well.
I was reading books about DavidLivingston and being a
missionary in Africa while kidswere thinking about football.
I grew up a little differentthan everybody else and I really
(07:25):
wanted to serve the Lord.
I had dreams of being amissionary.
I really wanted to seek the Lord, but I didn't know how and I
don't know that my parents dohow to teach grace.
I don't know how deeply theyunderstood it.
I know they understood it.
My dad could explain grace, butI don't know that.
It was always something thatfiltered into their parenting,
which I think is reallyimportant to think about your
(07:47):
parenting representing Jesus.
And if you teach, if you raiseyour children with legalism,
they will not understand graceright.
We have to teach our childrengrace even through how we
interact with them.
We need to interact and emulateChrist and I think it was
missing some of that.
There was a lot of thatconservative 90s Christian hey,
(08:07):
we don't watch PG-13 movies andthat's how we're gonna become
pure, by not being a part of theculture and so I very much
tried harder and struggled withthings like a teenager and just
didn't know what to do.
I had these desires.
I had this desperate desire toserve the Lord and to be holy,
but I could not find theresources inside of me to do it
(08:28):
and so it would just try harder.
And I'm a teenager and I'mfasting and I'm praying and I'm
reading the Bible and justtrying everything I can try.
I'm going to more altar callsat the youth retreat than
everybody else.
You know, I'm just reallytrying to figure out what was
the magic answer to get thisthing in me that the Bible says
(08:50):
is possible.
But I'm not finding in me, so inmany ways, a great foundation
of the scripture and faith andknowing God was real.
I mean, one of the big thingsmy dad did with me is we talked
a lot about creation and I goback to that often, that
creation science background,when I questioned my faith.
Just look outside and go.
There's just no stinking way.
(09:11):
This is all you know.
Accident, you know, billions ofyears of death and suffering
produced this.
It doesn't make sense.
And so you know, if I had thisgrounding where I knew God was
real, I knew he loved me, I knewthe theology, I just was
missing all of the resources andthe power behind it.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
So hearing that it's fascinating and I would love to
kind of dig a little deeper intothat and kind of the feelings
you had.
And how did you know that youwere not getting it?
Like what were you goingthrough?
That you were like this isn'tit?
And if we could just kind ofbring in that scripture that we
(09:52):
just read again and maybe youjust kind of use that as the
lens that we look at thisthrough?
Like the thief comes to steal,kill and destroy.
But Jesus said I have come thatthey may have life and have it
more abundantly.
So in that time that you'respecifically referencing, what
do you see there?
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Yeah, I think some.
There were a couple reallythings that stick out in looking
back on that.
The first one is just how youperceive God.
I think there was just a strongperception that God was
disappointed in me and I wantedto try harder and I wanted to
(10:35):
please him, but I just didn'thave a context to believe that
God could be happy with me, andso it was what else can I do to
make God happy?
I wanted him to be pleased withme.
I wanted him I know he loves mefrom a like I'm God and I'm
loving, but I didn't feel loved.
It wasn't like like man, I feelGod's love.
I know God loves me.
And I felt very conflicted ofjust like what's wrong with me
(10:58):
and why is this not working?
I learned some weird habitsthat I think a lot of people do,
of if I didn't have somethingto confess, there was something
wrong.
Like looking for things toconfess and I've run into other
believers since then.
Of just like I've got somethingto confess and it's like,
(11:19):
unless I've been fully confessedevery single thing to every
person I know that is in anyposition of authority.
That's why God's not blessingme.
And like these things where,again, they're all focused on me
and my actions.
Something's wrong with me, Ineed to do something, I've
missed something, I haven'tconfessed something and very,
very self-focused because that'swhere I was going to find this
(11:42):
right and I think the bigsymptoms were the real things
that really kind of were strong,were just stuff that teenage
boys struggle with.
That I didn't want to strugglewith anymore and go in.
I want to be done with this.
I don't want to live in thisway.
I don't want to be.
I have this as a part of mylife and a week later you're
back there and going.
Well, man, I'm so far fromwhere I want to be and I don't
(12:05):
know where to go with this.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
All right.
So what you're describing isteenage boys are terrible at
relationships and what we havehere is a relationship with God
and teenage.
It's hard.
When we're our teenager wedon't even know how to have
(12:29):
relationships with real people,let alone people like girls, who
we really value what they thinkabout us at that time, or
anybody.
And then there's this Godmythical God creature almost
that we are told that we'resupposed to have a relationship
but we have no context for whatthat relationship is supposed to
look like and I think a lot ofus struggle.
(12:52):
I identify with so much of whatyou're saying because I thought
I was supposed to impress,because that's kind of what I
did with my parents, my ownparents.
I wanted to impress them and Ididn't want to disappoint them,
and that was the context of myrelationship, and so I just laid
that context or that paradigmover God, and so now I'm
(13:16):
thinking I need to impress himor not impress him and it just
became this really weird thing.
So then we do what really smartpeople would do.
We would add getting marriedinto that.
So tell us about that nextphase of your life.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Yeah, once again, the Lord being very gracious with
me and having a plan for my life, he orchestrated some variables
and turned 18 and I was out andnew life, new opportunities
just changed my world.
And I think it was a real gift,because growing up in a
sheltered family, I think youcan struggle to find your
(13:58):
independence and your wings andyou're like I'm me now and he
really did that and he gave mekind of a simple structure in my
life that really forced somechange in my character.
You know some of these thingsI'm struggling with.
Sometimes God's gracious andsays, hey, I'm not gonna change
it from the inside, I'm gonnachange it from the outside.
And he did some of that to kindof put me in a new place where
(14:18):
I had to grow up quickly, had tonew, change some habits.
And during that season I met mywife.
We dated for four years andshe's the sweetest, most
gracious young lady you couldimagine and she was very
gracious with me and I washonest about who I am and where
(14:42):
I'm at and we wrestled throughlife and grew and she had her
own challenges and, yeah, theLord was just really gracious to
allow us, to kind of allow meto grow up very quickly through
those years get a job, get acareer, start to live
independently.
And then we got married andsomehow I had some decent skills
(15:04):
in being a husband, I think.
I think I was okay at that,beginning Lots of areas to grow,
but she's so easy to get alongwith.
I think that also helped thatshe was very gracious with any
of my shortcomings.
But we had a wonderful marriageand we really had a desire to
start serving the Lord.
So we started to plug in todifferent ministries, trying to
(15:27):
serve and this is even before Imet you.
You and I have ever talked aboutthis season but we served at a
church that she grew up in andthey wanted to plan a plan a
campus, and that didn't go verywell for various reasons.
That kind of pushed us away fromthat church, just how that went
, and we ended up at anotherchurch and then I really plugged
(15:52):
in and said, hey, I'm ready tostart serving and I started
serving in different ministries.
And that was kind of a reallypivotal moment in my faith is
those first few years at thatchurch, because first of all
they were teaching throughRomans and so getting to be
taught verse by verse, chapterby chapter, week by week,
(16:12):
through Romans, open my eyesmassively, because that book's
all about grace, it's just this.
It's like, hey, let's gothrough the first.
You know seven chapters of thisbook about your flesh and what
you can get out of it, and it'sabsolutely nothing.
And just reading that one,that's me yes, I know that I've
been there, I've done that andthen learning about, you know,
this amazing moment of like.
(16:33):
There is therefore now nocondemnation to Christ.
This moment in the book or thebook of it, and I can remember
being, you know, 20, 25, 28 yearold person sitting there, going
would.
I could pray that and say, hey,god, you promised me that
there's no condemnation, so Ican come before you and look at
you and say any condemnation Ifeel is not from God, it's from
(16:54):
my flesh or the devil and it's alie.
I mean that was just pivotalmoments for me of wow, I can go
before God and not have toconfess things, like not that we
shouldn't confess things, butlike confession is not the
prerequisite for God loving me.
God loves me because of who Iam.
Prerequisite is just part ofmaintaining a good relationship
(17:17):
with him and kind of dealingwith the things in my life and
just moments where the Lord'sjust like.
There's a whole new world ofrelationship available that's
not based on your choices, it'snot you focused, it's not about
you or your actions or your sins, sins or your shortcomings or
you trying harder.
I've got everything from soupto nuts and just remember that
(17:39):
season being very sweet, of juststarting to understand the
peace and the hope and the joy Icould have in a God who
actually loves me and in someways my actions almost don't
matter.
It's all about him, and thatwas a really powerful season for
me to learn that, and reallyfruitful.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
So you're saying that the enemy tries to steal and
kill and destroy our spirituallife by condemnation and all
these feelings that we have andall these feelings of insecurity
and ways that we feel like weneed to impress God, and yet the
(18:24):
truth is God is just gracious.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Yeah, it's incredible right.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Yeah, then I think we kind ofconnected pretty soon there at
that church and after, and thatwas just really sweet because I
got to see your family grow.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Yeah Well, before we pivot to that, I wanna hit one
more thing that we go pay off inthe conversation.
So one of the other things thathappened during that season was
, personally, I was starting tounderstand, god's grace.
And I was also starting to servein ministry, and so I was
mentoring a younger man, I wasleading a home Bible study, and
(19:07):
I quickly realized that I didnot have the answers, and that
was a very unnerving moment oflike all right, take this young
new believer under your arm.
They're like well, I'mstruggling and I don't know what
to do and how do I become abetter person?
And even though I'm learningthese lessons, I haven't learned
how to apply them in ministryand I can almost hear myself in
(19:29):
retrospect say well, you shouldtry harder and let's do more.
And like all these lessons thatI still hadn't had being out of
my thinking, cleaned out of myspiritual, theological
perspective, we're starting tocome out in my very young just
trying to love on and disciple ayounger man in Christ.
(19:51):
That poor man, he just gotterrible advice after terrible
advice.
He just still didn't understandhow to apply this.
So you're saying, oh yeah,you're broken.
Go dig deeper, go look insideof you, for just stop it, don't
do that, and I'll try harder.
All these things that come verynaturally because, they're
(20:12):
flesh.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
And you feel so good after you give that advice like
ha, if they just listened to me,everything would be all right.
I have a very similar situationwhere I was teaching this Bible
study when I was 19, and it wasin the basement of my house and
there's all these highschoolers and I'm like do this,
don't do this, do this, don't dothis.
(20:34):
And this one sweet little girlraise your hand.
She says that all sounds great,but how do we do that?
And I had no idea how to answerher and I just said I think
we're supposed to try as hard aswe can.
And that was my honest opinion.
And God radically transformedthat, like maybe a few months
(20:55):
after that, when I showed up atBible college and Bob Hoekstra's
teaching in the growing ingrace class and transformed my
life.
But yeah, at that moment Ithought I was supposed to try
harder.
That's all I had.
That was my whole perspective,same as you.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Yeah, yeah, it's so easy to just fall into that.
And then I remember I asked thepastor hey, what should I teach
in our little home Bible study?
They're like teach first John.
It's easy.
Just start there, go read firstJohn and think about somebody
who doesn't know what to teachand also doesn't understand
grace.
And it's all these verses aboutbe holy as I'm holy and be
(21:35):
loving as I'm loving.
And if anybody doesn't love hisbrother and like John talks in
such black and white, inbeautiful language, but unless
you have the context of grace,you're like I don't know, I got
nothing.
I don't know what to do withthis section.
I remember feeling so inadequateto lead these people in this
book of first John and some ofhis writing style and just going
(21:59):
, I don't have a clue, I don'tknow, because what he's talking
about there it doesn't look likeyou and it doesn't look like me
.
But he says if you're not that,then you missed the boat.
All right, well, I'm sorry andjust it's incredible to you know
, with the Lord also, I think,uses that stuff to be like okay,
nathan, you need right now,just I need to break you of any
(22:24):
dependency on self right, and Ithink that was a big part of
what he was doing.
It was just saying you gotnothing.
You're learning that personallyand you're learning to depend
on me.
I'm gonna do that in anyministry you do from now on.
You're never gonna have thatcrotch of like try harder, or I
understand it.
I'm gonna impart God's powerfulwisdom into how my
(22:44):
understanding of theology isgonna be the thing that changes
you, as this person that'scoming to me for advice which
I'm grateful for because veryquickly it became well, let's go
to Jesus because he's theanswer and he has the answers
and we can look at scripture.
But it's all about him and likethat breaking of any sort of
wisdom that I might have was areal gift, right, because I
(23:07):
could never rely on it, becausefrom the first day it was clear
I couldn't take what was inscripture and use it to make
them better, like only God coulddo that.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
So yeah, well, this is a podcast that you know.
We try to revolve around thenew covenant of grace and how to
apply it and what our journeywas, and kind of going from this
self-centered way of thinkingabout God and then it translates
(23:36):
into ministry.
So you experience that and thenyou kind of get this revelation
.
What was that for you?
How did that?
It may have been a big thing,it might have been a slow thing,
but what did that look like foryou?
Speaker 2 (23:55):
I think it's just something that's opened up over
time, of just the incrediblegift of who God promising to be.
Every aspect of it, I mean he'sthe source of anything good in
our life.
He's the source of the change.
(24:16):
Anything good that does comefrom us is from him, and even
the freedom of just, whenthere's things in my life that
aren't good, just trusting him.
You know, as you start tounderstand this idea, that it's
like it almost feels cliche tosay it, but like it's all about
him.
He's the point of it.
He provides it.
It's his grace, it's his love,it's his spirit working in you,
(24:37):
it's his power.
When there's things in my life,I don't have to be disappointed
to go look, I'm broken again.
It's almost a rejoicing of likeyep, there it is, I knew that's
there.
But there's more broken.
It's great, god.
What are you gonna do with that?
You know how are you gonnasolve that?
We had something happen at ourhouse this week.
The sewer line just died.
50 year old sewer line done.
(25:00):
You know many, many zeros onthat dollar sign and you know,
even to that level of my life.
Now I'm like okay, God, we geta new sewer line.
How are you gonna provide Likeit's all on you.
It's all the same lesson thatany challenge in my life,
anything that I don't have theresources for money or energy or
(25:21):
time or wisdom, it's God'sproblem.
He's already promised to carryit all and that's really freeing
to just be like man.
This is all about Jesus and youjust start to expect him to
work in your life and to provehimself faithful and then, if it
doesn't work out the way youthink, then he's got something
else planned, but it's still hisproblem and it's really freeing
(25:44):
to just be like okay, god, it'sall you, everything revolves
around you and there's just alot of hope and peace and joy in
that.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Yeah, I think I use the term surrender a lot for
that aspect, because,relationally with God, you have
two things going on right thatyou have the humility that
you're saying God, I need you.
Right, and that's definitelyone aspect of grace.
God gives grace to the humble,but he opposes the proud James 4
(26:17):
, 6, 1 Peter 5, 5, and thenthere's faith in that, where
you're saying not only God do Ineed you, but God I'm gonna
choose to trust in you, becauseif I trusted myself, I know that
that's not gonna go well, nomatter how much I think I'm
reliable, I'm not, and that'sthe big lie that Satan got into
(26:43):
Adam and Eve way back in Eden isyou don't need God for all
these decisions, and God waslike I made you to be completely
dependent on me as yourheavenly father, and you've
described what that looked like,what that felt like, and even
until today, you're still kindof growing in that and living in
(27:06):
that.
So has God ever let you down?
Has God ever disappointed you?
Speaker 2 (27:15):
That's a really good question and I think I think you
know for those things humanly,yes, there's been moments when
they're like, okay, god, Iexpected more.
Or I'm struggling again and youknow that's not really God
letting me down.
In those times it's.
You know I'm walking into theflesh where I'm not really
(27:36):
depending on him.
One of the big lessons I thinkin the last couple years has
been the part of depending onhim is seeking him enough that
he could work in my life, ifthat makes any sense.
That like, if I'm not in theword enough, if I'm not in
(27:58):
prayer enough, then my flesh isgoing to be a bigger part of
what I'm depending on, becausethat's the default that's always
there and unless I'm going andtaking on my cross and dying to
myself and getting in the word,allowing his word to be that
conduit for him to work in mylife, you know I can see the
difference in my life andthere's been depth-suppointing
(28:19):
seasons where it's like, oh, Iwas walking in the flesh there
and I can see that and you knowthat's not disappointment in God
but maybe moments where like,well, where are you, god, and
why is this hard and why am Istruggling?
And kind of then coming backand realize a lot of it comes
down to what I am depending onand I.
I think he brings you throughseasons to bring you deeper and
deeper, to break you up deeperand deeper levels of
(28:40):
self-dependence, and I thinkparenting has been a real lesson
of you know, every day, tryingto listen to the parenting I'm
giving and saying, is this isthis me telling my children to
try harder, or telling mychildren to seek the Lord?
And it's more complicated inthat area, because there is some
(29:03):
level of.
I am supposed to discipline mykids and I do need to have
standards and they do need tohave consequences.
So how do you balance realconsequences and their will?
Because oftentimes that's theissue they're unwilling to obey.
Right, there's a, there's abattle of the will, there's a,
but even then sometimes theycan't change their will anymore
(29:24):
than I can change mine.
So how am I pointing them toJesus without becoming becoming
hokey?
Right, I don't want to be.
Well, just let's pray andthat'll keep you from smacking
your sister.
No, that's not necessarily theright answer.
At that time and it's been fun,like recently, our 10 year old
has had like some really wildconversations with me.
(29:44):
Dad I have I mean, he literallyverbalized this that, dad, I
have these things inside of methat I want to do, that I don't
want to do.
I don't.
I'm fighting with my owndesires and I feel terrible and
I, and just like this greatstuff where, like the Lord, he's
feeling conviction, he's seeingwhat God standard is, he knows
(30:04):
he's not capable of it and justpraying that I don't, you know
bumble those moments.
The point of Jesus of like thisis like welcome to the rest of
your life, buddy.
You're going to, you're goingto help to deal with some of
this and God will be faithfulwhen you depend on him.
And you know, just praying alot.
I think that's probably thebiggest thing.
I, my heart is heavy for us justthat I would be faithful and
(30:26):
teaching my children about gracethrough my parenting, that that
when they're done there, theydon't ever come back and say,
well, dad had a lot of rules, oryou know dad was mean, or dad
was really strict, or dad.
But like I want them to say, no,dad, never let me forget how
much God loved me and howfaithful he is and how powerful
his grace is.
That's what I want them to walkaway with it from with with
(30:47):
kind of that, that, that hopeand that understanding.
You know, having grown up inthat that 90s conservative
Christian world, I think you andI both have a lot of friends we
know that were sheltered andwe're told that this is the way
to be a good Christian andthey're very far from the Lord
now.
And I don't want, you know, Iwant nothing less.
(31:08):
You'd almost, you'd almostrather your kids be the prodigal
son and really live for theworld in there.
Right, because that's just a,you know, like I want nothing to
do with whatever it is myparents had, I want nothing to
deal with it, you know, andthat's, that's heartbreaking.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
So, yeah, so I have.
I have six boys, you know, anda couple of prodigals right now,
but over this last summer, youknow, one of my boys was born
again.
He's he's 20 in a in a reallypowerful way.
It was so amazing.
It's been a source of joy in mylife that that you know I've
(31:46):
shared with you privately, andit's just, it's, it's something
that nothing can get me downbecause of what God has done in
his life, and it's, it's, it isso neat to have your kids.
So how many kids do you got?
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Three kids 10, 6, and 3.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
So and I and I imagine they're all perfectly
obedient at all times and justwonderful in every way.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
They're very, very human.
It's great.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
Well good, they share in our, they share in our
brokenness.
So you mentioned something thatI thought was worth kind of
going deeper with, and that isthe importance of reading the
Bible and prayer.
So you know it can, it can soeasily become like a law and a
(32:42):
rule and then you can startdepending on yourself in it, but
explain the importance of it inyour specifically regarding
your relationship with God,because I I think reading the
Bible and prayer are both toolsthat can really enhance our
(33:03):
relationship with God.
I don't think they're magicalthings.
It's not a magical book that weread and it's not, you know,
saying magic words isn't.
That's not what prayer iseither.
So what are they and why?
Why does that really impactrelationally your daily walk
(33:25):
with God?
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Yeah, I think and this is not theologically
speaking, this is me speakingfrom some Bible.
This is just like my experience.
I think so much of our, ourinteraction with the world, is
this cycle of beliefs, thoughtsand emotions and we control very
(33:51):
little of the cycle and I thinka lot of spiritual warfare
comes against our thoughts, ashe did in the, the, the garden.
The devil likes to just tweaklittle things in our thoughts
and get us a little bit off.
And I think by being in theword it allows the Lord to put
the truth inside of me and itgives it feeds my, my thoughts
(34:16):
and my heart, the truth andlittle nuggets and allows them
to speak and to bring truth backin and from my heart to be
planted in the truth.
And when you've learned grace,you start to read the Bible
differently and like even eventhe Old Testament.
You're reading through thesestories of like, oh the God, of
anger and violence and death,and you're like at at the Bible
(34:37):
I read in the Old Testamentyou're reading a different Old
Testament than me, because thatthat God is gracious for
hundreds of years with horriblepeople who want nothing to do
with him and he begs them andpleads with them and when you
start to understand God's lovefor us and his grace, you can be
reading through some of themost boring sections of the
Bible and also, and you just seethis, this little picture of
(34:59):
God's love for us.
So it's this opportunity forGod in every page, just to go.
This is how much I love you andI've loved every human ever.
This is what I, how I want towork in your life.
This is also my standard foryou, and you're not.
You're not here.
It's a don't.
Don't stop depending on me.
Allow me to work, allow me toconvict you.
It allows them to do so much inmy thought, life and my in my
(35:19):
heart.
Get my pride.
It hits my self dependence, ithits my, you know, getting lost
in my thoughts.
You can just get into thesecycles where you're obsessed
about things and you're thinkingabout things and it's you know,
I got to think about the nextvacation or the next, you know,
paying off, the next data, orall these things that adults,
that our brains get spun up into.
(35:40):
And when you get into Scripture, it just gets us back to God
and what he's doing.
I have a good friend who'sreally pushed me to memorize
Scripture and really challengedme, said hey, like, like, really
go to the memory Scripture.
And I have about a hundredverses that I have memorized.
Right now I'm using the theBible memory app and it's been
(36:00):
great.
It's been something I've beenworking on for about a year and
I swear it's just a big part ofhim changing my heart.
It's like putting those thingsin my heart, even if it's just a
couple of minutes a day.
Those verses are there and theLord can use them and I'm
looking for verses that fit withthe things I'm wrestling with
versus the verses about the liesI know I feel in my heart.
I go find verses that counterthat Like my heart wants to hold
(36:24):
onto this lie.
We're going to go find thatverse that counters it and we're
going to hold on to it andwe're going to get it embedded
in my brain and embedded in myheart.
And I think that's just beenone of the biggest pieces.
When I'm struggling, I can I candirectly trace it to am I
spending time in the word,allowing God to work in my heart
?
And then, of course, prayer isthat opportunity to spend time
(36:44):
talking with Him.
I wrestle with God in prayer alot.
I really wrestle with my beliefin who he is Like.
I still want to talk to him athim.
I want to ask him things Ireally wrestle a lot these days
with, like what are my prayersabout and what is God, what
should that look like, and do Iworship him and why do I worship
(37:05):
him and do I praise him?
And but I think that's all partof it.
It's like really wrestling withlike who God is and who am I
treating him as and what does hewant to reveal to me through
those times.
And you know, when I'm notdoing that, when I'm not
wrestling with him and digginginto his word, you can see it in
my life and my choices and mystruggles and just my thoughts
(37:28):
and just where I'm looking forhope and peace and joy.
You know you catch yourselftrying to find it in all kinds
of places.
You know at you know what'snext article on your social
media.
You know you're looking for thatyou know dopamine hit and you
kind of realize you're like myheart's in the wrong spot again.
I'm not looking for my peaceand joy and satisfaction in
(37:51):
Jesus.
So yeah, that's been the biglesson even the last year, year
and a half is just how importantit is to be in the word and
make that a priority.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
So All right, I'm gonna do some quick hitters.
Okay, All right.
Um top two books that you'veread.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
Top two books that I've read.
My reading is either sciencefiction or the Bible.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
I know.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
I'll read spiritual books and I wish I could read
more, but there's also justlimited time in my life.
So love the Bible.
I think one of my so probablythe book that I've enjoyed the
most recently is Project HailMary, a great science fiction
book.
Really enjoyed that one.
(38:49):
And then there's a couple ofbooks that have been powerful in
my life the last couple ofyears, and one of them I think
you, a couple of them I thinkwe've read together Hudson
Taylor, spiritual secrets.
There's also the book theyfound the secrets.
I've been reading a book calledRevival Fire lately.
That's been really encouragingto me just reading about all the
(39:12):
revivals of the Cool 1500s and1800s and those have all been
really good.
But those are kind of I'll readthem for a little bit and then
not have as much time, so yeah,Okay, this is probably gonna
come out either right before orright after the Super Bowl.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
So who's gonna win the Super Bowl?
Speaker 2 (39:33):
Ooh, ooh, I'm really pulling for the Niners because I
am tired of the Chiefs.
Well, I have to go bettingagainst Patrick Mahomes, that
man, you know that in sixseasons of being the starter.
He's the earliest he's exitedseason is in the AFC
Championship game.
He's never missed the AFCChampionship game.
(39:55):
It's ridiculous yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
That guy.
We've played a lot of seasonsof fantasy football together, so
that's been.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
It's been fun, okay.
So someone locks you in a room,says you're not getting out
until you write a book, acommentary on one book of the
Bible.
What book are you writing andwhat's the title of it?
Speaker 2 (40:17):
Commentary on the book of the Bible.
Oh, I've lost my mind bouncingaround.
I made you learn to like.
Please ask you could see it.
I've bugged you for years untilyou finally taught through it
(40:38):
and you're like oh it's a goodbook.
You're a little bit like themelancholy type than I.
I've always loved that book.
I might say today, job, Ireally am wrestling with Job.
I don't like Job, I don't likeall the commentary and trying to
understand which perspectivethe commentary is coming from.
So maybe if I was locked in aroom, the value would be getting
through Job and understandingall the layers of like it's just
(41:03):
deep man, like all thesearguments foreign against, and
then God's like up here, aboveit all, like no, you're all
wrong about everything.
And that would be the book thatwould be the most truthful for
me to wrestle through, cause I'mnot writing that right now.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
That would be the title.
You're all wrong abouteverything.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
That would be a great title for it.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
Yes, oh, that's amazing.
That's amazing.
Okay, so what's the future holdfor you?
Speaker 2 (41:33):
Future hold for me?
I don't know.
I'm in that season where whereworks very busy and then when
I'm not working, I'm keepinghumans alive and just their
world is everything else.
So that's kind of kind of whereI'm at.
You know, we're trying totrying to serve a church and try
(41:58):
and to.
I think one of the things that'sbeen on our hearts lately, my
wife and I's hearts is to beintentional about investing in
the important people, and what Imean by that is looking in our
life and going I'm going tospend time with my kids, I'm
going to spend time with myparents and my own laws, but who
are the people on the edge ofmy life that that my time would
(42:19):
be valuable outside of thatimmediate group of people?
And then be intentional aboutthat, cause there's so little
time in life that it's hard tomake time for those things.
And if you're not important,you'll realize not intentional,
you'll realize that you'vemissed the important things.
And so we've been talking a lotabout who are the important
people we're investing in, andthere's a, there's a nephew
that's come to mind and a few ofthe key people where we really
(42:41):
want to make time for them.
And so I think if my heart'sgot something on it, it's to be
faithful with the.
The little bit of time we havethat we get to pick where it
goes and make sure it goes tothe right things.
Awesome.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
Well, lastly, I just want to thank you so much for
your time.
I know you are extremely busy.
You like run a giant companyand and, yeah, it's amazing with
all the stuff you do, so thankyou for sharing with us about
the impact that grace has had inyour life.
Anything else that you want toyou wanted to add about grace
(43:16):
and the new covenant?
Well, first of all, thank youfor having me.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
It's fun to get to share on it.
I think if I had to add onelast thing is go read the sermon
on the mount with the idea ofhumility and faith and just
watch how beautiful that sermonis in that context.
for Jesus it's just just takingaway any any pride and any self,
self reliance you might have,and you might have to be able to
(43:44):
do that Self reliance you mighthave, and then saying blessed
are the poor and the hungry andthe lost and the people without
resources, and just go or makeme more like that and just enjoy
even Jesus' words about graceand how much he talks about it
in the sermon on the mount.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
So Awesome, thank you .
That's amazing, because it'samazing how your, your, your
eyes are opened when you readall of scripture, when you
understand the beauty of the newcovenant and the grace of God,
it just changes everything frombeing this burden to being a
blessing.
(44:25):
Right, it's just sotransformative.
It's so amazing.
So well, thank you for being on.
We're going to wrap it up now.
Thank you everyone for joiningus.
It's been a blessing to haveyou with us.
You can connect with us onlineand all kinds of various ways.
It'll be in the tag at the endand talk to you later.
Bye now.
All right.
Thank you everybody for joiningus.
This is the inaugural episodeof the Simple Grace podcast.
I am Sean Rensel and I'm theauthor of Simple Grace, a
handbook for New Covenant Living, and I would love to introduce
our guest for today.
Here we got Nathan Taylor.
I have such great respect andadmiration for you.
(00:28):
We've been dear friends for along time, co.
-laborers.
We ran a church together, ranit straight into the ground, you
might say, Not just kidding.
We had a great time.
And this podcast is about theNew Covenant of Grace and how
(00:48):
it's impacted our lives, and soI'm so excited to hear from you
about how the New Covenant ofGrace has impacted your life and
to just kind of get us kickedoff and to get our brains and
our hearts kind of moving inthat direction, I'd like to read
scripture just kind of remindsus of the goodness of the New
Covenant, and that is John 1010,which says the thief does not
(01:11):
come except to steal and to killand to destroy.
I have come that they may havelife and that they may have it
more abundantly, and Iabsolutely love that and I hope
that that maybe spurs you into aconversation of your life.
So why don't you start at thevery beginning and tell us you
(01:34):
know well, you can introduceyourself more if you want, but
just tell us how it all gotstarted, Nathan.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Oh, it all got started when Nathan Taylor got
his origin story.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Yeah, that's right.
This is our villain or originstory here.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Oh, man, man, I'm the villain.
Let's get well.
First of all, thanks for havingme.
I'm excited to be here.
I'm just excited to see whatthe Lord's going to do through
this podcast.
That's been as we've servedtogether over the years and just
heard your passion for God andHis grace and for seeing people
grow in that grace.
It's just excited to be a partof the next step of that
ministry.
So thanks for having me on, andso this will be a fun
(02:11):
conversation and I like thevirtue pick.
You know that idea of lifeabundant.
You know, I think that's aphrase that we hear a lot in
church and you got your loveabundant life ministries, or you
know that's a phrase you'llhear in in church entity, but I
think the idea of grace bringsthat concept alive, right, like
it's a life abundant.
What is that?
That's grace in our lives, andso I love, I love starting there
(02:34):
.
Well, you might say that mylife is a story that starts with
grace, right, I think you knowthat's what you're getting at.
I was, I was a found abandonedin a cardboard box in front of a
doctor's office in Westminster,colorado, in 1983.
So many people when they hearthat, they're like, oh, I'm so
sorry and no how terrible.
(02:54):
But you know I look at it asjust another piece of God's
grace got out of plan.
Yet a purpose.
Out there somewhere there's amy you know my birth mom.
She had a plan, she had apurpose.
You know, abortions wereavailable at that season.
She, she chose to have me.
She chose to, you know, makesure I was in a safe place.
(03:15):
And back then there were.
There were no safe harbor laws.
You couldn't just leave a babyat a fire station and I mean you
were, you're gonna get arrested.
That was illegal, it wasagainst the law.
There was no quick and easyways to say, hey, I want this
child to live but it, but notwith me, I can't do this.
It was a long, drawn outprocess and so for, for whatever
the circumstances were, shepicked that and it was the grace
(03:38):
of God that the she put me infront of the ear, nose and
throat doctor instead of theOBGYN next door, brand new
office complex, and the ear,nose and throat doctor had moved
into his building.
But he came by to check on onon the construction that cold
day in April and found this boxand thought, oh, the
(03:58):
construction workers leftsomething, picked up the box and
inside was a little baby, andhe's convinced that somewhere
there was somebody around somecorner watching just to make
sure that that box was picked upand was right around the corner
from St Anthony's North, wasbrought over there and was was
cared for by a sweet lady there.
(04:19):
I've met the doctor, I've metthe lady who took care of me and
kind of got to connect some ofthose dots a few years ago and
really need to meet them, andbut I'm just convinced that the
Lord had a purpose right there.
He already said hey, I have a,I have a path for you.
My adoptive family which is aweird thing to say, that's not
how I see the world right there,not my, they're my family, my
(04:41):
family, my mom she had an oldersister who also has an adoption
story of of being abandoned, andso when my mom saw the story in
the news because this was bignews that a baby got left in
hospital in front of thedoctor's office in 1983 in
Denver, that was, that wasnewspaper worthy, and so she saw
that article and kind of feltthe story and so she started
(05:01):
bugging the county and said hey,we've already adopted one kid,
we adopt this kid, they're like,ah, it doesn't work that way
and you know you're allowed todo foster, to adopt and all
these things.
And 41 years later she's my momand that's the family I was
raised in.
So ended up with that familyand certainly thereafter got
adopted adopted, you know, by, Ithink by about time I was a
(05:23):
year old and you know myfamily's full of of crazy
stories, of of adopted kids.
I'm one of eight and we're alladopted, so yeah, wow, that's
incredible.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
So so Fast forward with me through your life, and
what kind of upbringing did youhave when it came to
spirituality and what was yourview of God and how to live a
life that impressed God or wasfor God?
(05:56):
What did that look like for you?
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Yeah, great question.
My family loved the Lord.
It was really clear.
I mean, my parents raised menot only just in the church, but
I knew about Jesus, mygrandparents I consider my
family's legacy of faith reallyto go back to my great grandma
and some of my greatgrandparents but my, in my life,
my grandparents were clearlythat spiritual center of our
(06:20):
family.
I mean, every time you were atgrandpa's house he was reading
the Bible to you with dinner andtelling us how much he loved us
and like faith was part of ourfamily culture to the point that
I don't remember being saved.
As long as I can remember, Iknew that Jesus loved me.
There was just no question thatJesus loved me.
And as soon as I couldunderstand this idea of asking
(06:41):
Jesus into my heart whateverthat means to a four year old
and whatever sort of weirdthings we've attached to that as
Western Christians but I didthat I was like, yeah, whatever
I'm in, I want this Jesus thing.
And so at an early age I wantedto follow the Lord and was
baptized.
I think by the time I was 12 andwas just all in on serving the
(07:02):
Lord, grew up in a veryconservative family home, school
family, very sheltered and alsokind of embraced that.
I was not a normal kid.
I didn't fit in well.
I was reading books about DavidLivingston and being a
missionary in Africa while kidswere thinking about football.
I grew up a little differentthan everybody else and I really
(07:25):
wanted to serve the Lord.
I had dreams of being amissionary.
I really wanted to seek the Lord, but I didn't know how and I
don't know that my parents dohow to teach grace.
I don't know how deeply theyunderstood it.
I know they understood it.
My dad could explain grace, butI don't know that.
It was always something thatfiltered into their parenting,
which I think is reallyimportant to think about your
(07:47):
parenting representing Jesus.
And if you teach, if you raiseyour children with legalism,
they will not understand graceright.
We have to teach our childrengrace even through how we
interact with them.
We need to interact and emulateChrist and I think it was
missing some of that.
There was a lot of thatconservative 90s Christian hey,
(08:07):
we don't watch PG-13 movies andthat's how we're gonna become
pure, by not being a part of theculture and so I very much
tried harder and struggled withthings like a teenager and just
didn't know what to do.
I had these desires.
I had this desperate desire toserve the Lord and to be holy,
but I could not find theresources inside of me to do it
(08:28):
and so it would just try harder.
And I'm a teenager and I'mfasting and I'm praying and I'm
reading the Bible and justtrying everything I can try.
I'm going to more altar callsat the youth retreat than
everybody else.
You know, I'm just reallytrying to figure out what was
the magic answer to get thisthing in me that the Bible says
(08:50):
is possible.
But I'm not finding in me, so inmany ways, a great foundation
of the scripture and faith andknowing God was real.
I mean, one of the big thingsmy dad did with me is we talked
a lot about creation and I goback to that often, that
creation science background,when I questioned my faith.
Just look outside and go.
There's just no stinking way.
(09:11):
This is all you know.
Accident, you know, billions ofyears of death and suffering
produced this.
It doesn't make sense.
And so you know, if I had thisgrounding where I knew God was
real, I knew he loved me, I knewthe theology, I just was
missing all of the resources andthe power behind it.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
So hearing that it's fascinating and I would love to
kind of dig a little deeper intothat and kind of the feelings
you had.
And how did you know that youwere not getting it?
Like what were you goingthrough?
That you were like this isn'tit?
And if we could just kind ofbring in that scripture that we
(09:52):
just read again and maybe youjust kind of use that as the
lens that we look at thisthrough?
Like the thief comes to steal,kill and destroy.
But Jesus said I have come thatthey may have life and have it
more abundantly.
So in that time that you'respecifically referencing, what
do you see there?
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Yeah, I think some.
There were a couple reallythings that stick out in looking
back on that.
The first one is just how youperceive God.
I think there was just a strongperception that God was
disappointed in me and I wantedto try harder and I wanted to
(10:35):
please him, but I just didn'thave a context to believe that
God could be happy with me, andso it was what else can I do to
make God happy?
I wanted him to be pleased withme.
I wanted him I know he loves mefrom a like I'm God and I'm
loving, but I didn't feel loved.
It wasn't like like man, I feelGod's love.
I know God loves me.
And I felt very conflicted ofjust like what's wrong with me
(10:58):
and why is this not working?
I learned some weird habitsthat I think a lot of people do,
of if I didn't have somethingto confess, there was something
wrong.
Like looking for things toconfess and I've run into other
believers since then.
Of just like I've got somethingto confess and it's like,
(11:19):
unless I've been fully confessedevery single thing to every
person I know that is in anyposition of authority.
That's why God's not blessingme.
And like these things where,again, they're all focused on me
and my actions.
Something's wrong with me, Ineed to do something, I've
missed something, I haven'tconfessed something and very,
very self-focused because that'swhere I was going to find this
(11:42):
right and I think the bigsymptoms were the real things
that really kind of were strong,were just stuff that teenage
boys struggle with.
That I didn't want to strugglewith anymore and go in.
I want to be done with this.
I don't want to live in thisway.
I don't want to be.
I have this as a part of mylife and a week later you're
back there and going.
Well, man, I'm so far fromwhere I want to be and I don't
(12:05):
know where to go with this.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
All right.
So what you're describing isteenage boys are terrible at
relationships and what we havehere is a relationship with God
and teenage.
It's hard.
When we're our teenager wedon't even know how to have
(12:29):
relationships with real people,let alone people like girls, who
we really value what they thinkabout us at that time, or
anybody.
And then there's this Godmythical God creature almost
that we are told that we'resupposed to have a relationship
but we have no context for whatthat relationship is supposed to
look like and I think a lot ofus struggle.
(12:52):
I identify with so much of whatyou're saying because I thought
I was supposed to impress,because that's kind of what I
did with my parents, my ownparents.
I wanted to impress them and Ididn't want to disappoint them,
and that was the context of myrelationship, and so I just laid
that context or that paradigmover God, and so now I'm
(13:16):
thinking I need to impress himor not impress him and it just
became this really weird thing.
So then we do what really smartpeople would do.
We would add getting marriedinto that.
So tell us about that nextphase of your life.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Yeah, once again, the Lord being very gracious with
me and having a plan for my life, he orchestrated some variables
and turned 18 and I was out andnew life, new opportunities
just changed my world.
And I think it was a real gift,because growing up in a
sheltered family, I think youcan struggle to find your
(13:58):
independence and your wings andyou're like I'm me now and he
really did that and he gave mekind of a simple structure in my
life that really forced somechange in my character.
You know some of these thingsI'm struggling with.
Sometimes God's gracious andsays, hey, I'm not gonna change
it from the inside, I'm gonnachange it from the outside.
And he did some of that to kindof put me in a new place where
(14:18):
I had to grow up quickly, had tonew, change some habits.
And during that season I met mywife.
We dated for four years andshe's the sweetest, most
gracious young lady you couldimagine and she was very
gracious with me and I washonest about who I am and where
(14:42):
I'm at and we wrestled throughlife and grew and she had her
own challenges and, yeah, theLord was just really gracious to
allow us, to kind of allow meto grow up very quickly through
those years get a job, get acareer, start to live
independently.
And then we got married andsomehow I had some decent skills
(15:04):
in being a husband, I think.
I think I was okay at that,beginning Lots of areas to grow,
but she's so easy to get alongwith.
I think that also helped thatshe was very gracious with any
of my shortcomings.
But we had a wonderful marriageand we really had a desire to
start serving the Lord.
So we started to plug in todifferent ministries, trying to
(15:27):
serve and this is even before Imet you.
You and I have ever talked aboutthis season but we served at a
church that she grew up in andthey wanted to plan a plan a
campus, and that didn't go verywell for various reasons.
That kind of pushed us away fromthat church, just how that went
, and we ended up at anotherchurch and then I really plugged
(15:52):
in and said, hey, I'm ready tostart serving and I started
serving in different ministries.
And that was kind of a reallypivotal moment in my faith is
those first few years at thatchurch, because first of all
they were teaching throughRomans and so getting to be
taught verse by verse, chapterby chapter, week by week,
(16:12):
through Romans, open my eyesmassively, because that book's
all about grace, it's just this.
It's like, hey, let's gothrough the first.
You know seven chapters of thisbook about your flesh and what
you can get out of it, and it'sabsolutely nothing.
And just reading that one,that's me yes, I know that I've
been there, I've done that andthen learning about, you know,
this amazing moment of like.
(16:33):
There is therefore now nocondemnation to Christ.
This moment in the book or thebook of it, and I can remember
being, you know, 20, 25, 28 yearold person sitting there, going
would.
I could pray that and say, hey,god, you promised me that
there's no condemnation, so Ican come before you and look at
you and say any condemnation Ifeel is not from God, it's from
(16:54):
my flesh or the devil and it's alie.
I mean that was just pivotalmoments for me of wow, I can go
before God and not have toconfess things, like not that we
shouldn't confess things, butlike confession is not the
prerequisite for God loving me.
God loves me because of who Iam.
Prerequisite is just part ofmaintaining a good relationship
(17:17):
with him and kind of dealingwith the things in my life and
just moments where the Lord'sjust like.
There's a whole new world ofrelationship available that's
not based on your choices, it'snot you focused, it's not about
you or your actions or your sins, sins or your shortcomings or
you trying harder.
I've got everything from soupto nuts and just remember that
(17:39):
season being very sweet, of juststarting to understand the
peace and the hope and the joy Icould have in a God who
actually loves me and in someways my actions almost don't
matter.
It's all about him, and thatwas a really powerful season for
me to learn that, and reallyfruitful.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
So you're saying that the enemy tries to steal and
kill and destroy our spirituallife by condemnation and all
these feelings that we have andall these feelings of insecurity
and ways that we feel like weneed to impress God, and yet the
(18:24):
truth is God is just gracious.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Yeah, it's incredible right.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Yeah, then I think we kind ofconnected pretty soon there at
that church and after, and thatwas just really sweet because I
got to see your family grow.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Yeah Well, before we pivot to that, I wanna hit one
more thing that we go pay off inthe conversation.
So one of the other things thathappened during that season was
, personally, I was starting tounderstand, god's grace.
And I was also starting to servein ministry, and so I was
mentoring a younger man, I wasleading a home Bible study, and
(19:07):
I quickly realized that I didnot have the answers, and that
was a very unnerving moment oflike all right, take this young
new believer under your arm.
They're like well, I'mstruggling and I don't know what
to do and how do I become abetter person?
And even though I'm learningthese lessons, I haven't learned
how to apply them in ministryand I can almost hear myself in
(19:29):
retrospect say well, you shouldtry harder and let's do more.
And like all these lessons thatI still hadn't had being out of
my thinking, cleaned out of myspiritual, theological
perspective, we're starting tocome out in my very young just
trying to love on and disciple ayounger man in Christ.
(19:51):
That poor man, he just gotterrible advice after terrible
advice.
He just still didn't understandhow to apply this.
So you're saying, oh yeah,you're broken.
Go dig deeper, go look insideof you, for just stop it, don't
do that, and I'll try harder.
All these things that come verynaturally because, they're
(20:12):
flesh.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
And you feel so good after you give that advice like
ha, if they just listened to me,everything would be all right.
I have a very similar situationwhere I was teaching this Bible
study when I was 19, and it wasin the basement of my house and
there's all these highschoolers and I'm like do this,
don't do this, do this, don't dothis.
(20:34):
And this one sweet little girlraise your hand.
She says that all sounds great,but how do we do that?
And I had no idea how to answerher and I just said I think
we're supposed to try as hard aswe can.
And that was my honest opinion.
And God radically transformedthat, like maybe a few months
(20:55):
after that, when I showed up atBible college and Bob Hoekstra's
teaching in the growing ingrace class and transformed my
life.
But yeah, at that moment Ithought I was supposed to try
harder.
That's all I had.
That was my whole perspective,same as you.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Yeah, yeah, it's so easy to just fall into that.
And then I remember I asked thepastor hey, what should I teach
in our little home Bible study?
They're like teach first John.
It's easy.
Just start there, go read firstJohn and think about somebody
who doesn't know what to teachand also doesn't understand
grace.
And it's all these verses aboutbe holy as I'm holy and be
(21:35):
loving as I'm loving.
And if anybody doesn't love hisbrother and like John talks in
such black and white, inbeautiful language, but unless
you have the context of grace,you're like I don't know, I got
nothing.
I don't know what to do withthis section.
I remember feeling so inadequateto lead these people in this
book of first John and some ofhis writing style and just going
(21:59):
, I don't have a clue, I don'tknow, because what he's talking
about there it doesn't look likeyou and it doesn't look like me
.
But he says if you're not that,then you missed the boat.
All right, well, I'm sorry andjust it's incredible to you know
, with the Lord also, I think,uses that stuff to be like okay,
nathan, you need right now,just I need to break you of any
(22:24):
dependency on self right, and Ithink that was a big part of
what he was doing.
It was just saying you gotnothing.
You're learning that personallyand you're learning to depend
on me.
I'm gonna do that in anyministry you do from now on.
You're never gonna have thatcrotch of like try harder, or I
understand it.
I'm gonna impart God's powerfulwisdom into how my
(22:44):
understanding of theology isgonna be the thing that changes
you, as this person that'scoming to me for advice which
I'm grateful for because veryquickly it became well, let's go
to Jesus because he's theanswer and he has the answers
and we can look at scripture.
But it's all about him and likethat breaking of any sort of
wisdom that I might have was areal gift, right, because I
(23:07):
could never rely on it, becausefrom the first day it was clear
I couldn't take what was inscripture and use it to make
them better, like only God coulddo that.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
So yeah, well, this is a podcast that you know.
We try to revolve around thenew covenant of grace and how to
apply it and what our journeywas, and kind of going from this
self-centered way of thinkingabout God and then it translates
(23:36):
into ministry.
So you experience that and thenyou kind of get this revelation
.
What was that for you?
How did that?
It may have been a big thing,it might have been a slow thing,
but what did that look like foryou?
Speaker 2 (23:55):
I think it's just something that's opened up over
time, of just the incrediblegift of who God promising to be.
Every aspect of it, I mean he'sthe source of anything good in
our life.
He's the source of the change.
(24:16):
Anything good that does comefrom us is from him, and even
the freedom of just, whenthere's things in my life that
aren't good, just trusting him.
You know, as you start tounderstand this idea, that it's
like it almost feels cliche tosay it, but like it's all about
him.
He's the point of it.
He provides it.
It's his grace, it's his love,it's his spirit working in you,
(24:37):
it's his power.
When there's things in my life,I don't have to be disappointed
to go look, I'm broken again.
It's almost a rejoicing of likeyep, there it is, I knew that's
there.
But there's more broken.
It's great, god.
What are you gonna do with that?
You know how are you gonnasolve that?
We had something happen at ourhouse this week.
The sewer line just died.
50 year old sewer line done.
(25:00):
You know many, many zeros onthat dollar sign and you know,
even to that level of my life.
Now I'm like okay, God, we geta new sewer line.
How are you gonna provide Likeit's all on you.
It's all the same lesson thatany challenge in my life,
anything that I don't have theresources for money or energy or
(25:21):
time or wisdom, it's God'sproblem.
He's already promised to carryit all and that's really freeing
to just be like man.
This is all about Jesus and youjust start to expect him to
work in your life and to provehimself faithful and then, if it
doesn't work out the way youthink, then he's got something
else planned, but it's still hisproblem and it's really freeing
(25:44):
to just be like okay, god, it'sall you, everything revolves
around you and there's just alot of hope and peace and joy in
that.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Yeah, I think I use the term surrender a lot for
that aspect, because,relationally with God, you have
two things going on right thatyou have the humility that
you're saying God, I need you.
Right, and that's definitelyone aspect of grace.
God gives grace to the humble,but he opposes the proud James 4
(26:17):
, 6, 1 Peter 5, 5, and thenthere's faith in that, where
you're saying not only God do Ineed you, but God I'm gonna
choose to trust in you, becauseif I trusted myself, I know that
that's not gonna go well, nomatter how much I think I'm
reliable, I'm not, and that'sthe big lie that Satan got into
(26:43):
Adam and Eve way back in Eden isyou don't need God for all
these decisions, and God waslike I made you to be completely
dependent on me as yourheavenly father, and you've
described what that looked like,what that felt like, and even
until today, you're still kindof growing in that and living in
(27:06):
that.
So has God ever let you down?
Has God ever disappointed you?
Speaker 2 (27:15):
That's a really good question and I think I think you
know for those things humanly,yes, there's been moments when
they're like, okay, god, Iexpected more.
Or I'm struggling again and youknow that's not really God
letting me down.
In those times it's.
You know I'm walking into theflesh where I'm not really
(27:36):
depending on him.
One of the big lessons I thinkin the last couple years has
been the part of depending onhim is seeking him enough that
he could work in my life, ifthat makes any sense.
That like, if I'm not in theword enough, if I'm not in
(27:58):
prayer enough, then my flesh isgoing to be a bigger part of
what I'm depending on, becausethat's the default that's always
there and unless I'm going andtaking on my cross and dying to
myself and getting in the word,allowing his word to be that
conduit for him to work in mylife, you know I can see the
difference in my life andthere's been depth-suppointing
(28:19):
seasons where it's like, oh, Iwas walking in the flesh there
and I can see that and you knowthat's not disappointment in God
but maybe moments where like,well, where are you, god, and
why is this hard and why am Istruggling?
And kind of then coming backand realize a lot of it comes
down to what I am depending onand I.
I think he brings you throughseasons to bring you deeper and
deeper, to break you up deeperand deeper levels of
(28:40):
self-dependence, and I thinkparenting has been a real lesson
of you know, every day, tryingto listen to the parenting I'm
giving and saying, is this isthis me telling my children to
try harder, or telling mychildren to seek the Lord?
And it's more complicated inthat area, because there is some
(29:03):
level of.
I am supposed to discipline mykids and I do need to have
standards and they do need tohave consequences.
So how do you balance realconsequences and their will?
Because oftentimes that's theissue they're unwilling to obey.
Right, there's a, there's abattle of the will, there's a,
but even then sometimes theycan't change their will anymore
(29:24):
than I can change mine.
So how am I pointing them toJesus without becoming becoming
hokey?
Right, I don't want to be.
Well, just let's pray andthat'll keep you from smacking
your sister.
No, that's not necessarily theright answer.
At that time and it's been fun,like recently, our 10 year old
has had like some really wildconversations with me.
(29:44):
Dad I have I mean, he literallyverbalized this that, dad, I
have these things inside of methat I want to do, that I don't
want to do.
I don't.
I'm fighting with my owndesires and I feel terrible and
I, and just like this greatstuff where, like the Lord, he's
feeling conviction, he's seeingwhat God standard is, he knows
(30:04):
he's not capable of it and justpraying that I don't, you know
bumble those moments.
The point of Jesus of like thisis like welcome to the rest of
your life, buddy.
You're going to, you're goingto help to deal with some of
this and God will be faithfulwhen you depend on him.
And you know, just praying alot.
I think that's probably thebiggest thing.
I, my heart is heavy for us justthat I would be faithful and
(30:26):
teaching my children about gracethrough my parenting, that that
when they're done there, theydon't ever come back and say,
well, dad had a lot of rules, oryou know dad was mean, or dad
was really strict, or dad.
But like I want them to say, no,dad, never let me forget how
much God loved me and howfaithful he is and how powerful
his grace is.
That's what I want them to walkaway with it from with with
(30:47):
kind of that, that, that hopeand that understanding.
You know, having grown up inthat that 90s conservative
Christian world, I think you andI both have a lot of friends we
know that were sheltered andwe're told that this is the way
to be a good Christian andthey're very far from the Lord
now.
And I don't want, you know, Iwant nothing less.
(31:08):
You'd almost, you'd almostrather your kids be the prodigal
son and really live for theworld in there.
Right, because that's just a,you know, like I want nothing to
do with whatever it is myparents had, I want nothing to
deal with it, you know, andthat's, that's heartbreaking.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
So, yeah, so I have.
I have six boys, you know, anda couple of prodigals right now,
but over this last summer, youknow, one of my boys was born
again.
He's he's 20 in a in a reallypowerful way.
It was so amazing.
It's been a source of joy in mylife that that you know I've
(31:46):
shared with you privately, andit's just, it's, it's something
that nothing can get me downbecause of what God has done in
his life, and it's, it's, it isso neat to have your kids.
So how many kids do you got?
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Three kids 10, 6, and 3.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
So and I and I imagine they're all perfectly
obedient at all times and justwonderful in every way.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
They're very, very human.
It's great.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
Well good, they share in our, they share in our
brokenness.
So you mentioned something thatI thought was worth kind of
going deeper with, and that isthe importance of reading the
Bible and prayer.
So you know it can, it can soeasily become like a law and a
(32:42):
rule and then you can startdepending on yourself in it, but
explain the importance of it inyour specifically regarding
your relationship with God,because I I think reading the
Bible and prayer are both toolsthat can really enhance our
(33:03):
relationship with God.
I don't think they're magicalthings.
It's not a magical book that weread and it's not, you know,
saying magic words isn't.
That's not what prayer iseither.
So what are they and why?
Why does that really impactrelationally your daily walk
(33:25):
with God?
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Yeah, I think and this is not theologically
speaking, this is me speakingfrom some Bible.
This is just like my experience.
I think so much of our, ourinteraction with the world, is
this cycle of beliefs, thoughtsand emotions and we control very
(33:51):
little of the cycle and I thinka lot of spiritual warfare
comes against our thoughts, ashe did in the, the, the garden.
The devil likes to just tweaklittle things in our thoughts
and get us a little bit off.
And I think by being in theword it allows the Lord to put
the truth inside of me and itgives it feeds my, my thoughts
(34:16):
and my heart, the truth andlittle nuggets and allows them
to speak and to bring truth backin and from my heart to be
planted in the truth.
And when you've learned grace,you start to read the Bible
differently and like even eventhe Old Testament.
You're reading through thesestories of like, oh the God, of
anger and violence and death,and you're like at at the Bible
(34:37):
I read in the Old Testamentyou're reading a different Old
Testament than me, because thatthat God is gracious for
hundreds of years with horriblepeople who want nothing to do
with him and he begs them andpleads with them and when you
start to understand God's lovefor us and his grace, you can be
reading through some of themost boring sections of the
Bible and also, and you just seethis, this little picture of
(34:59):
God's love for us.
So it's this opportunity forGod in every page, just to go.
This is how much I love you andI've loved every human ever.
This is what I, how I want towork in your life.
This is also my standard foryou, and you're not.
You're not here.
It's a don't.
Don't stop depending on me.
Allow me to work, allow me toconvict you.
It allows them to do so much inmy thought, life and my in my
(35:19):
heart.
Get my pride.
It hits my self dependence, ithits my, you know, getting lost
in my thoughts.
You can just get into thesecycles where you're obsessed
about things and you're thinkingabout things and it's you know,
I got to think about the nextvacation or the next, you know,
paying off, the next data, orall these things that adults,
that our brains get spun up into.
(35:40):
And when you get into Scripture, it just gets us back to God
and what he's doing.
I have a good friend who'sreally pushed me to memorize
Scripture and really challengedme, said hey, like, like, really
go to the memory Scripture.
And I have about a hundredverses that I have memorized.
Right now I'm using the theBible memory app and it's been
(36:00):
great.
It's been something I've beenworking on for about a year and
I swear it's just a big part ofhim changing my heart.
It's like putting those thingsin my heart, even if it's just a
couple of minutes a day.
Those verses are there and theLord can use them and I'm
looking for verses that fit withthe things I'm wrestling with
versus the verses about the liesI know I feel in my heart.
I go find verses that counterthat Like my heart wants to hold
(36:24):
onto this lie.
We're going to go find thatverse that counters it and we're
going to hold on to it andwe're going to get it embedded
in my brain and embedded in myheart.
And I think that's just beenone of the biggest pieces.
When I'm struggling, I can I candirectly trace it to am I
spending time in the word,allowing God to work in my heart
?
And then, of course, prayer isthat opportunity to spend time
(36:44):
talking with Him.
I wrestle with God in prayer alot.
I really wrestle with my beliefin who he is Like.
I still want to talk to him athim.
I want to ask him things Ireally wrestle a lot these days
with, like what are my prayersabout and what is God, what
should that look like, and do Iworship him and why do I worship
(37:05):
him and do I praise him?
And but I think that's all partof it.
It's like really wrestling withlike who God is and who am I
treating him as and what does hewant to reveal to me through
those times.
And you know, when I'm notdoing that, when I'm not
wrestling with him and digginginto his word, you can see it in
my life and my choices and mystruggles and just my thoughts
(37:28):
and just where I'm looking forhope and peace and joy.
You know you catch yourselftrying to find it in all kinds
of places.
You know at you know what'snext article on your social
media.
You know you're looking for thatyou know dopamine hit and you
kind of realize you're like myheart's in the wrong spot again.
I'm not looking for my peaceand joy and satisfaction in
(37:51):
Jesus.
So yeah, that's been the biglesson even the last year, year
and a half is just how importantit is to be in the word and
make that a priority.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
So All right, I'm gonna do some quick hitters.
Okay, All right.
Um top two books that you'veread.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
Top two books that I've read.
My reading is either sciencefiction or the Bible.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
I know.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
I'll read spiritual books and I wish I could read
more, but there's also justlimited time in my life.
So love the Bible.
I think one of my so probablythe book that I've enjoyed the
most recently is Project HailMary, a great science fiction
book.
Really enjoyed that one.
(38:49):
And then there's a couple ofbooks that have been powerful in
my life the last couple ofyears, and one of them I think
you, a couple of them I thinkwe've read together Hudson
Taylor, spiritual secrets.
There's also the book theyfound the secrets.
I've been reading a book calledRevival Fire lately.
That's been really encouragingto me just reading about all the
(39:12):
revivals of the Cool 1500s and1800s and those have all been
really good.
But those are kind of I'll readthem for a little bit and then
not have as much time, so yeah,Okay, this is probably gonna
come out either right before orright after the Super Bowl.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
So who's gonna win the Super Bowl?
Speaker 2 (39:33):
Ooh, ooh, I'm really pulling for the Niners because I
am tired of the Chiefs.
Well, I have to go bettingagainst Patrick Mahomes, that
man, you know that in sixseasons of being the starter.
He's the earliest he's exitedseason is in the AFC
Championship game.
He's never missed the AFCChampionship game.
(39:55):
It's ridiculous yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
That guy.
We've played a lot of seasonsof fantasy football together, so
that's been.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
It's been fun, okay.
So someone locks you in a room,says you're not getting out
until you write a book, acommentary on one book of the
Bible.
What book are you writing andwhat's the title of it?
Speaker 2 (40:17):
Commentary on the book of the Bible.
Oh, I've lost my mind bouncingaround.
I made you learn to like.
Please ask you could see it.
I've bugged you for years untilyou finally taught through it
(40:38):
and you're like oh it's a goodbook.
You're a little bit like themelancholy type than I.
I've always loved that book.
I might say today, job, Ireally am wrestling with Job.
I don't like Job, I don't likeall the commentary and trying to
understand which perspectivethe commentary is coming from.
So maybe if I was locked in aroom, the value would be getting
through Job and understandingall the layers of like it's just
(41:03):
deep man, like all thesearguments foreign against, and
then God's like up here, aboveit all, like no, you're all
wrong about everything.
And that would be the book thatwould be the most truthful for
me to wrestle through, cause I'mnot writing that right now.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
That would be the title.
You're all wrong abouteverything.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
That would be a great title for it.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
Yes, oh, that's amazing.
That's amazing.
Okay, so what's the future holdfor you?
Speaker 2 (41:33):
Future hold for me?
I don't know.
I'm in that season where whereworks very busy and then when
I'm not working, I'm keepinghumans alive and just their
world is everything else.
So that's kind of kind of whereI'm at.
You know, we're trying totrying to serve a church and try
(41:58):
and to.
I think one of the things that'sbeen on our hearts lately, my
wife and I's hearts is to beintentional about investing in
the important people, and what Imean by that is looking in our
life and going I'm going tospend time with my kids, I'm
going to spend time with myparents and my own laws, but who
are the people on the edge ofmy life that that my time would
(42:19):
be valuable outside of thatimmediate group of people?
And then be intentional aboutthat, cause there's so little
time in life that it's hard tomake time for those things.
And if you're not important,you'll realize not intentional,
you'll realize that you'vemissed the important things.
And so we've been talking a lotabout who are the important
people we're investing in, andthere's a, there's a nephew
that's come to mind and a few ofthe key people where we really
(42:41):
want to make time for them.
And so I think if my heart'sgot something on it, it's to be
faithful with the.
The little bit of time we havethat we get to pick where it
goes and make sure it goes tothe right things.
Awesome.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
Well, lastly, I just want to thank you so much for
your time.
I know you are extremely busy.
You like run a giant companyand and, yeah, it's amazing with
all the stuff you do, so thankyou for sharing with us about
the impact that grace has had inyour life.
Anything else that you want toyou wanted to add about grace
(43:16):
and the new covenant?
Well, first of all, thank youfor having me.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
It's fun to get to share on it.
I think if I had to add onelast thing is go read the sermon
on the mount with the idea ofhumility and faith and just
watch how beautiful that sermonis in that context.
for Jesus it's just just takingaway any any pride and any self,
self reliance you might have,and you might have to be able to
(43:44):
do that Self reliance you mighthave, and then saying blessed
are the poor and the hungry andthe lost and the people without
resources, and just go or makeme more like that and just enjoy
even Jesus' words about graceand how much he talks about it
in the sermon on the mount.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
So Awesome, thank you .
That's amazing, because it'samazing how your, your, your
eyes are opened when you readall of scripture, when you
understand the beauty of the newcovenant and the grace of God,
it just changes everything frombeing this burden to being a
blessing.
(44:25):
Right, it's just sotransformative.
It's so amazing.
So well, thank you for being on.
We're going to wrap it up now.
Thank you everyone for joiningus.
It's been a blessing to haveyou with us.
You can connect with us onlineand all kinds of various ways.
It'll be in the tag at the endand talk to you later.
Bye now.
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