March 17, 2025 • 34 mins
Chris Hill takes us behind the scenes of B Collective, a pioneering company dedicated to transforming the construction industry through innovative off-site fabrication.
At the heart of our conversation is an in-depth look at the closed panel wall system concept. Unlike conventional construction, this approach integrates sheathing on the interior side, creating a seamless air and moisture barrier filled with dense-pack cellulose insulation. The result? Exceptional airtightness achieved with remarkable efficiency. Chris walks us through how these precision-manufactured components arrive on-site, ready for rapid assembly—enabling his team to complete an entire duplex in just five days, from foundation to finish.
Listen as Chris examines the building resilience crisis we face today. The everyday vulnerabilities of traditional construction—whether from bathroom flooding or drywall damage caused by children at play—highlight the need for a fundamental shift in how we design living spaces. From 3D printing and composite materials to innovative wood products, the future of construction promises buildings that are not only faster and more cost-effective to build but also more durable and environmentally sustainable.
Ready to explore how off-site construction could transform your next project? Tune in now.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Site.
Visit Podcast Leadership andperspective from construction
with your host, James Faulkner.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Recorded live from the show floor at BuildX
Vancouver 2025.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Alright, Mr Chris Hill, how are you doing today?
I'm doing great BC Collective.
Yep.
I got a question for you.
How'd you come up with the name?
Speaker 2 (00:35):
B Collective is actually a merger of four
companies, so B Collective.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
B Collective.
Oh yeah, you know what Do?
Speaker 2 (00:41):
people say that a lot , every single person that's
ever said it says BC Collective.
But why is that?
Is it because the C is rightnext to the B and it's
capitalized?
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Sometimes we played with extending it and maybe do
you know what's something,though I, because I used to do
naming my old job and peoplekind of like, see things like
the word collective.
Collective sounds likesomething governmental, as in
like it's like a you know?
Uh, what do you call that?
A consortium of like groups, acollective?
(01:09):
Um, because you hear words likecollective bargaining.
Yep, okay, so be collective.
Was that's not the intention atall, right?
So what is the?
What was the sort of?
Speaker 2 (01:18):
I mean it's not far off that probably lose the like
governance and snobbiness ofthat, but it was for four
companies.
Well, three companies comingtogether um to do good and okay
and be collective.
So we were sort of we wanted tocollaborate together.
So what were those three silosthen uh, we had a.
It was myself uh focused onhigh performance custom homes,
(01:41):
um, and that progressive areawith, also with an accounting
designation.
Yeah, uh, john van dargen wasrunning a good construction
company, similar size, um, buthe was really uh into business
development, uh, growing hisbusiness, the marketing side of
it, yeah.
And then dax is uh was ourdirector of construction and
really focused on the executionof work and he'd be our skilled
(02:02):
trade.
Okay, cool piece of it, yeah soit was a group that we thought
we could come together andreally it'd free me up to go
expand our company intodifferent areas.
I see.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Alright, so let's just talk about this.
So the term off-siteconstruction, so also known as
aka prefab-ish kind of stuff, soare you manufacturing this
stuff?
We are Okay, and you weresaying you have an office near
Science World.
That's not where you're makingthe stuff too, is it?
Speaker 2 (02:35):
No, that's actually where we have a small shop.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Okay, cool.
So whereabouts is that it's?
Speaker 2 (02:40):
literally like Science World main and terminal
or Kitty Quarter.
There's a small industrial areathere.
Yeah, this is an old steelbuilding, 6,000 square feet,
7,000 square foot yard thatwe've got a nice little lease on
.
Yeah.
And we're able to manufacturethere.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Like behind the Mr Lube there.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Yeah.
Yeah, you're right on point.
There's a bunch of RVs aroundus.
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
We're right in there, okay, cool, yeah, okay.
So you guys are.
So what are you making in in inyour manufacturing facility
that you're getting ready, likethe off-site materials and
components?
Speaker 2 (03:11):
so you're basically lego-izing construction as much
as possible yeah, that'd be thedream I, I think, in truth, what
we're doing, I mean,everything's custom still, uh,
every part that rolls throughthere is unique, and that's
probably the problem that we'retrying to solve, right.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
And I'd love to say we'd solve it.
You want some?
Speaker 2 (03:28):
repeatability be nice .
Industrial process let's pumpthis stuff out.
Yeah, and I've been on.
I mean we can dig into that too.
I'm part of the 10 standardizeddesigns from the province yeah,
there's a bunch of and findrepeatability Okay, and it
doesn't have to be cookie cutter.
The shop today they arebuilding a closed panel, so
they're building a light woodframe.
(03:48):
It will be the one.
Today is for a single familyhouse.
It's a custom house.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Okay, a closed panel.
Take a double click on that.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
We are going to move our sheathing, so exterior
sheathing comes to the inside.
Yeah, we use it as our airbarrier, moisture barrier and
our structure.
We're then going to fill therest of it.
So the cavity that's createdfrom the 2x4 structure, we fill
it with dense pack cellulose andthen we have an exterior
sheathing.
On this one we're using across-trap 2x4 with rock, wool,
(04:17):
mineral board and that holds thecellulose in.
We put the WRB on and then ourrain screen and that's what
we're shipping out.
So what comes to site is youdon't visually see the
structural two-by-fours.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Right On the outside it's closed.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Yeah, you don't see it at all.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
On the inside Either.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Yeah, it's all hidden .
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Oh crazy.
Okay, so what is the insidefinish?
I'm obviously doing a quickdrywall on that, because
typically you're drywalling onthe studs, right yeah?
Speaker 2 (04:44):
So what does it?
Look like now It'd be a plywoodsurface Plywood okay, it looks
like plywood.
You can see the sheathing andnailing for sign-off on that.
Right, okay.
And then we'll on-site do amechanical cavity where needed.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
So what thickness of plywood is that?
Half an inch, half an inch,same as normal.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Okay, crazy, okay, reversing conventional
construction in that regard, andwhat it allows us to do is have
a very precision panel and allof our air tightness and air
barriers to the inside, and sowe're, with that system, hitting
very, very low levels of airtightness with relative ease.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Okay, and then electrical conduit.
How does that all work?
Speaker 2 (05:19):
We just fur out the inside wall.
Okay.
So you just put an inch and ahalf where it's needed.
We used to put it in in thefactory.
Uh, we've slowed that down.
Uh, because what we're findingis the electric.
We can do it after theelectrician or mechanical to go
to town.
Here's a blank canvas.
How much faster is that?
And then we just all it's doingis holding drywall so we can
(05:40):
just block it out where neededokay, so you guys do that on
your end before they get there.
Depends on the scope and theproject.
But we're finding now thatbackframing is pretty easy.
Anybody can do that, so theydon't need anything specialized.
So when it leaves the factory,because we're no longer a
general contractor, we're nowsolely focused on off-site
construction, so our scope forus to come back and do that
(06:02):
later is too expensive.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
So we'll just keep it open.
It's easy for someone else todo.
Someone's just thinking like ifsomeone who wants a new
electrical outlet, like in thepast, you'd be pounding through
drywall and then there's nothingbehind that.
You've got plywood behind you.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
And as a building scientist not a building
scientist, but someone thatunderstands airflow, moisture
flow my bigger concern is thatrenovation you're doing to that
wall for a picture frame, anelectrical outlet or whatever.
Yeah, you're puncturing yourair barrier and your moisture
barrier.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
I see.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
A one centimeter square hole with air drive
brings in like a liter of water.
I forget what the rate is.
I can call it a day, it mighteven be an hour, right, and
that's where you get mold.
That's where you get mold,that's where you get rot.
That's where you get prettysignificant issues.
The performance of your hosedramatically drops.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
It's like giving a flat tire to your car Right Cool
.
So these panels, this is like akind of proprietary sort of mix
that you put together ofmaterials.
That is, do you have thatspinning on your website?
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Yeah, it's that way, but we've taken an interesting
choice.
We removed the word proprietary, so it's open source.
So the idea is that we weregoing to grow the industry as a
whole and let everybody producethat, so it's widely available.
We're working with.
A lot of the consulting I do iswith our large organizations BC
(07:26):
Housing, Metro Vancouver, lotsof contractors, lots of other
manufacturers that are alreadybuilding walls like this and
then just refining that assemblyto meet their manufacturing
spec and what's needed for theproject or projects.
So it's widely available.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
I'd like to come and see this.
Can I see it one day?
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Yeah, I'd like to come by.
They're banging nails for thenext couple of weeks.
It's pretty fun.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Yeah, okay, that's cool.
So you've got the wall panel.
What other components are youbuilding?
You said a lot of the time it'slike custom, because it's
obviously you're getting anorder that's for a particular
size.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Yeah, I mean right now, a lot of what we're working
on.
So the problem is right now isevery single house, every single
project is a one-off, uniquepiece, and it's where AEC, the
architectural housing process,is.
So we're doing a lot of work tostandardize that we also the
other product we produce quite abit of would be an open panel
(08:20):
for all your internal walls,your sheer walls.
We do floor cassettes, which isTGIs and plywood.
Don't overthink it, it's prettysimple but it does we then when
?
because we have a crane on site,it's speed right.
So we assembled a duplex injanuary, in five days wow crazy,
yeah, from foundation dancefloor on backfilled.
So then we took over the sitecrane.
(08:42):
Our panels flow in.
They do a floor a day, if not alittle faster.
I guess that one was a bitslower on my math on five days
and two floors but they rolledthrough it pretty quick.
So first floor walls, secondfloor floors, so that floor
cassette's a eight foot to 10foot by 20 foot, even 24 foot
piece, yeah.
So if you start to understandthose components and the lego
(09:05):
blocks that you're building withreally well, you start to value
up, optimize it, the Legoblocks that you're building with
really well, you start to value, optimize it.
And what we're doing right nowis we're just taking every
single existing house andbuilding the way we always have
and site built construction,stick built.
We do it really really well.
In North America we have verymuch a pickup truck culture,
yeah, and our project I've beenin construction for 15 years.
(09:27):
We were great at buyingtwo-by-fours at the last minute
at 7 am, every single one of myguys would go to the store, buy
what they need for the day, showup and build something or take
a delivery, and there is anefficiency in that, for sure,
but it's also just incrediblyinefficient Weather time delays,
site conditions, sending sixpeople to a site with no hot
(09:51):
lunch.
It's ridiculous.
Where that's what in thefactory?
You bring all that into thefactory and you start to gain
these pieces.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
So, as you see your business evolving, what is the
type of business that you areaspiring, that you want?
What line of work are youtrying to get Like?
If you do, you get those pillowthoughts when you're trying to
get to sleep at night and you'relike, if I could only just
crack this.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
That's what I'm laughing about, right now, okay,
smiling, you've got you've likenailed.
Nailed it is.
I spend a lot of time at nightfiguring that out.
Right now we're're focused onsort of the cutting edge, the
research development.
We call what we're doing in theshop more of a sandbox.
We have zero interest incompeting with the big
production.
We're in downtown Vancouver.
(10:34):
It's a pain in the butt to geta semi-truck to our shop.
It's never going to compete ona high-volume piece.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
Do you want that to get to that point though?
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Do you want to move out to the valley and get some
large production?
I want to dial in the digitalside and the process and then
have multiple manufacturerssupporting that across the
province.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
I got you yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
We've been doing a lot of work with indigenous
groups.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
So you want to create the brain?
Yeah, okay.
So what does the brain looklike?
Speaker 2 (11:01):
The brain is a digital system that's processing
a lot of data.
That takes all the way fromdesign iterations all the way to
the exact steps needed toproduce in various types of
factories.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
I see so would that look like a BIM model?
And then that BIM model isessentially their basic.
I'm going to call it drawing,but it's not drawing, so it's a
bin model, but their basic CADfile.
That is the project, howeverlarge the project is, and then
(11:38):
you have some kind of a pluginthat's like apply your
components.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Yeah, I mean that exists today, so in the app
stack that's totally available.
It was on it there.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
But you have all of your stuff in there.
What can apply to thatparticular?
Speaker 2 (11:54):
model.
Yeah, you have differentiterations and so you would
optimize to the differentproduct and the reality of being
able to be manufactured.
You've got to produceeverything from a laneway house,
adu all the way up to asix-story or even, arguably.
What we're looking at now issome mass timber components and
parts.
Yeah.
Like the wall system.
So we're talking a very broadspectrum of building types and I
(12:16):
think the yes, there's theproject-based thinking and
plugging those pieces inoptimizing your parts using the
Lego blocks effectively, but youhave various iterations.
Someone said it to me todayearlier Like you go to the Lego
blocks effectively, but you havevarious iterations Someone said
it to me today earlier you goto the Lego website, you can
select different iterations ofall those different blocks to
make it work for what you wantto build.
So I think that's what it needsto get to, but it also has to
(12:38):
core tie into the productionschedule.
So these shops, themanufacturing shops, live and
die by the volume they pump outand the efficiency of that and
as soon as you have anycapitalization in a shop or your
op costs and you have a week ora day shut down, it's dramatic
to your bottom line.
So I actually think it reallystems from that production
(13:01):
schedule is the digital brainand the process.
Our AAC process is also likethat the design development
we're working on some grants andsome working right now of
taking that manufacturingknowledge, those Lego blocks and
assigning best practices toeducate the early due diligence,
concept, phase process andschematic drawings so that
you're using those principlesand rules and guides very early
(13:25):
on in your building development.
Because the McKenzie curve orMcLean curve, the further we go
down the road, the decisionchange gets more and more
expensive.
I see yeah, and so with so manyof these decisions, the system
that you're using to build ahome for these projects and
buildings it started and engagedon in the very early process
(13:47):
and once you've gone sort ofdown those road, that track, you
can't turn and you're committedto that.
And sometimes that's wherewe're seeing offsite
construction fail because costoverruns, it wasn't designed
properly for that system andit's very difficult to pivot and
change.
And so I think that's whereeducation, knowledge, gap,
really understanding where thischange is occurring and like
(14:08):
changes the market, we justcan't do it the way we always
have been is a big part of thatbrain, of using that tool all
the way through.
So I think it's a pretty bigdigital platform is the truth to
make that all work.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Well, I would say.
I mean, you're clearly not theonly people on the planet doing
this.
What countries, what cities arelike pioneering this kind of
process?
Speaker 2 (14:30):
I mean, we're way behind Europe.
Switzerland, Austria, germanyare like light years ahead of us
.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
So what kind of things are they excelling at
that you could take someknowledge from?
Speaker 2 (14:44):
They there is no stick frame.
Even thinking so, their bigbattle there is to convince
people to get away from brick orconcrete and use timber frame.
Okay, and they're using quitelarge timber to do that.
I mean, we have a very existlike our most.
A lot of our buildings arepre-used wood right, so it's a
different argument.
they are they're using veryadvanced systems.
(15:08):
Within that regard, they're theautomation in their factories.
The capital scale in theirfactories is significant.
The universities, the courses,the education, but just the
breadth of knowledge that is isheld by every individual.
Yeah, um, I think there's alsoa um, an outlook that's
different.
Fundamentally, their investmentcycles in these large capital
(15:29):
factories have come fromgenerations.
So David Ringley, ringley Helmshe's third generation and
they've just invested someobscene number like $500 million
into a new factory in Germany,their Swiss company, and that's
his generation's big move andeach generation has done that
big move and he's doing that bigmove for 30, 40 years down the
(15:52):
road, whereas our investmentcycle in buildings we're really
short.
The investors over here arelike what's my return in two
years?
And he's just not going to getthat In this housing cycle, the
construction cycle, the timethese things take to build.
That basic outlook is different.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
But coming from the Swiss and the Germans.
I mean, isn't it like theprefab business in the elevator
business has been around foryears, years?
That's what I mean and that'sthe perfect model.
That's the one.
They've been doing that forever, yeah, and the building's
different every time, thingsdifferent every time, and they
(16:33):
have probably just minordifferences on a myriad of the
same model.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Yeah, you'd be surprised they still like even
those companies have, for themost part, produce a lot of
typologies.
It surprised me.
I thought they'd sort of likehave one really focused one and
just pump it out yeah um, butyou'd be even for their
production schedules to befilled and to really work it.
They are definitely diversifiedand flexibility is built into
(16:56):
their processing system to beable to survive.
Code changes, product changes,innovation in what is being
built is constant, but theirprocessing ability to execute
what is it about the Swiss andthe Germans?
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Why does he go to this stuff?
Tick, tick, tick.
They're process-driven.
Is that what it is?
I think so.
Or is it a culture?
Speaker 2 (17:15):
thing.
I mean I'd say it's both, likethe culture drives that process,
thinking of just really qualityexecution.
Yeah, let's be honest, the lookat their buildings and what
they're building compared tohere, it's dramatically
different.
And even our wood.
One of the problems we'rehaving with mass timber right
(17:35):
now is that our ability as a BCforestry industry produced
lumber is second to none in theworld.
We pump out commodity spaghetti2x4, 2x6 like nobody else, but
it's not not, it's too, it's toorough, it's too.
It's not a great quality ofmaterial that gets used.
Uh, for like for the masstimber, you need a more
precision piece.
(17:56):
So you have verticallyintegrated companies like
kleznikoff that own their ownforest plant, their own forest,
process their own wood.
Yeah, processing it to a muchhigher tolerance for their clt
yeah, I I have to admit.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
I mean, you know, I went and got some solid white
oak.
I think it was like 1x2.
And it's a ganjo.
None of it's straight.
I'm like what is this?
And that should be straight.
I mean it's not like I'm buyingplywood.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Yeah, that's like a high-end hardwood, like imagine
buying SPF number two and better.
It's like a spaghetti, but it'slike.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
It's all over the place.
Yeah, I just don't understandwhy that is Would that be like
that in Switzerland?
Speaker 2 (18:36):
They use a different.
They use much more of atimber-based system, so it's
more of like timber framing.
So they're using metric, butthey would be using like 4x4s
and 6x6s for the most part.
And the answer is no.
I mean we also got tounderstand that we're primarily
an export market.
We literally see someridiculously no number like
don't quote me on this, but like2% or 5% of our product ends up
(18:59):
in our houses.
Here we are exportingeverything.
Um, so there's j grade, likejapan grade is a high end, like
all of our high end would go tothe top, highest dollar can you
excuse me for one second?
Speaker 1 (19:11):
yeah, I'm knocking everything over here.
Sorry about that.
No worries, ping pong isgetting, it's getting action.
Yeah, yeah, it's getting.
You don't want the extreme pingpong.
That's why we have the slowball.
(19:33):
Yeah, the slow ball.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Slow ball.
You need a wiffle ball.
Ping pong.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
Yeah, that's cool, yeah, so I.
So what do you think Is?
Are materials going to bedriving this innovation
specifically?
I mean, like right now you guysare putting components together
at your shop that are basicallyit's off-site construction.
(19:57):
It's the stuff you would,besides your panels, the stuff
you would be doing on-site,you're doing off-site, and
shipping to-site.
Construction is the stuff youwould, besides your panels, the
stuff you would be doing on-site, you're doing off-site, and
shipping to site and assemblingpretty quick, correct, yeah,
exactly.
But, you're using lots of woodscrews nails same stuff.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Right, all the same stuff.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
I guess what I'm getting at is that at what point
is there off-site composite 3Dprinting?
Let's go there.
I got you when this stuff isjust being made.
Precision You're not nailingstuff together, because it's
actually formed together.
Yep, large build plates.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
I think it's a necessity and I got to be
careful with a whole whack ofNDAs with 3D printed companies,
robotic companies and that levelof automation, yeah.
But yeah, that's where it'sgoing.
If we need to build faster,cheaper and better, we can't do
it the same way we've been doingit.
No.
You need a seismic shift and Ithink it will be material-driven
(20:55):
.
But don't ask me to bet on whatmaterial right now, because I
think there's a lot of like.
There's an opportunity in woodand I think it changes region by
region.
Cold form steel is getting alot of action right now for a
lot of good reasons, but I thinkit's also a little
short-sighted in what they'retrying to do there and it won't
ultimately win it because it'snot the right level of
(21:15):
sustainability.
The impact of that material istough.
Wood I said I was lumber brokerat the start of this, really on
Wood I said I was a lumberbroker at the start of this,
early on Wood, I think is acritical piece the mass timber
elements and really it's stillsuch a micro part of our like.
All this conversation is suchin its infancy, but you're going
to have something that comes inand breaks it and disrupts
(21:37):
properly, and it's a matter oftime in my opinion.
I'm not a huge fan of the 3Dprinting where a big printer
shows up and CNC's a house outof a nozzle.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
That's kind of weird, like the whole thing that looks
like icing.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Yeah, yeah, and not to hit on the technology like I
think down in Texas in certainregions it makes a lot of sense.
In our wet coast it's just notviable in my opinion, unless
something dramatically changesin the material and it's an
overuse of concrete and blah,blah blah.
That being said, I'm havingconversations with 3D printed
panels.
So we've got this panel that wecan really panelize.
We know how the trucking works,we know how to install it
(22:12):
really well, so let's play withthat.
What can we do in a wetenvironment in Vancouver that we
know we're going to be flyingthese through the rain, in a wet
environment in Vancouver thatwe know we're going to be flying
these through the rain?
So what is the materials?
How can we get that interiorfinished, exterior, finished
window, on assembly, locked andloaded?
It leans to 3D modular in someareas, but 3D modular has its
(22:33):
other issues.
But where do we find that sweetspot of a really bulletproof
panel?
And I think we're like in mywhiteboards and my visions at
night.
I can see it, um, but it justcomes down to scale, economics,
um, and finding that material.
Yeah.
A micro CLT hemlock panel with a3d printed cladding that's
thermally broken.
Precision made that assemblesin days Sounds great.
(22:56):
It's there.
It's not that far off it's notthat far off.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
It's just a matter of putting up the money to make it
happen.
Well, it seems like it would be.
Um, yeah, sorry, people arewalking by melatonin saying hi,
and my eyes are doing thisbecause I'm recognizing people
um, but um, yeah, there'sdefinitely the like I look at.
I look at a lot of 3d printingstuff and I think of, wow,
there's the fact that some carparts, um, some it can be used
(23:24):
just by 3d printing.
It didn't have to be.
You know, in the old days I'dhave to, you know, make a mold
and have the alloy done, but nowthat can.
So there's a lot of compositematerials that are like super
strong, stronger than the otherstuff was.
And you know, to me the like,even the two by four, okay, like
, let's just say that you've got16-inch centers.
Let's say you've got like an8-foot wall you want to make,
(23:46):
and typically it would be atrack on the bottom.
You typically do it with steel,now Steel track on the bottom
and then your steel stud.
Well, you've got all the screws, you've got all the BS that's
got to go in there.
That could be made withsomething that has different
layers to it.
So the inside layer is a um isgoing to add to the structure
(24:09):
structural integrity becauseit's solid, and then the rest of
it could actually be a hardened, more of a hardened material
you're using less of, but uh,it's kind of like a totally kind
of a what do you call it?
like a skin, like an orange, forinstance, like the peel yeah
and the peel is the stuff thatyou screw into um, so it seems
(24:29):
like there's, but that couldhave no joins done properly with
3d printing totally, and youguys could be pumping those out
of your.
Yeah, but the speed also is theother thing.
All right, the speed of makingthis stuff is so low.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
It's this is it right , like it's the and the speed.
There's two factors, I think.
Speed you hit it up with speed.
The other major factor thatpeople gloss over quickly is
just the pure scale.
The volume of materials thatgoes into our buildings is
staggering.
Yeah, like I mean like you'dhave to have like hoppers of oh,
of this stuff, this stuff andwhat is that stuff?
(25:03):
Spools and spools and spools,and right now to make it
structurally work and all thesethings you can like.
It's carbon graphite.
Yeah, eps, like Nylon.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Nymically lozed at foam.
There's nylon with graphite inthere?
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Yeah, it's.
It's a lot of chemicals that Ican't pronounce or understand,
whereas what we've been tryingto push forward and one of the
beauties of wood is it's anatural, bio-based product that
is incredibly light, incrediblystrong.
So I think there's a use forwood in that it's also the
biophilic design, the look, themonotonous-y of our white walls
is what we're finding in a lotof projects.
(25:38):
The introduction of wood ofnature is very beneficial to
people's health and has a lot ofqualities that we often call
the biophilic design.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Biophilic design.
It's the third time I've heardthat in the past two days.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Well, I mean, you're real close to the Woodworks
booth.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
They talked about it.
Yeah, someone else talked aboutit too.
So, in terms of do you know onething, like when you see the
finishing of a home on theinside interior, I think of how
much environmental waste hasgone into the one color.
(26:15):
It's not even a color white.
Do you ever think about this?
I think that Like white Becausethe pigment of like you mean
colorless, colorless, no color,no color.
Just like to make somethingwhite.
Okay, so there's white innature, but it's a different
kind of white.
It's not that milky opacitywhite.
(26:36):
If you look at a petal, that's awhite flower.
It's not the same kind of whitea petal, that's a white flower.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
It's not the same kind of white.
We had to make this white,simply white.
I'm trying to remember thebenjamin moore code for simply
white, which I've used on likethe last 15 projects.
Um, it's no white, like it'sjust white, and that's what
everything gets painted.
You think of the layers, thebuild-up, like it's we to get
these layers and I mean, Iunderstand on the interior side
there's also there's fire,there's a whole bunch of things
that these layers and walls aredoing and control layers.
(27:03):
But I think, and it's also whatI find, I mean I got, I got
three kids and two dogs at homeand they're in the ripe age of
two, five and seven and they aredestructive.
Our house is getting destroyed.
These environments we'rebuilding are incredibly fragile.
They're not resilient.
Well, yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
You drive your remote-controlled car into the
wall, you get a hole in thedrywall.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
You write on the walls and you clean it with your
Mr Eraser and dig a holethrough the paint.
The corner would be like Ihaven't even gone into the
bathroom yet.
Why are we using the bathroomis a wet environment.
Why aren't we sealing our fullfloors Like they are very
fragile?
Yeah.
As a builder that's built manyhouses, my warranty calls are
(27:48):
always around the bathroom, yeah, and oftentimes user error of
like yeah, we spilled a wholewhack of water and it drained to
the floor below.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
You're supposed to make like a sink of the floor,
right it's not in code.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
It's not required.
It's smart though.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
It's smart.
I mean that's what like?
I mean it gets back to cost andall those pieces.
But no, the reality of ourfragility is of our houses.
There's an interesting productthat you were talking about like
3D printed.
There's some people weretalking to me about recycled
plastic.
We have a huge amount ofgarbage plastic.
Can you use that?
Where does that all go thesedays?
Speaker 1 (28:27):
It gets shipped overseas, or burnt or just
filled.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Yeah, I'm not the expert there, but I would say,
and it's an interesting piece,but you also like, literally
with the volume of material weuse in construction, by the time
you get that available andproduced do you have an?
industry that's now creatingplastic to be used in houses.
Oh yeah, which is the back likethe backlash of that is
significant, but it is a wasteproduct that we should be using.
(28:52):
Yeah, it does have someattributes that make a lot of
sense of resiliency, lasting along time.
Like to use the attributes it'susing to make a huge island in
the ocean for our housingproblem.
Yeah, which.
I think those sort of like youget into these deep material
conversations that I think arereally interesting, of what is
that product that's widelyavailable?
It also quickly goes intoregional.
(29:14):
I get to talk about projectsall over North America and
sometimes all over the world.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
So you're in a really , really interesting segment
right now in the market.
Yeah, like it is so excitingabout the opportunity.
Where are things in the?
Are there venture capitalcompanies that are interested in
your kind of like?
Is there money to be other thangovernment grants, which are
(29:43):
pretty, usually pretty small?
Is there any like?
Are there any global VCs whoare interested in this kind of
innovation and building products?
Speaker 2 (29:52):
I think it's I mean.
If you know any, let me know.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
I'm just curious whether or not there's an
ecosystem for that, like thereis in tech.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
I think there is starting to be, and I think
actually what we just talkedabout with that digital brain is
a pretty heavy tech piece and Ithink the VC side will come
through that tech VC.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
It would there.
I'm just wondering if it'sgoing to port itself to the
material side.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
What's happening, though, is you've got big
multinational companies.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
Like Lafarge and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Yeah, or St Cobain is digging into offsite pretty
heavy.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
What about?
What's the other large one, theHeidelberg?
Speaker 2 (30:25):
Yeah, I mean, those are the.
So what's that's concrete,based like Lafarge.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
High School.
I know they are, but I'm justsaying they're probably looking
at it.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
They're digging in.
They also understand thateverybody's trying to do their
best to reduce concrete on everysingle one of the projects.
There's a lot of carbon rightnow, so they're going to build
their electric car.
They're going to figure outsomething.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
They've been the gas car for so many years.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
And I'd actually give the concrete industry massive
credit.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
They've done a lot of stuff.
They've done a ton.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
They've actually moved way faster than anybody
else in the constructionindustry in that space and I
think that's really encouraging.
And those are the big, bigplayers.
St Cobain, which is certainty,which is drywall, all that
interior stuff and a ton ofmembranes and layers and
insulation um, they've got,they've, they've developed an
off-site system and they'rereally pushing it.
Um, I think there's more andmore interest.
(31:09):
I think there's still there'sno sure bet right now.
It's still really early, and Ithink that's causing some peace.
It's also, I think, within theoutside construction space and
we've seen it in across the is.
Where does it actually?
Who are the major players?
Who's going to be thatinstructor?
Who's going to be like?
there's the enthusiastic startupthe enthusiastic amateur
(31:30):
startups yeah, then maybe theyget something that runs.
Or is it a sawmill that'svertically integrated that gets
something going?
Is it a building supplier thatstarts getting into offsite and
they're just adding value totheir supply chain?
Is it material suppliers?
You have all these differentplayers dabbing their toe in.
Developers are probably theones that fail the most and
(31:52):
that's where we get a lot offailures in offsite construction
, because they've got apre-existing core competency
with the way they've been doingit and that change management on
an internal organization isreally difficult.
So it's kind of a bit of a.
The other part of what I sleepat night is what do you bet on
Like?
Which is that entrance that'sactually going to make some
ground here?
Yeah.
And I don't think there's likethere's no obvious clear-cut
(32:13):
winner.
It's still sort of that earlyWild West where you're figuring
it out.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
I think your brain's a winner.
I appreciate that Well, thebrain itself, because you can
keep changing the outputs.
You can't.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
This is a long-term investment strategy.
It's not going to happen in twoweeks.
It's not a quick hit.
So you have to be flexible tomarket change and I can
guarantee you product innovationis coming, code change is
coming, all those pieces.
There is change.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Change inevitable.
I just had Corey on from thecity of Vancouver.
That was interesting.
Yeah, yeah, Lots of things thatyou know they're obviously
would like to be doing too.
There's huge inefficiencies,that Massive yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
All over the place.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
All right.
Well, chris, this has been veryinteresting.
I think we should have a longerchat in the studio, probably
about this stuff, because I kindof geek out on where this is
all going.
So that's actually pretty coolAll right.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
So how do people get hold of you?
It's the best right now to headto bcollectivecom.
Not BC, not BC 1B.
The word collective no spacecom.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Okay, and then you're on LinkedIn.
I am on LinkedIn, chris Hill.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
All right, super generic name, but I've been
pretty popular these days, so Ithink I'm getting up there.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Perfect, sounds great .
Okay, well, pleasure.
Thanks for spending time withme.
Appreciate it.
Thank you, cheers.
Well, that does it for anotherepisode of the Site Visit.
Thank you for listening.
Be sure to stay connected withus by following our social
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You can also sign up for ourmonthly newsletter at
sitemaxsystemscom slash the sitevisit, where you'll get
(33:47):
industry insights, pro tips andeverything you need to know
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Sitemax is also the engine thatpowers this podcast.
All right, let's get back tobuilding.
Welcome to the Site.
Visit Podcast Leadership andperspective from construction
with your host, James Faulkner.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Recorded live from the show floor at BuildX
Vancouver 2025.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Alright, Mr Chris Hill, how are you doing today?
I'm doing great BC Collective.
Yep.
I got a question for you.
How'd you come up with the name?
Speaker 2 (00:35):
B Collective is actually a merger of four
companies, so B Collective.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
B Collective.
Oh yeah, you know what Do?
Speaker 2 (00:41):
people say that a lot , every single person that's
ever said it says BC Collective.
But why is that?
Is it because the C is rightnext to the B and it's
capitalized?
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Sometimes we played with extending it and maybe do
you know what's something,though I, because I used to do
naming my old job and peoplekind of like, see things like
the word collective.
Collective sounds likesomething governmental, as in
like it's like a you know?
Uh, what do you call that?
A consortium of like groups, acollective?
(01:09):
Um, because you hear words likecollective bargaining.
Yep, okay, so be collective.
Was that's not the intention atall, right?
So what is the?
What was the sort of?
Speaker 2 (01:18):
I mean it's not far off that probably lose the like
governance and snobbiness ofthat, but it was for four
companies.
Well, three companies comingtogether um to do good and okay
and be collective.
So we were sort of we wanted tocollaborate together.
So what were those three silosthen uh, we had a.
It was myself uh focused onhigh performance custom homes,
(01:41):
um, and that progressive areawith, also with an accounting
designation.
Yeah, uh, john van dargen wasrunning a good construction
company, similar size, um, buthe was really uh into business
development, uh, growing hisbusiness, the marketing side of
it, yeah.
And then dax is uh was ourdirector of construction and
really focused on the executionof work and he'd be our skilled
(02:02):
trade.
Okay, cool piece of it, yeah soit was a group that we thought
we could come together andreally it'd free me up to go
expand our company intodifferent areas.
I see.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Alright, so let's just talk about this.
So the term off-siteconstruction, so also known as
aka prefab-ish kind of stuff, soare you manufacturing this
stuff?
We are Okay, and you weresaying you have an office near
Science World.
That's not where you're makingthe stuff too, is it?
Speaker 2 (02:35):
No, that's actually where we have a small shop.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Okay, cool.
So whereabouts is that it's?
Speaker 2 (02:40):
literally like Science World main and terminal
or Kitty Quarter.
There's a small industrial areathere.
Yeah, this is an old steelbuilding, 6,000 square feet,
7,000 square foot yard thatwe've got a nice little lease on
.
Yeah.
And we're able to manufacturethere.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Like behind the Mr Lube there.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Yeah.
Yeah, you're right on point.
There's a bunch of RVs aroundus.
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
We're right in there, okay, cool, yeah, okay.
So you guys are.
So what are you making in in inyour manufacturing facility
that you're getting ready, likethe off-site materials and
components?
Speaker 2 (03:11):
so you're basically lego-izing construction as much
as possible yeah, that'd be thedream I, I think, in truth, what
we're doing, I mean,everything's custom still, uh,
every part that rolls throughthere is unique, and that's
probably the problem that we'retrying to solve, right.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
And I'd love to say we'd solve it.
You want some?
Speaker 2 (03:28):
repeatability be nice .
Industrial process let's pumpthis stuff out.
Yeah, and I've been on.
I mean we can dig into that too.
I'm part of the 10 standardizeddesigns from the province yeah,
there's a bunch of and findrepeatability Okay, and it
doesn't have to be cookie cutter.
The shop today they arebuilding a closed panel, so
they're building a light woodframe.
(03:48):
It will be the one.
Today is for a single familyhouse.
It's a custom house.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Okay, a closed panel.
Take a double click on that.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
We are going to move our sheathing, so exterior
sheathing comes to the inside.
Yeah, we use it as our airbarrier, moisture barrier and
our structure.
We're then going to fill therest of it.
So the cavity that's createdfrom the 2x4 structure, we fill
it with dense pack cellulose andthen we have an exterior
sheathing.
On this one we're using across-trap 2x4 with rock, wool,
(04:17):
mineral board and that holds thecellulose in.
We put the WRB on and then ourrain screen and that's what
we're shipping out.
So what comes to site is youdon't visually see the
structural two-by-fours.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Right On the outside it's closed.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Yeah, you don't see it at all.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
On the inside Either.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Yeah, it's all hidden .
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Oh crazy.
Okay, so what is the insidefinish?
I'm obviously doing a quickdrywall on that, because
typically you're drywalling onthe studs, right yeah?
Speaker 2 (04:44):
So what does it?
Look like now It'd be a plywoodsurface Plywood okay, it looks
like plywood.
You can see the sheathing andnailing for sign-off on that.
Right, okay.
And then we'll on-site do amechanical cavity where needed.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
So what thickness of plywood is that?
Half an inch, half an inch,same as normal.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Okay, crazy, okay, reversing conventional
construction in that regard, andwhat it allows us to do is have
a very precision panel and allof our air tightness and air
barriers to the inside, and sowe're, with that system, hitting
very, very low levels of airtightness with relative ease.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Okay, and then electrical conduit.
How does that all work?
Speaker 2 (05:19):
We just fur out the inside wall.
Okay.
So you just put an inch and ahalf where it's needed.
We used to put it in in thefactory.
Uh, we've slowed that down.
Uh, because what we're findingis the electric.
We can do it after theelectrician or mechanical to go
to town.
Here's a blank canvas.
How much faster is that?
And then we just all it's doingis holding drywall so we can
(05:40):
just block it out where neededokay, so you guys do that on
your end before they get there.
Depends on the scope and theproject.
But we're finding now thatbackframing is pretty easy.
Anybody can do that, so theydon't need anything specialized.
So when it leaves the factory,because we're no longer a
general contractor, we're nowsolely focused on off-site
construction, so our scope forus to come back and do that
(06:02):
later is too expensive.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
So we'll just keep it open.
It's easy for someone else todo.
Someone's just thinking like ifsomeone who wants a new
electrical outlet, like in thepast, you'd be pounding through
drywall and then there's nothingbehind that.
You've got plywood behind you.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
And as a building scientist not a building
scientist, but someone thatunderstands airflow, moisture
flow my bigger concern is thatrenovation you're doing to that
wall for a picture frame, anelectrical outlet or whatever.
Yeah, you're puncturing yourair barrier and your moisture
barrier.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
I see.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
A one centimeter square hole with air drive
brings in like a liter of water.
I forget what the rate is.
I can call it a day, it mighteven be an hour, right, and
that's where you get mold.
That's where you get mold,that's where you get rot.
That's where you get prettysignificant issues.
The performance of your hosedramatically drops.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
It's like giving a flat tire to your car Right Cool
.
So these panels, this is like akind of proprietary sort of mix
that you put together ofmaterials.
That is, do you have thatspinning on your website?
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Yeah, it's that way, but we've taken an interesting
choice.
We removed the word proprietary, so it's open source.
So the idea is that we weregoing to grow the industry as a
whole and let everybody producethat, so it's widely available.
We're working with.
A lot of the consulting I do iswith our large organizations BC
(07:26):
Housing, Metro Vancouver, lotsof contractors, lots of other
manufacturers that are alreadybuilding walls like this and
then just refining that assemblyto meet their manufacturing
spec and what's needed for theproject or projects.
So it's widely available.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
I'd like to come and see this.
Can I see it one day?
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Yeah, I'd like to come by.
They're banging nails for thenext couple of weeks.
It's pretty fun.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Yeah, okay, that's cool.
So you've got the wall panel.
What other components are youbuilding?
You said a lot of the time it'slike custom, because it's
obviously you're getting anorder that's for a particular
size.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Yeah, I mean right now, a lot of what we're working
on.
So the problem is right now isevery single house, every single
project is a one-off, uniquepiece, and it's where AEC, the
architectural housing process,is.
So we're doing a lot of work tostandardize that we also the
other product we produce quite abit of would be an open panel
(08:20):
for all your internal walls,your sheer walls.
We do floor cassettes, which isTGIs and plywood.
Don't overthink it, it's prettysimple but it does we then when
?
because we have a crane on site,it's speed right.
So we assembled a duplex injanuary, in five days wow crazy,
yeah, from foundation dancefloor on backfilled.
So then we took over the sitecrane.
(08:42):
Our panels flow in.
They do a floor a day, if not alittle faster.
I guess that one was a bitslower on my math on five days
and two floors but they rolledthrough it pretty quick.
So first floor walls, secondfloor floors, so that floor
cassette's a eight foot to 10foot by 20 foot, even 24 foot
piece, yeah.
So if you start to understandthose components and the lego
(09:05):
blocks that you're building withreally well, you start to value
up, optimize it, the Legoblocks that you're building with
really well, you start to value, optimize it.
And what we're doing right nowis we're just taking every
single existing house andbuilding the way we always have
and site built construction,stick built.
We do it really really well.
In North America we have verymuch a pickup truck culture,
yeah, and our project I've beenin construction for 15 years.
(09:27):
We were great at buyingtwo-by-fours at the last minute
at 7 am, every single one of myguys would go to the store, buy
what they need for the day, showup and build something or take
a delivery, and there is anefficiency in that, for sure,
but it's also just incrediblyinefficient Weather time delays,
site conditions, sending sixpeople to a site with no hot
(09:51):
lunch.
It's ridiculous.
Where that's what in thefactory?
You bring all that into thefactory and you start to gain
these pieces.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
So, as you see your business evolving, what is the
type of business that you areaspiring, that you want?
What line of work are youtrying to get Like?
If you do, you get those pillowthoughts when you're trying to
get to sleep at night and you'relike, if I could only just
crack this.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
That's what I'm laughing about, right now, okay,
smiling, you've got you've likenailed.
Nailed it is.
I spend a lot of time at nightfiguring that out.
Right now we're're focused onsort of the cutting edge, the
research development.
We call what we're doing in theshop more of a sandbox.
We have zero interest incompeting with the big
production.
We're in downtown Vancouver.
(10:34):
It's a pain in the butt to geta semi-truck to our shop.
It's never going to compete ona high-volume piece.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
Do you want that to get to that point though?
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Do you want to move out to the valley and get some
large production?
I want to dial in the digitalside and the process and then
have multiple manufacturerssupporting that across the
province.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
I got you yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
We've been doing a lot of work with indigenous
groups.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
So you want to create the brain?
Yeah, okay.
So what does the brain looklike?
Speaker 2 (11:01):
The brain is a digital system that's processing
a lot of data.
That takes all the way fromdesign iterations all the way to
the exact steps needed toproduce in various types of
factories.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
I see so would that look like a BIM model?
And then that BIM model isessentially their basic.
I'm going to call it drawing,but it's not drawing, so it's a
bin model, but their basic CADfile.
That is the project, howeverlarge the project is, and then
(11:38):
you have some kind of a pluginthat's like apply your
components.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Yeah, I mean that exists today, so in the app
stack that's totally available.
It was on it there.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
But you have all of your stuff in there.
What can apply to thatparticular?
Speaker 2 (11:54):
model.
Yeah, you have differentiterations and so you would
optimize to the differentproduct and the reality of being
able to be manufactured.
You've got to produceeverything from a laneway house,
adu all the way up to asix-story or even, arguably.
What we're looking at now issome mass timber components and
parts.
Yeah.
Like the wall system.
So we're talking a very broadspectrum of building types and I
(12:16):
think the yes, there's theproject-based thinking and
plugging those pieces inoptimizing your parts using the
Lego blocks effectively, but youhave various iterations.
Someone said it to me todayearlier Like you go to the Lego
blocks effectively, but you havevarious iterations Someone said
it to me today earlier you goto the Lego website, you can
select different iterations ofall those different blocks to
make it work for what you wantto build.
So I think that's what it needsto get to, but it also has to
(12:38):
core tie into the productionschedule.
So these shops, themanufacturing shops, live and
die by the volume they pump outand the efficiency of that and
as soon as you have anycapitalization in a shop or your
op costs and you have a week ora day shut down, it's dramatic
to your bottom line.
So I actually think it reallystems from that production
(13:01):
schedule is the digital brainand the process.
Our AAC process is also likethat the design development
we're working on some grants andsome working right now of
taking that manufacturingknowledge, those Lego blocks and
assigning best practices toeducate the early due diligence,
concept, phase process andschematic drawings so that
you're using those principlesand rules and guides very early
(13:25):
on in your building development.
Because the McKenzie curve orMcLean curve, the further we go
down the road, the decisionchange gets more and more
expensive.
I see yeah, and so with so manyof these decisions, the system
that you're using to build ahome for these projects and
buildings it started and engagedon in the very early process
(13:47):
and once you've gone sort ofdown those road, that track, you
can't turn and you're committedto that.
And sometimes that's wherewe're seeing offsite
construction fail because costoverruns, it wasn't designed
properly for that system andit's very difficult to pivot and
change.
And so I think that's whereeducation, knowledge, gap,
really understanding where thischange is occurring and like
(14:08):
changes the market, we justcan't do it the way we always
have been is a big part of thatbrain, of using that tool all
the way through.
So I think it's a pretty bigdigital platform is the truth to
make that all work.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Well, I would say.
I mean, you're clearly not theonly people on the planet doing
this.
What countries, what cities arelike pioneering this kind of
process?
Speaker 2 (14:30):
I mean, we're way behind Europe.
Switzerland, Austria, germanyare like light years ahead of us
.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
So what kind of things are they excelling at
that you could take someknowledge from?
Speaker 2 (14:44):
They there is no stick frame.
Even thinking so, their bigbattle there is to convince
people to get away from brick orconcrete and use timber frame.
Okay, and they're using quitelarge timber to do that.
I mean, we have a very existlike our most.
A lot of our buildings arepre-used wood right, so it's a
different argument.
they are they're using veryadvanced systems.
(15:08):
Within that regard, they're theautomation in their factories.
The capital scale in theirfactories is significant.
The universities, the courses,the education, but just the
breadth of knowledge that is isheld by every individual.
Yeah, um, I think there's alsoa um, an outlook that's
different.
Fundamentally, their investmentcycles in these large capital
(15:29):
factories have come fromgenerations.
So David Ringley, ringley Helmshe's third generation and
they've just invested someobscene number like $500 million
into a new factory in Germany,their Swiss company, and that's
his generation's big move andeach generation has done that
big move and he's doing that bigmove for 30, 40 years down the
(15:52):
road, whereas our investmentcycle in buildings we're really
short.
The investors over here arelike what's my return in two
years?
And he's just not going to getthat In this housing cycle, the
construction cycle, the timethese things take to build.
That basic outlook is different.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
But coming from the Swiss and the Germans.
I mean, isn't it like theprefab business in the elevator
business has been around foryears, years?
That's what I mean and that'sthe perfect model.
That's the one.
They've been doing that forever, yeah, and the building's
different every time, thingsdifferent every time, and they
(16:33):
have probably just minordifferences on a myriad of the
same model.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Yeah, you'd be surprised they still like even
those companies have, for themost part, produce a lot of
typologies.
It surprised me.
I thought they'd sort of likehave one really focused one and
just pump it out yeah um, butyou'd be even for their
production schedules to befilled and to really work it.
They are definitely diversifiedand flexibility is built into
(16:56):
their processing system to beable to survive.
Code changes, product changes,innovation in what is being
built is constant, but theirprocessing ability to execute
what is it about the Swiss andthe Germans?
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Why does he go to this stuff?
Tick, tick, tick.
They're process-driven.
Is that what it is?
I think so.
Or is it a culture?
Speaker 2 (17:15):
thing.
I mean I'd say it's both, likethe culture drives that process,
thinking of just really qualityexecution.
Yeah, let's be honest, the lookat their buildings and what
they're building compared tohere, it's dramatically
different.
And even our wood.
One of the problems we'rehaving with mass timber right
(17:35):
now is that our ability as a BCforestry industry produced
lumber is second to none in theworld.
We pump out commodity spaghetti2x4, 2x6 like nobody else, but
it's not not, it's too, it's toorough, it's too.
It's not a great quality ofmaterial that gets used.
Uh, for like for the masstimber, you need a more
precision piece.
(17:56):
So you have verticallyintegrated companies like
kleznikoff that own their ownforest plant, their own forest,
process their own wood.
Yeah, processing it to a muchhigher tolerance for their clt
yeah, I I have to admit.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
I mean, you know, I went and got some solid white
oak.
I think it was like 1x2.
And it's a ganjo.
None of it's straight.
I'm like what is this?
And that should be straight.
I mean it's not like I'm buyingplywood.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Yeah, that's like a high-end hardwood, like imagine
buying SPF number two and better.
It's like a spaghetti, but it'slike.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
It's all over the place.
Yeah, I just don't understandwhy that is Would that be like
that in Switzerland?
Speaker 2 (18:36):
They use a different.
They use much more of atimber-based system, so it's
more of like timber framing.
So they're using metric, butthey would be using like 4x4s
and 6x6s for the most part.
And the answer is no.
I mean we also got tounderstand that we're primarily
an export market.
We literally see someridiculously no number like
don't quote me on this, but like2% or 5% of our product ends up
(18:59):
in our houses.
Here we are exportingeverything.
Um, so there's j grade, likejapan grade is a high end, like
all of our high end would go tothe top, highest dollar can you
excuse me for one second?
Speaker 1 (19:11):
yeah, I'm knocking everything over here.
Sorry about that.
No worries, ping pong isgetting, it's getting action.
Yeah, yeah, it's getting.
You don't want the extreme pingpong.
That's why we have the slowball.
(19:33):
Yeah, the slow ball.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Slow ball.
You need a wiffle ball.
Ping pong.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
Yeah, that's cool, yeah, so I.
So what do you think Is?
Are materials going to bedriving this innovation
specifically?
I mean, like right now you guysare putting components together
at your shop that are basicallyit's off-site construction.
(19:57):
It's the stuff you would,besides your panels, the stuff
you would be doing on-site,you're doing off-site, and
shipping to-site.
Construction is the stuff youwould, besides your panels, the
stuff you would be doing on-site, you're doing off-site, and
shipping to site and assemblingpretty quick, correct, yeah,
exactly.
But, you're using lots of woodscrews nails same stuff.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Right, all the same stuff.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
I guess what I'm getting at is that at what point
is there off-site composite 3Dprinting?
Let's go there.
I got you when this stuff isjust being made.
Precision You're not nailingstuff together, because it's
actually formed together.
Yep, large build plates.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
I think it's a necessity and I got to be
careful with a whole whack ofNDAs with 3D printed companies,
robotic companies and that levelof automation, yeah.
But yeah, that's where it'sgoing.
If we need to build faster,cheaper and better, we can't do
it the same way we've been doingit.
No.
You need a seismic shift and Ithink it will be material-driven
(20:55):
.
But don't ask me to bet on whatmaterial right now, because I
think there's a lot of like.
There's an opportunity in woodand I think it changes region by
region.
Cold form steel is getting alot of action right now for a
lot of good reasons, but I thinkit's also a little
short-sighted in what they'retrying to do there and it won't
ultimately win it because it'snot the right level of
(21:15):
sustainability.
The impact of that material istough.
Wood I said I was lumber brokerat the start of this, really on
Wood I said I was a lumberbroker at the start of this,
early on Wood, I think is acritical piece the mass timber
elements and really it's stillsuch a micro part of our like.
All this conversation is suchin its infancy, but you're going
to have something that comes inand breaks it and disrupts
(21:37):
properly, and it's a matter oftime in my opinion.
I'm not a huge fan of the 3Dprinting where a big printer
shows up and CNC's a house outof a nozzle.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
That's kind of weird, like the whole thing that looks
like icing.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Yeah, yeah, and not to hit on the technology like I
think down in Texas in certainregions it makes a lot of sense.
In our wet coast it's just notviable in my opinion, unless
something dramatically changesin the material and it's an
overuse of concrete and blah,blah blah.
That being said, I'm havingconversations with 3D printed
panels.
So we've got this panel that wecan really panelize.
We know how the trucking works,we know how to install it
(22:12):
really well, so let's play withthat.
What can we do in a wetenvironment in Vancouver that we
know we're going to be flyingthese through the rain, in a wet
environment in Vancouver thatwe know we're going to be flying
these through the rain?
So what is the materials?
How can we get that interiorfinished, exterior, finished
window, on assembly, locked andloaded?
It leans to 3D modular in someareas, but 3D modular has its
(22:33):
other issues.
But where do we find that sweetspot of a really bulletproof
panel?
And I think we're like in mywhiteboards and my visions at
night.
I can see it, um, but it justcomes down to scale, economics,
um, and finding that material.
Yeah.
A micro CLT hemlock panel with a3d printed cladding that's
thermally broken.
Precision made that assemblesin days Sounds great.
(22:56):
It's there.
It's not that far off it's notthat far off.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
It's just a matter of putting up the money to make it
happen.
Well, it seems like it would be.
Um, yeah, sorry, people arewalking by melatonin saying hi,
and my eyes are doing thisbecause I'm recognizing people
um, but um, yeah, there'sdefinitely the like I look at.
I look at a lot of 3d printingstuff and I think of, wow,
there's the fact that some carparts, um, some it can be used
(23:24):
just by 3d printing.
It didn't have to be.
You know, in the old days I'dhave to, you know, make a mold
and have the alloy done, but nowthat can.
So there's a lot of compositematerials that are like super
strong, stronger than the otherstuff was.
And you know, to me the like,even the two by four, okay, like
, let's just say that you've got16-inch centers.
Let's say you've got like an8-foot wall you want to make,
(23:46):
and typically it would be atrack on the bottom.
You typically do it with steel,now Steel track on the bottom
and then your steel stud.
Well, you've got all the screws, you've got all the BS that's
got to go in there.
That could be made withsomething that has different
layers to it.
So the inside layer is a um isgoing to add to the structure
(24:09):
structural integrity becauseit's solid, and then the rest of
it could actually be a hardened, more of a hardened material
you're using less of, but uh,it's kind of like a totally kind
of a what do you call it?
like a skin, like an orange, forinstance, like the peel yeah
and the peel is the stuff thatyou screw into um, so it seems
(24:29):
like there's, but that couldhave no joins done properly with
3d printing totally, and youguys could be pumping those out
of your.
Yeah, but the speed also is theother thing.
All right, the speed of makingthis stuff is so low.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
It's this is it right , like it's the and the speed.
There's two factors, I think.
Speed you hit it up with speed.
The other major factor thatpeople gloss over quickly is
just the pure scale.
The volume of materials thatgoes into our buildings is
staggering.
Yeah, like I mean like you'dhave to have like hoppers of oh,
of this stuff, this stuff andwhat is that stuff?
(25:03):
Spools and spools and spools,and right now to make it
structurally work and all thesethings you can like.
It's carbon graphite.
Yeah, eps, like Nylon.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Nymically lozed at foam.
There's nylon with graphite inthere?
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Yeah, it's.
It's a lot of chemicals that Ican't pronounce or understand,
whereas what we've been tryingto push forward and one of the
beauties of wood is it's anatural, bio-based product that
is incredibly light, incrediblystrong.
So I think there's a use forwood in that it's also the
biophilic design, the look, themonotonous-y of our white walls
is what we're finding in a lotof projects.
(25:38):
The introduction of wood ofnature is very beneficial to
people's health and has a lot ofqualities that we often call
the biophilic design.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Biophilic design.
It's the third time I've heardthat in the past two days.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Well, I mean, you're real close to the Woodworks
booth.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
They talked about it.
Yeah, someone else talked aboutit too.
So, in terms of do you know onething, like when you see the
finishing of a home on theinside interior, I think of how
much environmental waste hasgone into the one color.
(26:15):
It's not even a color white.
Do you ever think about this?
I think that Like white Becausethe pigment of like you mean
colorless, colorless, no color,no color.
Just like to make somethingwhite.
Okay, so there's white innature, but it's a different
kind of white.
It's not that milky opacitywhite.
(26:36):
If you look at a petal, that's awhite flower.
It's not the same kind of whitea petal, that's a white flower.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
It's not the same kind of white.
We had to make this white,simply white.
I'm trying to remember thebenjamin moore code for simply
white, which I've used on likethe last 15 projects.
Um, it's no white, like it'sjust white, and that's what
everything gets painted.
You think of the layers, thebuild-up, like it's we to get
these layers and I mean, Iunderstand on the interior side
there's also there's fire,there's a whole bunch of things
that these layers and walls aredoing and control layers.
(27:03):
But I think, and it's also whatI find, I mean I got, I got
three kids and two dogs at homeand they're in the ripe age of
two, five and seven and they aredestructive.
Our house is getting destroyed.
These environments we'rebuilding are incredibly fragile.
They're not resilient.
Well, yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
You drive your remote-controlled car into the
wall, you get a hole in thedrywall.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
You write on the walls and you clean it with your
Mr Eraser and dig a holethrough the paint.
The corner would be like Ihaven't even gone into the
bathroom yet.
Why are we using the bathroomis a wet environment.
Why aren't we sealing our fullfloors Like they are very
fragile?
Yeah.
As a builder that's built manyhouses, my warranty calls are
(27:48):
always around the bathroom, yeah, and oftentimes user error of
like yeah, we spilled a wholewhack of water and it drained to
the floor below.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
You're supposed to make like a sink of the floor,
right it's not in code.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
It's not required.
It's smart though.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
It's smart.
I mean that's what like?
I mean it gets back to cost andall those pieces.
But no, the reality of ourfragility is of our houses.
There's an interesting productthat you were talking about like
3D printed.
There's some people weretalking to me about recycled
plastic.
We have a huge amount ofgarbage plastic.
Can you use that?
Where does that all go thesedays?
Speaker 1 (28:27):
It gets shipped overseas, or burnt or just
filled.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Yeah, I'm not the expert there, but I would say,
and it's an interesting piece,but you also like, literally
with the volume of material weuse in construction, by the time
you get that available andproduced do you have an?
industry that's now creatingplastic to be used in houses.
Oh yeah, which is the back likethe backlash of that is
significant, but it is a wasteproduct that we should be using.
(28:52):
Yeah, it does have someattributes that make a lot of
sense of resiliency, lasting along time.
Like to use the attributes it'susing to make a huge island in
the ocean for our housingproblem.
Yeah, which.
I think those sort of like youget into these deep material
conversations that I think arereally interesting, of what is
that product that's widelyavailable?
It also quickly goes intoregional.
(29:14):
I get to talk about projectsall over North America and
sometimes all over the world.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
So you're in a really , really interesting segment
right now in the market.
Yeah, like it is so excitingabout the opportunity.
Where are things in the?
Are there venture capitalcompanies that are interested in
your kind of like?
Is there money to be other thangovernment grants, which are
(29:43):
pretty, usually pretty small?
Is there any like?
Are there any global VCs whoare interested in this kind of
innovation and building products?
Speaker 2 (29:52):
I think it's I mean.
If you know any, let me know.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
I'm just curious whether or not there's an
ecosystem for that, like thereis in tech.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
I think there is starting to be, and I think
actually what we just talkedabout with that digital brain is
a pretty heavy tech piece and Ithink the VC side will come
through that tech VC.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
It would there.
I'm just wondering if it'sgoing to port itself to the
material side.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
What's happening, though, is you've got big
multinational companies.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
Like Lafarge and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Yeah, or St Cobain is digging into offsite pretty
heavy.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
What about?
What's the other large one, theHeidelberg?
Speaker 2 (30:25):
Yeah, I mean, those are the.
So what's that's concrete,based like Lafarge.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
High School.
I know they are, but I'm justsaying they're probably looking
at it.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
They're digging in.
They also understand thateverybody's trying to do their
best to reduce concrete on everysingle one of the projects.
There's a lot of carbon rightnow, so they're going to build
their electric car.
They're going to figure outsomething.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
They've been the gas car for so many years.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
And I'd actually give the concrete industry massive
credit.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
They've done a lot of stuff.
They've done a ton.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
They've actually moved way faster than anybody
else in the constructionindustry in that space and I
think that's really encouraging.
And those are the big, bigplayers.
St Cobain, which is certainty,which is drywall, all that
interior stuff and a ton ofmembranes and layers and
insulation um, they've got,they've, they've developed an
off-site system and they'rereally pushing it.
Um, I think there's more andmore interest.
(31:09):
I think there's still there'sno sure bet right now.
It's still really early, and Ithink that's causing some peace.
It's also, I think, within theoutside construction space and
we've seen it in across the is.
Where does it actually?
Who are the major players?
Who's going to be thatinstructor?
Who's going to be like?
there's the enthusiastic startupthe enthusiastic amateur
(31:30):
startups yeah, then maybe theyget something that runs.
Or is it a sawmill that'svertically integrated that gets
something going?
Is it a building supplier thatstarts getting into offsite and
they're just adding value totheir supply chain?
Is it material suppliers?
You have all these differentplayers dabbing their toe in.
Developers are probably theones that fail the most and
(31:52):
that's where we get a lot offailures in offsite construction
, because they've got apre-existing core competency
with the way they've been doingit and that change management on
an internal organization isreally difficult.
So it's kind of a bit of a.
The other part of what I sleepat night is what do you bet on
Like?
Which is that entrance that'sactually going to make some
ground here?
Yeah.
And I don't think there's likethere's no obvious clear-cut
(32:13):
winner.
It's still sort of that earlyWild West where you're figuring
it out.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
I think your brain's a winner.
I appreciate that Well, thebrain itself, because you can
keep changing the outputs.
You can't.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
This is a long-term investment strategy.
It's not going to happen in twoweeks.
It's not a quick hit.
So you have to be flexible tomarket change and I can
guarantee you product innovationis coming, code change is
coming, all those pieces.
There is change.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Change inevitable.
I just had Corey on from thecity of Vancouver.
That was interesting.
Yeah, yeah, Lots of things thatyou know they're obviously
would like to be doing too.
There's huge inefficiencies,that Massive yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
All over the place.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
All right.
Well, chris, this has been veryinteresting.
I think we should have a longerchat in the studio, probably
about this stuff, because I kindof geek out on where this is
all going.
So that's actually pretty coolAll right.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
So how do people get hold of you?
It's the best right now to headto bcollectivecom.
Not BC, not BC 1B.
The word collective no spacecom.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Okay, and then you're on LinkedIn.
I am on LinkedIn, chris Hill.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
All right, super generic name, but I've been
pretty popular these days, so Ithink I'm getting up there.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Perfect, sounds great .
Okay, well, pleasure.
Thanks for spending time withme.
Appreciate it.
Thank you, cheers.
Well, that does it for anotherepisode of the Site Visit.
Thank you for listening.
Be sure to stay connected withus by following our social
accounts on Instagram andYouTube.
You can also sign up for ourmonthly newsletter at
sitemaxsystemscom slash the sitevisit, where you'll get
(33:47):
industry insights, pro tips andeverything you need to know
about the site visit podcast andSitemax, the job site and
construction management tool ofchoice for thousands of
contractors in North America andbeyond.
Sitemax is also the engine thatpowers this podcast.
All right, let's get back tobuilding.
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