March 25, 2025 • 38 mins
Rick Wagner, President of Maxwell Floors and a 43-year construction veteran, tackles the tough conversations our industry needs.
The cultural disconnect between developers' passion and field workers' daily grind manifests in concerning ways. Mental health claims sometimes mask a deeper lack of commitment, while the housing crisis creates a profound sense of disconnection when workers can't afford what they're building.
Decades ago, homeownership required roughly ten years of income; now, it demands closer to thirty. This shift challenges traditional expectations and forces a reevaluation of career and financial planning. The rise of instant gratification has also shortened career outlooks, reducing five-year plans to six-month horizons.
Yet solutions emerge through community-building efforts that bring trades together. Rick advocates for leadership with genuine altruism, earlier education about construction careers, and better management of expectations while showcasing the legitimate financial opportunities that exist for committed professionals.
This conversation explores how young workers might consider alternative paths—perhaps securing that recreational property first while renting—and why immigration brings motivated individuals who recognize the opportunities in trades. Rick reminds us that construction offers viable paths forward for those willing to believe in themselves, plan for the future, and commit to the work.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
All right, I am here with Rick Wagner of Maxwell
Floors.
President, how long have youbeen doing?
Speaker 2 (00:06):
this for Rick.
Oh my gosh, 1981.
I started as an installer 1981.
You want to go all the wayforward?
That's about 43 years.
Wow, yes, wow.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
You saw Expo.
You saw the whole thing.
Did not see Expo.
You didn't see it.
Where were you?
Speaker 2 (00:21):
I was away in Switzerland doing a flooring
apprenticeship for three yearsin Zurich, Switzerland.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Wow, yeah, from the Swiss, from the Swiss, no wonder
you're so good at, it have tobe organized.
We were just talking about,like on the past podcast, why
the Swiss and Germans are sogood at engineering.
It's just a culture thing,right.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
It's just a culture thing Very regimented,
regimented, yeah, veryregimented, regimented, yeah, a
bit dry, a bit dry, but when itcomes to being organized and
having a routine, they have aroutine and they also have
research and development thatallows you to try new things
within an organization, even inan apprenticeship.
We could come up with ideas andif we made it better, they
(00:59):
would shift right on the spot.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
And they have like eight weeks holiday mandated by
the government.
Oh, that's for sure.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Actually you'd have a 13-month wage, so you know you.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Didn't those things make a huge difference, right?
They do, absolutely, becausewe're not doing any of that here
in Canada.
No, what do you think it isthat we here's?
The strange observation is that, according to I don't know what
statistic this is, I don't knowwho came up with this number,
but apparently Canadians are 60%as productive as Americans.
(01:31):
Keep hearing this, right, andyet you would think that the
Swiss model or the French modelor the of having lots of
vacations that they would be theones, would be 60%.
But we don't even give, wedon't even do the fun part, and
(01:52):
we're still sucking wind here.
So what do you think?
Is this a cultural thing?
Where are we at with thingslike we're we?
I really wanted to chat withyou specifically and this isn't
necessarily for you to provideme an example of culture in your
company, etc.
But I think you're pretty goodat asking the basic litmus test
(02:13):
of construction in generalBritish Columbia, canada when
are we at in terms of morale,leadership, etc.
Where do you see the gaps andholes and what's the
opportunities Gaps?
Speaker 2 (02:26):
and holes.
Very yeah, we've beenwitnessing that ever since this
thing called the iPhone camealong.
The iPhone, like let's go backto it.
If you want to see kids I meanthose kids that I see that are
in a restaurant and we go outand they're coloring with
crayons.
They're going to have thecreativity mind.
You know, you've got thistechnology that's taking over
where kids have this technologyin front of them and they're
(02:47):
losing their creativity.
So how can we ask them to becritical thinkers later in life
if we are just taking therelaxed mode of not doing the
right thing?
And the right thing is it's gotto be difficult, and by
difficult I mean it's not easyto be a parent, but also we're
not, as leaders, we can't behiding either.
We need to get out there.
We need to.
(03:08):
You know we talked a littleearlier about different things.
We've got to open up the can ofworms.
We've got to make our teamsheard.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
What are the can of worms?
To double click on thatspecifically.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Can of worms.
Mental well-being, health.
I mean there's some individualsreally taking advantage of it
and it's a concern.
We know who they are within ourown company.
But I'm hearing this from tradecontractors across Canada being
, as a national advisory to theboard, just not totally
(03:40):
committed.
They're going to work nine tofive or the eight to four and
they're just doing their job.
They're not being proactive,they're not really too
interested in trying to make itbetter.
It's a job, it pays the billsand I'm not really going
anywhere, so I'm going to livein the moment and that comes
along with not saving.
Some of my concerns with withthat other can of worms are
(04:06):
technology on the job site.
They're wanting to have musicall the time and but they're
doing it through earbuds.
So now we have health andsafety concerns oh yeah, so we
have individuals that are veryself-centered.
They're not being part of thecommunity on site.
It's very individualistic.
Or before we would be learningall the time, somebody would
walk over and say, hey, there'sa better way to do this.
(04:27):
You know, why don't you holdthis hammer in your right hand
instead of your left?
There's an easier way to usethis tool.
Okay, we're not seeing thathappen now, and I'm whether it
be a mechanical trade, whetherit be a window, roofing,
excavation- so this is whatyou're hearing out there this is
what we're hearing is some ofthis is what we're seeing when I
walk on site.
I mean, we're fortunate enoughto do site visits.
(04:48):
We've got to do inspections,quality control, and you can ask
you know, why is that?
Have you been following theplans?
No, actually I left the workorder in my car, but this is how
I did it on my last project.
Oh, I see so there's a lot oflack of commitment to really
(05:10):
getting involved.
They're just there to do their,they're just there to show up.
Sometimes we feel it's just,they're just a body on site.
Okay.
And that's a very unfortunatething.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
So I've talked about this and tried to conceptualize
the reason for this.
From a macro level,construction is often people
having to execute on someoneelse's passion.
Just hear me out with this.
(05:42):
You have either a developer ora property owner or somebody who
has their dream on this project, right, okay, they're somewhat
insulated from natural how muchwork it is to actually see that
thing through but they have thisglistening plan that they've
made.
That's been this dream.
They go to sleep at night.
(06:02):
They're like, ah, I can't waituntil this project gets built
and they're all excited about.
It's all glitzy and glassy andbeautiful.
Now, that's that person'spassion.
As you keep going down thechain of production, all the way
down to the field workers toshow up and clock in their time
and do something perhaps dull,dirty or dangerous right, the
(06:23):
transfer of that person isexecuting the passion of this
person up here and they don'thave that same passion.
It hasn't transcended downthrough the line and there's a
number of factors of the reasonwhy that might not be the
passion of that person.
Obviously they're not going toand obviously they're not going
to.
(06:45):
We have got to a point wherethere is a housing crisis here,
specifically in British Columbia, where many people who are
working on jobs think that theywill never be able to even live
in the thing they're building.
(07:06):
Right, and I'm not talking thebutterfly here at $3,000 a
square foot.
I'm talking, you know, asix-story stick-built condo in
Abbotsford even.
Still, I don't even know how Iwould get a down payment.
I don't know.
I've gone through fourdifferent construction companies
over the past two years.
I don't know.
I've gone through fourdifferent construction companies
over the past two years.
(07:26):
I don't have a solid job.
So there becomes thisdiscontent there, from the
person with the passion down tothe person that has to execute
the job.
So do you think that?
What do you think about thatparadigm?
Speaker 2 (07:43):
It's a big paradigm.
I mean, you've got young peoplelooking at developers and we
don't necessarily need to singlethem out because developers
themselves.
They put a lot of energy andeffort and investment and time
and learning to make this profit, and profit's not a dirty word.
What's required.
It's necessary if we're going tocontinue.
(08:05):
We have an apprentice thatwants to start.
It's very difficult when youhave an industry that's looked
upon as the fallback.
Oh, I wasn't smart enough to goto university.
Yeah, it's interesting you saythat, so we have that in Europe.
I mean, we talked a little bitabout Europe and New Zealand.
The trades are respected andwe've talked about this in
(08:25):
another podcast.
It's the respect of the trades,but it's a belief in your own
system.
It's a belief in you that youknow what I can do this and that
develops the passion.
So you have to.
Really, the culture in thesedifferent project sites can give
you great quality, greatcontrol and build it up.
(08:47):
You're getting to havebarbecues on site, so teams are
getting to know each otherbetter.
We're going back to what wasreally working back in the day.
We're having food trucks thatare showing up now and one
company is paying for that and aweek later you're having a full
barbecue.
So we're bringing peopletogether.
(09:08):
They're not working inisolation.
We have to eliminate, in myopinion, we have to eliminate
this isolation.
It's becoming a real concern.
These kids are going home, andwhen I say kids, I'm talking
young people and young peoplecoming into the trades.
Nowadays, some of them haveworked through their skip the
dishes and been servers and allof that, and so they're getting
(09:28):
into construction a little lateron in life and it's 30, 35.
And they go oh wow, I can makesome good money and I still
maybe have the possibility ofowning a home.
Yeah, where back in the day itmaybe took 10 years of your
income or 10 years of incomeearning that you could afford a
home.
Now it's going to be 30 yearsAt least, at least.
(09:49):
But if we were going to look atsome nations as well, is it
necessary?
Why is it the government'sresponsibility to say that I
need to be able to own a house?
There are countries where 80%of the population rents.
They're having these eight10-week holidays a year.
Their car may be the statussymbol.
They're having these eight tenweek holidays a year.
Their car may be the statussymbol.
So they're living a very goodlife.
If everybody wants to own anapartment or a house, is that my
(10:17):
responsibility?
I think my responsibility insociety is to make sure that we
pay our taxes.
People are educated, we havehealth care for them, but when
it comes to housing, I don'tthink it's my Well and I talk
amongst other peers.
Is it really my responsibilityor our responsibility that
(10:39):
everybody has to own a house?
I don't think so.
I think to have a secure placewith a roof over their head.
They have a job, they can go towork and they're going to have
those vacations, they're lookedafter, they got medical and
dental and they can save for thefuture.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
That's in whatever capacity they want to.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Whatever capacity they want to.
But at the end, yeah, I meanthat's going to stir some people
and say you know that's notright.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
No, I get you because I think that.
Do you want a bubbly by the way?
Drink I'm good.
Okay, but this is theexpectation that we've set.
We have set an expectation.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
And it's uncomfortable, and it's
uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
But also the reason for the owning versus renting
thing, I think here anyway, isthe fact that rent is so
expensive.
Rent is crazy Comparative toComparative to those other
places, because if you're alocal in some of those European
countries, your rent is less.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Well, we also have to look at, you know and comparing
is a dangerous thing, becauseif we're looking at countries in
Europe, they're much smaller,so transportation is already in
place, so you may not need toown a vehicle to get there If
you want to say I need someaffordability of rent and you're
going to live in Chilliwack andyou're going to.
(12:01):
it's going to be $1,000 less foryou to live in Chilliwack than
it is to live in Kitsilanodowntown.
But you now are sitting in yourcar for two hours a day and
you're paying an extra $100 agas a week.
So now we've got $400 in fuelcosts, let alone the wear and
tear on your car, and you've gotfive days in the week that
you've just paid have another 10hours.
(12:23):
So that's 40 hours and you'reworth 20 bucks an hour.
Well, you have just offset.
Why didn't you stay living inkits?
Speaker 1 (12:30):
That's very true.
On the renting in kits you mean, versus owning On the renting
in kits versus.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
So people are moving outside of the city for
affordability, yeah, yet they'respending all this time becoming
tired, overworked.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Yeah, it's a gong show.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
So it.
Yet they're spending all thistime becoming tired overworked.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Yeah, it's a gong show, it's the ground to it.
The weird thing is, even if youhad that, $1,000 savings is
people don't need to getapproved to spend $100 a week on
gas.
They don't need to get approvedto spend two hours in their car
.
These are things that are theseother factors that we only seem
(13:10):
to value the property value.
That's the only thing, becausewhat we've been taught is and
that's because Vancouver hasgrown up on this over the past
20 years is that it's grown upon.
If I buy a house, it'll go upin value.
Well, with interest rates theway it is now, you're barely
paying down any principal andyou are mostly hopefully looking
(13:32):
for that lift versus rent.
Okay, but that lift is kind ofnot there now.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Well, I think there's two parts to this, james.
I think the first part ispeople were hoping to make a lot
of money.
I wouldn't call it investment.
We went past the investment.
They wanted to make the quickbuck, okay, and that would help
them then save some money to putit on a down payment.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Right, that makes sense, right.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
So what happens in an economy where we've got this
moving, the value of property isgoing up so quickly in an
apartment and then we have aneconomy turning.
So not understanding whatyou're investing in the number?
I'm very concerned right nowwith the number of residences
(14:19):
out there that are being builtthat are all the developers
going to survive?
I don't think so.
I mean, we're seeing developersright now in solvent going into
bankruptcy.
The young ones we, many moonsago, having a house with a white
picket fence, that was ourmodel, that went away a long
(14:40):
time ago and that was supposedto be.
You're gonna retire in thathouse, everything's fine.
So we have modeled for our kidsand modeled for others that
owning a home is the right thing, it's the be-all to end-all,
yeah, and it's not it's not wehave not.
We didn't find a work-lifebalance earlier on.
(15:02):
I think the young people todayhave a very different outlook in
what their lifestyle is, verydifferent than what mine looks
like.
Yeah, you know they have thework-life balance.
You know I'm going on holidaysnext week.
Sorry, I didn't give you enoughnotice and we see that and it's
happening all the time.
I don't really feel that.
(15:22):
Well, I know we're facing adeadline, but I'm not coming to
work tomorrow.
I get those phone calls andit's unfortunate.
So we have to one understand isthat mental well-being?
Is it mental health going on?
And then it comes all the wayback to if you want to have this
freestyle lifestyle, you can'thave it both ways.
(15:44):
You can't hope to make and owna home at a later date.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
And have consistency.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
And have consistency.
So there's routines in all ofwhat makes a developer tick, and
I think it's very hard on thedevelopers themselves when we
need to organize trades.
I mean the trades themselves,the ones that are working, are
very, very busy and we, the goodones, can always have more
(16:10):
people.
But we're also seeing that it'ssuch an expensive city.
We want to have lower costs.
Well, you can only go so low inyour costs without affecting
the performance of the building,and then we get into life cycle
and then we get intomaintenance, and it happens with
our transit system.
I mean, one of the big problemswe have is infrastructure.
Big problems we have isinfrastructure.
(16:30):
If we were to have built therapid transit out to Langley
years and years ago, we'd haveprobably easily another 50,000
homes.
That would make it moreaffordable, but we wait until
it's too late, in my opinion.
Yeah, infrastructure has to belooked at.
So we need to look at the wholeproblem.
(16:51):
There isn't just one answerhere.
You know transportation's there, we need health care and if
we're moving people into theseareas, then we need to have
schools with them.
We're going to have grocerystores, but if we don't have the
people to build it now we haveimmigration and then immigration
comes in and that's taking jobsaway.
So you can see and apartmentsyeah.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Yeah Well, so you've touched on a number of things I
think are are.
So you know, there's the termthe individual contributor, yes,
and that individual contributoris that person that is kind of
insular in their thinking.
They want to run their own show, they want to come in, they
want to do their thing.
If they're not feeling wellthat day, hey, it's my mental
(17:32):
health, I need to worry aboutthat, which is kind of true.
However, I always find thatthere seems to be a huge gap in
between how nasty and brutal thedollar is.
When I say the dollar, I don'tmean the Canadian dollar versus
(17:54):
US dollar.
Us dollar I mean the dollar.
To earn is a brutal mistress.
It is nasty, right, it is themost cutthroat thing to try and
go and get, and the businessowners that try and get that and
then have to pay those to dothat work.
There's an expectation that thebrutalness doesn't transfer.
(18:16):
It has to be insulated from anyof that brutality of the dollar
, and that's just not trueBecause the dollar is hard to
make.
So I think what we're findingis is we're.
We're finding that we havecreated and I don't know whether
or not it's the boomergeneration, with the millennials
(18:39):
who have been, you know, bubblewrapping the world for these,
for kids, and on top of that,they're in a consumption economy
where they're just staring attheir phone for five hours when
they get home and consuming andnot making anything.
They're just.
They're not even learning.
They might be learning, butthey might be learning.
The problem is that they're not.
(19:00):
It's not an interactivelearning process, it's a one.
It's like drinking from a firehose process, right, and the
velocity, I mean it's not goodfor serotonin levels.
There's a whole bunch of thingsthere.
So when we I did this podcast alive podcast like this in
Toronto at the Building Show,and I had these two advocates
(19:21):
for mental health andconstruction on and this, there
was this clip of us and it is.
It's got 3,000 comments on it.
It's had 200,000 views on it.
It's had 200,000 views on it.
It was quite radioactive andwhat made that happen was that
we were talking about what theexpectation is and you hit on it
(19:45):
earlier is that there's othercountries in the world who
respect people in trades and ifthe expectation right now is,
this is a fallback, this is whatyou do when you this is always
a plan B or C, it's not a plan A.
So the plan B or C paradigm iskind of a mess for people
because as soon as they get intothe job there's a self-esteem
(20:07):
issue right away.
Yes.
And then there's things likewell, maybe on only the bigger
job sites is flushing toilets.
There is, we have a I know thatthere's the United States, you
know MAGA thing that's going onand RFK is doing the MAHA thing.
I mean I said to Andrew Hansonfrom Site Partners I said how
(20:29):
about making constructionhealthy again For food?
Yes, we have a food epidemic inconstruction.
Andrew Hanson from SitePartners, I said how about
making construction healthyagain for food?
Yes, we have a food epidemic inconstruction.
The amount of.
I mean I'm sure the quickservice restaurants aren't going
to like me saying this, butwe're poisoning our crews with
all this crap food and it's notgreat for chemicals in the body.
It doesn't make them mind.
(20:49):
It's not optimal, that's forsure.
I mean it might not be asdangerous as a lot of people say
that this kind of food is, butI can tell you for sure it's not
the ultimate fuel to be puttingin the body to get the best
output.
So we've got a lot of work todo, I think, in the construction
industry.
Like, what do you think aboutall that stuff?
Speaker 2 (21:09):
Well, I think we've got to go back to community.
We've got to go back tocommunity, We've got to get out
of this mentality of what's init for me and start working.
I mean working in teams.
People work better, they'rehappier, they're more productive
.
To go back even to thatleadership model family as a
(21:30):
whole.
There's a lot of familybreakups.
And then there's when I sayfamily breakups, I'm not just
talking about divorce itself Ithink family within siblings
that one sibling goes into theconstruction world and another
one goes into health sciences,and it's like, oh, you're
smarter than me.
And it's like, no, you're notsmarter than me, you just have a
passion and you're followingyour passion.
Different path yeah, just acomplete different path and, I
(21:52):
think, moving ahead.
If we look at the ethnicitygroups here in Canada that are
coming together, I mean myparents were immigrants and
there would be many times wewould head out to a society
event and then we would gettogether with a different
country society event and party.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
So where did your parents come from?
Speaker 2 (22:14):
My parents were from Switzerland.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
From Switzerland, okay.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Yeah, emigrated.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Oh Wagner.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Wagner, that's right.
So that was a big part of it.
So we would get together inthese groups and if something
was going on and say, hey, youknow, work's a little slow, well
, I maybe have something for you, but these, the community, is
getting together every month.
For, for one thing, we don'treally see the community getting
together.
One of the one of the somethingthat we just saw, and it was
(22:43):
only a week well, because fournations cup, yeah, like that
brought our country together.
We're not just talking bringingour community together.
I mean, the Four Nations Cup toCanada, that was a survival for
the country winning that To theUS, it was just a sporting
event.
So we all have a differentperception of what we need, but
(23:08):
we do recognize that when we wonthat as a country, as a
community, we came together andboy were we proud.
We've got to get back tofiguring out how to do that, and
we can't do it as an individual, that's true.
So we can do it on site, we can.
Trades can get together.
Trades can have their tradeparty.
That's why we're starting tosee more and more of that, and I
(23:29):
have to think some of thegeneral contractors are
organizing that and saying hey,maxwell, it's your turn.
You know you haven't been onsite because this site's been
operating for two years, but ina month we're going to ask you
to have enough hamburgers for 80workers on site, absolutely.
I mean, is it an expense thatyou don't think of?
(23:49):
Yes, but when one gets tounderstand the other trade, or
just listen, and you know, shootthe information it's.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Well, it's a collective effort.
Yeah, I mean, that makes senseto me.
I think that the Brits do it.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
You know they do it going to the pub.
New Zealand does it throughtheir rugby.
I mean the All Blacks Boy.
Are they proud.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
You know what?
Speaker 2 (24:10):
boy are they proud.
You know what do you think,though it's, it's, it's.
How do we bring that into theconstruction industry?
Is is what I want to know wherepeople really feel.
You know what I'm good at, whatI do, and you wouldn't be
living in that you wanting to be, uh, a programmer or do some
coding, and it's like, okay,amazon's coming to town and
(24:31):
they're going to build a newtower.
Well, or, or employ 5 000people well, it's great, they're
going to employ 5 000 people.
But it's like, okay, amazon'scoming to town and they're going
to build a new tower.
Well, or, or employ 5,000people.
Well, it's great, they're goingto employ 5,000 people, but
it's going to take three yearsto build that tower, to put them
in, and it needs to be built.
So we can have all of thesegrants and whatnot, but we need
to do a better job managingpeople's expectations and reward
(24:52):
those for what they do, becausethat's maybe the best they can
do.
And you know, not everybody'sgoing to be want to take the
time to be an engineer and go toschool.
That's just not their acumen.
But boy are they creative whenit comes to working with a saw.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
But do you think human beings get cagey when
resources are constrained?
Yes, that's where we're at.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Yes, but how do you so get cagey?
Yeah, let's use rats in a cage.
What do they do?
They start fighting each other.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
I know, but that's where we're at right now.
We're in this place where, like, I agree with you and if we can
make this stuff work, it makessense, and I think, as you said
before we started the podcastabout leadership is that it is
incumbent on leaders to havesome altruism.
It can't just be about theyhave to do other things, and
(25:50):
that altruism, ultimately, if itstarts out to be selfless, it
will end up actually as abenefit.
Yes, and that's what I think ismissed.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
Yeah, is that people are looking for too quick of a
payoff on altruism yes, and Ithink we have to do a much
better job of managingexpectations.
Yeah, like no you, I don'tthink it's going to be that
you're going to be owning a homeat 24 years old and in
Vancouver anytime soon.
So if they have thatunderstanding.
(26:22):
But, boy, we have worked foryou for the next 20 years, so
you know what, if you do somesavings and put some aside, we
can get you there.
But we've got to work as a teamand we're here to help and you
can see, you know George overhere has been working for us for
30 years.
He loves what he does, you know, for him it's a passion.
He's proud of his work, hetakes pride in what he does.
(26:44):
He's not just showing up to dohis eight hours and go home.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
We're coming up, we would see um models of people
who that we would think, yeah, Iwant to be like that one day.
Do you think that that haschanged over time of what people
value now?
(27:08):
Like I think the youth looks atlike you or me, they go, go.
I don't know, I don't know if Iwant that, the, the, the, the
gap between everyone expectingat some point that they should
be able to get a Lamborghinievent door somehow.
It seems like it's the, the bar, we.
(27:31):
There's so much information outthere.
Let's just say, if anindividual is on TikTok, for
instance, okay, yeah, just basedon their age and their
demographic, which TikTok knows,it's going to send that, let's
say, 27-year-old male, over andover videos of.
I made $7,000 today just ondoing this Digital products
(27:59):
selling on whatever.
Okay, right, just get richquick stuff.
The reality is and I know thisis nuts is if you do actually
post three videos a day and youdo focus, you can make that
money.
But most people won't do that,right?
So it takes an intense kind ofperson and dedication for a year
(28:22):
to be sucking wind, mm-hmm.
But if you do that, if you dotwo, three videos a day, we're
talking 700 to 1,000 videos in ayear.
You'll get that.
So that's the weird part.
But people are being told thisstuff.
So it makes people feel thatthey are inadequate because they
(28:44):
know they won't do that.
They know it's possible.
And then they look at the30-year veteran at a
construction company who maybehas what they want, but they're
valuing different things.
They're not valuing that guy'sjob satisfaction.
They're like, hey, man, do youhave a cabin on the lake with
(29:07):
ATVs and a wakeboard boat or not?
Because that's what I want.
So I only want the baller inconstruction, which we see a lot
of those, by the way,absolutely Tons, tons of them.
If you want to be in LakeCountry and you want to get a
boat and you want a cabin, go inconstruction Because there's
lots of them.
But I think that those peopleneed to be out there more and
(29:31):
understand that there is a path.
You, those people, need to beout there more and understand
that there is a path.
You get really good atsomething that you can do and
you can have those things.
Absolutely, but I don't thinkpeople are seeing that, because
we're now in a time where so asI said, when you and I were
coming up, I think there weretimes where we would say in the
(29:51):
next five years, I think I canget here, in the next ten years,
I think I can get here they'rethinking where can I get in six
months?
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Correct, absolutely, it's like winning the lottery.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
The time compression has just gone like this of
expectation.
I need it now because we're ina now economy.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
We're in an instant gratification economy because of
what media is showing us, orUber?
Speaker 1 (30:10):
Eats, I can have food .
Show up here right now.
I want a burger.
I can come in here.
Yeah, nuts, they might stopthem, the Gestapo.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Well whether you're talking about an influencer or
somebody doing that on TikTok,or a developer.
Yeah.
They all have a plan, they workhard and they don't give up.
Exactly it's the same thing.
They don't plan to fail.
Where, instant gratification?
I don't know a developer that'sthinking instant gratification
(30:41):
because you can't.
You've got to buy that piece ofproperty, you're going to sit
on it.
You've got to wait for permitsand then you've got to get out
to get pricing.
And now, once you've got yourpricing, then maybe we have a
pandemic show up.
Oh, once you've got yourpricing, then maybe we have a
pandemic show up.
Then maybe we have duties andextra tariffs show up.
Yeah.
They didn't think about that.
But they're still not goingbackwards.
They're not throwing in thetowel.
(31:01):
They're saying I'm goingthrough with this and I think
that's a big piece thatindividuals.
You shared it.
They want to make the quickbuck.
Yeah.
Well, if you want to live inthe dream world of making a
quick buck, you keep doing that,but I don't need to support you
while you're trying to figurethat out.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
Yeah, that's, true I don't need to go.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
No, you don't need to have that apartment.
I mean, that's not myresponsibility, but if you want
to get out on a brass tacks andyou want to work hard and have
that opportunity, and I think weneed to do a better job of
making knowledge of what is outthere and what is available,
because the trades should not belacking people.
(31:42):
We have a lot of young peoplethat would go to work.
They just don't know about it.
So we have to either do abetter job of that early on in
life and instead of showinggrade 11 and grade 12 students,
hey, come into the trades.
We need to be starting that inearly kindergarten.
Let's call it grade two, gradethree you talked about
(32:03):
McDonald's.
Mcdonald's figured that outyears ago.
I mean when Frozen's on you gointo McDonald'sdonald's.
Mcdonald's figured that outyears ago.
I mean when frozen's on you gointo mcdonald's and I haven't
been into mcdonald's, so I'mgoing back a few years now you
would have these little toys andit would be based on shrek or
frozen.
So they were bringing those kidsback.
So here they're sending alreadysubliminal messages absolutely
yeah.
So I think the constructionworld needs to figure that out
(32:25):
and we're going to have to say Imean most of the many, many
immigrants that are coming toCanada.
They are coming and they'rerecognizing that the trades If I
work hard, the trades areactually going to help me afford
, get a place and they're theones that are applying
themselves.
I can tell you that fromindividuals working in our own
(32:46):
office that are working andthey're being paid very, very
well but they want to own aplace and they're working a
second job and they're alreadybeing played significantly
better than most of ourcompetitors.
We know that.
So we're not only doing that.
There's trades that are doingthat in the shoring and
(33:06):
excavation and they're learningto run special equipment.
And it comes back to peoplebelieving in themselves.
And when I have an individualcomes to me and says you know,
rick, trust can be a real bigissue on site and I'll say, well
, I don't know why.
You know they're working on amillion-dollar job and they're a
(33:28):
foreman and a forepersonrunning this job and it's like I
just don't feel the trust.
And it's well, you know that'sa million-dollar job, so it's
like $500,000 of that productI'm trusting you with.
And then there's $400,000 oflabor that I'm trusting you with
, you know, and there's 10% ofthat as profit in there.
(33:49):
So what part don't you thinkI'm trusting you with?
Because you have the job, youhave the opportunity to make
this job go really well bymotivating and directing people,
yeah, and there's most likelygoing to be a bonus to come with
that.
Yeah.
And I don't think they look past.
(34:11):
This is where I said they'reliving in the present, where we
will take the time to put a plantogether to look into the
future.
Now, not everybody's going tobe that person that's going to
put a plan to look into thefuture.
Some people, some individuals,are really good at just wanting
to work on the tools and do whatthey do, and that's okay too.
And they are figuring out thatif you want to have that place
(34:35):
on the lake, maybe they're goingto buy that place on the lake.
We're going to switch it aroundBuy that place on the lake
first while you're renting, nothave to go buy a home and then
hope to buy that place on thelake with the atf or atv and and
the wake door, yeah, so that'swhat I've been sharing with some
of our young guys go out andfind something, find it up north
(34:55):
.
Yeah, that's a good idea, andyou know what.
You've got a place to go to.
You don't need to cut grass,let somebody else do that.
Go to work, save your, and thenyou have a retreat.
And I learned that from someother larger trades.
This isn't Rick's idea.
This is just listening andpassing on that information, I
(35:16):
guess confidence, but whenyou're looking at these
Instagrammers that are, you knowyou talked about, let's call it
$7,000 with all of your postsin a day or in a week Great
money, absolutely, but it's notrealistic and so we've got to
get back to that reality, orsustainable, you don't?
Speaker 1 (35:36):
know what that's going to be in a number of like
what transferable skill do youhave after that?
Because it could die.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
Well, they're just hoping to make enough money so
they can live off the money inthe bank, like the number of
individuals that hope to retireby winning the lottery.
What are your chances ofwinning the lottery?
I've heard it's about 1 in 14million.
Okay, so every time it getsover $14 million, should you go
buy a ticket?
Yeah that's crazy I don't know,that's a crazy way to think, but
(36:06):
there's a huge percentage ofpopulation, greater than 30
percent, believe they are goingto retire by winning the lottery
.
It's just such a mess.
Yeah, you know.
So again, leadership it's whatwe hear on the news.
Uh, it's a lot of sillycomments.
We need to have strong leaders.
Um, we see it on.
Um, I mean, just in thepolitics alone, it confuses a
(36:27):
lot of young people.
And we are living in a greatcountry with some more natural
resources than most othercountries on the planet, and we
have young people that won'ttake the time to go vote.
That really is upsetting to me,concerning, but disappointing
as well.
Yeah.
(36:48):
So when that changes, if we canonly do one thing and change 1%,
or change 1% of something everyday, whether it be our own
well-being or helping somebodyelse by coaching them or
mentoring them, that's wherewe're going to get it.
It's going to take time, but weall have to do it collectively
and we have been doing it.
That's where we've got to getback to.
(37:09):
It's going to take a while and,yeah, a lot of young people I
mean we have again differentethnicities where they're
bringing money here to retire.
This is the land of goldenopportunity.
(37:30):
We have again differentethnicities where they're
bringing money here to retire.
This is the land of goldenopportunity.
And so the money is going inthe bank.
And I think, again, going backto the basics, nothing is for
free.
When somebody hands yousomething and says, here, take
this for free, that's not forfree?
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Yeah, nothing's free.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
You're going to be paying for it some way, some
form later on.
Speaker 1 (37:46):
Yeah, respect the dollar.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
You got it yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
That's cool.
Okay, rick, as always, I likechatting with you, it's always
good.
Yeah, whistler was last time, Ithink right.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
Whistler was last time absolutely.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
Yeah, it was good.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
Up at the Learning.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
Yeah, at the Mallard Lounge, At the Mallard Lounge.
That was good that was good.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
Instruction Leadership Forum so well, james,
you're doing a great job.
Thank you for being here.
For the industry, I meanSightMax, you're a voice and
people are paying attentionReally.
And we may be listening inlittle snippets here and there.
Yeah, but we try to pick outthe things that will promote the
(38:29):
industry.
Yeah.
And really get the young ones tosay, hey, this is good.
So thanks for doing this, it'sappreciated, and we need to
support you as well as yousupporting the industry, because
you take the time to reach outto us, yeah, and I think we need
to show up as well to help you.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
Thanks Rick, Likewise man.
Okay, Thank you Awesome.
All right, I am here with Rick Wagner of Maxwell
Floors.
President, how long have youbeen doing?
Speaker 2 (00:06):
this for Rick.
Oh my gosh, 1981.
I started as an installer 1981.
You want to go all the wayforward?
That's about 43 years.
Wow, yes, wow.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
You saw Expo.
You saw the whole thing.
Did not see Expo.
You didn't see it.
Where were you?
Speaker 2 (00:21):
I was away in Switzerland doing a flooring
apprenticeship for three yearsin Zurich, Switzerland.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Wow, yeah, from the Swiss, from the Swiss, no wonder
you're so good at, it have tobe organized.
We were just talking about,like on the past podcast, why
the Swiss and Germans are sogood at engineering.
It's just a culture thing,right.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
It's just a culture thing Very regimented,
regimented, yeah, veryregimented, regimented, yeah, a
bit dry, a bit dry, but when itcomes to being organized and
having a routine, they have aroutine and they also have
research and development thatallows you to try new things
within an organization, even inan apprenticeship.
We could come up with ideas andif we made it better, they
(00:59):
would shift right on the spot.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
And they have like eight weeks holiday mandated by
the government.
Oh, that's for sure.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Actually you'd have a 13-month wage, so you know you.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Didn't those things make a huge difference, right?
They do, absolutely, becausewe're not doing any of that here
in Canada.
No, what do you think it isthat we here's?
The strange observation is that, according to I don't know what
statistic this is, I don't knowwho came up with this number,
but apparently Canadians are 60%as productive as Americans.
(01:31):
Keep hearing this, right, andyet you would think that the
Swiss model or the French modelor the of having lots of
vacations that they would be theones, would be 60%.
But we don't even give, wedon't even do the fun part, and
(01:52):
we're still sucking wind here.
So what do you think?
Is this a cultural thing?
Where are we at with thingslike we're we?
I really wanted to chat withyou specifically and this isn't
necessarily for you to provideme an example of culture in your
company, etc.
But I think you're pretty goodat asking the basic litmus test
(02:13):
of construction in generalBritish Columbia, canada when
are we at in terms of morale,leadership, etc.
Where do you see the gaps andholes and what's the
opportunities Gaps?
Speaker 2 (02:26):
and holes.
Very yeah, we've beenwitnessing that ever since this
thing called the iPhone camealong.
The iPhone, like let's go backto it.
If you want to see kids I meanthose kids that I see that are
in a restaurant and we go outand they're coloring with
crayons.
They're going to have thecreativity mind.
You know, you've got thistechnology that's taking over
where kids have this technologyin front of them and they're
(02:47):
losing their creativity.
So how can we ask them to becritical thinkers later in life
if we are just taking therelaxed mode of not doing the
right thing?
And the right thing is it's gotto be difficult, and by
difficult I mean it's not easyto be a parent, but also we're
not, as leaders, we can't behiding either.
We need to get out there.
We need to.
(03:08):
You know we talked a littleearlier about different things.
We've got to open up the can ofworms.
We've got to make our teamsheard.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
What are the can of worms?
To double click on thatspecifically.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Can of worms.
Mental well-being, health.
I mean there's some individualsreally taking advantage of it
and it's a concern.
We know who they are within ourown company.
But I'm hearing this from tradecontractors across Canada being
, as a national advisory to theboard, just not totally
(03:40):
committed.
They're going to work nine tofive or the eight to four and
they're just doing their job.
They're not being proactive,they're not really too
interested in trying to make itbetter.
It's a job, it pays the billsand I'm not really going
anywhere, so I'm going to livein the moment and that comes
along with not saving.
Some of my concerns with withthat other can of worms are
(04:06):
technology on the job site.
They're wanting to have musicall the time and but they're
doing it through earbuds.
So now we have health andsafety concerns oh yeah, so we
have individuals that are veryself-centered.
They're not being part of thecommunity on site.
It's very individualistic.
Or before we would be learningall the time, somebody would
walk over and say, hey, there'sa better way to do this.
(04:27):
You know, why don't you holdthis hammer in your right hand
instead of your left?
There's an easier way to usethis tool.
Okay, we're not seeing thathappen now, and I'm whether it
be a mechanical trade, whetherit be a window, roofing,
excavation- so this is whatyou're hearing out there this is
what we're hearing is some ofthis is what we're seeing when I
walk on site.
I mean, we're fortunate enoughto do site visits.
(04:48):
We've got to do inspections,quality control, and you can ask
you know, why is that?
Have you been following theplans?
No, actually I left the workorder in my car, but this is how
I did it on my last project.
Oh, I see so there's a lot oflack of commitment to really
(05:10):
getting involved.
They're just there to do their,they're just there to show up.
Sometimes we feel it's just,they're just a body on site.
Okay.
And that's a very unfortunatething.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
So I've talked about this and tried to conceptualize
the reason for this.
From a macro level,construction is often people
having to execute on someoneelse's passion.
Just hear me out with this.
(05:42):
You have either a developer ora property owner or somebody who
has their dream on this project, right, okay, they're somewhat
insulated from natural how muchwork it is to actually see that
thing through but they have thisglistening plan that they've
made.
That's been this dream.
They go to sleep at night.
(06:02):
They're like, ah, I can't waituntil this project gets built
and they're all excited about.
It's all glitzy and glassy andbeautiful.
Now, that's that person'spassion.
As you keep going down thechain of production, all the way
down to the field workers toshow up and clock in their time
and do something perhaps dull,dirty or dangerous right, the
(06:23):
transfer of that person isexecuting the passion of this
person up here and they don'thave that same passion.
It hasn't transcended downthrough the line and there's a
number of factors of the reasonwhy that might not be the
passion of that person.
Obviously they're not going toand obviously they're not going
to.
(06:45):
We have got to a point wherethere is a housing crisis here,
specifically in British Columbia, where many people who are
working on jobs think that theywill never be able to even live
in the thing they're building.
(07:06):
Right, and I'm not talking thebutterfly here at $3,000 a
square foot.
I'm talking, you know, asix-story stick-built condo in
Abbotsford even.
Still, I don't even know how Iwould get a down payment.
I don't know.
I've gone through fourdifferent construction companies
over the past two years.
I don't know.
I've gone through fourdifferent construction companies
over the past two years.
(07:26):
I don't have a solid job.
So there becomes thisdiscontent there, from the
person with the passion down tothe person that has to execute
the job.
So do you think that?
What do you think about thatparadigm?
Speaker 2 (07:43):
It's a big paradigm.
I mean, you've got young peoplelooking at developers and we
don't necessarily need to singlethem out because developers
themselves.
They put a lot of energy andeffort and investment and time
and learning to make this profit, and profit's not a dirty word.
What's required.
It's necessary if we're going tocontinue.
(08:05):
We have an apprentice thatwants to start.
It's very difficult when youhave an industry that's looked
upon as the fallback.
Oh, I wasn't smart enough to goto university.
Yeah, it's interesting you saythat, so we have that in Europe.
I mean, we talked a little bitabout Europe and New Zealand.
The trades are respected andwe've talked about this in
(08:25):
another podcast.
It's the respect of the trades,but it's a belief in your own
system.
It's a belief in you that youknow what I can do this and that
develops the passion.
So you have to.
Really, the culture in thesedifferent project sites can give
you great quality, greatcontrol and build it up.
(08:47):
You're getting to havebarbecues on site, so teams are
getting to know each otherbetter.
We're going back to what wasreally working back in the day.
We're having food trucks thatare showing up now and one
company is paying for that and aweek later you're having a full
barbecue.
So we're bringing peopletogether.
(09:08):
They're not working inisolation.
We have to eliminate, in myopinion, we have to eliminate
this isolation.
It's becoming a real concern.
These kids are going home, andwhen I say kids, I'm talking
young people and young peoplecoming into the trades.
Nowadays, some of them haveworked through their skip the
dishes and been servers and allof that, and so they're getting
(09:28):
into construction a little lateron in life and it's 30, 35.
And they go oh wow, I can makesome good money and I still
maybe have the possibility ofowning a home.
Yeah, where back in the day itmaybe took 10 years of your
income or 10 years of incomeearning that you could afford a
home.
Now it's going to be 30 yearsAt least, at least.
(09:49):
But if we were going to look atsome nations as well, is it
necessary?
Why is it the government'sresponsibility to say that I
need to be able to own a house?
There are countries where 80%of the population rents.
They're having these eight10-week holidays a year.
Their car may be the statussymbol.
They're having these eight tenweek holidays a year.
Their car may be the statussymbol.
So they're living a very goodlife.
If everybody wants to own anapartment or a house, is that my
(10:17):
responsibility?
I think my responsibility insociety is to make sure that we
pay our taxes.
People are educated, we havehealth care for them, but when
it comes to housing, I don'tthink it's my Well and I talk
amongst other peers.
Is it really my responsibilityor our responsibility that
(10:39):
everybody has to own a house?
I don't think so.
I think to have a secure placewith a roof over their head.
They have a job, they can go towork and they're going to have
those vacations, they're lookedafter, they got medical and
dental and they can save for thefuture.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
That's in whatever capacity they want to.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Whatever capacity they want to.
But at the end, yeah, I meanthat's going to stir some people
and say you know that's notright.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
No, I get you because I think that.
Do you want a bubbly by the way?
Drink I'm good.
Okay, but this is theexpectation that we've set.
We have set an expectation.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
And it's uncomfortable, and it's
uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
But also the reason for the owning versus renting
thing, I think here anyway, isthe fact that rent is so
expensive.
Rent is crazy Comparative toComparative to those other
places, because if you're alocal in some of those European
countries, your rent is less.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Well, we also have to look at, you know and comparing
is a dangerous thing, becauseif we're looking at countries in
Europe, they're much smaller,so transportation is already in
place, so you may not need toown a vehicle to get there If
you want to say I need someaffordability of rent and you're
going to live in Chilliwack andyou're going to.
(12:01):
it's going to be $1,000 less foryou to live in Chilliwack than
it is to live in Kitsilanodowntown.
But you now are sitting in yourcar for two hours a day and
you're paying an extra $100 agas a week.
So now we've got $400 in fuelcosts, let alone the wear and
tear on your car, and you've gotfive days in the week that
you've just paid have another 10hours.
(12:23):
So that's 40 hours and you'reworth 20 bucks an hour.
Well, you have just offset.
Why didn't you stay living inkits?
Speaker 1 (12:30):
That's very true.
On the renting in kits you mean, versus owning On the renting
in kits versus.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
So people are moving outside of the city for
affordability, yeah, yet they'respending all this time becoming
tired, overworked.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Yeah, it's a gong show.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
So it.
Yet they're spending all thistime becoming tired overworked.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Yeah, it's a gong show, it's the ground to it.
The weird thing is, even if youhad that, $1,000 savings is
people don't need to getapproved to spend $100 a week on
gas.
They don't need to get approvedto spend two hours in their car
.
These are things that are theseother factors that we only seem
(13:10):
to value the property value.
That's the only thing, becausewhat we've been taught is and
that's because Vancouver hasgrown up on this over the past
20 years is that it's grown upon.
If I buy a house, it'll go upin value.
Well, with interest rates theway it is now, you're barely
paying down any principal andyou are mostly hopefully looking
(13:32):
for that lift versus rent.
Okay, but that lift is kind ofnot there now.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Well, I think there's two parts to this, james.
I think the first part ispeople were hoping to make a lot
of money.
I wouldn't call it investment.
We went past the investment.
They wanted to make the quickbuck, okay, and that would help
them then save some money to putit on a down payment.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Right, that makes sense, right.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
So what happens in an economy where we've got this
moving, the value of property isgoing up so quickly in an
apartment and then we have aneconomy turning.
So not understanding whatyou're investing in the number?
I'm very concerned right nowwith the number of residences
(14:19):
out there that are being builtthat are all the developers
going to survive?
I don't think so.
I mean, we're seeing developersright now in solvent going into
bankruptcy.
The young ones we, many moonsago, having a house with a white
picket fence, that was ourmodel, that went away a long
(14:40):
time ago and that was supposedto be.
You're gonna retire in thathouse, everything's fine.
So we have modeled for our kidsand modeled for others that
owning a home is the right thing, it's the be-all to end-all,
yeah, and it's not it's not wehave not.
We didn't find a work-lifebalance earlier on.
(15:02):
I think the young people todayhave a very different outlook in
what their lifestyle is, verydifferent than what mine looks
like.
Yeah, you know they have thework-life balance.
You know I'm going on holidaysnext week.
Sorry, I didn't give you enoughnotice and we see that and it's
happening all the time.
I don't really feel that.
(15:22):
Well, I know we're facing adeadline, but I'm not coming to
work tomorrow.
I get those phone calls andit's unfortunate.
So we have to one understand isthat mental well-being?
Is it mental health going on?
And then it comes all the wayback to if you want to have this
freestyle lifestyle, you can'thave it both ways.
(15:44):
You can't hope to make and owna home at a later date.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
And have consistency.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
And have consistency.
So there's routines in all ofwhat makes a developer tick, and
I think it's very hard on thedevelopers themselves when we
need to organize trades.
I mean the trades themselves,the ones that are working, are
very, very busy and we, the goodones, can always have more
(16:10):
people.
But we're also seeing that it'ssuch an expensive city.
We want to have lower costs.
Well, you can only go so low inyour costs without affecting
the performance of the building,and then we get into life cycle
and then we get intomaintenance, and it happens with
our transit system.
I mean, one of the big problemswe have is infrastructure.
Big problems we have isinfrastructure.
(16:30):
If we were to have built therapid transit out to Langley
years and years ago, we'd haveprobably easily another 50,000
homes.
That would make it moreaffordable, but we wait until
it's too late, in my opinion.
Yeah, infrastructure has to belooked at.
So we need to look at the wholeproblem.
(16:51):
There isn't just one answerhere.
You know transportation's there, we need health care and if
we're moving people into theseareas, then we need to have
schools with them.
We're going to have grocerystores, but if we don't have the
people to build it now we haveimmigration and then immigration
comes in and that's taking jobsaway.
So you can see and apartmentsyeah.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Yeah Well, so you've touched on a number of things I
think are are.
So you know, there's the termthe individual contributor, yes,
and that individual contributoris that person that is kind of
insular in their thinking.
They want to run their own show, they want to come in, they
want to do their thing.
If they're not feeling wellthat day, hey, it's my mental
(17:32):
health, I need to worry aboutthat, which is kind of true.
However, I always find thatthere seems to be a huge gap in
between how nasty and brutal thedollar is.
When I say the dollar, I don'tmean the Canadian dollar versus
(17:54):
US dollar.
Us dollar I mean the dollar.
To earn is a brutal mistress.
It is nasty, right, it is themost cutthroat thing to try and
go and get, and the businessowners that try and get that and
then have to pay those to dothat work.
There's an expectation that thebrutalness doesn't transfer.
(18:16):
It has to be insulated from anyof that brutality of the dollar
, and that's just not trueBecause the dollar is hard to
make.
So I think what we're findingis is we're.
We're finding that we havecreated and I don't know whether
or not it's the boomergeneration, with the millennials
(18:39):
who have been, you know, bubblewrapping the world for these,
for kids, and on top of that,they're in a consumption economy
where they're just staring attheir phone for five hours when
they get home and consuming andnot making anything.
They're just.
They're not even learning.
They might be learning, butthey might be learning.
The problem is that they're not.
(19:00):
It's not an interactivelearning process, it's a one.
It's like drinking from a firehose process, right, and the
velocity, I mean it's not goodfor serotonin levels.
There's a whole bunch of thingsthere.
So when we I did this podcast alive podcast like this in
Toronto at the Building Show,and I had these two advocates
(19:21):
for mental health andconstruction on and this, there
was this clip of us and it is.
It's got 3,000 comments on it.
It's had 200,000 views on it.
It's had 200,000 views on it.
It was quite radioactive andwhat made that happen was that
we were talking about what theexpectation is and you hit on it
(19:45):
earlier is that there's othercountries in the world who
respect people in trades and ifthe expectation right now is,
this is a fallback, this is whatyou do when you this is always
a plan B or C, it's not a plan A.
So the plan B or C paradigm iskind of a mess for people
because as soon as they get intothe job there's a self-esteem
(20:07):
issue right away.
Yes.
And then there's things likewell, maybe on only the bigger
job sites is flushing toilets.
There is, we have a I know thatthere's the United States, you
know MAGA thing that's going onand RFK is doing the MAHA thing.
I mean I said to Andrew Hansonfrom Site Partners I said how
(20:29):
about making constructionhealthy again For food?
Yes, we have a food epidemic inconstruction.
Andrew Hanson from SitePartners, I said how about
making construction healthyagain for food?
Yes, we have a food epidemic inconstruction.
The amount of.
I mean I'm sure the quickservice restaurants aren't going
to like me saying this, butwe're poisoning our crews with
all this crap food and it's notgreat for chemicals in the body.
It doesn't make them mind.
(20:49):
It's not optimal, that's forsure.
I mean it might not be asdangerous as a lot of people say
that this kind of food is, butI can tell you for sure it's not
the ultimate fuel to be puttingin the body to get the best
output.
So we've got a lot of work todo, I think, in the construction
industry.
Like, what do you think aboutall that stuff?
Speaker 2 (21:09):
Well, I think we've got to go back to community.
We've got to go back tocommunity, We've got to get out
of this mentality of what's init for me and start working.
I mean working in teams.
People work better, they'rehappier, they're more productive
.
To go back even to thatleadership model family as a
(21:30):
whole.
There's a lot of familybreakups.
And then there's when I sayfamily breakups, I'm not just
talking about divorce itself Ithink family within siblings
that one sibling goes into theconstruction world and another
one goes into health sciences,and it's like, oh, you're
smarter than me.
And it's like, no, you're notsmarter than me, you just have a
passion and you're followingyour passion.
Different path yeah, just acomplete different path and, I
(21:52):
think, moving ahead.
If we look at the ethnicitygroups here in Canada that are
coming together, I mean myparents were immigrants and
there would be many times wewould head out to a society
event and then we would gettogether with a different
country society event and party.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
So where did your parents come from?
Speaker 2 (22:14):
My parents were from Switzerland.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
From Switzerland, okay.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Yeah, emigrated.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Oh Wagner.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Wagner, that's right.
So that was a big part of it.
So we would get together inthese groups and if something
was going on and say, hey, youknow, work's a little slow, well
, I maybe have something for you, but these, the community, is
getting together every month.
For, for one thing, we don'treally see the community getting
together.
One of the one of the somethingthat we just saw, and it was
(22:43):
only a week well, because fournations cup, yeah, like that
brought our country together.
We're not just talking bringingour community together.
I mean, the Four Nations Cup toCanada, that was a survival for
the country winning that To theUS, it was just a sporting
event.
So we all have a differentperception of what we need, but
(23:08):
we do recognize that when we wonthat as a country, as a
community, we came together andboy were we proud.
We've got to get back tofiguring out how to do that, and
we can't do it as an individual, that's true.
So we can do it on site, we can.
Trades can get together.
Trades can have their tradeparty.
That's why we're starting tosee more and more of that, and I
(23:29):
have to think some of thegeneral contractors are
organizing that and saying hey,maxwell, it's your turn.
You know you haven't been onsite because this site's been
operating for two years, but ina month we're going to ask you
to have enough hamburgers for 80workers on site, absolutely.
I mean, is it an expense thatyou don't think of?
(23:49):
Yes, but when one gets tounderstand the other trade, or
just listen, and you know, shootthe information it's.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Well, it's a collective effort.
Yeah, I mean, that makes senseto me.
I think that the Brits do it.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
You know they do it going to the pub.
New Zealand does it throughtheir rugby.
I mean the All Blacks Boy.
Are they proud.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
You know what?
Speaker 2 (24:10):
boy are they proud.
You know what do you think,though it's, it's, it's.
How do we bring that into theconstruction industry?
Is is what I want to know wherepeople really feel.
You know what I'm good at, whatI do, and you wouldn't be
living in that you wanting to be, uh, a programmer or do some
coding, and it's like, okay,amazon's coming to town and
(24:31):
they're going to build a newtower.
Well, or, or employ 5 000people well, it's great, they're
going to employ 5 000 people.
But it's like, okay, amazon'scoming to town and they're going
to build a new tower.
Well, or, or employ 5,000people.
Well, it's great, they're goingto employ 5,000 people, but
it's going to take three yearsto build that tower, to put them
in, and it needs to be built.
So we can have all of thesegrants and whatnot, but we need
to do a better job managingpeople's expectations and reward
(24:52):
those for what they do, becausethat's maybe the best they can
do.
And you know, not everybody'sgoing to be want to take the
time to be an engineer and go toschool.
That's just not their acumen.
But boy are they creative whenit comes to working with a saw.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
But do you think human beings get cagey when
resources are constrained?
Yes, that's where we're at.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Yes, but how do you so get cagey?
Yeah, let's use rats in a cage.
What do they do?
They start fighting each other.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
I know, but that's where we're at right now.
We're in this place where, like, I agree with you and if we can
make this stuff work, it makessense, and I think, as you said
before we started the podcastabout leadership is that it is
incumbent on leaders to havesome altruism.
It can't just be about theyhave to do other things, and
(25:50):
that altruism, ultimately, if itstarts out to be selfless, it
will end up actually as abenefit.
Yes, and that's what I think ismissed.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
Yeah, is that people are looking for too quick of a
payoff on altruism yes, and Ithink we have to do a much
better job of managingexpectations.
Yeah, like no you, I don'tthink it's going to be that
you're going to be owning a homeat 24 years old and in
Vancouver anytime soon.
So if they have thatunderstanding.
(26:22):
But, boy, we have worked foryou for the next 20 years, so
you know what, if you do somesavings and put some aside, we
can get you there.
But we've got to work as a teamand we're here to help and you
can see, you know George overhere has been working for us for
30 years.
He loves what he does, you know, for him it's a passion.
He's proud of his work, hetakes pride in what he does.
(26:44):
He's not just showing up to dohis eight hours and go home.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
We're coming up, we would see um models of people
who that we would think, yeah, Iwant to be like that one day.
Do you think that that haschanged over time of what people
value now?
(27:08):
Like I think the youth looks atlike you or me, they go, go.
I don't know, I don't know if Iwant that, the, the, the, the
gap between everyone expectingat some point that they should
be able to get a Lamborghinievent door somehow.
It seems like it's the, the bar, we.
(27:31):
There's so much information outthere.
Let's just say, if anindividual is on TikTok, for
instance, okay, yeah, just basedon their age and their
demographic, which TikTok knows,it's going to send that, let's
say, 27-year-old male, over andover videos of.
I made $7,000 today just ondoing this Digital products
(27:59):
selling on whatever.
Okay, right, just get richquick stuff.
The reality is and I know thisis nuts is if you do actually
post three videos a day and youdo focus, you can make that
money.
But most people won't do that,right?
So it takes an intense kind ofperson and dedication for a year
(28:22):
to be sucking wind, mm-hmm.
But if you do that, if you dotwo, three videos a day, we're
talking 700 to 1,000 videos in ayear.
You'll get that.
So that's the weird part.
But people are being told thisstuff.
So it makes people feel thatthey are inadequate because they
(28:44):
know they won't do that.
They know it's possible.
And then they look at the30-year veteran at a
construction company who maybehas what they want, but they're
valuing different things.
They're not valuing that guy'sjob satisfaction.
They're like, hey, man, do youhave a cabin on the lake with
(29:07):
ATVs and a wakeboard boat or not?
Because that's what I want.
So I only want the baller inconstruction, which we see a lot
of those, by the way,absolutely Tons, tons of them.
If you want to be in LakeCountry and you want to get a
boat and you want a cabin, go inconstruction Because there's
lots of them.
But I think that those peopleneed to be out there more and
(29:31):
understand that there is a path.
You, those people, need to beout there more and understand
that there is a path.
You get really good atsomething that you can do and
you can have those things.
Absolutely, but I don't thinkpeople are seeing that, because
we're now in a time where so asI said, when you and I were
coming up, I think there weretimes where we would say in the
(29:51):
next five years, I think I canget here, in the next ten years,
I think I can get here they'rethinking where can I get in six
months?
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Correct, absolutely, it's like winning the lottery.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
The time compression has just gone like this of
expectation.
I need it now because we're ina now economy.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
We're in an instant gratification economy because of
what media is showing us, orUber?
Speaker 1 (30:10):
Eats, I can have food .
Show up here right now.
I want a burger.
I can come in here.
Yeah, nuts, they might stopthem, the Gestapo.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Well whether you're talking about an influencer or
somebody doing that on TikTok,or a developer.
Yeah.
They all have a plan, they workhard and they don't give up.
Exactly it's the same thing.
They don't plan to fail.
Where, instant gratification?
I don't know a developer that'sthinking instant gratification
(30:41):
because you can't.
You've got to buy that piece ofproperty, you're going to sit
on it.
You've got to wait for permitsand then you've got to get out
to get pricing.
And now, once you've got yourpricing, then maybe we have a
pandemic show up.
Oh, once you've got yourpricing, then maybe we have a
pandemic show up.
Then maybe we have duties andextra tariffs show up.
Yeah.
They didn't think about that.
But they're still not goingbackwards.
They're not throwing in thetowel.
(31:01):
They're saying I'm goingthrough with this and I think
that's a big piece thatindividuals.
You shared it.
They want to make the quickbuck.
Yeah.
Well, if you want to live inthe dream world of making a
quick buck, you keep doing that,but I don't need to support you
while you're trying to figurethat out.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
Yeah, that's, true I don't need to go.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
No, you don't need to have that apartment.
I mean, that's not myresponsibility, but if you want
to get out on a brass tacks andyou want to work hard and have
that opportunity, and I think weneed to do a better job of
making knowledge of what is outthere and what is available,
because the trades should not belacking people.
(31:42):
We have a lot of young peoplethat would go to work.
They just don't know about it.
So we have to either do abetter job of that early on in
life and instead of showinggrade 11 and grade 12 students,
hey, come into the trades.
We need to be starting that inearly kindergarten.
Let's call it grade two, gradethree you talked about
(32:03):
McDonald's.
Mcdonald's figured that outyears ago.
I mean when Frozen's on you gointo McDonald'sdonald's.
Mcdonald's figured that outyears ago.
I mean when frozen's on you gointo mcdonald's and I haven't
been into mcdonald's, so I'mgoing back a few years now you
would have these little toys andit would be based on shrek or
frozen.
So they were bringing those kidsback.
So here they're sending alreadysubliminal messages absolutely
yeah.
So I think the constructionworld needs to figure that out
(32:25):
and we're going to have to say Imean most of the many, many
immigrants that are coming toCanada.
They are coming and they'rerecognizing that the trades If I
work hard, the trades areactually going to help me afford
, get a place and they're theones that are applying
themselves.
I can tell you that fromindividuals working in our own
(32:46):
office that are working andthey're being paid very, very
well but they want to own aplace and they're working a
second job and they're alreadybeing played significantly
better than most of ourcompetitors.
We know that.
So we're not only doing that.
There's trades that are doingthat in the shoring and
(33:06):
excavation and they're learningto run special equipment.
And it comes back to peoplebelieving in themselves.
And when I have an individualcomes to me and says you know,
rick, trust can be a real bigissue on site and I'll say, well
, I don't know why.
You know they're working on amillion-dollar job and they're a
(33:28):
foreman and a forepersonrunning this job and it's like I
just don't feel the trust.
And it's well, you know that'sa million-dollar job, so it's
like $500,000 of that productI'm trusting you with.
And then there's $400,000 oflabor that I'm trusting you with
, you know, and there's 10% ofthat as profit in there.
(33:49):
So what part don't you thinkI'm trusting you with?
Because you have the job, youhave the opportunity to make
this job go really well bymotivating and directing people,
yeah, and there's most likelygoing to be a bonus to come with
that.
Yeah.
And I don't think they look past.
(34:11):
This is where I said they'reliving in the present, where we
will take the time to put a plantogether to look into the
future.
Now, not everybody's going tobe that person that's going to
put a plan to look into thefuture.
Some people, some individuals,are really good at just wanting
to work on the tools and do whatthey do, and that's okay too.
And they are figuring out thatif you want to have that place
(34:35):
on the lake, maybe they're goingto buy that place on the lake.
We're going to switch it aroundBuy that place on the lake
first while you're renting, nothave to go buy a home and then
hope to buy that place on thelake with the atf or atv and and
the wake door, yeah, so that'swhat I've been sharing with some
of our young guys go out andfind something, find it up north
(34:55):
.
Yeah, that's a good idea, andyou know what.
You've got a place to go to.
You don't need to cut grass,let somebody else do that.
Go to work, save your, and thenyou have a retreat.
And I learned that from someother larger trades.
This isn't Rick's idea.
This is just listening andpassing on that information, I
(35:16):
guess confidence, but whenyou're looking at these
Instagrammers that are, you knowyou talked about, let's call it
$7,000 with all of your postsin a day or in a week Great
money, absolutely, but it's notrealistic and so we've got to
get back to that reality, orsustainable, you don't?
Speaker 1 (35:36):
know what that's going to be in a number of like
what transferable skill do youhave after that?
Because it could die.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
Well, they're just hoping to make enough money so
they can live off the money inthe bank, like the number of
individuals that hope to retireby winning the lottery.
What are your chances ofwinning the lottery?
I've heard it's about 1 in 14million.
Okay, so every time it getsover $14 million, should you go
buy a ticket?
Yeah that's crazy I don't know,that's a crazy way to think, but
(36:06):
there's a huge percentage ofpopulation, greater than 30
percent, believe they are goingto retire by winning the lottery
.
It's just such a mess.
Yeah, you know.
So again, leadership it's whatwe hear on the news.
Uh, it's a lot of sillycomments.
We need to have strong leaders.
Um, we see it on.
Um, I mean, just in thepolitics alone, it confuses a
(36:27):
lot of young people.
And we are living in a greatcountry with some more natural
resources than most othercountries on the planet, and we
have young people that won'ttake the time to go vote.
That really is upsetting to me,concerning, but disappointing
as well.
Yeah.
(36:48):
So when that changes, if we canonly do one thing and change 1%,
or change 1% of something everyday, whether it be our own
well-being or helping somebodyelse by coaching them or
mentoring them, that's wherewe're going to get it.
It's going to take time, but weall have to do it collectively
and we have been doing it.
That's where we've got to getback to.
(37:09):
It's going to take a while and,yeah, a lot of young people I
mean we have again differentethnicities where they're
bringing money here to retire.
This is the land of goldenopportunity.
(37:30):
We have again differentethnicities where they're
bringing money here to retire.
This is the land of goldenopportunity.
And so the money is going inthe bank.
And I think, again, going backto the basics, nothing is for
free.
When somebody hands yousomething and says, here, take
this for free, that's not forfree?
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Yeah, nothing's free.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
You're going to be paying for it some way, some
form later on.
Speaker 1 (37:46):
Yeah, respect the dollar.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
You got it yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
That's cool.
Okay, rick, as always, I likechatting with you, it's always
good.
Yeah, whistler was last time, Ithink right.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
Whistler was last time absolutely.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
Yeah, it was good.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
Up at the Learning.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
Yeah, at the Mallard Lounge, At the Mallard Lounge.
That was good that was good.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
Instruction Leadership Forum so well, james,
you're doing a great job.
Thank you for being here.
For the industry, I meanSightMax, you're a voice and
people are paying attentionReally.
And we may be listening inlittle snippets here and there.
Yeah, but we try to pick outthe things that will promote the
(38:29):
industry.
Yeah.
And really get the young ones tosay, hey, this is good.
So thanks for doing this, it'sappreciated, and we need to
support you as well as yousupporting the industry, because
you take the time to reach outto us, yeah, and I think we need
to show up as well to help you.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
Thanks Rick, Likewise man.
Okay, Thank you Awesome.
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