Rescuing Architecture: Saving Homes From Demolition with Glyn Lewis, Founder at Renewal Development

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Glenn, how are you doing today?

Speaker 2 (00:02):
Hey James.
Yeah, I'm doing really great.
Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 (00:04):
No, you're very, very welcome, pretty interested in
your topic here.
Do you think we're at the endof the shh crappy weather here
in Vancouver?

Speaker 2 (00:14):
Well, it's funny, I was just in North Carolina for
the last few days, so what wasit like?
There it was beautiful.

Speaker 1 (00:18):
Is it?
Yeah, north Carolina.
What were you doing there?
I was actually speaking at aconference of structural moving
companies from around the worldStructural moving companies.

Speaker 2 (00:32):
Okay, take me through that.

Speaker 1 (00:33):
What does that mean?
I know it's what you do, butwhat is that category comprised
of?

Speaker 2 (00:35):
Yeah, well, it's a pretty interesting group.
So there's this thing calledthe International Association of
Structural Movers, okay, andessentially what it is is all of
these companies that lift andoften move homes, right Homes
and buildings that's why it'scalled the structural movers and

(00:56):
basically what this industry isis folks who move industrial
things like transformers andreally submarines and really big
stuff.
And then there are folks whojust lift homes and buildings.
And then there are folks wholift homes and buildings but
also move homes and buildings,and so there's kind of three
categories industrial, lift,lift and move.

(01:17):
And there's probably about 300companies that are part of this
association, mostly here inNorth America, there's a pretty
good number of them down in NewZealand and Australia and
there's some in Europe and someother places, and they've got an
association and they gettogether once a year and they
talk about innovation in theindustry, they talk about trends

(01:38):
in the industry, they talkabout health and safety in the
industry, and so I've beeninvited twice now to go down and
speak at their conference aboutall of the innovative things
that we're doing here inVancouver.

Speaker 1 (01:48):
Cool.
Wow, moving stuff.
Yeah, I mean, I see these.
I think sometimes we look at,you know, on the highway, and
you see we see a lot of likemobile homes that were moved.
We see a lot of like mobilehomes that were moved, sometimes

(02:10):
anything with the wide loadbumper on the back.
But, yeah, it's a veryinteresting thing that you know,
especially in Vancouver, we'vegot some interesting incentives
to be able to do those things,and also materials as well.
So, yeah, there's lots to talkabout here.
Yeah, so I look forward totalking to you about renewal
development.
It's going to be exciting.
Happy to share, jay.

(02:30):
All right, welcome to the Site.
Visit Podcast Leadership andperspective from construction
With your host, james.

Speaker 2 (02:44):
Falkner.

Speaker 1 (02:50):
Business as usual, as it has been for so long now.
Now that it goes back to whatwe were talking about before and
hitting the reset button, youknow you read all the books, you
read the emails, you readScaling Up, you read Good to
Great.
You know I could go on.
We've got to a place where wefound the secret serum.

Speaker 2 (02:59):
We found the secret potion.
We can get the workers in.
We know where to get them.
Once I was on a job it took awhile, actually, we had a
semester concrete and I ordereda Korean-Finnish patio out front
of the site show.
I was down at Dallas and a guyjust hit me up on LinkedIn out
of the blue and said he wasdriving from Oklahoma to Dallas
to meet with me because he heardthe Favourite Connect platform

(03:22):
on your guys' podcast Home.
It crush it and love it, and wecelebrate these values every
single day.

Speaker 1 (03:34):
Let's get down to it, okay, glenn.
So let's just.
How did you get into this?
I mean, what were you doingbefore this?
What was the inspiration ingetting involved in this level
into?

Speaker 2 (03:48):
moving homes, moving materials.
What was the impetus of thiswhole thing?
Well, I kind of took a bit of acircuitous journey to get here.
Everyone does I know, and it isvery unconventional.
So a little bit of backgroundabout myself.
I went to Simon FraserUniversity and when I got to SFU
I signed up as a chemistrymajor.
Okay.

(04:08):
And so I did that.
For a few years I was inchemistry, biology, physics,
calculus and all that kind ofstuff like hardcore sciences,
and about halfway through mydegree I watched the Al Gore
documentary Inconvenient Truth.
Oh yeah, I remember that oneScared everyone, scared
everybody and everybody's likeokay, that's something to really
pay attention to and toconsider, at least at the very

(04:29):
least.
And I remember when I watchedInconvenient Truth, it was kind
of a huge awakening for me aboutthe natural resources that
sustain us and being responsiblestewards of the land.
And so I kind of shifted my.
I decided to shift my chemistrydegree to environmental
chemistry.
So I wanted to start studyingatmospherics and groundwater

(04:49):
contamination and I thought youknow, if I'm going to have all
this chemistry background, Imight as well try to use it for
some good, not just kind ofcoming up with more chemicals
that are going to fill ouroceans with plastics or whatever
else.
Yeah, and so I shifted toenvironmental chemistry.
I kind of I didn't enjoy it,but you know there's only so
much you can do as a researcher,especially when you're trying
to understand a problem likethat.

(05:10):
And don't get me wrong, there'sa lot of great research in
science, going intophotovoltaics and different
types of energy and renewableenergy and the important work.
But I just didn't think thatwas going to be my journey.
So I kind of got into a littlebit of like the political space
when I was at SFU, ran forstudent government, got elected,
did that whole thing, and itwas such an interesting eye

(05:31):
opener in terms of a whole otherworld that I really didn't know
much about, and so that wasreally interesting.
And then I shifted my degreeone more time.
I finished my my major saysenvironmental chemistry on my
degree but I found this greatprogram called Sustainable
Community Development and it's atwo-year program.

(05:52):
So I did that within my degreeand I did my undergrad thesis
with this guy named Dr MarkRoseland.
A wonderful professor wrotethis book called Towards
Sustainable Communities, andthat was really where I started
to hone my skills andunderstanding about what does
sustainable development mean,both from an economic
perspective, from an urbanplanning perspective, from a

(06:13):
construction perspective, from asocial perspective, like all of
these things integrated.
It was incredible.
It was a great, great program.
I finished that.
I ended up working in politicsfor a few years.
I worked in the United States.
I came back and worked inCanada, kind of being like this
agent for change, and then Icame back to Canada.
After I worked in the UnitedStates, I actually worked for

(06:34):
President Obama's 2007-2008campaign, came back to Canada,
got involved in the nonprofitsector.
What was that like being downthere.
Yeah, incredible, yeah, that wasone of the best years of my
life for sure.
You know, you're at that agetoo and you're kind of young and
idealistic and you have a bitmore freedom to do a lot of
things like that.
And just meeting so many peopleand being part of something

(06:56):
like that, that really felt likea rocket ship.
You know, because he I don'tknow for those who remember like
he wasn't supposed to win thatthing right, it was hillary
clinton.
She was the establishedcandidate, she had all the money
, she had all the backing ofeverybody and it was so.
It was really a david versusgoliath kind of a campaign, but
I threw myself at it justbecause I I really believed in
what he had to say and yeah, ordavid versus oprah, but you know

(07:21):
what?
it's all.
Oprah was on our side.

Speaker 1 (07:24):
That's what I'm saying.
Oh, yeah, yeah, it was noGoliath.
Yeah, so Goliath versus Oprah,but yeah, I remember that time.
It was a crazy moment ofpossibility and of hope for a

(07:45):
nation, feeling I thought thatcampaign, that Obama campaign,
was.
Hopefully they can feel thatagain.

Speaker 2 (07:52):
Yeah, hope is one of those great things to feel,
isn't it?

Speaker 1 (07:55):
Yeah, it is.

Speaker 2 (07:56):
When you feel optimistic, when you feel
hopeful, there's such a positiveenergy around it and it's
contagious.
When you're sharing that vision, there's something positive
message talking about the betterangels in us all.
As Abraham Lincoln said, whenpolitics gets so negative and
divisive, I think it reallybrings down a lot of things.
It brings down our mental state.
It brings down our sense ofsocial cohesion.

Speaker 1 (08:18):
Totally does, and the sense of unity.

Speaker 2 (08:19):
And ultimately, we're all on the same planet, sharing
the same journey.
At the end of the day, yeah,totally Okay.

Speaker 1 (08:25):
so you came back after that, and then I got
involved in the nonprofit sector.

Speaker 2 (08:30):
I worked in education for a while and 2011, 2012, I
started a tech company withanother guy named Steve Anderson
.
What?
Did that do.
It built software for socialmovements and political
campaigns and political parties.
So, coming back to the UnitedStates, especially around that
time there was so much talkabout tech and there was so much

(08:52):
talk about the social web andhow it could be used to enable
things and empower people.
In retrospect now, looking back20 years later, it feels very
idealistic and you can see howsome of those tools and
platforms have been manipulatedby so many different actors and
stuff.
But anyways, at that time wewere like, right, this is the
most empowering thing.
Let's get the social web outthere, let's network people,

(09:14):
let's mobilize people and getthem to take action to have
their democratic voices heard.
And so we started building somesoftware and some tools around
that, and the company's calledNew Mode.
It's still around.
It took off more than even Ithought it was going to, and so
I did that for a while and thenI ended up selling my shares,

(09:35):
and Seamus Reid and SteveAnderson led it, and it's been
doing great work ever since.
Seamus, seamus Reid, I know him,you know Seamus.

Speaker 1 (09:42):
I think so yeah.

Speaker 2 (09:44):
Really nice guy, really funny too and anyways.
And so they kind of let it offand it's done great work and I'm
super impressed by everythingthat that company's accomplished
and how many people it'sreached.
And then about four or fiveyears ago, james, where this all
kind of came.
So again, chemistry background,political background, like what

(10:12):
am I doing in construction?
right, I get asked that prettyoften and um, so about five
years ago, my sister, mandalenalewis, and her partner they were
living in a house in victoriain souk actually, yeah, oh sorry
, in a squamald, okay, and theyhad this about 1915, 1920 home
and charming, you know, like thenice big bay windows, this
beautiful little staircase goingupstairs.
They were renters and adeveloper bought the whole city

(10:33):
block.
Okay, all right To do a landassembly, yep.
And I remember going andvisiting my sister and her
partner, you know, atChristmases and Thanksgiving and
the dogs and they were takingsuch good care of the home and
they were painting it and fixingit and they just poured so much
life into this thing.
And it really, really remindsme of the Pixar movie Up.

(10:53):
Yeah, because if you followthat narrative and how that
story started, it's this youngcouple.
They find this home.
It needed some love, they movedinto it and they started to
build their life in this home,right, and they took care of and
they breathed life into thishome and it was so similar to
what my sister and her partner,dave, went through in that home

(11:14):
as well.
And so when the developer boughtthe block and they were
informed that this home wasgoing to be torn down, they were
really upset and you know,because my sister know they
cared for this home.
They took care of this home andalso it's kind of a bit of an
environmentalist, like she was.
Like this is wasteful, this isridiculous.
Like this is a character home.

(11:34):
It looks great, it's been sowell maintained.
And so they started negotiatingwith the developer to take the
home just like the Pixar movieUp up except a bit of a sadder
story in the pixar movie.
And I can tell you it wasn't aneasy negotiation.
Right, developer was really Ican't, I can't say they were

(11:54):
very supportive or cooperativeat first.
And then my sister, being a bitof a savvy person that she is,
she went and talked to the mayorof esquimalt and she says look,
there's this 1915 home, we'veloved it, we've taken care of it
and the developer just wants totear it down and we're trying
to save it.
So she led this campaign, ifyou will, to save her house and

(12:16):
what she wanted to do.
She wanted to move it up tothis property that her and her
partner were looking to purchaseup near souk.
Okay, and they went, reachedout to one of the moving
companies on the island andeventually they were able to
pull the deal together and theyput the house on a truck and
they moved it up to souk andthen they repurposed it and
they've been living in it eversince.
So how big is this house?

Speaker 1 (12:39):
like what's the?
1200 square feet okay, so it'ssmall 12 to 1300 square to 1,300
square feet yeah, like thefootprint.
Forget about the height, butjust the footprint.
Obviously, some stuff is goingto work and some stuff is just
too broad and you'd have todissemble it.

Speaker 2 (12:56):
Well, the measurements on that home I
don't have it off the top of myhead, but let's say it was
around 28 to 30 feet wide.
So at 28 to 30 feet wide youcan get through a good number of
streets that's like a boat, adecent sized boat in length yeah
like a bayliner pleasurecruiser, 30 feet yeah, okay,

(13:16):
yeah, and width, though inlength it might have been a bit
longer for sure, yeah, yeah, butthe length is easier with a.
Yeah.
So she picked it up, she movedit up to this property that she
purchased near Souk James.
When she did this, this wasabout five years ago I was like
this is incredible, like this isan incredible solution.

(13:37):
Like you know, the developershould be happy because this
1910 character home isn't goingto landfill.
The city of Esquimalt was happybecause they they didn't want
to see this home torn down.
The neighborhood didn't want tosee this torn, this home torn
down.
But all of this development hasjust been pushing and pushing
and pushing for these landassemblies to happen.
And I get it.
We need housing and we cantouch, touch on this, maybe a

(13:58):
little bit later.
Um, but everybody was happy atthe end of the day that that she
saved the home and she washappy and her partner were happy
.
But it fired something up in meand this is one of those true
aha moments in life of justlooking at that and being like
that makes so much sense.
The city's happy, thedeveloper's happy, she's happy.
We prevented a good home fromgoing to landfill.

(14:19):
She's got a house now up inSooke.
This is such a winwin-win-win.
And then I started asking whydon't we like how much of this
happens like how many homes getrescued, how many homes get
repurposed and what are theeconomics behind this?
is it cost effective?
And the more I started justinvestigating and asking those
questions and trying to findanswers to those questions, the

(14:40):
more it seemed to me there's aviable business model here to
rescue good homes slated fordemolition, move them and
repurpose them in non-urbancommunities.
And that was really truly thegenesis of renewal development.

Speaker 1 (14:52):
Cool.
That sounds awesome.
I like the word rescue.

Speaker 2 (14:57):
Yeah, because it feels like you're doing
something hard and somethingthat bad is about to happen and
something that bad is about tohappen.

Speaker 1 (15:06):
Yeah, what was the?
I always have this archetype ofoften people who have rescue
dogs do CrossFit as well,because it's like overachievers.
So what was that joke?
How do you know if somebodydoes CrossFit?
Because they'll tell you Right,happy to share?
Yeah, exactly, but yeah, thatwould be a triple does CrossFit?
Because they'll tell you Right,happy to share.
Yeah, exactly, but yeah, thatwould be a triple.

(15:27):
Just imagine the rescue dog inthe rescue home and CrossFit
class.

Speaker 2 (15:30):
They actually had a bunch of dogs too.
Yeah, checks out.

Speaker 1 (15:34):
So, with Renewal Development right now, what is
the actual service?
So I know, like what do youcharge for?
How do you make revenue?
Yeah, what do you charge for?

Speaker 2 (15:42):
How do you make revenue?
Yeah, so it's kind of aninteresting business model.
In fact, when I was just downthere in North Carolina speaking
at this conference and I metprobably about 40 to 50 other
companies, mostly in the US butalso here in Canada and I love
going to those conferencesbecause you start to really
understand that the journey thatyou're on someone else has been
on before.
A lot of the questions you'reasking, a lot of the things that

(16:02):
you're trying to solve.
Someone somewhere has triedthis and just talking to them
and working that out with them alittle bit and understanding
what they've gone through.
So we're unique.
There's very few companies inNorth America that are
structured the way that we'restructured.
We essentially have threedifferent components, divisions
of the company.

(16:25):
The first division is I act as asustainable demolition service
provider to builders and todevelopers, and so if you've got
a land assembly and we've donea few now if you've got a land
assembly let's say it's 10 homesand you need to contract a
demolition service provider, youopen up the yellow pages or go
on Google.
You can find a bunch ofcompanies that will do that for
you the abatement, thedemolition, the tree clearing,
all that kind of stuff.

(16:45):
Now the developer all they careabout is that this is going to
be done roughly, on a budgetthat they had projected, on the
schedule that they had projected, and those are really the only
two things that they care about.
And then the site's clear bythe time that they need to clear
.
By how the homes leave, theydon't really care.
I'd say 99% of the developersthat I talk to it's mostly about

(17:07):
what's the cost, can you do iton time?
Because all they care about andthat's very understandable is
that they bought the land theywant their dream built they want
to build something higherdensity.
And so I come along and I say,listen, I can do this.
I'm going to quote you, likeI'm a demolition company, cost,
competitive on the cost.
And I say, listen, I can dothis, I'm going to quote you
like I'm a demolition company,cost, competitive on the cost,
and I will guarantee you that Iwill provide you a clear lot by

(17:30):
the time that you need a clearlot by how I get rid of these
homes.
Whether they leave in a bin allcrunched up, or if they leave
on the back of a semi-trailerbecause they're going down the
road, the developer doesn'treally care.
Now the advantage of our servicewhen I go and talk to them,
when I go into their boardroomsin downtown Vancouver or
wherever it is is there, is thissustainability to what we're

(17:52):
trying to do.
And of the 10 homes, let's say,maybe two of them are really
nice homes and are goodcandidates to be moved.
So I'll tell them and I can'tguarantee that but I'll say
listen, I'll make sure you haveall 10 lots clear by the time
that you need them cleared by.
But I found two really nicehomes within your assembly.
I'm going to try to move thosetwo homes to a non-urban

(18:13):
community as affordable housingand so far we've been working
with a lot of First Nationcommunities up and down the
coast of British Columbia.
So the benefit to the developeris they achieve their objective
.
But there's also this addedbonus from a community
perspective, from a local,municipal perspective, from a
marketing perspective, thatsomething good happened with the
good homes.
So that's our first division isa sustainable demolition

(18:37):
service.

Speaker 1 (18:37):
So you're kind of like you're a sub, you're almost
like a GC operating sub of thatparticular initiative.

Speaker 2 (18:45):
Yeah, In fact we've actually built in the internal
capacity to do abatement, to dothe demolition, to do all of
that stuff.
The only thing I don't do istree clearing.

Speaker 1 (18:53):
Right, but you coordinate.

Speaker 2 (18:54):
I coordinate and we do it.
Okay, yeah, except for thetrees.
But the abatement and thedemolition we take care of.
So that's the first division,just the liability of getting
something up 40, 50 feet up inthe air.
So the second division andthere's a reason why I learned
that I needed to do that and thereason why I learned that I

(19:16):
needed to become a demolitionservice provider is that's my
pathway to finding homes, that'smy pathway to securing homes,
homes, that's my pathway tosecuring homes, homes that I
want to ultimately move andrepurpose somewhere else.
And I also learned throughexperience, james, that it's not
a great model just to take thehomes that I'm interested in.
So you've got a 10-home landassembly and I say there's two

(19:38):
good homes that I want to move.
What about the other eight?
And what about the basement andthe garage on those two lots
that I do want to take?
And so, from you, from adeveloper's perspective, then
you're dealing with a democompany and then you're dealing
with a moving company.
Right, well, you've got twodifferent sets of contracts, two
different sets of schedules,coordination.
It's not efficient.

(19:59):
And I learned that reallyquickly after we did it a couple
of times and I was like no, no,no, the developer doesn't want
a headache, they want this to beeasy and simple as possible.
I need to take all of thisin-house and coordinate all of
these pieces the abatement, thepermitting, the tree removal,
all of that stuff.

Speaker 1 (20:14):
So how much more of a headache is it for you to move
a home than knock it down andtake the pieces?

Speaker 2 (20:22):
Well, the good thing, that's all on my side, so the
developer doesn't even see anyof that stuff Fair enough.
Any of the work that needs tobe done, or the permits and all
that kind of stuff.

Speaker 1 (20:30):
So to them, they would not know if they just went
on holiday or left the planetfor three months.
They wouldn't know whether ornot a house was moved or demoed.

Speaker 2 (20:42):
There's no material difference to them whether or
not I demo it or I move it.

Speaker 1 (20:45):
Now I tell them no brain damage with the city.
Does that change for them?

Speaker 2 (20:48):
no, because I deal with that.
I deal with the permits, themove route permits and all that
kind of stuff I see just like asub would get an electrical
permit.
Yeah, okay, yeah okay, um, so I, but I do tell them that we're
planning on doing this.
As soon.
Soon as I start knowing thatI'm going to move out, that's
good news.
Yeah, I'm going to tell them,like listen, let's put a sign up
on the fence and maybe let'sbring the mayor out.

Speaker 1 (21:06):
Take a picture of it, put it on the plaque on the new
building.
This home used to be here.
There you go, gotcha.
Yeah, little story.

Speaker 2 (21:16):
So okay, our homes, and that's how we provide a
clean, efficient service tothese demolition um, so to these
developers and to these so yourrevenue is the margin or a lot
of stuff I make a little bit ofmargin, like the demolition
industry is a pretty tightmargin industry, so I'm I make a
little bit of margin there, butI'm not really doing that
because I want to be ademolition contractor like I
didn't start this company to bea demo contractor.

(21:36):
I started this company to saveand and repurpose as many good
as possible, just like my sisterdid.

Speaker 1 (21:41):
Okay, but the home itself that you, rather than
demoing, let's say you move thehome.
There's X amount of costs tolift the home up, get it on the
jacks, get the thing moving ontoa truck, transporting it, then
putting it on, getting it readyon a new pad I would think
constructing that and thenputting that down.

(22:01):
Obviously, that's a significantamount of cost.
To do all of that Do you sellthe home on the other side?
That's right.

Speaker 2 (22:07):
Okay, gotcha, so the developer pays me to clear their
lots just like a demo company,right.
And then once I find those twogood homes, I will put them on
my website and I'll say I'vecreated a marketplace, gotcha,
just like a lot of the othermovers have that do this around
the world.
And then someone who wants ahome in Alert Bay or Port McNeil

(22:34):
or Sunshine Coast or whereverit might be, they come to my
website and they say, hey,that's a nice home.
Then I have a different clientthere.
So that's the second service isthe move service.
So now we lift it, we put it onsteel beams, we take it off the
property, we do all of the, theum, the permits to actually
move it and we find the routeand we ensure that it's going to
fit to where it needs to go andall that kind of stuff.
So there's some logistical,there's a fair amount of
logistical coordination to putthese two pieces together.

(22:56):
So that's the second service isthe lift and the move.
And then the third service isthat, once the home gets to that
final destination.
So I'll just give you an examplewe just moved 10 homes out of
Port Moody this past year inpartnership with West Group.
So West Group engaged us inthat demolition service
provision and I reached out tothe Shishal First Nation on the

(23:18):
Sunshine Coast who I knew wasjust about to build some new
housing, and I said well, listen, I found 10 really nice Port
Moody homes, well-maintained,well-renovated, mid-century
ranchers and bungalows, and wecan do this significantly
cheaper than building new.
I can talk a little bit aboutthe finances, what that looks
like.
So they were our second client.
So West Group paid me to clearthose 10 lots.

(23:40):
We did that and the She-ShellNation paid us to provide them
10 homes, just like if I was aprefab or modular company.
Yeah, gotcha, okay.
And then, just to finish, thatthought that third service is
once the home gets there.
Then Renewal acts as a generalcontractor of those 10 homes.

Speaker 1 (23:57):
Fix all the cracks.

Speaker 2 (23:59):
To fix anything that might've been broken.
Yeah, to upgrade.
Let's say there were somesingle pane windows.
We upgraded those to doublepane.
Maybe we added some insulationinto the attics, you know,
converted the gas furnace to aheat pump, because
sustainability is a big part ofwhy I started this company, and
so it's not enough just to savethese mid-century homes, or
whatever home it might be.
It's also are they, are theygoing to be energy efficient, or
as energy efficient as possible?

Speaker 1 (24:20):
Do you guys pour the pad too?
We do everything On the otherside.

Speaker 2 (24:23):
We general contract, all of that.
Okay, cool, nice.
And so we actually added.
So those 10 homes out of PortMoody that we did with West
Group and the Shishal Nation, weadded 10, well, it's actually
seven basement suites below thehomes, so we made them into
duplexes.
Oh nice so we made them intoduplexes just to maximize the
land usage a bit better, and sothey're going to end up with 17

(24:43):
that's going to be complicatedto plop that on top of once.

Speaker 1 (24:46):
You've got a basement right, stairwells and openings
and stuff that's right.

Speaker 2 (24:49):
So you know we had a really good designer and
architect map it all out and say, okay, here's where I think the
mechanical room should go andhere's where the staircase is.
It was great.
The architect I've worked withher for a couple of years now,
and so she's kind of gotten intothis, which is one of the
things that's really good aboutus doing everything is that you
do this a few times and youstart to streamline and
understand everything a bitbetter, as opposed to just

(25:10):
handing the home over to someoneelse.
And now they have this thing,this snowflake, that they've got
to figure out how to deal with.

Speaker 1 (25:16):
Is there always a yay it fits moment when it's all
done?

Speaker 2 (25:20):
Oh, yeah, when those pieces come together, right,
when you go somewhere and you'relike yeah, I can get that home
there, yeah, and then everythingjust starts to align.

Speaker 1 (25:28):
Because on the plans it's like, okay, this is going
to work, but actually seeing ityou're like, wow, the tolerance
is very, very accurate.

Speaker 2 (25:34):
Yeah, it's a logistically challenging
enterprise, right, and that'swhy I've tried to internalize
all of those challenges to sayeverybody else don't worry about
it, developer, don't worryabout it, the person receiving
the home.
I'll take care of andstreamline as much of this as
possible, which ends up being amuch better service for
everybody.

Speaker 1 (25:54):
Okay, so those are the three business lines.
That's right, okay, cool.
So are you able to share anyeconomics around?
Not your profit, but basicallywhat they ended up buying the
house for.
How expensive are they?

Speaker 2 (26:09):
Yeah, so I've got some of this information on our
website, so I'm happy to shareit.
It's about 40 to 60% moreaffordable than building new, or
compared to most modularoptions.

Speaker 1 (26:21):
So how much is a square foot?

Speaker 2 (26:22):
It depends on the destination, james, and so
that's why I always like to usethe percentages, because the
further you go, it changes thecost, and then some communities
just have a higher build cost,so like if you're on Bowen
Island, for example.
Bowen Island- from what I'veheard it's got a $500 a square
foot minimum for building new onBowen Island right, whereas if
you go to Chilliwack maybe youcan do it for, I don't know, 200

(26:43):
square foot, so those numberschange so quickly.
So I generally say that arenewal home, which is what we
have listed on our website, isdelivered as is about 40 to 60%
more affordable than buildingnew 60% more affordable.

Speaker 1 (26:59):
Okay, so okay.

Speaker 2 (27:01):
Delivered as is Right .

Speaker 1 (27:03):
Yeah, so it's either half or less, yeah, gotcha.

Speaker 2 (27:09):
Yeah, and then the question is what kind of
modernizations, upgrades, do youwant to do?
There's a couple of things thatwill have to get fixed, so I'll
give you an example Chimneyswill often knock it out, they
don't move well.
And chimneys will often knockit out, they don't move well.
And it's also a health andsafety thing when you bring a
house into a new community, sowe'll patch it, but then you
want to, you know, reboard itand all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 1 (27:31):
So there's little things like that that we'll have
to do once the home isdelivered.
Yeah, especially themid-century modern stuff.
It's always got that.
Yeah, it's a lot of cool housesactually.
So what is it?
So what is the?
Is that mid-century modern?
Is that what that's like?
I see, I saw a house in Burnabythat was for sale.
You know the big, large beamsin the living room, wood soffit

(27:53):
ceiling.
You know the metal spiralstaircase going downstairs, shag
carpet like the 70s.
Is it 60s or 70s, is that?

Speaker 2 (28:03):
Shag carpet, I don't know.
That feels a little bit more70s, 80s to me.

Speaker 1 (28:06):
Yeah, it's kind of, but there's a lot of cool homes.
I mean, they look likeVancouver specials but they're
not quite as ugly.

Speaker 2 (28:13):
Yeah, I mean, the bread and butter of the work
that we do are mid-centuryrancher bungalow style single
story, and single story isreally important just so that
you can get them underneath thepower and the trolley lines.

Speaker 1 (28:23):
Oh yeah, so never a second story.

Speaker 2 (28:26):
Unless you're really close to water.
A second story is just.
It's usually cost prohibitiveto move two stories, that's why,
ranchers bungalows single story.

Speaker 1 (28:34):
I guess it wouldn't move very well, would they?
Second story they move.

Speaker 2 (28:37):
So when I was at this International Structure Movers
Conference and there was a galaevent on the last night, the
things that these I don't wantto say guys, but it's mostly
guys but the things that thesecompanies move are absolutely
incredible, like huge buildings,apartment buildings, historic
buildings, and they love doingit and it's just incredible to
see what's movable.

Speaker 1 (28:58):
Okay, so we see a lot of this land assembly going on
Cambie Street Basically it wasthat for, but those houses like
really some of them were justpeople that just been waiting
and waiting and waiting for themarket and they just get so
dilapidated they're not worthanything to you guys.

(29:18):
But let's just talk about thissustainability element and then,
like the city of Vancouver, forinstance, so to demo a home,
there's this deposit of like$19,000 or something like that.
If you is it 3.5 kilograms persquare foot you have to take

(29:41):
wood out of.
Is that the deal?
And then you get it back.

Speaker 2 (29:44):
Yeah, so that's Victoria's.

Speaker 1 (29:45):
Oh, it's Victoria's, excuse me, sorry.
Okay, it's Victoria.

Speaker 2 (29:48):
Well, let's just talk about what's happening.
Okay, right, so at a high level, if we want to start there,
canada welcomed a record numberof new Canadians.
I think it was last year or theyear before.
A million new Canadians came tothis country A million in one
year and we're a population of32, 33 million, something like
that Huge numbers, right.
Where are all of these peoplegoing to live?

(30:10):
Right, and I understand thepolicy behind it.
You know we've got an agingpopulation, we're lacking
skilled trades and skilledprofessionals in certain places,
and so we you know, really thegovernment really encouraged
more people to come to thecountry, and I understand that
part of it.
The challenge is do we have theinfrastructure to sustain all of
these new people so quickly?
Right, and, and not only that,but then you've also got this

(30:33):
young generation of, you know,millennials and jed z coming
along board now who want housing.
Right, so you've got these twohuge population pressures on our
housing market right.
People coming to this countryand young people who want
housing, and right, so you'vegot these two huge population
pressures on our housing market,right, people coming to this
country and young people whowant housing, and there simply
isn't enough housing, right.
I think we've all kind ofwrapped our heads around that
concept.
So the provincial government-.

Speaker 1 (30:51):
Is there enough, or is it just too expensive?

Speaker 2 (30:53):
And I would argue so, when you supply and demand, I
mean when you've got Is itsupply of stuff that people
can't afford.
So I think there's we can helpyou get a whole thing about
affordable housing and supply ofhousing.
But you know-.

Speaker 1 (31:06):
Or is it affordable?

Speaker 2 (31:07):
housing On a simple supply demand curve.
I would think it's arguable andI think it's easy to understand
that when this many people arelooking for housing and you
don't have enough housing,you're going to put inflationary
pressure on housing costs, bothrental and to buy, right, and I
think that's.
We've seen a lot of that overthe last let's say, five years,
especially during COVID, right,and then you're seeing in the
United States, like all of thesecompanies I was talking to down

(31:28):
there, same situation, right.
So inflationary pressure onhousing.
We don't have enough housing.
The government, all the levelsof government provincial,
federal, local, municipality areall talking about the need to
build more housing faster.
Right, everybody's talkingabout this and so you know.
The province just blanketrezoned um about a lot of these

(31:49):
single-family lots for higherdensity, right, provincial, it
came from the provincialgovernment.
A lot of the localmunicipalities adopted it and I
understand the need for morehousing, like, don't get me
wrong and especially aroundtransit, transit-oriented
corridors.
Right, like a single-familyhome across the street from a
SkyTrain station.
That doesn't make sense, right,that level of low density in

(32:10):
what really should be ahigh-density neighborhood or
corridor.
Right, so you use the CanbyCorridor as an example, you can
see it in Coquitlam, you'regoing to see it out in the
valley towards when that newSkyTrain line is being opened
right now, yeah, right.
So all of these corridors aregoing through this massive up
zoning and densification Right,and again, I generally support
the densification of our urbanareas.

(32:31):
The challenge, james, is thatthe process to achieve that
density is unbelievably wasteful.
It's unbelievably wasteful froma material perspective.
There's about 100 tons of rawmaterials in the average 1500
square foot rancher or home.
100 tons of materials.
There's 23 tons of embodiedcarbon.
That's the carbon that goesinto building something, all of
the cutting down the trees andshipping it and the

(32:52):
manufacturing, all that kind ofstuff.
And then there's, you know, weestimate there's 20 of the homes
we tear down are actuallyperfectly good homes, right?
So you actually you're losinghousing stock when you tear down
these perfectly good homes andyou're losing character and
heritage and the care and thelove that someone might have put
into that home over decades,right?
So from all three of thoseperspectives, this is incredibly

(33:14):
wasteful.
And our argument to theprovincial government, to the
municipal government, is that weshould be creating stronger
incentives for these homes to be, for all of this material and
for all of these homes to bediverted from the landfill.
And because one third of MetroVancouver's landfill is full of
demolished homes One third On aper capita basis we are one of

(33:36):
the demolition capitals of theworld right now.
When I went down there to NewBern, carolina, last week and
I'm talking to these movers, I'mtelling them about the sheer
volume of demolition happeninghere, their eyes were popping
out of their heads because itwas just.
They've never heard of anythinglike this.
So what I think is reallyincumbent on local governments
who are dealing.
This is the irony of this wholething.

(33:57):
On the one hand, they'repromoting all this density yeah
but, on the other hand, they'rethe ones who are sitting there
looking at our landfills fillingup, yeah, and so they're trying
to deal with all of this wasteand mitigate all this waste
what's toronto like?

Speaker 1 (34:08):
what are their numbers like?

Speaker 2 (34:09):
I'm not actually too sure I have.

Speaker 1 (34:11):
I've been mostly looking at bc okay, yeah, I mean
it makes sense that vancouveris the way it is just due to how
stunning it is and and it'slike a jewel right West Coast
jewel Well, it's like a jewel,but then also we can't keep
sprawling out.

Speaker 2 (34:24):
Like you look at Calgary, you can just keep
sprawling out right.
Yeah, but at a certain pointyou've got the border to the
south, you've got the ocean tothe west, you've got mountains
into the north and to the east.
Where are we going to go?
Yeah, but I mean we're stillgrowing out in the valley
abbotsford, chilliwack, all that, and then there's the alr and
how much land is actually going?

Speaker 1 (34:44):
to be out there.
Yeah, but yeah, that'sinteresting.
Yeah, I mean it doesn't.

Speaker 2 (34:46):
It makes sense so much money comes here, that, uh,
I mean it makes sense to knockthings down for what people want
yeah, and I just at like at avalue level just because it's so
expensive for sure, but it'slike I've come across james

(35:06):
homes that were fullymid-century, homes that were
fully renovated in the last 10years 150 000 renovations slated
for demo.
I've come across homes built inthe last five years slated for
demolition Like this mindsetdoesn't make a lot of sense to
me.

Speaker 1 (35:24):
So what is that?
So just just to, there's got to, is there?
I want to get into just theweeds on this just for a second.
Is that the?
If you're going to spend, let'ssay, on a bungalow in Vancouver
, burnaby, like single familyhome on its own, what would the

(35:46):
lot be?
10 by 100?
By what'd it be?
What's a typical lot?

Speaker 2 (35:54):
40 feet wide.
40, 50 wide feet wide.

Speaker 1 (35:57):
Right, okay, and then depth wise.

Speaker 2 (36:01):
I'm not even too sure Okay.

Speaker 1 (36:03):
Yeah.
So if you, let's just sayyou've got a, this is a bungalow
, it's not very big, you'retalking maybe 1,200 square feet,
okay, and you and its landvalue is, let's say, it's $1.9
million, mm-hmm, $1.8 million.

(36:23):
Well, I'm not gonna spend thatkind of dough living in a 1,200
square foot bungalow.
For sure.
Just not doing it, I'll just gosomewhere else.
Yeah.
So the issue that you have isyou have that the land is worth
so much money that the structurehas to have enough cachet for
what you spent.

Speaker 2 (36:45):
Yeah, like I said, I'm not advocating for these
homes to stay where they are.

Speaker 1 (36:48):
You want to move.

Speaker 2 (36:49):
I just think that my argument is that the process to
achieve this density is sowasteful that we should come up
with better alternatives to justdemoing and putting all of
these homes in the landfill.

Speaker 1 (36:59):
Yeah, and there are responsible and moving them is
the way to do that.

Speaker 2 (37:01):
So there's a couple of them.
So I would argue and I thinkthis is what municipalities are
looking at, because you broughtup the policy from Victoria
relocation, which is what we do,and I estimate we could
probably be doing this about twoto 300 times a year we could be
moving two to 300 homes a year.
We only currently move theindustry.
There's about five companiesthat do this right now in bc.
They move about 100 year homesa year.
Right, so we could be doublingand tripling the volume of homes

(37:25):
that we can save.
Number one, right.
The second solution, which isnot actually what I focus on, so
I focus on home relocation,repurposing.
The second solution, which iscomplementary in my view, is
deconstruction, yeah,deconstructions where you pull
the whole home apart and there'sall materials you take all the
materials.
But there's a really keydefinition of deconstruction is
where you pull the whole homeapart, take all the materials.
You take all the materials.
But there's a really keydefinition of deconstruction
which I think is gettinggreenwashed a lot.
Deconstruction in its true,defined form is preserving the

(37:49):
material in its original form,not breaking it, not crunching
it.
Recycling isn't deconstruction.
Deconstruction is when you pullit apart and then you have the
ability to take the nails out,replane it and then put it back
into the supply chain.
Gotcha Right, because there's abunch of companies out there
and I see it because I look atthis there's some demolition
companies that say they dodeconstruction and what they're

(38:15):
really doing is recycling.

Speaker 1 (38:15):
They crunch everything, they put all the
wood into one bin and it getsrecycled, that's great.

Speaker 2 (38:18):
I'm not saying it's better than just putting it all
into the same bin, but it's notdeconstruction, so let's not get
those two things confused.

Speaker 1 (38:25):
Gotcha okay.

Speaker 2 (38:28):
And I think that you're seeing policy also move
in the direction ofdeconstruction.
So I think municipalities andMetro Vancouver and all these
different agencies are lookingat all of this waste and saying,
no, this doesn't make any sense.

Speaker 1 (38:46):
Let's find more responsible alternatives, and I
think this is where relocationand deconstruction are starting
to really emerge as bettersolutions to just doing all this
demo.
Okay, so I mean, is there adevelopment cost advantage to
having deconstruction from thecity?
Do they give you a break?

Speaker 2 (38:59):
So there are different tools that governments
are now using to encouragedevelopers to do this.
Okay, so Victoria you broughtup Victoria they enacted a
$19,500 deposit.
That applies to any pre-1950home, to any pre-1950 home, and

(39:22):
if you can prove that you'vesalvaged X amount of the board
feet, you get your deposit backon the removal of that pre-1950
home.
If you go back to the city andyou don't have the receipts to
show that you salvaged X amountof the board feet, they keep
your $19,500 deposit.

Speaker 1 (39:40):
So what is this deposit?
For?

Speaker 2 (39:42):
The deposit is kind of an incentive for you to
either look at relocation ordeconstruction.
Okay.
So it's kind of like you knowyou buy a case of beer and it's
got all that recycling.
You know the 10 cents for thecans.

Speaker 1 (39:56):
Yeah, no, I get it, but I have to buy that.

Speaker 2 (40:00):
If you want, you choose to buy.
It's got that fee.

Speaker 1 (40:02):
I can't have the beer otherwise.

Speaker 2 (40:03):
Well, you can return the can after and you get your
10 cents back.

Speaker 1 (40:06):
I know, but I can't walk out with the fluid.
Only that's my point point.
So I guess what I'm saying isis that if you buy a home and
you want to, demo it.

Speaker 2 (40:17):
Do you lose that 19 grand?
You get it back if you relocateor deconstruct it.
If you don't relocate it and ifyou don't deconstruct, the
municipality keeps that 19.5.
So you lose it in that scenario.

Speaker 1 (40:27):
But are you subscribing to a program?

Speaker 2 (40:30):
Nope, it's just part of the demo.
It's part of the demolitionapplication fee.

Speaker 1 (40:33):
That's all I'm trying to say.

Speaker 2 (40:34):
Oh, yeah, okay.

Speaker 1 (40:35):
So the demolition fee is $19,000.

Speaker 2 (40:37):
It's a deposit.
Yeah, gotcha, yeah.
For every for every Pre 1950home in the city of Victoria.

Speaker 1 (40:44):
Gotcha.
Okay.
So it's basically yeah.
So you're basically if you canprove that you're using 3.5, was
it kilograms per square foot oftimber, then you basically
don't pay your demolition feeyou get it back because they do
take it from you up front.
For sure, but they're going totake it anyway for any demo of a

(41:07):
pre-1950s home.

Speaker 2 (41:09):
That's right in Victoria.
Yeah, yeah, so there you go.

Speaker 1 (41:11):
So perfect, okay, this makes perfect sense.
Do you think Vancouver would dosomething similar?

Speaker 2 (41:15):
I think more and more municipalities are looking at
different tools to move theindustry in this direction.
Okay, and it's because ourlandfills are filling up and all
of these perfectly goodmaterials are ending up in our
landfills, and it shouldn't,right.

Speaker 1 (41:31):
So what about the homes that are two-story?
You can't get near thosebecause they're hard to move.
Probably Would you.
So let's say you got a 10parcel land assembly project
that you're looking at and like,hey, there's a bungalow there.

(41:53):
I can probably figure out wherethat can go.
I can mark it on you.
Mark it on your website beforeyou take it down.
Right?

Speaker 2 (42:00):
Before we look at demo we try to move it If it's a
good home.
When I say take it down, I meanmove it yeah.

Speaker 1 (42:04):
Or even start to move it.
What's that time for thedevelopers obviously going okay,
I need this thing clear.
And then you have to have thisyou have to market this eligible
home in a certain period oftime.
So you guys like are on thepressure clock as soon as that
opportunity is there.

Speaker 2 (42:24):
That's a really good stream of thought, james.
So when I make the commitmentto the developer, let's say I
work with West Group and theygot 10 homes out in Port Moody
and West Group's like okay,glenn, you can, we'll engage you
to do this service, but we needthe site clear by october 1st.
Yeah, and because we need toget going on our development,
our schedules start in october2nd it's like okay, so I now

(42:46):
have a deadline to work againstthe commitment that I make to
west group and this is reallyimportant the commitment that I
make to West Group and this isreally important the commitment
that I make to the developer is,one way or another, I will
provide you a clear lot byOctober 1st.
If it gets down to the wire andI haven't been able to find a
way to move the home or find aplace to take the home, I'll
demo it.
And I'll recycle the materialsand all that kind of stuff, but

(43:07):
that's how I get out of thatpressure cooker situation.
Now there's another thing thatI'm working on right now, which
is basically working on someproperties outside of Metro
Vancouver where I can basicallyhave a place to take them, not
in terms of storage, butactually to set them up, Because
if I don't have to put thosetwo pieces together every time
and let's say, there's 30 lotsthat I've secured somewhere

(43:30):
outside of Metro Vancouver andevery time I come across a nice
home I know exactly where it'sgoing- so you can leave it on
the steel girders and.
Well, would it actually remove?

Speaker 1 (43:40):
And move it again if you were to find the buyer for
it.

Speaker 2 (43:43):
Well, no, let's say, I own 30 lots or 50 lots
somewhere in a non-urbancommunity, right?
I see, and they're all ready togo, they're serviced, it's bare
land, all that kind of stuff,and I know I can get homes there
.
This is what I'm workingtowards.
So if I've got 50 lotssomewhere in a non-urban
community, I find a really nicehome.
I don't have to do themarketplace thing.

(44:03):
I don't have to wait to see ifall of the pieces align, the
stars align, I know exactlywhere it's going.
The second I see it right andRight, and that's what I'm kind
of working towards to try toremove that pressure, that time
constraint.
So you're trying to put someneighborhoods together
Eventually, yeah, and we'regetting closer and closer to
doing it.

Speaker 1 (44:19):
That's cool.
So you get to the civil park.
Do some roads.

Speaker 2 (44:22):
We're going to do it likely with a couple of nations
first, I see, and then we'll seewhat goes after that Cool.
Um so can we just so so far, umwhat?
You're saying is that you havemoved 17?
Yeah, plus a, plus aschoolhouse, plus, let's say,

(44:42):
about 20 homes at this point, 20buildings at this point, mostly
homes.

Speaker 1 (44:46):
Okay.
And then they came from where?
Um, mostly Vancouver, port Mo,moody, coquitlam.
Okay, and then what are thelocal like?
What's the biggest headache foryou when you're going?
Okay, is it the, the transportyou're like?
I hope it goes smoothly.
Is it the the fitting on theother side?

(45:09):
Is it the you know raising thehome?
I mean, how did they do that?
First of all, is it hydraulics?

Speaker 2 (45:15):
Yeah, steel beams and a unified jacking system with
hydraulics.

Speaker 1 (45:18):
yeah, Okay, interesting, and there's certain
companies that do that or youguys do that.
We're getting into it.
You sub that out.

Speaker 2 (45:25):
Up until the last few months we had been subbing it
and we're starting to get intomore of it in-house.

Speaker 1 (45:31):
Right, Okay, Wow, that's pretty crazy, so do you.
So I would assume that most ofthese houses are on a.
Are they on a?
They're on a foundation, right?

Speaker 2 (45:41):
When we find them.
Yeah, yep, crawl space orwhatever it might be, basement
suite.

Speaker 1 (45:45):
So where's the separation then?
Where do you lift from?

Speaker 2 (45:54):
So essentially what happens you can think of Jenga
or something like that you takethese steel beams and you get
them under the floor joists.
Okay, and there's differentstrategies about how you
actually get the steel beamunder the floor joists.
But you need some space underthe floor joists minimum about
four feet right and that createsenough space.
What they do is that they thenset up.
So under the steel beams.
You have to do at the house youhave to cut the belly band,

(46:17):
obviously, the wires and theHVAC and all that kind of stuff.
So you prep the home and thenyou come and you put the beams
underneath, basically create thepunch holes into the basement
suite or the crawl space, putthe beam through, and then you
usually create cribbing and thenyou put the jack on the
cribbing and the jack pushes onthe beam and that happens at
like four or six or whateverpoints.

(46:38):
It is around and they're allsynchronized and then they go,
they get lifted and then you putthe beams on, you lower it down
onto dollies usually dolliesand then the dollies, uh, get
connected to a bunk and the bunkgets connected to the truck and
then truck moves it out crazy.
Yeah, it's wild um you knowwhat's interesting, james, and
just as an aside, is when I wasdown there at this international

(47:00):
conference, a lot of these move, these movers are doing so much
work right now in the unitedstates because of flooding and
hurricanes oh yeah, peoplewanting to save their homes and
they just want to get out of theperilous areas.
The first morning I was there,there was a whole presentation
by NOAA, the American agency,and they've run the analysis

(47:21):
about what the Americangovernment's going to have to
pay out in insurance claims overthe next, let's say, 20 years.
And they've, you know, based onthat analysis, they said it'd
be cheaper and more costeffective if we pay these owners
to lift their homes.
So these moving companies, whoalso all do lifting yeah,
there's hundreds of thousands ofhomes that are going to get

(47:43):
need to get lifted.
Um, you can argue because ofclimate change.
You can argue because ofchanging climate.
Uh, that we're you know.
Now we got flood-plwn areas, wegot more intense hurricanes.
All of these different naturalphenomena are putting all of
these homes at risk, and sothere's so much work, especially
down in the United States, todo this, and I would be
interested to take a look atwhat that looks like in Canada
too.

Speaker 1 (48:02):
Yeah, well, I mean it makes sense that the—so here
the land is worth too much,there the land is too dangerous.
Yeah, both good reasons to movehomes.
Yeah, yeah, that's pretty cool.
So what do you see?
What sort of innovations arewhen you went to this conference
, to that association?

(48:24):
Are there new tools?
Are there new things, newtechnologies that you're seeing
that excite you?

Speaker 2 (48:31):
I think you know.
So I don't come fromconstruction Lawyer.
You are now.
I don't come from aconstruction background and a
lot of these, especially in themoving industry, it's so
family-based right.
My dad did this, my grandpa didthis and literally there's no
school to learn what they do.

(48:52):
It's a highly specialized trade.
There's no online program.
There's no school to learn whatthey do.
It's a highly specialized trade.
There's no online program,there's no school.
Your dad taught you, someforeman taught you.
It's like the old masonry, andso that kind of keeps it as a
closed loop in a lot of waysbecause it makes it really,
especially because theequipment's expensive and the
trade's so specialized.
So it's a really hard barrier toentry or a high barrier to
entry for people trying to getinto this.

(49:13):
But so it's really hard barrierto entry or high barrier to
entry for people trying to getinto this.
But what I also think that doesis it stops innovation and
creativity.
Because, when you've grown up insomething your whole life,
maybe you're not looking at itfrom an outsider's perspective.
Maybe you're not looking at theindustry and challenging the
established norms and theestablished practices.
Right, my dad did it this way,my grandpa did it this way.

Speaker 1 (49:32):
Yeah, you want your own boat, though, I guess, right
.

Speaker 2 (49:37):
You want to protect your practices right.

Speaker 1 (49:38):
My dad did it this way, my grandpa did it this way.

Speaker 2 (49:39):
Yeah, you want your own boat, though I guess, right,
I'm gonna protect her on turf.
Well, it's not just that, it'sjust also the mindset yeah,
right, when you've just beendoing it for so long, we've been
doing it for this long.
And then I come along glenn andrenewal, and this is why they
keep inviting me to come tothese things I don't have, I
don't come from this industry,but I look at it and I'm like
wait a second, if you did these10 things differently, I think
you go from 100 homes a year to300 homes a year.
I think you provide a betterservice to the developer.
Not just take the homes youwant, but take the whole site

(50:00):
and provide that one-stopsolution.
Minimize the headache and thecoordination, Internalize that
and I think we're going to findway more homes through just that
one adaptation.
The other thing that we justdid is we built some software to
help us identify where allthese homes are.

Speaker 1 (50:17):
Yeah, I was gonna say like how do you find those?

Speaker 2 (50:19):
You do marketing, you do media, do interviews like
this, right, but we've builtsome proprietary software coming
back to my background inbuilding software as a company
10, 12 years ago, that is,scanning all of the permit
applications and then analyzingthem for the contact data where
the homes are, what do the homeslook like and then we can reach

(50:39):
out to those folks with ourdemolition service.
So that's number two.
Number three is, even when thehome gets that final destination
, not just delivering it butGCing that thing all the way to
occupancy.
Because you're right, this is,you know the complexity of where
the staircase is and where theelectrical panel is and just all
of those things there's.
You know you want this to be assimplified as possible and the

(51:00):
analysis or the analogy that Iuse, james, is when you looked
at Steve Jobs and Wozniak whenthey were starting Apple, they
were looking at a whole bunch ofpeople who were hobbyists,
right, and it was tinkering, andyou kind of had to expect
people to do a lot with you andall that kind of stuff.
And Steve said no, no, no.
For this to be truly a consumerproduct, this needs to be as
simple as possible and asintuitive as possible, and I

(51:22):
think that's kind of the lensthat I'm bringing to this
industry right now is how do wemake this as simple and
intuitive and simplified andstreamlined as possible?
And I think if we do some ofthese things, this industry
grows big time, and I thinkthat's why they keep inviting me
to go share some of thesethings with these other moving
companies.

Speaker 1 (51:38):
So it's kind of like the heart transplant business.
You gotta figure who needs thehearts and then you gotta figure
out who are the donors, andthen maybe it's the reverse
marketplace.
It's like what communities areinterested in having more
affordable housing.

Speaker 2 (51:53):
Yeah, I mean, that's one way of looking at it.
Yeah, interesting.
The analogy that I use a lot oftimes when I speak is what
Steve did with the iPhone.

Speaker 1 (52:01):
Okay, he took all the buttons off.

Speaker 2 (52:05):
Yeah, you know the Palm Pilot yeah.

Speaker 1 (52:07):
I remember that.

Speaker 3 (52:07):
Have you ever watched that first video where he
announced the phone?
Yeah, I talk about it all thetime.

Speaker 2 (52:10):
Oh, I love that when video when he announced and I
talk about all.
I love that when he talks aboutthe launch of the iphone.
You know he's got all thisgreat enthusiasm about this is
this is a product that should beused by the millions, not just
by lawyers and doctors and allthese specialized people and he
says you know the stylus, youremember.
I don't remember that part inthe video.
He's like he pulls out thestylus, you lose it.
And then he you know, he harpson the blackberry, the keyboard

(52:32):
that was taking up half thescreen the fixed buttons yeah,
the fixed buttons, theseseemingly small things,
sometimes, if you just thinkthrough an adaptation, it's like
no, it could be in its own way,kind of revolutionary, and I
think that's kind of the thingsthat we're looking at in terms
of the work we're doing rightnow.

Speaker 1 (52:48):
So what are the fixed buttons of your business right
now that you'd like to remove?

Speaker 2 (52:53):
Most of these movers aren't demolition providers.
They don't do anything once thehome is delivered.
So there's two buttons rightthere that are cumbersome and
sticky.
They don't have a lot of goodintel about how to find these
homes, which is the softwarethat we're building right now.
Those are three.
I could probably take youthrough another seven.
They're not doing the policyadvocacy that we're doing right
now, right to try to move theneedle and try to encourage

(53:14):
municipalities to move theentire industry in this
direction, you know.
So there's four, there's sixmore that I could probably
outline that if, collectively wedo this, I'm pretty confident
we're gonna be moving two tothree hundred homes the next
five years is there aconcentration of the IHP ideal

(53:36):
home profile?

Speaker 1 (53:37):
Is that what, oh?
Yeah, like you know idealcustomer profile, ideal home
profile Is there within moreexpensive areas, are there less
of those?

Speaker 2 (53:51):
In terms of homes that we're trying to find.

Speaker 1 (53:53):
Yeah, like when you do the analysis with your
software, you're probably goingto find hot pockets from
development years in historythere was more single level
bungalows than there were inother areas from other like
you're probably going to seesome once you do the analysis
you're going to see some verytelling historical trends of

(54:14):
building in general.
Yeah, totally.

Speaker 2 (54:16):
Right.
And then, like my sister's home, that 1910, 1920 home, it kind
of looked a little bit more likethe homes that you see built
today a little bit tighter, notas wide, taller right, and then
at some point in the 40s, 50sand 60s we went to these low
ranch or bungalow style and thenwe've come back up.
So that's a really goodquestion and it's not only the

(54:37):
question of what's the idealprofile of the home, but what's
the ideal profile of theneighborhood in terms of
accessing roads to get them outfrom.

Speaker 1 (54:44):
Like traditional streets are easier, or with
alleys, without alleys.

Speaker 2 (54:49):
You know there's a couple of things to look for.
You want to be close to widestreets.
Okay, you know there's a coupleof things to look for.
You want to be close to widestreets.
Coquitlam has a lot.
Surrey has a lot.
Carisdale is like really hardto move anything out of
Carisdale.
For example, you got all thosereally tight, windy roads.
You got all of those big,beautiful oak trees overlying
the streets.
Yeah, to get anything tightthrough one of those streets is
really challenging.

Speaker 1 (55:09):
Yeah, some of the oak trees are like right on the
curb.

Speaker 2 (55:12):
Yeah, yeah.
So not only is it the idealhouse profile, but it's also the
ideal moving neighborhoodprofile that we have to look at.

Speaker 1 (55:20):
So with the city of Vancouver and what they're
trying to do with thedensification of, let's say,
between 12th Broadway, arbutus,that area, you got your lasers
hot on those areas.

Speaker 2 (55:38):
Yeah.
So there's going to be a ton ofreally good homes torn down,
character homes, well-renovatedhomes, people that had a bit of
money and they took really goodcare of their homes.
In that whole area I thinkthere's going to be some
potential for relocation,especially if we cut the roof
off and we get the single-storypart that we want and we can get
it through roads.

(55:58):
So Vancouver is a little bitunique and this is getting into
the weeds of this a bit.
Vancouver is unique from NorthVancouver, richmond, surrey, all
those other neighborhoodsbecause of the trolley lines,
okay, and the trolley linespresent a pretty unique
challenge.
Now the trolley lines start.
They're not right on the water,so if you go to Kitts, there's
a couple blocks between thetrolley lines and Kitts.
If you go down Marine Drivethere's a couple blocks between

(56:19):
marine drive and the fraserriver.
So there's a couple of areas ofvancouver that are outside of
the trolley lines, but most ofvancouver's within the trolley
line boundaries, trolley lines,I think they're sitting around
16 feet and so you and you can'tcome within two feet of the
trolley lines.
Right, if you come within twofeet.
I can't remember exactly whathappens, but if you start
touching them, for sure ittriggers the whole, like

(56:40):
removing, temporarily removingthe trolley line, which people
do it all the time, but it'sreally expensive and you do it
at night and they have to takeit.
I've talked to a Coast Mountainbus about this a couple of
years ago and they don't likedoing it because they have to
shift or change a lot of theirtrolley routes to electric buses
or just normal diesel busesthat night.
So it's this whole costly thing.

(57:03):
So when we want to move a ranchor a bungalow specifically out
of the city of Vancouver andthis is actually one of the
things I was talking to somefolks down in the US about was
about cutting the top part ofthe roof, hinging it, tarping it
and then reestablishing that sothat will give you your
clearance to get under thetrolley lines, and then
reestablishing that on the otherside once you get there and

(57:25):
then reinforcing it and all thatkind of stuff.

Speaker 1 (57:27):
So when you say hinging, Just like a Simpson.

Speaker 2 (57:29):
There's like these.
You know the modular companiesuse these interesting little
hinges just for the trusses onthe roof.
Oh, I see Okay.

Speaker 1 (57:35):
Wow, crazy.
That sounds pretty, prettyamazing.
So is this something that is atrend that's getting more
popular throughout the world?
Or I mean, are you on theupswing of the no buttons
industry here?

Speaker 2 (57:52):
yeah, that's it's a good.
It's a good way, it's a goodthought exercise.
I actually think the industryis moving away from this okay.
So when I was down in newberntalking to these other moving
companies from around the worldthe complexity of what we do and
the money that they can makejust lifting homes they're like
Glenn it's so much easier for usjust to lift a home, a failing

(58:12):
foundation.
Someone wants to add a basementsuite under their home.
Maybe NOAA or FEMA or someonepaid them to lift and shore up
their home.
There's so much more money andeasier for us to just do that.
We focus on that and theindustry has actually been
moving in that direction, awayfrom moving homes on roads.
There's a couple of movers thatjust focus on it entirely, but
I think generally the directionhas been away from it.

Speaker 1 (58:34):
Like in order to achieve density?
You mean Just adding anotherfloor in between by lifting the
home?

Speaker 2 (58:38):
Yeah, I know but, isn't most of this the land
assembly issue?
Well, I'm talking about theseother moving companies that I'm
talking to in Minnesota andSouth.
Dakota and Florida and allthese other places or in the
prairies.

Speaker 1 (58:50):
Where the land's not worth much.

Speaker 2 (58:51):
Where the land's not as worth as much.
So I guess I'm trying to answeryour question that I actually
think the industry as a wholehas been moving away from what
we're doing.
I think renewal is in this veryinteresting position right now.
We doing, I think renewal is inthis very interesting position
right now.
We're acting as a catalyst toswing this back a little bit at
least, starting here in BC.
Because you look at the housingshortage crisis, you look at

(59:11):
the costs of new constructionespecially now if you look at
some of what the tariffs mightend up doing you look at how
much land we have and you lookat this need for I would argue
for more sustainable development.
You put all those thingstogether.
I think that there's this greatopportunity to move 200 or 300
homes a year to non-urbancommunities and repurpose them
as good, low-carbon, affordablehousing.

(59:31):
So I actually think the more wedo this, the more we're going
to inspire other people to getback into this, at least in some
areas.

Speaker 1 (59:40):
So do you know, as you go from moving 17 homes, how
many?
How many do you plan on doingin the next 12 months?

Speaker 2 (59:48):
Uh about 40.

Speaker 1 (59:50):
40.
Okay, and then okay, so that'syeah, so it's a hundred percent
growth over a hundred percentgrowth.
So you would do that again, ahundred percent in the year
after.

Speaker 2 (01:00:00):
I see that as the that, that I see that as the
trajectory in this industry,when you look at the sheer
volume of homes being demolishedand this is only going to get
worse, and actually that'ssomething that we haven't even
touched on is that we put areport together with this other
company called, or thisorganization called, lighthouse,
and basically what we did is welooked at the last 10 years of
demolition residentialsingle-family home demolitions

(01:00:23):
across Metro Vancouver.
We looked at it per municipalityas well.
We did it for Greater Victoria,we did it for Nanaimo, we did
it for Kelowna and we showedthat over the last 10 years
across Metro Vancouver we'vetorn down 30,000 single-family
homes, 30,000.
Last 10 years just in MetroVancouver.
And what the report shows is,because of all of this blanket

(01:00:46):
upzoning of single family lotsfor density, that there's going
to be a 35 increase over thenext 10 years.
And all of that demolitionright.
So from an environmental,social perspective, you can say
that's going to cause a lot moreof a problem.
From a business perspective,I'm going to say that's a lot
more homes, and good homes, thatwe're going to be able to

(01:01:07):
relocate and repurpose.
So do I see our trajectory asdoubling for the next few years?
I certainly do.

Speaker 1 (01:01:14):
Wow.
So what do you think?
Because you're a serviceprovider and the there's um, the
widget will be your processcorrect the widget will be our
process explain well anybusiness sort of has a moat of
how they how they're competitiveand you know, with the software

(01:01:38):
you built before, well, maybesomeone else hadn't built that
software like that and the moatis that someone else has got to
pay developers go through thatbrain damage and try and achieve
what you already made, yeah,whereas with your company, after
you've done your 17 homes, youdo 40 homes, then you do 80 the
next year.

(01:01:59):
You have your widget.
Your thing of value is how youdo it and the barrier of entry
of people just coming in andsaying you have your widget,
your thing of value is how youdo it and the barrier of entry
of people just coming in andsaying, well, I want to do what
Glenn does.
It's like, yeah, good luck,just because if you've got the
40, 80, you know you've gotyourself 150 homes of experience

(01:02:23):
of being able to do that.
So what do you think if youwere to look forward 36 months
from now?
What do you think you're goingto be looking back at going?
I did not see that coming.
Or you think your spidey senseswere correct?

Speaker 2 (01:02:38):
It's such a great question.
I feel like I'm sitting downwith a business mentor, because
that's the kind of question likewalk me through this, like
vision this out for me.

Speaker 1 (01:02:47):
Yeah, it's not a grilling session.
What I'm trying to figure outis often we do this, you know,
we just about to put our headdown in a pillow and kind of
wake up thinking, and we getthese sort of epiphanies and we
think of hey, you know, in acertain amount of time I could
see this.
You get like this clear visionof the way things go.
Do you have any of thosethoughts that you come across

(01:03:08):
day-to-day basis?

Speaker 2 (01:03:09):
Yeah, and when I say businessmen driving, it's just
such a thought-provokingquestion, I just think it's
intuitive and it's visionary andit's questioning.
So that was what I was kind ofhighlighting there.
Yeah no problem.
I think that what we do ischallenging.
I know it's challenging becauseI've lived it for five years
and I've got a lot of otherbusiness mentors other than you,

(01:03:31):
james um, who I explain to themwhat we do and how we do it,
and the stress of trying tosolve this problem, or the
challenge of trying to solvethat problem, and, and you know,
the one comment I keep gettingback from them is you know,
glenn, this is what they say tome.
It's like, you know, glenn,there are easier ways to make
money, and I was like, yep, I'msure there are, but I believe in

(01:03:54):
this and I believe in whatwe're doing and why we're doing
it, and I'm trying to solvesomething bigger than just
building a company.
Like I often say, that renewalis a campaign disguised as a
company Interesting, okay, andif you know about my background
and know about who I am, you canput that together pretty
quickly.
This isn't just about movinghouses or saving some homes from
the landfill.
This is something aboutsomething way bigger for me, and

(01:04:16):
that's about reshaping how wethink, what we value, how we act
, how we behave and thecommunities and how we build our
communities.
That, to me, is the biggerobjective here, and renewal is
just kind of this tool to try toachieve that.
And when you look at the scaleof environmental degradation,
when you look at the scale ofsocial problems in this world,
do I have the belief that I'mgoing to change those things?

(01:04:39):
No, but you try to send forth atiny ripple of hope Coming back
to our story of no, but you tryto send forth a tiny ripple of
hope Coming back to our story ofhope, and you try to send forth
a tiny ripple of hope thatinspires people to think and do
things a little bit differently.
And Ted Kennedy, at RobertKennedy's, during his eulogy, he
said that many tiny ripples ofhope come together and create

(01:05:01):
the biggest change.
And I kind of feel like that'swhere we actually sit.
So do I think we're going tohave competition?
I know we will In a few years,when people really see something
more happening, and there'salready a couple of moving
companies out there that dosimilar work.
They're going to maybe adaptand maybe they're going to look
at a couple of the innovativethings that we're going to do
and they're going to try to copythose things.
I just think that this is sucha huge, the scale of this is so

(01:05:27):
big and it's challenging what wedo and you have to really want
to be in this.
Yeah.
That I think there's enoughbarriers that will protect us,
but there's also enough work infront of us that we'll be okay.

Speaker 1 (01:05:36):
There's going to be some interesting robotic plays,
I think, in this, in therobotics Just in the tooling of
tooling and equipment for theprocess.
I think that's going to changea lot.
And that because I think thatthere's a company that I've I
have interviewed a few timescalled Super Droids and they

(01:05:59):
make robots for construction andyeah, there could be some
interesting things within yourindustry of pre-work.
Maybe.
I'm sure that the heavy movingis probably not gonna change all
that much, just because I mean,it might be less humans

(01:06:20):
involved but the equipment'sgonna look the same probably.
But yeah, it's a pretty excitingindustry you're in and I think
that, just to add on to what youwere saying, is when you do
have a profitable altruism interms of the paradigm of a
company, it kind of brings a lotof positive energy towards the

(01:06:45):
motion of things.
Because when people are justtrying to do things just for the
sake of money which istypically just business, because
it's survival and it's how wesustain ourselves, which is fair
enough but when you add thataltruism piece here, it suddenly
like grease to the process,because you know, being

(01:07:08):
capitalist is a pretty cold,cold world, right, if you add a
bit of warmth to it with somealtruism.
It's a good thing.

Speaker 2 (01:07:16):
Well, and it's full circle of what we started this
conversation on, which was hope,is contagious.
Yeah, and I do think that whenyou show up and you say I'm
trying to save these homes, andnot just because I want to make
a buck, but I'm genuinely careabout trying to shape this
industry and shape ourcommunities differently I think
it comes across when I talk todevelopers and when I talk to

(01:07:36):
people on the other side, and soit is contagious when you try
to.
There's an expression inpolitical campaigns that I
worked on is that wear yourheart on your sleeve, and I
believe that in the work that wedid on campaigns, but I also
believe that in the work thatwe're doing as a company.

Speaker 1 (01:07:53):
You know it's crazy when you think of the.
There's a parallel here andit's not quite the same, but I
think there's the same romanceis there and that is the resto
mod of old cars.
You know, when you see whatthey, what Singer, did with the

(01:08:13):
911, they take you have to bringthem an old 911, a 90s 911,
okay, early 90s, before the 99,.
I don't know how much you knowabout 911s, but there was like a
certain pocket there of the oldoriginal 911 shape, the last
years of that.

(01:08:33):
You bring them the car.
You gotta pay about a rough oneof those.
It's gonna be about 80 grand.
You drop it off to them andthis is how they get around the
trademark of using Porsche,because as long as they have a
car they can do whatever theywant with it.
But they can't make a Porschefrom scratch because they'd be

(01:08:55):
in violation of Porsche's designright.
So, but those cars end up beingsix $700,000 after they're done
with them.
So you see some of these homes.
Maybe there is a how thingswere built back then.

(01:09:15):
Let's say a home is say it's a70s home home.
There's a quality of timber anda quality of materials in those
homes that you don't getanymore.
Right, you get a lot ofcomposite stuff now, when then
it was solid wood, even soffitsand ceilings.
It's like, you know, solid fur.
You're like wow okay, that wouldhave been something else.

(01:09:38):
So there's lots of cool things,I think, in terms of what kind
of homes.
It's not just about rescuingthem.
It's like what can you do withthem, what can you convert them
to, and what kind of virtue goesalong with those, because I

(01:09:59):
think there's a couple of piecesthere.
Because I think there's acouple of pieces there and it is
that you know, some people aregoing to want to not impact the
planet from how they live.
So it's like, hey, this homeused to be over in who knows
where.
Now it's here and we were ableto modify this in a way that it

(01:10:21):
is the optimal, most beautifulversion this house was ever
going to be.
So maybe there's somethingthere.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:10:28):
Well, yeah, it's that story of breathing life back
into something and it's trulythe story of renewal, which is
really why I came up with it.
I named it what I named it it'sthe story of breathing life
into something that exists.
Because, you're right, you know, in pre-1970 in British
Columbia, all these wood-framedhomes, they were built with
first growth timber.
After the early 1970s westarted getting into the fast

(01:10:49):
growth stuff, but before that,and the craftsmanship that went
into those homes and the careand the love that a lot of
people have put into their homesover the years.
So there's a spiritual valueand there's an emotional value
and there's a craftsmanshipvalue and there's a heritage
value and there's a materialvalue.
Yeah, and I, just when I lookat my sister's home, when I look
at a lot of these homes that wecome across almost on a daily

(01:11:11):
basis, I'm like, wow, thisshouldn't be demolished.
And that's why we're trying tofind these better solutions.

Speaker 1 (01:11:17):
Yeah, that's cool.
It's kind of like if you wereto go buy a I don't know a new
Hyundai now, and then you wouldspend the same amount of money
on a home that you could move.

Speaker 2 (01:11:39):
The quality.
It's like moving a Mercedes orbuying a Hyundai.
Well, yeah, and we moved a112-year-old schoolhouse from
Kitsilano to the Squamish Nation, where was that?

Speaker 1 (01:11:47):
Where was the schoolhouse from?
It was in Kitsilano.
Where was it?

Speaker 2 (01:11:50):
Cornwall and Maple Little yellow schoolhouse around
the corner.

Speaker 1 (01:11:54):
Like near Seagulls Bagels there.

Speaker 2 (01:11:56):
Seagulls Bagels Right by the white spot.

Speaker 1 (01:11:58):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Across the street this is thelittle school there.
Oh, that's sweet Nice.

Speaker 2 (01:12:03):
Henry Hudson Elementary was growing.
They're building a new schoolthere and right on the corner of
Cornwall and Maple there was a2,000 square foot, 112 year old
schoolhouse.

Speaker 1 (01:12:12):
So where's that?

Speaker 2 (01:12:13):
now.
We moved it, we rescued it.
Surprise, surprise, yeah.
And if you ever drive over theLionsgate Bridge, james, on the
right-hand side.
It's no longer yellow, it'smaroon.
The nation took the color andtook the story back.
There's a whole thing aboutthat building, because it was
part of the expansion of thecity of Vancouver and it pushed
up against the old village ofSanag.

(01:12:34):
Okay, because it's right therein that same area.
It is yeah, and so arguably itwas part of the colonial history
of that neighborhood in thecity of Vancouver at the time.
The people of the Squamishpeoples get pushed off their
land at Sanok they end up on theNorth Shore, and so the
schoolhouse took the exact samejourney by barge and 112 years

(01:12:54):
later it went on a barge atKitts Beach, went around English
Bay under the Lionsgate Bridgeand we delivered it to the
nation.
So when you drive right overthe Lionsgate Bridge, on the
right-hand side it's now amaroon building.
You can't miss it, and that'sone of the schoolhouses that we
worked on with the nation.

Speaker 1 (01:13:11):
That's a great story.
Yeah, nice, all right, glenn.
Well, this has been awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:13:17):
How do people get hold of you?
Yeah, so our website isrenewaldevelopmentca.
It's probably the easiest wayfor people to find us, and I
think we're pretty active onInstagram too, which I think is
renewal underscore development.

Speaker 1 (01:13:27):
Cool, yeah, all right .
Well, this has been awesome.
Thanks very much for spendingtime with me.

Speaker 2 (01:13:31):
We appreciate you having me, james, it was a good
conversation.

Speaker 1 (01:13:34):
Right on, Thanks.
Well, that does it for anotherepisode of the Site Visit.
Thank you for listening.
Be sure to stay connected withus by following our social
accounts on Instagram andYouTube.
You can also sign up for ourmonthly newsletter at
sitemaxsystemscom slash the sitevisit, where you'll get

(01:13:56):
industry insights, pro tips andeverything you need to know
about the Site Visit podcast andSitemax, the job site and
construction management tool ofchoice for thousands of
contractors in North America andbeyond.
Sitemax is also the engine thatpowers this podcast.
All right, let's get back tobuilding.

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