March 16, 2025 • 29 mins
Angela Fowler, a totally blind accessibility consultant from California, transforms our understanding of digital inclusion in this compelling conversation that challenges common misconceptions while offering practical solutions.
The eye-opening discussion begins with Angela sharing her evolution from passionate disability rights advocate to dedicated educator. This transition occurred when she realized that most designers, developers, and business leaders aren't deliberately creating inaccessible experiences—they simply lack awareness about accessibility needs and benefits. Her realization highlights a critical messaging problem in society: we're not educating people effectively about why accessibility matters and how to implement it properly.
Angela brilliantly dismantles two harmful myths about accessibility. First, she explains that accessibility isn't just for "those disabled people over there" but creates better experiences for everyone. From clearly labeled buttons that help all users navigate websites to wider store aisles and quieter restaurants that enhance everyone's experience, accessibility features have universal benefits. Second, she challenges the notion that accessibility is prohibitively expensive, advocating instead for a harm reduction approach that prioritizes fixing critical barriers first while gradually implementing other improvements.
For businesses and website owners, Angela offers invaluable practical advice: WordPress provides more accessible options than drag-and-drop builders; hiring developers who prioritize accessible user experiences saves money in the long run; and taking small, consistent steps toward accessibility demonstrates good faith efforts that can provide both practical and legal benefits. She also shares thoughtful guidance on interacting respectfully with disabled people—ask if help is needed rather than assuming, respect autonomy, and remember that disability is just one aspect of a person's identity.
Looking toward the future, Angela envisions a cultural shift away from models that emphasize dependency toward an approach that celebrates unique capabilities and contributions. Ready to make your digital presence more accessible? Visit RealLifeAccess.com to connect with Angela and start your accessibility journey today.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The SJ Childs Show is Backford's 13th season.
Join Sarah Bradford and the SJChilds Show team as they explore
the world of autism and sharestories of hope and inspiration.
This season we're excited tobring you more autism summits
featuring experts and advocatesfrom around the world.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Go to sjchildsorg hey everyone.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
I wanted to take a second to talk to you about the
International Autism Summitcoming up in April April 25th
and 26th.
It's going to be streaming freefrom all of my channels.
If you haven't already gone tofollow me, go to sgchildsorg.
Click on any of the socialmedia icons and go follow me so
that you can be with us at theInternational Autism Summit 2025
(01:03):
, April 25th and 26th.
Can't wait to see you then.
Hi, thanks for joining the SGChild Show today.
We're going to have a wonderfulconversation.
It's already started out sonice to get to know Angela, for
you know two minutes, so I'mexcited to dive a little deeper
(01:27):
and get to know you so much more.
Thank you for your time today.
Thank you for the work you do,and we'll get to that in here in
a minute, but before that,let's have you introduce
yourself and tell us a littlebit about yourself.
Speaker 4 (01:43):
Well, hello and greetings from Southern, from
sunny California.
Not Southern California,certainly not Southern
California, but sunny California, even though it is threatening
to rain today.
But yeah, I'm Angela Fowler,I'm an accessibility consultant
and, fun fact, I'm also totallyblind.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Wow, and I love that we are being able to meet like
this and have this conversationso that you can share your
amazing work and really help ourlisteners understand the
importance of what you're doing.
So tell us your kind ofbackstory what brought you to
(02:32):
this point?
Speaker 4 (02:33):
Well, and it truly does come down to a lack of
understanding in terms of whythe general public does not
embrace accessibility.
People just don't understandthe importance.
But I didn't always realizethat.
I spent a lot of time in theadvocacy movement and you know
(02:58):
people with disabilities have,you know, professional
organizations just like everyother group does, and the
disability organizations oftentake the attitude of civil
rights organizations.
So we can get in our own echochambers and you know
frustrations build and you knowother perspectives aren't taken
(03:18):
and we can get very antitheticaltoward um, uh, toward others,
um, very, very um.
We develop an us against themattitude.
It's typical of communitiesthat have a common challenge and
that form their own echochambers.
Um, on one hand it's a goodthing because we can all relate
(03:42):
to each other, and on the otherhand, sometimes we let it get a
little out of control.
So I spent some time in that, alot of time in that environment
, and so when I would comeacross something that didn't
work properly, so the way blindpeople navigate, I mean let me
take a step back and get intothat before I go any further so
I can give a little context.
(04:04):
We use screen readers, and whata screen reader is is.
It's a piece of software thatquite literally reads the screen
and in order for it to workproperly, things have to be
built properly.
So labels have to be there andbe understandable.
(04:25):
Links have to be labeled, andbuttons and things have to be
labeled according to theirpurpose.
Images have to be described,the form fields need to be
labeled and if you're going touse really fancy pants, things
like you know, like accordionsand things like that they need
to be coded so that, a they'reaccessible via the keyboard and,
(04:47):
b they work with screen readers.
Screen readers actually knowwhat the heck they are.
Excuse me, so you know andthat's something you know what I
just said there is going to benews to the overwhelming
(05:08):
majority of your audience.
We have a messaging problem.
Right, we're not out thereeducating people as much as we
should be.
But when I was younger, I'd getreally frustrated and I'd think
(05:30):
you know what are you doing.
Why are you not doing thesethings that are so simple that
would allow me to have equalaccess?
Yeah, but my perspective waschanged when I started actually
working with designers anddevelopers.
Right, I saw people withvarying degrees of knowledge
about accessibility, but who allwanted to do the right thing.
(05:51):
They just didn't know what theright thing was.
So I went from this firebrandadvocate to, I guess you'd say a
firebrand educator advocate to,I guess you'd say a firebrand
educator.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
That's so important, and is that what started the?
Speaker 4 (06:18):
website and the continuing education for the
communities.
Yeah, I realized that ifdesigners and developers don't
know what the right thing is,what about business people?
You know how do you talk tobusiness people who don't know
what a screen reader is, letalone the benefits to businesses
of investing in accessibility.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
Absolutely, and you know there's so many types of
accessibility that need to beavailable, types of
accessibility that need to beavailable and, just like you
said, we don't know until we do,sometimes even that we need it
or that we it should be in place.
What types of misconceptionsare there from the general
(07:04):
public, from businesses that yousee, that you know we can kind
of shed some light on?
Speaker 4 (07:12):
Well, I think there's two that are, you know, that
are prevalent and that arereally, really harmful.
The first is that accessibilityis just for those disabled
people over there.
You know, we got to make thewebsite accessible to help the
poor disabled people.
And that's not whataccessibility is really, Though
it certainly does give peoplewith disabilities equal access
(07:37):
to things.
It certainly does allow us touse your products and services
just like everybody else does.
The things that you do to makeyour website accessible to
people with disabilities alsomake them more user-friendly for
everybody.
I talked about labeling.
You know a lot of people don'tunderstand iconese.
A lot of people benefit fromhaving the word there.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (08:04):
You know form labels, the ability to click on the
label and have a focus and beable to type into your form
field.
You know that helps a lot ofjust regular old people.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (08:19):
Not having store aisles that narrow helps a lot
of revenue.
I had my hands like six inchesapart, Not having aisles that
narrow.
It sure seems that way, doesn'tit?
Speaker 3 (08:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (08:37):
You know, not being on the laps of the people
sitting at the table next to youin a restaurant.
Yeah, you, you know, wouldn't,wouldn't, you, aren't, aren't,
are you?
Aren't you more likely to go toa restaurant where you got room
to breathe?
Yeah, a little bit of privacyyeah, yeah, you can actually
(08:58):
have a conversation without thepeople you know next to you, you
know exactly if we wanted that,we would go to a busy sports
bar possibly well, that bringsme to the topic of loud media.
Yeah, oh, man, you know I go tothe bar and they say, oh, the
(09:22):
band will be playing in 30minutes.
I say thanks for the warning.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Give you a heads up on that.
Speaker 4 (09:29):
Give me a heads up, let me know.
Let me know what's coming, so Ican get the heck out of there.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 4 (09:37):
You know, more people have stated I'm not going back
to this restaurant because ofloud music than because of poor
service, and that's anaccessibility thing.
You know people that are hardof hearing.
If you wear hearing aids, ifyou go to a restaurant and want
(10:00):
to actually have a conversationwith somebody, you would rather
the music not even be on.
It's just amplified.
Huh, we're willing tocompromise at a very low
background level.
But the second misconceptionabout accessibility is that
accessibility is too expensive.
I say, oh, if we start doingaccessibility, we're going to
(10:26):
have to redesign everything.
We're going to have to bulldozeour building and rebuild it and
no.
Most accessibility fixes costlittle to nothing and for the
things that are more expensive,so you do have to have somebody
come in and fix some of thecomponents on your website so
(10:47):
they're actually keyboardaccessible.
I like to take a harm reductionapproach.
I like to say okay, what arethe actual blockers here?
What are the actual things thatare keeping people from using
your site, as opposed to thethings that are just annoying?
So we'll tackle the actualblockers first.
Also, if there's things that wecan tackle easily and for free,
(11:12):
that significantly improve theuser experience or low cost,
we'll do that too.
So you know, the blockers andthe easy wins are what we go for
first, and the rest of it canbe taken care of.
You know, over time and again,if you can afford to just fix
your whole website, that's great, you know.
(11:36):
But you know, as far as I'mconcerned, if you're making
progress especially smallbusinesses right.
If you're making progress,especially small businesses
right.
If you're making progress, ifyou can demonstrate that you're
making progress, not only doesthat stand you in much better
stead in the court of publicopinion, but legally you're
protected too for the most part.
(11:58):
You know I can't saydefinitively this is legal stuff
we're talking about, but forall intents and purposes you
know I can't say definitivelythis is legal stuff we're
talking about, but for the forall, for all intents and
purposes, and you know we shouldbe, and I hope that maybe,
after listening to this, peoplecan get some better ideas.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
We should be for those of you who don't have a
website yet setting things upahead of time, preparing and
getting things set upaccordingly, so that you aren't
having to go and change thingsand you're doing it from the
start, Just as I think that weneed to do the same with
buildings.
Speaker 4 (12:35):
Absolutely it costs you the money.
Absolutely so it takes.
It costs you just as much moneyto build an accessible website
as it does to build aninaccessible website.
So let me go through this.
If you're a do-it-yourselfer, Irecommend using WordPress.
Avoid the drag-and-dropbuilders like Wix.
(13:00):
Avoid those.
The advantage of WordPress isyou can pick accessible themes
and plugins and if you make amistake, it's a hell of a lot
easier to fix it.
If you're going to hire a webdeveloper, make sure that they
(13:21):
prioritize accessibility.
You know some developers oh,we'll build you a good-looking
website, okay, but nobody canfind anything.
You know.
Make sure that they build foruser experience first.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (13:43):
And accessible user experience first.
Yeah, and accessible userexperience first.
And also, once it's built, takea spin through your own website
, you know.
Make sure that it makes senseto you.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
And that's something that you do for companies is
that you go in and take a lookat their website and help break
those things down so that theycan create better accessibility
experiences.
Speaker 4 (14:07):
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, and I don't just say,oh, you're doing this and this
and this wrong.
I point out the errors and Ipoint you to resources that tell
you how to fix them.
And I point you to resourcesthat tell you how to fix them.
You know, we do have a done foryou option, but you know, we'd
(14:32):
rather, we'd rather teach you,I'd rather do it with you, I'd
rather teach you how to makeyour website accessible, because
if I do that, you won't breakit and inadvertently, next time
you update it isn't that thetruth?
yeah you know, but teach you tofish that's.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
You know, that's the saying.
What can we do, just kind of,as community members in our own
communities?
How can we start to be, youknow, better perceiving or
understanding how to help themembers of our own community?
Hmm?
Speaker 4 (15:14):
you mean, like if you run into someone with a
disability.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
Yeah, yeah, just in general.
What do?
What do you think is is goodfor advice for people?
Speaker 4 (15:24):
The biggest mistake that a lot of people make is
they assume that someone with adisability needs help.
So say, you see someone with adisability out in the community.
They're trying to find theentrance to a store, for example
.
And you know, if you're blind,it might take you a little bit
longer to find that entrancebecause you can't.
You know if, if you're blind,it might take you a little bit
longer to find that entrancebecause you can't.
(15:45):
You know, you.
You have to actually exploreone way and then explore the
other and and find it.
You can't.
You can't if you can't see it.
Um, but a lot of people assumethat that means we need help.
In fact, it might just mean weguessed wrong.
So you know, just ask.
You know, and sometimes peoplehave assumed that I've been
(16:08):
going somewhere, that I actuallywasn't going.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
You're not assume.
Speaker 4 (16:15):
We all know what it means to assume right, that's
for sure.
And a lot of people, because wedo things differently, a lot of
people assume that we're not ascapable as we actually are.
So you know, let's take thelead, ask if we need help, be
(16:36):
okay with the answer.
Don't be offended if we rejectthe help.
Really, yeah, your ego shouldnot depend on whether a blind
person accepts your help or not,but unfortunately, a lot of
people do.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
That's interesting.
Speaker 4 (16:52):
It's incredible really.
And you know, if we need helpsay, for example, you want to
help us get from one place toanother you know, don't be what
I call a grabby draggy.
Oh yeah, you know, don't dothat.
(17:13):
That was okay when my son was atoddler, when he didn't have
the words to like tell me whathe wanted.
But you know, once people getto about age five, they usually
grow out of that behavior yeahum, you know, assume competence
(17:35):
unless proven otherwise.
Um, and see us as more than ourdisability.
You know, I'm a sports fan.
I like to argue about sports.
I'm interested in currentevents.
(17:57):
I don't necessarily like toargue about those, because most
people are crazy.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
I won't argue with that.
Speaker 4 (18:10):
You know him and I go back and forth all the time.
It's fun, but you know I liketo barbecue Like a little true
crime.
There's so many things that areessential to who I am.
(18:30):
I got a wicked sense of humor,that's for sure.
I'm not outspoken at all, I'm aquiet little church mouse.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
That's what you've been told your whole life?
Speaker 4 (18:41):
I'm sure, yeah, that's what you've been told
your whole life, I'm sure.
Um you know, uh there, there isso much more to us than just
our disability.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
Yeah, yeah, and, and how has that been?
You know, I'm sure times havechanged.
Just as you know, our wholefamily is autistic and ADHD and
so much has changed in thedecade or two decades of our,
you know, in the community, withtheir understanding, with a
(19:16):
little bit more education.
And there's still so much workto go, isn't there?
But you can appreciate theappreciate the changes over time
.
How would you say now, you know, in 2025, how are we looking
now as far as being moregraceful, more understanding, a
(19:39):
little bit more human, you know,dig, a little bit more dignity
towards everyone?
Are we headed in the right?
Speaker 4 (19:46):
direction.
I think it varies from place toplace.
I think COVID robbed us of whatlittle social graces we all had
.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:56):
Um, so we're still.
We're still trying to recoverfrom that.
It really does vary from placeto place and situation to
situation.
You know, the one change thatI've seen has really been in
(20:16):
myself.
I try not to get and I still do.
I'm human, but I try not to getas frustrated by the weirdness
of people on the street.
I try to just laugh it off.
You know people freak out whenthey see a long white cane come
(20:38):
as if it was a rattlesnake.
The weird questions you get,you know like wow, but you know,
you really you really got tojust laugh it off because you
can't, you can't affect you,can't let it affect your.
You know the way you relate tothe next person.
Yeah, sometimes you just got togo home, have a couple of beers
(21:01):
and be like you know what I'mdone with people for a while,
let it go.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
Yep, I hear that and sometimes it's family.
You know that's too funny.
What can we do globally?
How can we scale this?
What do we need to look?
(21:25):
How do we need to look at thison a global scale?
Speaker 4 (21:32):
I can only speak for people with disabilities.
We need to become lessdependent on government and more
dependent on ourselves, andhere's why and I'm talking
collectively, okay thisperceived incapability, this
(21:56):
perceived need for charity, alot of it stems from the fact
that we are associated with theneed for government assistance
and when you're doing, you'redependent on something or
somebody.
That thing has, or person has,power over you.
So if we, as people withdisabilities, want to claim our
(22:18):
power, we need to, we need this,and I'm not saying everybody.
You know there's still going tobe times when we need the
government, but you know we needa hand out, a hand up rather.
But overall, we need to breakfree of that control and it's
(22:43):
going to take a cultural shift.
Yeah, Globally you know, we theshift needs to be and again,
(23:10):
this is a cultural shift itneeds to be away from the, the
model of oh, we need to help thedisabled people and more toward
a model of let's appreciateeverybody for their unique gifts
and talents.
You know, let's focus on whatpeople can do, not what people
(23:30):
can't do, and DEI has reallyhurt us.
Dei has really hurt us.
Hire me, accept me, promote mebecause I'm awesome.
Don't do it because I'm blind.
Right?
Yeah the wrong message is takenaway from that?
Speaker 3 (23:55):
yep, yep, I do agree.
I agree with that and I likewhat you said about you know
it'll be a cultural shift and itmay take who knows how long
generation to do so.
Yeah, and it's all about whatwe now are teaching our younger
generations and how to shift andhow to shape the future.
(24:19):
For accessibility,accommodating, but independence,
you know, having both sides ofthat.
How can we create thisindependence with whatever?
You know, accommodating as ahuman factor rather than as a
(24:42):
need for you know, like you said, a a care to type of type of
way.
So, yeah, and of course, it'sindividual to to everyone,
literally individually.
So that has to be taken, youknow, into account, for sure, um
(25:03):
, but you know it's your ownlived experience and I
appreciate you sharing that withus and sharing those
vulnerabilities and helping usunderstand how we can, um, move
forward today, tomorrow, with adifferent mindset.
And maybe some actionable taskswe can do to take away?
(25:26):
Yep, definitely.
Some actionable tasks we can doto take away?
Speaker 4 (25:28):
yep, definitely well, thank you for giving me the
opportunity to come on here andshare my experience and rant and
rave a little bit and it's beengreat.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
I'm really I appreciate it and I'd love to
get together and just chatsometime and and have a good
laugh and talk about some Tripsto Bucks Lake or something.
It's been so nice.
And you know, I'm putting upyour website right now
(26:01):
Reallifeaccesscom.
Yep, that's where you can go toSee what Angela is working on
to make.
I went and support all mywonderful guests, so I
(26:31):
appreciate that so much.
It's been such a pleasure toget to know you today.
It's been super fun.
Yeah, yeah, you have a greatpersonality and I really just I
think you're, you're doingeverything right, you know doing
everything the way you'resupposed to be doing it and it
(26:51):
just it comes across and it's soauthentic, it's so really.
I want people to go and, um,you know, look at your websites,
check them out, make sure thatyou're being accessible.
Uh, I'm going to double checkmine.
Maybe I, you know, am Iaccessible now?
I need to.
Now.
I need to know.
Hopefully, hopefully, that isthe case, but maybe I'll have to
(27:15):
.
Speaker 4 (27:15):
Well, and if you ever want somebody to take a quick
look at your website, just fillout that contact form on my site
and we can.
We can set up a meeting and wecan figure out where to go from
there.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
I love it.
Thank you so much.
I look forward to staying intouch and, yeah, some great
conversations to come.
All right, sounds good.
Talk to you soon.
Speaker 4 (27:41):
All right, you too.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
In the heart of the city.
She's shining bright.
Oh yeah, stories of love andcourage all throughout the night
, her voice resonating an anthemfor all.
Through the trials and thetrials, she answers the call.
A mother and a fighter,breaking barriers and strife.
(28:17):
Love is her guide.
She'll never hide.
She's changing the world foryou With her heart and speaks in
strong empathy.
It's a melody in our journey weall belong.
Followers gather like stars inthe night.
(28:37):
So bright, 44,000 voicessharing in the light.
She stands for family advocatesfor more movement of compassion
, ways we'll soar, thank you.
It's fierce and strong and bothleaves a melody In a journey we
all belong.
Through her eyes, a visionclear.
(29:12):
Together we ride, Sheddingfears.
In every heart, she plants theseed of understanding and love
for dearly me.
It's changing the world for youWith a heart that's fierce and
(29:40):
strong.
Empathies and melodies In ajourney we all belong.
The SJ Childs Show is Backford's 13th season.
Join Sarah Bradford and the SJChilds Show team as they explore
the world of autism and sharestories of hope and inspiration.
This season we're excited tobring you more autism summits
featuring experts and advocatesfrom around the world.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Go to sjchildsorg hey everyone.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
I wanted to take a second to talk to you about the
International Autism Summitcoming up in April April 25th
and 26th.
It's going to be streaming freefrom all of my channels.
If you haven't already gone tofollow me, go to sgchildsorg.
Click on any of the socialmedia icons and go follow me so
that you can be with us at theInternational Autism Summit 2025
(01:03):
, April 25th and 26th.
Can't wait to see you then.
Hi, thanks for joining the SGChild Show today.
We're going to have a wonderfulconversation.
It's already started out sonice to get to know Angela, for
you know two minutes, so I'mexcited to dive a little deeper
(01:27):
and get to know you so much more.
Thank you for your time today.
Thank you for the work you do,and we'll get to that in here in
a minute, but before that,let's have you introduce
yourself and tell us a littlebit about yourself.
Speaker 4 (01:43):
Well, hello and greetings from Southern, from
sunny California.
Not Southern California,certainly not Southern
California, but sunny California, even though it is threatening
to rain today.
But yeah, I'm Angela Fowler,I'm an accessibility consultant
and, fun fact, I'm also totallyblind.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Wow, and I love that we are being able to meet like
this and have this conversationso that you can share your
amazing work and really help ourlisteners understand the
importance of what you're doing.
So tell us your kind ofbackstory what brought you to
(02:32):
this point?
Speaker 4 (02:33):
Well, and it truly does come down to a lack of
understanding in terms of whythe general public does not
embrace accessibility.
People just don't understandthe importance.
But I didn't always realizethat.
I spent a lot of time in theadvocacy movement and you know
(02:58):
people with disabilities have,you know, professional
organizations just like everyother group does, and the
disability organizations oftentake the attitude of civil
rights organizations.
So we can get in our own echochambers and you know
frustrations build and you knowother perspectives aren't taken
(03:18):
and we can get very antitheticaltoward um, uh, toward others,
um, very, very um.
We develop an us against themattitude.
It's typical of communitiesthat have a common challenge and
that form their own echochambers.
Um, on one hand it's a goodthing because we can all relate
(03:42):
to each other, and on the otherhand, sometimes we let it get a
little out of control.
So I spent some time in that, alot of time in that environment
, and so when I would comeacross something that didn't
work properly, so the way blindpeople navigate, I mean let me
take a step back and get intothat before I go any further so
I can give a little context.
(04:04):
We use screen readers, and whata screen reader is is.
It's a piece of software thatquite literally reads the screen
and in order for it to workproperly, things have to be
built properly.
So labels have to be there andbe understandable.
(04:25):
Links have to be labeled, andbuttons and things have to be
labeled according to theirpurpose.
Images have to be described,the form fields need to be
labeled and if you're going touse really fancy pants, things
like you know, like accordionsand things like that they need
to be coded so that, a they'reaccessible via the keyboard and,
(04:47):
b they work with screen readers.
Screen readers actually knowwhat the heck they are.
Excuse me, so you know andthat's something you know what I
just said there is going to benews to the overwhelming
(05:08):
majority of your audience.
We have a messaging problem.
Right, we're not out thereeducating people as much as we
should be.
But when I was younger, I'd getreally frustrated and I'd think
(05:30):
you know what are you doing.
Why are you not doing thesethings that are so simple that
would allow me to have equalaccess?
Yeah, but my perspective waschanged when I started actually
working with designers anddevelopers.
Right, I saw people withvarying degrees of knowledge
about accessibility, but who allwanted to do the right thing.
(05:51):
They just didn't know what theright thing was.
So I went from this firebrandadvocate to, I guess you'd say a
firebrand educator advocate to,I guess you'd say a firebrand
educator.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
That's so important, and is that what started the?
Speaker 4 (06:18):
website and the continuing education for the
communities.
Yeah, I realized that ifdesigners and developers don't
know what the right thing is,what about business people?
You know how do you talk tobusiness people who don't know
what a screen reader is, letalone the benefits to businesses
of investing in accessibility.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
Absolutely, and you know there's so many types of
accessibility that need to beavailable, types of
accessibility that need to beavailable and, just like you
said, we don't know until we do,sometimes even that we need it
or that we it should be in place.
What types of misconceptionsare there from the general
(07:04):
public, from businesses that yousee, that you know we can kind
of shed some light on?
Speaker 4 (07:12):
Well, I think there's two that are, you know, that
are prevalent and that arereally, really harmful.
The first is that accessibilityis just for those disabled
people over there.
You know, we got to make thewebsite accessible to help the
poor disabled people.
And that's not whataccessibility is really, Though
it certainly does give peoplewith disabilities equal access
(07:37):
to things.
It certainly does allow us touse your products and services
just like everybody else does.
The things that you do to makeyour website accessible to
people with disabilities alsomake them more user-friendly for
everybody.
I talked about labeling.
You know a lot of people don'tunderstand iconese.
A lot of people benefit fromhaving the word there.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (08:04):
You know form labels, the ability to click on the
label and have a focus and beable to type into your form
field.
You know that helps a lot ofjust regular old people.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (08:19):
Not having store aisles that narrow helps a lot
of revenue.
I had my hands like six inchesapart, Not having aisles that
narrow.
It sure seems that way, doesn'tit?
Speaker 3 (08:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (08:37):
You know, not being on the laps of the people
sitting at the table next to youin a restaurant.
Yeah, you, you know, wouldn't,wouldn't, you, aren't, aren't,
are you?
Aren't you more likely to go toa restaurant where you got room
to breathe?
Yeah, a little bit of privacyyeah, yeah, you can actually
(08:58):
have a conversation without thepeople you know next to you, you
know exactly if we wanted that,we would go to a busy sports
bar possibly well, that bringsme to the topic of loud media.
Yeah, oh, man, you know I go tothe bar and they say, oh, the
(09:22):
band will be playing in 30minutes.
I say thanks for the warning.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Give you a heads up on that.
Speaker 4 (09:29):
Give me a heads up, let me know.
Let me know what's coming, so Ican get the heck out of there.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 4 (09:37):
You know, more people have stated I'm not going back
to this restaurant because ofloud music than because of poor
service, and that's anaccessibility thing.
You know people that are hardof hearing.
If you wear hearing aids, ifyou go to a restaurant and want
(10:00):
to actually have a conversationwith somebody, you would rather
the music not even be on.
It's just amplified.
Huh, we're willing tocompromise at a very low
background level.
But the second misconceptionabout accessibility is that
accessibility is too expensive.
I say, oh, if we start doingaccessibility, we're going to
(10:26):
have to redesign everything.
We're going to have to bulldozeour building and rebuild it and
no.
Most accessibility fixes costlittle to nothing and for the
things that are more expensive,so you do have to have somebody
come in and fix some of thecomponents on your website so
(10:47):
they're actually keyboardaccessible.
I like to take a harm reductionapproach.
I like to say okay, what arethe actual blockers here?
What are the actual things thatare keeping people from using
your site, as opposed to thethings that are just annoying?
So we'll tackle the actualblockers first.
Also, if there's things that wecan tackle easily and for free,
(11:12):
that significantly improve theuser experience or low cost,
we'll do that too.
So you know, the blockers andthe easy wins are what we go for
first, and the rest of it canbe taken care of.
You know, over time and again,if you can afford to just fix
your whole website, that's great, you know.
(11:36):
But you know, as far as I'mconcerned, if you're making
progress especially smallbusinesses right.
If you're making progress,especially small businesses
right.
If you're making progress, ifyou can demonstrate that you're
making progress, not only doesthat stand you in much better
stead in the court of publicopinion, but legally you're
protected too for the most part.
(11:58):
You know I can't saydefinitively this is legal stuff
we're talking about, but forall intents and purposes you
know I can't say definitivelythis is legal stuff we're
talking about, but for the forall, for all intents and
purposes, and you know we shouldbe, and I hope that maybe,
after listening to this, peoplecan get some better ideas.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
We should be for those of you who don't have a
website yet setting things upahead of time, preparing and
getting things set upaccordingly, so that you aren't
having to go and change thingsand you're doing it from the
start, Just as I think that weneed to do the same with
buildings.
Speaker 4 (12:35):
Absolutely it costs you the money.
Absolutely so it takes.
It costs you just as much moneyto build an accessible website
as it does to build aninaccessible website.
So let me go through this.
If you're a do-it-yourselfer, Irecommend using WordPress.
Avoid the drag-and-dropbuilders like Wix.
(13:00):
Avoid those.
The advantage of WordPress isyou can pick accessible themes
and plugins and if you make amistake, it's a hell of a lot
easier to fix it.
If you're going to hire a webdeveloper, make sure that they
(13:21):
prioritize accessibility.
You know some developers oh,we'll build you a good-looking
website, okay, but nobody canfind anything.
You know.
Make sure that they build foruser experience first.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (13:43):
And accessible user experience first.
Yeah, and accessible userexperience first.
And also, once it's built, takea spin through your own website
, you know.
Make sure that it makes senseto you.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
And that's something that you do for companies is
that you go in and take a lookat their website and help break
those things down so that theycan create better accessibility
experiences.
Speaker 4 (14:07):
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, and I don't just say,oh, you're doing this and this
and this wrong.
I point out the errors and Ipoint you to resources that tell
you how to fix them.
And I point you to resourcesthat tell you how to fix them.
You know, we do have a done foryou option, but you know, we'd
(14:32):
rather, we'd rather teach you,I'd rather do it with you, I'd
rather teach you how to makeyour website accessible, because
if I do that, you won't breakit and inadvertently, next time
you update it isn't that thetruth?
yeah you know, but teach you tofish that's.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
You know, that's the saying.
What can we do, just kind of,as community members in our own
communities?
How can we start to be, youknow, better perceiving or
understanding how to help themembers of our own community?
Hmm?
Speaker 4 (15:14):
you mean, like if you run into someone with a
disability.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
Yeah, yeah, just in general.
What do?
What do you think is is goodfor advice for people?
Speaker 4 (15:24):
The biggest mistake that a lot of people make is
they assume that someone with adisability needs help.
So say, you see someone with adisability out in the community.
They're trying to find theentrance to a store, for example
.
And you know, if you're blind,it might take you a little bit
longer to find that entrancebecause you can't.
You know if, if you're blind,it might take you a little bit
longer to find that entrancebecause you can't.
(15:45):
You know, you.
You have to actually exploreone way and then explore the
other and and find it.
You can't.
You can't if you can't see it.
Um, but a lot of people assumethat that means we need help.
In fact, it might just mean weguessed wrong.
So you know, just ask.
You know, and sometimes peoplehave assumed that I've been
(16:08):
going somewhere, that I actuallywasn't going.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
You're not assume.
Speaker 4 (16:15):
We all know what it means to assume right, that's
for sure.
And a lot of people, because wedo things differently, a lot of
people assume that we're not ascapable as we actually are.
So you know, let's take thelead, ask if we need help, be
(16:36):
okay with the answer.
Don't be offended if we rejectthe help.
Really, yeah, your ego shouldnot depend on whether a blind
person accepts your help or not,but unfortunately, a lot of
people do.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
That's interesting.
Speaker 4 (16:52):
It's incredible really.
And you know, if we need helpsay, for example, you want to
help us get from one place toanother you know, don't be what
I call a grabby draggy.
Oh yeah, you know, don't dothat.
(17:13):
That was okay when my son was atoddler, when he didn't have
the words to like tell me whathe wanted.
But you know, once people getto about age five, they usually
grow out of that behavior yeahum, you know, assume competence
(17:35):
unless proven otherwise.
Um, and see us as more than ourdisability.
You know, I'm a sports fan.
I like to argue about sports.
I'm interested in currentevents.
(17:57):
I don't necessarily like toargue about those, because most
people are crazy.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
I won't argue with that.
Speaker 4 (18:10):
You know him and I go back and forth all the time.
It's fun, but you know I liketo barbecue Like a little true
crime.
There's so many things that areessential to who I am.
(18:30):
I got a wicked sense of humor,that's for sure.
I'm not outspoken at all, I'm aquiet little church mouse.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
That's what you've been told your whole life?
Speaker 4 (18:41):
I'm sure, yeah, that's what you've been told
your whole life, I'm sure.
Um you know, uh there, there isso much more to us than just
our disability.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
Yeah, yeah, and, and how has that been?
You know, I'm sure times havechanged.
Just as you know, our wholefamily is autistic and ADHD and
so much has changed in thedecade or two decades of our,
you know, in the community, withtheir understanding, with a
(19:16):
little bit more education.
And there's still so much workto go, isn't there?
But you can appreciate theappreciate the changes over time
.
How would you say now, you know, in 2025, how are we looking
now as far as being moregraceful, more understanding, a
(19:39):
little bit more human, you know,dig, a little bit more dignity
towards everyone?
Are we headed in the right?
Speaker 4 (19:46):
direction.
I think it varies from place toplace.
I think COVID robbed us of whatlittle social graces we all had
.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:56):
Um, so we're still.
We're still trying to recoverfrom that.
It really does vary from placeto place and situation to
situation.
You know, the one change thatI've seen has really been in
(20:16):
myself.
I try not to get and I still do.
I'm human, but I try not to getas frustrated by the weirdness
of people on the street.
I try to just laugh it off.
You know people freak out whenthey see a long white cane come
(20:38):
as if it was a rattlesnake.
The weird questions you get,you know like wow, but you know,
you really you really got tojust laugh it off because you
can't, you can't affect you,can't let it affect your.
You know the way you relate tothe next person.
Yeah, sometimes you just got togo home, have a couple of beers
(21:01):
and be like you know what I'mdone with people for a while,
let it go.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
Yep, I hear that and sometimes it's family.
You know that's too funny.
What can we do globally?
How can we scale this?
What do we need to look?
(21:25):
How do we need to look at thison a global scale?
Speaker 4 (21:32):
I can only speak for people with disabilities.
We need to become lessdependent on government and more
dependent on ourselves, andhere's why and I'm talking
collectively, okay thisperceived incapability, this
(21:56):
perceived need for charity, alot of it stems from the fact
that we are associated with theneed for government assistance
and when you're doing, you'redependent on something or
somebody.
That thing has, or person has,power over you.
So if we, as people withdisabilities, want to claim our
(22:18):
power, we need to, we need this,and I'm not saying everybody.
You know there's still going tobe times when we need the
government, but you know we needa hand out, a hand up rather.
But overall, we need to breakfree of that control and it's
(22:43):
going to take a cultural shift.
Yeah, Globally you know, we theshift needs to be and again,
(23:10):
this is a cultural shift itneeds to be away from the, the
model of oh, we need to help thedisabled people and more toward
a model of let's appreciateeverybody for their unique gifts
and talents.
You know, let's focus on whatpeople can do, not what people
(23:30):
can't do, and DEI has reallyhurt us.
Dei has really hurt us.
Hire me, accept me, promote mebecause I'm awesome.
Don't do it because I'm blind.
Right?
Yeah the wrong message is takenaway from that?
Speaker 3 (23:55):
yep, yep, I do agree.
I agree with that and I likewhat you said about you know
it'll be a cultural shift and itmay take who knows how long
generation to do so.
Yeah, and it's all about whatwe now are teaching our younger
generations and how to shift andhow to shape the future.
(24:19):
For accessibility,accommodating, but independence,
you know, having both sides ofthat.
How can we create thisindependence with whatever?
You know, accommodating as ahuman factor rather than as a
(24:42):
need for you know, like you said, a a care to type of type of
way.
So, yeah, and of course, it'sindividual to to everyone,
literally individually.
So that has to be taken, youknow, into account, for sure, um
(25:03):
, but you know it's your ownlived experience and I
appreciate you sharing that withus and sharing those
vulnerabilities and helping usunderstand how we can, um, move
forward today, tomorrow, with adifferent mindset.
And maybe some actionable taskswe can do to take away?
(25:26):
Yep, definitely.
Some actionable tasks we can doto take away?
Speaker 4 (25:28):
yep, definitely well, thank you for giving me the
opportunity to come on here andshare my experience and rant and
rave a little bit and it's beengreat.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
I'm really I appreciate it and I'd love to
get together and just chatsometime and and have a good
laugh and talk about some Tripsto Bucks Lake or something.
It's been so nice.
And you know, I'm putting upyour website right now
(26:01):
Reallifeaccesscom.
Yep, that's where you can go toSee what Angela is working on
to make.
I went and support all mywonderful guests, so I
(26:31):
appreciate that so much.
It's been such a pleasure toget to know you today.
It's been super fun.
Yeah, yeah, you have a greatpersonality and I really just I
think you're, you're doingeverything right, you know doing
everything the way you'resupposed to be doing it and it
(26:51):
just it comes across and it's soauthentic, it's so really.
I want people to go and, um,you know, look at your websites,
check them out, make sure thatyou're being accessible.
Uh, I'm going to double checkmine.
Maybe I, you know, am Iaccessible now?
I need to.
Now.
I need to know.
Hopefully, hopefully, that isthe case, but maybe I'll have to
(27:15):
.
Speaker 4 (27:15):
Well, and if you ever want somebody to take a quick
look at your website, just fillout that contact form on my site
and we can.
We can set up a meeting and wecan figure out where to go from
there.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
I love it.
Thank you so much.
I look forward to staying intouch and, yeah, some great
conversations to come.
All right, sounds good.
Talk to you soon.
Speaker 4 (27:41):
All right, you too.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
In the heart of the city.
She's shining bright.
Oh yeah, stories of love andcourage all throughout the night
, her voice resonating an anthemfor all.
Through the trials and thetrials, she answers the call.
A mother and a fighter,breaking barriers and strife.
(28:17):
Love is her guide.
She'll never hide.
She's changing the world foryou With her heart and speaks in
strong empathy.
It's a melody in our journey weall belong.
Followers gather like stars inthe night.
(28:37):
So bright, 44,000 voicessharing in the light.
She stands for family advocatesfor more movement of compassion
, ways we'll soar, thank you.
It's fierce and strong and bothleaves a melody In a journey we
all belong.
Through her eyes, a visionclear.
(29:12):
Together we ride, Sheddingfears.
In every heart, she plants theseed of understanding and love
for dearly me.
It's changing the world for youWith a heart that's fierce and
(29:40):
strong.
Empathies and melodies In ajourney we all belong.
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