March 31, 2025 • 68 mins
Dr. Gilly Kahn brings a refreshing perspective to our understanding of ADHD, particularly in women, through her dual expertise as both a clinical psychologist and someone with lived experience. Her powerful reframing of ADHD not as an attention deficit but as an "overabundance of attention" challenges conventional thinking about neurodiversity in ways that will resonate deeply with listeners.
What makes this conversation particularly valuable is how Dr. Kahn bridges the gap between clinical knowledge and authentic human experience. She vividly describes the ADHD mind as having "a 1920s Great Gatsby party in your brain while trying to do homework" – an image that perfectly captures the overwhelming sensory and cognitive experience many with ADHD navigate daily. This isn't just theoretical understanding; it's rooted in compassion and lived reality.
The discussion takes us through several critical topics: misconceptions about ADHD (particularly how hyperfocus on interesting activities doesn't disprove ADHD), the science behind medication options (including fascinating research on neuropromotion), and how neurodivergent brains process information differently as "field-dependent learners." Throughout, Dr. Kahn maintains a balanced approach, acknowledging that while research strongly supports certain interventions, treatment choices remain deeply personal.
Perhaps most powerfully, Dr. Kahn shares insights from her upcoming book "Allow Me to Interrupt," which launches September 9th. The Shakespeare-inspired work promises to illuminate the emotional realities of women with ADHD in ways that both validate their experiences and educate others. Her parting advice resonates as both scientific conclusion and profound wisdom: "They don't know you as well as you know yourself." For anyone navigating neurodiversity – whether personally or supporting others – this conversation offers both practical understanding and the courage to trust your own experience despite external judgment or misunderstanding.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The SJ Childs Show is Backford's 13th season.
Join Sarah Brafford and the SJChilds Show team as they explore
the world of autism and sharestories of hope and inspiration.
This season we're excited tobring you more autism summits
featuring experts and advocatesfrom around the world.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Go to sjchildsorg hey everyone.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
I wanted to take a second to talk to you about the
International Autism Summitcoming up in April April 25th
and 26th.
It's going to be streaming freefrom all of my channels.
If you haven't already gone tofollow me, go to sgchildsorg.
Click on any of the socialmedia icons and go follow me so
(00:58):
that you can be with us at theInternational Autism Summit 2025
, april 25th and 26th.
Can't wait to see you then.
Hello and thank you for joiningthe SJ Child Show today.
I am really excited I knowthose are my first words of
(01:19):
every single show.
I'm really excited to have thisconversation today, but I
really have been waiting.
We had something set up and itdidn't work out for lots of
schedules.
Life, life, life isn't that thecase, but we met on the Mental
Health Network I think that'swhat it's called podcast, with
(01:42):
Adam Duvall.
He's out of the UK and he haslike a panel podcast.
That's really interesting andthey have great discussions and
that's I'm pretty sure that'sthe first time that I met you is
that we were on a paneltogether.
And for those of you listeningand not watching, today I am
(02:02):
sitting down with Dr Gilly Khan.
I hope I pronounced everythingcorrectly.
Please let me know if I didn't.
Speaker 4 (02:12):
So let me, can I tell you, just in case you want to
know.
So the pot, the podcast, andthe reason I'm bringing it up is
because I'm doing like parttime paneling for the podcast
now.
So if they see me on this andthey're like why didn't you
correct her, I don't want themto be mad.
So it's called Health WarriorsPodcast.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
Yes, thank you.
Yes, and it has like a hand orsomething as its logo, a hand
print, I guess you could say.
And they really do greatdiscussions and cover a wide
variety and have some greatexperts and guests on the show
to discuss a variety of mentalhealth, and here today we are
(02:56):
going to dive deeper into yourwork and getting to know you a
little bit more.
So let's start with anintroduction.
Let us know you know you alittle bit more.
So let's start with anintroduction.
Let us know you know a littlebit about yourself and kind of
what brought you here.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
Yeah, that question is never going to cease to make
me right.
It's only two hours later.
Yeah, no, yeah.
So I'm Dr Gilly Kahn.
I'm a clinical psychologist, amom and a writer and now newly
an author of a book, and Ipractice in Atlanta, georgia,
(03:31):
but I also see people around theUnited States and some other
states via telehealth.
My work specializes inneurodiversity and emotional
dysregulation and specificpopulation.
Like most of the people I workwith are teens and their
families, and I love writing.
(03:54):
I love reading anything withinthe area of psychology.
It's totally my specialinterest and I have two little
ones and, yeah, I'm happy to behere.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Yay, it's so nice to have you too, and what a great
discussion, because there's justso many facets that we can
touch on parenting and theservices you provide, the book,
which I'm really excited to get,one for myself, number one and
also, you know, really divedeeper into what you know drove
(04:35):
you to do that.
What was the I have to do this?
I'm going to get it done.
So let's start with your familyand how that's been supporting
you in your work, that you'redoing in your journey, and what
does that look like raising twokids and being a psychologist.
Speaker 4 (04:57):
Yeah, I mean it has definitely been all over the
place, I know as it would be for, like any adult with ADHD, but
especially, you know, as a mom.
And you know, before earning myPhD, I also earned a master's
in experimental psychology.
So I was in school for a reallylong time and I mean the reason
(05:19):
for that is because, okay, sofor an undergraduate, I majored
in psychology and creativewriting Before college.
I wanted to be a writer, I justwanted to write books.
And as I got closer andapproached college and deciding,
you know, what should I majorin, I felt that, you know,
(05:42):
banking on a writing career wastoo risky and the books I was
reading were, oh, I lovedStephen King, anything with a
psychological twist or bend toit.
And I was taking the AP Psychclass, and so I just decided I
love psychology too, so I'mgoing to start by majoring in
(06:04):
psychology, psychology too.
So I'm going to start bymajoring in psychology.
And I just started with a majorpsychology minor in English lit
.
And then, while I was incollege, I just decided I cannot
live without creative writing.
It's just, you know, woven intomy very being, and so I just
added it as a.
So I bumped up the English litminor to a creative writing
(06:25):
major, so I majored in both.
But you know, psychology is, ifyou want to be a psychologist
you can.
You know you can get become atherapist, like a mental health
counselor, or you can becomelike a social worker and get a
master's worker and get amaster's.
(06:48):
But I really I wanted to committo kind of making it till the
end and getting a PhD inclinical psychology.
And I think one thing aboutpeople who are neurodivergent,
people with ADHD, is like, oncethey make a decision, I think
especially women we are.
You know and I talk about thisin the book we're stubborn.
You finished the sentence.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
Right, right, exactly no, there's no stopping us, and
I couldn't agree more yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:13):
Yeah, so I just I set that goal, I made that decision
.
It was rigid and so I appliedthe first time around.
But you know, it wasperfectionistic and I only
applied to the best programsthat only accepted one student
or five students everyapplication cycle.
So I didn't get in and so atthat point I had to take a
(07:37):
detour and I decided I would doa master's in experimental
psychology, beef up my CD andthen try again.
And so I did that and it was agreat experience and I learned a
lot.
I did a lot of research and Ithink one thing you learn as you
kind of move forwardprofessionally is that you know
(08:01):
you make the most of yourexperiences, and I'm sorry to
sound cliche, but sometimesthings happen for a reason, yeah
, you know, because you meetpeople on your detour who end up
helping you down the line.
So it felt that way to me.
So I did that and then Ireapplied and I got in.
(08:21):
I applied to 15 programs.
I was accepted to one and Iinterviewed it a lot like.
I got a lot of interviews, youknow, and I was very close with
a few of them.
But then it becomes complicated, you know, things are kind of
out of your hands like, oh, thisperson lost funding, or you
(08:41):
know this one, I don't knowanother reason that's kind of
out of your control.
So I ended up at Nova and wasvery happy there and completed
my PhD and ended up extendingbecause I had my daughter, which
was planned, and so everythingjust took a really long time.
(09:02):
So it did require, like a lot, alot of support from my husband
because financially, you know,he was kind of carrying the
family and he still is.
In terms of, like you know,income, financial disparity I
think it's the case in mosthouseholds the male is earning
more than the female.
(09:22):
But, you know, in our case ithas been okay.
And then, especially this year,because for a while I was just,
you know, it was aboutfinishing becoming a
psychologist, starting to work,and for a year or two it was
more stable.
And then, you know, I got to apoint where I said, okay, I'm
(09:43):
ready to, you know, dive into mycreative writing interest and,
you know, accomplish that othergoal that I had, to publish a
book.
And that's going to slow youdown, you know, because you're
spending half your time, youknow, not seeing clients but
basically taking a risk.
It's like if you start abusiness, you know you don't
(10:05):
know if it's going to besuccessful.
You just know that you love itand that you would regret you.
I can't speak.
You would regret it if youdidn't try it.
So yeah, um, that brings me totoday.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
Yeah, I love it.
I love it.
It's so important.
I wouldn't I don't know where Iwould be without my husband's
support, and I think that youand him would get along so well
because he is also like a loverof Stephen King books and he
wrote, you know, he gave me thatgreat quote to tell you the
other day.
He's just a really intuitiveand caring person and so he
(10:43):
really puts a lot of just whathe says is just truth, and I
think that that could either hitpeople really hard and really,
you know, smack them across theface, or it can be so touching
and heartwarming.
And so I guess it's yourperception and how you've been
approached by this truth, but Ithink that it's.
It's so, it's so lovely thatway.
(11:04):
But the support that you know,when we found out I was going to
need to stay home with aprofoundly autistic child, there
was no other really option thanto give up my careers.
And well, I mean, we could have, yes, found options, but we
both want.
I wanted to stay home.
I was already in my thirtiesbefore I had gotten pregnant, so
(11:28):
I was already older and, like,had had career time, if you will
, and I was a research paralegalfor a long time.
So I really appreciate thatelement of being, of knowing how
to do research and reallyunderstanding the importance of
it.
And I think that it's a lot ofpeople you see like, oh, how do
(11:51):
I do this?
And you're like, oh my gosh,just go to the Google search bar
and find an answer, right.
But I think that it's kind oflike, if you don't, if you
haven't been down that road andgiven the tools, and you don't
know that you have those toolsavailable.
So it's fascinating.
But he also supports us hereand I couldn't be more grateful.
(12:15):
But I really see how muchsupport it's given me to okay,
well, what do I want to do withmy time that you know that I
have here?
Not that it's not busy outsideof this office, but it's really
given me the opportunity.
Especially during COVID, Ithought, oh, man, like this is
(12:36):
more isolating than ever before.
And when I got to start thepodcast, it was like this door
that just opened and all ofthese people were, you know, in
there and I could meet witheveryone.
And oh, what a lovely thing tobe able to do.
(12:56):
And he did the same thing forme.
He was like, oh my gosh, getthe sign set up, all this.
He set up everything.
He's like my interior designertoo.
And yeah, just to really likehe's set up everything.
He's like my interior designertoo, um, and yeah, just to
really like he was like I knowthat you are like.
He always just sees the best inme, you know.
And he's like I know what I seeand I'm going to create that,
(13:19):
um, for you, my vision.
Speaker 4 (13:21):
So I just I'm like, okay, I can, you know I can roll
with that so I just I'm like,okay, I can, you know I can roll
with that, yeah.
Yeah, I think it's a matteralso of, I guess, like um,
proving yourself.
You know, yeah, like um, if youcan show someone that you're
really dedicated to somethingand, um, you're really going to
carry it through, you know, tillthe end, which is hard for
(13:43):
people with ADHD.
But but you know, the way Ilike to explain it is, in a
sense, it's kind of a numbersgame, like you're going to try a
lot of things in life.
Some of them fall through, butthen other things succeed.
But if you can show that, like,some of these things do succeed
, you know they are successful,then you know, I think people
(14:03):
are generally more open tosupporting and helping you and
believing you.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
And you know, that reminded me of something I heard
, it feels like, just yesterday.
Somebody say if you don't try,then you are already failing.
Like you, either try and youfail or succeed, or you fail,
that's it.
So why not try a little bit andtake a little risk sometimes?
But I mean, do your duediligence, be smart about your
(14:32):
risk taking if you can be.
But of course, there's just,you know, there's so many
opportunities.
What do you think?
Going back and backwardsinginto the past as a child, how
did writing and this love ofwriting and reading, how did
that happen for you?
Was it, you know, nurtured byyour parents, like siblings,
(14:55):
that you watched family ormentors?
How did that take shape?
Speaker 4 (15:01):
That's a good question.
So my mom passed away when Iwas four from breast cancer and
she was an artist before shepassed and my house.
I can show you one here.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
Raise it up a little, a little bit more Sorry.
No, you're good're good, oh,that's lovely, and that's the
small one.
Speaker 4 (15:29):
You should see, like I mean huge.
I have some oil painting, oil,yes, wow, um and anyway.
So that that was her thing.
She was an artist and um,thanks for sharing that.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
That's so sweet.
I love that.
Speaker 4 (15:48):
Yeah, and she also wrote.
She loved writing too and shewrote a children's book and she
didn't get to publish it but sheillustrated it.
She wrote the entire book andthen my grandmother published it
in her honor after she passedaway.
But she loved writing too.
Like I have some old thingsthat she wrote.
(16:09):
Actually, while she was in theIsraeli military she used to
write my dad love notes on themilitary computer and write
poetry.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
What a special gift that you are able to see.
I think love letters are justso special.
I have a couple notes, you know, just even from my parents when
I was little, or my husbandwhen we were first dating.
It'll be 21 years this year, soit's just so, just such a
(16:43):
touching, touching sentiment tobe able to share.
Speaker 4 (16:47):
Granted, there are also letters to like her
ex-boyfriends and stuff.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
I guess context is good.
Well, that's funny.
Yeah, I guess we have to, youknow, go through that.
The other relationship said ispretty funny though.
Speaker 4 (17:08):
The full human being, right, yeah, and apparently
very, very interesting andthings I didn't know and I only
learned recently.
But yeah, in terms of, like mylove it wasn't that I really
observed anyone because I wasfour when she passed away, but I
didn't really understand, Iguess, what her interests were.
I think it's, you know, Ireally think it's just genetic,
(17:31):
like I, you know, just loved it.
I just picked it up and it wasjust something I did for fun.
I would just write stories andI would read them to my friends
over the phone, like the hometelephone.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
Oh man, the good old days, isn't that true?
I love to write stories when Iwas younger too, and I think
that it really maybe goes toshow the imagination, the
creative source, or maybe evenopenness to being curious about
(18:15):
things that are not justattainable through.
You know one thing, becausewhen you're creating a story,
you're bringing so manydifferent ideas to life and, um,
it can be both wonderful,magical, vulnerable, it can be
(18:35):
terrifying, especially when yougo to publish it and you know,
and then you've poured yourheart and soul into things, but
it is terrifying that's exactlythe word to describe it.
Speaker 4 (18:46):
Like I just sent it to a few like readers recently
and was been like on the edge ofmy seat waiting for feedback
and someone responded and waslike Gilly, this book is so good
.
And I was like, oh, I canbreathe.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
Yeah, it is terrifying.
And I have children's books andI started with writing them as
just a hobby.
Sitting there with toddlersthought oh, this would be fun on
.
I don't even think it was Canvayet, it was something like
totally ridiculous.
Um, I was doing it on you knowa computer from who knows what
90 year and, uh it, it justtransformed into this you know
(19:34):
story, telling my child that herphysical difference, which I
also have and is hereditary inmy family, that both my kiddos
have it's outer ear, microtia, Ijust have these little tiny
teeny ears.
But, man, I had a hard timegrowing up.
(19:58):
I was bullied.
I was called little ears from Idon't know how early on in
school until I was literallypregnant in a gas station in my
thirties and somebody was like,hey, little ears, you know, and
I just thought you'd be kiddingme.
You know like, hello, uh, itjust uh, those things just
(20:19):
really can stick with you, Iguess, and hopefully our guests.
Speaker 4 (20:25):
As someone with ADHD, I totally would have thrown
back like, hey, big ears yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
I.
You know, my dad was a generalin the Air Force, and so keeping
my mouth shut was the kind ofgoal of you know.
That was where I was alwayskept, was in kind of a closed
down state, and so I didn't havethe courage or anything to
fight back to people like that.
(20:51):
I just kind of yeah, it's thesaddest thing, isn't it?
But I've done a lot of innerchild work.
Little Sarah's okay now, butyou know it's the book.
I wanted to let her know that,no matter what, that wasn't what
(21:13):
defined her, and she didn'tneed to.
She needed to see that therewere differences all around her
and that those all made up thissociety.
And it was actually about thesecats that had like little ears,
and so I likened it to how catsare so different from one
another.
And you don't, there's not verymany of the same cats.
(21:35):
We even have four of the samebreed.
They are nothing alike.
They couldn't be further fromdifferent from one another.
So it's, it's kind of abeautiful analogy, yeah, yeah.
But when I decided to publishthem and, kind of like you, said
I well, in a different way, I,you know, went to hundreds and
hundreds of publishers justprobably 100 publishers and
(22:00):
everyone said no, nobody wantedhundreds and hundreds, it feels
like it, and everyone said no,hundreds and hundreds, it feels
like it.
Everyone said no and nobody wasinterested.
Because I had written aboutDown syndrome and autism and
physical differences.
Nobody was interested inspecial needs books.
They were like no way.
And I self-published thembecause I knew how important
(22:23):
they were.
I knew how important they wereto not only my family, my
neighbors, my kids' peers atschool, so that they could have
kind of a glimpse of how theycould support them better and
maybe understand my son, who wasphysically different, but not
(22:44):
physically different than them,if that makes sense.
You know, behaviorallydifferent.
Speaker 4 (22:49):
Um, and the stubbornness and the mama bear,
oh isn't that the truth?
Speaker 3 (22:55):
Yeah, so anyways, yeah, I that that terrified
notion that I'm going to sharethis with the world.
And what if people tear it downLike these are this is my kids'
stories.
Is this even should I do this?
Is this risky?
I didn't use um.
I guess I did use their names,but it also hurts.
So, but you know, in theprocess, um, I think my daughter
(23:20):
was like eight years old at thetime and she was, has always
been, an artist.
She's, I've always been thewordsmith and she's such a
beautiful artist and sheillustrated a book and I
published it for her.
I mean just to show her thatlike those things can happen.
You know, you set your workingemotion.
(23:41):
So, yeah, all girls can becomeartists, and published ones at
that what is that one?
Speaker 4 (23:49):
one that your daughter made or illustrated.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
Anna's ABC book.
Yeah and um, it was just so.
She put a lot of work into it,you know, into the illustrations
, and then I just kind of put alittle poem along with it to
bring it together.
And yeah, it'll be alwayssomething special.
And you know, she's a teenagernow so I'm sure it's like so
(24:14):
cringy that I'm even bringingthis up, but you know, someday I
hope that she'll it will besomething she embraces and is
proud of or wants to share with,you know, other generations,
yeah I think better to be cringythan not yeah, I suppose so,
(24:36):
because you can at least lookback and know that like and to
know how capable you can be atwhatever age you know, with the
support of people who who loveand support you, which sounds
like you know both of us arehave been wonderfully blessed
with having inour lives.
Um, let's talk about your.
(24:57):
Uh, you know what it's like tobe a mom and trying to write a
book and how ADHD falls in linewith that.
What are some gosh, I totally.
My mind just wants to answer somany questions right now.
Okay, stick to one question ata time, know?
(25:24):
Okay, stick to one question ata time.
What was it like having tobecause I know how busy I get
when I'm in a project, you knowdeal with the needs of everyone
and get that done, and how doyou deal with your ADHD when
you're doing that?
Speaker 4 (25:34):
Yeah, I mean I can't, you know.
That's why I have help.
So, basically, you know when Idecided I was going to start
this project because it is aproject, you know it doesn't
just start with writing a book.
You know it starts with writinga book and writing a book
proposal, knowing how to write abook proposal, looking up
information and how do you evenget your foot in the door,
(25:56):
applying and getting an agent.
You know applying, like yousaid, you know sending it to
publishers and it's a wholeprocess.
It's a project and so I knew itwas going to be like a huge
undertaking.
Whatever I had listened to onYouTube, they all said you know
it takes a long time if you gothe traditional route, the
(26:17):
publishing, and even to try togo that route can take a long
time before you decide not to doit.
So I figured you know it wouldtake a while.
So I decided you know I had atthe time we already had a nanny
coming on Sundays and I wasseeing clients on Sundays
(26:37):
Because you know I was it wassort of you know it's to do them
a favor.
I was also like kind of apeople pleaser.
I wanted to look good in myposition and it was extra money,
obviously, because I wasworking like six day work weeks
and I was feeling really burntout.
I think you know, when you'redoing the same thing over and
over and over and over again,especially when you have ADHD,
(26:59):
it's like Groundhog Day.
And you know I got to a pointwhere I couldn't handle it
anymore and so, after talking tosomeone, I wrote about this in
my book.
After talking to someone aboutit, I decided you know what I'm
going to start this.
You know, like I've known sinceI was 14, I wanted to publish a
book and so I just decided I'mgoing to start now and I gave my
(27:23):
Sunday clients like a lot ofnotice, like three months notice
, and I planned, you know, Igave myself time and then my
Sundays were clear with a nanny,and those were the days that
you know I would go to Barnesand Noble.
Like leave the house.
You have to leave becauseotherwise it's like you still
feel your children in thebackground.
You know what I mean, like theirpresence and the noise if
(27:47):
something falls, you know, likeyou, just it's hard to pay
attention, I think, in thatcontext, and so I would
literally like remove myself andgo to Barnes and Noble and
that's actually where I'm goingto do my book launch, exactly
where I wrote my book, most ofit at least.
Yeah, because I wrote aboutwriting in Whole Foods too.
But if I was writing in WholeFoods it was because Barnes
Noble wasn't open yet.
(28:08):
So I like made my rounds, likemy way you know, 8, 9 am Whole
Foods and then made my way toBarnes Noble.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
That's funny.
Speaker 4 (28:17):
Yeah, but yeah I would, I would leave, and it was
also.
What I found is that if I'm ina context where I feel motivated
because there are books aroundme or you know, go to Whole
Foods.
And at the time I, we startedworking on like an ADHD here's
the oh, here's the original one.
So this was selling and I'msuper excited.
(28:40):
And then we shifted and now theone that's out is this one.
But at the time, while I waswriting, like the purple one was
out.
So I would go to Whole Foods,see the magazine sitting right
there, you know, and then go sitand work.
It was like such a goodmotivator, like a visual of like
(29:03):
going to get published.
You just need to keep workingon it.
And there's, you know, bodydoubling aspect to like we work
better when other people aroundus are working.
So I would sit next to someoneelse with a laptop, yeah else
(29:27):
with a laptop.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
Um, yeah, gosh, I I've never thought of that, or
or I mean, I don't know if Ihave the opportunity I guess as
much to to do that, but maybe Icome make him sit on my computer
next to me and do stuff.
I'll create my own.
Doubling.
That's funny.
What is your therapy like?
What do you offer and what doesthat look like?
(29:50):
If people are interested inlooking for services, what do
you usually?
Yes, teen stuff is like so huge.
I have teens, I get it stuff islike so huge.
Speaker 4 (30:06):
I have teens, I get it.
Yeah, no, it really, you know,just depends on the family,
obviously depends on the age.
You know, if kid is younger,more seven, you know I work with
them.
But I also work a lot with theparents Because a lot of times,
especially the kids that come into see me have behavioral
issues and the parents areunsure about how to manage their
(30:27):
, their kids behaviors at home.
They might have like outburstsand maybe undiagnosed ADHD or
autism and they, you know, theyaren't really sure like how to
get their kid to comply withcommands, like if they tell them
to do something their kid mightnot listen, or they feel like
they need to ask 70 times beforetheir kid actually like follows
(30:51):
through, and then that's reallyfrustrating to the parent.
It's very overwhelming.
That's more younger kids, um, alot of behavioral stuff, a lot
of behavioral stuff, and thenwith older teens it kind of
depends.
But you know, for a lot of myneurodivergent clients I start
very simple and I just kind ofsee where they're at in the
(31:14):
beginning and I try to be veryconcrete.
So you know, we'll work on likeemotion identification and you
know what are the emotions.
Let's start with that.
You know we'll work on likeemotion identification and you
know what are the emotions.
Let's start with that.
You know when you identify.
How do you know when you feelanxious?
What are some clues?
How do you know when someoneelse feels anxious?
What are some clues, like tyingthat into.
(31:34):
You know the social aspect.
What do people do with theirface when they're anxious?
Like, what do they do withtheir bodies?
Why do you think they do that?
It's interesting, I think, tolearn.
It's interesting to learn itwhen you're a teen too.
But yeah, and then, moving fromthere, like, what's a thought?
How does the thought look?
Like?
It could look different fordifferent people.
(31:56):
Sometimes they can be sentenceslike how can you try to figure
out what someone's thinking?
This, you know, it seems likeintuitive for people, but not
for people who are nerd virgins.
You need to really like spellit out.
And I find that because again,it kind of it differs With ADHD
it's not so much a disorder oflike knowledge.
(32:18):
Like people with ADHD generallyknow this stuff.
It's just harder for them inthe moment to carry out the
right, right response.
So they end up getting introuble or people don't like
them or they get rejected,whereas with autism it really is
just, you know, mostly from myexperience it's a knowledge
deficit.
They just don't know Like, butthen once someone teaches it to
(32:40):
them, like they really do greatin a sense, like it's easier.
I mean, I'm not saying this oneis easier to be autistic than
that, but I'm just saying totreat it, to work on that, on an
knowledge deficit, if you justteach it and then you know the
impulsivity isn't necessarilythere, um, then you know they're
able to to apply it very well.
Speaker 3 (33:01):
Exactly.
And nowadays, when we're seeingthis combination which I'm sure
you see commonly in the ADHDkind of mixture of the two,
let's?
Because a lot of my audienceare in the autistic community
(33:27):
and, let's be honest, I mean I'mADHD, my husband, my kids, like
the whole gamut.
So let's talk about.
I didn't maybe.
I don't know if you could sayidentifiers, if you will, I
don't know if that's the rightword to use, and also we'll get
to misconceptions in a minute.
Speaker 4 (33:44):
Identifiers meaning like how do you?
Speaker 3 (33:46):
when somebody is curious about if their child
might be neurodivergent?
What are the kind of standardsthat you would use to say the
fall within these guidelines?
I don't know, cause you're notusing the DSM anymore.
What does that look like foryou?
As you know, the uh, the doctorwho has to make these decisions
(34:11):
on the diagnosis.
No, I'm using the.
Speaker 4 (34:13):
DSM like to diagnose, yeah, yeah.
So right now we're on the DSM5TR.
It doesn't mean I agree withall of the stuff that's in there
A hundred percent.
Right, okay, as a psychologistI have to use it.
Interesting, okay, it dependson the practice.
You know like I'm in privatepractice right now.
(34:34):
So technically, like, we don'thave to.
It's like if it's a private payclient you don't have to
include a diagnosis.
But it's hard for me, the way Iwas trained.
You know like I have a lot oftesting, like psychological
testing, in my background Rightnow.
I don't do it just because Idon't prefer it, like I just
don't really like doing testing,although I technically can, but
I like therapy more.
So I'd rather use my time onthat, okay, but I'm
(34:58):
knowledgeable about it and sothe way I frame my interventions
is with diagnosis, diagnoses.
You know like it's.
It's hard for me to, you know,come up with a plan if I don't
have a name for it.
Speaker 3 (35:09):
Exactly.
Speaker 4 (35:10):
Yeah, so I have a name, but it's loose.
You know what I mean.
Like name, with flexibility,like um, you know, with ADHD,
for instance.
I'm not like a believer in the.
A lot of people say what typeare you Like?
This is not a horoscope youknow, it's like?
what type?
First of all, it's not a type,it's a presentation.
(35:32):
The word has been changedbecause there's so much room for
change over, especially overtime.
You know, mostly kids will getdiagnosed when they're really
young with like predominantlyhyperactive, impulsive
presentation, or combined, andthen it might change to like
inattentive I hate that word toolike as you make it into
(35:53):
adulthood.
For me it's like do you haveADHD or do not?
Yeah, because if it can change,then it's just symptoms, right,
like your symptoms can changeover time, but the core
diagnosis is the same.
You know, with autism we havedifferent levels.
That's different, you know.
It's like talking about like,like the level of supports that
(36:15):
the person needs.
That makes so much more senseto me, you know, it would make
more sense to me to have ADHD bea bunch of symptoms and the
person just needs to meetcriteria for ADHD and then what
level of support do they need?
And then the thought that itcould be on a spectrum also
makes sense to me.
With ADHD, like, why do wetreat one like this but the
(36:36):
other one differently?
But it doesn't matter, becauseit's still.
It helps me understand, youknow, and create interventions
regardless, even though thereare, you know, I feel like these
gaps.
Speaker 3 (36:49):
Which is nice that you get to individualize them
because, like you said, it'sgoing to be different for every
family that's stepping in theircultural differences,
experiences, family dynamics.
So much, so much, so much to gointo that how you would, you
know, help one family.
So that's.
That's a lot of work, andthat's that's exciting, though,
(37:10):
and like creative, in a way,that you get to put these
strategies in place and then seethem through.
Speaker 4 (37:20):
So yeah, humans are complicated, you know.
That's why I and a lot of othertherapists would probably agree
that AI is not going to takeover our profession.
Like, we are not threatened atall.
It's not a job for robots, yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
Yeah, I mean it's great for organizing paperwork,
but it really it's not going to,especially when we're,
especially especially when we'reunderstanding more and more
right my vocabulary when we'relearning more and more about the
(37:57):
presentations, like you said,of autistic individuals, of
individuals of ADHD,neurodivergent apraxia.
We're learning so much and it'scoming to, you know, there's
lights being shown and we cankind of have a little bit of a
glimpse of how we can bettersupport those other, you know,
(38:18):
members of our society that havebeen, in years past let's just
be honest forgotten and pushedaside, and that's painful.
So how do you see themisconceptions of ADHD?
What do people normally have asa misconception?
Speaker 4 (38:42):
Yeah, I mean the most common response is like, well,
no, she can't have ADHD, she'snot like bouncing around
everywhere, like she's able tosit still, or you know, for boys
, if you're thinking about boysa common misconception.
That used to be, and I hear itsometimes still.
But like they'll say how can hehave ADHD?
Like that would be.
That would mean he can't payattention and he can sit with
his video games for hours.
Have ADHD?
Like that would be.
That would mean he can't payattention, he can sit with his
(39:02):
video games for hours.
I remember hearing that morelike early on in my career when
I was a student and now less.
Like people are more aware thatthat's not a good rationale for
a kid not to have ADHD.
You can be like hyper-focusedand really interested on
something and sit through it forhours, just like someone who's
autistic can, exactly.
(39:24):
But if it's not interesting,that's the problem and that's
why I hate the word inattention,because it's not inattentive,
if anything, it's anoverabundance of attention.
I know I've heard Dr NedHallowell describe it like that
and a bunch of other ADHDexperts describe it in that way
(39:44):
and I even boil it down like inmy book I have a chapter on,
like the neurobiology andneurotransmitters and basically
you know I talk about how, likebrain structure is important in
understanding ADHD, as I'm surealso autism and other forms of
neurodiversity.
(40:04):
But what seems to be morerelevant is brain function, like
what is happening in the brain,and it's the over communication
and the way I describe it is.
I only remember this becauseI've been looking at this for so
long now.
But my, my book, like themanuscript and editing and
whatever, but I wrote it waslike um, there's like a 1920
(40:25):
style, a great Gatsby party inyour brain while you're trying
to do your homework.
It's like there's this push andpull, you know, between
different brain networks, youknow, and overactivity it's over
.
There's a party in there, youknow, and that's what's.
There's too much attention, youknow, you're paying attention
(40:48):
to this thought.
That's irrelevant, you know,while also trying to focus on
what's in front of you.
The other thing is Dr RussellBarkley talks about this but
like, adhders are fielddependent learners, meaning that
you know, if you think aboutlike working memory, for example
, working memory is the abilityto hold information in mind and
(41:11):
then manipulate it.
So, like mental math requiresreally good working memory
skills and we're just not goodat that.
And so field dependent learningbasically means that you're
like a visual learner and you'relearning and taking in
information from yourenvironment, from the stuff
that's around you, and then kindof making little calculations
(41:31):
in your head trying tounderstand it.
But you need to have that stuffin front of you and that's why
we suck at mental math.
Why we suck, you know, atmental math.
But we could sit and you know,with a calculator.
If we're given paper and pencil, it's a little bit easier for
us If it's visual and active andyou know we could put it down
on something in front of us.
So if we're field dependentlearners and we're so in tune
(41:54):
with what's happening around usbecause it's hard to keep all of
it in our heads, think aboutwhat happens, like when you're
trying to focus on that textbookor reading that one paragraph
in front of you, like there's somuch to look at in the world,
so you're absorbing all thisinformation plus all the
information that's distractingyou in your brain, plus trying
(42:15):
to focus on the paragraph infront of you, so there's only
you know.
I mean people talk about doinglike alternative therapies, like
how the hell are you going touse an alternative therapy for
that you know, you have to.
You know there's nothing betterthat's going to help it than
medication.
If that makes people angry,then you know that's fine.
That's just what the researchshows.
Speaker 3 (42:38):
No, I'm glad you said that, cause that was weird.
I was going to bring that upbecause I really like um to show
both sides of that, because Ipersonally, you know, don't want
to look into medications, but Ibelieve that it is so important
for those who are interestedand who do have that let's talk
(43:01):
about the types of medicationsthat do help, and I completely
believe in it.
I just don't want it for myself, and isn't that what it comes
down to?
It's really our own free will,personal journey experience,
whatever you want to call it.
But yeah, I definitely wantedto touch on medication because I
(43:22):
completely respect that and Ithink that people that get mad
about it don't have the abilityto stand outside and see both
sides, and maybe that's one ofmy superpowers.
Speaker 4 (43:35):
Yeah, yeah, no, I agree with you.
At the end of the day it's apersonal decision.
I also am a very big advocateof educating yourself, and you
know when I say educatingyourself, like you said before,
like doing research, right, butlooking at Google scholar,
listening to the experts in thefield talk about it, but not
just the experts, right.
Like also talk to people, realhuman beings you know, who
(43:58):
struggle with the disorder, andask them what has helped you.
It's good to combine, I think,like anecdotal or like personal
evidence.
As a clinical psychologist, Ihave to say this, you know,
because you can look at thenumbers and research and not be
convinced, but if you can talkto a few people, in addition to
reading the research andlistening to experts for example
(44:19):
, dr Russell Barkley, dr EdwardHallowell a book that really
inspired me and moved me towrite my book was ADHD 2.0.
You can also listen to or readUnderstanding Girls with ADHD.
Those are both really goodplaces to start Focusing on ADHD
(44:40):
.
Of course, there's a lot ofresources for all the other
neurodevelopmental conditions,but I can speak the best you
know in terms of subfieldsbecause I just wrote a book
about ADHD in women.
But but yeah, I mean, you know,I mean when you look at the
research, it's like the numbersjust don't lie and I think
(45:03):
there's a lot of like fearmongering from the media
basically trying to, you know, Iguess, like disseminate
misinformation that stimulantmedications are scary or they're
like really bad for you.
But this is the most wellstudied psychotropic drug on the
(45:24):
market because of all of thenegative attention that it has
been given, um, and it's themost effective and it's the most
carefully studied.
And the other thing is that ishonestly that has pushed me and,
you know, I'm going to start mydaughter on medication and
she's young, she's seven.
(45:45):
But the reason I want to isbecause there's also abundant
research A lot of people don'tknow about, about something
called neuro promotion.
Well, russ Barkley calls itneuropromotion, but others have
called it like neuroprotection,but he said it's more
appropriately neuropromotionbecause basically there are
studies showing that when kidshave taken stimulant medications
(46:09):
to treat their ADHD overseveral years, then their brain
starts to develop to a pointwhere it starts to become
non-distinguishable from peoplewho are neurotypical.
So it's overall brain volumeand then also specific brain
(46:30):
areas that are affected by ADHD,such as the cerebellum, the
frontal lobe I don't know if itsaid also the basal ganglia.
I don't remember all thespecific areas, but there's
research looking at targetedlike brain areas that are
generally affected in peoplewith ADHD and they use like
(46:53):
fMRIs and um imaging techniquesto show that like there's change
and growth over time.
Uh, for those who takestimulant medications.
Speaker 3 (47:08):
And I think it's important.
I love that.
You said it several times.
It's important to find thingsthat have been studied, and I
think that you, especiallyhaving that kind of interest,
knowledge to find those things,is so important and so helpful
(47:29):
to your clients, because they'renot just getting something that
, yeah, this pharmaceuticalcompany is paying me, as this
doctor, to sell this drug that Idon't know anything about.
I, you know, don't know thatthat's ever happened, but, um,
you know, just in case.
No, I really like that.
You said that because I thinkthat that's an important factor
(47:49):
to take into when deciding whattype of medication you're going
to take for yourself or put yourchild on, especially and you
know, for us personally, we did,when my son was younger, tried
some, I'm trying to think, triedsome medications, but he didn't
, wouldn't take oral medications, and so your son.
Speaker 4 (48:13):
You said your son is autistic.
Speaker 3 (48:15):
Now Correct, yeah, and so yeah and yeah, and it was
he at the time was um had beendiagnosed.
Uh, we went to Goldberg, who isa psychologist here in in Utah.
I don't know if you've heard ofhim.
He's written a few books aswell, um, and did some work on
(48:35):
the DSM or something.
But he was a little proud ofhimself in his session with us
and telling us all of hisaccolades or whatever anyways.
But he also, you know, at thattime, diagnosed him um autism,
(48:56):
adhd, global developmental delay.
He does have a 99% workingmemory, so I think that you,
understanding that is like yay,somebody that understands it can
really like appreciate whatthat means.
Um, and there's, you know hewas like reading a one and
writing it too, two, and justlike memorizing everything he
(49:17):
ever saw.
And so it's.
It's been an exciting life withhim, although, yeah, and he but
he has a really hard time withreciprocity conversations or any
that kind of communication, soit doesn't provide him the
necessary skills and socialthings that he does.
(49:37):
But yeah, so I had a care Ithink it was like concerta or
something and, um, it was he.
We only did it for a couple ofdays Cause I, like I said he
wouldn't do a oral medicationand so we had to, like, shove it
in his mouth quickly, rightwhen he woke up.
The most horrifying, traumaticthing, yeah absolutely hated it
right, when he woke up the mosthorrifying, traumatic thing that
(50:00):
you've had to say Absolutelyhated it.
So I went to his pediatrician Isaid no, no, no, no, no, I
can't do this.
This is nope, I'm not doingthis.
We got to find somethingdifferent.
I said find something topical.
So she did, she went and shefound a patch that we'd put on
him and we were only doing itbecause he was going to start a
new school and we wanted just toput him on the best you know,
(50:21):
forward for him, um, but thosethings didn't end up working out
for him.
We did notice, like the firstday on the concert to he, I, I
filmed him, um, he was a totallydifferent person.
He spoke differently.
He, um, if it were to work forhim, I don't know, there's too.
(50:42):
It's too bad that there wereother ways that it.
You know, we could have done alittle bit more, but he ended up
not sleeping for four daysafter that first time that we
had him on that and, yeah, itwas just like a mess, trial and
error, mess, right, but he's 15now and that was when he was
like eight or nine.
So it's been years, uh, yearsago, since we've even tried
(51:04):
medications.
But I, with my daughter, Ithought, okay, she also, um, uh,
adhd, autism, dyslexia, and so,for her it was more, we went
for the dyslexia uh diagnosis.
For her it was more, we wentfor the dyslexia diagnosis,
which was obvious, and theteachers didn't think so,
because once again, she was asmart girl who could have these
(51:25):
wonderful conversations, who wasvery curious and imaginative.
And how could she be dyslexic?
Well, because she writesbackwards, pay attention,
teachers, so interesting.
But yeah, we finally got herhelp.
But just recently, um, forseventh grade, I thought, okay,
well, um, you know, we'll justwant to try to get her the most
(51:49):
support.
And so, um, I found asupplement that I won't, you
know, sell on here, cause Idon't know about it enough, but
it really seemed to help andjust like the focus, and just
really like, oh, I feel reallygood, didn't have any side
effects or anything.
So I took it for a couple oftimes too and I thought, wow,
(52:10):
this has really helped me getthrough my day.
So I think that finding whatworks for you is a fantastic
idea and not being afraid oftrying a medication for yourself
or your kiddo.
I was going to say that aboutyour son too.
Speaker 4 (52:27):
I was going to say it's better to try.
I think in most cases it'sbetter to try than not to try,
because now you've tried it andyou can say this is another way
not to screw in a light bulb.
You know this doesn't work andin most cases it's not going to
permanently damage your child.
I mean, I don't know of asingle story like that.
I'm sure they exist somewhere.
(52:47):
There's always a fluke.
You know case.
But yeah, it was stimulantmedication.
The nice thing about it is it'snot like an SSRI where you have
to take it for six weeks andthen know whether it's effective
or not.
You can take it one day andeven take a short acting one
like an Advil it's like fourhours long and then, if you
don't like it, don't take itagain.
Exactly.
Speaker 3 (53:08):
Exactly, Exactly and you know, like you said, maybe
give it a measured test run sothat you can see how it helps,
or or if it really messes, yeah.
Yeah, Like you said, don't doit, but I think it's important.
I think it's an important partof the discussion and part of
the understanding that it's nota one size fits all anything.
(53:32):
Our brains are different.
No matter whether you know,we're both ADHD, autistic,
whatever, like, our brains arestill going to be different.
Um, and it's.
I think that that's sofascinating.
What do you think?
What's your opinion about brainscanning and brains mapping and
scans?
That's how I got my information.
(53:53):
What's your opinion about that?
Speaker 4 (53:55):
I'm skeptical of it.
Um, I know that, um, catherineEllison.
So she's published a bookcalled buzz you're paying
attention.
She writes about her experiencewith um, finding out about her
own ADHD and treating her son,uh, who had ADHD, who has ADHD,
but now he's an adult, but hewas a kid in the book.
And so she goes and she doeslike I don't know, brain
(54:20):
scanning, brain mapping, they'relike, they're all the same.
I don't have personal experiencewith it, but I know that the
research is kind of like mixedand muddied in relation to it's
like validity.
You know, is it really kind ofmeasuring what we think it's
measuring validity?
You know, is it really kind ofmeasuring what we think it's
(54:40):
measuring?
Um, and so because of that, youknow, I'm skeptical.
Even with genes, you know therearen't any like genes we, or a
group of genes we couldspecifically point to and say
like here are the genes thatproduce, you know, adhd, or
really like any mental disorder,to my knowledge at least.
(55:00):
I think maybe it'll be a longtime before we get to a point
where we can really go down andsimplify them that way, or maybe
we won't ever get there at all.
Speaker 3 (55:14):
Isn't that the truth at all?
Isn't that the truth?
And I think, as a parent, therehas to be a time where, as a
doctor, don't ever give up thiscuriosity as why, where and how,
but as a parent, there comes atime where you have to just
accept your kid or yourself orwhatever.
I guess I'm speaking as aparent for a kid, of who they
(55:37):
are as a person and what thischild is like and their
personality, rather than justseeing them for the things that
they could change aboutthemselves to make them seem
better, whatever.
I think that's sad, but I thinkit's just a journey, whatever.
(55:59):
I think that's sad, but I thinkit's just a journey.
There's a lot of parentingstyles that are changing, a lot
of open discussions about how wecan do things differently, and
maybe it, you know, comes a lotfrom like you had kind of
mentioned before, from like youhad kind of mentioned before
(56:19):
living experience.
Have someone living thatexperience, especially as a
parent, as a woman who, you know, maybe has ADHD and you know,
hopefully it's a valid enoughthing that I can trust now.
And I think that between me andmy husband, a thing that we
(56:40):
always kind of said between eachother was Do you really
question things like this ifthey aren't In front of you?
Like you wouldn't go outsideand be like boy?
I wonder if the sky is redtoday or if it's gray, like it's
obviously gray.
You don't have to wonder ifit's a red day, like it's not.
(57:04):
But I think that people oftenfind themselves in this like oh,
I wonder, I wonder, and I thinkthat there's a little bit of
like curiosity to be had withthat question.
So be curious.
I think that's's a little bitof like curiosity to be had with
that question, so be curious.
Speaker 4 (57:20):
I think that's the best thing.
Yeah, I think I understand whatyou're saying.
You're saying that, like youknow, you want to feel certain
about certain things, but youalso need to be open to the
possibility that they're notnecessarily what you expect for
right to the possibility thatthey're not necessarily what you
expect for right?
Speaker 3 (57:47):
Yeah, or you know, and I'm maybe speaking from more
of like um, my kind of supportsystem and more um in an
autistic like um support.
So, like my mom neverquestioned in her life, like my
mom never questioned in her lifewhether or not she might be
near diverse, is she neartypical because of that?
I don't know.
I questioned my whole lifewhether I was typical for me.
(58:07):
That is telling to me that Ipossibly am not, because I don't
think I would questionotherwise.
I don't know if we have thatwithin us to be curious about.
I don't mean that was like asuper deep I don't even know
where it came from thing to sayit's pretty generalized and
probably totally, you know,could be falsified.
Speaker 4 (58:28):
But hey, today's Sarah's opinion all depends on,
I think, like you know, whatperspective you're looking at it
from.
You know, if you look at justmaterial, simple perspective, or
you're just like I need to getmy services covered by insurance
, then you need very clear cutanswers.
But as a human being, you know,my opinion is like what's so
(58:50):
bad with leaning intouncertainty and just saying like
I think a lot of things in lifeare just constructed Right?
I was having this conversationwith my husband the other day
too.
You know, like there aresubjects within psychology that
you know people will say likewell, you can't prove that, but
what can you prove?
You know?
I mean, even now the ADHDcriteria, like we're developed
(59:12):
on and for mostly little boys,are going to change.
Nothing is set in stone, youknow.
Things change.
Opinions change, ourunderstanding of the world
changes.
That's part of being alive andgrowing and you have to be okay
with that.
Speaker 3 (59:28):
I can't believe how much time has gone.
This has been such a greatconversation.
You know I want to make surethat everyone knows where to go
get the book.
Talk about the book.
Let's talk about what is thebook called.
I have a little preview here.
I'm going to pull it up reallyfast for everybody to see it.
(59:49):
Allow me to interrupt.
Tell us the oh.
The moment you decided like oh,this is my book, this is going
to be the title, this is, youknow, the cover.
I.
I kind of saw you get to gothrough that process, so yeah,
no, I'm really excited.
Speaker 4 (01:00:09):
It feels good when you pull it up.
I love that megaphone.
It's so cool, um, um, how do I,I don't know?
There were a lot of questionsthere.
Okay, a title, so actuallyinteresting.
Interestingly, the first title Ihad when I was pitching,
without an agent or anything, itwas sensitive and selective, uh
(01:00:29):
, because, again, I hate theword inattention, I think it's
more selective attention andbecause I wanted the book to be
about emotional dysregulationand, uh, sensitivities.
I think there's a big sensorycomponent to that.
So that was the title.
And then, you know, basicallythe agreement was that it's too
complicated and not catchyenough.
So then I came up with allow meto interrupt.
(01:00:51):
And then, together with, like,my team, we came up with this.
I got just reveals the emotionaltruth behind women's adhd, but
I like it.
It's like it's got that pizzazz, um and kind of um playfulness
to it, and I think you know mytone and, uh, the stories you
(01:01:12):
know in the book are they'replayful, they're serious, but
there's some funny elements tothem because we're funny,
absolutely.
They're funny, yeah, but it'salso, you know and I start
chapter one with this it's alsoinspired by the Taming of the
Shrew.
Okay, so the chat.
(01:01:33):
Each chapter is written kind oflike the wording of if I be
lost, best be where my sting.
So that's chapter one, and thenevery chapter is kind of worded
like that If I be lost, best Ifind my way like Shakespeare.
Speaker 3 (01:01:50):
It's fantastic.
I love that you brought yourown elements into it like that
and made it less clinical, ifyou will, and more just for an
everyday reader, and I love thatReally, really lovely.
And you can go to Dr GillyKhan's website here at
(01:02:10):
wwwdrgillykhancom, where you canfind links to the website, to
the website, links to the bookon the website and also links to
social media to go followsocial media.
The book is in pre-order rightnow, is that correct?
Speaker 4 (01:02:34):
Yeah, it's going to launch September 9th.
Say that again September 9th.
Yeah, it launches september 9th, but pre-order it because
that's how, basically,apparently I had to teach this
to myself, but too, but, um,that's how they know, like how
many you know copies to make.
So if you really you get a copyon time, then it makes more
sense to pre-order it.
Speaker 3 (01:02:55):
Love that and that will all be in the show notes so
that you can go and get thatinformation and go and support
and you know, if you're lookingfor therapy services in Atlanta
and you need to, or you lovedthis discussion and want to find
out more, please reach out.
What are your plans?
(01:03:17):
What you said?
You're onto the next thing.
Speaker 4 (01:03:21):
Yeah, so you know I have to discuss.
I pitched a couple ideas andI'm kind of kind of set on this
one idea, so hopefully it I cancarry it through.
But this is just like thoughts,you know, and hypothetical at
the moment.
But I'm really interested inADHD.
But I'm also really interestedin and one of my articles in
(01:03:42):
ADHD, like the women's magazine,is on this topic.
It's about like intuition, youknow gut feelings, consciousness
, and you know consciousness.
The question of consciousnessof, is it you know kind of?
You know consciousness, thequestion of consciousness of, is
it, you know, kind of, uh,limited to brain activity, or
(01:04:05):
could there be kind of likebeyond the brain, love?
Speaker 3 (01:04:09):
it.
I love that yeah, right up myalley if you ever want to have a
deep discussion with people,isn't it?
Is you really it really is,isn't it?
I think that it is definitelyso.
I I think that the way you kindof went about what I'm gonna
(01:04:29):
say this, that's great.
I love that.
Oh, I wish you all the best andI I'm really, really glad we
got to catch up and have thisamazing discussion today.
Any advice that you want togive to other women with ADHD
out there, since it seems likethat's something we just didn't
(01:04:49):
touch on?
Unfortunately, we'll have tohave another discussion about
that someday.
Speaker 4 (01:04:55):
Advice to women with ADHD.
Speaker 3 (01:04:58):
Yeah, what's your top kind of advice that you would
give?
Speaker 4 (01:05:04):
They don't know you as well as you know yourself.
That's what I would say.
You know, because other peopleare, can be judgmental and they
can misunderstand you, but youknow deep down that what kind of
a person you are and what yourintentions are and what your
goals are, and don't let otherpeople stop that.
Speaker 3 (01:05:22):
Love that.
That's fantastic.
Thank you so much.
It's really just been such apleasure and I look forward to
keep following you and watchingyour journey and getting the
book and reading all of theexciting and fun things and,
yeah, I'm really looking forwardto it.
(01:05:43):
So thank you so much for yourtime today and I look forward to
staying in touch.
Speaker 4 (01:05:47):
Of course, yeah, same to you.
Thank you so much for having meon the show today, sarah.
Speaker 2 (01:06:05):
In the heart of a city.
She's shining bright.
Oh yeah.
Stories of love and courage allthroughout the night.
Her voice resonating an anthemfor all.
Stories of love and courage allthroughout the night.
Her voice resonating an anthemfor all.
Through the trials and thestrife, she answers the call.
A mother and a fighter,breaking barriers and strife.
(01:06:27):
Her love is her guide.
She'll never hide.
She's changing the world foryou in the light.
(01:06:53):
She stands for family.
I've kissed them all.
The movement of compassion.
Waves will soar.
Podcast together.
Symphony of support In lifeChanging report.
She's changing the world foryou With a heart that's fierce
and strong.
(01:07:13):
Empathies and melodies.
A journey we all belong To hereyes.
(01:07:54):
Thank you.
We all belong.
The SJ Childs Show is Backford's 13th season.
Join Sarah Brafford and the SJChilds Show team as they explore
the world of autism and sharestories of hope and inspiration.
This season we're excited tobring you more autism summits
featuring experts and advocatesfrom around the world.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Go to sjchildsorg hey everyone.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
I wanted to take a second to talk to you about the
International Autism Summitcoming up in April April 25th
and 26th.
It's going to be streaming freefrom all of my channels.
If you haven't already gone tofollow me, go to sgchildsorg.
Click on any of the socialmedia icons and go follow me so
(00:58):
that you can be with us at theInternational Autism Summit 2025
, april 25th and 26th.
Can't wait to see you then.
Hello and thank you for joiningthe SJ Child Show today.
I am really excited I knowthose are my first words of
(01:19):
every single show.
I'm really excited to have thisconversation today, but I
really have been waiting.
We had something set up and itdidn't work out for lots of
schedules.
Life, life, life isn't that thecase, but we met on the Mental
Health Network I think that'swhat it's called podcast, with
(01:42):
Adam Duvall.
He's out of the UK and he haslike a panel podcast.
That's really interesting andthey have great discussions and
that's I'm pretty sure that'sthe first time that I met you is
that we were on a paneltogether.
And for those of you listeningand not watching, today I am
(02:02):
sitting down with Dr Gilly Khan.
I hope I pronounced everythingcorrectly.
Please let me know if I didn't.
Speaker 4 (02:12):
So let me, can I tell you, just in case you want to
know.
So the pot, the podcast, andthe reason I'm bringing it up is
because I'm doing like parttime paneling for the podcast
now.
So if they see me on this andthey're like why didn't you
correct her, I don't want themto be mad.
So it's called Health WarriorsPodcast.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
Yes, thank you.
Yes, and it has like a hand orsomething as its logo, a hand
print, I guess you could say.
And they really do greatdiscussions and cover a wide
variety and have some greatexperts and guests on the show
to discuss a variety of mentalhealth, and here today we are
(02:56):
going to dive deeper into yourwork and getting to know you a
little bit more.
So let's start with anintroduction.
Let us know you know you alittle bit more.
So let's start with anintroduction.
Let us know you know a littlebit about yourself and kind of
what brought you here.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
Yeah, that question is never going to cease to make
me right.
It's only two hours later.
Yeah, no, yeah.
So I'm Dr Gilly Kahn.
I'm a clinical psychologist, amom and a writer and now newly
an author of a book, and Ipractice in Atlanta, georgia,
(03:31):
but I also see people around theUnited States and some other
states via telehealth.
My work specializes inneurodiversity and emotional
dysregulation and specificpopulation.
Like most of the people I workwith are teens and their
families, and I love writing.
(03:54):
I love reading anything withinthe area of psychology.
It's totally my specialinterest and I have two little
ones and, yeah, I'm happy to behere.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Yay, it's so nice to have you too, and what a great
discussion, because there's justso many facets that we can
touch on parenting and theservices you provide, the book,
which I'm really excited to get,one for myself, number one and
also, you know, really divedeeper into what you know drove
(04:35):
you to do that.
What was the I have to do this?
I'm going to get it done.
So let's start with your familyand how that's been supporting
you in your work, that you'redoing in your journey, and what
does that look like raising twokids and being a psychologist.
Speaker 4 (04:57):
Yeah, I mean it has definitely been all over the
place, I know as it would be for, like any adult with ADHD, but
especially, you know, as a mom.
And you know, before earning myPhD, I also earned a master's
in experimental psychology.
So I was in school for a reallylong time and I mean the reason
(05:19):
for that is because, okay, sofor an undergraduate, I majored
in psychology and creativewriting Before college.
I wanted to be a writer, I justwanted to write books.
And as I got closer andapproached college and deciding,
you know, what should I majorin, I felt that, you know,
(05:42):
banking on a writing career wastoo risky and the books I was
reading were, oh, I lovedStephen King, anything with a
psychological twist or bend toit.
And I was taking the AP Psychclass, and so I just decided I
love psychology too, so I'mgoing to start by majoring in
(06:04):
psychology, psychology too.
So I'm going to start bymajoring in psychology.
And I just started with a majorpsychology minor in English lit
.
And then, while I was incollege, I just decided I cannot
live without creative writing.
It's just, you know, woven intomy very being, and so I just
added it as a.
So I bumped up the English litminor to a creative writing
(06:25):
major, so I majored in both.
But you know, psychology is, ifyou want to be a psychologist
you can.
You know you can get become atherapist, like a mental health
counselor, or you can becomelike a social worker and get a
master's worker and get amaster's.
(06:48):
But I really I wanted to committo kind of making it till the
end and getting a PhD inclinical psychology.
And I think one thing aboutpeople who are neurodivergent,
people with ADHD, is like, oncethey make a decision, I think
especially women we are.
You know and I talk about thisin the book we're stubborn.
You finished the sentence.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
Right, right, exactly no, there's no stopping us, and
I couldn't agree more yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:13):
Yeah, so I just I set that goal, I made that decision
.
It was rigid and so I appliedthe first time around.
But you know, it wasperfectionistic and I only
applied to the best programsthat only accepted one student
or five students everyapplication cycle.
So I didn't get in and so atthat point I had to take a
(07:37):
detour and I decided I would doa master's in experimental
psychology, beef up my CD andthen try again.
And so I did that and it was agreat experience and I learned a
lot.
I did a lot of research and Ithink one thing you learn as you
kind of move forwardprofessionally is that you know
(08:01):
you make the most of yourexperiences, and I'm sorry to
sound cliche, but sometimesthings happen for a reason, yeah
, you know, because you meetpeople on your detour who end up
helping you down the line.
So it felt that way to me.
So I did that and then Ireapplied and I got in.
(08:21):
I applied to 15 programs.
I was accepted to one and Iinterviewed it a lot like.
I got a lot of interviews, youknow, and I was very close with
a few of them.
But then it becomes complicated, you know, things are kind of
out of your hands like, oh, thisperson lost funding, or you
(08:41):
know this one, I don't knowanother reason that's kind of
out of your control.
So I ended up at Nova and wasvery happy there and completed
my PhD and ended up extendingbecause I had my daughter, which
was planned, and so everythingjust took a really long time.
(09:02):
So it did require, like a lot, alot of support from my husband
because financially, you know,he was kind of carrying the
family and he still is.
In terms of, like you know,income, financial disparity I
think it's the case in mosthouseholds the male is earning
more than the female.
(09:22):
But, you know, in our case ithas been okay.
And then, especially this year,because for a while I was just,
you know, it was aboutfinishing becoming a
psychologist, starting to work,and for a year or two it was
more stable.
And then, you know, I got to apoint where I said, okay, I'm
(09:43):
ready to, you know, dive into mycreative writing interest and,
you know, accomplish that othergoal that I had, to publish a
book.
And that's going to slow youdown, you know, because you're
spending half your time, youknow, not seeing clients but
basically taking a risk.
It's like if you start abusiness, you know you don't
(10:05):
know if it's going to besuccessful.
You just know that you love itand that you would regret you.
I can't speak.
You would regret it if youdidn't try it.
So yeah, um, that brings me totoday.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
Yeah, I love it.
I love it.
It's so important.
I wouldn't I don't know where Iwould be without my husband's
support, and I think that youand him would get along so well
because he is also like a loverof Stephen King books and he
wrote, you know, he gave me thatgreat quote to tell you the
other day.
He's just a really intuitiveand caring person and so he
(10:43):
really puts a lot of just whathe says is just truth, and I
think that that could either hitpeople really hard and really,
you know, smack them across theface, or it can be so touching
and heartwarming.
And so I guess it's yourperception and how you've been
approached by this truth, but Ithink that it's.
It's so, it's so lovely thatway.
(11:04):
But the support that you know,when we found out I was going to
need to stay home with aprofoundly autistic child, there
was no other really option thanto give up my careers.
And well, I mean, we could have, yes, found options, but we
both want.
I wanted to stay home.
I was already in my thirtiesbefore I had gotten pregnant, so
(11:28):
I was already older and, like,had had career time, if you will
, and I was a research paralegalfor a long time.
So I really appreciate thatelement of being, of knowing how
to do research and reallyunderstanding the importance of
it.
And I think that it's a lot ofpeople you see like, oh, how do
(11:51):
I do this?
And you're like, oh my gosh,just go to the Google search bar
and find an answer, right.
But I think that it's kind oflike, if you don't, if you
haven't been down that road andgiven the tools, and you don't
know that you have those toolsavailable.
So it's fascinating.
But he also supports us hereand I couldn't be more grateful.
(12:15):
But I really see how muchsupport it's given me to okay,
well, what do I want to do withmy time that you know that I
have here?
Not that it's not busy outsideof this office, but it's really
given me the opportunity.
Especially during COVID, Ithought, oh, man, like this is
(12:36):
more isolating than ever before.
And when I got to start thepodcast, it was like this door
that just opened and all ofthese people were, you know, in
there and I could meet witheveryone.
And oh, what a lovely thing tobe able to do.
(12:56):
And he did the same thing forme.
He was like, oh my gosh, getthe sign set up, all this.
He set up everything.
He's like my interior designertoo.
And yeah, just to really likehe's set up everything.
He's like my interior designertoo, um, and yeah, just to
really like he was like I knowthat you are like.
He always just sees the best inme, you know.
And he's like I know what I seeand I'm going to create that,
(13:19):
um, for you, my vision.
Speaker 4 (13:21):
So I just I'm like, okay, I can, you know I can roll
with that so I just I'm like,okay, I can, you know I can roll
with that, yeah.
Yeah, I think it's a matteralso of, I guess, like um,
proving yourself.
You know, yeah, like um, if youcan show someone that you're
really dedicated to somethingand, um, you're really going to
carry it through, you know, tillthe end, which is hard for
(13:43):
people with ADHD.
But but you know, the way Ilike to explain it is, in a
sense, it's kind of a numbersgame, like you're going to try a
lot of things in life.
Some of them fall through, butthen other things succeed.
But if you can show that, like,some of these things do succeed
, you know they are successful,then you know, I think people
(14:03):
are generally more open tosupporting and helping you and
believing you.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
And you know, that reminded me of something I heard
, it feels like, just yesterday.
Somebody say if you don't try,then you are already failing.
Like you, either try and youfail or succeed, or you fail,
that's it.
So why not try a little bit andtake a little risk sometimes?
But I mean, do your duediligence, be smart about your
(14:32):
risk taking if you can be.
But of course, there's just,you know, there's so many
opportunities.
What do you think?
Going back and backwardsinginto the past as a child, how
did writing and this love ofwriting and reading, how did
that happen for you?
Was it, you know, nurtured byyour parents, like siblings,
(14:55):
that you watched family ormentors?
How did that take shape?
Speaker 4 (15:01):
That's a good question.
So my mom passed away when Iwas four from breast cancer and
she was an artist before shepassed and my house.
I can show you one here.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
Raise it up a little, a little bit more Sorry.
No, you're good're good, oh,that's lovely, and that's the
small one.
Speaker 4 (15:29):
You should see, like I mean huge.
I have some oil painting, oil,yes, wow, um and anyway.
So that that was her thing.
She was an artist and um,thanks for sharing that.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
That's so sweet.
I love that.
Speaker 4 (15:48):
Yeah, and she also wrote.
She loved writing too and shewrote a children's book and she
didn't get to publish it but sheillustrated it.
She wrote the entire book andthen my grandmother published it
in her honor after she passedaway.
But she loved writing too.
Like I have some old thingsthat she wrote.
(16:09):
Actually, while she was in theIsraeli military she used to
write my dad love notes on themilitary computer and write
poetry.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
What a special gift that you are able to see.
I think love letters are justso special.
I have a couple notes, you know, just even from my parents when
I was little, or my husbandwhen we were first dating.
It'll be 21 years this year, soit's just so, just such a
(16:43):
touching, touching sentiment tobe able to share.
Speaker 4 (16:47):
Granted, there are also letters to like her
ex-boyfriends and stuff.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
I guess context is good.
Well, that's funny.
Yeah, I guess we have to, youknow, go through that.
The other relationship said ispretty funny though.
Speaker 4 (17:08):
The full human being, right, yeah, and apparently
very, very interesting andthings I didn't know and I only
learned recently.
But yeah, in terms of, like mylove it wasn't that I really
observed anyone because I wasfour when she passed away, but I
didn't really understand, Iguess, what her interests were.
I think it's, you know, Ireally think it's just genetic,
(17:31):
like I, you know, just loved it.
I just picked it up and it wasjust something I did for fun.
I would just write stories andI would read them to my friends
over the phone, like the hometelephone.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
Oh man, the good old days, isn't that true?
I love to write stories when Iwas younger too, and I think
that it really maybe goes toshow the imagination, the
creative source, or maybe evenopenness to being curious about
(18:15):
things that are not justattainable through.
You know one thing, becausewhen you're creating a story,
you're bringing so manydifferent ideas to life and, um,
it can be both wonderful,magical, vulnerable, it can be
(18:35):
terrifying, especially when yougo to publish it and you know,
and then you've poured yourheart and soul into things, but
it is terrifying that's exactlythe word to describe it.
Speaker 4 (18:46):
Like I just sent it to a few like readers recently
and was been like on the edge ofmy seat waiting for feedback
and someone responded and waslike Gilly, this book is so good
.
And I was like, oh, I canbreathe.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
Yeah, it is terrifying.
And I have children's books andI started with writing them as
just a hobby.
Sitting there with toddlersthought oh, this would be fun on
.
I don't even think it was Canvayet, it was something like
totally ridiculous.
Um, I was doing it on you knowa computer from who knows what
90 year and, uh it, it justtransformed into this you know
(19:34):
story, telling my child that herphysical difference, which I
also have and is hereditary inmy family, that both my kiddos
have it's outer ear, microtia, Ijust have these little tiny
teeny ears.
But, man, I had a hard timegrowing up.
(19:58):
I was bullied.
I was called little ears from Idon't know how early on in
school until I was literallypregnant in a gas station in my
thirties and somebody was like,hey, little ears, you know, and
I just thought you'd be kiddingme.
You know like, hello, uh, itjust uh, those things just
(20:19):
really can stick with you, Iguess, and hopefully our guests.
Speaker 4 (20:25):
As someone with ADHD, I totally would have thrown
back like, hey, big ears yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
I.
You know, my dad was a generalin the Air Force, and so keeping
my mouth shut was the kind ofgoal of you know.
That was where I was alwayskept, was in kind of a closed
down state, and so I didn't havethe courage or anything to
fight back to people like that.
(20:51):
I just kind of yeah, it's thesaddest thing, isn't it?
But I've done a lot of innerchild work.
Little Sarah's okay now, butyou know it's the book.
I wanted to let her know that,no matter what, that wasn't what
(21:13):
defined her, and she didn'tneed to.
She needed to see that therewere differences all around her
and that those all made up thissociety.
And it was actually about thesecats that had like little ears,
and so I likened it to how catsare so different from one
another.
And you don't, there's not verymany of the same cats.
(21:35):
We even have four of the samebreed.
They are nothing alike.
They couldn't be further fromdifferent from one another.
So it's, it's kind of abeautiful analogy, yeah, yeah.
But when I decided to publishthem and, kind of like you, said
I well, in a different way, I,you know, went to hundreds and
hundreds of publishers justprobably 100 publishers and
(22:00):
everyone said no, nobody wantedhundreds and hundreds, it feels
like it, and everyone said no,hundreds and hundreds, it feels
like it.
Everyone said no and nobody wasinterested.
Because I had written aboutDown syndrome and autism and
physical differences.
Nobody was interested inspecial needs books.
They were like no way.
And I self-published thembecause I knew how important
(22:23):
they were.
I knew how important they wereto not only my family, my
neighbors, my kids' peers atschool, so that they could have
kind of a glimpse of how theycould support them better and
maybe understand my son, who wasphysically different, but not
(22:44):
physically different than them,if that makes sense.
You know, behaviorallydifferent.
Speaker 4 (22:49):
Um, and the stubbornness and the mama bear,
oh isn't that the truth?
Speaker 3 (22:55):
Yeah, so anyways, yeah, I that that terrified
notion that I'm going to sharethis with the world.
And what if people tear it downLike these are this is my kids'
stories.
Is this even should I do this?
Is this risky?
I didn't use um.
I guess I did use their names,but it also hurts.
So, but you know, in theprocess, um, I think my daughter
(23:20):
was like eight years old at thetime and she was, has always
been, an artist.
She's, I've always been thewordsmith and she's such a
beautiful artist and sheillustrated a book and I
published it for her.
I mean just to show her thatlike those things can happen.
You know, you set your workingemotion.
(23:41):
So, yeah, all girls can becomeartists, and published ones at
that what is that one?
Speaker 4 (23:49):
one that your daughter made or illustrated.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
Anna's ABC book.
Yeah and um, it was just so.
She put a lot of work into it,you know, into the illustrations
, and then I just kind of put alittle poem along with it to
bring it together.
And yeah, it'll be alwayssomething special.
And you know, she's a teenagernow so I'm sure it's like so
(24:14):
cringy that I'm even bringingthis up, but you know, someday I
hope that she'll it will besomething she embraces and is
proud of or wants to share with,you know, other generations,
yeah I think better to be cringythan not yeah, I suppose so,
(24:36):
because you can at least lookback and know that like and to
know how capable you can be atwhatever age you know, with the
support of people who who loveand support you, which sounds
like you know both of us arehave been wonderfully blessed
with having inour lives.
Um, let's talk about your.
(24:57):
Uh, you know what it's like tobe a mom and trying to write a
book and how ADHD falls in linewith that.
What are some gosh, I totally.
My mind just wants to answer somany questions right now.
Okay, stick to one question ata time, know?
(25:24):
Okay, stick to one question ata time.
What was it like having tobecause I know how busy I get
when I'm in a project, you knowdeal with the needs of everyone
and get that done, and how doyou deal with your ADHD when
you're doing that?
Speaker 4 (25:34):
Yeah, I mean I can't, you know.
That's why I have help.
So, basically, you know when Idecided I was going to start
this project because it is aproject, you know it doesn't
just start with writing a book.
You know it starts with writinga book and writing a book
proposal, knowing how to write abook proposal, looking up
information and how do you evenget your foot in the door,
(25:56):
applying and getting an agent.
You know applying, like yousaid, you know sending it to
publishers and it's a wholeprocess.
It's a project and so I knew itwas going to be like a huge
undertaking.
Whatever I had listened to onYouTube, they all said you know
it takes a long time if you gothe traditional route, the
(26:17):
publishing, and even to try togo that route can take a long
time before you decide not to doit.
So I figured you know it wouldtake a while.
So I decided you know I had atthe time we already had a nanny
coming on Sundays and I wasseeing clients on Sundays
(26:37):
Because you know I was it wassort of you know it's to do them
a favor.
I was also like kind of apeople pleaser.
I wanted to look good in myposition and it was extra money,
obviously, because I wasworking like six day work weeks
and I was feeling really burntout.
I think you know, when you'redoing the same thing over and
over and over and over again,especially when you have ADHD,
(26:59):
it's like Groundhog Day.
And you know I got to a pointwhere I couldn't handle it
anymore and so, after talking tosomeone, I wrote about this in
my book.
After talking to someone aboutit, I decided you know what I'm
going to start this.
You know, like I've known sinceI was 14, I wanted to publish a
book and so I just decided I'mgoing to start now and I gave my
(27:23):
Sunday clients like a lot ofnotice, like three months notice
, and I planned, you know, Igave myself time and then my
Sundays were clear with a nanny,and those were the days that
you know I would go to Barnesand Noble.
Like leave the house.
You have to leave becauseotherwise it's like you still
feel your children in thebackground.
You know what I mean, like theirpresence and the noise if
(27:47):
something falls, you know, likeyou, just it's hard to pay
attention, I think, in thatcontext, and so I would
literally like remove myself andgo to Barnes and Noble and
that's actually where I'm goingto do my book launch, exactly
where I wrote my book, most ofit at least.
Yeah, because I wrote aboutwriting in Whole Foods too.
But if I was writing in WholeFoods it was because Barnes
Noble wasn't open yet.
(28:08):
So I like made my rounds, likemy way you know, 8, 9 am Whole
Foods and then made my way toBarnes Noble.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
That's funny.
Speaker 4 (28:17):
Yeah, but yeah I would, I would leave, and it was
also.
What I found is that if I'm ina context where I feel motivated
because there are books aroundme or you know, go to Whole
Foods.
And at the time I, we startedworking on like an ADHD here's
the oh, here's the original one.
So this was selling and I'msuper excited.
(28:40):
And then we shifted and now theone that's out is this one.
But at the time, while I waswriting, like the purple one was
out.
So I would go to Whole Foods,see the magazine sitting right
there, you know, and then go sitand work.
It was like such a goodmotivator, like a visual of like
(29:03):
going to get published.
You just need to keep workingon it.
And there's, you know, bodydoubling aspect to like we work
better when other people aroundus are working.
So I would sit next to someoneelse with a laptop, yeah else
(29:27):
with a laptop.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
Um, yeah, gosh, I I've never thought of that, or
or I mean, I don't know if Ihave the opportunity I guess as
much to to do that, but maybe Icome make him sit on my computer
next to me and do stuff.
I'll create my own.
Doubling.
That's funny.
What is your therapy like?
What do you offer and what doesthat look like?
(29:50):
If people are interested inlooking for services, what do
you usually?
Yes, teen stuff is like so huge.
I have teens, I get it stuff islike so huge.
Speaker 4 (30:06):
I have teens, I get it.
Yeah, no, it really, you know,just depends on the family,
obviously depends on the age.
You know, if kid is younger,more seven, you know I work with
them.
But I also work a lot with theparents Because a lot of times,
especially the kids that come into see me have behavioral
issues and the parents areunsure about how to manage their
(30:27):
, their kids behaviors at home.
They might have like outburstsand maybe undiagnosed ADHD or
autism and they, you know, theyaren't really sure like how to
get their kid to comply withcommands, like if they tell them
to do something their kid mightnot listen, or they feel like
they need to ask 70 times beforetheir kid actually like follows
(30:51):
through, and then that's reallyfrustrating to the parent.
It's very overwhelming.
That's more younger kids, um, alot of behavioral stuff, a lot
of behavioral stuff, and thenwith older teens it kind of
depends.
But you know, for a lot of myneurodivergent clients I start
very simple and I just kind ofsee where they're at in the
(31:14):
beginning and I try to be veryconcrete.
So you know, we'll work on likeemotion identification and you
know what are the emotions.
Let's start with that.
You know we'll work on likeemotion identification and you
know what are the emotions.
Let's start with that.
You know when you identify.
How do you know when you feelanxious?
What are some clues?
How do you know when someoneelse feels anxious?
What are some clues, like tyingthat into.
(31:34):
You know the social aspect.
What do people do with theirface when they're anxious?
Like, what do they do withtheir bodies?
Why do you think they do that?
It's interesting, I think, tolearn.
It's interesting to learn itwhen you're a teen too.
But yeah, and then, moving fromthere, like, what's a thought?
How does the thought look?
Like?
It could look different fordifferent people.
(31:56):
Sometimes they can be sentenceslike how can you try to figure
out what someone's thinking?
This, you know, it seems likeintuitive for people, but not
for people who are nerd virgins.
You need to really like spellit out.
And I find that because again,it kind of it differs With ADHD
it's not so much a disorder oflike knowledge.
(32:18):
Like people with ADHD generallyknow this stuff.
It's just harder for them inthe moment to carry out the
right, right response.
So they end up getting introuble or people don't like
them or they get rejected,whereas with autism it really is
just, you know, mostly from myexperience it's a knowledge
deficit.
They just don't know Like, butthen once someone teaches it to
(32:40):
them, like they really do greatin a sense, like it's easier.
I mean, I'm not saying this oneis easier to be autistic than
that, but I'm just saying totreat it, to work on that, on an
knowledge deficit, if you justteach it and then you know the
impulsivity isn't necessarilythere, um, then you know they're
able to to apply it very well.
Speaker 3 (33:01):
Exactly.
And nowadays, when we're seeingthis combination which I'm sure
you see commonly in the ADHDkind of mixture of the two,
let's?
Because a lot of my audienceare in the autistic community
(33:27):
and, let's be honest, I mean I'mADHD, my husband, my kids, like
the whole gamut.
So let's talk about.
I didn't maybe.
I don't know if you could sayidentifiers, if you will, I
don't know if that's the rightword to use, and also we'll get
to misconceptions in a minute.
Speaker 4 (33:44):
Identifiers meaning like how do you?
Speaker 3 (33:46):
when somebody is curious about if their child
might be neurodivergent?
What are the kind of standardsthat you would use to say the
fall within these guidelines?
I don't know, cause you're notusing the DSM anymore.
What does that look like foryou?
As you know, the uh, the doctorwho has to make these decisions
(34:11):
on the diagnosis.
No, I'm using the.
Speaker 4 (34:13):
DSM like to diagnose, yeah, yeah.
So right now we're on the DSM5TR.
It doesn't mean I agree withall of the stuff that's in there
A hundred percent.
Right, okay, as a psychologistI have to use it.
Interesting, okay, it dependson the practice.
You know like I'm in privatepractice right now.
(34:34):
So technically, like, we don'thave to.
It's like if it's a private payclient you don't have to
include a diagnosis.
But it's hard for me, the way Iwas trained.
You know like I have a lot oftesting, like psychological
testing, in my background Rightnow.
I don't do it just because Idon't prefer it, like I just
don't really like doing testing,although I technically can, but
I like therapy more.
So I'd rather use my time onthat, okay, but I'm
(34:58):
knowledgeable about it and sothe way I frame my interventions
is with diagnosis, diagnoses.
You know like it's.
It's hard for me to, you know,come up with a plan if I don't
have a name for it.
Speaker 3 (35:09):
Exactly.
Speaker 4 (35:10):
Yeah, so I have a name, but it's loose.
You know what I mean.
Like name, with flexibility,like um, you know, with ADHD,
for instance.
I'm not like a believer in the.
A lot of people say what typeare you Like?
This is not a horoscope youknow, it's like?
what type?
First of all, it's not a type,it's a presentation.
(35:32):
The word has been changedbecause there's so much room for
change over, especially overtime.
You know, mostly kids will getdiagnosed when they're really
young with like predominantlyhyperactive, impulsive
presentation, or combined, andthen it might change to like
inattentive I hate that word toolike as you make it into
(35:53):
adulthood.
For me it's like do you haveADHD or do not?
Yeah, because if it can change,then it's just symptoms, right,
like your symptoms can changeover time, but the core
diagnosis is the same.
You know, with autism we havedifferent levels.
That's different, you know.
It's like talking about like,like the level of supports that
(36:15):
the person needs.
That makes so much more senseto me, you know, it would make
more sense to me to have ADHD bea bunch of symptoms and the
person just needs to meetcriteria for ADHD and then what
level of support do they need?
And then the thought that itcould be on a spectrum also
makes sense to me.
With ADHD, like, why do wetreat one like this but the
(36:36):
other one differently?
But it doesn't matter, becauseit's still.
It helps me understand, youknow, and create interventions
regardless, even though thereare, you know, I feel like these
gaps.
Speaker 3 (36:49):
Which is nice that you get to individualize them
because, like you said, it'sgoing to be different for every
family that's stepping in theircultural differences,
experiences, family dynamics.
So much, so much, so much to gointo that how you would, you
know, help one family.
So that's.
That's a lot of work, andthat's that's exciting, though,
(37:10):
and like creative, in a way,that you get to put these
strategies in place and then seethem through.
Speaker 4 (37:20):
So yeah, humans are complicated, you know.
That's why I and a lot of othertherapists would probably agree
that AI is not going to takeover our profession.
Like, we are not threatened atall.
It's not a job for robots, yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
Yeah, I mean it's great for organizing paperwork,
but it really it's not going to,especially when we're,
especially especially when we'reunderstanding more and more
right my vocabulary when we'relearning more and more about the
(37:57):
presentations, like you said,of autistic individuals, of
individuals of ADHD,neurodivergent apraxia.
We're learning so much and it'scoming to, you know, there's
lights being shown and we cankind of have a little bit of a
glimpse of how we can bettersupport those other, you know,
(38:18):
members of our society that havebeen, in years past let's just
be honest forgotten and pushedaside, and that's painful.
So how do you see themisconceptions of ADHD?
What do people normally have asa misconception?
Speaker 4 (38:42):
Yeah, I mean the most common response is like, well,
no, she can't have ADHD, she'snot like bouncing around
everywhere, like she's able tosit still, or you know, for boys
, if you're thinking about boysa common misconception.
That used to be, and I hear itsometimes still.
But like they'll say how can hehave ADHD?
Like that would be.
That would mean he can't payattention and he can sit with
his video games for hours.
Have ADHD?
Like that would be.
That would mean he can't payattention, he can sit with his
(39:02):
video games for hours.
I remember hearing that morelike early on in my career when
I was a student and now less.
Like people are more aware thatthat's not a good rationale for
a kid not to have ADHD.
You can be like hyper-focusedand really interested on
something and sit through it forhours, just like someone who's
autistic can, exactly.
(39:24):
But if it's not interesting,that's the problem and that's
why I hate the word inattention,because it's not inattentive,
if anything, it's anoverabundance of attention.
I know I've heard Dr NedHallowell describe it like that
and a bunch of other ADHDexperts describe it in that way
(39:44):
and I even boil it down like inmy book I have a chapter on,
like the neurobiology andneurotransmitters and basically
you know I talk about how, likebrain structure is important in
understanding ADHD, as I'm surealso autism and other forms of
neurodiversity.
(40:04):
But what seems to be morerelevant is brain function, like
what is happening in the brain,and it's the over communication
and the way I describe it is.
I only remember this becauseI've been looking at this for so
long now.
But my, my book, like themanuscript and editing and
whatever, but I wrote it waslike um, there's like a 1920
(40:25):
style, a great Gatsby party inyour brain while you're trying
to do your homework.
It's like there's this push andpull, you know, between
different brain networks, youknow, and overactivity it's over
.
There's a party in there, youknow, and that's what's.
There's too much attention, youknow, you're paying attention
(40:48):
to this thought.
That's irrelevant, you know,while also trying to focus on
what's in front of you.
The other thing is Dr RussellBarkley talks about this but
like, adhders are fielddependent learners, meaning that
you know, if you think aboutlike working memory, for example
, working memory is the abilityto hold information in mind and
(41:11):
then manipulate it.
So, like mental math requiresreally good working memory
skills and we're just not goodat that.
And so field dependent learningbasically means that you're
like a visual learner and you'relearning and taking in
information from yourenvironment, from the stuff
that's around you, and then kindof making little calculations
(41:31):
in your head trying tounderstand it.
But you need to have that stuffin front of you and that's why
we suck at mental math.
Why we suck, you know, atmental math.
But we could sit and you know,with a calculator.
If we're given paper and pencil, it's a little bit easier for
us If it's visual and active andyou know we could put it down
on something in front of us.
So if we're field dependentlearners and we're so in tune
(41:54):
with what's happening around usbecause it's hard to keep all of
it in our heads, think aboutwhat happens, like when you're
trying to focus on that textbookor reading that one paragraph
in front of you, like there's somuch to look at in the world,
so you're absorbing all thisinformation plus all the
information that's distractingyou in your brain, plus trying
(42:15):
to focus on the paragraph infront of you, so there's only
you know.
I mean people talk about doinglike alternative therapies, like
how the hell are you going touse an alternative therapy for
that you know, you have to.
You know there's nothing betterthat's going to help it than
medication.
If that makes people angry,then you know that's fine.
That's just what the researchshows.
Speaker 3 (42:38):
No, I'm glad you said that, cause that was weird.
I was going to bring that upbecause I really like um to show
both sides of that, because Ipersonally, you know, don't want
to look into medications, but Ibelieve that it is so important
for those who are interestedand who do have that let's talk
(43:01):
about the types of medicationsthat do help, and I completely
believe in it.
I just don't want it for myself, and isn't that what it comes
down to?
It's really our own free will,personal journey experience,
whatever you want to call it.
But yeah, I definitely wantedto touch on medication because I
(43:22):
completely respect that and Ithink that people that get mad
about it don't have the abilityto stand outside and see both
sides, and maybe that's one ofmy superpowers.
Speaker 4 (43:35):
Yeah, yeah, no, I agree with you.
At the end of the day it's apersonal decision.
I also am a very big advocateof educating yourself, and you
know when I say educatingyourself, like you said before,
like doing research, right, butlooking at Google scholar,
listening to the experts in thefield talk about it, but not
just the experts, right.
Like also talk to people, realhuman beings you know, who
(43:58):
struggle with the disorder, andask them what has helped you.
It's good to combine, I think,like anecdotal or like personal
evidence.
As a clinical psychologist, Ihave to say this, you know,
because you can look at thenumbers and research and not be
convinced, but if you can talkto a few people, in addition to
reading the research andlistening to experts for example
(44:19):
, dr Russell Barkley, dr EdwardHallowell a book that really
inspired me and moved me towrite my book was ADHD 2.0.
You can also listen to or readUnderstanding Girls with ADHD.
Those are both really goodplaces to start Focusing on ADHD
(44:40):
.
Of course, there's a lot ofresources for all the other
neurodevelopmental conditions,but I can speak the best you
know in terms of subfieldsbecause I just wrote a book
about ADHD in women.
But but yeah, I mean, you know,I mean when you look at the
research, it's like the numbersjust don't lie and I think
(45:03):
there's a lot of like fearmongering from the media
basically trying to, you know, Iguess, like disseminate
misinformation that stimulantmedications are scary or they're
like really bad for you.
But this is the most wellstudied psychotropic drug on the
(45:24):
market because of all of thenegative attention that it has
been given, um, and it's themost effective and it's the most
carefully studied.
And the other thing is that ishonestly that has pushed me and,
you know, I'm going to start mydaughter on medication and
she's young, she's seven.
(45:45):
But the reason I want to isbecause there's also abundant
research A lot of people don'tknow about, about something
called neuro promotion.
Well, russ Barkley calls itneuropromotion, but others have
called it like neuroprotection,but he said it's more
appropriately neuropromotionbecause basically there are
studies showing that when kidshave taken stimulant medications
(46:09):
to treat their ADHD overseveral years, then their brain
starts to develop to a pointwhere it starts to become
non-distinguishable from peoplewho are neurotypical.
So it's overall brain volumeand then also specific brain
(46:30):
areas that are affected by ADHD,such as the cerebellum, the
frontal lobe I don't know if itsaid also the basal ganglia.
I don't remember all thespecific areas, but there's
research looking at targetedlike brain areas that are
generally affected in peoplewith ADHD and they use like
(46:53):
fMRIs and um imaging techniquesto show that like there's change
and growth over time.
Uh, for those who takestimulant medications.
Speaker 3 (47:08):
And I think it's important.
I love that.
You said it several times.
It's important to find thingsthat have been studied, and I
think that you, especiallyhaving that kind of interest,
knowledge to find those things,is so important and so helpful
(47:29):
to your clients, because they'renot just getting something that
, yeah, this pharmaceuticalcompany is paying me, as this
doctor, to sell this drug that Idon't know anything about.
I, you know, don't know thatthat's ever happened, but, um,
you know, just in case.
No, I really like that.
You said that because I thinkthat that's an important factor
(47:49):
to take into when deciding whattype of medication you're going
to take for yourself or put yourchild on, especially and you
know, for us personally, we did,when my son was younger, tried
some, I'm trying to think, triedsome medications, but he didn't
, wouldn't take oral medications, and so your son.
Speaker 4 (48:13):
You said your son is autistic.
Speaker 3 (48:15):
Now Correct, yeah, and so yeah and yeah, and it was
he at the time was um had beendiagnosed.
Uh, we went to Goldberg, who isa psychologist here in in Utah.
I don't know if you've heard ofhim.
He's written a few books aswell, um, and did some work on
(48:35):
the DSM or something.
But he was a little proud ofhimself in his session with us
and telling us all of hisaccolades or whatever anyways.
But he also, you know, at thattime, diagnosed him um autism,
(48:56):
adhd, global developmental delay.
He does have a 99% workingmemory, so I think that you,
understanding that is like yay,somebody that understands it can
really like appreciate whatthat means.
Um, and there's, you know hewas like reading a one and
writing it too, two, and justlike memorizing everything he
(49:17):
ever saw.
And so it's.
It's been an exciting life withhim, although, yeah, and he but
he has a really hard time withreciprocity conversations or any
that kind of communication, soit doesn't provide him the
necessary skills and socialthings that he does.
(49:37):
But yeah, so I had a care Ithink it was like concerta or
something and, um, it was he.
We only did it for a couple ofdays Cause I, like I said he
wouldn't do a oral medicationand so we had to, like, shove it
in his mouth quickly, rightwhen he woke up.
The most horrifying, traumaticthing, yeah absolutely hated it
right, when he woke up the mosthorrifying, traumatic thing that
(50:00):
you've had to say Absolutelyhated it.
So I went to his pediatrician Isaid no, no, no, no, no, I
can't do this.
This is nope, I'm not doingthis.
We got to find somethingdifferent.
I said find something topical.
So she did, she went and shefound a patch that we'd put on
him and we were only doing itbecause he was going to start a
new school and we wanted just toput him on the best you know,
(50:21):
forward for him, um, but thosethings didn't end up working out
for him.
We did notice, like the firstday on the concert to he, I, I
filmed him, um, he was a totallydifferent person.
He spoke differently.
He, um, if it were to work forhim, I don't know, there's too.
(50:42):
It's too bad that there wereother ways that it.
You know, we could have done alittle bit more, but he ended up
not sleeping for four daysafter that first time that we
had him on that and, yeah, itwas just like a mess, trial and
error, mess, right, but he's 15now and that was when he was
like eight or nine.
So it's been years, uh, yearsago, since we've even tried
(51:04):
medications.
But I, with my daughter, Ithought, okay, she also, um, uh,
adhd, autism, dyslexia, and so,for her it was more, we went
for the dyslexia uh diagnosis.
For her it was more, we wentfor the dyslexia diagnosis,
which was obvious, and theteachers didn't think so,
because once again, she was asmart girl who could have these
(51:25):
wonderful conversations, who wasvery curious and imaginative.
And how could she be dyslexic?
Well, because she writesbackwards, pay attention,
teachers, so interesting.
But yeah, we finally got herhelp.
But just recently, um, forseventh grade, I thought, okay,
well, um, you know, we'll justwant to try to get her the most
(51:49):
support.
And so, um, I found asupplement that I won't, you
know, sell on here, cause Idon't know about it enough, but
it really seemed to help andjust like the focus, and just
really like, oh, I feel reallygood, didn't have any side
effects or anything.
So I took it for a couple oftimes too and I thought, wow,
(52:10):
this has really helped me getthrough my day.
So I think that finding whatworks for you is a fantastic
idea and not being afraid oftrying a medication for yourself
or your kiddo.
I was going to say that aboutyour son too.
Speaker 4 (52:27):
I was going to say it's better to try.
I think in most cases it'sbetter to try than not to try,
because now you've tried it andyou can say this is another way
not to screw in a light bulb.
You know this doesn't work andin most cases it's not going to
permanently damage your child.
I mean, I don't know of asingle story like that.
I'm sure they exist somewhere.
(52:47):
There's always a fluke.
You know case.
But yeah, it was stimulantmedication.
The nice thing about it is it'snot like an SSRI where you have
to take it for six weeks andthen know whether it's effective
or not.
You can take it one day andeven take a short acting one
like an Advil it's like fourhours long and then, if you
don't like it, don't take itagain.
Exactly.
Speaker 3 (53:08):
Exactly, Exactly and you know, like you said, maybe
give it a measured test run sothat you can see how it helps,
or or if it really messes, yeah.
Yeah, Like you said, don't doit, but I think it's important.
I think it's an important partof the discussion and part of
the understanding that it's nota one size fits all anything.
(53:32):
Our brains are different.
No matter whether you know,we're both ADHD, autistic,
whatever, like, our brains arestill going to be different.
Um, and it's.
I think that that's sofascinating.
What do you think?
What's your opinion about brainscanning and brains mapping and
scans?
That's how I got my information.
(53:53):
What's your opinion about that?
Speaker 4 (53:55):
I'm skeptical of it.
Um, I know that, um, catherineEllison.
So she's published a bookcalled buzz you're paying
attention.
She writes about her experiencewith um, finding out about her
own ADHD and treating her son,uh, who had ADHD, who has ADHD,
but now he's an adult, but hewas a kid in the book.
And so she goes and she doeslike I don't know, brain
(54:20):
scanning, brain mapping, they'relike, they're all the same.
I don't have personal experiencewith it, but I know that the
research is kind of like mixedand muddied in relation to it's
like validity.
You know, is it really kind ofmeasuring what we think it's
measuring validity?
You know, is it really kind ofmeasuring what we think it's
(54:40):
measuring?
Um, and so because of that, youknow, I'm skeptical.
Even with genes, you know therearen't any like genes we, or a
group of genes we couldspecifically point to and say
like here are the genes thatproduce, you know, adhd, or
really like any mental disorder,to my knowledge at least.
(55:00):
I think maybe it'll be a longtime before we get to a point
where we can really go down andsimplify them that way, or maybe
we won't ever get there at all.
Speaker 3 (55:14):
Isn't that the truth at all?
Isn't that the truth?
And I think, as a parent, therehas to be a time where, as a
doctor, don't ever give up thiscuriosity as why, where and how,
but as a parent, there comes atime where you have to just
accept your kid or yourself orwhatever.
I guess I'm speaking as aparent for a kid, of who they
(55:37):
are as a person and what thischild is like and their
personality, rather than justseeing them for the things that
they could change aboutthemselves to make them seem
better, whatever.
I think that's sad, but I thinkit's just a journey, whatever.
(55:59):
I think that's sad, but I thinkit's just a journey.
There's a lot of parentingstyles that are changing, a lot
of open discussions about how wecan do things differently, and
maybe it, you know, comes a lotfrom like you had kind of
mentioned before, from like youhad kind of mentioned before
(56:19):
living experience.
Have someone living thatexperience, especially as a
parent, as a woman who, you know, maybe has ADHD and you know,
hopefully it's a valid enoughthing that I can trust now.
And I think that between me andmy husband, a thing that we
(56:40):
always kind of said between eachother was Do you really
question things like this ifthey aren't In front of you?
Like you wouldn't go outsideand be like boy?
I wonder if the sky is redtoday or if it's gray, like it's
obviously gray.
You don't have to wonder ifit's a red day, like it's not.
(57:04):
But I think that people oftenfind themselves in this like oh,
I wonder, I wonder, and I thinkthat there's a little bit of
like curiosity to be had withthat question.
So be curious.
I think that's's a little bitof like curiosity to be had with
that question, so be curious.
Speaker 4 (57:20):
I think that's the best thing.
Yeah, I think I understand whatyou're saying.
You're saying that, like youknow, you want to feel certain
about certain things, but youalso need to be open to the
possibility that they're notnecessarily what you expect for
right to the possibility thatthey're not necessarily what you
expect for right?
Speaker 3 (57:47):
Yeah, or you know, and I'm maybe speaking from more
of like um, my kind of supportsystem and more um in an
autistic like um support.
So, like my mom neverquestioned in her life, like my
mom never questioned in her lifewhether or not she might be
near diverse, is she neartypical because of that?
I don't know.
I questioned my whole lifewhether I was typical for me.
(58:07):
That is telling to me that Ipossibly am not, because I don't
think I would questionotherwise.
I don't know if we have thatwithin us to be curious about.
I don't mean that was like asuper deep I don't even know
where it came from thing to sayit's pretty generalized and
probably totally, you know,could be falsified.
Speaker 4 (58:28):
But hey, today's Sarah's opinion all depends on,
I think, like you know, whatperspective you're looking at it
from.
You know, if you look at justmaterial, simple perspective, or
you're just like I need to getmy services covered by insurance
, then you need very clear cutanswers.
But as a human being, you know,my opinion is like what's so
(58:50):
bad with leaning intouncertainty and just saying like
I think a lot of things in lifeare just constructed Right?
I was having this conversationwith my husband the other day
too.
You know, like there aresubjects within psychology that
you know people will say likewell, you can't prove that, but
what can you prove?
You know?
I mean, even now the ADHDcriteria, like we're developed
(59:12):
on and for mostly little boys,are going to change.
Nothing is set in stone, youknow.
Things change.
Opinions change, ourunderstanding of the world
changes.
That's part of being alive andgrowing and you have to be okay
with that.
Speaker 3 (59:28):
I can't believe how much time has gone.
This has been such a greatconversation.
You know I want to make surethat everyone knows where to go
get the book.
Talk about the book.
Let's talk about what is thebook called.
I have a little preview here.
I'm going to pull it up reallyfast for everybody to see it.
(59:49):
Allow me to interrupt.
Tell us the oh.
The moment you decided like oh,this is my book, this is going
to be the title, this is, youknow, the cover.
I.
I kind of saw you get to gothrough that process, so yeah,
no, I'm really excited.
Speaker 4 (01:00:09):
It feels good when you pull it up.
I love that megaphone.
It's so cool, um, um, how do I,I don't know?
There were a lot of questionsthere.
Okay, a title, so actuallyinteresting.
Interestingly, the first title Ihad when I was pitching,
without an agent or anything, itwas sensitive and selective, uh
(01:00:29):
, because, again, I hate theword inattention, I think it's
more selective attention andbecause I wanted the book to be
about emotional dysregulationand, uh, sensitivities.
I think there's a big sensorycomponent to that.
So that was the title.
And then, you know, basicallythe agreement was that it's too
complicated and not catchyenough.
So then I came up with allow meto interrupt.
(01:00:51):
And then, together with, like,my team, we came up with this.
I got just reveals the emotionaltruth behind women's adhd, but
I like it.
It's like it's got that pizzazz, um and kind of um playfulness
to it, and I think you know mytone and, uh, the stories you
(01:01:12):
know in the book are they'replayful, they're serious, but
there's some funny elements tothem because we're funny,
absolutely.
They're funny, yeah, but it'salso, you know and I start
chapter one with this it's alsoinspired by the Taming of the
Shrew.
Okay, so the chat.
(01:01:33):
Each chapter is written kind oflike the wording of if I be
lost, best be where my sting.
So that's chapter one, and thenevery chapter is kind of worded
like that If I be lost, best Ifind my way like Shakespeare.
Speaker 3 (01:01:50):
It's fantastic.
I love that you brought yourown elements into it like that
and made it less clinical, ifyou will, and more just for an
everyday reader, and I love thatReally, really lovely.
And you can go to Dr GillyKhan's website here at
(01:02:10):
wwwdrgillykhancom, where you canfind links to the website, to
the website, links to the bookon the website and also links to
social media to go followsocial media.
The book is in pre-order rightnow, is that correct?
Speaker 4 (01:02:34):
Yeah, it's going to launch September 9th.
Say that again September 9th.
Yeah, it launches september 9th, but pre-order it because
that's how, basically,apparently I had to teach this
to myself, but too, but, um,that's how they know, like how
many you know copies to make.
So if you really you get a copyon time, then it makes more
sense to pre-order it.
Speaker 3 (01:02:55):
Love that and that will all be in the show notes so
that you can go and get thatinformation and go and support
and you know, if you're lookingfor therapy services in Atlanta
and you need to, or you lovedthis discussion and want to find
out more, please reach out.
What are your plans?
(01:03:17):
What you said?
You're onto the next thing.
Speaker 4 (01:03:21):
Yeah, so you know I have to discuss.
I pitched a couple ideas andI'm kind of kind of set on this
one idea, so hopefully it I cancarry it through.
But this is just like thoughts,you know, and hypothetical at
the moment.
But I'm really interested inADHD.
But I'm also really interestedin and one of my articles in
(01:03:42):
ADHD, like the women's magazine,is on this topic.
It's about like intuition, youknow gut feelings, consciousness
, and you know consciousness.
The question of consciousnessof, is it you know kind of?
You know consciousness, thequestion of consciousness of, is
it, you know, kind of, uh,limited to brain activity, or
(01:04:05):
could there be kind of likebeyond the brain, love?
Speaker 3 (01:04:09):
it.
I love that yeah, right up myalley if you ever want to have a
deep discussion with people,isn't it?
Is you really it really is,isn't it?
I think that it is definitelyso.
I I think that the way you kindof went about what I'm gonna
(01:04:29):
say this, that's great.
I love that.
Oh, I wish you all the best andI I'm really, really glad we
got to catch up and have thisamazing discussion today.
Any advice that you want togive to other women with ADHD
out there, since it seems likethat's something we just didn't
(01:04:49):
touch on?
Unfortunately, we'll have tohave another discussion about
that someday.
Speaker 4 (01:04:55):
Advice to women with ADHD.
Speaker 3 (01:04:58):
Yeah, what's your top kind of advice that you would
give?
Speaker 4 (01:05:04):
They don't know you as well as you know yourself.
That's what I would say.
You know, because other peopleare, can be judgmental and they
can misunderstand you, but youknow deep down that what kind of
a person you are and what yourintentions are and what your
goals are, and don't let otherpeople stop that.
Speaker 3 (01:05:22):
Love that.
That's fantastic.
Thank you so much.
It's really just been such apleasure and I look forward to
keep following you and watchingyour journey and getting the
book and reading all of theexciting and fun things and,
yeah, I'm really looking forwardto it.
(01:05:43):
So thank you so much for yourtime today and I look forward to
staying in touch.
Speaker 4 (01:05:47):
Of course, yeah, same to you.
Thank you so much for having meon the show today, sarah.
Speaker 2 (01:06:05):
In the heart of a city.
She's shining bright.
Oh yeah.
Stories of love and courage allthroughout the night.
Her voice resonating an anthemfor all.
Stories of love and courage allthroughout the night.
Her voice resonating an anthemfor all.
Through the trials and thestrife, she answers the call.
A mother and a fighter,breaking barriers and strife.
(01:06:27):
Her love is her guide.
She'll never hide.
She's changing the world foryou in the light.
(01:06:53):
She stands for family.
I've kissed them all.
The movement of compassion.
Waves will soar.
Podcast together.
Symphony of support In lifeChanging report.
She's changing the world foryou With a heart that's fierce
and strong.
(01:07:13):
Empathies and melodies.
A journey we all belong To hereyes.
(01:07:54):
Thank you.
We all belong.
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