May 20, 2025 • 49 mins
Discovering you're twice exceptional—both gifted and neurodivergent—can be transformative, especially when diagnosed as an adult. In this fascinating conversation, Sara welcomes authors Deb Gennarelli and John Truitt to explore the complex world of twice exceptionality (2E) through their book "Navigating Neurodiversity."
John shares his remarkable journey of being diagnosed at 45 as both gifted and on the autism spectrum with dyslexia, dysgraphia, and dyscalculia. Unlike many narratives in the neurodiversity space, John describes a childhood where he excelled socially, becoming a class leader who dated "pretty, smart girls" and never experienced bullying. Yet his academic experience reflected classic 2E patterns—excelling tremendously in certain subjects while struggling inexplicably in others, facing accusations of laziness despite his obvious intelligence.
Deb brings her 30+ years of expertise as a gifted intervention specialist, explaining how twice exceptional students often fall into three categories: those whose gifts outshine their challenges, those whose challenges mask their gifts, and those who appear deceptively "average" when their exceptional abilities and struggles effectively cancel each other out. This insight proves crucial for parents and educators trying to identify and support 2E children.
The conversation takes a fascinating turn as John discusses workplace struggles that led him to entrepreneurship. "I've tried to fit into the office environment... it just doesn't work for me," he explains, articulating a common experience among highly capable neurodivergent adults. He poignantly observes the irony that many historical figures who shaped our modern world—from Einstein to Steve Jobs—were likely twice exceptional themselves: "It baffles me sometimes that we create the very world that we're not accepted in."
Whether you're a parent of a 2E child, an educator, or someone discovering their own neurodivergent traits, this episode offers invaluable insights into navigating the beautiful complexity of twice exceptional minds. As John powerfully states, "I don't want to be cured, I want to be understood."
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The SJ Childs Show is Backford's 13th season.
Join Sarah Brafford and the SJChilds Show team as they explore
the world of autism and sharestories of hope and inspiration.
This season we're excited tobring you more autism summits
featuring experts and advocatesfrom around the world.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Go to sjchildsorg hey everyone.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
Just wanted to give you an update.
The second annual InternationalAutism Summit was such a
success.
Thank you to our sponsors andour amazing speakers.
If you're interested in seeingany of those sessions, go to my
YouTube channel, the SG ChildShow the live tab and you can
see each day and their sessionsare timestamped in the
(00:58):
description.
Hope to see you guys there.
Speaker 4 (01:03):
Hi and welcome to the SG Child Show today.
I'm really really thrilled tobring two incredible guests
which how exciting is that?
You guys you know normally getto hear me just have one
conversation back and forth, butwe're going to have a wonderful
trifecta conversation todaywith my guests, deb and John,
(01:25):
and I'm an autism summit in thepast and this last you would.
You would have seen Harry'sname all up and down in that
comment section just givingaccolades and credit and
connections.
She's just a master ofconnections.
So, yes, love that.
Deb, thank you so much for yourtime and for being here today.
(01:45):
Tell us a little bit aboutyourself and introduction and
then John will jump right intoyou.
Speaker 5 (01:52):
Okay, well, sarah, thank you so much for having
John and myself on your podcast.
We're very excited to talk toyou about our book, navigating
Neurodiversity.
My background is as a giftedintervention specialist for over
30 years in public and privateschools and I worked with gifted
and twice exceptional studentsand that included not just
(02:15):
working with the students buttheir families, helping them
navigate really tough situationsin schools where often the
child was not being servicedcorrectly and it led to a lot of
issues or challenges for thechild.
So that is where my passion is.
I've left the classroom after40 years and now I'm a gifted ed
(02:36):
2E consultant with my company,smart Strategies.
I've written a book on twiceexceptional boys and then I met
and made a lifelong friend withJohn Truitt and that's how we
wrote Navigating Neurodiversity.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
Oh, I love that and, john, I'm just honored that you
are here today and lookingforward to getting to know you
better.
Tell us a little bit about howit started for you, your
background.
Speaker 6 (03:04):
It's kind of hard to pick a place to start, but in
19,.
Speaker 4 (03:08):
You know, I'm just kidding.
Speaker 6 (03:11):
No, so I'm currently 52.
I was diagnosed at 45 as twiceexceptional, so gifted also on
the spectrum, as well asdyslexic dysgraphia, dyscalculia
.
But I have advanced strengthsin applying math.
So I calculate math at the 10thgrade level and I apply it at
the grad school level, which isa real fun one if you can
(03:32):
imagine going through schoolwith that one.
But yeah, so I had a verydifferent experience than most.
I was never bullied in school.
I was often a class leader,played sports, dated, you know,
pretty girls, pretty and smartgirls and kind of had a very
different experience.
The one I can relate to that'svery common with twice
(03:55):
exceptionality is I got the tryharder or you're being lazy
because I'm blowing it out ofthe, you know, off the chart in
an AP honors English class, yetI'm struggling in algebra.
So I had that real imbalance.
But very long story short wentto a really good boarding school
(04:15):
in the Southeast, came back togo to university, went for a
year and a half, decided to jointhe army, became a combat medic
in the army, came back out.
My dad and grandfather are bothdoctors and they had kind of a
business side of medicine that Iwon't go into but got into that
.
Ended up in Australia at 29,listing a company on the stock
exchange, a medical devicecompany.
Relocated to CEO of that in theUS, got really tired of
(04:40):
corporate and very much relatedto 2E.
I wasn't bullied as a kid but Iguess if you would call it
bullying or I would call itduping, that really happened to
me a lot in the boardroom I'd bethe one that does all the work
and has all these creative ideasand implements these strategies
.
Yeah, and I would get kudosverbally.
But then you go and look at thepacket and I'm like, well, why
(05:02):
Not to say I wasn't making greatmoney?
But I would look at it and go,wait a minute, what compared to
that what I've done.
So that really started to takeme off.
Started my own business they'resleep and snoring diagnostic
and therapy companies.
Started that in Dallas.
Got three pretty significantclinics up, kind of moved to
Durango to semi-retire.
I had the last business turnunfavorably financially so kind
(05:26):
of took a little bit of a periodthere in 2018.
Got diagnosed, spent a lot oftime with my psychologist,
seeing other patients with him.
Really got you know, reallywent super deep.
Met Deb.
Wrote the book we co-authoredthat taught two kids for about a
year and a half and then sixmonths ago started with another
(05:46):
startup.
So I'm in about a month, twoand a half of operations on a
brand new startup that we'redoing here in Denver.
Speaker 4 (05:54):
Welcome to the life of serial entrepreneurship, as I
like to call it for myself.
Speaker 6 (06:01):
And I can't do it any other way.
I've tried to fit into theoffice environment.
I know there's lots of thingsthat can be done.
It just doesn't work.
It doesn't work for me.
I'm not a control freak, but Ido have to have a full view of
the company to be able to,instead of just, hey, you're in
operations, I need to seefinance operations, marketing,
and you just, unless it's yourbusiness, you just don't really
(06:23):
have the opportunity to do thatand you just, unless it's your
business, you just don't reallyhave the opportunity to do that,
yeah.
So yeah, I definitely I can.
That's another thing I canrelate to the workplace
struggles with the quote unquotehigh functioning, twice
exceptional person.
I can very, very much empathizewith that.
Speaker 4 (06:47):
And I think it's great that you have this
different perspective, becauseyou're right, I think that
oftentimes it is kind of thestory of the struggling bullied
child or whatnot, not that thatisn't, you know, relevant and
doesn't truly happen, more thannot.
But I think it's alwaysimportant to have the other side
.
For those that can relate tothat side of life, like my
husband and I, for example, alot of the same things resonate,
(07:11):
you know, throughout our lives,and especially finally when we
found each other and we're ableto have this incredible
intelligent conversation withsomeone finally and thought, oh
my God, here you are, finally,but how did you two come to meet
and what did it look like?
Kind of meeting the minds anddeciding a book.
Speaker 6 (07:36):
From my end, deb obviously needs to give her side
of that.
But from my end I had decidedthat I very much wanted to write
a book and I was looking onLinkedIn.
I do a lot on LinkedIn, Ibelieve Deb does as well and we
just came across each other andI sent her an email and said hey
look, you know, here's kind ofa very brief synopsis of what I
have going on and what I want todo.
(07:56):
Would you like to co-author abook?
And her immediate response wasI just finished one.
And her immediate response wasI just finished one.
But no, we connected there,immediately, hit it off and kind
of understood.
Obviously, with her extensivebackground and twice exceptional
education, she knew how tocommunicate with me and it was
(08:22):
yeah, I don't think it really Icouldn't have done it by myself
because of the lack of structure, and I don't think I could have
done it with someone who didn'thave an in-depth, thorough
background with that.
So that's my side, deb Go.
Speaker 5 (08:31):
Right.
Well, you know, as John said,when I opened that LinkedIn
message and at first I thoughtthis is a parent reaching out to
me to talk about their two-weekchild, because the business
that I have now, sarah, is isthat, you know, parents contact
me from around the world.
But then when I messaged himback, I realized he's he's
(08:54):
talking about himself.
So we actually got on the phoneand I told him yes, I've, I
just finished a book, it justgot published, and to sit down
and write another one, it's ayear or more process from start
to finish, and then you have togo through trying to have it
published, and that could go onfor months.
So I was like, oh, I don't knowif I'm ready for this, but it
(09:17):
took me, I think, twoconversations with John and I
was all in on and I was all in.
He just, you know, as he toldyou his short summary of his
life, I was just so in awe.
I just thought I have to get toknow this man better and his
story needs to be told.
I think it.
(09:38):
He and I both agreed and hecertainly was the first in the
place to say you know, there arenot a lot of resources out
there on adults that are twiceexceptional.
When I first started my careerin gifted ed, there weren't a
lot of books on giftedness.
Now there are a plethora ofthem and even twice
exceptionality and organizationslike SANG, and then things that
(10:00):
we talked about Harry O'Kelly,and there are a lot of people
out there doing some great workbut there weren't a lot on
adults.
So I was like two thumbs up andJohn and I dove in and it was.
It was just a phenomenalexperience.
You know, I'm used to being theteacher, although my students
have always taught me the most,but John taught me more than I
(10:20):
ever helped him with.
You know, it was just amazing,an amazing experience.
I said it was a gift from God,but I love that connection.
Speaker 4 (10:32):
It was really.
It really was too.
I mean, I'm sure that it was.
You know, somehow I am notreligious but very spiritual.
I think that we timing it's allabout kind of timing, and the
right things happen at the righttimes.
They you can't force them, theydon't, then they don't fit and
they don't work.
And oh, I know that feeling,john.
(10:54):
What is your passion behind?
What do you want people to getout of the book?
Speaker 6 (11:03):
Well, first of all, just a broader understanding
that TUI exists.
That's kind of.
The first thing is like this iswhat twice exceptionality is.
The second thing is, unlike youknow, they used to say in
autism that it goes away.
Right, the only kids haveautism.
It never goes away.
And that being twice exceptional, I view it very much as
(11:25):
something to accept and justacknowledge, and I'm not like a
real lefty kind of person and Iknow that like words, like you
know, oh, and that can sound allfruity.
No, I just mean it's verysimple.
If I were to condense it into asentence is I don't want to be
cured, I want to be understood.
And I see, in the autismcommunity I'd love to talk some
(11:47):
RFK with you later on if we havetime.
But but within the autismcommunity I don't really put the
split where you know the DSMdoes to.
To me that's just really it'snot not what it is.
I think DSM four had it rightwhen they had what used to be
called Asperger's, which whichoften twice exceptionality kind
(12:07):
of put them on the side.
So I really don't look at italong those lines.
I look at it along a cure oraccept line.
So you have, you have parentsof quote unquote low functioning
, and I hate that term.
Even you know nonverbal kidswho they like you said that
believe it's a gift from God andthey love every moment of it.
I understand there are a lot ofparents on that side of the
(12:29):
spectrum that don't and canunderstand.
I can understand, as a parentmyself, why they would be
seeking a cure because itpresents itself as a pathology.
I'm very much on the other sideof it with, regardless of where
the child or adult adult is onthe spectrum, it's to me that's
the delineator is do you want tobe cured or do you want to be
(12:49):
accepted?
Speaker 4 (12:51):
yeah, there's a big um, a big divide where it comes
to inclusion and belonging, andI think that that's um a big
kind of everybody.
We all just want to belong andthat we can be included.
But that doesn't mean that westill belong there and that
doesn't mean we're feeling likewe belong there.
(13:12):
And I'm saying we cause I alsoam late diagnosed.
I'm not speaking out of placehere, but and when our you know
I grew up as my parents didn't,they were business and career
minded.
I was an only child and forthem it was just keep her at
(13:35):
school and after school programs, keep her busy.
You know that was it.
There was no actual oh, she isgifted.
What we could do, this, wecould do so much more.
It was just kind of.
You know, here's the bottomline, good luck.
My dad always used to say keepyour nose clean, good luck.
See, you know he was in themilitary, so that's it.
(13:57):
And so, yeah, I thinkoftentimes, as for me, you know
that, building that independencequite early and then also
having that struggle of not everbeing understood or feeling
like I belonged, even though Ididn't struggle with, you know,
making friends, it would looklike to to others, but you know,
(14:21):
my mom would always say to mewhy don't you, why aren't you
friends with these group ofgirls, why aren't you this, why
aren't you that?
And there was always a deficitof of what you were, you know,
the extra, extra drama queen.
That's what it was and I, andso I love that.
Today, when people talk aboutdisclosure and talk about
(14:42):
diagnosis and things, I am so,you know, on the side of
independence and freedom inhaving it and then getting the
support and then not having thisother who you might be, that
society decides are thesedegradating?
You know associations with you,hibernating.
(15:07):
You know associations with you,but it's really tricky.
But my son so I never knewanything, but our son was
quickly understood.
He was reading at one andwriting at two and there was not
a doubt in any.
You know, there was no doubt inmy mind, but there was in
everyone else's, and so it'sjust.
It's so important that we kindof get the highlight and the
(15:29):
spotlight on 2E individuals.
So let's kind of break thisdown for listeners that might
not even know now what we'retalking about.
Deb, what is the 2E definition?
If you will?
How would you describe that forour listeners?
Speaker 5 (15:50):
Right.
So, sarah, twice exceptionalityrefers to an individual that is
gifted by.
There are many definitions ofgiftedness.
In the United States,giftedness is one who works well
above, if you want to sayacademically, if we're talking
about school age well abovetheir same age peers.
(16:12):
As you said, your son wasreading, you know well, before
entering elementary school.
You know I have clients whohave children that are four
years old doing math at sixthgrade level.
So a twice exceptional studentis gifted, or twice exceptional
adult is gifted.
And then there's some learningdifference or differences, as
(16:33):
John mentioned.
It could be dysgraphia,dyslexia, autism, it could be
combination.
The interesting thing aboutidentifying twice exceptional
students in schools is thatthere's three categories.
One is that the giftednessshines right through and so the
child comes into school andthey're so bright and teachers
(16:56):
are like oh, what you know, mygoodness, this child is, is
doing this so, so advancedly andso easily and doesn't need
repetitions of the skill work.
And what do I do with him orher?
But the learning differencedoesn't show itself readily.
And then there's the child whothe learning difference is,
right out in front, glaring, andthe teacher or adults in that
(17:19):
child's life don't even realizethat the child is gifted and
I've had many students in thatcategory.
When the child was identified bya school district as gifted,
the parents and or teachers andor administrators went gifted
what I never would have thoughthe or she was gifted.
So that learning difference andthose behaviors that kind of
(17:40):
come with that reallyovershadowed the giftedness.
And then the third category arethose children who the
giftedness and learningdifferences really kind of just
cancel each other out.
The child appears average,quote, unquote, average in the
classroom.
So as the child gets older inschool and, for example, the
grades start dropping becausethey have either a language
(18:02):
difference you know writing isdifficult, reading is difficult
or math is difficult, then it'slike wait a minute, why is this
just showing up now?
So eventually it kind ofpresents itself.
But that third category, thosechildren just look like they're
average, not gifted, don't havelearning differences, just send
them on through, don't havelearning differences just send
(18:25):
them on through.
Speaker 4 (18:26):
You know Absolutely, John, what is some advice you
like would like parents to lookfor no-transcript.
Speaker 6 (18:35):
Well, I think very early what parents need to look
for and this doesn'tcontraindicate anything.
But there's the classic mold ofokay, your child was developing
until two, then went nonverbal.
So that's what autism is.
No, I mean I was, and Deb and Igo into this in depth in the
(18:56):
book.
She interviewed a lot of myfamily and friends.
I never crawled, I wentstraight to walking.
I was speaking in completesentences at roughly nine months
old.
Similar with the reading I wasreading in kindergarten.
I was reading at the sixth orseventh grade level and I said I
was dyslexic and I found outthis is actually fairly common
on the spectrum.
(19:16):
And I found out this isactually fairly common on the
spectrum.
You start off as hyperlexic.
So I was hyperlexic.
And then, as far as reading,reader, but I comprehend 98, 99%
of it, which is obviouslyreally high.
(19:45):
I do not have a photographicmemory.
I do have an associative memory.
So when we're talking aboutsomething that I remember,
essentially movies pop into myhead and I can kind of roll and
watch them, but it's not thetype of thing you know.
Wait a minute, page 600 ofTolstoy, it says exactly this.
It's not that it's veryassociative.
But what I'd like you to know,is really that big difference
that if they're seeing thosedevelopmental milestones happen
(20:08):
quickly, it's not only this isthe kid gifted.
In my opinion, it's very, verylikely they're twice exceptional
.
Speaker 4 (20:16):
Oh, absolutely, and I love when you're saying that
because I it's when you know andyou can see in your family and
be able to give the support's 15now, and we really aren't doing
anything specific, but we'llget to that.
But when Harry told me aboutthis community that existed, of
(20:51):
all of these twice exceptionalparents and people, and I had
built this community in theautism world, if you will, for a
decade and it was really soeye-opening and just this, like,
oh my gosh, there's anothercommunity that we are part of
(21:12):
that we didn't even know we hadall of these friends that we
could, you know, relate to andhave these ideas from, because
there's not many conversationsyou can have with a person who
understands, you know, and notin my case, but for DJ, like
what it was like to, like John,you know, be doing algebra in
(21:34):
first grade.
That's why we were turned awayfrom public school and that's
why they said we can no longerhelp you.
We don't have algebra for firstgraders, like, and I remember
we were, you know, went to aspecialized autism school, um,
and DJ has developmental delayand there's.
So there's a lot of differencesas far as, like his rep, uh,
(21:58):
reciprocity is hardly at all,and so it's tricky and there's a
hard.
It's hard to know how tomeasure, I guess, those types of
things.
But, like John said, he actuallyhas a photographic memory, so
the way we were able to see itwas in the recreation of the
things that he was showing us sothat we could help get him to
(22:20):
sport.
But what a hard journey it waswhen he was little and no one
believed us essentially.
You know, we went to thepediatrician and said oh my gosh
, he's reading, he's doing this.
And the guy said that'sridiculous.
Like he's not making eyecontact, he is not verbalized,
(22:41):
you know, making the verbal cuesthat he should be making, he is
not pointing like these are thethings.
And I was like no, no, no, no,no, but he's reading.
You know, I had a totallydifferent view of this.
I guess that's why it's a goodthing he's my kid.
Speaker 5 (22:58):
I will say, sarah, it's, it's super important.
You, you know your child bestand to advocate for him or her.
It's.
It's challenging, especiallywhen you come up against
professionals like medicalprofessionals or educators,
administrators, who you reallyyou assume and we get in trouble
when we assume.
But when you assume that theyunderstand what you're talking
(23:21):
about and you assume thatthey're going to believe you.
And so I again, when I taught,as well as now, I see your
situation all the time, and sothat's where it's really
important to be an advocate andand give them the right language
, the right questions to ask andreally help them navigate, like
(23:45):
I said early on in the podcast,to navigate those very tricky
waters that you, as a parent,experience with a two-week kid,
exactly.
Speaker 4 (23:56):
And, john, I really respect and appreciate what how
you talked about kind ofworkplace, because I think that
I just, you know, had thisreally great summit and some of
my advocates are twiceexceptional and they really do
have some struggles in theworkplace and have a hard time
(24:17):
understanding why in theworkplace and have a hard time
understanding why, like, I havetwo master's degrees and you
can't keep me employed, likewhat you know, and I hear this
all the time from them and so Ireally appreciate that you
shared that part of it.
Is there mentors or anything inthat kind of early time that
helped you understand?
Early time that helped youunderstand, like to grasp onto
(24:41):
things and, you know, get into abetter situation?
Speaker 6 (24:46):
Well, I was never in a bad situation.
I was never in a bad situationand again, kind of like being
twice exceptional.
And Deb can comment on this mylife.
If I were just a normalneurotypical and you looked at
my life, it's kind of like, ohmy God, really, my dad, who, as
I mentioned, was a clinician I'mtrying to do this without
(25:09):
getting into all kinds ofdetails but self-limited his
medical practice to a certaintype of specialty and started
lecturing all over the US andthen all over Europe so I forget
the exact Deb from the book,but I think it was by age 10,.
I've been to 40 states, howevermany different you know places,
predominantly in Europe, and Itell you that, to tell you,
those were my mentors.
(25:29):
They were the doctors.
They were you know the doctorsthat learned all the clinical
stuff from the sales reps thatwould come to you know display
on sales booths.
I hung out with them.
I learned how to not just sellbut really run a sales team,
hearing from them what theyliked about their boss and
didn't like about their boss.
So everything with me.
(25:50):
It's very, very hands-on, veryhands-on learning.
Later in my career I ended upduring the IPO.
I went straight into theC-suite as the chief marketing
officer.
So again, it was like startingmy own business.
I didn't have to go throughthat corporate ladder and I
found that when you'reparticularly in a startup,
particularly a publicly heldstartup, people don't care.
(26:12):
They don't care where you wentto school, they don't care if
you're quirky, it's basically ifyou can get it done.
And when you're dealing withthat very top echelon of people,
they love teaching and I loveasking questions.
So that's really kind of how Ideveloped, you know, going
through that whole thing andagain in school pardon me,
(26:35):
unlike what happened with you,that they didn't believe or
anything else I come from asmall Texas town.
Fathers are really well-knowndoctor, grandfathers are really
well-known doctor.
There was never any doubt oflike am I intelligent or not?
And a couple of quick things.
Which is funny, my discographyobviously started displaying,
you know, presenting very early.
Well, the reason John has badhandwriting is he's going to be
(26:57):
a doctor.
I love that One second.
Speaker 4 (27:05):
I actually worked in both medical and legal, so I
completely like appreciate thatso much.
Speaker 6 (27:12):
So yeah, so that was kind of on the okay right side,
but the other part of it it wasbefore all these testing of
teachers where let's test theteacher on how many students
pass.
They could actually teach andI'm pretty positive.
Some of my elementary schoolteachers probably went to normal
college, right.
I mean, these weren't folkswith master's degrees from you
know Harvard, but they knew kidsand they didn't know what to
(27:33):
label somebody like me, but knewhow to deal with it and like,
for example, I love, and I stillam, a voracious reader.
And then we talked about these,the SRAs.
I don't know what they callthem now.
Back in the day they were SRAswhich were these little.
What would it be?
Little pamphlets storiesLaminated pamphlet and it's a
(27:54):
short story.
At the end you answer thequestions from the comprehension
.
I love them.
So I would finish my work inclass and my teachers would be
like I mean, there's a box ofthese things like a huge.
Speaker 5 (28:04):
Yes, they're color coded.
They go up in level.
You just keep going.
Speaker 6 (28:11):
Yeah, I would just rip through them.
So that was a positive way.
You know, and I think it's oneof the reasons I probably didn't
get distracted and get introuble in elementary school for
acting out was because theyalways had something else for me
to do.
As soon as I'd finish something, they'd have something else and
we just, you know and it wasn'tyou know go to recess and hang
out.
It was, hey, let's do somethingconstructive.
So again, a little bit of adifferent experience there.
But commenting quickly back ontothe travel and again we speak
(28:35):
about this in the book I cannotunderstate to the parents of
twice exceptional children howimperative travel and touching
things are, and I realizeeverybody doesn't have the money
to do what I was able to do,but I mean one well-organized
trip to Washington DC runningthrough the Smithsonian's, you
(28:56):
know, going through all those.
If you can't do that, just evenonline, you can't touch it.
But to go through it togetherand see that you know, going
through all those.
If you can't do that, just eveneven online, you can't touch it
.
But to go through it togetherand see that you know those
experiences, yeah, I mean it's.
I think it's a huge key to whyI've been able to be successful
navigating the world ofneurotypicals.
I love that.
Speaker 4 (29:13):
I did a lot of traveling as a child too,
because my dad was in themilitary he was an F4 pilot so
we did a lot of traveling as achild too, because my dad was in
the military he was an f4 pilot, so we did a lot of traveling
to other places cool I really Ithink that the I'm just gonna be
a little um.
I think that the level ofeducation, that and drive that
(29:33):
sounds like both of our parentshad was it was definitely a gift
to both of us.
And you know, I remember whenyou were talking about the
mentors and the people that youwould hang around, my mom was a
nurse, so she was always withall of the doctors and I
remember that situation, but Iwas always down at the guard and
I was always down with all ofthe other guardsmen and you know
(29:54):
I just saw that he was thecommander of the guard at the
time and so just to see, kind ofthe how it was ran.
So I don't know why I neverwent into the military.
I think that I, just as soon asI could, I was like run.
You know that's a whole notherpodcast episode, but you know, I
(30:19):
think that having those havingthe travel like I wish that we
had more means to travel with DJand let's just put it out there
it's going to happen in thefuture.
I'm just universing that rightnow Because he actually is a.
He loves linguistics and he doesseveral and he doesn't speak um
(30:44):
, like I don't think he can havea conversation with anyone in
the multiple languages that heactually has memorized, but he
could identify, like, the textof it or, if he heard it, he
could, uh, translate what theperson was saying.
Um, so it's interesting just toto find somebody who can
appreciate what that means,because even just going I'm in
(31:07):
salt lake city, utah even justgoing downtown and walking and
going past some of thecathedrals that have, like the
you know written roman and andthings like that and and it's so
fun to just let him discoverand, like you said, to touch
things, it's so important.
Speaker 6 (31:24):
The tactile part is very important and that's
actually something I can verymuch relate with.
I'm the same with languages.
I don't speak multiplelanguages, but particularly
within the Romance languagessome Greek, but predominantly
Latin I just kind ofautomatically break stuff down.
I can't explain how it works,but I can look at something and
go, okay, well, and it won't beverbatim reading it, but it's
(31:46):
enough to glean the context ofwhat they're talking about.
And then, as I was a little kidjust learning, you know, like
in second grade, learning moreadvanced vocabulary like
omnipotent Well, I knew omniumand everything Potent is potent,
omnipotent.
Like omnipotent well, I knewomnium and everything potent is
potent, omnipotent, omnipotent.
Got it, thanks, right.
(32:06):
So kind of breaking stuff downlike that.
Again, it's hard to kind ofverbalize, but yeah, that's how
in my mind's eye it works yeah,absolutely deb, what are you?
Speaker 4 (32:16):
what are you working on now?
As like going and getting thebook out, of course, to the
people who need it.
Isn't that the hardest and mostimportant part?
Speaker 5 (32:28):
It really is.
You know, john and I have donepodcasts together.
We've done separately.
I do a lot of professionaldevelopment.
I do a lot of professionaldevelopment and my focus again
(33:03):
is trying to help teachersunderstand these that.
But then when they see howsuccessful mentorships are for
these TUI students, it's likeeye opening.
One of the boys I wrote about inmy first book he was so
advanced but had a languagedifference, language learning
difference and but he by fourthgrade he wanted to be an
attorney.
So we found a gentleman, aparent in our district, who
(33:25):
volunteered in differentcapacities with his children's
district, our district, and hecame.
I asked him and he came in oneday every two weeks and sat for
over an hour with my student andthey just had conversations
about immigration law with mystudent and they just had
conversations about immigrationlaw.
And this is a nine, 10 year oldboy who when you sat in the
conference room where they weretalking, it was like two old law
(33:47):
buddies, you know, and theirconversations.
So that hour that he spent witha mentor was much more valuable
than sitting in a spellinglanguage class.
Or let's say, you know he wassuper advanced in math.
So that's what we took him outof and then we we upped his math
, you know, the other four daysa week.
(34:08):
So, and when I say up the math,what I mean is he was working
at an advanced level and a lotof times I was his teacher of
record.
But getting back to gettingbooks out there and having
conversations, it's just a lotof networking.
Sarah, as you know, and so youknow, when I met Harriet at
saying social emotional needs ofgifted and I was speaking about
(34:31):
twice exceptional boys she andI just connected because she has
a very gifted boy who's goingto college in West Virginia,
close to where I'm at.
So we just so connected andthen those connections just go
from there, so speaking withpeople on podcasts and in person
(34:52):
and doing some traveling.
So it's just, it's an ongoingprocess.
You just kind of hook onwherever you can to get the word
out.
You know, and John's amazing atthat.
He's just amazing at all hisbusiness connections and family
and, like he said, he's been inEurope and Texas and he's got
(35:13):
such an amazing combination ofattributes.
So I told him he and I need togo on the road more, but you
know he's in Colorado.
Speaker 4 (35:25):
Okay, so you guys, yeah, I feel a little bit like
you could do some book signingsand things like that, Right, oh
my God, oh, I love that.
Well, and you know, I wanted tomake sure that we had the
information.
You know how to reach both ofyou and get in touch with you.
So I do have your websites andstuff.
But let's talk about the book.
(35:46):
Is there?
I mean, is there a second bookin the talking and any ideas or
what can we look forward to inthe future?
John, what's next for you?
Speaker 6 (36:01):
I would like to take because I don't know if we got
into this.
The book's broken into threeparts.
The middle part is thebiography.
I would like to expand on thebiography part.
I've been approached by a fewpeople about a movie and that
(36:22):
could be anything from aone-episode Netflix thing to you
know what I always want, whichis an Academy Award.
So, you know, changing that asfar as the book and the work and
stuff go, that would kind of bewhere I would see it.
You know, from this way and Iagain it's I'm doing this
current business this willbecome like a business for me,
the book along with thefoundation.
So yeah, I mean, it's reallykind of branching out and doing
(36:43):
stuff like that.
And look, I do.
Also, it's not related to thetopic, but I do also have some
different views from a lot ofpeople that are kind of coming
from my angle.
One, as a lifelong entrepreneurand business owner, not a huge
fan of DEI.
Honestly, I'm not a huge fan ofDEI.
Honestly, I'm not a huge fan ofit.
I don't see why, if I've takenmy money or someone else's money
(37:04):
and my time and my ideas andcreated something, that I should
be forced to hire whoever Nowon the opposite end of that,
huge into accommodation, right?
So in my view it's aboutaccommodation.
I think DEI lends itself to likean affirmative action situation
which I have American,african-american friends who are
(37:25):
in their 50s that are like I'mstill not getting over that.
They were brilliant and it hasthat stigma.
So you know that that's onething.
The other thing that kind ofrubs me the wrong way is you
know this world that I don't fitinto?
You know this world that Idon't fit into?
Funnily enough, people likemyself created it and you can't
(37:46):
reverse, diagnose people.
But if you look at the expertsand who I mean we're talking
Thomas Jefferson, henry Ford,nikolai Tesla, einstein in
modern day, you know Gates, jobs, right.
It just it baffles me sometimesthat we create the very world
that we're not accepted in yeah,that's really um ironic and
very misunderstood yeah I meanit's I?
Speaker 4 (38:08):
saw some really strange art pictures in my mind
for some reason I don't know why.
Speaker 5 (38:12):
I don't know what that brought to me, but yeah, oh
my gosh, it's crazy, that's,that's a that's a big connection
that John and I have in termsof you know, I'm looking at
children, he's looking at adults.
That accommodation it's notthat, you know, a lot of schools
will say, well, we don't havethe money for that, or we don't
(38:32):
have the space to do that, or wedon't have the trained
specialists to do that theystart going down the road of all
the things they don't have orcan't do, and it's the same in
an office situation.
They think it's going to becostly, they think we need
special lighting or this or that.
You know it's just startshooting it down before it's
even tried.
Speaker 4 (38:53):
You know, implemented , Such simple accommodations can
spawn such great success andhappiness oh goodness, you had
mentioned a foundation and I hadthat address right here on the
SpectrumFoundationorg.
Talk to us a little bit aboutthat and what you do with the
(39:16):
foundation and for the community.
Speaker 6 (39:19):
Well, it's really parallel to the book.
I mean it's, you know, it'screating awareness.
When I first got diagnosed Iwas like you know, like a lot of
people that are on the spectrum, I'm like I'm going to take all
of this.
So it's like the entire lowfunctioning, high functioning
battle and care except and Ikept just narrowing it down and
(39:46):
I ended up at 2E, that's.
That's kind of how it all works, because they're really the
only people like I on thespectrum that I can communicate
with.
It's, again, kind of hard toexplain, but that's kind of
where it went was towards twiceexceptionality.
I do life coaching, classic,what used to be called
(40:06):
Asperger's.
I find very difficult to lifecoach.
It's just I can't establish therapport, I can't get the
conversational turn.
Adults, you know, I mean theyimmediately want to talk,
they're immediately interestedin the subject matter.
(40:26):
So you know that kind of stuff.
But as far as the foundation'sgoals go, at this point it's
just awareness.
Unfortunately, I am veryhyper-focused on the for-profit
business right now.
At this moment.
Part of the goal of that is tobe able to put quite a bit of
capital back into the 501c3 andstart expanding what we're doing
(40:46):
.
But I'll get email messagesthat really it's nothing beyond
oh wow, now I understand myselfa lot better.
Or oh wow, I'm going to go seeka diagnosis.
So even in its passive role,it's still doing part of what I
want it to do.
But we'd really like to turn upthe volume on that when time
allows, and I'm at the age wherea lot of my friends are
(41:08):
starting to retire, semi-retire,and have more time to help with
stuff like that.
So you know, the kids are outof the house and they can go.
(41:29):
So at any rate, that's reallykind of the overall goal of it
is really awareness and thenpeople being able to look at it
and have some degree ofself-acceptance and realize that
they're not alone and thatthey're not broken and that in
all actuality, they're, in alarge part, of the people that
have contributed most to oursociety.
Speaker 4 (41:35):
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
And we'll we'll have to followeach other and read each other's
posts, because I'm sure we'veprobably said the same thing.
I've been reading the paragraphbefore, so I love that.
I love that, john.
No, it's.
It's been so nice to get toknow you both and, um, tell us
(41:56):
what we can find when we go toyour website, debra, as far as
how can can clients reach out toyou?
What does that process looklike for them?
Speaker 5 (42:09):
Right.
So if you go to my website,deborahgenerellicom, individuals
will find a lot of differentthings.
One of them is how I, how, whatmy passion is about, and then
they will find both our booksthere.
They'll find reviews of both ofour books there as well as on
(42:30):
Amazon, but they're there aswell A list of resources for
parents, adults that want tolearn about giftedness and twice
exceptionality, and thoseresources are broken down into
books and articles and podcastsand YouTube connections
different things that I'vealready found that I think are
(42:52):
amazing, and so they can justfind those right in one spot.
And then there's also ifparents or school districts want
to talk to me about supportingthem, advocating for them and
their needs.
There's that as well.
So it's a lot of differentconnections on my website and
that's where they can find me.
Speaker 4 (43:13):
I love that.
Well, it's been so nice to getto know you guys.
Thank you for being patient toget, to get, um, to get here.
I know I had to get throughthis summit that I just did,
which was phenomenal 18 hoursworth of amazing, uh,
information for the communityand, hopefully, just the world,
(43:34):
anybody who decides to go listen.
So, and it was streamed freefor the first time, which I was,
you know, not sure what thatwas gonna look like, but it was
phenomenal.
And um, which I was, you knownot sure what that was going to
look like, but it was phenomenal.
And, yeah, and I was going toask what are some of the what's,
some of the feedback from thebook that you've gotten, john?
(43:55):
That's just, you know, been thebest.
Speaker 6 (44:00):
Well, again, like I said, the reviews, the reviews,
reviews are there and obviouslythose kind of speak for
themselves.
But just just in general, um, abetter understanding of it.
I mean my you know, my friends,uh, first of all were the ones.
And deb spoke with my bestfriend, pierce, and the way, the
way that went down from mydiagnosis was I called him.
I was like, hey, look, here'swhat's you know, here's what
(44:22):
they're saying.
He called me back in 30 minutesand he's a very analytical
engineer, he's a really smartguy, and he was like, yep, I've
been looking for that for 45years.
That's exactly what it is.
So, then, kind of taking thatand then just expanding upon it.
But I mean, I've had feedbackfrom friends that really
appreciated it educators,parents, all different angles
(44:43):
and that was really one of ourgoals is Deb and I didn't want
to pigeonhole this to a specificaudience.
It's for HR managers, it's foreducators, it's for people
themselves.
It's the whole gamut and Ithink breaking it into those
three parts really helps withthat, because people are going
to be attracted to the different, you know.
You know what I mean.
Each one of those is going tobe something that people are
predominantly attracted to.
Speaker 4 (45:05):
So absolutely navigating neuro divergence.
Is that right?
Speaker 6 (45:11):
navigating neurodiversity neurodiversity.
Speaker 4 (45:13):
I thank you.
It's like what I can't betyping today and and talking at
the same time, for some reasonbut the way we talk.
Speaker 5 (45:24):
We talk quite a bit, sarah, in the first part of the
book about you know what isgiftedness, what is um, you know
what is autism, and then howthere's kind of a a thread that
pulls through those two um soindividuals that again don't
really see giftedness as aneurodiversity, which it is.
(45:47):
That's why, you know, when Italk to educators about these
kids, brains are workingdifferently and therefore their
behaviors sometimes aredifferent than the neurotypical
kid in the classroom.
That's really important tounderstand.
So there's a good breakdown ofthat in the first part of the
book.
And then everyone has to justsoak up the middle part, which
(46:07):
is all about John's life.
And you know I wish it couldhave been a 500 page book, but
our publishers, like you know,keep it to 300 pages or we're
talking about a textbook.
So yeah, and then the last partyou know, about how we can
support twice exceptionalindividuals, from children to
adults.
Speaker 4 (46:27):
Are there any other resources other than your guys'
websites that you'd like to giveto the community?
Speaker 5 (46:37):
I would just say, if you're going to my website,
click on the resource tab and,like I said, there is a lot of
information.
Speaker 4 (46:44):
Love that, love that?
Yeah, I think that it's.
I'm finding so many amazingorganizations and ways to get
support.
Every family is different.
Every individual is different,so find what you need, what
feels right for you, whatresonates.
Find what you need what feelsright for you, what resonates
and kind of sounds like.
(47:05):
John has already surroundedhimself with like-minded
individuals and friends of thatnature, so doing great.
Yeah, thank you so much foryour time today, both of you, I
appreciate it and yeah I wouldlove to stay in touch.
Yeah, absolutely.
Thanks for the opportunity.
Stay in touch.
Speaker 5 (47:23):
Yeah, absolutely Thanks for the opportunity.
Thank you.
Yeah, absolutely it was reallyfun, john, good seeing you.
Speaker 2 (47:46):
In the heart of the city.
She's shining bright, oh yeah,stories of love and courage All
throughout the night, her voiceresonating An anthem for all.
Through the trials and thetrials, she answers the call Her
mother and her father Breakingbarriers and strife, with love
as her guide.
(48:06):
She'll never hide.
She's changing the world foryou With her heart and speech
and strong Empathies and melody.
In her journey we all belong.
Followers gather like stars inthe night.
So bright, 44,000 voicessharing in the light.
(48:31):
She stands for family,advocates for more Movement of
compassion, ways we'll soarPodcasts together, symphony of
support In life change andreport.
She's changing the world foryou With a heart that's fierce
and strong.
(48:51):
Hypothese and melody A journeywe all belong.
Through her eyes, a visionclear.
Together we riseding fears inevery heart.
She plants the seed ofunderstanding and love,
appealing me.
She's changing the world foryou With a heart that's fierce
(49:27):
and strong.
Empathies and melodies In ajourney we all belong.
The SJ Childs Show is Backford's 13th season.
Join Sarah Brafford and the SJChilds Show team as they explore
the world of autism and sharestories of hope and inspiration.
This season we're excited tobring you more autism summits
featuring experts and advocatesfrom around the world.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Go to sjchildsorg hey everyone.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
Just wanted to give you an update.
The second annual InternationalAutism Summit was such a
success.
Thank you to our sponsors andour amazing speakers.
If you're interested in seeingany of those sessions, go to my
YouTube channel, the SG ChildShow the live tab and you can
see each day and their sessionsare timestamped in the
(00:58):
description.
Hope to see you guys there.
Speaker 4 (01:03):
Hi and welcome to the SG Child Show today.
I'm really really thrilled tobring two incredible guests
which how exciting is that?
You guys you know normally getto hear me just have one
conversation back and forth, butwe're going to have a wonderful
trifecta conversation todaywith my guests, deb and John,
(01:25):
and I'm an autism summit in thepast and this last you would.
You would have seen Harry'sname all up and down in that
comment section just givingaccolades and credit and
connections.
She's just a master ofconnections.
So, yes, love that.
Deb, thank you so much for yourtime and for being here today.
(01:45):
Tell us a little bit aboutyourself and introduction and
then John will jump right intoyou.
Speaker 5 (01:52):
Okay, well, sarah, thank you so much for having
John and myself on your podcast.
We're very excited to talk toyou about our book, navigating
Neurodiversity.
My background is as a giftedintervention specialist for over
30 years in public and privateschools and I worked with gifted
and twice exceptional studentsand that included not just
(02:15):
working with the students buttheir families, helping them
navigate really tough situationsin schools where often the
child was not being servicedcorrectly and it led to a lot of
issues or challenges for thechild.
So that is where my passion is.
I've left the classroom after40 years and now I'm a gifted ed
(02:36):
2E consultant with my company,smart Strategies.
I've written a book on twiceexceptional boys and then I met
and made a lifelong friend withJohn Truitt and that's how we
wrote Navigating Neurodiversity.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
Oh, I love that and, john, I'm just honored that you
are here today and lookingforward to getting to know you
better.
Tell us a little bit about howit started for you, your
background.
Speaker 6 (03:04):
It's kind of hard to pick a place to start, but in
19,.
Speaker 4 (03:08):
You know, I'm just kidding.
Speaker 6 (03:11):
No, so I'm currently 52.
I was diagnosed at 45 as twiceexceptional, so gifted also on
the spectrum, as well asdyslexic dysgraphia, dyscalculia
.
But I have advanced strengthsin applying math.
So I calculate math at the 10thgrade level and I apply it at
the grad school level, which isa real fun one if you can
(03:32):
imagine going through schoolwith that one.
But yeah, so I had a verydifferent experience than most.
I was never bullied in school.
I was often a class leader,played sports, dated, you know,
pretty girls, pretty and smartgirls and kind of had a very
different experience.
The one I can relate to that'svery common with twice
(03:55):
exceptionality is I got the tryharder or you're being lazy
because I'm blowing it out ofthe, you know, off the chart in
an AP honors English class, yetI'm struggling in algebra.
So I had that real imbalance.
But very long story short wentto a really good boarding school
(04:15):
in the Southeast, came back togo to university, went for a
year and a half, decided to jointhe army, became a combat medic
in the army, came back out.
My dad and grandfather are bothdoctors and they had kind of a
business side of medicine that Iwon't go into but got into that
.
Ended up in Australia at 29,listing a company on the stock
exchange, a medical devicecompany.
Relocated to CEO of that in theUS, got really tired of
(04:40):
corporate and very much relatedto 2E.
I wasn't bullied as a kid but Iguess if you would call it
bullying or I would call itduping, that really happened to
me a lot in the boardroom I'd bethe one that does all the work
and has all these creative ideasand implements these strategies
.
Yeah, and I would get kudosverbally.
But then you go and look at thepacket and I'm like, well, why
(05:02):
Not to say I wasn't making greatmoney?
But I would look at it and go,wait a minute, what compared to
that what I've done.
So that really started to takeme off.
Started my own business they'resleep and snoring diagnostic
and therapy companies.
Started that in Dallas.
Got three pretty significantclinics up, kind of moved to
Durango to semi-retire.
I had the last business turnunfavorably financially so kind
(05:26):
of took a little bit of a periodthere in 2018.
Got diagnosed, spent a lot oftime with my psychologist,
seeing other patients with him.
Really got you know, reallywent super deep.
Met Deb.
Wrote the book we co-authoredthat taught two kids for about a
year and a half and then sixmonths ago started with another
(05:46):
startup.
So I'm in about a month, twoand a half of operations on a
brand new startup that we'redoing here in Denver.
Speaker 4 (05:54):
Welcome to the life of serial entrepreneurship, as I
like to call it for myself.
Speaker 6 (06:01):
And I can't do it any other way.
I've tried to fit into theoffice environment.
I know there's lots of thingsthat can be done.
It just doesn't work.
It doesn't work for me.
I'm not a control freak, but Ido have to have a full view of
the company to be able to,instead of just, hey, you're in
operations, I need to seefinance operations, marketing,
and you just, unless it's yourbusiness, you just don't really
(06:23):
have the opportunity to do thatand you just, unless it's your
business, you just don't reallyhave the opportunity to do that,
yeah.
So yeah, I definitely I can.
That's another thing I canrelate to the workplace
struggles with the quote unquotehigh functioning, twice
exceptional person.
I can very, very much empathizewith that.
Speaker 4 (06:47):
And I think it's great that you have this
different perspective, becauseyou're right, I think that
oftentimes it is kind of thestory of the struggling bullied
child or whatnot, not that thatisn't, you know, relevant and
doesn't truly happen, more thannot.
But I think it's alwaysimportant to have the other side
.
For those that can relate tothat side of life, like my
husband and I, for example, alot of the same things resonate,
(07:11):
you know, throughout our lives,and especially finally when we
found each other and we're ableto have this incredible
intelligent conversation withsomeone finally and thought, oh
my God, here you are, finally,but how did you two come to meet
and what did it look like?
Kind of meeting the minds anddeciding a book.
Speaker 6 (07:36):
From my end, deb obviously needs to give her side
of that.
But from my end I had decidedthat I very much wanted to write
a book and I was looking onLinkedIn.
I do a lot on LinkedIn, Ibelieve Deb does as well and we
just came across each other andI sent her an email and said hey
look, you know, here's kind ofa very brief synopsis of what I
have going on and what I want todo.
(07:56):
Would you like to co-author abook?
And her immediate response wasI just finished one.
And her immediate response wasI just finished one.
But no, we connected there,immediately, hit it off and kind
of understood.
Obviously, with her extensivebackground and twice exceptional
education, she knew how tocommunicate with me and it was
(08:22):
yeah, I don't think it really Icouldn't have done it by myself
because of the lack of structure, and I don't think I could have
done it with someone who didn'thave an in-depth, thorough
background with that.
So that's my side, deb Go.
Speaker 5 (08:31):
Right.
Well, you know, as John said,when I opened that LinkedIn
message and at first I thoughtthis is a parent reaching out to
me to talk about their two-weekchild, because the business
that I have now, sarah, is isthat, you know, parents contact
me from around the world.
But then when I messaged himback, I realized he's he's
(08:54):
talking about himself.
So we actually got on the phoneand I told him yes, I've, I
just finished a book, it justgot published, and to sit down
and write another one, it's ayear or more process from start
to finish, and then you have togo through trying to have it
published, and that could go onfor months.
So I was like, oh, I don't knowif I'm ready for this, but it
(09:17):
took me, I think, twoconversations with John and I
was all in on and I was all in.
He just, you know, as he toldyou his short summary of his
life, I was just so in awe.
I just thought I have to get toknow this man better and his
story needs to be told.
I think it.
(09:38):
He and I both agreed and hecertainly was the first in the
place to say you know, there arenot a lot of resources out
there on adults that are twiceexceptional.
When I first started my careerin gifted ed, there weren't a
lot of books on giftedness.
Now there are a plethora ofthem and even twice
exceptionality and organizationslike SANG, and then things that
(10:00):
we talked about Harry O'Kelly,and there are a lot of people
out there doing some great workbut there weren't a lot on
adults.
So I was like two thumbs up andJohn and I dove in and it was.
It was just a phenomenalexperience.
You know, I'm used to being theteacher, although my students
have always taught me the most,but John taught me more than I
(10:20):
ever helped him with.
You know, it was just amazing,an amazing experience.
I said it was a gift from God,but I love that connection.
Speaker 4 (10:32):
It was really.
It really was too.
I mean, I'm sure that it was.
You know, somehow I am notreligious but very spiritual.
I think that we timing it's allabout kind of timing, and the
right things happen at the righttimes.
They you can't force them, theydon't, then they don't fit and
they don't work.
And oh, I know that feeling,john.
(10:54):
What is your passion behind?
What do you want people to getout of the book?
Speaker 6 (11:03):
Well, first of all, just a broader understanding
that TUI exists.
That's kind of.
The first thing is like this iswhat twice exceptionality is.
The second thing is, unlike youknow, they used to say in
autism that it goes away.
Right, the only kids haveautism.
It never goes away.
And that being twice exceptional, I view it very much as
(11:25):
something to accept and justacknowledge, and I'm not like a
real lefty kind of person and Iknow that like words, like you
know, oh, and that can sound allfruity.
No, I just mean it's verysimple.
If I were to condense it into asentence is I don't want to be
cured, I want to be understood.
And I see, in the autismcommunity I'd love to talk some
(11:47):
RFK with you later on if we havetime.
But but within the autismcommunity I don't really put the
split where you know the DSMdoes to.
To me that's just really it'snot not what it is.
I think DSM four had it rightwhen they had what used to be
called Asperger's, which whichoften twice exceptionality kind
(12:07):
of put them on the side.
So I really don't look at italong those lines.
I look at it along a cure oraccept line.
So you have, you have parentsof quote unquote low functioning
, and I hate that term.
Even you know nonverbal kidswho they like you said that
believe it's a gift from God andthey love every moment of it.
I understand there are a lot ofparents on that side of the
(12:29):
spectrum that don't and canunderstand.
I can understand, as a parentmyself, why they would be
seeking a cure because itpresents itself as a pathology.
I'm very much on the other sideof it with, regardless of where
the child or adult adult is onthe spectrum, it's to me that's
the delineator is do you want tobe cured or do you want to be
(12:49):
accepted?
Speaker 4 (12:51):
yeah, there's a big um, a big divide where it comes
to inclusion and belonging, andI think that that's um a big
kind of everybody.
We all just want to belong andthat we can be included.
But that doesn't mean that westill belong there and that
doesn't mean we're feeling likewe belong there.
(13:12):
And I'm saying we cause I alsoam late diagnosed.
I'm not speaking out of placehere, but and when our you know
I grew up as my parents didn't,they were business and career
minded.
I was an only child and forthem it was just keep her at
(13:35):
school and after school programs, keep her busy.
You know that was it.
There was no actual oh, she isgifted.
What we could do, this, wecould do so much more.
It was just kind of.
You know, here's the bottomline, good luck.
My dad always used to say keepyour nose clean, good luck.
See, you know he was in themilitary, so that's it.
(13:57):
And so, yeah, I thinkoftentimes, as for me, you know
that, building that independencequite early and then also
having that struggle of not everbeing understood or feeling
like I belonged, even though Ididn't struggle with, you know,
making friends, it would looklike to to others, but you know,
(14:21):
my mom would always say to mewhy don't you, why aren't you
friends with these group ofgirls, why aren't you this, why
aren't you that?
And there was always a deficitof of what you were, you know,
the extra, extra drama queen.
That's what it was and I, andso I love that.
Today, when people talk aboutdisclosure and talk about
(14:42):
diagnosis and things, I am so,you know, on the side of
independence and freedom inhaving it and then getting the
support and then not having thisother who you might be, that
society decides are thesedegradating?
You know associations with you,hibernating.
(15:07):
You know associations with you,but it's really tricky.
But my son so I never knewanything, but our son was
quickly understood.
He was reading at one andwriting at two and there was not
a doubt in any.
You know, there was no doubt inmy mind, but there was in
everyone else's, and so it'sjust.
It's so important that we kindof get the highlight and the
(15:29):
spotlight on 2E individuals.
So let's kind of break thisdown for listeners that might
not even know now what we'retalking about.
Deb, what is the 2E definition?
If you will?
How would you describe that forour listeners?
Speaker 5 (15:50):
Right.
So, sarah, twice exceptionalityrefers to an individual that is
gifted by.
There are many definitions ofgiftedness.
In the United States,giftedness is one who works well
above, if you want to sayacademically, if we're talking
about school age well abovetheir same age peers.
(16:12):
As you said, your son wasreading, you know well, before
entering elementary school.
You know I have clients whohave children that are four
years old doing math at sixthgrade level.
So a twice exceptional studentis gifted, or twice exceptional
adult is gifted.
And then there's some learningdifference or differences, as
(16:33):
John mentioned.
It could be dysgraphia,dyslexia, autism, it could be
combination.
The interesting thing aboutidentifying twice exceptional
students in schools is thatthere's three categories.
One is that the giftednessshines right through and so the
child comes into school andthey're so bright and teachers
(16:56):
are like oh, what you know, mygoodness, this child is, is
doing this so, so advancedly andso easily and doesn't need
repetitions of the skill work.
And what do I do with him orher?
But the learning differencedoesn't show itself readily.
And then there's the child whothe learning difference is,
right out in front, glaring, andthe teacher or adults in that
(17:19):
child's life don't even realizethat the child is gifted and
I've had many students in thatcategory.
When the child was identified bya school district as gifted,
the parents and or teachers andor administrators went gifted
what I never would have thoughthe or she was gifted.
So that learning difference andthose behaviors that kind of
(17:40):
come with that reallyovershadowed the giftedness.
And then the third category arethose children who the
giftedness and learningdifferences really kind of just
cancel each other out.
The child appears average,quote, unquote, average in the
classroom.
So as the child gets older inschool and, for example, the
grades start dropping becausethey have either a language
(18:02):
difference you know writing isdifficult, reading is difficult
or math is difficult, then it'slike wait a minute, why is this
just showing up now?
So eventually it kind ofpresents itself.
But that third category, thosechildren just look like they're
average, not gifted, don't havelearning differences, just send
them on through, don't havelearning differences just send
(18:25):
them on through.
Speaker 4 (18:26):
You know Absolutely, John, what is some advice you
like would like parents to lookfor no-transcript.
Speaker 6 (18:35):
Well, I think very early what parents need to look
for and this doesn'tcontraindicate anything.
But there's the classic mold ofokay, your child was developing
until two, then went nonverbal.
So that's what autism is.
No, I mean I was, and Deb and Igo into this in depth in the
(18:56):
book.
She interviewed a lot of myfamily and friends.
I never crawled, I wentstraight to walking.
I was speaking in completesentences at roughly nine months
old.
Similar with the reading I wasreading in kindergarten.
I was reading at the sixth orseventh grade level and I said I
was dyslexic and I found outthis is actually fairly common
on the spectrum.
(19:16):
And I found out this isactually fairly common on the
spectrum.
You start off as hyperlexic.
So I was hyperlexic.
And then, as far as reading,reader, but I comprehend 98, 99%
of it, which is obviouslyreally high.
(19:45):
I do not have a photographicmemory.
I do have an associative memory.
So when we're talking aboutsomething that I remember,
essentially movies pop into myhead and I can kind of roll and
watch them, but it's not thetype of thing you know.
Wait a minute, page 600 ofTolstoy, it says exactly this.
It's not that it's veryassociative.
But what I'd like you to know,is really that big difference
that if they're seeing thosedevelopmental milestones happen
(20:08):
quickly, it's not only this isthe kid gifted.
In my opinion, it's very, verylikely they're twice exceptional
.
Speaker 4 (20:16):
Oh, absolutely, and I love when you're saying that
because I it's when you know andyou can see in your family and
be able to give the support's 15now, and we really aren't doing
anything specific, but we'llget to that.
But when Harry told me aboutthis community that existed, of
(20:51):
all of these twice exceptionalparents and people, and I had
built this community in theautism world, if you will, for a
decade and it was really soeye-opening and just this, like,
oh my gosh, there's anothercommunity that we are part of
(21:12):
that we didn't even know we hadall of these friends that we
could, you know, relate to andhave these ideas from, because
there's not many conversationsyou can have with a person who
understands, you know, and notin my case, but for DJ, like
what it was like to, like John,you know, be doing algebra in
(21:34):
first grade.
That's why we were turned awayfrom public school and that's
why they said we can no longerhelp you.
We don't have algebra for firstgraders, like, and I remember
we were, you know, went to aspecialized autism school, um,
and DJ has developmental delayand there's.
So there's a lot of differencesas far as, like his rep, uh,
(21:58):
reciprocity is hardly at all,and so it's tricky and there's a
hard.
It's hard to know how tomeasure, I guess, those types of
things.
But, like John said, he actuallyhas a photographic memory, so
the way we were able to see itwas in the recreation of the
things that he was showing us sothat we could help get him to
(22:20):
sport.
But what a hard journey it waswhen he was little and no one
believed us essentially.
You know, we went to thepediatrician and said oh my gosh
, he's reading, he's doing this.
And the guy said that'sridiculous.
Like he's not making eyecontact, he is not verbalized,
(22:41):
you know, making the verbal cuesthat he should be making, he is
not pointing like these are thethings.
And I was like no, no, no, no,no, but he's reading.
You know, I had a totallydifferent view of this.
I guess that's why it's a goodthing he's my kid.
Speaker 5 (22:58):
I will say, sarah, it's, it's super important.
You, you know your child bestand to advocate for him or her.
It's.
It's challenging, especiallywhen you come up against
professionals like medicalprofessionals or educators,
administrators, who you reallyyou assume and we get in trouble
when we assume.
But when you assume that theyunderstand what you're talking
(23:21):
about and you assume thatthey're going to believe you.
And so I again, when I taught,as well as now, I see your
situation all the time, and sothat's where it's really
important to be an advocate andand give them the right language
, the right questions to ask andreally help them navigate, like
(23:45):
I said early on in the podcast,to navigate those very tricky
waters that you, as a parent,experience with a two-week kid,
exactly.
Speaker 4 (23:56):
And, john, I really respect and appreciate what how
you talked about kind ofworkplace, because I think that
I just, you know, had thisreally great summit and some of
my advocates are twiceexceptional and they really do
have some struggles in theworkplace and have a hard time
(24:17):
understanding why in theworkplace and have a hard time
understanding why, like, I havetwo master's degrees and you
can't keep me employed, likewhat you know, and I hear this
all the time from them and so Ireally appreciate that you
shared that part of it.
Is there mentors or anything inthat kind of early time that
helped you understand?
Early time that helped youunderstand, like to grasp onto
(24:41):
things and, you know, get into abetter situation?
Speaker 6 (24:46):
Well, I was never in a bad situation.
I was never in a bad situationand again, kind of like being
twice exceptional.
And Deb can comment on this mylife.
If I were just a normalneurotypical and you looked at
my life, it's kind of like, ohmy God, really, my dad, who, as
I mentioned, was a clinician I'mtrying to do this without
(25:09):
getting into all kinds ofdetails but self-limited his
medical practice to a certaintype of specialty and started
lecturing all over the US andthen all over Europe so I forget
the exact Deb from the book,but I think it was by age 10,.
I've been to 40 states, howevermany different you know places,
predominantly in Europe, and Itell you that, to tell you,
those were my mentors.
(25:29):
They were the doctors.
They were you know the doctorsthat learned all the clinical
stuff from the sales reps thatwould come to you know display
on sales booths.
I hung out with them.
I learned how to not just sellbut really run a sales team,
hearing from them what theyliked about their boss and
didn't like about their boss.
So everything with me.
(25:50):
It's very, very hands-on, veryhands-on learning.
Later in my career I ended upduring the IPO.
I went straight into theC-suite as the chief marketing
officer.
So again, it was like startingmy own business.
I didn't have to go throughthat corporate ladder and I
found that when you'reparticularly in a startup,
particularly a publicly heldstartup, people don't care.
(26:12):
They don't care where you wentto school, they don't care if
you're quirky, it's basically ifyou can get it done.
And when you're dealing withthat very top echelon of people,
they love teaching and I loveasking questions.
So that's really kind of how Ideveloped, you know, going
through that whole thing andagain in school pardon me,
(26:35):
unlike what happened with you,that they didn't believe or
anything else I come from asmall Texas town.
Fathers are really well-knowndoctor, grandfathers are really
well-known doctor.
There was never any doubt oflike am I intelligent or not?
And a couple of quick things.
Which is funny, my discographyobviously started displaying,
you know, presenting very early.
Well, the reason John has badhandwriting is he's going to be
(26:57):
a doctor.
I love that One second.
Speaker 4 (27:05):
I actually worked in both medical and legal, so I
completely like appreciate thatso much.
Speaker 6 (27:12):
So yeah, so that was kind of on the okay right side,
but the other part of it it wasbefore all these testing of
teachers where let's test theteacher on how many students
pass.
They could actually teach andI'm pretty positive.
Some of my elementary schoolteachers probably went to normal
college, right.
I mean, these weren't folkswith master's degrees from you
know Harvard, but they knew kidsand they didn't know what to
(27:33):
label somebody like me, but knewhow to deal with it and like,
for example, I love, and I stillam, a voracious reader.
And then we talked about these,the SRAs.
I don't know what they callthem now.
Back in the day they were SRAswhich were these little.
What would it be?
Little pamphlets storiesLaminated pamphlet and it's a
(27:54):
short story.
At the end you answer thequestions from the comprehension
.
I love them.
So I would finish my work inclass and my teachers would be
like I mean, there's a box ofthese things like a huge.
Speaker 5 (28:04):
Yes, they're color coded.
They go up in level.
You just keep going.
Speaker 6 (28:11):
Yeah, I would just rip through them.
So that was a positive way.
You know, and I think it's oneof the reasons I probably didn't
get distracted and get introuble in elementary school for
acting out was because theyalways had something else for me
to do.
As soon as I'd finish something, they'd have something else and
we just, you know and it wasn'tyou know go to recess and hang
out.
It was, hey, let's do somethingconstructive.
So again, a little bit of adifferent experience there.
But commenting quickly back ontothe travel and again we speak
(28:35):
about this in the book I cannotunderstate to the parents of
twice exceptional children howimperative travel and touching
things are, and I realizeeverybody doesn't have the money
to do what I was able to do,but I mean one well-organized
trip to Washington DC runningthrough the Smithsonian's, you
(28:56):
know, going through all those.
If you can't do that, just evenonline, you can't touch it.
But to go through it togetherand see that you know, going
through all those.
If you can't do that, just eveneven online, you can't touch it
.
But to go through it togetherand see that you know those
experiences, yeah, I mean it's.
I think it's a huge key to whyI've been able to be successful
navigating the world ofneurotypicals.
I love that.
Speaker 4 (29:13):
I did a lot of traveling as a child too,
because my dad was in themilitary he was an F4 pilot so
we did a lot of traveling as achild too, because my dad was in
the military he was an f4 pilot, so we did a lot of traveling
to other places cool I really Ithink that the I'm just gonna be
a little um.
I think that the level ofeducation, that and drive that
(29:33):
sounds like both of our parentshad was it was definitely a gift
to both of us.
And you know, I remember whenyou were talking about the
mentors and the people that youwould hang around, my mom was a
nurse, so she was always withall of the doctors and I
remember that situation, but Iwas always down at the guard and
I was always down with all ofthe other guardsmen and you know
(29:54):
I just saw that he was thecommander of the guard at the
time and so just to see, kind ofthe how it was ran.
So I don't know why I neverwent into the military.
I think that I, just as soon asI could, I was like run.
You know that's a whole notherpodcast episode, but you know, I
(30:19):
think that having those havingthe travel like I wish that we
had more means to travel with DJand let's just put it out there
it's going to happen in thefuture.
I'm just universing that rightnow Because he actually is a.
He loves linguistics and he doesseveral and he doesn't speak um
(30:44):
, like I don't think he can havea conversation with anyone in
the multiple languages that heactually has memorized, but he
could identify, like, the textof it or, if he heard it, he
could, uh, translate what theperson was saying.
Um, so it's interesting just toto find somebody who can
appreciate what that means,because even just going I'm in
(31:07):
salt lake city, utah even justgoing downtown and walking and
going past some of thecathedrals that have, like the
you know written roman and andthings like that and and it's so
fun to just let him discoverand, like you said, to touch
things, it's so important.
Speaker 6 (31:24):
The tactile part is very important and that's
actually something I can verymuch relate with.
I'm the same with languages.
I don't speak multiplelanguages, but particularly
within the Romance languagessome Greek, but predominantly
Latin I just kind ofautomatically break stuff down.
I can't explain how it works,but I can look at something and
go, okay, well, and it won't beverbatim reading it, but it's
(31:46):
enough to glean the context ofwhat they're talking about.
And then, as I was a little kidjust learning, you know, like
in second grade, learning moreadvanced vocabulary like
omnipotent Well, I knew omniumand everything Potent is potent,
omnipotent.
Like omnipotent well, I knewomnium and everything potent is
potent, omnipotent, omnipotent.
Got it, thanks, right.
(32:06):
So kind of breaking stuff downlike that.
Again, it's hard to kind ofverbalize, but yeah, that's how
in my mind's eye it works yeah,absolutely deb, what are you?
Speaker 4 (32:16):
what are you working on now?
As like going and getting thebook out, of course, to the
people who need it.
Isn't that the hardest and mostimportant part?
Speaker 5 (32:28):
It really is.
You know, john and I have donepodcasts together.
We've done separately.
I do a lot of professionaldevelopment.
I do a lot of professionaldevelopment and my focus again
(33:03):
is trying to help teachersunderstand these that.
But then when they see howsuccessful mentorships are for
these TUI students, it's likeeye opening.
One of the boys I wrote about inmy first book he was so
advanced but had a languagedifference, language learning
difference and but he by fourthgrade he wanted to be an
attorney.
So we found a gentleman, aparent in our district, who
(33:25):
volunteered in differentcapacities with his children's
district, our district, and hecame.
I asked him and he came in oneday every two weeks and sat for
over an hour with my student andthey just had conversations
about immigration law with mystudent and they just had
conversations about immigrationlaw.
And this is a nine, 10 year oldboy who when you sat in the
conference room where they weretalking, it was like two old law
(33:47):
buddies, you know, and theirconversations.
So that hour that he spent witha mentor was much more valuable
than sitting in a spellinglanguage class.
Or let's say, you know he wassuper advanced in math.
So that's what we took him outof and then we we upped his math
, you know, the other four daysa week.
(34:08):
So, and when I say up the math,what I mean is he was working
at an advanced level and a lotof times I was his teacher of
record.
But getting back to gettingbooks out there and having
conversations, it's just a lotof networking.
Sarah, as you know, and so youknow, when I met Harriet at
saying social emotional needs ofgifted and I was speaking about
(34:31):
twice exceptional boys she andI just connected because she has
a very gifted boy who's goingto college in West Virginia,
close to where I'm at.
So we just so connected andthen those connections just go
from there, so speaking withpeople on podcasts and in person
(34:52):
and doing some traveling.
So it's just, it's an ongoingprocess.
You just kind of hook onwherever you can to get the word
out.
You know, and John's amazing atthat.
He's just amazing at all hisbusiness connections and family
and, like he said, he's been inEurope and Texas and he's got
(35:13):
such an amazing combination ofattributes.
So I told him he and I need togo on the road more, but you
know he's in Colorado.
Speaker 4 (35:25):
Okay, so you guys, yeah, I feel a little bit like
you could do some book signingsand things like that, Right, oh
my God, oh, I love that.
Well, and you know, I wanted tomake sure that we had the
information.
You know how to reach both ofyou and get in touch with you.
So I do have your websites andstuff.
But let's talk about the book.
(35:46):
Is there?
I mean, is there a second bookin the talking and any ideas or
what can we look forward to inthe future?
John, what's next for you?
Speaker 6 (36:01):
I would like to take because I don't know if we got
into this.
The book's broken into threeparts.
The middle part is thebiography.
I would like to expand on thebiography part.
I've been approached by a fewpeople about a movie and that
(36:22):
could be anything from aone-episode Netflix thing to you
know what I always want, whichis an Academy Award.
So, you know, changing that asfar as the book and the work and
stuff go, that would kind of bewhere I would see it.
You know, from this way and Iagain it's I'm doing this
current business this willbecome like a business for me,
the book along with thefoundation.
So yeah, I mean, it's reallykind of branching out and doing
(36:43):
stuff like that.
And look, I do.
Also, it's not related to thetopic, but I do also have some
different views from a lot ofpeople that are kind of coming
from my angle.
One, as a lifelong entrepreneurand business owner, not a huge
fan of DEI.
Honestly, I'm not a huge fan ofDEI.
Honestly, I'm not a huge fan ofit.
I don't see why, if I've takenmy money or someone else's money
(37:04):
and my time and my ideas andcreated something, that I should
be forced to hire whoever Nowon the opposite end of that,
huge into accommodation, right?
So in my view it's aboutaccommodation.
I think DEI lends itself to likean affirmative action situation
which I have American,african-american friends who are
(37:25):
in their 50s that are like I'mstill not getting over that.
They were brilliant and it hasthat stigma.
So you know that that's onething.
The other thing that kind ofrubs me the wrong way is you
know this world that I don't fitinto?
You know this world that Idon't fit into?
Funnily enough, people likemyself created it and you can't
(37:46):
reverse, diagnose people.
But if you look at the expertsand who I mean we're talking
Thomas Jefferson, henry Ford,nikolai Tesla, einstein in
modern day, you know Gates, jobs, right.
It just it baffles me sometimesthat we create the very world
that we're not accepted in yeah,that's really um ironic and
very misunderstood yeah I meanit's I?
Speaker 4 (38:08):
saw some really strange art pictures in my mind
for some reason I don't know why.
Speaker 5 (38:12):
I don't know what that brought to me, but yeah, oh
my gosh, it's crazy, that's,that's a that's a big connection
that John and I have in termsof you know, I'm looking at
children, he's looking at adults.
That accommodation it's notthat, you know, a lot of schools
will say, well, we don't havethe money for that, or we don't
(38:32):
have the space to do that, or wedon't have the trained
specialists to do that theystart going down the road of all
the things they don't have orcan't do, and it's the same in
an office situation.
They think it's going to becostly, they think we need
special lighting or this or that.
You know it's just startshooting it down before it's
even tried.
Speaker 4 (38:53):
You know, implemented , Such simple accommodations can
spawn such great success andhappiness oh goodness, you had
mentioned a foundation and I hadthat address right here on the
SpectrumFoundationorg.
Talk to us a little bit aboutthat and what you do with the
(39:16):
foundation and for the community.
Speaker 6 (39:19):
Well, it's really parallel to the book.
I mean it's, you know, it'screating awareness.
When I first got diagnosed Iwas like you know, like a lot of
people that are on the spectrum, I'm like I'm going to take all
of this.
So it's like the entire lowfunctioning, high functioning
battle and care except and Ikept just narrowing it down and
(39:46):
I ended up at 2E, that's.
That's kind of how it all works, because they're really the
only people like I on thespectrum that I can communicate
with.
It's, again, kind of hard toexplain, but that's kind of
where it went was towards twiceexceptionality.
I do life coaching, classic,what used to be called
(40:06):
Asperger's.
I find very difficult to lifecoach.
It's just I can't establish therapport, I can't get the
conversational turn.
Adults, you know, I mean theyimmediately want to talk,
they're immediately interestedin the subject matter.
(40:26):
So you know that kind of stuff.
But as far as the foundation'sgoals go, at this point it's
just awareness.
Unfortunately, I am veryhyper-focused on the for-profit
business right now.
At this moment.
Part of the goal of that is tobe able to put quite a bit of
capital back into the 501c3 andstart expanding what we're doing
(40:46):
.
But I'll get email messagesthat really it's nothing beyond
oh wow, now I understand myselfa lot better.
Or oh wow, I'm going to go seeka diagnosis.
So even in its passive role,it's still doing part of what I
want it to do.
But we'd really like to turn upthe volume on that when time
allows, and I'm at the age wherea lot of my friends are
(41:08):
starting to retire, semi-retire,and have more time to help with
stuff like that.
So you know, the kids are outof the house and they can go.
(41:29):
So at any rate, that's reallykind of the overall goal of it
is really awareness and thenpeople being able to look at it
and have some degree ofself-acceptance and realize that
they're not alone and thatthey're not broken and that in
all actuality, they're, in alarge part, of the people that
have contributed most to oursociety.
Speaker 4 (41:35):
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
And we'll we'll have to followeach other and read each other's
posts, because I'm sure we'veprobably said the same thing.
I've been reading the paragraphbefore, so I love that.
I love that, john.
No, it's.
It's been so nice to get toknow you both and, um, tell us
(41:56):
what we can find when we go toyour website, debra, as far as
how can can clients reach out toyou?
What does that process looklike for them?
Speaker 5 (42:09):
Right.
So if you go to my website,deborahgenerellicom, individuals
will find a lot of differentthings.
One of them is how I, how, whatmy passion is about, and then
they will find both our booksthere.
They'll find reviews of both ofour books there as well as on
(42:30):
Amazon, but they're there aswell A list of resources for
parents, adults that want tolearn about giftedness and twice
exceptionality, and thoseresources are broken down into
books and articles and podcastsand YouTube connections
different things that I'vealready found that I think are
(42:52):
amazing, and so they can justfind those right in one spot.
And then there's also ifparents or school districts want
to talk to me about supportingthem, advocating for them and
their needs.
There's that as well.
So it's a lot of differentconnections on my website and
that's where they can find me.
Speaker 4 (43:13):
I love that.
Well, it's been so nice to getto know you guys.
Thank you for being patient toget, to get, um, to get here.
I know I had to get throughthis summit that I just did,
which was phenomenal 18 hoursworth of amazing, uh,
information for the communityand, hopefully, just the world,
(43:34):
anybody who decides to go listen.
So, and it was streamed freefor the first time, which I was,
you know, not sure what thatwas gonna look like, but it was
phenomenal.
And um, which I was, you knownot sure what that was going to
look like, but it was phenomenal.
And, yeah, and I was going toask what are some of the what's,
some of the feedback from thebook that you've gotten, john?
(43:55):
That's just, you know, been thebest.
Speaker 6 (44:00):
Well, again, like I said, the reviews, the reviews,
reviews are there and obviouslythose kind of speak for
themselves.
But just just in general, um, abetter understanding of it.
I mean my you know, my friends,uh, first of all were the ones.
And deb spoke with my bestfriend, pierce, and the way, the
way that went down from mydiagnosis was I called him.
I was like, hey, look, here'swhat's you know, here's what
(44:22):
they're saying.
He called me back in 30 minutesand he's a very analytical
engineer, he's a really smartguy, and he was like, yep, I've
been looking for that for 45years.
That's exactly what it is.
So, then, kind of taking thatand then just expanding upon it.
But I mean, I've had feedbackfrom friends that really
appreciated it educators,parents, all different angles
(44:43):
and that was really one of ourgoals is Deb and I didn't want
to pigeonhole this to a specificaudience.
It's for HR managers, it's foreducators, it's for people
themselves.
It's the whole gamut and Ithink breaking it into those
three parts really helps withthat, because people are going
to be attracted to the different, you know.
You know what I mean.
Each one of those is going tobe something that people are
predominantly attracted to.
Speaker 4 (45:05):
So absolutely navigating neuro divergence.
Is that right?
Speaker 6 (45:11):
navigating neurodiversity neurodiversity.
Speaker 4 (45:13):
I thank you.
It's like what I can't betyping today and and talking at
the same time, for some reasonbut the way we talk.
Speaker 5 (45:24):
We talk quite a bit, sarah, in the first part of the
book about you know what isgiftedness, what is um, you know
what is autism, and then howthere's kind of a a thread that
pulls through those two um soindividuals that again don't
really see giftedness as aneurodiversity, which it is.
(45:47):
That's why, you know, when Italk to educators about these
kids, brains are workingdifferently and therefore their
behaviors sometimes aredifferent than the neurotypical
kid in the classroom.
That's really important tounderstand.
So there's a good breakdown ofthat in the first part of the
book.
And then everyone has to justsoak up the middle part, which
(46:07):
is all about John's life.
And you know I wish it couldhave been a 500 page book, but
our publishers, like you know,keep it to 300 pages or we're
talking about a textbook.
So yeah, and then the last partyou know, about how we can
support twice exceptionalindividuals, from children to
adults.
Speaker 4 (46:27):
Are there any other resources other than your guys'
websites that you'd like to giveto the community?
Speaker 5 (46:37):
I would just say, if you're going to my website,
click on the resource tab and,like I said, there is a lot of
information.
Speaker 4 (46:44):
Love that, love that?
Yeah, I think that it's.
I'm finding so many amazingorganizations and ways to get
support.
Every family is different.
Every individual is different,so find what you need, what
feels right for you, whatresonates.
Find what you need what feelsright for you, what resonates
and kind of sounds like.
(47:05):
John has already surroundedhimself with like-minded
individuals and friends of thatnature, so doing great.
Yeah, thank you so much foryour time today, both of you, I
appreciate it and yeah I wouldlove to stay in touch.
Yeah, absolutely.
Thanks for the opportunity.
Stay in touch.
Speaker 5 (47:23):
Yeah, absolutely Thanks for the opportunity.
Thank you.
Yeah, absolutely it was reallyfun, john, good seeing you.
Speaker 2 (47:46):
In the heart of the city.
She's shining bright, oh yeah,stories of love and courage All
throughout the night, her voiceresonating An anthem for all.
Through the trials and thetrials, she answers the call Her
mother and her father Breakingbarriers and strife, with love
as her guide.
(48:06):
She'll never hide.
She's changing the world foryou With her heart and speech
and strong Empathies and melody.
In her journey we all belong.
Followers gather like stars inthe night.
So bright, 44,000 voicessharing in the light.
(48:31):
She stands for family,advocates for more Movement of
compassion, ways we'll soarPodcasts together, symphony of
support In life change andreport.
She's changing the world foryou With a heart that's fierce
and strong.
(48:51):
Hypothese and melody A journeywe all belong.
Through her eyes, a visionclear.
Together we riseding fears inevery heart.
She plants the seed ofunderstanding and love,
appealing me.
She's changing the world foryou With a heart that's fierce
(49:27):
and strong.
Empathies and melodies In ajourney we all belong.
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