May 3, 2023 • 44 mins
In this episode of the Skeptic Metaphysicians podcast, hosts Will and Karen interview Donald Altman, a psychotherapist, former Buddhist monk, mindfulness expert, and award-winning author. The discussion centers around Altman's book, Travelers, and the spiritual quest it takes readers on, with the goal of proving that the spiritual world exists beyond our 3D perceptions.
Embarking on a spiritual journey of self-discovery, former Buddhist monk Donald Altman uncovered a powerful, life-altering secret within the depths of his soul. What mysteries will be unveiled when readers explore Donald's book, Travelers?
“When these anomalies happen in our lives, these things that we often think are coincidences maybe are not coincidence.” - Donald Altman
Other episodes you'll enjoy:
The Witch of Amesbury and Expanding Consciousness
https://www.skepticmetaphysician.com/the-witch-of-amesbury-and-expanding-consciousness-with-stephen-hawley-martin
Using Meditation for Radical Awakening
https://www.skepticmetaphysician.com/using-meditation-for-radical-awakening
A Former Intelligence Agent's View on Metaphysics https://www.skepticmetaphysician.com/superpowers
ABOUT OUR GUEST:
Donald Altman is a psychotherapist, former Buddhist monk, international mindfulness expert and award-winning author of over 20 books translated worldwide. Featured as an expert in The Mindfulness Movie and profiled in the Living Spiritual Teachers Project, he currently writes Psychology Today’s Practical Mindfulness Blog. His best-selling The Mindfulness Toolbox won two national publishing awards. His books, Clearing Emotional Clutter and The Mindfulness Code, were both chosen as “One of the Best Spiritual Books of the Year” by Spirituality & Practice.
Past Vice-President of The Center for Mindful Eating, he has taught mindfulness to over 15,000 health care and business professionals. His newest book is Travelers, a mystical and spiritual odyssey about a grieving psychiatrist who meets a mysterious Traveler in a story of healing, hope and renewal.
Resources:
Donald Altman’s Author Page
https://tinyurl.com/4ak76mua
Guest Info:
Website: https://mindfulpractices.com
Facebook: https://facebook.com/mndfulpractices
LinkedIN: https://www.linkedin.com/in/donald-altman-mindfulpractices
Connect With the Skeptic Metaphysicians:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/skepticmetaphysician_podcast
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SkepticMetaphysician
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcBaf4lhzharlTVxa6Vm9mg
Twitter: https://twitter.com/WillRodriguezFl
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Embarking on a spiritual journey of self-discovery, former Buddhist monk Donald Altman uncovered a powerful, life-altering secret within the depths of his soul. What mysteries will be unveiled when readers explore Donald's book, Travelers?
“When these anomalies happen in our lives, these things that we often think are coincidences maybe are not coincidence.” - Donald Altman
- Discern the differences between mindfulness and meditation, unlocking their advantages in everyday living.
- Delve into Donald Altman's transformative experiences as a Buddhist monk and his pursuit of self-improvement.
- Illuminate the connections between mental health struggles, spiritual awakening, and extraordinary realities.
- Probe into the world of synchronicity, quantum consciousness, and transcending the limitations of the material world.
- Triumph over fear while discovering significant therapeutic methods and embracing spiritual development.
Other episodes you'll enjoy:
The Witch of Amesbury and Expanding Consciousness
https://www.skepticmetaphysician.com/the-witch-of-amesbury-and-expanding-consciousness-with-stephen-hawley-martin
Using Meditation for Radical Awakening
https://www.skepticmetaphysician.com/using-meditation-for-radical-awakening
A Former Intelligence Agent's View on Metaphysics https://www.skepticmetaphysician.com/superpowers
ABOUT OUR GUEST:
Donald Altman is a psychotherapist, former Buddhist monk, international mindfulness expert and award-winning author of over 20 books translated worldwide. Featured as an expert in The Mindfulness Movie and profiled in the Living Spiritual Teachers Project, he currently writes Psychology Today’s Practical Mindfulness Blog. His best-selling The Mindfulness Toolbox won two national publishing awards. His books, Clearing Emotional Clutter and The Mindfulness Code, were both chosen as “One of the Best Spiritual Books of the Year” by Spirituality & Practice.
Past Vice-President of The Center for Mindful Eating, he has taught mindfulness to over 15,000 health care and business professionals. His newest book is Travelers, a mystical and spiritual odyssey about a grieving psychiatrist who meets a mysterious Traveler in a story of healing, hope and renewal.
Resources:
Donald Altman’s Author Page
https://tinyurl.com/4ak76mua
Guest Info:
Website: https://mindfulpractices.com
Facebook: https://facebook.com/mndfulpractices
LinkedIN: https://www.linkedin.com/in/donald-altman-mindfulpractices
Connect With the Skeptic Metaphysicians:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/skepticmetaphysician_podcast
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SkepticMetaphysician
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcBaf4lhzharlTVxa6Vm9mg
Twitter: https://twitter.com/WillRodriguezFl
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Karen. Yes, well, thisshow was originally created in an effort to
find if there really was more tous than just as three dimensional bodies we
inhabit, and for the most partwe've been exploring all the different modalities that
come along with the potential of provingthat the spiritual world actually exists. Well,
on this week's show, we're blessedto welcome someone who has dedicated his
(00:23):
life to doing just that, providingproof of that world just outside our to
be deep perception. Yes, well, let's see because he's written a book
that dives really deep into this topic. Well, he's written many books,
but we're going to talk about onein particular. We're talking about Travelers,
a book that takes readers on aspiritual quest that shifts consciousness. Me too,
(00:47):
Welcome to the skeptic metaposicians. Myname is Will and, unlike Molder
and Scully want So, we've embarkedin a journey of discovery. We've talked
to people deeply entrenched in the spiritualand physical world. We've thrown ourselves into
weird and wonderful experiences. I evenjoined a coven of witches and wait,
you joined a coven? Yep,all on the interest of finding something,
(01:08):
anything, that will prove that there'ssomething beyond this physical, three dimensional world
we all live in. This isthe skeptic metaphysicians. Today's Stories from the
(01:32):
Living Guida by Swami Satchidananda. Oncea fellow went into the jungle and became
very tired. He found a beautifultree and sat beneath it, but the
ground was thorny. He couldn't liedown anywhere. How nice it would be
if I had a small cot.The minute he thought of it, he
(01:52):
found himself sitting on a cot.Oh boy, I have a cot,
so he laid down. Well,this is very comfortable, but I'm also
hungry. I could use something toeat, maybe a banana. Well,
immediately a bunch of bananas appeared.What's this, He couldn't believe his eyes.
It seems that whatever I want Ican get here. Well, then
(02:15):
how about some gourmet cooking. Wellimmediately, plates filled with delicacies, delicious
dishes, putting desserts. They allappeared right in front of him. Well,
he ate sumptuously, and then thoughtit would be nice if there was
someone to massage my feet to putme to sleep. Even as he thought
(02:37):
it there was already a beautiful angellike person there massaging his feet. Understandably,
he became very excited. Oh itlooks like whatever I'm thinking, I'm
getting now. I have a comfortablebed, a good sumptuous meal, and
somebody to massage my feet. Ohbut what if when I'm getting them,
(03:00):
sage, I fall asleep and suddenlya tiger comes from the jungle. What's
going to happen then? Well,immediately he heard the roar and a tiger
appeared and devoured him. Well,what do you do with a person like
that? Yeah, he was undera boon giving tree. Whatever he wanted
he got. Unfortunately, sometimes peopleare like that. They can get everything
(03:22):
they want, but they don't knowwhat to ask for. Hey, guys,
wanted to let you know about anothershow that you should be listening to.
If you're like our show, we'resure you'll like this one too.
(03:43):
Welcome to Spirit Cherpa, the showthat helps and encourages you on your journey
to unlock your magic bojo. I'mthe Spirit Doctor Kelly Sparta, and I'm
here to walk you through the nextstage of your spiritual awakening. If you
were new, start at the beginningand you'll learn the basics from crystals and
tarot cards to how to evolve andgrow as a person. If you're further
along in your journey, then startin the middle and learn more esoteric concepts
(04:06):
as well as mythology, chakras,and how to become a light worker.
So, and I'm going to addin a ritual or two as well as
some sound healings that are going toknock your socks off. And I've got
some great guests that you're just gonnalove. I'm here to stitch together every
class you've ever taken into one bigworldview. Join us as we explore the
(04:28):
extent of the energy world and thedepths of ourselves, all while having a
great time. You can find meat spiritsripa podcast dot com or spirit Shripa
on your favorite podcast player. Question. Hi, I'm will and I'm carrying,
and today's main topic is one verydear to my heart. Donald Altman
(04:49):
is a psychotherapist, a former Buddhistmonk, an international mindfulness expert, and
an award winning author of over twentybooks translated worldwide. Now he's been featured
as an expert in the Mindfulness movie. He's been profiled in the Living Spiritual
Teachers Project and currently writes Psychology Today'sPractical Mindfulness blog. His best selling The
(05:13):
Mindfulness Toolbox won two National Publishing Awards, and his books Clearing Emotional Clutter and
The Mindfulness Code were both chosen asone of the best spiritual books of the
Year by Spirituality and Practice. Andif that wasn't enough, his newest book,
Travelers. It's a mystical and spiritualodyssey about a grieving psychiatrist who meets
(05:34):
a mysterious traveler in a story ofhealing, hope, and renewal. I
could not be more thrilled to welcomeDonald Alt into the show. Welcome Donald,
Hi Will, and Hi care.It's great to be here with you
today. I definitely want to diereally deeply into your book. But before
we do that, it's not oftenthat we get the chance to talk to
one of the foremost experts on thetopic of mindfulness. So we'd be remiss
(05:59):
if we didn't ask the obvious question, what's the difference between mindfulness and meditation
or is there even a difference?Well, well, there is a difference,
and that's a good question. Meditationis really about when you're focusing on
something. It could be you're focusingon the breath, focusing on an object,
or you're saying a montram, butyou're bringing your concentrated energy into one
(06:19):
thing. We're Mindfulness is really moreabout being aware of what's happening moment by
moment, whatever is entering your setsfields and paying attention to that. So
noticing your thoughts in the moment,noticing as I take this breath, noticing
the colors on the screen as I'mtalking to you. So it's really all
(06:39):
of that as you're moment by momentgoing through your day. It's a very
different experience. It's kind of ameditation. It's a meditation on the moment,
you might say, rather than anyone particular thing, which is more
meditation. So on steroids. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's very much
on the steroids. Yeah. Ithink that's a good way to describe it.
(07:01):
And you might think of it as, you know, being a little
scary for some people because you know, we're so distractable all the time,
or we you know, we're lookingat screens all the time. Everything's trying
to grab our attention. But mindfullnessalso brings in the idea of intentionality that
I can harness my attention, andI can use it the way I want
(07:25):
to, so for my benefit andfor the benefit of other Karen and I
have started a meditation practice. I'vestarted a little bit longer than kering it,
than to rub anything into any wounds. But mister meditators, and yet,
and yet, you are so muchbetter at it than I am,
right right off the bat. Buta lot of the meditations that we went
into have a lot of mindfulness init, right, The Calm app and
(07:47):
Headspace, they all do mindfulness meditations. So when we talk about meditations,
we're talking that means there's a wholegamut of types of meditation, But just
as much there's a whole game bitof types of mindfulness practices, right,
Because who are you the vice presidentof the Mindfulness Eating Yeah, I actually
the Center for Mindful Eating and Iwas vice president, and I you know,
(08:11):
and I think one of the thingsthat led me into mindfulness actually was
I was a mindless eater. AndI use I used food and yeah,
I you know, I never meta cookie I didn't like. And if
I was, you know, emotionalabout something I couldn't deal with something,
I would would eat food as away to, you know, kind of
(08:33):
medicate away my difficult emotions. Iwas an emotional eater, and probably you
know, most of us have donethat at some point or another. And
I when I went into the monastery, I actually spend time as a Buddhist
monk, and one of the thingsthat really interested may was how I might
be able to learn how to eatdifferently or understand my emotional eating. And
(08:58):
one of the things that happened,it's very funny. So I went in.
I went through this incredible two tothree hour initiation into the very ancient
practice, and then I got back. They showed myself in two other novice
monks a room. We said you'regoing to be staying here. There were
three beds on the floor. Ijust sat on one of those mattresses and
(09:20):
suddenly I had buyers remorse. Youknow, oh my god, what was
I thinking? And right in thatmoment, I really couldn't used some food
to distract me or make me feelbetter. But I had taken a vow
not to eat after twelve noon.Now the months would get up very early
in the morning. We would meditatearound six I get up around three thirty
(09:41):
in the morning. You're meditating,doing chanting. At around six o'clock,
you'd have a thirty minute breakfast andthen from eleven to twelve you'd have lunch,
but you wouldn't eat after that.And I really that was my greatest
fear, as could I do this? I didn't know. But anyway,
here I am, I getting themonastery. I'm sitting on that foodt on,
thinking how I needed something to helpcomfort me some you know, some
(10:05):
food would have been nice and uhand right then I looked to my left
and there was a bookshelf there andon this bookshelf I could not leave my
eyes will and Karen was a giantCadbury's chocolate bar. And my first thought,
yeah, I saw that. Myfirst thought wasn't never forget it.
Somebody set me up? But youknow, oh yeah, they knew I
(10:30):
was going to go to that,to that food t on. They knew
that I was gonna they put thisbig chocolate bar. I mean, nobody
knew I had this eating issue.But when I saw that chocolate bar,
in my mind went into a war. We've all been there, you know.
One side of me was I wantthat chocolate bar and I'll make me
feel better. The other side wasno, you took this vow. You
know you can't eat after twelve noon. You you know you can't eat the
(10:54):
chocolate bar. And there was thiswar going back and on. It was,
you know, it was really amazing. And then I think it must
have been an hour of hearing thiswar. Suddenly it was like I got
jolted and I was watching these twovoices, and it occurred to me right
then and there, well, Iyou know, who says I have to
do one or the other, Ican do both. I can crave the
(11:15):
chocolate bar, and yet I canstill follow my vow right. And it
was showing him. You know,I learned an important list in that moment
about how we can be a provideourselves. We can be a container for
all that exists within us, thechallenges, the good things, the bad
thing. We can we can holdit all and find wholeness actually in doing
(11:37):
that instead of getting reactive. Soit was a powerful lesson for me,
and I I found out that nobodyset me up, nobody put the chocolate
bar on that shelf to get me, so to speak. But I,
you know, people would donate thingsto the monks, all different kinds of
things, and they would put themin different places throughout the monastery. So
(11:58):
it wasn't nobody was personally trying toto you know, catch me with that
chocolate bar. Sure, well,you definitely are a kindred spirit, I'll
tell you that of mine. SoI have two questions. Yeah, when
did you go to bed? Youcan't eat after twelve? Like could you
go to bed at one? Butbecause if you're getting up at three?
(12:20):
Yes, yes, when was bedtime? Well, we went in the monastery.
You know, we would meditate,do all different kinds of meditations throughout
the entire day, and I thinkwe probably about nine or ten go to
bed. But then you get upat like PM, yeah, nine or
ten at night. Wow, youget up at three, three thirty in
the morning and start doing your didyou wake up rabbitus? You know,
(12:43):
it was a funny thing. Thisis a really amazing thing to me,
was that, you know, hereI was. I didn't believe that I
would be able to do this,uh, not eating after twelve noon.
Iff after the day before I wentto the monastery. I went and I
had this huge meal at this buffetthat I will about. It was going
to be my last meal, right, but I would the same thing.
(13:07):
What I discovered was that by usingmy concentrated energy like I was and focusing
my mind, that I was nothungry after twelve noon. It kind of
shocked me, you know, whenyou could have a tea or something to
drink in the afternoon, a juiceor a tea, that's all I would
have of but I did not havethe kind of hunger that I thought it
(13:28):
would have. It was really kindof amazing, and I'd think it was
the the you know, the qualityof focusing your mind, paying attention like
that, that I didn't have toneed all these other distractions. I didn't
need food to you know, tomedicate away anything. It's amazing that the
(13:48):
power of the mind right to getyou beyond certain limitations that you put on
yourself. Really, for the mostpart, it's really incredible. I mean,
yeah, some of the some ofthe Tibetan monks have a thing called
tumo, which is a practice ofheating the body up. And now Tibet
(14:09):
is a very harsh climate, reallycold, but they're able to go out
and actually melt the snow around theirbody and bring their body temperature off.
And actually it's really interesting if youcan raise the temperature in your extremities like
your hands, your fingertips in andyour toes. That will actually lower the
(14:31):
stress in your body. And I'vehad people in in therapy sessions where it
would have them put a little fingerthermometer on the tip of their finger,
and it would teach them how tofocus on bringing heat to their extremities,
and in a matter of minutes,five or ten minutes, they can lower
the temperature and their fingers raise thetemperature and their fingers rather about five or
(14:52):
ten degrees just in a matter ofminutes. That's the power. The power
of the mind is amazing, notunlike the power of menopause, because I
don't have a bunch of half flashingwomen like i'd probably melt some snow themselves.
But I want to know what broughtyou to that monastery, What made
(15:13):
you decide you wanted to go andenter this monastery? You know what brings
us to do most things that youknow that are going to be challenging or
difficult, is probably that the painof not doing that is even worse.
And I was suffering a lot ofthe time in my life. They're in
competitive, destructive patterns and I wantedto know, you know, how can
(15:37):
I understand this in a deeper way? And that's why I went in the
monastery. I met a monk.And it was funny at the time,
somebody said, oh, there's amonk I think I'd like you to meet.
And maybe that's a cautionary tale forpeople, because you meet this monk
and the next thing you know,you're they're shaving your hair and they're going
in the monastery. But but forme to self make that note, right,
(16:03):
what I learned. You know,you don't have to go in the
monastery, but you do have tobe willing, I think, to look
within and you know, look atthe dark places in ourselves, right,
look at the suffering that we have. Look at how you know, and
everybody's suffering some way, you know. I like to say, if you
have a human if you're in ahuman body, if you have a human
(16:23):
mind, you're gonna experience loss,You're gonna experience aging, different things.
You know, how do we hdeal with that in a way that is
compassionate, kind to ourselves and toothers. So there's tremendous lessons to learn
it. I mean, funny,when I met this monk. What drew
me to him was this incredible palpablesense of compassion and kindness that he had
(16:47):
about him. That I grew upin Chicago, and I have to tell
you, I didn't find people likethat monk hanging around on the street corners
of Chicago. They just weren't there. But I wanted to know how he
would Yeah, I wish I had, Yeah, But I wanted to know
how did he become like that?And is it possible for any of us
(17:10):
to attain a different kind of youknow, profoundly different way of thinking and
being and what you know, It'swhat I discovered when I got to meet
him in the monastery, because hewas the head of the he was like
the app or they called the sea. The monastery. It was a Terravada
Buddhist monastery. They were all Burmesemonks actually, and he was a Burmese
(17:33):
monk. And but he fortunately hespoke English well. But he what he
loved, Yeah, that was athat was a lucky, lucky thing.
What he loved to do was toteach the loving kindness meditation that was and
that is I think how he profoundlytransformed himself within by doing that in that
(17:56):
practice, like that loving kindness meditation. Everybody should do that, especially these
days, My goodness, we needit. Oh gosh. Yeah, Well,
we've got a lot to talk aboutbefore we get into the meat of
the topic. I think we probablyshould take a break so that we don't
interrupt the flow of our conversation.So we'll take a quick break right now.
(18:18):
But when we come back, we'regoing to dive into the book Travelers,
and specifically I want to talk aboutthe spiritual quest that is involved in
his book. You mentioned that there'smore to the material world than we can
normally feel or experience ourselves, andI really want to talk to you about
quantum consciousness, angels, even maybeby location, things like that. All
(18:41):
of that ran a whole lot morewhen we come back right after this welcome
back to the skeptic metivisicians. Weare talking to Donald Altman, who is
a former Buddhist monk and a prolificauthor of over twenty books that have been
(19:03):
translated into different languages across the world. His newest book, Travelers, is
a spiritual journey, and it isinteresting because this is not your typical spiritual
awakening book. This is actually astory that's kind of wrapped into a spiritual
exploration. What motivated you to writethis book? What's the what's the story
(19:25):
behind it? Well, you know, it's it's funny. I think the
story wrote me actually to tell youthe truth and the characters. I mean,
I didn't really know where this isgoing to go. It's you know,
I had this idea for a bookabout you know, why are we
here? What are we? Youknow? About the spiritual journey? And
(19:45):
I actually try to write it asa nonfiction book and it would refuse to
be a nonfiction book. And Ithought, you know what, I've got
to bring this alive in another way, and so I decided to do it
as a novel. And it's notI have to say though, it's not
a you know, if you wanta fluffy, greasy read this summer,
you know, this is not thatbook, but if you want, and
(20:08):
you know, it's really it's moreof an invitation into the unknown, into
the dark places in our souls orthe dark places in our lives, into
the things that we have to face, whether it's a mental illness or a
loss, you know, and howdo we get through that as a family.
There's some you know, and Ithink that is what drives us into
(20:29):
the spiritual quest. You know,you talked about you know, the material
world, and uh, you know, I think we're even the mental health
field I think is very steeped ina mechanical view view of things. So
take a pill, you know.Uh, you know, it's it's these
kind of simple ways of looking atthings when actually we're very complex. I
(20:51):
mean, how can you replace anemotion? Right? I mean I don't
know, so I you know,I wanted to have an invitation for people
to step into the unknown here throughthis book and to challenge the reader actually
and to take them to some placesmaybe they're you know, not really comfortable
(21:12):
being. Which is that that nonordinary reality, that that place where uh
you know, transformation can happen,where miracles can happen or the unseen becomes
known. And I think we're allcapable of doing that. So you said
that you're exploring the dark places weall have. So by dark is it
(21:37):
always is it always grief or somethingnegative? Or can it be just something
that we don't know about? Soit gives us that fear and makes it
feel dark. Yeah, it couldbe our own fears or something. It
could be our own shadow, Itcould be our blind spot, thing that
we don't are you know, arenot really willing to look at in ourselves.
I mean, it could be somethingwe share with another or it could
(22:00):
be, um, it could bedealing with that difficult situation at the office
or that that or you know,uh, not having things go your way
in life. I mean, somany different things we have to face.
Is not just grief. Loss comesin many different packages and shapes and forms,
(22:21):
doesn't it so, But whatever itis, it I think if we
can open up or open ourselves upat a willingness to enter the unknown,
right enter our own world of ofyou know, even our dreams. Think
(22:42):
about how amazing our dreams are.Our dreams take us out of the ordinary
and reality, and there may besomething to our dreams that um. You
know a lot of people have solvedproblems creatively by just dreaming people. Some
people have written books in their dreams. It's pretty amazing how we can tap
into a different world just in thatway. But you know, you guys
(23:04):
are doing meditation, that's another wonderfulway to connect with the non ordinary world.
And you are touching on some pointsthat I really wanted to make sure
we talked about because in your bookyou do talk about certain key phrases that
in the metaphysical and spiritual space,where if you mentioned these topics you automatically
(23:25):
get someone's attention, things like quantumconsciousness and by location, things like that.
And in your story you see thatthere's a lot more to this material
world than we can normally perceive,right, But you say you have proofs
of that, right, Well,here I'll give an example. This really
happened, you know. I hadwritten the book, and several months after
I'd written the book and the publisherhad it, I was out hiking at
(23:48):
a wilderness area I live in theoutside of Portland, and this is an
incredible wilderness area and this area isalso mentioned in the book. And in
the book, the character is outin this area a spiritual quest and it's
at night, and it's a dangerousarea, and he has an accident.
He falls and he gets injured insome different ways, and in a part
(24:11):
of the park that I actually atthe time had I'd been to the southern
part of the park, but neverthe north part of the park, and
I described the part of the parkthat I didn't really know, but I
described it, and here I was, in reality several months later out hiking
in that part of the park andI fell and had any sustained injuries that
were the same ones that my characterhad sustained in the book. And then
(24:38):
fortunately my wife was there and shehelped me out with the character didn't have
that luxury. And as I wasgoing out at this north end of the
park, I started looking around,I'm like, oh my god. I
described this in the book what Iwas in very precise detail in the book,
and I had never been there,so you know, that's astounding.
(25:04):
So it was just an example ofme. When it happened. I was
kind of shocked and I and maybethat was helpful to alleviate some of the
pain I was in, But itwas kind of like he across time and
space something had happened there. Therewas you know, would you call maybe
a synchronicity, something that was unexplainable, right, and yet two events linked
(25:30):
together that seemed non non local,right, but they were connected. And
so it was almost like an affirmationof you know, what I was trying
to say in the book. Andit's almost like it sounds almost like a
chicken in the egg thing, like, did you was this a prophetic thing
when you were writing it or didyou manifest it when you were writing it?
That's an interesting quote him, Well, that's yeah, yeah, I
(25:56):
mean that's a really good questions.Um, you know, I heard about
how that horror writer Stephen King hadwritten about that killer car I think it
was called Chris Staine, and thenhe almost got killed by a car some
years later. But again, Imean, who know what is the chicken
(26:18):
in the egg? I don't know, and I'm not sure if yeah,
I don't know which came first.But it really shows that, um,
you know, when these when theseum anomalies happened in our lives, these
things that we often think are coincidences, maybe are not coincidence. I mean,
Einstein didn't believe that any of thesethings happened our coincidences. He felt
(26:41):
that all things were somehow connected anddetermined. He he didn't understand the quantum
world he called it. He calledit spooky action at a distance or whatever
it was, because he could notunderstand, well, how does this really
happen? Makes you think twice aboutwriting certain things, doesn't it just be
(27:03):
a historian I mean, I've hadsome other experience of things that happened moments
after I thought of them. Onetime, and as many years ago,
I was in my twenties and Ihad a dream that I at that period
of my life, I was tryingsome acting, some different things, and
(27:27):
I had this dream that this guywas offering me a job to work with
this woman who I had met,and we'd be and be at at a
trade show and i'd be dressed upin a lab suit and she'd be dressed
so and so, and you know, we'd we'd be performing at this show.
And so I'm having this very vividdream and then my phone rings that
(27:51):
I woke me up, and Ipick up the phone and it's the guy
in the dream who had offered methe job is on the phone, offering
me the job and describing, yeah, and ascribing to me exactly all you'd
be working with Nancy, that wasthe woman in the dream. And you're
gonna be lab You're gonna be likedressed up in lab technician attire. And
(28:15):
and I had drapped it moments before. The details. Yeah, down to
the detail. Wow, I thinkwe're gonna call you spooky. Donald Aldman
now, well, that hasn't happenedvery much since then. It's maybe I'm
kind of happy that it hasn't,you know. I can just enjoy my
(28:37):
dreams not worry about them coming true. Now, in the book, you
really the the protagonist, for lackof a better word, of the book
is a psychiatrist. You opened upthe entire book saying, Hey, full
disclosure, this stuff has happened.I can't explain it, but you know,
I just wanted to kind of putit out there. You talk a
lot about psychiatric wards and things likethat. Do you have experience in these
(29:00):
types of environments? Yeah? Yeah, I mean I've worked in psychiatric intensive
outpatient clinics. In the story,it's a residential unit, and I've been
in several residential units, and actuallyhad somebody who works in a residential unit
rate through and make sure it wasaccurate in all, in all aspects to
(29:22):
what it's really like in there,what it looks like in there. But
I have had, you know,as a psychotherapist, been in those units.
So it's I wanted to bring peopleinto that world too, because I
think it's a world a lot ofpeople maybe wonder about or haven't really experienced
(29:42):
and and the psychiatrist. You know, he's kind of a cynical character.
He's seen it all and he's lost. He's had a great loss. I
don't want to give anything away inthe book, but he's had a great
loss in his life. And theinteresting thing is he can't heal himself,
right, but here he is tryingto work and heal others. And through
(30:03):
this journey that he takes, sheactually is able to transform how he feels
about the loss in his life.And the relationship with him and his wife
is a very key part of thebook as well. It's about, you
know, you know, a lossthat affects two people. Everybody heals in
a different way from a profound loss, so you know, that's also a
(30:26):
part of the book. But he'sinvited to take this journey and he made
some strange the strange traveler character andher dog who's a sentient canine, and
they bring themselves into his life inways he can't imagine. I am so
in speaking my language, I lovethese kinds of stories, Zoo. So
(30:48):
you're talking about a spiritual weakening typeof story that takes place in a psychiatric
ward. That is fascinating which bringsup my next question. There's a lot
of people that talk about schizophrenia andthings like that as maybe it's not a
mental illness, maybe they're just perceivingother world that we're not privy to.
(31:11):
What are your thoughts on that,Well, you know, there can be
I think that there can't be asmall number of cases maybe where somebody's having
a spiritual awakening experience that can maybemimic what schizophrenia is, and but in
(31:32):
those cases that would not be persistent. So somebody might have an awakening experience
in some way, a spiritual initiationat a time of great to rest in
their life. In fact, Iexperienced that actually in my twenties when I
was experiencing a major depressive disorder myselfand had some experiences out of body experiences
(31:57):
that I didn't understand at the time, but that I thought, who yeah,
and you know, it was almostlike a release. Felt was that
it gave me a sense of relief. I wasn't focused on it or obsessed
with it. It didn't affect myability to function, but it said,
hey, there's more to youth thanjust this physical world. And it made
(32:22):
me and it gave me a senseof hope actually or as schizophrenia is,
uh, you know, something's happening. The brain work or hallucinations and delusions
become so powerful that people can't getbeyond them, and they could become persistent
and they can actually hinder someone's abilityto function in this world. So then
(32:47):
is when you would want, ofcourse, medication. There are whole new
ways now, you know, ofof working with schizophrenia. If you get
somebody very early and you you know, in the first a couple of years
to two to five years when they'refirst getting these symptoms and work with them,
you can have good success. Butoften it becomes a persistent problem,
(33:12):
and medication can help really tamp downon those elucidations quite a bit and help
people function more. So it butI think in a very very small number
of cases it can maybe appear tomimic schizophrenia. Now, when I was
experiencing that, I did not sharethat with my with the person who was
(33:35):
treating me for depression at the time, and it's probably a good thing I
didn't because it was temporary and itdidn't leave me feeling bad in any way.
Right, So I think there's youknow, kind of a difference.
I'm not telling people to not toshare with someone if they're experiencing, you
(33:57):
know, symptoms, but you haveto you know, ask, you know,
am I able to function in thisworld? And that's the important thing.
Sure, And that is really greatinformation because time after time when we're
speaking to different guests and they talkabout their spiritual weak and the kind of
one thing they all say is Ifelt like I was going crazy, you
know, I was hearing these voicesor I was saying things that I wouldn't
(34:21):
normally say. Or but now withyou saying more, it's like if it's
prohibiting you from living a normal life, that's a different thing. That's good
to know. Yeah, I mean, if voices are persistent and they're telling
you to do things that are nothelpful things, there's a problem there and
that needs to be treated, youknow. But it's just spiritual awakenings or
(34:46):
different kinds of spiritual experiences can happen, and they can happen when we're awake,
you know. But again the ideais how are we able to you
know, keep moving forward in ourlives. And if they're stopping us,
if they're creating fear, or they'recreating paranoia, then that's not normal.
(35:09):
Well, in your book, stayingon the mental health topic. In your
book, you seem to say thatthere are other ways of healing mental illness
other than the traditional ways. Canyou recommend them? Yeah? I think
you know, one of the onesthat I've been that I work with is
mindfulness as a tool for helping people. Mindfulness has come into the field of
(35:32):
mental health and is helping a lotof people heal from depression and anxiety and
actually reducing those symptoms as much asas in some cases medication. Now,
I'm not saying it's a substitute.I think everybody's different and some people need
medications. People can use a combinationof the two. Right, different kinds
(35:59):
of coping skills, coping tools thatbe many, many different kinds of those.
Uh. I think what's important is, you know, when you're when
you're when you're asking for help,is that you meet with somebody who you
have a rapport with. Uh.And that connection with the healer or the
therapist is really important. Uh.You know, it's been shown that that
(36:21):
connection is more important even than themodality you're using. You know, there's
a there's a sex, there's amoment in the book when the when the
character says something that the psychiatrist sayssomething to his patient and he blurts out
something that he doesn't mean to andand uh, you know, he apologizes
in that moment for it, andthey end up having a moment together where
(36:44):
they laugh, you know, andthat is very healing. And you know,
it's funny. I've hand those momentswith clients, those moments where something
happens, uh, off the walland you start laughing at it together,
and that's a very healing moment.And you can't replicate that. You know.
Sometimes therapy comes in, you know, really uncertain, unexpected ways,
(37:07):
unexpected ways. And that's also anothergood key point, you know, just
because you might not have that connectionwith with the therapist. So maybe trying
to the therapist, but don't giveup on therapy, right, that's a
good point and it works, soI'm not going back. Yeah, And
you know, I'm interesting thing abouttherapy is, you know, I've had
(37:28):
I'm going I've had people come tome and they'll say, well, Donald,
tell me what I should do here. You know, you must know
you're you know, you're kind ofexperience in this and I'll say, well,
no, I can't tell you.If I tell you what to do
and it doesn't work out, whoare you going to blame me or or
find favor please? Yeah? Orif it does work out and you're gonna
(37:52):
think, well, us really wasn'tmy idea, So you know, you
really it's about just trying to helpif someone find their own wisdom, find
their own path, their own journey, and you know that I think is
wonderful where I think we're all hereon a journey in a way, and
(38:12):
that's really what trawlers about, ishow do we open up and explore the
different pathways that are available to usto see things in new ways? Right?
Absolutely getting back to your book quicklybecause we're running out of time,
but I want to make sure thatwe really focus on it for a second.
(38:32):
Who did you write this book for? Who should go out there and
get it right now? You know, anybody? I think this book is
for anybody who wants to explore deepermeaning for themselves, anybody who wants to
overcome grief, anybody who wants tofind you know, what's stopping them,
(38:53):
what's blocking them, and how theycan connect with the world, with nature,
with the with the magical parts ofthemselves that are maybe hidden from view,
and you know, overcome fear.That's also what this book is about.
If you're being blocked by your fearof the unknown, you're fear to
(39:14):
do something, to be brave andtake a chance, and I think this
book is for you. Well,I'm a sucker for Way to Piece,
for Warriors, lesson Prophecy, thesetypes of books that tell a story and
narrative, but that contain great messagesinside of it. I your book is
(39:34):
right up my alley. You definitelyhave another sale on your hands now as
soon as we got conversation, becauseit sounds like it's a great book.
Is there anything else that you thinkpeople need to know about you or the
book before that they move forward withgetting it? Sure? Well, you
know you can find out more aboutme, and I've written a lot of
different books and a lot of them. Some of them are being used in
treatment centers. A lot of cliniciansuse them. You can find out more
(39:58):
at Mike full Practices dot com.It's m i Nbful Practices dot com and
that's my website. You can joinme on the Psychology Today website. I
do the Mindful Practical Mindfulness blog.And also I have a reflector like a
meditation group on Facebook and it's Facebookdot com Forward slash mnd full Mindful without
(40:27):
the Eye practices, so you canfind me. Find me there, wonderful.
We're going to add all those linksdirectly to our show notes, so
if you'd like to access any ofthose, don't need to get a pen.
You can go right to skeptic menavisitiondot com right now, go to
his episode page. You'll see allthose links laid in there directly for you.
Makes it super easy and convenient.Donald, this has been absolutely wonderful,
(40:52):
fascinating, exciting all the same time. I can't thank you enough for
coming and sharing of your expertise withus. Well, thank you so much.
I know if I was able toprove to you anything, but I
tried, you did. I mean, you gave me a more that's the
right world, not concise way ofthinking about it, but more of a
practical way of thinking about things andputting two and two together. For me,
(41:13):
talking about your release of ash projectionis what gave you that proof of
the non material world. It justit gives me such perfect validation because everyone
who listens to the show, knowsthat that's the one astral projection. That's
the thing. That's what I needto know for sure. This stuff exists,
so I know it. I knowit works, so I'm going to
continue on this path. Well,thanks again, it was joy being both
(41:37):
of you. It was our pleasurecompletely. Thank you so much. Today's
listener feedback corner comes from Tim Varusand Tim, I'm so sorry I mispronounced
your name. It's spelled v Or u Z. I'm not really hundred
percent sure how to say that,but he sent us a message directly through
our website, and he was askingus whether or not we've actually experienced the
(42:00):
Indian palmlely freading modality. Tim,we've not yet experienced it ourselves, though
we are fascinated by it and dodefinitely want to try it, but we've
not had a chance to do soyet. But if and when we do,
we will be sure to share withyou what our experience was. Now.
He goes on to say, Ireally enjoy your show and have listened
(42:22):
to almost every show. I hopeyou do spin this off into a TV
show, but please keep up withthe podcasts as a way to screen your
TV possibilities and keep us informed whilewe drive Well him not to worry,
we are not going anywhere. Thispodcast is our labor of love, and
when we do spin off to atelevision show, this audio podcast is still
(42:44):
going to be around because we candive a lot deeper into the topics on
this show than we could on TV. Tim thinks again for sending us this
note. Really appreciate it, andif you would like to hear your message
on the air, please feel freeto go to Skeptic Metaphysician dot com.
You can leave us a voicemail ora review, or send us an email
directly from the site. We'd loveto hear from you, and you never
(43:07):
know, you might just hear yourwords here on the air in a future
episode. Well, thanks for comingalong on this journey discovery with us.
We'd love to continue our conversation withyou on our website at Skeptic Metaphysician dot
com or on Facebook and Instagram undera Skeptic Metaphysician podcast. If you know
(43:28):
someone who would benefit from hearing themessages we're sharing on the show, do
them and us a favor and sharethe show with them. It will help
get the word out about us andit may just change someone's life for the
better. And if you're listening tothis on the radio and you missed something,
not to worry. All of ourshows, including this one, can
be found at Skeptic metaphysician dot com. We can also watch the videos or
(43:51):
even send us an email or voicemaildirectly from the site. We absolutely love
feedback and would appreciate hearing from you. I hope you've enjoyed this episode much
as we have. That's all fornow. We'll see you on the next
episode of the Skeptic Metaphysicians. Untilthen, take care,
Karen. Yes, well, thisshow was originally created in an effort to
find if there really was more tous than just as three dimensional bodies we
inhabit, and for the most partwe've been exploring all the different modalities that
come along with the potential of provingthat the spiritual world actually exists. Well,
on this week's show, we're blessedto welcome someone who has dedicated his
(00:23):
life to doing just that, providingproof of that world just outside our to
be deep perception. Yes, well, let's see because he's written a book
that dives really deep into this topic. Well, he's written many books,
but we're going to talk about onein particular. We're talking about Travelers,
a book that takes readers on aspiritual quest that shifts consciousness. Me too,
(00:47):
Welcome to the skeptic metaposicians. Myname is Will and, unlike Molder
and Scully want So, we've embarkedin a journey of discovery. We've talked
to people deeply entrenched in the spiritualand physical world. We've thrown ourselves into
weird and wonderful experiences. I evenjoined a coven of witches and wait,
you joined a coven? Yep,all on the interest of finding something,
(01:08):
anything, that will prove that there'ssomething beyond this physical, three dimensional world
we all live in. This isthe skeptic metaphysicians. Today's Stories from the
(01:32):
Living Guida by Swami Satchidananda. Oncea fellow went into the jungle and became
very tired. He found a beautifultree and sat beneath it, but the
ground was thorny. He couldn't liedown anywhere. How nice it would be
if I had a small cot.The minute he thought of it, he
(01:52):
found himself sitting on a cot.Oh boy, I have a cot,
so he laid down. Well,this is very comfortable, but I'm also
hungry. I could use something toeat, maybe a banana. Well,
immediately a bunch of bananas appeared.What's this, He couldn't believe his eyes.
It seems that whatever I want Ican get here. Well, then
(02:15):
how about some gourmet cooking. Wellimmediately, plates filled with delicacies, delicious
dishes, putting desserts. They allappeared right in front of him. Well,
he ate sumptuously, and then thoughtit would be nice if there was
someone to massage my feet to putme to sleep. Even as he thought
(02:37):
it there was already a beautiful angellike person there massaging his feet. Understandably,
he became very excited. Oh itlooks like whatever I'm thinking, I'm
getting now. I have a comfortablebed, a good sumptuous meal, and
somebody to massage my feet. Ohbut what if when I'm getting them,
(03:00):
sage, I fall asleep and suddenlya tiger comes from the jungle. What's
going to happen then? Well,immediately he heard the roar and a tiger
appeared and devoured him. Well,what do you do with a person like
that? Yeah, he was undera boon giving tree. Whatever he wanted
he got. Unfortunately, sometimes peopleare like that. They can get everything
(03:22):
they want, but they don't knowwhat to ask for. Hey, guys,
wanted to let you know about anothershow that you should be listening to.
If you're like our show, we'resure you'll like this one too.
(03:43):
Welcome to Spirit Cherpa, the showthat helps and encourages you on your journey
to unlock your magic bojo. I'mthe Spirit Doctor Kelly Sparta, and I'm
here to walk you through the nextstage of your spiritual awakening. If you
were new, start at the beginningand you'll learn the basics from crystals and
tarot cards to how to evolve andgrow as a person. If you're further
along in your journey, then startin the middle and learn more esoteric concepts
(04:06):
as well as mythology, chakras,and how to become a light worker.
So, and I'm going to addin a ritual or two as well as
some sound healings that are going toknock your socks off. And I've got
some great guests that you're just gonnalove. I'm here to stitch together every
class you've ever taken into one bigworldview. Join us as we explore the
(04:28):
extent of the energy world and thedepths of ourselves, all while having a
great time. You can find meat spiritsripa podcast dot com or spirit Shripa
on your favorite podcast player. Question. Hi, I'm will and I'm carrying,
and today's main topic is one verydear to my heart. Donald Altman
(04:49):
is a psychotherapist, a former Buddhistmonk, an international mindfulness expert, and
an award winning author of over twentybooks translated worldwide. Now he's been featured
as an expert in the Mindfulness movie. He's been profiled in the Living Spiritual
Teachers Project and currently writes Psychology Today'sPractical Mindfulness blog. His best selling The
(05:13):
Mindfulness Toolbox won two National Publishing Awards, and his books Clearing Emotional Clutter and
The Mindfulness Code were both chosen asone of the best spiritual books of the
Year by Spirituality and Practice. Andif that wasn't enough, his newest book,
Travelers. It's a mystical and spiritualodyssey about a grieving psychiatrist who meets
(05:34):
a mysterious traveler in a story ofhealing, hope, and renewal. I
could not be more thrilled to welcomeDonald Alt into the show. Welcome Donald,
Hi Will, and Hi care.It's great to be here with you
today. I definitely want to diereally deeply into your book. But before
we do that, it's not oftenthat we get the chance to talk to
one of the foremost experts on thetopic of mindfulness. So we'd be remiss
(05:59):
if we didn't ask the obvious question, what's the difference between mindfulness and meditation
or is there even a difference?Well, well, there is a difference,
and that's a good question. Meditationis really about when you're focusing on
something. It could be you're focusingon the breath, focusing on an object,
or you're saying a montram, butyou're bringing your concentrated energy into one
(06:19):
thing. We're Mindfulness is really moreabout being aware of what's happening moment by
moment, whatever is entering your setsfields and paying attention to that. So
noticing your thoughts in the moment,noticing as I take this breath, noticing
the colors on the screen as I'mtalking to you. So it's really all
(06:39):
of that as you're moment by momentgoing through your day. It's a very
different experience. It's kind of ameditation. It's a meditation on the moment,
you might say, rather than anyone particular thing, which is more
meditation. So on steroids. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's very much
on the steroids. Yeah. Ithink that's a good way to describe it.
(07:01):
And you might think of it as, you know, being a little
scary for some people because you know, we're so distractable all the time,
or we you know, we're lookingat screens all the time. Everything's trying
to grab our attention. But mindfullnessalso brings in the idea of intentionality that
I can harness my attention, andI can use it the way I want
(07:25):
to, so for my benefit andfor the benefit of other Karen and I
have started a meditation practice. I'vestarted a little bit longer than kering it,
than to rub anything into any wounds. But mister meditators, and yet,
and yet, you are so muchbetter at it than I am,
right right off the bat. Buta lot of the meditations that we went
into have a lot of mindfulness init, right, The Calm app and
(07:47):
Headspace, they all do mindfulness meditations. So when we talk about meditations,
we're talking that means there's a wholegamut of types of meditation, But just
as much there's a whole game bitof types of mindfulness practices, right,
Because who are you the vice presidentof the Mindfulness Eating Yeah, I actually
the Center for Mindful Eating and Iwas vice president, and I you know,
(08:11):
and I think one of the thingsthat led me into mindfulness actually was
I was a mindless eater. AndI use I used food and yeah,
I you know, I never meta cookie I didn't like. And if
I was, you know, emotionalabout something I couldn't deal with something,
I would would eat food as away to, you know, kind of
(08:33):
medicate away my difficult emotions. Iwas an emotional eater, and probably you
know, most of us have donethat at some point or another. And
I when I went into the monastery, I actually spend time as a Buddhist
monk, and one of the thingsthat really interested may was how I might
be able to learn how to eatdifferently or understand my emotional eating. And
(08:58):
one of the things that happened,it's very funny. So I went in.
I went through this incredible two tothree hour initiation into the very ancient
practice, and then I got back. They showed myself in two other novice
monks a room. We said you'regoing to be staying here. There were
three beds on the floor. Ijust sat on one of those mattresses and
(09:20):
suddenly I had buyers remorse. Youknow, oh my god, what was
I thinking? And right in thatmoment, I really couldn't used some food
to distract me or make me feelbetter. But I had taken a vow
not to eat after twelve noon.Now the months would get up very early
in the morning. We would meditatearound six I get up around three thirty
(09:41):
in the morning. You're meditating,doing chanting. At around six o'clock,
you'd have a thirty minute breakfast andthen from eleven to twelve you'd have lunch,
but you wouldn't eat after that.And I really that was my greatest
fear, as could I do this? I didn't know. But anyway,
here I am, I getting themonastery. I'm sitting on that foodt on,
thinking how I needed something to helpcomfort me some you know, some
(10:05):
food would have been nice and uhand right then I looked to my left
and there was a bookshelf there andon this bookshelf I could not leave my
eyes will and Karen was a giantCadbury's chocolate bar. And my first thought,
yeah, I saw that. Myfirst thought wasn't never forget it.
Somebody set me up? But youknow, oh yeah, they knew I
(10:30):
was going to go to that,to that food t on. They knew
that I was gonna they put thisbig chocolate bar. I mean, nobody
knew I had this eating issue.But when I saw that chocolate bar,
in my mind went into a war. We've all been there, you know.
One side of me was I wantthat chocolate bar and I'll make me
feel better. The other side wasno, you took this vow. You
know you can't eat after twelve noon. You you know you can't eat the
(10:54):
chocolate bar. And there was thiswar going back and on. It was,
you know, it was really amazing. And then I think it must
have been an hour of hearing thiswar. Suddenly it was like I got
jolted and I was watching these twovoices, and it occurred to me right
then and there, well, Iyou know, who says I have to
do one or the other, Ican do both. I can crave the
(11:15):
chocolate bar, and yet I canstill follow my vow right. And it
was showing him. You know,I learned an important list in that moment
about how we can be a provideourselves. We can be a container for
all that exists within us, thechallenges, the good things, the bad
thing. We can we can holdit all and find wholeness actually in doing
(11:37):
that instead of getting reactive. Soit was a powerful lesson for me,
and I I found out that nobodyset me up, nobody put the chocolate
bar on that shelf to get me, so to speak. But I,
you know, people would donate thingsto the monks, all different kinds of
things, and they would put themin different places throughout the monastery. So
(11:58):
it wasn't nobody was personally trying toto you know, catch me with that
chocolate bar. Sure, well,you definitely are a kindred spirit, I'll
tell you that of mine. SoI have two questions. Yeah, when
did you go to bed? Youcan't eat after twelve? Like could you
go to bed at one? Butbecause if you're getting up at three?
(12:20):
Yes, yes, when was bedtime? Well, we went in the monastery.
You know, we would meditate,do all different kinds of meditations throughout
the entire day, and I thinkwe probably about nine or ten go to
bed. But then you get upat like PM, yeah, nine or
ten at night. Wow, youget up at three, three thirty in
the morning and start doing your didyou wake up rabbitus? You know,
(12:43):
it was a funny thing. Thisis a really amazing thing to me,
was that, you know, hereI was. I didn't believe that I
would be able to do this,uh, not eating after twelve noon.
Iff after the day before I wentto the monastery. I went and I
had this huge meal at this buffetthat I will about. It was going
to be my last meal, right, but I would the same thing.
(13:07):
What I discovered was that by usingmy concentrated energy like I was and focusing
my mind, that I was nothungry after twelve noon. It kind of
shocked me, you know, whenyou could have a tea or something to
drink in the afternoon, a juiceor a tea, that's all I would
have of but I did not havethe kind of hunger that I thought it
(13:28):
would have. It was really kindof amazing, and I'd think it was
the the you know, the qualityof focusing your mind, paying attention like
that, that I didn't have toneed all these other distractions. I didn't
need food to you know, tomedicate away anything. It's amazing that the
(13:48):
power of the mind right to getyou beyond certain limitations that you put on
yourself. Really, for the mostpart, it's really incredible. I mean,
yeah, some of the some ofthe Tibetan monks have a thing called
tumo, which is a practice ofheating the body up. And now Tibet
(14:09):
is a very harsh climate, reallycold, but they're able to go out
and actually melt the snow around theirbody and bring their body temperature off.
And actually it's really interesting if youcan raise the temperature in your extremities like
your hands, your fingertips in andyour toes. That will actually lower the
(14:31):
stress in your body. And I'vehad people in in therapy sessions where it
would have them put a little fingerthermometer on the tip of their finger,
and it would teach them how tofocus on bringing heat to their extremities,
and in a matter of minutes,five or ten minutes, they can lower
the temperature and their fingers raise thetemperature and their fingers rather about five or
(14:52):
ten degrees just in a matter ofminutes. That's the power. The power
of the mind is amazing, notunlike the power of menopause, because I
don't have a bunch of half flashingwomen like i'd probably melt some snow themselves.
But I want to know what broughtyou to that monastery, What made
(15:13):
you decide you wanted to go andenter this monastery? You know what brings
us to do most things that youknow that are going to be challenging or
difficult, is probably that the painof not doing that is even worse.
And I was suffering a lot ofthe time in my life. They're in
competitive, destructive patterns and I wantedto know, you know, how can
(15:37):
I understand this in a deeper way? And that's why I went in the
monastery. I met a monk.And it was funny at the time,
somebody said, oh, there's amonk I think I'd like you to meet.
And maybe that's a cautionary tale forpeople, because you meet this monk
and the next thing you know,you're they're shaving your hair and they're going
in the monastery. But but forme to self make that note, right,
(16:03):
what I learned. You know,you don't have to go in the
monastery, but you do have tobe willing, I think, to look
within and you know, look atthe dark places in ourselves, right,
look at the suffering that we have. Look at how you know, and
everybody's suffering some way, you know. I like to say, if you
have a human if you're in ahuman body, if you have a human
(16:23):
mind, you're gonna experience loss,You're gonna experience aging, different things.
You know, how do we hdeal with that in a way that is
compassionate, kind to ourselves and toothers. So there's tremendous lessons to learn
it. I mean, funny,when I met this monk. What drew
me to him was this incredible palpablesense of compassion and kindness that he had
(16:47):
about him. That I grew upin Chicago, and I have to tell
you, I didn't find people likethat monk hanging around on the street corners
of Chicago. They just weren't there. But I wanted to know how he
would Yeah, I wish I had, Yeah, But I wanted to know
how did he become like that?And is it possible for any of us
(17:10):
to attain a different kind of youknow, profoundly different way of thinking and
being and what you know, It'swhat I discovered when I got to meet
him in the monastery, because hewas the head of the he was like
the app or they called the sea. The monastery. It was a Terravada
Buddhist monastery. They were all Burmesemonks actually, and he was a Burmese
(17:33):
monk. And but he fortunately hespoke English well. But he what he
loved, Yeah, that was athat was a lucky, lucky thing.
What he loved to do was toteach the loving kindness meditation that was and
that is I think how he profoundlytransformed himself within by doing that in that
(17:56):
practice, like that loving kindness meditation. Everybody should do that, especially these
days, My goodness, we needit. Oh gosh. Yeah, Well,
we've got a lot to talk aboutbefore we get into the meat of
the topic. I think we probablyshould take a break so that we don't
interrupt the flow of our conversation.So we'll take a quick break right now.
(18:18):
But when we come back, we'regoing to dive into the book Travelers,
and specifically I want to talk aboutthe spiritual quest that is involved in
his book. You mentioned that there'smore to the material world than we can
normally feel or experience ourselves, andI really want to talk to you about
quantum consciousness, angels, even maybeby location, things like that. All
(18:41):
of that ran a whole lot morewhen we come back right after this welcome
back to the skeptic metivisicians. Weare talking to Donald Altman, who is
a former Buddhist monk and a prolificauthor of over twenty books that have been
(19:03):
translated into different languages across the world. His newest book, Travelers, is
a spiritual journey, and it isinteresting because this is not your typical spiritual
awakening book. This is actually astory that's kind of wrapped into a spiritual
exploration. What motivated you to writethis book? What's the what's the story
(19:25):
behind it? Well, you know, it's it's funny. I think the
story wrote me actually to tell youthe truth and the characters. I mean,
I didn't really know where this isgoing to go. It's you know,
I had this idea for a bookabout you know, why are we
here? What are we? Youknow? About the spiritual journey? And
(19:45):
I actually try to write it asa nonfiction book and it would refuse to
be a nonfiction book. And Ithought, you know what, I've got
to bring this alive in another way, and so I decided to do it
as a novel. And it's notI have to say though, it's not
a you know, if you wanta fluffy, greasy read this summer,
you know, this is not thatbook, but if you want, and
(20:08):
you know, it's really it's moreof an invitation into the unknown, into
the dark places in our souls orthe dark places in our lives, into
the things that we have to face, whether it's a mental illness or a
loss, you know, and howdo we get through that as a family.
There's some you know, and Ithink that is what drives us into
(20:29):
the spiritual quest. You know,you talked about you know, the material
world, and uh, you know, I think we're even the mental health
field I think is very steeped ina mechanical view view of things. So
take a pill, you know.Uh, you know, it's it's these
kind of simple ways of looking atthings when actually we're very complex. I
(20:51):
mean, how can you replace anemotion? Right? I mean I don't
know, so I you know,I wanted to have an invitation for people
to step into the unknown here throughthis book and to challenge the reader actually
and to take them to some placesmaybe they're you know, not really comfortable
(21:12):
being. Which is that that nonordinary reality, that that place where uh
you know, transformation can happen,where miracles can happen or the unseen becomes
known. And I think we're allcapable of doing that. So you said
that you're exploring the dark places weall have. So by dark is it
(21:37):
always is it always grief or somethingnegative? Or can it be just something
that we don't know about? Soit gives us that fear and makes it
feel dark. Yeah, it couldbe our own fears or something. It
could be our own shadow, Itcould be our blind spot, thing that
we don't are you know, arenot really willing to look at in ourselves.
I mean, it could be somethingwe share with another or it could
(22:00):
be, um, it could bedealing with that difficult situation at the office
or that that or you know,uh, not having things go your way
in life. I mean, somany different things we have to face.
Is not just grief. Loss comesin many different packages and shapes and forms,
(22:21):
doesn't it so, But whatever itis, it I think if we
can open up or open ourselves upat a willingness to enter the unknown,
right enter our own world of ofyou know, even our dreams. Think
(22:42):
about how amazing our dreams are.Our dreams take us out of the ordinary
and reality, and there may besomething to our dreams that um. You
know a lot of people have solvedproblems creatively by just dreaming people. Some
people have written books in their dreams. It's pretty amazing how we can tap
into a different world just in thatway. But you know, you guys
(23:04):
are doing meditation, that's another wonderfulway to connect with the non ordinary world.
And you are touching on some pointsthat I really wanted to make sure
we talked about because in your bookyou do talk about certain key phrases that
in the metaphysical and spiritual space,where if you mentioned these topics you automatically
(23:25):
get someone's attention, things like quantumconsciousness and by location, things like that.
And in your story you see thatthere's a lot more to this material
world than we can normally perceive,right, But you say you have proofs
of that, right, Well,here I'll give an example. This really
happened, you know. I hadwritten the book, and several months after
I'd written the book and the publisherhad it, I was out hiking at
(23:48):
a wilderness area I live in theoutside of Portland, and this is an
incredible wilderness area and this area isalso mentioned in the book. And in
the book, the character is outin this area a spiritual quest and it's
at night, and it's a dangerousarea, and he has an accident.
He falls and he gets injured insome different ways, and in a part
(24:11):
of the park that I actually atthe time had I'd been to the southern
part of the park, but neverthe north part of the park, and
I described the part of the parkthat I didn't really know, but I
described it, and here I was, in reality several months later out hiking
in that part of the park andI fell and had any sustained injuries that
were the same ones that my characterhad sustained in the book. And then
(24:38):
fortunately my wife was there and shehelped me out with the character didn't have
that luxury. And as I wasgoing out at this north end of the
park, I started looking around,I'm like, oh my god. I
described this in the book what Iwas in very precise detail in the book,
and I had never been there,so you know, that's astounding.
(25:04):
So it was just an example ofme. When it happened. I was
kind of shocked and I and maybethat was helpful to alleviate some of the
pain I was in, But itwas kind of like he across time and
space something had happened there. Therewas you know, would you call maybe
a synchronicity, something that was unexplainable, right, and yet two events linked
(25:30):
together that seemed non non local,right, but they were connected. And
so it was almost like an affirmationof you know, what I was trying
to say in the book. Andit's almost like it sounds almost like a
chicken in the egg thing, like, did you was this a prophetic thing
when you were writing it or didyou manifest it when you were writing it?
That's an interesting quote him, Well, that's yeah, yeah, I
(25:56):
mean that's a really good questions.Um, you know, I heard about
how that horror writer Stephen King hadwritten about that killer car I think it
was called Chris Staine, and thenhe almost got killed by a car some
years later. But again, Imean, who know what is the chicken
(26:18):
in the egg? I don't know, and I'm not sure if yeah,
I don't know which came first.But it really shows that, um,
you know, when these when theseum anomalies happened in our lives, these
things that we often think are coincidences, maybe are not coincidence. I mean,
Einstein didn't believe that any of thesethings happened our coincidences. He felt
(26:41):
that all things were somehow connected anddetermined. He he didn't understand the quantum
world he called it. He calledit spooky action at a distance or whatever
it was, because he could notunderstand, well, how does this really
happen? Makes you think twice aboutwriting certain things, doesn't it just be
(27:03):
a historian I mean, I've hadsome other experience of things that happened moments
after I thought of them. Onetime, and as many years ago,
I was in my twenties and Ihad a dream that I at that period
of my life, I was tryingsome acting, some different things, and
(27:27):
I had this dream that this guywas offering me a job to work with
this woman who I had met,and we'd be and be at at a
trade show and i'd be dressed upin a lab suit and she'd be dressed
so and so, and you know, we'd we'd be performing at this show.
And so I'm having this very vividdream and then my phone rings that
(27:51):
I woke me up, and Ipick up the phone and it's the guy
in the dream who had offered methe job is on the phone, offering
me the job and describing, yeah, and ascribing to me exactly all you'd
be working with Nancy, that wasthe woman in the dream. And you're
gonna be lab You're gonna be likedressed up in lab technician attire. And
(28:15):
and I had drapped it moments before. The details. Yeah, down to
the detail. Wow, I thinkwe're gonna call you spooky. Donald Aldman
now, well, that hasn't happenedvery much since then. It's maybe I'm
kind of happy that it hasn't,you know. I can just enjoy my
(28:37):
dreams not worry about them coming true. Now, in the book, you
really the the protagonist, for lackof a better word, of the book
is a psychiatrist. You opened upthe entire book saying, Hey, full
disclosure, this stuff has happened.I can't explain it, but you know,
I just wanted to kind of putit out there. You talk a
lot about psychiatric wards and things likethat. Do you have experience in these
(29:00):
types of environments? Yeah? Yeah, I mean I've worked in psychiatric intensive
outpatient clinics. In the story,it's a residential unit, and I've been
in several residential units, and actuallyhad somebody who works in a residential unit
rate through and make sure it wasaccurate in all, in all aspects to
(29:22):
what it's really like in there,what it looks like in there. But
I have had, you know,as a psychotherapist, been in those units.
So it's I wanted to bring peopleinto that world too, because I
think it's a world a lot ofpeople maybe wonder about or haven't really experienced
(29:42):
and and the psychiatrist. You know, he's kind of a cynical character.
He's seen it all and he's lost. He's had a great loss. I
don't want to give anything away inthe book, but he's had a great
loss in his life. And theinteresting thing is he can't heal himself,
right, but here he is tryingto work and heal others. And through
(30:03):
this journey that he takes, sheactually is able to transform how he feels
about the loss in his life.And the relationship with him and his wife
is a very key part of thebook as well. It's about, you
know, you know, a lossthat affects two people. Everybody heals in
a different way from a profound loss, so you know, that's also a
(30:26):
part of the book. But he'sinvited to take this journey and he made
some strange the strange traveler character andher dog who's a sentient canine, and
they bring themselves into his life inways he can't imagine. I am so
in speaking my language, I lovethese kinds of stories, Zoo. So
(30:48):
you're talking about a spiritual weakening typeof story that takes place in a psychiatric
ward. That is fascinating which bringsup my next question. There's a lot
of people that talk about schizophrenia andthings like that as maybe it's not a
mental illness, maybe they're just perceivingother world that we're not privy to.
(31:11):
What are your thoughts on that,Well, you know, there can be
I think that there can't be asmall number of cases maybe where somebody's having
a spiritual awakening experience that can maybemimic what schizophrenia is, and but in
(31:32):
those cases that would not be persistent. So somebody might have an awakening experience
in some way, a spiritual initiationat a time of great to rest in
their life. In fact, Iexperienced that actually in my twenties when I
was experiencing a major depressive disorder myselfand had some experiences out of body experiences
(31:57):
that I didn't understand at the time, but that I thought, who yeah,
and you know, it was almostlike a release. Felt was that
it gave me a sense of relief. I wasn't focused on it or obsessed
with it. It didn't affect myability to function, but it said,
hey, there's more to youth thanjust this physical world. And it made
(32:22):
me and it gave me a senseof hope actually or as schizophrenia is,
uh, you know, something's happening. The brain work or hallucinations and delusions
become so powerful that people can't getbeyond them, and they could become persistent
and they can actually hinder someone's abilityto function in this world. So then
(32:47):
is when you would want, ofcourse, medication. There are whole new
ways now, you know, ofof working with schizophrenia. If you get
somebody very early and you you know, in the first a couple of years
to two to five years when they'refirst getting these symptoms and work with them,
you can have good success. Butoften it becomes a persistent problem,
(33:12):
and medication can help really tamp downon those elucidations quite a bit and help
people function more. So it butI think in a very very small number
of cases it can maybe appear tomimic schizophrenia. Now, when I was
experiencing that, I did not sharethat with my with the person who was
(33:35):
treating me for depression at the time, and it's probably a good thing I
didn't because it was temporary and itdidn't leave me feeling bad in any way.
Right, So I think there's youknow, kind of a difference.
I'm not telling people to not toshare with someone if they're experiencing, you
(33:57):
know, symptoms, but you haveto you know, ask, you know,
am I able to function in thisworld? And that's the important thing.
Sure, And that is really greatinformation because time after time when we're
speaking to different guests and they talkabout their spiritual weak and the kind of
one thing they all say is Ifelt like I was going crazy, you
know, I was hearing these voicesor I was saying things that I wouldn't
(34:21):
normally say. Or but now withyou saying more, it's like if it's
prohibiting you from living a normal life, that's a different thing. That's good
to know. Yeah, I mean, if voices are persistent and they're telling
you to do things that are nothelpful things, there's a problem there and
that needs to be treated, youknow. But it's just spiritual awakenings or
(34:46):
different kinds of spiritual experiences can happen, and they can happen when we're awake,
you know. But again the ideais how are we able to you
know, keep moving forward in ourlives. And if they're stopping us,
if they're creating fear, or they'recreating paranoia, then that's not normal.
(35:09):
Well, in your book, stayingon the mental health topic. In your
book, you seem to say thatthere are other ways of healing mental illness
other than the traditional ways. Canyou recommend them? Yeah? I think
you know, one of the onesthat I've been that I work with is
mindfulness as a tool for helping people. Mindfulness has come into the field of
(35:32):
mental health and is helping a lotof people heal from depression and anxiety and
actually reducing those symptoms as much asas in some cases medication. Now,
I'm not saying it's a substitute.I think everybody's different and some people need
medications. People can use a combinationof the two. Right, different kinds
(35:59):
of coping skills, coping tools thatbe many, many different kinds of those.
Uh. I think what's important is, you know, when you're when
you're when you're asking for help,is that you meet with somebody who you
have a rapport with. Uh.And that connection with the healer or the
therapist is really important. Uh.You know, it's been shown that that
(36:21):
connection is more important even than themodality you're using. You know, there's
a there's a sex, there's amoment in the book when the when the
character says something that the psychiatrist sayssomething to his patient and he blurts out
something that he doesn't mean to andand uh, you know, he apologizes
in that moment for it, andthey end up having a moment together where
(36:44):
they laugh, you know, andthat is very healing. And you know,
it's funny. I've hand those momentswith clients, those moments where something
happens, uh, off the walland you start laughing at it together,
and that's a very healing moment.And you can't replicate that. You know.
Sometimes therapy comes in, you know, really uncertain, unexpected ways,
(37:07):
unexpected ways. And that's also anothergood key point, you know, just
because you might not have that connectionwith with the therapist. So maybe trying
to the therapist, but don't giveup on therapy, right, that's a
good point and it works, soI'm not going back. Yeah, And
you know, I'm interesting thing abouttherapy is, you know, I've had
(37:28):
I'm going I've had people come tome and they'll say, well, Donald,
tell me what I should do here. You know, you must know
you're you know, you're kind ofexperience in this and I'll say, well,
no, I can't tell you.If I tell you what to do
and it doesn't work out, whoare you going to blame me or or
find favor please? Yeah? Orif it does work out and you're gonna
(37:52):
think, well, us really wasn'tmy idea, So you know, you
really it's about just trying to helpif someone find their own wisdom, find
their own path, their own journey, and you know that I think is
wonderful where I think we're all hereon a journey in a way, and
(38:12):
that's really what trawlers about, ishow do we open up and explore the
different pathways that are available to usto see things in new ways? Right?
Absolutely getting back to your book quicklybecause we're running out of time,
but I want to make sure thatwe really focus on it for a second.
(38:32):
Who did you write this book for? Who should go out there and
get it right now? You know, anybody? I think this book is
for anybody who wants to explore deepermeaning for themselves, anybody who wants to
overcome grief, anybody who wants tofind you know, what's stopping them,
(38:53):
what's blocking them, and how theycan connect with the world, with nature,
with the with the magical parts ofthemselves that are maybe hidden from view,
and you know, overcome fear.That's also what this book is about.
If you're being blocked by your fearof the unknown, you're fear to
(39:14):
do something, to be brave andtake a chance, and I think this
book is for you. Well,I'm a sucker for Way to Piece,
for Warriors, lesson Prophecy, thesetypes of books that tell a story and
narrative, but that contain great messagesinside of it. I your book is
(39:34):
right up my alley. You definitelyhave another sale on your hands now as
soon as we got conversation, becauseit sounds like it's a great book.
Is there anything else that you thinkpeople need to know about you or the
book before that they move forward withgetting it? Sure? Well, you
know you can find out more aboutme, and I've written a lot of
different books and a lot of them. Some of them are being used in
treatment centers. A lot of cliniciansuse them. You can find out more
(39:58):
at Mike full Practices dot com.It's m i Nbful Practices dot com and
that's my website. You can joinme on the Psychology Today website. I
do the Mindful Practical Mindfulness blog.And also I have a reflector like a
meditation group on Facebook and it's Facebookdot com Forward slash mnd full Mindful without
(40:27):
the Eye practices, so you canfind me. Find me there, wonderful.
We're going to add all those linksdirectly to our show notes, so
if you'd like to access any ofthose, don't need to get a pen.
You can go right to skeptic menavisitiondot com right now, go to
his episode page. You'll see allthose links laid in there directly for you.
Makes it super easy and convenient.Donald, this has been absolutely wonderful,
(40:52):
fascinating, exciting all the same time. I can't thank you enough for
coming and sharing of your expertise withus. Well, thank you so much.
I know if I was able toprove to you anything, but I
tried, you did. I mean, you gave me a more that's the
right world, not concise way ofthinking about it, but more of a
practical way of thinking about things andputting two and two together. For me,
(41:13):
talking about your release of ash projectionis what gave you that proof of
the non material world. It justit gives me such perfect validation because everyone
who listens to the show, knowsthat that's the one astral projection. That's
the thing. That's what I needto know for sure. This stuff exists,
so I know it. I knowit works, so I'm going to
continue on this path. Well,thanks again, it was joy being both
(41:37):
of you. It was our pleasurecompletely. Thank you so much. Today's
listener feedback corner comes from Tim Varusand Tim, I'm so sorry I mispronounced
your name. It's spelled v Or u Z. I'm not really hundred
percent sure how to say that,but he sent us a message directly through
our website, and he was askingus whether or not we've actually experienced the
(42:00):
Indian palmlely freading modality. Tim,we've not yet experienced it ourselves, though
we are fascinated by it and dodefinitely want to try it, but we've
not had a chance to do soyet. But if and when we do,
we will be sure to share withyou what our experience was. Now.
He goes on to say, Ireally enjoy your show and have listened
(42:22):
to almost every show. I hopeyou do spin this off into a TV
show, but please keep up withthe podcasts as a way to screen your
TV possibilities and keep us informed whilewe drive Well him not to worry,
we are not going anywhere. Thispodcast is our labor of love, and
when we do spin off to atelevision show, this audio podcast is still
(42:44):
going to be around because we candive a lot deeper into the topics on
this show than we could on TV. Tim thinks again for sending us this
note. Really appreciate it, andif you would like to hear your message
on the air, please feel freeto go to Skeptic Metaphysician dot com.
You can leave us a voicemail ora review, or send us an email
directly from the site. We'd loveto hear from you, and you never
(43:07):
know, you might just hear yourwords here on the air in a future
episode. Well, thanks for comingalong on this journey discovery with us.
We'd love to continue our conversation withyou on our website at Skeptic Metaphysician dot
com or on Facebook and Instagram undera Skeptic Metaphysician podcast. If you know
(43:28):
someone who would benefit from hearing themessages we're sharing on the show, do
them and us a favor and sharethe show with them. It will help
get the word out about us andit may just change someone's life for the
better. And if you're listening tothis on the radio and you missed something,
not to worry. All of ourshows, including this one, can
be found at Skeptic metaphysician dot com. We can also watch the videos or
(43:51):
even send us an email or voicemaildirectly from the site. We absolutely love
feedback and would appreciate hearing from you. I hope you've enjoyed this episode much
as we have. That's all fornow. We'll see you on the next
episode of the Skeptic Metaphysicians. Untilthen, take care,
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