A Mindful Metaphysical Odyssey into Spiritual Awakening & Consciousness

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Karen.

Speaker 2 (00:01):
Yes, Will.

Speaker 3 (00:02):
This show was originally created in an effort to find
if there really was more to us than just this
three dimensional bodies we inhabit, and for the most part
we've been exploring all the different modalities that come along
with the potential of proving that the spiritual world actually exists. Well,
on this week's show, we're blessed to welcome someone who
has dedicated his life to doing just that, providing proof

(00:27):
of that world just outside our three D perception. Yes, proof, Well,
let's see, because he's written a book that dives really
deep into this topic. Well, he's written many books, but
we're going to talk about one particular. We're talking about Travelers,
a book that takes readers on a spiritual quest that
shifts consciousness.

Speaker 1 (00:45):
Oh me too.

Speaker 3 (00:47):
Welcome to the Skeptic Beta Posicians. My name is Will,
and unlike bolderin Scully, to believe, so we've embarked in
a journey of discovery.

Speaker 4 (01:01):
Welcome to Skeptic Politicians Classic. You are listening to the
classic skeptic metaphysicians. Welcome to our version of a walkdown
Memory Lane as we present classics from the Skeptic Metahysician

(01:23):
Library warts and all. Today's stories from the Living Gida
by Swami Sachi Nanda. Once a fellow went into the

(01:45):
jungle and became very tired. He found a beautiful tree
and sat beneath it, but the ground was thorny. He
couldn't lie down anywhere.

Speaker 3 (01:54):
Oh, how nice it would be if I had a
small cot. The minute he thought of it, he found
himself sitting on a cot.

Speaker 1 (02:02):
Oh boy, I have a cot, so he lay down.

Speaker 3 (02:06):
Well, this is very comfortable, but I'm also hungry. I
could use something to eat, maybe a banana. Well, immediately
a bunch of bananas appeared.

Speaker 1 (02:16):
What's this?

Speaker 3 (02:17):
He couldn't believe his eyes. It seems that whatever I
want I can get here. Well, then how about some
gourmet cooking. Immediately, plates filled with delicacies, delicious dishes, putting desserts.
They all appeared right in front of him. Well, he
ate sumptuously, and then thought it would be nice if

(02:40):
there was someone to massage my feet to put me
to sleep. Even as he thought it, there was already
a beautiful angel like person there massaging his feet. Understandably,
he became very excited. Oh, it looks like whatever I'm thinking,
I'm getting. Now I have a com bed, a good

(03:01):
sumptuous meal, and somebody to massage my feet. Oh but
what if will I'm getting the massaged? I fall asleep
and suddenly a tiger comes from the jungle.

Speaker 1 (03:12):
What's gonna happen?

Speaker 3 (03:12):
Then? Well, immediately he heard the roar and a tiger
appeared and devoured him. Well, what do you do with
a person like that? Yeah, he was under a boon
giving tree. Whatever he wanted he got. Unfortunately, sometimes people
are like that, they can get everything they want that
they don't know what to ask for. Hi, I'm will

(03:38):
and I'm caring, And today's main topic has went very
dear to my heart. Donald Altman is a psychotherapist, a
former Buddhist monk, an international mindfulness expert, and an award
winning author of over twenty books translated worldwide.

Speaker 1 (03:54):
Now.

Speaker 3 (03:54):
He's been featured as an expert in The Mindfulness Movie.
He's been profiled in the Living Spiritual Teachers Project, and
currently writes Psychology Today's Practical Mindfulness blog. His best selling
The Mindfulness Toolbox won two national Publishing awards, and his
books Clearing Emotional Clutter and The Mindfulness Code We're both

(04:14):
chosen as one of the best spiritual books of the
year by Spirituality and Practice. And if that wasn't enough,
his newest book, Travelers. It's a mystical and spiritual odyssey
about a grieving psychiatrist who meets a mysterious traveler in
a story of healing.

Speaker 1 (04:31):
Hope, and renewal.

Speaker 3 (04:32):
I could not be more thrilled to welcome Donald alt
in to the show.

Speaker 1 (04:35):
Welcome Donald, Hi Will and I care. It's great to
be here with you today.

Speaker 3 (04:39):
I definitely want to dive really deeply into your book.
But before we do that, it's not often that we
get the chance to talk to one of the foremost
experts on the topic of mindfulness. So we'd be remiss
if we didn't ask the obvious question, what's the difference
between mindfulness and meditation or is there even a difference?

Speaker 1 (04:59):
Well, there is a difference, and that's a good question.
Meditation is really about when you're focusing on something. It
could be you're focusing on the breath, focusing on an object,
or you're saying a mantra, but you're bringing your concentrated
energy into one thing. We're Mindfulness is really more about
being aware of what's happening. Moment by moment whatever is

(05:20):
entering your set's fields and paying attention to that, So
noticing your thoughts in the moment, noticing as I take
this breath, noticing the colors on the screen as I'm
talking to you. So it's really all of that as
your moment by moment going through your day. It's a
very different experience. It's kind of a meditation. It's a
meditation on the moment, you might say, rather than any

(05:44):
one particular thing, which is more meditation.

Speaker 2 (05:47):
So it's like being present on steroids.

Speaker 1 (05:49):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, very much on steroids. Yeah. I think
that's a good way to describe it. And you might
think of it as, you know, being a little scary
for some people, because you know, we're so distractable all
the time, are we. You know, we're looking at screens
all the time. Everything's trying to grab our attention. But

(06:10):
mindfulness also brings to the idea of intentionality that I
can harness my attention and I can use it the
way I want to so for my benefit and for
the benefit of other.

Speaker 3 (06:21):
Now Kieren and I have started a meditation practice. I've
started a little bit longer than Kiaran. It not to
rub anything into any wounds.

Speaker 2 (06:29):
But meditator.

Speaker 3 (06:30):
And yet and yet you are so much better at
it than I am, right right off the bat. But
a lot of the meditations that we run into have
a lot of mindfulness in it, right, The Calm app
and the Headspace, they all do mindfulness meditations. So when
we talk about meditations, we're talking that means there's a
whole gambit of types of meditation, but just as much

(06:53):
there's a whole gambit of types of mindfulness practices, right,
because we're you're the vice president of the Mindfulness Eating Yeah,
actually the.

Speaker 1 (07:00):
Center for Mindful Eating, And I was vice president, and
I you know, and I think one of the things
that led me in the mindfulness actually was I was
a mindless eater and I used I used food and
I was, yeah, I you know, I never met a
cookie I didn't like. And if I was, you know,
emotional about something I couldn't deal with something, I would

(07:24):
could eat food as a way to you know, kind
of medicate away my difficult emotions. I was an emotional
eater and probably you know, most of us have done
that at some point or another. And I when I
went into the monastery, I actually spent time as a
Buddhist monk, and one of the things that really interested
me was how I might be able to learn how

(07:48):
to eat differently or understand my emotional eating. And one
of the things that happened is very funny. So I
went in. I went through this incredible two to three
hour initiation into the very ancient practice, and then I
got back. They showed myself and two other novice bunks
a room. We said you're going to be staying here.

(08:08):
There were three beds on the floor. I just sat
on one of those mattresses, and suddenly I had buyer's remorse.
You know, Oh my god, what was I think? And
right in that moment, I really couldn't used some food
to distract me or make me feel better. But I
had taken a vow not to eat after twelve noon.

(08:28):
Now the months would get up very early in the morning.
We would meditate by around six. I get up around
three thirty in the morning. You meditating doing chanting. At
around six o'clock, you'd have a thirty minute breakfast, and
then from eleven to twelve you'd have lunch, but you
wouldn't eat after that. And I really that was my
greatest fear was could I do this? I didn't know.

(08:51):
But anyway, here I am. I get in the monastery,
I'm sitting on that futon, thinking how I needed something
to help comfort me some you know, some food would
have been nice. And right then I looked to my
left and there was a bookshelf there, and on this
bookshelf I could not leave my eyes will and Kern
was a giant Cadbury's chocolate bar. And my first thought, yeah,

(09:15):
I saw that. My first thought was I'll never forget it.
Somebody set me up. But you know, like, oh yeah,
they knew I was going to go to that, to
that food down, They knew that I was gonna well,
they put this big chocolate bar. I mean, nobody knew
I had this eating issue. But when I saw that
chocolate bar, my mind went into a war. We've all

(09:36):
been there, you know. One side of me was I
want that chocolate bar. That'll make me feel better. The
other side was, no, you took this vow. You know
you can't eat after twelve noon, you you know, you
can't eat the chocolate bar. And there was this war
going back and on. You know, it was really amazing.
And then after I think it must have been an
hour of hearing this war. Suddenly it was like I

(09:57):
got jolted and I was watching these two voices, and
it occurred to me, right then there, well, I you know,
who says I have to do one or the other.
I can do both. I can crave the chocolate bar,
and yet I can still follow my vow right. And
it was showing, you know, I learned the important liss
in that moment about how we can be a provide ourselves.

(10:20):
We could be a container for all that exists within us.
The challenge is the good things, the bad thing we
can we can hold it all and find wholeness actually
in doing that instead of getting reactive. So it was
a powerful lesson for me and I and I found
out that nobody set me up. Nobody put the chocolate
bar on that shelf to get me, so to speak.

(10:44):
But I you know, people would donate things to the monks,
all different kinds of things, and they would put them
in different places throughout the monastery, so it wasn't nobody
was personally trying to to, you know, catch me with
that chocolate bar.

Speaker 3 (11:00):
You're well, you definitely are a kindred spirit. I'll tell
you that of mine.

Speaker 2 (11:04):
So I have two questions. Yeah, when did you go
to bed? You can't eat after twelve Like could you
go to bed at one because you're getting up at three?

Speaker 1 (11:13):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (11:13):
Yes, when was bedtime?

Speaker 1 (11:16):
Well, we were in the monastery, you know, we would meditate,
do all different kinds of meditation throughout the entire day,
and I think we, uh, probably about nine or ten
go to bed. But then you get up at like PM, yeah,
nine or ten at night. Wow, you get up at
three three thirty in the morning and start doing your ear.

Speaker 3 (11:34):
Did you wake up ravenous?

Speaker 1 (11:37):
You know? It was a funny thing. This is a
really amazing thing to me, was that, you know, here
I was. I didn't believe that I would be able
to do this, uh, not eating after twelve noon. In fact,
the day before I went to the monaster, I went
and I had this huge meal at this buffet that
I knew about. It was going to be with my
last meal, right, but.

Speaker 2 (11:58):
I would do the same thing.

Speaker 1 (12:00):
What I discovered was that by using my concentrated energy
like I was and focus in my mind, that I
was not hungry after twelve noon. It kind of shocked me.
You know, you could have a tea or something to
drink in the afternoon, a juice or tea, that's all
I would have. But I did not have the kind

(12:21):
of hunger that I thought it would have. It was
really kind of amazing, you know. I think it was
the the you know, the quality of focusing your mind
paying attention like that that I didn't have to need
all these other distractions.

Speaker 3 (12:36):
I didn't need food to you know, to medicate away anything.
It's amazing that the power of the mind right to
get you beyond certain limitations that you put on yourself. Really,
for the most part, it's really incredible.

Speaker 1 (12:52):
I mean, yeah, some of the some of the you know,
Tibetan monks have a thing called tumo, which is a
practice of heating the body up. And now Tibet is
a very harsh climate, really cold, but they're able to
go out and actually melt the snow around their body
and bring their body temperature off. And actually it's really

(13:15):
interesting if you can raise the temperature in your extremities
like your hands, your fingertips, and your and your toes,
that will actually lower the stress in your body. And
I've had people in in therapy sessions where it would
have them put a little finger thermometer on the tip
of their finger, and it would teach them how to

(13:36):
focus on bringing heat to their extremities. And in a
matter of minutes, five or ten minutes, they can lower
the temperature in their fingers or raise the temperature in
their fingers rather about five or ten degrees, just in
a matter of minutes. That's the power. The power of
the mind is amazing, not.

Speaker 2 (13:53):
Unlike the power of menopause. Because I have anch hal
flashing women like it probably melt some snow themselves. I
want to know what brought you to that monastery, What
made you decide you wanted to go and enter this monastery.

Speaker 1 (14:10):
You know what brings us to do most things that
you know that are are going to be challenging or difficult,
is probably that the pain of not doing that is
even worse. And I was suffering a lot of the
time in my life. They're in repetitive, destructive patterns, and
I wanted to know, you know, how can I understand

(14:32):
this in a deeper way. And that's why I went
in the monastery. I met a monk, and it was
funny at the time, somebody said, oh, there was a
monk I think I'd like you to meet. And maybe
that's a cautionary tale for people, because you meet this
monk and the next thing you know, you're they're shaving
your hair and they're going in the monastery. But but

(14:52):
for me the self, make that note right, what I learned.
You know, you don't have to go in the monastery,
but you do have to be willing I think, to
look within and and you know, look at the dark
places in ourselves, right, look at the suffering that we have.
Look at how uh you know, and everybody suffered suffered

(15:13):
in some way. You like to say, if you have
a human if you're in a human body, if you
have a human mind, you're going to experience loss, You're
gonna experience aging, different things. You know, how do we
uh deal with that in a way that is compassionate,
kind to ourselves and to others. So there was tremendous
lessons to learn it. I mean funny, when I met
this monk, what drew me to him was this incredible,

(15:37):
palpable sense of compassion and kindness that he had about him.
That I grew up in Chicago and have to tell you,
I didn't find people like that monk hanging around on
the street corners of Chicago. They just weren't there. But
I wanted to know how it would Yeah, I wish
I had, Yeah, but I wanted to know how did

(15:58):
he become like that? And is it possible for any
of us to attain a different kind of you know,
profoundly different way of thinking and being and what you know,
It's what I discovered when I got to meet him
in the monastery, because he was the head of the

(16:18):
he was like the app and or they called the
sea do. The monastery was a Teavada Buddhist monastery. They
were all Burmese monks actually, and he was a Burmese monk,
and but he fortunately he spoke English well, but he
he what he loved, Yeah, that was a that was
a lucky thing. What he loved to do was to

(16:40):
teach the loving kindness meditation. That was and and that
is I think how he profoundly transformed himself within by
doing that and that practice.

Speaker 2 (16:51):
I like that loving kindness meditation. Everybody should do that,
especially these days, my goodness, we need it.

Speaker 1 (16:57):
Oh gosh.

Speaker 3 (16:58):
Yeah, Well, we've we've got a lot to talk about
before we get into the meat of the topic. I
think we probably should take a break so that we
don't interrupt the flow of our conversation. So we'll take
a quick break right now. But when we come back,
we're going to dive into the book Travelers, and specifically,

(17:18):
I want to talk about the spiritual quest that is
involved in this book. You mentioned that there's more to
the material world than we can normally feel or experience ourselves,
and I really want to talk to you about quantum consciousness, angels,
even maybe by location, things like that. All of that
ran a whole lot more when we come back right
after this Welcome back to the skeptic metaphysicians. We are

(17:49):
talking to Donald Altman, who is a former Buddhist monk
and a prolific author of over twenty books that have
been translated into different languages across the world. Newest book, Travelers,
is a spiritual journey, and it is interesting because this
is not your typical spiritual awakening book. This is actually

(18:10):
a story that's kind of wrapped into a spiritual exploration.
What motivated you'd write this book? What's the what's the
story behind it?

Speaker 1 (18:19):
Well, you know, it's funny. I think the story wrote
me actually to tell you the truth. Uh, and and
the characters. I mean, I I didn't really know where
this was going to go. It's you know, I had
this idea for a book about, you know, why are
we here when we you know, about the spiritual journey?
And I actually try to write it as a nonfiction book,

(18:41):
and it would refuse to be a nonfiction book. And
I thought, you know what, I've got to bring this
alive in another way, and so I decided to do
it as a novel. And it's not I have to
say though, it's not a you know, if you want
a fluffy greezy read this summer, you know, this is
not that book. But if you want, you know, it's

(19:03):
really it's more of an invitation into the unknown and into
the dark place in our souls, in the dark place
in our lives and the things that we have to face,
whether it's a mental illness or a loss, you know,
and how do we get through that as a family.
There's some you know, and I think that is what
drives us into the spiritual quest. You know, you talked

(19:24):
about you know, the material world and uh, you know,
I think we're even the mental health field. I think
is very steeped in a mechanical view view of things.
So take a pill, you know, uh, you know it's
these kind of simple ways of looking at things when
actually we're very complex. I mean, how can you replace

(19:46):
an emotion? Right? I mean I don't know, So I
you know, I wanted to uh have an invitation for
people to step into the unknown here through this book
and to challenge the reader actually and A taped them
with some places maybe they're you know, not really comfortable

(20:06):
being which is that uh, that non ordinary reality, that
that place where uh, you know, transformation can happen, where
miracles can happen, or the unseen uh becomes known. And
I think we're all capable of doing that.

Speaker 2 (20:24):
So you said that you're exploring the dark places we
all have. So by dark is it always is it
always grief or something negative? Or can it be just
something that we don't know about so it gives us
that fear and makes it feel dark.

Speaker 1 (20:39):
Yeah, it could be our own fears of something. It
could be our own shadow. It could be our blind spot,
thing that we don't are you know, are not really
willing to look at in ourselves. It could be something
we share with another it could be, Uh, it could
be dealing with that difficult situation at the office or

(21:00):
that that, or you know, with not having things go
your way in life. I mean, it's so many different
things we have to face. It's not just grief. Loss
comes in many different packages and shapes and forms, doesn't it. So,
But whatever it is, it I think if we can

(21:20):
open up, open ourselves up at a willingness to enter
the unknown, right enter our own world of of you know,
even our dreams. Think about how amazing our dreams are.
Our dreams take us out of the ordinary reality, and

(21:41):
there may be something to our dreams that. You know,
a lot of people have solved problems creatively by just
dreaming people. Some people have written books in their dreams.
It's pretty amazing how we can tap into a different
world just in that way. But you know, you guys
are doing meditation. That's another wonderful way to connect with

(22:02):
the non ordinary world.

Speaker 3 (22:04):
And you are touching on some points that I really
wanted to make sure we talked about because in your
book you do talk about certain key phrases that in
the metaphysical and spiritual space, where if you mentioned these topics,
you automatically get someone's attention, things like quantum consciousness and
by location, things like that. And in your story you

(22:25):
say that there's a lot more to this material world
than we can normally proceed, right, but you say you
have proofs of that, right. Well, here I'll give you
an example. This really happened.

Speaker 1 (22:35):
You know. I had written the book, and several months
after I'd written the book and the publisher had it,
I was out hiking at a wilderness area I live
in the outside of Portland, and this is an incredible
wilderness area. And this area is also mentioned in the book.
And in the book, the character is out in this
area doing a spiritual quest and ye, and it's a

(22:55):
dangerous area and he has an accident and he gets
injured in some different ways and a part of the
park that I actually at the time had I'd been
to the southern part of the park, but never the
north part of the park, and I described the part
of the park that I didn't really know, but I
described it here. I was, in reality, several months later,

(23:16):
out psyching in that part of the park and I
fell and had an sustained injuries that were the same
ones that my character had sustained in the book. And
then fortunately my wife was there and she helped me
out with the character didn't have that luxury. And as

(23:39):
I was going out of this north end of the park,
I started looking around, I'm like, oh my god. I
described this in the book what I was in very
precise detail in the book, and I had never been there,
so you know, that's astounding. So it was just an
example of me. When it happened, I was kind of shocked,

(24:02):
and maybe that was helpful to alleviate some of the
pain I was in. But it was kind of like,
here across time and space, something had happened there that was,
you know, what we call maybe a synchronicity, something that
was unexplainable, right, and yet two events linked together that

(24:26):
seemed non local, right, but they were connected. And so
it was almost like an affirmation of me what I
was trying to say in the book.

Speaker 2 (24:34):
And it's almost like it sounds almost like a chicken
in the egg thing, like did you was this a
prophetic thing when you were writing it or did you
manifest it when you were writing it?

Speaker 1 (24:43):
That's an interesting question, book wrote him. Well, that's yeah, yeah,
I mean that's a really good question. You know, I
heard about how the horror writer Stephen King had written
about that killer car I think it was called Christaine,
and then he almost got killed by a car some

(25:07):
years later. But again, I mean, who you know, what
is the chicken in the egg? I don't know, and
I'm not sure if it Yeah, I don't know which
came first. But it really shows that you know, when
these when these anomalies happened in our lives, these things
that we often think are coincidences, maybe are not coincidence.

(25:29):
I mean, Einstein didn't believe that any of these things
happened are coincidences. He felt that all things were somehow
uh connected and determined. He he didn't understand the quantum
world he called it. He called it spooky action at
a distance or whatever it was, because he could not understand, well,

(25:51):
how does this really happen?

Speaker 3 (25:53):
Makes you think twice about writing certain things, doesn't it
just be a historian?

Speaker 1 (26:00):
I mean, I've had some other experience of things that
happened moments after I thought of them. One time, and
as many years ago, I was in my twenties and
I had a dream that I and at that period
of my life, I was trying some acting some different things.
And I had this dream that this guy was offering

(26:25):
me a job to work with this woman who I
had met, and we'd be and be at a at
a trade show, and I'd be dressed up in a
lab suit and she'd be dressed so and so, and
you know, we'd be performing at this show. And so
I'm having this very vivid dream and then my phone
rings that it woke me up, and I pick up

(26:46):
the phone and it's the guy in the dream who
had offered me the job is on the phone, offering
me the job and describing, yeah, and ascribing to me
exactly what you'd be working with. See, that was the
woman in the dream. And you're gonna be lab You're
gonna be like dressed up in lab technician attire. And

(27:08):
and I had drepped it moments before.

Speaker 2 (27:11):
Down to the details.

Speaker 1 (27:13):
Yeah, down to the detail.

Speaker 3 (27:15):
Wow, I think we're going to call you spooky Donald Altman.

Speaker 1 (27:18):
Now, well, that hasn't happened very much since then. Maybe
I'm kind of happy that it hasn't. You know, you
can I can just enjoy my dream to not worry
about them coming true.

Speaker 3 (27:32):
Now in the book, you really the the protagonist for
lack of a better word, of the book is a
psychiatrist that you open up the entire book saying, Hey,
full disclosure, this stuff has happened. I can't explain it,
but you know, I just want to kind of put
it out there. You talk a lot about psychiatric wards
and things like that. Do you have experience in these

(27:54):
types of environments?

Speaker 1 (27:56):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I've worked in psychiatric intensive patient clinics.
In the story, it's a residential unit, and I've been
in several residential units and actually had somebody who works
in a residential unit read through and make sure was
accurate and all in all aspects as to what it's
really like in there, what it looks like in there.

(28:19):
And but I have had, you know, as a psychotherapist,
been in those units. So it's uh. I wanted to
bring people into that world too, because I think it's
a world a lot of people maybe wonder about or
haven't really experienced. And uh. And the psychiatrist, you know,

(28:40):
he's kind of a cynical character. He's seen it all
and he's lost. He's had a great loss. I don't
want to give anything away in the book, but he's
had a great loss in his life. And the interesting
thing is he can't heal himself, right, but here he
is trying to work and heal others, and through this
journey that he takes, he actually is able to transform

(29:02):
how he feels about the loss in his life. And
the relationship with him and his wife is a very
key part of the book as well. It's about, you know,
you know, a loss that affects two people. Everybody heals
in a different way from a profound laws, so you know,
that's also part of the book. But he's invited to
take this journey and he makes some strange this strange

(29:25):
traveler character and her dog who's a sentient canine, and
they bring themselves into his life in ways he can't imagine.

Speaker 3 (29:35):
I am so in speaking my language. I love these
kinds of stories. So you're talking about a spiritual awakening
type of story that takes place in a psychiatric ward.
That is fascinating, which brings up my next question. There's
a lot of people that talk about schizophrenia and things

(29:57):
like that as maybe it's not a mental illness. Maybe
they're just perceiving other world that we're not privy to.
What are your thoughts on that.

Speaker 1 (30:07):
Well, you know, there can be I think that there
there there can't be a small number of cases maybe
where somebody is having a spiritual awakening experience that can
maybe mimic what schizophrenia is, and but in those cases
that would not be persistent. So somebody might have an

(30:29):
awakening experience in some way, a spiritual initiation at a
time of great duress in their life. In fact, I
experienced that actually in my twenties when I was experiencing
a major depressive disorder myself and had some experiences out

(30:49):
of body experiences that I didn't understand at the time,
but that I thought good gent. Yeah, you know, it
was almost like a release. Fel was that it gave
me a set to relief. I wasn't focused on it
or obsessed with it. It didn't affect my ability to function,
but it said, hey, there's more to the youth than

(31:12):
just this physical world. And it made me and it
gave me a sense of hope. Actually, or or as
schizophrenia is really, you know, something's happening in the brain
where hallucinations and delusions become so powerful that people can't
get beyond them, and they could become persistent and they

(31:34):
can actually hinder someone's ability to function in this world.
So then is when you would want a course medication.
And there are a whole new ways now, you know,
of working with schizophrenia. If you get somebody very early
and you you know, in the first couple of years

(31:55):
to two to five years when they're first getting these
symptoms and work with them, you can have with success.
But often it becomes a persistent problem, and medication can
help really tamp down on those hallucinations quite a bit
and help people function more so. But I think in
a very very small number of cases it can maybe

(32:20):
a periodimmic schizophrenia. Now, when I was experiencing that, I
did not share that with my uh with the person
who was treating me for depression at the time, and
it's probably a good thing I didn't because it was
temporary and it didn't leave me feeling bad in any way, right,
So I think there's you know, kind of a difference.

(32:44):
I'm not telling people not to share with someone if
they're experiencing, you know, symptoms, but you have to you know, ask,
you know, am I able to function in this world?
And that's the important.

Speaker 2 (32:59):
Thing, sure, And that is really great information because time
after time when we're speaking to different guests and they
talk about their spiritual the kind of one thing I'll
say is I felt like I was going crazy, you know,
I was hearing these voices, or I was saying things
that I wouldn't normally say, or but now with you
saying more, it's like, if it's prohibiting you from living

(33:20):
a normal life, that the difference. That's so good to know.

Speaker 1 (33:25):
Yeah, I mean, if voices are persistent and they're telling
you to do things that are not helpful things, there's
a problem there and that needs to be treated, you know.
But it's a spiritual awakenings or different kinds of spiritual
experiences can happen, and they can happen when we're awake,

(33:47):
you know. But again the idea is, how are we
able to, you know, keep moving forward in our lives.
And if they're stopping us, if they're creating fear, if
they're creating pair annoy you, and then that's not normal.

Speaker 3 (34:03):
Well, in your book, staying on the mental health topic,
in your book, you seem to say that there are
other ways of healing mental illness other than the traditional ways.

Speaker 1 (34:14):
Can you recommend some Yeah, I think you know, one
of the ones that I've that I work with is
mindfulness as a tool for helping people. Mindfulness has come
into the feel of mental health and is helping a
lot of people heal from depression and anxiety and actually

(34:35):
reducing those symptoms as much as as in some cases medication. Now,
I'm not saying it's a substitute. I think everybody's different
and some people need medications, can use a combination of
the two. Right, Different kinds of coping skills, coping tools
be many, many different kinds of those. I think what's

(34:58):
important is, you know, when you're when you're when you're
asking for help, is that you meet with somebody who
you have poor with. Uh, And that connection with the
healer or the therapist is really important. You know, It's
been shown that that connection is more important even than
the modality you're using. No, there's a there's a sex

(35:21):
there's a moment in the book when the when the
character says something that the psychiatrist says something to his
patient and he blurts out something that he doesn't mean
to and and uh, you know, he apologizes in that
moment for it, and they end up having a moment
together where they laugh, you know, and and that is
very healing. And you know it's funny. I've had those

(35:43):
moments with clients, those moments where something happens, uh off
the wall and you start laughing at it together, and
that's a very healing moment. I mean, you can't replicate that.
As you know, sometimes therapy comes an un you know,
really uncertain unexpected way expected ways.

Speaker 2 (36:03):
And that's also another good key point, you know, just
because you might not have that connection with with the therapist.
So maybe trying to the therapist, but don't give up
on therapy, right, because that's a good point. I'm not
going back.

Speaker 1 (36:17):
Yeah, And you know, interesting thing about therapy is, you
know I've had I've gone I've had people come to
me and they'll say, well, Donald, tell me what I
should do here. You know, you must know you're you know,
you're kind of experiencing this. And I'll say, well, no,
I can't tell you. If I tell you what to
do and it doesn't work out, who were you going
to blame or a favorite please? Yeah? Or if it

(36:43):
does work out and you're gonna think, well, this really
wasn't my idea. So you know, I really it's about
just trying to help someone find their own wisdom, find
their own path, their own journey. And you know, they
I think is wonderful where I think we're all here

(37:03):
on a journey in a way. And that's really what
Trafler is about, is how do we, you know, open
up and explore the different pathways that are available to
us to see things in new ways.

Speaker 3 (37:18):
Right absolutely getting back to your book quickly because we're
running out of time, but I want to make sure
that we really focus on it for a second. Who
did you write this book for? Who should go out
there and get it right now?

Speaker 1 (37:31):
You know, anybody? I think this focus for anybody who
wants to explore deeper meaning for themselves, anybody who wants
to overcome grief, anybody who wants to find you know,
what's stopping them, what's blocking them, and how they can
connect the world with nature, with the with the magical

(37:56):
parts of themselves that are maybe hidden from view. And
you know, overcome fear. That's also what this book is about.
If you're being blocked by your fear of the unknown,
you're feared to do something to being brave and take
a chance. And I fike this book is for you.

Speaker 3 (38:13):
Well, I'm a sucker for Way at the Piece, for Warriors,
Lessing Prophecy, these types of books that tell a story
and narrative, but that contain great messages inside of it.
I your book is right up my alley. You definitely
have another sale on your hands now as soon as
we got conversation, because it sounds like it's a great book.

(38:34):
Is there anything else that you think people need to
know about you or the book before that they move
forward with getting it?

Speaker 1 (38:41):
Sure? Well, you know you can find out more about me,
and I've written a lot of different books, and a
lot of them. Some of them are being used in
treatment centers. A lot of clinicians use them. You can
find out more at Micphlpractices dot com. It's m I
n D f u Lpractices dot com and that's my website.
You can join me on the Psychology Today's website. I

(39:04):
do the Mindful Practical Mindfulness blog and also I have
a reflect troop like a meditation group on Facebook at
Facebook dot com, forward slash m n D full Mindful
without the Eye Practices, So you can find me find

(39:24):
me there, wonderful.

Speaker 3 (39:26):
We're going to add all of those links directly to
our show notes. So if you'd like to access any
of those, don't need to get a pen. You can
go right to skepticmanevision dot com right now, go to
his episode page.

Speaker 1 (39:37):
You'll see all those.

Speaker 3 (39:38):
Links laid in there directly for you. Makes it super
easy and convenient. Donald, this has been absolutely wonderful, fascinating
exciting all the same time. I can't thank you enough
for coming and sharing of your expertise with us.

Speaker 1 (39:51):
Well, thank you so much. I don't know if I
was able to prove to you anything, but I tried.
You did.

Speaker 2 (39:57):
I mean, you gave me a more that's the right word,
concise way of thinking about it, but more of a
practical way of thinking about things and putting two and
two together.

Speaker 3 (40:06):
For me, talking about your release of ash projection is
what gave you that proof of the non material world.
It just it gives me such perfect validation because everyone
who listens to the show knows that that's the one
astral projection.

Speaker 1 (40:19):
That's the thing.

Speaker 3 (40:20):
That's what I need to know for sure. This stuff exists,
so I know it, I know it works, so I'm
going to continue on this path.

Speaker 1 (40:28):
Well, thanks again. It was a joy being both of you.

Speaker 3 (40:32):
It was our pleasure completely.

Speaker 1 (40:34):
Thank you so much.

Speaker 3 (40:38):
Today's listener feedback corner come from Tim Vurrus and Tim,
I'm so sorry if I mispronounced your name.

Speaker 1 (40:44):
It's spelled v O r u Z.

Speaker 3 (40:45):
I'm not really hundred percent sure how to say that,
but he sent us a message directly through our website,
and he was asking us whether or not we've actually
experienced the Indian palm leaf reading modality. Tim, we've not
yet experienced it our cells, though we are fascinated by
it and do definitely want to try it, but we've
not had a chance to do so yet. But if

(41:07):
and when we do, we will be sure to share
with you what our experience was.

Speaker 1 (41:13):
Now.

Speaker 3 (41:13):
He goes on to say, I really enjoy your show
and have listened to almost every show. I hope you
do spin this off into a TV show, but please
keep up with the podcast as a way to screen
your TV possibilities and keep us informed while we drive. Well, Tim,
not to worry, we are not going anywhere. This podcast
is our labor of love, and when we do spin

(41:34):
off to a television show, this audio podcast is still
going to be around because we can dive a lot
deeper into the topics on this show than we could
on TV. Tim thanks again for sending.

Speaker 1 (41:45):
Us this note. Really appreciate it.

Speaker 3 (41:47):
And if you would like to hear your message on
the air, please feel free to go to Skeptic metaphysition
dot com. You can leave us a voicemail or a review,
or send us an email directly from the site. We'd
love to hear from you, and you never know, you
might just hear your words here on the air in
a future episode. Well, thanks for coming along on this

(42:09):
journey discovery with us. We'd love to continue our conversation
with you on our website at Skeptic Metaphysician dot com
or on Facebook and Instagram under a Skeptic Metaphysician podcast.
If you know someone who would benefit from hearing the
messages we're sharing on the show, do them and us
a favor and share the show with them. It will
help get the word out about us and it may

(42:31):
just change someone's life for the better. And if you're
listening to this on the radio and you missed something while,
not to worry. All of our shows, including this one,
can be found at Skeptic Metaphysician dot com. You can
also watch the videos or even send us an email
or voicemail directly from the site. We absolutely love feedback
and would appreciate hearing from you. Well. I hope you've

(42:54):
enjoyed this episod as much as we have.

Speaker 4 (42:55):
That's all for now.

Speaker 3 (42:56):
We'll see you on the next episode of The Skeptic Metaphysician.

Speaker 1 (43:00):
Until then, take care,

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