The Atheist’s Guide to Proof of the Afterlife - Classic - The Skeptic Metaphysicians | A Pragmatic Guide to Spiritual Awakening, Metaphysics & Consciousness

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Wtf just happened? Have you ever found yourself asking yourself
that question? Well, today's guest has, In fact, she does
that on a regular basis while diving into evidence of
the afterlife in psychic mediums as an atheist. If you're
one of those questions of validity behind life after death
claims being thrown around in our space all the time,

(00:21):
then this is the show for you. Because once she
started looking into all the evidence as an atheist, mind you,
she says that she was blown away.

Speaker 2 (00:30):
You don't want to miss this one. Welcome to the
Skeptic Metaphysicians.

Speaker 1 (00:34):
My name is Will and, unlike Boulder and Scully, to believe,
so we've embarked in a journey of discovery.

Speaker 2 (00:45):
Welcome to Skeptic Medicians Classic.

Speaker 1 (00:52):
You are listening to the classic Skeptic Metaphysicians. Welcome to
our version of a walkdown memory Lane as we present
classics from the Skeptic Metaphysician library, warts and all. Today's

(01:22):
story is called the Butterfly. A man found a cocoon
from a butterfly. One day, a small opening appeared, so
he sat and watched the butterfly for several hours as
it struggled to force its body through that little hole,
until suddenly it stopped making any progress and looked like
it was stuck. So the man decided to help the butterfly.

(01:45):
He took a pair of scissors and snipped off the
remaining bit of the cocoon so the butterfly could then
emerge easily. Although it had a swollen body in small,
shriveled wings, the man didn't think anything of it and
sat They're waiting for the wings to enlarge to support
the butterfly, But that never happened. The butterfly spent the

(02:07):
rest of its life unable to fly, crawling around with
tiny wings and a swollen body. Despite the kind heart
of the man, he didn't understand that the restricting cocoon
and the struggle needed by the butterfly to get itself
through the small opening were God's way of forcing fluid
from the body of the butterfly into its wings to

(02:29):
prepare itself for flying once it was out of the cocoon.

Speaker 2 (02:33):
Well, the moral of.

Speaker 1 (02:34):
This story fits in so well when it comes to
all things spiritual. You see, our struggles in life develop
our strengths. Without struggles, we never grow and never get stronger.

Speaker 2 (02:45):
So It's important for us.

Speaker 1 (02:46):
To tackle challenges on our own and be grateful for them,
because every challenge prepares us with the ability to handle
the results.

Speaker 2 (03:03):
Welcome to the skeptic metaphysicians.

Speaker 1 (03:06):
Liz Enton began examining evidence of an afterlife and anything
paranormal in twenty fifteen following the passing of her father,
but what she was still considers herself skeptical and an atheist.
The evidence that she found just blew her away. She's
the author of Wtf Just Happened? A science skeptic exploration
of grief, healing and evidence of an afterlife, and the

(03:27):
host of the podcast of the same name, all about
the afterlife. No role on that show, folks, just plain talk,
which you know I love. Obviously you've noticed that I
am without Karen today, Sadly she had a family obligation
to attend to so it's just me, but I am
super well accompanied by Elizabeth Enton.

Speaker 2 (03:44):
Lizabeth, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Speaker 3 (03:46):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited
to talk with you today.

Speaker 1 (03:50):
Me too, because what you talk about is right up
my alley. First and foremost, I know that you say
that you are an atheist, Right, So let's set the
table by atheists. You mean you don't believe in anything?
Or can you quantify that for me?

Speaker 3 (04:01):
Sure? I guess when I say atheist, I think of
atheist as believing in God and religion, and I've never
seen any evidence of God, and I've just I don't
think God has anything to do with an afterlife. I
think that two are completely separate, and I think the
alignment that so many people have to me, I respect it,

(04:22):
but from a factual perspective, it doesn't make any sense.

Speaker 1 (04:26):
I'm really curious to hear how you put the two together,
because like the space that we're into, spiritual world that
we're both in, it's really tied. Talk us a lot
about the afflet, but talks a lot about God or
the universe or energies or whatever it is. So you
don't think there's a if I'm correct me if I'm wrong,
you don't think that there's a white guy in a
robe sitting on a throne in heaven, right.

Speaker 3 (04:47):
So I would find that probably the least likely explanation
of everything that could happen. Yeah, am I going to
say factually? But to me that is I can't think
of anything less.

Speaker 1 (04:58):
Likely, right, So then what and I'm sorry we're debating
a little bit, but then what is your thought?

Speaker 2 (05:03):
Like, how what is God for you? If anything?

Speaker 3 (05:07):
Nothing? I mean, I have researched a lot of the
studies done on afterlife survival of consciousness non local consciousness,
and I just don't see how from I think it's
more of a physics based answer that in some form
that we don't know yet, similar probably to how the

(05:30):
cloud works. Ideally, something along the lines of the large
Hatred collider significantly were advanced, we'll be able to figure
out what this substance is. But that our consciousness is
not created by brain, but downloaded by a brain and
continues in some form that is much were answered by

(05:51):
particle physics than some singular moral consciousness that somewhat resembles
a human that a grand of religions I would say
as questionable morals anyway, and that that created all this.
It just seems just irrelevant to the topic. And there's
just a ton of data that our consciousness is not

(06:14):
local and downloaded, and to me, that question has nothing
to do with is there one singular, huge consciousness that
created it?

Speaker 1 (06:23):
So it's just Okay, So really I didn't mean to
make this into a conversation about religion or anything like
that or the meaning of God, but the question has
to be asked, do you then some people believe that
maybe we are all parts of God?

Speaker 3 (06:38):
Right?

Speaker 2 (06:38):
I don't hesitate to use that word in your presence.

Speaker 1 (06:41):
And when we die, when we pass on, we reconnect,
we become one once again. So then my question would
be first two questions. One is that your thought process?
And if so, then what is it that we join
up with?

Speaker 3 (06:56):
Okay, so first, no, my thought process is not that
at all. It was just I'd go into originally, my
original thought that even got me down this path, obviously,
aside from grief, was at this point I thought consciousness
was created by our brain neurons. And this will lead
into answering your question. So, if that happened once to

(07:16):
create a me or to create my dad, why could
it not happen again? Not necessarily me again, not related
to karma, but just another set of brain neurons coincidentally
creating another human and it would get to be something
I would experience, not as Liz, but just being somebody else.

(07:37):
As if you guys have the experience of being another person,
and to me, the only other thought I thought was
possible at that point was complete obliteration. So even though
I wouldn't have any memories of my life, it was
better than never having an experience of consciousness. Again, Part
two of my thought was is there any possibility, in

(07:57):
any way, shape or form that some of the memories
have carried over? So I googled that. I found researchers
at the University of Virginia, doctor Jim Tucker and his
mentor who since passed away, doctor Ian Stephenson, factually studying
cases of kids with past life memories and getting accurate
results after matching up with data, so my whole approach. Afterwards,

(08:18):
I found Windbridge with doctor Julie Bishell. More researchers at
the University of Virginia such as doctor Bruce Grayson who
studied near death experiences, and doctor ed Kelly and doctor
Emily Kelly who also studies mediumship, and significantly others. So
I just came from it not is there a God,

(08:40):
but is there any data that shows that in some way,
shape or form, we can get information mediums can get
information that's factual and accurate that they could not know
by normal means such as googleing, cold reading. And if so,

(09:00):
all of this is happening from accurate medium readings, cases
of kids with past life memories that check out near
death experiences. This stuff and occurrences and results are absolutely
not explicable. If our consciousness is created by brain neurons
and when we die, that's it. So what answers does
that leave? And this data just there's no answer in

(09:23):
the explanation of consciousness created by a brain that could
explain for this. I sincerely hope it's survival of consciousness.
I think that's the most likely explanation. And where is
it we go? I don't know. I wish I knew.
Mediums will say it's just this place of complete love
I have. Personally, I don't like the word belief because

(09:46):
none of this is based on belief. It's based on
actual data and some personal experiences I've had, such as
getting medium readings. That's all some other weird things, but.

Speaker 2 (09:58):
We'll talk about all those, but go ahead.

Speaker 3 (10:00):
Yeah, yeah, this is just pure data. So I don't
like to have belief in anything. I'm sure I'm human.
We all have beliefs. It's impossible to say I don't
carry beliefs, but I try not to, and so where
do we go? So maybe this is my coming in
with a little bit of belief. Mediums say that when
we pass away, it's all love, and then we come
here to learn. I have a hard time believing that

(10:21):
in this other dimension it's all perfect, pure love with
the conflict we have here. So I'm guessing they might
experience it that way, if I could guess. And again
this isn't data. This is now I am going a
little into the belief realm. But my guess is they
experience that, or people experience in your death experiences is
all love because like you know, let's say you've been

(10:45):
traveling for a month that haven't talked to your parents
or your spouse, and you reach them, you're able to
call them and you're like, oh my god, I love
you so much. You're not arguing over stupid things or
irritated with each other, and or you come back from
a I know, I'm thinking about like the first time
you go to college and you come home and see
your parents, like that first day, and I'm sure there

(11:05):
are exceptions, but overall that first day you just feel
so like the warmth and love. So near death experiences
is the very first moments of crossing over. So that's
my guess.

Speaker 1 (11:16):
I can totally see and hear the scientists skeptic still
hiding under your words, and yet you're trying to in
your mind make things make sense from a pragmatic point
of view. And I love that because that's been me
the entire time up until well, this show has changed.

Speaker 2 (11:32):
Some things for me, let's just put it that way.

Speaker 1 (11:34):
But what I find interesting is that there's a thought
that science there's no way that science can explain some
of these things, because our scientific instruments stop just short
of being able to measure into this other realm that
we apparently go to once we pass over. So really

(11:55):
there's no way to truly know what's out there without
actually experiencing ourselves. And yet it seems that a lot
of us who are pragmatic in mindset and scientific and skeptical,
we tend to try to still wrap it around some
form of scientific explanation for something that may or may
not have a scientific basis.

Speaker 2 (12:16):
To talk specifically about your.

Speaker 1 (12:18):
Love comment, that makes perfect sense right as you come
back from a long trip, and also you see your
family for the first time, and oh my god, you're
reminded of how much you missed them and how much
you love them. And then maybe that passes, maybe doesn't.
Most of the time it passes a little bit, the
intensity is not as strong. But then there's another school
of thought that says that we are love, that that
is our true nature. We are love, So when we

(12:39):
pass over, we're actually becoming who we truly are, which
is love. At which point, then, might we experience complete
love with abandon while we're out there?

Speaker 3 (12:49):
I would think it would get boring. I do think
in one sense, and again this is more getting into
philosophy than evidence. I do think we are in essence
love sense, that's when we thrive. But I don't think.
I mean, we just can't say that's all there is
to us. It seems like too much wishful thinking. Because

(13:09):
of how there are people who are really cruel people.
We can't deny that there's conflict, So I just where
does that come from? I don't think. I think it
would just be going against facts to say there's only love.
Is that the ideal is that maybe what our goal
is to strive towards. Yes, And I mean I hope

(13:30):
we just cross over and there's only love, but maybe
it's like thirty dimensions down the line, because otherwise I
don't think like a Hitler or I mean, I'll leave
politics out of it, but you know, people you know
would be here, so you know, like, yeah, Hitler are
serial killers.

Speaker 2 (13:48):
Right right?

Speaker 1 (13:49):
I understand what you're saying, And I think we could
debate this for a long time because I love it
and I love playing Devil's advocate. Very quickly, though, I
will say that could it not be that when we
are in that other plane, we are perfection? Right love,
we are goodness incarnate. It's the act of coming into

(14:09):
the three dimensional space where we forget our divinity that
then we become human and have the foibles that come
along with being human. From the get there's a school
of thought that says that we are perfect, but when
we come here and become human, that's when our foibles
take over. Our emotions are greed, right, There's no doubt,

(14:30):
especially in this country, that greed is a runaway problem
right now.

Speaker 2 (14:35):
And I think greed is the cause.

Speaker 1 (14:37):
Of a lot of our challenges and our problems, and
I think that's because of the human condition when we
all just want more and more and more, right, that
competitive edge we've had since we were cavemen, right.

Speaker 3 (14:48):
I mean, I sincerely hope we just all a crossover
and it's pure love. But I think from what we
know with near death experiences, and I think this would
make the most sense, is that you go through life
review where you're really accountable. My thought that we and
again philosophy not evidence aside from the life review, my

(15:10):
thought that it would just we're all just so advanced
and then come here. It's kind of like, well, why
come here? Maybe this is the step working towards that,
but pure love, I mean, who wouldn't want that to
be true? I mean, I will be really happy if
that's the case. Right, But my guess is maybe we're
much more, like much more advanced than what we are

(15:35):
here and it's the next step. But I still do
think there's some form of progress. I mean, you look
at a two year old and they have a fight
and they're screaming at each other, and like someone takes
the one two year old's toy and they throw like
sand in the sandbox in the other's face and to
them grown ups, And again I'm sure there's exceptions of

(15:56):
really horrible traumatic homes, but overall, grown ups look like
they don't have problems because you never see adults act
that way. But then there's this whole other slew of problems.
And when you look back at being two, you're like,
oh my god, I can't believe. I was upset that
my friend wanted to play with my teddy bear for
a two minus and my parents made me give it
to them for five minutes to learn to share, and

(16:16):
that was the worst thing that ever happened. And you
just have such a perspective. But then we have a
whole other slew of problems that a two year old
wouldn't necessarily understand, and we deal with them in a
way a two year old wouldn't observe. And if I
could guess, it's something like that as you progress. But

(16:37):
I also think, if you just are that and you
come here, why come here? Although I yeah, I mean,
I definitely don't think it's like I think evils more
complex than just evil, but I do think there are evil.
Energy is probably I don't know, but I have a
hard time believing it's just love and an only just

(16:59):
human that makes things. Something's horrible. I think we have
to look at the facts that there is a lot
of horrible and a lot of good and both are true.
And what is the source We don't know yet, But
I do think we have an innate drive to move
towards love and good. I mean feeling anger and hatred
and it's a horrible feeling. We don't but this is

(17:22):
such a complicated philosophy. It's this is all just kind
of playing with ideas. I can't say I'll killing you, and.

Speaker 2 (17:28):
That's really what we're doing here, right.

Speaker 1 (17:30):
I love the debate over dinner, over coffee, over a drink,
trying to be Devil's advocated and trying to look at
it in the philosophical point of view from different perspectives
is all great. But I do want to talk specifically
about you and how you got into this space, because
the death of a loved one is always incredibly traumatic,

(17:50):
and some people handle it in different ways. You ran
in the direction of is their life after death? Because
I assume you wanted to make contact in some way
where others might have just oh, well, he's gone and
moved on to life. You drove into it in a
very sincere way. So I want to hear about that

(18:11):
before we move forward.

Speaker 3 (18:13):
Yeah, there's two tears I think to that first, just
the innate, like shattering grief and just that moment of desperation. Actually,
even before I thought of and found the research of
doctor Jim Tucker, my immediate thought was, is there a
way to turn back time? Since I started fine, you know,

(18:35):
reading about time, Einstein's theory of time relativity and so
much of science fiction has ended up coming true. Is
there some scientific way to turn back time? And you know,
one day in like five thousand years, someone will know
to go back and get my dad at this day
when medicine is significantly better. And so that was just

(18:59):
the very first thought. I didn't I think it was practical,
but it was sort of the only place I knew
to go to. And so from there I was so
fascinated by what I discovered about the relativity of time
and just our universe is all significantly different than we perceive,
and then finding the research of doctor Jim Tucker, and
it became a combination of this desperation to see my

(19:25):
dad again and not just think he was obliterated, facing
my own mortality and other ones mortality, and just this
mind blown fascination, like if you have never ever thought
something like an afterlife was possible. Aside from my guess
when I was very little, like my parents told me
some like cute story of heaven. Then I was a
little older and they're like, oh, yeah, that was like
you can think of that like Santa Claus and the

(19:46):
Easter money pretty much. You know, that was obviously what
you tell a child about death and just it was both.
If this was to be true, this was the most
remarkable thing I could have made in terms of happiness.
I just it would be unfathomable, and it just some
existential dread would change, and scientifically, just the most fascinating thing.

(20:11):
Like think about when you're a child and you have
I guess, this fantasy of finding its hidden door to
a whole new secret world. It's like, this is existing.
This is the most amazing scientific breakthrough. The only thing
that I could imagine equating that would be opening a
door and walking into a room and seeing colors I'd
never seen before, or finding out you can space travel

(20:32):
to a new galaxy with different species, not even our
Solar system, like a whole or galaxy, a whole new
galaxy and just it had that level of fascination as
well as you know, realistic hope I could see my
dad and could continue living myself. So that was what
just propelled me and propelled me, and I can go

(20:53):
more into what I learned and experience if you'd like.

Speaker 1 (20:56):
Yeah, no, we're definitely going to do that. Just to
clear for your dad passed away from medical complications.

Speaker 3 (21:01):
Yes, yeah, I hate had a stroke, gotcha.

Speaker 2 (21:04):
Yep. When you mentioned someone traveling back in time and
getting the medicine he needed to make himself better, I
wanted to clarify that. I assumed that the way that
you researched whether there was life after death was by
reaching out to psychic mediums and things like that to
see if you can make contact. Were you able let's
just jump to the spoiler. Were you able to make
contact with your dad?

Speaker 3 (21:25):
I'm pretty sure I did? Yes, and oh yeah. After
doing the research. It took me reading multiple studies and
books and up to quintuple blinded studies on mediumship and
taking some classes at the Ryan Education centered all this
logical science and reading it and reading it before I

(21:46):
was like, maybe this might sound crazy, but maybe I'll
go get a medium reading and go to some medium workshops,
and my very first reading, she knew stuff she could
not have known. I hide my identity. I wasn't like, Hi,
I'm Elizabeth Edon, here's my credit card, here's my email
and phone number. Yes, yes, exactly. I'm like, you're in

(22:10):
none of that. And she was amazing, and I was like,
what the fuck, Like I just saw someone in front
of my face to fi the laws of the universe.
It was like I had chills. She brought in my dad,
my grandma, my cat. I was just like wow, amazed,
and I just remember leaving and turning to my mom,

(22:30):
who I may come out with me, but she went
into a different room. She wouldn't come in. She thinks
this is all crazy. But I just turned to her
and I was like, oh my god, I think this
is real. And from there I was just so amazed.
I'm like I have to see this again. So I
started getting other medium ratings, and it was across the board,
like I had quite a few where I think they

(22:52):
were very honest hearted but not very accurate. I had
a couple that I was like, oh, they are completely
full of shit and they know it. Yeah, And then
I had more that. I was just like, they could
not have known this, and it just it's so profound.
It's just like, yeah, like getting or getting to travel intergalactically,

(23:16):
getting to jump into another dimension of string theory. It's
just I almost know the words for how profound it was. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:25):
Now, have you had any experience with the organization that
studies near death experiences?

Speaker 3 (23:30):
Oh? Yeah, yeah, I've read a lot of gone to
some of their zoom talk, especially when we were all
in quarantine. I think really highly of them.

Speaker 2 (23:38):
Right.

Speaker 1 (23:39):
So, because there are a lot of scientifically minded people
in that organization, which is great, then you have the
people who are just full on in the WU and
I find it, I find it really interesting to see
the dynamic between that whole group windre in the same
room together.

Speaker 2 (23:54):
But how long did.

Speaker 1 (23:55):
It take from the time that your father passed when
you started looking into this in earnest to the moment
you got your psychic medium reading that went huaw and
changed your whole world? How long was that the research?

Speaker 3 (24:06):
See I got my first reading, she said I had
to wait till my dad. Iviously, I didn't tell her
it was my dad, so my person I had to
wait until they had been gone at least six months.
That's what this specific woman said. And I was on
another woman's waitlist who has a really long waitlist. So
I ended up going to her workshops, but I hadn't
gotten a reading with her, So this woman, I guess,

(24:29):
let's see, it was maybe about eight months after my research,
after I started my research that I got my first reading.

Speaker 2 (24:36):
Okay, yeah, it's interesting. Six months.

Speaker 1 (24:38):
I hadn't heard that number. I think I heard forty days.
It has to be, but I did hear. It's consistent
with you have to wait a certain amount of time
because I guess the soul has to get acclimated or
whatever it is.

Speaker 3 (24:49):
Different mediums say different things. I have come to think
it's just a personal choice of the mediums, and each one,
I'm sure has their own reasons for saying it. But
I've or heard of mediums have someone come in that
day and you know, I maybe I mean, I'm gonna
I don't know. I'd have to respect and ask why

(25:10):
each one says what they say. But there isn't a
consistency in that. I have heard some say they will
say that because they just having someone that early in grief,
they don't feel comfortable with They feel the person needs
to process, They feel could be dangerous for them psychologically,
like they're not therapists. They feel they don't want to

(25:30):
take them on that early. But each one so some
of them it's ethics, some of them maybe the way
their vibrations work they can't connect until six months. I
don't specifically know for each of them, but they all
have different reasons.

Speaker 1 (25:43):
It's interesting to hear you talk because you are very
pragmatic in lots of different ways, and you just talked
about different vibrations that different people have. That doesn't really
fit into that box. So I'm fascinated in the time
between twenty fifteens, that year dead past and now it's
almost ten years. Have you seen a progression of change.

Speaker 2 (26:03):
In you as you go? Are you starting to lean
more towards maybe some more WU material or is this
are you very much sticking to this is scientific and
there's nothing that can change my mind.

Speaker 3 (26:16):
I guess you can say I'm leaning more towards what
people could call WU, but with a non WO approach,
I think I guess I'll go to things have happened
that would be defined as WU. But I think In
the end, everything science science is just explains the facts
of how things work. So I think this happened. There's

(26:38):
a quote actually by doctor Ian Stevenson. I'm not saying
it's true. I'm just saying it happened. So these things
are happening, and I won't use I think when you
get into WU there's using somewhat of unrelatable words and
an acceptance that of just belief, and you're not trying
to get data. So I will say this happened. I

(26:59):
don't know what to say about it, but at this
aspect verified it. This was just a weird thing that
happened that wasn't verifiable. I would like to try to
verify it more and putting it all together using factual language.
Like an example, just quickly, let's say you take an
out of body experience and someone goes out and to me,

(27:20):
the word vibration isn't so woo because it's literally a
physical experience, and even stranger I will talk. Yeah, So
when I've tried to do out of body exercises, I
will feel waves and what is literally vibration. It's like
what would be used a vibration if you took like
you stood on like a vibrating plate, you know, which
is what the gym classes I go to, and I'll

(27:42):
feel them a few feet above my body. I can't
say I know why I'm doing that. So if you
take a woo for lack of a better word, approach,
you'd say, I rose into the energetic field and I
felt like the angels around me. And if you're to
take a science based approach, I say, I felt as
if there were waves of vibrations, and if the nerves

(28:05):
of my body, instead of ending at my skin, ended
a few feet above. And that's just the facts. I'm
not adding more to it. So what's the next step.
The next step is to try to get better and
see if I can go verify something if it really
is out of body? Can I actually start to get
senses and physiological senses like eyesight and smell. And some

(28:25):
people have and they report back then with facts that
they were able to verify. So that is the next step.
So I just try to report only the facts and
not draw conclusions beyond what I can get from actual facts.

Speaker 1 (28:40):
Sure makes perfect sense. So I got to ask a question,
have you yourself been able to leave your body?

Speaker 3 (28:47):
I don't know, So is that leaving my body when
I feel sensations a few feet above? Maybe I've had
dreams of going to places that were then verified, But
what is that? Is that leaving my body? Is that
remote viewing, which I guess ob out of body experiences
OBEs versus remote viewing could be described as I come

(29:11):
over to your place and I say, oh, you have
that blue cup on your table, versus work here on video,
which would more be remote viewing. Oh I see that
blue cup on your table. We don't know know's how
it works. I was I out of body? Was I
getting was I remote viewing? Was I psychically reading somebody

(29:34):
and then saw what they saw? I don't know, but
some people will say they've gone out of body, and
I will believe them when they have been able to
verify where they felt they were out of body, They
felt sensations, they visited somebody, and they came or a
place and came back with information about that person or place.
And other people have even verified and said, oh, you know,

(29:54):
maybe they visit someone who's a medium and they'll say, oh,
I saw you, you were out of body at this time,
and something corroborates.

Speaker 1 (30:02):
So then they've kind to bring it back to something
you said earlier. It's fascinating to think about it. Is
it something that someone psychically or whatever esp Wise telepathy
receive that information from you and then you spit it
out saying this that whatever, could the psychic medium, instead
of actual having contact with your dearly departed dad, gotten

(30:25):
the information from you psychically and that's what you heard.

Speaker 3 (30:29):
That is one of the big questions I actually, doctor
Julie Bischel, I have a few responses to this. First
of all, there's actual studies done by Windbridge to test
for just that, and they, for example, one of the
ways they do highly blinded readings where the sitter goes
and takes down all the information. The sitter is the

(30:51):
one who the medium is giving the information to, and
the sitter doesn't actually know I guess they're called proxyitter.
They actually don't know who the reading is for. It's
one of the experimenters out of I don't know what
pool or volunteer experimenters, and so how could the medium

(31:12):
be reading the mind of that sitter. So then I
mean you can look at one Bridge for all the details,
but essentially the person they're giving information too does not know.
Then there's another part where mediums have given me information
I thought was wrong and said no and clarified with
somebody else, one of my friends who's a medium. This

(31:33):
was early in our friendship, so she didn't know much
about me. My uncle had recently passed. I purposely did
not tell her that, and she I'd always thought he
was over six feet. He was under six feet. I'm
really angry about it. But I was ever told that.
I didn't even know because I guess he was really angry,
and he was young and my parents were older parents,
so like by the time he was older in middle
age when I was born, he wasn't talking about it anymore.

(31:55):
But she kept saying he's just under six feet, and
I kept saying no, and it was true. And that's
not the only bit of information. And this has come
up repeatedly in research. Now. Another part of this is mediums.
I've got to trust them at this point, once we've
passed scientific studies. Once I know, I mean, I wouldn't
go on this alone. But they say it feels completely different.

(32:16):
They'll describe it in different ways. And now there's one
medium who even says she sees psychic information on once.
She likes sees a screen and see psychic information on
the left and mediumship on the right. I might have
reversed it. But she's also studied highly by scientists. She's
had her brain scanned and the brain activity in psychic
versus medium shows up differently.

Speaker 2 (32:37):
It's fascinating.

Speaker 3 (32:38):
That's amazingly insane.

Speaker 2 (32:39):
Right, quick question.

Speaker 1 (32:41):
I do want to talk to you about the book
in the podcast, but before we do that, a question
jumps into my mind. Because you've had a lot of
experience with psychic mediums. I know there's an organization out
there that certifies mediums. We had him on the show
to talk about his organization that he founded, which I
think is fantastic, and they actually have a website where
here the mediums that are actually certified as and they

(33:02):
have to be one hundred percent they can't have any
single thing incorrect.

Speaker 3 (33:08):
That's not true. Actually, yeah, So I'm very bald with
Forever Family Foundation. Bob and his late wife fran Ginsberg
were my abbosite mentors. Using Fran was just one of
the hardest things.

Speaker 2 (33:19):
So you knew you knew fannin.

Speaker 3 (33:20):
I knew her very well.

Speaker 2 (33:21):
She got that's amazing because when we met Bob, she
had already passed.

Speaker 3 (33:25):
Uh yeah, yeah, fran Is like, I feel yeah, she
was probably one of the most important people in my
life the past few years. So yes, I know, Fran
very very well.

Speaker 1 (33:37):
I was only the person. They have to be one
hundred percent accurate. That that's not the case.

Speaker 3 (33:40):
That is not the case. No medium is one hundred
percent accurate. They have to be significantly accurate, beyond the
odds of chance. So for example, let's say I'll take
a random person. Let's say they lost their grandmother, Sarah
who so medium might sit there and say name like Sarah, Sarah,

(34:01):
I'm getting a grandmother energy on your mother's side. She
died at seventy. She was a high school teacher, had
two children, and she rode horses, and that's really significant.
Let's say she was not a high school teacher and
that was wrong. Let's say she did not ride horses,

(34:23):
but the rest is really impressive. So that would still
be a medium who passed.

Speaker 1 (34:29):
Okay, and well, then I apologize to all those psychic medums.
So I called a fraud in my mind when they
were wrong with one thing. So sorry you about that, right, But.

Speaker 3 (34:38):
If they're getting most wrong, or if a mediums aren't
getting everything right, but it's general, Like you have a
thirty year old sitting in front of you, and you're
like you've had a lot of loss, Like you don't
have any living great grandparents? Am I right? And you know,
you know, I see that your great grandmother they sort
of were in like that traditional role, and your great
grandfather was too, like the male female. They had a

(34:59):
lot of children. Like there's things that just can be
very general, generation based, and some of those mediums might
be frauds. They might be really genuine hearted and just
get very general information and maybe just haven't pushed themselves
to be evidential because maybe their clients haven't acquired it,
or maybe they're just things are popping. Like I've taken

(35:19):
mediumship classes and I've sat with people and given them readings,
and information is coming into my head. That's really logical
because I'm doing the assignments. I'm told to say what
comes into my head, and I know it's coming logically,
and I'm trying to be right to do the assignment
because I'm there. But and the person depending who are

(35:42):
either maybe they're very believing or I'm in the class
with them, and they're trying to be respectful, and they're like, oh,
you're good, you're getting everything right. I'm like right, but
of course I am, because there's just certain things any
person can deduce, right, sure, sure.

Speaker 2 (35:54):
So then do you think that the only way to
make sure you don't get swindled by psych medium moves
us foolish is to just not give them any information
at all, to be a complete blank slate or are
there are other ways that you can make sure that
doesn't happen to you.

Speaker 3 (36:08):
I think that it's a fine line. In the beginning,
I was just like, give nothing. I think I think
it's a fine line. I think take protocols give you know,
hide your identity as much as you can, and when
you're sitting there, I mean you have to let them
lead a little bit, but you can afterwards be like, oh,

(36:30):
that was like bullshit. But I think if they if
they come in and the first thing they say is yeah,
it really is a fine line because I did it
too much of like not say anything in the beginning,
and scientific studies like again, if you read like the
research studies like doctor Jillie Bisch, you literally give nothing

(36:51):
but you know, when you're getting a reading, it's a
fine line. You know, don't give them more than they
ask for. If they're like, I'm getting like a teen named,
I'll be like, oh my god, that's my brother. I
can't believe he's here and he I miss him so much.
We were twins. Don't do that. Say yes, and then

(37:12):
if they ask for a little more, if they're like, oh,
I'm just not getting like I'm getting he's your generation,
but not more than that, then you can say, okay,
he was my twin. Or if you're understanding something and
they're not, and you can tell like, let's say I
don't know like you okay, so I'm giving a little

(37:35):
my own evidence here, but you know, okay, like I
got a few readings in the beginning where they're like,
he was your dad either hurting a fire or was
he a fireman? Who's the fireman? Why am I hearing fire?
Fire Island was really important in our family as a child,
So maybe they're seeing a fire because you are working

(37:56):
with humans. So my dad would be like fire dollar,
fire island fire, So they're just seeing fire because fire
Island isn't any place they've ever heard of or been.
Let's say, so they're saying, so he's giving them because
it's not like it's not as good as being on
the phone. It's just not. If it was, we wouldn't
be questioning and studying. If there was an afterlife, we
would know. So if you just sit there and are

(38:21):
so literal that you say no, then you're not going
to get more. But if you say in that situation,
I would say, yeah, there's something. I'd be like, not exactly,
but fire makes sense. Can you give me a little more?
And if they're like, oh, I can't, you know, can
you give me some more? Then you yeah. And then
I'd say Fire Island is where I went in the summers.
And maybe suddenly they're like, oh my god, yes that's it.

(38:42):
That feels right. And I believe they say that feels
right because they're certified by Forever Family or Windbridge, and
they got quite a bit of information, Like they got
the letter of my dad. They don't always get the name,
sometimes they do. They got like aspects of his personality
and hobbies and work. So I'm like, okay, I already
try them. And so then if I say, yes it

(39:04):
was Fire Island, my readings can be that much better
because that's, oh, that makes so much sense. Let's see
if we can go further with that, and maybe they
get a specific memory from that. I think if if
you're not doing what I'm doing, where it's really about research,
and you go to a medium and they're not getting
after information and they're trying to ask you a lot
of questions. Because I've experienced this and it's clear they're fishing,

(39:26):
I will start to let them lead and go along
with it because it helps my research. If I really
just wanted this reading for itself and I wasn't getting
readings regularly and exploring, you have a right to say
don't wait like forty minutes in, but after like five
or ten minutes if everything you're saying is no an
ethical medium will say, and this has happened to me,

(39:48):
I'm so sorry, I'm not getting the information that you need.
I'm not connecting. We can end this now and I'll
refund you, or you can come back and like am
and we'll see if it's better. So it's all a balance.
I think the way to prevent getting swindled don't give
your information upfront, don't make it Google a ball. Then

(40:10):
once you're there, it's really it's refined, and just don't
pour out. Just try to say yes, no or maybe
until there's a reason to say anything more than that,
and then the other. This is just one of the things.
I mean, some people might just be like, well obviously,
but nevertheless, people when you're in grief or trauma, your
brains don't work the same way. So there is it

(40:31):
is absolutely not on you if this has happened to
you in any way. But some mediums which had happened
to me told me I had like bad energy around me,
and she sold three hundred dollars candles that would cure it.
Anyone who tries to sell do not, do not, do not.
That doesn't mean if you know, if you're like, oh,
you know, I'd love to try to say it geting

(40:52):
again then or another reading or something, Yeah, you're gonna
have to pay for another service. But they don't try
to sell up any epsisse you.

Speaker 2 (41:00):
Have a curse on your family and I can lift
it for five hundred dollars.

Speaker 3 (41:03):
Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Speaker 1 (41:06):
So I do want to talk to you about your
book and your podcast. Wtf just happened?

Speaker 3 (41:12):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (41:12):
Was the book first, Or was the podcast first? Which
came first? Chick into the Egg.

Speaker 3 (41:16):
Book came way first. The podcast. Yes, the podcast was
one of those I'm lonely and alone in my room
and isolated over quarantine. I want to talk to our people.
Let me just try a podcast. It'll be fun. And
then it was so much more fun than I expected,
and I taught myself podcast. It was just ended up
being an addition. But now something I definitely want to

(41:38):
stick with.

Speaker 1 (41:38):
We've talked all this time about afterlife and psychic mediums.
Is that what you show in your book is about
or is it?

Speaker 2 (41:45):
Does it dive a little bit more into other things?

Speaker 3 (41:48):
So my book, it's another one's going to be coming
out at some point and it soon. So my book
which Alex, my wife, said that. So my books start
with from when my father first got really sick to
about maybe like two to three years after and all

(42:11):
the research I had done in my experiences. Then it
talks some It doesn't start with mediums. It starts with
the research of doctor Jim Tucker, and it starts with
kind of how I'm like, oh my god, what the fuck?
Like there actually seems to be some evidence, but there
has to be a catch. And it starts with how
I keep going further and further with this and then
start meeting the people, and then you know, so much

(42:33):
has happened since the book ended, so much like I've
gotten This is just you know, when I first start
meeting the people and now I've gotten to know them
really well and have participated with them in experiments and
done so much more. And that's what I'm gonna go
into next. So this is just the whole journey what
the fuck just happened of how I went from thinking
there was zero chance of it after life to all
these very logical reasons to why I completely changed my mind.

(42:57):
And it's actually like light and funny and talks about
like all the awkward things that happened along the way,
like just yeah, I met the mediums and tried to
like see if they were cheating, and like one who's
one of my best friends now like thought I was
like a journalist trying to expose him. Just really silly
things happened along the way. And fran is a big

(43:18):
part of the book too.

Speaker 2 (43:19):
So that was in the book.

Speaker 1 (43:20):
Then, So then you do you suggest you read the
book first and then listen to the podcast.

Speaker 2 (43:23):
Or can you jump in the podcast now without having
had to read.

Speaker 3 (43:26):
The book, you can jump into the podcast. So the
podcast is a variety. It's psychic mediums I have like,
it's parapsychologists like Lloyd Arbach, it's a few people who've
had personal experiences who verify it. It's near death researchers,
it's I have someone who's an animal communicator. Yeah, so

(43:48):
just it's across the board. I even have someone the
episode hasn't come out yet, but I'm going to have
ones on Out of Body. I'm gonna have once on
remote viewing. I'm gonna have a skeptic who's like a
professional skeptic who doesn't think any ya this is true,
And we just get into a really interesting conversation. And
that's actually one of my favorite episodes. Not ready yet,
but it's just really interesting.

Speaker 1 (44:07):
This sounds fascinating. I can't believe that the time has
flown so fast. If someone wanted to listen to your
show or reach out to you, where we're going to add,
for sure those links in our show notes. But what's
the best way for someone to reach you? If they
are so inclined, you can.

Speaker 3 (44:23):
Go to my website, which is wtf just happened? Dot
net because that links to everything. You can link to
my email, you can link to Amazon, you can buy
my book, you can link to all the places that
you can listen to my podcast or on all the
usual places. You can find me on my social media
like Instagram and TikTok. A lot of people reach out

(44:44):
to me on Instagram. You can email me and all
that's right on my website for you to find perfect
That's awesome.

Speaker 2 (44:50):
This has been so much fun. We're definitely going to
add those links.

Speaker 1 (44:52):
I'm going to connect with you offline because any friend
of Bob's a friend of.

Speaker 2 (44:56):
Mine for sure.

Speaker 3 (44:57):
Thank you so much.

Speaker 2 (45:00):
We have a lot more skeptic in position coming up,
so stay with us. We'll be right back.

Speaker 1 (45:16):
We got what might be our new favorite review. This
one is from John Messina and he gave us a
five star review and titled it great show for those
both new and old to metaphysics. He goes on to say,
I'm a ups driver for work, so I've got a
lot of podcasts listening time because of this. I've listened

(45:36):
to almost every episode of the show. Amazing. I've believed
in many if not all of the modality spoken about
on this podcast. For as long as I can remember,
I felt weird for just having a knowing about certain things,
and because of my knowing, I always understood that the
world around me wasn't ready to talk about this stuff yet,
so I kept it to myself forever.

Speaker 2 (45:57):
The chameleon.

Speaker 1 (45:58):
I still explored it well in my twenties, diving into
all sorts of mind expanding situations and discussions with the
few I knew would hear and understand me. Then I
got a big boy job, and that part of me
stayed on the back burner for a few years. Well,
a few months back, I was craving something that could
connect to on all levels. Enter the skeptic metaphysicians. After

(46:19):
a brief Google search for best podcasts that discussed metaphysics,
I found this podcast at the top of the list,
So naturally I dove in. Fast forward about four months
and I only have a couple of episodes left. My
only complaint is that there isn't a few hundred more episodes,
but I guess I should have paced myself better, so
that's on me. You guys are great. Thank you for

(46:42):
all the work you do. And making me feel normal.
And folks, that's the most important part of this review.
This last sentence re says, thank you for making me
feel normal. And that's a very powerful statement because a
lot of us are feeling this seismic shift that is
happening in our world right now, and a lot of

(47:04):
us are feeling weird and off, and this stuff, if
it speaks to us, if it resonates with us, sometimes
it makes us feel like we're not right, that we're
not normal. And the fact that we're diving into these
things we're showcasing, we're showing that these things, these feelings
are coming inside of you, they're normal. We're all real,

(47:26):
normal people going through an awakening en mass. So if
you've ever felt abnormal, then take it from John. This
is the show for you because we are normalizing these conversations. John,
thank you. Thank you so much for sending us this
review and for being such an avid listener of our show.

(47:48):
We can't do it without you, and we really appreciate you.
If you would like to hear your review read on
the air, just go to Skeptic Metaphysicians dot com. You
can either leave us a review they are written or
or go to Apple Podcasts and leave us a review
written there, or if you prefer to speak your mind,
you can always go to skeptic metaphsicition dot com, hit

(48:09):
the leave us a voicemail tab and record us a
voicemail that we would possibly air on the show. Thanks again, John,
and thank you for listening to the show. Thanks for
coming along on this journey discovery with us. We'd love
to continue our conversation with you on our website at
Skeptic Metaphysician dot com or on Facebook and Instagram under

(48:31):
Skeptic Metaphysician podcast. If you know someone who would benefit
from hearing the messages we're sharing on the show, do
them and us a favor and share the show with them.
It will help get the word out about us and
it may just change someone's life for the better. And
if you're listening to this on the radio and you
missed something while, not to worry. All of our shows,
including this one, can be found at Skeptic Metaphysician dot com.

(48:56):
We can also watch the videos or even send us
an email or voicemail directly from the site. We absolutely
love feedback and would appreciate hearing from you.

Speaker 2 (49:06):
I hope you've enjoyed this episode as much as we have.
That's all for now.

Speaker 1 (49:09):
We'll see you on the next episode of Dyskeptic Metaphysicians.

Speaker 2 (49:13):
Until then, take care,

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