This episode of The Sleep Edit is all about you—our listeners. We’re tackling the most common (and frustrating) pediatric sleep challenges straight from your inbox:
- What to do when your toddler suddenly won’t nap
- How to handle a preschooler who wakes five times a night
- When to push bedtime later—and when not to
- Strategies for night weaning, managing anxiety, and fixing early morning wake-ups
- Plus: Why our parents swear we were “better sleepers” back in the ’80s and ’90s
Whether you’re a parent in the trenches or a sleep consultant supporting families, this episode is packed with actionable insights and real-world context.
⏱️
Chapters & Timestamps
00:00 — Welcome & Disclaimer
01:55 — How Long Should a One-Nap Schedule Last?
A parent asks how long to let a toddler nap after transitioning to one nap—without disrupting night sleep.
04:24 — Does Your Toddler Need a Later Bedtime?
Signs that bedtime might be too early and what research says about optimal timing.
07:15 — Arielle’s Take on 24-Hour Sleep
A fellow consultant asks Arielle how she explains this foundational concept.
10:32 — What Is 24-Hour Sleep Anyway?
A parent wants to understand how to think about total daily sleep needs.
12:59 — Easiest Way to Night Wean a Toddler
Strategies for toddlers waking twice a night for milk.
16:05 — Why Were 80s Babies “Better Sleepers”?
Craig answers a fun cultural question: Have parenting expectations changed—or is it selective memory?
21:18 — 4-Year-Old Suddenly Waking All Night (Tried Everything)
Becky shares a sleep regression story after months of solid sleep and multiple failed interventions.
26:45 — 2-Year-Old Needs Touch to Fall Asleep, Progressive Breaks Failing
Charlotte asks whether this method is right for her daughter after meltdowns.
32:17 — 7-Year-Old with Bedtime Anxiety & Nightmares
A parent shares a common dilemma: supporting an anxious child without becoming a permanent bedtime fixture.
39:12 — 5-Year-Old Calls Out But Stays in Bed
Carys from the UK wonders how to manage frequent call-outs from a child who does fall asleep independently.
44:06 — Toddler Wakes at 5 a.m.—Can We Shift Later?
Anjo asks how to extend a solid 7–5 schedule without creating new problems.
46:50 — Sibling Sleep Chaos: Two Kids, Two Problems
Pat shares a double trouble scenario: one kid waking for milk, another up too early and waking the house.
51:03 — Nap Refusal at Home, But Not Daycare
Morgan asks how to handle nap refusal at home after major life changes (new baby, new daycare).
55:10 — Final Thoughts & Wrap-Up
Links
Arielle’s new website : Expect to Sleep Again
Arielle on Instagram: @expecttosleepagain
Research links:
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Welcome to the Sleep Edit, apodcast devoted to helping tired
kids and parents sleep better.
We focus on actionable evidence-basedsleep advice, so everyone in your
home can sleep through the night.
Now, a quick disclaimer, this podcastis for general informational purposes
only and does not constitute thepractice of medicine, nursing, or
other professional healthcare services,including the giving of medical advice.
(00:27):
No doctor patient relationship is formed.
The use of this information andthe materials linked to this
podcast and any associated videocontent are at the user's own risk.
The content on the show is not intendedto be a substitute for professional
medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
Users should not disregard ordelay obtaining medical help for
(00:50):
any medical condition they have.
Or that their children may have,they should seek the assistance
of their healthcare professionalsfor any such conditions.
Nothing stated here reflectsthe views of our employers or
the employees of our guests.
Enjoy the show.
Here we go.
Welcome back to another episodeof the Sleep Edit Podcast, episode
(01:14):
13, another mailbag episode.
I'm Dr. Craig Canapari
,And I am Arielle Greenleaf.
and we are here to help tiredparents and kids sleep better.
I always enjoy these mailbag episodes'cause sometimes these are tough
situations the parents are facing.
It is always a tough situationwhen it comes to sleep.
I mean, if you're notsleeping, everything's tough.
(01:36):
Arielle, I, I guess there's a coupleof ways that people send these to us.
Some are through our emailaddress for the podcast, which is
the sleep edit show@gmail.com,
one day I'll be able to remember that.
actually, I need to apologize to people.
I need to check it more frequently.
There was a message from someone that wasnine days old, so I apologize for that.
(01:58):
I will check it more frequently.
Yeah, and if you have signedup for my email list, I often
send that out there to you.
So let's, we have a looseclustering of topics.
And the first questions wereactually we had two questions about
24, the concept of 24 hour sleep.
One from a sleep consultant whosays, I use this concept all the
(02:20):
time in my practice, but wouldlove to hear how you explain it.
And a parent wondering what it is 'causehe or she has seen parents refer to it.
Yeah, and I don't even know.
I feel like this is something You sleepdoctors don't really talk about, in
the same way as us sleep consultants.
(02:42):
Probably because you're solvingmore complicated issues than than
the things that we're working on.
You know, we're dealing withnormally developing children who
have difficulty with their scheduleor they're not sleeping correctly,
and just a few fixes will work.
One of the, actually, like one ofthe most critical pieces of what
I do is determining 24 hour sleep.
(03:04):
And what I mean by that is that we allhave, I. Our own set of sleep needs.
Craig, you may survive on sevenhours of sleep and I may need, se
I may need nine hours of sleep.
children are no different and asyou know, for , normally developing
children, there is a wide range ofwhat is recommended and or normal.
(03:27):
So if you're looking at an infant,there is a range between 12 and 16
hours of sleep in a 24 hour period.
That is a very wide gap, especiallyif you're stuck in the time, you're
in the frame of mind of wake windows.
So if your child ha only needs 12 hoursof sleep in a 24 hour period, that means
(03:48):
they need 12 hours of awake time duringthe day order to, enough sleep, drive to
fall asleep easily and take, a restorativenap or have a restorative night.
Likewise.
If a child needs 16 hours ofsleep in a 24 hour period, that's
only eight hours of awake time.
So those periods between sleepsare much smaller and shorter than
(04:13):
those who have lower sleep needs.
And just to clarify, those reallywide windows of normal sleep are in
infancy and they kind of narrow askids move through childhood though, if
you are, if your child is in the highend of normal, they're probably gonna
continue to be on the high end of normalthrough childhood and adolescence.
(04:34):
I feel like clinic, sleep clinic isfull of young kids that don't need a
lot of sleep and older kids that needa lot of that, that do need a lot of
sleep because if you, if your kid,
if your kid is in the high end ofnormal, say as an infant, they need,
it can be 18 or even 20 hours of sleep.
You feel like a parenting genius, right?
(04:54):
Your kid's gonna sleep no matter what.
They take long naps.
Whereas if your kid is in the lowend of normal you are really gonna be
struggling because it's not like you'regonna get a nice 12 hours in a row.
They're, they're not mature enoughto do that in early infancy.
So you're gonna have some fragmentationof sleep at night and naps are gonna
be very difficult to figure out.
Yeah.
(05:15):
And I think that's the tricky part.
And that's the magic of sleep consultingis that if you're working with a good
sleep consultant, going to look veryclosely at your child's sleep logs.
And first, the first thing iswe determine, okay, how much
sleep is this child actuallygiving us in a 24 hour period?
And it's really, really surprising.
(05:35):
How quickly you can determine that.
A lot of the apps now are smartenough to show us trends, and we
can see trends at seven, in the pastweek, 14 days, 30 days, 90 days.
And it's really wild howconsistent children are.
the problem arises when sleepisn't distributed appropriately.
(05:58):
And so someone may have a childsleeping four hours during the day,
but then struggling to fall asleepat night and then only sleeping
eight or nine hours overnight.
and they're like, whyis this so difficult?
Well, because your child'ssleeping too much during the day.
We need to redistribute that to thenighttime hours, which means, probably
(06:19):
widening those wake windows so that thechild is getting enough sleep drive.
But also we're pushing some of thatsleep into the overnight hours.
It's really like an.
It's almost like a math problem, honestly.
It's
Sure.
let's figure this out.
And I'd love to include in the shownotes just some examples of what this
(06:43):
looks like from a sleep data perspective.
I have had a lot of children onthe lower end of the spectrum
in the last six months.
So when I say lower end, I wouldsay, you know, like a four month
old that only needs 13 hoursof sleep in a 24 hour period.
If you look at those wake windowsthat everyone's programmed to
look at four months, they'relike, oh, two hour wake windows.
(07:05):
For little Johnny that's notenough because he's only giving
us 13 hours in a 24 hour period.
So how are we, making sure he's gettingrestorative sleep during the day, but
also getting restorative sleep overnight.
And that's the nuance there.
And those windows can be different.
The dis, you know, dispersing themcan be different because some children
(07:28):
need a longer wake time in themorning or a shorter wake time in
the morning and vice versa at night.
that's where I think the ma, themagic of Sleep consulting comes in.
We do help to determine the 24 hoursleep needs distributed appropriately,
and that's very, very nuanced.
As you know, sleep is very nuanced,so it's not something that I can
say, well, if your child needs 14hours of sleep, this is what their
(07:50):
schedule should be, because itcould be very different from another
child that needs 14 hours of sleep.
So 24 hours sleep.
It's just the amount of time thata child is gonna sleep in 24 hours.
And this is gonna be fairlyconsistent if child's a good sleeper.
Bad sleeper.
Bad sleeper, right?
Like, I don't like the term badsleeper, but that's how parents sleep.
sleep needs.
(08:10):
That's all it
the What apps do you likefor parents to track this?
Oh man, that's a really trickyquestion because the app that I like
to look at the most for data, I reallydislike the other parts of the app.
So I, I hate to speak aboutbrands, but I really like the
data I get from Huckleberry.
(08:32):
I do not like the idea of theirsweet spots because it doesn't
pick up the nuance of each child.
So it may suggest like a 10:00 PMbedtime, or something like that.
'cause it's using like an algorithm todetermine the schedule or the sweet spot.
But from like a data perspective, itreally shows me, it breaks it down.
(08:54):
Here's how much daytimesleep they've been getting.
Here's how much nighttimesleep they've been getting.
Here's the total amount ofsleep they've been getting.
They do it on a daily basis, a weeklybasis, biweekly, monthly, and 90
days, and it's extremely helpful.
So let's talk 'cause we're gonna getinto some now specific questions.
And I will say we do think aboutthis concept in sleep, doctor land.
Honestly, the most common example wehave is usually dealing, explaining to
(09:20):
teenagers why taking long naps in theafternoon is problematic for their sleep.
Yeah.
' cause I'll see kids whocome home from school.
They will sleep from like two in theafternoon till eight o'clock at night
and then be up till two in the morning
Right.
feel like garbage in the morning.
And that is like an inappropriatedistribution of sleep.
(09:41):
And that's an extreme example.
I mean, I don't
I,
it's that extreme because I thinkif you don't know, you don't know.
Like, so if you're a new parent and youjust don't know and you're letting your
baby sleep six hours during the day, andthen you're wondering why they're only
sleeping or nine hours overnight, I justthink that a lot there needs, it would be
helpful if there was more clear educationaround what you're talking about.
(10:05):
well let me ask you this.
How do you decide the distributionof nap time, mornings versus
afternoons in an infant?
Is it based on what's worked for parents?
Because I feel like it's sort of likewith little babies, it's almost as
if parents are throwing everything inthe wall and just seeing what sticks.
Right?
Well, I feel like there's alot of factors that go into it.
(10:26):
Unfortunately.
I wish it was like so simple okay.
Say there's a child thatneeds, it's, this is tricky.
Say I determine that a child can only dowell with two and a half hours of sleep.
During the day, and then maybethey're giving us 11 hours
(10:47):
overnight or something like that.
They give us 13 and a halfhours total during the day.
What I like to do is
13 and a half hours ofwakefulness during the day.
No, if they only need 13, ifthey need 13 and a half hours
of sleep in a 24 hour period.
So they're giving us 11 hours overnightand two and a half during the day.
(11:07):
I generally like to make that morningnap around an hour then push the
afternoon nap to an hour and a half sothat we're pushing bedtime out a little
bit later so that the 11 o'clock isn't,the 11 hours isn't putting down at six
and going to bed or waking up at five.
We wanna make sure we're gettingto a normal wake up time for child.
(11:32):
So I'm trying to think there was.
So there was someone recentlywhere the child only sleeps 10
hours overnight no matter what.
They just will onlysleep 10 hours overnight.
If you know that.
And you're trying to put them tobed at like seven and wondering
(11:54):
why they're waking at five, well,you know, that's, we've gotta
shift bedtime a little bit later.
And parents are often scared to do thatit goes against what normal wake windows
and it can be scary because they'reafraid that child's gonna be overtired.
But I've never had 24 hour sleepdistribution backfire on me ever.
(12:19):
In fact, parents are like, wow Iam amazed at what just happened.
So essentially the levers parents can.
Pull are when they put their kiddown for naps, when they put their
kids down for bedtime, I guessthe number of naps, of course.
Um, and you can shorten a nap.
No, no.
Parent is like, oh my God, haveto wake up my, like three month
(12:43):
old at 10 in the 10 in the morningso I can get them to school.
Right?
Like that's never aproblem that people have.
So I, I'm curious though, would yousay that the kids that you see who
have somewhat chaotic sleep patternsor that's how it feels to the parents
that actually their nighttime sleepdurations are relatively fixed and
what you're adjusting more is thetiming of their nighttime sleep window
(13:05):
and the timing of their naps, or,
So yeah, I think my goal isalways 10 to 12 hours overnight.
okay.
I don't know.
It may be anecdotal.
I don't know where I read that orif I read I feel like I read 10 to
12 hours is, a good goal to aim for.
It's I sound so silly right now.
(13:26):
I don't know where I read it, but it's be,it's always my goal to get 10 to 12 hours
and I've very rarely missed that goal.
Usually I can get at least 10hours out of a child overnight.
So Yes.
Then it's the
Even a, a young, an infant.
And of course we're talking about
yes,
may still be kids whoare waking up to feed.
It's not necessarily 10 uninterruptedhours in a young infant, but 10 hours
(13:50):
of pretty consistent sleep overnight.
Right, right.
And then for daytime, my goalis at least one hour for the
two nap, the first two naps.
The later it gets there, you know,the cat naps later in the day.
Those are harder to extend,but I aim for an hour.
For each of the first two naps.
(14:11):
Some children are givingme 2, 2, 2 hour naps.
It just depends on their sleep needs.
I have a child right now who is oneand she takes a two hour nap and sleeps
12 and a half to 13 hours overnight.
It's kind of crazy, but that's just,she's higher in sleep needs and and she
tends to, she tends to do better withan earlier bedtime and a longer night
(14:38):
Yeah.
pushing her a bit.
I think the flip side is, notto condescend to people who do
have higher sleep knee babies.
It can be difficult 'cause they do tendto do a lot of sleeping and if they're,
especially if it's a second or thirdkid and the family does not always have
the luxury of having the child haveas consistent as like your first kid.
(15:00):
As long as you have a parent athome, you have a fair amount of
discretion about the timing of things.
Even a nanny or a babysitter or something.
Yeah,
if the child is at home, it's much easierthan if they're at the day at daycare.
That
we should set your second kid.
Forget about it.
It's just that they're doing whateverthe first kid needs them to do.
So let's get into a couple of we justhave a couple of nap challenges here.
(15:22):
One is, I know whatyou're gonna say to this.
We just transition to one nap.
How long should I let that nap go?
I'm worried about it startingto disrupt bedtime and I know,
hold on, let's say it together.
It depends.
So why does it depend?
it depends on their sleep needs,
Honestly.
So the child has transitioned to one napand they're sleeping three hours during
(15:45):
the day, and then what used to be aseven 30 bedtime is now, an they're not
falling asleep till eight 30 or nine, thenclearly you're gonna have to curb down,
cut down some of that nap time sometimes.
So my goal for one nap is,an hour and a half minimum.
And then beyond that, some kidscan do two, two and a half.
(16:07):
I very rarely see a childable to take a three hour nap
and then have a decent night.
I
children do, but not I would say that'smore the exception than the norm.
honestly, those were my kids.
They could sleep from, theycould sleep from two to five
and be in bed by seven 30.
Five.
And then have a, like only beawake for two and a half hours.
Were they up at the butt crack?
(16:28):
My younger
Kid, yes.
But my older kid usedto take these epic naps.
He still is an early to bed kid.
yeah.
Mine is
He's probably on the highersleep needs spectrum.
But I think to the writer of this,it's gonna be obvious, right?
If you just track this a little bit,if your kid takes a long nap and night
bedtime's a disaster, you either need tomove bedtime later or shorten the nap.
(16:52):
Yeah, that's, I would say just trackthe sleep for about five to seven days.
Track how long the nap was, track,how long nighttime was, and then
like you're saying, I mean, I don'tknow that many parents that would
love to have like a 9:00 PM bedtime.
So if you want to have a decent bedtime,you're probably in a bedtime that
(17:16):
doesn't drag on, you're probably goingto have to cap the nap a little bit.
I think it's also important to mentionthat having a an intentional start to
the day is really important because ifsome days your child is sleeping until
seven and then other days you're wakingthem up at 10, that's gonna screw up.
Your entire schedule.
So having an intentional wake time,I mean, they say that for adults
(17:39):
too, who are struggling with sleep,have a regular schedule, even on the
weekends, don't, because otherwiseyou're, and then they're like the
baby isn't falling asleep till 11.
Well, yeah, because they woke up at 10.
You can't expect that.
Sure.
And honestly, that's.
For most of our families, that's notgonna be a problem they're gonna have,
(18:00):
but it will be a problem in older kids.
So yeah, I, I would say thatI maybe let the kid app nap
ad-lib, see how bedtime goes.
If you wanna adjust bed, if you have toadjust bedtime 30 minutes later, and that
works for you, it doesn't really matter.
But if it's if it's, you're have,you're seeing prolonged awakenings
in the middle of the night or areally delayed sleep onset, those are
(18:22):
the signs that the nap is too long.
And again, it's the idea of 24 hour sleep.
Are you taking sleep from thenighttime sleep period and
putting it during the day?
That's when it's a problem.
Yeah, it's interesting that you bring thatup too because I find that sometimes, well
a lot of times it's bedtime struggle, likesleep onset is just pushed way too far.
(18:42):
Sometimes children are waking up fortwo hours in the middle of the night
because they've gotten too much sleepduring the day or they're waking
up at three or four in the morning.
So again, it goes back to thatdistribution of 24 hours sleep.
So here's another one.
My two and a half year old is infull nap boycott mode at home.
It's been going on for almost two months.
(19:04):
He still naps at daycare forfour days a week, but refuses at
home often sobbing and screaming.
We had a new baby recentlyand changed daycares as well.
He's clearly exhausted.
What do we do?
And this is from Morgan.
oh Morgan, I'm so sorry.
That
Morgan.
lot, especially with a new baby.
Morgan.
(19:24):
We have some bad news for you.
Your child is giving up the nap and the
Yeah,
two and a two and a half is nota crazy age for that to happen.
it's not.
Es especially with the new baby at home.
The reason your child will nap indaycare is because you're not there.
Your child wants to spend time withyou, especially with the new baby
(19:45):
around, and they're kind of gettingready to give up the nap, right?
Like I would wager also on that ifthe child is napping at daycare,
bedtime is probably a little bitlater in a scenario like this.
I'd say with the new baby, it'simportant to spend some time
one-on-one with your child withoutthe baby, if it's at all possible.
(20:07):
Even if it's 20 or 30 minutes aday expecting that there'll be
some quiet time in the afternoon.
Kids don't go from not napping, fromnapping to not napping smoothly.
It's not one day they'relike, I feel great.
I'm not gonna be a jerkduring my usual nap time.
I mean, there tend to be a lot ofscreaming and crying during that
(20:27):
period when they sort of fall apart.
Yeah.
And I would say too if it's been goingon for that long, nap regressions,
I hate the term regression,but nap regressions do happen.
They can coincide with thingslike a new daycare or a new
baby or something developmental.
But what if it's beengoing on for two months?
(20:48):
That's tricky.
I agree.
I always recommend that one-on-one time,20, 30 minutes, quiet time instead of
force trying to force something that'sonly causing distress at this point.
I think the quiet time ismore restorative to them than
screaming there for however long.
(21:09):
Yes.
That's for everybody and Ithink it's important to note
Craig I'm sure you've seen this.
This information.
But there, the latest research aboutnaps out is actually out of UMass.
And what they're discovering is thatgive up naps based on brain development.
So when the part of their brain thatstore's memory is fully matured, they
(21:37):
are able to drop naps more easily.
And that can happen attwo and a half or five.
It just totally varies.
So I, we can look up that research,I can share that with everybody.
But it is interesting 'cause Ithink a lot of times parents are
just focused on that age again.
Oh, your kid will drop theirnap between three and five.
There's a variation.
(21:59):
Yeah, it's a huge variation.
Yeah, no, that's interesting.
I have not seen that.
But it makes sense.
So yeah, the struggle is real MorganI. Oh I'm always surprised about
how long kids are gonna nap indaycare, when they won't nap at home.
It's just, there's the social pressure.
If everybody else is doingit, you're gonna do it too.
(22:20):
and sometimes that causes a problembecause sometimes I had this client,
it was just a horrific situation wherethey were napping her at daycare.
She would then not fall asleeptill 10, 10 30 at night.
She was a complete mess.
And they requested that they not nap her.
(22:40):
And they were like no,we can't not nap her.
So we got the pediatrician involved.
The pediatrician was like, thisis not healthy for the child.
And they're still like, oh, well webelieve that children this age need a nap.
It's daycare is great.
We've talked about this before.
My daughter was in daycare from fourand a half months on, it's hard.
But it's.
Very tricky for some children whenit comes to sleep because either
(23:02):
they're napping when they shouldn't,or they're like dropping a nap
when they shouldn't, or I, but Ido agree there is like a pressure
'cause everybody else is sleeping.
They make the room dark,especially on one nap.
Yeah, nothing exciting is going on.
time, nothing's going on.
Plus they get a lot ofstimulation at daycare.
That's one
Yeah.
you may consider Morgan, and alot of parents don't realize this.
(23:25):
Children get a ton of stimulationat daycare, physical and cognitive.
And sometimes on the weekendswe're tired as parents.
They're not running around forfour hours before they try to nap.
Consider something likethat, see if that might help.
In some cases it does get
Yeah.
Fresh air is always good
You can put your kid in like agymnastics class or something, but
(23:47):
swimming
that being said, it is hard tomimic the degree of stimulation
you're gonna get in school.
It's just dealing with allthe kids and stuff like that.
Yeah, it'll get better about six months.
Okay.
Bedtime timing and adjustments.
As kids grow, how do you know whenit's time to shift to a later bedtime?
(24:08):
My toddler's bedtime is still early,but I've heard bedtime before.
9:00 PM is ideal.
What does the research say?
So, I guess let's start let's start.
How do you know when it's timeto shift to a later bedtime?
It's usually when your child can'tfall asleep at their previous bedtime.
And I'd say consistently, anybody'sassociated, anybody's entitled to a
(24:30):
bad night or sleep once in a while.
But if your bedtime was seven 30 andall of a sudden consistently, you
can, it's creeping a little bit later.
Creeping a little bit later, you hearyour child babbling, talking themselves,
playing in their room till late 30.
Maybe you want to move the start ofthe bedtime routine a little bit later.
I don't like.
I have no problem with babbling andplaying and falling asleep for an
(24:53):
Oh I,
If a child is like screaming, crying,or just completely fighting bedtime
for a long time, then I would sayyou probably wanna look at that.
You may also wanna look atthe daytime sleep again, like,
look at that 24 hour sleep.
Determine maybe we can shave a littletime off down here and push bedtime out
(25:15):
a little later, because children canstay awake longer as they get older.
yeah.
No, absolutely.
And I would say that I like kids to fallasleep within 30 minutes of lights out.
Even if they're playing, talking, etcetera, maybe they're talking or whatever,
but I feel like that can become aproblem pretty soon if they're in there
(25:36):
for an hour before they fall asleep.
Bedtime before 9:00 PM There'scertainly, there's nothing
magic about 9:00 PM per se.
There was a study out of Scotland about10 years ago that said if kids going
to bed before 9:00 PM actually hadbetter kindergarten preparedness, but
that the kids who went to bed later,we're talking about toddlers here.
9:00 PM is quite a late bedtimefor a toddler or a preschooler.
(26:00):
I know Ariel, you had sent me thismeta-analysis that I'm gonna put in
the show notes that showed that earlierbedtimes led to more sleep in kids.
This was a study looking at non-medicationinterventions in healthy children,
and they had about 15,000 childrenin this meta-analysis, which is a
combination of multiple studies.
In this particular study, they wereshowing that it was secondary school.
(26:25):
Mostly in the little elementaryschool, the earlier bedtimes were
more effective and not younger kids.
In the, in that meta-analysis,I know that you're a big fan
of early bedtimes for infants.
There was a study out of Penn Statethat was looking at infants age six to
24 weeks, and it found that bedtimesearly before 9:00 PM were associated
(26:45):
with 78 more minutes of sleep.
And the interesting thing I found aboutthe study actually was again, it's a
small study of 24 kids if with each hourearlier of sleep each, sorry, with each
moving a bedtime one hour earlier, thewait time was only 8.4 minutes earlier.
(27:07):
So it's not, this kind of getsinto it, it's not always as
linear as you want it to be.
If you have an early morning wakingkid, moving the bedtime later
doesn't necessarily help that much.
Yeah.
So this is why the, it dependsthing is such a huge thing.
And again, yes, I feel like I was waymore into early bedtimes for everyone in
(27:33):
the first part of my career this point.
I've really dug into this 24 hour sleep.
The notion of 24 hour sleep and.
It doesn't lie.
Like it it just is what it is.
And so some kids will sleep from sixto seven or six to six others, you
(27:56):
cannot put them down before eight.
Or they're just a mess.
They're up at five or four.
and you just have to, youhave to, it's so nuanced.
so nuanced.
Yeah, no, it is.
I will say most parents.
Again, you're probably not listening tothis if your kid sleep is perfect, right?
If your kid is struggling to fallasleep at night after the lights are
(28:19):
out and it's taking a long periodof time, sometimes a later bedtime
can be helpful, sometimes not.
I'd say usually trying shiftingthings 15 or 30 minutes later and
giving it at least three or fourdays is a reasonable thing to do.
If things are going great,you don't have to do anything.
And most parents, I would say, 'causemy, look, my kids are 17 and 14 now, it
(28:41):
wasn't hard to figure out when they shouldbe going to sleep, like outside of the
first year of life, which is challenging.
After that, for a long periods oftime, we had the same bedtime and
then they got older and they got alittle bit later and they got older.
Got a little bit later.
And it wasn't hard to figure out.
I feel like if you just pay attentionyou're not gonna miss something and your
(29:03):
kid's not all, your three year old'snot all of a sudden gonna start staying
up till 10 o'clock at night unless youchange something that you're doing.
Or if they're ready todrop their nap, especially
Yeah.
age, that's when I start to see that.
I mean, I see a lot of familieswhere we really are working a lot
on sleep hygiene, getting devicesoutta the bedrooms, et cetera.
(29:24):
That isn't the case.
Some parents really need to justgo through the basics of don't let
your kid watch TV to fall asleep.
Don't,
No iPads before bed.
Exactly.
Yeah
let's talk about night waking and feeding.
We had two questions aboutthis, which are pretty similar.
What's the best way to wean a night?
What night?
We need a toddler who stillwakes at night for a bottle.
(29:46):
I. This is from someone who'sready to make a change, but
not sure where to start.
And here's a more specific one from Pat.
My 18 month old goes down, drowsyaround 7:15 PM It wakes up around
three or four in the morningand won't settle without milk.
Any tips?
I dunno.
How do you like to address this?
think that, I think we've definitelytalked about this in past episodes.
(30:09):
The way to change it is to stop doing itthe, it's up to you to decide what, which
method you want to use with that, becausethere has to be some sort of behavioral
intervention there where either you'redoing a camping out method or you're
doing a check and console method, oryou're sitting with them and comforting
(30:29):
them, but not giving them a bottle.
There is no way to stop it withoutstopping it, and it's not gonna
be easy if a child is dependent onit, that's the way I look at it.
I don't know.
Yeah, I think that if it's one bottle,it's simpler than if it's two or three.
Certainly.
There's not a lot of sciencearound this, to be honest.
Your child likely is hungry if everynight for their entire life they've been
(30:50):
drinking a bottle of milk or formula,
with that.
I don't know.
I mean, it's a, it's a, it's,
and they're normally developing andtheir weight is okay, I don't know.
I don't think they need they
I don't think, I don't think theyneed it either, but it's like 24
hours sleep, you're getting a certainnumber of calories 24 hours a day.
If you're taking into some, look,two or three ounces of milk is
(31:11):
not a lot of calories, right?
If it's an eight ounce bottle,it is a lot of calories.
So I'd say if it's two or three ounces, Ijust swap it for water and, go for it and
recognize there's gonna be some fussing.
For a couple of days.
I don't think it'll be indefinitelyif your child is taking a significant,
a large bottle, six to eight ounces,maybe you wean it down a little bit.
(31:33):
Ferber talks about diluting it.
Honestly, it's just I've come aroundand maybe just going cold Turkey
on this sort of thing and just
totally agree.
rip off the bandaid.
Just stop it, offer them water.
In a week, you'll be done.
Yeah.
I think that, the slow weaning, it soundslike, it sounds gentler, but you're
going to be removing it regardless.
(31:54):
And so it's almost like you're prolonging.
That change because they're like, waita minute, you're giving me less and
less and less if you just take it away.
In so many cases, I have parentsthat stop it and they're so scared
about it and the child just getsthrough it in a night or two.
It's like way less for themthan it is for the parent.
(32:16):
There's so much anxiety around it.
Always talk to your pediatrician.
If your child has weight gainissues or any other health issue,
perhaps they might need a bottle.
In a normally developing toddlerwho's, toddlers don't eat great anyway.
I think Dr. Porto
No.
that,
they don't.
Always, if you're worried aboutit, talk to your pediatrician.
If they say there's no concern, thenyou're just gonna have to get rid of
(32:40):
the bottle in some way, shape, or form.
And that's really up to youwhich method you want to use.
Yeah.
If your child's growing normallyhave at it you probably know if
your child has growth problems.
And that's a different ball game.
So let's go, we have a bunch of questionsabout night wakings and or regressions.
Here, do you want to,do you wanna read one?
Sure.
(33:01):
Let me get in here.
Night, wakings and regressions.
Okay.
from Tired Mom, Becky, 4-year-oldused to sleep through the night, but
for the last seven months she's beenwaking two to six times a night.
She falls asleep on her ownand we've tried everything.
Rewards Bedtime Pass, even went toa sleep clinic, nothing's helped.
(33:23):
We're totally stuck.
Yeah, I'm this is a scenario where,I am maybe looking a little bit for
a medical issue, and I don't mean aterrible medical issue, but if she
snores, could she have sleep apnea?
Could she have IC limb movementsof sleep, which are associated
with Russell's leg syndrome?
If she's moving a lot during the night orcomplaining that her legs are bothering
(33:45):
her is her sleep opportunity too long?
This is another one.
If she's, if this kid has a 12 hoursleep opportunity and she's, if you
plot this out, she's sleeping for 10hours, I might shorten her time in bed.
But for kids for kids like this whereparents are doing everything right, she's
falling asleep independently, it soundslike they've got a good bedtime routine.
(34:06):
They're still waking up a lot.
The sleep duration is age appropriate.
I can see if you've been to a sleepclinic, you can consider a sleep test
and maybe shortening the time in bed.
I don't know what you would add to this.
I mean, always medical would be my firstquestion for this sort of situation.
I would also wanna knowif they're napping.
(34:27):
If they're napping, then obvi.
I would assume a sleep clinic wouldbe looking at that, but can't really
make assumptions about anything.
If they're napping, then I would probablybe recommending we drop that nap or at
least cap it to a very short amount oftime to see if that made a difference.
I also wonder what's being donewhen she wakes at that time.
Is mom or dad sleeping with her?
(34:49):
Or offering somethingis it a power struggle?
That.
is she waking up?
Wake up one, wake up, two, wake up threetill you take her back to your bed.
That's probably has abehavioral layer to it, but,
the other thing I think about Craig is,I just used this recently, thanks to you.
You know, if there's a sleepanxiety going on there, I just
(35:11):
used Huggy Puppy with somebody andit worked literally in one night.
We were having the verysimilar problem, child is.
Just under three.
And we used Huggy Puppy.
It turned into Huggy Bunny 'causethey didn't have a puppy on hand
and it's, it worked amazingly well.
He, the child was struggling,dad was, dad's a surgeon and
(35:32):
he was working late nights.
He was missing dad.
And bedtime was taking forever.
He'd wake multiple times andor wake at like three in the
morning and be awake till six.
we had tried everything.
We had dropped the nap, which madea good a difference initially.
But then this came back up.
We gave him Huggy Puppy and it wasincredible how quickly it worked.
(35:54):
Yeah, huggy Puppy just briefly is anintervention that was actually created
in an Israeli sleep doctor named AbbyAde for refugee children who had a lot
of, and experienced a lot of trauma.
And you give a child a stuffedanimal and you give them a script
that they have to this baby thisstuffed animal is very scared and
you need to comfort them at night.
And it just kind of works.
I'll put a link into theshow notes on how to do it.
(36:15):
But yeah, if there's a lot offear, that's a great suggestion.
You might also consider the bedtime pass.
That's
Looks like they did it.
Oh, did they?
Oh boy.
Yeah, that's why I feel like there's like,
yeah.
Bedtime pass
Can either they work or they don't.
Like some kids don't givetwo hoots about that.
Rewards are tricky to implement.
tricky.
(36:35):
Yeah, that's what I would do.
I'd look for the medical stuff.
Maybe shorten the time in bed.
And if there's fears, try that.
Hug the huggy puppy.
So listen, we got another one fromPat here who it's double dipping here.
Yeah.
My daughter
it?
You got it.
just turned four wakes betweenfour 30 and five in the morning and
refuses to stay in the room tillher hatch light turns green at six.
(36:56):
It's waking everyone up,including her baby brother.
We're trying a reward chartand rereading your book.
Oh, thank you, pat.
But we're exhausted help
I think it's similar questions.
Is she n is she napping?
Actually.
I,
the other thing is there's a new sibling
I, I have one actually, I findthat the sort of the hatch.
(37:19):
There are many products like this,they're nightlights that change
color when it's time to get up.
I,
And this is based on some workI'm blanking on the name of the
guy out in Nebraska, who's areally smart sleep psychologist.
I'm gonna put a, I'll put hisname in the show notes 'cause I'm
embarrassed that I can't remember.
His first name is Brett.
I, he invented this thing calledthe Morning, Brett Kuhn the
Morning Light Protocol whichis what this is all based on.
(37:41):
So I would say that if yourchild is waking between four 30.
Five and you have thehatch light set till six.
It's too long a wait foryour child to stay in bed.
And what you need to do ismake you need to rig this game.
It's a game, right?
You want the child wins the gameby waiting till the light turns
(38:03):
green and coming outta the room.
You need to rig the gameso that your child can win.
And a 4-year-old expect themto lay in bed for an hour and a
half is not a game they can win.
So I might start stayingthe hatch light to five 10.
And.
Offer a lot of positive attentionwhen she stays for that.
(38:23):
And then a week, move it to five 20,
Yep.
and then a week, move it to five30, and then just go slowly.
So the goalposts, she's buildingup this muscle of either sleeping
a little bit later or just beingable to spend some time in the room.
Obviously you don't wanna, you want toreward your child when they win the game.
(38:45):
And reward doesn't, you're probably notgonna wanna light off firecrackers or
anything like that at five in the morning.
Say, oh wow, what a good job you did.
I'm so proud of you.
Offer some positive attention.
I think that I do think that part of whatwe're missing here too is the schedule.
And it might be that this kid iswhat, why is this child waking up?
(39:05):
What is ha like, is shejust getting enough sleep?
Is she sleeping from seven tofive, which is 10 hours of sleep
and she needs a later bedtime?
That is one possibility.
Another could be is she's not reallyready to wake up, but she might hear
you getting up and feeding the babyand then you get up A sound machine
might be helpful in that scenario.
Like our,
a sound machine in the hallway.
(39:27):
yeah.
If it if the child already has onein their room, it can be helpful to
have it outside the room as well.
What are you offeringwhen they do wake up?
Are you like, and again, pat, I'm notcasting aspersions on your parenting.
Are you handing her an iPad when you'relike, just please be quiet for 30
more minutes or something like that.
I'm not saying that's 'cause it'ssomething that you do, but I had a lot
of parents do this and offer this sortof a sort of reinforcement that is
(39:52):
very powerful and not really desirable.
Like an i giving your kid an iPad atfive in the morning is like too good.
A reinforcement.
Here's some dopamine.
Yeah.
Too big a dopamine hit.
Yeah.
so those are the things Iwould try early morning.
Awakenings yourself.
Yeah,
(40:13):
Here, do you wanna read the next one?
yeah.
Alright.
Question.
My five-year-old daughter fallsasleep independently every night and
never gets out of bed, but she stillwakes frequently, especially after
illness calling for me from her room.
Sometimes she'll settle back after aquick check-in, but on rough nights
(40:34):
I end up sleeping with her briefly.
Is there a better wayto handle this phase?
is from, I think it's Carys.
Yeah, I think that's right.
Yeah, I think that, yeah, lying down withher is a very powerful reinforcement.
You mentioned illness, I'm assumingthat means just routine upper
respiratory infections and notsome other more serious illness.
(40:57):
I think that the key for thesesituations is to offer the minimum
you can do without, and getyour child to go back to sleep.
And it sounds like sometimes you've fallenin the habit of lying down with her,
which is it's tough 'cause that's a verypowerful reinforcement for night wakings.
That's one of the hardest because Ithink I find that, if they're sick,
(41:20):
you want to comfort and sometimesthat means, I just had a parent
recently whose had an ear infection.
She was like, and shesleep got even worse.
Like at three in the morningwe were watching pep a pig.
So like it was just totally fallen off.
can fall into that.
If you have one night sleeping withthem the next day, they might expect it.
(41:42):
It's just like real quick.
For whatever reason,that one is a tough one.
I mean, bedtime pass might work wellhere, and I'll put in a link in the
show notes, but it's like a hall passfor seeing mom or dad during the night.
That might be a good one, agood thing to try as well.
Sometimes these are, wecall this a phase, right?
When your kid starts doing somethingannoying, let's highlight the positives.
(42:05):
Your child falls asleepindependently, never gets outta bed.
These are all good things, right?
So I don't think this iscatastrophic here, but it is
annoying because the fact is.
of Go ahead.
Sorry.
When your child wakes up for five minutesa night, you may be awake for 30 minutes.
That's what happens whenyou become a parent.
I think it's tricky because you'rejust, it's night wakings are the
(42:27):
hardest 'cause you're just, yourown sleep is so disturbed by it.
So I think that's the hardest placeto make a change in your own behavior.
Bedtime is easy because, well,easy because it's, you're awake.
Middle of the night and earlywakings are just so tricky because
you're tired and you just want togo back to sleep however you can.
(42:47):
Here's another one from a Anjo.
I think that, or Anyo.
Joe.
Our granddaughter startssleeping through the night, 10
months thanks to our podcast.
Yay.
Now, she sleeps from 7:00 PM to 5:00AM How can we gently encourage her to
sleep a little later in the morning?
Oh, well, you've listened to us so farit could be a matter of bed timing.
(43:10):
You may have to shift things a little bit.
You know what can happen sometimes isif a child's an early riser, 5:00 AM
often a caregiver will then put thechild down way too early for the first
nap, and then that sets the stage forthe rest of the day, which ends up.
You can't really push bedtime beyondseven because they're toast because
(43:32):
you've started like the naps reallyearly and then, the schedule is all off.
So shifting them for shifting that firstnap or sticking to the sort of good timing
of that first nap, can be really helpful.
It might not be easy in the beginningjust because they may be a little
tired when they're going down.
So that's one way I often helppeople with that sort of thing.
(43:56):
The other thing is you just, that's10 hours of sleep, they could be done,
or they're just an early riser, which
is a stinky thing for everybody, but.
Yeah, we've I'm sorry.
I'm just looking ahead.
There's something for our next question.
Yeah, I think that it's, itreally depends on the kid and
looking at 24 hour sleep needs.
(44:17):
It sounds like the baby's in sleepingthrough the night at 10 months.
I don't know if she's 10 months old now,or two years old or something like that.
I'm not sure either.
but I think earlier in thepodcast we did cover a lot of
different things to try here.
Yeah.
alright I'll ask this next one.
Sleep and anxiety.
Sleep anxiety and bedtime struggles.
Okay.
(44:38):
Our 7-year-old is very anxious.
At night, he asks us to sit outsidehis door until he falls asleep,
which can take over an hour.
He also wakes once or twice a weekfrom nightmares and comes to our bed.
How can we support his anxious mind whilealso helping him build more independence?
And this is from anonymous.
So this is something we talked about in anearlier episode with Dr. Danielle Garay.
(45:04):
I'm gonna link to that in the shownotes, but, anxiety is common and
separation anxiety specifically,which is what's going on here.
This is a 7-year-old, and I would saythat first of all, if there is any
history of trauma in your child's life,if they've experienced anything scary,
and sometimes trauma can be somethingthat's obvious we were in a horrible
(45:25):
car accident, or it could be somethingthat was very scary to the child.
That's something you wannawork with a therapist on.
If this is just really around bedtime,there's no trauma history, there's
definitely some stuff that you can try.
And I also will share apost about accommodations.
There's actually a wonderful book calledBreaking Free of Child Anxiety and OCD,
which I recommend all the time by EliLebowitz, who is a child study center
(45:49):
at Yale, who talks a lot about this.
But es essentially, accommodationsare things that we do to help smooth
our child's way through life, right?
So imagine you have a childand you make them lunch every
day to go to school, right?
That's an accommodation 'causethey need something to eat.
Now imagine that your child insists thatthey have to have the bread cut off in
(46:13):
a certain way and cut diagonally andthe peanut butter on top and the jelly
on the bottom, or they won't do it.
If you give into this every time,that's an inappropriate accommodation
because it's just sort of unreasonable.
And I'd say your child expecting youto wait 10 hours, or sorry, not 10
hours, your child expecting you towait an hour outside of the room is
(46:36):
really kind of unreasonable, right?
It's not practical for you,but you fall into this pattern.
So I think that this isa classic accommodation.
And really what you need to do isstart changing your own behavior.
And this is what Dr. Lebow,which talks about in his book
is parent management training.
(46:57):
You cannot change how your child feels.
You can change how you you respond to itand you can say, you know what, I can't
really stay outside of your room anymore.
I have some other thingsthat I need to do.
I will check on youperiodically and you are safe.
But we can't do this any, wecan't really do this anymore.
And you might wanna plan doingsome rehearsal with this.
(47:17):
Say we're gonna do a pretend bedtimeand we're gonna have you be in
your room without me outside of it.
And you're gonna pretend to go to sleepfor five minutes and even offer a reward.
Because if you're, let's say, isthis just at night or can your
child not be alone in their bedroom?
If they can't be alone in their bedroomat all then you might need to work on
(47:39):
that skill before you work on the skill offalling asleep, not being in the bedroom.
I think it's also important to notethat the child is going to their
bed least once or twice a week.
a really important piece of this.
Yeah, and the nightmares as well.
I mean, nightmares are, is yourchild truly having a horrible
(48:02):
dream or are they just anxious?
It can be hard to differentiate.
I do think, Craig, that episodein particular I refer to all
the time and especially thatdiscussion around accommodations.
I think it's hard for us to realize,step back and see what our behaviors are.
(48:24):
Instead, we're focused on thechild's behavior and how they're
acting versus what am I doing to.
Change that because the only way you'regoing to change things is, I think Dr.
Garay says this, the only way you're gonnachange that is to stop your behavior.
That is per, perpetuatingthat particular situation.
(48:47):
And that's not to place blame on parents.
No,
all do that.
all do this.
You,
We all make accommodationsfor our children.
It's I have a long post about this.
I'll write, but I think that really youneed to start changing your own behavior.
The fact is, nothing bad is gonna happento your child if you're not out there.
They may cry and they may comeoutta the room and be like, well,
you know, it's bedtime and Ican't I'm not doing this anymore.
(49:11):
I will check on you and, just,it's it may escalate a little bit.
It, I would say.
If this is not just the bedtime and it'shappening during the day as well, I might
see if you could work with a behaviorist,like a psychologist or a counselor if
this is permeating daytime as well.
If it's just around bedtime, this may besomething that you can manage on your own.
(49:34):
All right.
so here's another one.
This is a classic, what we call sleepOnset Association from Charlotte.
We built a great bedtime routine for our2-year-old, and she sleeps in her room
on a floor bed, her own room, but sheinsists on falling asleep while touching
us and wakes up at least twice a night.
We've been trying the progressive breaksmethod, but it's escalating her distress.
(49:55):
Full Mel meltdowns, do we stick withit or is it the wrong fit for her?
Do you wanna explain asleep onset association?
I kind of like.
Yeah, sure.
Sleep Onset Association is,essentially something you have
to have in order to fall asleep.
Some people that might be turning theTV on, for other children, for a child
it could be nursing to sleep or takinga bottle to fall asleep and not being
(50:17):
able to fall asleep and less doing that.
Oftentimes, children need tobe walked to sleep or they'll
only take a nap in the car.
They need to have that movement.
So in this case, it soundsas though Charlotte, oh no.
Charlotte is the mom.
The 2-year-old is requiringtouching in order to fall asleep.
And essentially what happens is ifthey require this at the start of
(50:41):
the night then they wake overnight,they don't yet have the skill to
not fall back asleep without that.
So then they require it again andit becomes this, that's essentially
Yeah.
the whole thing ofteaching independent sleep.
It sounds like things are going,they're pretty close to good sleep,
but this is the last piece ofit, that independent sleep piece.
(51:03):
This one is tricky because I feel like itreally depends on the child's temperament.
In some cases, the progressivechecks, like I find that children
need quicker check-ins 'causethey escalate too quickly.
Other children need check-ins thatare much farther apart, because they
(51:26):
don't even get the time to just likebreathe and take care of themselves.
But I think at two, you couldeasily do something where you come
in and you say, okay, I'm goingto sit here for three minutes.
And you set a visual timer or atimer or something and leave some.
That's one idea, but it's notgonna work for all children.
'cause all children, theystill may fall asleep.
(51:48):
Yeah.
thing is camping out.
Camping out might be the best, thebetter method here, but saying, I will
sit with you, but I'm not, you cannottouch me and I will not be touching you.
Yeah, and if you're touchingme, I have to leave the.
I have to leave, right?
Like prog.
I would say that progressive breaksor progressive breaks is is what
(52:08):
it is let's say it lights out is ateight and your child falls asleep
at eight 30 and you typically laydown with them to fall asleep.
Then at eight 15 you leave for oneminute and you come back and then
the next night you leave for twominutes and come back, et cetera.
The challenge with this is ideally whenyou are coming, your break is short
enough that you can come back in theroom without your child freaking out.
(52:33):
Mm-hmm.
If they're if you are leaving the roomand that is triggering, a of a total
freakout, either the break is too long orit's not the right fit for them, right?
And usually that's a three and up kind ofintervention, but every kid is different.
I know this kid could betwo years and 11 months old.
Yeah.
It could be.
(52:53):
23 months.
It's hard to say, but I would say forthis particular technique it's probably,
it's probably not the right fit.
I'd say if you tried this for aday or two, I might give it a week.
But if you've been crying for weeksand they're still, she's still
crying and crying it's too long.
You,
Yeah.
this, progressive breaks really shouldbe, you leave the room, you come back,
(53:15):
they're still calm in, they're bed.
I'd say in the beginnings they can bepretty upset, but there are children who
are like extremely distressed by that.
And it almost gets them, like, worksthem into a lather that they cannot
soothe themselves no matter what.
So that's why it's a temperamentalthing, but I think in this case, a
camping out method with clear boundariesaround it, where I'm not gonna sit with
(53:36):
you all night and you can't touch me,and if you do touch me, I'm leaving.
Maybe it's a timer of I'm staying untilX or I'll stay until you fall asleep.
But if I, if you wake up in the night,I'm only staying here for three minutes.
Something like that.
Yeah.
That might be a better fit for this child.
Yeah, it's tough.
I'd say on the flip side is she'sgot a great red time routine.
She's waking up twice a night and Idon't know, at least twice a night.
(53:59):
Yeah.
I think at some point you're just gonnahave to break the sleep onset association.
I've heard this a lot.
Parent kids wanna play with her kids.
Sorry.
hair.
play with their parents' hair?
Yeah.
It's like a sensory thing.
All right.
This last question Ifound very interesting.
This was sent to me on Instagramand I feel like this is a good
(54:21):
one for you I could answer it too.
I was only seven in 1988 though,
I was in high school.
oh, there we go.
Okay, so the, this question is aboutcultural shift and sleep philosophy.
So I was born in 1988 and my mom,friends and I were talking, why
does it feel like our parents hadsuch an easier time with baby sleep?
No white noise, no wakewindows, no elaborate routines.
(54:44):
They just said they say, we just slept.
Are they misremembering or hasparenting really changed that much?
Wow.
There's a lot.
I think there's a couple of factors here.
First of all,
the further back you go, themore likely it was to have
one parent at home full time.
(55:05):
Usually the mom, not necessarily, buttypically, and that doesn't make, that
doesn't make things easier in this domain.
I also feel like there was notnearly, as, my parents were
just not that precious about.
Any of this stuff.
Like you expected to go tobed and wake up, wake up in
the morning and not bug them.
And one thing that I think was very clear,'cause I was born in the seventies, my
(55:31):
parents, I love my parents, they're great,but like my parents were not my friends.
And they, I would say that theywere softies by the standards of
their time, but still that waslike compared to parents today.
It was a different time.
Like they they certainlydid not fret that look.
Let me give an example.
(55:51):
When I was studying for my sleep medicineboards, I was reading about restless leg
syndrome, which is a condition where yourlegs feel like they need to move at night.
And they said, oh, children with thisoften say that they kids feel, say they
have too much energy in their legs.
And I realized that's what Iwould say to my parents, and I'd
I still get it once in a while.
So I had a little bit of restlessleg syndrome, and my parents
(56:12):
did not worry about this at all.
They're like, okay, whatever.
Go back to sleep.
And even by bad insomnia, they'd shI'd show up downstairs and they'd be
like, okay, you wanna watch some tv?
Or they'd be like, okay, go to bed now.
And they didn't, I didn't feellike their sense of self was
particularly tied up in what I did.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I don't know.
I do,
(56:34):
Well,
yeah.
have something to say because was born in1981 and I didn't sleep through the night
until I was four, and my parents were.
Beside themselves exhausted.
But they didn't, there wasno talk about any of this, so
Sure
know that.
And the doctor was like,oh, she's just a kid.
She'll grow out of it, blah, blah, blah.
(56:55):
And so my mom thinks it's ironicthat I am so focused on sleep.
She's like, I could have used youmillion years ago when you were a baby.
I think there's too much
you, you gonna travel back in and putArielle baby Arielle back to sleep,
Yeah.
Right.
end up a sleep consultant.
They also would've diagnosed me withsome sort of GI issue back then.
(57:18):
I'm not waiting until Iwas like 10 to do that.
'cause clearly my stomach was upset.
But, we didn't have, we didn't,again, we weren't focused.
They, people weren't focusedon that side of sort of stuff.
I do think, you're right, absolutelyright about parenting and schedules
parents at a parent at home,or a caregiver at home, always.
(57:40):
But also I find I'vetalked about this before.
I hate monitors.
I think monitors are like the worst.
sound monitor.
Okay.
Get it.
Usually parents can hear their child ifthey're really distressed from whatever.
Part of their room, they're, or,whatever part of the house they're in.
video monitors are a little much, andparents focus on a child just even moving
(58:03):
around in their sleep and they thinkthat their child is not getting good
restorative sleep and forget it whenit comes to these smart monitors that
give you all sorts of information thathonestly to me just caused more anxiety.
So I feel like, don't think it'snecessarily that children slept better.
I think it was less access toinformation and a different
(58:24):
community, a different society theway we, were raising children back
I, I will say for older kids, andthis is fairly clear, that older kids
are sleeping less than they were 20or 30 years ago, and this is likely
due to electronics and technology.
For younger kids, I don'tthink it's particularly
(58:46):
different, but I do think, yeah.
Culturally it is just, it is different.
I think the the, I think some ofit comes down to social media and
parents feeling like if things arenot perfect the often it's easy to
make fun of social media, right?
But so often what we're presented by whereit used to be more our friends in the
(59:07):
Facebook era, like what our friends wouldpresent, and now it's more like these very
sanitized images that we have of familylife from, like influencers and stuff
like that where everything is perfect.
And I think that it's this comparison thatparents often feel that everybody else
is doing it so much better than they are.
(59:28):
And of course, there's always beenthe phenomenon of keeping up with
the Joneses or, that guy's got anicer lawn than me or what have you.
But it's so accelerated now.
I would say that, I don't thinkas parents were any better or
worse than our parents were.
The culture was certainly different.
And that's okay, right?
My, my kids are very differentthan I was at their age.
(59:52):
And
we are different than our parents
yeah.
And it, and I think, believe me,when you are a grandparent, you're
gonna be like, oh, that was so easy.
Yeah,
Why are you having such a hard time?
When in reality that they probablystruggled and stressed about it too.
But you tend to onlyremember the good times,
Absolutely.
passage of time.
(01:00:12):
That's why parents have second,third, fourth children they
forget about the newborn
Yeah.
An oxytocin surge that makes youforget all the annoying stuff.
Otherwise, everybody wouldjust have one baby and they
Right.
even rates would die out.
Yeah,
Great.
but yeah, I think you're doing great.
Don't listen to all theall the all the boomers,
Yeah.
(01:00:33):
have their own set of issues.
So okay.
That's all the questions we have.
Thanks for listening, guys.
You can find me at Dr. Craig Canaparicom and at Dr Canapari on social media.
Arielle, I know has some new handles.
I do.
I have my new website is at is expectto sleep.com and that's with two t's
(01:00:53):
in the middle and my new handle isexpect to sleep again on Instagram.
Okay, thanks for listening.
And please share with your friends.
It does make a big difference.
Bye-bye.
Bye.
Thanks.
Bye.
(01:01:14):
Thanks so much forlistening to the Sleep edit.
You can find transcripts atthe web address Sleeped show.
You can also find video of theepisodes at that address as
well as in my YouTube channel.
You can find me at Dr. Craigcanna perry.com and on all social
media at D-R-C-A-N-A-P-A-R-I.
(01:01:35):
You can find Ariel atInstagram at Ariel Greenleaf.
That's A-R-I-E-L-L-E-G-R-E-E.
N-L-E-A-F.
If you like the flavor of the advicehere, please check out my book.
It's Never Too Late to Sleep.
Train the low stress way to high qualitysleep for babies, kids, and parents.
(01:01:56):
It's available whereverfine books are sold.
If you found this useful, pleasesubscribe at Spotify or Apple Podcast
and share it with your friends.
It really helps as we're tryingto get the show off the ground.
Thanks.
Welcome to the Sleep Edit, apodcast devoted to helping tired
kids and parents sleep better.
We focus on actionable evidence-basedsleep advice, so everyone in your
home can sleep through the night.
Now, a quick disclaimer, this podcastis for general informational purposes
only and does not constitute thepractice of medicine, nursing, or
other professional healthcare services,including the giving of medical advice.
(00:27):
No doctor patient relationship is formed.
The use of this information andthe materials linked to this
podcast and any associated videocontent are at the user's own risk.
The content on the show is not intendedto be a substitute for professional
medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
Users should not disregard ordelay obtaining medical help for
(00:50):
any medical condition they have.
Or that their children may have,they should seek the assistance
of their healthcare professionalsfor any such conditions.
Nothing stated here reflectsthe views of our employers or
the employees of our guests.
Enjoy the show.
Here we go.
Welcome back to another episodeof the Sleep Edit Podcast, episode
(01:14):
13, another mailbag episode.
I'm Dr. Craig Canapari
,And I am Arielle Greenleaf.
and we are here to help tiredparents and kids sleep better.
I always enjoy these mailbag episodes'cause sometimes these are tough
situations the parents are facing.
It is always a tough situationwhen it comes to sleep.
I mean, if you're notsleeping, everything's tough.
(01:36):
Arielle, I, I guess there's a coupleof ways that people send these to us.
Some are through our emailaddress for the podcast, which is
the sleep edit show@gmail.com,
one day I'll be able to remember that.
actually, I need to apologize to people.
I need to check it more frequently.
There was a message from someone that wasnine days old, so I apologize for that.
(01:58):
I will check it more frequently.
Yeah, and if you have signedup for my email list, I often
send that out there to you.
So let's, we have a looseclustering of topics.
And the first questions wereactually we had two questions about
24, the concept of 24 hour sleep.
One from a sleep consultant whosays, I use this concept all the
(02:20):
time in my practice, but wouldlove to hear how you explain it.
And a parent wondering what it is 'causehe or she has seen parents refer to it.
Yeah, and I don't even know.
I feel like this is something You sleepdoctors don't really talk about, in
the same way as us sleep consultants.
(02:42):
Probably because you're solvingmore complicated issues than than
the things that we're working on.
You know, we're dealing withnormally developing children who
have difficulty with their scheduleor they're not sleeping correctly,
and just a few fixes will work.
One of the, actually, like one ofthe most critical pieces of what
I do is determining 24 hour sleep.
(03:04):
And what I mean by that is that we allhave, I. Our own set of sleep needs.
Craig, you may survive on sevenhours of sleep and I may need, se
I may need nine hours of sleep.
children are no different and asyou know, for , normally developing
children, there is a wide range ofwhat is recommended and or normal.
(03:27):
So if you're looking at an infant,there is a range between 12 and 16
hours of sleep in a 24 hour period.
That is a very wide gap, especiallyif you're stuck in the time, you're
in the frame of mind of wake windows.
So if your child ha only needs 12 hoursof sleep in a 24 hour period, that means
(03:48):
they need 12 hours of awake time duringthe day order to, enough sleep, drive to
fall asleep easily and take, a restorativenap or have a restorative night.
Likewise.
If a child needs 16 hours ofsleep in a 24 hour period, that's
only eight hours of awake time.
So those periods between sleepsare much smaller and shorter than
(04:13):
those who have lower sleep needs.
And just to clarify, those reallywide windows of normal sleep are in
infancy and they kind of narrow askids move through childhood though, if
you are, if your child is in the highend of normal, they're probably gonna
continue to be on the high end of normalthrough childhood and adolescence.
(04:34):
I feel like clinic, sleep clinic isfull of young kids that don't need a
lot of sleep and older kids that needa lot of that, that do need a lot of
sleep because if you, if your kid,
if your kid is in the high end ofnormal, say as an infant, they need,
it can be 18 or even 20 hours of sleep.
You feel like a parenting genius, right?
(04:54):
Your kid's gonna sleep no matter what.
They take long naps.
Whereas if your kid is in the lowend of normal you are really gonna be
struggling because it's not like you'regonna get a nice 12 hours in a row.
They're, they're not mature enoughto do that in early infancy.
So you're gonna have some fragmentationof sleep at night and naps are gonna
be very difficult to figure out.
Yeah.
(05:15):
And I think that's the tricky part.
And that's the magic of sleep consultingis that if you're working with a good
sleep consultant, going to look veryclosely at your child's sleep logs.
And first, the first thing iswe determine, okay, how much
sleep is this child actuallygiving us in a 24 hour period?
And it's really, really surprising.
(05:35):
How quickly you can determine that.
A lot of the apps now are smartenough to show us trends, and we
can see trends at seven, in the pastweek, 14 days, 30 days, 90 days.
And it's really wild howconsistent children are.
the problem arises when sleepisn't distributed appropriately.
(05:58):
And so someone may have a childsleeping four hours during the day,
but then struggling to fall asleepat night and then only sleeping
eight or nine hours overnight.
and they're like, whyis this so difficult?
Well, because your child'ssleeping too much during the day.
We need to redistribute that to thenighttime hours, which means, probably
(06:19):
widening those wake windows so that thechild is getting enough sleep drive.
But also we're pushing some of thatsleep into the overnight hours.
It's really like an.
It's almost like a math problem, honestly.
It's
Sure.
let's figure this out.
And I'd love to include in the shownotes just some examples of what this
(06:43):
looks like from a sleep data perspective.
I have had a lot of children onthe lower end of the spectrum
in the last six months.
So when I say lower end, I wouldsay, you know, like a four month
old that only needs 13 hoursof sleep in a 24 hour period.
If you look at those wake windowsthat everyone's programmed to
look at four months, they'relike, oh, two hour wake windows.
(07:05):
For little Johnny that's notenough because he's only giving
us 13 hours in a 24 hour period.
So how are we, making sure he's gettingrestorative sleep during the day, but
also getting restorative sleep overnight.
And that's the nuance there.
And those windows can be different.
The dis, you know, dispersing themcan be different because some children
(07:28):
need a longer wake time in themorning or a shorter wake time in
the morning and vice versa at night.
that's where I think the ma, themagic of Sleep consulting comes in.
We do help to determine the 24 hoursleep needs distributed appropriately,
and that's very, very nuanced.
As you know, sleep is very nuanced,so it's not something that I can
say, well, if your child needs 14hours of sleep, this is what their
(07:50):
schedule should be, because itcould be very different from another
child that needs 14 hours of sleep.
So 24 hours sleep.
It's just the amount of time thata child is gonna sleep in 24 hours.
And this is gonna be fairlyconsistent if child's a good sleeper.
Bad sleeper.
Bad sleeper, right?
Like, I don't like the term badsleeper, but that's how parents sleep.
sleep needs.
(08:10):
That's all it
the What apps do you likefor parents to track this?
Oh man, that's a really trickyquestion because the app that I like
to look at the most for data, I reallydislike the other parts of the app.
So I, I hate to speak aboutbrands, but I really like the
data I get from Huckleberry.
(08:32):
I do not like the idea of theirsweet spots because it doesn't
pick up the nuance of each child.
So it may suggest like a 10:00 PMbedtime, or something like that.
'cause it's using like an algorithm todetermine the schedule or the sweet spot.
But from like a data perspective, itreally shows me, it breaks it down.
(08:54):
Here's how much daytimesleep they've been getting.
Here's how much nighttimesleep they've been getting.
Here's the total amount ofsleep they've been getting.
They do it on a daily basis, a weeklybasis, biweekly, monthly, and 90
days, and it's extremely helpful.
So let's talk 'cause we're gonna getinto some now specific questions.
And I will say we do think aboutthis concept in sleep, doctor land.
Honestly, the most common example wehave is usually dealing, explaining to
(09:20):
teenagers why taking long naps in theafternoon is problematic for their sleep.
Yeah.
' cause I'll see kids whocome home from school.
They will sleep from like two in theafternoon till eight o'clock at night
and then be up till two in the morning
Right.
feel like garbage in the morning.
And that is like an inappropriatedistribution of sleep.
(09:41):
And that's an extreme example.
I mean, I don't
I,
it's that extreme because I thinkif you don't know, you don't know.
Like, so if you're a new parent and youjust don't know and you're letting your
baby sleep six hours during the day, andthen you're wondering why they're only
sleeping or nine hours overnight, I justthink that a lot there needs, it would be
helpful if there was more clear educationaround what you're talking about.
(10:05):
well let me ask you this.
How do you decide the distributionof nap time, mornings versus
afternoons in an infant?
Is it based on what's worked for parents?
Because I feel like it's sort of likewith little babies, it's almost as
if parents are throwing everything inthe wall and just seeing what sticks.
Right?
Well, I feel like there's alot of factors that go into it.
(10:26):
Unfortunately.
I wish it was like so simple okay.
Say there's a child thatneeds, it's, this is tricky.
Say I determine that a child can only dowell with two and a half hours of sleep.
During the day, and then maybethey're giving us 11 hours
(10:47):
overnight or something like that.
They give us 13 and a halfhours total during the day.
What I like to do is
13 and a half hours ofwakefulness during the day.
No, if they only need 13, ifthey need 13 and a half hours
of sleep in a 24 hour period.
So they're giving us 11 hours overnightand two and a half during the day.
(11:07):
I generally like to make that morningnap around an hour then push the
afternoon nap to an hour and a half sothat we're pushing bedtime out a little
bit later so that the 11 o'clock isn't,the 11 hours isn't putting down at six
and going to bed or waking up at five.
We wanna make sure we're gettingto a normal wake up time for child.
(11:32):
So I'm trying to think there was.
So there was someone recentlywhere the child only sleeps 10
hours overnight no matter what.
They just will onlysleep 10 hours overnight.
If you know that.
And you're trying to put them tobed at like seven and wondering
(11:54):
why they're waking at five, well,you know, that's, we've gotta
shift bedtime a little bit later.
And parents are often scared to do thatit goes against what normal wake windows
and it can be scary because they'reafraid that child's gonna be overtired.
But I've never had 24 hour sleepdistribution backfire on me ever.
(12:19):
In fact, parents are like, wow Iam amazed at what just happened.
So essentially the levers parents can.
Pull are when they put their kiddown for naps, when they put their
kids down for bedtime, I guessthe number of naps, of course.
Um, and you can shorten a nap.
No, no.
Parent is like, oh my God, haveto wake up my, like three month
(12:43):
old at 10 in the 10 in the morningso I can get them to school.
Right?
Like that's never aproblem that people have.
So I, I'm curious though, would yousay that the kids that you see who
have somewhat chaotic sleep patternsor that's how it feels to the parents
that actually their nighttime sleepdurations are relatively fixed and
what you're adjusting more is thetiming of their nighttime sleep window
(13:05):
and the timing of their naps, or,
So yeah, I think my goal isalways 10 to 12 hours overnight.
okay.
I don't know.
It may be anecdotal.
I don't know where I read that orif I read I feel like I read 10 to
12 hours is, a good goal to aim for.
It's I sound so silly right now.
(13:26):
I don't know where I read it, but it's be,it's always my goal to get 10 to 12 hours
and I've very rarely missed that goal.
Usually I can get at least 10hours out of a child overnight.
So Yes.
Then it's the
Even a, a young, an infant.
And of course we're talking about
yes,
may still be kids whoare waking up to feed.
It's not necessarily 10 uninterruptedhours in a young infant, but 10 hours
(13:50):
of pretty consistent sleep overnight.
Right, right.
And then for daytime, my goalis at least one hour for the
two nap, the first two naps.
The later it gets there, you know,the cat naps later in the day.
Those are harder to extend,but I aim for an hour.
For each of the first two naps.
(14:11):
Some children are givingme 2, 2, 2 hour naps.
It just depends on their sleep needs.
I have a child right now who is oneand she takes a two hour nap and sleeps
12 and a half to 13 hours overnight.
It's kind of crazy, but that's just,she's higher in sleep needs and and she
tends to, she tends to do better withan earlier bedtime and a longer night
(14:38):
Yeah.
pushing her a bit.
I think the flip side is, notto condescend to people who do
have higher sleep knee babies.
It can be difficult 'cause they do tendto do a lot of sleeping and if they're,
especially if it's a second or thirdkid and the family does not always have
the luxury of having the child haveas consistent as like your first kid.
(15:00):
As long as you have a parent athome, you have a fair amount of
discretion about the timing of things.
Even a nanny or a babysitter or something.
Yeah,
if the child is at home, it's much easierthan if they're at the day at daycare.
That
we should set your second kid.
Forget about it.
It's just that they're doing whateverthe first kid needs them to do.
So let's get into a couple of we justhave a couple of nap challenges here.
(15:22):
One is, I know whatyou're gonna say to this.
We just transition to one nap.
How long should I let that nap go?
I'm worried about it startingto disrupt bedtime and I know,
hold on, let's say it together.
It depends.
So why does it depend?
it depends on their sleep needs,
Honestly.
So the child has transitioned to one napand they're sleeping three hours during
(15:45):
the day, and then what used to be aseven 30 bedtime is now, an they're not
falling asleep till eight 30 or nine, thenclearly you're gonna have to curb down,
cut down some of that nap time sometimes.
So my goal for one nap is,an hour and a half minimum.
And then beyond that, some kidscan do two, two and a half.
(16:07):
I very rarely see a childable to take a three hour nap
and then have a decent night.
I
children do, but not I would say that'smore the exception than the norm.
honestly, those were my kids.
They could sleep from, theycould sleep from two to five
and be in bed by seven 30.
Five.
And then have a, like only beawake for two and a half hours.
Were they up at the butt crack?
(16:28):
My younger
Kid, yes.
But my older kid usedto take these epic naps.
He still is an early to bed kid.
yeah.
Mine is
He's probably on the highersleep needs spectrum.
But I think to the writer of this,it's gonna be obvious, right?
If you just track this a little bit,if your kid takes a long nap and night
bedtime's a disaster, you either need tomove bedtime later or shorten the nap.
(16:52):
Yeah, that's, I would say just trackthe sleep for about five to seven days.
Track how long the nap was, track,how long nighttime was, and then
like you're saying, I mean, I don'tknow that many parents that would
love to have like a 9:00 PM bedtime.
So if you want to have a decent bedtime,you're probably in a bedtime that
(17:16):
doesn't drag on, you're probably goingto have to cap the nap a little bit.
I think it's also important to mentionthat having a an intentional start to
the day is really important because ifsome days your child is sleeping until
seven and then other days you're wakingthem up at 10, that's gonna screw up.
Your entire schedule.
So having an intentional wake time,I mean, they say that for adults
(17:39):
too, who are struggling with sleep,have a regular schedule, even on the
weekends, don't, because otherwiseyou're, and then they're like the
baby isn't falling asleep till 11.
Well, yeah, because they woke up at 10.
You can't expect that.
Sure.
And honestly, that's.
For most of our families, that's notgonna be a problem they're gonna have,
(18:00):
but it will be a problem in older kids.
So yeah, I, I would say thatI maybe let the kid app nap
ad-lib, see how bedtime goes.
If you wanna adjust bed, if you have toadjust bedtime 30 minutes later, and that
works for you, it doesn't really matter.
But if it's if it's, you're have,you're seeing prolonged awakenings
in the middle of the night or areally delayed sleep onset, those are
(18:22):
the signs that the nap is too long.
And again, it's the idea of 24 hour sleep.
Are you taking sleep from thenighttime sleep period and
putting it during the day?
That's when it's a problem.
Yeah, it's interesting that you bring thatup too because I find that sometimes, well
a lot of times it's bedtime struggle, likesleep onset is just pushed way too far.
(18:42):
Sometimes children are waking up fortwo hours in the middle of the night
because they've gotten too much sleepduring the day or they're waking
up at three or four in the morning.
So again, it goes back to thatdistribution of 24 hours sleep.
So here's another one.
My two and a half year old is infull nap boycott mode at home.
It's been going on for almost two months.
(19:04):
He still naps at daycare forfour days a week, but refuses at
home often sobbing and screaming.
We had a new baby recentlyand changed daycares as well.
He's clearly exhausted.
What do we do?
And this is from Morgan.
oh Morgan, I'm so sorry.
That
Morgan.
lot, especially with a new baby.
Morgan.
(19:24):
We have some bad news for you.
Your child is giving up the nap and the
Yeah,
two and a two and a half is nota crazy age for that to happen.
it's not.
Es especially with the new baby at home.
The reason your child will nap indaycare is because you're not there.
Your child wants to spend time withyou, especially with the new baby
(19:45):
around, and they're kind of gettingready to give up the nap, right?
Like I would wager also on that ifthe child is napping at daycare,
bedtime is probably a little bitlater in a scenario like this.
I'd say with the new baby, it'simportant to spend some time
one-on-one with your child withoutthe baby, if it's at all possible.
(20:07):
Even if it's 20 or 30 minutes aday expecting that there'll be
some quiet time in the afternoon.
Kids don't go from not napping, fromnapping to not napping smoothly.
It's not one day they'relike, I feel great.
I'm not gonna be a jerkduring my usual nap time.
I mean, there tend to be a lot ofscreaming and crying during that
(20:27):
period when they sort of fall apart.
Yeah.
And I would say too if it's been goingon for that long, nap regressions,
I hate the term regression,but nap regressions do happen.
They can coincide with thingslike a new daycare or a new
baby or something developmental.
But what if it's beengoing on for two months?
(20:48):
That's tricky.
I agree.
I always recommend that one-on-one time,20, 30 minutes, quiet time instead of
force trying to force something that'sonly causing distress at this point.
I think the quiet time ismore restorative to them than
screaming there for however long.
(21:09):
Yes.
That's for everybody and Ithink it's important to note
Craig I'm sure you've seen this.
This information.
But there, the latest research aboutnaps out is actually out of UMass.
And what they're discovering is thatgive up naps based on brain development.
So when the part of their brain thatstore's memory is fully matured, they
(21:37):
are able to drop naps more easily.
And that can happen attwo and a half or five.
It just totally varies.
So I, we can look up that research,I can share that with everybody.
But it is interesting 'cause Ithink a lot of times parents are
just focused on that age again.
Oh, your kid will drop theirnap between three and five.
There's a variation.
(21:59):
Yeah, it's a huge variation.
Yeah, no, that's interesting.
I have not seen that.
But it makes sense.
So yeah, the struggle is real MorganI. Oh I'm always surprised about
how long kids are gonna nap indaycare, when they won't nap at home.
It's just, there's the social pressure.
If everybody else is doingit, you're gonna do it too.
(22:20):
and sometimes that causes a problembecause sometimes I had this client,
it was just a horrific situation wherethey were napping her at daycare.
She would then not fall asleeptill 10, 10 30 at night.
She was a complete mess.
And they requested that they not nap her.
(22:40):
And they were like no,we can't not nap her.
So we got the pediatrician involved.
The pediatrician was like, thisis not healthy for the child.
And they're still like, oh, well webelieve that children this age need a nap.
It's daycare is great.
We've talked about this before.
My daughter was in daycare from fourand a half months on, it's hard.
But it's.
Very tricky for some children whenit comes to sleep because either
(23:02):
they're napping when they shouldn't,or they're like dropping a nap
when they shouldn't, or I, but Ido agree there is like a pressure
'cause everybody else is sleeping.
They make the room dark,especially on one nap.
Yeah, nothing exciting is going on.
time, nothing's going on.
Plus they get a lot ofstimulation at daycare.
That's one
Yeah.
you may consider Morgan, and alot of parents don't realize this.
(23:25):
Children get a ton of stimulationat daycare, physical and cognitive.
And sometimes on the weekendswe're tired as parents.
They're not running around forfour hours before they try to nap.
Consider something likethat, see if that might help.
In some cases it does get
Yeah.
Fresh air is always good
You can put your kid in like agymnastics class or something, but
(23:47):
swimming
that being said, it is hard tomimic the degree of stimulation
you're gonna get in school.
It's just dealing with allthe kids and stuff like that.
Yeah, it'll get better about six months.
Okay.
Bedtime timing and adjustments.
As kids grow, how do you know whenit's time to shift to a later bedtime?
(24:08):
My toddler's bedtime is still early,but I've heard bedtime before.
9:00 PM is ideal.
What does the research say?
So, I guess let's start let's start.
How do you know when it's timeto shift to a later bedtime?
It's usually when your child can'tfall asleep at their previous bedtime.
And I'd say consistently, anybody'sassociated, anybody's entitled to a
(24:30):
bad night or sleep once in a while.
But if your bedtime was seven 30 andall of a sudden consistently, you
can, it's creeping a little bit later.
Creeping a little bit later, you hearyour child babbling, talking themselves,
playing in their room till late 30.
Maybe you want to move the start ofthe bedtime routine a little bit later.
I don't like.
I have no problem with babbling andplaying and falling asleep for an
(24:53):
Oh I,
If a child is like screaming, crying,or just completely fighting bedtime
for a long time, then I would sayyou probably wanna look at that.
You may also wanna look atthe daytime sleep again, like,
look at that 24 hour sleep.
Determine maybe we can shave a littletime off down here and push bedtime out
(25:15):
a little later, because children canstay awake longer as they get older.
yeah.
No, absolutely.
And I would say that I like kids to fallasleep within 30 minutes of lights out.
Even if they're playing, talking, etcetera, maybe they're talking or whatever,
but I feel like that can become aproblem pretty soon if they're in there
(25:36):
for an hour before they fall asleep.
Bedtime before 9:00 PM There'scertainly, there's nothing
magic about 9:00 PM per se.
There was a study out of Scotland about10 years ago that said if kids going
to bed before 9:00 PM actually hadbetter kindergarten preparedness, but
that the kids who went to bed later,we're talking about toddlers here.
9:00 PM is quite a late bedtimefor a toddler or a preschooler.
(26:00):
I know Ariel, you had sent me thismeta-analysis that I'm gonna put in
the show notes that showed that earlierbedtimes led to more sleep in kids.
This was a study looking at non-medicationinterventions in healthy children,
and they had about 15,000 childrenin this meta-analysis, which is a
combination of multiple studies.
In this particular study, they wereshowing that it was secondary school.
(26:25):
Mostly in the little elementaryschool, the earlier bedtimes were
more effective and not younger kids.
In the, in that meta-analysis,I know that you're a big fan
of early bedtimes for infants.
There was a study out of Penn Statethat was looking at infants age six to
24 weeks, and it found that bedtimesearly before 9:00 PM were associated
(26:45):
with 78 more minutes of sleep.
And the interesting thing I found aboutthe study actually was again, it's a
small study of 24 kids if with each hourearlier of sleep each, sorry, with each
moving a bedtime one hour earlier, thewait time was only 8.4 minutes earlier.
(27:07):
So it's not, this kind of getsinto it, it's not always as
linear as you want it to be.
If you have an early morning wakingkid, moving the bedtime later
doesn't necessarily help that much.
Yeah.
So this is why the, it dependsthing is such a huge thing.
And again, yes, I feel like I was waymore into early bedtimes for everyone in
(27:33):
the first part of my career this point.
I've really dug into this 24 hour sleep.
The notion of 24 hour sleep and.
It doesn't lie.
Like it it just is what it is.
And so some kids will sleep from sixto seven or six to six others, you
(27:56):
cannot put them down before eight.
Or they're just a mess.
They're up at five or four.
and you just have to, youhave to, it's so nuanced.
so nuanced.
Yeah, no, it is.
I will say most parents.
Again, you're probably not listening tothis if your kid sleep is perfect, right?
If your kid is struggling to fallasleep at night after the lights are
(28:19):
out and it's taking a long periodof time, sometimes a later bedtime
can be helpful, sometimes not.
I'd say usually trying shiftingthings 15 or 30 minutes later and
giving it at least three or fourdays is a reasonable thing to do.
If things are going great,you don't have to do anything.
And most parents, I would say, 'causemy, look, my kids are 17 and 14 now, it
(28:41):
wasn't hard to figure out when they shouldbe going to sleep, like outside of the
first year of life, which is challenging.
After that, for a long periods oftime, we had the same bedtime and
then they got older and they got alittle bit later and they got older.
Got a little bit later.
And it wasn't hard to figure out.
I feel like if you just pay attentionyou're not gonna miss something and your
(29:03):
kid's not all, your three year old'snot all of a sudden gonna start staying
up till 10 o'clock at night unless youchange something that you're doing.
Or if they're ready todrop their nap, especially
Yeah.
age, that's when I start to see that.
I mean, I see a lot of familieswhere we really are working a lot
on sleep hygiene, getting devicesoutta the bedrooms, et cetera.
(29:24):
That isn't the case.
Some parents really need to justgo through the basics of don't let
your kid watch TV to fall asleep.
Don't,
No iPads before bed.
Exactly.
Yeah
let's talk about night waking and feeding.
We had two questions aboutthis, which are pretty similar.
What's the best way to wean a night?
What night?
We need a toddler who stillwakes at night for a bottle.
(29:46):
I. This is from someone who'sready to make a change, but
not sure where to start.
And here's a more specific one from Pat.
My 18 month old goes down, drowsyaround 7:15 PM It wakes up around
three or four in the morningand won't settle without milk.
Any tips?
I dunno.
How do you like to address this?
think that, I think we've definitelytalked about this in past episodes.
(30:09):
The way to change it is to stop doing itthe, it's up to you to decide what, which
method you want to use with that, becausethere has to be some sort of behavioral
intervention there where either you'redoing a camping out method or you're
doing a check and console method, oryou're sitting with them and comforting
(30:29):
them, but not giving them a bottle.
There is no way to stop it withoutstopping it, and it's not gonna
be easy if a child is dependent onit, that's the way I look at it.
I don't know.
Yeah, I think that if it's one bottle,it's simpler than if it's two or three.
Certainly.
There's not a lot of sciencearound this, to be honest.
Your child likely is hungry if everynight for their entire life they've been
(30:50):
drinking a bottle of milk or formula,
with that.
I don't know.
I mean, it's a, it's a, it's,
and they're normally developing andtheir weight is okay, I don't know.
I don't think they need they
I don't think, I don't think theyneed it either, but it's like 24
hours sleep, you're getting a certainnumber of calories 24 hours a day.
If you're taking into some, look,two or three ounces of milk is
(31:11):
not a lot of calories, right?
If it's an eight ounce bottle,it is a lot of calories.
So I'd say if it's two or three ounces, Ijust swap it for water and, go for it and
recognize there's gonna be some fussing.
For a couple of days.
I don't think it'll be indefinitelyif your child is taking a significant,
a large bottle, six to eight ounces,maybe you wean it down a little bit.
(31:33):
Ferber talks about diluting it.
Honestly, it's just I've come aroundand maybe just going cold Turkey
on this sort of thing and just
totally agree.
rip off the bandaid.
Just stop it, offer them water.
In a week, you'll be done.
Yeah.
I think that, the slow weaning, it soundslike, it sounds gentler, but you're
going to be removing it regardless.
(31:54):
And so it's almost like you're prolonging.
That change because they're like, waita minute, you're giving me less and
less and less if you just take it away.
In so many cases, I have parentsthat stop it and they're so scared
about it and the child just getsthrough it in a night or two.
It's like way less for themthan it is for the parent.
(32:16):
There's so much anxiety around it.
Always talk to your pediatrician.
If your child has weight gainissues or any other health issue,
perhaps they might need a bottle.
In a normally developing toddlerwho's, toddlers don't eat great anyway.
I think Dr. Porto
No.
that,
they don't.
Always, if you're worried aboutit, talk to your pediatrician.
If they say there's no concern, thenyou're just gonna have to get rid of
(32:40):
the bottle in some way, shape, or form.
And that's really up to youwhich method you want to use.
Yeah.
If your child's growing normallyhave at it you probably know if
your child has growth problems.
And that's a different ball game.
So let's go, we have a bunch of questionsabout night wakings and or regressions.
Here, do you want to,do you wanna read one?
Sure.
(33:01):
Let me get in here.
Night, wakings and regressions.
Okay.
from Tired Mom, Becky, 4-year-oldused to sleep through the night, but
for the last seven months she's beenwaking two to six times a night.
She falls asleep on her ownand we've tried everything.
Rewards Bedtime Pass, even went toa sleep clinic, nothing's helped.
(33:23):
We're totally stuck.
Yeah, I'm this is a scenario where,I am maybe looking a little bit for
a medical issue, and I don't mean aterrible medical issue, but if she
snores, could she have sleep apnea?
Could she have IC limb movementsof sleep, which are associated
with Russell's leg syndrome?
If she's moving a lot during the night orcomplaining that her legs are bothering
(33:45):
her is her sleep opportunity too long?
This is another one.
If she's, if this kid has a 12 hoursleep opportunity and she's, if you
plot this out, she's sleeping for 10hours, I might shorten her time in bed.
But for kids for kids like this whereparents are doing everything right, she's
falling asleep independently, it soundslike they've got a good bedtime routine.
(34:06):
They're still waking up a lot.
The sleep duration is age appropriate.
I can see if you've been to a sleepclinic, you can consider a sleep test
and maybe shortening the time in bed.
I don't know what you would add to this.
I mean, always medical would be my firstquestion for this sort of situation.
I would also wanna knowif they're napping.
(34:27):
If they're napping, then obvi.
I would assume a sleep clinic wouldbe looking at that, but can't really
make assumptions about anything.
If they're napping, then I would probablybe recommending we drop that nap or at
least cap it to a very short amount oftime to see if that made a difference.
I also wonder what's being donewhen she wakes at that time.
Is mom or dad sleeping with her?
(34:49):
Or offering somethingis it a power struggle?
That.
is she waking up?
Wake up one, wake up, two, wake up threetill you take her back to your bed.
That's probably has abehavioral layer to it, but,
the other thing I think about Craig is,I just used this recently, thanks to you.
You know, if there's a sleepanxiety going on there, I just
(35:11):
used Huggy Puppy with somebody andit worked literally in one night.
We were having the verysimilar problem, child is.
Just under three.
And we used Huggy Puppy.
It turned into Huggy Bunny 'causethey didn't have a puppy on hand
and it's, it worked amazingly well.
He, the child was struggling,dad was, dad's a surgeon and
(35:32):
he was working late nights.
He was missing dad.
And bedtime was taking forever.
He'd wake multiple times andor wake at like three in the
morning and be awake till six.
we had tried everything.
We had dropped the nap, which madea good a difference initially.
But then this came back up.
We gave him Huggy Puppy and it wasincredible how quickly it worked.
(35:54):
Yeah, huggy Puppy just briefly is anintervention that was actually created
in an Israeli sleep doctor named AbbyAde for refugee children who had a lot
of, and experienced a lot of trauma.
And you give a child a stuffedanimal and you give them a script
that they have to this baby thisstuffed animal is very scared and
you need to comfort them at night.
And it just kind of works.
I'll put a link into theshow notes on how to do it.
(36:15):
But yeah, if there's a lot offear, that's a great suggestion.
You might also consider the bedtime pass.
That's
Looks like they did it.
Oh, did they?
Oh boy.
Yeah, that's why I feel like there's like,
yeah.
Bedtime pass
Can either they work or they don't.
Like some kids don't givetwo hoots about that.
Rewards are tricky to implement.
tricky.
(36:35):
Yeah, that's what I would do.
I'd look for the medical stuff.
Maybe shorten the time in bed.
And if there's fears, try that.
Hug the huggy puppy.
So listen, we got another one fromPat here who it's double dipping here.
Yeah.
My daughter
it?
You got it.
just turned four wakes betweenfour 30 and five in the morning and
refuses to stay in the room tillher hatch light turns green at six.
(36:56):
It's waking everyone up,including her baby brother.
We're trying a reward chartand rereading your book.
Oh, thank you, pat.
But we're exhausted help
I think it's similar questions.
Is she n is she napping?
Actually.
I,
the other thing is there's a new sibling
I, I have one actually, I findthat the sort of the hatch.
(37:19):
There are many products like this,they're nightlights that change
color when it's time to get up.
I,
And this is based on some workI'm blanking on the name of the
guy out in Nebraska, who's areally smart sleep psychologist.
I'm gonna put a, I'll put hisname in the show notes 'cause I'm
embarrassed that I can't remember.
His first name is Brett.
I, he invented this thing calledthe Morning, Brett Kuhn the
Morning Light Protocol whichis what this is all based on.
(37:41):
So I would say that if yourchild is waking between four 30.
Five and you have thehatch light set till six.
It's too long a wait foryour child to stay in bed.
And what you need to do ismake you need to rig this game.
It's a game, right?
You want the child wins the gameby waiting till the light turns
(38:03):
green and coming outta the room.
You need to rig the gameso that your child can win.
And a 4-year-old expect themto lay in bed for an hour and a
half is not a game they can win.
So I might start stayingthe hatch light to five 10.
And.
Offer a lot of positive attentionwhen she stays for that.
(38:23):
And then a week, move it to five 20,
Yep.
and then a week, move it to five30, and then just go slowly.
So the goalposts, she's buildingup this muscle of either sleeping
a little bit later or just beingable to spend some time in the room.
Obviously you don't wanna, you want toreward your child when they win the game.
(38:45):
And reward doesn't, you're probably notgonna wanna light off firecrackers or
anything like that at five in the morning.
Say, oh wow, what a good job you did.
I'm so proud of you.
Offer some positive attention.
I think that I do think that part of whatwe're missing here too is the schedule.
And it might be that this kid iswhat, why is this child waking up?
(39:05):
What is ha like, is shejust getting enough sleep?
Is she sleeping from seven tofive, which is 10 hours of sleep
and she needs a later bedtime?
That is one possibility.
Another could be is she's not reallyready to wake up, but she might hear
you getting up and feeding the babyand then you get up A sound machine
might be helpful in that scenario.
Like our,
a sound machine in the hallway.
(39:27):
yeah.
If it if the child already has onein their room, it can be helpful to
have it outside the room as well.
What are you offeringwhen they do wake up?
Are you like, and again, pat, I'm notcasting aspersions on your parenting.
Are you handing her an iPad when you'relike, just please be quiet for 30
more minutes or something like that.
I'm not saying that's 'cause it'ssomething that you do, but I had a lot
of parents do this and offer this sortof a sort of reinforcement that is
(39:52):
very powerful and not really desirable.
Like an i giving your kid an iPad atfive in the morning is like too good.
A reinforcement.
Here's some dopamine.
Yeah.
Too big a dopamine hit.
Yeah.
so those are the things Iwould try early morning.
Awakenings yourself.
Yeah,
(40:13):
Here, do you wanna read the next one?
yeah.
Alright.
Question.
My five-year-old daughter fallsasleep independently every night and
never gets out of bed, but she stillwakes frequently, especially after
illness calling for me from her room.
Sometimes she'll settle back after aquick check-in, but on rough nights
(40:34):
I end up sleeping with her briefly.
Is there a better wayto handle this phase?
is from, I think it's Carys.
Yeah, I think that's right.
Yeah, I think that, yeah, lying down withher is a very powerful reinforcement.
You mentioned illness, I'm assumingthat means just routine upper
respiratory infections and notsome other more serious illness.
(40:57):
I think that the key for thesesituations is to offer the minimum
you can do without, and getyour child to go back to sleep.
And it sounds like sometimes you've fallenin the habit of lying down with her,
which is it's tough 'cause that's a verypowerful reinforcement for night wakings.
That's one of the hardest because Ithink I find that, if they're sick,
(41:20):
you want to comfort and sometimesthat means, I just had a parent
recently whose had an ear infection.
She was like, and shesleep got even worse.
Like at three in the morningwe were watching pep a pig.
So like it was just totally fallen off.
can fall into that.
If you have one night sleeping withthem the next day, they might expect it.
(41:42):
It's just like real quick.
For whatever reason,that one is a tough one.
I mean, bedtime pass might work wellhere, and I'll put in a link in the
show notes, but it's like a hall passfor seeing mom or dad during the night.
That might be a good one, agood thing to try as well.
Sometimes these are, wecall this a phase, right?
When your kid starts doing somethingannoying, let's highlight the positives.
(42:05):
Your child falls asleepindependently, never gets outta bed.
These are all good things, right?
So I don't think this iscatastrophic here, but it is
annoying because the fact is.
of Go ahead.
Sorry.
When your child wakes up for five minutesa night, you may be awake for 30 minutes.
That's what happens whenyou become a parent.
I think it's tricky because you'rejust, it's night wakings are the
(42:27):
hardest 'cause you're just, yourown sleep is so disturbed by it.
So I think that's the hardest placeto make a change in your own behavior.
Bedtime is easy because, well,easy because it's, you're awake.
Middle of the night and earlywakings are just so tricky because
you're tired and you just want togo back to sleep however you can.
(42:47):
Here's another one from a Anjo.
I think that, or Anyo.
Joe.
Our granddaughter startssleeping through the night, 10
months thanks to our podcast.
Yay.
Now, she sleeps from 7:00 PM to 5:00AM How can we gently encourage her to
sleep a little later in the morning?
Oh, well, you've listened to us so farit could be a matter of bed timing.
(43:10):
You may have to shift things a little bit.
You know what can happen sometimes isif a child's an early riser, 5:00 AM
often a caregiver will then put thechild down way too early for the first
nap, and then that sets the stage forthe rest of the day, which ends up.
You can't really push bedtime beyondseven because they're toast because
(43:32):
you've started like the naps reallyearly and then, the schedule is all off.
So shifting them for shifting that firstnap or sticking to the sort of good timing
of that first nap, can be really helpful.
It might not be easy in the beginningjust because they may be a little
tired when they're going down.
So that's one way I often helppeople with that sort of thing.
(43:56):
The other thing is you just, that's10 hours of sleep, they could be done,
or they're just an early riser, which
is a stinky thing for everybody, but.
Yeah, we've I'm sorry.
I'm just looking ahead.
There's something for our next question.
Yeah, I think that it's, itreally depends on the kid and
looking at 24 hour sleep needs.
(44:17):
It sounds like the baby's in sleepingthrough the night at 10 months.
I don't know if she's 10 months old now,or two years old or something like that.
I'm not sure either.
but I think earlier in thepodcast we did cover a lot of
different things to try here.
Yeah.
alright I'll ask this next one.
Sleep and anxiety.
Sleep anxiety and bedtime struggles.
Okay.
(44:38):
Our 7-year-old is very anxious.
At night, he asks us to sit outsidehis door until he falls asleep,
which can take over an hour.
He also wakes once or twice a weekfrom nightmares and comes to our bed.
How can we support his anxious mind whilealso helping him build more independence?
And this is from anonymous.
So this is something we talked about in anearlier episode with Dr. Danielle Garay.
(45:04):
I'm gonna link to that in the shownotes, but, anxiety is common and
separation anxiety specifically,which is what's going on here.
This is a 7-year-old, and I would saythat first of all, if there is any
history of trauma in your child's life,if they've experienced anything scary,
and sometimes trauma can be somethingthat's obvious we were in a horrible
(45:25):
car accident, or it could be somethingthat was very scary to the child.
That's something you wannawork with a therapist on.
If this is just really around bedtime,there's no trauma history, there's
definitely some stuff that you can try.
And I also will share apost about accommodations.
There's actually a wonderful book calledBreaking Free of Child Anxiety and OCD,
which I recommend all the time by EliLebowitz, who is a child study center
(45:49):
at Yale, who talks a lot about this.
But es essentially, accommodationsare things that we do to help smooth
our child's way through life, right?
So imagine you have a childand you make them lunch every
day to go to school, right?
That's an accommodation 'causethey need something to eat.
Now imagine that your child insists thatthey have to have the bread cut off in
(46:13):
a certain way and cut diagonally andthe peanut butter on top and the jelly
on the bottom, or they won't do it.
If you give into this every time,that's an inappropriate accommodation
because it's just sort of unreasonable.
And I'd say your child expecting youto wait 10 hours, or sorry, not 10
hours, your child expecting you towait an hour outside of the room is
(46:36):
really kind of unreasonable, right?
It's not practical for you,but you fall into this pattern.
So I think that this isa classic accommodation.
And really what you need to do isstart changing your own behavior.
And this is what Dr. Lebow,which talks about in his book
is parent management training.
(46:57):
You cannot change how your child feels.
You can change how you you respond to itand you can say, you know what, I can't
really stay outside of your room anymore.
I have some other thingsthat I need to do.
I will check on youperiodically and you are safe.
But we can't do this any, wecan't really do this anymore.
And you might wanna plan doingsome rehearsal with this.
(47:17):
Say we're gonna do a pretend bedtimeand we're gonna have you be in
your room without me outside of it.
And you're gonna pretend to go to sleepfor five minutes and even offer a reward.
Because if you're, let's say, isthis just at night or can your
child not be alone in their bedroom?
If they can't be alone in their bedroomat all then you might need to work on
(47:39):
that skill before you work on the skill offalling asleep, not being in the bedroom.
I think it's also important to notethat the child is going to their
bed least once or twice a week.
a really important piece of this.
Yeah, and the nightmares as well.
I mean, nightmares are, is yourchild truly having a horrible
(48:02):
dream or are they just anxious?
It can be hard to differentiate.
I do think, Craig, that episodein particular I refer to all
the time and especially thatdiscussion around accommodations.
I think it's hard for us to realize,step back and see what our behaviors are.
(48:24):
Instead, we're focused on thechild's behavior and how they're
acting versus what am I doing to.
Change that because the only way you'regoing to change things is, I think Dr.
Garay says this, the only way you're gonnachange that is to stop your behavior.
That is per, perpetuatingthat particular situation.
(48:47):
And that's not to place blame on parents.
No,
all do that.
all do this.
You,
We all make accommodationsfor our children.
It's I have a long post about this.
I'll write, but I think that really youneed to start changing your own behavior.
The fact is, nothing bad is gonna happento your child if you're not out there.
They may cry and they may comeoutta the room and be like, well,
you know, it's bedtime and Ican't I'm not doing this anymore.
(49:11):
I will check on you and, just,it's it may escalate a little bit.
It, I would say.
If this is not just the bedtime and it'shappening during the day as well, I might
see if you could work with a behaviorist,like a psychologist or a counselor if
this is permeating daytime as well.
If it's just around bedtime, this may besomething that you can manage on your own.
(49:34):
All right.
so here's another one.
This is a classic, what we call sleepOnset Association from Charlotte.
We built a great bedtime routine for our2-year-old, and she sleeps in her room
on a floor bed, her own room, but sheinsists on falling asleep while touching
us and wakes up at least twice a night.
We've been trying the progressive breaksmethod, but it's escalating her distress.
(49:55):
Full Mel meltdowns, do we stick withit or is it the wrong fit for her?
Do you wanna explain asleep onset association?
I kind of like.
Yeah, sure.
Sleep Onset Association is,essentially something you have
to have in order to fall asleep.
Some people that might be turning theTV on, for other children, for a child
it could be nursing to sleep or takinga bottle to fall asleep and not being
(50:17):
able to fall asleep and less doing that.
Oftentimes, children need tobe walked to sleep or they'll
only take a nap in the car.
They need to have that movement.
So in this case, it soundsas though Charlotte, oh no.
Charlotte is the mom.
The 2-year-old is requiringtouching in order to fall asleep.
And essentially what happens is ifthey require this at the start of
(50:41):
the night then they wake overnight,they don't yet have the skill to
not fall back asleep without that.
So then they require it again andit becomes this, that's essentially
Yeah.
the whole thing ofteaching independent sleep.
It sounds like things are going,they're pretty close to good sleep,
but this is the last piece ofit, that independent sleep piece.
(51:03):
This one is tricky because I feel like itreally depends on the child's temperament.
In some cases, the progressivechecks, like I find that children
need quicker check-ins 'causethey escalate too quickly.
Other children need check-ins thatare much farther apart, because they
(51:26):
don't even get the time to just likebreathe and take care of themselves.
But I think at two, you couldeasily do something where you come
in and you say, okay, I'm goingto sit here for three minutes.
And you set a visual timer or atimer or something and leave some.
That's one idea, but it's notgonna work for all children.
'cause all children, theystill may fall asleep.
(51:48):
Yeah.
thing is camping out.
Camping out might be the best, thebetter method here, but saying, I will
sit with you, but I'm not, you cannottouch me and I will not be touching you.
Yeah, and if you're touchingme, I have to leave the.
I have to leave, right?
Like prog.
I would say that progressive breaksor progressive breaks is is what
(52:08):
it is let's say it lights out is ateight and your child falls asleep
at eight 30 and you typically laydown with them to fall asleep.
Then at eight 15 you leave for oneminute and you come back and then
the next night you leave for twominutes and come back, et cetera.
The challenge with this is ideally whenyou are coming, your break is short
enough that you can come back in theroom without your child freaking out.
(52:33):
Mm-hmm.
If they're if you are leaving the roomand that is triggering, a of a total
freakout, either the break is too long orit's not the right fit for them, right?
And usually that's a three and up kind ofintervention, but every kid is different.
I know this kid could betwo years and 11 months old.
Yeah.
It could be.
(52:53):
23 months.
It's hard to say, but I would say forthis particular technique it's probably,
it's probably not the right fit.
I'd say if you tried this for aday or two, I might give it a week.
But if you've been crying for weeksand they're still, she's still
crying and crying it's too long.
You,
Yeah.
this, progressive breaks really shouldbe, you leave the room, you come back,
(53:15):
they're still calm in, they're bed.
I'd say in the beginnings they can bepretty upset, but there are children who
are like extremely distressed by that.
And it almost gets them, like, worksthem into a lather that they cannot
soothe themselves no matter what.
So that's why it's a temperamentalthing, but I think in this case, a
camping out method with clear boundariesaround it, where I'm not gonna sit with
(53:36):
you all night and you can't touch me,and if you do touch me, I'm leaving.
Maybe it's a timer of I'm staying untilX or I'll stay until you fall asleep.
But if I, if you wake up in the night,I'm only staying here for three minutes.
Something like that.
Yeah.
That might be a better fit for this child.
Yeah, it's tough.
I'd say on the flip side is she'sgot a great red time routine.
She's waking up twice a night and Idon't know, at least twice a night.
(53:59):
Yeah.
I think at some point you're just gonnahave to break the sleep onset association.
I've heard this a lot.
Parent kids wanna play with her kids.
Sorry.
hair.
play with their parents' hair?
Yeah.
It's like a sensory thing.
All right.
This last question Ifound very interesting.
This was sent to me on Instagramand I feel like this is a good
(54:21):
one for you I could answer it too.
I was only seven in 1988 though,
I was in high school.
oh, there we go.
Okay, so the, this question is aboutcultural shift and sleep philosophy.
So I was born in 1988 and my mom,friends and I were talking, why
does it feel like our parents hadsuch an easier time with baby sleep?
No white noise, no wakewindows, no elaborate routines.
(54:44):
They just said they say, we just slept.
Are they misremembering or hasparenting really changed that much?
Wow.
There's a lot.
I think there's a couple of factors here.
First of all,
the further back you go, themore likely it was to have
one parent at home full time.
(55:05):
Usually the mom, not necessarily, buttypically, and that doesn't make, that
doesn't make things easier in this domain.
I also feel like there was notnearly, as, my parents were
just not that precious about.
Any of this stuff.
Like you expected to go tobed and wake up, wake up in
the morning and not bug them.
And one thing that I think was very clear,'cause I was born in the seventies, my
(55:31):
parents, I love my parents, they're great,but like my parents were not my friends.
And they, I would say that theywere softies by the standards of
their time, but still that waslike compared to parents today.
It was a different time.
Like they they certainlydid not fret that look.
Let me give an example.
(55:51):
When I was studying for my sleep medicineboards, I was reading about restless leg
syndrome, which is a condition where yourlegs feel like they need to move at night.
And they said, oh, children with thisoften say that they kids feel, say they
have too much energy in their legs.
And I realized that's what Iwould say to my parents, and I'd
I still get it once in a while.
So I had a little bit of restlessleg syndrome, and my parents
(56:12):
did not worry about this at all.
They're like, okay, whatever.
Go back to sleep.
And even by bad insomnia, they'd shI'd show up downstairs and they'd be
like, okay, you wanna watch some tv?
Or they'd be like, okay, go to bed now.
And they didn't, I didn't feellike their sense of self was
particularly tied up in what I did.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I don't know.
I do,
(56:34):
Well,
yeah.
have something to say because was born in1981 and I didn't sleep through the night
until I was four, and my parents were.
Beside themselves exhausted.
But they didn't, there wasno talk about any of this, so
Sure
know that.
And the doctor was like,oh, she's just a kid.
She'll grow out of it, blah, blah, blah.
(56:55):
And so my mom thinks it's ironicthat I am so focused on sleep.
She's like, I could have used youmillion years ago when you were a baby.
I think there's too much
you, you gonna travel back in and putArielle baby Arielle back to sleep,
Yeah.
Right.
end up a sleep consultant.
They also would've diagnosed me withsome sort of GI issue back then.
(57:18):
I'm not waiting until Iwas like 10 to do that.
'cause clearly my stomach was upset.
But, we didn't have, we didn't,again, we weren't focused.
They, people weren't focusedon that side of sort of stuff.
I do think, you're right, absolutelyright about parenting and schedules
parents at a parent at home,or a caregiver at home, always.
(57:40):
But also I find I'vetalked about this before.
I hate monitors.
I think monitors are like the worst.
sound monitor.
Okay.
Get it.
Usually parents can hear their child ifthey're really distressed from whatever.
Part of their room, they're, or,whatever part of the house they're in.
video monitors are a little much, andparents focus on a child just even moving
(58:03):
around in their sleep and they thinkthat their child is not getting good
restorative sleep and forget it whenit comes to these smart monitors that
give you all sorts of information thathonestly to me just caused more anxiety.
So I feel like, don't think it'snecessarily that children slept better.
I think it was less access toinformation and a different
(58:24):
community, a different society theway we, were raising children back
I, I will say for older kids, andthis is fairly clear, that older kids
are sleeping less than they were 20or 30 years ago, and this is likely
due to electronics and technology.
For younger kids, I don'tthink it's particularly
(58:46):
different, but I do think, yeah.
Culturally it is just, it is different.
I think the the, I think some ofit comes down to social media and
parents feeling like if things arenot perfect the often it's easy to
make fun of social media, right?
But so often what we're presented by whereit used to be more our friends in the
(59:07):
Facebook era, like what our friends wouldpresent, and now it's more like these very
sanitized images that we have of familylife from, like influencers and stuff
like that where everything is perfect.
And I think that it's this comparison thatparents often feel that everybody else
is doing it so much better than they are.
(59:28):
And of course, there's always beenthe phenomenon of keeping up with
the Joneses or, that guy's got anicer lawn than me or what have you.
But it's so accelerated now.
I would say that, I don't thinkas parents were any better or
worse than our parents were.
The culture was certainly different.
And that's okay, right?
My, my kids are very differentthan I was at their age.
(59:52):
And
we are different than our parents
yeah.
And it, and I think, believe me,when you are a grandparent, you're
gonna be like, oh, that was so easy.
Yeah,
Why are you having such a hard time?
When in reality that they probablystruggled and stressed about it too.
But you tend to onlyremember the good times,
Absolutely.
passage of time.
(01:00:12):
That's why parents have second,third, fourth children they
forget about the newborn
Yeah.
An oxytocin surge that makes youforget all the annoying stuff.
Otherwise, everybody wouldjust have one baby and they
Right.
even rates would die out.
Yeah,
Great.
but yeah, I think you're doing great.
Don't listen to all theall the all the boomers,
Yeah.
(01:00:33):
have their own set of issues.
So okay.
That's all the questions we have.
Thanks for listening, guys.
You can find me at Dr. Craig Canaparicom and at Dr Canapari on social media.
Arielle, I know has some new handles.
I do.
I have my new website is at is expectto sleep.com and that's with two t's
(01:00:53):
in the middle and my new handle isexpect to sleep again on Instagram.
Okay, thanks for listening.
And please share with your friends.
It does make a big difference.
Bye-bye.
Bye.
Thanks.
Bye.
(01:01:14):
Thanks so much forlistening to the Sleep edit.
You can find transcripts atthe web address Sleeped show.
You can also find video of theepisodes at that address as
well as in my YouTube channel.
You can find me at Dr. Craigcanna perry.com and on all social
media at D-R-C-A-N-A-P-A-R-I.
(01:01:35):
You can find Ariel atInstagram at Ariel Greenleaf.
That's A-R-I-E-L-L-E-G-R-E-E.
N-L-E-A-F.
If you like the flavor of the advicehere, please check out my book.
It's Never Too Late to Sleep.
Train the low stress way to high qualitysleep for babies, kids, and parents.
(01:01:56):
It's available whereverfine books are sold.
If you found this useful, pleasesubscribe at Spotify or Apple Podcast
and share it with your friends.
It really helps as we're tryingto get the show off the ground.
Thanks.
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