July 28, 2025 • 39 mins
Tips for Infants, Toddlers, and Teens In this episode of the Sleep Edit podcast, hosts Dr. Craig Canapari and Arielle Greenleaf provide evidence-based tips and strategies to help parents manage their children's sleep during the summer and back-to-school transitions. They discuss common issues such as later bedtimes, disrupted routines, increased screen time, and the impact of travel on sleep patterns.
- 00:00 Introduction and Disclaimer
- 01:09 Meet the Hosts
- 01:24 Summer Sleep Challenges
- 03:55 Pandemic Sleep Patterns
- 05:08 Structured Days Hypothesis
- 07:57 Managing Heat and Sleep
- 09:58 Travel and Sleep Tips for Infants and Toddlers
- 16:06 Vacation Sleep Realities
- 19:47 School-Age Sleep Strategies
- 20:50 Replicating Schedules for Special Needs Children
- 21:47 Bedtime Recommendations for Different Age Groups
- 23:07 Managing Screen Time During Summer
- 24:01 The Benefits of Summer Camps and Jobs
- 24:49 Camping as a Sleep Reset Tool
- 26:41 Traveling to Adjust Sleep Schedules
- 27:25 General Summer Sleep Tips for Parents
- 32:23 Adjusting Teen Sleep Schedules Before School Starts
- 37:38 Final Thoughts and Contact Information
Links
The Structured Days hypothesis
Study of 9-15 year olds showed that later shift was associated with poorer dietary cohoices
Resources (slides and references) from Dr. Canapari’s talk on Covid-19 and sleep
The Forbidden Zone and what it means for putting your kid down
Vacation “sleep”: How to get shuteye when on the move
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Welcome to the Sleep Edit, apodcast devoted to helping tired
kids and parents sleep better.
We focus on actionable evidence-basedsleep advice, so everyone in your
home can sleep through the night.
Now, a quick disclaimer, this podcastis for general informational purposes
only and does not constitute thepractice of medicine, nursing, or
(00:21):
other professional healthcare services,including the giving of medical advice.
No doctor patient relationship is formed.
The use of this information andthe materials linked to this
podcast and any associated videocontent are at the user's own risk.
The content on the show is not intendedto be a substitute for professional
(00:42):
medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
Users should not disregard ordelay obtaining medical help for
any medical condition they have.
Or that their children may have,they should seek the assistance
of their healthcare professionalsfor any such conditions.
Nothing stated here reflectsthe views of our employers or
the employees of our guests.
(01:03):
Enjoy the show.
Hey, welcome back tothe Sleep Edit podcast.
I'm Dr. Craig Canapari.
And I'm Arielle Greenleaf.
So this is the podcast wherewe talk about children sleep
sleep problems, sleep solutions.
(01:24):
Uh, And since we're taping lateJuly, we thought it'd be a good time
to talk about summer sleep issuesand back to school sleep issues.
Yes, and I, we here in thenortheast tend to go back much
later than the rest of the country.
So I know that there are children gettingready for back to school in the next
couple of weeks, which blows my mind.
(01:47):
Yeah, think a in the south, alot of kids go back early August,
maybe first or second week.
I think the reason is so that morekids are in air conditioning during the
hottest part of the summer, but not sure.
see it's like different for us here'cause our schools aren't air conditioned.
Yeah.
and the September can be pretty hot soyou know what it, it's funny because
(02:08):
in my world I see this a lot, butmostly indirectly because teenagers
will come to see me for other reasons,maybe sleep reasons or sometimes even,
'cause I'm also a pulmonologist forasthma, but I always ask about sleep and
teenagers will often say, oh, I'm going.
Bed at three or four in themorning and sleeping all day.
(02:30):
And you know, we, that cancause some significant issues,
which we're gonna get into.
and I think certain other populations tendto struggle too with with Uh, Specifically
autistic kids as well have a lot more.
Uh, Difficulty regulating theirbehaviors outside of the routines
that they have during the school year.
Um, What sort of stuff doyou see in the summertime?
(02:51):
It's, I feel like people, even ifthey're traveling just on weekends
or a week here, a week there, somepeople go away for the whole summer
for a month, and then they come back.
And even if they're not going to school,they're going to daycare or mom and dad
are back to work after being on vacation.
I definitely have an influx ofclients at the end of August
(03:11):
and through September because.
Everyone's just trying to getback into routine adjusting to the
environment, adjusting the schedule,waking up earlier to get to daycare.
I do find that people tend tostruggle as the summer wraps up.
Yeah.
And, And and this is not to saythat you need to be crazy in the
(03:32):
summertime and super vigilantabout your kids' Part of the fun of
being a parent in the summertime iskicking back a little bit and letting
things be a little bit more relaxed.
But I still think kids should you know,parents should, even with older kids
provide some guidance uh, around sleep.
And for younger kids too.
Keeping routines intact as much aspossible does tend to avoid that
(03:53):
sort of September difficulties.
I Well, you know, i've always beeninterested in this topic, but the pandemic
we, you know, where kids basically hada summer that was six or eight months
long, and what I what I mean by that is.
School closed, at least inthe United States in March.
And for many kids, either in thefall, they were going back to hybrid
(04:15):
programs like they did in our town orin many cities like New Haven where
I work, kids were outta school forthrough the first semester at least.
were the, here were the sleep changesthat we saw during the pandemic.
One was a drastic increase in screen time.
Two was a later shift of bedtimeand wake time across age groups.
Three was interestingly,more nighttime sleep.
(04:36):
Um, Four was less napping in young kids,and five was less sleep disturbance.
And this is not a perfect analogyto what we see in the summertime,
there's, there are some parallels.
When I was trying to understandthis, I came across a research
paper from 2017, which was actuallylooking at the increase in obesity
(04:57):
in kids during the summer months.
which is an interesting phenomenon.
We always think of the summertime,perhaps thinking back to, for me, the
eighties uh, summertime being muchmore active than the school year.
Um, But these they coined this ideacalled the structured days hypothesis,
and they said that during the school year,specifically the school week, kids had
(05:18):
structured wake times, they had compulsoryperiods of physical activity, right?
They had gym class, they hadrecess, they had restricted
screen time during the day, right?
Like no teacher , would sayoh , you're being annoying here.
Have an iPad for five hours.
And there are structured meal times.
Yeah.
And you know many children I see whostruggle with weight because weight
(05:39):
overlaps a lot with respiratory andsome sleep problems, their parents will
say their kids are hungry all the time.
One of my colleagues,Rachel Goldberg-Gell in the.
Obesity clinic always says to parents isyour kid snacking incessantly in school?
And the answer is no.
The teachers don't just say, oh,yeah, go to the closet and um, some
Takis or chocolate chip They're justlike, no they, they, the kids don't
(06:02):
even ask because it's not an option.
Whereas in the summertime uh, ifyou're at home, it's very easy to
go access snacks that aren't alwaysnutritionally and the authors say the
changes that happen in the summer area later shift in sleep and wake times
Yep.
more snacking and nutrition.
know, Say what you willabout school lunches.
(06:23):
I don't remember them beingsuper delicious, but there are at
least some baseline nutritionalstandards that they have to meet.
And a lot of research has shown that alater sleep time in children is associated
with an increase in body mass In obesity.
Uh, There's this one study that's veryinteresting that looked at kids in a
gifted program in Mississippi uh, over thesummer, kids nine to 15, and there were,
(06:45):
there was a group with early sleep periodsand a group with later sleep periods.
Um, And the early sleepperiod kids they're.
Sleep was from 9:40pm to 7:50am
.The The later group was 1:45 AM to 10:45 AM
What age group was this?
9 to 15.
Okay.
And the kids in the later sleepgroup were more likely to make
(07:08):
poor dietary choices, consume moresugary, caffeinated beverages, select
other foods like high nutritionaldensity, poor nutritional content.
So these changes in thesummertime can have a real
effect on our children's health.
Even if as a parent, the sleep is notcausing us problems, the kids aren't
waking us up, the kids being disruptive.
(07:30):
Letting your child have freereign in the summertime can have
significant health consequences.
Yeah.
And, And we were brainstormingthe, what are the sort of factors
that can affect sleep in the
Yeah.
I think for, you often are dealing withschool aged children and I'm mostly
dealing with infants and toddlersand certainly, one of the things I
saw, especially on social media thisyear was there was a huge, I know.
(07:57):
only saw the uk, therewas a huge heat wave and
there's
I was, I was
You were there.
and there's not a lot ofair conditioning over there.
And so keeping children cool, andespecially infants, which is essential
for SIDS prevention, protection.
And so keeping them cool is.
An important thing, but how do youkeep them cool if you don't even have
(08:19):
air conditioning, things like that.
it it is true in thecontext of climate change.
We take air conditioning for grantedin a lot of places in the States.
And in Europe that is not the case.
Two years ago we were in Rome andwe went to the Vatican, which is the
home to many priceless works of art.
And it is not climate controlled.
Uh, The Sistine Chapel is lightlyclimate controlled, but I asked,
(08:41):
I think it was probably about 80degrees in there when I went in.
Which is pretty remarkablewhen you think of there's
literally priceless works of art.
And they're like, be, will be.
they've survived this
long,
it, it is very clear that as theclimate warms, and especially in the
summertime, it has an effect on Andthat's a safety issue in young uh,
infants where we know elevated roomtemperatures are a SIDS risk factor.
(09:02):
right.
Do you have suggestionson how to help with that?
Fans obviously keeping, one of the thingsthat I always recommend is keeping the
shades drawn throughout the day so thatthe sun isn't coming through the windows
and, overheating the room even more.
and that, that's why so manyEuropean homes have shutters for that
(09:23):
right.
reason.
Fans I I think personally, if youlive in a really hot climate I I would
recommend getting a window air conditionerif it is all possible for your baby.
Um, You dress them very lightly.
probably, they can sleep just injust a onesie or even just a diaper.
Um, They don't need a blanket.
And really pay attention to if it's,if it's dangerously uh, maybe go to a
(09:43):
cooling center or to a friend's housewhere they have a cooler setting.
Uh, You might even decampto the basement to sleep.
Yeah.
but it's, it can be hard to mitigate.
For infants and toddlers, theirsituations are pretty similar.
Again.
Environment being in a differentplace, which some children are
great travelers, some are not.
(10:05):
Mine was in the latter category.
There are a lot of naps on the go.
So instead of being in a crib,they're, in a car or in a stroller
as people are on vacation.
People have to live their lives, right?
You can't expect people tohave three crib naps for their
infant if they're on vacation.
(10:25):
Those are some of the thingsthat I find the most challenging.
Also, being out, like you were talkingabout, being outta their typical routine.
You might have a party in the evening,and so bedtime may be a little bit later.
Some children, again, do well with that.
Some do not.
Either way, when you're getting back.
Even if your child isadjusted to a later bedtime.
(10:48):
coming back to get back on trackand that can cause some, difficulty
for some parents and families.
Yeah.
And I think when we go byages kind of talk about the
different sorts of strategies.
'cause I think that gonnabe look very for like a baby
for
versus a toddler.
Um, and just to go to someof other affect kids right?
(11:09):
The further north you are,the longer the days are.
Yes.
famously, in insomnia is endemicin Alaska in the summertime
where it's like a 20 hour day.
where we live in the northeast,it's a little bit longer.
And a lot of that's nice, right?
Like you can, the fa as a family, youcan spend time outside in the evenings
much more than you can in the wintertime.
It's not all bad, but itdoes change your routine.
(11:32):
So controlling that, if you're ableto, and I think most people are
able to at least control it a littlebit, but exposure to light, right?
A lot of my clients are going tobed before the sun goes down, right?
It's it's tricky though, 'cause likelittle kids are so light sensitive.
Like, You can definitely see kids likegetting up earlier in the mornings.
(11:54):
Yeah.
My child she's getting in that,prepubescent time, and I can already
see her sleep on set shifting later.
And she's waking later in the morning,way later in the morning, but she was
so sensitive to any light, so therecould be a sliver of light coming in
around a curtain, and she'd be up atfive 30 or five o'clock in the morning.
(12:17):
I find that now that she's 10, almost 11.
The light doesn't bother her at all.
So I agree that younger children,they see the light, they're up.
thing, one hack that kind of workedfor us when we were traveling, we were
staying at a vacation house we we to.
shuffle The the kids a little bit.
So the kids that got upyounger were in the same room.
(12:39):
you know, it's, it is fun for thecousins like having sleepovers
anyway, in my experience.
And that way at least, you're not gonnaprotect your own sleep particularly, but
you can maybe protect the sleep of some ofthe kids who need a little bit more sleep.
I remember my aunt, my wife's has aplace on the beach and we were staying
there and the younger kids, a, shehad a walk-in closet without a window.
(13:01):
So like the really little kids we'dput in there, 'cause it's dark.
And and this is really gonna varydepending on your situation where
you're traveling, but sometimeschanging where people sleep um,
shuffling, who is sleeping with whom.
And I'd say also recognizing thatother families have different
rules and routines than, do.
And if you're traveling, if know,really strict about electronics
(13:26):
and the other family isn't.
Just be aware that you kids aregonna be asking you about that.
And I'm not gonna mention byname the people in our lives
who on vacation would let their.
Child fall asleep in pack and playwith an know, you know who you are.
I think when we talk about teenagers,we can talk about things uh, that
(13:47):
are really sleep positive summercamp uh, summer jobs camping.
summer camp has been good for mydaughter, but like waking her up at six
30 this morning, she's wanna get up.
But I'm like, dude, your busis coming at eight this fall.
'cause you're gonna be inmiddle school this year.
Last year for the past five years,it's been 9:00 AM which is super late.
(14:09):
She could have gone, she would've beenfine going to school at 8:00 AM for the
past five years, but now it would'vebeen better for her to go at nine.
But I know you're a huge advocate forlater start times for older children too.
And and looking ahead to middleschoolers and high schoolers it,
it can be a real rough landing uh,prepare for uh, given how early
(14:31):
school starts for a lot of those kids.
So I think we talked a little bitabout infants already, specifically
around the heat factors in travel.
What other sort of tips do you have,like for your clients who have.
You know, baby's less than a yearof age if they're traveling or it's
just the summertime in general.
I think we've talked about this onprevious episodes about travel tips
(14:52):
and tricks, but There's only so muchwe can control, and if our babies
and toddlers are out of their ownenvironment, they may not sleep well.
you may have to throw the rulebook out in order to get the
sleep that everyone needs.
Obviously try to control the environment.
(15:13):
Dark, cool, quiet, safe.
Try to keep them on schedule.
Even if the nap is on the go.
Try to keep it a normal timeframeso that your kid isn't like down by
you're trying to give them a nap.
Just, keeping them wellrested, but also just.
Trying to have fun andlet go a little bit.
'cause I think can get so scaredto even travel because they don't
(15:37):
wanna get outta their routinebecause they have literal PTSD from
when their children poor sleepers.
So it can be scary, but if you cantry to remember that your children
now, you can get back on track whenyou're home, that can be freeing.
you got, you gotta have a balance, right?
the fact, the fact is.
(15:58):
I know a lot of the, our favoritestories in our family about vacations
are sometimes go go And in themoment it's stressful, kind of funny,
Great.
uh, in retrospect and youyou can't manage everything.
you know, sometimes your kid's gonnahave a tantrum when you're traveling.
It's fine.
Everybody has been there, and Iguarantee you any adult in the vicinity.
(16:19):
Uh, Who has been a parent at some pointis just grateful that it's not their kid.
but also having empathy, don't feelbad if you're out there and your
toddler's having a tantrum at thebeach if you're surrounded by parents.
We've all experienced it.
I'm glad it's not my child, but at thesame time I have so much empathy and
sympathy and grace for those parents thatare going through that while their child.
(16:44):
And the thing is for me, as I alwayssay, also in addition to sleep, is make
sure you're feeding them regularly.
Like you said feeding schedulescan get thrown off and.
Children can get very hangry.
They can And as long as your childis well fed and you're keeping
them well rested on some sort ofa schedule, you should be okay.
Yeah, like if your kid's being reallydifficult, they're probably either
(17:07):
angry or leaving is not gonna be great.
Yeah.
And I'd say for toddlers,the rules of the same.
You maybe have toddlers are a littlebit less adaptable than infants,
I agree
I mean, And they're gonna, there'sthis idea we've talked about the
Fri forbidden zone In the evening.
You really have two windows whereyour kid's gonna fall asleep, so
your kid misses the, their bedtime.
(17:29):
They might be reallyactive and of wide awake.
I don't think you have to push it.
If they're acting crazy and they'rerunning around having fun with their
cousins or whatever, just recognizelittle, there may be a little bit of
a consequence to but that, but that'sis vacationing as a parent is not like
vacation before you have a parent.
And I remember it being a rude awakeninguh, on our first trip away with
(17:50):
Charlie being like, oh, I can't just.
Hang out by the pool and drinkbeer and and read a book.
like, I actually am not sitting down.
That's why
Um,
vacations.
I, I, I, the article, my blog aboutuh, is vacation quote, sleep, which
I was probably terrible for SEO,but that's that's just what it is.
it, low, you are lesslikely to be disappointed.
(18:11):
it's difficult though ifyou're a type A parent.
And I work with a lot of type A parents.
It's very difficult to let goand then to handle if things
get crazy while you're away.
And, And there's also the peoplewho you see a lot of who have
struggled with their kids' sleep.
They And they're reluctant todeviate from their routine, tricky.
I'm not gonna lie.
(18:31):
I see sometimes parents come in andoh, my kids kids sleep was going great.
And then we went on vacation and Ibrought her into bed with me now she
has slept in my bed for three years.
Um.
That's very common.
that that is true in our world.
That doesn't mean it's the majorityof kids uh, where that will happen.
it's what I see.
if it's
yeah.
causing problems, I'm not gonna see it.
(18:52):
think, And I think if you've got an olderchild, say a preschool or a school age
kid, and you're making some deviationsfrom the routine, like bed sharing,
it's worth saying, oh, this is a whata fun sleepover we're gonna have here.
This isn't what we do at home,
Right,
we're, we're gonna share the same room.
Maybe you're gonna be in bed uh,with one parent and your brother
(19:12):
will be in bed with the other parent.
And what a, what a fun treat for us todo this is not how we're gonna normally,
we normally do that that uh, I think agood conversation to have you know, I
can say for us, you know, when we go onvacation, we usually share a room with
our kids because we're not billionaires.
know, Everybody's gotta bea little bit more flexible.
The struggles are different when youhave teenagers, like specifically
(19:33):
around people, kids spendinga lot of time in the bathroom.
or taking very long showers whenwe're all trying to But that's
part of the fun of it too, right?
absolutely.
So, So let's get into school age kids.
'cause I I gotta say this is somethingI deal with probably more than you
do and I see these are the kids totend to have more uh, in general,
(19:55):
infants and toddlers are not gonnashift their schedule super late.
And there's a couple of reasons for this.
One is.
Most of them biologically,they're early risers.
And we tend to have stricter rules forlittle kids, like kids who are sleeping
in cribs, kids who are sleeping in toddlerbeds than we do for school age kids.
And and I will say kids that really needtheir routines, like children with autism
(20:20):
who tend to thrive with set routines.
Can have a real difficulttime in the summer.
Many special needs kids willgo to school year round.
Uh, They'll go to summer school orsummer programs, but there still
are gaps of at least two to threeweeks at the beginning of the off.
And families in this contextcan really dread this because it
(20:42):
means that everything gets off,behaviors get off diet gets off.
Sleep gets extremely disrupted.
Hmm.
And what I say to families this is, thisis hard, is to try to replicate their
schedule as much as possible and reallymake sure they're active during the day.
And the fact is, as a parent,you really can provide as much
(21:03):
stimulation to They're they'reinteracting with many different people.
You can't perfectly replicate that degreeof stimulation, that degree of activity.
But taking your kid to the park on aset routine, going to a playground,
if there is an appropriate summerprogram your ch your special needs
child, it can be very helpful.
it is, it is a challenging time formany special needs the flip side is
(21:27):
I've seen many kids in this situationstruggling, They're struggling, and
they're like age four and a half,they start kindergarten and all of
a sudden things get a lot better
because so,
structured environment.
it's a finite period of time.
parents, if you're struggling, ifyou can find anyone to help you
get any respite care from otherfamily members, it can be difficult.
(21:48):
In general, I think it's important forkids school I, I think through ages
12 or 14, you still have to have abedtime for your kids and it doesn't
have to be the same bedtime, but Iwould not recommend, say having your
8-year-old have no bedtime, which Isee very frequently in the summertime,
Yeah.
um, that they're there's this vibe well,you don't have to, anything you gotta
(22:10):
do tomorrow, just do whatever you want.
And if they're teenagers inthe house, their little kids
will wanna be on that schedule.
Yeah.
Um, you know, I think it'sstill good to have a bedtime.
My recommendation is if your kid is.
not in puberty yet.
Usually shifting the schedule aboutan hour later is a pretty safe bet
for Kids in puberty.
We'll get to like teenagers uh,and pre-teens two hours I think
(22:34):
is fine and much more realistic
Mm-hmm.
and maybe on special nights even later.
But like on an average night, I'dsay, you know, if they go to bed
at nine o'clock on the school week,let you know, have 'em go to bed 10.
Or if they're like, like if they'relike a 11 or 12-year-old, like 11 at
the it's just, you don't want to haveto unroll this at the end of the Be
(22:55):
because I guarantee not, your childis not doing enriching activities.
They're probably on screens.
Yeah
uh, one excuse that has nevercarried water in my house and
doesn't for my patients eitheris what other kids are doing.
Yeah.
Just because your 10 year old's friendis up all night on Snapchat or something
does not mean that your child gets todo I I also would strongly recommend
(23:19):
that you have the same screen timerules in the summer as you do uh, during
the school which that your your kids'devices don't live in the room at night.
right.
That can be hard to reinforce withteenagers who go to bed later,
Then
you
later Than you than you do.
Sure.
uh, I'd say for teens kindof take a different tack.
For, I think teenagers need to havesome autonomy and if you're trying to
(23:41):
manage their bedtime You know, They maynot be working and you're working is a
battle, but trying to set a wake timeis mutually agreed upon is a good idea.
uh, Again, there's the perfectworld and there's the real world.
And the real world may their wake time ais a little a little bit later than you
like, but your child can commit to itand it's not gonna be a battle every day.
Right.
(24:01):
Uh, This is why summer activitiesare so important for older kids.
I can tell you like summer campis like magic for my kids with
sleep issues um, because especiallysleepaway camp, if they go away.
Uh, The rules at camp are much more
Most summer camps, they're not necessarilyletting them have their devices, or
at least they have rules around them.
(24:21):
And the kids are very busy during the day.
Yeah, they're outside.
outside.
did, I did computer
Okay.
All right.
I actually was too nerdyto go sleep away camp.
I was, I was too muchof a fraidy Boy Scout.
So you were on screens
was on, I was on a, yeah, likea monochrome monitor, writing
programs in BASIC, that wouldsay my name a million times.
your brain,
I was Using my brain my weak little nerdbody to carry books around and stuff.
(24:47):
um, Summer jobs are helpful.
sort of like real magicalreset uh, and that is camping.
there's There's actually a coupleof articles looking at camping
for teenagers that have reallysevere delayed sleep phase.
When we say delayed sleep phase, thatmeans their natural sleep periods
have shifted significantly laterthan they need to be for their lives.
(25:09):
So imagine a kid who's sleepingfrom three to noon every day.
During the pandemic, when we had thislonger period, I saw many teenagers
who were up all night and sleeping allday, and there wasn't much we could
do about it because if everybody'sdoing it, is it a problem or does
it just reflect the circumstances?
am laughing because that wasme when I was a teenager.
(25:29):
know,
Yeah.
like up late and sleeping tillnoon, and now I'm like, lucky
if I can sleep till 8:00 AM
So that's, uh, your childwill ruin your sleep.
That's true.
of waking up in the five and 6:00 AM
you become a obligate morning person.
Um.
because I'm up now earlier than mychild, which just blows my mind.
(25:50):
Oh yeah, too.
I'm I'm the person that getseverybody up in our house.
But but anyway, going back to thecamping thing, they took kids with
these sleep schedules on a camping trip.
They did not have them bring theirscreens and over four days they
totally reset to going to bed not toolate and getting uh, close to dawn
Is
like.
It was from it was from, I I thinkthey were thinking it was largely uh,
(26:11):
the technical term would entrainmentuh, having the only light exposures,
being natural light exposures.
Um, But the, I I'm sure they weren'tjust sitting around the uh, listening
to them complain about the factthey didn't have their phones.
But, you know, so I'd say if you have ateenager that's really shifted late and
your family likes to do something likethis, if you planned a trip like this
at the end of the summer, it actually.
Might be very helpful.
(26:32):
Another thing that comes uh,'cause I I, I I care for a wide
range from various socioeconomicbackgrounds , but but I do care for a
fair amount of affluent uh, families.
if if you are traveling east that willalso help set your schedule earlier.
So on the East Coast, if you're goingto Europe or if you're on the west
coast, you're coming to the East coast.
It'll take about one day of jet lagto fully set your schedule schedule.
(26:56):
If you come back right into theschool year, your kid will have
an easier time getting up early.
Again, not your insurance is gonnapay for a trip to Europe, but if you
were planning on it anyway and youhad concerns about this, doing it at
the end of the summer may be helpful.
I am gonna let my boss know that becausethey live in California and she was
(27:16):
telling me that they're gonna be on theEast coast for vacation, and then the
next week the kids go back to school.
So that's actuallygonna benefit everybody.
It is perfect.
I'd say um, the big themes for me wouldbe Let, let, Let's do round robin, like
what are the things you'd say to parentsin general, what to do this summer?
the me, for me, numberone, keep a routine.
Doesn't have to be exactly weekas the school year routine.
(27:40):
For most kids have a set bed time,I'd say for ages 12 to 14 and up.
have a set wake time.
What, What's a good one for you?
So for going on vacation, like you weresaying before, my clients come to me.
in desperation.
I don't have people comingto me with easy children or
(28:00):
you know,
Sure.
that were great sleepers,you know what I'm saying?
They become easier once they do sleep.
going away, I just really try to impressupon parents, keep them well rested.
Try to stick to a similar schedule withinhalf an hour of what you normally are
seeing little infants are much easier.
if they're sleep trained and they're on areal schedule, they can be pretty rigid.
(28:25):
try to keep the schedulewithin 30 to 60 minutes.
Even if it's on the go, that's fine.
Car naps, stroller, naps.
keep bedtime at a reasonable hour.
If it's going to be a later bedtime, addanother little 30 minute stroller, nap
for an infant, things And for toddlers,usually the toddlers are on one nap.
(28:45):
So if you can prioritize that nap,go to the beach in the morning, come
home, have lunch, nap time, go backto the beach, something like that,
that can help immensely as well.
Skip the hottest time of the day of the
Ultimately, people are scared becausethey have dealt with children that haven't
slept, and it's been recent, right?
They've finally gottenthem to a good place.
(29:07):
So I try to just let them knowyour kids have the skills to
sleep well, to remember that.
Do Get back on schedule and when youget back on schedule, I talk about the
controlled wake up, what you were saying.
Controlling that wake up time will thenhelp naps fall into the right timing and
then bedtime fall into the right timing.
(29:28):
And it may take a little bit toadjust, but within a couple of
days, babies and toddlers can prettyquickly adjust back to what I would
say if you fell into bad habits.
Try to eliminate that as soonas possible when you get back.
It can be tricky and your childmight protest, but it shouldn't take
(29:48):
more than a day or two to get back.
I I think that's really good adviceyou, If you have achieved good sleep,
you will be able to achieve it again.
Um, And you know, parents come back tome, they're like, my kid was sleeping
well, and then they're not, and they'relike, I don't know what happened.
And then you start asking themand they're like, yeah, bedtime
slipped a little bit later.
And I started falling.
I started staying with him when he fallsasleep again and be like, Um, One thing
(30:10):
I to in the summertime um, there's a lotof evidence that kids actually without
routines, get a little bit less sleepthan they do during the school year,
which is the opposite of what we oflike, oh, the summers are chill, the kid,
if the kids are staying up super late.
Even if they're shifting their wake timelater, just think about what happens.
(30:31):
The room is getting bright,
Mm-hmm.
They're getting less sleep.
So I would say that to parents,it's okay for the schedule to
slide a little bit, but you stillhave to pay attention to make sure
your child's getting enough sleep.
Absolutely.
And, And the best barometer of thaton most kids is if you have to wake
them up in the morning, they'reprobably not getting enough sleep
and.
(30:51):
I won't say the teenagers lie, butthey may shade the truth if you
ask them when they went to sleep.
There's a cool hack.
Somebody showed uh, at least oniPhones, where you can look at the
battery consumption on Someone's phone
Oh.
see when they stopped using it.
So if you actually want to ask your like,they're like, oh, I went to bed then,
and be like, oh, you know, let me just,I I guess this should be agreed upon in
(31:12):
advance that you're able to look at yourkid's phone uh, with their permission.
You can actually see when theystopped looking at it the night before
like when the screen went off.
if you have parental controls set up onan iPhone, my daughter has an iPad and I
have from my phone to see even how longshe spent on any given thing, like YouTube
(31:35):
sure.
doesn't have social media, so I cansee how long she was on there for and
when she started and stopped using it.
will say the ultimate parentalcontrol at night is having
possession of your child's devices.
for
I am skeptical of any parent whosays that software is keeping their
child from accessing their deviceat night if it's in their room,
(31:56):
it's
I.
allowed in her room at night.
um, um, do you use just Apple stuffor use like Life 360 or something?
at the point of life.
360 I. Learning about it.
So I just use the apple,whatever it is on there.
It shows you screen
time
Yeah,
But eventually I will beputting other things on there.
(32:16):
That's what we know.
I just didn't feel like.
Surveilling them that closely.
But every family makesdifferent decisions.
So I think we should close by talkingabout what do you do if is shifted a
lot later this is incredibly common forme to see teenagers come in and they've
shifted their schedule much later.
So here's what I recommend.
(32:37):
I think for most kids.
plan on for, uh, at least four orfive days before the beginning of
the school year, getting them upat eight in the morning, taking
them up for a walk in the sunshine.
That's all you really need to do.
You don't need to have, make some bigproduction about this, but I would say
for kids that consistently sleepingvery late and I'd say very late is
(33:02):
more than four or five hours later,
Hmm
they're gonna have to wake up for school.
So honestly, they're have to get up atsix in the morning for school, which is a
common wake time in the US for teenagers.
They're gonna have a realhard time when school starts
if you don't make some plans.
Um, And I a couple of recommendationsin And and the first is actually.
(33:24):
You've gotta talk with yourchild about this issue.
If you're trying to roll out somechanges and they don't understand
why or aren't on board, it's justgonna create a lot of conflict.
I of talk to, your kid may be thinkingabout this and be like, hey, I noticed
you've been sleeping pretty You'restarting school in a couple of weeks.
That's gonna be pretty rough.
(33:44):
I think that might bepretty rough for you.
And just talk to 'ema little bit about it.
For kids that are reallyshifted later you can move their
wake time earlier gradually.
You can do that pretty easily,pretty painlessly, about
10 to 15 minutes per day.
And you gotta get them on board with this.
know, getting up 15 minutes earlierday is a lot easier than well,
you've been getting up at noon now.
I just want you to start getting up ateight in the Bedtime is gonna adjust
(34:07):
if you start moving that earlier.
I think it's worth also talkingwith them about what the, if the
screen time rules are different inyour home during the summertime.
uh, Having morning lightexposure can be helpful.
Uh, Opening the blinds in theuh, before your teenager wakes
up can help entrain them earlier.
where this gets really tricky isif you have a kid that's quite late
(34:27):
shifted, like they're sleeping all day.
Sometimes that morninglight exposure can actually.
Have the opposite effect becauseit's early in their circadian day.
Like Imagine you have a kid that'ssleeping from 7:00 AM to 5:00 PM the
the strongest effect for wake timefor for sunlight is about an hour
before you're naturally waking up.
uh, And if you're on the otherside of that uh, the light
(34:49):
can move things the wrong way.
shift work.
Yeah.
Well, a, is a real complicated butyeah, I'd say opening the blinds an hour
or two before when they're naturallywaking, would be the safe thing to do.
And I'd say if this is causing a lot ofconflict in your house or you are really
worried about it, it would be worthtaking your to your child's pediatrician.
(35:10):
it.
Sometimes having another adult who isnot you talk about why this is important
can break through in a way that thefact is we all know even when I was I
don't wanna get content wearing here,I was gonna be say a crap head, teen.
I would recognize that my parentswould be right about stuff, but if
they told me stuff, I still wouldn'tit because they they were my parents
(35:32):
and it's lame to listen to them.
Um, but if another adult I trusted,like my pediatrician said the
same thing, being like, okay,they're probably right about this.
I know, in in involving yourchild's healthcare provider.
And really this is the time to startthinking about if your kid's going
back to school in a couple of weeks.
if, If hopefully we'll get Issue episodeout pretty quickly um, or even it's a
(35:52):
month from just sort of thinking aboutthese things set your child up for
success when the school year starts.
if if your child is sleep deprivedfor the first week of school, when
they're making impression for firstimpressions on their new teachers kind
of learning how the school year works.
Yeah, absolutely.
I don't think that I run into manyissues with infants and toddlers
(36:13):
of shift in schedule, that drastic.
they've had to do something to assisttheir child to sleep, and then now they
wanna undo that when they get home.
a controlled wake up is helpful if thechild has started sleeping later than
maybe you would be leaving for daycare.
I don't see that scheduleshave shifted by hours much so
(36:35):
the, the schedule stuff feel likeis pretty easy in little kids.
biased.
They're getting up in the morning.
yeah, it's more puttingthe routine back together.
Um, and that can happen gradually, LikeIf you're like, oh, you had such a, I, I
would close with uh, for me personally,if you make some changes over the summer
where things are relaxed and thingsare still going well, that's okay.
(36:57):
Anything if it's workingfor your lifestyle.
know, Like sometimes people have thisguilt about being like, oh, I started
falling asleep with my kid at bedtime,my, or staying with my kid till they
fall asleep like, well, do they wakeup at night or are they sleeping well?
They're like, oh, they're sleeping great.
I'm like,
Does it
if it's disrupting sleep for everybody.
It.
It's funny, in the big Bible ofsleep disorders, it's called the
(37:17):
International Classification of SleepDisorders Chronic insomnia is defined
as three months of sleep problems.
So for adult insomnia, it's like beingunsatisfied with your sleep is one of the
criteria for chronic insomnia kids is ifthe parent is unsatisfied with the sleep.
So really, parental satisfactionis a big dimension of this.
it's It's all, subjective.
Yeah.
(37:38):
So listen, that's all I got today.
Arielle, you always have to remindme where people can find us.
thesleepedit podcast@gmail.com.
yeah.
we'll we'll uh, links for stuffwe talked about in the show notes.
And I think the next episodewe're gonna be talking on
Yeah, I'm excited about that one.
That is a big one.
(37:58):
For when people arecoming back from vacation.
Oh man, the struggle real.
real.
nap.
My older one was a terrible napperuntil he was like a year and
a half, and then he was great.
it's rough.
Okay, well hope everyone's having a goodsummer and uh, thanks for listening.
See you next time.
(38:19):
Thanks so much forlistening to the Sleep edit.
You can find transcripts atthe web address Sleeped show.
You can also find video of theepisodes at that address as
well as in my YouTube channel.
You can find me at Dr. Craigcanna perry.com and on all social
media at D-R-C-A-N-A-P-A-R-I.
(38:40):
You can find Ariel atInstagram at Ariel Greenleaf.
That's A-R-I-E-L-L-E-G-R-E.
N-L-E-A-F.
If you like the flavor of the advicehere, please check out my book.
It's Never Too Late to Sleep.
Train the low stress way to high qualitysleep for babies, kids, and parents.
(39:02):
It's available whereverfine books are sold.
If you found this useful, pleasesubscribe at Spotify or Apple Podcast
and share it with your friends.
It really helps as we're tryingto get the show off the ground.
Thanks.
Welcome to the Sleep Edit, apodcast devoted to helping tired
kids and parents sleep better.
We focus on actionable evidence-basedsleep advice, so everyone in your
home can sleep through the night.
Now, a quick disclaimer, this podcastis for general informational purposes
only and does not constitute thepractice of medicine, nursing, or
(00:21):
other professional healthcare services,including the giving of medical advice.
No doctor patient relationship is formed.
The use of this information andthe materials linked to this
podcast and any associated videocontent are at the user's own risk.
The content on the show is not intendedto be a substitute for professional
(00:42):
medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
Users should not disregard ordelay obtaining medical help for
any medical condition they have.
Or that their children may have,they should seek the assistance
of their healthcare professionalsfor any such conditions.
Nothing stated here reflectsthe views of our employers or
the employees of our guests.
(01:03):
Enjoy the show.
Hey, welcome back tothe Sleep Edit podcast.
I'm Dr. Craig Canapari.
And I'm Arielle Greenleaf.
So this is the podcast wherewe talk about children sleep
sleep problems, sleep solutions.
(01:24):
Uh, And since we're taping lateJuly, we thought it'd be a good time
to talk about summer sleep issuesand back to school sleep issues.
Yes, and I, we here in thenortheast tend to go back much
later than the rest of the country.
So I know that there are children gettingready for back to school in the next
couple of weeks, which blows my mind.
(01:47):
Yeah, think a in the south, alot of kids go back early August,
maybe first or second week.
I think the reason is so that morekids are in air conditioning during the
hottest part of the summer, but not sure.
see it's like different for us here'cause our schools aren't air conditioned.
Yeah.
and the September can be pretty hot soyou know what it, it's funny because
(02:08):
in my world I see this a lot, butmostly indirectly because teenagers
will come to see me for other reasons,maybe sleep reasons or sometimes even,
'cause I'm also a pulmonologist forasthma, but I always ask about sleep and
teenagers will often say, oh, I'm going.
Bed at three or four in themorning and sleeping all day.
(02:30):
And you know, we, that cancause some significant issues,
which we're gonna get into.
and I think certain other populations tendto struggle too with with Uh, Specifically
autistic kids as well have a lot more.
Uh, Difficulty regulating theirbehaviors outside of the routines
that they have during the school year.
Um, What sort of stuff doyou see in the summertime?
(02:51):
It's, I feel like people, even ifthey're traveling just on weekends
or a week here, a week there, somepeople go away for the whole summer
for a month, and then they come back.
And even if they're not going to school,they're going to daycare or mom and dad
are back to work after being on vacation.
I definitely have an influx ofclients at the end of August
(03:11):
and through September because.
Everyone's just trying to getback into routine adjusting to the
environment, adjusting the schedule,waking up earlier to get to daycare.
I do find that people tend tostruggle as the summer wraps up.
Yeah.
And, And and this is not to saythat you need to be crazy in the
(03:32):
summertime and super vigilantabout your kids' Part of the fun of
being a parent in the summertime iskicking back a little bit and letting
things be a little bit more relaxed.
But I still think kids should you know,parents should, even with older kids
provide some guidance uh, around sleep.
And for younger kids too.
Keeping routines intact as much aspossible does tend to avoid that
(03:53):
sort of September difficulties.
I Well, you know, i've always beeninterested in this topic, but the pandemic
we, you know, where kids basically hada summer that was six or eight months
long, and what I what I mean by that is.
School closed, at least inthe United States in March.
And for many kids, either in thefall, they were going back to hybrid
(04:15):
programs like they did in our town orin many cities like New Haven where
I work, kids were outta school forthrough the first semester at least.
were the, here were the sleep changesthat we saw during the pandemic.
One was a drastic increase in screen time.
Two was a later shift of bedtimeand wake time across age groups.
Three was interestingly,more nighttime sleep.
(04:36):
Um, Four was less napping in young kids,and five was less sleep disturbance.
And this is not a perfect analogyto what we see in the summertime,
there's, there are some parallels.
When I was trying to understandthis, I came across a research
paper from 2017, which was actuallylooking at the increase in obesity
(04:57):
in kids during the summer months.
which is an interesting phenomenon.
We always think of the summertime,perhaps thinking back to, for me, the
eighties uh, summertime being muchmore active than the school year.
Um, But these they coined this ideacalled the structured days hypothesis,
and they said that during the school year,specifically the school week, kids had
(05:18):
structured wake times, they had compulsoryperiods of physical activity, right?
They had gym class, they hadrecess, they had restricted
screen time during the day, right?
Like no teacher , would sayoh , you're being annoying here.
Have an iPad for five hours.
And there are structured meal times.
Yeah.
And you know many children I see whostruggle with weight because weight
(05:39):
overlaps a lot with respiratory andsome sleep problems, their parents will
say their kids are hungry all the time.
One of my colleagues,Rachel Goldberg-Gell in the.
Obesity clinic always says to parents isyour kid snacking incessantly in school?
And the answer is no.
The teachers don't just say, oh,yeah, go to the closet and um, some
Takis or chocolate chip They're justlike, no they, they, the kids don't
(06:02):
even ask because it's not an option.
Whereas in the summertime uh, ifyou're at home, it's very easy to
go access snacks that aren't alwaysnutritionally and the authors say the
changes that happen in the summer area later shift in sleep and wake times
Yep.
more snacking and nutrition.
know, Say what you willabout school lunches.
(06:23):
I don't remember them beingsuper delicious, but there are at
least some baseline nutritionalstandards that they have to meet.
And a lot of research has shown that alater sleep time in children is associated
with an increase in body mass In obesity.
Uh, There's this one study that's veryinteresting that looked at kids in a
gifted program in Mississippi uh, over thesummer, kids nine to 15, and there were,
(06:45):
there was a group with early sleep periodsand a group with later sleep periods.
Um, And the early sleepperiod kids they're.
Sleep was from 9:40pm to 7:50am
.The The later group was 1:45 AM to 10:45 AM
What age group was this?
9 to 15.
Okay.
And the kids in the later sleepgroup were more likely to make
(07:08):
poor dietary choices, consume moresugary, caffeinated beverages, select
other foods like high nutritionaldensity, poor nutritional content.
So these changes in thesummertime can have a real
effect on our children's health.
Even if as a parent, the sleep is notcausing us problems, the kids aren't
waking us up, the kids being disruptive.
(07:30):
Letting your child have freereign in the summertime can have
significant health consequences.
Yeah.
And, And we were brainstormingthe, what are the sort of factors
that can affect sleep in the
Yeah.
I think for, you often are dealing withschool aged children and I'm mostly
dealing with infants and toddlersand certainly, one of the things I
saw, especially on social media thisyear was there was a huge, I know.
(07:57):
only saw the uk, therewas a huge heat wave and
there's
I was, I was
You were there.
and there's not a lot ofair conditioning over there.
And so keeping children cool, andespecially infants, which is essential
for SIDS prevention, protection.
And so keeping them cool is.
An important thing, but how do youkeep them cool if you don't even have
(08:19):
air conditioning, things like that.
it it is true in thecontext of climate change.
We take air conditioning for grantedin a lot of places in the States.
And in Europe that is not the case.
Two years ago we were in Rome andwe went to the Vatican, which is the
home to many priceless works of art.
And it is not climate controlled.
Uh, The Sistine Chapel is lightlyclimate controlled, but I asked,
(08:41):
I think it was probably about 80degrees in there when I went in.
Which is pretty remarkablewhen you think of there's
literally priceless works of art.
And they're like, be, will be.
they've survived this
long,
it, it is very clear that as theclimate warms, and especially in the
summertime, it has an effect on Andthat's a safety issue in young uh,
infants where we know elevated roomtemperatures are a SIDS risk factor.
(09:02):
right.
Do you have suggestionson how to help with that?
Fans obviously keeping, one of the thingsthat I always recommend is keeping the
shades drawn throughout the day so thatthe sun isn't coming through the windows
and, overheating the room even more.
and that, that's why so manyEuropean homes have shutters for that
(09:23):
right.
reason.
Fans I I think personally, if youlive in a really hot climate I I would
recommend getting a window air conditionerif it is all possible for your baby.
Um, You dress them very lightly.
probably, they can sleep just injust a onesie or even just a diaper.
Um, They don't need a blanket.
And really pay attention to if it's,if it's dangerously uh, maybe go to a
(09:43):
cooling center or to a friend's housewhere they have a cooler setting.
Uh, You might even decampto the basement to sleep.
Yeah.
but it's, it can be hard to mitigate.
For infants and toddlers, theirsituations are pretty similar.
Again.
Environment being in a differentplace, which some children are
great travelers, some are not.
(10:05):
Mine was in the latter category.
There are a lot of naps on the go.
So instead of being in a crib,they're, in a car or in a stroller
as people are on vacation.
People have to live their lives, right?
You can't expect people tohave three crib naps for their
infant if they're on vacation.
(10:25):
Those are some of the thingsthat I find the most challenging.
Also, being out, like you were talkingabout, being outta their typical routine.
You might have a party in the evening,and so bedtime may be a little bit later.
Some children, again, do well with that.
Some do not.
Either way, when you're getting back.
Even if your child isadjusted to a later bedtime.
(10:48):
coming back to get back on trackand that can cause some, difficulty
for some parents and families.
Yeah.
And I think when we go byages kind of talk about the
different sorts of strategies.
'cause I think that gonnabe look very for like a baby
for
versus a toddler.
Um, and just to go to someof other affect kids right?
(11:09):
The further north you are,the longer the days are.
Yes.
famously, in insomnia is endemicin Alaska in the summertime
where it's like a 20 hour day.
where we live in the northeast,it's a little bit longer.
And a lot of that's nice, right?
Like you can, the fa as a family, youcan spend time outside in the evenings
much more than you can in the wintertime.
It's not all bad, but itdoes change your routine.
(11:32):
So controlling that, if you're ableto, and I think most people are
able to at least control it a littlebit, but exposure to light, right?
A lot of my clients are going tobed before the sun goes down, right?
It's it's tricky though, 'cause likelittle kids are so light sensitive.
Like, You can definitely see kids likegetting up earlier in the mornings.
(11:54):
Yeah.
My child she's getting in that,prepubescent time, and I can already
see her sleep on set shifting later.
And she's waking later in the morning,way later in the morning, but she was
so sensitive to any light, so therecould be a sliver of light coming in
around a curtain, and she'd be up atfive 30 or five o'clock in the morning.
(12:17):
I find that now that she's 10, almost 11.
The light doesn't bother her at all.
So I agree that younger children,they see the light, they're up.
thing, one hack that kind of workedfor us when we were traveling, we were
staying at a vacation house we we to.
shuffle The the kids a little bit.
So the kids that got upyounger were in the same room.
(12:39):
you know, it's, it is fun for thecousins like having sleepovers
anyway, in my experience.
And that way at least, you're not gonnaprotect your own sleep particularly, but
you can maybe protect the sleep of some ofthe kids who need a little bit more sleep.
I remember my aunt, my wife's has aplace on the beach and we were staying
there and the younger kids, a, shehad a walk-in closet without a window.
(13:01):
So like the really little kids we'dput in there, 'cause it's dark.
And and this is really gonna varydepending on your situation where
you're traveling, but sometimeschanging where people sleep um,
shuffling, who is sleeping with whom.
And I'd say also recognizing thatother families have different
rules and routines than, do.
And if you're traveling, if know,really strict about electronics
(13:26):
and the other family isn't.
Just be aware that you kids aregonna be asking you about that.
And I'm not gonna mention byname the people in our lives
who on vacation would let their.
Child fall asleep in pack and playwith an know, you know who you are.
I think when we talk about teenagers,we can talk about things uh, that
(13:47):
are really sleep positive summercamp uh, summer jobs camping.
summer camp has been good for mydaughter, but like waking her up at six
30 this morning, she's wanna get up.
But I'm like, dude, your busis coming at eight this fall.
'cause you're gonna be inmiddle school this year.
Last year for the past five years,it's been 9:00 AM which is super late.
(14:09):
She could have gone, she would've beenfine going to school at 8:00 AM for the
past five years, but now it would'vebeen better for her to go at nine.
But I know you're a huge advocate forlater start times for older children too.
And and looking ahead to middleschoolers and high schoolers it,
it can be a real rough landing uh,prepare for uh, given how early
(14:31):
school starts for a lot of those kids.
So I think we talked a little bitabout infants already, specifically
around the heat factors in travel.
What other sort of tips do you have,like for your clients who have.
You know, baby's less than a yearof age if they're traveling or it's
just the summertime in general.
I think we've talked about this onprevious episodes about travel tips
(14:52):
and tricks, but There's only so muchwe can control, and if our babies
and toddlers are out of their ownenvironment, they may not sleep well.
you may have to throw the rulebook out in order to get the
sleep that everyone needs.
Obviously try to control the environment.
(15:13):
Dark, cool, quiet, safe.
Try to keep them on schedule.
Even if the nap is on the go.
Try to keep it a normal timeframeso that your kid isn't like down by
you're trying to give them a nap.
Just, keeping them wellrested, but also just.
Trying to have fun andlet go a little bit.
'cause I think can get so scaredto even travel because they don't
(15:37):
wanna get outta their routinebecause they have literal PTSD from
when their children poor sleepers.
So it can be scary, but if you cantry to remember that your children
now, you can get back on track whenyou're home, that can be freeing.
you got, you gotta have a balance, right?
the fact, the fact is.
(15:58):
I know a lot of the, our favoritestories in our family about vacations
are sometimes go go And in themoment it's stressful, kind of funny,
Great.
uh, in retrospect and youyou can't manage everything.
you know, sometimes your kid's gonnahave a tantrum when you're traveling.
It's fine.
Everybody has been there, and Iguarantee you any adult in the vicinity.
(16:19):
Uh, Who has been a parent at some pointis just grateful that it's not their kid.
but also having empathy, don't feelbad if you're out there and your
toddler's having a tantrum at thebeach if you're surrounded by parents.
We've all experienced it.
I'm glad it's not my child, but at thesame time I have so much empathy and
sympathy and grace for those parents thatare going through that while their child.
(16:44):
And the thing is for me, as I alwayssay, also in addition to sleep, is make
sure you're feeding them regularly.
Like you said feeding schedulescan get thrown off and.
Children can get very hangry.
They can And as long as your childis well fed and you're keeping
them well rested on some sort ofa schedule, you should be okay.
Yeah, like if your kid's being reallydifficult, they're probably either
(17:07):
angry or leaving is not gonna be great.
Yeah.
And I'd say for toddlers,the rules of the same.
You maybe have toddlers are a littlebit less adaptable than infants,
I agree
I mean, And they're gonna, there'sthis idea we've talked about the
Fri forbidden zone In the evening.
You really have two windows whereyour kid's gonna fall asleep, so
your kid misses the, their bedtime.
(17:29):
They might be reallyactive and of wide awake.
I don't think you have to push it.
If they're acting crazy and they'rerunning around having fun with their
cousins or whatever, just recognizelittle, there may be a little bit of
a consequence to but that, but that'sis vacationing as a parent is not like
vacation before you have a parent.
And I remember it being a rude awakeninguh, on our first trip away with
(17:50):
Charlie being like, oh, I can't just.
Hang out by the pool and drinkbeer and and read a book.
like, I actually am not sitting down.
That's why
Um,
vacations.
I, I, I, the article, my blog aboutuh, is vacation quote, sleep, which
I was probably terrible for SEO,but that's that's just what it is.
it, low, you are lesslikely to be disappointed.
(18:11):
it's difficult though ifyou're a type A parent.
And I work with a lot of type A parents.
It's very difficult to let goand then to handle if things
get crazy while you're away.
And, And there's also the peoplewho you see a lot of who have
struggled with their kids' sleep.
They And they're reluctant todeviate from their routine, tricky.
I'm not gonna lie.
(18:31):
I see sometimes parents come in andoh, my kids kids sleep was going great.
And then we went on vacation and Ibrought her into bed with me now she
has slept in my bed for three years.
Um.
That's very common.
that that is true in our world.
That doesn't mean it's the majorityof kids uh, where that will happen.
it's what I see.
if it's
yeah.
causing problems, I'm not gonna see it.
(18:52):
think, And I think if you've got an olderchild, say a preschool or a school age
kid, and you're making some deviationsfrom the routine, like bed sharing,
it's worth saying, oh, this is a whata fun sleepover we're gonna have here.
This isn't what we do at home,
Right,
we're, we're gonna share the same room.
Maybe you're gonna be in bed uh,with one parent and your brother
(19:12):
will be in bed with the other parent.
And what a, what a fun treat for us todo this is not how we're gonna normally,
we normally do that that uh, I think agood conversation to have you know, I
can say for us, you know, when we go onvacation, we usually share a room with
our kids because we're not billionaires.
know, Everybody's gotta bea little bit more flexible.
The struggles are different when youhave teenagers, like specifically
(19:33):
around people, kids spendinga lot of time in the bathroom.
or taking very long showers whenwe're all trying to But that's
part of the fun of it too, right?
absolutely.
So, So let's get into school age kids.
'cause I I gotta say this is somethingI deal with probably more than you
do and I see these are the kids totend to have more uh, in general,
(19:55):
infants and toddlers are not gonnashift their schedule super late.
And there's a couple of reasons for this.
One is.
Most of them biologically,they're early risers.
And we tend to have stricter rules forlittle kids, like kids who are sleeping
in cribs, kids who are sleeping in toddlerbeds than we do for school age kids.
And and I will say kids that really needtheir routines, like children with autism
(20:20):
who tend to thrive with set routines.
Can have a real difficulttime in the summer.
Many special needs kids willgo to school year round.
Uh, They'll go to summer school orsummer programs, but there still
are gaps of at least two to threeweeks at the beginning of the off.
And families in this contextcan really dread this because it
(20:42):
means that everything gets off,behaviors get off diet gets off.
Sleep gets extremely disrupted.
Hmm.
And what I say to families this is, thisis hard, is to try to replicate their
schedule as much as possible and reallymake sure they're active during the day.
And the fact is, as a parent,you really can provide as much
(21:03):
stimulation to They're they'reinteracting with many different people.
You can't perfectly replicate that degreeof stimulation, that degree of activity.
But taking your kid to the park on aset routine, going to a playground,
if there is an appropriate summerprogram your ch your special needs
child, it can be very helpful.
it is, it is a challenging time formany special needs the flip side is
(21:27):
I've seen many kids in this situationstruggling, They're struggling, and
they're like age four and a half,they start kindergarten and all of
a sudden things get a lot better
because so,
structured environment.
it's a finite period of time.
parents, if you're struggling, ifyou can find anyone to help you
get any respite care from otherfamily members, it can be difficult.
(21:48):
In general, I think it's important forkids school I, I think through ages
12 or 14, you still have to have abedtime for your kids and it doesn't
have to be the same bedtime, but Iwould not recommend, say having your
8-year-old have no bedtime, which Isee very frequently in the summertime,
Yeah.
um, that they're there's this vibe well,you don't have to, anything you gotta
(22:10):
do tomorrow, just do whatever you want.
And if they're teenagers inthe house, their little kids
will wanna be on that schedule.
Yeah.
Um, you know, I think it'sstill good to have a bedtime.
My recommendation is if your kid is.
not in puberty yet.
Usually shifting the schedule aboutan hour later is a pretty safe bet
for Kids in puberty.
We'll get to like teenagers uh,and pre-teens two hours I think
(22:34):
is fine and much more realistic
Mm-hmm.
and maybe on special nights even later.
But like on an average night, I'dsay, you know, if they go to bed
at nine o'clock on the school week,let you know, have 'em go to bed 10.
Or if they're like, like if they'relike a 11 or 12-year-old, like 11 at
the it's just, you don't want to haveto unroll this at the end of the Be
(22:55):
because I guarantee not, your childis not doing enriching activities.
They're probably on screens.
Yeah
uh, one excuse that has nevercarried water in my house and
doesn't for my patients eitheris what other kids are doing.
Yeah.
Just because your 10 year old's friendis up all night on Snapchat or something
does not mean that your child gets todo I I also would strongly recommend
(23:19):
that you have the same screen timerules in the summer as you do uh, during
the school which that your your kids'devices don't live in the room at night.
right.
That can be hard to reinforce withteenagers who go to bed later,
Then
you
later Than you than you do.
Sure.
uh, I'd say for teens kindof take a different tack.
For, I think teenagers need to havesome autonomy and if you're trying to
(23:41):
manage their bedtime You know, They maynot be working and you're working is a
battle, but trying to set a wake timeis mutually agreed upon is a good idea.
uh, Again, there's the perfectworld and there's the real world.
And the real world may their wake time ais a little a little bit later than you
like, but your child can commit to itand it's not gonna be a battle every day.
Right.
(24:01):
Uh, This is why summer activitiesare so important for older kids.
I can tell you like summer campis like magic for my kids with
sleep issues um, because especiallysleepaway camp, if they go away.
Uh, The rules at camp are much more
Most summer camps, they're not necessarilyletting them have their devices, or
at least they have rules around them.
(24:21):
And the kids are very busy during the day.
Yeah, they're outside.
outside.
did, I did computer
Okay.
All right.
I actually was too nerdyto go sleep away camp.
I was, I was too muchof a fraidy Boy Scout.
So you were on screens
was on, I was on a, yeah, likea monochrome monitor, writing
programs in BASIC, that wouldsay my name a million times.
your brain,
I was Using my brain my weak little nerdbody to carry books around and stuff.
(24:47):
um, Summer jobs are helpful.
sort of like real magicalreset uh, and that is camping.
there's There's actually a coupleof articles looking at camping
for teenagers that have reallysevere delayed sleep phase.
When we say delayed sleep phase, thatmeans their natural sleep periods
have shifted significantly laterthan they need to be for their lives.
(25:09):
So imagine a kid who's sleepingfrom three to noon every day.
During the pandemic, when we had thislonger period, I saw many teenagers
who were up all night and sleeping allday, and there wasn't much we could
do about it because if everybody'sdoing it, is it a problem or does
it just reflect the circumstances?
am laughing because that wasme when I was a teenager.
(25:29):
know,
Yeah.
like up late and sleeping tillnoon, and now I'm like, lucky
if I can sleep till 8:00 AM
So that's, uh, your childwill ruin your sleep.
That's true.
of waking up in the five and 6:00 AM
you become a obligate morning person.
Um.
because I'm up now earlier than mychild, which just blows my mind.
(25:50):
Oh yeah, too.
I'm I'm the person that getseverybody up in our house.
But but anyway, going back to thecamping thing, they took kids with
these sleep schedules on a camping trip.
They did not have them bring theirscreens and over four days they
totally reset to going to bed not toolate and getting uh, close to dawn
Is
like.
It was from it was from, I I thinkthey were thinking it was largely uh,
(26:11):
the technical term would entrainmentuh, having the only light exposures,
being natural light exposures.
Um, But the, I I'm sure they weren'tjust sitting around the uh, listening
to them complain about the factthey didn't have their phones.
But, you know, so I'd say if you have ateenager that's really shifted late and
your family likes to do something likethis, if you planned a trip like this
at the end of the summer, it actually.
Might be very helpful.
(26:32):
Another thing that comes uh,'cause I I, I I care for a wide
range from various socioeconomicbackgrounds , but but I do care for a
fair amount of affluent uh, families.
if if you are traveling east that willalso help set your schedule earlier.
So on the East Coast, if you're goingto Europe or if you're on the west
coast, you're coming to the East coast.
It'll take about one day of jet lagto fully set your schedule schedule.
(26:56):
If you come back right into theschool year, your kid will have
an easier time getting up early.
Again, not your insurance is gonnapay for a trip to Europe, but if you
were planning on it anyway and youhad concerns about this, doing it at
the end of the summer may be helpful.
I am gonna let my boss know that becausethey live in California and she was
(27:16):
telling me that they're gonna be on theEast coast for vacation, and then the
next week the kids go back to school.
So that's actuallygonna benefit everybody.
It is perfect.
I'd say um, the big themes for me wouldbe Let, let, Let's do round robin, like
what are the things you'd say to parentsin general, what to do this summer?
the me, for me, numberone, keep a routine.
Doesn't have to be exactly weekas the school year routine.
(27:40):
For most kids have a set bed time,I'd say for ages 12 to 14 and up.
have a set wake time.
What, What's a good one for you?
So for going on vacation, like you weresaying before, my clients come to me.
in desperation.
I don't have people comingto me with easy children or
(28:00):
you know,
Sure.
that were great sleepers,you know what I'm saying?
They become easier once they do sleep.
going away, I just really try to impressupon parents, keep them well rested.
Try to stick to a similar schedule withinhalf an hour of what you normally are
seeing little infants are much easier.
if they're sleep trained and they're on areal schedule, they can be pretty rigid.
(28:25):
try to keep the schedulewithin 30 to 60 minutes.
Even if it's on the go, that's fine.
Car naps, stroller, naps.
keep bedtime at a reasonable hour.
If it's going to be a later bedtime, addanother little 30 minute stroller, nap
for an infant, things And for toddlers,usually the toddlers are on one nap.
(28:45):
So if you can prioritize that nap,go to the beach in the morning, come
home, have lunch, nap time, go backto the beach, something like that,
that can help immensely as well.
Skip the hottest time of the day of the
Ultimately, people are scared becausethey have dealt with children that haven't
slept, and it's been recent, right?
They've finally gottenthem to a good place.
(29:07):
So I try to just let them knowyour kids have the skills to
sleep well, to remember that.
Do Get back on schedule and when youget back on schedule, I talk about the
controlled wake up, what you were saying.
Controlling that wake up time will thenhelp naps fall into the right timing and
then bedtime fall into the right timing.
(29:28):
And it may take a little bit toadjust, but within a couple of
days, babies and toddlers can prettyquickly adjust back to what I would
say if you fell into bad habits.
Try to eliminate that as soonas possible when you get back.
It can be tricky and your childmight protest, but it shouldn't take
(29:48):
more than a day or two to get back.
I I think that's really good adviceyou, If you have achieved good sleep,
you will be able to achieve it again.
Um, And you know, parents come back tome, they're like, my kid was sleeping
well, and then they're not, and they'relike, I don't know what happened.
And then you start asking themand they're like, yeah, bedtime
slipped a little bit later.
And I started falling.
I started staying with him when he fallsasleep again and be like, Um, One thing
(30:10):
I to in the summertime um, there's a lotof evidence that kids actually without
routines, get a little bit less sleepthan they do during the school year,
which is the opposite of what we oflike, oh, the summers are chill, the kid,
if the kids are staying up super late.
Even if they're shifting their wake timelater, just think about what happens.
(30:31):
The room is getting bright,
Mm-hmm.
They're getting less sleep.
So I would say that to parents,it's okay for the schedule to
slide a little bit, but you stillhave to pay attention to make sure
your child's getting enough sleep.
Absolutely.
And, And the best barometer of thaton most kids is if you have to wake
them up in the morning, they'reprobably not getting enough sleep
and.
(30:51):
I won't say the teenagers lie, butthey may shade the truth if you
ask them when they went to sleep.
There's a cool hack.
Somebody showed uh, at least oniPhones, where you can look at the
battery consumption on Someone's phone
Oh.
see when they stopped using it.
So if you actually want to ask your like,they're like, oh, I went to bed then,
and be like, oh, you know, let me just,I I guess this should be agreed upon in
(31:12):
advance that you're able to look at yourkid's phone uh, with their permission.
You can actually see when theystopped looking at it the night before
like when the screen went off.
if you have parental controls set up onan iPhone, my daughter has an iPad and I
have from my phone to see even how longshe spent on any given thing, like YouTube
(31:35):
sure.
doesn't have social media, so I cansee how long she was on there for and
when she started and stopped using it.
will say the ultimate parentalcontrol at night is having
possession of your child's devices.
for
I am skeptical of any parent whosays that software is keeping their
child from accessing their deviceat night if it's in their room,
(31:56):
it's
I.
allowed in her room at night.
um, um, do you use just Apple stuffor use like Life 360 or something?
at the point of life.
360 I. Learning about it.
So I just use the apple,whatever it is on there.
It shows you screen
time
Yeah,
But eventually I will beputting other things on there.
(32:16):
That's what we know.
I just didn't feel like.
Surveilling them that closely.
But every family makesdifferent decisions.
So I think we should close by talkingabout what do you do if is shifted a
lot later this is incredibly common forme to see teenagers come in and they've
shifted their schedule much later.
So here's what I recommend.
(32:37):
I think for most kids.
plan on for, uh, at least four orfive days before the beginning of
the school year, getting them upat eight in the morning, taking
them up for a walk in the sunshine.
That's all you really need to do.
You don't need to have, make some bigproduction about this, but I would say
for kids that consistently sleepingvery late and I'd say very late is
(33:02):
more than four or five hours later,
Hmm
they're gonna have to wake up for school.
So honestly, they're have to get up atsix in the morning for school, which is a
common wake time in the US for teenagers.
They're gonna have a realhard time when school starts
if you don't make some plans.
Um, And I a couple of recommendationsin And and the first is actually.
(33:24):
You've gotta talk with yourchild about this issue.
If you're trying to roll out somechanges and they don't understand
why or aren't on board, it's justgonna create a lot of conflict.
I of talk to, your kid may be thinkingabout this and be like, hey, I noticed
you've been sleeping pretty You'restarting school in a couple of weeks.
That's gonna be pretty rough.
(33:44):
I think that might bepretty rough for you.
And just talk to 'ema little bit about it.
For kids that are reallyshifted later you can move their
wake time earlier gradually.
You can do that pretty easily,pretty painlessly, about
10 to 15 minutes per day.
And you gotta get them on board with this.
know, getting up 15 minutes earlierday is a lot easier than well,
you've been getting up at noon now.
I just want you to start getting up ateight in the Bedtime is gonna adjust
(34:07):
if you start moving that earlier.
I think it's worth also talkingwith them about what the, if the
screen time rules are different inyour home during the summertime.
uh, Having morning lightexposure can be helpful.
Uh, Opening the blinds in theuh, before your teenager wakes
up can help entrain them earlier.
where this gets really tricky isif you have a kid that's quite late
(34:27):
shifted, like they're sleeping all day.
Sometimes that morninglight exposure can actually.
Have the opposite effect becauseit's early in their circadian day.
Like Imagine you have a kid that'ssleeping from 7:00 AM to 5:00 PM the
the strongest effect for wake timefor for sunlight is about an hour
before you're naturally waking up.
uh, And if you're on the otherside of that uh, the light
(34:49):
can move things the wrong way.
shift work.
Yeah.
Well, a, is a real complicated butyeah, I'd say opening the blinds an hour
or two before when they're naturallywaking, would be the safe thing to do.
And I'd say if this is causing a lot ofconflict in your house or you are really
worried about it, it would be worthtaking your to your child's pediatrician.
(35:10):
it.
Sometimes having another adult who isnot you talk about why this is important
can break through in a way that thefact is we all know even when I was I
don't wanna get content wearing here,I was gonna be say a crap head, teen.
I would recognize that my parentswould be right about stuff, but if
they told me stuff, I still wouldn'tit because they they were my parents
(35:32):
and it's lame to listen to them.
Um, but if another adult I trusted,like my pediatrician said the
same thing, being like, okay,they're probably right about this.
I know, in in involving yourchild's healthcare provider.
And really this is the time to startthinking about if your kid's going
back to school in a couple of weeks.
if, If hopefully we'll get Issue episodeout pretty quickly um, or even it's a
(35:52):
month from just sort of thinking aboutthese things set your child up for
success when the school year starts.
if if your child is sleep deprivedfor the first week of school, when
they're making impression for firstimpressions on their new teachers kind
of learning how the school year works.
Yeah, absolutely.
I don't think that I run into manyissues with infants and toddlers
(36:13):
of shift in schedule, that drastic.
they've had to do something to assisttheir child to sleep, and then now they
wanna undo that when they get home.
a controlled wake up is helpful if thechild has started sleeping later than
maybe you would be leaving for daycare.
I don't see that scheduleshave shifted by hours much so
(36:35):
the, the schedule stuff feel likeis pretty easy in little kids.
biased.
They're getting up in the morning.
yeah, it's more puttingthe routine back together.
Um, and that can happen gradually, LikeIf you're like, oh, you had such a, I, I
would close with uh, for me personally,if you make some changes over the summer
where things are relaxed and thingsare still going well, that's okay.
(36:57):
Anything if it's workingfor your lifestyle.
know, Like sometimes people have thisguilt about being like, oh, I started
falling asleep with my kid at bedtime,my, or staying with my kid till they
fall asleep like, well, do they wakeup at night or are they sleeping well?
They're like, oh, they're sleeping great.
I'm like,
Does it
if it's disrupting sleep for everybody.
It.
It's funny, in the big Bible ofsleep disorders, it's called the
(37:17):
International Classification of SleepDisorders Chronic insomnia is defined
as three months of sleep problems.
So for adult insomnia, it's like beingunsatisfied with your sleep is one of the
criteria for chronic insomnia kids is ifthe parent is unsatisfied with the sleep.
So really, parental satisfactionis a big dimension of this.
it's It's all, subjective.
Yeah.
(37:38):
So listen, that's all I got today.
Arielle, you always have to remindme where people can find us.
thesleepedit podcast@gmail.com.
yeah.
we'll we'll uh, links for stuffwe talked about in the show notes.
And I think the next episodewe're gonna be talking on
Yeah, I'm excited about that one.
That is a big one.
(37:58):
For when people arecoming back from vacation.
Oh man, the struggle real.
real.
nap.
My older one was a terrible napperuntil he was like a year and
a half, and then he was great.
it's rough.
Okay, well hope everyone's having a goodsummer and uh, thanks for listening.
See you next time.
(38:19):
Thanks so much forlistening to the Sleep edit.
You can find transcripts atthe web address Sleeped show.
You can also find video of theepisodes at that address as
well as in my YouTube channel.
You can find me at Dr. Craigcanna perry.com and on all social
media at D-R-C-A-N-A-P-A-R-I.
(38:40):
You can find Ariel atInstagram at Ariel Greenleaf.
That's A-R-I-E-L-L-E-G-R-E.
N-L-E-A-F.
If you like the flavor of the advicehere, please check out my book.
It's Never Too Late to Sleep.
Train the low stress way to high qualitysleep for babies, kids, and parents.
(39:02):
It's available whereverfine books are sold.
If you found this useful, pleasesubscribe at Spotify or Apple Podcast
and share it with your friends.
It really helps as we're tryingto get the show off the ground.
Thanks.
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