December 23, 2025 • 41 mins
Stop waiting to “feel ready.” Here’s the hard truth: confidence comes last.
If layoffs, ageism, or career ghosting have knocked you sideways, this conversation with career transition coach John Tarnoff offers a practical way forward—without applying to 100 job postings.
John breaks down why the old career playbook—resumes, cover letters, and cold applications—fails experienced professionals, and how to replace it with mission-led positioning, warm introductions, and a narrowly defined “superpower” that solves one urgent problem for the right buyer.
We dig into how to turn your LinkedIn About section into a clear mission and promise, rewrite headlines around outcomes (not titles), and shift from task execution to executive-level problem solving. John also shares his own path through eighteen jobs and seven firings, reframing setbacks as data—and momentum.
This episode connects career transition, leadership, and entrepreneurship with a consultant mindset: diagnose pain, map a path to results, communicate relentlessly, and finish the last five percent. Whether you’re W-2 or 1099, the goal is the same—become the trusted thought partner leaders rely on.
If you feel stuck, consider this your nudge: move while uncomfortable, define the promise you’re making, choose the niche you can own, and reach out to five people who can open the right doors this month.
💡 GOLD NUGGETS
• Confidence is the outcome of action—not the starting point
• Why ageism is hitting earlier and how referrals bypass it
• Mission-led career design from the inside out
• Turning LinkedIn profiles into stories and value promises
• Writing headlines around outcomes instead of roles
• The baseball mindset for outreach (.300 is elite)
• Selling strategy to executives, not tasks
• Reframing firings and setbacks as usable data
• Thinking like a consultant in leadership and entrepreneurship
🔗 Guest Links
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johntarnoff/
• Programs & Coaching:
- johntarnoff.com (Company)
- johntarnoff.com/blog (Blog)
- midcareerlab.com (Company)
🌍 Follow The Small Business Safari
• Instagram | @smallbusinesssafaripodcast
• LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrislalomia/
• Website | https://chrislalomia.com
🎥 Watch the full episode on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/@TheSmallBusinessSafari
From the Zoo to Wild is a book for entrepreneurs passionate about home services, looking to move away from corporate jobs. Chris Lalomia, a former executive, shares his path, discoveries, and tools to succeed as a small business owner in home improvement retail. The book provides the mindset, habits, leadership style, and customer-oriented processes necessary to succeed as a small business owner in home services.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
When you're doing that, do you find that you have
to start building theirconfidence back up, find out
where they are mentally beforeyou get going?
SPEAKER_02 (00:06):
All right, let's talk about confidence.
For me, confidence actuallycomes last.
Uh I think you talk, you're anentrepreneur.
You talk to any number ofentrepreneurs and ask them, oh,
you must have a lot ofconfidence to do what you're
doing.
And I guarantee you that most ofthem will say, Hell no, I'm
scared shitless every time I goout.
(00:28):
But I have this vision.
All right.
I have this vision.
I have this certainty.
I've done my research.
I've put all my ducks in a row.
I'm scared, but I'm going to doit anyway.
So I'm confident when it allcomes together and I cash the
check at the end of the day.
SPEAKER_00 (00:46):
Welcome to the Small Business Safari, where I help
guide you to avoid those traps,pitfalls, and dangers that lurk
when navigating the wild worldof small business ownership.
I'll share those gold nuggets ofinformation and invite guests to
help accelerate your extent tothat mountaintop of success.
It's a jungle out there, and Iwant to help you traverse
through the levels of owningyour own business that can get
you bogged down and distract youfrom hitting your own personal
(01:07):
and professional goals.
So strap in Adventure Team andlet's take a ride through the
Safari to get you too.
Oh my god, where's Alan?
I've lost Alan.
Guys, it's just me today.
Small business safari, smallbusiness safari adventure team.
(01:29):
It's just Chris.
I'm just gonna have to rock itby myself.
I don't get Alan to poke andprod and figure everything else.
So again, if you really want toget after him, email me Chris at
the Trust Toolbox and just giveme F.
Alan in the subject line, andI'll take care of it and give
him a big old slap in the facenext time I see him.
But uh, no, he's missing out.
I'll tell you what he's doing.
Uh, we got a great guest today,and I was telling John before
(01:51):
this is that um he did not havethis on his calendar, but he did
have it on his calendar, but hewent for a more important thing
in that here in our localchamber here in Johns Creek,
Georgia, number one city forliving in the U.S., uh, two
years in a row, pretty cool.
Um, the chamber's gettingrevived, and they have sucked
Alan in.
(02:12):
And guess what, everybody, theysuck this guy into.
So not only am I doing thepresident of Neri here in
Atlanta, finishing my term thisyear, but they want me to get on
the Chamber of Commerce forJohn's Creek.
So Alan's going there to vote mein, whether I wanted to or not.
As John said before, cut out.
I'm like, I don't know, man.
Every time you think you'regetting out, I just can't say no
(02:33):
because I love giving back.
And um, you've you've been withthis podcast long enough, you'll
know that networking is huge.
Uh, we know it, we believe init, but we also believe in our
city and giving back.
Uh so I said, yeah, sign me up.
It's a pretty big board.
Hopefully, it won't be too muchtime commitment, but they
actually already tapped me for acouple things.
I was like, all right, I can doone.
I said, I gotta get back torunning this business and I
(02:54):
gotta have this podcast becauseI can't give this sucker up.
So, John, it's just you and metoday, buddy.
We got John turnoff ready tomake it happen.
SPEAKER_02 (03:01):
We'll make it happen.
SPEAKER_00 (03:03):
So you have to be extra funny because Alan's not.
SPEAKER_02 (03:08):
No pressure.
SPEAKER_00 (03:10):
John, we were talking before, and uh, I love
this topic because we talk aboutmid-career life's life crisis.
And um, for me, I didn't havethe midlife crisis.
I always knew I wanted to starta business, um, but I got sucked
into that corporate world, andthen I got sucked into the lotus
that was the corporate world.
(03:30):
I love the bonuses, I love the401k, I love the prestige, I
love my personal suits, I lovemy custom suits, I love my
Mercedes Benz, I love my corneroffice, and I got sucked into
it.
And I went, oh my god, I hatewhat I'm doing.
I can't believe I'm using halfmy brain.
I'm gonna go start my ownbusiness and didn't have what we
have today, you know, all thesepodcasts available to you, these
(03:51):
great books.
I use score.
Uh, score was my first uh firststop.
I use a lot of mentors herelocally.
There wasn't a lot.
You had to go to Barnes andNoble to a bookstore, hello,
Amazon, right, and read all thisstuff.
And now we got all these greatopportunities for people to
really explore this wholemidlife crisis uh or midlife
(04:12):
career crisis, as it were.
So, John Tarnoff, why don't youuh let's welcome the show.
Tell us a little about yourself.
SPEAKER_02 (04:19):
Sure.
So I'm uh based in Los Angeles,I'm a career transition coach.
I focus primarily, if notexclusively, on people in
mid-career transitions.
So that's people can be as youngas their early 40s because
ageism is getting younger.
So early 40s to mid 50s, late50s, uh, people who are kind of
(04:39):
butting up against thismid-career crisis that a lot of
people go through, which reallyis, I think, an expression of
two things.
One, that the um the the careermarketplace is going through
lots of changes, and uh peopleare uh finding a lot of
uncertainty in a very volatileeconomy.
(05:01):
So people are getting firedmore.
There are more layoffs, thereare more reductions in force.
Um, and there is ageism, andageism is happening younger and
younger.
Uh used to be something whereyou'd be in your late 50s and
people would start saying, Oh,so uh you thinking about
retiring?
And you're going, no, I stillhave got a you know a good five,
(05:21):
10 years left, and they wouldgo, oh, interesting, and leave
you guessing about whether theywere they were thinking about
getting rid of you before yourtime is up.
Today, I mean, I have acolleague who is a 40-year-old
uh tech executive, she was letgo in her 40th year from her
(05:43):
tech company in Seattle becauseshe was too old.
SPEAKER_00 (05:47):
That is astounding to you.
SPEAKER_02 (05:49):
I mean, they didn't they didn't admit to it, but
there was no other reason whyshe was let go.
So amazing.
SPEAKER_00 (05:57):
Uh looking at us.
If you're listening on thepodcast, you know that uh uh
that uh you can't see us.
If you're watching on YouTube,you can see us.
So John and I do identify as alittle bit older than 40.
Um and so when you hear that,you know, especially when you
were 40, you look back on yourcareer, John, when you were 40,
um, ages, and you were like, andno, I'm just I'm in fact, I'm
(06:18):
the young buck here.
I'm the I'm the guy who's gonnabe up and coming.
SPEAKER_02 (06:20):
I'm gonna be just starting to get going.
SPEAKER_00 (06:22):
I'm just getting going, 40.
And we're like, ah, those 55plus guys, now they're looking,
they're looking kind of old, butnot me.
And now we're at that age, andyou're kind of going, hey man,
I'm still feeling like I gotsome something to give.
I got a lot of them to think.
SPEAKER_01 (06:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (06:34):
So as you work with these people thinking about
this, people come to you andsay, you know, or they find you,
you hopefully you'll find us onthe podcast, and we keep talking
about stuff like this.
What is their biggest reason?
Is it are they running away frompain or are they running to
something?
SPEAKER_02 (06:50):
Most people are running away.
Um, and they are trying to kindof get back in.
So the the kind of typicalsituation that I deal with um is
someone who has either been letgo, in many cases, they've been
at a company for a long time,over five years, sometimes over
(07:12):
10 years, and they are adrift.
They are feeling completely at aloss as to how to get going in
this jobs marketplace, becauseall of the previous wisdom that
we used to use to get anotherjob, update your resume, compose
a cover letter, find openpositions, send the cover
(07:36):
letter, send the resume, you'dget a reply back.
Chances are if the fit wassomewhat in the right ballpark,
you would get an interview, andeventually within a span of a
couple of months, you'd getanother position.
Today we have people out therewho are out of work for three
(07:58):
months, six months, a yearlonger.
They have submitted resumes andcover letters to dozens, if not
hundreds, of job openings.
In many cases, they don't hearback, they get completely
ghosted.
And all you have to do is scrollthrough your LinkedIn feed, and
you will see multiple storiesevery day of people who are
(08:22):
going through this nightmarethat is taking a lot of people
by surprise.
SPEAKER_00 (08:30):
That is uh astounding.
Again, as somebody who's been anentrepreneur for uh 17 years, I
started in 2008.
You know, I'm not looking for ajob.
Um and so I'm always looking tohire people, as it were, in my
business and my field.
And to hear that, it just wasbringing me back to back the
back in the day when you'reright, when you said, okay, I'm
gonna look for a new job.
(08:50):
Hell, my first job I found outof the newspaper.
Uh I was graduating from uh Iwas graduating from graduate
school back in the early 90s uhin mechanical engineering, and
the job offers I got, while uh Istarted looking in the
newspaper, the job offers I gotall came from people who knew me
or knew of our our institutionand what we did.
(09:13):
And you think about that, thathasn't changed.
I mean, all this all thesedecades, that hasn't changed.
So you're right.
When you when you're out there,you you can put out a hundred if
you want, you could submit to ahundred, but they don't know
you, right?
And so that's got to be reallydisheartening for people.
And that might do you see a lotof people going through
introspection at this point,yes.
SPEAKER_02 (09:32):
Um uh mostly uh self-criticism, or worse, um,
people really lose confidence,they really get this deflated
sense of, well, I must be done.
I don't know what I'm doing.
There's no one takes myexperience seriously.
I would have thought after 20years or more that the
(09:54):
experience would mean something,but no one seems to pay any
mind.
So what what's going on?
It's a completely bizarre worldfor a lot of people.
And a lot of reasons why thishas taken place, uh, but I think
you you just alluded to the themindset shift that everyone has
(10:14):
to go into in order to succeedand get through this, and that
is to shift your focus fromapplying to jobs and using your
resume to focusing onrelationships, building your
network, getting intoconversations with people,
because the only way,particularly as an experienced
mid-career professional, thatyou're going to get hired is
(10:38):
through a referral.
SPEAKER_00 (10:40):
Amen.
I think that uh that speaksvolumes to people who are
thinking about getting intobusiness.
And you look back, the people Iinteract with are people that I
want to network with and uh andI talk with them.
If I get a uh again, LinkedIn,one of the worst ones, we'll
talk about LinkedIn in a minute.
You know, those messages youget, those unsolicited uh those
(11:01):
solicitation, unsolicitedsolicitations.
I mean, come on, man, it's adelete, delete, delete all day
long.
And that's just numbers game.
You're like, yeah, I'm not infor that, man, because I believe
in people and and networking aswell.
And so when these guys arecoming to you and doing this,
you're right, they're losingtheir confidence.
So you must be building up theirconfidence again because that's
hard.
It is hard to go out there andgo grab that ring or that next
(11:24):
thing if you're running awayfrom pain or you were forced
into a situation because we talkabout that forced
entrepreneurship that happens toa lot of us.
Hey, I got let go, I gotta gofind something.
Well, hell, I'm gonna go bet onmyself and I'm gonna start my
own business.
Rockstar, man, let's go.
So, when you're doing that, doyou find that you have to start
building their confidence backup, find out where they are
mentally before you get going?
SPEAKER_02 (11:45):
All right, let's talk about confidence.
For me, confidence actuallycomes last.
Uh, I think you talk, you're anentrepreneur, you talk to any
number of entrepreneurs and askthem, oh, you must have a lot of
confidence to do what you'redoing.
And I guarantee you that most ofthem will say, Hell no, I'm
scared shitless every time I goout.
(12:07):
But I have this vision, allright.
I have this vision, I have thiscertainty, I've done my
research, I've put all my ducksin a row.
I'm scared, but I'm going to doit anyway.
So I'm confident when it allcomes together and I cash the
check at the end of the day, butup until that point, confidence
(12:28):
is not part of my vocabulary.
So anyone who is saying, and Ihear this a lot, you know, I
hear what you're saying aboutnetworking and about going out
of my comfort zone and tryingnew things and what and
whatever.
But I I I want to wait until Ibuild up a little more
confidence before I take thatstep.
I say, don't take that positionbecause you will never get
(12:51):
anywhere.
You have to feel this discomfortand this sense of uncertainty,
and you have to disregard it orlive with it and pursue it.
And it's that old great quotefrom Winston Churchill if you're
going through hell, keep going.
SPEAKER_00 (14:10):
Nobody wants to stop in hell.
You gotta get through hell.
That's right.
I I love that you're right.
Uh well, I just need a littlemore confidence before I do
this.
Nope.
I need a little bit more.
No.
Nope.
Stop.
Those are excuses that's makingyou feel better about having to
go live in that world ofuncomfort.
And you and I were talking aboutsports right before that.
You talk about the world ofuncomfort.
(14:31):
Uh, for a lot of people insports, you know, getting up and
getting ready to hit a baseballwith somebody throwing it at you
at 100 miles an hour, 90, hell,80 miles an hour.
It doesn't matter.
Uh, it's an uncomfortableposition to get up there.
And you're like, did he haveconfidence when he stepped in
that uh batter's box?
And they talk about that a lotin sports, but I think to your
point, no, they're getting upthere going, no, I'm scared
jealous that I'm not, I'm notgonna strike out.
(14:53):
I'm I'm I'm not gonna be able tohit that ball.
I mean, and I'm gonna seven outof 10 times, if I'm lucky, um,
I'm gonna be a Hall of Famer,and that's it.
SPEAKER_02 (15:02):
You know, baseball is a great analogy, and I talk
about this a lot with people whoI say, you know, one of the
things you gotta do is go outand start having conversations
with people.
You've gotta, you've gotta dooutreach, right?
You've got to connect withpeople, go, you know, sift
through this morass that isLinkedIn currently, where you
(15:23):
know, you're constantly gettingthis BS input and and inflow of
people trying to sell you stuff.
Just get rid of that, startdoing your searching, focus on
people that you know already,friends of friends, so your
second-level connections, startto make inroads and ask people
for their connection, ask peopleto get into a conversation with
(15:46):
you, see how that goes, try toget an informational interview
going with someone in your fieldwho is doing something along the
lines of what you want to do, ormaybe they don't have any jobs
available, but they could be areferral source for you.
And people say, Oh, you know, II just can't take rejection.
I just, you know, I'm afraid ofkind of reaching out, and people
aren't gonna want to talk to me,or they're not gonna respond to
(16:08):
my my direct message or whateverit is.
And I say, think about baseball.
If you're hitting 300 inbaseball, you're a superstar.
That's 30%.
That's three in 10.
So don't expect that you'regoing to be making a connection,
a meaningful connection witheveryone that you reach out to.
(16:29):
Quite the contrary, you're goingto have to keep getting up to
bat, keep taking those swings.
Sometimes you connect, sometimesyou strike out, but over time,
over this lengthy time that youhave in your life and your
career to build up this network,you're going to make
connections.
And the connections that youmake are going to be meaningful
(16:52):
ones that will yield dividendsfor your networking plan and
your career opportunities.
SPEAKER_00 (16:59):
So when somebody comes to you and says, uh, John,
I need some help.
Uh come to work with me.
Tell me how that intake processworks.
How do you start that process?
What do you do?
SPEAKER_02 (17:08):
The most interesting thing about the process, and I'm
not a traditional career coach.
I do not come out of HR orrecruiting.
I'm a business guy.
I'm actually come out of thecreative industries here.
I'm a former film studioexecutive working on movies and
TV shows.
I took a sabbatical intotechnology in the 90s when that
was taking off.
(17:29):
I founded a startup with apartner.
We kind of ran it up through thebubble and then the bubble
crashed and we ran it back down.
So I've I've been up and down,both in my movie business career
and in the startup world.
So I've seen a thing or two,I've learned to become
resilient.
But the most important thinghere, and this is kind of going
back to this idea of peoplehaving confidence and uh kind of
(17:53):
regretting that they don't havethe confidence or waiting for
the confidence to come, is thatintrospection, self-reflection
are where you have to start.
For me, this is an inside outprocess.
This is not about you fittingyourself into all of the
opportunities that are outthere, the jobs that you kind of
sort of could have do, could do.
(18:15):
Um traditionally, a careercounselor, advisor, coach is
going to say, okay, let's seewhat are people hiring right
now?
What are they hiring for?
Let's look at your background,let's look at what the job
market is, and let's see whereyou fit.
I reject that approach entirely.
I think it's a really lousy wayof going about it, particularly
(18:38):
for an experienced professional.
Because as you get older, youget more experienced, you really
develop a very specific set ofskills, a real focus and a real
expertise in one area, you'renot going to be right for the
majority of the jobs that arebeing posted.
And by the way, when was thelast time you saw a job posted
(18:58):
that asked for 15 to 25 years ofexperience?
I'll give you a very easyanswer.
None.
Zero.
SPEAKER_00 (19:06):
Zero, not a zip, not a nibble.
SPEAKER_02 (19:09):
Usually, you usually they're looking for seven to 10
years experience, maybe at theoutset for some senior position,
10 to 15 years.
They're not posting thepositions for the more senior
positions because they arehiring those people through
referrals.
Right?
So you want to define yourcareer in terms of what is
(19:33):
unique about you and translatethat into a LinkedIn profile
that tells a story.
It tells a story of what are theroles that you do, the
deliverables that you deliver.
And in your about section, whichmost people use as a kind of a
(19:53):
strange bio or a list of skillsor some kind of a condensation
of what's in their resume ortheir experience section on
LinkedIn, which is your onlineresume.
I believe that the about sectionshould be a mission statement.
It's a conversation starter.
It should be who you are, whyyou do what you do, and where
(20:14):
you want to take it.
You really want to give thissense of who you are as a whole
person.
What's your motivation?
What's the meaning and purposebehind the work that you do?
That's what moves the needle.
That's what gets you into aconversation with someone who is
otherwise reading about sectionsthat read like corporate, you
(20:36):
know, uh a word salad,experienced professional through
25 years of, you know, seasoned,experienced, hiring leading
team.
I mean, come on, this is all BS.
You know, you've got to breakthrough the scrolling, break
through that kind of resistancethat's going on to someone
reading yet another profile onLinkedIn.
(20:59):
And connect with them as anindividual.
And those are the people thatyou want to connect with because
your goal in this inside tooutside process is to build a
tribe around your values, yourexperiences, your preferences,
your vision, your mission.
That's where you're going to getthe referrals by becoming part
(21:22):
of the tribe or the tribes ofpeople who are kind of in your
wheelhouse.
It's not about your skill setnecessarily.
Remember, skills can be learned.
And as a business owner, I'msure you've been in this
situation countless times.
You've got two possible hires.
One checks all the boxes on theskills for that job description.
(21:44):
The other one, not so muchchecking the boxes on the
skills, but you just love thisperson.
You think, oh my God, they aresuch a great fit.
Love the mindset, love theattitude, love the energy.
They can learn all the otherstuff.
I want to hire that personbecause that's the person I want
to go to work with every day.
Be that person.
SPEAKER_00 (22:04):
So you talked about this.
Let's go back to LinkedIn.
You talked about the don'ts, andI uh I 100% agree with it.
Give me some do's.
You talked about the story, um,your your mission value, your
mission statement, your valuestatement.
What are some good things thattactically we could all start
doing right now on our LinkedInto make ourselves look better?
SPEAKER_02 (22:23):
Your LinkedIn headline is not your job title,
it's not your company.
It is the three, four, maybefive value drivers that you
provide through the work thatyou do.
A lot of headlines today, and Ithink this is a good approach,
or certainly a good approach asyou're trying to work this out,
is to make it a deliverable.
(22:47):
If I do or I solve this problemfor this client with this tool
for this result, think aboutthat, right?
Because anyone who is looking tohire has a very specific need.
They're not looking forgeneralists.
(23:07):
Sorry to say, I'm a generalist.
I'm sure with your experience,you're a generalist.
We're all generalists.
We you kind of can't have acareer for 20, 30 years and not
be a generalist.
You kind of appreciate the valueof all these intersecting skills
and experiences and points ofview.
It's not what the hiring marketis looking for.
They're looking for a singlespecialist to solve this
(23:31):
particular problem.
So the trick is to look ateverything that you've done and
can do and think what is thesingle keyhole that I need to
kind of squeeze through in orderto get in the door, deliver my
value.
And then from there, once theysee that I've solved that
(23:53):
problem, then they're going tosay, Oh, wow, this was great.
What what else do you do?
What else have you got?
Right?
Right.
So it's very important to definethat specialty, what I call the
superpower, that particularintersection, that synthesis of
who you are, what you do, whatyou've delivered, what you can
deliver, the techniques, theskills, the insights that you
(24:16):
bring, but it all has to focusin this one area.
SPEAKER_00 (24:21):
I love the keyhole uh analogy about you know, you
got to push yourself through.
Um, I love that the uh the otherpart about you know solving that
one problem for somebody.
Demonstrate that one thing.
One of the things I talk about,even my sales guys here in the
remodeling and handyman world,uh is they do a lot of
networking at BI, which is a uhclose contact networking group
for uh for home services andother things.
(24:43):
That when they go there, you'renot everything to everybody.
You're not just a handyman,you're not just a remodeler.
You could have solved that oneproblem for Alice and
Alpharetta, who had to have thisdrywall fixed before her in-laws
came for Thanksgiving this year,and that way she could be the
rock star in the dining room andnot have her father-in-law say,
I can't believe you haven't hadthis fixed yet.
(25:04):
So uh I love how you talk aboutthat.
So you talk about those stories,and I think stories carry the
day.
As you work with people, and Iknow that's where the specialty
is for you.
How many of these people end upgoing into a corporate or into a
position, and how many end upstarting their own biz?
SPEAKER_02 (25:21):
I would say most of people that I work with, uh I'd
say maybe it's probably about75%, go into a corporate
position, are interested in kindof staying in the corporate
world, uh, trying to figure outa different way in, trying to um
uh really refine their valueproposition so they can
(25:44):
communicate what they're doingbetter, be considered for higher
level um jobs.
I just worked with a guy who isa um very experienced marketing
executive in the uh retail foodspace, incredible expertise in
this area.
Never been a CMO, wanted to be aCMO.
(26:07):
And what I said to him is this Isaid, you know, you're you're
selling yourself too hard onyour experience and your skills.
They want a higher level ofstrategy and expertise.
Stop telling them about all ofthe minutiae that you know how
to do because that's whatthey're gonna hire you to do.
(26:27):
They're gonna continue to seeyou as this Mr.
Fixit guy.
What you need to do, and Ihelped them get a CMO role, was
work with that CEO, find outwhat is the what is the set of
(26:47):
issues that are keeping that CEOup at night, be the solution to
what that CEO is looking to do,bring your strategic solutions
to that person, that's the bossyou're trying to cater to.
And he is expecting you to hirethe people who are gonna fix it
(27:11):
and do all the little minutiathat you dine out on.
He doesn't care about that.
He wants a thought partner and astrategy partner.
So of all the stuff that youknow how to do and you know the
why and the wherefore, that'swhat you've got to rely on.
Bring that stuff to the fore.
SPEAKER_00 (27:31):
That's uh great advice.
I love that you just talkedabout this because you're right.
You're gonna go do what you'rebest at, but what a lot of
people are looking for issomebody's gonna solve their
pain point.
And you're uh the people at thelevels that you're talking
about, CEOs, CMOs, anybody inthe S-suite, they're looking for
people who are gonna be dogs togo out there and solve those
problems that are keeping theseguys from executing on what they
(27:53):
want to do.
So they know that people aregonna be able to get there, but
they want to know somebody whocan have that dialogue with them
and be that peer-to-peer.
And and positioning yourselflike that and solving my problem
has me more excited thansomebody who's just gonna go do
what they do.
I just learned some valuablelessons about that, you know, in
my home services world, is thatI'm trying to solve customers'
(28:14):
problems in homes.
You know, I'm trying to giveback time to fathers who want to
be at baseball games, motherswho want to be at soccer games,
uh, families that want to betogether, people who want to do
it.
And if you're a boomer, guys whowant to be able to play golf or
go on vacations and not have toworry about the house, we start
talking about those pain pointsand people are attracted to you.
Yep.
And I think that's what uhyou're right.
(28:36):
A lot of things uh that peopleare looking at putting on
LinkedIn are all about what youcan do in the deliverables
you'll bring.
Yeah, but what are you doing tosolve my problem?
So as you work with people, andwhat's the name of your academy
or how can people find you?
I want to make sure we get thatout there.
I forgot to bring that up.
SPEAKER_02 (28:52):
Sure.
So uh you can find me uh onLinkedIn.
That's probably the best placeto find me, John Tarnoff.
Um, the only John Tarnoff uhcareer coach on uh on LinkedIn.
Uh and uh I set up a uh acommunity group called the
Mid-Career Lab, which is reallyfor people in mid-career who are
struggling with these issues,struggling with, you know, how
to get ahead, how to find thatnext job, uh, looking for
(29:14):
support, looking for otherpeople's uh stories and
experiences to help them uhthrough this uh through this
hell that's happening in the jobmarket.
SPEAKER_00 (29:22):
So, Johnny, going back to your career, uh, how
many jobs did you have?
You said you were a film studioexecutive in Techstar.
How many jobs did you have?
SPEAKER_02 (29:31):
So over the 35 plus years that I was in uh in
Hollywood and in my tech career,I had 18 jobs.
I was uh, and I I I have thenumber because I talked about
this in my TEDx talk as a as akind of a proof of concept about
why I was up there talking aboutjobs.
(29:51):
So 18 jobs, and I was fired fromseven of them, which means that
I think if the math is stillright, I was fired from 39% of
my of my jobs.
And I I got a kind of a nervouslaugh about that when I when I
mentioned that statistic.
And and I mentioned not so muchkind of as a sick joke, but
really to kind of demystify anddestigmatize the idea of getting
(30:16):
fired.
And I think a lot of people kindof come out of this shame-based
uh perception that if you gotfired, you did something wrong.
And even in a mass layoffsituation, you may get the axe,
but the guy three cubicles downis still here.
What's that about?
(30:36):
Why did they retain their job,but I had to get the axe?
It must have been somethingwrong.
No, there's nothing wrong withyou.
You're living in a crazy worldwhere people are making often
arbitrary decisions.
And what you have to remember isthat there are lessons every
time you face a setback.
(30:58):
So your job is to take stock ofthose lessons and look at ways
that you can use your setback asan opportunity to do something
more, to do something that'scloser to what you want to do,
who you are.
You now have this newopportunity to use everything
(31:19):
that you've gained in this lastjob to put it to work, future
focused for someone else.
Or if you want to do it foryourself, I mean, there is that
25% of people that I work withwho do go off and start their
own businesses.
And the other thing I want tosay about that is it's really
important, I think, foreverybody today, whether you are
an employee on a W-2 or acontractor on a 1099, to think
(31:44):
of yourself as a consultantproviding value to a client,
never as an employee seekingdirection from a manager.
SPEAKER_00 (31:54):
That's great advice.
I think uh for anybody, again,most of our listeners, you know,
you're thinking about starting abusiness, maybe you're even
running a business, trying toscale it.
If you got all of your employeesto think about this as a
consultant providing something,or if yourself you're thinking
about it, you're a consultant,even if you're the CEO of a
company, you're a consultantproviding something to your
company.
That's a great way to look atthings.
(32:15):
And I'll tell you what, you'llapproach your job a lot
differently.
You'll approach that day a lotdifferently with that mindset.
SPEAKER_02 (32:20):
It's about taking ownership, and there's there's
got to be a way for you to findownership in that process,
whatever it is.
And it will it will up yourperformance no matter what
you're doing.
SPEAKER_00 (32:33):
Guys, go check it out.
John Turnoff, LinkedIn coach.
Go check him out.
I'm gonna I'm I know I'm alreadyfollowing him, so good stuff
there.
John, this has been a uh greatstuff.
Love talking about this stuff,mid-career stuff.
You know, by the way, uh, that18 jobs, I was thinking that you
would say like four, because Ithought I was crazy and I was at
five before I started mybusiness.
(32:55):
And uh back in the day, that'sjust not what you did.
You didn't hop much, you didn'tdo a lot of that.
And today, um, if you think ofyourself as a consultant and you
take pride in your personalbrand and what you do, and I
know John's a big proponent ofpersonal brand as well, that's a
huge step for you.
So always be thinking about yourpersonal brand, what you're
putting out there, because younever know where it's gonna
lead, because not every job isgonna fit everybody, and not
(33:17):
everybody's gonna fit every job.
So you guys go and find it out,John.
Thank you so much.
But we got to get to those finalfour questions, man.
All right, I love hitting it.
So, first, what is a book you'drecommend to our audience, the
adventure team?
SPEAKER_02 (33:30):
Yeah, it's an oldie, but it's a goodie.
Uh, The Seven Habits of HighlyEffective People by Stephen
Covey.
It's the kind of the OGmanagement values-driven Bible.
Uh, and I reread the book everyyear or so.
Um, I'm a big fan of number six,which is seek first to
(33:51):
understand, then to beunderstood.
I think it's a real greatinsight on how communication
works.
And I would just recommend it toeveryone.
SPEAKER_00 (33:59):
Uh, highly great book.
That I tell you, uh, John, myfirst job out of uh out of
college wasn't a manufacturingengineering firm.
And I was the uh, it was me andanother guy.
And then after that, uh, theclosest guy at age, we were 24
at the time, and I think ournext closest guy was 36, 37.
And uh, I remember my boss cameup to me and I thought I was
(34:21):
kicking ass, you know, takingnames, doing everything.
He came up to me and said, Man,I think you could probably run
this place.
He said, But until you figureout that you've got to focus in
and get your time managementdown, he goes, You're going
nowhere.
Have you ever heard of this,heard of this book called
Stephen Covey's highlyeffective?
So I uh I made it through fourand a half habits.
I finally finished the book, butI I went all the way in, man.
(34:43):
I had the binder back in theday, the the daily planner, the
weekly planner, the monthlyplanner.
Um, it's timeless, guys.
Uh, you know, as especially withall the electronics and all the
distractions you have, this bookhelps you get focused in.
Love that one.
Great recommendation on thatone.
All right, number two.
What is the favorite feature ofyour home?
SPEAKER_02 (35:02):
It's my view.
Uh, I live in um northeast LosAngeles.
We are kind of uh right upagainst the San Gabriel
Mountains.
Uh, we have this, we're facingwest.
We live on a property with 12California oak trees.
And the uh the sun, particularlyin the summer, sets right
outside of our living room.
(35:23):
And uh I'll just sit out thereon the deck and watch the sun go
down.
And of course, it's changingevery every you know, every day.
It kind of moves back and forthacross the horizon.
And there's one week in thespring and in the fall where the
sun, I call it uh uh, well, thethe name of the of the street we
live on is Lolita Avenue.
(35:44):
So I call it Lolita Hinge.
The sun at sunset just shinesright into the dining room and
the kitchen, and it's like, youknow, kind of in an Egyptian
temple, that ray of sun justblasting in.
So that's like a fun, you know,anniversary every every year to
see that uh that oh man, I amjelly, man.
SPEAKER_00 (36:03):
That sounds awesome to see that view.
Yeah, that's that's beautiful.
You you painted a beautifulpicture on that one too.
It that's uh that's justdynamite.
All right.
Next question.
Alan and I are customer service,and he would say, freaks, uh,
but we are.
We live love talking aboutcustomer service.
What is a customer service petpeeve of yours when you're out
and you're the customer?
SPEAKER_02 (36:23):
Uh follow-up.
I think that none of us dofollow up well, and I think you
can never over-communicate whenit comes to service.
And so I would say make surethat your customer knows what
you're going to do, that you'vedone it, that you've just done
(36:47):
it, and that they know thatyou've just done it.
And do not leave any gaps inthat process.
SPEAKER_00 (36:56):
I love that one.
Follow-up is a big thing.
It's so hard uh for a lot ofpeople because we're always uh,
especially in today's world,we're so in the present and the
now and get easily distracted bythose technology devices we love
to call our phones or thecomputers.
SPEAKER_02 (37:11):
But the the you know, the solution is in the
technology.
The technology can do all thisfor you, automate all this for
you, remind you of all this, soyou never have to miss an
opportunity to touch thecustomer.
SPEAKER_00 (37:26):
You're right.
It's right there in front ofyou.
And that's back to the highly uhhave the effective habit because
of the technology.
You have it right there, it'sall sitting there.
It's not book and binderanymore.
It's just a matter of, but guesswhat?
It's still basics.
SPEAKER_02 (37:41):
Yeah, I mean, I'm constantly getting reminders.
It's like, oh, you have a clientin five minutes, like, oh my
god, right, right, right, right.
SPEAKER_00 (37:48):
Right.
There you go.
We have no excuse.
Love that.
Follow-ups.
All right, last question.
I love uh working on homes.
That's why I started mybusiness.
I got into it.
It was always a fun thing forme.
I was in the corporate world, Igot out of it, but I had a lot
of DIY nightmare failures.
I mean, I've had I've hadflames, I've had water, I've had
nails through the old hand clampthat we like to call my fingers.
(38:11):
I've stepped on nails, as I toldJohn before we got on here.
John, what's a DIY nightmarestory of yours?
SPEAKER_02 (38:18):
So I don't I don't have a particular DIY story.
I I uh as I said to you beforethe the the interview, uh I I
try to leave a lot of the stuffto the professionals.
So when I kind of feel myselftrending towards a DIY
nightmare, I stop, um, you know,have a cup of coffee uh and uh
(38:39):
and and hit and and hit you knowthe internet to figure out who
can I can I call to uh to getthis thing going.
But I will put up a pet peeve Ihave about homework and
remodeling and contracting andall that.
And I've done two fairly goodsize remodels now, one on this
house, one on the house I hadbefore.
(39:01):
And I really, really get socompletely triggered by being
abandoned by my contractor inthe final stages of a job.
SPEAKER_00 (39:16):
Well, as I've often said to Alan, is that my next
kind?
My next company is gonna uhtoday on the trusted toolbox
here in Atlanta and in Athens.
I said my next one's gonna bejust give me three more days
contract.
Just give me three more days.
John, it'll be done next week.
Don't worry about it, John.
It's gonna be done next week.
Yeah, uh, that is the ruse ofour whole world.
That's why I've got the podcast,that's why I started the
(39:36):
training company, the homeservice institute.
That's why we're gonna getmasterminds going because uh we
need to change that mentalitybecause that's not gonna last.
Um, in today's day and age, youknow, with I've got over 1,300
Google reviews for the trustedtoolbox, people can see exactly
what it's like to work with me.
You know what you're getting.
And people are not gonna beputting up with the cheapest
contractor anymore, and they'renot gonna be built because
(39:59):
people put so much value on yourtime today, yeah, even more uh
than we used to.
So um, I agree with you.
The the guy who goes to thatthat's just that's just a death
sentence.
Uh, and it's so hard to get anysatisfaction.
John turnoff, this has beengreat.
That's the uh career mid midmid-career lab.
Mid-career labs.
SPEAKER_02 (40:20):
The labs are do all sorts of experiments on on your
career.
SPEAKER_00 (40:23):
Yeah, let's do some experiments.
Let's go figure it out.
Hey, don't get stuck in a jobyou don't want to be.
And I we didn't talk about this,but one of my big reasons I
started my business was I didn'twant to be 60 years old and go,
I wonder if I could have startedif I had what it took.
I wonder if.
Don't wonder if, go do, go makesomething happen.
SPEAKER_02 (40:42):
Never, never want to be in that in that spot, right?
Go check out John.
SPEAKER_00 (40:45):
Get in John's get in John's uh circle of influence,
get in his sphere of influence,get out there, network, get out
there, be uncomfortable, man.
Go make something happen.
Make this a great week.
Let's go make one, 10, 100.
Let's call it a million.
We're gonna get a milliondollars.
Next week.
We got to keep going, AdventureTeam.
Keep it rocking.
Keep it rolling.
We'll talk to you next week.
Thank you for listening to thisepisode of the Small Business
(41:06):
Safari.
Remember, your positive attitudewill help you achieve that
higher altitude you're lookingfor in the wild world of small
business ownership.
And until next time, make it agreat day to get your team.
When you're doing that, do you find that you have
to start building theirconfidence back up, find out
where they are mentally beforeyou get going?
SPEAKER_02 (00:06):
All right, let's talk about confidence.
For me, confidence actuallycomes last.
Uh I think you talk, you're anentrepreneur.
You talk to any number ofentrepreneurs and ask them, oh,
you must have a lot ofconfidence to do what you're
doing.
And I guarantee you that most ofthem will say, Hell no, I'm
scared shitless every time I goout.
(00:28):
But I have this vision.
All right.
I have this vision.
I have this certainty.
I've done my research.
I've put all my ducks in a row.
I'm scared, but I'm going to doit anyway.
So I'm confident when it allcomes together and I cash the
check at the end of the day.
SPEAKER_00 (00:46):
Welcome to the Small Business Safari, where I help
guide you to avoid those traps,pitfalls, and dangers that lurk
when navigating the wild worldof small business ownership.
I'll share those gold nuggets ofinformation and invite guests to
help accelerate your extent tothat mountaintop of success.
It's a jungle out there, and Iwant to help you traverse
through the levels of owningyour own business that can get
you bogged down and distract youfrom hitting your own personal
(01:07):
and professional goals.
So strap in Adventure Team andlet's take a ride through the
Safari to get you too.
Oh my god, where's Alan?
I've lost Alan.
Guys, it's just me today.
Small business safari, smallbusiness safari adventure team.
(01:29):
It's just Chris.
I'm just gonna have to rock itby myself.
I don't get Alan to poke andprod and figure everything else.
So again, if you really want toget after him, email me Chris at
the Trust Toolbox and just giveme F.
Alan in the subject line, andI'll take care of it and give
him a big old slap in the facenext time I see him.
But uh, no, he's missing out.
I'll tell you what he's doing.
Uh, we got a great guest today,and I was telling John before
(01:51):
this is that um he did not havethis on his calendar, but he did
have it on his calendar, but hewent for a more important thing
in that here in our localchamber here in Johns Creek,
Georgia, number one city forliving in the U.S., uh, two
years in a row, pretty cool.
Um, the chamber's gettingrevived, and they have sucked
Alan in.
(02:12):
And guess what, everybody, theysuck this guy into.
So not only am I doing thepresident of Neri here in
Atlanta, finishing my term thisyear, but they want me to get on
the Chamber of Commerce forJohn's Creek.
So Alan's going there to vote mein, whether I wanted to or not.
As John said before, cut out.
I'm like, I don't know, man.
Every time you think you'regetting out, I just can't say no
(02:33):
because I love giving back.
And um, you've you've been withthis podcast long enough, you'll
know that networking is huge.
Uh, we know it, we believe init, but we also believe in our
city and giving back.
Uh so I said, yeah, sign me up.
It's a pretty big board.
Hopefully, it won't be too muchtime commitment, but they
actually already tapped me for acouple things.
I was like, all right, I can doone.
I said, I gotta get back torunning this business and I
(02:54):
gotta have this podcast becauseI can't give this sucker up.
So, John, it's just you and metoday, buddy.
We got John turnoff ready tomake it happen.
SPEAKER_02 (03:01):
We'll make it happen.
SPEAKER_00 (03:03):
So you have to be extra funny because Alan's not.
SPEAKER_02 (03:08):
No pressure.
SPEAKER_00 (03:10):
John, we were talking before, and uh, I love
this topic because we talk aboutmid-career life's life crisis.
And um, for me, I didn't havethe midlife crisis.
I always knew I wanted to starta business, um, but I got sucked
into that corporate world, andthen I got sucked into the lotus
that was the corporate world.
(03:30):
I love the bonuses, I love the401k, I love the prestige, I
love my personal suits, I lovemy custom suits, I love my
Mercedes Benz, I love my corneroffice, and I got sucked into
it.
And I went, oh my god, I hatewhat I'm doing.
I can't believe I'm using halfmy brain.
I'm gonna go start my ownbusiness and didn't have what we
have today, you know, all thesepodcasts available to you, these
(03:51):
great books.
I use score.
Uh, score was my first uh firststop.
I use a lot of mentors herelocally.
There wasn't a lot.
You had to go to Barnes andNoble to a bookstore, hello,
Amazon, right, and read all thisstuff.
And now we got all these greatopportunities for people to
really explore this wholemidlife crisis uh or midlife
(04:12):
career crisis, as it were.
So, John Tarnoff, why don't youuh let's welcome the show.
Tell us a little about yourself.
SPEAKER_02 (04:19):
Sure.
So I'm uh based in Los Angeles,I'm a career transition coach.
I focus primarily, if notexclusively, on people in
mid-career transitions.
So that's people can be as youngas their early 40s because
ageism is getting younger.
So early 40s to mid 50s, late50s, uh, people who are kind of
(04:39):
butting up against thismid-career crisis that a lot of
people go through, which reallyis, I think, an expression of
two things.
One, that the um the the careermarketplace is going through
lots of changes, and uh peopleare uh finding a lot of
uncertainty in a very volatileeconomy.
(05:01):
So people are getting firedmore.
There are more layoffs, thereare more reductions in force.
Um, and there is ageism, andageism is happening younger and
younger.
Uh used to be something whereyou'd be in your late 50s and
people would start saying, Oh,so uh you thinking about
retiring?
And you're going, no, I stillhave got a you know a good five,
(05:21):
10 years left, and they wouldgo, oh, interesting, and leave
you guessing about whether theywere they were thinking about
getting rid of you before yourtime is up.
Today, I mean, I have acolleague who is a 40-year-old
uh tech executive, she was letgo in her 40th year from her
(05:43):
tech company in Seattle becauseshe was too old.
SPEAKER_00 (05:47):
That is astounding to you.
SPEAKER_02 (05:49):
I mean, they didn't they didn't admit to it, but
there was no other reason whyshe was let go.
So amazing.
SPEAKER_00 (05:57):
Uh looking at us.
If you're listening on thepodcast, you know that uh uh
that uh you can't see us.
If you're watching on YouTube,you can see us.
So John and I do identify as alittle bit older than 40.
Um and so when you hear that,you know, especially when you
were 40, you look back on yourcareer, John, when you were 40,
um, ages, and you were like, andno, I'm just I'm in fact, I'm
(06:18):
the young buck here.
I'm the I'm the guy who's gonnabe up and coming.
SPEAKER_02 (06:20):
I'm gonna be just starting to get going.
SPEAKER_00 (06:22):
I'm just getting going, 40.
And we're like, ah, those 55plus guys, now they're looking,
they're looking kind of old, butnot me.
And now we're at that age, andyou're kind of going, hey man,
I'm still feeling like I gotsome something to give.
I got a lot of them to think.
SPEAKER_01 (06:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (06:34):
So as you work with these people thinking about
this, people come to you andsay, you know, or they find you,
you hopefully you'll find us onthe podcast, and we keep talking
about stuff like this.
What is their biggest reason?
Is it are they running away frompain or are they running to
something?
SPEAKER_02 (06:50):
Most people are running away.
Um, and they are trying to kindof get back in.
So the the kind of typicalsituation that I deal with um is
someone who has either been letgo, in many cases, they've been
at a company for a long time,over five years, sometimes over
(07:12):
10 years, and they are adrift.
They are feeling completely at aloss as to how to get going in
this jobs marketplace, becauseall of the previous wisdom that
we used to use to get anotherjob, update your resume, compose
a cover letter, find openpositions, send the cover
(07:36):
letter, send the resume, you'dget a reply back.
Chances are if the fit wassomewhat in the right ballpark,
you would get an interview, andeventually within a span of a
couple of months, you'd getanother position.
Today we have people out therewho are out of work for three
(07:58):
months, six months, a yearlonger.
They have submitted resumes andcover letters to dozens, if not
hundreds, of job openings.
In many cases, they don't hearback, they get completely
ghosted.
And all you have to do is scrollthrough your LinkedIn feed, and
you will see multiple storiesevery day of people who are
(08:22):
going through this nightmarethat is taking a lot of people
by surprise.
SPEAKER_00 (08:30):
That is uh astounding.
Again, as somebody who's been anentrepreneur for uh 17 years, I
started in 2008.
You know, I'm not looking for ajob.
Um and so I'm always looking tohire people, as it were, in my
business and my field.
And to hear that, it just wasbringing me back to back the
back in the day when you'reright, when you said, okay, I'm
gonna look for a new job.
(08:50):
Hell, my first job I found outof the newspaper.
Uh I was graduating from uh Iwas graduating from graduate
school back in the early 90s uhin mechanical engineering, and
the job offers I got, while uh Istarted looking in the
newspaper, the job offers I gotall came from people who knew me
or knew of our our institutionand what we did.
(09:13):
And you think about that, thathasn't changed.
I mean, all this all thesedecades, that hasn't changed.
So you're right.
When you when you're out there,you you can put out a hundred if
you want, you could submit to ahundred, but they don't know
you, right?
And so that's got to be reallydisheartening for people.
And that might do you see a lotof people going through
introspection at this point,yes.
SPEAKER_02 (09:32):
Um uh mostly uh self-criticism, or worse, um,
people really lose confidence,they really get this deflated
sense of, well, I must be done.
I don't know what I'm doing.
There's no one takes myexperience seriously.
I would have thought after 20years or more that the
(09:54):
experience would mean something,but no one seems to pay any
mind.
So what what's going on?
It's a completely bizarre worldfor a lot of people.
And a lot of reasons why thishas taken place, uh, but I think
you you just alluded to the themindset shift that everyone has
(10:14):
to go into in order to succeedand get through this, and that
is to shift your focus fromapplying to jobs and using your
resume to focusing onrelationships, building your
network, getting intoconversations with people,
because the only way,particularly as an experienced
mid-career professional, thatyou're going to get hired is
(10:38):
through a referral.
SPEAKER_00 (10:40):
Amen.
I think that uh that speaksvolumes to people who are
thinking about getting intobusiness.
And you look back, the people Iinteract with are people that I
want to network with and uh andI talk with them.
If I get a uh again, LinkedIn,one of the worst ones, we'll
talk about LinkedIn in a minute.
You know, those messages youget, those unsolicited uh those
(11:01):
solicitation, unsolicitedsolicitations.
I mean, come on, man, it's adelete, delete, delete all day
long.
And that's just numbers game.
You're like, yeah, I'm not infor that, man, because I believe
in people and and networking aswell.
And so when these guys arecoming to you and doing this,
you're right, they're losingtheir confidence.
So you must be building up theirconfidence again because that's
hard.
It is hard to go out there andgo grab that ring or that next
(11:24):
thing if you're running awayfrom pain or you were forced
into a situation because we talkabout that forced
entrepreneurship that happens toa lot of us.
Hey, I got let go, I gotta gofind something.
Well, hell, I'm gonna go bet onmyself and I'm gonna start my
own business.
Rockstar, man, let's go.
So, when you're doing that, doyou find that you have to start
building their confidence backup, find out where they are
mentally before you get going?
SPEAKER_02 (11:45):
All right, let's talk about confidence.
For me, confidence actuallycomes last.
Uh, I think you talk, you're anentrepreneur, you talk to any
number of entrepreneurs and askthem, oh, you must have a lot of
confidence to do what you'redoing.
And I guarantee you that most ofthem will say, Hell no, I'm
scared shitless every time I goout.
(12:07):
But I have this vision, allright.
I have this vision, I have thiscertainty, I've done my
research, I've put all my ducksin a row.
I'm scared, but I'm going to doit anyway.
So I'm confident when it allcomes together and I cash the
check at the end of the day, butup until that point, confidence
(12:28):
is not part of my vocabulary.
So anyone who is saying, and Ihear this a lot, you know, I
hear what you're saying aboutnetworking and about going out
of my comfort zone and tryingnew things and what and
whatever.
But I I I want to wait until Ibuild up a little more
confidence before I take thatstep.
I say, don't take that positionbecause you will never get
(12:51):
anywhere.
You have to feel this discomfortand this sense of uncertainty,
and you have to disregard it orlive with it and pursue it.
And it's that old great quotefrom Winston Churchill if you're
going through hell, keep going.
SPEAKER_00 (14:10):
Nobody wants to stop in hell.
You gotta get through hell.
That's right.
I I love that you're right.
Uh well, I just need a littlemore confidence before I do
this.
Nope.
I need a little bit more.
No.
Nope.
Stop.
Those are excuses that's makingyou feel better about having to
go live in that world ofuncomfort.
And you and I were talking aboutsports right before that.
You talk about the world ofuncomfort.
(14:31):
Uh, for a lot of people insports, you know, getting up and
getting ready to hit a baseballwith somebody throwing it at you
at 100 miles an hour, 90, hell,80 miles an hour.
It doesn't matter.
Uh, it's an uncomfortableposition to get up there.
And you're like, did he haveconfidence when he stepped in
that uh batter's box?
And they talk about that a lotin sports, but I think to your
point, no, they're getting upthere going, no, I'm scared
jealous that I'm not, I'm notgonna strike out.
(14:53):
I'm I'm I'm not gonna be able tohit that ball.
I mean, and I'm gonna seven outof 10 times, if I'm lucky, um,
I'm gonna be a Hall of Famer,and that's it.
SPEAKER_02 (15:02):
You know, baseball is a great analogy, and I talk
about this a lot with people whoI say, you know, one of the
things you gotta do is go outand start having conversations
with people.
You've gotta, you've gotta dooutreach, right?
You've got to connect withpeople, go, you know, sift
through this morass that isLinkedIn currently, where you
(15:23):
know, you're constantly gettingthis BS input and and inflow of
people trying to sell you stuff.
Just get rid of that, startdoing your searching, focus on
people that you know already,friends of friends, so your
second-level connections, startto make inroads and ask people
for their connection, ask peopleto get into a conversation with
(15:46):
you, see how that goes, try toget an informational interview
going with someone in your fieldwho is doing something along the
lines of what you want to do, ormaybe they don't have any jobs
available, but they could be areferral source for you.
And people say, Oh, you know, II just can't take rejection.
I just, you know, I'm afraid ofkind of reaching out, and people
aren't gonna want to talk to me,or they're not gonna respond to
(16:08):
my my direct message or whateverit is.
And I say, think about baseball.
If you're hitting 300 inbaseball, you're a superstar.
That's 30%.
That's three in 10.
So don't expect that you'regoing to be making a connection,
a meaningful connection witheveryone that you reach out to.
(16:29):
Quite the contrary, you're goingto have to keep getting up to
bat, keep taking those swings.
Sometimes you connect, sometimesyou strike out, but over time,
over this lengthy time that youhave in your life and your
career to build up this network,you're going to make
connections.
And the connections that youmake are going to be meaningful
(16:52):
ones that will yield dividendsfor your networking plan and
your career opportunities.
SPEAKER_00 (16:59):
So when somebody comes to you and says, uh, John,
I need some help.
Uh come to work with me.
Tell me how that intake processworks.
How do you start that process?
What do you do?
SPEAKER_02 (17:08):
The most interesting thing about the process, and I'm
not a traditional career coach.
I do not come out of HR orrecruiting.
I'm a business guy.
I'm actually come out of thecreative industries here.
I'm a former film studioexecutive working on movies and
TV shows.
I took a sabbatical intotechnology in the 90s when that
was taking off.
(17:29):
I founded a startup with apartner.
We kind of ran it up through thebubble and then the bubble
crashed and we ran it back down.
So I've I've been up and down,both in my movie business career
and in the startup world.
So I've seen a thing or two,I've learned to become
resilient.
But the most important thinghere, and this is kind of going
back to this idea of peoplehaving confidence and uh kind of
(17:53):
regretting that they don't havethe confidence or waiting for
the confidence to come, is thatintrospection, self-reflection
are where you have to start.
For me, this is an inside outprocess.
This is not about you fittingyourself into all of the
opportunities that are outthere, the jobs that you kind of
sort of could have do, could do.
(18:15):
Um traditionally, a careercounselor, advisor, coach is
going to say, okay, let's seewhat are people hiring right
now?
What are they hiring for?
Let's look at your background,let's look at what the job
market is, and let's see whereyou fit.
I reject that approach entirely.
I think it's a really lousy wayof going about it, particularly
(18:38):
for an experienced professional.
Because as you get older, youget more experienced, you really
develop a very specific set ofskills, a real focus and a real
expertise in one area, you'renot going to be right for the
majority of the jobs that arebeing posted.
And by the way, when was thelast time you saw a job posted
(18:58):
that asked for 15 to 25 years ofexperience?
I'll give you a very easyanswer.
None.
Zero.
SPEAKER_00 (19:06):
Zero, not a zip, not a nibble.
SPEAKER_02 (19:09):
Usually, you usually they're looking for seven to 10
years experience, maybe at theoutset for some senior position,
10 to 15 years.
They're not posting thepositions for the more senior
positions because they arehiring those people through
referrals.
Right?
So you want to define yourcareer in terms of what is
(19:33):
unique about you and translatethat into a LinkedIn profile
that tells a story.
It tells a story of what are theroles that you do, the
deliverables that you deliver.
And in your about section, whichmost people use as a kind of a
(19:53):
strange bio or a list of skillsor some kind of a condensation
of what's in their resume ortheir experience section on
LinkedIn, which is your onlineresume.
I believe that the about sectionshould be a mission statement.
It's a conversation starter.
It should be who you are, whyyou do what you do, and where
(20:14):
you want to take it.
You really want to give thissense of who you are as a whole
person.
What's your motivation?
What's the meaning and purposebehind the work that you do?
That's what moves the needle.
That's what gets you into aconversation with someone who is
otherwise reading about sectionsthat read like corporate, you
(20:36):
know, uh a word salad,experienced professional through
25 years of, you know, seasoned,experienced, hiring leading
team.
I mean, come on, this is all BS.
You know, you've got to breakthrough the scrolling, break
through that kind of resistancethat's going on to someone
reading yet another profile onLinkedIn.
(20:59):
And connect with them as anindividual.
And those are the people thatyou want to connect with because
your goal in this inside tooutside process is to build a
tribe around your values, yourexperiences, your preferences,
your vision, your mission.
That's where you're going to getthe referrals by becoming part
(21:22):
of the tribe or the tribes ofpeople who are kind of in your
wheelhouse.
It's not about your skill setnecessarily.
Remember, skills can be learned.
And as a business owner, I'msure you've been in this
situation countless times.
You've got two possible hires.
One checks all the boxes on theskills for that job description.
(21:44):
The other one, not so muchchecking the boxes on the
skills, but you just love thisperson.
You think, oh my God, they aresuch a great fit.
Love the mindset, love theattitude, love the energy.
They can learn all the otherstuff.
I want to hire that personbecause that's the person I want
to go to work with every day.
Be that person.
SPEAKER_00 (22:04):
So you talked about this.
Let's go back to LinkedIn.
You talked about the don'ts, andI uh I 100% agree with it.
Give me some do's.
You talked about the story, um,your your mission value, your
mission statement, your valuestatement.
What are some good things thattactically we could all start
doing right now on our LinkedInto make ourselves look better?
SPEAKER_02 (22:23):
Your LinkedIn headline is not your job title,
it's not your company.
It is the three, four, maybefive value drivers that you
provide through the work thatyou do.
A lot of headlines today, and Ithink this is a good approach,
or certainly a good approach asyou're trying to work this out,
is to make it a deliverable.
(22:47):
If I do or I solve this problemfor this client with this tool
for this result, think aboutthat, right?
Because anyone who is looking tohire has a very specific need.
They're not looking forgeneralists.
(23:07):
Sorry to say, I'm a generalist.
I'm sure with your experience,you're a generalist.
We're all generalists.
We you kind of can't have acareer for 20, 30 years and not
be a generalist.
You kind of appreciate the valueof all these intersecting skills
and experiences and points ofview.
It's not what the hiring marketis looking for.
They're looking for a singlespecialist to solve this
(23:31):
particular problem.
So the trick is to look ateverything that you've done and
can do and think what is thesingle keyhole that I need to
kind of squeeze through in orderto get in the door, deliver my
value.
And then from there, once theysee that I've solved that
(23:53):
problem, then they're going tosay, Oh, wow, this was great.
What what else do you do?
What else have you got?
Right?
Right.
So it's very important to definethat specialty, what I call the
superpower, that particularintersection, that synthesis of
who you are, what you do, whatyou've delivered, what you can
deliver, the techniques, theskills, the insights that you
(24:16):
bring, but it all has to focusin this one area.
SPEAKER_00 (24:21):
I love the keyhole uh analogy about you know, you
got to push yourself through.
Um, I love that the uh the otherpart about you know solving that
one problem for somebody.
Demonstrate that one thing.
One of the things I talk about,even my sales guys here in the
remodeling and handyman world,uh is they do a lot of
networking at BI, which is a uhclose contact networking group
for uh for home services andother things.
(24:43):
That when they go there, you'renot everything to everybody.
You're not just a handyman,you're not just a remodeler.
You could have solved that oneproblem for Alice and
Alpharetta, who had to have thisdrywall fixed before her in-laws
came for Thanksgiving this year,and that way she could be the
rock star in the dining room andnot have her father-in-law say,
I can't believe you haven't hadthis fixed yet.
(25:04):
So uh I love how you talk aboutthat.
So you talk about those stories,and I think stories carry the
day.
As you work with people, and Iknow that's where the specialty
is for you.
How many of these people end upgoing into a corporate or into a
position, and how many end upstarting their own biz?
SPEAKER_02 (25:21):
I would say most of people that I work with, uh I'd
say maybe it's probably about75%, go into a corporate
position, are interested in kindof staying in the corporate
world, uh, trying to figure outa different way in, trying to um
uh really refine their valueproposition so they can
(25:44):
communicate what they're doingbetter, be considered for higher
level um jobs.
I just worked with a guy who isa um very experienced marketing
executive in the uh retail foodspace, incredible expertise in
this area.
Never been a CMO, wanted to be aCMO.
(26:07):
And what I said to him is this Isaid, you know, you're you're
selling yourself too hard onyour experience and your skills.
They want a higher level ofstrategy and expertise.
Stop telling them about all ofthe minutiae that you know how
to do because that's whatthey're gonna hire you to do.
(26:27):
They're gonna continue to seeyou as this Mr.
Fixit guy.
What you need to do, and Ihelped them get a CMO role, was
work with that CEO, find outwhat is the what is the set of
(26:47):
issues that are keeping that CEOup at night, be the solution to
what that CEO is looking to do,bring your strategic solutions
to that person, that's the bossyou're trying to cater to.
And he is expecting you to hirethe people who are gonna fix it
(27:11):
and do all the little minutiathat you dine out on.
He doesn't care about that.
He wants a thought partner and astrategy partner.
So of all the stuff that youknow how to do and you know the
why and the wherefore, that'swhat you've got to rely on.
Bring that stuff to the fore.
SPEAKER_00 (27:31):
That's uh great advice.
I love that you just talkedabout this because you're right.
You're gonna go do what you'rebest at, but what a lot of
people are looking for issomebody's gonna solve their
pain point.
And you're uh the people at thelevels that you're talking
about, CEOs, CMOs, anybody inthe S-suite, they're looking for
people who are gonna be dogs togo out there and solve those
problems that are keeping theseguys from executing on what they
(27:53):
want to do.
So they know that people aregonna be able to get there, but
they want to know somebody whocan have that dialogue with them
and be that peer-to-peer.
And and positioning yourselflike that and solving my problem
has me more excited thansomebody who's just gonna go do
what they do.
I just learned some valuablelessons about that, you know, in
my home services world, is thatI'm trying to solve customers'
(28:14):
problems in homes.
You know, I'm trying to giveback time to fathers who want to
be at baseball games, motherswho want to be at soccer games,
uh, families that want to betogether, people who want to do
it.
And if you're a boomer, guys whowant to be able to play golf or
go on vacations and not have toworry about the house, we start
talking about those pain pointsand people are attracted to you.
Yep.
And I think that's what uhyou're right.
(28:36):
A lot of things uh that peopleare looking at putting on
LinkedIn are all about what youcan do in the deliverables
you'll bring.
Yeah, but what are you doing tosolve my problem?
So as you work with people, andwhat's the name of your academy
or how can people find you?
I want to make sure we get thatout there.
I forgot to bring that up.
SPEAKER_02 (28:52):
Sure.
So uh you can find me uh onLinkedIn.
That's probably the best placeto find me, John Tarnoff.
Um, the only John Tarnoff uhcareer coach on uh on LinkedIn.
Uh and uh I set up a uh acommunity group called the
Mid-Career Lab, which is reallyfor people in mid-career who are
struggling with these issues,struggling with, you know, how
to get ahead, how to find thatnext job, uh, looking for
(29:14):
support, looking for otherpeople's uh stories and
experiences to help them uhthrough this uh through this
hell that's happening in the jobmarket.
SPEAKER_00 (29:22):
So, Johnny, going back to your career, uh, how
many jobs did you have?
You said you were a film studioexecutive in Techstar.
How many jobs did you have?
SPEAKER_02 (29:31):
So over the 35 plus years that I was in uh in
Hollywood and in my tech career,I had 18 jobs.
I was uh, and I I I have thenumber because I talked about
this in my TEDx talk as a as akind of a proof of concept about
why I was up there talking aboutjobs.
(29:51):
So 18 jobs, and I was fired fromseven of them, which means that
I think if the math is stillright, I was fired from 39% of
my of my jobs.
And I I got a kind of a nervouslaugh about that when I when I
mentioned that statistic.
And and I mentioned not so muchkind of as a sick joke, but
really to kind of demystify anddestigmatize the idea of getting
(30:16):
fired.
And I think a lot of people kindof come out of this shame-based
uh perception that if you gotfired, you did something wrong.
And even in a mass layoffsituation, you may get the axe,
but the guy three cubicles downis still here.
What's that about?
(30:36):
Why did they retain their job,but I had to get the axe?
It must have been somethingwrong.
No, there's nothing wrong withyou.
You're living in a crazy worldwhere people are making often
arbitrary decisions.
And what you have to remember isthat there are lessons every
time you face a setback.
(30:58):
So your job is to take stock ofthose lessons and look at ways
that you can use your setback asan opportunity to do something
more, to do something that'scloser to what you want to do,
who you are.
You now have this newopportunity to use everything
(31:19):
that you've gained in this lastjob to put it to work, future
focused for someone else.
Or if you want to do it foryourself, I mean, there is that
25% of people that I work withwho do go off and start their
own businesses.
And the other thing I want tosay about that is it's really
important, I think, foreverybody today, whether you are
an employee on a W-2 or acontractor on a 1099, to think
(31:44):
of yourself as a consultantproviding value to a client,
never as an employee seekingdirection from a manager.
SPEAKER_00 (31:54):
That's great advice.
I think uh for anybody, again,most of our listeners, you know,
you're thinking about starting abusiness, maybe you're even
running a business, trying toscale it.
If you got all of your employeesto think about this as a
consultant providing something,or if yourself you're thinking
about it, you're a consultant,even if you're the CEO of a
company, you're a consultantproviding something to your
company.
That's a great way to look atthings.
(32:15):
And I'll tell you what, you'llapproach your job a lot
differently.
You'll approach that day a lotdifferently with that mindset.
SPEAKER_02 (32:20):
It's about taking ownership, and there's there's
got to be a way for you to findownership in that process,
whatever it is.
And it will it will up yourperformance no matter what
you're doing.
SPEAKER_00 (32:33):
Guys, go check it out.
John Turnoff, LinkedIn coach.
Go check him out.
I'm gonna I'm I know I'm alreadyfollowing him, so good stuff
there.
John, this has been a uh greatstuff.
Love talking about this stuff,mid-career stuff.
You know, by the way, uh, that18 jobs, I was thinking that you
would say like four, because Ithought I was crazy and I was at
five before I started mybusiness.
(32:55):
And uh back in the day, that'sjust not what you did.
You didn't hop much, you didn'tdo a lot of that.
And today, um, if you think ofyourself as a consultant and you
take pride in your personalbrand and what you do, and I
know John's a big proponent ofpersonal brand as well, that's a
huge step for you.
So always be thinking about yourpersonal brand, what you're
putting out there, because younever know where it's gonna
lead, because not every job isgonna fit everybody, and not
(33:17):
everybody's gonna fit every job.
So you guys go and find it out,John.
Thank you so much.
But we got to get to those finalfour questions, man.
All right, I love hitting it.
So, first, what is a book you'drecommend to our audience, the
adventure team?
SPEAKER_02 (33:30):
Yeah, it's an oldie, but it's a goodie.
Uh, The Seven Habits of HighlyEffective People by Stephen
Covey.
It's the kind of the OGmanagement values-driven Bible.
Uh, and I reread the book everyyear or so.
Um, I'm a big fan of number six,which is seek first to
(33:51):
understand, then to beunderstood.
I think it's a real greatinsight on how communication
works.
And I would just recommend it toeveryone.
SPEAKER_00 (33:59):
Uh, highly great book.
That I tell you, uh, John, myfirst job out of uh out of
college wasn't a manufacturingengineering firm.
And I was the uh, it was me andanother guy.
And then after that, uh, theclosest guy at age, we were 24
at the time, and I think ournext closest guy was 36, 37.
And uh, I remember my boss cameup to me and I thought I was
(34:21):
kicking ass, you know, takingnames, doing everything.
He came up to me and said, Man,I think you could probably run
this place.
He said, But until you figureout that you've got to focus in
and get your time managementdown, he goes, You're going
nowhere.
Have you ever heard of this,heard of this book called
Stephen Covey's highlyeffective?
So I uh I made it through fourand a half habits.
I finally finished the book, butI I went all the way in, man.
(34:43):
I had the binder back in theday, the the daily planner, the
weekly planner, the monthlyplanner.
Um, it's timeless, guys.
Uh, you know, as especially withall the electronics and all the
distractions you have, this bookhelps you get focused in.
Love that one.
Great recommendation on thatone.
All right, number two.
What is the favorite feature ofyour home?
SPEAKER_02 (35:02):
It's my view.
Uh, I live in um northeast LosAngeles.
We are kind of uh right upagainst the San Gabriel
Mountains.
Uh, we have this, we're facingwest.
We live on a property with 12California oak trees.
And the uh the sun, particularlyin the summer, sets right
outside of our living room.
(35:23):
And uh I'll just sit out thereon the deck and watch the sun go
down.
And of course, it's changingevery every you know, every day.
It kind of moves back and forthacross the horizon.
And there's one week in thespring and in the fall where the
sun, I call it uh uh, well, thethe name of the of the street we
live on is Lolita Avenue.
(35:44):
So I call it Lolita Hinge.
The sun at sunset just shinesright into the dining room and
the kitchen, and it's like, youknow, kind of in an Egyptian
temple, that ray of sun justblasting in.
So that's like a fun, you know,anniversary every every year to
see that uh that oh man, I amjelly, man.
SPEAKER_00 (36:03):
That sounds awesome to see that view.
Yeah, that's that's beautiful.
You you painted a beautifulpicture on that one too.
It that's uh that's justdynamite.
All right.
Next question.
Alan and I are customer service,and he would say, freaks, uh,
but we are.
We live love talking aboutcustomer service.
What is a customer service petpeeve of yours when you're out
and you're the customer?
SPEAKER_02 (36:23):
Uh follow-up.
I think that none of us dofollow up well, and I think you
can never over-communicate whenit comes to service.
And so I would say make surethat your customer knows what
you're going to do, that you'vedone it, that you've just done
(36:47):
it, and that they know thatyou've just done it.
And do not leave any gaps inthat process.
SPEAKER_00 (36:56):
I love that one.
Follow-up is a big thing.
It's so hard uh for a lot ofpeople because we're always uh,
especially in today's world,we're so in the present and the
now and get easily distracted bythose technology devices we love
to call our phones or thecomputers.
SPEAKER_02 (37:11):
But the the you know, the solution is in the
technology.
The technology can do all thisfor you, automate all this for
you, remind you of all this, soyou never have to miss an
opportunity to touch thecustomer.
SPEAKER_00 (37:26):
You're right.
It's right there in front ofyou.
And that's back to the highly uhhave the effective habit because
of the technology.
You have it right there, it'sall sitting there.
It's not book and binderanymore.
It's just a matter of, but guesswhat?
It's still basics.
SPEAKER_02 (37:41):
Yeah, I mean, I'm constantly getting reminders.
It's like, oh, you have a clientin five minutes, like, oh my
god, right, right, right, right.
SPEAKER_00 (37:48):
Right.
There you go.
We have no excuse.
Love that.
Follow-ups.
All right, last question.
I love uh working on homes.
That's why I started mybusiness.
I got into it.
It was always a fun thing forme.
I was in the corporate world, Igot out of it, but I had a lot
of DIY nightmare failures.
I mean, I've had I've hadflames, I've had water, I've had
nails through the old hand clampthat we like to call my fingers.
(38:11):
I've stepped on nails, as I toldJohn before we got on here.
John, what's a DIY nightmarestory of yours?
SPEAKER_02 (38:18):
So I don't I don't have a particular DIY story.
I I uh as I said to you beforethe the the interview, uh I I
try to leave a lot of the stuffto the professionals.
So when I kind of feel myselftrending towards a DIY
nightmare, I stop, um, you know,have a cup of coffee uh and uh
(38:39):
and and hit and and hit you knowthe internet to figure out who
can I can I call to uh to getthis thing going.
But I will put up a pet peeve Ihave about homework and
remodeling and contracting andall that.
And I've done two fairly goodsize remodels now, one on this
house, one on the house I hadbefore.
(39:01):
And I really, really get socompletely triggered by being
abandoned by my contractor inthe final stages of a job.
SPEAKER_00 (39:16):
Well, as I've often said to Alan, is that my next
kind?
My next company is gonna uhtoday on the trusted toolbox
here in Atlanta and in Athens.
I said my next one's gonna bejust give me three more days
contract.
Just give me three more days.
John, it'll be done next week.
Don't worry about it, John.
It's gonna be done next week.
Yeah, uh, that is the ruse ofour whole world.
That's why I've got the podcast,that's why I started the
(39:36):
training company, the homeservice institute.
That's why we're gonna getmasterminds going because uh we
need to change that mentalitybecause that's not gonna last.
Um, in today's day and age, youknow, with I've got over 1,300
Google reviews for the trustedtoolbox, people can see exactly
what it's like to work with me.
You know what you're getting.
And people are not gonna beputting up with the cheapest
contractor anymore, and they'renot gonna be built because
(39:59):
people put so much value on yourtime today, yeah, even more uh
than we used to.
So um, I agree with you.
The the guy who goes to thatthat's just that's just a death
sentence.
Uh, and it's so hard to get anysatisfaction.
John turnoff, this has beengreat.
That's the uh career mid midmid-career lab.
Mid-career labs.
SPEAKER_02 (40:20):
The labs are do all sorts of experiments on on your
career.
SPEAKER_00 (40:23):
Yeah, let's do some experiments.
Let's go figure it out.
Hey, don't get stuck in a jobyou don't want to be.
And I we didn't talk about this,but one of my big reasons I
started my business was I didn'twant to be 60 years old and go,
I wonder if I could have startedif I had what it took.
I wonder if.
Don't wonder if, go do, go makesomething happen.
SPEAKER_02 (40:42):
Never, never want to be in that in that spot, right?
Go check out John.
SPEAKER_00 (40:45):
Get in John's get in John's uh circle of influence,
get in his sphere of influence,get out there, network, get out
there, be uncomfortable, man.
Go make something happen.
Make this a great week.
Let's go make one, 10, 100.
Let's call it a million.
We're gonna get a milliondollars.
Next week.
We got to keep going, AdventureTeam.
Keep it rocking.
Keep it rolling.
We'll talk to you next week.
Thank you for listening to thisepisode of the Small Business
(41:06):
Safari.
Remember, your positive attitudewill help you achieve that
higher altitude you're lookingfor in the wild world of small
business ownership.
And until next time, make it agreat day to get your team.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Two Guys, Five Rings: Matt, Bowen & The Olympics
Two Guys (Bowen Yang and Matt Rogers). Five Rings (you know, from the Olympics logo). One essential podcast for the 2026 Milan-Cortina Winter Olympics. Bowen Yang (SNL, Wicked) and Matt Rogers (Palm Royale, No Good Deed) of Las Culturistas are back for a second season of Two Guys, Five Rings, a collaboration with NBC Sports and iHeartRadio. In this 15-episode event, Bowen and Matt discuss the top storylines, obsess over Italian culture, and find out what really goes on in the Olympic Village.