September 6, 2024 • 45 mins
Tamsin is joined by Catherine & Andy Morgan as they discuss how to turn divorce challenges into a supportive co-parenting partnership and how to create a stable, loving environment for their kids.
Tamsin Caine
Tamsin is a Chartered Financial Planner with over 20 years experience. She works with couples and individuals who are at the end of a relationship and want agree how to divide their assets FAIRLY without a fight.
You can contact Tamsin at tamsin@smartdivorce.co.uk or arrange a free initial meeting using https://bit.ly/SmDiv15min. She is also part of the team running Facebook group Separation, Divorce and Dissolution UK
Tamsin Caine MSc., FPFS
Chartered Financial Planner
Smart Divorce Ltd
https://smartdivorce.co.uk
P.S. I am the co-author of “My Divorce Handbook – It’s What You Do Next That Counts”, written by divorce specialists and lawyers writing about their area of expertise to help walk you through the divorce process. You can buy it here https://yourdivorcehandbook.co.uk/buy-the-book/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tamsin Caine (00:06):
Hello and welcome to the Smart Divorce Podcast.
This is series nine and in thisseries we're going to explore
what makes up the working weekof various different
professionals who work in thedivorce world.
You'll start to understand whatthey do, both during the time
that you see them, how theyprepare for meetings, and what
(00:31):
work goes into the work of adivorce professional outside of
the time that you spend withthem.
I'm really looking forward tosome amazing clients in this
series we talked to barrister,family solicitor, financial
planner, divorce coach andreally hoping that you're going
to enjoy it and get a lot fromit as well.
(00:57):
Hello and welcome to a veryspecial episode of the Smart
Divorce Podcast, and it's veryspecial because I'm going to be
speaking for the first time to acouple who are now divorced but
have an amazing co-parentingrelationship, and they're going
to tell us how they got from thebeginning, where I'm assuming
(01:18):
and I am assuming that it wasn'talways perfect and where they
now, which is a good level ofco-parenting relationship.
So I'm really excited towelcome Catherine Morgan and
Andy Morgan.
Thank you both so much forjoining me, no problem.
So, Catherine, do you want tojust introduce yourself?
Just talk a little bit aboutwhat you do and tell us about
(01:42):
the kids that you'reco-parenting together.
Catherine Morgan (01:45):
Sure.
So I'm Catherine.
I have two sons.
We have two sons, nine and 12,two boys.
I trained as an accountant andretrained into financial
services as an advisor.
We've been divorced for eightyears and I'm based down in the
south.
Tamsin Caine (02:05):
Fabulous, Andy, welcome.
Can you tell us a little bitabout about you?
Andy Morgan (02:11):
Sure, I am a project engineer for an
engineering company.
I've been there many years,many, many years.
I live probably 15 minutes orso away from Catherine and the
boys, so we're nice and close.
I decided to move somewherewhich was between work and the
(02:32):
marital home, I guess.
So we're very close by and wehave quite a fluid share with
the children.
We have fixed days but we'requite fluid in between.
Tamsin Caine (02:42):
We hav e fixed days, but we're quite fluid in
between, so the boys were youngwhen you got divorced.
What was it like initially,Andy?
What were some of the hurdlesthat you needed to get over?
Andy Morgan (02:55):
So initially the hurdles were personal hurdles.
For me, sitting in a new homeon my own quietness and just
myself, was a big hurdle to getover.
That was quite unpleasantinitially, but what got me
(03:19):
through, I guess, is knowingthat we did this for the right
reasons, for the long-termreasons, and the short-term pain
would would be short-term howlong, wouldn't know because the
process just moves on as it doesin your minds and how you get
on with each other.
That that was.
That was a big hurdlepersonally.
For myself, um, the otherhurdles were deciding on the
(03:40):
share of the children who wouldhave them when.
So when I, when I was, um,relatively young, my parents
split up and I saw my dad everyother weekend.
It wasn't enough from my pointof view as a child, I think, is
the main key thing there.
So I wanted to make sure that Isaw my children regularly, more
(04:01):
than just once every two weeks.
So that that was a hurdle toget through.
We came to a good arrangement Isee them officially every other
weekend and every wednesday.
I think that's quite a nice, anice, um amount of time and
consistency for them to, for meas well to still feel close to
(04:21):
them yeah, absolutely that.
Tamsin Caine (04:24):
That's a really good point, because actually
deciding on not just the amountof time that you see them, but
how you're going to structurethat that time is really
difficult.
You know, I've heard of peoplethat well it's, we always have
them half a week each, or wealways have them a week each
each, and we change on this dayand and then it it can get
(04:47):
really complicated.
I'm interested in how, how, nothow the negotiations went,
because I don't need to knowabout the battles, but how you
came to that, that agreementabout how, about when you would
spend time with them I don'tthink it's too long.
Andy Morgan (05:05):
My base point to to Catherine was what I said every
other weekend is, I guess whatwould you call it?
Industry standard, and thatwouldn't be enough for me, now
that my base point was more thanthat, so that that was the
point we started talking andthinking about.
Okay, what would, what wouldn'twork?
(05:26):
Let's let's try and keepsomething that is that is fixed
and it's fixed for the childrenso they know exactly what's
happening when you know as astandard to keep it, keep it
steady for them.
Um, I was quite lucky in thefact that my work were flexible
in the Wednesdays in particular,because I'd have to finish work
(05:48):
early to pick them up.
I'd have to start work on theThursday to drop them at school,
so they were flexible in movingmy hours on a permanent basis.
So that was a big help inthings too, how we came about
exactly on Wednesdays and everyother weekend.
I guess we just both spokethrough it what we were both
(06:09):
happy with.
Tamsin Caine (06:09):
How do you deal with holidays?
Is there a differentarrangement in holidays?
Andy Morgan (06:14):
Holidays yeah, so in the holiday periods, I guess
officially nothing's officialbecause it's between the two of
us, but I do have them for aweek in the summer for a holiday
, other holiday periods thatthey go to camps and do normal
things into Easter, summerholidays.
But we do keep it relativelyfluid as well on on those
(06:39):
periods because obviously we'reboth workers.
So it's it's a challenge foreverybody.
So I'm quite lucky these days,especially since Covid, that I
do work from home so they can behere, they can, they can, they
can be with Kate.
That you know it's it's, it'squite nice and fluid.
I keep using the word fluid forsome reason.
Maybe that that is the word,but for how it is, yeah, it's
(07:04):
all up for discussion.
There's nothing to set, if youlike.
Tamsin Caine (07:07):
I I like the word fluid and I think I think it's
massively important to have thatlike it's fixed, so that
everybody kind of knows wherethey are.
But if something changes, thenyou can.
You can move about that.
Nobody's going to go, no, butit's definitely your weekend or
(07:29):
whatever.
You know things change, don'tthey?
Catherine, how has theco-parenting changed over time?
Because, as I mentioned before,the boys were little when you
first divorced and obviously nowthey're heading rapidly towards
the teenage years.
How have things changed for youas co-parents during that time?
Catherine Morgan (07:53):
probably we've stuck to what Andy said.
You know the schedule is thesame, but I guess it's more a
measure of how we've carried onbeing friends post-divorce that
enables that fluidity that Andysaid.
I mean it is still a Wednesday.
We've had times where we'vesaid, well, maybe we should move
to a Tuesday night or theThursday night, but then we've
(08:15):
always come back to Wednesday'squite a good midweek point.
You know, I don't want them notseeing daddy for four days.
Five days it's too long and Ithink also it's just about
putting the boys always first.
It was never set up just becauseof what we needed.
It was what would work for them.
(08:36):
You don't go from being marriedto not married.
There's a long transition andAndy moving out and getting his
home established, and so alwaysI think we were both quite
conscious that they were 18months and four, but that they
you've just made these lives andand they're still there and
even if your marriage hasn'tworked, they're still there and
(09:00):
they need looking after andthey've been with daddy every
day and they've been with mummyevery day.
So how've been with mummy everyday.
So how do you create a lifewhere they still get a lot of
that?
And so I mean now it's probablymore.
We're more involved than everbecause they're not babes in
arms.
They have to be driven to afootball club, rugby club.
(09:20):
We're seeing a play together atschool tonight that one of
them's in.
We go to parents eveningstogether.
We might sometimes have a breaktogether.
We'll do the old thing atChristmas together and that's a
measure, I think, of thefriendship.
You know we could be veryseparate, but actually the boys
need their parents at sports day, they need their parents at
this, that and the other.
(09:40):
So, without kind of confusingthem that we're still married, I
think we turn up as the teambecause they deserve to have
their mum and their dad thereand that shouldn't change just
because the marriage hasn'tworked out.
I mean, andy will call everyday, often on the way to school,
and if you know if there'ssomething to say or just what's
(10:02):
happening in your day or ifthere's been exams and how did
they go.
You know he's a very, everpresent person in their lives
and we I certainly hope they'llgrow up and think, unlike Andy
said with his, you know thatthey absolutely saw their dad,
knew their dad, had full accessto their dad.
He was involved in every partof their life.
(10:23):
So that's the way I'd like itto to be.
And we work.
Tamsin Caine (10:27):
You know we work hard on that oh, do you know
what that's so lovely like?
I've got a lump in my throat.
I I had a?
Um similar experience in myparents divorce um, the the one
you described and um, when I gotdivorced, that that it was that
co-parenting relationship thatwas vitally important to me as
(10:50):
well.
And I'm interested to know if,because you both seem really
lovely and both very chilled outand both kind of putting the
children in at the center.
So I always talk about puttingthe children at the center, but
not in the middle.
What?
What were some of thechallenges about co-parenting at
(11:11):
the beginning?
Andy?
Andy Morgan (11:13):
I guess a lot of people fall into the, into the
trap, for whatever reasons, ofmaybe the parents are not as
friendly as they could or shouldbe, and pushing the children
against the other parent.
That was one key thing not todo.
They knew we're still a familyinverted commas Still a family,
(11:38):
we're still all friendly, we'reall still happy, we all still
really like each other, we allstill really like each other and
that there's there's thatthere's no um animosity, um that
there was no negative fromparent towards the other via the
kids.
You know that was a key thingnot not to do, because that that
really is damaging for them,really is.
I mean, just slightly offsubject.
(11:59):
We know people that have hadparents that they're ages to us.
They've had parents that stayedtogether for the kids in
inverted commas I guess andthey've been damaged long-term
and they would freely say thatand tell us that.
So that was really a key thingto take away in the decision to
(12:23):
divorce and everything is aroundaround the children, of course,
to make sure they're happy andsane.
They were very young when wedid um split up, as kate said,
very young.
So for them they especially um18 months old and four, four
year old just about vaguelyremembers that I lived in the
(12:46):
house, but not really so.
This is their norm, which youknow.
That's a bonus or not?
Um, because some children,obviously a bit older, they
remember the marital home andthen how it is afterwards, but
for us they don't rememberanything prior to there, which
may be I don't know if you callit a bonus or not, but it is a
good thing and they so far seemokay, saying decent children in.
(13:12):
in growing up, the teenage yearsmight be slightly different
maybe not you never know, andthey, they can be different
children when they're withmyself or with kate.
They really are the things thatthey can or can't say to one
parent or the other, being thatthey're males, I'm a male, etc.
(13:33):
You know that I'm trying tothink of of no negatives, but
positives for them, and I thinkthat's a positive, like that we
spoke between ourselves, andthey are slightly different
children when they're with me oror with with Kate, but that I
think that helps them grow.
Catherine Morgan (13:52):
Ask different questions to different people
and we talk about that, don't we?
We compare notes about that,which is important.
You know, have you, have youhad this discussion or what are
you hearing?
So we're still differently, butin the same way, a married
couple, might you know yourchildren will have different
relationships with mum versusdad, and that that's normal, I
(14:12):
think absolutely.
Tamsin Caine (14:15):
When there are big decisions to be made and and
probably talking about moreabout your 12 year old than your
nine year old, because I'mfiguring that your 12 year old's
probably getting to the pointwhere they're going to be
pushing boundaries and and so onwhen there are decisions about
what they are and aren't allowedto do, are those decisions that
(14:39):
you both make together, or doyou make, catherine?
Do you make decisions aboutwhat they can and can't do when
they're at yours and Andy makesthe ones that feel right for him
when they're at his?
How do you navigate that?
Catherine Morgan (14:54):
I think we probably have talked about the
big thing like when might theyhave a phone?
I think we haven't talked aboutthis before.
I think we're both on the samepath there and I would it.
That's where I think it wouldcreate friction for a child if
they can do one thing reallydifferently to with the other
(15:15):
parent, because that confusesthe child.
So I don't know, but that,innately to me, would be a point
where I'd have to either giveand share the same view as as
Andy, to be consistent or atleast talk about it with the
children altogether.
And we have times where we areall together, you know sort of
(15:36):
picking up and handing back atthe weekends and things like
that.
It's come in, let's have a meal, let's chat.
It's not a two minute drop off,oh, that's lovely.
So there's always time forthings like that.
And we have together had a chatwith our 12 year old about
incidents or the internet oranything and everything.
I think I'd always want to checkwith him, because you are
raising the same child, not notbecause we're in a marriage, but
(15:59):
actually we want him to grow upto be a successful man and
therefore I guess we probablyhave quite similar views on some
of those things you know, andso that that was always
something I'll let Andy comment,but that we had the same view
on about, you know, manners andthe importance of family and
(16:20):
swearing, and you know you nameit.
I think we are still quitesimilar in that regard, so that
there haven't been so far toomany.
I can't think of any, you know,like massive points of
difference.
But I can see that in otherdivorced families that's where
maybe it is painful and thenit's reinforced by the parents
(16:40):
saying, well, your fatherwouldn't xyz, or we'll go and do
you know, and referring to thatdifference of the parents
opinion can be the source ofpain for the children.
Andy Morgan (16:52):
We I don't think we've we've had that yeah, no,
no, big differences on the bigthings, really.
No, we're quite aligned on onjust all of those, which is
quite lucky.
If we're not, we have a goodtalk through it anyway and put
each other's points of viewforward and and come to a
decision together.
Generally, yeah, there's never,never any.
I'm doing this and that's it.
(17:12):
Sorry that there's neveranything like that, which is
quite, quite lucky for us.
One thing that the children dosometimes which is quite natural
and normal is if they're withme and I say right time for bed
or time for x and y, mommy, letsus stay up.
Always does Okay, I'll talk toKate and it's okay.
(17:34):
No, not at all.
So you have to watch out forthat.
They do try, but that's justpart of their learning and
pushing boundaries and learninglife.
Tamsin Caine (17:44):
Do you know what you preempted?
Because I was just about to askyou just that question.
I remember, so I think myyoungest was about 11 when we,
when we split up maybe a littlebit younger than that and I
remember her and it.
It she's not normally like this, but I she'd ask me if she
(18:05):
could have something or if Icould give her some money, or
something like that, and I saidabsolutely no.
And then she found my ex andasked him the same question I'm
like you, cheeky, so-and-so andthen he'd, of course, rung me
and gone this is what's happenedand this is what she's asked
for.
And I was like, brilliant, I'mso glad you found, because I I
(18:25):
think our co-parentingrelationship is is pretty
reasonable, but I don't thinkit's anywhere near the gold
standard that you guys are, thatyou guys are up to, um, so yeah
, that is it.
It's that pushing against things, isn't it?
And I think, as they get older,it's those decisions that that
(18:46):
you're trying to take of.
Am I allowed to?
You know, it's like youmentioned the phone.
It becomes like I'll kind of goto the.
I don't know.
Can I go on my own to the parkin the evening.
Can I go into town?
Can I go into the local city?
And it's those sorts of thingswhere they're sort of
challenging their ownindependence.
Really that starts to be a bitlike like I'm not very
(19:10):
comfortable about them doing it.
But then they've kind of got tolet the reins off a little bit,
I think.
Andy Morgan (19:16):
But I think you're right another thing that's a
challenge is, um, two parents,two children.
You can easily take one away todo a, do a something, do
something they love, um, and youhave the one-to-one time.
That that is a quite a bigchallenge.
Obviously, most of the time Ihave both of them and, being
(19:38):
boys, it's it's been a refereefor fighting and everything else
and you get to know them reallywell.
But the best way to get to knowthem is is one-to-one.
They are different children andthat that for me is, um, I
guess, a relatively rare thing,but when that does happen, that
that is that is so nice.
I guess that's one divorcednegative, that that you know two
(20:01):
parents, two children in thesame house.
That could happen so mucheasier.
Um, we do do it now and again,um, especially if we think one
of them may have a bit of anissue or unhappy about something
.
We'll talk and, okay, let'shave one each and and see if we
can get them to open up.
When you're just one on one, Imean, that's that's, I guess,
the golden time, maybe, if youwant to call it that.
(20:22):
You know that that is achallenge as well to do that,
because you know, when katedoesn't have the children.
She has other things she wantsand needs to do in her free time
.
So that is a challenge piece,but something we do, overcome
when we need, when we need to.
Tamsin Caine (20:36):
Yeah I like that.
That's.
That's a really good ideabecause, you're right, it is
difficult, it's, it's a, I guess, much so.
My children live full-time withme and and it is about kind of
your finding that you get thetime as a person who lives with
them most of the time like ifthey're off at a party or
(20:58):
whatever you get to spend timewith one-on-one.
But it's much more difficultfor the I'm going to say dad in
this instance, when they're not,you know they're with you for a
relatively short amount of timeand you have them both at the
same time.
Finding that one-on-one timemust be it must be much more
difficult but I like.
(21:19):
I like the fact that there'sthe fluidity of being able to do
that if it feels right for theboys.
Catherine Morgan (21:25):
That's really cool and you sometimes see
people turning themselves insideout because it's their weekend
or it's not their weekend.
I'm not saying I feel smug, butthe obvious thing is then
surely, well, then you put downyour official schedule and you
break it because the childrenneed something different.
So, as Andy's saying, you know,it's OK, I'll do this and you
(21:47):
do that with that one.
And I think as people get moreinto a new life, you get further
away from that flexibility.
Maybe, in particular if there'sthen new partners or new
children, or you lose thatthread, I think.
And maybe we're just lucky aswell as we work hard to keep
saying, well, what do they need?
Ok, well, you take this one andI'll do that, you know.
(22:09):
And to heck with the officialweekends.
Um, I think we we say that alot not sure that's a lot,
catherine.
Tamsin Caine (22:17):
It feels like it's a very carefully considered and
um and planned out situationthat you, that you're in, and
and it you know it's.
It's really.
It's really lovely to hearabout um.
I'm interested in um whetherand um.
(22:38):
I can't imagine that this hasever been the case, but has
there ever been a situationwhere I, either of them, have
said no, don't want to go thisweekend or this Wednesday?
Um, I want to be in my housewith my playstation and go on
Minecraft for the whole weekendrather than going?
(22:59):
I'll then go and see daddy andif so, how have you dealt with
that situation?
Andy Morgan (23:04):
go on, andy well, it's for you to answer really,
because I'm sure you get thatmore than I do they.
They're at your house much morethan mine, and that's their
home, that's what they're usedto.
They've got most of their ownthings there, that's their
comfort zone, and so when theycome to mine, I'm sure there
must be times when they say no,I don't really want to go and
(23:26):
it's boring there, or this andthat or whatever they give.
I know sometimes you've saidthat to me.
Catherine Morgan (23:40):
If it, if it happens too frequently so I can
understand it and adjust.
But I'm sure it happens more toyou, kate, than it does does to
me.
I think, um, if say one ofthem's not, well, they typically
might want to be with me andthat's not a measure of how Andy
cares for them when they'resick.
It's just, let's say, you'reinto like day three of an
illness and then it's daddy'snight, well, there might be
resistance because they're stillwanting to just curl up in in
the bed and, you know, carry onbeing ill.
That's, that's just aninevitable.
(24:01):
Um.
I think we've probably, lookingback, been.
I'm quite a tech phobe.
Andy has lots of great gamesand driving stuff, and they're
boys.
So daddy's house is full ofexciting things and it might be
smaller, but there's a heck of alot to do there and it's always
fun and they have very clearboundaries as well.
(24:22):
So I think and I hope that whenthey are there they know
exactly what's involved, theyknow what they can do.
There aren't, there aren't toomany variables.
I wouldn't say there's onebetter house or not, or there's
one strict parent.
There's what I mean.
Actually I probably would theysay Andy's much stricter, but I
mean, but there's a lot of funthere, and and they're boys.
(24:44):
And again, maybe this is thefact of your personal situation.
You know I'm the only female,so I need advice on how to help
them become young men.
And there he is, their dad.
He's right there.
So of course I'm going to bedrawing on that and talking, and
so that's beyond the topic.
(25:05):
But you know, it's just a needfor us to carry on being closely
in touch about our sons and youknow, there's probably times
when they prefer him to me, butthey would anyway, don't all
children?
I often find myself, and I grewup in a very happy childhood.
My parents were together wellinto my teens and I look back
(25:28):
and just think I had a massivelydifferent relationship with my
mom and my dad and I foughtbitterly with one and not with
the other, and I thought one wasvery strict and one was a walk
over.
And they happen to be in thesame house, but they, they're
two different people and theolder you get and when you
become a parent yourself, yousee the flaws and the wonders of
your parents.
(25:48):
No one gives you a rule book,and so that's how I try and
judge.
You know, how will they judgeus?
Well, it was the first timethat we were a mum or a dad and
and we tried to put them first.
Tamsin Caine (26:02):
I know absolutely, andy.
If you were to rewind thingsgoing back to when you first
split up, is there anything andwe're only talking about
co-parenting, not anything elseis there anything that you would
change about how you set up theco-parenting relationship or
(26:26):
anything you would change aboutthat process?
Andy Morgan (26:31):
Not that I can think of off the top of my head.
I mean, I moved close.
I didn't move far away, whichwas a definite to be involved in
their lives as much as I could.
I see them as much as I can.
Um, well, it's never as much asyou'd like to, but more than
enough, and it's fluid and it'sit's.
It's more than just the settimes and days.
(26:53):
What would I have donedifferently?
Um, I guess the ideal is not toget divorced at all happy
family, but that that thatwasn't the the route we took.
We took the route we didbecause we thought it's the best
for everyone, not just in aselfish way, but for the four of
us.
I guess I can't think ofanything I would have done
(27:15):
differently, to be honest.
Catherine Morgan (27:17):
Okay, maybe you've got any thoughts, but I
know I can think while you talkoh, I mean, I think of the magic
spreadsheet that we have likebehind the scenes.
We have a spreadsheet of wherewe are and holidays and anything
that gets mapped out or insetdays.
You know we look ahead as faras we can as to when, like, if
it's Andy's weekend and it's aninset day, then that's the
Friday.
(27:37):
If there's a bank holiday, wellthen it's.
If you've got them that weekend, then that's also the Monday,
just, and we're both veryorganized people.
So, again, it just works likethat.
But we have a spreadsheet everyyear.
You know we roll it forward.
I could probably know officiallywhat I'm doing in November in
2025, because it's just yours,mine, yours, mine, yours, mine.
(27:57):
It's not, it's just the benefitof Excel, but there's
flexibility to change all that.
You know, with big events weneed.
But it works like that.
The boys know it, it, we knowit, so it's it's like a little
system.
I suppose that we we've stuckto um and it's getting things
like that in place and justputting them first, because you
(28:21):
can spend a huge amount of timeand energy and money and emotion
dealing with your ownrelationship and it's a game
changer once you have kids,you've brought lives into the
world and you know whatever'shappened between you.
There's other humans that needto be managed and to try and not
, you know raise people that arebroken and damaged and look
(28:44):
back at their childhood ratherthan look forward into what
they're going to do.
Tamsin Caine (28:59):
Yeah, it's important to give it a thought.
That sounds dark?
No, not at all.
When you, um, when you weregoing through the process of
getting divorced, did you haveother than your amazing sounding
spreadsheet?
Did you have a parenting plan?
Because I know this issomething that a lot of divorce
coaches talk about putting intoplace a parenting plan and I
kind of.
It's always struck me thatputting into a parent, putting a
parenting plan in place whenthe children are 18 months and
(29:22):
four in your case, that thingsare going to change about what's
in there, like as they getolder and older, and I just
wondered if it was somethingthat you'd put in place.
Andy Morgan (29:34):
Not officially.
No, I think if circumstancesbetween us were different, not
as close or friendly, thensomething official would need to
be put in place, whatever theyhave in a standard parenting
plan.
But no, nothing official.
Just we would initially, okay,let's see how it goes with the
every other weekend and everyWednesday, let's see how that
(29:55):
pans out for us in our lives,and especially the kids lives,
and how, how they adapt to that,how happy or unhappy they are
with it, and go from there andobviously we could change it
whenever we wished.
So there was, there was noofficial parenting plan.
I don't even know what would bein, be in one, you know, to be
honest, but being needed in, in,in in a situation where people
(30:18):
are not so friendly, talkative,open, etc.
Tamsin Caine (30:21):
Obviously it'd be needed then for sure yeah, I
think you're right, I think it.
I can see it not really beingneeded between the two of you,
but I think if there's certainlyan animosity or differences of
opinion or, you know, dealingwith certain situations, it
probably is needed.
But, um, yeah, I like, I likeyour spreadsheet.
(30:44):
That all sounds good.
Catherine Morgan (30:49):
If also if you know money is really tight and
that's often the way when you'vegot to create two homes, you
know, maybe perhaps a lot offamilies really have to kind of
say, right, who will?
Who will buy the uniform or whowill buy the football kit?
Or you know, I can see youalmost maybe need a statement of
intent or something which whichwe haven't between us, and I'm
(31:09):
aware of that as well.
I think you know we're probablyfortunate, being in an affluent
part of the country.
You know we managed to get ourdivorce done, and so that hasn't
been a real problem for us, butit might well be for lots of
families, and so it's abouthaving clarity.
Guess up front, and if you need,as well as your own financial
(31:31):
settlement, if you need lots ofdetail about paying for
children's things, then you knoweverything and anything you can
write down and using goodadvisors and solicitors and so
on to yeah, maybe there'scontent in a plan like that or
chapter headings that can helpparents who are newly divorced
to think you might not know itnow, but in a few years you're
(31:53):
going to need X and Y, becausethat's just the fact that none
of us quite know what we'reheading into as parents.
I mean, ours were at nurseryand it was quite regimented, so
that was the routine.
We weren't really setting it.
Our kids were in a, they werein the routine, they were in and
, and then infant school andschool.
You know so.
Andy Morgan (32:15):
But yeah, I can see the processes would be good for
some families when they startas amicable as everything sounds
, that there are still pointswhere you're at loggerheads and
you're maybe not enemies, butthere are points where you're
battling against each other.
The financials is one, ofcourse, and that will be for
(32:37):
every divorce.
I guess the financials were one.
The other one was something wedidn't think about until I
physically moved out, which wasall the possessions in the house
, who has what?
That was something that until Imoved out out, we didn't
discuss and think about.
So then we had the discussionabout that.
I want this, I want that, butthey I think, especially the
(32:57):
financials, they were the two,um hardest parts.
And I just remember, when wefinished the financial chats
between us, um, we had a hug anda cuddle and said, right,
that's done now let's move on.
We're friends again, carry on,let's do everything, everything
as we should for the kids andmove on and get this done as
smoothly as we can.
(33:17):
And obviously that was theintroduction of the children to
the idea of daddy's not hereanymore and there's another
house.
Um, that was a challenge on onthe kit side not, not too big, I
mean, excuse me, kate wouldcome, come to my house,
obviously, before the childrensaw it, um, got comfortable with
(33:39):
it, what was here, how it was,and then first few times kate
would come with the children, sothey didn't see it as a mental
mummies and daddies, it's everyeverybody's.
And, as Kate said, when Idropped them off I stayed out
for a while, or I pop in on anevening from nearby, so they
don't see it as adifferentiation, differentiation
(34:01):
or a divide.
They see it as everything iseverybody's that's a really good
point.
Catherine Morgan (34:05):
I thought about that physicality of the
place, as in, you know, andy'swelcome in my house.
I'm welcoming his.
I sat my exams at his.
He had a better internet so Iwent around to do some of my
exams with it.
You know, like it's a measureof that, I would hate the boys
to feel that there's a placethat mummy can't go or that
(34:27):
daddy can't come.
That again, that just seemsreally sad.
If that was the case, becausethey're both places that they
both go, um, I remember a bit of, like, you know, making sure
that we had enough pants andsocks at daddy's and that sort
of just.
It's extra work.
You have to think ahead and beplanned and in some cases just
have two of everything, whichcosts more money, but it's less
(34:50):
so as they get older becausethey manage themselves a bit
more.
They know they need to taketheir you know, tennis racket or
football shirt, you know.
Otherwise they're the ones thatlose out and that's just part
of teaching them to grow up.
So it's got easier over theyears.
Tamsin Caine (35:04):
Absolutely on the subject of finances, andy I'm,
I'm interested in how younavigate, not spoiling them when
you see them, perhaps less thanyou.
I mean, in another world.
We see our children every day,so in it, do you, do you manage
to not spoil them rotten and howdo you manage that?
Andy Morgan (35:29):
um, I guess I do because I see them regularly.
So it's not a case of I seethem once a month.
I've got to treat them so theylike me and bond with me the
bribes, I guess.
So it's not quite like that,because I see them quite often.
Um, they always want everything, as all children do, and I
don't just buy them thingsbecause they ask and beg 50
(35:51):
times and just to shut them up.
I do try and make them learnthings in life.
So if they want football cards,if they want to to do an x and
y, okay, no problem.
What are you going to do for me?
What, what?
What are you going to do toearn?
What are you going to do toearn that?
Right?
So they would sweep somewhere,cut the grass and whatever else.
So I don't see myself as awalkover there, if you know what
(36:15):
I mean, and I don't feel I haveto shower them with money and
gifts to get them to like me,because I do see them regularly.
I think maybe if I didn't seethem as much, it may be a
slightly different story, Ithink.
Catherine Morgan (36:32):
But no, it's.
Yeah, andy's secret weapon ischocolate Darth Vader's.
He has a like an ice tray thatyou and I might fill with water,
but he fills with dairy milkand they're in the shape of
Darth Vader and the only thingthat they consistently ask for
is if daddy's coming has, has hegot any chocolate Darth Vader's
?
Where are the chocolate DarthVader's?
(36:53):
And that's a very cheap but butyou know simple tool to make
children very happy.
It works.
Tamsin Caine (36:58):
a treat amazing, amazing, how.
How do you so?
Again, kind of on the on thekind of gifting and spoiling, my
experience is that wherethere's the parents live in
different houses, they getdouble at Christmas and for
birthdays.
How?
Andy Morgan (37:20):
do you?
Tamsin Caine (37:21):
manage that.
Andy Morgan (37:22):
Sometimes, if they want a large present, we would
club together a bike orsomething that's quite expensive
.
We would club together a bikeor something that's that's quite
expensive, we would clubtogether.
But other other times, I meangenerally that they do get two
sets of presents, to be honest,um, two sets of holidays, I mean
that is a bonus, big bonus fromtheir point of view.
But we do we talk betweenourselves to make sure either
(37:45):
side of our families don'tduplicate on on what we, we do
buy.
Then we talk about things theywant, the value of things.
How do we share the load andnot duplicate and not over
overindulging like I guess, yeah, yeah oh, I'm glad there's some
.
Catherine Morgan (38:02):
There's some things that you guys do that
normal co-parents do I I thinkalso it's only the present from
mum and dad, because I mean thegrandparents on Andy's side,
there's grandparents on my side.
They would all probably havebought the children presents
anyway.
So it's, it's not doubleeverything.
We just try and coordinate whateach of us are buying and
(38:25):
stocking fillers and things likethat, um, and we try and have a
day at Christmas where we'retogether and we have.
You know, my mother-in-law isstill my mother-in-law and I
love her dearly and I don't wanther to not see the children,
you know so.
So we do, we do a lot ofChristmas, but I guess that does
require you to get on with eachother, um the point.
Andy Morgan (38:47):
Yeah, christmas is always a discussion point.
We've got into a good rhythmwhich is is the same just about
every year.
So I like to be with themchristmas eve, christmas day
morning.
So what we generally do it is Iwould would go to their main
house and be with them for thatperiod and then Kate would take
(39:08):
them away to see her familyChristmas day afternoon, boxing
day, and then I would take themback and then take them to see
my family for the rest of thebreak.
So we have a quite a good fluidpiece there.
I can see where for others thatwould be always the challenge
of I want them Christmas day,now I want them Christmas day.
(39:29):
We're lucky we don't don't havethat when I guess if that was
the case we would maybealternate each year.
Tamsin Caine (39:36):
We haven't got to that case at that point, luckily
yeah, it's a different,difficult one to navigate that
we, we um alternate, I like.
I like having them Christmas,even Christmas day morning.
For me, especially when they'relittle, those are their little
faces on Christmas morning, it'sjust like something you can't
(39:58):
beat.
But I know my ex appreciatesthat as well.
So we've always said alternateChristmas Eve night and
Christmas morning and thenswitch around at kind of
lunchtime and then the otherperson has them for the rest of
Christmas day.
So you either get Christmasdinner or you get Christmas
morning and I kind of think,yeah, if you can't spend it
(40:19):
together, that is one way of youknow making sure that you, you
both benefit at least some yearsfrom that.
Catherine Morgan (40:26):
So I think they'd also be sad if, if they
you know, there'll be times whenwe're doing something and the
boys will say what about daddy?
So you know that, and thatdoesn't mean, can daddy come and
we're doing it before again,but it means that you know
they're they're keen to knowwhat daddy's doing.
So that's again another reasonto not have long periods of time
(40:48):
where you've, you know,excluded daddy, or vice versa, I
think, because they are awareabsolutely think of times of
negatives over the years ofbeing divorced.
Andy Morgan (41:01):
So if I'm doing something with them, that and
they're having just an amazingtime, I think oh, it'd be great
if their mum could see this aswell that that's a bit of a
slight sad point, or if you'reon holiday, um, the same sort of
theory they're having a greattime, lovely timing, oh, I wish
someone could see this.
But we do a lot of these days.
It's great with phones andcameras, video and photos, and
(41:22):
if I'm away with them theweekend, I'll send them to kate,
just so she can see what we'reup to, what's going on, what
we're doing, how happy they are,etc.
So that that helps cover it, Iguess.
Yeah, that is one one negativeof being separate, of course.
Tamsin Caine (41:36):
Yeah oh, that's lovely.
I like that.
That's really cool.
We have been talking for agesand, sadly, are coming to the
end of our time together.
Andy Morgan (41:47):
I just wondered if there was any any final piece of
advice that either of you havefor our listeners yeah, there's
one, one thing that I find beingthe person that doesn't have
them the most so generally it'sthe, it's the dad that has this
is say, I'll have them from afriday afternoon evening onwards
(42:08):
.
I'm used to living on my own,they're used to living with Kate
.
There's not all the time, butsometimes on a Friday evening.
There's an adjustment periodboth for myself and for them, um
and so there's arguments,wouldn't say there's tension,
but there's an adjustment periodwhere you get used to each
other again.
They get used to the way I am,I get used to the way they are,
(42:31):
um, not frosty, not odd, butjust just something to to be
aware of.
And then the Saturday onwardsit is it's great, we're all in
the same wavelength andeverything's good.
So, but that's another justthing to think about for the
person that doesn't have themtoo often or as often good
advice.
Tamsin Caine (42:50):
I like that anything from you, catherine
just put them at the center.
Catherine Morgan (42:56):
You know, assuming you wanted children in
the first place, they are, and Isay this at least once a week
to someone in business or aparent at school or a friend
divorcing.
I always say they're the bestthing that came out of the years
that we had together.
So you know what's not totreasure and you know so.
Tamsin Caine (43:15):
Yeah, oh, thank you so much.
That's such a lovely, lovelypoint to finish on.
Thank you ever so much forjoining me.
I've really enjoyed thatconversation and I just think
it's going to be so incrediblyuseful for so many people.
And you know, I'm sure nobodyever tells you this, but you're
doing an amazing job.
And, yeah, just my heart goesout to both of you for doing
(43:41):
such a great job and I thinkmany people get told as parents,
that we're doing a good job.
But, as you said before,there's no rule book and it's
fantastic, so you thanks verymuch, hi, and I hope you enjoyed
that episode of the smartdivorce podcast.
(44:02):
If you would like to get intouch, please have a look in the
show notes for our details orgo onto the website, www.
smartdivorce.
co.
uk.
Also, if you are listening onapple podcasts or on spotify and
you wouldn't mind leaving us alovely five-star review, that
would be fantastic.
I know that lots of ourlisteners are finding this is
(44:25):
incredibly helpful in theirjourney through separation,
divorce and dissolving a civilpartnership.
Also, if you would like somefurther support, we do have a
facebook group now.
It's called separation, divorceand dissolution uk.
Please do go on to facebook,search up the group and we'd be
(44:47):
delighted to have you join us.
The one thing I would say is doplease answer their membership
questions.
Okay, have a great day and takecare.
Hello and welcome to the Smart Divorce Podcast.
This is series nine and in thisseries we're going to explore
what makes up the working weekof various different
professionals who work in thedivorce world.
You'll start to understand whatthey do, both during the time
that you see them, how theyprepare for meetings, and what
(00:31):
work goes into the work of adivorce professional outside of
the time that you spend withthem.
I'm really looking forward tosome amazing clients in this
series we talked to barrister,family solicitor, financial
planner, divorce coach andreally hoping that you're going
to enjoy it and get a lot fromit as well.
(00:57):
Hello and welcome to a veryspecial episode of the Smart
Divorce Podcast, and it's veryspecial because I'm going to be
speaking for the first time to acouple who are now divorced but
have an amazing co-parentingrelationship, and they're going
to tell us how they got from thebeginning, where I'm assuming
(01:18):
and I am assuming that it wasn'talways perfect and where they
now, which is a good level ofco-parenting relationship.
So I'm really excited towelcome Catherine Morgan and
Andy Morgan.
Thank you both so much forjoining me, no problem.
So, Catherine, do you want tojust introduce yourself?
Just talk a little bit aboutwhat you do and tell us about
(01:42):
the kids that you'reco-parenting together.
Catherine Morgan (01:45):
Sure.
So I'm Catherine.
I have two sons.
We have two sons, nine and 12,two boys.
I trained as an accountant andretrained into financial
services as an advisor.
We've been divorced for eightyears and I'm based down in the
south.
Tamsin Caine (02:05):
Fabulous, Andy, welcome.
Can you tell us a little bitabout about you?
Andy Morgan (02:11):
Sure, I am a project engineer for an
engineering company.
I've been there many years,many, many years.
I live probably 15 minutes orso away from Catherine and the
boys, so we're nice and close.
I decided to move somewherewhich was between work and the
(02:32):
marital home, I guess.
So we're very close by and wehave quite a fluid share with
the children.
We have fixed days but we'requite fluid in between.
Tamsin Caine (02:42):
We hav e fixed days, but we're quite fluid in
between, so the boys were youngwhen you got divorced.
What was it like initially,Andy?
What were some of the hurdlesthat you needed to get over?
Andy Morgan (02:55):
So initially the hurdles were personal hurdles.
For me, sitting in a new homeon my own quietness and just
myself, was a big hurdle to getover.
That was quite unpleasantinitially, but what got me
(03:19):
through, I guess, is knowingthat we did this for the right
reasons, for the long-termreasons, and the short-term pain
would would be short-term howlong, wouldn't know because the
process just moves on as it doesin your minds and how you get
on with each other.
That that was.
That was a big hurdlepersonally.
For myself, um, the otherhurdles were deciding on the
(03:40):
share of the children who wouldhave them when.
So when I, when I was, um,relatively young, my parents
split up and I saw my dad everyother weekend.
It wasn't enough from my pointof view as a child, I think, is
the main key thing there.
So I wanted to make sure that Isaw my children regularly, more
(04:01):
than just once every two weeks.
So that that was a hurdle toget through.
We came to a good arrangement Isee them officially every other
weekend and every wednesday.
I think that's quite a nice, anice, um amount of time and
consistency for them to, for meas well to still feel close to
(04:21):
them yeah, absolutely that.
Tamsin Caine (04:24):
That's a really good point, because actually
deciding on not just the amountof time that you see them, but
how you're going to structurethat that time is really
difficult.
You know, I've heard of peoplethat well it's, we always have
them half a week each, or wealways have them a week each
each, and we change on this dayand and then it it can get
(04:47):
really complicated.
I'm interested in how, how, nothow the negotiations went,
because I don't need to knowabout the battles, but how you
came to that, that agreementabout how, about when you would
spend time with them I don'tthink it's too long.
Andy Morgan (05:05):
My base point to to Catherine was what I said every
other weekend is, I guess whatwould you call it?
Industry standard, and thatwouldn't be enough for me, now
that my base point was more thanthat, so that that was the
point we started talking andthinking about.
Okay, what would, what wouldn'twork?
(05:26):
Let's let's try and keepsomething that is that is fixed
and it's fixed for the childrenso they know exactly what's
happening when you know as astandard to keep it, keep it
steady for them.
Um, I was quite lucky in thefact that my work were flexible
in the Wednesdays in particular,because I'd have to finish work
(05:48):
early to pick them up.
I'd have to start work on theThursday to drop them at school,
so they were flexible in movingmy hours on a permanent basis.
So that was a big help inthings too, how we came about
exactly on Wednesdays and everyother weekend.
I guess we just both spokethrough it what we were both
(06:09):
happy with.
Tamsin Caine (06:09):
How do you deal with holidays?
Is there a differentarrangement in holidays?
Andy Morgan (06:14):
Holidays yeah, so in the holiday periods, I guess
officially nothing's officialbecause it's between the two of
us, but I do have them for aweek in the summer for a holiday
, other holiday periods thatthey go to camps and do normal
things into Easter, summerholidays.
But we do keep it relativelyfluid as well on on those
(06:39):
periods because obviously we'reboth workers.
So it's it's a challenge foreverybody.
So I'm quite lucky these days,especially since Covid, that I
do work from home so they can behere, they can, they can, they
can be with Kate.
That you know it's it's, it'squite nice and fluid.
I keep using the word fluid forsome reason.
Maybe that that is the word,but for how it is, yeah, it's
(07:04):
all up for discussion.
There's nothing to set, if youlike.
Tamsin Caine (07:07):
I I like the word fluid and I think I think it's
massively important to have thatlike it's fixed, so that
everybody kind of knows wherethey are.
But if something changes, thenyou can.
You can move about that.
Nobody's going to go, no, butit's definitely your weekend or
(07:29):
whatever.
You know things change, don'tthey?
Catherine, how has theco-parenting changed over time?
Because, as I mentioned before,the boys were little when you
first divorced and obviously nowthey're heading rapidly towards
the teenage years.
How have things changed for youas co-parents during that time?
Catherine Morgan (07:53):
probably we've stuck to what Andy said.
You know the schedule is thesame, but I guess it's more a
measure of how we've carried onbeing friends post-divorce that
enables that fluidity that Andysaid.
I mean it is still a Wednesday.
We've had times where we'vesaid, well, maybe we should move
to a Tuesday night or theThursday night, but then we've
(08:15):
always come back to Wednesday'squite a good midweek point.
You know, I don't want them notseeing daddy for four days.
Five days it's too long and Ithink also it's just about
putting the boys always first.
It was never set up just becauseof what we needed.
It was what would work for them.
(08:36):
You don't go from being marriedto not married.
There's a long transition andAndy moving out and getting his
home established, and so alwaysI think we were both quite
conscious that they were 18months and four, but that they
you've just made these lives andand they're still there and
even if your marriage hasn'tworked, they're still there and
(09:00):
they need looking after andthey've been with daddy every
day and they've been with mummyevery day.
So how've been with mummy everyday.
So how do you create a lifewhere they still get a lot of
that?
And so I mean now it's probablymore.
We're more involved than everbecause they're not babes in
arms.
They have to be driven to afootball club, rugby club.
(09:20):
We're seeing a play together atschool tonight that one of
them's in.
We go to parents eveningstogether.
We might sometimes have a breaktogether.
We'll do the old thing atChristmas together and that's a
measure, I think, of thefriendship.
You know we could be veryseparate, but actually the boys
need their parents at sports day, they need their parents at
this, that and the other.
(09:40):
So, without kind of confusingthem that we're still married, I
think we turn up as the teambecause they deserve to have
their mum and their dad thereand that shouldn't change just
because the marriage hasn'tworked out.
I mean, andy will call everyday, often on the way to school,
and if you know if there'ssomething to say or just what's
(10:02):
happening in your day or ifthere's been exams and how did
they go.
You know he's a very, everpresent person in their lives
and we I certainly hope they'llgrow up and think, unlike Andy
said with his, you know thatthey absolutely saw their dad,
knew their dad, had full accessto their dad.
He was involved in every partof their life.
(10:23):
So that's the way I'd like itto to be.
And we work.
Tamsin Caine (10:27):
You know we work hard on that oh, do you know
what that's so lovely like?
I've got a lump in my throat.
I I had a?
Um similar experience in myparents divorce um, the the one
you described and um, when I gotdivorced, that that it was that
co-parenting relationship thatwas vitally important to me as
(10:50):
well.
And I'm interested to know if,because you both seem really
lovely and both very chilled outand both kind of putting the
children in at the center.
So I always talk about puttingthe children at the center, but
not in the middle.
What?
What were some of thechallenges about co-parenting at
(11:11):
the beginning?
Andy?
Andy Morgan (11:13):
I guess a lot of people fall into the, into the
trap, for whatever reasons, ofmaybe the parents are not as
friendly as they could or shouldbe, and pushing the children
against the other parent.
That was one key thing not todo.
They knew we're still a familyinverted commas Still a family,
(11:38):
we're still all friendly, we'reall still happy, we all still
really like each other, we allstill really like each other and
that there's there's thatthere's no um animosity, um that
there was no negative fromparent towards the other via the
kids.
You know that was a key thingnot not to do, because that that
really is damaging for them,really is.
I mean, just slightly offsubject.
(11:59):
We know people that have hadparents that they're ages to us.
They've had parents that stayedtogether for the kids in
inverted commas I guess andthey've been damaged long-term
and they would freely say thatand tell us that.
So that was really a key thingto take away in the decision to
(12:23):
divorce and everything is aroundaround the children, of course,
to make sure they're happy andsane.
They were very young when wedid um split up, as kate said,
very young.
So for them they especially um18 months old and four, four
year old just about vaguelyremembers that I lived in the
(12:46):
house, but not really so.
This is their norm, which youknow.
That's a bonus or not?
Um, because some children,obviously a bit older, they
remember the marital home andthen how it is afterwards, but
for us they don't rememberanything prior to there, which
may be I don't know if you callit a bonus or not, but it is a
good thing and they so far seemokay, saying decent children in.
(13:12):
in growing up, the teenage yearsmight be slightly different
maybe not you never know, andthey, they can be different
children when they're withmyself or with kate.
They really are the things thatthey can or can't say to one
parent or the other, being thatthey're males, I'm a male, etc.
(13:33):
You know that I'm trying tothink of of no negatives, but
positives for them, and I thinkthat's a positive, like that we
spoke between ourselves, andthey are slightly different
children when they're with me oror with with Kate, but that I
think that helps them grow.
Catherine Morgan (13:52):
Ask different questions to different people
and we talk about that, don't we?
We compare notes about that,which is important.
You know, have you, have youhad this discussion or what are
you hearing?
So we're still differently, butin the same way, a married
couple, might you know yourchildren will have different
relationships with mum versusdad, and that that's normal, I
(14:12):
think absolutely.
Tamsin Caine (14:15):
When there are big decisions to be made and and
probably talking about moreabout your 12 year old than your
nine year old, because I'mfiguring that your 12 year old's
probably getting to the pointwhere they're going to be
pushing boundaries and and so onwhen there are decisions about
what they are and aren't allowedto do, are those decisions that
(14:39):
you both make together, or doyou make, catherine?
Do you make decisions aboutwhat they can and can't do when
they're at yours and Andy makesthe ones that feel right for him
when they're at his?
How do you navigate that?
Catherine Morgan (14:54):
I think we probably have talked about the
big thing like when might theyhave a phone?
I think we haven't talked aboutthis before.
I think we're both on the samepath there and I would it.
That's where I think it wouldcreate friction for a child if
they can do one thing reallydifferently to with the other
(15:15):
parent, because that confusesthe child.
So I don't know, but that,innately to me, would be a point
where I'd have to either giveand share the same view as as
Andy, to be consistent or atleast talk about it with the
children altogether.
And we have times where we areall together, you know sort of
(15:36):
picking up and handing back atthe weekends and things like
that.
It's come in, let's have a meal, let's chat.
It's not a two minute drop off,oh, that's lovely.
So there's always time forthings like that.
And we have together had a chatwith our 12 year old about
incidents or the internet oranything and everything.
I think I'd always want to checkwith him, because you are
raising the same child, not notbecause we're in a marriage, but
(15:59):
actually we want him to grow upto be a successful man and
therefore I guess we probablyhave quite similar views on some
of those things you know, andso that that was always
something I'll let Andy comment,but that we had the same view
on about, you know, manners andthe importance of family and
(16:20):
swearing, and you know you nameit.
I think we are still quitesimilar in that regard, so that
there haven't been so far toomany.
I can't think of any, you know,like massive points of
difference.
But I can see that in otherdivorced families that's where
maybe it is painful and thenit's reinforced by the parents
(16:40):
saying, well, your fatherwouldn't xyz, or we'll go and do
you know, and referring to thatdifference of the parents
opinion can be the source ofpain for the children.
Andy Morgan (16:52):
We I don't think we've we've had that yeah, no,
no, big differences on the bigthings, really.
No, we're quite aligned on onjust all of those, which is
quite lucky.
If we're not, we have a goodtalk through it anyway and put
each other's points of viewforward and and come to a
decision together.
Generally, yeah, there's never,never any.
I'm doing this and that's it.
(17:12):
Sorry that there's neveranything like that, which is
quite, quite lucky for us.
One thing that the children dosometimes which is quite natural
and normal is if they're withme and I say right time for bed
or time for x and y, mommy, letsus stay up.
Always does Okay, I'll talk toKate and it's okay.
(17:34):
No, not at all.
So you have to watch out forthat.
They do try, but that's justpart of their learning and
pushing boundaries and learninglife.
Tamsin Caine (17:44):
Do you know what you preempted?
Because I was just about to askyou just that question.
I remember, so I think myyoungest was about 11 when we,
when we split up maybe a littlebit younger than that and I
remember her and it.
It she's not normally like this, but I she'd ask me if she
(18:05):
could have something or if Icould give her some money, or
something like that, and I saidabsolutely no.
And then she found my ex andasked him the same question I'm
like you, cheeky, so-and-so andthen he'd, of course, rung me
and gone this is what's happenedand this is what she's asked
for.
And I was like, brilliant, I'mso glad you found, because I I
(18:25):
think our co-parentingrelationship is is pretty
reasonable, but I don't thinkit's anywhere near the gold
standard that you guys are, thatyou guys are up to, um, so yeah
, that is it.
It's that pushing against things, isn't it?
And I think, as they get older,it's those decisions that that
(18:46):
you're trying to take of.
Am I allowed to?
You know, it's like youmentioned the phone.
It becomes like I'll kind of goto the.
I don't know.
Can I go on my own to the parkin the evening.
Can I go into town?
Can I go into the local city?
And it's those sorts of thingswhere they're sort of
challenging their ownindependence.
Really that starts to be a bitlike like I'm not very
(19:10):
comfortable about them doing it.
But then they've kind of got tolet the reins off a little bit,
I think.
Andy Morgan (19:16):
But I think you're right another thing that's a
challenge is, um, two parents,two children.
You can easily take one away todo a, do a something, do
something they love, um, and youhave the one-to-one time.
That that is a quite a bigchallenge.
Obviously, most of the time Ihave both of them and, being
(19:38):
boys, it's it's been a refereefor fighting and everything else
and you get to know them reallywell.
But the best way to get to knowthem is is one-to-one.
They are different children andthat that for me is, um, I
guess, a relatively rare thing,but when that does happen, that
that is that is so nice.
I guess that's one divorcednegative, that that you know two
(20:01):
parents, two children in thesame house.
That could happen so mucheasier.
Um, we do do it now and again,um, especially if we think one
of them may have a bit of anissue or unhappy about something
.
We'll talk and, okay, let'shave one each and and see if we
can get them to open up.
When you're just one on one, Imean, that's that's, I guess,
the golden time, maybe, if youwant to call it that.
(20:22):
You know that that is achallenge as well to do that,
because you know, when katedoesn't have the children.
She has other things she wantsand needs to do in her free time
.
So that is a challenge piece,but something we do, overcome
when we need, when we need to.
Tamsin Caine (20:36):
Yeah I like that.
That's.
That's a really good ideabecause, you're right, it is
difficult, it's, it's a, I guess, much so.
My children live full-time withme and and it is about kind of
your finding that you get thetime as a person who lives with
them most of the time like ifthey're off at a party or
(20:58):
whatever you get to spend timewith one-on-one.
But it's much more difficultfor the I'm going to say dad in
this instance, when they're not,you know they're with you for a
relatively short amount of timeand you have them both at the
same time.
Finding that one-on-one timemust be it must be much more
difficult but I like.
(21:19):
I like the fact that there'sthe fluidity of being able to do
that if it feels right for theboys.
Catherine Morgan (21:25):
That's really cool and you sometimes see
people turning themselves insideout because it's their weekend
or it's not their weekend.
I'm not saying I feel smug, butthe obvious thing is then
surely, well, then you put downyour official schedule and you
break it because the childrenneed something different.
So, as Andy's saying, you know,it's OK, I'll do this and you
(21:47):
do that with that one.
And I think as people get moreinto a new life, you get further
away from that flexibility.
Maybe, in particular if there'sthen new partners or new
children, or you lose thatthread, I think.
And maybe we're just lucky aswell as we work hard to keep
saying, well, what do they need?
Ok, well, you take this one andI'll do that, you know.
(22:09):
And to heck with the officialweekends.
Um, I think we we say that alot not sure that's a lot,
catherine.
Tamsin Caine (22:17):
It feels like it's a very carefully considered and
um and planned out situationthat you, that you're in, and
and it you know it's.
It's really.
It's really lovely to hearabout um.
I'm interested in um whetherand um.
(22:38):
I can't imagine that this hasever been the case, but has
there ever been a situationwhere I, either of them, have
said no, don't want to go thisweekend or this Wednesday?
Um, I want to be in my housewith my playstation and go on
Minecraft for the whole weekendrather than going?
(22:59):
I'll then go and see daddy andif so, how have you dealt with
that situation?
Andy Morgan (23:04):
go on, andy well, it's for you to answer really,
because I'm sure you get thatmore than I do they.
They're at your house much morethan mine, and that's their
home, that's what they're usedto.
They've got most of their ownthings there, that's their
comfort zone, and so when theycome to mine, I'm sure there
must be times when they say no,I don't really want to go and
(23:26):
it's boring there, or this andthat or whatever they give.
I know sometimes you've saidthat to me.
Catherine Morgan (23:40):
If it, if it happens too frequently so I can
understand it and adjust.
But I'm sure it happens more toyou, kate, than it does does to
me.
I think, um, if say one ofthem's not, well, they typically
might want to be with me andthat's not a measure of how Andy
cares for them when they'resick.
It's just, let's say, you'reinto like day three of an
illness and then it's daddy'snight, well, there might be
resistance because they're stillwanting to just curl up in in
the bed and, you know, carry onbeing ill.
That's, that's just aninevitable.
(24:01):
Um.
I think we've probably, lookingback, been.
I'm quite a tech phobe.
Andy has lots of great gamesand driving stuff, and they're
boys.
So daddy's house is full ofexciting things and it might be
smaller, but there's a heck of alot to do there and it's always
fun and they have very clearboundaries as well.
(24:22):
So I think and I hope that whenthey are there they know
exactly what's involved, theyknow what they can do.
There aren't, there aren't toomany variables.
I wouldn't say there's onebetter house or not, or there's
one strict parent.
There's what I mean.
Actually I probably would theysay Andy's much stricter, but I
mean, but there's a lot of funthere, and and they're boys.
(24:44):
And again, maybe this is thefact of your personal situation.
You know I'm the only female,so I need advice on how to help
them become young men.
And there he is, their dad.
He's right there.
So of course I'm going to bedrawing on that and talking, and
so that's beyond the topic.
(25:05):
But you know, it's just a needfor us to carry on being closely
in touch about our sons and youknow, there's probably times
when they prefer him to me, butthey would anyway, don't all
children?
I often find myself, and I grewup in a very happy childhood.
My parents were together wellinto my teens and I look back
(25:28):
and just think I had a massivelydifferent relationship with my
mom and my dad and I foughtbitterly with one and not with
the other, and I thought one wasvery strict and one was a walk
over.
And they happen to be in thesame house, but they, they're
two different people and theolder you get and when you
become a parent yourself, yousee the flaws and the wonders of
your parents.
(25:48):
No one gives you a rule book,and so that's how I try and
judge.
You know, how will they judgeus?
Well, it was the first timethat we were a mum or a dad and
and we tried to put them first.
Tamsin Caine (26:02):
I know absolutely, andy.
If you were to rewind thingsgoing back to when you first
split up, is there anything andwe're only talking about
co-parenting, not anything elseis there anything that you would
change about how you set up theco-parenting relationship or
(26:26):
anything you would change aboutthat process?
Andy Morgan (26:31):
Not that I can think of off the top of my head.
I mean, I moved close.
I didn't move far away, whichwas a definite to be involved in
their lives as much as I could.
I see them as much as I can.
Um, well, it's never as much asyou'd like to, but more than
enough, and it's fluid and it'sit's.
It's more than just the settimes and days.
(26:53):
What would I have donedifferently?
Um, I guess the ideal is not toget divorced at all happy
family, but that that thatwasn't the the route we took.
We took the route we didbecause we thought it's the best
for everyone, not just in aselfish way, but for the four of
us.
I guess I can't think ofanything I would have done
(27:15):
differently, to be honest.
Catherine Morgan (27:17):
Okay, maybe you've got any thoughts, but I
know I can think while you talkoh, I mean, I think of the magic
spreadsheet that we have likebehind the scenes.
We have a spreadsheet of wherewe are and holidays and anything
that gets mapped out or insetdays.
You know we look ahead as faras we can as to when, like, if
it's Andy's weekend and it's aninset day, then that's the
Friday.
(27:37):
If there's a bank holiday, wellthen it's.
If you've got them that weekend, then that's also the Monday,
just, and we're both veryorganized people.
So, again, it just works likethat.
But we have a spreadsheet everyyear.
You know we roll it forward.
I could probably know officiallywhat I'm doing in November in
2025, because it's just yours,mine, yours, mine, yours, mine.
(27:57):
It's not, it's just the benefitof Excel, but there's
flexibility to change all that.
You know, with big events weneed.
But it works like that.
The boys know it, it, we knowit, so it's it's like a little
system.
I suppose that we we've stuckto um and it's getting things
like that in place and justputting them first, because you
(28:21):
can spend a huge amount of timeand energy and money and emotion
dealing with your ownrelationship and it's a game
changer once you have kids,you've brought lives into the
world and you know whatever'shappened between you.
There's other humans that needto be managed and to try and not
, you know raise people that arebroken and damaged and look
(28:44):
back at their childhood ratherthan look forward into what
they're going to do.
Tamsin Caine (28:59):
Yeah, it's important to give it a thought.
That sounds dark?
No, not at all.
When you, um, when you weregoing through the process of
getting divorced, did you haveother than your amazing sounding
spreadsheet?
Did you have a parenting plan?
Because I know this issomething that a lot of divorce
coaches talk about putting intoplace a parenting plan and I
kind of.
It's always struck me thatputting into a parent, putting a
parenting plan in place whenthe children are 18 months and
(29:22):
four in your case, that thingsare going to change about what's
in there, like as they getolder and older, and I just
wondered if it was somethingthat you'd put in place.
Andy Morgan (29:34):
Not officially.
No, I think if circumstancesbetween us were different, not
as close or friendly, thensomething official would need to
be put in place, whatever theyhave in a standard parenting
plan.
But no, nothing official.
Just we would initially, okay,let's see how it goes with the
every other weekend and everyWednesday, let's see how that
(29:55):
pans out for us in our lives,and especially the kids lives,
and how, how they adapt to that,how happy or unhappy they are
with it, and go from there andobviously we could change it
whenever we wished.
So there was, there was noofficial parenting plan.
I don't even know what would bein, be in one, you know, to be
honest, but being needed in, in,in in a situation where people
(30:18):
are not so friendly, talkative,open, etc.
Tamsin Caine (30:21):
Obviously it'd be needed then for sure yeah, I
think you're right, I think it.
I can see it not really beingneeded between the two of you,
but I think if there's certainlyan animosity or differences of
opinion or, you know, dealingwith certain situations, it
probably is needed.
But, um, yeah, I like, I likeyour spreadsheet.
(30:44):
That all sounds good.
Catherine Morgan (30:49):
If also if you know money is really tight and
that's often the way when you'vegot to create two homes, you
know, maybe perhaps a lot offamilies really have to kind of
say, right, who will?
Who will buy the uniform or whowill buy the football kit?
Or you know, I can see youalmost maybe need a statement of
intent or something which whichwe haven't between us, and I'm
(31:09):
aware of that as well.
I think you know we're probablyfortunate, being in an affluent
part of the country.
You know we managed to get ourdivorce done, and so that hasn't
been a real problem for us, butit might well be for lots of
families, and so it's abouthaving clarity.
Guess up front, and if you need,as well as your own financial
(31:31):
settlement, if you need lots ofdetail about paying for
children's things, then you knoweverything and anything you can
write down and using goodadvisors and solicitors and so
on to yeah, maybe there'scontent in a plan like that or
chapter headings that can helpparents who are newly divorced
to think you might not know itnow, but in a few years you're
(31:53):
going to need X and Y, becausethat's just the fact that none
of us quite know what we'reheading into as parents.
I mean, ours were at nurseryand it was quite regimented, so
that was the routine.
We weren't really setting it.
Our kids were in a, they werein the routine, they were in and
, and then infant school andschool.
You know so.
Andy Morgan (32:15):
But yeah, I can see the processes would be good for
some families when they startas amicable as everything sounds
, that there are still pointswhere you're at loggerheads and
you're maybe not enemies, butthere are points where you're
battling against each other.
The financials is one, ofcourse, and that will be for
(32:37):
every divorce.
I guess the financials were one.
The other one was something wedidn't think about until I
physically moved out, which wasall the possessions in the house
, who has what?
That was something that until Imoved out out, we didn't
discuss and think about.
So then we had the discussionabout that.
I want this, I want that, butthey I think, especially the
(32:57):
financials, they were the two,um hardest parts.
And I just remember, when wefinished the financial chats
between us, um, we had a hug anda cuddle and said, right,
that's done now let's move on.
We're friends again, carry on,let's do everything, everything
as we should for the kids andmove on and get this done as
smoothly as we can.
(33:17):
And obviously that was theintroduction of the children to
the idea of daddy's not hereanymore and there's another
house.
Um, that was a challenge on onthe kit side not, not too big, I
mean, excuse me, kate wouldcome, come to my house,
obviously, before the childrensaw it, um, got comfortable with
(33:39):
it, what was here, how it was,and then first few times kate
would come with the children, sothey didn't see it as a mental
mummies and daddies, it's everyeverybody's.
And, as Kate said, when Idropped them off I stayed out
for a while, or I pop in on anevening from nearby, so they
don't see it as adifferentiation, differentiation
(34:01):
or a divide.
They see it as everything iseverybody's that's a really good
point.
Catherine Morgan (34:05):
I thought about that physicality of the
place, as in, you know, andy'swelcome in my house.
I'm welcoming his.
I sat my exams at his.
He had a better internet so Iwent around to do some of my
exams with it.
You know, like it's a measureof that, I would hate the boys
to feel that there's a placethat mummy can't go or that
(34:27):
daddy can't come.
That again, that just seemsreally sad.
If that was the case, becausethey're both places that they
both go, um, I remember a bit of, like, you know, making sure
that we had enough pants andsocks at daddy's and that sort
of just.
It's extra work.
You have to think ahead and beplanned and in some cases just
have two of everything, whichcosts more money, but it's less
(34:50):
so as they get older becausethey manage themselves a bit
more.
They know they need to taketheir you know, tennis racket or
football shirt, you know.
Otherwise they're the ones thatlose out and that's just part
of teaching them to grow up.
So it's got easier over theyears.
Tamsin Caine (35:04):
Absolutely on the subject of finances, andy I'm,
I'm interested in how younavigate, not spoiling them when
you see them, perhaps less thanyou.
I mean, in another world.
We see our children every day,so in it, do you, do you manage
to not spoil them rotten and howdo you manage that?
Andy Morgan (35:29):
um, I guess I do because I see them regularly.
So it's not a case of I seethem once a month.
I've got to treat them so theylike me and bond with me the
bribes, I guess.
So it's not quite like that,because I see them quite often.
Um, they always want everything, as all children do, and I
don't just buy them thingsbecause they ask and beg 50
(35:51):
times and just to shut them up.
I do try and make them learnthings in life.
So if they want football cards,if they want to to do an x and
y, okay, no problem.
What are you going to do for me?
What, what?
What are you going to do toearn?
What are you going to do toearn that?
Right?
So they would sweep somewhere,cut the grass and whatever else.
So I don't see myself as awalkover there, if you know what
(36:15):
I mean, and I don't feel I haveto shower them with money and
gifts to get them to like me,because I do see them regularly.
I think maybe if I didn't seethem as much, it may be a
slightly different story, Ithink.
Catherine Morgan (36:32):
But no, it's.
Yeah, andy's secret weapon ischocolate Darth Vader's.
He has a like an ice tray thatyou and I might fill with water,
but he fills with dairy milkand they're in the shape of
Darth Vader and the only thingthat they consistently ask for
is if daddy's coming has, has hegot any chocolate Darth Vader's
?
Where are the chocolate DarthVader's?
(36:53):
And that's a very cheap but butyou know simple tool to make
children very happy.
It works.
Tamsin Caine (36:58):
a treat amazing, amazing, how.
How do you so?
Again, kind of on the on thekind of gifting and spoiling, my
experience is that wherethere's the parents live in
different houses, they getdouble at Christmas and for
birthdays.
How?
Andy Morgan (37:20):
do you?
Tamsin Caine (37:21):
manage that.
Andy Morgan (37:22):
Sometimes, if they want a large present, we would
club together a bike orsomething that's quite expensive
.
We would club together a bikeor something that's that's quite
expensive, we would clubtogether.
But other other times, I meangenerally that they do get two
sets of presents, to be honest,um, two sets of holidays, I mean
that is a bonus, big bonus fromtheir point of view.
But we do we talk betweenourselves to make sure either
(37:45):
side of our families don'tduplicate on on what we, we do
buy.
Then we talk about things theywant, the value of things.
How do we share the load andnot duplicate and not over
overindulging like I guess, yeah, yeah oh, I'm glad there's some
.
Catherine Morgan (38:02):
There's some things that you guys do that
normal co-parents do I I thinkalso it's only the present from
mum and dad, because I mean thegrandparents on Andy's side,
there's grandparents on my side.
They would all probably havebought the children presents
anyway.
So it's, it's not doubleeverything.
We just try and coordinate whateach of us are buying and
(38:25):
stocking fillers and things likethat, um, and we try and have a
day at Christmas where we'retogether and we have.
You know, my mother-in-law isstill my mother-in-law and I
love her dearly and I don't wanther to not see the children,
you know so.
So we do, we do a lot ofChristmas, but I guess that does
require you to get on with eachother, um the point.
Andy Morgan (38:47):
Yeah, christmas is always a discussion point.
We've got into a good rhythmwhich is is the same just about
every year.
So I like to be with themchristmas eve, christmas day
morning.
So what we generally do it is Iwould would go to their main
house and be with them for thatperiod and then Kate would take
(39:08):
them away to see her familyChristmas day afternoon, boxing
day, and then I would take themback and then take them to see
my family for the rest of thebreak.
So we have a quite a good fluidpiece there.
I can see where for others thatwould be always the challenge
of I want them Christmas day,now I want them Christmas day.
(39:29):
We're lucky we don't don't havethat when I guess if that was
the case we would maybealternate each year.
Tamsin Caine (39:36):
We haven't got to that case at that point, luckily
yeah, it's a different,difficult one to navigate that
we, we um alternate, I like.
I like having them Christmas,even Christmas day morning.
For me, especially when they'relittle, those are their little
faces on Christmas morning, it'sjust like something you can't
(39:58):
beat.
But I know my ex appreciatesthat as well.
So we've always said alternateChristmas Eve night and
Christmas morning and thenswitch around at kind of
lunchtime and then the otherperson has them for the rest of
Christmas day.
So you either get Christmasdinner or you get Christmas
morning and I kind of think,yeah, if you can't spend it
(40:19):
together, that is one way of youknow making sure that you, you
both benefit at least some yearsfrom that.
Catherine Morgan (40:26):
So I think they'd also be sad if, if they
you know, there'll be times whenwe're doing something and the
boys will say what about daddy?
So you know that, and thatdoesn't mean, can daddy come and
we're doing it before again,but it means that you know
they're they're keen to knowwhat daddy's doing.
So that's again another reasonto not have long periods of time
(40:48):
where you've, you know,excluded daddy, or vice versa, I
think, because they are awareabsolutely think of times of
negatives over the years ofbeing divorced.
Andy Morgan (41:01):
So if I'm doing something with them, that and
they're having just an amazingtime, I think oh, it'd be great
if their mum could see this aswell that that's a bit of a
slight sad point, or if you'reon holiday, um, the same sort of
theory they're having a greattime, lovely timing, oh, I wish
someone could see this.
But we do a lot of these days.
It's great with phones andcameras, video and photos, and
(41:22):
if I'm away with them theweekend, I'll send them to kate,
just so she can see what we'reup to, what's going on, what
we're doing, how happy they are,etc.
So that that helps cover it, Iguess.
Yeah, that is one one negativeof being separate, of course.
Tamsin Caine (41:36):
Yeah oh, that's lovely.
I like that.
That's really cool.
We have been talking for agesand, sadly, are coming to the
end of our time together.
Andy Morgan (41:47):
I just wondered if there was any any final piece of
advice that either of you havefor our listeners yeah, there's
one, one thing that I find beingthe person that doesn't have
them the most so generally it'sthe, it's the dad that has this
is say, I'll have them from afriday afternoon evening onwards
(42:08):
.
I'm used to living on my own,they're used to living with Kate
.
There's not all the time, butsometimes on a Friday evening.
There's an adjustment periodboth for myself and for them, um
and so there's arguments,wouldn't say there's tension,
but there's an adjustment periodwhere you get used to each
other again.
They get used to the way I am,I get used to the way they are,
(42:31):
um, not frosty, not odd, butjust just something to to be
aware of.
And then the Saturday onwardsit is it's great, we're all in
the same wavelength andeverything's good.
So, but that's another justthing to think about for the
person that doesn't have themtoo often or as often good
advice.
Tamsin Caine (42:50):
I like that anything from you, catherine
just put them at the center.
Catherine Morgan (42:56):
You know, assuming you wanted children in
the first place, they are, and Isay this at least once a week
to someone in business or aparent at school or a friend
divorcing.
I always say they're the bestthing that came out of the years
that we had together.
So you know what's not totreasure and you know so.
Tamsin Caine (43:15):
Yeah, oh, thank you so much.
That's such a lovely, lovelypoint to finish on.
Thank you ever so much forjoining me.
I've really enjoyed thatconversation and I just think
it's going to be so incrediblyuseful for so many people.
And you know, I'm sure nobodyever tells you this, but you're
doing an amazing job.
And, yeah, just my heart goesout to both of you for doing
(43:41):
such a great job and I thinkmany people get told as parents,
that we're doing a good job.
But, as you said before,there's no rule book and it's
fantastic, so you thanks verymuch, hi, and I hope you enjoyed
that episode of the smartdivorce podcast.
(44:02):
If you would like to get intouch, please have a look in the
show notes for our details orgo onto the website, www.
smartdivorce.
co.
uk.
Also, if you are listening onapple podcasts or on spotify and
you wouldn't mind leaving us alovely five-star review, that
would be fantastic.
I know that lots of ourlisteners are finding this is
(44:25):
incredibly helpful in theirjourney through separation,
divorce and dissolving a civilpartnership.
Also, if you would like somefurther support, we do have a
facebook group now.
It's called separation, divorceand dissolution uk.
Please do go on to facebook,search up the group and we'd be
(44:47):
delighted to have you join us.
The one thing I would say is doplease answer their membership
questions.
Okay, have a great day and takecare.
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