October 18, 2024 • 45 mins
TRIGGER WARNING. In the first episode, I speak to Rachel, who is currently navigating divorce from a partner who was abusive and continues to be so post separation. This is an incredibly brave conversation. We’re so grateful to be able to share Rachel’s story.
Tamsin Caine
Tamsin is a Chartered Financial Planner with over 20 years experience. She works with couples and individuals who are at the end of a relationship and want agree how to divide their assets FAIRLY without a fight.
You can contact Tamsin at tamsin@smartdivorce.co.uk or arrange a free initial meeting using https://bit.ly/SmDiv15min. She is also part of the team running Facebook group Separation, Divorce and Dissolution UK
Tamsin Caine MSc., FPFS
Chartered Financial Planner
Smart Divorce Ltd
P.S. I am the co-author of “My Divorce Handbook – It’s What You Do Next That Counts”, written by divorce specialists and lawyers writing about their area of expertise to help walk you through the divorce process. You can buy it here https://yourdivorcehandbook.co.uk/buy-the-book/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tamsin Caine (00:06):
Welcome to series 10 of the Smart Divorce podcast.
During this series, we're goingto be speaking about the
difficult subject of domesticabuse.
Unfortunately, during my work,I come across people who are
victim survivors of domesticabuse on a far too regular basis
.
So we're going to be talking tothose who have survived
(00:30):
themselves, to professionalsworking in this area, to
solicitors, to hopefully helpyou to find the right support if
you're in that situation.
This is an iss ue that's notgoing away.
So if you're going through thisor you know anybody who is, I
really hope this series helpsyou.
Thanks for listening.
(00:51):
Hello and welcome to the SmartDivorce Podcast.
Something a little bit differenttoday.
I am really pleased to bejoined by my guest, Rachel,
today.
We are keeping her relativelyanonymous for the reason that
she's been kind and brave enoughto come on to talk to us about
(01:14):
her experiences of domesticabuse today and to kick-start
our latest series, which willall be covering domestic abuse.
So Rachel is 52 years old.
She was in a relationship for24 years with her ex.
14 of those were in a civilpartnership.
They have a 10-year-old sontogether who was birthed by
(01:38):
Rachel's ex.
However, Rachel was the maincarer for the majority of her
son's life or their son's life,and so either during that time
didn't work or was working parttime, so has been not the
financial breadwinner.
Rachel, thank you so much forjoining me today.
(01:58):
I really do appreciate it,you're welcome.
Rachel (02:01):
It's nice to be able to contribute.
Tamsin Caine (02:04):
Absolutely no, it's really appreciated.
So can you tell us when youfirst realized that you were
being subjected to domesticabuse?
Rachel (02:23):
yeah, I mean, I, I'm uh, I probably was a bit slow to
the party because I didn'treally realise that something
was quite significantly wronguntil the day after my
ex-partner ended the marriage.
So, 24 years in, my ex-partnerended the marriage and just kept
(02:44):
saying the marriage is over,and then her behaviour just was
so peculiar that I couldn't makesense of what was happening and
I thought what on earth isgoing on?
This doesn't feel normal.
I knew that my body justthought what is going on?
Because she behaved though shehad just uh cancelled a
(03:04):
newspaper subscription, and thiswas after 24 years of marriage,
and she was very calm and verykind of, uh, collected and
ruthless.
I mean I and I, when I look,it's very difficult because I
look back now with a differentlens to how I felt then, but at
the time I thought somethingsinister is going on and this
word sinister kept popping intomy head and I, um, I very
(03:29):
quickly uh went to see my GPbecause I, you know, um, my
marriage had ended.
I had to call in sick, uh, withmy employer and, um, I need I
knew that I would need a sicknote because I knew that this
wasn't going to be, this wasn'tgoing to be just a three days
off work situation.
So I went to talk to my GP andmy GP said and this was in the
(03:53):
first two days of the marriageending um, my GP said I think
you need to call the domesticabuse helpline, because I
described the sort of behaviorsthat my ex was exhibiting and
that was a total shock.
And but I trusted my GP and Irespected her and I called the
domestic abuse helpline thenational one and they said yes,
(04:14):
you're being subjected tocoercive, controlling and
emotional and psychologicalabuse.
And that was the very start ofit and that was in November 2023
and it's eight months in.
And I've been on this reallyhorrendous journey.
Um, that I, I and I'm now sortof dealing with the, the loss of
(04:34):
the marriage, the loss of whatactually I thought I was in,
that was completely fabricated.
Um, and you know, all of thatsort of sudden awareness has has
been a a real uh reveal moment,which has been really horrible.
Um, so, yeah, I, I didn't knowat the time, at the time,
(04:56):
throughout the relationship, wehad ups and downs and I just
thought that they were sort ofthe ups and downs that other
marriages had.
Um, and I, but I I'm, I wasn'tbrought up knowing about
coercive control or that sort ofabuse.
Domestic abuse to me was verymuch man hits woman, um, you
know that kind of traditional,uh sort of sadly traditional
(05:19):
idea, and so I wasn't lookingfor the signs of a female, uh
perpetrator of domestic abusecarrying that out on me.
I thought I would have noticedthat.
So, yeah, it took me.
It took me to the end of themarriage to notice and from my
experience with domestic abuseagencies, that's quite a common
(05:41):
occurrence in the sort ofsituation where you've got this
insidious psychological andemotional coercive control, it's
just very, by very, very slowdegrees that it, it ramps up.
And then, yeah, as soon as themarriage ended, she was just
quite, uh, I would say, overtlycontrolling, overtly
(06:02):
psychologically damaging andovertly emotionally abusive.
It was just very overt.
It's almost like she couldn'tpretend anymore that she didn't
want to hurt me.
She actively wanted to hurt meand actively wanted to do these
things and was no longerpretending.
Tamsin Caine (06:18):
And that was, that was the, that was the sudden
realizationisation Justheartbreaking, but not
surprising, because I think alot of clients that I work with
are similarly unaware, untilsomebody says to them,
post-separation actually you'reaware that that sounds like
(06:42):
domestic abuse and I think wewere brought up in a generation
where we weren't aware ofcoercive control and almost that
wasn't a phrase that was everused, probably until relatively
recently I think, certainly inthe kind of general public.
In terms of when you look backon the relationship, can you
(07:05):
pinpoint a time that this beganor does it feel like it was
something that was creeping upon you, kind of under the radar,
from day one almost?
Rachel (07:27):
It was certainly creeping under the radar from
day one.
But there, and actually fromday one, there were red flags
and so, um, part of part of thissort of this journey that I've
been on has rendered me quiteisolated from long, long-term
friendships and I've, in someway, I feel quite, uh, a burden
of responsibility that I'veallowed that to happen.
You know it, I could havestayed in touch with old friends
, but I didn't, and I realisedthat that was part and parcel of
(07:48):
being made to feel I didn'tneed anybody else.
You know, my ex-partner neversaid you can't see that person,
apart from one person.
So in the isolation thatgradually grew, I wasn't able to
sort of or I didn't say topeople do you think this is
normal, do you think thisbehavior is kind of okay?
And so the behaviors that my exexhibited at the very beginning
(08:11):
of our relationship weretypical of abusive people.
And having got back in touchwith those old friends that saw
us at the beginning of ourrelationship, one of my good
friends said you were predated,and she used the word predated
(08:34):
in terms of my ex-partner beingpredatory towards me and marking
me out, as you know, somebodythat she was going to get.
As you know, somebody that shewas going to get, and I took
that in my.
You know, working through allof the work that I'm doing now
with the various different abuseagencies, I'm doing my own work
on myself and starting tounderstand what that predatory
(09:00):
sensation was for me.
I thought that it was love.
I thought that I was being, youknow, I was being kind of um
overwhelmed by this love.
I didn't know what love bombingwas at the time, but I was
certainly love bombed.
There was lots of attention,lots of gifts, lots of adoration
, and it was highly, highlyaddictive to me, having maybe
(09:22):
not experienced that very muchin my childhood.
And so, you know, I realizedthat there are patterns within
that abusive, uh, those abusivetraits that I I was willingly um
accepting because becausethat's what I was, I was used to
, and so it didn't seemunfamiliar to me.
But there were red flags.
(09:44):
Then there was infidelity fairlyearly on, and I just sort of
thought, well, I have to, I haveto kind of not necessarily put
up with it, but work through it.
This is part and parcel ofrelationships, and relationships
are not always easy, and it wasmy job to try to make it, make
(10:06):
it work, um and so, um, yeah,the sort of insidious creep of
of the relationship.
And in the coercive sense, Ididn't want to buy a house
together but was coerced intobuying a house together.
We lived in London for a while.
I really didn't want to do thatand my ex-partner made lots of
(10:28):
fun of me and said, oh, you'rejust a commitment phobe, and you
don't, you don't, you don'twant to do it because you're a
commitment phobe and would saythat in front of her family, to
make me feel stupid.
And and I was missing outsomehow on getting on the
housing ladder, um, I thendidn't want to get civilly
partnered, but again she made me, she, she made comments about
(10:50):
well, you're just a commitmentphobe and would say it in front
of her family and friends, um,and passed it, always, always
passed all of these nastycomments off as a joke, um, and
so we bought a house and then wegot civilly partnered, and so
and I now realize that part ofthat coercive control is about
(11:10):
binding you to that individual,that they get you bound, and so
I was, you know, financiallybound with a house.
I then became legally bound toher and um, and then she coerced
me into us having a babytogether and I had.
Anybody that knows me had alwaysknown that I didn't really want
to have children, not because Idon't like them, but because I
(11:31):
just didn't feel that wassomething I wanted to do.
But she coerced me into sayingwell, this is my body, you can't
stop me from wanting a child.
I've wanted a child since I was12.
It's my womb.
I've wanted a child since I was12.
It's my womb.
And kind of went down the routeof I'm an independent woman,
you can't, as another woman,tell me what to do with my womb.
And I was very conscious of notwanting to limit her ability to
(11:56):
have a baby.
But I was in love and I thoughtwe're married.
Ok, I have to.
I have to go along with thisbecause we're married and I've
made this commitment and I'm ofthe opinion that once you make a
commitment, that's it.
You do stick.
And so, anyway, then we ended upon the journey of IVF and she
got pregnant and we had ourchild in 2013.
(12:22):
And so, yes, there was a veryslow, insidious, creeping build
of of this coercive control andpeppered within these big life
events like buying a house andgetting married, she was, she
was dealing with things like thefinances saying that she wanted
to do it, she liked it, shewould always have spreadsheets,
(12:44):
she organized mortgages, sheorganized car insurances, things
like that.
Um, and it was always a case ofno, let me do that because I
like doing it and I'm good at it.
Um, and all the while, veryslowly, when I look back, uh, my
self-esteem was just gettinglower and lower and lower and
lower and lower, and I juststarted to feel worse about
(13:04):
myself and I just thought, andshe would sort of say, well, I
think you need to go and see atherapist.
So I would go and see atherapist and I would get help
for me to try to figure out whatwas wrong with me.
And that was, yeah, that waskind of I suppose that's the
slow creep of that kind of powerplay.
(13:25):
Really, ultimately, it waspower play that I didn't know
that I was being played thatgame.
Tamsin Caine (13:34):
How are you feeling now about what you've
been through and how do you feelabout the relationship now,
kind of looking back on it?
Rachel (13:44):
It's easier to answer the second question.
When I look back on therelationship, I feel that I was
with a con woman, you know, likethe old school con person uh,
that none of it's real, it's alltotally false.
The only stuff that was realwere my feelings of love and
commitment, and so I havenothing to cling on to about the
(14:06):
relationship.
It was all fake.
And so I'm dealing with a lotof grief uh, for the
relationship that wasn't griefof not now being in love with a
person I thought was there andso and I feel hugely betrayed
betrayed and pretty stupid aswell that those feelings are
(14:28):
quite messy and in terms of howit's left me feeling just me as
an individual, I feel sort of upuntil quite recently, I've been
feeling fairly scraped out.
I used the phrase evisceratedwhen I was describing how I felt
.
I used the phrase evisceratedwhen I was describing how I felt
(14:50):
on this sort of, you know, theculmination of this of 24 years
and then the culmination of thepost-separation abuse which is
continuing.
I just feel like I've beeneviscerated and I liken it to,
sadly, when bodies go in to beembalmed.
Watched a program a long, longtime ago about embalming and I
feel like I've been embalmedemotionally to just this husk
(15:12):
and so now I'm trying to buildup who I am and that's that's a
kind of going to be an ongoinglifelong process, I suspect.
Yeah, and it's been very hardand I've needed to get support
from mental health charity,mental health body in my area
(15:35):
where I live and differentdomestic abuse agencies.
So I'm fortunate in that I'veknown where to look and I've
been signposted in the rightplaces.
But that doesn't help me atsort of three, four o'clock in
the night, in the morning, whenI can't sleep and I have
nightmares and I've been aninsomniac since November and you
(15:56):
know, physically it's had amassive negative impact on me.
Tamsin Caine (16:01):
I mean, I can't imagine what you're going
through.
I'm not going to'm not gonnapretend that I can, but the
words that you use to describeit, uh, are very, very visual
words and, and I meanunbelievable um, that somebody
could, could behave to somebodyelse like this.
(16:22):
Look at this might be a reallydifficult question to answer,
but, looking back, if you hadbeen aware of coercive control
of domestic abuse not beingnecessarily man hits woman, etc.
Do you think that that youwould have picked up on it
(16:45):
earlier?
Or was it so subtle, the creep,that you you think that
actually it's just impossible topick up on it?
Rachel (16:57):
It is difficult to answer that because I think, in
order to know that something iswrong and coercive and abusive
the part of one's brain that istold something but witnesses
something different.
So her words were A but heractions were B I would have had
(17:22):
to have been able to notice thatwhat I was feeling in my body
was the truth and that what shewas saying was not the truth.
And so, yes, maybe if I'd comeacross the term and I had
friends that say this iscoercive control, maybe that
might have sparked something inme.
(17:44):
But that cognitive dissonancethat one feels when you know she
had an affair, didn't tell meabout it for two years and then
told me about it just after bothmy grandparents had died, a
time when I was emotionally veryvulnerable when she was telling
(18:05):
me that I love you, I love you,I love you, and the golden
period of that love bombingcomes back in such an intense
way.
I don't know that I would havehad the sort of emotional
intelligence to have said tomyself she's saying all this
stuff and she's showing lovemomentarily, but actually what
her actions have been is this soI don't know.
(18:27):
In an ideal world I would havehad the self-compassion and
emotional intelligence to havebeen able to pick that up.
But honestly, I don't think Iwould have done.
I think I was too enmeshedemotionally in that love feeling
(18:52):
and believing what she wassaying, believing that we were.
She was my soulmate.
She'd never met anybody like me.
I was the one for her, She'dalways loved me, she would
always love me.
All of those, all of those kindof very magic thinking, future
faking phrases that I heard allthe time, except for when she
(19:15):
was devaluing me.
I think that would have beenjust, it's just such a big, too
big a contrast.
Well, it was for me anyway, formy little brain to cognitively
process.
Um, yeah, it's a hard one toknow to look back actually do
you know what I?
Tamsin Caine (19:32):
I think, I think you're right and you put in a
position where it creeps up onyou and I'm not sure anybody has
the emotional intelligence tosee what's happening to them and
put yourself in two differentmindsets, as you say.
Rachel (19:49):
So yeah, and the person the person that's doing it
doesn't want you to know.
They don't want you to leave.
Of course they don't.
They don't come up to you andsay, right, I'm going to abuse
you now.
They are really wanting you tostay until they've got the next
one lined up, so they will dowhatever is necessary.
My ex-partner did whatever wasnecessary to make sure that I
(20:12):
was not going to go until shewas ready.
So, yeah, it's not a knownquantity.
So, yeah, that that's.
That's how I feel about myparticular situation absolutely
how.
Tamsin Caine (20:30):
How is this impacting your day-to-day life
now, other than, obviously,you're having huge amounts of
support from different domesticabuse bodies?
What, what kind of outside ofthat?
How, how is day-to-day lifecurrently?
Rachel (20:47):
you've spoken about nightmares and insomnia, which I
can I can only imagine yeah, Ihaven't slept through the nights
, except for about three times,um, since November the 8th, when
our marriage ended, and so thathas a material physical impact
on me and so I, yeah, so I havenightmares that are very sort of
(21:10):
distressing and I have lots ofpanic attacks and anxiety
attacks.
I didn't know what the wordanxiety was before this was
revealed to me, although Irealise that I have been
somebody that has suffered fromanxiety in the past.
Anyway, I just hadn'tcharacterised it as that.
So I find it very difficult toconcentrate, to focus.
(21:31):
I had a month off work.
My employer is really reallysupportive, thankfully my
employer is really reallysupportive, thankfully my
sickness is up and down withwork and so they are really
working with me to make surethat those are classed as
reasonable adjustments because Ihave symptoms of complex PTSD.
(21:54):
So you know my GP's supportive.
To talk to my, my employer,I've been really open and honest
with my employer, um, because Ican't sort of operate it any
other way.
Um, and day to day I have, yeah,anxiety attacks and I just
worry about everything.
I have lots of, you know,periods of rumination and, um,
(22:16):
beating myself up about, oh, Icould have done this better.
I could have not better.
And so I'm running a house,looking after a full-time myself
in a full-time job, and I'vegot a dog and you know, looking
after my child and trying toprovide a safe space for my
child.
When I don't feel safe in myself, it's really, it's really
(22:36):
really hard, and so some daysare easier than others.
I, I don't drink, I don't smoke, don't take drugs, um, and I
don't quite know, I don't quiteknow how I'm managing.
Actually, I just manage verymuch from day to day and I don't
make plans, um, and now whatI'm, my my go-to support is to
(23:00):
reach out to people, becausethat's that's where I get the
most support, because I hadbecome so isolated.
Yeah, and if I, if I need tojust stop, I just have to stop
and go for a sea swim.
That's where I find my calmspace now oh nice, I like that.
Tamsin Caine (23:20):
It's a good job.
You don't live where I dobecause, uh, you see, swim would
be a really long way away yeah,I'm very lucky it's not not too
far away.
Yeah, oh, that sounds.
That sounds brilliant.
Can you get your head aroundwhat might be the lasting impact
of this, or or do you feel thatit's too soon to say what
(23:43):
you're going to be left withafterwards?
Obviously, you've mentionedPTSD, which is something that
seems to stick around for good,albeit manageable.
Rachel (23:56):
I don't know.
I mean, I'm facing a lot oflegal abuse, so my legal costs
are astronomical.
And I had an inheritance frommy grandparents that I'm now
starting to think that sheactually just wanted me to not
have that inheritance because itwill all be gone.
So I will be in debt.
I've not really been in debtbefore in my life not
(24:17):
significantly and I potentiallywill be in tens and tens of
thousands of pounds worth ofdebt just in order to be able to
get the 50-50 equals split ofour marital pot.
That she said no, we don't needlawyers, we don't need
solicitors, we can just do itourselves.
At which I realised that was abig red flag, and I know that
that's a common red flag.
So I will be probablyfinancially destitute and in
(24:40):
debt.
Uh, I don't I.
The lasting, the lastinghallmark impression of this will
I.
I hope that it will mean that Ifind a place in myself that, um
, I haven't accessed before,that is stronger and more
(25:01):
resilient.
I don't feel like that ispossible.
Yet I know that people talkabout post-traumatic growth.
It's not something that I'vecurrently experiencing.
I don't know when that comes.
I certainly know who my friendsare, certainly know more about
you know the patterns of mybehavior, uh, uh, that have not
(25:23):
been healthy, um, but sadlyongoing because we share.
We share our child uh, the theabuse is going to continue.
So I'm going to need to find away in which I can, I suppose,
be my own advocate internally sothat when that abuse continues
(25:46):
because my ex will never stopbeing an abuser how to manage
that.
So that's my long term goal ofhow I'm going to deal with this
is just knowing how to deal withthat ongoing abuse.
Goal of how I'm going to dealwith this is just knowing how to
deal with that ongoing abuse,um, and I hope that, uh, yeah,
the PTSD symptoms, uh, reduceover time with the right help,
(26:07):
and I'm getting the right helpwith trauma support, um, so I'm
hoping that that's that's goingto help me sure, I mean you.
Tamsin Caine (26:18):
You talk about not not feeling that you're in the
post-traumatic growth period,but but the amount of bravery
you show by by coming on tospeak and and help other people
who are in this position is isto me, absolutely incredible and
and I hope one day you'llrecognize that in yourself,
(26:40):
because I'm aware that somebodyelse telling you isn't isn't you
believing it necessarily, but,um, yeah, I think I think it's
incredible.
Rachel (26:48):
I do hope to help other people.
I have uh met some othersurvivors of domestic abuse and
I've used my home as a place forus all to meet up post the
domestic abuse group meetingsthat we've had, so we can all
keep in touch with each other,and I really want other women to
know what this is like, andI've been keeping a daily log of
(27:12):
everything that's happened tome since November and I just
wouldn't want anybody to have toexperience this.
It's uh, if I, if I, can helpanybody, that's that's the main
thing, and I and I do havefriendships now with other uh
abuse survivors and we help eachother and it's it's so
validating to be in a room or inin the company of people that
(27:34):
really understand that domesticabuse isn't man hits woman.
You know that's really valid,absolutely not well.
Tamsin Caine (27:44):
So you talked about um, some of the um
domestic abuse services thathave helped you.
Are you able to talk a bit moreabout um?
Obviously I don't want you todisclose the, the local um
people that have helped, becausewe want to keep you anonymous.
(28:05):
But are you able to talk aboutthe kind of national support
that's available to people, thatthat they are places where they
might be able to go, where youfound, where you found real help
?
Rachel (28:17):
yeah, um, certainly I, I absolutely I've used the
national domestic abuse helplinea lot, um, because I wanted to
speak to other women, um, whowere also speaking to mainly
women, um, to kind of piecetogether what it's like to be on
(28:38):
the receiving end of abuse froma woman, because that's been
quite, you know, I've found thatI have felt, oh god, nobody
will believe me.
My ex-partner is extremelycharming and charismatic and
well-groomed and well-educatedand speaks with a very nice,
calm voice and does not look thepart at all and is a, you know,
a thriving, thrivingbusinesswoman and entrepreneur
(29:02):
and all that kind of stuff.
So I've just wanted to talk topeople who, uh, had a national,
had a kind of overview of that.
This can happen with women.
So I've accessed that and I'vealso accessed an agency which is
a LGBTIQQI agency as well, thathas a domestic abuse arm to it
(29:23):
again, because there are subtle,subtle, nuanced things to do
with, you know, within a kind ofnot heterosexual relationship.
And I've also utilized the NHS.
So my GP has helped enable meto get help from my local
community mental health team, soI've been supported by them.
(29:45):
So, and TalkWorks, so throughthe NHS, and actually it was, it
was on going through the GP andgetting help from the TalkWorks
team and trying to find outwhether I would be suitable for
EMDR therapy.
The talk works person I sawsaid no, you're too traumatized,
you're in the trauma already,you're still experiencing this
(30:07):
trauma.
Emdr needs to happen whenyou're safe.
So, and that then catapulted meinto the more local domestic
abuse agencies where I live thatspecialise in trauma support.
So I think that the and I alsouse the Samaritans a lot, so
(30:29):
probably daily.
At the very beginning I wascalling the Samaritans daily and
all through the night, becausethe night times have been, you
know, the most devastating insome ways to be alone in the
house on my own and frighteningand scary.
So they've been extremely good,as have the crisis team within
(30:52):
the NHS, that's through thecommunity mental health.
So I've used the crisis team aswell.
So that was through the localnumber that I've had access to.
Okay, yeah, there's a lot.
I know that's a lot.
Yeah, the amount of money thathas been spent on me, on my
(31:12):
support, is awful.
That one person on the planethas kind of contributed to my
need to access all of theseservices for free.
It's shocking.
It's shocking that that couldbe the case, because it's yes,
it's all being funded bygovernment or whatever different
(31:34):
public sector agencies.
It's shocking.
Tamsin Caine (31:38):
I guess that's what they're there for, and it's
a shame that they have to bethere for that purpose.
Rachel (31:46):
but it wouldn't exist if there weren't't people needing
those services so, yeah, and I'mreally, I'm really grateful
that they've been there for meand I'm really grateful that
they're there for the women thatI know and that I continue to
meet.
We're all extremely, extremelygrateful, because without,
without that, you know, I thinkthere would be uh, much more
(32:07):
tragedy.
Uh, that, I mean, that's that'sthe reality of it.
You know, the tragedy is thatsuicide suicide for me has felt
like a uh, uh, what's the word?
A more, a more available optionto me than actually getting
over this, and so I havestruggled with that a lot, and
so you know that that's crazy,but that's the reality, and the
(32:29):
reality of that is that thatdoes become the case for some
women, sadly Of course, ofcourse.
Tamsin Caine (32:37):
Again, this might be difficult to answer, but when
you look back, was the abuseprogressive?
Rachel (32:57):
Was the abuse progressive, did it become kind
of start with, for example,financial abuse and move forward
and become bigger jokey digs?
Uh, sort of slight um, uh itnot infidelities, but sort of
the suggestion of infidelity, sonot actual infidelities.
(33:18):
And then there was aninfidelity, um, and so it sort
of ramped up and, um, I think, Ithink, as my ex became more
stressed and where I wasn'tproviding, I wasn't being the
right partner and wasn'tbecoming, I wasn't staying as
(33:38):
controlled as I ought to havebeen, then I became more
critical.
I was then causing her moreangst, that I wasn't towing the
line.
So then what she had donebefore didn't work, so then.
So then the abuse started tosort of change up and get more
overt, because actually it justwasn't working anymore.
(34:00):
What had happened, you know,buying me something or kissing
me or loving me wasn't quiteadequate enough to shut me up,
to keep me from saying, well,actually I don't like it when
you flirt with other womenbehind the bar and that and
that's not, it's not appropriate, and uh, I just wasn't being
quiet enough and I think that,yeah, so so, when things were
(34:21):
not working out for her in inwhatever way she was trying to
get what she needed.
Uh, the abuse sort of escalated,um, and it certainly escalated
when she, she had a she sadly,she had a death in her family,
um, and that sort of seemed to.
(34:41):
It seemed to kind of create andher, I think, a sense of more
loss of control when she lostthis particular family member
and she then felt that sheneeded to control more and I
think that escalated the type ofabuse that I was getting.
(35:05):
It just got worse.
And then the financial abusehas kicked in more since the
separation, where she's holdingthe threat of not paying for
things towards her house over myhead and that's that's a very
overt and very cogent um way ofkeeping me, keeping me quiet.
(35:25):
Like you know, if you, if youdo anything to rock the, then I
will just stop paying towardsthe mortgage and then I lose my
home.
So you know, they're verytangible, real threats and
whilst that threat is instilledin me, it does its job, it works
.
So I still live with that,sadly.
Tamsin Caine (35:47):
Yeah, of course.
Are there things that you thinkthat could be put into place?
I'm thinking post-separationand during the divorce procedure
.
Are there things that you thinkcould be put in place by the
government to stoppost-separation abuse to the
(36:11):
extent that you've experiencedit?
Rachel (36:15):
I've thought about this a lot.
Oh, you might have done.
I'm certainly no expert.
All I know is, from my point ofview, what could be done.
But you know, solicitors aregreat.
They're there to to protectpeople, but they're also there
to do a job and make money.
So I've had to rely onsolicitors because my ex would
(36:36):
not engage in anything otherthan just giving me half the
house, and that was, that wasall she said.
No, you can have half the houseand that's it.
So I wasn't in a position to toknow where to go, and I think it
would be great if solicitorswere able to distinguish well,
that's, you know from the veryget go what is lawful and what
(36:58):
is legal, and then not wastetime writing lots of letters.
So there is always this sort ofback and forth, back and forth,
and I only found out recentlythat all of the letters that
these solicitors write to eachother, they never get put into
bundles that end up in court.
The judges never see them.
They're just letters betweenone solicitor and another
(37:18):
solicitor.
So those letters where thesepeople might say horrible things
about you, they don't ever getseen, and I think that's really
important, that solicitorsshould be really clear about
that important, that solicitorsshould be really clear about
that, that when you can see thatsomebody is wasting the time
and just writing these kind ofletters about, well, can I come
and get my stuff from thegreenhouse, and when are you
going to let me to come and getthings out of the greenhouse?
(37:39):
And I want to come and getthings out of the greenhouse.
You know it's just a constantwasting of time.
So I think solicitors would bewell.
Uh, it would be served well ifsolicitors were were able to get
training in in this sort offinancial and legal abuse.
I'm sure some are my.
My solicitor is was recommendedto me by a particular author of
(38:02):
uh narcissistic and domesticabuse, uh books, so I was put in
touch with somebody who knowsthe landscape.
But that still doesn't stop mehaving to spend thousands of
pounds, and I think that fromsocial workers to the police, to
the lawyers, there needs to bethis joined upness of when you
(38:23):
can see that actually somethingis becoming litigiously messy,
that there's no reason for it.
You know, I think I think thatwould I don't know help some
people if they could, if theyknew that the people that were
there to support them reallyunderstood what coercive control
(38:44):
was about.
And there are people out therewho want to train you know and
can do that sort of training.
And there are people out therewho want to train you know and
can do that sort of training.
And I have.
(39:04):
I have had reason to contact thepolice myself and make and make
not make a statement, but torecord matters and I know that
this coercive control behaviouris doesn't meet the thresholds
that the police require at all.
So whilst coercive control iswithin the Domestic Abuse Act,
the thresholds that you have tomeet in order to even get to
court or even for it to berecognised are so high, the bar
is so high I wouldn't have metany of those.
(39:26):
So there's no point in meraising any allegation, which I
think is sad, really a sadreflection that that that that
act there is there and that thatthat coercive control is part
of that act and yet it's notfully known how to um, uh,
(39:47):
utilize that, that element ofthe act fully for all of those
people that are being affectedby it, unless it's really overt.
Tamsin Caine (39:58):
Crikey.
There's a lot of work still todo, isn't there?
Rachel (40:02):
There's an awful lot of work, and one I wouldn't like to
say it was all awful my son'sschool have been amazing.
I think teachers are probablyincredible they must see this
sort of thing all the time andso my son's school has been
really supportive to him and tome, and so you know there must
(40:22):
be some really great work goingon in some schools, uh, to to to
be able to look out for signsof what you know, this sort of
thing that's happening and howit's affecting kids.
So that I want to you know,don't want to make out like
everything's really awful,because I have had experience of
where things can be put inplace and when they're put in
(40:44):
place, they really work.
They really, really work.
Tamsin Caine (40:48):
That's brilliant.
Well, that's brilliant.
Well, that, that that's areally good news.
Um, great, so we're coming tothe end of our time together.
Is anything that you want tosay before, before we leave this
conversation?
Rachel (41:02):
uh, I would just like to say the thing that's been the
most helpful to me is knowingthat there are other people out
there who are experiencingfeelings of being completely
alone, and I've been listeningto podcasts from all around the
world with different fromdifferent people saying you're
not alone.
You're not alone.
You're not alone at threeo'clock in the morning, four
(41:23):
o'clock in the morning, oneo'clock in the morning.
Put the podcast on.
You're not alone.
You're not going mad.
This, this abuse, is happeningto you.
If your body feels tense andanxious at the thought of your
ex or your partner or whatever,that your body is telling you
something.
Listen to it, really, reallylisten to it, because your
instincts know what's happening.
(41:45):
Whilst you might be told thatit isn't happening and your
brain is trying to tell you it'snot happening because you're
not safe.
But you're not alone and thereare, sadly, there are lots of
people out there who areexperiencing this.
But reach out to whoever youneed to to get support, because
(42:05):
it is there and it's a lonelyplace, so try to find company.
Tamsin Caine (42:12):
Yeah, thank you so much.
Those were brilliant words andyou know you're definitely not
alone.
There are so many supportagencies available, as Rachel
mentioned, the Samaritansthrough the night.
If you need some comfort andsome support, these agencies are
(42:32):
there to provide that.
And and you know, as Rachelsaid, you're definitely not
going mad.
You know, unfortunately, wework with these people who are
victims, survivors of domesticabuse all of the time and it
doesn't always look like um apunch, uh, you know it's quite
often much more um subtle thanthat.
(42:54):
Rachel, thank you so much forjoining me today.
I really appreciate you givingus your time and telling your
story.
Rachel (43:02):
Thank you, you're welcome and it's been nice to be
able to do this, so thank youhi and I hope you enjoyed that
episode of the smart divorcepodcast.
Tamsin Caine (43:17):
If you would like to get in touch, please have a
look in the show notes for ourdetails or go onto the website,
wwwsmartdivorcecouk.
Also, if you are listening onApple Podcasts or on Spotify and
you wouldn't mind leaving us a,lovely five-star review, that
would be fantastic.
I know that lots of ourlisteners are finding this is
(43:39):
incredibly helpful in theirjourney through separation,
divorce and dissolving a civilpartnership.
Also, if you would like somefurther support, we do have a
facebook group now.
It's called separation, divorceand dissolution uk.
Please do go on to facebook,search up the group and we'd be
(44:01):
delighted to have you join us,and the one thing I would say is
do please answer theirmembership questions.
Okay, have a great day and takecare.
Welcome to series 10 of the Smart Divorce podcast.
During this series, we're goingto be speaking about the
difficult subject of domesticabuse.
Unfortunately, during my work,I come across people who are
victim survivors of domesticabuse on a far too regular basis
.
So we're going to be talking tothose who have survived
(00:30):
themselves, to professionalsworking in this area, to
solicitors, to hopefully helpyou to find the right support if
you're in that situation.
This is an iss ue that's notgoing away.
So if you're going through thisor you know anybody who is, I
really hope this series helpsyou.
Thanks for listening.
(00:51):
Hello and welcome to the SmartDivorce Podcast.
Something a little bit differenttoday.
I am really pleased to bejoined by my guest, Rachel,
today.
We are keeping her relativelyanonymous for the reason that
she's been kind and brave enoughto come on to talk to us about
(01:14):
her experiences of domesticabuse today and to kick-start
our latest series, which willall be covering domestic abuse.
So Rachel is 52 years old.
She was in a relationship for24 years with her ex.
14 of those were in a civilpartnership.
They have a 10-year-old sontogether who was birthed by
(01:38):
Rachel's ex.
However, Rachel was the maincarer for the majority of her
son's life or their son's life,and so either during that time
didn't work or was working parttime, so has been not the
financial breadwinner.
Rachel, thank you so much forjoining me today.
(01:58):
I really do appreciate it,you're welcome.
Rachel (02:01):
It's nice to be able to contribute.
Tamsin Caine (02:04):
Absolutely no, it's really appreciated.
So can you tell us when youfirst realized that you were
being subjected to domesticabuse?
Rachel (02:23):
yeah, I mean, I, I'm uh, I probably was a bit slow to
the party because I didn'treally realise that something
was quite significantly wronguntil the day after my
ex-partner ended the marriage.
So, 24 years in, my ex-partnerended the marriage and just kept
(02:44):
saying the marriage is over,and then her behaviour just was
so peculiar that I couldn't makesense of what was happening and
I thought what on earth isgoing on?
This doesn't feel normal.
I knew that my body justthought what is going on?
Because she behaved though shehad just uh cancelled a
(03:04):
newspaper subscription, and thiswas after 24 years of marriage,
and she was very calm and verykind of, uh, collected and
ruthless.
I mean I and I, when I look,it's very difficult because I
look back now with a differentlens to how I felt then, but at
the time I thought somethingsinister is going on and this
word sinister kept popping intomy head and I, um, I very
(03:29):
quickly uh went to see my GPbecause I, you know, um, my
marriage had ended.
I had to call in sick, uh, withmy employer and, um, I need I
knew that I would need a sicknote because I knew that this
wasn't going to be, this wasn'tgoing to be just a three days
off work situation.
So I went to talk to my GP andmy GP said and this was in the
(03:53):
first two days of the marriageending um, my GP said I think
you need to call the domesticabuse helpline, because I
described the sort of behaviorsthat my ex was exhibiting and
that was a total shock.
And but I trusted my GP and Irespected her and I called the
domestic abuse helpline thenational one and they said yes,
(04:14):
you're being subjected tocoercive, controlling and
emotional and psychologicalabuse.
And that was the very start ofit and that was in November 2023
and it's eight months in.
And I've been on this reallyhorrendous journey.
Um, that I, I and I'm now sortof dealing with the, the loss of
(04:34):
the marriage, the loss of whatactually I thought I was in,
that was completely fabricated.
Um, and you know, all of thatsort of sudden awareness has has
been a a real uh reveal moment,which has been really horrible.
Um, so, yeah, I, I didn't knowat the time, at the time,
(04:56):
throughout the relationship, wehad ups and downs and I just
thought that they were sort ofthe ups and downs that other
marriages had.
Um, and I, but I I'm, I wasn'tbrought up knowing about
coercive control or that sort ofabuse.
Domestic abuse to me was verymuch man hits woman, um, you
know that kind of traditional,uh sort of sadly traditional
(05:19):
idea, and so I wasn't lookingfor the signs of a female, uh
perpetrator of domestic abusecarrying that out on me.
I thought I would have noticedthat.
So, yeah, it took me.
It took me to the end of themarriage to notice and from my
experience with domestic abuseagencies, that's quite a common
(05:41):
occurrence in the sort ofsituation where you've got this
insidious psychological andemotional coercive control, it's
just very, by very, very slowdegrees that it, it ramps up.
And then, yeah, as soon as themarriage ended, she was just
quite, uh, I would say, overtlycontrolling, overtly
(06:02):
psychologically damaging andovertly emotionally abusive.
It was just very overt.
It's almost like she couldn'tpretend anymore that she didn't
want to hurt me.
She actively wanted to hurt meand actively wanted to do these
things and was no longerpretending.
Tamsin Caine (06:18):
And that was, that was the, that was the sudden
realizationisation Justheartbreaking, but not
surprising, because I think alot of clients that I work with
are similarly unaware, untilsomebody says to them,
post-separation actually you'reaware that that sounds like
(06:42):
domestic abuse and I think wewere brought up in a generation
where we weren't aware ofcoercive control and almost that
wasn't a phrase that was everused, probably until relatively
recently I think, certainly inthe kind of general public.
In terms of when you look backon the relationship, can you
(07:05):
pinpoint a time that this beganor does it feel like it was
something that was creeping upon you, kind of under the radar,
from day one almost?
Rachel (07:27):
It was certainly creeping under the radar from
day one.
But there, and actually fromday one, there were red flags
and so, um, part of part of thissort of this journey that I've
been on has rendered me quiteisolated from long, long-term
friendships and I've, in someway, I feel quite, uh, a burden
of responsibility that I'veallowed that to happen.
You know it, I could havestayed in touch with old friends
, but I didn't, and I realisedthat that was part and parcel of
(07:48):
being made to feel I didn'tneed anybody else.
You know, my ex-partner neversaid you can't see that person,
apart from one person.
So in the isolation thatgradually grew, I wasn't able to
sort of or I didn't say topeople do you think this is
normal, do you think thisbehavior is kind of okay?
And so the behaviors that my exexhibited at the very beginning
(08:11):
of our relationship weretypical of abusive people.
And having got back in touchwith those old friends that saw
us at the beginning of ourrelationship, one of my good
friends said you were predated,and she used the word predated
(08:34):
in terms of my ex-partner beingpredatory towards me and marking
me out, as you know, somebodythat she was going to get.
As you know, somebody that shewas going to get, and I took
that in my.
You know, working through allof the work that I'm doing now
with the various different abuseagencies, I'm doing my own work
on myself and starting tounderstand what that predatory
(09:00):
sensation was for me.
I thought that it was love.
I thought that I was being, youknow, I was being kind of um
overwhelmed by this love.
I didn't know what love bombingwas at the time, but I was
certainly love bombed.
There was lots of attention,lots of gifts, lots of adoration
, and it was highly, highlyaddictive to me, having maybe
(09:22):
not experienced that very muchin my childhood.
And so, you know, I realizedthat there are patterns within
that abusive, uh, those abusivetraits that I I was willingly um
accepting because becausethat's what I was, I was used to
, and so it didn't seemunfamiliar to me.
But there were red flags.
(09:44):
Then there was infidelity fairlyearly on, and I just sort of
thought, well, I have to, I haveto kind of not necessarily put
up with it, but work through it.
This is part and parcel ofrelationships, and relationships
are not always easy, and it wasmy job to try to make it, make
(10:06):
it work, um and so, um, yeah,the sort of insidious creep of
of the relationship.
And in the coercive sense, Ididn't want to buy a house
together but was coerced intobuying a house together.
We lived in London for a while.
I really didn't want to do thatand my ex-partner made lots of
(10:28):
fun of me and said, oh, you'rejust a commitment phobe, and you
don't, you don't, you don'twant to do it because you're a
commitment phobe and would saythat in front of her family, to
make me feel stupid.
And and I was missing outsomehow on getting on the
housing ladder, um, I thendidn't want to get civilly
partnered, but again she made me, she, she made comments about
(10:50):
well, you're just a commitmentphobe and would say it in front
of her family and friends, um,and passed it, always, always
passed all of these nastycomments off as a joke, um, and
so we bought a house and then wegot civilly partnered, and so
and I now realize that part ofthat coercive control is about
(11:10):
binding you to that individual,that they get you bound, and so
I was, you know, financiallybound with a house.
I then became legally bound toher and um, and then she coerced
me into us having a babytogether and I had.
Anybody that knows me had alwaysknown that I didn't really want
to have children, not because Idon't like them, but because I
(11:31):
just didn't feel that wassomething I wanted to do.
But she coerced me into sayingwell, this is my body, you can't
stop me from wanting a child.
I've wanted a child since I was12.
It's my womb.
I've wanted a child since I was12.
It's my womb.
And kind of went down the routeof I'm an independent woman,
you can't, as another woman,tell me what to do with my womb.
And I was very conscious of notwanting to limit her ability to
(11:56):
have a baby.
But I was in love and I thoughtwe're married.
Ok, I have to.
I have to go along with thisbecause we're married and I've
made this commitment and I'm ofthe opinion that once you make a
commitment, that's it.
You do stick.
And so, anyway, then we ended upon the journey of IVF and she
got pregnant and we had ourchild in 2013.
(12:22):
And so, yes, there was a veryslow, insidious, creeping build
of of this coercive control andpeppered within these big life
events like buying a house andgetting married, she was, she
was dealing with things like thefinances saying that she wanted
to do it, she liked it, shewould always have spreadsheets,
(12:44):
she organized mortgages, sheorganized car insurances, things
like that.
Um, and it was always a case ofno, let me do that because I
like doing it and I'm good at it.
Um, and all the while, veryslowly, when I look back, uh, my
self-esteem was just gettinglower and lower and lower and
lower and lower, and I juststarted to feel worse about
(13:04):
myself and I just thought, andshe would sort of say, well, I
think you need to go and see atherapist.
So I would go and see atherapist and I would get help
for me to try to figure out whatwas wrong with me.
And that was, yeah, that waskind of I suppose that's the
slow creep of that kind of powerplay.
(13:25):
Really, ultimately, it waspower play that I didn't know
that I was being played thatgame.
Tamsin Caine (13:34):
How are you feeling now about what you've
been through and how do you feelabout the relationship now,
kind of looking back on it?
Rachel (13:44):
It's easier to answer the second question.
When I look back on therelationship, I feel that I was
with a con woman, you know, likethe old school con person uh,
that none of it's real, it's alltotally false.
The only stuff that was realwere my feelings of love and
commitment, and so I havenothing to cling on to about the
(14:06):
relationship.
It was all fake.
And so I'm dealing with a lotof grief uh, for the
relationship that wasn't griefof not now being in love with a
person I thought was there andso and I feel hugely betrayed
betrayed and pretty stupid aswell that those feelings are
(14:28):
quite messy and in terms of howit's left me feeling just me as
an individual, I feel sort of upuntil quite recently, I've been
feeling fairly scraped out.
I used the phrase evisceratedwhen I was describing how I felt
.
I used the phrase evisceratedwhen I was describing how I felt
(14:50):
on this sort of, you know, theculmination of this of 24 years
and then the culmination of thepost-separation abuse which is
continuing.
I just feel like I've beeneviscerated and I liken it to,
sadly, when bodies go in to beembalmed.
Watched a program a long, longtime ago about embalming and I
feel like I've been embalmedemotionally to just this husk
(15:12):
and so now I'm trying to buildup who I am and that's that's a
kind of going to be an ongoinglifelong process, I suspect.
Yeah, and it's been very hardand I've needed to get support
from mental health charity,mental health body in my area
(15:35):
where I live and differentdomestic abuse agencies.
So I'm fortunate in that I'veknown where to look and I've
been signposted in the rightplaces.
But that doesn't help me atsort of three, four o'clock in
the night, in the morning, whenI can't sleep and I have
nightmares and I've been aninsomniac since November and you
(15:56):
know, physically it's had amassive negative impact on me.
Tamsin Caine (16:01):
I mean, I can't imagine what you're going
through.
I'm not going to'm not gonnapretend that I can, but the
words that you use to describeit, uh, are very, very visual
words and, and I meanunbelievable um, that somebody
could, could behave to somebodyelse like this.
(16:22):
Look at this might be a reallydifficult question to answer,
but, looking back, if you hadbeen aware of coercive control
of domestic abuse not beingnecessarily man hits woman, etc.
Do you think that that youwould have picked up on it
(16:45):
earlier?
Or was it so subtle, the creep,that you you think that
actually it's just impossible topick up on it?
Rachel (16:57):
It is difficult to answer that because I think, in
order to know that something iswrong and coercive and abusive
the part of one's brain that istold something but witnesses
something different.
So her words were A but heractions were B I would have had
(17:22):
to have been able to notice thatwhat I was feeling in my body
was the truth and that what shewas saying was not the truth.
And so, yes, maybe if I'd comeacross the term and I had
friends that say this iscoercive control, maybe that
might have sparked something inme.
(17:44):
But that cognitive dissonancethat one feels when you know she
had an affair, didn't tell meabout it for two years and then
told me about it just after bothmy grandparents had died, a
time when I was emotionally veryvulnerable when she was telling
(18:05):
me that I love you, I love you,I love you, and the golden
period of that love bombingcomes back in such an intense
way.
I don't know that I would havehad the sort of emotional
intelligence to have said tomyself she's saying all this
stuff and she's showing lovemomentarily, but actually what
her actions have been is this soI don't know.
(18:27):
In an ideal world I would havehad the self-compassion and
emotional intelligence to havebeen able to pick that up.
But honestly, I don't think Iwould have done.
I think I was too enmeshedemotionally in that love feeling
(18:52):
and believing what she wassaying, believing that we were.
She was my soulmate.
She'd never met anybody like me.
I was the one for her, She'dalways loved me, she would
always love me.
All of those, all of those kindof very magic thinking, future
faking phrases that I heard allthe time, except for when she
(19:15):
was devaluing me.
I think that would have beenjust, it's just such a big, too
big a contrast.
Well, it was for me anyway, formy little brain to cognitively
process.
Um, yeah, it's a hard one toknow to look back actually do
you know what I?
Tamsin Caine (19:32):
I think, I think you're right and you put in a
position where it creeps up onyou and I'm not sure anybody has
the emotional intelligence tosee what's happening to them and
put yourself in two differentmindsets, as you say.
Rachel (19:49):
So yeah, and the person the person that's doing it
doesn't want you to know.
They don't want you to leave.
Of course they don't.
They don't come up to you andsay, right, I'm going to abuse
you now.
They are really wanting you tostay until they've got the next
one lined up, so they will dowhatever is necessary.
My ex-partner did whatever wasnecessary to make sure that I
(20:12):
was not going to go until shewas ready.
So, yeah, it's not a knownquantity.
So, yeah, that that's.
That's how I feel about myparticular situation absolutely
how.
Tamsin Caine (20:30):
How is this impacting your day-to-day life
now, other than, obviously,you're having huge amounts of
support from different domesticabuse bodies?
What, what kind of outside ofthat?
How, how is day-to-day lifecurrently?
Rachel (20:47):
you've spoken about nightmares and insomnia, which I
can I can only imagine yeah, Ihaven't slept through the nights
, except for about three times,um, since November the 8th, when
our marriage ended, and so thathas a material physical impact
on me and so I, yeah, so I havenightmares that are very sort of
(21:10):
distressing and I have lots ofpanic attacks and anxiety
attacks.
I didn't know what the wordanxiety was before this was
revealed to me, although Irealise that I have been
somebody that has suffered fromanxiety in the past.
Anyway, I just hadn'tcharacterised it as that.
So I find it very difficult toconcentrate, to focus.
(21:31):
I had a month off work.
My employer is really reallysupportive, thankfully my
employer is really reallysupportive, thankfully my
sickness is up and down withwork and so they are really
working with me to make surethat those are classed as
reasonable adjustments because Ihave symptoms of complex PTSD.
(21:54):
So you know my GP's supportive.
To talk to my, my employer,I've been really open and honest
with my employer, um, because Ican't sort of operate it any
other way.
Um, and day to day I have, yeah,anxiety attacks and I just
worry about everything.
I have lots of, you know,periods of rumination and, um,
(22:16):
beating myself up about, oh, Icould have done this better.
I could have not better.
And so I'm running a house,looking after a full-time myself
in a full-time job, and I'vegot a dog and you know, looking
after my child and trying toprovide a safe space for my
child.
When I don't feel safe in myself, it's really, it's really
(22:36):
really hard, and so some daysare easier than others.
I, I don't drink, I don't smoke, don't take drugs, um, and I
don't quite know, I don't quiteknow how I'm managing.
Actually, I just manage verymuch from day to day and I don't
make plans, um, and now whatI'm, my my go-to support is to
(23:00):
reach out to people, becausethat's that's where I get the
most support, because I hadbecome so isolated.
Yeah, and if I, if I need tojust stop, I just have to stop
and go for a sea swim.
That's where I find my calmspace now oh nice, I like that.
Tamsin Caine (23:20):
It's a good job.
You don't live where I dobecause, uh, you see, swim would
be a really long way away yeah,I'm very lucky it's not not too
far away.
Yeah, oh, that sounds.
That sounds brilliant.
Can you get your head aroundwhat might be the lasting impact
of this, or or do you feel thatit's too soon to say what
(23:43):
you're going to be left withafterwards?
Obviously, you've mentionedPTSD, which is something that
seems to stick around for good,albeit manageable.
Rachel (23:56):
I don't know.
I mean, I'm facing a lot oflegal abuse, so my legal costs
are astronomical.
And I had an inheritance frommy grandparents that I'm now
starting to think that sheactually just wanted me to not
have that inheritance because itwill all be gone.
So I will be in debt.
I've not really been in debtbefore in my life not
(24:17):
significantly and I potentiallywill be in tens and tens of
thousands of pounds worth ofdebt just in order to be able to
get the 50-50 equals split ofour marital pot.
That she said no, we don't needlawyers, we don't need
solicitors, we can just do itourselves.
At which I realised that was abig red flag, and I know that
that's a common red flag.
So I will be probablyfinancially destitute and in
(24:40):
debt.
Uh, I don't I.
The lasting, the lastinghallmark impression of this will
I.
I hope that it will mean that Ifind a place in myself that, um
, I haven't accessed before,that is stronger and more
(25:01):
resilient.
I don't feel like that ispossible.
Yet I know that people talkabout post-traumatic growth.
It's not something that I'vecurrently experiencing.
I don't know when that comes.
I certainly know who my friendsare, certainly know more about
you know the patterns of mybehavior, uh, uh, that have not
(25:23):
been healthy, um, but sadlyongoing because we share.
We share our child uh, the theabuse is going to continue.
So I'm going to need to find away in which I can, I suppose,
be my own advocate internally sothat when that abuse continues
(25:46):
because my ex will never stopbeing an abuser how to manage
that.
So that's my long term goal ofhow I'm going to deal with this
is just knowing how to deal withthat ongoing abuse.
Goal of how I'm going to dealwith this is just knowing how to
deal with that ongoing abuse,um, and I hope that, uh, yeah,
the PTSD symptoms, uh, reduceover time with the right help,
(26:07):
and I'm getting the right helpwith trauma support, um, so I'm
hoping that that's that's goingto help me sure, I mean you.
Tamsin Caine (26:18):
You talk about not not feeling that you're in the
post-traumatic growth period,but but the amount of bravery
you show by by coming on tospeak and and help other people
who are in this position is isto me, absolutely incredible and
and I hope one day you'llrecognize that in yourself,
(26:40):
because I'm aware that somebodyelse telling you isn't isn't you
believing it necessarily, but,um, yeah, I think I think it's
incredible.
Rachel (26:48):
I do hope to help other people.
I have uh met some othersurvivors of domestic abuse and
I've used my home as a place forus all to meet up post the
domestic abuse group meetingsthat we've had, so we can all
keep in touch with each other,and I really want other women to
know what this is like, andI've been keeping a daily log of
(27:12):
everything that's happened tome since November and I just
wouldn't want anybody to have toexperience this.
It's uh, if I, if I, can helpanybody, that's that's the main
thing, and I and I do havefriendships now with other uh
abuse survivors and we help eachother and it's it's so
validating to be in a room or inin the company of people that
(27:34):
really understand that domesticabuse isn't man hits woman.
You know that's really valid,absolutely not well.
Tamsin Caine (27:44):
So you talked about um, some of the um
domestic abuse services thathave helped you.
Are you able to talk a bit moreabout um?
Obviously I don't want you todisclose the, the local um
people that have helped, becausewe want to keep you anonymous.
(28:05):
But are you able to talk aboutthe kind of national support
that's available to people, thatthat they are places where they
might be able to go, where youfound, where you found real help
?
Rachel (28:17):
yeah, um, certainly I, I absolutely I've used the
national domestic abuse helplinea lot, um, because I wanted to
speak to other women, um, whowere also speaking to mainly
women, um, to kind of piecetogether what it's like to be on
(28:38):
the receiving end of abuse froma woman, because that's been
quite, you know, I've found thatI have felt, oh god, nobody
will believe me.
My ex-partner is extremelycharming and charismatic and
well-groomed and well-educatedand speaks with a very nice,
calm voice and does not look thepart at all and is a, you know,
a thriving, thrivingbusinesswoman and entrepreneur
(29:02):
and all that kind of stuff.
So I've just wanted to talk topeople who, uh, had a national,
had a kind of overview of that.
This can happen with women.
So I've accessed that and I'vealso accessed an agency which is
a LGBTIQQI agency as well, thathas a domestic abuse arm to it
(29:23):
again, because there are subtle,subtle, nuanced things to do
with, you know, within a kind ofnot heterosexual relationship.
And I've also utilized the NHS.
So my GP has helped enable meto get help from my local
community mental health team, soI've been supported by them.
(29:45):
So, and TalkWorks, so throughthe NHS, and actually it was, it
was on going through the GP andgetting help from the TalkWorks
team and trying to find outwhether I would be suitable for
EMDR therapy.
The talk works person I sawsaid no, you're too traumatized,
you're in the trauma already,you're still experiencing this
(30:07):
trauma.
Emdr needs to happen whenyou're safe.
So, and that then catapulted meinto the more local domestic
abuse agencies where I live thatspecialise in trauma support.
So I think that the and I alsouse the Samaritans a lot, so
(30:29):
probably daily.
At the very beginning I wascalling the Samaritans daily and
all through the night, becausethe night times have been, you
know, the most devastating insome ways to be alone in the
house on my own and frighteningand scary.
So they've been extremely good,as have the crisis team within
(30:52):
the NHS, that's through thecommunity mental health.
So I've used the crisis team aswell.
So that was through the localnumber that I've had access to.
Okay, yeah, there's a lot.
I know that's a lot.
Yeah, the amount of money thathas been spent on me, on my
(31:12):
support, is awful.
That one person on the planethas kind of contributed to my
need to access all of theseservices for free.
It's shocking.
It's shocking that that couldbe the case, because it's yes,
it's all being funded bygovernment or whatever different
(31:34):
public sector agencies.
It's shocking.
Tamsin Caine (31:38):
I guess that's what they're there for, and it's
a shame that they have to bethere for that purpose.
Rachel (31:46):
but it wouldn't exist if there weren't't people needing
those services so, yeah, and I'mreally, I'm really grateful
that they've been there for meand I'm really grateful that
they're there for the women thatI know and that I continue to
meet.
We're all extremely, extremelygrateful, because without,
without that, you know, I thinkthere would be uh, much more
(32:07):
tragedy.
Uh, that, I mean, that's that'sthe reality of it.
You know, the tragedy is thatsuicide suicide for me has felt
like a uh, uh, what's the word?
A more, a more available optionto me than actually getting
over this, and so I havestruggled with that a lot, and
so you know that that's crazy,but that's the reality, and the
(32:29):
reality of that is that thatdoes become the case for some
women, sadly Of course, ofcourse.
Tamsin Caine (32:37):
Again, this might be difficult to answer, but when
you look back, was the abuseprogressive?
Rachel (32:57):
Was the abuse progressive, did it become kind
of start with, for example,financial abuse and move forward
and become bigger jokey digs?
Uh, sort of slight um, uh itnot infidelities, but sort of
the suggestion of infidelity, sonot actual infidelities.
(33:18):
And then there was aninfidelity, um, and so it sort
of ramped up and, um, I think, Ithink, as my ex became more
stressed and where I wasn'tproviding, I wasn't being the
right partner and wasn'tbecoming, I wasn't staying as
(33:38):
controlled as I ought to havebeen, then I became more
critical.
I was then causing her moreangst, that I wasn't towing the
line.
So then what she had donebefore didn't work, so then.
So then the abuse started tosort of change up and get more
overt, because actually it justwasn't working anymore.
(34:00):
What had happened, you know,buying me something or kissing
me or loving me wasn't quiteadequate enough to shut me up,
to keep me from saying, well,actually I don't like it when
you flirt with other womenbehind the bar and that and
that's not, it's not appropriate, and uh, I just wasn't being
quiet enough and I think that,yeah, so so, when things were
(34:21):
not working out for her in inwhatever way she was trying to
get what she needed.
Uh, the abuse sort of escalated,um, and it certainly escalated
when she, she had a she sadly,she had a death in her family,
um, and that sort of seemed to.
(34:41):
It seemed to kind of create andher, I think, a sense of more
loss of control when she lostthis particular family member
and she then felt that sheneeded to control more and I
think that escalated the type ofabuse that I was getting.
(35:05):
It just got worse.
And then the financial abusehas kicked in more since the
separation, where she's holdingthe threat of not paying for
things towards her house over myhead and that's that's a very
overt and very cogent um way ofkeeping me, keeping me quiet.
(35:25):
Like you know, if you, if youdo anything to rock the, then I
will just stop paying towardsthe mortgage and then I lose my
home.
So you know, they're verytangible, real threats and
whilst that threat is instilledin me, it does its job, it works
.
So I still live with that,sadly.
Tamsin Caine (35:47):
Yeah, of course.
Are there things that you thinkthat could be put into place?
I'm thinking post-separationand during the divorce procedure
.
Are there things that you thinkcould be put in place by the
government to stoppost-separation abuse to the
(36:11):
extent that you've experiencedit?
Rachel (36:15):
I've thought about this a lot.
Oh, you might have done.
I'm certainly no expert.
All I know is, from my point ofview, what could be done.
But you know, solicitors aregreat.
They're there to to protectpeople, but they're also there
to do a job and make money.
So I've had to rely onsolicitors because my ex would
(36:36):
not engage in anything otherthan just giving me half the
house, and that was, that wasall she said.
No, you can have half the houseand that's it.
So I wasn't in a position to toknow where to go, and I think it
would be great if solicitorswere able to distinguish well,
that's, you know from the veryget go what is lawful and what
(36:58):
is legal, and then not wastetime writing lots of letters.
So there is always this sort ofback and forth, back and forth,
and I only found out recentlythat all of the letters that
these solicitors write to eachother, they never get put into
bundles that end up in court.
The judges never see them.
They're just letters betweenone solicitor and another
(37:18):
solicitor.
So those letters where thesepeople might say horrible things
about you, they don't ever getseen, and I think that's really
important, that solicitorsshould be really clear about
that important, that solicitorsshould be really clear about
that, that when you can see thatsomebody is wasting the time
and just writing these kind ofletters about, well, can I come
and get my stuff from thegreenhouse, and when are you
going to let me to come and getthings out of the greenhouse?
(37:39):
And I want to come and getthings out of the greenhouse.
You know it's just a constantwasting of time.
So I think solicitors would bewell.
Uh, it would be served well ifsolicitors were were able to get
training in in this sort offinancial and legal abuse.
I'm sure some are my.
My solicitor is was recommendedto me by a particular author of
(38:02):
uh narcissistic and domesticabuse, uh books, so I was put in
touch with somebody who knowsthe landscape.
But that still doesn't stop mehaving to spend thousands of
pounds, and I think that fromsocial workers to the police, to
the lawyers, there needs to bethis joined upness of when you
(38:23):
can see that actually somethingis becoming litigiously messy,
that there's no reason for it.
You know, I think I think thatwould I don't know help some
people if they could, if theyknew that the people that were
there to support them reallyunderstood what coercive control
(38:44):
was about.
And there are people out therewho want to train you know and
can do that sort of training.
And there are people out therewho want to train you know and
can do that sort of training.
And I have.
(39:04):
I have had reason to contact thepolice myself and make and make
not make a statement, but torecord matters and I know that
this coercive control behaviouris doesn't meet the thresholds
that the police require at all.
So whilst coercive control iswithin the Domestic Abuse Act,
the thresholds that you have tomeet in order to even get to
court or even for it to berecognised are so high, the bar
is so high I wouldn't have metany of those.
(39:26):
So there's no point in meraising any allegation, which I
think is sad, really a sadreflection that that that that
act there is there and that thatthat coercive control is part
of that act and yet it's notfully known how to um, uh,
(39:47):
utilize that, that element ofthe act fully for all of those
people that are being affectedby it, unless it's really overt.
Tamsin Caine (39:58):
Crikey.
There's a lot of work still todo, isn't there?
Rachel (40:02):
There's an awful lot of work, and one I wouldn't like to
say it was all awful my son'sschool have been amazing.
I think teachers are probablyincredible they must see this
sort of thing all the time andso my son's school has been
really supportive to him and tome, and so you know there must
(40:22):
be some really great work goingon in some schools, uh, to to to
be able to look out for signsof what you know, this sort of
thing that's happening and howit's affecting kids.
So that I want to you know,don't want to make out like
everything's really awful,because I have had experience of
where things can be put inplace and when they're put in
(40:44):
place, they really work.
They really, really work.
Tamsin Caine (40:48):
That's brilliant.
Well, that's brilliant.
Well, that, that that's areally good news.
Um, great, so we're coming tothe end of our time together.
Is anything that you want tosay before, before we leave this
conversation?
Rachel (41:02):
uh, I would just like to say the thing that's been the
most helpful to me is knowingthat there are other people out
there who are experiencingfeelings of being completely
alone, and I've been listeningto podcasts from all around the
world with different fromdifferent people saying you're
not alone.
You're not alone.
You're not alone at threeo'clock in the morning, four
(41:23):
o'clock in the morning, oneo'clock in the morning.
Put the podcast on.
You're not alone.
You're not going mad.
This, this abuse, is happeningto you.
If your body feels tense andanxious at the thought of your
ex or your partner or whatever,that your body is telling you
something.
Listen to it, really, reallylisten to it, because your
instincts know what's happening.
(41:45):
Whilst you might be told thatit isn't happening and your
brain is trying to tell you it'snot happening because you're
not safe.
But you're not alone and thereare, sadly, there are lots of
people out there who areexperiencing this.
But reach out to whoever youneed to to get support, because
(42:05):
it is there and it's a lonelyplace, so try to find company.
Tamsin Caine (42:12):
Yeah, thank you so much.
Those were brilliant words andyou know you're definitely not
alone.
There are so many supportagencies available, as Rachel
mentioned, the Samaritansthrough the night.
If you need some comfort andsome support, these agencies are
(42:32):
there to provide that.
And and you know, as Rachelsaid, you're definitely not
going mad.
You know, unfortunately, wework with these people who are
victims, survivors of domesticabuse all of the time and it
doesn't always look like um apunch, uh, you know it's quite
often much more um subtle thanthat.
(42:54):
Rachel, thank you so much forjoining me today.
I really appreciate you givingus your time and telling your
story.
Rachel (43:02):
Thank you, you're welcome and it's been nice to be
able to do this, so thank youhi and I hope you enjoyed that
episode of the smart divorcepodcast.
Tamsin Caine (43:17):
If you would like to get in touch, please have a
look in the show notes for ourdetails or go onto the website,
wwwsmartdivorcecouk.
Also, if you are listening onApple Podcasts or on Spotify and
you wouldn't mind leaving us a,lovely five-star review, that
would be fantastic.
I know that lots of ourlisteners are finding this is
(43:39):
incredibly helpful in theirjourney through separation,
divorce and dissolving a civilpartnership.
Also, if you would like somefurther support, we do have a
facebook group now.
It's called separation, divorceand dissolution uk.
Please do go on to facebook,search up the group and we'd be
(44:01):
delighted to have you join us,and the one thing I would say is
do please answer theirmembership questions.
Okay, have a great day and takecare.
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