April 4, 2025 • 30 mins
Your ex always seems one step ahead in divorce negotiations? They might be digitally spying on you. From email forwarding to WhatsApp monitoring—learn how abusers exploit technology and what you can do about it. In this episode, Tamsin is joined by Danny Franks, a cyber security expert to discuss the issues and how to protect yourself.
Danny Franks
Danny Franks, also known as "Danny the I.T. Man," is an experienced executive with the ability for helping people. He kicked off his entrepreneurial journey in 2002 by starting a Managed Service Provider business provide IT support to businesses in and around Greater Manchester. In 2014, he took things up a notch by acquiring a telephony company, and he successfully sold both businesses in 2018.
Danny is all about paying attention to detail and making sure everything is just right. A year ago, he launched Blaze Hill, a company dedicated to providing discreet help to those dealing with computer and technical issues. His thorough approach ensures that every client gets excellent and diligent service.
Tamsin Caine
Tamsin is a Chartered Financial Planner with over 20 years experience. She works with couples and individuals who are at the end of a relationship and want agree how to divide their assets FAIRLY without a fight.
You can contact Tamsin at tamsin@smartdivorce.co.uk or arrange a free initial meeting using https://bit.ly/SmDiv15min. She is also part of the team running Facebook group Separation, Divorce and Dissolution UK
Tamsin Caine MSc., FPFS
Chartered Financial Planner
Smart Divorce Ltd
https://smartdivorce.co.uk
P.S. I am the co-author of “My Divorce Handbook – It’s What You Do Next That Counts”, written by divorce specialists and lawyers writing about their area of expertise to help walk you through the divorce process. You can buy it here https://yourdivorcehandbook.co.uk/buy-the-book/
To learn more about our podcast sponsor Ampla Finance – access their product guide here: https://bit.ly/3Ieqmuc
Or complete enquiry form https://bit.ly/3W4J7pz and one of the team will be in touch.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tamsin Caine (00:06):
Welcome to series 10 of the Smart Divorce Podcast.
During this series, we're goingto be speaking about the
difficult subject of domesticabuse.
Unfortunately, during my work,I come across people who are
victim survivors of domesticabuse on a far too regular basis
.
So we're going to be talking tothose who have survived
(00:30):
themselves, to professionalsworking in this area, to
solicitors, to hopefully helpyou to find the right support if
you're in that situation.
This is an issue that's notgoing away.
So if you're going through thisor you know anybody who is, I
really hope this series helpsyou.
Thanks for listening.
(00:55):
Hello and welcome to today'sSmart Divorce Podcast, and I'm
really chuffed to be joinedtoday by a very old friend, my
friend Danny Franks, who we metdoing networking a very, very
long time ago and recentlyrealised that some of the work
that Danny does could bemassively helpful to you out
(01:19):
there.
So I'm going to ask Danny tointroduce you and I'm thinking
he's going to use a slightlydifferent introduction to the
one he used when he introducedhimself to me all those years
ago.
So welcome, Danny.
Thanks for joining me.
Danny Franks (01:33):
Hi, tamsin, good to see you again.
Tamsin Caine (01:36):
And you, can you tell us a little bit about you
and your business and the sortof work that you do?
Danny Franks (01:44):
So the work that I do is general technical IT,
helping people secure theirnetworks and their technology,
and I suppose in the last six,12 months I've been focusing on
individuals helping individualswith their technology, home IT,
(02:06):
home businesses.
And then recently I've beenasked by some individuals to
help them understand their owntechnology because some strange
things have been happening withtheir technology or their
information.
Tamsin Caine (02:21):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and it's at this
point that we, that we felt,felt that we might have some um,
some things in common and somethings you could, you could help
our listeners with.
So during this series we'vetalked a lot about domestic
abuse, and we know that one ofthe ways in which victim
survivors are targeted is by theperpetrator having sight of
(02:46):
their IT, having trackingdevices, and I know that's
something that you've workedwith a number of people on
recently.
So could you tell us a littlebit about how those people have
come to you and about what youcan do if an individual suspects
there is tracking on theirdevices?
Danny Franks (03:06):
Okay so, I was referred some months ago by a
friend of mine who I was lookingafter their technology, saying
can you help out a friend ofmine?
She's not really good on thetechnology, she just wants some
help like logging into accounts,saving new passwords and just
transferring over certaininformation so she could become
(03:29):
more independent with hertechnology from her partner.
Now, at that time I didn't knowshe was going through a divorce
, but it became quite apparentwhen I was working with her on
the first visit that there wereforwarders on a mail, there was
shared accounts whereby shedidn't know the passwords to
(03:54):
those shared accounts, and someof her own accounts she didn't
know the passwords to, which shethought strange, but she didn't
think anything of it becauseshe thought she'd just forgotten
about it.
And so as time went on, werealized that some of the emails
were being forwarded.
Well, not some of the emails, alot of it.
(04:18):
All her emails were beingforwarded to her partner and
anything incoming or outgoingwas being surveilled by her
partner.
At which point there was a bitof a red flag and I said we need
to stop this.
Did you know about this?
And she came back and said "Iwondered why he was always one
step ahead of me when it came tonegotiations, speaking to my
lawyer, so I can't say I fellinto this sort of work, but it's
(04:45):
the first time I've come acrosswork or a client whereby
they've not been hacked.
It's almost a soft hack.
So when somebody's systems goesdown and they don't know who it
is and they've got ransomware,then that's very different than
(05:07):
this, because they're beingtargeted from the inside and
they don't know about it.
So I was able to identify theissues and rectify them.
Tamsin Caine (05:18):
Yeah, absolutely.
In those sorts of situations isit a question of having to set
up brand new accounts and havingto almost start from scratch?
Are there things that can bedone with existing accounts?
Danny Franks (05:31):
Interestingly, the second client that I came
across with this sort of thing.
We set up a completely newaccount for her to liaise with
her solicitor on, because wethought it might have been how
can I say in her interest forher other half to understand,
how can I say to lead them down,not lead them down the garden
path, but let them have otherinformation so that you know she
(05:55):
was aware of it.
She said I don't want toactually block this off, but I
want a new account, I want tomake sure it's secure, I want to
change all my personal accessto my new email account, and it
was just going through them andjust ensuring that all of that
was happening.
So it wasn't as straightforwardas I thought.
As you've just suggested, yeah,dead easy, just get the account
(06:18):
back, rename it.
This was more of my secondclient, whereby they just wanted
to almost manage the situationin a different way let's put it
like that whereby they then hada new email address which they
were then liaising with theirsolicitor
(06:39):
and have you come acrossanybody who's got trackers put
on their so kind of other?
I guess you know we all thinkWhatsApp, I guess, is the big
example, because we all thinkthat's pretty safe and secure,
because we all think it's.
(07:00):
It's encrypted.
It's point-to-point encrypted.
Tamsin Caine (07:03):
Yeah, when it goes from one to another, but I know
there's been instances ofpeople having trackers on their
hardware that seem to be able totrack those sorts of things as
well, so are you able to helpwith that?
Danny Franks (07:19):
So with WhatsApp, again, it's fairly easy to reset
up if you get the user's phone.
Now, if there's any preemptivethought to what somebody else is
doing, they can quite easilyset up a WhatsApp account, or
should I say shared WhatsApp, ontheir PC or their laptop or
(07:43):
their desktop of their partner,without the partner really
knowing to see the messagescoming in and going out.
And that isn't a bit ofsoftware, that's just WhatsApp
itself.
There's some Find Me softwarewhich is part of Google, which
can be enabled, which is burieda couple of layers down within
(08:04):
the software, where it just isturned on.
So again, that can be easilydone if somebody has the right
knowledge to be able to turn iton on their partner's phone and
say I'm tracking you.
There's nothing that pops upeach day to say your phone is
being tracked or you are beingtracked.
So the user wouldn't reallyhave knowledge of that being
(08:26):
tracked.
So the user wouldn't reallyhave knowledge of that.
And if the partner has been theone that looks after the
technology, look after thephones, it's quite easy for them
to do that in a way that isn'tgoing to be suspicious.
You know, you know it can beall premeditated, it can all be
preplanned, and if they've got ahistory of, you know,
(08:52):
controlling their partner, thenthis might be something that's
been going on for a long time.
So you know it's been able toidentify that sort of um action
that's been taken on the phonesas well.
You know quite early on.
So you don't necessarily needto install any specific software
.
Tamsin Caine (09:11):
The software is already on the phone, uh for for
for somebody to get access toit yeah, it's about having those
, those um pieces of software ona different like replicated on
a different device and thatinformation just feeds straight
through to it correct and theend user doesn't necessarily
know.
Danny Franks (09:31):
So I suppose if you were to set up whatsapp on
your desktop, um, you would beable to see the whatsapp
messages both on phone and onyour desktop, but you don't get
notified on your phone to sayit's coming through to your
desktop as well.
Tamsin Caine (09:45):
Yeah, absolutely.
So what can you do about thatthen, because that's really
frightening that that can begoing on without your knowledge
at all.
Danny Franks (09:59):
So it's just being aware.
I mean you can check on yourWhatsApp what devices are
connected.
You can check your Googlelocations.
You know whether you're sharingyour locations.
You can check if there's anyforwarders on your emails going
to any other accounts and anydiverts on any emails going out.
(10:19):
So there's some things that youcan check quite easily.
And then you know you shouldalso be aware of software which
you know you're not familiarwith or apps on your phone that
you're not familiar with.
But as most of us have got over50 or 60 apps on our phones,
sometimes very difficult to siftthrough, you know which ones
(10:41):
you've put on recently and thosethat you've put on years ago,
those that have transferred froman old device to those that
somebody else might have put onto track you.
So it can be challenging, butit's a case of understanding
your own technology, being awareof.
You know the devices that youuse, having some control on that
(11:02):
and ensuring that you know whatyou're doing or get some help
to know what you're doing.
Tamsin Caine (11:09):
Yeah, absolutely.
And if you're it's the samewith the people that I work with
who aren't used to lookingafter their own money If you're
not particularly technologicallycan't speak um savvy, then you
do need somebody to to help youout, don't you?
And that's where you come in, Iguess.
(11:29):
So what would the process bethat you would go through if you
were approached by somebody whowho wanted to check out whether
they were being tracked,whether emails were being
forwarded, etc.
Danny Franks (11:41):
So what would the process be when I first met them
?
Or they'd give me a call, soinitially it'd be a call.
The way that it has happened isit's fairly straightforward I
call, I go and see the client.
I don't work remotely.
I pretty much have a look attheir laptops and their mobile
(12:08):
phones and any other devicesthat they've got, you know, see
if it's connected to homeheating or CCTV or music systems
, because they can play a partas well.
You know whereby the partnermight be setting alarms or
setting systems to come onduring the day and the partner
doesn't know how to work themusic system or turn the CCTV on
(12:32):
or off, and so on and so forth.
So it's basically doing a miniaudit, but a soft audit, just to
talk through, understand any ofthe concerns my clients have
got regarding the data,regarding how they use it, and
then just walking them througheach of the products that they
use.
If they're really not happywith how can I say how they're
(12:57):
feeling, we can reinstall themachine, put new passwords on it
, reinstall the software, givethem a new gmail account or
email account sorry, gmail queryoutlook and start afresh so
that they are completelyseparate from their partners.
Um, how can say technologyworld?
Tamsin Caine (13:16):
and they can start again and I guess I'm thinking
about kind of so I live with mytwo kids, I've got my personal
phone, I've got a work phone,I've got a laptop you know lots
of people have ipads and then,of course, there's the kids
technology in the house which iseasily accessible by the ex,
(13:37):
probably more so in thetechnology belonging to
themselves.
So it's I guess it's looking ateverything in the household, is
that?
Danny Franks (13:46):
it's understanding the technology landscape of
pretty much everything in in inthe home and within the family
um, what connects to what?
What accounts are being shared?
So I I do know people do sharetheir Apple Cloud accounts
because they get a better dealon data.
It's that sort of thing.
(14:08):
What's going on on Netflix,what's going on on Prime, and so
on and so forth.
So all of these things have gotto be untangled so that the
person, when they split up, havegot complete control of their
own digital lives and notdepending on anybody else for it
.
Tamsin Caine (14:25):
Yeah, absolutely.
One of my clients who I wasspeaking to this morning, her
ex-husband has control over whenher electric car charges.
Danny Franks (14:38):
Okay.
Tamsin Caine (14:39):
And you know there's even things like that.
So much is controlled from ourmobile phone.
You just have no.
You know, if you're separatedfrom a coercive and controlling
person and that's the behaviorthat you've had in the
relationship post-separationthey can use these apps, can't
they, to create havoc and andstill have a control over, over
(15:04):
the lives of the if the personthey're separated from so it's
interesting what you say aboutthat, because it's, I suppose
it's.
Danny Franks (15:11):
One thing I haven't come across is the is
the when can you charge your carapp.
But again, each, each time Ispeak to people, other things
get added into the mix.
So this portfolio of productsand services that are being
shared by each other that you'vegot to split up is another item
(15:32):
on the checklist to go.
And what about this?
What about, as well as theheating, the CCTV, the alarm
systems, the so-and-so for thecar?
Car charging is another thing.
But also, I suppose, is youknow the access to the records
for that vehicle Once theseparation has gone through, and
(15:53):
say I want that all theelectronic information on that
to come to me and it is in aseparate account that you, you
know your partner's not got anyaccess to.
So it's you know, this digitalfootprint that we've got has got
to be separated and there willbe things that you know.
We I don't say we can't alwaysknow everything about everyone
(16:18):
all the time with regard to thedata and their apps that they're
using.
It does become fairly apparentafter some time.
You think, ah yes, what about,for example, the car charger?
Or what about the heating,because the heating is coming on
at strange times, or it's notcoming on or it goes on, it goes
off.
(16:38):
So it is getting control ofthat and how to separate the
accounts out, or justunderstanding that that sort of
thing is happening and untilyou're no longer living in the
same home, what you can andcan't do, I suppose it's
understanding the limitations ofthe software that you've got as
(16:59):
well.
Tamsin Caine (17:00):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think this is a reallyinteresting subject and it's not
something that I thought ofbefore.
But actually, even even outsidean abusive relationship, even
in any normal relationship,these still, these things still
still need to be dealt with,don't they?
(17:21):
These things don't separate it,and you know, we talk about
finances, we talk about thewho's having the Westlife CD and
who's having the whatever books, but this is something that is
it's something that I've notthought about, but this is
something that is it's somethingthat I've not thought about.
Maybe other people have, butit's something that I've not
(17:43):
thought about in terms of myclients and the work that they
need to do.
Now, I know you said you workwith people and it needs to be
in person.
So what sort of radius do youcover?
What's the areas that you workin?
Danny Franks (17:56):
Okay, so I was going to say, relatively
speaking, it is North Cheshireleading into Manchester.
So you know all the way up toHale, Altrincham and Brown, to
Sale, coming around NorthernMoor and Stockport and then the
rest of it coming round intoWilmslow, Alderley Edge,
(18:18):
Macclesfield, that sort of area.
So again, what I'm trying to beis quite focused.
So I'm not dealing with aclient staying Carlisle, because
sometimes it can be verydifficult to give that response.
Yes, I can do remote work and weall do so much remote work.
But I think when it's quitesensitive it's a lot easier to
(18:40):
work with somebody on aone-to-one on their equipment
that we've got and especiallytrying to work across the number
of devices that people have.
It's not necessarily just adesktop.
So it's important for me to beavailable to those clients to
say I've got an issue with thisor do you know that new password
(19:00):
was set up?
It's just not saving on mymachine and I really need that
every day and I can sit withthem and I can go through them
with authentication on theirmobile phones and so on and so
forth.
So it's not a one solution fitsall.
I think it's very bespoke foreach person that I'm seeing.
Tamsin Caine (19:23):
Yeah, yeah, important, very important work.
So a lot of our listeners willbe outside of your geographical
circle.
How would they go about findingthe right person?
Like I wouldn't have a cluewhere to start googling somebody
to do the sort of work that you, that you do?
(19:44):
Where where do they start?
What are they looking for?
Danny Franks (19:48):
so so, um, I I would think that, um, I mean, I
was found through recommendationand I think that is one way to
do it and I think it's probablythe best way, because the
recommendation from a personalfriend to me was saying, yeah,
(20:10):
this is personal interest, Dannywill look after you.
I don't want to say, go andhave a look at this particular
trustor trader, find an IT man,because you don't know who they
are or who they know, whereas ifyou know somebody within your
(20:30):
social circle or ask around withyour friends and you keep that
quite tight because, again,confidentiality is quite
important you know, or you knowif, if the solicitor knows
somebody as well that can advisein the same way as they may be
(20:52):
able to advise somebody to dothe finances, to do year end and
so on and so forth.
So it's finding a trusted ITperson that you know outside of,
outside of that area.
You know that I work
Tamsin Caine (21:05):
so you're looking for somebody who provides IT
support?
Essentially is yeah, but butobviously being careful, because
what you don't want to do isalert the perpetrator to what's
happening.
So obviously being carefulabout who you ask, I guess.
Danny Franks (21:22):
Correct.
And I think if I said to youI'm quite curious and
inquisitive when I speak tosomebody and I'm quite probing,
you might get some IT guys whogo, yeah, see, the problem, fix
it, come away and go, I've notthought about your heating or
your car or your CCTV, they justgo all right, I've taken the
(21:45):
folders off your email, thereyou go, off, you go, you'll be
safe now.
But they've not looked at thewider picture.
So that IT person has got tofit the role of what they're
trying to do, rather than justhave a small remit and be, yeah,
I'll sort your IT out.
I can't help you with your carbecause I'm driving an electric
(22:08):
car.
I can't help you with X, y, zbecause I'm not in that remit.
I think it needs somebody who isinquisitive, who can go out and
say, listen, I don't know yourparticular CCTV system, but I
can go and find out.
I can come back, I can find outwhether you can get dual access
, whether that access can beseparated and then revert back.
(22:30):
And even though CCTV isn't partof the IT remit, they can help
them with it.
It's it's it's being able totake them, you know, in the
whole journey for, for for thattechnology separation, I suppose
yeah, we almost need to cloneDanny's across the UK or um.
Failing that, I build some kindof network, don't we have people
(22:53):
who can, who can do this kindof work and understand the
breadth of it?
Because, you know, it startedoff we were talking about email
forwarding and actually it's somuch wider than that, isn't it?
it has grown, you know, and and it is a lot wider
um and you know, and I supposethe other, the other bit of
(23:14):
information is you know, thedigital stuff, the photographs.
It's getting a hold of them, youknow, and being able to manage
those and you know it might befairly straightforward copying
everything, but you want to makesure that you know you've got
all your information so you'renot having to go back and keep
(23:34):
on going back and not having togo back and keep on going back
and somebody's you know your exis saying you know I'm not
giving you that because you knowI want something in return.
It's all part of that and Isuppose the solicitors also have
to be aware.
You know you've got to be awareof what.
You know, what the technologyhas going to say hold the
(24:01):
partner has on your client, youknow, because they might not be
technology savvy, you might justhave a mobile phone in their
own laptop or a shared laptopthat the partner has access to.
So it might be, you know,saying, right, you really need
to be independenttechnology-wise, and that might
(24:25):
say you either get anotherlaptop or you don't use a laptop
at all.
You use everything on yourmobile phone and just control.
You know they have their ownaccount with their own phone and
they do everything on the phone, at the very least.
Tamsin Caine (24:39):
Yeah, absolutely.
It's such a minefield this area, isn't it?
There's so many things that youjust don't think about.
You think, well, that's odd,how have they known about that?
Or how did they know?
That's where I was, and thenit's only when you start digging
(25:01):
into these things that itbecomes clearer.
There is a piece of technologycalled Our Family Wizard and we
spoke to James from Our FamilyWizard a couple of series ago
and that does have.
It's a very secure way ofcommunicating with, with exes.
So secure messaging service.
(25:23):
That's date stamps, that datestamps aren't aren't amendable,
that messages aren't amendable.
That, um, that it can.
It can pick up a lot of thingsit could.
You can have shared calendarsin there rather than sharing
calendars externally.
So I think something like thatis also a good thing to be to be
thinking of using.
I know a client had a problemwith it in terms of the ex was
(25:46):
sending huge messages through itand she was having to read
these enormous messages but withjust sort of one line of text
that was important in the hugemessage, which again can can add
to abuse.
But at least those things can'tbe changed.
They can be printed out andsubmitted to court.
You know they can be used andyou're not.
(26:06):
You know you're not riskingthings being forwarded on from
external sources as well, usingsomething like that.
Danny Franks (26:13):
Yeah.
Yeah, I'm not familiar withthat software, but we'll go out
and have a look,
yeah it's worth having a lookat.
Yeah, there's a number of ourclients use it and a lot of
solicitors are using it now andand some of the courts have
actually um required that thethe two people and particularly
where there's there's parentsand the children issues use that
(26:35):
programme.
You know it is really good.
We're coming to the end of ourtime together.
Danny, it's been fabulous totalk to you.
Is there anything that you'dlike to add that we've not
discussed or that you thinkyou'd like our listeners to have
as a final word?
(26:55):
I suppose, if they've got any suspicion at all
, first of all speak to thesolicitor, but second of all,
seek out a trusted advisor, atrusted technology advisor that
is independent, completelyindependent, that they can trust
and help them.
That's the only words I cangive.
Tamsin Caine (27:17):
An advice is to say you know, just check it out,
or take some time to go andinvestigate yourself, uh, and
understand your own technologyyeah, absol utely, and if you
are in the north Chester, southManchester area, um, one of
these details will be in theshow notes, so you can.
You can get hold of Danny andget him to help you out, and
(27:41):
yeah, but otherwise, yeah,please make sure that you are
using somebody trusted, who, whois going to have a really good
look at what's going on withyour technology and make sure
that they can make you safe andsecure.
Danny, thank you for joining me.
It's been fantastic andenlightening to speak to you
today.
Danny Franks (28:00):
Thank you, Tamsin.
Tamsin Caine (28:06):
Hi, and I hope you enjoyed that episode of the
Smart Divorce Podcast.
If you would like to get intouch, please have a look in the
show notes for our details orgo onto the website,
wwwsmartdivorcecouk.
Also, if you are listening onapple podcasts or on spotify and
you wouldn't mind leaving us alovely five-star review, that
(28:28):
would be fantastic.
I know that lots of ourlisteners are finding this is
incredibly helpful in theirjourney through separation,
divorce and dissolving a civilpartnership.
Also, if you would like somefurther support, we do have a
facebook group now.
It's called separation, divorceand dissolution uk.
(28:51):
Please do go on to facebook,search up the group and we'd be
delighted to have you join us.
The one thing I would say is doplease answer their membership
questions.
Okay, have a great day and takecare.
Welcome to series 10 of the Smart Divorce Podcast.
During this series, we're goingto be speaking about the
difficult subject of domesticabuse.
Unfortunately, during my work,I come across people who are
victim survivors of domesticabuse on a far too regular basis
.
So we're going to be talking tothose who have survived
(00:30):
themselves, to professionalsworking in this area, to
solicitors, to hopefully helpyou to find the right support if
you're in that situation.
This is an issue that's notgoing away.
So if you're going through thisor you know anybody who is, I
really hope this series helpsyou.
Thanks for listening.
(00:55):
Hello and welcome to today'sSmart Divorce Podcast, and I'm
really chuffed to be joinedtoday by a very old friend, my
friend Danny Franks, who we metdoing networking a very, very
long time ago and recentlyrealised that some of the work
that Danny does could bemassively helpful to you out
(01:19):
there.
So I'm going to ask Danny tointroduce you and I'm thinking
he's going to use a slightlydifferent introduction to the
one he used when he introducedhimself to me all those years
ago.
So welcome, Danny.
Thanks for joining me.
Danny Franks (01:33):
Hi, tamsin, good to see you again.
Tamsin Caine (01:36):
And you, can you tell us a little bit about you
and your business and the sortof work that you do?
Danny Franks (01:44):
So the work that I do is general technical IT,
helping people secure theirnetworks and their technology,
and I suppose in the last six,12 months I've been focusing on
individuals helping individualswith their technology, home IT,
(02:06):
home businesses.
And then recently I've beenasked by some individuals to
help them understand their owntechnology because some strange
things have been happening withtheir technology or their
information.
Tamsin Caine (02:21):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and it's at this
point that we, that we felt,felt that we might have some um,
some things in common and somethings you could, you could help
our listeners with.
So during this series we'vetalked a lot about domestic
abuse, and we know that one ofthe ways in which victim
survivors are targeted is by theperpetrator having sight of
(02:46):
their IT, having trackingdevices, and I know that's
something that you've workedwith a number of people on
recently.
So could you tell us a littlebit about how those people have
come to you and about what youcan do if an individual suspects
there is tracking on theirdevices?
Danny Franks (03:06):
Okay so, I was referred some months ago by a
friend of mine who I was lookingafter their technology, saying
can you help out a friend ofmine?
She's not really good on thetechnology, she just wants some
help like logging into accounts,saving new passwords and just
transferring over certaininformation so she could become
(03:29):
more independent with hertechnology from her partner.
Now, at that time I didn't knowshe was going through a divorce
, but it became quite apparentwhen I was working with her on
the first visit that there wereforwarders on a mail, there was
shared accounts whereby shedidn't know the passwords to
(03:54):
those shared accounts, and someof her own accounts she didn't
know the passwords to, which shethought strange, but she didn't
think anything of it becauseshe thought she'd just forgotten
about it.
And so as time went on, werealized that some of the emails
were being forwarded.
Well, not some of the emails, alot of it.
(04:18):
All her emails were beingforwarded to her partner and
anything incoming or outgoingwas being surveilled by her
partner.
At which point there was a bitof a red flag and I said we need
to stop this.
Did you know about this?
And she came back and said "Iwondered why he was always one
step ahead of me when it came tonegotiations, speaking to my
lawyer, so I can't say I fellinto this sort of work, but it's
(04:45):
the first time I've come acrosswork or a client whereby
they've not been hacked.
It's almost a soft hack.
So when somebody's systems goesdown and they don't know who it
is and they've got ransomware,then that's very different than
(05:07):
this, because they're beingtargeted from the inside and
they don't know about it.
So I was able to identify theissues and rectify them.
Tamsin Caine (05:18):
Yeah, absolutely.
In those sorts of situations isit a question of having to set
up brand new accounts and havingto almost start from scratch?
Are there things that can bedone with existing accounts?
Danny Franks (05:31):
Interestingly, the second client that I came
across with this sort of thing.
We set up a completely newaccount for her to liaise with
her solicitor on, because wethought it might have been how
can I say in her interest forher other half to understand,
how can I say to lead them down,not lead them down the garden
path, but let them have otherinformation so that you know she
(05:55):
was aware of it.
She said I don't want toactually block this off, but I
want a new account, I want tomake sure it's secure, I want to
change all my personal accessto my new email account, and it
was just going through them andjust ensuring that all of that
was happening.
So it wasn't as straightforwardas I thought.
As you've just suggested, yeah,dead easy, just get the account
(06:18):
back, rename it.
This was more of my secondclient, whereby they just wanted
to almost manage the situationin a different way let's put it
like that whereby they then hada new email address which they
were then liaising with theirsolicitor
(06:39):
and have you come acrossanybody who's got trackers put
on their so kind of other?
I guess you know we all thinkWhatsApp, I guess, is the big
example, because we all thinkthat's pretty safe and secure,
because we all think it's.
(07:00):
It's encrypted.
It's point-to-point encrypted.
Tamsin Caine (07:03):
Yeah, when it goes from one to another, but I know
there's been instances ofpeople having trackers on their
hardware that seem to be able totrack those sorts of things as
well, so are you able to helpwith that?
Danny Franks (07:19):
So with WhatsApp, again, it's fairly easy to reset
up if you get the user's phone.
Now, if there's any preemptivethought to what somebody else is
doing, they can quite easilyset up a WhatsApp account, or
should I say shared WhatsApp, ontheir PC or their laptop or
(07:43):
their desktop of their partner,without the partner really
knowing to see the messagescoming in and going out.
And that isn't a bit ofsoftware, that's just WhatsApp
itself.
There's some Find Me softwarewhich is part of Google, which
can be enabled, which is burieda couple of layers down within
(08:04):
the software, where it just isturned on.
So again, that can be easilydone if somebody has the right
knowledge to be able to turn iton on their partner's phone and
say I'm tracking you.
There's nothing that pops upeach day to say your phone is
being tracked or you are beingtracked.
So the user wouldn't reallyhave knowledge of that being
(08:26):
tracked.
So the user wouldn't reallyhave knowledge of that.
And if the partner has been theone that looks after the
technology, look after thephones, it's quite easy for them
to do that in a way that isn'tgoing to be suspicious.
You know, you know it can beall premeditated, it can all be
preplanned, and if they've got ahistory of, you know,
(08:52):
controlling their partner, thenthis might be something that's
been going on for a long time.
So you know it's been able toidentify that sort of um action
that's been taken on the phonesas well.
You know quite early on.
So you don't necessarily needto install any specific software
.
Tamsin Caine (09:11):
The software is already on the phone, uh for for
for somebody to get access toit yeah, it's about having those
, those um pieces of software ona different like replicated on
a different device and thatinformation just feeds straight
through to it correct and theend user doesn't necessarily
know.
Danny Franks (09:31):
So I suppose if you were to set up whatsapp on
your desktop, um, you would beable to see the whatsapp
messages both on phone and onyour desktop, but you don't get
notified on your phone to sayit's coming through to your
desktop as well.
Tamsin Caine (09:45):
Yeah, absolutely.
So what can you do about thatthen, because that's really
frightening that that can begoing on without your knowledge
at all.
Danny Franks (09:59):
So it's just being aware.
I mean you can check on yourWhatsApp what devices are
connected.
You can check your Googlelocations.
You know whether you're sharingyour locations.
You can check if there's anyforwarders on your emails going
to any other accounts and anydiverts on any emails going out.
(10:19):
So there's some things that youcan check quite easily.
And then you know you shouldalso be aware of software which
you know you're not familiarwith or apps on your phone that
you're not familiar with.
But as most of us have got over50 or 60 apps on our phones,
sometimes very difficult to siftthrough, you know which ones
(10:41):
you've put on recently and thosethat you've put on years ago,
those that have transferred froman old device to those that
somebody else might have put onto track you.
So it can be challenging, butit's a case of understanding
your own technology, being awareof.
You know the devices that youuse, having some control on that
(11:02):
and ensuring that you know whatyou're doing or get some help
to know what you're doing.
Tamsin Caine (11:09):
Yeah, absolutely.
And if you're it's the samewith the people that I work with
who aren't used to lookingafter their own money If you're
not particularly technologicallycan't speak um savvy, then you
do need somebody to to help youout, don't you?
And that's where you come in, Iguess.
(11:29):
So what would the process bethat you would go through if you
were approached by somebody whowho wanted to check out whether
they were being tracked,whether emails were being
forwarded, etc.
Danny Franks (11:41):
So what would the process be when I first met them
?
Or they'd give me a call, soinitially it'd be a call.
The way that it has happened isit's fairly straightforward I
call, I go and see the client.
I don't work remotely.
I pretty much have a look attheir laptops and their mobile
(12:08):
phones and any other devicesthat they've got, you know, see
if it's connected to homeheating or CCTV or music systems
, because they can play a partas well.
You know whereby the partnermight be setting alarms or
setting systems to come onduring the day and the partner
doesn't know how to work themusic system or turn the CCTV on
(12:32):
or off, and so on and so forth.
So it's basically doing a miniaudit, but a soft audit, just to
talk through, understand any ofthe concerns my clients have
got regarding the data,regarding how they use it, and
then just walking them througheach of the products that they
use.
If they're really not happywith how can I say how they're
(12:57):
feeling, we can reinstall themachine, put new passwords on it
, reinstall the software, givethem a new gmail account or
email account sorry, gmail queryoutlook and start afresh so
that they are completelyseparate from their partners.
Um, how can say technologyworld?
Tamsin Caine (13:16):
and they can start again and I guess I'm thinking
about kind of so I live with mytwo kids, I've got my personal
phone, I've got a work phone,I've got a laptop you know lots
of people have ipads and then,of course, there's the kids
technology in the house which iseasily accessible by the ex,
(13:37):
probably more so in thetechnology belonging to
themselves.
So it's I guess it's looking ateverything in the household, is
that?
Danny Franks (13:46):
it's understanding the technology landscape of
pretty much everything in in inthe home and within the family
um, what connects to what?
What accounts are being shared?
So I I do know people do sharetheir Apple Cloud accounts
because they get a better dealon data.
It's that sort of thing.
(14:08):
What's going on on Netflix,what's going on on Prime, and so
on and so forth.
So all of these things have gotto be untangled so that the
person, when they split up, havegot complete control of their
own digital lives and notdepending on anybody else for it
.
Tamsin Caine (14:25):
Yeah, absolutely.
One of my clients who I wasspeaking to this morning, her
ex-husband has control over whenher electric car charges.
Danny Franks (14:38):
Okay.
Tamsin Caine (14:39):
And you know there's even things like that.
So much is controlled from ourmobile phone.
You just have no.
You know, if you're separatedfrom a coercive and controlling
person and that's the behaviorthat you've had in the
relationship post-separationthey can use these apps, can't
they, to create havoc and andstill have a control over, over
(15:04):
the lives of the if the personthey're separated from so it's
interesting what you say aboutthat, because it's, I suppose
it's.
Danny Franks (15:11):
One thing I haven't come across is the is
the when can you charge your carapp.
But again, each, each time Ispeak to people, other things
get added into the mix.
So this portfolio of productsand services that are being
shared by each other that you'vegot to split up is another item
(15:32):
on the checklist to go.
And what about this?
What about, as well as theheating, the CCTV, the alarm
systems, the so-and-so for thecar?
Car charging is another thing.
But also, I suppose, is youknow the access to the records
for that vehicle Once theseparation has gone through, and
(15:53):
say I want that all theelectronic information on that
to come to me and it is in aseparate account that you, you
know your partner's not got anyaccess to.
So it's you know, this digitalfootprint that we've got has got
to be separated and there willbe things that you know.
We I don't say we can't alwaysknow everything about everyone
(16:18):
all the time with regard to thedata and their apps that they're
using.
It does become fairly apparentafter some time.
You think, ah yes, what about,for example, the car charger?
Or what about the heating,because the heating is coming on
at strange times, or it's notcoming on or it goes on, it goes
off.
(16:38):
So it is getting control ofthat and how to separate the
accounts out, or justunderstanding that that sort of
thing is happening and untilyou're no longer living in the
same home, what you can andcan't do, I suppose it's
understanding the limitations ofthe software that you've got as
(16:59):
well.
Tamsin Caine (17:00):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think this is a reallyinteresting subject and it's not
something that I thought ofbefore.
But actually, even even outsidean abusive relationship, even
in any normal relationship,these still, these things still
still need to be dealt with,don't they?
(17:21):
These things don't separate it,and you know, we talk about
finances, we talk about thewho's having the Westlife CD and
who's having the whatever books, but this is something that is
it's something that I've notthought about, but this is
something that is it's somethingthat I've not thought about.
Maybe other people have, butit's something that I've not
(17:43):
thought about in terms of myclients and the work that they
need to do.
Now, I know you said you workwith people and it needs to be
in person.
So what sort of radius do youcover?
What's the areas that you workin?
Danny Franks (17:56):
Okay, so I was going to say, relatively
speaking, it is North Cheshireleading into Manchester.
So you know all the way up toHale, Altrincham and Brown, to
Sale, coming around NorthernMoor and Stockport and then the
rest of it coming round intoWilmslow, Alderley Edge,
(18:18):
Macclesfield, that sort of area.
So again, what I'm trying to beis quite focused.
So I'm not dealing with aclient staying Carlisle, because
sometimes it can be verydifficult to give that response.
Yes, I can do remote work and weall do so much remote work.
But I think when it's quitesensitive it's a lot easier to
(18:40):
work with somebody on aone-to-one on their equipment
that we've got and especiallytrying to work across the number
of devices that people have.
It's not necessarily just adesktop.
So it's important for me to beavailable to those clients to
say I've got an issue with thisor do you know that new password
(19:00):
was set up?
It's just not saving on mymachine and I really need that
every day and I can sit withthem and I can go through them
with authentication on theirmobile phones and so on and so
forth.
So it's not a one solution fitsall.
I think it's very bespoke foreach person that I'm seeing.
Tamsin Caine (19:23):
Yeah, yeah, important, very important work.
So a lot of our listeners willbe outside of your geographical
circle.
How would they go about findingthe right person?
Like I wouldn't have a cluewhere to start googling somebody
to do the sort of work that you, that you do?
(19:44):
Where where do they start?
What are they looking for?
Danny Franks (19:48):
so so, um, I I would think that, um, I mean, I
was found through recommendationand I think that is one way to
do it and I think it's probablythe best way, because the
recommendation from a personalfriend to me was saying, yeah,
(20:10):
this is personal interest, Dannywill look after you.
I don't want to say, go andhave a look at this particular
trustor trader, find an IT man,because you don't know who they
are or who they know, whereas ifyou know somebody within your
(20:30):
social circle or ask around withyour friends and you keep that
quite tight because, again,confidentiality is quite
important you know, or you knowif, if the solicitor knows
somebody as well that can advisein the same way as they may be
(20:52):
able to advise somebody to dothe finances, to do year end and
so on and so forth.
So it's finding a trusted ITperson that you know outside of,
outside of that area.
You know that I work
Tamsin Caine (21:05):
so you're looking for somebody who provides IT
support?
Essentially is yeah, but butobviously being careful, because
what you don't want to do isalert the perpetrator to what's
happening.
So obviously being carefulabout who you ask, I guess.
Danny Franks (21:22):
Correct.
And I think if I said to youI'm quite curious and
inquisitive when I speak tosomebody and I'm quite probing,
you might get some IT guys whogo, yeah, see, the problem, fix
it, come away and go, I've notthought about your heating or
your car or your CCTV, they justgo all right, I've taken the
(21:45):
folders off your email, thereyou go, off, you go, you'll be
safe now.
But they've not looked at thewider picture.
So that IT person has got tofit the role of what they're
trying to do, rather than justhave a small remit and be, yeah,
I'll sort your IT out.
I can't help you with your carbecause I'm driving an electric
(22:08):
car.
I can't help you with X, y, zbecause I'm not in that remit.
I think it needs somebody who isinquisitive, who can go out and
say, listen, I don't know yourparticular CCTV system, but I
can go and find out.
I can come back, I can find outwhether you can get dual access
, whether that access can beseparated and then revert back.
(22:30):
And even though CCTV isn't partof the IT remit, they can help
them with it.
It's it's it's being able totake them, you know, in the
whole journey for, for for thattechnology separation, I suppose
yeah, we almost need to cloneDanny's across the UK or um.
Failing that, I build some kindof network, don't we have people
(22:53):
who can, who can do this kindof work and understand the
breadth of it?
Because, you know, it startedoff we were talking about email
forwarding and actually it's somuch wider than that, isn't it?
it has grown, you know, and and it is a lot wider
um and you know, and I supposethe other, the other bit of
(23:14):
information is you know, thedigital stuff, the photographs.
It's getting a hold of them, youknow, and being able to manage
those and you know it might befairly straightforward copying
everything, but you want to makesure that you know you've got
all your information so you'renot having to go back and keep
(23:34):
on going back and not having togo back and keep on going back
and somebody's you know your exis saying you know I'm not
giving you that because you knowI want something in return.
It's all part of that and Isuppose the solicitors also have
to be aware.
You know you've got to be awareof what.
You know, what the technologyhas going to say hold the
(24:01):
partner has on your client, youknow, because they might not be
technology savvy, you might justhave a mobile phone in their
own laptop or a shared laptopthat the partner has access to.
So it might be, you know,saying, right, you really need
to be independenttechnology-wise, and that might
(24:25):
say you either get anotherlaptop or you don't use a laptop
at all.
You use everything on yourmobile phone and just control.
You know they have their ownaccount with their own phone and
they do everything on the phone, at the very least.
Tamsin Caine (24:39):
Yeah, absolutely.
It's such a minefield this area, isn't it?
There's so many things that youjust don't think about.
You think, well, that's odd,how have they known about that?
Or how did they know?
That's where I was, and thenit's only when you start digging
(25:01):
into these things that itbecomes clearer.
There is a piece of technologycalled Our Family Wizard and we
spoke to James from Our FamilyWizard a couple of series ago
and that does have.
It's a very secure way ofcommunicating with, with exes.
So secure messaging service.
(25:23):
That's date stamps, that datestamps aren't aren't amendable,
that messages aren't amendable.
That, um, that it can.
It can pick up a lot of thingsit could.
You can have shared calendarsin there rather than sharing
calendars externally.
So I think something like thatis also a good thing to be to be
thinking of using.
I know a client had a problemwith it in terms of the ex was
(25:46):
sending huge messages through itand she was having to read
these enormous messages but withjust sort of one line of text
that was important in the hugemessage, which again can can add
to abuse.
But at least those things can'tbe changed.
They can be printed out andsubmitted to court.
You know they can be used andyou're not.
(26:06):
You know you're not riskingthings being forwarded on from
external sources as well, usingsomething like that.
Danny Franks (26:13):
Yeah.
Yeah, I'm not familiar withthat software, but we'll go out
and have a look,
yeah it's worth having a lookat.
Yeah, there's a number of ourclients use it and a lot of
solicitors are using it now andand some of the courts have
actually um required that thethe two people and particularly
where there's there's parentsand the children issues use that
(26:35):
programme.
You know it is really good.
We're coming to the end of ourtime together.
Danny, it's been fabulous totalk to you.
Is there anything that you'dlike to add that we've not
discussed or that you thinkyou'd like our listeners to have
as a final word?
(26:55):
I suppose, if they've got any suspicion at all
, first of all speak to thesolicitor, but second of all,
seek out a trusted advisor, atrusted technology advisor that
is independent, completelyindependent, that they can trust
and help them.
That's the only words I cangive.
Tamsin Caine (27:17):
An advice is to say you know, just check it out,
or take some time to go andinvestigate yourself, uh, and
understand your own technologyyeah, absol utely, and if you
are in the north Chester, southManchester area, um, one of
these details will be in theshow notes, so you can.
You can get hold of Danny andget him to help you out, and
(27:41):
yeah, but otherwise, yeah,please make sure that you are
using somebody trusted, who, whois going to have a really good
look at what's going on withyour technology and make sure
that they can make you safe andsecure.
Danny, thank you for joining me.
It's been fantastic andenlightening to speak to you
today.
Danny Franks (28:00):
Thank you, Tamsin.
Tamsin Caine (28:06):
Hi, and I hope you enjoyed that episode of the
Smart Divorce Podcast.
If you would like to get intouch, please have a look in the
show notes for our details orgo onto the website,
wwwsmartdivorcecouk.
Also, if you are listening onapple podcasts or on spotify and
you wouldn't mind leaving us alovely five-star review, that
(28:28):
would be fantastic.
I know that lots of ourlisteners are finding this is
incredibly helpful in theirjourney through separation,
divorce and dissolving a civilpartnership.
Also, if you would like somefurther support, we do have a
facebook group now.
It's called separation, divorceand dissolution uk.
(28:51):
Please do go on to facebook,search up the group and we'd be
delighted to have you join us.
The one thing I would say is doplease answer their membership
questions.
Okay, have a great day and takecare.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!