June 20, 2025 • 39 mins
How do you work together with someone you may no longer like, trust, or even want to speak to? This question sits at the heart of co-parenting after separation, and our guest Marcy Shaoul brings both personal experience and professional expertise to this challenging terrain.
Marcie Shaoul
Marcie is a trailblazer in co-parenting. She’s the founder of the award-winning The Co-Parent Way and author of The Co-Parenting Method: Six Steps to Raise Happy Kids After Separation and Divorce (Penguin, 2025). In 2016, she launched the UK’s first dedicated co-parent coaching practice, bringing this vital support to separating families across the country.
A certified coach known for her clear, compassionate, and results-driven style, Marcie has helped thousands of separating parents learn how to co-parent with confidence. She developed The Co-Parenting Method, a step-by-step approach that transforms post-separation communication—and she now offers it both in-person and as an accessible online course.
Before launching her coaching career, Marcie led high-level communications teams in the international civil service, advising senior officials and diplomats at Foreign Minister level. She has worked with Buckingham Palace on a high-profile communications initiative for Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, and alongside global changemakers such as Desmond Tutu, Sonia Gandhi, and Terry Waite.
Where it’s safe to do so, every child of separation has a right to parents who can still be parents - together.
Tamsin Caine
Tamsin is a Chartered Financial Planner with over 20 years experience. She works with couples and individuals who are at the end of a relationship and want agree how to divide their assets FAIRLY without a fight.
You can contact Tamsin at tamsin@smartdivorce.co.uk or arrange a free initial meeting using https://bit.ly/SmDiv15min. She is also part of the team running Facebook group Separation, Divorce and Dissolution UK
Tamsin Caine MSc., FPFS
Chartered Financial Planner
Smart Divorce Ltd
P.S. I am the co-author of “My Divorce Handbook – It’s What You Do Next That Counts”, written by divorce specialists and lawyers writing about their area of expertise to help walk you through the divorce process. You can buy it here https://yourdivorcehandbook.co.uk/buy-the-book/
To learn more about our podcast sponsor Ampla Finance – access their product guide here: https://bit.ly/3Ieqmuc
Or complete enquiry form https://bit.ly/3W4J7pz and one of the team will be in touch.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tamsin Caine (00:06):
Hello and welcome to the Smart Divorce podcast.
I'm very honored to be joinedtoday by the very fabulous Ma
Shaoul, who, I cannot believe,has just informed me that we've
never had her on the podcastbefore, so I don't know what
I've been playing at.
But huge apologies for that,because she is amazing.
(00:26):
I've been a huge fan for a longtime.
has just released her I thinkfirst book, which is incredible
and I have at home and I'm aboutthree quarters of the way
through.
It's absolutely brilliant.
And if you haven't got it, goget it.
She also runs a co-parentingprogram, so today's conversation
(00:49):
is going to be everything to dowith, um, co-parenting or or
not co-parenting, if you'refinding that you have a, a
parent on the parent who'sparenting with you but isn't
particularly into co-parenting,or not being very compliant or
(01:09):
helpful or willing, we'll talkall about that as well.
So, , welcome to the podcast.
Thank you for joining me.
Marcie Shaoul (01:16):
Thank you so much for having me.
I can't believe we haven't doneone together, but I'm really
happy to be here and that was areally lovely introduction and
I'm blushing
She's really not.
If you have a look on YouTube,you'll see she's not, she
Feels like I amAnd I'm really glad you're
enjoying the co-parenting methodbook.
I'm really, really pleased it'syeah, that has been a.
(01:38):
It's been a hell of a year.
Tamsin Caine (01:40):
It has been a hell of a year and it was a hell of
a launch and there was so muchon LinkedIn about what an
incredible book it is.
If you are interested in buyingit, we will put a link in the
show notes so that you can geton Amazon and get that ordered,
(02:02):
because it's very worthwhile.
Before we crack on and I feellike I've talked a lot already,
but could you just introduceyourself, give us a bit of
background about what led you tothe work that you do now in
terms of the co-parenting methodand your business co-parenting
(02:22):
way.
Marcie Shaoul (02:23):
Yeah, of course.
So I used to work in thediplomatic service and I used to
run communications departmentsand I used to work in the space
between governments and NGOs,helping them to listen well to
each other and talk well to eachother and about, you know,
global issues.
(02:44):
Sounds very grand, but it wasquite.
It was quite, quite detailed,but it was.
It was really interestingbecause in that space I started
to realise it's not often whatwe say, it's how we say it, it's
the language we use and it'show we listen without
assumptions.
And I did that for a number ofyears.
And then, in 2009, I gotdivorced and somebody passed me
(03:09):
the number of a coach, In fact,my best friend, Sarah.
She was like take this number,call this woman.
I'm like what's a coach?
You know, 2009, there weren'tcoaches really and I called up
this woman called SandraRichardson, who was spectacular,
and I had some just coachingwith her not divorce coaching or
more life coaching, I supposeand in that moment I really
(03:30):
learned to take some kind ofactive decisions, become a bit
more courageous, and all thetools I learned with what
learned from coaching stayedwith me.
And so when I left that work in2013, 14, 15, I can't even
remember now, A bit ago, yeah, awhile ago, I retrained to
(03:51):
become a coach because I thoughtit was so powerful.
And then, you know, because ofmy own divorce, I was
co-parenting and my son was onewhen we got divorced.
He's 17 now.
You know, I kind of put all ofthose things together the
coaching tools, thecommunication skills, my own
(04:11):
experience and I started tothink, you know, gosh, I could
have really done with somethingin the early days.
You know, it was reallydifficult.
The separation was veryemotionally charged it was.
You know, we had a one-year-oldand we didn't.
There was no blueprint, wedidn't know what to do and I
thought, hang on a minute.
You know, I know what to do nowand I know what works and I've
(04:32):
got this experience and I've gotthis skill set that maybe I can
build something that will helpother people.
And that's when it was born.
So in 2016, I kind of broughtthis idea of co-parent coaching
into the UK and it was.
You know it was.
It's always hard to bringsomething new in, but you know,
(04:58):
the landscape was changing infamily law and you know people
were becoming more and morereceptive and I've really seen
that over the last decade.
Law firms want to want to workin in in ways that cause less
conflict, and lawyers want to bemore collaborative and more
child focused, but there stillwasn't a methodology out there.
So my one-to-one work that Iwas doing with clients, you know
, kind of morphed and andchanged and grew and we launched
(05:22):
an online program in 2022.
And that has now changed andmorphed and grown and we you
know I published the book inearlier this year, but I've been
working on refining the methodfor obviously a while before
that, and then our onlineprogram now reflects the book.
So it's a six step process, butI'm sure we'll talk about that
(05:42):
in a minute.
So that's my very convolutedjourney to get to where I am
today.
Tamsin Caine (05:47):
You know it's funny, I often think that
mothers in particular would makefabulous peace diplomats to go
and conquer world peace, becauseI do think that the skills we
have to learn in negotiation andcommunication certainly set us
(06:08):
up well for that so it's I lovethat you almost did it the other
way around
yeah, yeah, you're right, Ithink we we could do with a few
more of us in that space, forsure
yeah definitely for for sure.
Um, so okay, let's, let's getinto the, the nub of
co-parenting, because you know,nobody gets married expecting to
(06:33):
get divorced, nobody has achild expecting not to live in
the same house and parentstogether, and and I don't know
what your view of ofco-parenting is, but for me it's
about parenting in two separatehouses but both, both kind of
working together to parent thechildren as if you were in the
(06:54):
same house but but doing it fromtwo houses and sort of
retaining that, that family, andit.
It sounds dead straightforward,um, and we were likening it
before we pressed record to thewhole breastfeeding thing.
You know, it should be reallynatural, it should be very
straightforward, and it's reallynot, and people need a lot of
(07:15):
guidance.
So I don't want to completelyspoil it and trash anyone
needing the book on your courseand trash your anyone needing
the book on your course, butjust give us a brief outline as
to kind of what co-parenting isand how people might start on
that route okay.
Marcie Shaoul (07:35):
Well, the first thing I'm going to do is
completely agree with you andsay it's not easy to co-parent.
In fact, it might be thehardest thing you ever do.
To work together with somebodythat you don't like anymore, you
don't trust anymore, who makesyou angry, upset, all those
things that can come withseparation.
And yet it is probably the mostimportant thing you can do
(08:00):
after separation for yourchildren, right?
So you've got these kind ofpolar opposite things straight
away.
So it's very difficult to I.
You know it's not justsomething that happens naturally
for the majority of us.
It's something that takes aconscious decision, takes work.
We have to, you know, manageourselves.
We have to manage what we say,we have to kind of not lose our
(08:24):
rag at our ex.
You know all of these thingsand and you know, in in a time
when you really might be findinglife tough, ok, so that's the
first thing I want to say.
I don't for a minute go yeah,yeah, everybody should co-parent
.
It's not easy.
I've done it for 17 years.
(08:45):
We are good now.
We are all good at co-parenting, but it's not been an easy
journey always, so that I wantedto start by saying that.
But co-parenting is exactly asyou say, tamsin.
It's this idea of workingtogether, continuing to parent
together collaboratively afteryou've separated, regardless of
(09:07):
what you feel about each other,right?
And it's this idea thatobviously it's over in two homes
and it requires communication,it requires decision making, it
requires respect and that is thedefinition, really, of
co-parenting putting your kidsfront and center and continuing
to parent them together despitenot being in a relationship
(09:28):
anymore.
However, it's not always safefor some people to co-parent and
for some people don't.
You can't co-parent, right,that I really want to say that
as well.
Um, nice and early, becauseit's not for everybody.
Um, and there are other thingsthat that you can do.
You can do shared parenting,which is where you split your
(09:49):
kids time down the middle andyou know you don't need to.
You can choose to communicateor not.
Or there's parallel parenting,where there's very, very little
communication and you just doyour own thing in each house.
That's obviously a very quicksummary.
We go into it in more detail inthe book.
You know that's, that's whatthat is.
But if we're here to talk aboutco-parenting, then it's it's
(10:10):
about, and it's important,because if you can co-parent and
if it is safe for you toco-parent, what you're doing for
your kids and for anybodywatching the video.
I'll do my little demo.
You're creating a nice loop.
You're creating a nice loop ifyou imagine, if you're just
listening a loop of elasticaround your children, with both
of you as the parents at eitherend, holding that elastic nice
(10:32):
and tight around the children,and the children exist in the
middle of this co-parental loop,nice and safely.
You know their parents arestill upholding their end and
everything feels nice and safeand stable despite the
separation.
Right, kids can recover from atrauma.
Yes, it is a trauma when theirparents separate, but it's
definitely something that theycan move through and manage and
(10:54):
learn to live with successfully.
It's the sustained conflictthat is really destructive.
So the method is about tryingto well, the method is about
reducing that conflict and whenparents apply the tools in the
method and we'll talk about itin a bit that reduces the
conflict and that's where weneed to get to for the kids.
(11:16):
If we're continuously inconflict around our children,
it's really, really damaging tothem.
So the decision that we need tomake when we separate is okay.
Do you know what?
I don't like you my ex.
I don't like you.
I don't trust you.
I don't want to be with you,but I have.
We have these children togetherand that's our most fundamental
priority.
(11:37):
So we need to somehow find away through this to be able to
continue to, to bring them upsafely.
So that's, that's why it's whatit is and that's why it's
important
Tamsin Caine (11:48):
Perfect, perfect summary.
And I guess that the hardestpoint for me about co-parenting
feels like the bit during theactual divorce process.
Whilst there's all the I'mgoing to call them negotiations
(12:10):
but they're not even alwaysnegotiations but whilst you're
trying to find your way throughthe mess that is divorce,
working out where you're goingto both going to live, working
out how the kids are going tosee you both, working out the
money stuff, there's a lot ofemotion flying about during that
(12:31):
period.
Should people even be lookingto start co-parenting from day
one, or is it something thatcomes in later?
Marcie Shaoul (12:44):
Great question.
I would say it depends on thecircumstances that you're in, on
how you found yourself in thissituation, but I would say that
your children don't stop beingyour children whilst you sort
your stuff out.
You know you've got to keep.
You've got to keep that in mind.
Um, and what I know from mymany years of working in this
(13:06):
space is um, if there is um, ifyou have separated in you know
difficult circumstances, youknow it will often start off as
very acrimonious, veryargumentative, a lot of
confrontation, and then it canease off okay as we get we as
time passes.
Um, so if you are listening tothis and you are like I could
never, I could never do that,we're just not in the space.
(13:29):
I would just invite listenersto think into more of a long
term frame of mind, because yourkids are going to need you to
work together to parent them andeven though you might feel like
you can't do that at the moment, you stay in that short-term
mindset of, oh, I hate him or Ihate her, then it's going to be
really difficult for you to takea step to consciously choose to
(13:51):
co-parent later on.
So even if you're like, Ireally don't like you, but I'm
gonna still do a bit ofparenting with you, even if it's
like a step in that direction.
I would say that ideally, youknow that's what you should be
aiming for.
You know it's not perfect.
It will never be perfect.
Parenting isn't perfect,whether you're together or not.
(14:11):
We just need to kind of do itas well as we can.
So earlier intervention is whatkind of the official term is,
isn't it?
It is better, if you like, hasa good long-term impact, but
it's never too late to start.
I've worked with people whohave not spoken for years when I
say years and you know, we getthem to a place where they can
(14:36):
talk to each other.
They still don't like eachother, but they don't need to
like each other.
They don't need to go onholiday to Greece together, they
just need some decisionstogether and for their kids to
go oh, do you know what myparents are talking to each
other?
Tamsin Caine (14:48):
bonus yeah, absolutely.
I think, if I had my time again, I think during the divorce we
didn't co-parent at all andalthough I didn't put the kids
in the middle and both of us hadthe kids sort of front and
(15:09):
center, there was so muchemotion going around.
I just don't think I'm saying,if I had my time again I would
try and co-parent from day one.
But actually I'm not sure if itwould have been feasible.
And it's become easier overtime the further and further
we've got from it.
But I think, just to think ofsome of the benefits that I've
(15:32):
had from it are things like wecan both go and watch.
So our son plays rugby.
We'll both be at rugby matchesand he loves that.
Um, we'll both go.
My daughter used to dance.
We'd both go and watch herdance shows, both my, so my
(15:52):
son's 18th birthday we all wentout for dinner with my ex's new
girlfriend and her family, withmy stepson, who I guess isn't
officially my stepson anymorebut still is to me because I've
been in his life for so long,being able to go to things, be
(16:14):
in the same room with your ex.
You don't have to want to bewith them.
I don't want to be with my ex.
I'm utterly delighted he'sfound somebody who makes him
really happy, that's brilliant.
But being able to be together,all in the same room, with the
kids in the same room, beingcivil to each other, buying each
(16:35):
other a drink, you know, thosesorts of things are really
important and I'm a child ofdivorced parents and my parents
cannot do that.
They divorced when I was 12.
I'm nearly 52.
They still can't be in the sameroom together and I didn't want
that for my some, for mychildren, because it's still
(16:58):
really, it's still reallypainful and difficult for you,
right?
Marcie Shaoul (17:01):
so yeah, and that's the long-term mindset,
right there.
Right, your parents can't be inthe same room together without
it being difficult, and for you,how does that feel?
Just interviewing you now, buthow does that feel?
Tamsin Caine (17:14):
I don't know.
Well it's.
It's really hard, it's reallyhard and we we have made
decisions, both myself and mysister, that we wouldn't, that
we would have made differentlyhad we had parents that were
able to be in the same roomtogether.
And both myself and my exdidn't want that for our
(17:36):
children because we'd bothexperienced it.
His parental situation wasslightly different, which I
won't go into, but we bothexperienced it and neither of us
wanted that for our kids and Ithink that impacted how we
behaved.
But for those people whohaven't experienced it as a
child themselves, I don't knowhow easy it is to understand
(18:00):
just how much that impacts umpeople.
So so we can do it at any time.
We can co-parent at any time.
We can start day one of theseparation.
We we can start during thedivorce, if it's easier, after
the divorce, we can start then.
If you've not spoken to themfor several years and you listen
(18:21):
to this going, I just want tofix this now because it's a bit
of a mess.
Where do we start?
Marcie Shaoul (18:30):
It's all about communication, right?
So, just talking more generally, what needs to happen is you
need to be able to tocommunicate without conflict,
and if you can't do that, youneed to go and get the skills,
the tools to be able to do that.
And just, there is support outthere and you need to.
(18:51):
I, you need to make an activedecision that I want to change
this, I want to turn it around,and you need to look at yourself
right.
You can't change your ex, nomatter how much some of us might
wish to, can't.
So you need to look inwards,you need to go right.
What is it I can do that willimprove this situation?
So, is it I'm going to stoprolling my eyes at drop off?
(19:12):
Is it I'm going to actually,you know, say hello?
Is it I'm not going to send thePE kit back dirty?
Is it I'm going to send anupdate after every you know
exchange of, you know whenyou're dropping off and picking
up?
And so look at yourself.
What is one small change thatyou can make today that's going
(19:35):
to improve your situation goingforward?
Ok?
Tamsin Caine (19:39):
I love that, and so you could be sitting there
going.
There's absolutely no chancethat I would be able to
co-parent with my ex becausethings are so bad that I just
don't think co-parenting is anoption, albeit all the caveats
about it being safe to do so.
Um, if it's safe to do so, butyou're still like we're just not
(20:04):
, we're just not in that space.
You're not saying that's notpossible, then you're saying
make a start and see if you canlook inward at some things that
you can change about therelationship with the other
person to potentially start andmove on to this co-parenting
(20:25):
journey yeah I'm saying.
Marcie Shaoul (20:28):
What I'm saying is if you go into a restaurant
and you're really rude to thewaiter and you're like, bring me
my food now you know what kindof response are you going to get
.
You're not going to get afriendly response, you're not
going to get a happy response.
You know you don't want toimagine that they might spit in
your food, but they might spitin your food, right?
If you go into the samerestaurant and you say you know,
(20:50):
good evening, hello, nice tomeet you.
Thank you very much.
You know you're polite, you'regoing to, you're much more
likely to get a more positiveresponse back.
So what I am saying is in anyinteraction, in any
communication, what you put outchanges and influences what you
get back.
So actually it's very powerfulthing to do to modify your own
(21:12):
behavior, to get back whatyou're.
It's very powerful thing to doto modify your own behavior to
get back what you're looking for.
And if you apply that toco-parenting, some people the
amount of people I get on theprogram where their co-parent
doesn't come right, it'sprobably about 50% of all
participants come on their ownand you know at the start, you
know when you're talking to themabout whether they're going to
(21:33):
come on the program or not.
They're like, well, you know myex won't do it.
And it's like, well you come,because actually, the changes
that you make, the boundariesthat you learn to set, the
language reframes that you willlearn to do, the interaction,
the control, the listeningskills that you get, the
self-management stuff that youlearn, you know there's 20
(21:55):
practical tools on this program.
I'm not going to list them allnow, but you know it's game
changing.
So what you're doing, even ifyour co-parent won't come on the
program or won't co-parent, youare holding it.
Remember that loop I talkedabout before.
You are holding up your side ofthat loop and even if the other
side isn't being held up byyour co-parent, you are
(22:18):
providing the safe, stable, youknow structure for the children.
You are interacting with yourco-parent in a way that is
respectful and, you know,communicative and that goes a
long way to showing yourchildren how to resolve conflict
, how to show up in conflict,about integrity, about different
(22:41):
value systems.
That are good, strong messagesand that in itself will keep
them nice and safe and stable.
So you know it's co-parentingwith one of you.
If you like, you might just beputting it out there and not
getting it back, but the impactis still really incredible on
your kids, and what I've seenhappen quite a lot is one parent
(23:03):
will come on the programme andthen, lo and behold, six months
later, other one goes.
Oh, actually, I've seen that myex has really changed and it's
made everything much better, andI would like to learn what
they've learned.
Tamsin Caine (23:16):
I was going to ask you that actually I've had
success stories like thatbecause it sort of feels like If
one of you is prepared to putthe work in, then it will start,
yes, filtering down, becausesuddenly you're communicating
differently anyway and andthings.
(23:37):
Maybe there's a move towardsbeing able to co-parent together
.
So, um, I'm going to put you onthe spot bit now, because we
haven't I haven't prepared youfor this, um, but have you got
any examples of, of a reallygood co-parenting relationships
that perhaps started off not sogreat?
Marcie Shaoul (23:59):
yeah, loads um yeah, we just um the program
that we've just finished.
So, um, it had a set of parentsdad lived in the uk with son
and mum lived in the UK, in theUS, with two daughters and there
.
So when they split up it wasvery explosive.
It was highly uh, you know,high level of conflict and mum
(24:23):
took the girls back, uh, to theStates and the son didn't want
to go, so he stayed in the UKwith the dad, and you know, so,
straight away, you've got ageography problem and a
non-communication problem and itwas really really difficult.
They were not communicating andit was actually the dad that
(24:44):
booked on the program, um, forboth of them, and, you know,
just told the mum with, like Ithink it was about 24 hours
notice.
So she came and was veryresistant to do it.
No, I did, yeah, and she waslike, oh well, I'm not going to
do it, I'm going to.
Just, you know, anyway they gotthe level of the programme
where there was one-to-onesupport with me Okay, which is
(25:06):
which which was probably quitehelpful, I think and within
three weeks they were talking.
Within three weeks they werehaving family Zooms which
weren't descending into chaos.
They are now at a point.
They've been, they've triedthis is her words, actually, I
(25:28):
think about 20 different thingsand nothing worked for them.
They tried mediators, theytried therapists, they tried.
You know, the lawyers wereprobably not being massively
helpful because I think theywere fueling some of the
argument.
And now they speak, now theymake decisions, now they can
co-parent, they plan, you know,and they get on.
(25:49):
Actually, it's not just thatthey're just doing going through
the road, they actually get onand it's been really, really
good and I've been absolutelydelighted with that, because
that was a really tricky one.
That's just one of many.
I've had parents who, like Isaid before, haven't spoken for
(26:12):
years.
They learn the tools.
It's harder for them, but theylearn how to listen to each
other.
You know, they generally comewhen there's a big decision that
needs to be made Lawyers arereally expensive.
It's more cost efficient to gothrough a program like this and
they get the tools that thenlast them forever.
You know, school decisions whenthey haven't spoke out of
(26:32):
parents who hadn't spoken toyears, they were making decision
about secondary school.
They came on the program they,by the time they got to step
five, which is how to makedecisions, they could make the
decision together.
You know, it might have been abit forced and a bit awkward,
but it wasn't confrontationaland argumentative and I think
that's when I say it just needsto be good enough.
Tamsin Caine (26:49):
That's a really good example of that yeah,
absolutely, it's like you say,you don't need to be inviting
each other around for tea.
And there are, you know thereare, there are co-parents who do
.
You know, if you, if anybodywants to have a lesson back,
that we've recorded a podcastepisode with Catherine and Andy
Morgan and Andy Morgan, um, andthey have co-parenting like.
(27:20):
They're like the five gold starversion of it that most of us
humans can't even contemplateachieving.
But, you know, if you can, ifyou can have a conversation, if
you can make, as you say, makedecisions together, I think
that's it's hugely valuable.
And one of the things that wefound valuable was when, um,
when our particularly ourdaughter was a teenager and she
(27:41):
used to um ask me because they,so they lived most of the time
with me and so she'd ask me forsomething.
I'd say no, she'd go straightto her dad and ask him for it.
I mean, it's, the same thinghappens if you live in the same
house.
She went straight to him andasked him.
He then phoned me up and went Iassume you've said no to this
(28:04):
and I was like, absolutely.
And he's like don't worry, I'llsupport your decision and
reiterate what you've said.
Support your decision and andyou know, reiterate what you've
said and those sorts of thingsare the times when and it would
fuel the fire if you lived inthe same house it's not a
different, it's not exactly.
It's not a different dynamicjust because you live in two
(28:26):
houses same thing, thathappening, but it feels harder
because you're in.
Yeah, houses.
Marcie Shaoul (28:32):
I think I think these and you see that a lot it
becomes it can become a umexcuse probably isn't the right
word, but we can kind ofattribute the fact that we're
co-parenting to difficultsituations, right.
So, um, you know, if you've gotsome, a child going through
gcses, for example, and they'rereally, really stressed, you
(28:53):
know someone out on the outsidelooking in might say, well, it's
because you know parents aren'ttogether and it's really
difficult.
But actually, you know youmight have the same situation.
You probably would have thesame situation if parents are
together.
So it's it's really importantto remember that it's.
It's it's not the reason foralways for difficult situations.
(29:13):
Um, and if you can worktogether, like you just gave
that really great example, thenit's really important.
And why do kids do that?
Why do they play us off againsteach other?
Oh my gosh, it's a nightmare.
Tamsin Caine (29:24):
I think they might get a different answer from the
parent.
But uh, yeah, it's all good.
So just a question about wetalked very briefly about I
don't want to go into a hugeamount of detail, but about kind
of parallel parenting, whereyou just can't.
(29:45):
You're doing your absolute best, you've done the course you've
read the book, your absolutebest, you've done the course,
you've read the book, yourcommunication is as good as it
can possibly be, but the otherparent is just in a space where
they're just not willing or ableto co-parent with you.
(30:07):
How do you go about acceptingparallel parenting?
Because you'll have parallelparenting.
You've got your rules in yourhome and they look like that,
and then the kids might go tothe other parent's home and then
everything's different, therules are all different.
(30:27):
How do you get your head aroundthat?
How do you accept that?
How do you deal with it?
Marcie Shaoul (30:35):
let's look at it from the kids perspective.
Right, so it's really, you know, imagine most of us live in the
same house.
Right?
When you're the child ofdivorced parents, separated
parents, you know you're goingfrom house to house and it's not
just the rules that aredifferent, right, it's the
cutlery, it's the washing powderthat's used, it's you know, how
tidy is the house, it's thebowls, it's the smells, it's the
(30:57):
.
You know one of you has a pet,one of you doesn't.
So everything is different.
Right, so there's already aperiod of adjustment when a
child has to go from one houseto the other.
So what I know works really wellis clarity and information,
right?
So if you, if you can'tco-parent, if your ex won't
(31:18):
co-parent with you, there's notmuch you can do apart from
everything we've talked abouttoday to kind of have an impact
on that.
So if you are where you are,you've got to work with what
you've got.
So let's look so from the kidsperspective.
They just need clarity andstructure.
So in your house, you know, youcan put house rules on the
fridge, you can put chores onthe fridge, you can make sure
(31:41):
you can ask them.
You know what's it like in yourother house.
Do you prefer that?
Let me help you make it likethat.
Sure, you can ask them.
You know what's it like in yourother house.
Do you prefer that?
Let me help you make it likethat here.
You can support that, you canacknowledge it and you should
definitely name it.
You know, for your children Imean depends how old they are,
but let's assume they're oldenough to understand you can go.
Oh, it might be different indad's house or mum's house.
What can we do to make that abit easier for you here?
(32:04):
Mum's house, what?
What can we do to to make thata bit easier for you here?
What can we modify?
Not saying you changeeverything to match the other
house, but I am saying you know,try and try and do small things
, tokens, reach out, gesturesthat make your kids feel like
they're being really seen, likethat their parent understands
that it might be difficult forthem.
That's how I would answer that.
(32:24):
I think
I love that that's really.
That's really.
It's really good to hear,because it can, that I think
that can be.
That can be really hard whenyou're, when you have boundaries
that you feel like, no, I can'tchange those boundaries, but
there might be some things.
Even though you've got your,I'm not, I can't change those
boundaries, but there might besome things.
Even though you've got your,I'm not, I can't change those
(32:46):
because those are hard, fastboundaries for me, but maybe I
can do some things around theoutside.
Yeah, yeah, a little bit moredifficult to have that change
.
.
and name it.
Name it for your children, nameit, let them know that you know
Tamsin Caine (33:01):
yeah, yeah, no, I think that's really important
because it's acknowledging andit's recognizing and it's it's
also allowing them to talk aboutwhat happens in the other part
of their life, because I thinkthat one of the difficulties is
that you have two separate livesalmost you do and you're
(33:24):
perhaps discouraged fromspeaking about that one in this
house and that one in this houseand and and that can that can
make things really well, theopposite.
Marcie Shaoul (33:33):
You're pumped for information as soon as you
change houses yeah, yeah, allthose things are really tricky.
I think so and I think you know,even when you do it well, I
think children still have tocompartmentalize.
You know what happens in onehouse stays there, and what
happens in the other house staysthere.
You know I see my son doingthat and you know he tries
(33:53):
because we talk about it andhe's obviously 17 now, so it's
different.
But you know you don't want topush them for information but
you do want them to feelcomfortable enough to be open
and it's it's kind of a fineline.
I don't know that I've alwaysgot it right, but, um, or maybe
I've gone too far and just letlet him decide what he wants to
say.
And then, so you know, we, wewe talk about it quite a lot, um
(34:16):
, and we we try and kind of helphim understand that it's okay
in both houses to talk about it,and the more so he has, you
know, four parents effectivelynow, me and his stepdad and his
dad and his stepmom, and wecommunicate more now really in
the last few years than we havebefore and that helps him.
(34:37):
That helps him feel comfortableenough to be open and to kind
of swap information.
Tamsin Caine (34:44):
So yeah, Absolutely, and I think another
thing that I've that I think isuseful is is not stopping them
from remembering how things were, like acknowledging that there
was a time when you were allliving in the same house.
I mean, it's slightly differentwhen you had a one-year-old,
(35:06):
but mine were, you know, minewere um 10 and 11 or something
around that sort of age whenwhen we split up and they do
remember like what life was likebefore, and I think
acknowledging you know fun timesthat you had and remembering
holidays that you went on andand things that you all did
together is is valuable, becauseyou would do that in a if you
(35:29):
were all living in the samehouse, and I think to let those
conversations be still held justacknowledges that it's still
valuable.
It still means something to youas well.
So I think those are things todo.
Marcie Shaoul (35:44):
I think that's right and you know, even in my
situation, you know I talk aboutthe relationship.
You know, my son's girlfriendnow lives right opposite the
place where, um, his dad and Ihad our engagement party, right.
So I said to him you know,that's where daddy and I had our
dad and I had our engagementparty, and you know, like it,
not being afraid to do that, Ithink not, not everyone can do
(36:08):
that, but I think if you can aimfor just normalizing it, then
it's, it's helpful
Tamsin Caine (36:13):
Yeah, no, absolutely, and we are very
sadly coming to the end of ourtime together because really do
feel like I could talk to youfor hours and I know everybody
always says that but I genuinelyhave so much to so much
conversation that I could havewith you.
Um, is there anything that Ihaven't asked you or anything
you want to add that you feelwould be valuable?
Marcie Shaoul (36:35):
oh, um.
If you are struggling, I justwant to say if you are
struggling, buy the book onAmazon, um, or come and book a
call with us for free and comeon the programme.
Talk to us about coming on theprogramme.
We are here to help.
We have a framework that works.
If you're struggling, we canmake it better for you.
Tamsin Caine (36:54):
Yeah, absolutely, and please do reach out because
you know, I know parents worryabout their kids and how divorce
is going to impact them andkids can be okay, they can come
out of divorce okay and they arevery resilient.
But if you can make the wholeprocess even easier by following
(37:15):
Marcie's program and gettingthe book, getting some really
good advice, then I would reallyrecommend doing that.
We've We've got links in theshow notes to buying the book
and also to getting hold ofMarcie to arrange a call with
her to go on her fabulousprogramme.
So just remains for me to thankyou for joining me today,
(37:36):
Marcie.
I've really enjoyed chatting toyou.
Marcie Shaoul (37:39):
Thanks so much for having me, Tamsin.
I've really enjoyed it too.
Tamsin Caine (37:42):
Wonderful.
And and to you if you'veenjoyed today's episode, please
do give us a five star rating.
It does help us to get thepodcast out to more people and
so that we can we can help evenmore people.
So many thanks and I'll see younext time.
Hi, and I hope you enjoyed thatepisode of the Smart Divorce
(38:05):
Podcast.
If you would like to get intouch, please have a look in the
show notes for our details orgo onto the website
wwwsmartdivorcecouk.
Also, if you are listening onApple Podcasts or on Spotify and
you wouldn't mind leaving us alovely five-star review, that
would be fantastic.
I know that lots of ourlisteners are finding this is
(38:29):
incredibly helpful in theirjourney through separation,
divorce and dissolving a civilpartnership.
Also, if you would like somefurther support, we do have a
Facebook group now.
It's called SeparationDivolution uk.
Please do go on to facebook,search up the group and we'd be
(38:50):
delighted to have you join us.
And the one thing I would saydo please answer their
membership questions.
Okay, have a great day and takecare.
Hello and welcome to the Smart Divorce podcast.
I'm very honored to be joinedtoday by the very fabulous Ma
Shaoul, who, I cannot believe,has just informed me that we've
never had her on the podcastbefore, so I don't know what
I've been playing at.
But huge apologies for that,because she is amazing.
(00:26):
I've been a huge fan for a longtime.
has just released her I thinkfirst book, which is incredible
and I have at home and I'm aboutthree quarters of the way
through.
It's absolutely brilliant.
And if you haven't got it, goget it.
She also runs a co-parentingprogram, so today's conversation
(00:49):
is going to be everything to dowith, um, co-parenting or or
not co-parenting, if you'refinding that you have a, a
parent on the parent who'sparenting with you but isn't
particularly into co-parenting,or not being very compliant or
(01:09):
helpful or willing, we'll talkall about that as well.
So, , welcome to the podcast.
Thank you for joining me.
Marcie Shaoul (01:16):
Thank you so much for having me.
I can't believe we haven't doneone together, but I'm really
happy to be here and that was areally lovely introduction and
I'm blushing
She's really not.
If you have a look on YouTube,you'll see she's not, she
Feels like I amAnd I'm really glad you're
enjoying the co-parenting methodbook.
I'm really, really pleased it'syeah, that has been a.
(01:38):
It's been a hell of a year.
Tamsin Caine (01:40):
It has been a hell of a year and it was a hell of
a launch and there was so muchon LinkedIn about what an
incredible book it is.
If you are interested in buyingit, we will put a link in the
show notes so that you can geton Amazon and get that ordered,
(02:02):
because it's very worthwhile.
Before we crack on and I feellike I've talked a lot already,
but could you just introduceyourself, give us a bit of
background about what led you tothe work that you do now in
terms of the co-parenting methodand your business co-parenting
(02:22):
way.
Marcie Shaoul (02:23):
Yeah, of course.
So I used to work in thediplomatic service and I used to
run communications departmentsand I used to work in the space
between governments and NGOs,helping them to listen well to
each other and talk well to eachother and about, you know,
global issues.
(02:44):
Sounds very grand, but it wasquite.
It was quite, quite detailed,but it was.
It was really interestingbecause in that space I started
to realise it's not often whatwe say, it's how we say it, it's
the language we use and it'show we listen without
assumptions.
And I did that for a number ofyears.
And then, in 2009, I gotdivorced and somebody passed me
(03:09):
the number of a coach, In fact,my best friend, Sarah.
She was like take this number,call this woman.
I'm like what's a coach?
You know, 2009, there weren'tcoaches really and I called up
this woman called SandraRichardson, who was spectacular,
and I had some just coachingwith her not divorce coaching or
more life coaching, I supposeand in that moment I really
(03:30):
learned to take some kind ofactive decisions, become a bit
more courageous, and all thetools I learned with what
learned from coaching stayedwith me.
And so when I left that work in2013, 14, 15, I can't even
remember now, A bit ago, yeah, awhile ago, I retrained to
(03:51):
become a coach because I thoughtit was so powerful.
And then, you know, because ofmy own divorce, I was
co-parenting and my son was onewhen we got divorced.
He's 17 now.
You know, I kind of put all ofthose things together the
coaching tools, thecommunication skills, my own
(04:11):
experience and I started tothink, you know, gosh, I could
have really done with somethingin the early days.
You know, it was reallydifficult.
The separation was veryemotionally charged it was.
You know, we had a one-year-oldand we didn't.
There was no blueprint, wedidn't know what to do and I
thought, hang on a minute.
You know, I know what to do nowand I know what works and I've
(04:32):
got this experience and I've gotthis skill set that maybe I can
build something that will helpother people.
And that's when it was born.
So in 2016, I kind of broughtthis idea of co-parent coaching
into the UK and it was.
You know it was.
It's always hard to bringsomething new in, but you know,
(04:58):
the landscape was changing infamily law and you know people
were becoming more and morereceptive and I've really seen
that over the last decade.
Law firms want to want to workin in in ways that cause less
conflict, and lawyers want to bemore collaborative and more
child focused, but there stillwasn't a methodology out there.
So my one-to-one work that Iwas doing with clients, you know
, kind of morphed and andchanged and grew and we launched
(05:22):
an online program in 2022.
And that has now changed andmorphed and grown and we you
know I published the book inearlier this year, but I've been
working on refining the methodfor obviously a while before
that, and then our onlineprogram now reflects the book.
So it's a six step process, butI'm sure we'll talk about that
(05:42):
in a minute.
So that's my very convolutedjourney to get to where I am
today.
Tamsin Caine (05:47):
You know it's funny, I often think that
mothers in particular would makefabulous peace diplomats to go
and conquer world peace, becauseI do think that the skills we
have to learn in negotiation andcommunication certainly set us
(06:08):
up well for that so it's I lovethat you almost did it the other
way around
yeah, yeah, you're right, Ithink we we could do with a few
more of us in that space, forsure
yeah definitely for for sure.
Um, so okay, let's, let's getinto the, the nub of
co-parenting, because you know,nobody gets married expecting to
(06:33):
get divorced, nobody has achild expecting not to live in
the same house and parentstogether, and and I don't know
what your view of ofco-parenting is, but for me it's
about parenting in two separatehouses but both, both kind of
working together to parent thechildren as if you were in the
(06:54):
same house but but doing it fromtwo houses and sort of
retaining that, that family, andit.
It sounds dead straightforward,um, and we were likening it
before we pressed record to thewhole breastfeeding thing.
You know, it should be reallynatural, it should be very
straightforward, and it's reallynot, and people need a lot of
(07:15):
guidance.
So I don't want to completelyspoil it and trash anyone
needing the book on your courseand trash your anyone needing
the book on your course, butjust give us a brief outline as
to kind of what co-parenting isand how people might start on
that route okay.
Marcie Shaoul (07:35):
Well, the first thing I'm going to do is
completely agree with you andsay it's not easy to co-parent.
In fact, it might be thehardest thing you ever do.
To work together with somebodythat you don't like anymore, you
don't trust anymore, who makesyou angry, upset, all those
things that can come withseparation.
And yet it is probably the mostimportant thing you can do
(08:00):
after separation for yourchildren, right?
So you've got these kind ofpolar opposite things straight
away.
So it's very difficult to I.
You know it's not justsomething that happens naturally
for the majority of us.
It's something that takes aconscious decision, takes work.
We have to, you know, manageourselves.
We have to manage what we say,we have to kind of not lose our
(08:24):
rag at our ex.
You know all of these thingsand and you know, in in a time
when you really might be findinglife tough, ok, so that's the
first thing I want to say.
I don't for a minute go yeah,yeah, everybody should co-parent
.
It's not easy.
I've done it for 17 years.
(08:45):
We are good now.
We are all good at co-parenting, but it's not been an easy
journey always, so that I wantedto start by saying that.
But co-parenting is exactly asyou say, tamsin.
It's this idea of workingtogether, continuing to parent
together collaboratively afteryou've separated, regardless of
(09:07):
what you feel about each other,right?
And it's this idea thatobviously it's over in two homes
and it requires communication,it requires decision making, it
requires respect and that is thedefinition, really, of
co-parenting putting your kidsfront and center and continuing
to parent them together despitenot being in a relationship
(09:28):
anymore.
However, it's not always safefor some people to co-parent and
for some people don't.
You can't co-parent, right,that I really want to say that
as well.
Um, nice and early, becauseit's not for everybody.
Um, and there are other thingsthat that you can do.
You can do shared parenting,which is where you split your
(09:49):
kids time down the middle andyou know you don't need to.
You can choose to communicateor not.
Or there's parallel parenting,where there's very, very little
communication and you just doyour own thing in each house.
That's obviously a very quicksummary.
We go into it in more detail inthe book.
You know that's, that's whatthat is.
But if we're here to talk aboutco-parenting, then it's it's
(10:10):
about, and it's important,because if you can co-parent and
if it is safe for you toco-parent, what you're doing for
your kids and for anybodywatching the video.
I'll do my little demo.
You're creating a nice loop.
You're creating a nice loop ifyou imagine, if you're just
listening a loop of elasticaround your children, with both
of you as the parents at eitherend, holding that elastic nice
(10:32):
and tight around the children,and the children exist in the
middle of this co-parental loop,nice and safely.
You know their parents arestill upholding their end and
everything feels nice and safeand stable despite the
separation.
Right, kids can recover from atrauma.
Yes, it is a trauma when theirparents separate, but it's
definitely something that theycan move through and manage and
(10:54):
learn to live with successfully.
It's the sustained conflictthat is really destructive.
So the method is about tryingto well, the method is about
reducing that conflict and whenparents apply the tools in the
method and we'll talk about itin a bit that reduces the
conflict and that's where weneed to get to for the kids.
(11:16):
If we're continuously inconflict around our children,
it's really, really damaging tothem.
So the decision that we need tomake when we separate is okay.
Do you know what?
I don't like you my ex.
I don't like you.
I don't trust you.
I don't want to be with you,but I have.
We have these children togetherand that's our most fundamental
priority.
(11:37):
So we need to somehow find away through this to be able to
continue to, to bring them upsafely.
So that's, that's why it's whatit is and that's why it's
important
Tamsin Caine (11:48):
Perfect, perfect summary.
And I guess that the hardestpoint for me about co-parenting
feels like the bit during theactual divorce process.
Whilst there's all the I'mgoing to call them negotiations
(12:10):
but they're not even alwaysnegotiations but whilst you're
trying to find your way throughthe mess that is divorce,
working out where you're goingto both going to live, working
out how the kids are going tosee you both, working out the
money stuff, there's a lot ofemotion flying about during that
(12:31):
period.
Should people even be lookingto start co-parenting from day
one, or is it something thatcomes in later?
Marcie Shaoul (12:44):
Great question.
I would say it depends on thecircumstances that you're in, on
how you found yourself in thissituation, but I would say that
your children don't stop beingyour children whilst you sort
your stuff out.
You know you've got to keep.
You've got to keep that in mind.
Um, and what I know from mymany years of working in this
(13:06):
space is um, if there is um, ifyou have separated in you know
difficult circumstances, youknow it will often start off as
very acrimonious, veryargumentative, a lot of
confrontation, and then it canease off okay as we get we as
time passes.
Um, so if you are listening tothis and you are like I could
never, I could never do that,we're just not in the space.
(13:29):
I would just invite listenersto think into more of a long
term frame of mind, because yourkids are going to need you to
work together to parent them andeven though you might feel like
you can't do that at the moment, you stay in that short-term
mindset of, oh, I hate him or Ihate her, then it's going to be
really difficult for you to takea step to consciously choose to
(13:51):
co-parent later on.
So even if you're like, Ireally don't like you, but I'm
gonna still do a bit ofparenting with you, even if it's
like a step in that direction.
I would say that ideally, youknow that's what you should be
aiming for.
You know it's not perfect.
It will never be perfect.
Parenting isn't perfect,whether you're together or not.
(14:11):
We just need to kind of do itas well as we can.
So earlier intervention is whatkind of the official term is,
isn't it?
It is better, if you like, hasa good long-term impact, but
it's never too late to start.
I've worked with people whohave not spoken for years when I
say years and you know, we getthem to a place where they can
(14:36):
talk to each other.
They still don't like eachother, but they don't need to
like each other.
They don't need to go onholiday to Greece together, they
just need some decisionstogether and for their kids to
go oh, do you know what myparents are talking to each
other?
Tamsin Caine (14:48):
bonus yeah, absolutely.
I think, if I had my time again, I think during the divorce we
didn't co-parent at all andalthough I didn't put the kids
in the middle and both of us hadthe kids sort of front and
(15:09):
center, there was so muchemotion going around.
I just don't think I'm saying,if I had my time again I would
try and co-parent from day one.
But actually I'm not sure if itwould have been feasible.
And it's become easier overtime the further and further
we've got from it.
But I think, just to think ofsome of the benefits that I've
(15:32):
had from it are things like wecan both go and watch.
So our son plays rugby.
We'll both be at rugby matchesand he loves that.
Um, we'll both go.
My daughter used to dance.
We'd both go and watch herdance shows, both my, so my
(15:52):
son's 18th birthday we all wentout for dinner with my ex's new
girlfriend and her family, withmy stepson, who I guess isn't
officially my stepson anymorebut still is to me because I've
been in his life for so long,being able to go to things, be
(16:14):
in the same room with your ex.
You don't have to want to bewith them.
I don't want to be with my ex.
I'm utterly delighted he'sfound somebody who makes him
really happy, that's brilliant.
But being able to be together,all in the same room, with the
kids in the same room, beingcivil to each other, buying each
(16:35):
other a drink, you know, thosesorts of things are really
important and I'm a child ofdivorced parents and my parents
cannot do that.
They divorced when I was 12.
I'm nearly 52.
They still can't be in the sameroom together and I didn't want
that for my some, for mychildren, because it's still
(16:58):
really, it's still reallypainful and difficult for you,
right?
Marcie Shaoul (17:01):
so yeah, and that's the long-term mindset,
right there.
Right, your parents can't be inthe same room together without
it being difficult, and for you,how does that feel?
Just interviewing you now, buthow does that feel?
Tamsin Caine (17:14):
I don't know.
Well it's.
It's really hard, it's reallyhard and we we have made
decisions, both myself and mysister, that we wouldn't, that
we would have made differentlyhad we had parents that were
able to be in the same roomtogether.
And both myself and my exdidn't want that for our
(17:36):
children because we'd bothexperienced it.
His parental situation wasslightly different, which I
won't go into, but we bothexperienced it and neither of us
wanted that for our kids and Ithink that impacted how we
behaved.
But for those people whohaven't experienced it as a
child themselves, I don't knowhow easy it is to understand
(18:00):
just how much that impacts umpeople.
So so we can do it at any time.
We can co-parent at any time.
We can start day one of theseparation.
We we can start during thedivorce, if it's easier, after
the divorce, we can start then.
If you've not spoken to themfor several years and you listen
(18:21):
to this going, I just want tofix this now because it's a bit
of a mess.
Where do we start?
Marcie Shaoul (18:30):
It's all about communication, right?
So, just talking more generally, what needs to happen is you
need to be able to tocommunicate without conflict,
and if you can't do that, youneed to go and get the skills,
the tools to be able to do that.
And just, there is support outthere and you need to.
(18:51):
I, you need to make an activedecision that I want to change
this, I want to turn it around,and you need to look at yourself
right.
You can't change your ex, nomatter how much some of us might
wish to, can't.
So you need to look inwards,you need to go right.
What is it I can do that willimprove this situation?
So, is it I'm going to stoprolling my eyes at drop off?
(19:12):
Is it I'm going to actually,you know, say hello?
Is it I'm not going to send thePE kit back dirty?
Is it I'm going to send anupdate after every you know
exchange of, you know whenyou're dropping off and picking
up?
And so look at yourself.
What is one small change thatyou can make today that's going
(19:35):
to improve your situation goingforward?
Ok?
Tamsin Caine (19:39):
I love that, and so you could be sitting there
going.
There's absolutely no chancethat I would be able to
co-parent with my ex becausethings are so bad that I just
don't think co-parenting is anoption, albeit all the caveats
about it being safe to do so.
Um, if it's safe to do so, butyou're still like we're just not
(20:04):
, we're just not in that space.
You're not saying that's notpossible, then you're saying
make a start and see if you canlook inward at some things that
you can change about therelationship with the other
person to potentially start andmove on to this co-parenting
(20:25):
journey yeah I'm saying.
Marcie Shaoul (20:28):
What I'm saying is if you go into a restaurant
and you're really rude to thewaiter and you're like, bring me
my food now you know what kindof response are you going to get
.
You're not going to get afriendly response, you're not
going to get a happy response.
You know you don't want toimagine that they might spit in
your food, but they might spitin your food, right?
If you go into the samerestaurant and you say you know,
(20:50):
good evening, hello, nice tomeet you.
Thank you very much.
You know you're polite, you'regoing to, you're much more
likely to get a more positiveresponse back.
So what I am saying is in anyinteraction, in any
communication, what you put outchanges and influences what you
get back.
So actually it's very powerfulthing to do to modify your own
(21:12):
behavior, to get back whatyou're.
It's very powerful thing to doto modify your own behavior to
get back what you're looking for.
And if you apply that toco-parenting, some people the
amount of people I get on theprogram where their co-parent
doesn't come right, it'sprobably about 50% of all
participants come on their ownand you know at the start, you
know when you're talking to themabout whether they're going to
(21:33):
come on the program or not.
They're like, well, you know myex won't do it.
And it's like, well you come,because actually, the changes
that you make, the boundariesthat you learn to set, the
language reframes that you willlearn to do, the interaction,
the control, the listeningskills that you get, the
self-management stuff that youlearn, you know there's 20
(21:55):
practical tools on this program.
I'm not going to list them allnow, but you know it's game
changing.
So what you're doing, even ifyour co-parent won't come on the
program or won't co-parent, youare holding it.
Remember that loop I talkedabout before.
You are holding up your side ofthat loop and even if the other
side isn't being held up byyour co-parent, you are
(22:18):
providing the safe, stable, youknow structure for the children.
You are interacting with yourco-parent in a way that is
respectful and, you know,communicative and that goes a
long way to showing yourchildren how to resolve conflict
, how to show up in conflict,about integrity, about different
(22:41):
value systems.
That are good, strong messagesand that in itself will keep
them nice and safe and stable.
So you know it's co-parentingwith one of you.
If you like, you might just beputting it out there and not
getting it back, but the impactis still really incredible on
your kids, and what I've seenhappen quite a lot is one parent
(23:03):
will come on the programme andthen, lo and behold, six months
later, other one goes.
Oh, actually, I've seen that myex has really changed and it's
made everything much better, andI would like to learn what
they've learned.
Tamsin Caine (23:16):
I was going to ask you that actually I've had
success stories like thatbecause it sort of feels like If
one of you is prepared to putthe work in, then it will start,
yes, filtering down, becausesuddenly you're communicating
differently anyway and andthings.
(23:37):
Maybe there's a move towardsbeing able to co-parent together
.
So, um, I'm going to put you onthe spot bit now, because we
haven't I haven't prepared youfor this, um, but have you got
any examples of, of a reallygood co-parenting relationships
that perhaps started off not sogreat?
Marcie Shaoul (23:59):
yeah, loads um yeah, we just um the program
that we've just finished.
So, um, it had a set of parentsdad lived in the uk with son
and mum lived in the UK, in theUS, with two daughters and there
.
So when they split up it wasvery explosive.
It was highly uh, you know,high level of conflict and mum
(24:23):
took the girls back, uh, to theStates and the son didn't want
to go, so he stayed in the UKwith the dad, and you know, so,
straight away, you've got ageography problem and a
non-communication problem and itwas really really difficult.
They were not communicating andit was actually the dad that
(24:44):
booked on the program, um, forboth of them, and, you know,
just told the mum with, like Ithink it was about 24 hours
notice.
So she came and was veryresistant to do it.
No, I did, yeah, and she waslike, oh well, I'm not going to
do it, I'm going to.
Just, you know, anyway they gotthe level of the programme
where there was one-to-onesupport with me Okay, which is
(25:06):
which which was probably quitehelpful, I think and within
three weeks they were talking.
Within three weeks they werehaving family Zooms which
weren't descending into chaos.
They are now at a point.
They've been, they've triedthis is her words, actually, I
(25:28):
think about 20 different thingsand nothing worked for them.
They tried mediators, theytried therapists, they tried.
You know, the lawyers wereprobably not being massively
helpful because I think theywere fueling some of the
argument.
And now they speak, now theymake decisions, now they can
co-parent, they plan, you know,and they get on.
(25:49):
Actually, it's not just thatthey're just doing going through
the road, they actually get onand it's been really, really
good and I've been absolutelydelighted with that, because
that was a really tricky one.
That's just one of many.
I've had parents who, like Isaid before, haven't spoken for
(26:12):
years.
They learn the tools.
It's harder for them, but theylearn how to listen to each
other.
You know, they generally comewhen there's a big decision that
needs to be made Lawyers arereally expensive.
It's more cost efficient to gothrough a program like this and
they get the tools that thenlast them forever.
You know, school decisions whenthey haven't spoke out of
(26:32):
parents who hadn't spoken toyears, they were making decision
about secondary school.
They came on the program they,by the time they got to step
five, which is how to makedecisions, they could make the
decision together.
You know, it might have been abit forced and a bit awkward,
but it wasn't confrontationaland argumentative and I think
that's when I say it just needsto be good enough.
Tamsin Caine (26:49):
That's a really good example of that yeah,
absolutely, it's like you say,you don't need to be inviting
each other around for tea.
And there are, you know thereare, there are co-parents who do
.
You know, if you, if anybodywants to have a lesson back,
that we've recorded a podcastepisode with Catherine and Andy
Morgan and Andy Morgan, um, andthey have co-parenting like.
(27:20):
They're like the five gold starversion of it that most of us
humans can't even contemplateachieving.
But, you know, if you can, ifyou can have a conversation, if
you can make, as you say, makedecisions together, I think
that's it's hugely valuable.
And one of the things that wefound valuable was when, um,
when our particularly ourdaughter was a teenager and she
(27:41):
used to um ask me because they,so they lived most of the time
with me and so she'd ask me forsomething.
I'd say no, she'd go straightto her dad and ask him for it.
I mean, it's, the same thinghappens if you live in the same
house.
She went straight to him andasked him.
He then phoned me up and went Iassume you've said no to this
(28:04):
and I was like, absolutely.
And he's like don't worry, I'llsupport your decision and
reiterate what you've said.
Support your decision and andyou know, reiterate what you've
said and those sorts of thingsare the times when and it would
fuel the fire if you lived inthe same house it's not a
different, it's not exactly.
It's not a different dynamicjust because you live in two
(28:26):
houses same thing, thathappening, but it feels harder
because you're in.
Yeah, houses.
Marcie Shaoul (28:32):
I think I think these and you see that a lot it
becomes it can become a umexcuse probably isn't the right
word, but we can kind ofattribute the fact that we're
co-parenting to difficultsituations, right.
So, um, you know, if you've gotsome, a child going through
gcses, for example, and they'rereally, really stressed, you
(28:53):
know someone out on the outsidelooking in might say, well, it's
because you know parents aren'ttogether and it's really
difficult.
But actually, you know youmight have the same situation.
You probably would have thesame situation if parents are
together.
So it's it's really importantto remember that it's.
It's it's not the reason foralways for difficult situations.
(29:13):
Um, and if you can worktogether, like you just gave
that really great example, thenit's really important.
And why do kids do that?
Why do they play us off againsteach other?
Oh my gosh, it's a nightmare.
Tamsin Caine (29:24):
I think they might get a different answer from the
parent.
But uh, yeah, it's all good.
So just a question about wetalked very briefly about I
don't want to go into a hugeamount of detail, but about kind
of parallel parenting, whereyou just can't.
(29:45):
You're doing your absolute best, you've done the course you've
read the book, your absolutebest, you've done the course,
you've read the book, yourcommunication is as good as it
can possibly be, but the otherparent is just in a space where
they're just not willing or ableto co-parent with you.
(30:07):
How do you go about acceptingparallel parenting?
Because you'll have parallelparenting.
You've got your rules in yourhome and they look like that,
and then the kids might go tothe other parent's home and then
everything's different, therules are all different.
(30:27):
How do you get your head aroundthat?
How do you accept that?
How do you deal with it?
Marcie Shaoul (30:35):
let's look at it from the kids perspective.
Right, so it's really, you know, imagine most of us live in the
same house.
Right?
When you're the child ofdivorced parents, separated
parents, you know you're goingfrom house to house and it's not
just the rules that aredifferent, right, it's the
cutlery, it's the washing powderthat's used, it's you know, how
tidy is the house, it's thebowls, it's the smells, it's the
(30:57):
.
You know one of you has a pet,one of you doesn't.
So everything is different.
Right, so there's already aperiod of adjustment when a
child has to go from one houseto the other.
So what I know works really wellis clarity and information,
right?
So if you, if you can'tco-parent, if your ex won't
(31:18):
co-parent with you, there's notmuch you can do apart from
everything we've talked abouttoday to kind of have an impact
on that.
So if you are where you are,you've got to work with what
you've got.
So let's look so from the kidsperspective.
They just need clarity andstructure.
So in your house, you know, youcan put house rules on the
fridge, you can put chores onthe fridge, you can make sure
(31:41):
you can ask them.
You know what's it like in yourother house.
Do you prefer that?
Let me help you make it likethat.
Sure, you can ask them.
You know what's it like in yourother house.
Do you prefer that?
Let me help you make it likethat here.
You can support that, you canacknowledge it and you should
definitely name it.
You know, for your children Imean depends how old they are,
but let's assume they're oldenough to understand you can go.
Oh, it might be different indad's house or mum's house.
What can we do to make that abit easier for you here?
(32:04):
Mum's house, what?
What can we do to to make thata bit easier for you here?
What can we modify?
Not saying you changeeverything to match the other
house, but I am saying you know,try and try and do small things
, tokens, reach out, gesturesthat make your kids feel like
they're being really seen, likethat their parent understands
that it might be difficult forthem.
That's how I would answer that.
(32:24):
I think
I love that that's really.
That's really.
It's really good to hear,because it can, that I think
that can be.
That can be really hard whenyou're, when you have boundaries
that you feel like, no, I can'tchange those boundaries, but
there might be some things.
Even though you've got your,I'm not, I can't change those
boundaries, but there might besome things.
Even though you've got your,I'm not, I can't change those
(32:46):
because those are hard, fastboundaries for me, but maybe I
can do some things around theoutside.
Yeah, yeah, a little bit moredifficult to have that change
.
.
and name it.
Name it for your children, nameit, let them know that you know
Tamsin Caine (33:01):
yeah, yeah, no, I think that's really important
because it's acknowledging andit's recognizing and it's it's
also allowing them to talk aboutwhat happens in the other part
of their life, because I thinkthat one of the difficulties is
that you have two separate livesalmost you do and you're
(33:24):
perhaps discouraged fromspeaking about that one in this
house and that one in this houseand and and that can that can
make things really well, theopposite.
Marcie Shaoul (33:33):
You're pumped for information as soon as you
change houses yeah, yeah, allthose things are really tricky.
I think so and I think you know,even when you do it well, I
think children still have tocompartmentalize.
You know what happens in onehouse stays there, and what
happens in the other house staysthere.
You know I see my son doingthat and you know he tries
(33:53):
because we talk about it andhe's obviously 17 now, so it's
different.
But you know you don't want topush them for information but
you do want them to feelcomfortable enough to be open
and it's it's kind of a fineline.
I don't know that I've alwaysgot it right, but, um, or maybe
I've gone too far and just letlet him decide what he wants to
say.
And then, so you know, we, wewe talk about it quite a lot, um
(34:16):
, and we we try and kind of helphim understand that it's okay
in both houses to talk about it,and the more so he has, you
know, four parents effectivelynow, me and his stepdad and his
dad and his stepmom, and wecommunicate more now really in
the last few years than we havebefore and that helps him.
(34:37):
That helps him feel comfortableenough to be open and to kind
of swap information.
Tamsin Caine (34:44):
So yeah, Absolutely, and I think another
thing that I've that I think isuseful is is not stopping them
from remembering how things were, like acknowledging that there
was a time when you were allliving in the same house.
I mean, it's slightly differentwhen you had a one-year-old,
(35:06):
but mine were, you know, minewere um 10 and 11 or something
around that sort of age whenwhen we split up and they do
remember like what life was likebefore, and I think
acknowledging you know fun timesthat you had and remembering
holidays that you went on andand things that you all did
together is is valuable, becauseyou would do that in a if you
(35:29):
were all living in the samehouse, and I think to let those
conversations be still held justacknowledges that it's still
valuable.
It still means something to youas well.
So I think those are things todo.
Marcie Shaoul (35:44):
I think that's right and you know, even in my
situation, you know I talk aboutthe relationship.
You know, my son's girlfriendnow lives right opposite the
place where, um, his dad and Ihad our engagement party, right.
So I said to him you know,that's where daddy and I had our
dad and I had our engagementparty, and you know, like it,
not being afraid to do that, Ithink not, not everyone can do
(36:08):
that, but I think if you can aimfor just normalizing it, then
it's, it's helpful
Tamsin Caine (36:13):
Yeah, no, absolutely, and we are very
sadly coming to the end of ourtime together because really do
feel like I could talk to youfor hours and I know everybody
always says that but I genuinelyhave so much to so much
conversation that I could havewith you.
Um, is there anything that Ihaven't asked you or anything
you want to add that you feelwould be valuable?
Marcie Shaoul (36:35):
oh, um.
If you are struggling, I justwant to say if you are
struggling, buy the book onAmazon, um, or come and book a
call with us for free and comeon the programme.
Talk to us about coming on theprogramme.
We are here to help.
We have a framework that works.
If you're struggling, we canmake it better for you.
Tamsin Caine (36:54):
Yeah, absolutely, and please do reach out because
you know, I know parents worryabout their kids and how divorce
is going to impact them andkids can be okay, they can come
out of divorce okay and they arevery resilient.
But if you can make the wholeprocess even easier by following
(37:15):
Marcie's program and gettingthe book, getting some really
good advice, then I would reallyrecommend doing that.
We've We've got links in theshow notes to buying the book
and also to getting hold ofMarcie to arrange a call with
her to go on her fabulousprogramme.
So just remains for me to thankyou for joining me today,
(37:36):
Marcie.
I've really enjoyed chatting toyou.
Marcie Shaoul (37:39):
Thanks so much for having me, Tamsin.
I've really enjoyed it too.
Tamsin Caine (37:42):
Wonderful.
And and to you if you'veenjoyed today's episode, please
do give us a five star rating.
It does help us to get thepodcast out to more people and
so that we can we can help evenmore people.
So many thanks and I'll see younext time.
Hi, and I hope you enjoyed thatepisode of the Smart Divorce
(38:05):
Podcast.
If you would like to get intouch, please have a look in the
show notes for our details orgo onto the website
wwwsmartdivorcecouk.
Also, if you are listening onApple Podcasts or on Spotify and
you wouldn't mind leaving us alovely five-star review, that
would be fantastic.
I know that lots of ourlisteners are finding this is
(38:29):
incredibly helpful in theirjourney through separation,
divorce and dissolving a civilpartnership.
Also, if you would like somefurther support, we do have a
Facebook group now.
It's called SeparationDivolution uk.
Please do go on to facebook,search up the group and we'd be
(38:50):
delighted to have you join us.
And the one thing I would saydo please answer their
membership questions.
Okay, have a great day and takecare.
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