July 11, 2025 • 41 mins
The Smart Divorce Podcast has joined forces with Stowe Talks Podcast for this special collaborative episode! We are delighted to be joined by special guest Rhiannon Gogh, who is a SEND specialist financial planner. This is an area I am asked about more and more. It was great to have Matt Taylor, host of Stowe Talks, with us to answer the legal questions when it comes to ensuring that SEND families have the help they need.
Rhiannon Gogh FPFS
Rhiannon Gogh is an award-winning Chartered Financial Planner, a Fellow of the Personal Finance Society and a SEND (Special Educational Needs and Disability) Financial Planner. She is the Director of PlanIt Future, the UK’s first special needs only advisory firm and the Carers Academy, an online training and consultancy provider for parent carers. In 2024 she founded SENDA, the UK Alliance of Special Educational Needs and Disability Advisers, an independent working group of legal, financial and charity professionals. She has presented for charities and the national network of parent carer forums for nine years and provided financial adviser training for SOLLA, the CII and the PFS. In 2025, she released her first book, Planning With Love, A Guide to Wills and Trusts for Parents of Children With Special Needs. She lives in Somerset with her husband, and two sons, one of whom has profound autism.
The book https://bit.ly/PlanningWithLoveBook
http://www.carersacademy.co.uk/
www.planitfuture.co.uk
Instagram
LinkedIn
Eventbrite
Matthew Taylor
Matthew is a Partner at Stowe Family Law. He has been the co-host of Stowe talks, the Stowe Family Law podcast since its inception in 2022. Matthew is a financial specialist, focusing on resolving financial difficulties following divorce and separation, including high-net-worth cases. He has extensive expertise in nuptial agreements and cohabitation agreements and often advises clients on TOLATA matters. He is one of Stowe's pension experts, regularly working on cases involving complex pension structures as well as business assets. Matthew is a Legal 500 Leading Partner.
Find out more about the Stowe talks podcast at stowetalks.co.uk
and further support at Stowe Support https://www.stowefamilylaw.co.uk/stowe-support/
Tamsin Caine
Tamsin is a Chartered Financial Planner with over 20 years experience. She works with couples and individuals who are at the end of a relationship and want agree how to divide their assets FAIRLY without a fight.
You can contact Tamsin at tamsin@smartdivorce.co.uk or arrange a free initial meeting using https://bit.ly/SmDiv15min. She is also part of the team running Facebook group Separation, Divorce and Dissolution UK
Tamsin Caine MSc., FPFS
Chartered Financial Planner
Smart Divorce Ltd
P.S. I am the co-author of “My Divorce Handbook – It’s What You Do Next That Counts”, written by divorce specialists and lawyers writing about their area of expertise to help walk you through the divorce process. You can buy it here https://yourdivorcehandbook.co.uk/buy-the-book/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tamsin Caine (00:06):
Hello and welcome to the Smart Divorce Podcast, a
very special episode today ofthe Smart Divorce Podcast x
Stowe Talks.
It's a collaboration with thefabulous Stowe Talks podcast and
we are going to be talking tothe amazing Rhiannon Gogh, who
(00:26):
is a SEND financial planningspecialist.
So, for all of those of you whohave SEND children or are part
of SEND families, we're hopingthat today will really give you
a helping hand and tell you howto deal with this situation when
(00:47):
it comes to divorce.
So we will jump straight in andover to Matthew Taylor.
Matt Taylor, the host of StoweTalks.
Matthew Taylor (01:01):
Hello and welcome to a very special Stowe
Talks x Smart Divorce collabpodcast.
A bit of a new venture for usas we're joined by an old friend
of the podcast, Tamsin Cainefrom Smart Divorce.
I'm Matthew Taylor, partner atStowe Family Law, and today I'm
joined for a special episodewith Tamsin and Rhiannon Gogh, a
(01:22):
special educational needs anddisability financial planner.
Rhiannon is the director ofPlanit Future and founder of
SENDA, the UK Alliance ofSpecial Educational Needs and
Disability Advisors.
So, Tamsin, welcome back.
Rhiannon, welcome to StoweTalks.
We're going to have a fantasticdiscussion today about all
things SEND and divorce.
But if we can start byintroducing yourself, Tamsin, if
(01:44):
you can reintroduce yourself toour listeners please.
Tamsin Caine (01:48):
Thank you, Matt.
Thank you for agreeing to dothis fantastic collab, and when
I heard about the amazing workRhiannon was doing.
I needed to get her on ourpodcast and to have a wise
solicitor like yourself, Matt,available to answer all the
legal questions that I haven'tgot a clue about.
(02:09):
I thought it was an opportunitywe couldn't miss.
So it all started because Iread Rhianna's book Planning
with Love, which is behind heron the screen, and I've got my
copy here.
So I am a Chartered FinancialPlanner and Resolution
Accredited Divorce Specialist.
I've been doing this work for awhole long time now and I work
(02:32):
with couples and individuals whoare splitting up to help them
to work on their financialsettlement.
I think that's probably aboutit for today.
That'll do.
Matthew Taylor (02:42):
That'll more than do.
Sorry, I'm still feelingslightly taken aback at the
description of me as being awise solicitor.
I mean, obviously you areaiming to get Lisa co-hosted in
this with you, but she's toobusy and too important to turn
up today, so you get the secondchoice.
Rhiannon, welcome to thepodcast.
Could you just tell us a bitabout yourself, then, please?
(03:05):
Thank you so much for having meand thank you for the invite.
I really appreciate it.
So my name is Rhiannon Gogh andI'm a Chartered Financial
Planner, a Fellow of thePersonal Finance Society.
I'm the founder of SENDA, whichis the UK Alliance of Special
Educational Needs and DisabilityAdvisors, and I'm also the
Director of my own SEND planningfirm, Planit Future Financial.
Well, thank you very much.
So we're going to talk allthings divorce and SEND today.
(03:27):
So I mean, let's just startwith the absolute basics.
I'm sure most people listeningto this will know.
But when we're talking aboutSEND.
What are we talking about?
What does that mean?
What's the sort of the range interms of conditions and the way
that it can affect children?
Rhiannon Gogh (03:44):
So SEND.
So Special Educational Needsand Disability there are some
interesting statistics thatusually leave an audience
staggered.
So I will start with those andthen I'll sort of broaden it out
from there.
So, looking at disability first, 11% of children have some kind
of disability and that'saccording to UK disability stats
.
That figure has doubled overthe last decade, so that is
(04:08):
quite staggering in the numberin increases of those with
disabilities in children.
So 0 to 18.
So that's disability.
Special educational needs.
So when we say send, we say orspecial educational needs, it's
describing some kind ofadditional support that they
will need in their educationalsetting and that percentage in
(04:30):
the UK is near 20%.
So 20%, one in five childrenhave a special educational need.
The biggest prevalence or thelargest area of prevalence in
those both of those areasactually is around social
communication, communication.
So as far as diagnoses areconfirmed, our concern it is a
confirmed diagnosis in autism.
Usually that is the prevalentcondition if you're looking at
(04:53):
conditions within those numbers
Matthew Taylor (04:55):
Okay, so maybe let's kind of start with, before
we move on to the impact thatdivorce has on children with
SEND.
What are in any kind of familyunit, whether separated, whether
still together, whetherdivorcing?
What are in any kind of familyunit, whether separated, whether
still together, whetherdivorcing?
What are the core challengesthat families face?
Rhiannon Gogh (05:10):
Well, there are probably five key challenges
that I've identified and that'sthrough research over the last
10 years and presenting tofamilies.
So I present at least once aweek to families.
Last week was Derby, this weekwill be Somerset.
So I go out and I'll presentvirtually or in person to
families of children like mine.
(05:30):
So my son has autism, he's 15and he's pre-verbal and there
are five key challenges that Iwould categorise from, I would
say, caring, so you might lookat the caring responsibilities
that I have within the familyand how they'll continue.
So the unique part of what aparent carer does, if you sort
(05:53):
of look at that versus someonethat cares for another relative,
is I'll be lifelong caring formy son and I'll probably die
before he does so.
The person that I'm caring forwill outlive me and that's
absolutely terrifying.
So that's a really uniqueconcern for parent carers.
There are financial resilienceconcerns.
(06:14):
So it's really expensive tobring up a disabled child
generally accepted to be threetimes as much to bring up a
disabled child as a non-disabledchild and my earnings are
impacted by the level of carethat I have to provide.
So my son was up last night.
He can't sleep on his own, soone of us will always have to
stay with him overnight and thatmeans that, amongst other
(06:36):
things, it's difficult to get towork in the morning and it's
difficult to hold down afull-time job.
So we've got caring issues.
We've got financial resilienceissues.
What I'm trying to do in myfinancial planning is also
provide for him.
So it's likely that he wouldn'tbe able to work in the future.
So many parents like me arethinking, oh my gosh, if this
(06:57):
young chap can't work, then howcan we make plans now to make
sure he's provided for in thefuture?
So I've picked out the mainchallenges there, Matt.
I hope that gives you a picture.
Matthew Taylor (07:09):
Yeah, that's really really helpful and
illuminating.
And I think that people whomaybe don't have personal
experience of caring for orknowing someone who has a
disability, such as your son,you know, you hear that and you
think, oh goodness, it's alwayswider than you think.
I think it's the reaction.
You kind of think, oh, it mustbe quite hard, but then you hear
(07:32):
about the impact and you don'tthink about the day-to-day, the
exhaustion and things and thatlong-term thing and it's really
you know, you said it quitematter-of-factly and I'm sure
that you don't really feel thatway but the thoughts of you know
how outliving your you knowyour, your child's kind of
outliving you when you're theircarer is is pretty scary thing.
(07:54):
Um, I mean Tamsin, just I guess,bring you in at this point just
talked about Rhiannon, talkedabout some of the financial
considerations there.
When you're doing your workwith clients dealing with
finances and financial planning,is this something that comes up
often?
How do you go about tacklingthese kind of very long-term
care issues when you've gotchildren who might live, you
know, you know a great manyyears?
How do you factor that intoyour work?
Tamsin Caine (08:15):
Yeah, absolutely.
It's coming up more and moreand I think, although the
statistics that Rhiannon justquoted flawed me a bit, because
that's one in 10 or one in fiveand then one in five kids, I
mean that's, that's.
That's not then surprising thatit comes up in my work quite a
(08:35):
lot.
You know, more and more I'mmeeting families who have
children who are impacted likethis, and I think one of the
biggest issues is that familiesdon't know what they're going to
need in the future.
So it's really difficult.
I mean, look, none of us knowwhat's going to happen in our
future, whether they're going tobe able to be housed in
(09:08):
supported housing or whetheryou're going to need to provide
some sort of accommodation forthem, all of these things.
The matter if you've got to buya house for your child, that's a
.
I mean, it's a big enoughconsideration for the majority
of us who don't have SENDchildren.
Thinking about paying a depositfor our children to help them
get on the housing ladder, butactually considering buying a
(09:31):
house for them in the future.
We're talking about a wholedifferent ballgame.
So there are massiveconsiderations.
And then, obviously, asRhiannon talked about, there are
considerations post the peoplethat we're planning those lives.
So they want to make sure thattheir children can be looked
after and cared for and havefinancial stability when they're
(09:53):
not here anymore.
And I think that's one of thebiggest things that some
families are concerned about,and it's certainly one of the
things that Rhiannon covers veryeloquently in her book, about
thinking about thoseconsiderations and then, if you
chuck divorce into the mix,we're in a whole, a whole other
ball game.
Matthew Taylor (10:11):
Yeah, aren't we just well before we move on to
that particular ball game.
I wonder if and I know this isan enormous area full of great
complexities, but for anyonewho's listening, who's you know,
maybe perhaps someone's onlyrecently had a diagnosis of SEND
in their child maybe listen tothis and starting to think about
these longer-term things.
Are there any kind of, andTamsin, any kind of quick wins,
(10:34):
easy things, easy-ish things Imean easy, you know, relative
anything that someone in thatposition might look at doing
when they're starting toconsider their financial future?
Rhiannon Gogh (10:43):
So I think the biggest area is really around
estate planning.
So when we're thinking aboutwhat happens when I'm no longer
here, the biggest win that aparent can undertake is to think
about a specialist trustsitting within their will.
So the step back from that isjust to affirm that and this
shocked me too that many parentsof children, like Tristan, my
(11:07):
son, don't understand that whenthey pass away, if you name your
son and your woman, if theperson doesn't have mental
capacity, it doesn'tautomatically happen that they
receive their inheritance.
So I was really shocked tolearn that, and many parents
that I talk to when I travelaround schools nationally don't
understand that.
And then, to follow on fromthat, they don't understand how
(11:30):
to protect their young personagainst financial vulnerability
and how to make sure that thevaluable means tested care,
support benefits that they havein place is also not jeopardised
by an inheritance.
And the key to all of that isby setting up a world with a
specialist trust within it.
So that is a wonderful andselfless place to start yeah,
(11:51):
that's really useful.
Tamsin anything you would addon there in terms of the early
first step see you nodding awaywith that, so presumably agree
with everything that we haven'tjust said
yeah yeah, absolutely, and it'sit.
you know, that really shocked melearning that fact.
And the other thing and I'msure we'll come on to it is
about child trust funds, and Iknow this is something that
(12:12):
Yannin's really passionate aboutletting people know about that
if you've got a child trust fundfor your child and they fit
into the SEND category that theycan't receive their child trust
fund.
And I was like, well, of coursethey can't.
But what like?
How do you put that rightbecause, to an extent, if you've
(12:33):
not made provisions in yourwill.
There is potentially things youcan do about it, but child trust
funds a horrendous thought, butin terms terms of quick wins, I
think and it's probably not aquick win but certainly thinking
about who you want to haveguardianship of over your child
(12:54):
if anything happens to you,Because you know we're all the
same.
None of us know what's going tohappen to us.
We don't know how long we'regoing to be here.
We hope we're going to be herefor a very long time and most
planners assume that our clientsare going to be here till
they're 100.
But you don't know what'saround the corner.
And if you've got a send childwho you know is going to need
(13:14):
someone to have guardianship forthe rest of their lives,
finding that right person earlyon is is really important
okay, so there's, there's acouple of really helpful things.
You know, big topics to look at, but helpful things for anyone
who's going through this process.
So let's move on and sort oftalk about why we're here today.
I guess, how does this all addin as an extra layer of
(13:35):
complexities when someone'slooking at divorce?
So, rhiannon, let's start withyou.
When you're speaking to people,speaking to parents, I mean
obviously the stress involved,life stressful, parenting
stressful, the extra layers ofstress, like you said, talking
about sleepless nights andthings that go on for years and
years and years, not just in theearly years of a child's life.
That's going to put a strain ona lot of marriages.
(13:57):
What do you see in terms ofpeople deciding to separate and
divorce?
Divorce is that something yousee a lot of in the sort of SEND
community?
I do, but I do see it a lot and there is an
extra element of stress, I think, when you have an autistic
child.
But it saddens me because it'sit's such a team sport bringing
(14:21):
up a disabled child and say thatin the wrong way.
But a perfect example would bemy husband.
You know I knew I was coming onthis podcast today.
So he says, right, well, I'llhave Tristan last night so that
you don't have to get up in themiddle of the night and walk
around and put the lights backon and such, and we plan very
much like that as a team.
So, whilst I do see it, it'svery hard and that caring for
(14:43):
somebody adds an extra dynamicand an extra complication.
On the plus side, I do workwith divorced parents who very
much still want to plan togetherbecause they're still planning
the future of the same child andit's a child that is not going
to flee the nest at 18 or 21.
It's a child that I mean I saysay with my husband it could be
(15:03):
a retirement for three, not aretirement for two.
We'll have christian with us,so that there isn't really in
some cases the option not tocollaborate with planning
because the caring bit doesn'treally go away just because the
divorce happens.
Tamsin Caine (15:18):
That makes sense
Matthew Taylor (15:20):
yeah, no, I've certainly seen that on the cases
that I've been involved with.
Is that, I'd say, sweepinggeneralisation.
But the level of collaborationhas to be high, should be higher
.
That's not exclusive.
I've certainly had a couple ofcases where there hasn't been
collaboration and then thatmakes the normal complexities of
co-parenting even harder.
So I mean, perhaps what weshould talk about is there's a
(15:41):
couple of different areas.
I'll do a very little bit oflaw, keep that to a minimum.
But when you're looking at aseparation with children,
obviously you've got the twoareas, the actual provision for
who the children spends timewith, um, and you've got the
sort of financial elements.
So how does SEND play into that?
If the courts got to getinvolved, the parents can't
agree.
Firstly, if parents can agreeabout their arrangements for
(16:04):
their children, then generallythat's fine and the court
doesn't want to be involved.
If you get to the point whereyou need some um intervention,
then the you know the the courthas got to consider the factors
in section one, the children act, which includes the physical,
emotional and educational needsof the child.
So these additional needs arereally important.
The court will absolutelyconsider that.
(16:26):
Obviously continuity andcertainty and routine can be a
bigger thing.
That's a big thing for mostkids, but it can be a much
bigger thing for, um, a childwith SEND.
So you know, that's somethingthat the court's going to try
and weigh in in terms of thetime that the child's going to
spend.
But there's still thepresumption is that both parents
will be involved in the child'slife, unless there's a very
good welfare reason not to.
(16:46):
So that's just very briefly interms of timing, but what we're
going to in time that childrencan spend with their parents.
What we'll obviously focustoday on a bit more is finances.
So how does that play in?
Well, there's divorce andthere's separations of a married
couple, and we'll talk aboutboth a little bit.
But in terms of divorce, again,the main statutes, the
matrimonial causes act, and thefirst consideration in the court
(17:07):
is the welfare of any minorchild.
So that's the first thing thatthe court's got to think about
is the welfare of any minorchild.
It's also got to consider, um,the responsibilities that each
party has in or continue to haveas part of their marriage for
the foreseeable future, so thatthat can include, yes, a child,
but a grown-up child.
You know, the obligations andthe responsibilities of caring
(17:29):
beyond them turning 18, and alsoincludes you know what that
impact has on people's abilityto earn.
So we'll come on to this in aminute.
I think you know that's a bigfactor.
If you're unmarried, you canrely on Schedule 1 of the
Children Act, which has got someslightly different provisions,
but again it's similar in thatthe court wants to look at the
(17:52):
physical, educational, emotionalneeds, any physical or mental
disability of the child and themanner in which the child was
being, or expected to be,educated or trained.
So maybe the schooling isdifferent.
There's additional, additionalschooling provisions.
So that's a really quick runthrough some of the statutory
considerations, but let's putthese into practice.
(18:13):
So, tamsin, maybe talk, couldyou talk about some of the
financial challenges that becomeparticularly acute on divorce?
Tamsin Caine (18:21):
yeah, absolutely so.
I'm working with a number offamilies who, um, who have SEND
children and sadly, um, they'renot in a position that the
lovely families that Rhianna'stalked about and that you've
talked about, Matt, are in,where where there's very much a
collaboration, where they wantto do things together.
(18:42):
Um, unfortunately, the familiesthat I'm working with are are
in a position where it's verymuch on on the parent that I'm
working with, um, and they'rethe one that's unable to work
due to caring responsibilities.
They don't see their umchildren in a position where
(19:03):
they're able to work.
In these cases they're eitheradult children or very nearly
adult children, so 16, 17 yearsold but with these we don't know
what they're going to beentitled to.
We don't know what they'regoing to need, because the
(19:25):
parents have never been in thisposition before and they're not
experienced in in what the needsare.
So you know they're looking athousing not only themselves but
their children for the remainderof their lives.
That's a huge considerationbecause when we're looking at
that's their starting point,when we're looking at divorce
and finances, where are thechildren going to live, where
(19:48):
are the parents going to live?
And we're obviously looking athousing at both parties, at
housing at both parties.
And this is probably one fearthat I'm going to throw back to
you, Matt, because, yeah, welook at children's housing, we
look at housing the parents butquite often actually moving a
(20:09):
child out of area so let's saythe area is not affordable for
the parents to both have housesin moving the child out of area,
out of their supportivecommunity, out of the area is
not affordable for the parentsto both have houses.
In moving the child out of area, out of their supportive
community, out of the area thatthey know, even often out of the
property they know, will causeimmense distress.
How does the law deal with that, Matt?
Matthew Taylor (20:30):
I think it's really tricky.
I think that the problem inthis area, from a sort of
financial perspective, is thatyou have factors moving in
different directions that arenot compatible, and the factors
being your housing needs areprobably higher and more
expensive, but your income islower.
So your mortgage capacity islower.
So you need more capital, andthat doesn't create more money.
(20:53):
You know it doesn't create.
You know you're not, you create, there are extra issues, but it
doesn't create more money tomeet those problems.
So, um, the court's got to havea view as to what's best for
the child.
Um, sometimes a movement outthe area might just be
unavoidable, but there are otherthings that can be done.
Um, so sometimes what the courtcan do is make what's called a
(21:14):
measure order.
Now, these used, these used tobe pretty popular and now far
less so in general.
But a measure order the case ofMr and Mrs Mesher is basically
an order which says that oneparty who is the primary care of
the children can stay in thefamily home until the children
turn 18, at which point theproperty is then sold, and it's
where there's not the abilityfor the parties to both rehouse
(21:36):
and for there to be suitableaccommodation for the children.
They're not that popularanymore because it tends to
involve the non-remaining partybeing locked out from receiving
their share of the asset forpotentially a prolonged period
of time.
But there are orders that stillhappen, or deferred orders for
sale.
If not doesn't have to be on 18, but to give a few more years,
(21:56):
that is something that can beapplied.
The flip side to that is thatthe measure order was sort of
done on the assumption thatchildren leave home at 18, which
back in the 90s, when that casewas decided, was a thing and
now isn't really a thing, andcertainly isn't a thing if
you've got an SEND child.
But those are options you mightlook to maintain that
continuity for a longer period.
(22:17):
I mean, rhiannon, how does that?
Is that something that youpotentially see when you're
doing your financial planningwith?
With people you might say, well, let's stay in the family home
a bit longer than mightotherwise be the case, just to
provide that continuity for thechild?
Rhiannon Gogh (22:30):
Yes, but I think you've got to bear in mind the
siblings, and planning with thefamily home is very complex
because with some SEND familiesthey will.
They will know very clearly thatthey would want, for example,
with me.
I want my autistic son to beable to stay in this house, but
then it conjures up the problemof okay, so what happens to the
inheritance of his siblings?
(22:51):
So if I'm getting like, forexample, if my family home is my
entire, the bulk of my estate,and I'm leaving that to one son,
how does the other son feelabout that and how do I as a
parent feel about that?
So, yes, planning with thefamily home, as you said, but
there are extra complicationswhen you're looking at making
provision for siblings as well,I think.
Matthew Taylor (23:25):
Yeah, that's certainly a complicating factor,
both siblings and the sort ofnon-resident parent.
If we work on the assumptionthat maybe there's going to be
more of a primary carer typemodel, even where there's
collaboration, I think that'spossibly more common.
What that also leads to from alegal perspective is we talked
about reduced income for people.
That gives extra scope forpotentially spousal maintenance
claims.
So income is a really trickypoint.
The ability for a carer tomaximise their income is pretty
limited.
They may be able to get somesort of state support in terms
of benefits.
(23:45):
So I mean, rhiannon, what sortof help is out there for people
in terms of benefits?
We're looking at carer'sallowance.
What else have we got?
Rhiannon Gogh (23:51):
What I would suggest is benefits are
notoriously complex, especiallyuniversal credit.
It's very much on acase-by-case basis, so I always
suggest that parents go to someindependent benefit help and
that could be something likeentitled to or turned to us and
just make sure they're gettingwhat they're entitled to.
(24:12):
The two big things they tend tomiss out on are council tax
deductions that's a huge thingand also carers allowance,
because the thresholds forcarers allowance have now
changed so you can earn more andstill receive carers allowance,
and that only changed in April,so that hasn't quite sunk in
yet
okay, so, yeah, so that'sreally useful.
but, yeah, both those websitesare incredibly, incredibly
helpful when putting puttinginformation together from a
(24:36):
divorce perspective, because wewould look at it and say, okay,
what's your earning capacitygoing to be going forward, what
are you entitled to?
Because some of the benefitsyou may not be entitled to while
you're living together underthe same roof and then perhaps
if one party was to move out atthe end following a divorce, the
entitlement might change.
So it's really important tolook at that and really try and
maximise that level of income,because if you're looking at a
(24:57):
situation where maybe the familyhome is being retained so one
party moves out, the family homehas to then house themselves.
Their ability to pay spousalmaintenance on top of any child
maintenance is really tricky.
It's really imperiled.
Tamsin, any other sort of thingsthat you look at with your
clients when they're coming toyou and trying to square this
really difficult circle of youknow, moving on to the next
(25:18):
stage, not necessarily wantingto have a new property, but
having to release some equity,you know what other?
Are there any other magictricks that you can conjure up
for them?
Tamsin Caine (25:27):
I wish it was down to a magic trick, because that
would make it.
I think we don't.
We all meet people who we'dreally like to create some magic
for and just be able to solvethings really easily.
But, like you said, we've gothousing to consider, we've got
probably low income or theinability to earn any income,
(25:52):
and then we've got actuallyconsidering the child's needs
now, but also in the future andinto, you know, through through
our clients, retirements it's.
It's a very difficult puzzle tosolve and I think you'll
probably be able to talk on thisa bit more.
(26:12):
But you know we look, we lookat is it possible to to provide
some assets?
You know there might not be thepossibility of spousal
maintenance from income for the,the non-resistant spouse, to be
able to afford.
Couldn't really separate thecapital assets differently to
(26:32):
maybe square that circle?
And how does a court deal withthat?
Matthew Taylor (26:37):
yeah, I mean the .
The starting point for divisionof assets is add up and divide
by two of matrimonial assets oranything that's a product of the
marriage, and then you departfrom equality for a number of
reasons.
So the most common to meetneeds and in cases like this,
your needs, your needs forcapital, are likely to be
heightened by virtue of the factyour income is let's assume
that the resident carer's incomeis going to be lower.
(26:58):
So it probably means you needmore equity to buy a property,
or you need a slush fund tosupport you or to use equity
from a house sale.
Perhaps you have to go intorented and you have to use it to
pay the rent.
So perhaps, or alternatively,you can be looking at a spousal
maintenance order, but insteadyou capitalize that order.
(27:19):
So instead of someone paying Xamount per month in spousal
maintenance, you can say, well,let's instead of doing that over
, instead of paying a thousandI'm going to do easy math a
thousand pounds a month forthree years.
Instead of you pay that everymonth and say, well, a thousand
pounds a month for three yearsis 36,000 pounds.
You know you pay that everymonth and say, well, £1,000 a
month for three years is £36,000, you pay that as an extra sum
to capitalise a maintenanceclaim.
So there are various ways ofdoing it.
(27:41):
I think that.
So certainly that wouldprobably be my expectation that
there's more likely to be adeparture from equality, unless
you're dealing with a sort ofsharing case where there are a
lot of assets to go around, andmost cases aren't either.
I think what is tricky and we'retalking about it a little bit
before about needs.
So needs is this hugelyimportant concept and commonly
(28:03):
when we're looking at needs ondivorce, it's needs for housing,
needs for income, needs forpension Fairly foreseeable,
fairly predictable.
But with cases such as these,things seem to me to be far less
predictable and we have to lookat needs over a longer term or
the initial two, three years.
We have to start.
Family lawyers love saying this.
Family lawyers love saying wedon't crystal ball gaze.
(28:25):
I think in these cases we kindof have to crystal ball gaze.
So how do you approach that,rhiannon, the need to look in
the short, medium and long term?
Rhiannon Gogh (28:36):
That's very difficult, to be honest, when
you're talking to parents.
Um, some parents struggle tothink beyond friday, quite
frankly, let alone into thelong-term future.
My advice, when I'm talking toabout, first of all, I I don't
shy away from asking questionsabout that.
Um, many of the families that Iwork with want to talk about
(28:56):
their children and they want tospend time talking
optimistically about the futureof their child as well.
So what I will often ask is Iwill ask around long-term vision
about whether they're likely tolive independently, whether
they're likely to earn and work,what the vision is for the
long-term future.
And I'll usually preface thequestion by saying I know it's
(29:17):
hard, but I know it's difficult,but can you imagine them living
it?
I know it's difficult, but canyou imagine them working?
So I will always ask thequestion.
And then the second thing Iwould say is sometimes I will
speak to parents and they'll sayI just don't know.
Is the honest answer?
I really have no idea.
And in that scenario I wouldsay which is probably not the
answer you want to hear that is,to plan flexibly, so to build
(29:41):
in.
Matthew Taylor (29:42):
We hate flexible .
Come on, this is speaking to alawyer.
Here we deal with certainty andnothing else.
Rhiannon Gogh (29:51):
Well, I don't.
So I will build in the abilityfor one trust to change to
another, the ability to add infuture trustees, the ability to
have a backup guardian, all ofthose exciting flexibilities.
I'm sorry, that's how I tend toplan.
Matthew Taylor (30:05):
No, it's very, it's very sensible.
It slightly gives me a migraineat the thought if we like
things on one sheet of paper andmake things nice and clear.
But life doesn't work like thatIn the easiest, you know the
easiest in quotes, clear.
But life doesn't work like thatin the easiest, you know, the
easiest in quotes um divorce.
Life doesn't work like that.
So obviously in cases such asthis the flexibility is really
important.
Um Tamsin, you know, do you doyou?
(30:27):
Can you kind of recognize thatthat needs flexibility with your
clients?
Tamsin Caine (30:32):
yes, but I also spend my life working with
lawyers who need certainty.
Blame the lawyers we're awfulpeople.
Absolutely dreadful people.
I guess when we're working indivorce we need a little bit
more certainty.
We obviously want to giveflexibility to the family, but
(31:01):
with a little bit more certainty.
So we want to be thinking aboutwhat are the needs likely to be
, bigger needs likely to be forthe um send children?
How are we going to deal withthose bigger needs with both
parents?
Can we put anything into placeif something changes that we
can't currently anticipate?
So is the possibility of well,can we agree up front that if
(31:22):
there's a big need, financialneeds in the future that we pay
for that between us, that weshare bigger costs that we?
How are we going to work outwho pays what for these bigger
things?
Because it it can't all fallonto the resident spouse.
You know, if there's a bigchange needs to be made to the
(31:45):
property, for example because ofneeds of the child, that can't
all fall onto the residentspouse.
So how are we going to dealwith those in the future?
And if we can think about thosesort of things that might be
required in the future, we mightbe able to think flexibly
enough for the family's planningbut sort of precise enough for
(32:07):
the lawyers to be able to putsomething down in paper and in
order to keep them happy as wellyeah, I think that's all very
sensible stuff.
Matthew Taylor (32:15):
So for anyone listening to this and thinking,
oh, that's giving me some ideasor stuff that I haven't thought
about, I need to think about.
You know that I guess what'sthe?
And maybe thinking how do I goahead I mean, I'm going to cut
to chase and say the answer isto speak to you too.
Um, so what?
What's your role?
When do you maybe explain a bitabout how you work with parents
and how you work with families,and what does it actually look
(32:38):
like being a financial plannerworking with people in this
situation?
Rhiannon Gogh (32:42):
So many parents will come to me before they see
their solicitor and they'll cometo me because they don't really
understand the way forward.
They might have had aconversation amongst other
parents, they might have aninkling they have to do
something, but they're not surewhat they have to do.
So they will come to me almostlike a coordinator, so I'll be
able to talk to them about theprotections that we're looking
to put in place.
That's estate planning,providing care, funding for the
(33:06):
future and ultimately forming aspecial needs plan.
So that is estate planning,savings planning, care planning
and then not forgetting theparents planning too.
So planning for the parentsit's almost like a buy one, get
one free when you're a specialneeds planner because you have
an extra person to plan for.
So that's the role that I'llplay.
So they'll come to me, we'lltalk about the different options
and then we'll go together.
Usually I will refer to aspecialist solicitor to put in
(33:28):
place specialist trusts and thenI will, once that's done, I
will start care funding andputting together a picture of
that child's life and thenslotting together the funding
that sits behind that, makingsure that grants and benefits
are applied for and secured andmaking sure that all the
planning that the parents havein place is safely accessible
(33:50):
and that it doesn't impact thatfuture means tested care.
That's so incredibly important.
So that is my role.
And then I work within Sender.
So, in answer to your question,how does anybody get involved
in this or how do they find moreinformation?
Well, sender is a collaborationbetween financial planners and
legal advisors and charities.
So I work with the Mencap TrustCo.
(34:11):
I'll be working with specialistEHC solicitors and Wills and
Trust solicitors, all as a team.
And that's when special needsplanning is really the best,
when it's a team and we're kindof going back and forth between
ourselves and making sure we'vegot the right plan in place.
Matthew Taylor (34:27):
Fabulous and Tamsin anything that you can add
to that and how you know whatis in it for parents to start
working with a financial planner.
Tamsin Caine (34:43):
Then, if we tip in divorce into the midst of all
that that Rhiannon has just said, we complicate it even more.
With divorce.
It's always vitally importantto have a divorce team.
We've talked about this on thepodcast before.
But you definitely need um, afinancial expert, you need a
legal expert.
You preferably need anemotional support expert as well
, so therapist and divorce coachsomebody who can give you that
(35:05):
emotional support so that you'renot spending your hard-earned
cash crying on me on thatbecause we're not qualified to
deal with you with those thingsas well as somebody else might
be.
So we're adding the divorceinto the mix.
Quite often people come to mebefore they've seen the
solicitor.
Quite often they come via thesolicitor.
(35:26):
But we're going to help youwork out the money bit and we're
going to hold your hand throughthe process, and there will be,
if you are a SEND family.
There will be other things thatyou need to have in place and
that you need to do, and that'swhere we'd refer to Rhiannon if
you need to, but also would workon working with the Wilson
(35:51):
Trust listeners to make sureeverything's sorted out so that
once you come out the other side, everything's sorted.
But we've just thrown so muchstuff at you and to deal with
all of those things mean mostpeople suffer overwhelm when
they're going through divorce asit is and feel like it's a
full-time job.
So we're not going to do allthis.
(36:12):
Rome wasn't built in a day.
It's very slow, very careful,at your pace, you know.
No pressure, no rush.
You don't have to.
Just because your relationshipis broken down today, it doesn't
all need to be done tomorrow.
It needs to be at your paceyeah, I think that's really
helpful advice.
Matthew Taylor (36:31):
It can seem so overwhelming, and particularly
if you've got the extracomplexities of what can be a
very difficult home life andyour concerns about your child
and trying to manage theireducation and and all those
things that come with it on topof all the normal stresses, it's
um, it's a huge amount, but, um, well, that's been enormously
helpful.
Um, what we, as you know,tamzin, but what we always like
(36:51):
to do on these podcasts is leavepeople with a little top tip at
the end of you know, a littletakeaway message.
So I wonder if you could eachwith a little top tip at the end
of you know, a little takeawaymessage.
So I wonder if you could eachgive me your top tip for any
anyone who is, uh, an SENDfamily going through a divorce
where they're just about tostart or part way through the
process.
What's your each of your kind oftop tip is how to deal with
that
Rhiannon Gogh (37:11):
So my top tip is really just to be aware of the
foreseeable harms that exist forSEND families that don't exist
for other families, and thereare two big ones.
So I'm going to give you adouble top tip because that's
both really important.
Matthew Taylor (37:24):
Buy one, get one free.
Rhiannon Gogh (37:26):
Buy one, get one free.
So there is inheritance tax,estate planning, wills and
trusts.
So doing nothing as an SENDparent in the area of estate
planning is rarely a good thing.
So we always advise seeing aspecialist wills and trust
solicitor to get the estateplanning ticked and safe.
(37:46):
But on the other side, sothere's like two bookends of
special needs planning and thatis one side, which is estate
planning.
The other, as Tamsin rightlysaid, please be careful when
you're saving for a young personwith SEND.
Quite often families don'trealize that when the child gets
to 18, if they don't havemental capacity, they will not
be able to access their savings.
(38:06):
They may be very vulnerable ifthey could access it and it will
likely impact their meanstested benefits, care, support
when they get to that age.
Parents are very often unawareof that.
Perfect, I'm going to do a buyone, get one free as well.
Love it.
Tamsin Caine (38:26):
So my f irst tip is that dealing with son
children is not just a parentalissue.
It's an issue for the entirefamily is not just a parental
issue, it's an issue for theentire family.
So if you've got parents,brothers, sisters, uncles,
aunties who are thinking ofleaving money to your child, the
exact same thing applies toinheritances from them as it did
(38:50):
with inheritances from theparents.
So speak to anybody you thinkmight be likely to be leaving
money to your child and explainto them about the trust that
you've set up, all the work thatyou're doing to set trust up
with specialists and make surethat they're going to be able to
access those inheritances aswell and that those are set up
(39:10):
properly.
So that's my first top tip.
My second one is please buyRhiannon's book, because it's
brilliant.
Um, I've sent it out to atleast six clients already.
It's it will be on the list togo to anybody that I ever meet
who's got um, who's got somechild in their family?
Um, whether it's media or theirfriendship group or whatever,
(39:32):
it's flipping brilliant, thank,you one last time for a plug for
the book ryan.
Matthew Taylor (39:38):
So the book is called.
And where can it?
Where can people get itavailable at all good bookshops?
Let's do a proper, proper plugall good bookshops.
Rhiannon Gogh (39:45):
Yes, Planning with love by Rhiannon Gogh, all
good bookshops
Matthew Taylor (39:49):
fabulous Well, thank you both.
That was really illuminatingand hopefully really useful for
people.
So, um, that's it for thispodcast.
Thanks so much for listening.
If you'd like to find out moreabout Stowe Talks, visit
stowetalks.
co.
uk and please like, rate, shareand review this podcast where
you can.
If you'd like more informationon the brilliant work that
Tamsin does, head tosmartdivorce.
(40:10):
co.
uk for all the brilliant stuffon her website and her Smart
Divorce podcast, and for all thebrilliant stuff on her website
and her Smart Divorce podcast.
And to find out more aboutRhiannon's work, head to
planitfuture.
co.
uk.
And there's also senda.
org.
uk.
(40:32):
But thanks again for listeningand we look forward to seeing
you soon here on Stowe Talks.
So thanks for joining us on thisspecial collaborative episode
Tamsin Caine (40:51):
Hi, and I hope you enjoyed that episode of the
Smart Divorce Podcast.
If you would like to get intouch, please have a look in the
show notes for our details orgo onto the website, www.
smartdivorce.
co.
uk.
Also, if you are listening onapple podcasts or on spotify and
you wouldn't mind leaving us alovely five-star review, that
would be fantastic.
I know that lots of ourlisteners are finding this is
(41:12):
incredibly helpful in theirjourney through separation,
divorce and dissolving a civilpartnership.
Also, if you would like somefurther support, we do have a
Facebook group now.
It's called separation, divorceand dissolution uk.
Please do go on to facebook,search up the group and we'd be
(41:34):
delighted to have you join us.
The one thing I would say is doplease answer their membership
questions.
Okay, have a great day and takecare.
Hello and welcome to the Smart Divorce Podcast, a
very special episode today ofthe Smart Divorce Podcast x
Stowe Talks.
It's a collaboration with thefabulous Stowe Talks podcast and
we are going to be talking tothe amazing Rhiannon Gogh, who
(00:26):
is a SEND financial planningspecialist.
So, for all of those of you whohave SEND children or are part
of SEND families, we're hopingthat today will really give you
a helping hand and tell you howto deal with this situation when
(00:47):
it comes to divorce.
So we will jump straight in andover to Matthew Taylor.
Matt Taylor, the host of StoweTalks.
Matthew Taylor (01:01):
Hello and welcome to a very special Stowe
Talks x Smart Divorce collabpodcast.
A bit of a new venture for usas we're joined by an old friend
of the podcast, Tamsin Cainefrom Smart Divorce.
I'm Matthew Taylor, partner atStowe Family Law, and today I'm
joined for a special episodewith Tamsin and Rhiannon Gogh, a
(01:22):
special educational needs anddisability financial planner.
Rhiannon is the director ofPlanit Future and founder of
SENDA, the UK Alliance ofSpecial Educational Needs and
Disability Advisors.
So, Tamsin, welcome back.
Rhiannon, welcome to StoweTalks.
We're going to have a fantasticdiscussion today about all
things SEND and divorce.
But if we can start byintroducing yourself, Tamsin, if
(01:44):
you can reintroduce yourself toour listeners please.
Tamsin Caine (01:48):
Thank you, Matt.
Thank you for agreeing to dothis fantastic collab, and when
I heard about the amazing workRhiannon was doing.
I needed to get her on ourpodcast and to have a wise
solicitor like yourself, Matt,available to answer all the
legal questions that I haven'tgot a clue about.
(02:09):
I thought it was an opportunitywe couldn't miss.
So it all started because Iread Rhianna's book Planning
with Love, which is behind heron the screen, and I've got my
copy here.
So I am a Chartered FinancialPlanner and Resolution
Accredited Divorce Specialist.
I've been doing this work for awhole long time now and I work
(02:32):
with couples and individuals whoare splitting up to help them
to work on their financialsettlement.
I think that's probably aboutit for today.
That'll do.
Matthew Taylor (02:42):
That'll more than do.
Sorry, I'm still feelingslightly taken aback at the
description of me as being awise solicitor.
I mean, obviously you areaiming to get Lisa co-hosted in
this with you, but she's toobusy and too important to turn
up today, so you get the secondchoice.
Rhiannon, welcome to thepodcast.
Could you just tell us a bitabout yourself, then, please?
(03:05):
Thank you so much for having meand thank you for the invite.
I really appreciate it.
So my name is Rhiannon Gogh andI'm a Chartered Financial
Planner, a Fellow of thePersonal Finance Society.
I'm the founder of SENDA, whichis the UK Alliance of Special
Educational Needs and DisabilityAdvisors, and I'm also the
Director of my own SEND planningfirm, Planit Future Financial.
Well, thank you very much.
So we're going to talk allthings divorce and SEND today.
(03:27):
So I mean, let's just startwith the absolute basics.
I'm sure most people listeningto this will know.
But when we're talking aboutSEND.
What are we talking about?
What does that mean?
What's the sort of the range interms of conditions and the way
that it can affect children?
Rhiannon Gogh (03:44):
So SEND.
So Special Educational Needsand Disability there are some
interesting statistics thatusually leave an audience
staggered.
So I will start with those andthen I'll sort of broaden it out
from there.
So, looking at disability first, 11% of children have some kind
of disability and that'saccording to UK disability stats
.
That figure has doubled overthe last decade, so that is
(04:08):
quite staggering in the numberin increases of those with
disabilities in children.
So 0 to 18.
So that's disability.
Special educational needs.
So when we say send, we say orspecial educational needs, it's
describing some kind ofadditional support that they
will need in their educationalsetting and that percentage in
(04:30):
the UK is near 20%.
So 20%, one in five childrenhave a special educational need.
The biggest prevalence or thelargest area of prevalence in
those both of those areasactually is around social
communication, communication.
So as far as diagnoses areconfirmed, our concern it is a
confirmed diagnosis in autism.
Usually that is the prevalentcondition if you're looking at
(04:53):
conditions within those numbers
Matthew Taylor (04:55):
Okay, so maybe let's kind of start with, before
we move on to the impact thatdivorce has on children with
SEND.
What are in any kind of familyunit, whether separated, whether
still together, whetherdivorcing?
What are in any kind of familyunit, whether separated, whether
still together, whetherdivorcing?
What are the core challengesthat families face?
Rhiannon Gogh (05:10):
Well, there are probably five key challenges
that I've identified and that'sthrough research over the last
10 years and presenting tofamilies.
So I present at least once aweek to families.
Last week was Derby, this weekwill be Somerset.
So I go out and I'll presentvirtually or in person to
families of children like mine.
(05:30):
So my son has autism, he's 15and he's pre-verbal and there
are five key challenges that Iwould categorise from, I would
say, caring, so you might lookat the caring responsibilities
that I have within the familyand how they'll continue.
So the unique part of what aparent carer does, if you sort
(05:53):
of look at that versus someonethat cares for another relative,
is I'll be lifelong caring formy son and I'll probably die
before he does so.
The person that I'm caring forwill outlive me and that's
absolutely terrifying.
So that's a really uniqueconcern for parent carers.
There are financial resilienceconcerns.
(06:14):
So it's really expensive tobring up a disabled child
generally accepted to be threetimes as much to bring up a
disabled child as a non-disabledchild and my earnings are
impacted by the level of carethat I have to provide.
So my son was up last night.
He can't sleep on his own, soone of us will always have to
stay with him overnight and thatmeans that, amongst other
(06:36):
things, it's difficult to get towork in the morning and it's
difficult to hold down afull-time job.
So we've got caring issues.
We've got financial resilienceissues.
What I'm trying to do in myfinancial planning is also
provide for him.
So it's likely that he wouldn'tbe able to work in the future.
So many parents like me arethinking, oh my gosh, if this
(06:57):
young chap can't work, then howcan we make plans now to make
sure he's provided for in thefuture?
So I've picked out the mainchallenges there, Matt.
I hope that gives you a picture.
Matthew Taylor (07:09):
Yeah, that's really really helpful and
illuminating.
And I think that people whomaybe don't have personal
experience of caring for orknowing someone who has a
disability, such as your son,you know, you hear that and you
think, oh goodness, it's alwayswider than you think.
I think it's the reaction.
You kind of think, oh, it mustbe quite hard, but then you hear
(07:32):
about the impact and you don'tthink about the day-to-day, the
exhaustion and things and thatlong-term thing and it's really
you know, you said it quitematter-of-factly and I'm sure
that you don't really feel thatway but the thoughts of you know
how outliving your you knowyour, your child's kind of
outliving you when you're theircarer is is pretty scary thing.
(07:54):
Um, I mean Tamsin, just I guess,bring you in at this point just
talked about Rhiannon, talkedabout some of the financial
considerations there.
When you're doing your workwith clients dealing with
finances and financial planning,is this something that comes up
often?
How do you go about tacklingthese kind of very long-term
care issues when you've gotchildren who might live, you
know, you know a great manyyears?
How do you factor that intoyour work?
Tamsin Caine (08:15):
Yeah, absolutely.
It's coming up more and moreand I think, although the
statistics that Rhiannon justquoted flawed me a bit, because
that's one in 10 or one in fiveand then one in five kids, I
mean that's, that's.
That's not then surprising thatit comes up in my work quite a
(08:35):
lot.
You know, more and more I'mmeeting families who have
children who are impacted likethis, and I think one of the
biggest issues is that familiesdon't know what they're going to
need in the future.
So it's really difficult.
I mean, look, none of us knowwhat's going to happen in our
future, whether they're going tobe able to be housed in
(09:08):
supported housing or whetheryou're going to need to provide
some sort of accommodation forthem, all of these things.
The matter if you've got to buya house for your child, that's a
.
I mean, it's a big enoughconsideration for the majority
of us who don't have SENDchildren.
Thinking about paying a depositfor our children to help them
get on the housing ladder, butactually considering buying a
(09:31):
house for them in the future.
We're talking about a wholedifferent ballgame.
So there are massiveconsiderations.
And then, obviously, asRhiannon talked about, there are
considerations post the peoplethat we're planning those lives.
So they want to make sure thattheir children can be looked
after and cared for and havefinancial stability when they're
(09:53):
not here anymore.
And I think that's one of thebiggest things that some
families are concerned about,and it's certainly one of the
things that Rhiannon covers veryeloquently in her book, about
thinking about thoseconsiderations and then, if you
chuck divorce into the mix,we're in a whole, a whole other
ball game.
Matthew Taylor (10:11):
Yeah, aren't we just well before we move on to
that particular ball game.
I wonder if and I know this isan enormous area full of great
complexities, but for anyonewho's listening, who's you know,
maybe perhaps someone's onlyrecently had a diagnosis of SEND
in their child maybe listen tothis and starting to think about
these longer-term things.
Are there any kind of, andTamsin, any kind of quick wins,
(10:34):
easy things, easy-ish things Imean easy, you know, relative
anything that someone in thatposition might look at doing
when they're starting toconsider their financial future?
Rhiannon Gogh (10:43):
So I think the biggest area is really around
estate planning.
So when we're thinking aboutwhat happens when I'm no longer
here, the biggest win that aparent can undertake is to think
about a specialist trustsitting within their will.
So the step back from that isjust to affirm that and this
shocked me too that many parentsof children, like Tristan, my
(11:07):
son, don't understand that whenthey pass away, if you name your
son and your woman, if theperson doesn't have mental
capacity, it doesn'tautomatically happen that they
receive their inheritance.
So I was really shocked tolearn that, and many parents
that I talk to when I travelaround schools nationally don't
understand that.
And then, to follow on fromthat, they don't understand how
(11:30):
to protect their young personagainst financial vulnerability
and how to make sure that thevaluable means tested care,
support benefits that they havein place is also not jeopardised
by an inheritance.
And the key to all of that isby setting up a world with a
specialist trust within it.
So that is a wonderful andselfless place to start yeah,
(11:51):
that's really useful.
Tamsin anything you would addon there in terms of the early
first step see you nodding awaywith that, so presumably agree
with everything that we haven'tjust said
yeah yeah, absolutely, and it'sit.
you know, that really shocked melearning that fact.
And the other thing and I'msure we'll come on to it is
about child trust funds, and Iknow this is something that
(12:12):
Yannin's really passionate aboutletting people know about that
if you've got a child trust fundfor your child and they fit
into the SEND category that theycan't receive their child trust
fund.
And I was like, well, of coursethey can't.
But what like?
How do you put that rightbecause, to an extent, if you've
(12:33):
not made provisions in yourwill.
There is potentially things youcan do about it, but child trust
funds a horrendous thought, butin terms terms of quick wins, I
think and it's probably not aquick win but certainly thinking
about who you want to haveguardianship of over your child
(12:54):
if anything happens to you,Because you know we're all the
same.
None of us know what's going tohappen to us.
We don't know how long we'regoing to be here.
We hope we're going to be herefor a very long time and most
planners assume that our clientsare going to be here till
they're 100.
But you don't know what'saround the corner.
And if you've got a send childwho you know is going to need
(13:14):
someone to have guardianship forthe rest of their lives,
finding that right person earlyon is is really important
okay, so there's, there's acouple of really helpful things.
You know, big topics to look at, but helpful things for anyone
who's going through this process.
So let's move on and sort oftalk about why we're here today.
I guess, how does this all addin as an extra layer of
(13:35):
complexities when someone'slooking at divorce?
So, rhiannon, let's start withyou.
When you're speaking to people,speaking to parents, I mean
obviously the stress involved,life stressful, parenting
stressful, the extra layers ofstress, like you said, talking
about sleepless nights andthings that go on for years and
years and years, not just in theearly years of a child's life.
That's going to put a strain ona lot of marriages.
(13:57):
What do you see in terms ofpeople deciding to separate and
divorce?
Divorce is that something yousee a lot of in the sort of SEND
community?
I do, but I do see it a lot and there is an
extra element of stress, I think, when you have an autistic
child.
But it saddens me because it'sit's such a team sport bringing
(14:21):
up a disabled child and say thatin the wrong way.
But a perfect example would bemy husband.
You know I knew I was coming onthis podcast today.
So he says, right, well, I'llhave Tristan last night so that
you don't have to get up in themiddle of the night and walk
around and put the lights backon and such, and we plan very
much like that as a team.
So, whilst I do see it, it'svery hard and that caring for
(14:43):
somebody adds an extra dynamicand an extra complication.
On the plus side, I do workwith divorced parents who very
much still want to plan togetherbecause they're still planning
the future of the same child andit's a child that is not going
to flee the nest at 18 or 21.
It's a child that I mean I saysay with my husband it could be
(15:03):
a retirement for three, not aretirement for two.
We'll have christian with us,so that there isn't really in
some cases the option not tocollaborate with planning
because the caring bit doesn'treally go away just because the
divorce happens.
Tamsin Caine (15:18):
That makes sense
Matthew Taylor (15:20):
yeah, no, I've certainly seen that on the cases
that I've been involved with.
Is that, I'd say, sweepinggeneralisation.
But the level of collaborationhas to be high, should be higher
.
That's not exclusive.
I've certainly had a couple ofcases where there hasn't been
collaboration and then thatmakes the normal complexities of
co-parenting even harder.
So I mean, perhaps what weshould talk about is there's a
(15:41):
couple of different areas.
I'll do a very little bit oflaw, keep that to a minimum.
But when you're looking at aseparation with children,
obviously you've got the twoareas, the actual provision for
who the children spends timewith, um, and you've got the
sort of financial elements.
So how does SEND play into that?
If the courts got to getinvolved, the parents can't
agree.
Firstly, if parents can agreeabout their arrangements for
(16:04):
their children, then generallythat's fine and the court
doesn't want to be involved.
If you get to the point whereyou need some um intervention,
then the you know the the courthas got to consider the factors
in section one, the children act, which includes the physical,
emotional and educational needsof the child.
So these additional needs arereally important.
The court will absolutelyconsider that.
(16:26):
Obviously continuity andcertainty and routine can be a
bigger thing.
That's a big thing for mostkids, but it can be a much
bigger thing for, um, a childwith SEND.
So you know, that's somethingthat the court's going to try
and weigh in in terms of thetime that the child's going to
spend.
But there's still thepresumption is that both parents
will be involved in the child'slife, unless there's a very
good welfare reason not to.
(16:46):
So that's just very briefly interms of timing, but what we're
going to in time that childrencan spend with their parents.
What we'll obviously focustoday on a bit more is finances.
So how does that play in?
Well, there's divorce andthere's separations of a married
couple, and we'll talk aboutboth a little bit.
But in terms of divorce, again,the main statutes, the
matrimonial causes act, and thefirst consideration in the court
(17:07):
is the welfare of any minorchild.
So that's the first thing thatthe court's got to think about
is the welfare of any minorchild.
It's also got to consider, um,the responsibilities that each
party has in or continue to haveas part of their marriage for
the foreseeable future, so thatthat can include, yes, a child,
but a grown-up child.
You know, the obligations andthe responsibilities of caring
(17:29):
beyond them turning 18, and alsoincludes you know what that
impact has on people's abilityto earn.
So we'll come on to this in aminute.
I think you know that's a bigfactor.
If you're unmarried, you canrely on Schedule 1 of the
Children Act, which has got someslightly different provisions,
but again it's similar in thatthe court wants to look at the
(17:52):
physical, educational, emotionalneeds, any physical or mental
disability of the child and themanner in which the child was
being, or expected to be,educated or trained.
So maybe the schooling isdifferent.
There's additional, additionalschooling provisions.
So that's a really quick runthrough some of the statutory
considerations, but let's putthese into practice.
(18:13):
So, tamsin, maybe talk, couldyou talk about some of the
financial challenges that becomeparticularly acute on divorce?
Tamsin Caine (18:21):
yeah, absolutely so.
I'm working with a number offamilies who, um, who have SEND
children and sadly, um, they'renot in a position that the
lovely families that Rhianna'stalked about and that you've
talked about, Matt, are in,where where there's very much a
collaboration, where they wantto do things together.
(18:42):
Um, unfortunately, the familiesthat I'm working with are are
in a position where it's verymuch on on the parent that I'm
working with, um, and they'rethe one that's unable to work
due to caring responsibilities.
They don't see their umchildren in a position where
(19:03):
they're able to work.
In these cases they're eitheradult children or very nearly
adult children, so 16, 17 yearsold but with these we don't know
what they're going to beentitled to.
We don't know what they'regoing to need, because the
(19:25):
parents have never been in thisposition before and they're not
experienced in in what the needsare.
So you know they're looking athousing not only themselves but
their children for the remainderof their lives.
That's a huge considerationbecause when we're looking at
that's their starting point,when we're looking at divorce
and finances, where are thechildren going to live, where
(19:48):
are the parents going to live?
And we're obviously looking athousing at both parties, at
housing at both parties.
And this is probably one fearthat I'm going to throw back to
you, Matt, because, yeah, welook at children's housing, we
look at housing the parents butquite often actually moving a
(20:09):
child out of area so let's saythe area is not affordable for
the parents to both have housesin moving the child out of area,
out of their supportivecommunity, out of the area is
not affordable for the parentsto both have houses.
In moving the child out of area, out of their supportive
community, out of the area thatthey know, even often out of the
property they know, will causeimmense distress.
How does the law deal with that, Matt?
Matthew Taylor (20:30):
I think it's really tricky.
I think that the problem inthis area, from a sort of
financial perspective, is thatyou have factors moving in
different directions that arenot compatible, and the factors
being your housing needs areprobably higher and more
expensive, but your income islower.
So your mortgage capacity islower.
So you need more capital, andthat doesn't create more money.
(20:53):
You know it doesn't create.
You know you're not, you create, there are extra issues, but it
doesn't create more money tomeet those problems.
So, um, the court's got to havea view as to what's best for
the child.
Um, sometimes a movement outthe area might just be
unavoidable, but there are otherthings that can be done.
Um, so sometimes what the courtcan do is make what's called a
(21:14):
measure order.
Now, these used, these used tobe pretty popular and now far
less so in general.
But a measure order the case ofMr and Mrs Mesher is basically
an order which says that oneparty who is the primary care of
the children can stay in thefamily home until the children
turn 18, at which point theproperty is then sold, and it's
where there's not the abilityfor the parties to both rehouse
(21:36):
and for there to be suitableaccommodation for the children.
They're not that popularanymore because it tends to
involve the non-remaining partybeing locked out from receiving
their share of the asset forpotentially a prolonged period
of time.
But there are orders that stillhappen, or deferred orders for
sale.
If not doesn't have to be on 18, but to give a few more years,
(21:56):
that is something that can beapplied.
The flip side to that is thatthe measure order was sort of
done on the assumption thatchildren leave home at 18, which
back in the 90s, when that casewas decided, was a thing and
now isn't really a thing, andcertainly isn't a thing if
you've got an SEND child.
But those are options you mightlook to maintain that
continuity for a longer period.
(22:17):
I mean, rhiannon, how does that?
Is that something that youpotentially see when you're
doing your financial planningwith?
With people you might say, well, let's stay in the family home
a bit longer than mightotherwise be the case, just to
provide that continuity for thechild?
Rhiannon Gogh (22:30):
Yes, but I think you've got to bear in mind the
siblings, and planning with thefamily home is very complex
because with some SEND familiesthey will.
They will know very clearly thatthey would want, for example,
with me.
I want my autistic son to beable to stay in this house, but
then it conjures up the problemof okay, so what happens to the
inheritance of his siblings?
(22:51):
So if I'm getting like, forexample, if my family home is my
entire, the bulk of my estate,and I'm leaving that to one son,
how does the other son feelabout that and how do I as a
parent feel about that?
So, yes, planning with thefamily home, as you said, but
there are extra complicationswhen you're looking at making
provision for siblings as well,I think.
Matthew Taylor (23:25):
Yeah, that's certainly a complicating factor,
both siblings and the sort ofnon-resident parent.
If we work on the assumptionthat maybe there's going to be
more of a primary carer typemodel, even where there's
collaboration, I think that'spossibly more common.
What that also leads to from alegal perspective is we talked
about reduced income for people.
That gives extra scope forpotentially spousal maintenance
claims.
So income is a really trickypoint.
The ability for a carer tomaximise their income is pretty
limited.
They may be able to get somesort of state support in terms
of benefits.
(23:45):
So I mean, rhiannon, what sortof help is out there for people
in terms of benefits?
We're looking at carer'sallowance.
What else have we got?
Rhiannon Gogh (23:51):
What I would suggest is benefits are
notoriously complex, especiallyuniversal credit.
It's very much on acase-by-case basis, so I always
suggest that parents go to someindependent benefit help and
that could be something likeentitled to or turned to us and
just make sure they're gettingwhat they're entitled to.
(24:12):
The two big things they tend tomiss out on are council tax
deductions that's a huge thingand also carers allowance,
because the thresholds forcarers allowance have now
changed so you can earn more andstill receive carers allowance,
and that only changed in April,so that hasn't quite sunk in
yet
okay, so, yeah, so that'sreally useful.
but, yeah, both those websitesare incredibly, incredibly
helpful when putting puttinginformation together from a
(24:36):
divorce perspective, because wewould look at it and say, okay,
what's your earning capacitygoing to be going forward, what
are you entitled to?
Because some of the benefitsyou may not be entitled to while
you're living together underthe same roof and then perhaps
if one party was to move out atthe end following a divorce, the
entitlement might change.
So it's really important tolook at that and really try and
maximise that level of income,because if you're looking at a
(24:57):
situation where maybe the familyhome is being retained so one
party moves out, the family homehas to then house themselves.
Their ability to pay spousalmaintenance on top of any child
maintenance is really tricky.
It's really imperiled.
Tamsin, any other sort of thingsthat you look at with your
clients when they're coming toyou and trying to square this
really difficult circle of youknow, moving on to the next
(25:18):
stage, not necessarily wantingto have a new property, but
having to release some equity,you know what other?
Are there any other magictricks that you can conjure up
for them?
Tamsin Caine (25:27):
I wish it was down to a magic trick, because that
would make it.
I think we don't.
We all meet people who we'dreally like to create some magic
for and just be able to solvethings really easily.
But, like you said, we've gothousing to consider, we've got
probably low income or theinability to earn any income,
(25:52):
and then we've got actuallyconsidering the child's needs
now, but also in the future andinto, you know, through through
our clients, retirements it's.
It's a very difficult puzzle tosolve and I think you'll
probably be able to talk on thisa bit more.
(26:12):
But you know we look, we lookat is it possible to to provide
some assets?
You know there might not be thepossibility of spousal
maintenance from income for the,the non-resistant spouse, to be
able to afford.
Couldn't really separate thecapital assets differently to
(26:32):
maybe square that circle?
And how does a court deal withthat?
Matthew Taylor (26:37):
yeah, I mean the .
The starting point for divisionof assets is add up and divide
by two of matrimonial assets oranything that's a product of the
marriage, and then you departfrom equality for a number of
reasons.
So the most common to meetneeds and in cases like this,
your needs, your needs forcapital, are likely to be
heightened by virtue of the factyour income is let's assume
that the resident carer's incomeis going to be lower.
(26:58):
So it probably means you needmore equity to buy a property,
or you need a slush fund tosupport you or to use equity
from a house sale.
Perhaps you have to go intorented and you have to use it to
pay the rent.
So perhaps, or alternatively,you can be looking at a spousal
maintenance order, but insteadyou capitalize that order.
(27:19):
So instead of someone paying Xamount per month in spousal
maintenance, you can say, well,let's instead of doing that over
, instead of paying a thousandI'm going to do easy math a
thousand pounds a month forthree years.
Instead of you pay that everymonth and say, well, a thousand
pounds a month for three yearsis 36,000 pounds.
You know you pay that everymonth and say, well, £1,000 a
month for three years is £36,000, you pay that as an extra sum
to capitalise a maintenanceclaim.
So there are various ways ofdoing it.
(27:41):
I think that.
So certainly that wouldprobably be my expectation that
there's more likely to be adeparture from equality, unless
you're dealing with a sort ofsharing case where there are a
lot of assets to go around, andmost cases aren't either.
I think what is tricky and we'retalking about it a little bit
before about needs.
So needs is this hugelyimportant concept and commonly
(28:03):
when we're looking at needs ondivorce, it's needs for housing,
needs for income, needs forpension Fairly foreseeable,
fairly predictable.
But with cases such as these,things seem to me to be far less
predictable and we have to lookat needs over a longer term or
the initial two, three years.
We have to start.
Family lawyers love saying this.
Family lawyers love saying wedon't crystal ball gaze.
(28:25):
I think in these cases we kindof have to crystal ball gaze.
So how do you approach that,rhiannon, the need to look in
the short, medium and long term?
Rhiannon Gogh (28:36):
That's very difficult, to be honest, when
you're talking to parents.
Um, some parents struggle tothink beyond friday, quite
frankly, let alone into thelong-term future.
My advice, when I'm talking toabout, first of all, I I don't
shy away from asking questionsabout that.
Um, many of the families that Iwork with want to talk about
(28:56):
their children and they want tospend time talking
optimistically about the futureof their child as well.
So what I will often ask is Iwill ask around long-term vision
about whether they're likely tolive independently, whether
they're likely to earn and work,what the vision is for the
long-term future.
And I'll usually preface thequestion by saying I know it's
(29:17):
hard, but I know it's difficult,but can you imagine them living
it?
I know it's difficult, but canyou imagine them working?
So I will always ask thequestion.
And then the second thing Iwould say is sometimes I will
speak to parents and they'll sayI just don't know.
Is the honest answer?
I really have no idea.
And in that scenario I wouldsay which is probably not the
answer you want to hear that is,to plan flexibly, so to build
(29:41):
in.
Matthew Taylor (29:42):
We hate flexible .
Come on, this is speaking to alawyer.
Here we deal with certainty andnothing else.
Rhiannon Gogh (29:51):
Well, I don't.
So I will build in the abilityfor one trust to change to
another, the ability to add infuture trustees, the ability to
have a backup guardian, all ofthose exciting flexibilities.
I'm sorry, that's how I tend toplan.
Matthew Taylor (30:05):
No, it's very, it's very sensible.
It slightly gives me a migraineat the thought if we like
things on one sheet of paper andmake things nice and clear.
But life doesn't work like thatIn the easiest, you know the
easiest in quotes, clear.
But life doesn't work like thatin the easiest, you know, the
easiest in quotes um divorce.
Life doesn't work like that.
So obviously in cases such asthis the flexibility is really
important.
Um Tamsin, you know, do you doyou?
(30:27):
Can you kind of recognize thatthat needs flexibility with your
clients?
Tamsin Caine (30:32):
yes, but I also spend my life working with
lawyers who need certainty.
Blame the lawyers we're awfulpeople.
Absolutely dreadful people.
I guess when we're working indivorce we need a little bit
more certainty.
We obviously want to giveflexibility to the family, but
(31:01):
with a little bit more certainty.
So we want to be thinking aboutwhat are the needs likely to be
, bigger needs likely to be forthe um send children?
How are we going to deal withthose bigger needs with both
parents?
Can we put anything into placeif something changes that we
can't currently anticipate?
So is the possibility of well,can we agree up front that if
(31:22):
there's a big need, financialneeds in the future that we pay
for that between us, that weshare bigger costs that we?
How are we going to work outwho pays what for these bigger
things?
Because it it can't all fallonto the resident spouse.
You know, if there's a bigchange needs to be made to the
(31:45):
property, for example because ofneeds of the child, that can't
all fall onto the residentspouse.
So how are we going to dealwith those in the future?
And if we can think about thosesort of things that might be
required in the future, we mightbe able to think flexibly
enough for the family's planningbut sort of precise enough for
(32:07):
the lawyers to be able to putsomething down in paper and in
order to keep them happy as wellyeah, I think that's all very
sensible stuff.
Matthew Taylor (32:15):
So for anyone listening to this and thinking,
oh, that's giving me some ideasor stuff that I haven't thought
about, I need to think about.
You know that I guess what'sthe?
And maybe thinking how do I goahead I mean, I'm going to cut
to chase and say the answer isto speak to you too.
Um, so what?
What's your role?
When do you maybe explain a bitabout how you work with parents
and how you work with families,and what does it actually look
(32:38):
like being a financial plannerworking with people in this
situation?
Rhiannon Gogh (32:42):
So many parents will come to me before they see
their solicitor and they'll cometo me because they don't really
understand the way forward.
They might have had aconversation amongst other
parents, they might have aninkling they have to do
something, but they're not surewhat they have to do.
So they will come to me almostlike a coordinator, so I'll be
able to talk to them about theprotections that we're looking
to put in place.
That's estate planning,providing care, funding for the
(33:06):
future and ultimately forming aspecial needs plan.
So that is estate planning,savings planning, care planning
and then not forgetting theparents planning too.
So planning for the parentsit's almost like a buy one, get
one free when you're a specialneeds planner because you have
an extra person to plan for.
So that's the role that I'llplay.
So they'll come to me, we'lltalk about the different options
and then we'll go together.
Usually I will refer to aspecialist solicitor to put in
(33:28):
place specialist trusts and thenI will, once that's done, I
will start care funding andputting together a picture of
that child's life and thenslotting together the funding
that sits behind that, makingsure that grants and benefits
are applied for and secured andmaking sure that all the
planning that the parents havein place is safely accessible
(33:50):
and that it doesn't impact thatfuture means tested care.
That's so incredibly important.
So that is my role.
And then I work within Sender.
So, in answer to your question,how does anybody get involved
in this or how do they find moreinformation?
Well, sender is a collaborationbetween financial planners and
legal advisors and charities.
So I work with the Mencap TrustCo.
(34:11):
I'll be working with specialistEHC solicitors and Wills and
Trust solicitors, all as a team.
And that's when special needsplanning is really the best,
when it's a team and we're kindof going back and forth between
ourselves and making sure we'vegot the right plan in place.
Matthew Taylor (34:27):
Fabulous and Tamsin anything that you can add
to that and how you know whatis in it for parents to start
working with a financial planner.
Tamsin Caine (34:43):
Then, if we tip in divorce into the midst of all
that that Rhiannon has just said, we complicate it even more.
With divorce.
It's always vitally importantto have a divorce team.
We've talked about this on thepodcast before.
But you definitely need um, afinancial expert, you need a
legal expert.
You preferably need anemotional support expert as well
, so therapist and divorce coachsomebody who can give you that
(35:05):
emotional support so that you'renot spending your hard-earned
cash crying on me on thatbecause we're not qualified to
deal with you with those thingsas well as somebody else might
be.
So we're adding the divorceinto the mix.
Quite often people come to mebefore they've seen the
solicitor.
Quite often they come via thesolicitor.
(35:26):
But we're going to help youwork out the money bit and we're
going to hold your hand throughthe process, and there will be,
if you are a SEND family.
There will be other things thatyou need to have in place and
that you need to do, and that'swhere we'd refer to Rhiannon if
you need to, but also would workon working with the Wilson
(35:51):
Trust listeners to make sureeverything's sorted out so that
once you come out the other side, everything's sorted.
But we've just thrown so muchstuff at you and to deal with
all of those things mean mostpeople suffer overwhelm when
they're going through divorce asit is and feel like it's a
full-time job.
So we're not going to do allthis.
(36:12):
Rome wasn't built in a day.
It's very slow, very careful,at your pace, you know.
No pressure, no rush.
You don't have to.
Just because your relationshipis broken down today, it doesn't
all need to be done tomorrow.
It needs to be at your paceyeah, I think that's really
helpful advice.
Matthew Taylor (36:31):
It can seem so overwhelming, and particularly
if you've got the extracomplexities of what can be a
very difficult home life andyour concerns about your child
and trying to manage theireducation and and all those
things that come with it on topof all the normal stresses, it's
um, it's a huge amount, but, um, well, that's been enormously
helpful.
Um, what we, as you know,tamzin, but what we always like
(36:51):
to do on these podcasts is leavepeople with a little top tip at
the end of you know, a littletakeaway message.
So I wonder if you could eachwith a little top tip at the end
of you know, a little takeawaymessage.
So I wonder if you could eachgive me your top tip for any
anyone who is, uh, an SENDfamily going through a divorce
where they're just about tostart or part way through the
process.
What's your each of your kind oftop tip is how to deal with
that
Rhiannon Gogh (37:11):
So my top tip is really just to be aware of the
foreseeable harms that exist forSEND families that don't exist
for other families, and thereare two big ones.
So I'm going to give you adouble top tip because that's
both really important.
Matthew Taylor (37:24):
Buy one, get one free.
Rhiannon Gogh (37:26):
Buy one, get one free.
So there is inheritance tax,estate planning, wills and
trusts.
So doing nothing as an SENDparent in the area of estate
planning is rarely a good thing.
So we always advise seeing aspecialist wills and trust
solicitor to get the estateplanning ticked and safe.
(37:46):
But on the other side, sothere's like two bookends of
special needs planning and thatis one side, which is estate
planning.
The other, as Tamsin rightlysaid, please be careful when
you're saving for a young personwith SEND.
Quite often families don'trealize that when the child gets
to 18, if they don't havemental capacity, they will not
be able to access their savings.
(38:06):
They may be very vulnerable ifthey could access it and it will
likely impact their meanstested benefits, care, support
when they get to that age.
Parents are very often unawareof that.
Perfect, I'm going to do a buyone, get one free as well.
Love it.
Tamsin Caine (38:26):
So my f irst tip is that dealing with son
children is not just a parentalissue.
It's an issue for the entirefamily is not just a parental
issue, it's an issue for theentire family.
So if you've got parents,brothers, sisters, uncles,
aunties who are thinking ofleaving money to your child, the
exact same thing applies toinheritances from them as it did
(38:50):
with inheritances from theparents.
So speak to anybody you thinkmight be likely to be leaving
money to your child and explainto them about the trust that
you've set up, all the work thatyou're doing to set trust up
with specialists and make surethat they're going to be able to
access those inheritances aswell and that those are set up
(39:10):
properly.
So that's my first top tip.
My second one is please buyRhiannon's book, because it's
brilliant.
Um, I've sent it out to atleast six clients already.
It's it will be on the list togo to anybody that I ever meet
who's got um, who's got somechild in their family?
Um, whether it's media or theirfriendship group or whatever,
(39:32):
it's flipping brilliant, thank,you one last time for a plug for
the book ryan.
Matthew Taylor (39:38):
So the book is called.
And where can it?
Where can people get itavailable at all good bookshops?
Let's do a proper, proper plugall good bookshops.
Rhiannon Gogh (39:45):
Yes, Planning with love by Rhiannon Gogh, all
good bookshops
Matthew Taylor (39:49):
fabulous Well, thank you both.
That was really illuminatingand hopefully really useful for
people.
So, um, that's it for thispodcast.
Thanks so much for listening.
If you'd like to find out moreabout Stowe Talks, visit
stowetalks.
co.
uk and please like, rate, shareand review this podcast where
you can.
If you'd like more informationon the brilliant work that
Tamsin does, head tosmartdivorce.
(40:10):
co.
uk for all the brilliant stuffon her website and her Smart
Divorce podcast, and for all thebrilliant stuff on her website
and her Smart Divorce podcast.
And to find out more aboutRhiannon's work, head to
planitfuture.
co.
uk.
And there's also senda.
org.
uk.
(40:32):
But thanks again for listeningand we look forward to seeing
you soon here on Stowe Talks.
So thanks for joining us on thisspecial collaborative episode
Tamsin Caine (40:51):
Hi, and I hope you enjoyed that episode of the
Smart Divorce Podcast.
If you would like to get intouch, please have a look in the
show notes for our details orgo onto the website, www.
smartdivorce.
co.
uk.
Also, if you are listening onapple podcasts or on spotify and
you wouldn't mind leaving us alovely five-star review, that
would be fantastic.
I know that lots of ourlisteners are finding this is
(41:12):
incredibly helpful in theirjourney through separation,
divorce and dissolving a civilpartnership.
Also, if you would like somefurther support, we do have a
Facebook group now.
It's called separation, divorceand dissolution uk.
Please do go on to facebook,search up the group and we'd be
(41:34):
delighted to have you join us.
The one thing I would say is doplease answer their membership
questions.
Okay, have a great day and takecare.
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